From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 2:16:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE7937BD5E; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.geekhouse.net [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10040; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA02237; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200006250916.CAA02237@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000619160518.F17420@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: kblob discussion. Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , Jonathan Lemon Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19-Jun-00 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > If it's flexible enough then you won't need to rip out my API, you'll > find it obnoxiously easy to create compatibility shims for it. Egads! This style of thinking leads to complicated code later on in life. Just read locore.s on the i386 and note how we have to maintain 3 (4?) different types of stacks when we start the kernel. For a second example, look at all the ugly hacks we have to do in the loader to handle disk drives via the BIOS on PC's due to have to remain backwards compatible. Adding a limited API that you _expect_ to be replaced in the future by a more generic API feels very wrong. Now, if your feeling is that this more generic API is never going to come along, then having a specific API is better than having none. However, forcing a situation in which we will be forced to maintain backwards compatibility may not be a wise move from a maintenance perspective. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 3:35: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FDF37B636; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 03:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9C1132.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.50]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26163; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:34:02 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67649AC27; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:34:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3E8B814AB2; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:34:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:34:33 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: wilko@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Boris Popov , "Dmitry S. Sivachenko" , freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gettext Message-ID: <20000625123433.A3296@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000623195641.C16231@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624183906.B2843@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624204402.A704@freebie.wbnet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000624204402.A704@freebie.wbnet>; from wkb@chello.nl on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 08:44:02PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Wilko Bulte (wkb@chello.nl): > difficult for Joe/Jane-average-committer. An idea like VMS uses comes to mind: > IOERR-F-NOSUCHDEV: . The IOERR-thingy (I just > invented this example) will be the same regardless of any i18n translated > error text. that is fine :) But what about something like: ENOENT: No such file or directory ... Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 8:32:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB8737BAF4 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 136ENw-000CCA-00; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:31:48 +0200 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:31:48 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Alexander Langer Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettext Message-ID: <20000625173148.N36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000623195641.C16231@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624183906.B2843@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624204402.A704@freebie.wbnet> <20000625123433.A3296@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000625123433.A3296@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:34:33PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 25, 2000, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Wilko Bulte (wkb@chello.nl): > > > difficult for Joe/Jane-average-committer. An idea like VMS uses comes to mind: > > IOERR-F-NOSUCHDEV: . The IOERR-thingy (I just > > invented this example) will be the same regardless of any i18n translated > > error text. > > that is fine :) > > But what about something like: > ENOENT: No such file or directory ... The trouble with using straight errno's is that they can mean slightly different things based upon which program/syscall made it. I'm not a VMS person, but the way VMS (and Cisco, and I am a cisco person) reports errors makes it very easy to take a flat text syslog output, and parse the error lines ..) 2c, adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 9:51:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07F237B76D; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16550; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:51:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAY_aysG; Sun Jun 25 09:51:39 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07637; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:51:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006251651.JAA07637@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: gettext To: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:51:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bp@butya.kz (Boris Popov), dima@Chg.RU (Dmitry S. Sivachenko), freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000624183906.B2843@cichlids.cichlids.com> from "Alexander Langer" at Jun 24, 2000 06:39:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > This is not correct. Not everybody knows English well, these are > > mostly newbies and having translated docs and program messages is a real > > help for them. > > Yes. But while I prefer German menus in GUI-programs, for example, I > really dislike, that the same LANG var affects those stuff. > > Imagine a bug-report: How do _you_ want to understand an error message > in German?? I have to agree with this. One of the biggest mistakes that Whistle made was to translate log messages from various programs. When people request support, it is nearly impossible to support them based on the log file contents. I can read most Spanish, German, French, Italian, Latin, some Greek, some Swahili, some Russian, etc., but unless it's in Kana, I can't read Japanese at all. Guess where the most non-English support situations occur? IBMs AIX was given as an example; AIX always has an error message number associated with error messages. At the very least, you can look up the number in an English message catalog, and see what is happening that way. One thing that we've adopted at Whistle is to use a machine-readable logging format. Not all code uses this, but for the code that does, one can tell the internal state of any automaton or other program just by looking at the log files. Ideally, we will eventually modify syslogd to maintain state information as messages get logged. Obviously, it's possible to translate machine readable logs on viewing, rather than in the log files themselves. And that's what you really want to have happen. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 13:30:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B8437B535; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA272508; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:30:11 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200006240653.AAA02110@harmony.village.org> References: <20000621221636.A4137@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <200006240653.AAA02110@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:30:41 -0400 To: Warner Losh From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nik Clayton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:53 AM -0600 6/24/00, Warner Losh wrote: >Garance A Drosihn writes: >: Given that it is like pulling teeth to get anyone to add an >: update to our current version of lpr, I suppose this is a >: good thing. I have written multiple updates to freebsd's >: lpr over the past year and a half, and I think I am averaging >: about six months between the time I send in a patch and the >: time it is applied. > >I'm partially to blame for that. I find lpr/lpd hard to audit >and changes to it hard to ensure verify. This is more a >reflection of lpr/lpd and not on Garance. Well, I'm not looking to assign blame. I'm just expressing frustration with "the way things are" wrt lpr. By that I mean that freebsd's lpd/lpr is pretty important to me, as I run it on a few hundred hosts with nearly two hundred print queues funneling jobs to five or six print servers. For the things I use it for, my testing is pretty extensive --- except for the "tiny little" caveat that almost all of my hosts are NOT running freebsd... (they are aix, solaris, irix) At the same time that it's pretty important to me, it's obvious that it isn't quite as important to most freebsd users. That's no one's "fault", that's "just the way it is". And given how much is happening in freebsd right now (with BSDI code merger, SMP developments, etc), it's hard to argue that committers should drop what they are doing for some area of the system which is not in that mainstream of activity. This is particularly true given that the faster any updates are applied, the faster my next set of updates will appear. Similarly, I would agitate to become a committer just for lpr and friends, but I don't work enough with *freebsd* to feel comfortable with that. Sometime soon I should have more free time, but right now I simply can not keep up with 'current', and it seems that is what I should be doing if I want to have my fingers in the middle of the system. That isn't anyone's fault either, it's "just the way it is". Perhaps moving lpr into a port would help, as well as making it easier for people to use lprNG if they wanted to. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 21:36:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B395037B956 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:36:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA66441 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:36:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA16059 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: ftp -o xxx Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:24 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG fetch supports using -o to secify the output filename. However, ftp doesn't. Since fetch won't work with socks, I've been using ftp for all my fetching needs with ports for the past several years. Now, I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 25 21:50:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA85B37B69A; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA66490; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:50:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA16149; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:48:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006260448.WAA16149@harmony.village.org> To: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nik Clayton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:30:41 EDT." References: <20000621221636.A4137@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <200006240653.AAA02110@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:48:53 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Garance A Drosihn writes: : Similarly, I would agitate to become a committer just for : lpr and friends, but I don't work enough with *freebsd* to : feel comfortable with that. Sometime soon I should have : more free time, but right now I simply can not keep up with : 'current', and it seems that is what I should be doing if : I want to have my fingers in the middle of the system. That : isn't anyone's fault either, it's "just the way it is". : : Perhaps moving lpr into a port would help, as well as making : it easier for people to use lprNG if they wanted to. I'm not sure who our lpr/lpd committer is, but I know that people have gotten their commit privs for less.... I'd be happy to sponsor you. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 1:30:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39237BA78 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00315; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:30:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Jun 2000 10:30:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:24 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > fetch supports using -o to secify the output filename. However, ftp > doesn't. Since fetch won't work with socks, I've been using ftp for > all my fetching needs with ports for the past several years. Now, > I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using > -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? Wouldn't it be better to add socks support to fetch(1)? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 2: 1:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EDA37BC22; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA88185; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:25:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA81481; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:17:16 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:17:13 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , Nik Clayton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000625081712.A79955@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19530.961753945@localhost> <200006231721.KAA25921@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006231721.KAA25921@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 05:21:08PM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 05:21:08PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > He said GNU and Artistic licences. > > > ^^^ > > > I took that to mean no choice. > > > > No, you have a choice of either one. You can take LPRng under > > the GPL or you can take it under the Artistic license. It is > > dual-licensed. We would, of course, choose the artistic license. > > So you would be OK with this, if the purely GPL NLS code (gettext) > was removed from LPRng, right? > > I think the GPL-only portions of the code are what he's objecting to, > not the Artistic Licensed code. I brought this up with Patrick. He said that this used to be an issue with an earlier version of LPRng, but that he becamse aware of exactly this issue, and more recent versions don't have the GNU code in. I haven't looked at the source myself, but I've no reason to disbelieve that. I'm currently stuck at LA airport, which is not conducive to checking this out. If Patrick hasn't covered this himself by the time I'm back and non-lagged I'll do so. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 2:37:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0FF37BBD2 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm006-013.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.80.253]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA23402 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:37:09 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DF8FF195D; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:35:25 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, I was just a few minutes ago talking with some of my colleagues about disabling inetd completely in a default install. What are people's opinions about doing this? IMHO there is nothing in inetd that is absolutely essential when someone installs FreeBSD on a virgin system. Let's take a few things as examples. Telnet is an insecure protocol and has been replaced for the most part by SSH. Then there's FTP. How many people are going to run FTP servers on their machines by default? Now talk daemon, auth server (for ident, typically used with IRC), and finger. Not everyone really needs these. Our inetd.conf should reflect what would be NEEDED by a typical installation by default. Some might say "why fix something that ain't broke?". Well, I think that it's fairly well-known that holes can be exploited through inetd. Proactive security is better than leaving possible holes open by default, IMO. Administrators who know what they're doing can open up each hole as they need to. Could someone give me a reason why anything invoked by our current inetd.conf is needed across all installed systems by default? If not, then inetd itself should be disabled by default. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 2:46:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAEF37BBAB for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136VTE-000BEn-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:46:24 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:17:13 GMT." <20000625081712.A79955@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:46:23 +0200 Message-ID: <43200.962012783@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Could someone just enumerate the advantages of importing LPRng? It seems to be a package which can me made to do everything FreeBSD's lpr can do, but it does not seem to be a superset of FreeBSD's lpr. This means that there is a cost associated with bringing it in as a replacement. Are we sure that the cost is justified? Is it so much better than the existing lpr that having it available as a port is "not enough"? I have no stsrong opinion one way or the other, but I do get the feeling that this thread has skipped an important issue, instead focusing on licensing. This looks like a little cart before horse. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 2:52: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BB037B597 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 136VYQ-000D8X-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:51:46 +0200 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:51:46 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Will Andrews Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 05:35:25AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > Hi all, > > I was just a few minutes ago talking with some of my colleagues about > disabling inetd completely in a default install. > > What are people's opinions about doing this? IMHO there is nothing in > inetd that is absolutely essential when someone installs FreeBSD on a > virgin system. Let's take a few things as examples. Telnet is an > insecure protocol and has been replaced for the most part by SSH. Then > there's FTP. How many people are going to run FTP servers on their > machines by default? Now talk daemon, auth server (for ident, typically > used with IRC), and finger. Not everyone really needs these. > > Our inetd.conf should reflect what would be NEEDED by a typical > installation by default. > > Some might say "why fix something that ain't broke?". Well, I think > that it's fairly well-known that holes can be exploited through inetd. > Proactive security is better than leaving possible holes open by > default, IMO. Administrators who know what they're doing can open up > each hole as they need to. > > Could someone give me a reason why anything invoked by our current > inetd.conf is needed across all installed systems by default? If not, > then inetd itself should be disabled by default. Do you have a neat way of getting ssh to work out of the box with a non-US crypto install? If there is a neat way, then sure, enable sshd by default and disable inetd. Until then I think inetd+telnet should be the only thing enabled on the box. If I remember right, the telnet port isn't insecure by itself, only open telnet connections. So there really isn't anything to be said for killing telnet for 'out of the box security' - if people use telnet rather than ssh, they're going to enable it anyway. Other than that, I am happy with killing inetd or most (read all bar telnet) of its services at install. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 2:58:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9EE37B538 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA17532; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id CAA80990; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:58:09 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626025809.G14265@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <17253.961705123@localhost> <200006222046.e5MKkKn07168@cwsys.cwsent.com> <20000622235602.A1088@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <39545167.AE635015@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39545167.AE635015@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 12:12:55AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 12:12:55AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Yes, it is wrong. If it must be linked with GNU gettext, no matter > what their license is, the resulting executable has been infected > with the GPL virus. Binutils and GCC are the same. We just configure them with no NLS support and then gettext is not needed. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3: 3:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE1F37BBFA; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136U91-0002pP-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:21:27 +0200 Received: from p3e9d38d6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.157.56.214] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136U8v-0008PP-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:21:22 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FFE4AC27; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:21:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 81B0714AB2; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:21:25 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Adrian Chadd Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gettext Message-ID: <20000626102125.B3549@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000623195641.C16231@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624183906.B2843@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624204402.A704@freebie.wbnet> <20000625123433.A3296@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000625173148.N36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000625173148.N36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk>; from adrian@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 05:31:48PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Adrian Chadd (adrian@FreeBSD.ORG): > person, but the way VMS (and Cisco, and I am a cisco person) reports > errors makes it very easy to take a flat text syslog output, and parse > the error lines ..) Most error-outputs use strerror(3). So maybe add these to strerror(3)? Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3: 8:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5708437B538 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 136VoX-000DAz-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:08:25 +0200 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:08:25 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Alexander Langer Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gettext Message-ID: <20000626120825.T36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000623195641.C16231@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624183906.B2843@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000624204402.A704@freebie.wbnet> <20000625123433.A3296@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000625173148.N36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626102125.B3549@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626102125.B3549@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:21:25AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Adrian Chadd (adrian@FreeBSD.ORG): > > > person, but the way VMS (and Cisco, and I am a cisco person) reports > > errors makes it very easy to take a flat text syslog output, and parse > > the error lines ..) > > Most error-outputs use strerror(3). > > So maybe add these to strerror(3)? Yes, but you can't guarantee that ENOENT is the same between two given applications. And then, applications can use perror() or errx() or the like to return their own errors, which you'd have to make multi-lingual, and it becomes a nightmare. You could modify strerror() to give multi-lingual errno error strings, but as to each application, who knows .. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3:10:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5186A37BC91 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:10:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136UEV-0002qL-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:27:07 +0200 Received: from p3e9d38d6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.157.56.214] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136UEQ-0008Vk-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:27:02 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901B5AC27; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:27:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BDF3414AB2; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:25:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:25:47 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Message-ID: <20000626102547.C3549@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 10:34:24PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Warner Losh (imp@village.org): > I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using > -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? How would be hard adding socks-support to fetch? :) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3:15:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D98837BB79 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136VvU-000BTh-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:36 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Will Andrews Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:35:25 -0400." <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:36 +0200 Message-ID: <44124.962014536@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:35:25 -0400, Will Andrews wrote: > How many people are going to run FTP servers on their machines by > default? Now talk daemon, auth server (for ident, typically used with > IRC), and finger. Not everyone really needs these. Once you've addressed Adrian Chadd's concerns, I'd suggest that you send Jordan patches which * Turn inetd_enable OFF by default in /etc/defaults/rc.conf. * Possibly override this in /etc/rc.conf should something like ftpd be selected and enabled at install time. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3:15:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5D837BC3D; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA17630; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA96826; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:15:48 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Adrian Chadd Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626031547.J14265@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk>; from adrian@freebsd.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:51:46AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:51:46AM +0200, Adrian Chadd wrote: > If I remember right, the telnet port isn't insecure by itself, only > open telnet connections. So there really isn't anything to be said > for killing telnet for 'out of the box security' - if people use > telnet rather than ssh, they're going to enable it anyway. I cannot quite parse what you are saying. What does speaking about a port's security mean? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3:25:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D9B37BC7B; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 136W4u-000DCb-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:25:20 +0200 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:25:20 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: David O'Brien Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626122520.U36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626031547.J14265@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626031547.J14265@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@freebsd.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:15:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:51:46AM +0200, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > If I remember right, the telnet port isn't insecure by itself, only > > open telnet connections. So there really isn't anything to be said > > for killing telnet for 'out of the box security' - if people use > > telnet rather than ssh, they're going to enable it anyway. > > I cannot quite parse what you are saying. What does speaking about a > port's security mean? The telnet service open by itself poses no security risk. The telnet service *in use* is a security risk. I've had some feedback from people saying "why not use the internat crypto dist?" .. thats all nice and good if I'm installing a box that has internet connectivity. however, not all boxes have internet connectivity. Yes, I could toast a CDROM with the added internat crypto distribution and packages to make things work for us non-US people, but its a pain in the ass and sometimes I just want to get the machines -going- and then do remote work later. As to the people saying "You can just enable it after boot!" .. well, you could disable sshd and enable it after boot ... :-) I could validly argue that enabling remote access of any kind by default when non-security- conscious people are installing FreeBSD is a security risk. But then I'd be getting pedantic. :) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 3:45:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE9D37B61D; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.34] (helo=mx2.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136WBo-0003Tf-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:28 +0200 Received: from p3e9d38d6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.157.56.214] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136WBm-0002qa-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:27 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0666AC27; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1976D14AB2; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:30 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: David O'Brien Cc: Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626123230.C7800@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626031547.J14265@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000626031547.J14265@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:15:48AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake David O'Brien (obrien@FreeBSD.ORG): > > If I remember right, the telnet port isn't insecure by itself, only > > open telnet connections. So there really isn't anything to be said > > for killing telnet for 'out of the box security' - if people use > > telnet rather than ssh, they're going to enable it anyway. > I cannot quite parse what you are saying. What does speaking about a > port's security mean? I think he means, that not inetd/telnet itself is the problem, e.g. because of a buffer overflow, but the unencrypted transfer of the passwords through the open connection is. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 4: 7:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C9237B9C7 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.34] (helo=mx2.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136VyQ-0003QK-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:18:38 +0200 Received: from p3e9d38d6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.157.56.214] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136VyO-0002eI-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:18:36 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CEA8AC27; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A480C14AB2; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:18:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:18:41 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Message-ID: <20000626121841.A8286@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <20000626102547.C3549@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000626102547.C3549@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:25:47AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Alexander Langer (alex@big.endian.de): > > I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using > > -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? > How would be hard adding socks-support to fetch? :) reorder words: How hard would be ... :) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 8:48:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B77A37B8D3; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21557; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:48:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39577BB4.4168DF7F@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:50:12 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <17253.961705123@localhost> <200006222046.e5MKkKn07168@cwsys.cwsent.com> <20000622235602.A1088@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <39545167.AE635015@softweyr.com> <20000626025809.G14265@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 12:12:55AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Yes, it is wrong. If it must be linked with GNU gettext, no matter > > what their license is, the resulting executable has been infected > > with the GPL virus. > > Binutils and GCC are the same. We just configure them with no NLS > support and then gettext is not needed. Then LPRng sans NLS support should not be a problem to import, if it provides a suitable level of features. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 8:49:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22FEE37B8ED for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:49:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21565; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:49:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39577BFD.3C3ECB54@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:51:25 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <43200.962012783@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > Could someone just enumerate the advantages of importing LPRng? It > seems to be a package which can me made to do everything FreeBSD's lpr > can do, but it does not seem to be a superset of FreeBSD's lpr. This > means that there is a cost associated with bringing it in as a > replacement. > > Are we sure that the cost is justified? Is it so much better than the > existing lpr that having it available as a port is "not enough"? > > I have no stsrong opinion one way or the other, but I do get the feeling > that this thread has skipped an important issue, instead focusing on > licensing. This looks like a little cart before horse. I think the primary reason given is that LPRng is under active maintenance, and the existing BSD lpr is not. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:15:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E047D37BA47 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA68712; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:15:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA19406; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:14:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006261614.KAA19406@harmony.village.org> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "26 Jun 2000 10:30:01 +0200." References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:14:01 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: : Warner Losh writes: : > fetch supports using -o to secify the output filename. However, ftp : > doesn't. Since fetch won't work with socks, I've been using ftp for : > all my fetching needs with ports for the past several years. Now, : > I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using : > -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? : : Wouldn't it be better to add socks support to fetch(1)? It would be better, maybe, but harder. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:16: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6911A37BF31 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:15:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09868; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:15:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18734; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:15:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:15:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006261615.KAA18734@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Will Andrews Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was just a few minutes ago talking with some of my colleagues about > disabling inetd completely in a default install. > > What are people's opinions about doing this? I think it's a bad idea, and assumes that the 'default' installation is a box that's running 24/7 connected directly to the internet. I only have one box that is 'vulnerable' to the internet, and it's my firewall. All the other boxes are inside the firewall, and can (and do) run the other daemons since they are most useful, *especially* for configuring the box. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:42:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peace.mahoroba.org (peace.calm.imasy.or.jp [202.227.26.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DA837BA57 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:42:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:0PuKtAVMu8s9nnT68/wsAUfhERUStvviDG6FABcN3t/WTC0uUjQexcb6Ss6STR0V@localhost [::1]) (authenticated) by peace.mahoroba.org (8.10.2/3.7W-peace) with ESMTP id e5QGek431735; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:40:46 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:40:43 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> To: imp@village.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx From: Hajimu UMEMOTO (=?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCR19LXBsoQiAbJEJIJRsoQg==?=) In-Reply-To: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.95b38 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjJWMWMbKEIp?= X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:24 -0600 >>>>> Warner Losh said: imp> fetch supports using -o to secify the output filename. However, ftp imp> doesn't. Since fetch won't work with socks, I've been using ftp for imp> all my fetching needs with ports for the past several years. Now, imp> I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using imp> -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? `runsocks fetch' may be your friend. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:44: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957AB37BA40 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:44:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 136byz-0008H6-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:43:37 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Wes Peters Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:51:25 CST." <39577BFD.3C3ECB54@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:43:37 +0200 Message-ID: <31805.962037817@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:51:25 CST, Wes Peters wrote: > I think the primary reason given is that LPRng is under active maintenance, > and the existing BSD lpr is not. That seems to me to be the primary motivator. Other folks were talking about our lpr being somewhat arcane. My only concern is that we lose through incompatibility with previous releases what we gain in maintenance. Of course, I'm one of the people that isn't affected by this. I'm just worried about the "replacement bandwagon" that seems to be gathering momentum. I'd feel more comfortable knowing that each replacement proposal were evaluated on its own merits, rather than just being allowed to ride in on the momentum of another. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:47:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A673337BAC2 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02965; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Will Andrews Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:35:25 EDT." <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:47:59 -0700 Message-ID: <2962.962038079@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What are people's opinions about doing this? IMHO there is nothing in > inetd that is absolutely essential when someone installs FreeBSD on a > virgin system. Let's take a few things as examples. Telnet is an > insecure protocol and has been replaced for the most part by SSH. Then > there's FTP. How many people are going to run FTP servers on their > machines by default? Now talk daemon, auth server (for ident, typically > used with IRC), and finger. Not everyone really needs these. I think it's a fairly evil idea. People expect to be able to telnet into a box right after it's installed and they're not always on an insecure LAN which makes that a security issue. Even when it is an issue, our telnet supports SRA encryption now. If you want to really solve the problem, write a new "services dialog" for sysinstall which lets you select the things you'd like to have listening for connections at boot time and edit the prototype /etc/inetd.conf accordingly. ssh could also get an entry in that list, which would probably be far easier for people to find than its current position under Startup->Networking. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:50:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D15D37BADD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA68930; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:50:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA19816; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:48:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> To: Hajimu UMEMOTO (=?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCR19LXBsoQiAbJEJIJRsoQg==?=) Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:40:43 +0900." <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> References: <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:48:34 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> Hajimu UMEMOTO writes: : >>>>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:24 -0600 : >>>>> Warner Losh said: : : imp> fetch supports using -o to secify the output filename. However, ftp : imp> doesn't. Since fetch won't work with socks, I've been using ftp for : imp> all my fetching needs with ports for the past several years. Now, : imp> I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using : imp> -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? : : `runsocks fetch' may be your friend. runsocks fetch doesn't work for me. I don't have the absolute latest socks port on my machine. Do you know if that fixes it? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:51:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D609837B9CE for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02994; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:46:23 +0200." <43200.962012783@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:52:06 -0700 Message-ID: <2991.962038326@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Could someone just enumerate the advantages of importing LPRng? It It does everything that lpr and apsfilter do combined, right out of the box. That is to say that all we would need to do is add a printer setup dialog to sysinstall which lets you pick your printer type and then the rest would be largely a matter of installing a few external dependency packages, like ghostscript, and users could print everything from jpeg files to EPS without having to know much, if anything, about it. That is, at least to me, the biggest advantage. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 9:54:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41ADE37BB32; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03011; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:51:46 +0200." <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:54:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3008.962038498@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do you have a neat way of getting ssh to work out of the box with > a non-US crypto install? If there is a neat way, then sure, enable > sshd by default and disable inetd. Until then I think inetd+telnet > should be the only thing enabled on the box. Yeah, it does bear noting that even now that FreeBSD has US government export permission for crypto, the RSAREF/RSAINTL stuff has *patent* issues with RSA Associates that still prevent its being exported. The rsaref package, if you read its license carefully, is also not supposed to be used for commercial purposes inside the united states, so some people can't use it at all. Three more months until that patent expires, folks. Just three more months. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 10:57:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peace.mahoroba.org (peace.calm.imasy.or.jp [202.227.26.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463FF37B7BD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:FAsNuOGA64fAaqIof0ChiWGKH1TUH6yhjald+WiYFEcZ17QpyoDgZjTHSwo5xeBt@localhost [::1]) (authenticated) by peace.mahoroba.org (8.10.2/3.7W-peace) with ESMTP id e5QHuJ436933; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:56:19 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:56:16 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20000627.025616.112600456.ume@mahoroba.org> To: imp@village.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx From: Hajimu UMEMOTO In-Reply-To: <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> References: <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.95b38 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjJWMWMbKEIp?= X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:48:34 -0600 >>>>> Warner Losh said: imp> runsocks fetch doesn't work for me. I don't have the absolute latest imp> socks port on my machine. Do you know if that fixes it? Umm, it's curious. Recently, I'm not actuall using socks. But, I was using runsocks before. I just installed socks5 from ports on my 5.0-CURRENT box and tried. It seems working for me. # I'm not behind firewall now. So, I checked it by tcpdump. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 11:38:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C9637B7A8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA69438; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:38:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA25337; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:36:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006261836.MAA25337@harmony.village.org> To: Hajimu UMEMOTO Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:56:16 +0900." <20000627.025616.112600456.ume@mahoroba.org> References: <20000627.025616.112600456.ume@mahoroba.org> <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:36:55 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000627.025616.112600456.ume@mahoroba.org> Hajimu UMEMOTO writes: : Umm, it's curious. : Recently, I'm not actuall using socks. But, I was using runsocks : before. : I just installed socks5 from ports on my 5.0-CURRENT box and tried. : It seems working for me. : : # I'm not behind firewall now. So, I checked it by tcpdump. runsocks fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep fetch: sendmsg: people.freebsd.org: No route to host runsocks ftp http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep Looks like sendmsg isn't implemented in socks5. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:12:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF4337B84E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:12:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5C93A9B39; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:12:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:12:48 -0500 From: "Jacques A . Vidrine" To: Warner Losh Cc: Hajimu UMEMOTO , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Message-ID: <20000626141248.A52515@spawn.