From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 0:33:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCD337B423 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeppo.feral.com (IDENT:mjacob@zeppo [192.67.166.71]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04185; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:26:40 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:22:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Warner Losh Cc: Darren Reed , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-Reply-To: <200008200606.AAA30636@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Darren Reed writes: > : code that is hard to just "copy". The time it is taking for cardbus > : to arrive in FreeBSD, when it is already available in NetBSD, is a > : good example of this. (This is/was Warner Losh's baby, or am I > : confused ?) I'm *really* disappointed that FreeBSD doesn't (yet ?) > : support cardbus in 4.x (-current?) :-( > > It has become hard to just copy code from one BSD to another. It As someone who spends a fair amount of time doing just this, I have to say that the *BSD's have deviated significantly in many respects. So much so that very conscious major design choices have to be made to facilitate any kind of code sharing. I used to feel that this was a terrible thing. Now I'm not so sure. I believe that in places where it really might be important to share ways can be found to do s. In cases where one developer is common to all *BSDs, that developer will make the effort if appropriate and possible. In the case where you have major kernel APIs, it's harder, and given the intransigence of people in *all* camps, trying to bridge that is very hard- so much so that I think now that such differences should be *encouraged* instead. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 0:39:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (beachchick.freebsd.dk [212.242.32.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F6537B423 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA88244; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:38:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Warner Losh , Darren Reed , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:22:48 PDT." Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:38:45 +0200 Message-ID: <88242.966757125@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Matthew Jacob writes: >> In message <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Darren Reed writes: >> : code that is hard to just "copy". The time it is taking for cardbus >> : to arrive in FreeBSD, when it is already available in NetBSD, is a >> : good example of this. (This is/was Warner Losh's baby, or am I >> : confused ?) I'm *really* disappointed that FreeBSD doesn't (yet ?) >> : support cardbus in 4.x (-current?) :-( >> >> It has become hard to just copy code from one BSD to another. It > >As someone who spends a fair amount of time doing just this, I have to say >that the *BSD's have deviated significantly in many respects. So much so that >very conscious major design choices have to be made to facilitate any kind of >code sharing. I think attempting to keep the *BSD's compatible at the source code level would severely limit out ability to respond to where the market is headed. I can imagine how the jail facility would still be sitting in a "working group" trying to resolve if it should be called "jail" or "gaol". As long as the *BSD's are separate projects, coordination can only happen in the case where it's the same developer in all of the projects. Anything else is just futile dreaming... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 0:41:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA5537B43F; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA88772; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Darren Reed Cc: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com, mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:03:12 +1000." <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:40:32 -0700 Message-ID: <88769.966757232@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm not sure I understand what [practical] suggestions you're making here. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 0:48:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1AB937B422 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeppo.feral.com (IDENT:mjacob@zeppo [192.67.166.71]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04217; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:42:20 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:38:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Warner Losh , Darren Reed , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-Reply-To: <88242.966757125@critter> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I can imagine how the jail facility would still be sitting in a > "working group" trying to resolve if it should be called "jail" or > "gaol". > > As long as the *BSD's are separate projects, coordination can only > happen in the case where it's the same developer in all of the > projects. Anything else is just futile dreaming... To a certain degree, yes, I think I now agree with this. After about 4-5 years of this, then a POSIX for *BSDs effort will occur to try and at least get the system calls sorted out....*smack* *deja vu* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 1:43:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from darren2.lnk.telstra.net (darren2.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.53.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98DD37B424; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darren2.lnk.telstra.net (8.9.1/8.8.7) id IAA00819; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:43:07 GMT From: Darren Reed Message-Id: <200008200842.SAA07457@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-Reply-To: <88769.966757232@localhost> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 20, 0 00:40:32 am" To: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:42:42 +1000 (EST) Cc: mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some email I received from Jordan K. Hubbard, sie wrote: > I'm not sure I understand what [practical] suggestions you're > making here. I think people should build upon their strengths, at this stage, rather than spread themselves around. From comments made by others, I tend to think that it is less than trivial to add sparc plus it would seem that resources for it aren't exactly overwhelming. If people are saying the x86 part of FreeBSD is weakening (some say since the adoption of alpha) I don't think it is a good idea to start (or promote) work on a sparc port. To me, having people (not me!) make those sort of comments should be ringing alarm bells for those behind FreeBSD given its core user base is x86. Personally, I think it is more important for FreeBSD to concentrate on getting IA-64 (and AMD 64bit) support happening than for sparc64 and that sparc64 is a waste of time/effort for FreeBSD. Concentrate on what FreeBSD is good at doing and don't get distracted. Darren --- NetBSD/sparc64 - self-hosting for the new millennium! Port Home page: - http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/sparc64/ Complete 64bit snapshots: - ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/arch/sparc64/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 1:58:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA34837B42C; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeppo.feral.com (IDENT:mjacob@zeppo [192.67.166.71]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04342; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:58:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Darren Reed Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-Reply-To: <200008200842.SAA07457@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Personally, I think it is more important for FreeBSD to concentrate > on getting IA-64 (and AMD 64bit) support happening than for sparc64 > and that sparc64 is a waste of time/effort for FreeBSD. Concentrate > on what FreeBSD is good at doing and don't get distracted. I can't say I quite agree. There are approaches that the Alpha/FreeBSD port took that are an interesting spin on things not available in the NetBSD alpha port. I think it will be quite interesting to see a NewBus implementation on sparc, and whether that will make an E10K port easier. I rather think so. I guess I'm saying that in FreeBSD there is some fundamentally good multi-platform technology not available in NetBSD, which is quite surprising because most of FreeBSD hasn't the slightest clue about multi-platform issues. Personally, I think a FreeBSD SPARC port for the large scale 64 bit machines will happen, and should happen. I should think that major FreeBSD customers like Yahoo expect and deserve it. I don't believe that they are going to switch to NetBSD. I don't think FreeBSD should waste 30 seconds on non-64 bit sparc machines either. I don't think that this is a distraction from IA64 at all as the same folks are very unlikely to be working on both ports. In any case, it will only happen when somebody with the focus and moxy and time to do it busts loose the ~2 months it will take to do. If I had the time, I sure might, but I don't (I'm trying to reduce the number of things I've promised to others for months first). -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 11:49:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2205037B43E for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel3.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968E511E0 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id LAA24432 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39A02834.E6500194@cup.hp.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:49:24 -0700 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: RFC: Linuxulator MI bits in sys/compat/linux Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, I've been working on splitting the Linuxulator in a machine dependent part and a machine independent part. This allows us to port the Linuxulator to different platforms, of which the Alpha will be the first. I like to have consensus about where the MI bits will live. My proposal is: sys/compat/linux Pros: o It gives us a place for other -ulators such as svr4 o It doesn't "polute" the sys/ root. o It matches sysctl, which has compat.linux.* Cons: o We need to repocopy other compat stuff to have the full advantage of this scheme. Request: This topic has a high bikeshed probability quotient. I ask everyone to keep focused and constructive. Thanks, -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 11:54:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A6937B424 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA78140; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:53:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:53:45 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <87663.966713907@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [i removed -sparc from cc: list] Oh - and while I'm replying to Jordans mail, I agree with anything he says. On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The Intel platform would seem to be dying, and we'd do well to port to > > better platforms. Our alpha code is ages cleaner than the x86 code, at > > least. > > Heh. I'm not sure I'd share your conclusion that "The Intel platform > is dying" given the extreme growth and increased competition I've been > seeing in that marketplace; there are even x86 compatible chips which > are beginning to compete with the StrongARM in terms of price and > power consumption, and let's not forget our friends at Transmeta > driving the next generation of flat panel "Internet computing slates". > Anybody even pondering the soon arriving end of x86 needs to take a look at pdp11, and consider the fact that they are still being made. Sounds strange? Now consider that at this point, x86 is not exactly in maintenance mode but there are 3 viciously compting producers. I expect new P5 based systems to come out until at the very least next 5 years, by which time anybody has switched to P6, etc. Not a chance of it going into 'maintenance' for the next 10-15 years at the very least, and there will be at least another 15 years of life after that. It only then that x86 will start resembling sparc v8. [snip] > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 11:59:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-115.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4912237B422 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00421; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 12:09:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200008201909.MAA00421@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Linuxulator MI bits in sys/compat/linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:49:24 PDT." <39A02834.E6500194@cup.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 12:09:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Yes, I like it." > Hi all, > > I've been working on splitting the Linuxulator in a machine dependent > part and a machine independent part. This allows us to port the > Linuxulator to different platforms, of which the Alpha will be the > first. > > I like to have consensus about where the MI bits will live. My proposal > is: > > sys/compat/linux > > Pros: > o It gives us a place for other -ulators such as svr4 > o It doesn't "polute" the sys/ root. > o It matches sysctl, which has compat.linux.* > > Cons: > o We need to repocopy other compat stuff to have the full > advantage of this scheme. > > Request: > This topic has a high bikeshed probability quotient. I ask everyone to > keep focused and constructive. > > Thanks, > > -- > Marcel Moolenaar > mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org > tel: (408) 447-4222 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 13:30:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16D437B43F; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA98354; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Darren Reed Cc: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:42:42 +1000." <200008200842.SAA07457@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:29:01 -0700 Message-ID: <98351.966803341@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think people should build upon their strengths, at this stage, > rather than spread themselves around. From comments made by others, > I tend to think that it is less than trivial to add sparc plus it > would seem that resources for it aren't exactly overwhelming. This is very true, though fortunately only half-true. The resources for doing a quality FreeBSD/sparc port are actually present in the community, they're just lying dormant, like gophers in the winter. :) This makes what you say true from the perspective of not having such resources available right now, but leaves grounds for hope that what happened with the Alpha will also happen with the SPARC, e.g. a couple of mavricks will dive into it and rapidly advance things to the stage where Something Serious(tm) is happening on that front. At that stage, many of the sleeping rodents suddenly wake up and you now have a full team working away on it. I also think the Alpha port was an important step for the project in that it got us 64 bit clean well before the IA64 arrived and it validated the concept that we could do something non-x86 based on an ongoing basis. For the network appliance market, a important and growing segment of what some of FreeBSD's core "PC interest group" is morphing into, we need to get onto architectures like MIPS, PowerPC and StrongARM and doing any sorts of non-x86 ports are good practice for this. > If people are saying the x86 part of FreeBSD is weakening (some Only one person has said this so far and I think he was actually about as wrong as one can get about that. If there was a groundswell of such opinion then that would obviously be a big wake-up call for us, but such is definitely not the case as the x86 remains the principal focus for an overwhelming majority of FreeBSD's developers. Almost too much so I think sometimes. As to the IA64, that's basically stalled simply because there are so few people out there with the equipment (once that changes, things will accelerate greatly). For the same reason, it's not a major priority for the corporate world yet either. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 15:36:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from netplex.com.au (adsl-63-207-30-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.207.30.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A7937B424; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netplex.com.au (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netplex.com.au (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e7KMaPG23050; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200008202236.e7KMaPG23050@netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Mike Smith Cc: Marcel Moolenaar , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Linuxulator MI bits in sys/compat/linux In-Reply-To: <200008201909.MAA00421@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:36:25 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > "Yes, I like it." Likewise. IMHO, this is a Good Thing. > > Hi all, > > > > I've been working on splitting the Linuxulator in a machine dependent > > part and a machine independent part. This allows us to port the > > Linuxulator to different platforms, of which the Alpha will be the > > first. > > > > I like to have consensus about where the MI bits will live. My proposal > > is: > > > > sys/compat/linux > > > > Pros: > > o It gives us a place for other -ulators such as svr4 > > o It doesn't "polute" the sys/ root. > > o It matches sysctl, which has compat.linux.* > > > > Cons: > > o We need to repocopy other compat stuff to have the full > > advantage of this scheme. > > > > Request: > > This topic has a high bikeshed probability quotient. I ask everyone to > > keep focused and constructive. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > Marcel Moolenaar > > mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org > > tel: (408) 447-4222 > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > > > > -- > ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his > rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want > to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force > people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 15:52:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from snark.piermont.com (snark.piermont.com [206.1.51.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E5D37B43C; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by snark.piermont.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EB11E1E00C8; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:52:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition References: <200008202212.IAA08232@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: 20 Aug 2000 18:52:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: Darren Reed's message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:12:23 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: <87d7j3lf4g.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > This is very true, though fortunately only half-true. The resources > for doing a quality FreeBSD/sparc port are actually present in the > community, they're just lying dormant, like gophers in the winter. :) You mean "The NetBSD code base is easy enough to copy and call our own. Why don't we just do it. Surely they aren't going to complain -- after all, it is all open source. It worked for Alpha, after all." By the way, those wanting to run an open source BSD on a Sparc today can just download our stuff. It works. Its clean. It is in no obvious way inferior to anything you could possibly produce after a large amount of your own effort taking our code. If there are things you don't like about the way it works, we happily take fixes. -- Perry E. Metzger perry@wasabisystems.com -- Quality NetBSD Sales, Support & Service. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 20:47:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15D037B422; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01233; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:33:37 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:33:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: "Perry E. Metzger" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: <87d7j3lf4g.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20 Aug 2000, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > > > This is very true, though fortunately only half-true. The resources > > for doing a quality FreeBSD/sparc port are actually present in the > > community, they're just lying dormant, like gophers in the winter. :) > > You mean "The NetBSD code base is easy enough to copy and call our > own. Why don't we just do it. Surely they aren't going to complain -- > after all, it is all open source. It worked for Alpha, after all." I don't think that this is a fair characterization, Perry. The FreeBSD port bootstrapped itself this way, but has changed significantly since then. Snide comments ill-become you. > By the way, those wanting to run an open source BSD on a Sparc today > can just download our stuff. It works. Its clean. It is in no obvious > way inferior to anything you could possibly produce after a large > amount of your own effort taking our code. If there are things you > don't like about the way it works, we happily take fixes. See other mail as to why this might not be the right approach for FreeBSD. As soon as I get more cycles, Perry, I plan to help the sparc64 NetBSD port along. I see it as a separate project from anything in FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 20 20:53:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771B237B423; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 23:53:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Peter Wemm Cc: Mike Smith , Marcel Moolenaar , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Linuxulator MI bits in sys/compat/linux In-Reply-To: <200008202236.e7KMaPG23050@netplex.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 20 Aug 2000, Peter Wemm wrote: > Mike Smith wrote: > > > > "Yes, I like it." > > Likewise. IMHO, this is a Good Thing. While we're busy agreeing, I'd like to agree, too :) > > > [...] > > > I like to have consensus about where the MI bits will live. My proposal > > > is: > > > > > > sys/compat/linux > > > [...] > > > -- > > > Marcel Moolenaar > > > mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org > > > tel: (408) 447-4222 -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 3: 2: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5ED37B423; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 03:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA00447; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 03:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Perry E. Metzger" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition In-reply-to: Your message of "20 Aug 2000 18:52:31 EDT." <87d7j3lf4g.