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A . Vidrine" , Warner Losh , Hajimu UMEMOTO , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:48:34AM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:48:34AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > runsocks fetch doesn't work for me. I don't have the absolute latest > socks port on my machine. Do you know if that fixes it? FWIW, it doesn't work with Dante either. I haven't had time to look at it (I just point it at my http proxy instead). -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:16: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7148437B8FC; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19887; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA65948; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:47 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626121547.A64105@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <3008.962038498@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3008.962038498@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:54:58AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:54:58AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Do you have a neat way of getting ssh to work out of the box with > > a non-US crypto install? ... > Yeah, it does bear noting that even now that FreeBSD has US government > export permission for crypto, the RSAREF/RSAINTL stuff has *patent* > issues with RSA Associates that still prevent its being exported. The But this should not be an issue, now that our OpenSSH also does the version 2 protocol. The v2 protocol does not require RSA at all. We should be able to export all the DH/DSA bits on the CDROM that we need for v2 to just work out of the box. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:23:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6538737BC8D; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03877; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:23:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:47 PDT." <20000626121547.A64105@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:23:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3874.962047433@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But this should not be an issue, now that our OpenSSH also does the > version 2 protocol. The v2 protocol does not require RSA at all. We > should be able to export all the DH/DSA bits on the CDROM that we need > for v2 to just work out of the box. I did not know this. So, which "we" were you referring to in your last sentence? Sounded more like an "I, David O'Brien" to me. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:26:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDBD37BAE3; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA97090; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Nate Williams Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: <200006261615.KAA18734@nomad.yogotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Nate Williams wrote: > I think it's a bad idea, and assumes that the 'default' installation is > a box that's running 24/7 connected directly to the internet. That certainly is the assumption - I think it's a quite valid one in this day and age. If such a thing were to be done, I'd expect a sysinstall knob to turn inetd back on, so you'd just have to tick an extra box during sysinstall - hardly a big price to pay. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:32: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D4837BB8F; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA97737; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: <2962.962038079@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think it's a fairly evil idea. People expect to be able to telnet > into a box right after it's installed and they're not always on an > insecure LAN which makes that a security issue. On the other hand, I would postulate that a *lot* of people out there are still using telnet/rlogin because they're lazy and haven't bothered to install ssh, or don't realise it's bad. IMO, we need to give these people a gentle kick into doing the right thing. Really, there's no reason why you can't use ssh all the time even over "trusted" connections. But there is a legitimate concern about people who *can't* ssh. IMO, the best solution would be to allow people to simply turn telnetd (and ftpd) back on in an obvious place in sysinstall. Maybe I care enough about this to finally overcome my fear of sysinstall and attempt it: we'll see. > Even when it is an issue, our telnet supports SRA encryption now. SRA isn't really a good example since it's not very secure. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:32: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714C937BCAC; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA73246; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:32:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200006260448.WAA16149@harmony.village.org> References: <20000621221636.A4137@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <200006240653.AAA02110@harmony.village.org> <200006260448.WAA16149@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:32:30 -0400 To: Warner Losh From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nik Clayton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:48 PM -0600 6/25/00, Warner Losh wrote: >Garance A Drosihn writes: >: Similarly, I would agitate to become a committer just for >: lpr and friends, but I don't work enough with *freebsd* to >: feel comfortable with that. Sometime soon I should have >: more free time, but right now I simply can not keep up with >: 'current', and it seems that is what I should be doing if >: I want to have my fingers in the middle of the system. That >: isn't anyone's fault either, it's "just the way it is". > >I'm not sure who our lpr/lpd committer is, but I know that >people have gotten their commit privs for less.... I'd be >happy to sponsor you. Hmm. Well, I have this little voice whispering in the back of my mind, with the warning "Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it...". That said, I would be willing to find out what other things I'd need to know to be a committer, what additional mailing lists to join, etc. I really am going to be rather busy for a few more weeks here, so I'd probably have to start slow to get the feel of how to do things. Still, I do have this long list of changes that I'd like to move from "my lpr" to the standard one, and I guess I'd rather be in the firing line for those than waiting impatiently for someone else to have the time to commit the changes. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:42:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA1337B75F; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA98767; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: <3874.962047433@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But this should not be an issue, now that our OpenSSH also does the > > version 2 protocol. The v2 protocol does not require RSA at all. We > > should be able to export all the DH/DSA bits on the CDROM that we need > > for v2 to just work out of the box. > > I did not know this. So, which "we" were you referring to in your > last sentence? Sounded more like an "I, David O'Brien" to me. :-) Actually I just checked (sorry for giving incorrect advice before, david :) and sshd quite won't run out of the box with the default config file because it tries to initialise the RSA server key for protocol 1, which will fail to bind the RSA stubs and exit. Solutions are: 1) Put "Protocol 2" in the config file if RSA libraries are not installed, to force SSH2 mode which only uses DSA 2) Fix the sshd code to not exit if RSA can't be found and just fall back to SSH2 mode (probably better) Other than that, sshd will work by default on all new systems. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:43:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1694237B75F for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20002; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA79722; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:43:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626124305.C64105@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000626121547.A64105@dragon.nuxi.com> <3874.962047433@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3874.962047433@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:23:53PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:23:53PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But this should not be an issue, now that our OpenSSH also does the > > version 2 protocol. The v2 protocol does not require RSA at all. We > > should be able to export all the DH/DSA bits on the CDROM that we need > > for v2 to just work out of the box. > > I did not know this. So, which "we" were you referring to in your > last sentence? Sounded more like an "I, David O'Brien" to me. :-) We FreeBSD (or rather BSDi or whoever masters the discs). -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:47: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from light.imasy.or.jp (light.imasy.or.jp [202.227.24.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1987C37B75F for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by light.imasy.or.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W-light) with UUCP id EAA03662; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:46:57 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:fTG9RxDYxv9h6LMrzYn2OOahNqoWSSU0BtbHgfhvJE567S9UVj6BBmq2RA7VrAwF@peace.mahoroba.org [2001:200:301:0:200:f8ff:fe05:3eae]) by mail.mahoroba.org (8.10.2/3.7W-chaos) with ESMTP id e5QJjQS08007; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:45:26 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:45:26 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20000627.044526.115932717.ume@mahoroba.org> To: imp@village.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx From: Hajimu UMEMOTO In-Reply-To: <200006261836.MAA25337@harmony.village.org> References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> <200006261836.MAA25337@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.95b38 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjJWMWMbKEIp?= X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:36:55 -0600 >>>>> Warner Losh said: imp> runsocks fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep imp> fetch: sendmsg: people.freebsd.org: No route to host imp> runsocks ftp http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep imp> I see. imp> Looks like sendmsg isn't implemented in socks5. libfetch version of fetch(1) may solve your problem. :-p sock5 seems supporting sendmsg(). Because, it has HAVE_SENDMSG and corresponding function. But, it is not working. I did runsocks fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep. Then, fetch(1) connected to people.freebsd.org directly. I tried -t option. Then: ume@peace:187> runsocks fetch -t http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep fetch: empty reply from people.freebsd.org Then, I snooped with tcpdump. It seems the reply is returned via socks5 gateway. Umm... -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:50:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CD737BB63 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20044; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:50:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA92591; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:50:20 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Peter Jeremy Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plans to change our debugging format to DWARF2 Message-ID: <20000626125020.D64105@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000606124116.A16993@cons.org> <20000606080031.F78380@dragon.nuxi.com> <20000608091507.E1587@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <00Jun21.062526est.115228@border.alcanet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <00Jun21.062526est.115228@border.alcanet.com.au>; from peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au on Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:23:49PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:23:49PM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > If the recent changes to gcc and binutils were merged back into > -stable, there would seem to be seem to be a high probability that > -stable would break. Binutils 2.10 (or 2.10.1) *will* be in FreeBSD 4.1-R. GCC 2.95.2 can produce code that gas 2.9.1 cannot understand. Also people are clammoring for MMX/3Dnow/K6 instruction support. We've already been behind Linux for a year on these because Linux uses development snapshots. Now that there is an actual released Binutils with these features, we should not make our userbase wait another year to get them. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 12:51:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A636537B691; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA00394; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:51:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > :) and sshd quite won't run out of the box with the default config file won't quite Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 13:23:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27B037BC4B; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04145; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , obrien@FreeBSD.org, Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:42:33 PDT." Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:23:51 -0700 Message-ID: <4142.962051031@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > 2) Fix the sshd code to not exit if RSA can't be found and just fall back > to SSH2 mode (probably better) I like that option for lots of reasons, myself. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 13:23:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B37637BA16; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04161; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:43:05 PDT." <20000626124305.C64105@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:24:23 -0700 Message-ID: <4158.962051063@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I did not know this. So, which "we" were you referring to in your > > last sentence? Sounded more like an "I, David O'Brien" to me. :-) > > We FreeBSD (or rather BSDi or whoever masters the discs). Well, then I guess I'll need to assign this to somebody.. ;) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 13:36:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peace.mahoroba.org (peace.calm.imasy.or.jp [202.227.26.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A096137BD1E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:qm9KuuB95zQZRWMZOx8EYtMkqWILGcenfKTLGJfcJwF1t3mTAZn4p/PDHmeigzZj@localhost [::1]) (authenticated) by peace.mahoroba.org (8.10.2/3.7W-peace) with ESMTP id e5QKYs438329; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:34:54 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:34:51 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20000627.053451.08344737.ume@mahoroba.org> To: imp@village.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx From: Hajimu UMEMOTO In-Reply-To: <20000627.044526.115932717.ume@mahoroba.org> References: <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> <200006261836.MAA25337@harmony.village.org> <20000627.044526.115932717.ume@mahoroba.org> X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.95b38 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjJWMWMbKEIp?= X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ume> ume@peace:187> runsocks fetch -t http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep ume> fetch: empty reply from people.freebsd.org It seems working with -t and -b options. However, I don't know why. ume@peace:204> runsocks fetch -tb http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep Receiving diskprep (4374 bytes): 100% 4374 bytes transferred in 1.3 seconds (3.20 Kbytes/s) -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 14:24:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB5637BD89 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5QLOS902278 for arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:24:28 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In order to have a kld add a new filetype (DTYPE_VNODE, DTYPE_PIPE, etc.) it needs to generate a unique number. My inclination is to just add a DTYPE_MAX(*) and provide a function for the kld initializers to call "short getnewdtype(void)" which returns the next available number. This does limit us to about 32764 module driver loads before getnewdtype will return -1 (error). This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, the api would look something like: (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ The other option that I like is turning f_type into a (char *) so that sections of the kernel can compare them, the convention will be to assign them to various constant strings so comparisons can be made. A suggestion was made to extend the 'struct fileops' in struct file to be OOP enough to deal with various other syscalls, perhaps at a later time we can do this to allow for 'dma' in kernel space from one filetype to another where applicable, but for now I'd just like to be able to register my loadable filetype. Comments? (*) it's annoying how DTYPE aliases to disklabel.h constants as well. *sigh* -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 14:32:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD29437BCBB for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 136gU7-000E5m-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:32:03 +0200 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:32:03 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000626233203.Y36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:24:28PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > In order to have a kld add a new filetype (DTYPE_VNODE, DTYPE_PIPE, > etc.) it needs to generate a unique number. > > My inclination is to just add a DTYPE_MAX(*) and provide a function > for the kld initializers to call "short getnewdtype(void)" which > returns the next available number. This does limit us to about > 32764 module driver loads before getnewdtype will return -1 (error). > > This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation > that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, > the api would look something like: > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ The debug gods might like: mynum = sequence_next("filetypes", "DTYPE_FOO", "A foo-type file"); ? Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 14:36: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19C1837B932; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5QLZtk02770; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:35:55 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Adrian Chadd Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000626143555.C275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000626233203.Y36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626233203.Y36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk>; from adrian@freebsd.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:32:03PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Adrian Chadd [000626 14:32] wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > In order to have a kld add a new filetype (DTYPE_VNODE, DTYPE_PIPE, > > etc.) it needs to generate a unique number. > > > > My inclination is to just add a DTYPE_MAX(*) and provide a function > > for the kld initializers to call "short getnewdtype(void)" which > > returns the next available number. This does limit us to about > > 32764 module driver loads before getnewdtype will return -1 (error). > > > > This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation > > that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, > > the api would look something like: > > > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ > > The debug gods might like: > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes", "DTYPE_FOO", "A foo-type file"); Yes, the only problem is that it requires storage for each number. I think that the correct thing to do is provide both APIs, one requiring storage but providing nicer debugging capabilities along with number recycling and another with just a straight-up sequence which fails once a wrap needs to happen. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 14:38:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E587A37B6DB for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 136ga1-000E6t-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:38:09 +0200 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:38:09 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000626233809.A36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000626233203.Y36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626143555.C275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626143555.C275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:35:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > the api would look something like: > > > > > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ > > > > The debug gods might like: > > > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes", "DTYPE_FOO", "A foo-type file"); > > Yes, the only problem is that it requires storage for each number. > > I think that the correct thing to do is provide both APIs, one > requiring storage but providing nicer debugging capabilities along > with number recycling and another with just a straight-up sequence > which fails once a wrap needs to happen. You could always just give the one API, and some options BLAH magic to say whether to compile in the strings or not .. "storage for each number" - how many filetypes are you going to register? :-) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 14:49:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3647F37B8B7; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5QLnCJ03164; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:12 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Adrian Chadd Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000626144912.D275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000626233203.Y36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626143555.C275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000626233809.A36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626233809.A36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk>; from adrian@freebsd.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:38:09PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Adrian Chadd [000626 14:38] wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > the api would look something like: > > > > > > > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > > > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ > > > > > > The debug gods might like: > > > > > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes", "DTYPE_FOO", "A foo-type file"); > > > > Yes, the only problem is that it requires storage for each number. > > > > I think that the correct thing to do is provide both APIs, one > > requiring storage but providing nicer debugging capabilities along > > with number recycling and another with just a straight-up sequence > > which fails once a wrap needs to happen. > > You could always just give the one API, and some options BLAH magic > to say whether to compile in the strings or not .. > > "storage for each number" - how many filetypes are you going to > register? :-) Heh, one never knows. One more thing I'll be needing to add is a DTYPE_MAX equal to DTYPE_KQUEUE, any objections? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 15:33:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF9237B8B1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip139.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.139]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22605; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:33:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3957DA87.ACC18A28@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:34:47 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <200006261615.KAA18734@nomad.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams wrote: > > > I was just a few minutes ago talking with some of my colleagues about > > disabling inetd completely in a default install. > > > > What are people's opinions about doing this? > > I think it's a bad idea, and assumes that the 'default' installation is > a box that's running 24/7 connected directly to the internet. > > I only have one box that is 'vulnerable' to the internet, and it's my > firewall. All the other boxes are inside the firewall, and can (and do) > run the other daemons since they are most useful, *especially* for > configuring the box. This is another great branch point for an install "flavor": normal vs. locked-down. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 16: 7:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EAD37BDF7 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip139.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.139]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22703; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:07:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3957E278.D3B38F54@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:08:40 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <31805.962037817@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:51:25 CST, Wes Peters wrote: > > > I think the primary reason given is that LPRng is under active maintenance, > > and the existing BSD lpr is not. > > That seems to me to be the primary motivator. Other folks were talking > about our lpr being somewhat arcane. > > My only concern is that we lose through incompatibility with previous > releases what we gain in maintenance. > > Of course, I'm one of the people that isn't affected by this. I'm just > worried about the "replacement bandwagon" that seems to be gathering > momentum. I'd feel more comfortable knowing that each replacement > proposal were evaluated on its own merits, rather than just being > allowed to ride in on the momentum of another. We're in the same boat here. I'm a very lightweight user of lpr, but also worry about replacement "because it's cool" rather than replacement because it really needs to be replaced. OTOH, I'm the first to agree that lpr is an arcane pile of bits. I wonder if we shouldn't hold out for something even more up-to-date than LPRng. Rather than going with an LPR system that sucks less, perhaps a really good queuing system that knows how to feed printers, handles print and graphics files formats automagically, and is configured through a simple web interface? If we start it, we can license it suitably, but can probably still get the Linux gang to help us with the code. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 17: 2: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from funkthat.com (adsl-63-195-54-213.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.195.54.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9211E37BA93 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by funkthat.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA55820; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000626170155.54803@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:01:55 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from Alfred Perlstein on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:24:28PM -0700 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein scribbled this message on Jun 26: > This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation > that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, > the api would look something like: > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ shouldn't we use newbus for this? and treat this like device driver assignment? we can "wire" down filetypes numbers using the same method that drivers are wired down with... Inventing another interface for one that already exists seems redundant.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 408 975 9651 Cu Networking "Thank God I'm an atheist, that'd just be confusing." -- cmc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 17:14:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C705F37BD7D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:14:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm001-039.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.80.39]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20399; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:14:17 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9C7BD19B6; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:12:30 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Nate Williams Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626201230.A23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <200006261615.KAA18734@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006261615.KAA18734@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:15:36AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:15:36AM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > I think it's a bad idea, and assumes that the 'default' installation is > a box that's running 24/7 connected directly to the internet. How long it's connected doesn't make any difference. How it's connected does, but consider 2 scenarios: a) person does not have inet access, but has network access; b) person does not have any sort of connection. a) is not a common thing. b) would render inetd completely useless. > I only have one box that is 'vulnerable' to the internet, and it's my > firewall. All the other boxes are inside the firewall, and can (and do) > run the other daemons since they are most useful, *especially* for > configuring the box. The argument here is that we don't need inetd enabled by default (which follows the line of reasoning that if we don't really need anything specified in inetd.conf, we don't need inetd). Your situation does not give any reason why you can't simply turn on your services when you're up and running. I'm waiting for someone to give me a reason why inetd needs to be running at INSTALL time, not when it is brought on a network (there have been one or two so far mentioned). -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 17:17: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C93F37BD89; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm001-039.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.80.39]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21065; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:16:52 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7C822195D; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:15:08 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Adrian Chadd , Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626201508.B23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <3008.962038498@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3008.962038498@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:54:58AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:54:58AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Three more months until that patent expires, folks. Just three more > months. I already realized that there is no way we can disable inetd completely until telnet can have a guaranteed replacement, like ssh. =) When RSAREF becomes public domain (or whatever), that's a likely time when we can lock down inetd by default. In the meantime, there's nothing preventing us from working on any other issues that might prevent this from happening. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 18: 9:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF82D37B8E4 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:09:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA71092; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:08:58 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3957E278.D3B38F54@softweyr.com> References: <31805.962037817@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <3957E278.D3B38F54@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:09:27 -0400 To: Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:08 PM -0600 6/26/00, Wes Peters wrote: >Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > > My only concern is that we lose through incompatibility with > > previous releases what we gain in maintenance. > > > > Of course, I'm one of the people that isn't affected by this. > > I'm just worried about the "replacement bandwagon" that seems > > to be gathering momentum. [...] > >We're in the same boat here. I'm a very lightweight user of lpr, >but also worry about replacement "because it's cool" rather than >replacement because it really needs to be replaced. > >OTOH, I'm the first to agree that lpr is an arcane pile of bits. >I wonder if we shouldn't hold out for something even more up-to-date >than LPRng. Rather than going with an LPR system that sucks less, >perhaps a really good queuing system that knows how to feed printers, >handles print and graphics files formats automagically, and is >configured through a simple web interface? Well, lprNG does offer some of that, though not the 'simple web interface' for configuring. Part of the problem for that goal is that the printers themselves have all kinds of annoying quirks. The current code for freebsd's lpr is actually cleaned up quite a bit from a few years ago. Still a bit arcane and poorly structured, but improving. I tend to prefer gradual cleanup like this to starting some brand new printing project with all kinds of grand goals. If anyone is uneasy about switching to lprNG, they'd have to be even more uneasy about a complete printing rewrite which loses all trace of past history. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 18:17: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFD137BDB7; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5R1GxW09685; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:16:59 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John-Mark Gurney Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, dfr@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000626181658.H275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000626170155.54803@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626170155.54803@hydrogen.funkthat.com>; from gurney_j@efn.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 05:01:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * John-Mark Gurney [000626 17:02] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein scribbled this message on Jun 26: > > This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation > > that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, > > the api would look something like: > > > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ > > shouldn't we use newbus for this? and treat this like device driver > assignment? we can "wire" down filetypes numbers using the same method > that drivers are wired down with... > > Inventing another interface for one that already exists seems redundant.. Nice try, but I think this qualifies as interface abuse of the year. :) The problem is that I can't dynamically allocate the 'type' argument to bus_alloc_resource. Doug, what do you think? Is there a way to dynamically make new types? Or an easy way to make indepenant busses so that I can allocate different sequences not pre-compiled into newbus? thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 18:30:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from funkthat.com (adsl-63-195-54-213.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.195.54.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CC537BD95; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by funkthat.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA57208; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000626183015.25813@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:30:15 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, dfr@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000626170155.54803@hydrogen.funkthat.com> <20000626181658.H275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <20000626181658.H275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from Alfred Perlstein on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 06:16:59PM -0700 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein scribbled this message on Jun 26: > * John-Mark Gurney [000626 17:02] wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein scribbled this message on Jun 26: > > > This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation > > > that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, > > > the api would look something like: > > > > > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ > > > > shouldn't we use newbus for this? and treat this like device driver > > assignment? we can "wire" down filetypes numbers using the same method > > that drivers are wired down with... > > > > Inventing another interface for one that already exists seems redundant.. > > Nice try, but I think this qualifies as interface abuse of the year. :) > > The problem is that I can't dynamically allocate the 'type' argument > to bus_alloc_resource. > > Doug, what do you think? Is there a way to dynamically make new > types? Or an easy way to make indepenant busses so that I can > allocate different sequences not pre-compiled into newbus? I was talking about devclass... man 9 devclass for more info... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 408 975 9651 Cu Networking "Thank God I'm an atheist, that'd just be confusing." -- cmc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 18:47:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB78E37BDAE for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23444; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:45:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:45:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Wes Peters Cc: Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <39577BFD.3C3ECB54@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > > Could someone just enumerate the advantages of importing LPRng? It > > seems to be a package which can me made to do everything FreeBSD's lpr > > can do, but it does not seem to be a superset of FreeBSD's lpr. This > > means that there is a cost associated with bringing it in as a > > replacement. > > > > Are we sure that the cost is justified? Is it so much better than the > > existing lpr that having it available as a port is "not enough"? > > > > I have no stsrong opinion one way or the other, but I do get the feeling > > that this thread has skipped an important issue, instead focusing on > > licensing. This looks like a little cart before horse. > > I think the primary reason given is that LPRng is under active maintenance, > and the existing BSD lpr is not. There have been internally generated updates (take a look at cvs log). I have to admit there haven't been too many, but I personally really hate adding more GPL software, when the existing software WILL do the job for most users, and ports can serve equally well for folks who need more capability. If the only criteria was which was better, then ports wouldn't really exist. If I wanted GPL stuff, I would go get Linux. If I want lprng, I need only install the port. It's really easy adding a port, but far harder taking lprng back out and adding in lpr back again, for those folks who are using FreeBSD as a commercial development platform. I just don't like gratuitously adding in extra GPL when there's no absolutely required reason for it. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 18:51:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05B937BD74 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm001-039.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.80.39]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10972; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:50:46 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29364195D; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:49:00 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Chuck Robey Cc: Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626214900.G23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <39577BFD.3C3ECB54@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:45:48PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:45:48PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > I just don't like gratuitously adding in extra GPL when there's no > absolutely required reason for it. In case you haven't noticed, we can also install LPRng using the Artistic license, which is much nicer than GPV. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19: 8:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B566C37B5C9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28026; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:06:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:06:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Will Andrews Cc: Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000626214900.G23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:45:48PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > I just don't like gratuitously adding in extra GPL when there's no > > absolutely required reason for it. > > In case you haven't noticed, we can also install LPRng using the > Artistic license, which is much nicer than GPV. I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic license says you can only use it inside your own organization, freely, you can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). I will admit that the Artistic License is *far* more acceptable than the GPL, but I just don't see the need to get this in. I will immediately admit it's better software, but I can't see why we need it in the base system, when one of the side effects is losing a perfectly good BSD licensed lpd. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19:12:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190D337B74C for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7F9C81C66; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:12:08 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Chuck Robey Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626221208.T5255@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000626214900.G23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic > license says you can only use it inside your own organization, freely, you > can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). > > I will admit that the Artistic License is *far* more acceptable than the > GPL, but I just don't see the need to get this in. I will immediately > admit it's better software, but I can't see why we need it in the base > system, when one of the side effects is losing a perfectly good BSD > licensed lpd. This would limit us from having FreeBSD based printer-in-a-box type solutions... -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19:25:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8DA37BDC7 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5R2HoU11165; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:17:50 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Chuck Robey , Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626191750.I275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000626214900.G23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626221208.T5255@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626221208.T5255@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from billf@chc-chimes.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:12:08PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Bill Fumerola [000626 19:12] wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic > > license says you can only use it inside your own organization, freely, you > > can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). > > > > I will admit that the Artistic License is *far* more acceptable than the > > GPL, but I just don't see the need to get this in. I will immediately > > admit it's better software, but I can't see why we need it in the base > > system, when one of the side effects is losing a perfectly good BSD > > licensed lpd. > > This would limit us from having FreeBSD based printer-in-a-box type > solutions... I would have to agree, LPRng is not acceptable for replacement or inclusion. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19:26:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1026C37BDE7 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from justin@rhapture.apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19852 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:16 -0700 Received: from rhapture.apple.com (rhapture.apple.com [17.202.40.59]) by scv1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22690 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rhapture.apple.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA01222 for arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006270226.TAA01222@rhapture.apple.com> To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: ; fromchuckr@picnic.mat.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0700 From: "Justin C. Walker" Reply-To: justin@apple.com X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.105.dev) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From: Bill Fumerola > Date: 2000-06-26 19:13:04 -0700 > To: Chuck Robey > Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? > Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters > ,Sheldon Hearn , > arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com > In-reply-to: ; > fromchuckr@picnic.mat.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400 > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 > X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i > Delivered-to: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic > > license says you can only use it inside your own organization, freely, you > > can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). > > > > I will admit that the Artistic License is *far* more acceptable than the > > GPL, but I just don't see the need to get this in. I will immediately > > admit it's better software, but I can't see why we need it in the base > > system, when one of the side effects is losing a perfectly good BSD > > licensed lpd. > > This would limit us from having FreeBSD based printer-in-a-box type > solutions... I don't read the artistic license this way. Seems like it requires only that you keep copyrights attached, and if you make changes, you either provide the original along with the changed version, or make the effort to get the changes back to the Copyright Holder for incorporation. In addition, point 5 seems to indicate that it's OK to include it "in aggregate", including use as part of a commercial software release, without violating the agreement, as long as you don't claim that lprng is "FreeBSD code" (keep the attributions correct, or somesuch). Regards, Justin -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large * Institute for General Semantics | Manager, CoreOS Networking | Men are from Earth. Apple Computer, Inc. | Women are from Earth. 