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 03:01:01 -0700 Message-ID: <444.966852061@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You mean "The NetBSD code base is easy enough to copy and call our > own. Why don't we just do it. Surely they aren't going to complain -- > after all, it is all open source. It worked for Alpha, after all." Heh. This is a historically "interesting" perspective and suggests that personal bias may have overpowered the reality of actual events for someone. :-) I've certainly never heard anyone refer to the Alpha code as "our own", from either a personal or a FreeBSD project perspective, and I would openly challenge you to find any such assertions on a FreeBSD mailing list. I can nonetheless save you the trouble of looking because they don't exist. I believe the only person who could credibly claim the Alpha bits as "his own" in any sense would be Chris Demetriou, and I've never heard that fact openly disputed by anyone in the BSD community. That's his copyright plainly at the top of alpha/alpha/cpuconf.c and we all remember his work at CMU as well. To be more factual than emotional about this point in general, I don't think the FreeBSD community feels a great deal of ownership for the *overwhelming majority* of FreeBDS code base given that we're not the authors of 4.4 BSD or the GPL toolchain used to build it, we're merely some of the latest custodians. Hell, anyone who's not on crack clearly feels that way given that it's a fundamental truth we've lived with since the project started. It's also the case that none of us would (or should) be putting code into the open source domain in the first place if we didn't WANT it to be used by any and all takers, and anyone in the NetBSD community who felt that code was "stolen" in some way for the FreeBSD/alpha port would be missing the entire idea behind this common exercise we're all engaged in. What sits in our mutual CVS repositories is not "our" code or "your" code by any meaningful definition since both FreeBSD and NetBSD represent hugely inter-dependent collections of code provided by everyone from the FSF to Hewlett-Packard. The alpha port, for example, would be little more than a comparatively useless academic exercise in running *BSD on the Alpha were it not for gcc and the work of hundreds of other individuals who've all provided vital pieces of the jigsaw puzzle which make up a usable operating system on any architecture. To claim ownership (to the degree that anything can be "taken" or "stolen") over an entire port of the BSD operating system is simply claiming too much from an engineering perspective and misses the concept of open source development besides. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 7:19:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD4337B42C; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 07:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6D0DA1C69; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:19:26 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: "Perry E. Metzger" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition Message-ID: <20000821101926.Y65562@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200008202212.IAA08232@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> <87d7j3lf4g.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <87d7j3lf4g.fsf@snark.piermont.com>; from perry@wasabisystems.com on Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 06:52:31PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 06:52:31PM -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > This is very true, though fortunately only half-true. The resources > > for doing a quality FreeBSD/sparc port are actually present in the > > community, they're just lying dormant, like gophers in the winter. :) > > You mean "The NetBSD code base is easy enough to copy and call our > own. Why don't we just do it. Surely they aren't going to complain -- > after all, it is all open source. It worked for Alpha, after all." You[NetBSD] put the BSD license on it, not us. > -- > Quality NetBSD Sales, Support & Service. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ Normally I'd suspect a BSDi-sellout-commercialism dig at FreeBSD when these kinds of comments are made, but I guess they can't be made by the NetBSD people anymore[1]... -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org 1. Unless you make them _before_ announcing your own commercial support. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 8:59:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF8137B424 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2241925E for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:59:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25962 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:59:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:59:19 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] Message-ID: <20000821105919.A25903@hamlet.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <199910142225.SAA06440@pcnet1.pcnet.com> <199910151809.UAA63994@yedi.iaf.nl> <19991016080722.E67481@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <19991016080722.E67481@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au>; from jb@cimlogic.com.au on Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:07:23AM +1000 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:07:23AM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > A weak symbol is like an alias for another (strong) symbol. The linker > will link to strong symbols first, then, for any unresolved references, > it will try to resolve against the weak symbols before going on to > the next library. Weak symbols are a good way to hide things in order > to stop polluting the name space. But they can cause problems too. > > Our use of weak symbols in libc is incomplete. Although syscalls like > read() have _read() as the strong symbol and read() as the weak one, > we continue to call read() in other areas of libc. This means that > a user can create their own read() function and they won't get a clash > when they link against libc, but other functions in libc that really > want to call the _read() syscall will call the user's read() function > instead. That's broken. We really need to change libc in the way that > NetBSD did with their namespace.h stuff. This ensures that the internals > of libc call the hidden names, not the weakly exported ones. Any compelling reason not do to this? I'm willing to do the (apparently grunt) work. I would use the same approach as NetBSD, basically: 1) namespace.h would use the preprocessor to rename our public symbols so that they begin with an underscore, e.g. #define warnx _warnx 2) add __weak_alias for each symbol in the files in which they are defined, e.g. __weak_alias(warnx, _warnx); in err.c I'd like to hear if anyone has better suggestions, though. Oh, yeah, Why do this? Well, John's description above is a good reason. But also I bumped my head on this with a statically compiled executable that wanted to define their own `warn', but pulled in a libc function that referenced the `warn' in our `err.c'. Cheers, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 9: 7:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA80737B422 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeppo.feral.com (IDENT:mjacob@zeppo [192.67.166.71]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03385; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:07:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] In-Reply-To: <20000821105919.A25903@hamlet.nectar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Oh, yeah, Why do this? Well, John's description above is a good > reason. But also I bumped my head on this with a statically compiled > executable that wanted to define their own `warn', but pulled in a > libc function that referenced the `warn' in our `err.c'. Yes, it's a very good thing to have. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 9:51: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EA437B42C for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id MAA25618; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:50:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:50:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] In-Reply-To: <20000821105919.A25903@hamlet.nectar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > On Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:07:23AM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > > A weak symbol is like an alias for another (strong) symbol. The linker > > will link to strong symbols first, then, for any unresolved references, > > it will try to resolve against the weak symbols before going on to > > the next library. Weak symbols are a good way to hide things in order > > to stop polluting the name space. But they can cause problems too. > > > > Our use of weak symbols in libc is incomplete. Although syscalls like > > read() have _read() as the strong symbol and read() as the weak one, > > we continue to call read() in other areas of libc. This means that > > a user can create their own read() function and they won't get a clash > > when they link against libc, but other functions in libc that really > > want to call the _read() syscall will call the user's read() function > > instead. That's broken. We really need to change libc in the way that > > NetBSD did with their namespace.h stuff. This ensures that the internals > > of libc call the hidden names, not the weakly exported ones. > > Any compelling reason not do to this? I'm willing to do the (apparently > grunt) work. I would use the same approach as NetBSD, basically: > > 1) namespace.h would use the preprocessor to rename our public symbols > so that they begin with an underscore, e.g. > > #define warnx _warnx > > 2) add __weak_alias for each symbol in the files in which they are > defined, e.g. > > __weak_alias(warnx, _warnx); > > in err.c > > I'd like to hear if anyone has better suggestions, though. I think this is a good idea, but should we also fix our internal calls of foo() to _foo()? You also have to think about the threads library, both current and future. We have to be able to build libc_r, and want in the future to be able to build libpthread that can be linked with libc. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 15:54: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F7A37B616 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B481925E; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:53:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26351; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:53:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:53:59 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] Message-ID: <20000821175359.C26324@hamlet.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Daniel Eischen , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000821105919.A25903@hamlet.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:50:24PM -0400 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:50:24PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > I think this is a good idea, but should we also fix our internal > calls of foo() to _foo()? Yes, if `foo' has external linkage. > You also have to think about the threads library, both current and > future. We have to be able to build libc_r, and want in the future to > be able to build libpthread that can be linked with libc. Can you go into more detail here? Is there something special to do for libc_r? Thanks! -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 16:19:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C9237B619 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA241906; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:18:59 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> References: <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:19:29 -0400 To: Darren Reed , jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) Cc: mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:03 PM +1000 8/20/00, Darren Reed wrote: > I think the problem (now) is that the different in-kernel >architectural changes by the BSD groups have created, essentially, >code that is hard to just "copy". The time it is taking for cardbus >to arrive in FreeBSD, when it is already available in NetBSD, is a >good example of this. (This is/was Warner Losh's baby, or am I >confused ?) I'm *really* disappointed that FreeBSD doesn't (yet?) >support cardbus in 4.x (-current?) :-( For what it's worth, I think Jonathan Chen@rpi just about has an improved version of some of the cardbus changes for freebsd ready. I forget whether that was originally based on netbsd's code, but I get the impression he's put a fair amount of work into it to get it working. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 17:47: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C850037B422 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id UAA01776; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:46:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] In-Reply-To: <20000821175359.C26324@hamlet.nectar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:50:24PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > I think this is a good idea, but should we also fix our internal > > calls of foo() to _foo()? > > Yes, if `foo' has external linkage. I agree, but this may cause some problems for a future libpthread. > > > You also have to think about the threads library, both current and > > future. We have to be able to build libc_r, and want in the future to > > be able to build libpthread that can be linked with libc. > > Can you go into more detail here? Is there something special to do for > libc_r? When building libc_r, _read() is a weak symbol for _thread_sys_read(), and _thread_sys_read() is the actual system call. The same is true for most other blocking calls that the threads library wants to wrap. There are also cases where you have to use strong references; I don't know exactly why, but see: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/lib/libc_r/uthread/uthread_pipe.c When we want to (someday) build libpthread, it will have to be linkable with libc. If we wanted the threads library to be able to catch internal calls to _read(), then _read() can't be the actual system call. This should not be a problem with a "scheduler activations"-based threads library (we shouldn't have to wrap potentially blocking syscalls). I'd like to make this assumption, but wouldn't rule out the possibility of having to override a few library/system calls from libpthread. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 18:23:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE93037B42C for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e7M1NlN13147; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:23:46 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Daniel Eischen Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] Message-ID: <20000821182346.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000821175359.C26324@hamlet.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 08:46:44PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Daniel Eischen [000821 17:47] wrote: > > When we want to (someday) build libpthread, it will have to be linkable > with libc. If we wanted the threads library to be able to catch internal > calls to _read(), then _read() can't be the actual system call. This > should not be a problem with a "scheduler activations"-based threads > library (we shouldn't have to wrap potentially blocking syscalls). I'd > like to make this assumption, but wouldn't rule out the possibility of > having to override a few library/system calls from libpthread. If libpthread could try to use a kqueue mechanism for sockets/pipes/fifo and only fall back to scheduler activations for disk IO we'd be in good shape. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 20:50:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5AF37B422 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA56614; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:50:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA00687; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:49:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200008220349.VAA00687@harmony.village.org> To: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:19:29 EDT." References: <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:49:57 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Garance A Drosihn writes: : For what it's worth, I think Jonathan Chen@rpi just about has an : improved version of some of the cardbus changes for freebsd ready. : I forget whether that was originally based on netbsd's code, but I : get the impression he's put a fair amount of work into it to get : it working. I've been looking at it the last few days. There's some stuff I don't like, but it looks like it won't be too hard to fix that and also integrate 16 bit cards that I've been doing. It isn't quite ready for prime time, but does seem to be an excellent start. And it does seem to be based on NetBSD's code. Just like NEWCARD. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 21: 8:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6A737B43F; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03308; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Charles M. Hannum" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:33:24 EDT." <200008220233.e7M2XOf02013@lop-nor.ihack.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:07:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3305.966917242@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It's possible that's true -- though frankly it isn't worth my time to > look. However, you *did*, e.g., stand next to me in Monterey and > utter such things as `that's why we [FreeBSD] did an Alpha port' ... And you have to take such remarks in context, Charles. When I say something like this, it's generally in explanation as to why a FreeBSD/alpha port even exists, regardless of who might have written what bits. It would be more accurate but far less wieldy for me to say "that's why we [FreeBSD] did an Alpha port, which by the way was largely done by various members of the NetBSD project in association with Carnegie-Mellon University and subsequently integrated by Andrew Gallatin, Doug Rabson, John Birrell and others." If I absolutely, positively wanted to avoid offending anyone (and I'd probably still leave somebody off and end up doing so anyway), I could be this painfully politically correct but it wouldn't make my speeches any shorter. > That's marginally true, but the fact is that many people expect -- > and, indeed, using a `Berkeley-style' license *require* -- a certain > level of recognition for their work. Which is what the copyright lines are for since nothing else adequately documents the long historical trail of who wrote what. Authors are expected to claim their due recognition through the process of putting "Copyright (c) Joe Hacker" somewhere in the comments at the top of of their source files and most in search of such recognition do so. Just doing a ``more /sys/alpha/alpha/*.c'' will show any newcomer to the BSD world just who authored some of the more key elements of FreeBSD/alpha. Speaking from historical experience, I don't think anyone in the *BSD community goes significantly out of their way to remember or acknowledge all the little details of who did what and that's simply because there are too frickin' many people and groups to remember and acknowledge, not out of spite. The ports collection is a fine example of this since I doubt that anyone over in NetBSD remembers just who came up with it back in August of 1994, at least I've never heard the origins of the "NetBSD packages collection" acknowledged in any NetBSD-related talks I've attended, but that doesn't get my undies in a bunch. Anyone genuinely interested in the origins of things like the ports collection can read the top of bsd.port.mk, see the copyright, and browse the CVS logs (at least in FreeBSD) for the history of its evolution. That's good enough for this author! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 21 21:28: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6160B37B423 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id AAA27185; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:27:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] In-Reply-To: <20000821182346.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Daniel Eischen [000821 17:47] wrote: > > > > When we want to (someday) build libpthread, it will have to be linkable > > with libc. If we wanted the threads library to be able to catch internal > > calls to _read(), then _read() can't be the actual system call. This > > should not be a problem with a "scheduler activations"-based threads > > library (we shouldn't have to wrap potentially blocking syscalls). I'd > > like to make this assumption, but wouldn't rule out the possibility of > > having to override a few library/system calls from libpthread. > > If libpthread could try to use a kqueue mechanism for sockets/pipes/fifo > and only fall back to scheduler activations for disk IO we'd be in > good shape. I don't think this is a good idea. A system call is a system call, whether its kqueue() or read(). It's much easier to let a read() pass through to the kernel and use SA, than to try and make the threads library understand the difference between a read on a socket and a read from a disk file. When the request(s) completes, it takes a kernel -> user level notification, regardless of whether it is kevent/kqueue or SA. I really think the user threads library should be as dumb as possible with regard to the types of I/O requests. Using SA, we avoid having to do the kind of call conversion that you'd have to do if you used kqueue. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 5:57:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from darren2.lnk.telstra.net (darren2.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.53.