2 Infinite Loop | Deal with it. Cupertino, CA 95014 | *-------------------------------------*-------------------------------* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19:26:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE4037BEA1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id TAA03505; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:25:00 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda03503; Mon Jun 26 19:24:49 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA28058; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdc28047; Mon Jun 26 19:23:54 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.2/8.9.1) id e5R2Nr501622; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006270223.e5R2Nr501622@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdZM1616; Mon Jun 26 19:23:27 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Chuck Robey Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:06:30 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:23:27 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Chuck Robey writes: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:45:48PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > I just don't like gratuitously adding in extra GPL when there's no > > > absolutely required reason for it. > > > > In case you haven't noticed, we can also install LPRng using the > > Artistic license, which is much nicer than GPV. > > I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic > license says you can only use it inside your own organization, freely, you > can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). > > I will admit that the Artistic License is *far* more acceptable than the > GPL, but I just don't see the need to get this in. I will immediately > admit it's better software, but I can't see why we need it in the base > system, when one of the side effects is losing a perfectly good BSD > licensed lpd. A suggestion I made, that only Patrick picked up on and which requires repeating, was to create lpr/lpc/lpd applications that were of similar structure to /usr/sbin/sendmail, which performed a table lookup, to find the real application to be used. The advantages would be that both lpr/lpd and LPRng, and by extension sendmail and postfix, could be included in base and administrators could use whichever application they wanted based upon functionality, security, license preference, or any other criteria. Even if only one print application were in the base, it would make making the other the default much easier. Wouldn't this compromise or a form of this compromise satisfy most everyone? Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19:35:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316D137BDC3 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28146; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006270223.e5R2Nr501622@cwsys.cwsent.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > A suggestion I made, that only Patrick picked up on and which requires > repeating, was to create lpr/lpc/lpd applications that were of similar > structure to /usr/sbin/sendmail, which performed a table lookup, to > find the real application to be used. > > The advantages would be that both lpr/lpd and LPRng, and by extension > sendmail and postfix, could be included in base and administrators > could use whichever application they wanted based upon functionality, > security, license preference, or any other criteria. Even if only one > print application were in the base, it would make making the other the > default much easier. > > Wouldn't this compromise or a form of this compromise satisfy most > everyone? Nope. Your suggestion is an adjunct to making software changeable, and something like it has already been done for sendmail/postfix, but it doesn't answer the question at all, merely makes changing things easier. The question is, I remind you, whether or not to remove lpd and replace it with lprng, now HOW to replace it. We can pretty much figure out how. Go take a look at /etc/mail/mailer.conf, or mailer.conf(5). Your basic idea is just fine (something about imitation being flattery, like that). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 19:59:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 664) id CC6D037BDCF; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:59:38 -0700 From: David O'Brien To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Chuck Robey , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000626214900.G23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626221208.T5255@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <20000626221208.T5255@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from Bill Fumerola on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:12:08PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:12:08PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic > > license says you can only use it inside your own organization, freely, you > > can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). We should decide on just what it means. If the Artistic License alone is suffient to keep LPRng out of FreeBSD, then Perl needs to go. Just like LPRng, Perl is under the same "GPL or Artistic License". The Perl Lovers have made Perl so interwinded in FreeBSD that one virtually cannot build world or kernels with out it. http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/licenses.html says: Here is a list of some licenses that do not qualify as free software licenses. All of them are incompatible with the GNU GPL. The Artistic license. We cannot say that this is a free software license because it is too vague; some passages are too clever for their own good, and their meaning is not clear. We urge you to avoid using it, except as part of the disjunctive license of Perl. ..snip.. Again, we really should decide what the Artistic License means. While http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/licenses.html is leftest radical propoganda, FSF has thought more about licensing issues than I think we have. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 20: 1:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6139F37BDB8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22055; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA55704; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:13 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Will Andrews Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Message-ID: <20000626200113.A55518@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <3008.962038498@localhost> <20000626201508.B23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626201508.B23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:15:08PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:15:08PM -0400, Will Andrews wrote: > When RSAREF becomes public domain (or whatever), that's a likely time > when we can lock down inetd by default. You do not have to wait. We have SSH out of the box today (well, we need to make a tweak). -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 20: 7:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C9F37BDE9; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:07:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18822; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:37:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:37:02 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: obrien@freebsd.org Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Chuck Robey , Bill Fumerola Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Jun-00 David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:12:08PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > We should decide on just what it means. If the Artistic License alone is > suffient to keep LPRng out of FreeBSD, then Perl needs to go. Just like > LPRng, Perl is under the same "GPL or Artistic License". The Perl > Lovers have made Perl so interwinded in FreeBSD that one virtually cannot > build world or kernels with out it. Except that Perl fullfilled a function not present in the system where as the point here is that since lpr works, it is not necessary to replace it with something that has a bad licence. (Comments about the functionality of perl not welcome in this forum I would say :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 21:21:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767B537BE89 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17888; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:21:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39582BC2.CF2FF631@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:21:22 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0603 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuck Robey Cc: Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chuck Robey wrote: > There have been internally generated updates (take a look at cvs log). I > have to admit there haven't been too many, but I personally really hate > adding more GPL software, when the existing software WILL do the job for > most users, and ports can serve equally well for folks who need more > capability. If the only criteria was which was better, then ports > wouldn't really exist. If I wanted GPL stuff, I would go get Linux. > If I want lprng, I need only install the port. It's really easy adding a > port, but far harder taking lprng back out and adding in lpr back again, > for those folks who are using FreeBSD as a commercial development > platform. > > I just don't like gratuitously adding in extra GPL when there's no > absolutely required reason for it. This says it all for me. I haven't seen a compelling argument that our current lpd is flawed, just limited. That's not enough to justify bring in GNU software, even under the artistic license. Anyone who needs lprng's functionality can install the port, or apsfilter, or whatever else will work for them. I strongly oppose the inclusion of lprng in the base. Speaking only for myself, Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 21:44:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A9237B521 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:44:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22395; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA91981; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:57:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626205705.A84551@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:37:02PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:37:02PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > Except that Perl fullfilled a function not present in the system Somebody please remind me again what perl does for us that we could not have done in sh/awk/sed/tr etc. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23: 6:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761E637B5B2; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5R66n321294; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:06:49 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "David O'Brien" Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626230648.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org> <20000626205705.A84551@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626205705.A84551@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:57:05PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [000626 21:44] wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:37:02PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > Except that Perl fullfilled a function not present in the system > > Somebody please remind me again what perl does for us that we could not > have done in sh/awk/sed/tr etc. Had 'use strict' and warnings been mandated for source entering the system ala some sort of perl-style(9) we'd have some pretty easy to parse scripts. However as it stands now... :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23: 8:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AA937B6D8; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:08:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from nlsys.demon.co.uk ([158.152.125.33] helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 136oXq-0001ui-0K; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:08:26 +0000 Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08978; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:08:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:12:32 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: John-Mark Gurney , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, dfr@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. In-Reply-To: <20000626181658.H275@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * John-Mark Gurney [000626 17:02] wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein scribbled this message on Jun 26: > > > This idea leads us to a generic api for seqeunce number generation > > > that we can use when a subsystem needs an increasing unique number, > > > the api would look something like: > > > > > > (void)sequence_register("filetypes", starting_number); > > > mynum = sequence_next("filetypes"); /* to be used for f_type */ > > > > shouldn't we use newbus for this? and treat this like device driver > > assignment? we can "wire" down filetypes numbers using the same method > > that drivers are wired down with... > > > > Inventing another interface for one that already exists seems redundant.. > > Nice try, but I think this qualifies as interface abuse of the year. :) > > The problem is that I can't dynamically allocate the 'type' argument > to bus_alloc_resource. > > Doug, what do you think? Is there a way to dynamically make new > types? Or an easy way to make indepenant busses so that I can > allocate different sequences not pre-compiled into newbus? The type value is only interpreted by the parent (or grandparent or whatever) which actually does the allocation. If two subtrees have totally disjoint resource requirements then they could use the same numbers for resource types. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 20 8442 9037 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:17:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6290037BDD2; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA72389; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:17:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA31842; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:15:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> To: papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Doug@gorean.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:53:27 PDT." <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> References: <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:15:41 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Looking at the rest of this thread, I thought I'd run through the license to see if there were any gotchas. So far all the FUD I've seen on the list seems to be false. Of course, I won't get into the PERL vs no-PERL war. FreeBSD requires PERL for too many things to rip it out, so let this part of the argument die please? There is 0 chance that PERL will be removed from FreeBSD barring future license problems or a really strange alignment of the planets. In message <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> papowell@astart.com writes: : 1. You may make and give away verbatim copies of the source form : of the Standard Version of this Package without restriction, provided : that you duplicate all of the original copyright notices and : associated disclaimers. OK. We'll may do this. : 2. You may apply bug fixes, portability fixes and other modifications : derived from the Public Domain or from the Copyright Holder. A : Package modified in such a way shall still be considered the Standard : Version. OK. Or this, or 3(a) below. : 3. You may otherwise modify your copy of this Package in any way, : provided that you insert a prominent notice in each changed file : stating how and when you changed that file, and provided that you : do at least ONE of the following: : : a) place your modifications in the Public Domain or otherwise : make them Freely Available, such as by posting said : modifications to Usenet or an equivalent medium, or placing : the modifications on a major archive site such as ftp.uu.net, : or by allowing the Copyright Holder to include your : modifications in the Standard Version of the Package. OK. (so b, c and d are irrelevant). : b) use the modified Package only within your corporation : or organization. : : c) rename any non-standard executables so the names do not : conflict with standard executables, which must also be : provided, and provide a separate manual page for each : non-standard executable that clearly documents how it : differs from the Standard Version. : : d) make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright : Holder. If company A hacks LPRng and wants to distribute it in binary form only, then they will have to make arrangements with the copyright holder. This isn't our problem. If they make verbatim copies, other clauses cover them (see 4a). : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code : or executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the : following: : : a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and : library files, together with instructions (in the manual : page or equivalent) on where to get the Standard Version. : : b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable : source of the Package with your modifications. OK. : c) accompany any non-standard executables with their : corresponding Standard Version executables, giving the : non-standard executables non-standard names, and clearly : documenting the differences in manual pages (or equivalent), : together with instructions on where to get the Standard : Version. : : d) make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright : Holder. : : 5. You may charge a reasonable copying fee for any distribution of : this Package. You may charge any fee you choose for support of this : Package. You may not charge a fee for this Package itself. However, : you may distribute this Package in aggregate with other (possibly : commercial) programs as part of a larger (possibly commercial) : software distribution provided that you do not advertise this : Package as a product of your own. since we'd charge the same for FreeBSD with this package or without, there is effectively no fee. : 6. The scripts and library files supplied as input to or produced : as output from the programs of this Package do not automatically : fall under the copyright of this Package, but belong to whomever : generated them, and may be sold commercially, and may be aggregated : with this Package. OK. : 7. C or perl subroutines supplied by you and linked into this : Package shall not be considered part of this Package. OK. : 8. The name of the Copyright Holder may not be used to endorse or : promote products derived from this software without specific prior : written permission. OK. : 9. THIS PACKAGE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR : IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED : WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTIBILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. OK. What's the problem? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:44:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C1937BFBA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23423; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:42:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39584D43.CF617FB7@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:44:19 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: justin@apple.com Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <200006270226.TAA01222@rhapture.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Justin C. Walker" wrote: > > > From: Bill Fumerola > > Date: 2000-06-26 19:13:04 -0700 > > To: Chuck Robey > > Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? > > Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters > > ,Sheldon Hearn , > > arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com > > In-reply-to: ; > > fromchuckr@picnic.mat.net on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400 > > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 > > X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i > > Delivered-to: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org > > > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:06:30PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > I did, but I'm sorry, Artistic License != BSD License. The Artistic > > > license says you can only use it inside your own organization, > freely, you > > > can not sell it or use it inside a product (like you can BSD). > > > > > > I will admit that the Artistic License is *far* more acceptable > than the > > > GPL, but I just don't see the need to get this in. I will > immediately > > > admit it's better software, but I can't see why we need it in > the base > > > system, when one of the side effects is losing a perfectly good BSD > > > licensed lpd. > > > > This would limit us from having FreeBSD based printer-in-a-box type > > solutions... > > I don't read the artistic license this way. Seems like it requires > only that you keep copyrights attached, and if you make changes, you > either provide the original along with the changed version, or make > the effort to get the changes back to the Copyright Holder for > incorporation. > > In addition, point 5 seems to indicate that it's OK to include it > "in aggregate", including use as part of a commercial software > release, without violating the agreement, as long as you don't claim > that lprng is "FreeBSD code" (keep the attributions correct, or > somesuch). In particular, it does not allow you to advertise "the Package" as being a product of your company. The simplest way around this is to not mention "the Package" by name at all. I.e. you are not allowed to advertise "New, Improved! with Frobozz Corp LPRng 1.23". You can say "New, Improved! Frobozz Print Server 1.23 with improved printer support" or some such. Section 4 of the Artistic License does look problematic for anyone trying to sell a product including a "customized" version of LPRng. None of options 4 a, b, or c look appealing, and I've grown very leery of "make other distribution arrangements with copyright holder." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:46:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139DA37BE4A; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23435; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:45:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39584E0A.2A4C2CB8@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:47:38 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org> <20000626205705.A84551@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:37:02PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > Except that Perl fullfilled a function not present in the system > > Somebody please remind me again what perl does for us that we could not > have done in sh/awk/sed/tr etc. Allow screaming butt-ugly code to creep all over the system? Nah, you *can* do that with sh/awk/sed/tr, too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:55:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73DB37BE17; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23453; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:51:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:52:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: papowell@astart.com, Doug@gorean.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > Looking at the rest of this thread, I thought I'd run through the > license to see if there were any gotchas. So far all the FUD I've > seen on the list seems to be false. > > : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code > : or executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the > : following: > : > : a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and > : library files, together with instructions (in the manual > : page or equivalent) on where to get the Standard Version. > : > : b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable > : source of the Package with your modifications. > > OK. If you're Joe's Print Server Corp you're not gonna be quite so willing to say "OK" to this. Do you really want your customers trying to upgrade your installation of LPRng on the ROMs in your Print Server ][ plus? > : c) accompany any non-standard executables with their > : corresponding Standard Version executables, giving the > : non-standard executables non-standard names, and clearly > : documenting the differences in manual pages (or equivalent), > : together with instructions on where to get the Standard > : Version. > : > : d) make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright > : Holder. Go back over this with your "I'm an embedded company using FreeBSD and I want to provide print services in my box" hat on and see if you still feel this is acceptable. Granted, this is not the only customer base FreeBSD has, but it's a good, strong one and one that has contributed a lot. Let's try not to blow it for them. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:55:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51BF337BE17 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22951; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA96538; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:33 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000626235533.B96461@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:15:41AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:15:41AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > Looking at the rest of this thread, I thought I'd run through the > license to see if there were any gotchas. So far all the FUD I've > seen on the list seems to be false. It seems the argument some have about the license issue is mute. So lets resume the discussion of LPRng on other merits. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:56: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0C537BE17; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA72711; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:55:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA32561; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:54:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, Doug@gorean.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:52:53 MDT." <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> References: <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:54:04 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : > : > Looking at the rest of this thread, I thought I'd run through the : > license to see if there were any gotchas. So far all the FUD I've : > seen on the list seems to be false. : > : > : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code : > : or executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the : > : following: : > : : > : a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and : > : library files, together with instructions (in the manual : > : page or equivalent) on where to get the Standard Version. : > : : > : b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable : > : source of the Package with your modifications. : > : > OK. : : If you're Joe's Print Server Corp you're not gonna be quite so willing to : say "OK" to this. Do you really want your customers trying to upgrade : your installation of LPRng on the ROMs in your Print Server ][ plus? We're not Joe's Print Server Corp. That's Joe's problem, not ours. He can deliver the stock version of LPRng, or make arrangements with the copyright holders, just like people that want to distribtue hacked copies of perl w/o passing their changes back. : > : c) accompany any non-standard executables with their : > : corresponding Standard Version executables, giving the : > : non-standard executables non-standard names, and clearly : > : documenting the differences in manual pages (or equivalent), : > : together with instructions on where to get the Standard : > : Version. : > : : > : d) make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright : > : Holder. : : Go back over this with your "I'm an embedded company using FreeBSD and : I want to provide print services in my box" hat on and see if you still : feel this is acceptable. Yes. : Granted, this is not the only customer base FreeBSD has, but it's a : good, strong one and one that has contributed a lot. Let's try not to : blow it for them. We shouldn't be afraid to import these sources based on this. Like I said before, if the server company wants to distribtue their own hacked copy of LPRng, which isn't available at all, then they will need to get a license from the copyright holder. Otherwise, they will have to use lpr. Us including or not including lprng won't change that. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 26 23:57: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CC737BE83; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19242; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:56:45 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0603 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > If company A hacks LPRng and wants to distribute it in binary form > only, then they will have to make arrangements with the copyright > holder. This isn't our problem. I'm surprised to hear this coming from you, actually. I disagree strongly that discouraging commercial vendors from being able to integrate "stock" parts of freebsd into their product is "not our problem." One of the drawing cards for freebsd is that commercial vendors _can_ take our code and use it in any manner they see fit. The list of exceptions is long enough already, I haven't seen a compelling reason to make it longer. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 0:27:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6835E37B6F6; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA72853; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:27:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA32822; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:25:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:56:45 PDT." <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> References: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:25:10 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> Doug Barton writes: : I'm surprised to hear this coming from you, actually. I disagree : strongly that discouraging commercial vendors from being able to : integrate "stock" parts of freebsd into their product is "not our : problem." One of the drawing cards for freebsd is that commercial : vendors _can_ take our code and use it in any manner they see fit. The : list of exceptions is long enough already, I haven't seen a compelling : reason to make it longer. I'd like to point out that FreeBSD isn't all Free. Significant portions of the tree are covered by licenses that require changes be disclosed. The compilers, binary utilities, awk, perl, and others have this restriction. Likewise there are parts of the system that don't even come as source (the fla driver is one example). These are restrictions that people must live with. Second, the ARTISTIC license does not preclude FreeBSD from including LPRng. This statement is still true. We can comply with all the terms of the license. Third, we have a crying need for a better print system. lpr/lpd are hard to maintain and difficult to audit. So we have to weigh the needs of most of the FreeBSD users against the theoretical needs of a potential company wanting to make print servers on a stick that requires them to hack lprng. We have to ask ourselves the following sorts of questions: 1) Is there a need? 2) Will this fit the need? 3) Is it better enough than what we have to kill what we have? 4) a) Will the licensing restrictions cause someone to not use FreeBSD? b) If so, do we care? 1) and 2) are well known. The answer is clearly yes. Question 3 is what we need to focus on, since it hasn't been answered due to the licensing squabble. In answering question 4a, I ask myself what the alternatives are: 1) Use NetBSD or OpenBSD and hack on lpr 2) Use FreeBSD w/o lprng and hack on lpr from ports 3) Use * and write your own printer queuing software If they choose (3) it doesn't matter what we have in FreeBSD since otherwise they would have used an old copy of lpr, so the answer is no. If they chose 2) then we answer 4a no again because they are using FreeBSD. If their choice is (1), then it is strong evidence that the license did matter. I would suspect that if they did do (1) it would be for reasons other than the license on the default print software in FreeBSD. So we wouldn't have won there anyway. So it looks like the answer to 4b is pretty close to "we don't care" since none of the alternatives were impacted by the licensing of FreeBSD default print queue software and that alone. That's my reasoning for saying that we don't need to care about a company that wants to create a print server based on FreeBSD. They will either use lpr/lpd from a previous release (hacked as they see fit), or use the new standard print queue software unmodified. Personally, I'd think it would be in their best interests to make sure that the changes to lprng got merged back into the baseline sources since I'd expect them to compete based on form factor of their custom hardware, ease of use, price, etc. rather than on pure functionality. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 0:32:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1557137B9C1; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA72884; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:31:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA32880; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:29:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006270729.BAA32880@harmony.village.org> To: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nik Clayton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:32:30 EDT." References: <20000621221636.A4137@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <200006240653.AAA02110@harmony.village.org> <200006260448.WAA16149@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:29:52 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Garance A Drosihn writes: : That said, I would be willing to find out what other things : I'd need to know to be a committer, what additional mailing [ I'll answer offline ] Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 0:40:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F4837BE40 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA72911; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:40:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA32943; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006270738.BAA32943@harmony.village.org> To: Alexander Langer Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:18:41 +0200." <20000626121841.A8286@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000626121841.A8286@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <20000626102547.C3549@cichlids.cichlids.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:38:14 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000626121841.A8286@cichlids.cichlids.com> Alexander Langer writes: : Thus spake Alexander Langer (alex@big.endian.de): : : > > I've run into snag. Some ports fetch stuff into subdirectories using : > > -o, so I was thinking of adding this to ftp. Comments? : > How would be hard adding socks-support to fetch? :) : : reorder words: : How hard would be ... :) I don't recall answering this publically. The problem seems to be that it requires a protocol change to socks5 to do right. At least that's my take after looking at it for a short while and I didn't want to deal with doing that. However, umemoto-san has given me a workaround that I'll play with for a while. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 0:46:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4074237B6B8 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA72926 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:46:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA32993 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:44:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006270744.BAA32993@harmony.village.org> Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:25:10 MDT." Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:44:53 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -------- I hate to follow up to myself. I did want to add that if my logic on why the license doesn't matter is faulty somehow, I would like to know. The one problem that I see people bringing up is the desire for anything that replaces lpr/lpd to be modifiable by parties not wishing to disclose those modifications in source form, but distribute them in object form only. Evidentally, there are people that have done this now and would most likely wish to do something similar with lprng if we were to import it. Do I have the gist of the objection understood? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 1:39:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAD437BECC for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23297 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA97323 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:39:41 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: removal of Global Message-ID: <20000627013941.B97283@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Due to GLOBAL moving from a BSD-like to GPL license, and the iffy-ness of its need in the base system; I would like to remove it. The GLOBAL author has changed the license he will distribute GLOBAL under. He wants it to be the official GNU GLOBAL, and with that came the license change. He will keep the existing version going on minor bug fixes only. But there will no major changes (ie, major version bump) under the BSD-like license. I know of virtually no one that actually *uses* Global, nor is Global a traditional CSRG-BSD offering. JKH did the original import of Global. He has said at the time he wanted a ctags equivalent capability, but he now says he doesn't any longer feel it needs to remain in the system. He said he would be happy to have it in ports. Last call? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 2: 0:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E3737BF4A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA08425 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:59:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Removing Objc Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While some of us are in an axe-happy mood, who else is in favour (or against) the removal of the Objective C stuff? Nothing in the base system uses it, and very few ports probably do (does anyone know of any?). We could easily make it a port for those that do. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 2: 5:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from thing.orbitel.bg (thing.orbitel.bg [195.24.32.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB82637BF50 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:05:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tacho@thing.orbitel.bg) Received: (qmail 9924 invoked by uid 1001); 27 Jun 2000 09:05:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:05:17 +0300 From: Stanislav Grozev To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing Objc Message-ID: <20000627120517.A9799@thing.orbitel.bg> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:59:53AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:59:53AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > While some of us are in an axe-happy mood, who else is in favour (or > against) the removal of the Objective C stuff? Nothing in the base system > uses it, and very few ports probably do (does anyone know of any?). We > could easily make it a port for those that do. > what's the gain? I for example use it for learning;-) btw. i don't mind a port, but what's the point of removing it from base? > Kris > -tacho -- [i don't follow] | daemonz.org/ | tacho@daemonz.org | 0x44FC3339 [everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler] [despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 2:22:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A259337BF39; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sos@freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA81210; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:22:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200006270922.LAA81210@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Removing Objc In-Reply-To: from Kris Kennaway at "Jun 27, 2000 01:59:53 am" To: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:22:24 +0200 (CEST) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Kris Kennaway wrote: > While some of us are in an axe-happy mood, who else is in favour (or > against) the removal of the Objective C stuff? Nothing in the base system > uses it, and very few ports probably do (does anyone know of any?). We > could easily make it a port for those that do. The problem is that we will then have a gcc dist that is different from the masses, its not _that_ easy to rip it out of the gcc distro.... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 2:54:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A507B37BF3C for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA23802 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id CAA14077 for arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:54:29 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing Objc Message-ID: <20000627025429.A14053@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:59:53AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:59:53AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > We could easily make it a port for those that do. The GNU bits we have in the base system are already part of the lang/egcs and lang/gcc-devel ports. There is also another implimentation in lang/objc. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 3:14:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7743537B9A4 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23547; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:10:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:10:31 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: Doug Barton Cc: Chuck Robey , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627051031.B22797@mppsystems.com> References: <39582BC2.CF2FF631@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <39582BC2.CF2FF631@gorean.org>; from DougB@gorean.org on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:21:22PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:21:22PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > Chuck Robey wrote: > > I just don't like gratuitously adding in extra GPL when there's no > > absolutely required reason for it. > > This says it all for me. I haven't seen a compelling argument that our > current lpd is flawed, just limited. That's not enough to justify bring > in GNU software, even under the artistic license. Anyone who needs > lprng's functionality can install the port, or apsfilter, or whatever > else will work for them. > > I strongly oppose the inclusion of lprng in the base. I just did a line count on the two different sources. Our current lpr is roughly 13,000 lines. LPRng is roughly 41,000 lines. Seems like quite a bit of bloat. One of the things I keep seeing in this thread is our lack of auditing for lpr/lpd/etc. I think we could probably add that to our current lpr & friends in much less than 28,000 lines of code. I've worked on our lpr before, and it didn't seem that obtuse to me, so if we wanted to add features to it, it shouldn't be that difficult. So I think this can count as a no "I don't think we should replace our current lpr" vote. But I'm not against trying to add some of LPRng's feature to our current lpr. On the other hand, perhaps this is something that sysinstall can deal with. Ask the use what type of printing queuing system they want to install. The traditional BSD lpr, or LPRng from ports/packages This could probably also be applied to other things, such as sendmail, so if someone went through the work to do it, it should be generic enough to support a variety different packages. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 3:46:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB79937B552 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:46:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA06220; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:46:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <200006261614.KAA19406@harmony.village.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Jun 2000 12:46:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:14:01 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > In message Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > : Wouldn't it be better to add socks support to fetch(1)? > It would be better, maybe, but harder. What's required for socks support? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 5:29:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ABD437BE7E; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [10.0.1.105]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742239B38; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bone.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2C13D1DC6; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:29:18 -0500 From: "Jacques A . Vidrine" To: David O'Brien Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627072917.A1919@bone.nectar.com> References: <20000626214900.G23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626221208.T5255@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000626195938.A78956@hub.freebsd.org>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:59:38PM -0700 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:59:38PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > The Artistic license. > We cannot say that this is a free software license because it is > too vague; some passages are too clever for their own good, and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > their meaning is not clear. We urge you to avoid using it, except ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > as part of the disjunctive license of Perl. The license must have been originally written in Perl, too! -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 7: 9:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C574937BF3E; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20601; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:09:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04044; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:09:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271409.IAA04044@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , papowell@astart.com, Doug@gorean.