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CEF37B423; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 05:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darren2.lnk.telstra.net (8.9.1/8.8.7) id MAA08735; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:57:01 GMT From: Darren Reed Message-Id: <200008221256.WAA09990@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: <3305.966917242@localhost> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:07:22 -0700" To: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:56:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Whilst this has gone on long enough, I just want to make one comment here. The person to whom you're replying to in the email ago is allegedly being "blocked" from sending email to freebsd.org and whilst that's fine, it is hardly fitting to reply to such an email in such a way that only select parts of it are made public - sort of like replying to a private email on public lists. IMHO, either that email should be forwarded on or public references (including this one) to it should be deleted. That such filtering of email exists is disgusting in many ways but is not a topic I want to go into since no side is without blame. Darren In some mail from Jordan Hubbard, they said: > > It's possible that's true -- though frankly it isn't worth my time to > > look. However, you *did*, e.g., stand next to me in Monterey and > > utter such things as `that's why we [FreeBSD] did an Alpha port' > > ... And you have to take such remarks in context, Charles. When I say > something like this, it's generally in explanation as to why a > FreeBSD/alpha port even exists, regardless of who might have written > what bits. > > It would be more accurate but far less wieldy for me to say "that's > why we [FreeBSD] did an Alpha port, which by the way was largely done > by various members of the NetBSD project in association with > Carnegie-Mellon University and subsequently integrated by Andrew > Gallatin, Doug Rabson, John Birrell and others." If I absolutely, > positively wanted to avoid offending anyone (and I'd probably still > leave somebody off and end up doing so anyway), I could be this > painfully politically correct but it wouldn't make my speeches any > shorter. > > > That's marginally true, but the fact is that many people expect -- > > and, indeed, using a `Berkeley-style' license *require* -- a certain > > level of recognition for their work. > > Which is what the copyright lines are for since nothing else > adequately documents the long historical trail of who wrote what. > Authors are expected to claim their due recognition through the > process of putting "Copyright (c) Joe Hacker" somewhere in the > comments at the top of of their source files and most in search of > such recognition do so. Just doing a ``more /sys/alpha/alpha/*.c'' > will show any newcomer to the BSD world just who authored some of the > more key elements of FreeBSD/alpha. > > Speaking from historical experience, I don't think anyone in the *BSD > community goes significantly out of their way to remember or > acknowledge all the little details of who did what and that's simply > because there are too frickin' many people and groups to remember and > acknowledge, not out of spite. The ports collection is a fine example > of this since I doubt that anyone over in NetBSD remembers just who > came up with it back in August of 1994, at least I've never heard the > origins of the "NetBSD packages collection" acknowledged in any > NetBSD-related talks I've attended, but that doesn't get my undies in > a bunch. Anyone genuinely interested in the origins of things like > the ports collection can read the top of bsd.port.mk, see the > copyright, and browse the CVS logs (at least in FreeBSD) for the > history of its evolution. That's good enough for this author! > > - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 6:33:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403BE37B43F for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B7A1925E; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:33:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA38823; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:33:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:33:35 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] Message-ID: <20000822083335.C38787@hamlet.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Daniel Eischen , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000821175359.C26324@hamlet.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 08:46:44PM -0400 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 08:46:44PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > When we want to (someday) build libpthread, it will have to be linkable > with libc. So I'll admit that I'm not ready to tackle this problem, as I don't fully understand it. But perhaps we should burn that bridge when we get to it. If I understand correctly, than implementing weak aliases in libc today will not hinder a libpthread, i.e. the same issues will need to be dealt with whether libc remains as is or we add weak aliases. Correct me if I am being shortsighted or if I have this wrong. Thank for the help, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 8:16:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB15737B42C for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id LAA12508; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:16:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it time yet? [was Re: Weak symbols] In-Reply-To: <20000822083335.C38787@hamlet.nectar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 08:46:44PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > When we want to (someday) build libpthread, it will have to be linkable > > with libc. > > So I'll admit that I'm not ready to tackle this problem, as I don't > fully understand it. But perhaps we should burn that bridge when we get > to it. If I understand correctly, than implementing weak aliases in > libc today will not hinder a libpthread, i.e. the same issues will > need to be dealt with whether libc remains as is or we add weak aliases. > > Correct me if I am being shortsighted or if I have this wrong. I think this is basically correct. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 11: 2: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C8A37B422; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:02:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Darren Reed Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: <200008221256.WAA09990@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Darren Reed wrote: > > Whilst this has gone on long enough, I just want to make one comment here. > > The person to whom you're replying to in the email ago is allegedly being > "blocked" from sending email to freebsd.org and whilst that's fine, it is > hardly fitting to reply to such an email in such a way that only select > parts of it are made public - sort of like replying to a private email on > public lists. IMHO, either that email should be forwarded on or public > references (including this one) to it should be deleted. Uhm, Darren, where do you see any "blocking" of sending email to freebsd.org? If you mean mail.netbsd.org being blocked by postfix, it's not. If you mean "root@ihack.net" address, it's not, either. Of course, Majordomo isn't doing any blocking. > That such filtering of email exists is disgusting in many ways but is not > a topic I want to go into since no side is without blame. Are you going to be more specific about "filtering"? > Darren -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 11:19: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-115.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD32737B423; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20960; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200008221832.LAA20960@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Darren Reed , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Competition In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:02:00 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:32:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Whilst this has gone on long enough, I just want to make one comment here. > > > > The person to whom you're replying to in the email ago is allegedly being > > "blocked" from sending email to freebsd.org and whilst that's fine, it is > > hardly fitting to reply to such an email in such a way that only select > > parts of it are made public - sort of like replying to a private email on > > public lists. IMHO, either that email should be forwarded on or public > > references (including this one) to it should be deleted. > > Uhm, Darren, where do you see any "blocking" of sending email to > freebsd.org? If you mean mail.netbsd.org being blocked by postfix, > it's not. If you mean "root@ihack.net" address, it's not, either. Actually, "ihack.net" *is* being blocked. Because it's not set up correctly. Aug 22 00:21:34 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: connect from r94aag002979.sbo-smr.ma.c able.rcn.com[209.6.183.136] Aug 22 00:21:35 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: 5567A37B42C: client=r94aag002979.sbo-s mr.ma.cable.rcn.com[209.6.183.136] Aug 22 00:21:37 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: reject: RCPT from r94aag002979.sbo-smr .ma.cable.rcn.com[209.6.183.136]: 450 : Helo command rejected : Host not found; from= to= I think that someone needs to take an introductory DNS class, and perhaps a class in reading mail headers as well, since each and every one of these would have resulted in a verbose bounce giving the exact cause of the problem. > > That such filtering of email exists is disgusting in many ways but is not > > a topic I want to go into since no side is without blame. > > > > Darren Actually, what this filtering serves to achieve is to reduce the immense amount of spam that you would otherwise receive as a subscriber to the FreeBSD lists. It's an irritating side-effect that people with misconfigured mail setups can't communicate with freebsd.org accounts (this hurts me quite a bit, actually), but I'll trade it for not having to wade through a 20-30% spam quotient in my inbox every morning. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 11:46:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6585737B424; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA78194; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200008221846.LAA78194@winston.osd.bsdi.com> To: Darren Reed Cc: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: Message from Darren Reed of "Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:56:24 +1000." <200008221256.WAA09990@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:46:31 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Whilst this has gone on long enough, I just want to make one comment here. Which is time you might have more profitably spent in checking your facts before flying off the handle. Nobody has been explicitly blocked by FreeBSD.org for political reasons, Darren, and you can put your X-Files scenarios back in the box. The volume of spam coming into FreeBSD.org is simply too huge for us not to adopt some basic counter-measures against it, two of those being a subscription to MAPS and the rejection of mail from any site without valid DNS entries. The latter is necessary due to the number of spammers which fit the profile of trying to hide behind the relative anonymity of a rented or outright stolen IP address. It appears that someone simply doesn't know how to configure DNS properly and freebsd.org is hardly the only site which will reject mail from them on that basis; it's a very common spam-prevention technique. Please save your moral indignation and finger shaking for those occasions where they're actually merited. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 12:32:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from web4.allunix.com (cc598076-a.chmchl1.ca.home.com [24.11.229.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4F937B424; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windoze (dhcp4.allunix.com [192.168.0.6]) by web4.allunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03872; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:43:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@allunix.com) Message-ID: <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com> In-Reply-To: <200008221846.LAA78194@winston.osd.bsdi.com> References: <200008221846.LAA78194@winston.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.10.03.02 (3) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:32:29 -0700 From: "David DeTinne" To: "Jordan Hubbard" Cc: reebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: was Competition now mail-lists Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It appears that someone simply doesn't >know how to configure DNS properly and freebsd.org is hardly the only >site which will reject mail from them on that basis; it's a very >common spam-prevention technique. Some of us have no choice, I am using comcast@home cable service and my email to the lists bounce back to me on a regular basis. David DeTinne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 12:43:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC4837B422 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01645; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:43:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200008221943.PAA01645@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Re: was Competition now mail-lists In-Reply-To: <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com> from David DeTinne at "Aug 22, 2000 12:32:29 pm" To: david@allunix.com (David DeTinne) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please, folks, Yes, doing this hoses people. Yes, not doing this hoses people. It's an ugly choice for the FreeBSD postmasters; they have no right solution, but can merely choose the manner in which they want to be abused. "Death by drowning or death by burning? Gee, let me think..." In this case, it's more correct to force users to find a reliable email provider than to have tons of spam flowing down *@freebsd.org. There is no good answer at the freebsd.org level; junk email is a pervasive, Internet-wide problem. This comes up every few months; can we please cut this argument off at the knees before it turns into yet another endless blather that results in nothing changing? I'm sure if anyone has a working, practical solution for this problem, the IETF and any number of email software maintainers would love to hear from you. ==ml > > It appears that someone simply doesn't > >know how to configure DNS properly and freebsd.org is hardly the > only > >site which will reject mail from them on that basis; it's a very > >common spam-prevention technique. > > Some of us have no choice, I am using comcast@home cable service and > my email to the lists bounce back to me on a regular basis. > > David DeTinne > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 12:45:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A00F37B423; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 063EE1C6B; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:45:24 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: David DeTinne Cc: Jordan Hubbard , reebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was Competition now mail-lists Message-ID: <20000822154523.L57333@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200008221846.LAA78194@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com>; from david@allunix.com on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 12:32:29PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 12:32:29PM -0700, David DeTinne wrote: > > It appears that someone simply doesn't > >know how to configure DNS properly and freebsd.org is hardly the > only > >site which will reject mail from them on that basis; it's a very > >common spam-prevention technique. > > Some of us have no choice, I am using comcast@home cable service and > my email to the lists bounce back to me on a regular basis. That's why @home gives you a SMTP server you can use. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 13:43:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from lists01.iafrica.com (lists01.iafrica.com [196.7.0.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645F737B423; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za ([196.7.18.138] ident=root) by lists01.iafrica.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #2) id 13RKtH-000353-00; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:43:23 +0200 Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7MKi9e07463; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:44:09 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200008222044.e7MKi9e07463@grimreaper.grondar.za> To: "David DeTinne" Cc: "Jordan Hubbard" , reebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was Competition now mail-lists References: <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com> In-Reply-To: <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com> ; from "David DeTinne" "Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:32:29 MST." Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:44:09 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It appears that someone simply doesn't > >know how to configure DNS properly and freebsd.org is hardly the > only > >site which will reject mail from them on that basis; it's a very > >common spam-prevention technique. > > Some of us have no choice, I am using comcast@home cable service and > my email to the lists bounce back to me on a regular basis. That is a fairly poor excuse; if your provider is unable to provide proper service; move. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 15:58:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from darren2.lnk.telstra.net (darren2.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.53.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC8B37B43C; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darren2.lnk.telstra.net (8.9.1/8.8.7) id WAA10264; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:58:00 GMT From: Darren Reed Message-Id: <200008222257.IAA10574@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: <200008221832.LAA20960@mass.osd.bsdi.com> from Mike Smith at "Aug 22, 0 11:32:03 am" To: msmith@FreeBSD.org (Mike Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:57:41 +1000 (EST) Cc: green@FreeBSD.org, darrenr@reed.wattle.id.au, jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com, root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some email I received from Mike Smith, sie wrote: > Actually, "ihack.net" *is* being blocked. Because it's not set up > correctly. > > Aug 22 00:21:34 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: connect from r94aag002979.sbo-smr.ma.c > able.rcn.com[209.6.183.136] > Aug 22 00:21:35 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: 5567A37B42C: client=r94aag002979.sbo-s > mr.ma.cable.rcn.com[209.6.183.136] > Aug 22 00:21:37 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: reject: RCPT from r94aag002979.sbo-smr > ..ma.cable.rcn.com[209.6.183.136]: 450 : Helo command rejected > : Host not found; from= to= [...] My apologies to the people behind running the freebsd.org boxes. I had not even entertained the thought that such might be the real problem. Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 22 16:29:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-5-249.zoominternet.net [24.154.5.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9928437B43E; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02023; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:30:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:30:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris BeHanna Reply-To: behanna@zbzoom.net To: David DeTinne Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was Competition now mail-lists In-Reply-To: <200008221232290300.011C52D9@web4.allunix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (Warning: off-topic, yet informative, reply follows.) On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, David DeTinne wrote: > > It appears that someone simply doesn't > >know how to configure DNS properly and freebsd.org is hardly the > only > >site which will reject mail from them on that basis; it's a very > >common spam-prevention technique. > > Some of us have no choice, I am using comcast@home cable service and > my email to the lists bounce back to me on a regular basis. Unless Comcast is *massively* braindead, they should have some effed-up DNS entry for the dynamic address they assign to you (e.g., "comcast-24-154-2-196.home.com" or somesuch), and *that* address would, by default, be the address used in the helo dialogue. *That* guy will resolve, and if you point your MUA to comcast@home's designated SMTP box for outgoing mail, you're good to go. If you use your local sendmail, and/or use an MUA that doesn't provide for using an external SMTP server (e.g., mailx or sendmail -t), and have a hostname more to your liking, then that's where you're going to run into trouble, because "davidshost.home.com" isn't going to resolve. A solution, I've found, is to register with a dynamic DNS service, then set your fully-resolved hostname to that, and update it whenever you get DHCP'd to a new IP address. You can do this with ddup in your dhclient exit hook script, for example, or you can check and update by hand. For example, I set up .dyndns.org for my box with the kind folks at dyndns.org, and I use my fully-resolved hostname in my helo dialogue. Because I keep that DNS entry up-to-date, freebsd.org can resolve .dyndns.org, and then I'm good to go. On the few occasions when it burps, I do a sendmail -q and try again, and it usually gets through. If I wished, I could also enter an MX there, but instead I just set my From:, Sender:, and Reply-To: fields to point back to my mailbox at my ISP. There are even some dynamic DNS services that will, for a fee, handle a subdomain or even a domain for you. Usually, they give you a dynamic host for free. (Yes, I'm also a cable-modem user who gets a dynamic IP address.) If you have to (and I don't think you do--my experiments were mixed), you can edit sendmail.cf and crowbar the localhost to use the canonical hostname of your choice. It would of course be better to get a static IP address and then update the DNS entries for my domain to point to it, but my cable modem provider was braindead in setting the pricing structure for that, and if I don't pay them their monthly "hosting" fee, plus an exhorbitant surcharge, they leave ports 1-1024 blocked, and I *still* can't get my mail delivered without outside help (re: either a mail drop somewhere or someone who will forward my mail traffic to me on a high port). This stuff is of course way off-topic for this list. If you have problems, feel free to contact me off-list and I'll do what I can to help you. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer (at yourfit.com) behanna@zbzoom.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 23 7:51:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15FD37B424; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19974; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:51:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:51:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Mike Smith Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , Darren Reed , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: <200008221832.LAA20960@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Mike Smith wrote: > Actually, "ihack.net" *is* being blocked. Because it's not set up > correctly. > > Aug 22 00:21:34 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: connect from r94aag002979.sbo-smr.ma.c > able.rcn.com[209.6.183.136] > Aug 22 00:21:35 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: 5567A37B42C: client=r94aag002979.sbo-s > mr.ma.cable.rcn.com[209.6.183.136] > Aug 22 00:21:37 hub postfix/smtpd[42146]: reject: RCPT from r94aag002979.sbo-smr > .ma.cable.rcn.com[209.6.183.136]: 450 : Helo command rejected > : Host not found; from= to= Actually, the check of the "helo" field is something I'd like removed: it makes life very difficult for hosts behind NATs without proper SMTP proxies (such as default installs of our natd, which does not include an SMTP proxy :-). It's not possible to send-pr from internal machines behind my NAT without having world-visible DNS names for all my internal machines. RFC 821 doesn't specify criteria under which HELO should be rejected, although it does allow for that possibility with the following errors: HELO S: 250 E: 500, 501, 504, 421 It's useful also to note that 450 is not among them :-). While part of RFC 821 refers to it as a "domain name", the text also refers to it as the "host name" of the sender. I have a rather dim view of NATs based on this kind of problem, but unfortunately NATs are a reality, and there are many hosts mail-delivering behind NATs. :-) I'm fine with the other legitimacy tests--sender email address must resolve, sender host must have a valid reverse/forward lookup pair, etc, but the HELO check causes me a lot of trouble, and no doubt others. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 23 8: 5:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from sentinel.office1.bg (sentinel.office1.bg [195.24.48.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C45AB37B43C for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 66117 invoked by uid 1001); 23 Aug 2000 15:00:39 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:00:39 +0300 From: Peter Pentchev To: Robert Watson Cc: Mike Smith , Brian Fundakowski Feldman , Darren Reed , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Competition Message-ID: <20000823180039.G63286@ringwraith.office1.bg> References: <200008221832.LAA20960@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@freebsd.org on Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:51:03AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:51:03AM -0400, Robert Watson wrote: [snip Robert Watson quoting Mike Smith] > > Actually, the check of the "helo" field is something I'd like removed: it > makes life very difficult for hosts behind NATs without proper SMTP > proxies (such as default installs of our natd, which does not include an > SMTP proxy :-). It's not possible to send-pr from internal machines > behind my NAT without having world-visible DNS names for all my internal > machines. So configure your MTA to send the NAT proxy address in the HELO; this might make other MTA's on your LAN unhappy, but the world outside sees a kosher HELO with the exact hostname of the host it's coming from. I don't know how to do this with Sendmail or Postfix; with qmail, all it took was a one-line /var/qmail/control/helohost containing the desired hostname to send. G'luck, Peter -- The rest of this sentence is written in Thailand, on To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 23 16:45:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A0A37B5AF; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19935; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:44:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39A4637A.4186981B@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:51:22 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Darren Reed , mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) References: <98351.966803341@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > I also think the Alpha port was an important step for the project in > that it got us 64 bit clean well before the IA64 arrived and it > validated the concept that we could do something non-x86 based on an > ongoing basis. For the network appliance market, a important and > growing segment of what some of FreeBSD's core "PC interest group" is > morphing into, we need to get onto architectures like MIPS, PowerPC > and StrongARM and doing any sorts of non-x86 ports are good practice > for this. Yes, yes, yes. The order of importance varies widely, but the above three would pretty much cover the bases. Anyone interested in doing this kind of work full-time should contact me. Or BSDi, probably. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 23 17:52:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B6337B422 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20032; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:50:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39A47299.703213C0@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:55:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: mjacob@feral.com, Warner Losh , Darren Reed , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) References: <88242.966757125@critter> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message , Matthew > Jacob writes: > > > >As someone who spends a fair amount of time doing just this, I have to say > >that the *BSD's have deviated significantly in many respects. So much so that > >very conscious major design choices have to be made to facilitate any kind of > >code sharing. > > I think attempting to keep the *BSD's compatible at the source code > level would severely limit out ability to respond to where the > market is headed. There is a certain amount of code darwinism occuring here. This is generally a good thing (tm). xBSD tries one way, yBSD another, zBSD waits to see which one ends up working best and adopting that. Eventually, if the x solution is seen to be vastly superior to the y solution, yBSD adopts it as well. > As long as the *BSD's are separate projects, coordination can only > happen in the case where it's the same developer in all of the > projects. Anything else is just futile dreaming... Darren's ipf is a great example of this. While I appreciate how much more work it is for him to maintain it on different systems, each of these systems do bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table. I'm certain porting across systems probably makes ipf better in the long run, too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 23 18:56: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.chuckr.org (picnic.chuckr.org [216.254.96.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A0637B424; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.chuckr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA98224; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:55:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.chuckr.org) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:55:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Darren Reed Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , root@ihack.net, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Competition In-Reply-To: <200008221256.WAA09990@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Darren Reed wrote: > > Whilst this has gone on long enough, I just want to make one comment here. > > The person to whom you're replying to in the email ago is allegedly being > "blocked" from sending email to freebsd.org and whilst that's fine, it is > hardly fitting to reply to such an email in such a way that only select > parts of it are made public - sort of like replying to a private email on > public lists. IMHO, either that email should be forwarded on or public > references (including this one) to it should be deleted. > > That such filtering of email exists is disgusting in many ways but is not > a topic I want to go into since no side is without blame. > > Darren Darren, if you're saying that you're unhappy that some folks who really want to disrupt the list with endless non-productivce haranguing are blocked, that's too bad. I think everyone should get the right to be heard, but heard ONCE. If they aren't agreed with, that's too damned bad, and if you can't accept that your ideas aren't the most popular, then you should learn to accept being blocked. This is a community communications channel, and can be very effectively blocked by a few loud screamers. I have personally been on the losing side of some battles; I hope I showed that I know how to give up in a timely manner. If you can't learn to give up, then you SHOULD be disallowed usage of this important venue. No channel that is run without at least some manner of self control will survive. State your opinions, then step back, it's someone else's turn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.chuckr.org| electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 24 3:28:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAED437B424; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 03:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA16479; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 03:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Wes Peters Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Darren Reed , mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) In-Reply-To: Message from Wes Peters of "Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:51:22 MDT." <39A4637A.4186981B@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 03:28:01 -0700 Message-ID: <16475.967112881@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yes, yes, yes. The order of importance varies widely, but the above > three would pretty much cover the bases. Anyone interested in doing OK, and in what order would you personally rank them? [jkh puts Wes on the spot with a question he's still trying to answer for himself]. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 24 3:48:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A77537B423; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 03:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by relay.butya.kz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4CC732880F; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:39:39 +0700 (ALMST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.butya.kz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4069C2880D; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:39:39 +0700 (ALMST) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:39:39 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org, Konstantin Chuguev Subject: Proposal to include iconv library in the base system. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [This message cc'ed to -i18n which has had zero activity in the last month.] Proposal to include iconv library and iconv(1) program in the base system. This library of functions and its companion iconv program provide converts between various single-byte and multibyte charsets. These iconv* functions are essential in the mixed networks and on local machines with multiple charsets. FreeBSD already contains a few character conversion schemes for msdosfs, nwfs, cd9660fs and syscon mapping tables. However, the usage of these tables is not standardized and only providing support for a small number of character sets. Many external packages like KDE and GNOME also rely on the iconv functions. Konstantin Chuguev wrote the original code in BSDL and I modified it slightly. OpenGroup has a description of iconv functions online: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/7908799/xsh/iconv.html A brief overview of character sets is available at: http://www.austin.ibm.com/doc_link/en_US/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/codeset_over.htm Short Introduction on Library Design and Implementation: The library consists of a core part, the Character Encoding Scheme (CES) modules and the Character Conversion Scheme (CCS) modules. Core part contains exposed user functions and the internal framework for modules. To provide the maximum number of supported character set combinations, this library uses unicode as the intermediate charset. CES and CCS modules contains conversion logic and conversion tables to map characters between unicode and the target charset. The entire character conversion process looks like this: charset1 -> unicode -> charset2 In addition, it is possible to perform conversion only to/from unicode. Modules are implemented as shared libraries and loaded via the dlopen() function. Modules reside in the /usr/lib/iconv/ directory and can be dynamically added to system. To make iconv subsystem more flexible, it has a "converter" layer which allows the addition of more various converters. Given two arbitrarily chosen charsets charset1 and charset2, the converter allows programs to "open," then to perform conversion, and to close the process while release resources. For now library have only so called Unicode Converter (UC). For example, it is possible to write a XLAT converter which will support direct, table based conversion between known characters sets. Of course, a new converter can use its own modules. Since support for multiple characters sets is also required in the kernel, there is a kernel part which provides nearly the same set of function in the kernel space. Conversion tables uploaded to kernel memory via sysctl interface from corresponding userland modules (no code, only data). The questionable part is a which set of character sets should be included in the base system and which should be supplied as packages. Obviously, conversion tables occupy 99% of the space: Part Name Size of source code --------- ------------------- Libray 83K Base character sets 218K (ISO-8859*, cp8??, windows-125?) CJK 5548K (big5, cns*, gb*, jis*, cp9??) RFC1345 character sets 1064K Unicode character sets 711K ------------------------------------------- Secondly, where should the functions be placed? Initially, the iconv library was a separate file (libiconv*). However, it seems that Solaris has the library in libc and Linux in glibc. I do not know how HPUX does this. And the third question is where I should place the source code for character conversion schemes in the source tree. Of course, to respect maintaners of embedded systems and those who have to deal with only one charset, option 'NO_ICONV' will be prvoided. I would appreciate any feedback on this topic. P.S. sources of libiconv in its current state available at http://www.butya.kz/~bp/inode/ -------------------------------------------- Michael C. Wu (keichii@iteration.net) reviewed my proposal before it has been posted and made some comments: 1) Does this allow for small patchsets to the character tables? i.e. UNICODE does not completely map to BIG-5. Some implementations map the differences directly to blank space, while others map to equivalent characters. Depending on the user's choice, one should be able the specify a small change to the charset table without disruption. I think it is possible and author probably already know the way :) 2) We should include all EUC and ISO charsets, even if they are sometimes totally unused to conform to standards. 3) I suggest having the character tables in /usr/libdata. /usr/share should have a directory that contains the mappings also. For the kernel, perhaps we should have a src/sys/i18n and put iconv into src/sys/i18n/iconv. As to the libc code, to avoid ports compiling and patching trouble, we should follow what linux does in libc. 4) I do not think the charset tables will be bigger than 15mb total. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 24 13:15:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC5D37B423; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05591; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:14:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAROaGWk; Thu Aug 24 13:13:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13863; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:14:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008242014.NAA13863@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) To: darrenr@reed.wattle.id.au (Darren Reed) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:14:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200008200842.SAA07457@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> from "Darren Reed" at Aug 20, 2000 06:42:42 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If people are saying the x86 part of FreeBSD is weakening (some > say since the adoption of alpha) I don't think it is a good idea > to start (or promote) work on a sparc port. I would, in fact, like hard statistics and documentation of the measuring syystem(s) used to achieve this conclusion. Without this, the statement that the x86 port is being "hurt" by other platforms is nothing more than unsupported FUD. > Personally, I think it is more important for FreeBSD to concentrate > on getting IA-64 (and AMD 64bit) support happening than for sparc64 > and that sparc64 is a waste of time/effort for FreeBSD. Concentrate > on what FreeBSD is good at doing and don't get distracted. FreeBSD is code, not a human being. It does not "concentrate". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 24 15:26: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E551237B43C; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AEF6F64C2E; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:26:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:26:01 -0500 From: "Michael C. Wu" To: Boris Popov Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org, Konstantin Chuguev Subject: Re: Proposal to include iconv library in the base system. Message-ID: <20000824172601.A1353@peorth.iteration.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C. Wu" , Boris Popov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org, Konstantin Chuguev References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from bp@butya.kz on Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:39:39PM +0700 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1-STABLE FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:39:39PM +0700, Boris Popov scribbled: | [This message cc'ed to -i18n which has had zero activity in the last month.] Must....add traffic | | 4) I do not think the charset tables will be bigger than 15mb total. ---end quoted text--- How about having two sets of conversion tables? One set would be the plain text files and the other would be in Berkeley DB format to allow for faster system look-up's. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 25 5:36:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.dante.org.uk (alpha.dante.org.uk [193.63.211.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A35C37B424; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from theta.dante.org.uk ([193.63.211.7]) by alpha.dante.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #4) id 13SIi4-0006VZ-00; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:35:48 +0100 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dante.org.uk) by theta.dante.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #4) id 13SIhu-0004wk-00; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:35:38 +0100 Message-ID: <39A6681A.E9337835@dante.org.uk> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:35:38 +0100 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: Delivery of Advanced Networking Service to Europe Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C. Wu" Cc: Boris Popov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal to include iconv library in the base system. References: <20000824172601.A1353@peorth.iteration.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Michael C. Wu" wrote: > On Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:39:39PM +0700, Boris Popov scribbled: > | > | 4) I do not think the charset tables will be bigger than 15mb total. > ---end quoted text--- > How about having two sets of conversion tables? > > One set would be the plain text files and the other would be > in Berkeley DB format to allow for faster system look-up's. > The current charset table format is produced as follows: There are two sources for table files: plain text tables from the Unicode WWW/FTP site, and RFC1345. All this stuff is located in the developer's internal directory. C source files for every charset are created from the table files by a Perl script. This is done before creating the source code distribution package. It is OK to provide the Perl script in the distribution, but I see no reason to use it every time when compiling the sources. The produced C files contain conversion tables for both conversions from Unicode and to Unicode; each conversion table can be either array of 128 or 256 unsigned shorts, or the array of pointers to arrays of 128/256 ushorts. Each file also contains internal functions and a few structures for "virtual methods". C files are smaller than corresponding Unicode files, but bigger than corresponding RFC1345 entries. .so dynamic loadable modules are made at compile time from the C files. They are much smaller than the C files. I believe that the resulting .so files are smaller than corresponding DB tables would be, and even smaller than CDB "constant database" files. The lookup is also faster, but what is more important, it is not necessarily based on any tables. As I said before, the conversion to/from Unicode is done by calling a (virtual) method in a .so module. This will allow us, for example, to create easily a new conversion table module for mapping between CJK standard charsets and a new Unicode version containing all ideographs from the Kangxi Dictionary and some other CJK characters (http://www.unicode.org/unicode/alloc/Pipeline.html). As the new characters occupy Plane 2 of ISO-10646, we will need another format for the table. But this will not affect the library and other modules. -- * * Konstantin Chuguev - Application Engineer * * Francis House, 112 Hills Road * Cambridge CB2 1PQ, United Kingdom D A N T E WWW: http://www.dante.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message