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> References: <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : > Looking at the rest of this thread, I thought I'd run through the > : > license to see if there were any gotchas. So far all the FUD I've > : > seen on the list seems to be false. > : > > : > : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code > : > : or executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the > : > : following: > : > : > : > : a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and > : > : library files, together with instructions (in the manual > : > : page or equivalent) on where to get the Standard Version. > : > : > : > : b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable > : > : source of the Package with your modifications. > : > > : > OK. > : > : If you're Joe's Print Server Corp you're not gonna be quite so willing to > : say "OK" to this. Do you really want your customers trying to upgrade > : your installation of LPRng on the ROMs in your Print Server ][ plus? > > We're not Joe's Print Server Corp. That's Joe's problem, not ours. No, it's ours, in that the software we have currently (which is used by Joe's Printer Server Corp.) works fine for Joe, and he has no licensing issues at all. (And it's not just JSPC that uses the lpr software, but also companies such as Whistle, Nokia, and others). > He can deliver the stock version of LPRng, or make arrangements with > the copyright holders, just like people that want to distribtue hacked > copies of perl w/o passing their changes back. Ahh, but if we could somehow convince the current copyright holder to use a more BSD like license, all of the above companies would be able to use alot more of FreeBSD 'out of the box' like they do know. LPRng is a step in the opposite direction as far as making their jobs easier. Think of the hassle it would be for you if your company used the lpr printer code inside of it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 7:18:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316F437BF3E; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20675; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:18:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04077; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:18:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:18:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Warner Losh Cc: Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> References: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : I'm surprised to hear this coming from you, actually. I disagree > : strongly that discouraging commercial vendors from being able to > : integrate "stock" parts of freebsd into their product is "not our > : problem." One of the drawing cards for freebsd is that commercial > : vendors _can_ take our code and use it in any manner they see fit. The > : list of exceptions is long enough already, I haven't seen a compelling > : reason to make it longer. > > I'd like to point out that FreeBSD isn't all Free. Significant > portions of the tree are covered by licenses that require changes be > disclosed. The compilers, binary utilities, awk, perl, and others > have this restriction. Ahh, but very few (if any) of them are needed in an embedded system. How many people are going to run 'grep' on an embedded system, or re-compile the source to the system? > Likewise there are parts of the system that don't even come as source > (the fla driver is one example). These are restrictions that people > must live with. Again, this isn't a problem in embedded systems, since you'd just go an avoid the driver in question. > Second, the ARTISTIC license does not preclude FreeBSD from including > LPRng. This statement is still true. We can comply with all the > terms of the license. The ARTISTIC license isn't that much different from the GPL from a commercial entities POV. For FreeBSD it is no different at all, since we ship with source. > Third, we have a crying need for a better print system. lpr/lpd are > hard to maintain and difficult to audit. This is the crux of the matter. > So we have to weigh the needs of most of the FreeBSD users against the > theoretical needs of a potential company wanting to make print servers > on a stick that requires them to hack lprng. Not just print server, but many others kinds of 'embedded' systems, that have use for the print server code. I'll mention the philisophical point and ask, what's the point of using a BSD copyright if we don't really care what happens with FreeBSD outside of the 'user base' that uses it for WWW servers, shell servers, and other non-embedded systems? These folks don't care what license is being used (for the most part), since they could just as easily use Linux (as far as licensing goes). The BSD license is 'commercial friendly', and those of us who chose to use it are 'giving away' our intellectual property with very few strings attached, and have very little agenda. This is the 'BSD way' (in contrast with the GPL way), and the more we get away from this, the more that FreeBSD will become yet another Linux-clone. FreeBSD (and the rest of the *BSDs) are more than just bits of software. They are also giving people a choice, and at this point in time the choice happens to be a much more robust piece of software. But, I still believe the choice of licensing is *AS* important as the functionality in the system. (And, they certainly aren't in conflict with each other.) That's one of the main reasons I did the BSD thing when Linux was at 0.11. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 8: 8:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4539F37C0A8 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12654; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) From: John Polstra Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA17811; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006271508.IAA17811@vashon.polstra.com> To: sos@freebsd.dk Subject: Re: Removing Objc In-Reply-To: <200006270922.LAA81210@freebsd.dk> References: <200006270922.LAA81210@freebsd.dk> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <200006270922.LAA81210@freebsd.dk>, Soren Schmidt wrote: > > The problem is that we will then have a gcc dist that is different > from the masses, its not _that_ easy to rip it out of the gcc > distro.... It used to be hard, but the egcs team really cleaned that up. Now it's very easy to remove individual languages. In fact, the objc portion of gcc is distributed as an entirely separate distfile these days. Likewise for g++, g77, java, etc. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 8:29:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F0637C22B; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:29:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26901; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:28:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Cc: Warner Losh , Wes Peters , papowell@astart.com, Doug@gorean.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:09:08 MDT." <200006271409.IAA04044@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:28:44 +0200 Message-ID: <26899.962119724@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200006271409.IAA04044@nomad.yogotech.com>, Nate Williams writes: >> We're not Joe's Print Server Corp. That's Joe's problem, not ours. > >No, it's ours, in that the software we have currently (which is used by >Joe's Printer Server Corp.) works fine for Joe, and he has no licensing >issues at all. If Joe is in the print server business, I am absolutely damn certain that he has made modifications to the lp{rdc} stuff we have in our tree, so I *seriously* doubt he would want to switch to LPRng in the first place. ... Unless he already has sorted out the license and is using LPRng. Should anybody be wildly emotionally attached to the current lp{rdc} stuff, they can always dig it out of the reposistory and make it a port if they feel like it. Lets get LPRng in and be done with it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 9: 9: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D9D37C091 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id JAA06004; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:08:21 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda06002; Tue Jun 27 09:08:08 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA32987; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006271608.JAA32987@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdM32972; Tue Jun 27 09:07:10 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Chuck Robey Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:32:53 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:07:10 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Chuck Robey writes: > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > > A suggestion I made, that only Patrick picked up on and which requires > > repeating, was to create lpr/lpc/lpd applications that were of similar > > structure to /usr/sbin/sendmail, which performed a table lookup, to > > find the real application to be used. > > > > The advantages would be that both lpr/lpd and LPRng, and by extension > > sendmail and postfix, could be included in base and administrators > > could use whichever application they wanted based upon functionality, > > security, license preference, or any other criteria. Even if only one > > print application were in the base, it would make making the other the > > default much easier. > > > > Wouldn't this compromise or a form of this compromise satisfy most > > everyone? > > Nope. Your suggestion is an adjunct to making software changeable, and > something like it has already been done for sendmail/postfix, but it > doesn't answer the question at all, merely makes changing things > easier. The question is, I remind you, whether or not to remove lpd and > replace it with lprng, now HOW to replace it. We can pretty much figure > out how. Calm down. I was saying that we don't have to replace anything. Both can live in FreeBSD side-by-side. The only downside to this is additional work required to maintain both and the additional space required. Hence the word compromise. > > Go take a look at /etc/mail/mailer.conf, or mailer.conf(5). Your basic > idea is just fine (something about imitation being flattery, like that). That's what I just said. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 9:18:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E2937C094; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA114768; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:18:29 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> References: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:18:57 -0400 To: Warner Losh , Doug Barton From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:25 AM -0600 6/27/00, Warner Losh wrote: >We have to ask ourselves the following sorts of questions: > 1) Is there a need? > 2) Will this fit the need? > 3) Is it better enough than what we have to kill what we have? > 4) a) Will the licensing restrictions cause someone to not use > FreeBSD? b) If so, do we care? > >1) and 2) are well known. The answer is clearly yes. Question 3 is >what we need to focus on, since it hasn't been answered due to the >licensing squabble. > >In answering question 4a, I ask myself what the alternatives are: > 1) Use NetBSD or OpenBSD and hack on lpr > 2) Use FreeBSD w/o lprng and hack on lpr from ports > 3) Use * and write your own printer queuing software > >If they choose (3) it doesn't matter what we have in FreeBSD since >otherwise they would have used an old copy of lpr, so the answer is >no. If they chose 2) then we answer 4a no again because they are >using FreeBSD. If their choice is (1), then it is strong evidence >that the license did matter. I would suspect that if they did do (1) >it would be for reasons other than the license on the default print >software in FreeBSD. So we wouldn't have won there anyway. > >So it looks like the answer to 4b is pretty close to "we don't care" >since none of the alternatives were impacted by the licensing of >FreeBSD default print queue software and that alone. I am not such a company, but I sorta act like one because I'm using freebsd's lpr on other systems. I think you move a bit too rapidly through your analysis. From the point of view of such a company, IF lpr is removed from the current system AND lprNG is brought into the current system, then that's a pretty clear indication that lpr is going to get even less attention than it does now. If the FreeBSD project doesn't want anything to do with lpr, then why am "I" (the company) going to sink my time into it? I would either switch to lpr under one of the other BSD's, or I *would* write my own from scratch. The point is that the decision to move lpr off into a port will influence my decisions. If I'm going to support it, I might as well start with a clean slate, or with an lpr that someone else is using. [btw, does Apple have it's own lpr for darwin? I know NeXTSTEP's print system has a number of features not in freebsd's, I wonder if Darwin/MacOS-10 still has those. I keep meaning to download the darwin sources to look through that] --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 9:20: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E554737C0EE for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA74681; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:19:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA46753; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:18:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271618.KAA46753@harmony.village.org> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "27 Jun 2000 12:46:19 +0200." References: <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <200006261614.KAA19406@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:18:02 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: : Warner Losh writes: : > In message Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: : > : Wouldn't it be better to add socks support to fetch(1)? : > It would be better, maybe, but harder. : : What's required for socks support? In looking at the problem a little, I'd have to hack both client and server side to deal with a tcp sendmsg. That seemed to be too hard :-(. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 9:44:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9CA37C3FF; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25235; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <3958D9DC.DA75504E@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:44:12 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0603 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> Doug Barton writes: > : I'm surprised to hear this coming from you, actually. I disagree > : strongly that discouraging commercial vendors from being able to > : integrate "stock" parts of freebsd into their product is "not our > : problem." One of the drawing cards for freebsd is that commercial > : vendors _can_ take our code and use it in any manner they see fit. The > : list of exceptions is long enough already, I haven't seen a compelling > : reason to make it longer. > > I'd like to point out that FreeBSD isn't all Free. A point which I readily concede. My question is, should we be working to make it more free, or adding more software that makes it less free? > Second, the ARTISTIC license does not preclude FreeBSD from including > LPRng. This statement is still true. We can comply with all the > terms of the license. I also conceded this point. > Third, we have a crying need for a better print system. This is where you lose me. I haven't seen this need demonstrated. Au contraire, I have seen many people say that the current lp* is good enough for them, or easily adaptable to their specific needs through the ports. In all my years of working with freebsd, including using it as a desktop at home I've not spent even 10 hours worrying about lpd. I've installed apsfilter at home, and added the jet direct card to the printcap at work.... voila. > lpr/lpd are hard to maintain and difficult to audit. I can't comment authoritatively on this, except to say that we do have volunteers willing (and apparently able) to hack on what we have. I would like to see them have the opportunity. > So we have to weigh the needs of most of the FreeBSD users against the > theoretical needs of a potential company wanting to make print servers > on a stick that requires them to hack lprng. You have left out the philosophical point. I think it's obvious that you don't see that as important (or important enough), but there are some of us who do. Perhaps in the end that's not enough of a reason to keep it out. I just personally feel that this would be a move in the wrong direction. This'll probably be my last post on this topic, since I'm now repeating myself. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 10:27:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDA237BA49; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA92280; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200006271726.KAA92280@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Jun 27, 2000 00:54:04 am" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), papowell@astart.com, Doug@gorean.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ... > : Granted, this is not the only customer base FreeBSD has, but it's a > : good, strong one and one that has contributed a lot. Let's try not to > : blow it for them. > > We shouldn't be afraid to import these sources based on this. > > Like I said before, if the server company wants to distribtue their > own hacked copy of LPRng, which isn't available at all, then they will > need to get a license from the copyright holder. Otherwise, they will > have to use lpr. Us including or not including lprng won't change that. > Actually, over time, FreeBSD is become less and less attractive as a base line to use for projects within commercial companies due to more and more GPL and GPL like contaimination. We have classified the ``Artistic License'' as if it was the GPL. It really is the GPL sans the virus if you look at it long enough. I know for the next time I am need to complete a RFP that I will have to look closely at these issues, and address them for the client. This use to be fairly simple to do for BSD, it has become much much harder as we now have several different chunks of code under different licenses, and going through the whole tree and untwisting things is getting harder and harder. One of the great things, that has been lost, that the CSRG did was to get people to ``contribute'' their code to the CSRG and/or UCB so that the UCB copyright could be put on it. Perhaps it is time to revist the past and find out how to do this again. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 10:35:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (207-167-15-66.dsl.worldgate.ca [207.167.15.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576FB37C141 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca) Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ab.ca (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e5RHZ0610440; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271735.e5RHZ0610440@orthanc.ab.ca> To: John Polstra Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing Objc In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:08:30 PDT." <200006271508.IAA17811@vashon.polstra.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:35:00 -0600 From: Lyndon Nerenberg Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "John" == John Polstra writes: John> It used to be hard, but the egcs team really cleaned that John> up. Now it's very easy to remove individual languages. In John> fact, the objc portion of gcc is distributed as an entirely John> separate distfile these days. Likewise for g++, g77, java, John> etc. Two questions come to mind: 1) How much disk bloat is eliminated by removing objc from the base? 2) How much bloat is regained by installing it as a port? #2 is my main concern. Would I have to bootstrap/install XX MB of egcs from ports to get objc? --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 10:42: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D689337C200; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip139.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.139]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24781; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:41:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3958E7A6.1C3CF1FA@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:43:02 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Warner Losh , Nik Clayton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <20000621221636.A4137@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <200006240653.AAA02110@harmony.village.org> <200006260448.WAA16149@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > At 10:48 PM -0600 6/25/00, Warner Losh wrote: > > > >I'm not sure who our lpr/lpd committer is, but I know that > >people have gotten their commit privs for less.... I'd be > >happy to sponsor you. > > Hmm. Well, I have this little voice whispering in the back > of my mind, with the warning "Be careful what you wish for, > you just may get it...". > > That said, I would be willing to find out what other things > I'd need to know to be a committer, what additional mailing > lists to join, etc. That's all in the mini-howto mailed to you when you get convicted, er, inducted. > I really am going to be rather busy for > a few more weeks here, so I'd probably have to start slow to > get the feel of how to do things. Heh. Some committers are not very active, but continue to exist for particular forms of expertise. My commit record is glacial, and yet still middle of the pack. > Still, I do have this long > list of changes that I'd like to move from "my lpr" to the > standard one, and I guess I'd rather be in the firing line > for those than waiting impatiently for someone else to have > the time to commit the changes. Sounds good to me. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 10:56:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FF137B693; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA75089; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:56:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA47455; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:54:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271754.LAA47455@harmony.village.org> To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:44:12 PDT." <3958D9DC.DA75504E@gorean.org> References: <3958D9DC.DA75504E@gorean.org> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:54:16 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3958D9DC.DA75504E@gorean.org> Doug Barton writes: : A point which I readily concede. My question is, should we be working : to make it more free, or adding more software that makes it less free? You have this point. : This is where you lose me. I haven't seen this need demonstrated. Au : contraire, I have seen many people say that the current lp* is good : enough for them, or easily adaptable to their specific needs through the : ports. In all my years of working with freebsd, including using it as a : desktop at home I've not spent even 10 hours worrying about lpd. I've : installed apsfilter at home, and added the jet direct card to the : printcap at work.... voila. I've spent about 50 hours looking at relatively simple patches to lpr/lpd to make sure they had no security implications. Turns out they did and it wasn't obvious at first. I guess that's my motivator. : I can't comment authoritatively on this, except to say that we do have : volunteers willing (and apparently able) to hack on what we have. I : would like to see them have the opportunity. Yes. And 3/4 of the tmie I get patches, I have to reject them because they introduce an inintended side effect that generally has security implications. : You have left out the philosophical point. I think it's obvious that : you don't see that as important (or important enough), but there are : some of us who do. Perhaps in the end that's not enough of a reason to : keep it out. I just personally feel that this would be a move in the : wrong direction. I actually had missed that point in my zeal. The new license will present a problem for those people that want to enahce the default print system of FreeBSD, which goes against the grain of what we try to do. It likely would be best to table the license issue and revisit it if there's an overwhleming technical reason to include lprng. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 10:57:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A5C37B7FD for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA49822; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:52:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:52:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006271608.JAA32987@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > Nope. Your suggestion is an adjunct to making software changeable, and > > something like it has already been done for sendmail/postfix, but it > > doesn't answer the question at all, merely makes changing things > > easier. The question is, I remind you, whether or not to remove lpd and > > replace it with lprng, now HOW to replace it. We can pretty much figure > > out how. > > Calm down. ?? I'm not angry, what gave you that idea? I was saying that we don't have to replace anything. Both > can live in FreeBSD side-by-side. The only downside to this is > additional work required to maintain both and the additional space > required. Hence the word compromise. You suggested a method of allowing print to be set more easily, you didn't suggest that BOTH get kept in FreeBSD's base system. I think the chance that we'd have two different versions of print software pretty small; the anti-bloatists would go berserk. They'd be right, too, when it would be pretty simple to just choose. If we did keep 2, next week we'd be asked to bring in a third. Heck, personally, I like apsfilter. No, adding a second only postpones the problem, it's not a solution. Making it easier to choose, maybe, but choosing 2? I don't think so. A solution in the vein you're talking about might put the print tools into a separately installed piece, one that would allow (require?) a user to choose their poison (to coin a phrase). I might get along easier with that one, but the folks who want to make install simpler the easier, they'd probably veto it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 10:58:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACED437C17A; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA75099; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:58:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA47478; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:18:07 MDT." <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> References: <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:56:33 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> Nate Williams writes: : > : I'm surprised to hear this coming from you, actually. I disagree : > : strongly that discouraging commercial vendors from being able to : > : integrate "stock" parts of freebsd into their product is "not our : > : problem." One of the drawing cards for freebsd is that commercial : > : vendors _can_ take our code and use it in any manner they see fit. The : > : list of exceptions is long enough already, I haven't seen a compelling : > : reason to make it longer. : > : > I'd like to point out that FreeBSD isn't all Free. Significant : > portions of the tree are covered by licenses that require changes be : > disclosed. The compilers, binary utilities, awk, perl, and others : > have this restriction. : : Ahh, but very few (if any) of them are needed in an embedded system. : How many people are going to run 'grep' on an embedded system, or : re-compile the source to the system? There are many instances of awk and grep in the startup scripts :-(. : > Likewise there are parts of the system that don't even come as source : > (the fla driver is one example). These are restrictions that people : > must live with. : : Again, this isn't a problem in embedded systems, since you'd just go an : avoid the driver in question. Unless you have to deal with the fla device, which is common in embedded systems. Then it either works or it doesn't. : > Second, the ARTISTIC license does not preclude FreeBSD from including : > LPRng. This statement is still true. We can comply with all the : > terms of the license. : : The ARTISTIC license isn't that much different from the GPL from a : commercial entities POV. For FreeBSD it is no different at all, since : we ship with source. Yes. I hadn't realized that part of it last night. I'm rethinking my position on things. : That's one of the main reasons I did the BSD thing when Linux was at : 0.11. Got me beat. I waited until 0.98q or so until I made the jump to dual boot and never did upgrade to 1.0 but instead reclaimed the disk space. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 11:45:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A5D37B532 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25978; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA92370; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:44:56 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Lyndon Nerenberg Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing Objc Message-ID: <20000627114456.A60692@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006271508.IAA17811@vashon.polstra.com> <200006271735.e5RHZ0610440@orthanc.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006271735.e5RHZ0610440@orthanc.ab.ca>; from lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:35:00AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:35:00AM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Two questions come to mind: > 1) How much disk bloat is eliminated by removing objc from the base? Probably not much. > 2) How much bloat is regained by installing it as a port? More. > #2 is my main concern. Would I have to bootstrap/install XX MB of egcs from > ports to get objc? "Yes" if you want the GNU version. "No" if you want the other implimentation. The Question that should come to mind is *why* is it in the base system. And why should we spend the time during a `make world' to build it? People generally want a faster buildworld, and I've only received one ObjC question in 1.5 years. So I wonder how many people use it. I don't care much one way or the other. But these are questions others seem to be asking. Notice that I have not brought in the Java compiler that is part of the new GCC 2.95. Nor would I bring in the Ada compiler or Pascal compiler when they become part of GCC (which now stands for GNU Compiler Collection, note the all caps now). -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 11:48:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DDDE37B61F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25995; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA92386; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:48:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:48:40 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Warner Losh Cc: Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:56:33AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:56:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > : Ahh, but very few (if any) of them are needed in an embedded system. > : How many people are going to run 'grep' on an embedded system, or > : re-compile the source to the system? > > There are many instances of awk and grep in the startup scripts :-(. I am more than willing to bring the One True AWK into src/contrib/ to kick out GNU AWK. So that would be one down, one to go. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 12: 0:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4112E37C2F2; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA75423; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:00:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA48082; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:58:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271858.MAA48082@harmony.village.org> To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:48:40 PDT." <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:58:16 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: : On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:56:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: : > : Ahh, but very few (if any) of them are needed in an embedded system. : > : How many people are going to run 'grep' on an embedded system, or : > : re-compile the source to the system? : > : > There are many instances of awk and grep in the startup scripts :-(. : : I am more than willing to bring the One True AWK into src/contrib/ to : kick out GNU AWK. So that would be one down, one to go. And there is the grep replacement waitnig in the wings, iirc. Whatever happened to that? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 12: 1:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peedub.muc.de (p3E9B8F20.dip.t-dialin.net [62.155.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FB937C009 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA61349 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:56:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006271856.UAA61349@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: removal of Global Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:39:41 PDT." <20000627013941.B97283@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:56:38 +0200 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David O'Brien" writes: >I know of virtually no one that actually *uses* Global, nor is Global a >traditional CSRG-BSD offering. JKH did the original import of Global. >He has said at the time he wanted a ctags equivalent capability, but he >now says he doesn't any longer feel it needs to remain in the system. He >said he would be happy to have it in ports. > >Last call? > nuke it, the port is good enough IMHO. --- Gary Jennejohn / garyj@muc.de gj@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 12:17:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47DE37BC62 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26163; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA92570; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:17:25 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627121724.B92427@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006271858.MAA48082@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006271858.MAA48082@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:58:16PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:58:16PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > And there is the grep replacement waitnig in the wings, iirc. > Whatever happened to that? Still being worked on to provide 100% of the GNU Grep functionality and speed. But the current freegrep does give embeded users a choice if they need it. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 12:29:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94EB37C1D6 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:29:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA75601 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:29:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA48425 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:27:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006271927.NAA48425@harmony.village.org> To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Moving pccardd/pccardc to sbin Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:27:37 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'd like to move pccardd/pccardc to sbin. This allows people booting diskless to do so and has a few other advantages. I'd also like to move pccardd startup earlier in the boot process. Same benefits. I'd like to do this in 4.1 as well. I can't htink of any reasoon not do to do this. It will require a line in the UPDATING file instructing people to delete the old pccardd, but other than that the upgrade path is covered. There's a small chance it might break old scripts, but a soltuion similar to mknode might work well. Comments? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 13: 7:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C63C37B642; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:07:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26616; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt052n3e.san.rr.com To: Warner Losh Cc: papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006271754.LAA47455@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <3958D9DC.DA75504E@gorean.org> Doug Barton writes: > : A point which I readily concede. My question is, should we be working > : to make it more free, or adding more software that makes it less free? > > You have this point. Wha, thank you saaaahhh :) > I've spent about 50 hours looking at relatively simple patches to > lpr/lpd to make sure they had no security implications. Turns out > they did and it wasn't obvious at first. I guess that's my motivator. *Nod* I had a feeling that part of your motivation came from your security officer hat, but I wouldn't have pointed that out if you hadn't volunteered it. > : I can't comment authoritatively on this, except to say that we do have > : volunteers willing (and apparently able) to hack on what we have. I > : would like to see them have the opportunity. > > Yes. And 3/4 of the tmie I get patches, I have to reject them because > they introduce an inintended side effect that generally has security > implications. That's why you 'da man! :) The more I learn about C, and trying to make unix apps secure the more amazed I get. If I may, I think that while on the one hand having someone else responsible for the "maintenance" of the lp* code relieve some of this burden, at the same time it introduces a number of new ones. I'm not qualified to say whether there is a profit on either side of the equation (that's really your call) but we're not eliminating a class of problems, just substituting them. > : You have left out the philosophical point. I think it's obvious that > : you don't see that as important (or important enough), but there are > : some of us who do. Perhaps in the end that's not enough of a reason to > : keep it out. I just personally feel that this would be a move in the > : wrong direction. > > I actually had missed that point in my zeal. Yeah, thence my surprise. This is one of the problems with the GNU philosophy... it all _sounds_ like a good idea, till you read the fine print. I remember when I first started looking at that stuff, back in my OS/2 days. Even the name is clever, "Artistic License." That's good stuff. Although I have to say, "General Public Virus/GPV" is the funniest software-related thing I've heard in a while... Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 13:49:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8715437B73F; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:49:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5RKnfe22073; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:49:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA20003; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:21:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:21:08 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "David O'Brien" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removal of Global Message-ID: <20000627222108.J307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <20000627013941.B97283@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000627013941.B97283@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@freebsd.org on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:39:41AM -0700 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000627 12:02], David O'Brien (obrien@freebsd.org) wrote: >Due to GLOBAL moving from a BSD-like to GPL license, and the iffy-ness of >its need in the base system; I would like to remove it. [snip] >Last call? Remove it please. I personally was not witnessed much people using it. If at all. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Heart is the engine of your body, but Mind is the engine of Life... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 14: 4:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DC137C2A1; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id OAA07091; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:03:49 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda07087; Tue Jun 27 14:03:38 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA35169; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006272103.OAA35169@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdU35163; Tue Jun 27 14:02:48 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:48:40 PDT." <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:02:48 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:56:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > : Ahh, but very few (if any) of them are needed in an embedded system. > > : How many people are going to run 'grep' on an embedded system, or > > : re-compile the source to the system? > > > > There are many instances of awk and grep in the startup scripts :-(. > > I am more than willing to bring the One True AWK into src/contrib/ to > kick out GNU AWK. So that would be one down, one to go. What about GNU sort? About 5 years ago, when I switched from Linux to FreeBSD, I had a file that, for some unknown reason, wouldn't sort into the right sequence with GNU sort -- it was the weirdest thing. Building and installing a copy 4.4BSD sort from a 4.4BSD CDROM solved the weird little problem at the time. Every other file I've sorted with GNU sort since then has had no problems being sorted. One of the things on my todo list is to build a 4.4BSD sort port [I'm a poet and don't even know it :) ] which would have the features of GNU sort but with a BSD license and hopefully not the bug I found 5 years ago. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 14:57:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA7F37BB50; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA71740; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD sort(1) (Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: <200006272103.OAA35169@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > One of the things on my todo list is to build a 4.4BSD sort port [I'm a > poet and don't even know it :) ] which would have the features of GNU > sort but with a BSD license and hopefully not the bug I found 5 years > ago. Open and NetBSD use a modified 4.4BSD sort(1) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:13:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C7637B6AF for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA07349 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:13:11 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda07345; Tue Jun 27 15:12:53 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA36120 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdx36117; Tue Jun 27 15:12:08 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:12:07 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Would we be interested in doing this? http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#softdepsmount Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:18:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D5A37BC20; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm016-005.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.213]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13313; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:18:26 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 49C701912; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:16:39 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627181639.I29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:48:40AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:48:40AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > I am more than willing to bring the One True AWK into src/contrib/ to > kick out GNU AWK. So that would be one down, one to go. What about grep? :-) I don't see any chance we'll ever get rid of GNU GCC though.. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:20:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDD937BB50; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA07367; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:20:11 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda07361; Tue Jun 27 15:19:54 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA36150; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006272219.PAA36150@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdN36144; Tue Jun 27 15:18:58 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , obrien@FreeBSD.org, Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD sort(1) (Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:57:29 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:18:58 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Kri s Kennaway writes: > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > > One of the things on my todo list is to build a 4.4BSD sort port [I'm a > > poet and don't even know it :) ] which would have the features of GNU > > sort but with a BSD license and hopefully not the bug I found 5 years > > ago. > > Open and NetBSD use a modified 4.4BSD sort(1) Seems like the path of least resistance for now. I'll check it out. Thanks. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:21:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3852737BE79 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 49FA61C65; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:21:20 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000627182120.U18942@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:12:07PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:12:07PM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > Would we be interested in doing this? > > http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#softdepsmount The answer from Kirk is already no. Search the mailing lists, this was discussed this past week. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:33: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98CF37B95E for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:32:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14470; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:32:45 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Will Andrews Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627153245.A14375@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <20000627181639.I29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000627181639.I29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:16:39PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:16:39PM -0400, Will Andrews wrote: > What about grep? :-) A BSD version is in the pipeline, IIRC. I don't know what's happened to it. > I don't see any chance we'll ever get rid of GNU GCC though.. We were discussing awk and grep because they're used in the system startup scripts, and hence of interest to people building embedded systems. The compiler isn't. Matt -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:38:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D5337BA09 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm016-005.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.213]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23407; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:37:55 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BE8D31912; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:36:08 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627183608.J29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006271756.LAA47478@harmony.village.org> <20000627114840.B60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <20000627181639.I29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000627153245.A14375@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000627153245.A14375@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:32:45PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:32:45PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > A BSD version is in the pipeline, IIRC. I don't know what's > happened to it. That's cool, hopefully it'll be imported one way or another. > We were discussing awk and grep because they're used in the > system startup scripts, and hence of interest to people building > embedded systems. The compiler isn't. Ok. That's putting things in perspective. :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:53:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A2237BEBD; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5RMrTK26158; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA25446; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25442; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:53:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:53:28 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Will Andrews Cc: "David O'Brien" , Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000627181639.I29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > What about grep? :-) http://www.james-howard.com/display.html?page=grep.html Patches welcome :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:56:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C0937B5CE for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip176.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.176]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25507; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:56:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39593177.336E28E9@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:57:59 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: > : Warner Losh wrote: > : > > : > Looking at the rest of this thread, I thought I'd run through the > : > license to see if there were any gotchas. So far all the FUD I've > : > seen on the list seems to be false. > : > > : > : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code > : > : or executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the > : > : following: > : > : > : > : a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and > : > : library files, together with instructions (in the manual > : > : page or equivalent) on where to get the Standard Version. > : > : > : > : b) accompany the distribution with the machine-readable > : > : source of the Package with your modifications. > : > > : > OK. > : > : If you're Joe's Print Server Corp you're not gonna be quite so willing to > : say "OK" to this. Do you really want your customers trying to upgrade > : your installation of LPRng on the ROMs in your Print Server ][ plus? > > We're not Joe's Print Server Corp. That's Joe's problem, not ours. > He can deliver the stock version of LPRng, or make arrangements with > the copyright holders, just like people that want to distribtue hacked > copies of perl w/o passing their changes back. But the rub is - does the activity of porting it to FreeBSD make it a changed version? I'm well aware that the FreeBSD standard versions are re-released to the public, but none of that has anything to do with this section 4. As the FSF notes, this is an incredibly poorly written license. I'm certain you're interpreting it as the authors MEANT it to be interpreted, but it DOESN'T SAY THAT. > Like I said before, if the server company wants to distribtue their > own hacked copy of LPRng, which isn't available at all, then they will > need to get a license from the copyright holder. Otherwise, they will > have to use lpr. Us including or not including lprng won't change that. The problem is not with their own hacked copy of LPRng, but that they (potentially) can't distribute the FreeBSD version. I'm staring at this with Perl on a closely related ;^) platform at the moment, and it is quite a problem. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 15:59:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FCA37BEFD for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip176.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.176]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25519; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:59:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:00:24 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <200006270744.BAA32993@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > -------- > I hate to follow up to myself. > > I did want to add that if my logic on why the license doesn't matter > is faulty somehow, I would like to know. The one problem that I see > people bringing up is the desire for anything that replaces lpr/lpd to > be modifiable by parties not wishing to disclose those modifications > in source form, but distribute them in object form only. > > Evidentally, there are people that have done this now and would most > likely wish to do something similar with lprng if we were to import > it. > > Do I have the gist of the objection understood? No. See my moments-previous rant about why you may not be able to distribute the "FreeBSD standard LPRng" in a binary product. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 16: 3:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4A737BEE8 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip176.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.176]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25533; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:03:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:04:39 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Warner Losh , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams wrote: > > FreeBSD (and the rest of the *BSDs) are more than just bits of software. > They are also giving people a choice, and at this point in time the > choice happens to be a much more robust piece of software. But, I still > believe the choice of licensing is *AS* important as the functionality > in the system. (And, they certainly aren't in conflict with each > other.) If we continue to migrate important parts of FreeBSD to licenses more restrictive than the BSD license, we may find ourselves losing embedded design wins to other BSD systems. If that's what the FreeBSD user base wants, so be it, but I suspect it is at odds with the wants and needs of Whistle, Nokia, Apple (maybe), and BSDi (in particular). > That's one of the main reasons I did the BSD thing when Linux was at > 0.11. One. Functionality was way up there, too. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 16:16:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BAB37C06F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA76644; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:16:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA50246; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:16:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006272316.RAA50246@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:57:59 MDT." <39593177.336E28E9@softweyr.com> References: <39593177.336E28E9@softweyr.com> <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:16:22 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <39593177.336E28E9@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : But the rub is - does the activity of porting it to FreeBSD make it a : changed version? I'm well aware that the FreeBSD standard versions are : re-released to the public, but none of that has anything to do with this : section 4. No. It is OK. If you use an unmodified version, all you gotta do is toss a cdrom in your ftp server worst case. Or you could say "just grab it from here, that's the version taht we use." And you'd be in compliance for it. : The problem is not with their own hacked copy of LPRng, but that they : (potentially) can't distribute the FreeBSD version. I'm staring at this : with Perl on a closely related ;^) platform at the moment, and it is : quite a problem. No. I think you are incorrectly reading it. One could easily argue that if one distributes the FereBSD version one is in compliance with the license. Why? Because your distribution service is ftp.freebsd.org. It is completely identical to you putting it up yourself in terms of effect. Your customers would get exactly the same bits as they would directly from you. There's nothing that says that you must be the agent of distribution, only that it must be distributed. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 16:29: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E4A37B6D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA76684; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:28:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA50308; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:28:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006272328.RAA50308@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:00:24 MDT." <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> References: <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> <200006270744.BAA32993@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:28:50 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : > : > -------- : > I hate to follow up to myself. : > : > I did want to add that if my logic on why the license doesn't matter : > is faulty somehow, I would like to know. The one problem that I see : > people bringing up is the desire for anything that replaces lpr/lpd to : > be modifiable by parties not wishing to disclose those modifications : > in source form, but distribute them in object form only. : > : > Evidentally, there are people that have done this now and would most : > likely wish to do something similar with lprng if we were to import : > it. : > : > Do I have the gist of the objection understood? : : No. See my moments-previous rant about why you may not be able to : distribute the "FreeBSD standard LPRng" in a binary product. I think you misunderstand. If I distribute the modified version of lprng that is in FreeBSD, but make no further changes to it in my product, then I am in compliance with the license. Why? Because it says that the sources to my version must be distributed. ftp.freebsd.org is the distribution mechanism. So long as the CVS tree is available, one could say that you are in compliance. : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code or : executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the following: One could argue that embedding this software in a package isn't distributing it, so section 4 doesn't apply. However, since you aren't granted the right to embed it in a product, this might backfire. : a) distribute a Standard Version of the executables and library files, : together with instructions (in the manual page or equivalent) on where : to get the Standard Version. I think it is a standard version. Check out this definition: "Standard Version" refers to such a Package if it has not been modified, or has been modified in accordance with the wishes of the Copyright Holder as specified below. Since the FreeBSD version of LPRng has been modified in accordance with the wishes of the Copyright Holder as granted in section 3A, I think you're use of the bog standard FreeBSD is using a "Standard Version" within the meaning of the license. Section 3A: a) place your modifications in the Public Domain or otherwise make them Freely Available, such as by posting said modifications to Usenet or an equivalent medium, or placing the modifications on a major archive site such as uunet.uu.net, or by allowing the Copyright Holder to include your modifications in the Standard Version of the Package. The Freely Available clause is satisified by the archive at ftp.freebsd.org. This assumes that FreeBSD complies with the rest of Section 3 (the prominent notice clauses, which one could argue is automatically satisifed by the cvs ,v file since it logs everything that you did to the file). Also we'd comply with the "allowing the Copyright Holder" clause as well as the major archive clause. I think this logic would be upheld in court because things are fairly clear from the definitions. Not perfectly good, but the intent takes over when the exact language of the contract isn't perfectly clear. I'm not a lwayer, so you'll need to consult one to render a legal opinion. So you are left with what to do if you hack LPRng and don't wish to distribute the changes at all ni source form. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 16:29:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9114737BF32 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:29:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA76689; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:29:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA50325; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:29:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:04:39 MDT." <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> References: <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:29:19 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : If we continue to migrate important parts of FreeBSD to licenses more : restrictive than the BSD license, we may find ourselves losing embedded : design wins to other BSD systems. If that's what the FreeBSD user base : wants, so be it, but I suspect it is at odds with the wants and needs : of Whistle, Nokia, Apple (maybe), and BSDi (in particular). While I am arguing about th Artistic license, I think you are right. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 16:44:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E48737C00D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10454; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:29:19 MDT." <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:44:47 -0700 Message-ID: <10451.962149487@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I've certainly seen more "I'm against it!" cries than I've seen "I'm for it!", leading me towards thinking that maybe it's Just Not Worth It and the standard lpr is just fine and can be augmented by apsfilter for those who want more out of it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 16:50:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0516C37C03F; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm016-005.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.213]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05994; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:50:40 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1643119B6; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:28:05 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: James Howard Cc: Will Andrews , "David O'Brien" , Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627192805.A42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000627181639.I29332@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@glue.umd.edu on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:53:28PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:53:28PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > http://www.james-howard.com/display.html?page=grep.html > > Patches welcome :) Nice! Maybe this can be imported and GNU grep dropkicked out. ;) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 17:19:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4392737C5D7 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25770; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:18:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07039; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:18:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:18:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006280018.SAA07039@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Wes Peters Cc: Nate Williams , Warner Losh , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> References: <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > FreeBSD (and the rest of the *BSDs) are more than just bits of software. > > That's one of the main reasons I did the BSD thing when Linux was at > > 0.11. > > One. Functionality was way up there, too. ;^) Actually, BSD on x86 wasn't much there back in early Linux versions. I was working on BSD-on-386 (a mailing list which Wolfgang Schrenk (sp?) sponsored), which disappeared when Bill Jolitz released 386BSD, since his work was much further ahead than ours. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 18:11:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9059337B6B0 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 1376Nf-000GqS-00; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:11:07 +0700 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:11:07 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Moving pccardd/pccardc to sbin In-Reply-To: <200006271927.NAA48425@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > I'd like to move pccardd/pccardc to sbin. This allows people booting > diskless to do so and has a few other advantages. I'd also like to > move pccardd startup earlier in the boot process. Same benefits. Yes, that would be nice. The only problem is the space available on the / mount for already existing installations. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 18:45:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5646937C56D; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5S1jRR29755; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA02315; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02311; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:45:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Will Andrews Cc: "David O'Brien" , Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000627192805.A42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:53:28PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > http://www.james-howard.com/display.html?page=grep.html > > > > Patches welcome :) > > Nice! Maybe this can be imported and GNU grep dropkicked out. ;) It's currently slower than GNU and the current version has some bugs. However, there was a bug-free (in other words, we never found any) in the collection, but it was slower. Every previous version is on that FTP site listed on the webpage. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 20: 9:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B22437B598 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm016-005.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.213]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28724; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:08:16 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D221719A6; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:06:28 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Warner Losh , Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000627230628.F42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> <10451.962149487@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <10451.962149487@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:44:47PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:44:47PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Well, I've certainly seen more "I'm against it!" cries than I've seen > "I'm for it!", leading me towards thinking that maybe it's Just Not > Worth It and the standard lpr is just fine and can be augmented by > apsfilter for those who want more out of it. I concur. My motivation for originally supporting LPRng was because the 26,000 lines of code extra (or whatever it was) was much less than the amount of junk apsfilter installs that I don't need. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 20:15:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A593037C36F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA77461; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:15:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA51742; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:15:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006280315.VAA51742@harmony.village.org> To: Will Andrews Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:06:28 EDT." <20000627230628.F42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000627230628.F42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> <10451.962149487@localhost> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:15:38 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000627230628.F42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Will Andrews writes: : On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:44:47PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: : > Well, I've certainly seen more "I'm against it!" cries than I've seen : > "I'm for it!", leading me towards thinking that maybe it's Just Not : > Worth It and the standard lpr is just fine and can be augmented by : > apsfilter for those who want more out of it. : : I concur. : : My motivation for originally supporting LPRng was because the 26,000 : lines of code extra (or whatever it was) was much less than the amount : of junk apsfilter installs that I don't need. I'm starting to agree. We also have a new lpr maintainer on deck, so I think that lpr/lpd stuff will be much better handled in the future now that we have someone "fulltime" to look at it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 20:35:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED57237BF55; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA60677; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:35:02 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Will Andrews Cc: James Howard , "David O'Brien" , Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000627192805.A42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:53:28PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > http://www.james-howard.com/display.html?page=grep.html > > > > Patches welcome :) > > Nice! Maybe this can be imported and GNU grep dropkicked out. ;) Seconded! ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tommorow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 27 20:46:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A3937C52A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA77614; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:46:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA00467; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:46:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006280346.VAA00467@harmony.village.org> To: Boris Popov Subject: Re: Moving pccardd/pccardc to sbin Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:11:07 +0700." References: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:46:47 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Boris Popov writes: : On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Warner Losh wrote: : : > I'd like to move pccardd/pccardc to sbin. This allows people booting : > diskless to do so and has a few other advantages. I'd also like to : > move pccardd startup earlier in the boot process. Same benefits. : : Yes, that would be nice. The only problem is the space available : on the / mount for already existing installations. Hmmm. pccardd is 101k and pccardc is 75k. I don't think too many people will notice. Now, if we were talking about the install floppies... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 0:48:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freesbee.wheel.dk (freesbee.wheel.dk [193.162.159.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86B837BDF4 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:48:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesper@skriver.dk) Received: by freesbee.wheel.dk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5B79C3E4A; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:48:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:48:41 +0200 From: Jesper Skriver To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:12:07PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:12:07PM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > Would we be interested in doing this? > > http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#softdepsmount The short: no It has been discussed several times over the last week or so, and Kirk had good arguments for not doing it - the mail archive is your friend. /Jesper -- Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456 Work: Network manager @ AS3292 (Tele Danmark DataNetworks) Private: Geek @ AS2109 (A much smaller network ;-) One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 1:12:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283BE37C10D for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA99195; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00986; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200006270941.CAA00986@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: RE: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Jun-00 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > In order to have a kld add a new filetype (DTYPE_VNODE, DTYPE_PIPE, > etc.) it needs to generate a unique number. Ummm, what happened to fixing the kernel code to not need a type but to add the appropriate vfsops as Peter suggested during the BSDi hospitality thingie at Usenix? That solution avoids the need for filetypes at all and provides the cleaner solution. IIRC, the primary offender was sendfile(). -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 1:12:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2DB37B5A9 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA99210; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00983; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200006270941.CAA00983@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2991.962038326@localhost> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Jun-00 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Could someone just enumerate the advantages of importing LPRng? It > > It does everything that lpr and apsfilter do combined, right out of > the box. That is to say that all we would need to do is add a printer > setup dialog to sysinstall which lets you pick your printer type and > then the rest would be largely a matter of installing a few external > dependency packages, like ghostscript, and users could print > everything from jpeg files to EPS without having to know much, if > anything, about it. Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? > That is, at least to me, the biggest advantage. > > - Jordan -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 1:15:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810B837B5A9 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29620; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:11:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:11:06 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: Will Andrews Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Warner Losh , Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000628031106.A29494@mppsystems.com> References: <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> <10451.962149487@localhost> <20000627230628.F42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000627230628.F42285@argon.gryphonsoft.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:06:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:06:28PM -0400, Will Andrews wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:44:47PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Well, I've certainly seen more "I'm against it!" cries than I've seen > > "I'm for it!", leading me towards thinking that maybe it's Just Not > > Worth It and the standard lpr is just fine and can be augmented by > > apsfilter for those who want more out of it. > > I concur. > > My motivation for originally supporting LPRng was because the 26,000 > lines of code extra (or whatever it was) was much less than the amount > of junk apsfilter installs that I don't need. And if you were willing to install apsfilter in the first place, then you probably wouldn't have a problem with installing LPRng from ports, either. I wouldn't mind seeing our lpr do some of the things apsfilter/LPRng does. Years ago, apsfilter was tiny, but it did everything I needed/wanted it to do. That old version would suit me fine today. Unfortunately, apsfilter has also become *very* bloated. Having worked on problems with lpr/lpd in the past, I would rather stick with a more mature piece of software, rather than bring in something new. I'm also willing to test/review changes to our current lpr/lpd, since I've worked on it/used it in the past, under various BSD systems. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 1:28:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bastard.co.uk (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875A337B5EC; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@bastard.co.uk) Received: from adrian by mail.bastard.co.uk with local (Exim 3.14 #1) id 137DD5-000GL1-00; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:28:39 +0200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:28:39 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: John Baldwin Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Message-ID: <20000628102839.H58428@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000626142428.A275@fw.wintelcom.net> <200006270941.CAA00986@john.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006270941.CAA00986@john.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:28AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 26-Jun-00 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > In order to have a kld add a new filetype (DTYPE_VNODE, DTYPE_PIPE, > > etc.) it needs to generate a unique number. > > Ummm, what happened to fixing the kernel code to not need a type > but to add the appropriate vfsops as Peter suggested during the > BSDi hospitality thingie at Usenix? That solution avoids the need > for filetypes at all and provides the cleaner solution. IIRC, the > primary offender was sendfile(). Hrm. Can you go into a little more detail for us non-USENIXians? Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 2:30:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0F037B8E0 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 5E4A62DC10; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DDD2C7818; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:25:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB90210E17 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:25:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:25:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: RFC: Dynamic sysctls, next round Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, http://www.freebsd.org/~abial/dyn_sysctl.tgz These patches provide support for fully dynamic sysctl manipulation. They are based on ideas of several people, including Arun Sharma, Jonathan Lemon and Doug Rabson. Thank you, guys! You can create and delete new sysctl_oid's at run time. There can be multiple users of subtrees (the oids keep a reference count). There is also a framework to help you keep track of already created oids (called 'context' - thanks to dfr for suggesting this!). These patches require fresh -current (as of 28 June 2000). You need to patch your /sys, then rebuild the kernel and restart with it. Then you should be able to load and unload example module that adds a couple of sysctl oids to the tree (check with sysctl -a). Please provide your comments. Thanks! Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 2:48:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E83737BB02; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA66764; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:48:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Warner Losh Cc: Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > Second, the ARTISTIC license does not preclude FreeBSD from including > LPRng. This statement is still true. We can comply with all the > terms of the license. *We* can also comply with all the terms of the GPL. :-) If you're willing to say "any third party commercial vendor who can't comply with the terms of the LPRng license is free to replace it" then we might as well just not worry about licensing issues at all and include GPL code whenever it exists to fill a need, regardless of alternatives. I don't think this is a PoV shared by the wider FreeBSD community. > Third, we have a crying need for a better print system. lpr/lpd are > hard to maintain and difficult to audit. Is LPRng easier to maintain and audit? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 3:21: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB4437B5E3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 137Exd-000CPf-00; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:20:49 +0200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:20:49 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Dynamic sysctls, next round Message-ID: <20000628122049.A47648@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abial@webgiro.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 11:25:39AM +0200 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed 2000-06-28 (11:25), Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > These patches provide support for fully dynamic sysctl manipulation. > They are based on ideas of several people, including Arun Sharma, > Jonathan Lemon and Doug Rabson. Thank you, guys! I've had something like this for a few weeks, but yours is much better, I think. My only comment is that I don't see the need for the 'nbr' fields, as we should always use OID_AUTO. Otherwise, this will greatly simplify my life. (: Now if you can create a method to only walk through the direct children, and not the children's children too, I can show my irq/drq/iomem/ioport exportation via sysctl and the userland 'sysinfo' without shuddering at the ugly code. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 5:10:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D4637B509 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 05:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id E7A2C2DC0F; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:16:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 506A27817; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:07:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D70E10E17; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:07:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:07:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Dynamic sysctls, next round In-Reply-To: <20000628122049.A47648@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Wed 2000-06-28 (11:25), Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > These patches provide support for fully dynamic sysctl manipulation. > > They are based on ideas of several people, including Arun Sharma, > > Jonathan Lemon and Doug Rabson. Thank you, guys! > > I've had something like this for a few weeks, but yours is much better, > I think. > > My only comment is that I don't see the need for the 'nbr' fields, as we > should always use OID_AUTO. You mean 'in the macros', right? Well, I'm not sure. There are reserved oids that are currently allocated statically, that perhaps might be moved to dynamic allocation, but still they would need to use their original oid number (some userland utilities use oids instead of names). Also, I think removing them from macros could cause more confusion than necessary... or not... Other than that, I agree. :-) > > Otherwise, this will greatly simplify my life. (: > > Now if you can create a method to only walk through the direct children, > and not the children's children too, I can show my irq/drq/iomem/ioport > exportation via sysctl and the userland 'sysinfo' without shuddering at > the ugly code. This issue doesn't depend on the dynamic vs. static allocation. It's rather an issue of knowing a little secret: in struct sysctl_oid, for oids type of CTLTYPE_NODE the *arg1 points to a singly-linked list containing all children. You can just traverse this, and you're set. I defined a helpful macro SYSCTL_CHILDREN(struct sysctl_oid *parent) that returns the head of the list, if any. Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 6:11:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A4437B71E for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 137HcV-000IRA-00; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:11:11 +0700 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:11:11 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Dynamic sysctls, next round In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > You can create and delete new sysctl_oid's at run time. There can be > multiple users of subtrees (the oids keep a reference count). There is > also a framework to help you keep track of already created oids (called > 'context' - thanks to dfr for suggesting this!). Dynamic sysctls make entire sysctl subsystem more or less complete. I'd also like the idea of sysctl context which can be considered as a "handle" to the dynamically created subtree. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 6:39: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (berserker.twistedbit.com [199.79.183.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F71737B761; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cp@berserker.bsdi.com) Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (cp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berserker.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01801; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:38:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006281338.HAA01801@berserker.bsdi.com> To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? From: Chuck Paterson Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:38:56 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone talked to the author about this? BSDi is planning on releasing LPRng in the next release. It is in the contrib section and along with all the other licenses contains a Berkeley style license. The person doing the integration is on vacation so I haven't been able to really check on the details. Chuck To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 8: 6:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB3D37B9F4 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02625; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09905; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006281506.JAA09905@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006272328.RAA50308@harmony.village.org> References: <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> <200006270744.BAA32993@harmony.village.org> <200006272328.RAA50308@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : 4. You may distribute the programs of this Package in object code or > : executable form, provided that you do at least ONE of the following: > > One could argue that embedding this software in a package isn't > distributing it, so section 4 doesn't apply. However, since you > aren't granted the right to embed it in a product, this might backfire. Embedding the software in a product is most certainly distributing it. I doubt you'd ever get an exception for this. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 8: 9:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6639637BAE5 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12273; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:09:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Jesper Skriver Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jun 2000 17:09:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jesper Skriver's message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:48:41 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesper Skriver writes: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:12:07PM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > Would we be interested in doing this? > It has been discussed several times over the last week or so, and Kirk > had good arguments for not doing it - the mail archive is your friend. s/week/year/. This has been discussed many times, and while the current solution (fs flag) is not particularly elegant, it is the lesser evil. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 8:11:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF4F37BC26 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:11:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12293; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:11:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Warner Losh Cc: Hajimu UMEMOTO , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx References: <20000627.025616.112600456.ume@mahoroba.org> <20000627.014043.78732066.ume@mahoroba.org> <200006260434.WAA16059@harmony.village.org> <200006261648.KAA19816@harmony.village.org> <200006261836.MAA25337@harmony.village.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jun 2000 17:11:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:36:55 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > runsocks fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep > fetch: sendmsg: people.freebsd.org: No route to host > > runsocks ftp http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep > > > Looks like sendmsg isn't implemented in socks5. libfetch doesn't use sendmsg, so in a few hours this won't matter any more. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 8:38: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623F837BA77; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:37:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24064; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:37:44 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200006281338.HAA01801@berserker.bsdi.com> References: <200006281338.HAA01801@berserker.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:38:06 -0400 To: Chuck Paterson , Kris Kennaway From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 7:38 AM -0600 6/28/00, Chuck Paterson wrote: > >Has anyone talked to the author about this? BSDi is planning >on releasing LPRng in the next release. It is in the contrib >section and along with all the other licenses contains a >Berkeley style license. The person doing the integration is >on vacation so I haven't been able to really check on the details. Do you mean BSD/OS, or the new BSDi company? I'll be interested in checking anything BSD/OS has for lpr, so that current BSD/OS users aren't "surprised" by too many unexpected changes if they decide to use FreeBSD. However, I don't understand what you mean about BSDi releasing lprNG. lprNG is not BSDi's to release, it's Patrick's (or maybe I should say, astart.com's, I'm not sure). Now, it is true that Patrick HAS recently added an artistic-style license option (which isn't quite the same as the berkeley-style license), so maybe that's what you're thinking of? Does BSD/OS has something which also happens to be called lprNG, but is unrelated to Patrick's? If not, Patrick is the only one who can change the licensing options. Or does BSD/OS just have some other alternative to the current lpr or lprNG? --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9: 6:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from houston.matchlogic.com (houston.matchlogic.com [205.216.147.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAA237BBE3; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crandall@matchlogic.com) Received: by houston.matchlogic.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:06:13 -0600 Message-ID: <5FE9B713CCCDD311A03400508B8B301301C77B30@bdr-xcln.is.matchlogic.com> From: Charles Randall To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , Kris Kennaway Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.org, Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: RE: BSD sort(1) (Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD?) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:06:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How does the performance of Open/NetBSD's sort compare with GNU sort? Charles -----Original Message----- From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group [mailto:Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 4:19 PM To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group; obrien@FreeBSD.org; Warner Losh; Nate Williams; arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD sort(1) (Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD?) In message , Kri s Kennaway writes: > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > > One of the things on my todo list is to build a 4.4BSD sort port [I'm a > > poet and don't even know it :) ] which would have the features of GNU > > sort but with a BSD license and hopefully not the bug I found 5 years > > ago. > > Open and NetBSD use a modified 4.4BSD sort(1) Seems like the path of least resistance for now. I'll check it out. Thanks. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9: 6:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B00637BCB1 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19423 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) From: John Polstra Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA20730; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006281606.JAA20730@vashon.polstra.com> To: arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article , wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:53:28PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > > http://www.james-howard.com/display.html?page=grep.html > > > > > > Patches welcome :) > > > > Nice! Maybe this can be imported and GNU grep dropkicked out. ;) > > Seconded! First it would have to perform comparably. Grep is often used to scan huge numbers of files. Its performance matters a lot. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9: 7:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (berserker.twistedbit.com [199.79.183.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9272337BC55; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cp@berserker.bsdi.com) Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (cp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berserker.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03251; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:07:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006281607.KAA03251@berserker.bsdi.com> To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Kris Kennaway , Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? From: Chuck Paterson Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:07:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am talking about releasing what is traditionally known as LPRng in BSD/OS. BSDi has worked with Patrick on integrating LPRng into BSD/OS. Patrick provided BSDi with a Berkeley style copyright to go with it. Chuck To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9:14:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CFA37BC55; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5SGDw813263; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22542; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22538; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:57 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Chuck Paterson Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Kris Kennaway , Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006281607.KAA03251@berserker.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Chuck Paterson wrote: > I am talking about releasing what is traditionally known > as LPRng in BSD/OS. BSDi has worked with Patrick on integrating > LPRng into BSD/OS. Patrick provided BSDi with a Berkeley style copyright > to go with it. In that case, use it for the FreeBSD version. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9:15:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26CED37B6F2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5SGFAl29887; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:15:09 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Jesper Skriver , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000628091509.V275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:09:07PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000628 08:11] wrote: > Jesper Skriver writes: > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:12:07PM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > > Would we be interested in doing this? > > It has been discussed several times over the last week or so, and Kirk > > had good arguments for not doing it - the mail archive is your friend. > > s/week/year/. This has been discussed many times, and while the > current solution (fs flag) is not particularly elegant, it is the > lesser evil. IMO there's nothing wrong with mount doing what tunefs does, setting the softdep bit before actually mounting it, changing it while mounted would not be supported. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9:23:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (berserker.twistedbit.com [199.79.183.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197B137BD15; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cp@berserker.bsdi.com) Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (cp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berserker.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03539; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:22:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006281622.KAA03539@berserker.bsdi.com> To: James Howard Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Kris Kennaway , Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? From: Chuck Paterson Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:22:56 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG } }In that case, use it for the FreeBSD version. } }Jamie When BSD/OS 4.2 is released this could just happen. Before then someone needs to talk to the author to get this stuff from him, which is really the right answer anyway. Chuck To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 9:25:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDEC537B6F2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12716; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:25:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jesper Skriver , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> <20000628091509.V275@fw.wintelcom.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jun 2000 18:25:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: Alfred Perlstein's message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:15:09 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein writes: > * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000628 08:11] wrote: > > s/week/year/. This has been discussed many times, and while the > > current solution (fs flag) is not particularly elegant, it is the > > lesser evil. > IMO there's nothing wrong with mount doing what tunefs does, setting > the softdep bit before actually mounting it, changing it while > mounted would not be supported. If you use a filesystem marked for softupdates on a non-SU system, and have a crash, fsck will go nuts and spew gobs of "UNEXPECTED SOFTUPDATES INCONSISTENCY" messages. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:21:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from goku.cl.msu.edu (goku.cl.msu.edu [35.8.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4028D37BBC7; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by goku.cl.msu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA95096; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:21:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dervish) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:21:34 -0400 From: Bush Doctor To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Lyndon Nerenberg , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing Objc Message-ID: <20000628132134.A90605@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Lyndon Nerenberg , arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006271508.IAA17811@vashon.polstra.com> <200006271735.e5RHZ0610440@orthanc.ab.ca> <20000627114456.A60692@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000627114456.A60692@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:44:56AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 WWW-Home-Page: http://bantu.cl.msu.edu Organisation: Fraternal Order of Whipped Husbands -- (F.O.O.W.H.) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of da blue David O'Brien aka (obrien@FreeBSD.ORG) said: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 11:35:00AM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > > Two questions come to mind: > > 1) How much disk bloat is eliminated by removing objc from the base? > > Probably not much. > > > 2) How much bloat is regained by installing it as a port? > > More. > > > #2 is my main concern. Would I have to bootstrap/install XX MB of egcs from > > ports to get objc? > > "Yes" if you want the GNU version. "No" if you want the other > implimentation. The Question that should come to mind is *why* is it in > the base system. And why should we spend the time during a `make world' > to build it? People generally want a faster buildworld, and I've only > received one ObjC question in 1.5 years. That's because we're all very well versed in ObjC :) > So I wonder how many people use > it. I don't care much one way or the other. But these are questions > others seem to be asking. > > Notice that I have not brought in the Java compiler that is part of the > new GCC 2.95. Nor would I bring in the Ada compiler or Pascal compiler > when they become part of GCC (which now stands for GNU Compiler > Collection, note the all caps now). Would it work just as well to add an NO_OBJC knob in etc/make.conf? > > -- > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:25:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED3237BFEF for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5SHP2W01924; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:25:01 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Jesper Skriver , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000628102501.X275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> <20000628091509.V275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:25:06PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000628 09:25] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein writes: > > * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000628 08:11] wrote: > > > s/week/year/. This has been discussed many times, and while the > > > current solution (fs flag) is not particularly elegant, it is the > > > lesser evil. > > IMO there's nothing wrong with mount doing what tunefs does, setting > > the softdep bit before actually mounting it, changing it while > > mounted would not be supported. > > If you use a filesystem marked for softupdates on a non-SU system, and > have a crash, fsck will go nuts and spew gobs of "UNEXPECTED > SOFTUPDATES INCONSISTENCY" messages. Then when mounted without the softdep option it would have to clear the softdep bit before mounting read/write. I'm not talking about anything particularly tricky here, it's just tweaking the userland side of mount to possibly just spawn tunefs. Another interesting tweak would be adding the linux -loopback option to get mount to attempt to autoconfigure a vn device. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:26:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B590137BF43; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07683; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) From: Steve Kargl Message-Id: <200006281730.KAA07683@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Removing Objc In-Reply-To: <20000628132134.A90605@goku.cl.msu.edu> from Bush Doctor at "Jun 28, 2000 01:21:34 pm" To: Bush Doctor Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: "David O'Brien" , Lyndon Nerenberg , arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bush Doctor wrote: > > Notice that I have not brought in the Java compiler that is part of the > > new GCC 2.95. Nor would I bring in the Ada compiler or Pascal compiler > > when they become part of GCC (which now stands for GNU Compiler > > Collection, note the all caps now). > Would it work just as well to add an NO_OBJC knob in etc/make.conf? > See /etc/defaults/make.conf # To avoid building various parts of the base system: #NO_CVS= true # do not build CVS #NO_BIND= true # do not build BIND #NO_FORTRAN= true # do not build g77 and related libraries #NO_MAILWRAPPER=true # do not build the mailwrapper(8) MTA selector #NO_OBJC= true # do not build Objective C support -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:47:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F0937BE90 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA31799; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA29349; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:47:08 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000628104708.B29089@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> <20000628091509.V275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000628102501.X275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000628102501.X275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:25:01AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:25:01AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: ..snip.. > > > IMO there's nothing wrong with mount doing what tunefs does, setting > > > the softdep bit before actually mounting it, changing it while > > > mounted would not be supported. ..snip.. > > If you use a filesystem marked for softupdates on a non-SU system, and > > have a crash, fsck will go nuts and spew gobs of "UNEXPECTED > > SOFTUPDATES INCONSISTENCY" messages. ..snip.. > I'm not talking about anything particularly tricky here, it's just > tweaking the userland side of mount to possibly just spawn tunefs. Are you saying you want to go to a mount option for softupdates, or are you just saying what could be done in the abstract? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:48:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B09A37BED7 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA31828; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA29362; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:46 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Bush Doctor Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing Objc Message-ID: <20000628104846.C29089@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006271508.IAA17811@vashon.polstra.com> <200006271735.e5RHZ0610440@orthanc.ab.ca> <20000627114456.A60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <20000628132134.A90605@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000628132134.A90605@goku.cl.msu.edu>; from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 01:21:34PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 01:21:34PM -0400, Bush Doctor wrote: > > Notice that I have not brought in the Java compiler that is part of the > > new GCC 2.95. Nor would I bring in the Ada compiler or Pascal compiler > > when they become part of GCC (which now stands for GNU Compiler > > Collection, note the all caps now). > > Would it work just as well to add an NO_OBJC knob in etc/make.conf? It's there, which does speed up buildworld times for those that set it. So that takes care of all but one person -- of course I still have to maintain it as someone will not set NO_OBJC. ;-) -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:51:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848D537BDB2; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5SHpCb02862; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:51:12 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "David O'Brien" Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000628105111.Z275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> <20000628091509.V275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000628102501.X275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000628104708.B29089@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000628104708.B29089@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:47:08AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [000628 10:47] wrote: > On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:25:01AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > ..snip.. > > > > IMO there's nothing wrong with mount doing what tunefs does, setting > > > > the softdep bit before actually mounting it, changing it while > > > > mounted would not be supported. > ..snip.. > > > If you use a filesystem marked for softupdates on a non-SU system, and > > > have a crash, fsck will go nuts and spew gobs of "UNEXPECTED > > > SOFTUPDATES INCONSISTENCY" messages. > ..snip.. > > I'm not talking about anything particularly tricky here, it's just > > tweaking the userland side of mount to possibly just spawn tunefs. > > Are you saying you want to go to a mount option for softupdates, or are > you just saying what could be done in the abstract? I'm trying to explain how it can be done in a simple way without compromising what we already do. However actually implementing it is somewhere very low on my TODO list right now. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 10:51:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495DB37B5E2; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:51:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm016-032.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA32502; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:48:24 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3B46318C6; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:46:14 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: John Baldwin Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000628134614.I8602@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <2991.962038326@localhost> <200006270941.CAA00983@john.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006270941.CAA00983@john.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? Because apsfilter also brings in far more useless junk that LPRng does. 26,000 lines over our current lpr == LPRng. apsfilter == LPRng + lots and lots and lots of other crap. In any case, I think it was agreed that we are not going to import LPRng without a BSD license. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 11:21:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A084537BFE1 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:21:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA32024; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:21:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA30022; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:21:48 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change (17 Jun) Message-ID: <20000628112148.G29089@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006272212.PAA36120@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> <20000628094841.D77839@skriver.dk> <20000628091509.V275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000628102501.X275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000628104708.B29089@dragon.nuxi.com> <20000628105111.Z275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000628105111.Z275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:51:12AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:51:12AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I'm trying to explain how it can be done in a simple way without > compromising what we already do. However actually implementing it > is somewhere very low on my TODO list right now. :) And something that would be a waste of time as Kirk McKusick has said we aren't going in that direction. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 13:36:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE1837B62C; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id NAA11337; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:36:08 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda11335; Wed Jun 28 13:35:53 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA37234; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006282035.NAA37234@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdZ37222; Wed Jun 28 13:35:15 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Chuck Paterson Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Kris Kennaway , Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:07:46 MDT." <200006281607.KAA03251@berserker.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:35:15 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200006281607.KAA03251@berserker.bsdi.com>, Chuck Paterson writes: > > I am talking about releasing what is traditionally known > as LPRng in BSD/OS. BSDi has worked with Patrick on integrating > LPRng into BSD/OS. Patrick provided BSDi with a Berkeley style copyright > to go with it. This changes everything. Let's go for it. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 13:51: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from funkthat.com (adsl-63-195-54-213.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.195.54.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A64237C163 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:50:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by funkthat.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id NAA91192; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000628135046.26360@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:50:46 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Warner Losh Cc: Boris Popov , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Moving pccardd/pccardc to sbin References: <200006280346.VAA00467@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <200006280346.VAA00467@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 09:46:47PM -0600 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh scribbled this message on Jun 27: > In message Boris Popov writes: > : On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > : > : > I'd like to move pccardd/pccardc to sbin. This allows people booting > : > diskless to do so and has a few other advantages. I'd also like to > : > move pccardd startup earlier in the boot process. Same benefits. > : > : Yes, that would be nice. The only problem is the space available > : on the / mount for already existing installations. > > Hmmm. pccardd is 101k and pccardc is 75k. I don't think too many > people will notice. static or dynamic? -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 408 975 9651 Cu Networking "Thank God I'm an atheist, that'd just be confusing." -- cmc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 13:51:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beastie.mckusick.com (beastie.mckusick.com [209.31.233.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8134937C1C5; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mckusick@mckusick.com) Received: from beastie.mckusick.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beastie.mckusick.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05776; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mckusick@beastie.mckusick.com) Message-Id: <200006282051.NAA05776@beastie.mckusick.com> To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change Cc: Stefan Esser Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:51:00 -0700 From: Kirk McKusick Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After a long discussion (see below) with Stefan Esser, I have agreed that it is reasonable to make soft updates a mount option once we flip over to making them on by default. If you do not want soft updates, you will add the option `nosoftdep' to your fstab entry. That makes the extra options in /etc/fstab the exception rather than the rule and generally does not require naive administrators to know about them. It also avoids having a flag day when all the entries in /etc/fstab need to be flipped over as adding them now would do. I do not anticipate making them default on until they have had wider operational experience from the new licensing and until I resolve the problems with using them on nearly full filesystems (writes failing because space has not yet been freed from recently deleted files). Kirk McKusick =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:38:24 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: Kirk McKusick Cc: Stefan Esser , Stefan.Esser@o-tel-o.de Subject: Re: Soft updates mount change Reply-To: Stefan Esser On 2000-06-24 12:00 -0700, Kirk McKusick wrote: Please grant me a last chance to state my reasons, why I think that soft-updates might become a mount option: 1) The pre-dominant reason to store the soft-updates status in the super-block is for FSCK. 2) File system update policy decisions are per file-system, not per medium. 3) It should not be neccessary to have single-user console access to change the soft-updates enable bit. (Yes, I know about tunefs on a partition that is mounted R/O, but that will not work in all situations.) Regarding 1: There is a requirement, that fsck is able to determine whether the file-system was previously mounted with or with soft-updates. This asks for a way to keep that information in a place where it can't be deleted by accident, if the file system was not unmounted in a clean state. Tunefs operates on unmounted file-systems, whether clean or not. That means, that the SOFTDEP but in fs_flags can be modified either way on an unclean file system, as long as it is not mounted. The decision to use soft-updates should not share a bit with the status flag that controls fsck's operation. Regarding 2: My policy to use or not use soft-updates depends on the file-system, not the partition or medium (consider removable media). How about a ZIP drive that is used with soft-updates in my system, but is written to and disconnected without a clean unmount on a system, that does not have soft-updates in the kernel (e.g. FreeBSD-2.2.8). The medium will require a fsck on my system, and fsck must assume it was last written to with soft-update dependencies enforced, when in reality it was not. This is a constructed case (I do not even own a ZIP drive), but meant to explain my point of view, that the use of soft-updates does not depend on the medium but rather on the file system. My policy currently states, that soft-updates be used on all file systems except "/" (since I had bad luck with /bin being only partly populated after a "make installworld", which had required three times the free space required by the new binaries). I might have a policy, that requires /var to be written "sync", which kind of conflicts with soft-updates. I may have removable media that are moved between a number of systems and mounted on different mount points, with changing access and usage policies incl. whether async, sync or soft-updates are suitable for some particular use. All these points aks for soft-updates to be configured per mount-point, not per disk partition (i.e. *not* in the super-block). Regarding 3: I have a lot of systems in remote locations, some with only limited access to the console. (For example, there may be a modem that is switched off, unless activated for the duration of a remote access.) If I want to enable soft-updates on tens of machines, I'd rather only distribute a configuration file, than connect to each machine, boot into single-user mode, enable soft-updates on each file-system with tunefs, and then let the system go back to multi-user. There are other scenarios, where a system may receive a completely new kernel, without an administrator present, who knows how to use tunefs. (Think about PicoBSD: It should be possible to have soft-updates enabled or disabled by a configuration file delivered with the boot floppy.) The natural place for persistent per file-system configuration is either the super-block, where disklabel or newfs store immutable parameters, that can't be modified without loosing all data on a partition. The other place where such information is kept is /etc/fstab, which holds the usage, security and update policy decisions of a system in per records per mount-point. (Even if the first column in fstab is the partition name, I consider fstab to specify what to mount on a *mount point* and how to do it. but I admit that this is just my personal POV ;-) It is of course possible the have /etc/rc (or one of the rc.* sub-tasks) modify soft-updates before the "mount -a". But that would be more complex than my proposed solution. > Your above proposal would work, though that is not how NetBSD > implemented it. I feel that it is a lot of extra mechanism for very > little gain. Administrators generally make a one-time decision to > run soft updates on a filesystem. It is not the sort of thing that > they want to change on a regular basis. It is possible to run tunefs Agreed. But there are multiple places where this information may be stored. One is to hide it in the super-block, the other to expose it in /etc/fstab. Since mount reports the soft-updates state, I think the POLA asks for mount to be able to choose between softdep/nosoftdep. > on a filesystem that is mounted read-only, so it no more difficult > to use tunefs than it is to make it a mount-time option (i.e., they > still have to down-grade to read-only, set the option, then upgrade). This is not easily possible for some file-systems (like /var), where some processes keep files open for writing at all times and may fail, if the file system mode is forced to R/O. > Finally, I expect that soft updates will eventually just be defaulted > to `on' when a filesystem is built, and in a few rare instances an > administrator will want to turn it off. I do not want to have an > option that needs to be added to nearly every fstab entry to get > the default behavior. I fully agree that the default should not have to be added to each line in fstab. But then it could still default to on in the kernel, and a "nosoftdep" could disable it for selected file systems. But I see your point. Hmmm, I still do not think that the command character of FS_DOSOFTDEP and the reporting character (was previously mounted with soft-updates) of the same bit are a good design choice. The two functions should be separated. One way to do this is by making soft-updates a mount option as I propose, the other to have two flag bits in the super-block, one enable soft-updates, the other to report to fsck whether it was enabled. > Plus it is just one more bit of trivia that > new system administrators need to learn to make their systems run > well. The more of those details that need not be learned because > they just do the right thing, the better. But the tunefs method is anything but obvious. Well, if the next version of "sysinstall" offers to enable soft-updates in the partition editor, it will not be missed as easily as currently ... I think that soft-updates should be on by default, except possibly on the root file-system (which may happen to be too small: at least 15MB of free space are required for a "make installworld" or part of the programs in /bin and /sbin will be lost). There should of course not be different defaults for / and other file-systems, since this would violate the POLA. I'm still not convinced. I think that soft-updates should be enabled by default, and some people may want to disable it on the root fs ... I am writing this message on a system, which is modified to make softdep a mount option. This required a total of some 10 additional lines (incl. comments) to be added to ffs_vfsops.c, plus a few lines that changed from fs_flags to mnt_flag. A total of 3 lines had to be added to the mount program (two to enable/disable softdep, one to print its state for "mount -p"). Patches are appended below, just to show that this is a very minor change. Please consider adding these patches at least at the time, when soft-updates defaults to "on" ... Best regards, STefan ***************************************************************************** Patches to make softdep a "mount" option: -> Initial mount (no update mount, file system currently not mounted): The following patches make ffs_mount() perform a soft-updates mount (which sets the FS_DOSOFTDEP bit in fs->fs_flags, if successful), if all of the following conditions are true: 1) the MNT_SOFTDEP flag is set in mp->mnt_flag 2) soft-updates is compiled into the kernel 3) the file system is unmounted or mounted read-only The FS_DOSOFTDEP bit is cleared, if the mount succeeds without MNT_SOFTDEP being set. This can be caused by either of: 1) a successful mount without the "-o softdep" option (or the nosoftdep option, if softdep is to become the default). 2) a mount on a system without soft-updates support -> Update mount (typically: read-only -> read-write): If this is an update mount and the file-system is not clean, then the soft-updates enable status is "locked" (which is an even stronger condition than the requirement, that the file system be unmounted for "tunefs -n enable", which doesn't prevent changing an un-clean file system and mis-directing a subsequent fsck run ...). (If the file system is mounted R/O, the situation is identical to the "Initial mount" case above.) --- /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep.c 2000/06/22 00:29:53 1.69 +++ /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep.c 2000/06/27 18:22:49 @@ -962,5 +962,5 @@ mp->mnt_flag &= ~MNT_ASYNC; - mp->mnt_flag |= MNT_SOFTDEP; + fs->fs_flags |= FS_DOSOFTDEP; /* * When doing soft updates, the counters in the --- /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep_stub.c 2000/06/16 13:00:33 1.11 +++ /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_softdep_stub.c 2000/06/27 18:15:44 @@ -72,4 +72,5 @@ struct ucred *cred; { + mp->mnt_flag &= ~MNT_SOFTDEP; return (0); --- /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_vfsops.c 2000/06/04 04:50:36 1.122 +++ /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_vfsops.c 2000/06/27 20:33:37 @@ -196,4 +196,12 @@ err = 0; ronly = fs->fs_ronly; /* MNT_RELOAD might change this */ + if (ronly == 0) { + /* preserve current softdep status, unless mounted read-only */ + if (fs->fs_flags & FS_DOSOFTDEP) { + mp->mnt_flag |= MNT_SOFTDEP; + } else { + mp->mnt_flag &= ~MNT_SOFTDEP; + } + } if (ronly == 0 && (mp->mnt_flag & MNT_RDONLY)) { flags = WRITECLOSE; @@ -244,5 +252,5 @@ /* check to see if we need to start softdep */ - if (fs->fs_flags & FS_DOSOFTDEP) { + if (mp->mnt_flag & MNT_SOFTDEP) { err = softdep_mount(devvp, mp, fs, p->p_ucred); if (err) @@ -658,4 +666,7 @@ goto out; } + /* clear softdep flag in superblock, if not a softdep mount */ + if (mp->mnt_flag & MNT_SOFTDEP == 0) + fs->fs_flags &= ~FS_DOSOFTDEP; ump = malloc(sizeof *ump, M_UFSMNT, M_WAITOK); bzero((caddr_t)ump, sizeof *ump); @@ -746,5 +757,5 @@ fs->fs_maxfilesize = maxfilesize; /* XXX */ if (ronly == 0) { - if ((fs->fs_flags & FS_DOSOFTDEP) && + if ((mp->mnt_flag & MNT_SOFTDEP) && (error = softdep_mount(devvp, mp, fs, cred)) != 0) { free(base, M_UFSMNT); --- /usr/src/sbin/mount/mntopts.h 1999/10/09 11:54:07 1.16 +++ /usr/src/sbin/mount/mntopts.h 2000/06/27 19:06:19 @@ -57,4 +57,5 @@ #define MOPT_NOCLUSTERW { "clusterw", 1, MNT_NOCLUSTERW, 0 } #define MOPT_SUIDDIR { "suiddir", 0, MNT_SUIDDIR, 0 } +#define MOPT_SOFTDEP { "softdep", 0, MNT_SOFTDEP, 0 } /* Control flags. */ --- /usr/src/sbin/mount/mount.c 2000/01/15 14:28:13 1.39 +++ /usr/src/sbin/mount/mount.c 2000/06/27 20:14:39 @@ -741,4 +741,5 @@ if (flags & MNT_NOSYMFOLLOW) res = catopt(res, "nosymfollow"); if (flags & MNT_SUIDDIR) res = catopt(res, "suiddir"); + if (flags & MNT_SOFTDEP) res = catopt(res, "softdep"); return res; --- /usr/src/sbin/mount/mount_ufs.c 1999/08/28 00:13:27 1.16 +++ /usr/src/sbin/mount/mount_ufs.c 2000/06/27 17:26:50 @@ -67,4 +67,5 @@ MOPT_SYNC, MOPT_UPDATE, + MOPT_SOFTDEP, { NULL } }; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 13:52:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026F637C0CB for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA81538; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:52:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA58375; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:52:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006282052.OAA58375@harmony.village.org> To: John-Mark Gurney Subject: Re: Moving pccardd/pccardc to sbin Cc: Boris Popov , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:50:46 PDT." <20000628135046.26360@hydrogen.funkthat.com> References: <20000628135046.26360@hydrogen.funkthat.com> <200006280346.VAA00467@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:52:47 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000628135046.26360@hydrogen.funkthat.com> John-Mark Gurney writes: : > Hmmm. pccardd is 101k and pccardc is 75k. I don't think too many : > people will notice. : : static or dynamic? static. They are static now. This change doesn't affect that. I moves them from usr/sbin -> /sbin only. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 14:16: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCE437C3CC; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA17270; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Charles Randall Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , obrien@FreeBSD.org, Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: RE: BSD sort(1) (Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: <5FE9B713CCCDD311A03400508B8B301301C77B30@bdr-xcln.is.matchlogic.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Charles Randall wrote: > How does the performance of Open/NetBSD's sort compare with GNU sort? I have no numbers. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 16:23:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DD237C234 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22150; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:24:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAS_aymR; Wed Jun 28 16:23:58 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04868; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:23:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006282323.QAA04868@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:23:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: ume@mahoroba.org (Hajimu UMEMOTO), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200006261836.MAA25337@harmony.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Jun 26, 2000 12:36:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : Umm, it's curious. > : Recently, I'm not actuall using socks. But, I was using runsocks > : before. > : I just installed socks5 from ports on my 5.0-CURRENT box and tried. > : It seems working for me. > : > : # I'm not behind firewall now. So, I checked it by tcpdump. > > runsocks fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep > fetch: sendmsg: people.freebsd.org: No route to host > > runsocks ftp http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep > > > Looks like sendmsg isn't implemented in socks5. Verify that the symbol is weak in libc.so (HIDDEN_SYMBOLS style, per libc_r linking before libc). There was a similar problem in signal handling in select in libc vs. libc_r. Programs linked with libc_r still get the libc version, unless someone has fixed this. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 17: 1:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1AEC37C287; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15897; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:01:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA0vaOVE; Wed Jun 28 17:01:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA08463; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:01:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006290001.RAA08463@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? To: andrews@technologist.com (Will Andrews) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:01:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), adrian@FreeBSD.ORG (Adrian Chadd), andrews@technologist.com (Will Andrews), arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000626201508.B23538@argon.gryphonsoft.com> from "Will Andrews" at Jun 26, 2000 08:15:08 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Three more months until that patent expires, folks. Just three more > > months. > > I already realized that there is no way we can disable inetd completely > until telnet can have a guaranteed replacement, like ssh. =) > > When RSAREF becomes public domain (or whatever), that's a likely time > when we can lock down inetd by default. In the meantime, there's > nothing preventing us from working on any other issues that might > prevent this from happening. Some people use Windows machines as their clients. I guess you will get Microsoft to ship an SSH shell client too? Particularly if the BSD box is eing set up to be the network gateway? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 17: 6:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8500837C29C for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA82313; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:06:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA59790; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:06:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006290006.SAA59790@harmony.village.org> To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: ftp -o xxx Cc: ume@mahoroba.org (Hajimu UMEMOTO), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:23:34 -0000." <200006282323.QAA04868@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200006282323.QAA04868@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:06:20 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200006282323.QAA04868@usr08.primenet.com> Terry Lambert writes: : Verify that the symbol is weak in libc.so (HIDDEN_SYMBOLS style, : per libc_r linking before libc). There was a similar problem in : signal handling in select in libc vs. libc_r. Programs linked : with libc_r still get the libc version, unless someone has fixed : this. Nope. It is a different problem. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 17:47:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D8A37BA96; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:47:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id RAA11931; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:47:36 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda11929; Wed Jun 28 17:47:19 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA39414; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdP39412; Wed Jun 28 17:46:51 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.2/8.9.1) id e5T0kkq11251; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006290046.e5T0kkq11251@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdS11245; Wed Jun 28 17:46:29 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Will Andrews Cc: John Baldwin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:46:14 EDT." <20000628134614.I8602@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:46:28 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000628134614.I8602@argon.gryphonsoft.com>, Will Andrews writes: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? > > Because apsfilter also brings in far more useless junk that LPRng > does. 26,000 lines over our current lpr == LPRng. apsfilter == LPRng + > lots and lots and lots of other crap. > > In any case, I think it was agreed that we are not going to import LPRng > without a BSD license. I just read a posting earlier today on this list that stated that BSDI had received a BSD license from the author of LPRng. I think that this new information changes everything. Of course, in my mind this raises a bunch of other questions like why didn't the author of LPRng do that in the first place or why this offer wasn't extended to FreeBSD (or maybe the offer was made but not communicated to this list), but I'm not going to look a gift-horse in the mouth and just accept the gift. Assuming the the offer to BSDI extends to FreeBSD, I think that this is great news! As Patrick Powell is cc'd in this email (and the previous one) and rather than myself or anyone else commenting based upon second or third hand reports, maybe Patrick could confirm, deny, or clarify this (for the lack of a better word) "rumour". Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 18: 3: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FF837BAD6; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:02:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA42359; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:02:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:02:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Will Andrews , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: <200006290001.RAA08463@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Some people use Windows machines as their clients. > I guess you will get Microsoft to ship an SSH shell client too? There are decent free implementations of SSH1 for windows (e.g. PuTTY)..I don't know of any SSH2 clients though. > Particularly if the BSD box is eing set up to be the network gateway? In this instance you could select to enable telnetd in sysinstall during installation. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 18: 4:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0824537BAD6; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04412; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:04:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:04:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Will Andrews Cc: John Baldwin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000628134614.I8602@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? > > Because apsfilter also brings in far more useless junk that LPRng > does. 26,000 lines over our current lpr == LPRng. apsfilter == LPRng + > lots and lots and lots of other crap. I'm curious about that. How does LPRng get gif to postscript conversion without ghostscript (one of the biggest pieces of "crap" you refer to). How does it get ascii (or any other format) to postscript? Does it do all that internally, or does it include a lot of "crap" too? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 18:37:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1B737B99B; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04512; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:37:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: Chuck Paterson , Garance A Drosihn , Kris Kennaway , Warner Losh , Doug Barton , papowell@astart.com, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006282035.NAA37234@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > In message <200006281607.KAA03251@berserker.bsdi.com>, Chuck Paterson > writes: > > > > I am talking about releasing what is traditionally known > > as LPRng in BSD/OS. BSDi has worked with Patrick on integrating > > LPRng into BSD/OS. Patrick provided BSDi with a Berkeley style copyright > > to go with it. > > This changes everything. Let's go for it. Not until we've *seen* it. So far, Chuck Paterson's the only one who's seen it, and unless he can give us a copy, the only other ones that are available to us *don't* have that copyright. Sheesh. Obviously trying for the "stampede" effect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 20:27:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA5537C399; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00666; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03677; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200006281721.KAA03677@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000628102839.H58428@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: dynamic filetypes. please comment. Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28-Jun-00 Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 26-Jun-00 Alfred Perlstein wrote: >> > In order to have a kld add a new filetype (DTYPE_VNODE, DTYPE_PIPE, >> > etc.) it needs to generate a unique number. >> >> Ummm, what happened to fixing the kernel code to not need a type >> but to add the appropriate vfsops as Peter suggested during the >> BSDi hospitality thingie at Usenix? That solution avoids the need >> for filetypes at all and provides the cleaner solution. IIRC, the >> primary offender was sendfile(). > > Hrm. Can you go into a little more detail for us non-USENIXians? Apparently, one of the reasons for dynamic file types were that some functions, such as sendfile(), actually used a switch() on the fd type to determine what action to take. Thus, every time you add a file type, you have to modify sendfile() to teach it about the new type. Peter's suggestion was that instead of adding in support for dynamic fd types (and I presume some callout mechanism whereby new fd type modules can register handlers or something for sendfile()), just add a VOP to each fd type's functions for sendfile(). (Well, my terminology is somewhat sketchy since I'm not a VFS expert, but hopefully the general point is made.) Ideally, each fd should know how to manage itself and the kernel should be able to call methods of the fd (oop-ish, I know) rather than requiring the system to know about all the various fd types. Of course, with this method you require each fd type to know all the basic operations must be performed, but that doesn't seem unreasonable IMHO. > Adrian -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 21:45:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B880C37BB1A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28865; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:45:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <395AD4E3.7999222F@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:47:31 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <39593177.336E28E9@softweyr.com> <39584F45.6C99F22B@softweyr.com> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270654.AAA32561@harmony.village.org> <200006272316.RAA50246@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <39593177.336E28E9@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: > : But the rub is - does the activity of porting it to FreeBSD make it a > : changed version? I'm well aware that the FreeBSD standard versions are > : re-released to the public, but none of that has anything to do with this > : section 4. > > No. It is OK. If you use an unmodified version, all you gotta do is > toss a cdrom in your ftp server worst case. Or you could say "just > grab it from here, that's the version taht we use." And you'd be in > compliance for it. Not if the box won't work without it. ;^) This is more an issue with Perl than with LPRng. > : The problem is not with their own hacked copy of LPRng, but that they > : (potentially) can't distribute the FreeBSD version. I'm staring at this > : with Perl on a closely related ;^) platform at the moment, and it is > : quite a problem. > > No. I think you are incorrectly reading it. One could easily argue > that if one distributes the FereBSD version one is in compliance with > the license. One can easily argue that. Now go tell your boss the license is ambiguous but YOU are certain you can win the court case. Be sure to visit monster.com first, though. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 21:49:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C7E37C25C for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28881; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:49:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <395AD5CA.1A127F8@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:51:22 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> <200006270744.BAA32993@harmony.village.org> <200006272328.RAA50308@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > The Freely Available clause is satisified by the archive at > ftp.freebsd.org. This assumes that FreeBSD complies with the rest of > Section 3 (the prominent notice clauses, which one could argue is > automatically satisifed by the cvs ,v file since it logs everything > that you did to the file). Also we'd comply with the "allowing the > Copyright Holder" clause as well as the major archive clause. > > I think this logic would be upheld in court because things are fairly > clear from the definitions. Not perfectly good, but the intent takes > over when the exact language of the contract isn't perfectly clear. > I'm not a lwayer, so you'll need to consult one to render a legal > opinion. I agree, and my legal counsel agrees as well. What he said, however, is that he feels it is defensible in court, not that it is pretty much lawsuit proof. He feels the 2-clause BSD license is lawsuit proof. Which would you prefer? ;^) > So you are left with what to do if you hack LPRng and don't wish to > distribute the changes at all ni source form. That issue doesn't worry me so much. I worry about encumbering FreeBSD itself, rather than derived works. As others have pointed out, those who don't want to work with LPRng can always get the previous version out of CVS. I'd prefer to see it moved to ports if LPRng is to be ported. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 21:52:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B73E37BB1A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:52:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28896; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:52:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:54:26 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.org, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: > : If we continue to migrate important parts of FreeBSD to licenses more > : restrictive than the BSD license, we may find ourselves losing embedded > : design wins to other BSD systems. If that's what the FreeBSD user base > : wants, so be it, but I suspect it is at odds with the wants and needs > : of Whistle, Nokia, Apple (maybe), and BSDi (in particular). > > While I am arguing about th Artistic license, I think you are right. That is certainly included in the set of "licenses more restrictive than the BSD license." So is practically everything else but the Beer Ware License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" Damned beancounters. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 21:54:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C99037C3C6 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA83476; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:54:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA61948; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006290454.WAA61948@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:51:22 MDT." <395AD5CA.1A127F8@softweyr.com> References: <395AD5CA.1A127F8@softweyr.com> <39593208.7D132924@softweyr.com> <200006270744.BAA32993@harmony.village.org> <200006272328.RAA50308@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:54:33 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <395AD5CA.1A127F8@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : I agree, and my legal counsel agrees as well. What he said, however, : is that he feels it is defensible in court, not that it is pretty : much lawsuit proof. He feels the 2-clause BSD license is lawsuit : proof. Which would you prefer? ;^) 2-clause BSD. :-) It appears that the LPRng folks have done that :-). Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 21:55:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D3C37C3DB for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA83488; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:55:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA61977; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:55:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006290455.WAA61977@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.org, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:54:26 MDT." <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> References: <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:55:21 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers : do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" : : Damned beancounters. Ah. I've got to switch to the BeerWare license. :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 22:18:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E62837BB1C for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id HAA18498 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:18:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21361 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:18:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:18:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Alterations to vops Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After having discussed the issue of find(1) and similar processes hogging CPU due to being very un-nice when stuck in these waiting on BIO, I have, together with Brian Feldman, who first pointed it out as a problem, come up with a suggested solution. First off comes adding "off_t *offs" to the relevant vops. This value would be initialized to VNOVAL by the caller, and then be updated by the vops in subsequent calls. Secondly, a new error value, ERETRY, would be added, which would signify that the vop has not completed and should rather be reissued. The libraries would do this transparently to the users. This value is proposed rather than EAGAIN as there is no resource shortage at all. This mechanism would also simplify the directory scanning in UFS, at least somewhat. Feedback? --- Marius Bendiksen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 22:28:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4B937BB26 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA257266; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:28:14 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> References: <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:28:40 -0400 To: Wes Peters , Warner Losh From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:54 PM -0600 6/28/00, Wes Peters wrote: >So is practically everything else but the Beer Ware License, >and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers >do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers >due?" "Do we get to pick the brand? Would lite-beer be good enough? How about near-beer? Root-beer? Diet root-beer?" --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 23:15:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B352737B86C for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5T6FBk24268; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:15:10 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alterations to vops Message-ID: <20000628231510.F275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from mbendiks@eunet.no on Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 07:18:37AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Marius Bendiksen [000628 22:22] wrote: > After having discussed the issue of find(1) and similar processes > hogging CPU due to being very un-nice when stuck in these waiting > on BIO, I have, together with Brian Feldman, who first pointed it > out as a problem, come up with a suggested solution. > First off comes adding "off_t *offs" to the relevant vops. > This value would be initialized to VNOVAL by the caller, and then > be updated by the vops in subsequent calls. > Secondly, a new error value, ERETRY, would be added, which > would signify that the vop has not completed and should rather be > reissued. The libraries would do this transparently to the users. > This value is proposed rather than EAGAIN as there is no resource > shortage at all. > > This mechanism would also simplify the directory scanning in UFS, > at least somewhat. Can you elaborate on the problem you are describing? I'm not sure I understand besideds certain processes being able to hog the buffercache and filesystems. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 23:20: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C4C37B86C for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA83803; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:19:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA51896; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006290619.AAA51896@harmony.village.org> To: Sheldon Hearn Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Cc: Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:36 +0200." <44124.962014536@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> References: <44124.962014536@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:19:51 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <44124.962014536@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sheldon Hearn writes: : Once you've addressed Adrian Chadd's concerns, I'd suggest that you send : Jordan patches which : : * Turn inetd_enable OFF by default in /etc/defaults/rc.conf. : * Possibly override this in /etc/rc.conf should something like ftpd : be selected and enabled at install time. Eivind send me this in a patch a while ago. Just FYI. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 23:20:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09A637BD9A; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA83815; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:20:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA52838; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:20:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006290620.AAA52838@harmony.village.org> To: Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? Cc: "David O'Brien" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:25:20 +0200." <20000626122520.U36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> References: <20000626122520.U36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626053525.U85886@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <20000626115146.S36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> <20000626031547.J14265@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:20:34 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000626122520.U36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Adrian Chadd writes: : The telnet service open by itself poses no security risk. : The telnet service *in use* is a security risk. Unless you are using the new encrypting telnet. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 28 23:24:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DA037B8D6 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17373; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:24:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Warner Losh Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Will Andrews , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:19:51 MDT." <200006290619.AAA51896@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:24:28 -0700 Message-ID: <17370.962259868@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I still think it's far too early to be talking about this. - Jordan > In message <44124.962014536@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sheldon Hearn writes: > : Once you've addressed Adrian Chadd's concerns, I'd suggest that you send > : Jordan patches which > : > : * Turn inetd_enable OFF by default in /etc/defaults/rc.conf. > : * Possibly override this in /etc/rc.conf should something like ft pd > : be selected and enabled at install time. > > Eivind send me this in a patch a while ago. Just FYI. > > Warner > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 1: 7:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867FB37BBBA; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16196; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:06:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Terry Lambert , Will Andrews , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Chadd , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Jun 2000 10:06:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kris Kennaway's message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:02:58 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway writes: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Some people use Windows machines as their clients. > > I guess you will get Microsoft to ship an SSH shell client too? > There are decent free implementations of SSH1 for windows (e.g. PuTTY)..I > don't know of any SSH2 clients though. One possible alternative is MindTerm, a GPLed ssh client written in Java, which can run standalone (with or without GUI) or as an applet. I don't think it supports SSH2, but that might change. http://www.mindbright.se/english/technology/products/mindterm/index.html DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 2:24: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB8637B52D for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 137aXt-000Esa-00; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:23:41 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Doug Barton Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:23:41 +0200 Message-ID: <57199.962270621@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Doug, I'd like to propose a change to the wording of a warning displayed by mergemaster: *** Your PAGER environment variable specifies 'less', but I cannot execute it. In general it is good practice to specify the full path for environment variables like PAGER and EDITOR. Meanwhile, what would you like to do? Use 'e' to exit mergemaster and fix your PAGER variable Use 'l' to set PAGER to /usr/local/bin/less for this run Use 'm' to use plain old 'more' as your PAGER for this run I understand that mergemaster explicitly overrides the PATH for security reasons. I don't want to enter into any discussion of that behaviour and would ask that readers on the copied mailing list refrain from doing so. What I _would_ like to address is the incorrect description of "good practice" with respect to environment variables. It is very commonly accepted practice to set EDITOR, PAGER and the like using partial pathnames. Look at the default dotfiles in FreeBSD, Linux and Solaris for proof. Simply put, mergemaster is out of line with common practice. However, as already stated, I do _not_ wish to discuss mergemaster's handling of the PATH. You have already presented well-stated motivations for the way you chose to do that. Therefore, I would like to reword the warning displayed as follows: *** Your PAGER environment variable specifies 'less', but I cannot find it in the limited path that I am using. What would you like to do? Use 'e' to exit mergemaster and change your PAGER variable Use 'l' to set PAGER to /usr/local/bin/less for this run Use 'm' to use plain old 'more' as your PAGER for this run Would you be happy with this change? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 3:12:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B8F37B5A2; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id DAA19494; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:12:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Warner Losh Cc: Adrian Chadd , "David O'Brien" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? In-Reply-To: <200006290620.AAA52838@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20000626122520.U36017@zoe.bastard.co.uk> Adrian Chadd writes: > : The telnet service open by itself poses no security risk. > : The telnet service *in use* is a security risk. > > Unless you are using the new encrypting telnet. Even then :-) SRA has protocol weaknesses that make it only "slightly better" than unencrypted telnet. In other words, it will stop casual snoopers, but can't stop active attacks at connection establishment time (and probably during the session as well). Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 4:42:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC27337B89C for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:42:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e5TBgX719904; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA02413; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02409; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:42:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:42:33 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Wes Peters Cc: Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > the BSD license." So is practically everything else but the Beer Ware > License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers > do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" What if the original author is under 21 (or the relevant age in some other jurisdiction). How does the license deal with that? :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 5:32:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF2E637B747 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 05:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mal@algonet.se) Received: (qmail 9425 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2000 14:32:05 +0200 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 29 Jun 2000 14:32:05 +0200 Received: from kairos.algonet.se (kairos.algonet.se [194.213.74.201]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 789478.281924.962garibaldi-s1 ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:32:04 +0200 Received: (mal@localhost) by kairos.algonet.se (8.8.8+Sun/8.6.12) id OAA21737; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:32:04 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:32:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200006291232.OAA21737@kairos.algonet.se> X-Authentication-Warning: kairos.algonet.se: mal set sender to mal@kairos.algonet.se using -f From: Mats Lofkvist To: des@flood.ping.uio.no Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, andrews@technologist.com, jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com, adrian@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on 29 Jun 2000 10:06:06 +0200) Subject: Re: Disabling inetd? References: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway writes: > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Some people use Windows machines as their clients. > > I guess you will get Microsoft to ship an SSH shell client too? > There are decent free implementations of SSH1 for windows (e.g. PuTTY)..I > don't know of any SSH2 clients though. One possible alternative is MindTerm, a GPLed ssh client written in Java, which can run standalone (with or without GUI) or as an applet. I don't think it supports SSH2, but that might change. http://www.mindbright.se/english/technology/products/mindterm/index.html SSH2 support for MindTerm is almost done and a test version will be released soon, but the license might change from the GPL. _ Mats Lofkvist mal@algonet.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 8:57:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB54137BB7A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:57:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00387; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:57:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <395B7258.D505F889@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:59:20 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Howard wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > the BSD license." So is practically everything else but the Beer Ware > > License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers > > do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" > > What if the original author is under 21 (or the relevant age in some other > jurisdiction). How does the license deal with that? :) Augh! Maybe the /root/beer license? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 9:45: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6B037B914 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06867; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <395B7CF2.AAFEAEB5@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:44:34 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0628 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling References: <57199.962270621@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > Hi Doug, > > I'd like to propose a change to the wording of a warning displayed by > mergemaster: > > *** Your PAGER environment variable specifies 'less', but > I cannot execute it. In general it is good practice to > specify the full path for environment variables like > PAGER and EDITOR. Meanwhile, what would you like to do? > What I _would_ like to address is the incorrect description of "good > practice" with respect to environment variables. > > It is very commonly accepted practice to set EDITOR, PAGER and the like > using partial pathnames. Commonly accepted != good. :) > Would you be happy with this change? No. I already conceded part of this point a while back when I developed the .mergemasterrc mechanism so that people could specify their own PATH (among other things), so there is already a way out of this for those who are not interested in specifying the full path to their PAGER. I'm definitely not going to support a text change which moves away from encouraging "best practice." I do have some changes for mergemaster coming that I hope to wrap up during the long weekend. Stay tuned. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 9:56:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4319037B7C6 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 137hbo-000AXc-00; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:56:12 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Doug Barton Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:44:34 MST." <395B7CF2.AAFEAEB5@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:56:12 +0200 Message-ID: <40523.962297772@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:44:34 MST, Doug Barton wrote: > No. I already conceded part of this point a while back when I > developed the .mergemasterrc mechanism so that people could specify > their own PATH (among other things), so there is already a way out of > this for those who are not interested in specifying the full path to > their PAGER. I have two things here that I'd like to mention. Firstly, this isn't about concessions. I'm happy for the utility to continue demanding that the administrator press 'l' every time he runs mergemaster (or stick a full path in his PAGER variable). I'm objecting to a lie: > > *** Your PAGER environment variable specifies 'less', but > > I cannot execute it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Whether a lie or a partial truth, it's misleading and it confuses and, in my opinion, unhelpful. That's why I suggested a simple solution, which is to change the text so that no lie is told. (Sheesh, it's hard to stay away from arguing about good practice). :-) The second thing I want to mention is that building your own personal philosophy on good practice into the utility puts it at odds with the rest of the system. FreeBSD users never before had to use full pathnames for PAGER, nor for EDITOR. The dot files we install for users have always taught them a practice which was uniform and integral. Now one utility stands apart and causes a point of confusion -- not the only thing it does, mind you! :-) I'm suggesting that, instead of butting heads over what's right and what's not, we just fix what mergemaster says about your policy decision. Actually, I thought it was an incredibly politically clever approach. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 10: 0:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay01.chello.nl (smtp.chello.nl [212.83.68.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B0437BF1A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay01.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 2ee4e7c625482f2f2a1950a80f6c8d58) with ESMTP id <20000629170109.OZSJ159.relay01@chello.nl>; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:01:09 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01237; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:00:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:00:10 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Wes Peters Cc: James Howard , Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000629190010.A1191@freebie.wbnet> Reply-To: wilko@FreeBSD.ORG References: <395B7258.D505F889@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <395B7258.D505F889@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 09:59:20AM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 09:59:20AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > James Howard wrote: > > > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > the BSD license." So is practically everything else but the Beer Ware > > > License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers > > > do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" > > > > What if the original author is under 21 (or the relevant age in some other > > jurisdiction). How does the license deal with that? :) > > Augh! Maybe the /root/beer license? ;^) Nah.. rootbeer is covered under the Geneva Convention on Chemical Warfare. ;-) -- Wilko Bulte http://www.freebsd.org "Do, or do not. There is no try" wilko@freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Yoda - The Empire Strikes Back To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 10:16: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BF737BB6D for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07133; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <395B843F.6274C58D@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:15:43 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0628 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling References: <40523.962297772@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:44:34 MST, Doug Barton wrote: > > > No. I already conceded part of this point a while back when I > > developed the .mergemasterrc mechanism so that people could specify > > their own PATH (among other things), so there is already a way out of > > this for those who are not interested in specifying the full path to > > their PAGER. > > I have two things here that I'd like to mention. Firstly, this isn't > about concessions. Of course it is. If I wanted to do it the way you are suggesting, I would have done it already. Additionally, I have already stated specifically on more than one occasion that I do not want to do what you want for specific reasons, therefore you are asking me to make a concession. I don't mind that you're asking, but let's call a spade a spade. > I'm objecting to a lie: > > > > *** Your PAGER environment variable specifies 'less', but > > > I cannot execute it. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Whether a lie or a partial truth, It's neither, it's the absolute truth. What might be helpful is an expansion of that message to include more details about why it's true. I will work on that tonight. It should be easy enough to do that, and update for less being in the base as well. > The second thing I want to mention is that building your own personal > philosophy on good practice into the utility puts it at odds with the > rest of the system. I've already argued this point ad nauseum. Because of what mergemaster does, the restrictive path is entirely appropriate. The fact that using the full path to a program specified in an environment variable is better from a security standpoint is not simply my opinion, and quite frankly, I don't really care that I'm "at odds with the rest of the system." As I mentioned, the person running mergemaster already has the option of (potentially) shooting themselves in the foot with the PATH variable, so if that message _really_ bothers them, they can fix it so that they never see it. > I'm suggesting that, instead of butting heads over what's right and > what's not, we just fix what mergemaster says about your policy > decision. So you don't want to argue the merits, you just want me to do what you want me to do? -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 10:27:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3524B37C435 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA99343; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200006291727.KAA99343@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Jun 28, 2000 10:54:26 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > In message <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: > > : If we continue to migrate important parts of FreeBSD to licenses more > > : restrictive than the BSD license, we may find ourselves losing embedded > > : design wins to other BSD systems. If that's what the FreeBSD user base > > : wants, so be it, but I suspect it is at odds with the wants and needs > > : of Whistle, Nokia, Apple (maybe), and BSDi (in particular). > > > > While I am arguing about th Artistic license, I think you are right. > > That is certainly included in the set of "licenses more restrictive than > the BSD license." So is practically everything else but the Beer Ware > License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers > do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" The beer ware license also makes the liability-counters queasy. If we do give him the beer, do we need a liquour license, are we liable if he gets drunk and does something, etc, etc. > Damned beancounters. Damned lawyers :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 10:51:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from goku.cl.msu.edu (goku.cl.msu.edu [35.8.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B41437B528; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dervish@goku.cl.msu.edu) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by goku.cl.msu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09003; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:50:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dervish) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:50:58 -0400 From: Bush Doctor To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing Objc Message-ID: <20000629135058.B69306@goku.cl.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006271508.IAA17811@vashon.polstra.com> <200006271735.e5RHZ0610440@orthanc.ab.ca> <20000627114456.A60692@dragon.nuxi.com> <20000628132134.A90605@goku.cl.msu.edu> <20000628104846.C29089@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000628104846.C29089@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:48:46AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 WWW-Home-Page: http://bantu.cl.msu.edu Organisation: Fraternal Order of Whipped Husbands -- (F.O.O.W.H.) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of da blue David O'Brien aka (obrien@FreeBSD.ORG) said: > On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 01:21:34PM -0400, Bush Doctor wrote: > > > Notice that I have not brought in the Java compiler that is part of the > > > new GCC 2.95. Nor would I bring in the Ada compiler or Pascal compiler > > > when they become part of GCC (which now stands for GNU Compiler > > > Collection, note the all caps now). > > > > Would it work just as well to add an NO_OBJC knob in etc/make.conf? > > It's there, which does speed up buildworld times for those that set it. > So that takes care of all but one person -- of course I still have to > maintain it as someone will not set NO_OBJC. ;-) Gak, I knew that!!! Not enough sleep lately ;-). I checked the GCC home page, and it seems that they're heading towards a model where one could just choose the backend off the shelf, plug in and run. If this is the direction they're headed I guess it would make sense to keep only what's needed to build the base system. I remember the discussion about fortran and though the removal of objc won't fuel a passionate debate I for one would vote to keep it. > > -- > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 10:53:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DA037BFC7 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm011-006.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.81.230]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21903; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:52:52 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0E8F1992; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:50:43 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Wes Peters Cc: Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000629135043.E24486@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:54:26PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 10:54:26PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > License, and even THAT makes the bean-counters queasy. "How many beers > do we owe him? How do we pay these beers? When are the beers due?" * ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * "THE BEER-WARE LICENSE" (Revision 42): * wrote this file. As long as you retain this notice you * can do whatever you want with this stuff. If we meet some day, and you think * this stuff is worth it, you can buy me a beer in return. Poul-Henning Kamp * ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you saying lawyers will dare ask these questions which only deserve in reply, "That depends on what your definition of ``a'' is." ;-> And then, "That depends on what your definition of ``some day'' is." ;-> -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 11:29:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB1E37BC8F for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:29:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA86859; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:29:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA35129; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:29:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200006291829.MAA35129@harmony.village.org> To: Will Andrews Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:50:43 EDT." <20000629135043.E24486@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000629135043.E24486@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <39593307.B752A758@softweyr.com> <3958502D.DF9729BD@gorean.org> <200006242153.OAA01110@h4.private> <200006270615.AAA31842@harmony.village.org> <200006270725.BAA32822@harmony.village.org> <200006271418.IAA04077@nomad.yogotech.com> <200006272329.RAA50325@harmony.village.org> <395AD682.C49C2845@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:29:26 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000629135043.E24486@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Will Andrews writes: : Are you saying lawyers will dare ask these questions which only deserve : in reply, "That depends on what your definition of ``a'' is." ;-> : : And then, "That depends on what your definition of ``some day'' is." ;-> Or "can" :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 11:33:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B5C37B9DA for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e5TIWTW63381; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:32:29 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <200006291832.e5TIWTW63381@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling In-Reply-To: <395B7CF2.AAFEAEB5@gorean.org> from Doug Barton at "Jun 29, 2000 09:44:34 am" To: DougB@gorean.org (Doug Barton) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:32:29 +0200 (SAT) Cc: sheldonh@uunet.co.za (Sheldon Hearn), arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > No. I already conceded part of this point a while back when I developed > the .mergemasterrc mechanism so that people could specify their own PATH > (among other things), so there is already a way out of this for those > who are not interested in specifying the full path to their PAGER. I'm > definitely not going to support a text change which moves away from > encouraging "best practice." Can you tell me why it is good practise to use full paths for environment variables, because I don't understand it. I mean all the commands that I type follow the PATH variable to get to the command. Why should an command inside an environment variable be any different? I mean, if I'm root and I have a path to a directory that someone else than root has write access to, there are hundreds of other commands that I'm using that can be used to get root access. The same with if I'm a normal user and I have a path to a directory that someone other than me or root has write access to. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 12: 6:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6AD37BFBC for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:06:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07896; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt052n3e.san.rr.com To: John Hay Cc: Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling In-Reply-To: <200006291832.e5TIWTW63381@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, John Hay wrote: > > > > No. I already conceded part of this point a while back when I developed > > the .mergemasterrc mechanism so that people could specify their own PATH > > (among other things), so there is already a way out of this for those > > who are not interested in specifying the full path to their PAGER. I'm > > definitely not going to support a text change which moves away from > > encouraging "best practice." > > Can you tell me why it is good practise to use full paths for environment > variables, because I don't understand it. Essentially, it's the same argument as not putting '.' in the PATH. Are there bigger, more important security holes to worry about? Absolutely. That doesn't mean that doing what you can to improve security isn't worthwhile. In any case, this is a very small issue, and it's not central to what mergemaster does, or how it does it. If you don't agree, that's ok with me, my feelings won't be hurt. I've already agreed to expand that "advisory" to make it more clear. Man... you'd think I was asking people to jam hot needles in their eyes.... -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 14: 1:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (fw2.aub.dk [195.24.1.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327D037B952 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00815; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:58:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Warner Losh Cc: Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:29:26 MDT." <200006291829.MAA35129@harmony.village.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:58:06 +0200 Message-ID: <813.962312286@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200006291829.MAA35129@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: >In message <20000629135043.E24486@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Will Andrews writes: >: Are you saying lawyers will dare ask these questions which only deserve >: in reply, "That depends on what your definition of ``a'' is." ;-> >: >: And then, "That depends on what your definition of ``some day'' is." ;-> > >Or "can" :-) Or, more importantly: "[...], and you think this stuff is worth it, [...]" -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 21:23:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5C937C314 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:23:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA345380; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:23:04 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:23:27 -0400 To: Chuck Robey , Will Andrews From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:04 PM -0400 6/28/00, Chuck Robey wrote: >On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > > Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? > > > > Because apsfilter also brings in far more useless junk that > > LPRng does. 26,000 lines over our current lpr == LPRng. > > apsfilter == LPRng + lots and lots and lots of other crap. > >I'm curious about that. How does LPRng get gif to postscript >conversion without ghostscript (one of the biggest pieces of >"crap" you refer to). How does it get ascii (or any other >format) to postscript? I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire up ghostscript to print gif images...] --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 29 23:27:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE8637B785 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 137uGT-000P1S-00; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:27:01 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Doug Barton Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:15:43 MST." <395B843F.6274C58D@gorean.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:27:01 +0200 Message-ID: <96189.962346421@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:15:43 MST, Doug Barton wrote: > It's neither, it's the absolute truth. What might be helpful is an > expansion of that message to include more details about why it's true. I > will work on that tonight. It should be easy enough to do that, and > update for less being in the base as well. Yeah. Something that explained that mergemaster was using a restrictive PATH would attain the goal I'm punting at. > So you don't want to argue the merits, you just want me to do > what you want me to do? Wouldn't _that_ be dandy? :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 0:14:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E97937B724 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14878; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <395C48DF.A18CA0F2@gorean.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:14:39 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0629 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling References: <96189.962346421@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:15:43 MST, Doug Barton wrote: > > > It's neither, it's the absolute truth. What might be helpful is an > > expansion of that message to include more details about why it's true. I > > will work on that tonight. It should be easy enough to do that, and > > update for less being in the base as well. > > Yeah. Something that explained that mergemaster was using a restrictive > PATH would attain the goal I'm punting at. Ok, deal. My dad called at the last minute tonight so I didn't get to finish the patch, but I will put it in the set I'm working on for this weekend. > > So you don't want to argue the merits, you just want me to do > > what you want me to do? > > Wouldn't _that_ be dandy? :-) Dream on. :) -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 3: 9:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805DC37C590 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 03:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (hak.nat.Awfulhak.org [172.31.0.12]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA60664; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:09:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18177; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:09:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200006301009.LAA18177@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Doug Barton Cc: John Hay , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: mergemaster: Change in description of envar handling In-Reply-To: Message from Doug Barton of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:05:25 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:09:03 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, John Hay wrote: > > > > > > > No. I already conceded part of this point a while back when I developed > > > the .mergemasterrc mechanism so that people could specify their own PATH > > > (among other things), so there is already a way out of this for those > > > who are not interested in specifying the full path to their PAGER. I'm > > > definitely not going to support a text change which moves away from > > > encouraging "best practice." > > > > Can you tell me why it is good practise to use full paths for environment > > variables, because I don't understand it. > > Essentially, it's the same argument as not putting '.' in the > PATH. Are there bigger, more important security holes to worry > about? Absolutely. That doesn't mean that doing what you can to improve > security isn't worthwhile. Sorry to press the point, but it's not. Having a PAGER with an unqualified program is exactly as secure as your PATH. Looking at the mergemaster code, it looks wrong. o It's ok if PAGER = more - what's so special about more ? o It checks if -x ${PAGER%% *} - looking potentially for an executable in the current directory. I'm guilty of introducing that second bug... Perhaps it should be this: Index: mergemaster.sh =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.sbin/mergemaster/mergemaster.sh,v retrieving revision 1.8 diff -u -r1.8 mergemaster.sh --- mergemaster.sh 2000/05/12 03:09:57 1.8 +++ mergemaster.sh 2000/06/30 10:04:40 @@ -252,7 +252,7 @@ # case "${DONT_CHECK_PAGER}" in '') - while [ "${PAGER}" != "more" -a -n "${PAGER}" -a ! -x "${PAGER%% *}" ]; do + while ! type "${PAGER%% *}" >/dev/null && [ -n "$PAGER" ]; do echo " *** Your PAGER environment variable specifies '${PAGER}', but" echo " I cannot execute it. In general it is good practice to" echo " specify the full path for environment variables like" Of course the more descriptive text stuff about PATH being altered should still be added. BTW, the [ -n "$PAGER" ] *should* be done first but isn't because there seems to be a bug in sh where you can't say while program1 && ! program2 but you can say while ! program2 && program1 -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 3:48:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059C237B946 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 03:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21942; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:47:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Warner Losh , Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <813.962312286@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:47:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: Poul-Henning Kamp's message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:58:06 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > [about the beerware license] Well, I sure owe you some for phkmalloc, but I'm still trying to decide if I just owe you *one*, or if I owe you one for every call to malloc() in every program I've every written on FreeBSD. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 5:38:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2185237C4DC for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 05:38:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [10.0.1.105]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C219B31; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:38:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bone.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5E7341DCB; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:38:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:38:48 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Chuck Robey , Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000630073848.C65332@bone.nectar.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from drosih@rpi.edu on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 12:23:27AM -0400 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 12:23:27AM -0400, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter > brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire > up ghostscript to print gif images...] For the record, LPRng per se has only a very simple filter for handling CR <-> CR/LF issues. Fancy filters are supplied by IFHP, including e.g. PostScript -> PCL conversion using GhostScript. While I'm wasting bandwidth, I'll just say that if LPRng were available under the BSD license, I would be in favor of importing it. It is much nicer from an administrative point of view, even without any fancy filters. If it were imported, IFHP could also be imported or it could remain a port. I tend to think that the latter would be better. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 6:10: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816BF37B71A for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id GAA18002; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:08:16 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda18000; Fri Jun 30 06:08:13 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA50406; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdq50404; Fri Jun 30 06:07:52 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.2/8.9.1) id e5UD7pu07184; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006301307.e5UD7pu07184@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdlu7180; Fri Jun 30 06:07:20 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Chuck Robey , Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:23:27 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:07:20 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Garance A Drosihn writes: > At 9:04 PM -0400 6/28/00, Chuck Robey wrote: > >On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? > > > > > > Because apsfilter also brings in far more useless junk that > > > LPRng does. 26,000 lines over our current lpr == LPRng. > > > apsfilter == LPRng + lots and lots and lots of other crap. > > > >I'm curious about that. How does LPRng get gif to postscript > >conversion without ghostscript (one of the biggest pieces of > >"crap" you refer to). How does it get ascii (or any other > >format) to postscript? > > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for > printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for > doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, > perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm > to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. > > [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter > brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire > up ghostscript to print gif images...] For some printers you'll need ghostscript. I for example have an Epson printer which uses a proprietary Epson language called ESC/2. Apsfilter uses ghostscript to convert postscript or anything else for that matter into ESC/2 so my printer can print it. For Windows, Epson distributes a driver that performs, in the loosest terms, the same function as ghostscript. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 6:19:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18E537B5B0 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89953; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:18:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:18:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for > printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for > doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, > perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm > to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. > > [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter > brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire > up ghostscript to print gif images...] Because postscript printers only print postscript, and not gif. You need some method of changing your input format (whatever it is) to postscript. You need that capability for every format that you want to print. Using apsfilter (which sizes out on the distribution file at around 220K, I think) I can send just about any format I want to directly to lp, and it DTRT. No flags, it just DTRT. Will's comments about apsfilter being such a beast confuse me, because the LPRng distribution sizes out (compressed, just like the size I gave for the apsfilter dist) at 1.7M. I can't tell for sure what it's capabilities are, but I don't think it has either the features or the small size of apsfilter (which is all shell scripts anyhow). So, apsfilter requires that you have in your machine tools to do that conversion for you. It isn't fussy, it will let you choose some (it wants a2ps for text conversion to postscript, but it'll take enscript, I think, too). It wants the same kinda thing for jpeg, for gif, etc, etc. The shell scripts just manage the dispatch of everything for you. Also, LPRng requires gmake. Going to be a nice bit of work, bmaking that fellow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 6:22:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3EB37C494 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 77ADF9B36; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:22:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:22:33 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Chuck Robey Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000630082233.B90316@spawn.nectar.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:18:34AM -0400 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:18:34AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > Also, LPRng requires gmake. Going to be a nice bit of work, bmaking that > fellow. LPRng includes a Makefile.bsd (albiet a stale one). That perhaps provides a fighting chance. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 6:53: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D50537B9F6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id GAA18145; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:50:37 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda18143; Fri Jun 30 06:50:20 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA50724; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpds50710; Fri Jun 30 06:49:53 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.2/8.9.1) id e5UDnqq07505; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006301349.e5UDnqq07505@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdSN7501; Fri Jun 30 06:49:35 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Warner Losh , Will Andrews , Wes Peters , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "30 Jun 2000 12:47:16 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:49:35 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > [about the beerware license] > > Well, I sure owe you some for phkmalloc, but I'm still trying to > decide if I just owe you *one*, or if I owe you one for every call to > malloc() in every program I've every written on FreeBSD. I make beer in my spare time. I currently have a bock and a cervesa on hand, and usually have a bock or porter here. If you're ever here on Vancouver Island, stop and visit I'll share some with you. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 7: 2:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0848937C5BE for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:02:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id HAA18199; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:00:37 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda18197; Fri Jun 30 07:00:22 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA50825; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdp50800; Fri Jun 30 06:59:54 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.2/8.9.1) id e5UDxrW07592; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200006301359.e5UDxrW07592@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdXa7588; Fri Jun 30 06:59:52 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Chuck Robey , Garance A Drosihn , Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:22:33 CDT." <20000630082233.B90316@spawn.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:59:52 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000630082233.B90316@spawn.nectar.com>, "Jacques A. Vidrine" write s: > On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:18:34AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > Also, LPRng requires gmake. Going to be a nice bit of work, bmaking that > > fellow. > > LPRng includes a Makefile.bsd (albiet a stale one). That perhaps > provides a fighting chance. Lets replace bmake with gmake in the base system. Gmake is more popular and used in RedHat. Just kidding :) (It's virtually the start of a long weekend here and I couldn't resist, sorry). Seriously, you're right, bmaking the Makefile is going to be an unpleasant task. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 10:26:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3491037C3DD for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06436; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:26:13 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:26:35 -0400 To: Chuck Robey From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:18 AM -0400 6/30/00, Chuck Robey wrote: >On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > > PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for > > printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for > > doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, > > perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm > > to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. > > > > [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter > > brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire > > up ghostscript to print gif images...] > >Because postscript printers only print postscript, and not gif. Well, I'm aware of that part... :-) I think you're answering a bigger question than I'm asking. Let me put it this way. I have printed many GIF images in my life, and at no time have I fired up ghostscript to do it. Not once. None of my personal computers even have ghostscript installed (even though all our public workstations do). Thus, my first reaction is that a person doesn't NEED ghostscript to print a GIF image on a postscript printer. My first guess might be to use something like netpbm, or to look into ports/graphics/gif* to see what packages are there. I understand apsfilter is using ghostscript for a number of other very useful things. I just thought the specific comment about using ghostscript to print GIF images seemed odd. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 15:31:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EB737B9FB for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5UMVpM24143 for arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:31:51 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite handy. I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 asap, any objections? thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 15:57:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6598337B641 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:57:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm014-008.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.120]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA30187; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:57:17 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ACDD71987; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:55:05 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000630185505.K45643@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > > http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 > > tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite > handy. > > I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 > asap, any objections? I say go for it. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 16: 2:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFE237BC96 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA11245 for arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:02:51 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000630160251.A11113@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there HP-UX 10.20 claims these functions conform to AES, SVID2, SVID3, XPG2, XPG3, XPG4 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 16: 9:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D235837B918; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e5UN9EE25238; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:09:14 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000630160914.N275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000630160251.A11113@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000630160251.A11113@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:02:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [000630 16:04] wrote: > On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there > > HP-UX 10.20 claims these functions conform to > AES, SVID2, SVID3, XPG2, XPG3, XPG4 HP-UX eh? :) So I'm good to go on this? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 16:14:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E5937BC96 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:14:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA11316; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:13:54 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Chuck Robey Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000630161354.C11113@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:18:34AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:18:34AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > Also, LPRng requires gmake. Going to be a nice bit of work, bmaking that > fellow. Don't worry, I can bmake anything written in ASM/C/C++.* -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) * the languages are stipulated so I can claim ignorance of the Perl build. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 16:58: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D0637C3AC for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:58:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@bsdi.com) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA75551; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@bsdi.com) Received: from bsdi.com (jhb@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA40439; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@bsdi.com) Message-ID: <395D33E9.C3697A0E@bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:57:29 -0700 From: John Baldwin Organization: BSD, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > > http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 > > tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite > handy. > > I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 > asap, any objections? Looks good. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 17:38:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5C337B687; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:38:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91551; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:38:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:38:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000630161354.C11113@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 09:18:34AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > Also, LPRng requires gmake. Going to be a nice bit of work, bmaking that > > fellow. > > Don't worry, I can bmake anything written in ASM/C/C++.* Oh, I knew that; I was just pointing out that it wasn't without it's complications. I saw that post of, uh, I think it was Will who intimated that apsfilter was huge next to LPRng (the opposite may be more likely to be true). I was trying to goad someone who's installed LPRng to say how it goes about printing gifs, ascii, jpegs, etc, on a postscript printer. If LPRng itself calls out to ghostscript, then the claim about LPRng being smaller is very false. I won't install LPRng, I like my apsfilter install, and don't want to mess with it (it was kinda difficult getting my set of mismatched ghostscript drivers for my HP printer working at optimum, and I won't upset the applecart now). Hasn't anyone installed it, and is willing to discuss how it works for them? I haven't *seen* that much talked about bsd-licensed version, tho. When that shows up, I stop opposing things. I'm not against LPRng itself, actually, just bringing in non-bsd licensed stuff without a sufficiently strong reason, which I don't think we have. If Chuck Paterson had the BSD for BSDi, I bet someone just has to be serious in asking the LPRng authors about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 19: 2:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E81237B742 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA91721; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:01:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:01:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 9:04 PM -0400 6/28/00, Chuck Robey wrote: > >On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:41:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > Erm, then why not do this with apsfilter? > > > > > > Because apsfilter also brings in far more useless junk that > > > LPRng does. 26,000 lines over our current lpr == LPRng. > > > apsfilter == LPRng + lots and lots and lots of other crap. > > > >I'm curious about that. How does LPRng get gif to postscript > >conversion without ghostscript (one of the biggest pieces of > >"crap" you refer to). How does it get ascii (or any other > >format) to postscript? > > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for > printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for > doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, > perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm > to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. Were you aware that most of the netpbm things that go into postscript CALL ghostscript? In fact, since you say you've been printing jpegs and gifs for a long time, go a look (a closer one) at the executeables you've been using. How do they do it? > > [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter > brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire > up ghostscript to print gif images...] > > > --- > Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu > Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 19:18:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF0537B760; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 717A29B3A; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:18:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:18:30 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Chuck Robey Cc: David O'Brien , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000630211830.B22972@spawn.nectar.com> References: <20000630161354.C11113@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 08:38:33PM -0400 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 08:38:33PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > I was trying to goad someone who's installed LPRng to say how > it goes about printing gifs, ascii, jpegs, etc, on a postscript > printer. If LPRng itself calls out to ghostscript, then the claim about > LPRng being smaller is very false. LPRng itself doesn't have clever filters. Typically one will use IFHP (a clever filter), and that in turn will use ghostscript if necessary. [I have not compared the size of apsfilter vs. LPRng.] > Hasn't anyone installed it, and is willing to discuss how it works for > them? I was using apsfilter (for 2+ years), I am now using LPRng + IFHP. It works well. My personal comparison of the two: apsfilter -- always converts to postscript -- converts MANY formats automatically LPRng+IFHP -- easier to set up -- MUCH better administrative tools than lpr -- user security (rather than host) -- support for Socket API, AppSocket (HP JetDirect and Tektronix respectively) One must understand that LPRng replaces BSD lpd et. al. Filters are still needed. It is quite possible to run LPRng+apsfilter if one wants to do so, for example. Now the bad news: Don't try to use the ports. They are out of date. LPRng will not compile on -STABLE without a patch. IFHP does not work with parallel printers on -STABLE. Yes, I'm planning to update the ports if the MAINTAINER does not. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 19:27:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7A737B59F for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA91799; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:27:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:27:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Will Andrews , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <200006301307.e5UD7pu07184@cwsys.cwsent.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > > PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for > > printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for > > doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, > > perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm > > to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. > > > > [this says nothing about how much stuff lprng or apsfilter > > brings in, of course. I'm just not sure why one would fire > > up ghostscript to print gif images...] > > For some printers you'll need ghostscript. I for example have an Epson > printer which uses a proprietary Epson language called ESC/2. > Apsfilter uses ghostscript to convert postscript or anything else for > that matter into ESC/2 so my printer can print it. For Windows, Epson > distributes a driver that performs, in the loosest terms, the same > function as ghostscript. OK, if that's true, then the comments about apsfilter being such a huge hog as compared to LPRng are totally incorrect (and in fact the situation is in fact the reverse of what was said). Apsfilter + our present lpd would be a lot smaller. Could anyone proposing LPRng please state the improvements that LPRng provides over lpd + apsfilter? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 19:27:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7903237B633; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4DF529B36; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:27:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:27:54 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: David O'Brien Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000630212754.C22972@spawn.nectar.com> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000630160251.A11113@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000630160251.A11113@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@freebsd.org on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:02:51PM -0700 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:02:51PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there > > HP-UX 10.20 claims these functions conform to > AES, SVID2, SVID3, XPG2, XPG3, XPG4 + SUSv2. They also appear to be in GNU libc. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 20:34:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C10437B76A for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 1781 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2000 03:34:12 -0000 Received: from du03.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.3) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2000 03:34:12 -0000 Message-ID: <395D469A.A41CA0A7@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:17:14 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <200006291727.KAA99343@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > Damned lawyers :-) That's redundant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 22:24:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (c1mailgw1.prontomail.com [208.178.29.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243ED37B5ED for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: by c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 3958EAA7000696A3; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:23:22 -0700 Received: from 209.88.169.142 by SmtpServer for ; Sat, 01 Jul 2000 05:22:44 +0000 Message-ID: <395D81B5.35937B89@asme.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:29:25 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuck Robey Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chuck Robey wrote: > ... > > Were you aware that most of the netpbm things that go into postscript CALL > ghostscript? In fact, since you say you've been printing jpegs and gifs > for a long time, go a look (a closer one) at the executeables you've been > using. How do they do it? > FWIW, hp2xx can do some conversions between several formats and PCL and stuff used by plotters. When I updated the GNU ghostscript port (now dead as far as I am concerned), I added a PCL driver that converts all the ghostscript stuff to PCL. I suggested Martin Lottermoser (the author) a module for X, somewhat like display postscript, that could handle PCL instead of ps, he then claimed that this was a good idea because hislatest version didn't depend on ghostscript anymore. This is getting off-topic, but when I looked at apsfilter I disliked two things: 1) the license. 2) It required configuring some stuff to build so it was not available as a package. I disagree on converting everything to postscript in the first place so I ended up using one of the filters that comes with ghostcript. I have not used LPRng lately but, except for future compatibility with BSDi, I don't see any reason to replace our lpd. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 30 23:12:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B636C37B767 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04233; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 00:10:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <395D8BEE.C4B82F84@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:13:02 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Warner Losh , Will Andrews , Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, romeo@montague.vs.capulet.bsdconspiracy.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <813.962312286@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <200006291829.MAA35129@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: > >In message <20000629135043.E24486@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Will Andrews writes: > >: Are you saying lawyers will dare ask these questions which only deserve > >: in reply, "That depends on what your definition of ``a'' is." ;-> > >: > >: And then, "That depends on what your definition of ``some day'' is." ;-> > > > >Or "can" :-) > > Or, more importantly: "[...], and you think this stuff is worth it, [...]" Which "you"? You the programmer that stuffed it into the product, who are more qualified than any to judge it's merit, or you the product manager who got clubbed with it, or you the corporate decision-maker who gets to decide if the product can be shipped or not? You the end user who perceives the ultimate value of the product, but little or none of the operational details? Lawyers suck. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 2: 8:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A675337B9B0 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mal@algonet.se) Received: (qmail 12395 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2000 11:08:43 +0200 Received: from sinclair.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.101) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 1 Jul 2000 11:08:43 +0200 Received: from kairos.algonet.se (kairos.algonet.se [194.213.74.201]) by sinclair.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 785536.442522.962sinclair-s2 ; Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:08:42 +0200 Received: (mal@localhost) by kairos.algonet.se (8.8.8+Sun/8.6.12) id LAA25707; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:08:42 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:08:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200007010908.LAA25707@kairos.algonet.se> X-Authentication-Warning: kairos.algonet.se: mal set sender to mal@kairos.algonet.se using -f From: Mats Lofkvist To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: drosih@rpi.edu, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Chuck Robey on Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:01:52 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 Chuck Robey wrote: On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > PDF) into postscript. I suspect apsfilter only uses it for > printing postscript jobs on non-postscript printers, or for > doing clever manipulation of postscript (for page-counting, > perhaps). I would be inclined to use something like netpbm > to get GIF images INTO postscript. Not ghostscript. Were you aware that most of the netpbm things that go into postscript CALL ghostscript? In fact, since you say you've been printing jpegs and gifs for a long time, go a look (a closer one) at the executeables you've been using. How do they do it? There is only one netpbm tool converting into postscript (pnmtops) and it is not using ghostscript, it is close to trivial even without any postscript support libs. _ Mats Lofkvist mal@algonet.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 2:13:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C201B37B9AF for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e619DnK84914; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:13:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA41903; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:13:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:13:44 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000701111344.S307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:31:51PM -0700 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000701 04:01], Alfred Perlstein (bright@wintelcom.net) wrote: >I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > >http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 > >tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite >handy. > >I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 >asap, any objections? No. SUSv2 search.h: int hcreate(size_t); void hdestroy(void); ENTRY *hsearch(ENTRY, ACTION); void insque(void *, void *); void *lfind(const void *, const void *, size_t *, size_t, int (*)(const void *, const void *)); void *lsearch(const void *, void *, size_t *, size_t, int (*)(const void *, const void *)); void remque(void *); void *tdelete(const void *, void **, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); void *tfind(const void *, void *const *, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); void *tsearch(const void *, void **, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); void twalk(const void *, void (*)(const void *, VISIT, int )); Any chance of implementing the rest as well? =) Obtw, still waiting for the kblob/filter manpages. *ducks 'n runs* -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project I believe because it is impossible... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 3:44: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D5F37BA00 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e61Ahtp12735; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:43:55 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000701034355.F25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000701111344.S307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000701111344.S307@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from asmodai@wxs.nl on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 11:13:44AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai [000701 02:14] wrote: > -On [20000701 04:01], Alfred Perlstein (bright@wintelcom.net) wrote: > >I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > > > >http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 > > > >tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite > >handy. > > > >I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 > >asap, any objections? > > No. > > SUSv2 search.h: > > int hcreate(size_t); > void hdestroy(void); > ENTRY *hsearch(ENTRY, ACTION); > void insque(void *, void *); > void *lfind(const void *, const void *, size_t *, size_t, int (*)(const void *, const void *)); > void *lsearch(const void *, void *, size_t *, size_t, int (*)(const void *, const void *)); > void remque(void *); > void *tdelete(const void *, void **, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); > void *tfind(const void *, void *const *, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); > void *tsearch(const void *, void **, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); > void twalk(const void *, void (*)(const void *, VISIT, int )); > > Any chance of implementing the rest as well? =) ack! they are, in libcompat! (except the t* stuff) Does this mean they ought to be put back into libc? removed from libcompat as well? It's somewhat confusing, Solaris seems to have all this stuff available in the mainline libc, should we as well? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 3:49:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BDC37B6FF for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:49:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e61AnVN87749; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:49:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA53729; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:48:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:48:31 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000701124831.V307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000701111344.S307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20000701034355.F25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000701034355.F25571@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:43:55AM -0700 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000701 12:46], Alfred Perlstein (bright@wintelcom.net) wrote: >ack! they are, in libcompat! (except the t* stuff) > >Does this mean they ought to be put back into libc? removed from >libcompat as well? It's somewhat confusing, Solaris seems to have >all this stuff available in the mainline libc, should we as well? It's a choice of whether we want to adhere to standards or not. I am more in favor of doing so. I think we are a good platform for serious developers to target and standards like SUSv2 come in handy on a lot of fronts. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Misery loves company... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 3:58:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E3437BA45; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e61AwJl13108; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:58:19 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, peter@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000701035819.G25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000701111344.S307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20000701034355.F25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000701124831.V307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000701124831.V307@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from asmodai@wxs.nl on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 12:48:31PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai [000701 03:49] wrote: > -On [20000701 12:46], Alfred Perlstein (bright@wintelcom.net) wrote: > >ack! they are, in libcompat! (except the t* stuff) > > > >Does this mean they ought to be put back into libc? removed from > >libcompat as well? It's somewhat confusing, Solaris seems to have > >all this stuff available in the mainline libc, should we as well? > > It's a choice of whether we want to adhere to standards or not. I am > more in favor of doing so. > > I think we are a good platform for serious developers to target and > standards like SUSv2 come in handy on a lot of fronts. Shall we repo copy the files from libcompat and remove the libcompat references from the manpages? I'm pretty sure that as long as they don't exist in both libraries (libc and libcompat) applications shouldn't have a problem. Peter? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 4:12:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603A637BA39 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 04:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from bissau-52.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.53.180] helo=jules.elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 138LRJ-0002tx-00; Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:28:02 +0200 Message-ID: <395DD1FF.41C67EA6@elischer.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:11:59 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000701111344.S307@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There's a PD tsearch library available from comp.sources.{misc,unix?} from 1990 or there-abouts (from memory). If you want to look at it, it's also available on http://www.freebsd.org/~julian/ under the heading "CBASIC-to-C translator" because I originally used tsearch and needed it to get the translator working under FreeBSD. It includes man pages but I suspect they may be from sun or somewhere. Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > -On [20000701 04:01], Alfred Perlstein (bright@wintelcom.net) wrote: > >I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > > > >http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 > > > >tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite > >handy. > > > >I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 > >asap, any objections? > > No. > > SUSv2 search.h: > > int hcreate(size_t); > void hdestroy(void); > ENTRY *hsearch(ENTRY, ACTION); > void insque(void *, void *); > void *lfind(const void *, const void *, size_t *, size_t, int (*)(const void *, const void *)); > void *lsearch(const void *, void *, size_t *, size_t, int (*)(const void *, const void *)); > void remque(void *); > void *tdelete(const void *, void **, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); > void *tfind(const void *, void *const *, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); > void *tsearch(const void *, void **, int(*)(const void *, const void *)); > void twalk(const void *, void (*)(const void *, VISIT, int )); > > Any chance of implementing the rest as well? =) > > Obtw, still waiting for the kblob/filter manpages. *ducks 'n runs* > > -- > Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] > Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > I believe because it is impossible... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 )_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 4:15:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (grimreaper.grondar.za [196.7.18.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DBC37BA0E for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 04:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15576 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:16:29 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200007011116.NAA15576@grimreaper.grondar.za> To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Where to put make variable PERLVER= ?? Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:16:29 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi I would like to create a system-wide variable PERLVER (I'm not religious about the name) that will tell any (b)Makefile what version of perl the current build has in it, so that (say) FOO= /dir/subdir/${PERLVER}/bar in a Makefile will Do The Right Thing. Is sys.mk the right or OK place to put this? M To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 8:10:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailtoaster2.pipeline.ch (mailtoaster2.pipeline.ch [62.48.0.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE0137B52A for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@telehouse.ch) Received: (qmail 13025 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2000 15:13:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO telehouse.ch) ([62.48.0.53]) (envelope-sender ) by mailtoaster2.pipeline.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-MD5 encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Jul 2000 15:13:13 -0000 Message-ID: <395E09CC.2EEB627D@telehouse.ch> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:10:04 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Import of new NetBSD ARP subsystem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What is the status of the import of the link-level independent arp subsystem? Are there any arguments against importing it? Shall this be done before or after the SMP instability? Description here: http://www.daemonnews.org/199809/underhood.html Yes, I will provide a patch relative to -current if one of the committers is interested in committing it. -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 9:14:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9579A37B792 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 138PuB-0003XK-00; Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:31:51 MST." <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0200 Message-ID: <13597.962468047@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:31:51 MST, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > > http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 I don't think you should bother asking if you're going to give people less than 24 hours to respond. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 10:13: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73D637B69A for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [10.0.1.105]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024159B2A; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:13:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bone.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C840A1DCB; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:13:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:13:05 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. Message-ID: <20000701121305.C96751@bone.nectar.com> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> <13597.962468047@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <13597.962468047@axl.ops.uunet.co.za>; from sheldonh@uunet.co.za on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 06:14:07PM +0200 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 06:14:07PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > I don't think you should bother asking if you're going to give people > less than 24 hours to respond. IMHO, something that is specified by several standards and included by all BSDs but FreeBSD have pretty good call to be on a fast track. This appears to be the case with tsearch et. al. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 10:19:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D20D37B81D; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e61HJKb21204; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:19:19 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Bruce Evans Cc: arch@freebsd.org, peter@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/include search.h Makefile src/lib/libc/stdlib tdelete.c tfind.c tsearch.3 tsearch.c twalk.c Makefile.inc Message-ID: <20000701101919.I25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200007010655.XAA28655@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bde@zeta.org.au on Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 01:15:55AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Bruce Evans [000701 08:16] wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > alfred 2000/06/30 23:55:12 PDT > > > > Modified files: > > include Makefile > > lib/libc/stdlib Makefile.inc > > Added files: > > include search.h > > lib/libc/stdlib tdelete.c tfind.c tsearch.3 tsearch.c > > twalk.c > > Log: > > bring in binary search tree code. > > This is very nonstd. stdlib is for things in . Ok, here's what the plan _was_: part 1) (done) bring in tsearch and friends from NetBSD. part 2) repo copy the files insque.3 insque.c lsearch.3 lsearch.c and remque.c from src/lib/libcompat/4.3/ into src/lib/libc/stdlib and fixup the Makefiles. part 3) remove repo copied items from libcompat and fixup the manpages, the interfaces are not obsolete, they are required by SUSv2. part 4) remove bsearch from search.h (it's already in stdlib.h) part 5) polish up manpages a bit more. I need Peter or someone with cvs-foo to accomplish part 2. I also need feedback to know where this is incorrect and where to actually dump the files if not libc/stdlib. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 12: 8:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C647337B8E3; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [10.0.1.105]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052339B2A; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:08:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bone.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C6DAA1DCB; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:08:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:08:42 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Bruce Evans , arch@freebsd.org, peter@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/include search.h Makefile src/lib/libc/stdlib tdelete.c tfind.c tsearch.3 tsearch.c twalk.c Makefile.inc Message-ID: <20000701140842.A97167@bone.nectar.com> References: <200007010655.XAA28655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000701101919.I25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000701101919.I25571@fw.wintelcom.net>; from alfred@freebsd.org on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 10:19:19AM -0700 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [btw, SUSv2 can be found at http://www.opengroup.com, among other things] On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > part 2) > repo copy the files insque.3 insque.c lsearch.3 lsearch.c and remque.c > from src/lib/libcompat/4.3/ into src/lib/libc/stdlib and fixup the > Makefiles. SUSv2 says: insque, remque --- stdlib.h lsearch --- search.h > part 4) > remove bsearch from search.h (it's already in stdlib.h) SUSv2 says: bsearch --- stdlib.h And as previously stated, tsearch goes in . This seems dumb. I would expect [bhlt]search, at least, to all be in ... bsearch seems to be odd man out. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 12:22:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CAC37B69A for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA59892; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:22:17 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Andre Oppermann Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of new NetBSD ARP subsystem Message-ID: <20000701122217.C59770@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <395E09CC.2EEB627D@telehouse.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <395E09CC.2EEB627D@telehouse.ch>; from oppermann@telehouse.ch on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 05:10:04PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 05:10:04PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: > What is the status of the import of the link-level independent arp > subsystem? ...snip... > Description here: > http://www.daemonnews.org/199809/underhood.html Since daemonnews.org isn't answering me at the moment, you would do a much better selling job if you would give some _details_ in your email. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 13:28:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7423237B9DB for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:28:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e61KSCu83448; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:28:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17488; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:03:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:03:51 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where to put make variable PERLVER= ?? Message-ID: <20000701220351.I26119@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <200007011116.NAA15576@grimreaper.grondar.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007011116.NAA15576@grimreaper.grondar.za>; from mark@grondar.za on Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:16:29PM +0200 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000701 13:31], Mark Murray (mark@grondar.za) wrote: >I would like to create a system-wide variable PERLVER (I'm not religious >about the name) that will tell any (b)Makefile what version of perl the >current build has in it, so that (say) > >FOO= /dir/subdir/${PERLVER}/bar > >in a Makefile will Do The Right Thing. > >Is sys.mk the right or OK place to put this? This looks like the most sane choice of /usr/share/mk/*.mk. I'd say yes. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Your lunacy fits in neatly with my own, my very own... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 13:59:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A240837BA2F for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA225876; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:59:34 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:59:54 -0400 To: Chuck Robey From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:01 PM -0400 6/30/00, Chuck Robey wrote: > > I'm a bit spaced out right now, but offhand I don't see why > > ghostscript would be needed for converting anything (except > > PDF) into postscript. [...] I would be inclined to use > > something like netpbm to get GIF images INTO postscript. > > Not ghostscript. > >Were you aware that most of the netpbm things that go into >postscript CALL ghostscript? In fact, since you say you've >been printing jpegs and gifs for a long time, go a look (a >closer one) at the executeables you've been using. How do >they do it? I am not completely aware of how netpbm works, but I am fairly certain I have never (*) installed ghostscript. Thus, it REALLY did seem to me that ghostscript should not be required to get gif's into PS. I have now looked into this some more. I am doing some vmware testing now, so I did a fresh install of freebsd-4-stable in a new virtual machine. I then installed bash2, rsaref (for openssh) and netpbm. netpbm did install a few other things, none of which was ghostscript. If netpbm DOES require ghostscript, then the Makefile in the netpbm port needs to be fixed. My guess is that the Makefile is fine. I then did: cd /usr/local/share/doc/tiff/images giftopnm cat.gif | pnmtops > /tmp/cat.ps scp -p /tmp/cat.ps gad@my.nextstation: All the postscript-aware programs on my NeXTstation believe this produced a perfectly valid postscript file of some sort of tiger. On the virtual-machine where I did this conversion, 'find' tells me there is no executable version of either 'ghostscript' or 'gs' anywhere in '/usr'. And even though that .gif file is in a directory called 'tiff/images', the file command does assure me that the file really is a GIF image (version 89a). So, whatever I am or am not aware of, I am now pretty confident that my original hunch was correct. For the specific task of converting GIF files into postscript, it is pretty much certain that there is no requirement for Ghostscript. Now, lprNG or apsfilter may very well DECIDE to use ghostscript when printing gif images, and may have good reasons for doing that. But if so, then that is due to other issues, and not because ghostscript is somehow required for the simple task of converting gif images into valid postscript. Mind you, my original hunch wasn't really all that important of a topic to discuss, and I feel a little embarrassed that it resulted in this much discussion... It was just that it struck me as so incredibly odd that ghostscript would be used for that specific task that I felt compelled to ask for more details. I probably should have just gone home to bed, instead... :-) - - - - - - (*) - Okay, as luck would have it, I DID install ghostscript on my real machine just last night. Really though, I only *meant* to try out Gnome, but it turned out that making gnome also made about fifty other things, one of which was ghostscript. ARG!! So, the "never" isn't strictly true, but hey, it WAS true just last week! --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 1 16:24:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E4B37B83B for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:24:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11124; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:24:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28579; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:24:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:24:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007012324.RAA28579@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Importing tsearch routines. In-Reply-To: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000630153151.J275@fw.wintelcom.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would like to import Open/NetBSD's tsearch routines into libc: > > http://www.flame.org/cgi-bin/uncgi/hman?page=tsearch§=&arch=i386 > > tsearch seems to be in most every other libc out there and is quite > handy. > > I have it ready for inclusion, and would like to backport to 4.0 > asap, any objections? This will make building the JDK easier, since we currently use some free versions from one of the comp.sources.* archives currently. (In other words, I have no objection to this..) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message