From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 4: 1:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647B737BDE6 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA65839; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:01:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Terry Lambert Cc: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <200003110021.RAA15362@usr08.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Mar 2000 13:01:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:21:56 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > To get a taste of this, you should consider the situation that > occurred when Matt Dillon sold Best Internet off, and was able > o spend 8 hours a day hacking new code, and how a volunteer > core was not able to keep up with reviewing it at the rate he > was able to produce it. They throttled it back by removing, > and then conditionalizing, his commit priviledges, something > that wouldn't really work with several core members backing a > commit. You know that's crap, Terry. Don't go there. You'll only start off a new flamewar. > Finally, there's some concern about proprietary drivers not > being available for the free version, and displacing freely > available drivers in the free version, leaving no free > alternatives. Judging from what currently publicly known, the only "proprietary drivers" not "available for the free version" will be those written under NDA, i.e. those drivers for which there is no free equivalent in the first place. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 5:45:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123F337BB9A for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 05:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1697D1D132; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:44:59 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CB9F5A.8B1C364F@originative.co.uk> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:44:58 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > .... > The conflict of interest argument may be correct in principle, > but in practice there shouldn't be a problem if the employee in > question is a genuine FreeBSD core team member: it's in WC's > interest to act like "nice guys". (Isn't that the usual argument > about the BSD licence and commercial interests?) Likewise, in the > linux community there are kernel developers like Alan Cox who > work for Red Hat, and others who work for SuSE etc, and they all > develop together without worrying about conflict of interest. > Anyone who is allowed the word FreeBSD should be under some kind > of check, to make sure that it matches with the "official" > FreeBSD. Anyone can take the codebase and do something entirely > different with it, of course, if they're willing to use another > name for it. The difference between the Linux community and the FreeBSD community is that there is only one serious commercial player at the moment. In the Linux world, no one company can dictate direction because the key developers are scattered across many of them and so there is no majority control by any one player. In FreeBSD's case, WC has a hefty influence on the project for many reasons, not least the fact that they employ some of the most prominent project members. > The sort of question to be answered is not, should the FreeBSD > docs cite Cheapbytes as a supplier, but -- if some other company > like Red Hat came along and wanted to package FreeBSD in linux > style -- GUI install, packages, etc, etc -- performing real > "value addition" in commercial words -- should they be allowed to > call it FreeBSD, and what should the conditions be for that. And > yes, it should not be left to Walnut Creek, but to some committee > whose credentials are beyond doubt. But it may be unreasonable to > ask that no employees of Walnut Creek be involved in the process > at all. > > Incidentally, I think someone seriously suggested Linux International > on this list, as a suitable body to police the trademark. I think the foundation and the core team are perfectly reasonably solutions to this problem. The question instead should be, how do we think the core team should be selected so that we're confident that it *is* an impartial body. A self-selected body that is strongly influenced by a single company with a vested interest in the project is not really impartial. I personally feel that there are barriers in place that prevent other commercial players entering the FreeBSD market. For example, in the discussion over the use of the FreeBSD trademark, Jordan said that a distribution with a different installer would not be allowed to use the mark since it would increase the workload of support staff. It was innovations such as the installer that allowed Linux companies to compete in the market place and ultimately, it was the proliferation of Linux companies that brought it in to the mainstream of the industry. Surely, allowing other distributions to use different installers would provide an opportunity for value-add that would allow other companies to enter the market. I don't think the argument about support is a fair one. WC can get on with supporting their distribution, in the main people who buy other distributions will go elsewhere for their support. There will probably be some increase in the mailing lists regarding the different installer but we're all free to discuss more or less what we want in the lists anyway and if some FreeBSD members don't want to support alternate installers then that's up to them. Ultimately, I would hope that the installer from company X would get folded back in to the main distribution if it was a better one, if it wasn't then chances are no-one would buy that distribution. At the moment we are all encouraged to buy all FreeBSD products from WC. If company X produces a better installer, why shouldn't we put some money into their coffers by buying their installation in order to fund the development of a better installer? Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 8:52: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40B137B9F8 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id RAA04741 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:52:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 598DC8864; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:23:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:23:17 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Message-ID: <20000312162317.B16623@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200003092154.OAA18296@usr01.primenet.com> <38C850AC.4C0D1DF7@asme.org> <38C85D34.9BB2B97F@interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38C85D34.9BB2B97F@interlog.com>; from paulg@interlog.com on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 09:25:56PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Paul Griffith: > How about an IPO? :-) Will all committers get stock-options ? /me hides and runs -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 11:45:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAE837B8AC for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 11:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25406; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:44:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:44:14 -0700 To: Paul Richards , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38CB9F5A.8B1C364F@originative.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:44 AM 3/12/2000 , Paul Richards wrote: >The difference between the Linux community and the FreeBSD community is >that there is only one serious commercial player at the moment. In the >Linux world, no one company can dictate direction because the key >developers are scattered across many of them and so there is no majority >control by any one player. > >In FreeBSD's case, WC has a hefty influence on the project for many >reasons, not least the fact that they employ some of the most prominent >project members. Very true. WC runs the machines on which the builds are done, and employs a large percentage of the key developers. It is far and away the largest distributor of FreeBSD discs, just began to run the yearly FreeBSD convention, publishes the only book on FreeBSD (though others will follow), and does other things which give it overwhelming influence. >I think the foundation and the core team are perfectly reasonably >solutions to this problem. The question instead should be, how do we >think the core team should be selected so that we're confident that it >*is* an impartial body. A self-selected body that is strongly influenced >by a single company with a vested interest in the project is not really >impartial. Agree. The core team and the board of directors of the non-profit should NOT be the same to avoid problems with conflicts of interest and to provide a broader perspective. While the core team members are technically superb, echnical competence is not necessarily a measure of one's independence or that one is the optimal person to deal with the broader issues which the board will face. Some core team members, in fact, are likely not to WANT the responsibility of dealing with non-technical issues. They're there because they want to code, not necessarily because they want to administer. Finally, the circle of people who contribute to, build upon, and use FreeBSD is much larger than the core team. >I personally feel that there are barriers in place that prevent other >commercial players entering the FreeBSD market. For example, in the >discussion over the use of the FreeBSD trademark, Jordan said that a >distribution with a different installer would not be allowed to use the >mark since it would increase the workload of support staff. Indeed. And this is a very serious barrier, since installers are one of the key selling points for different distributions of operating systems. Jordan has also said that he would insist that ALL of FreeBSD come on any disk that bore the trademark. This is, IMHO, a bad decision. It raises costs for would-be competitors by forcing them to use extra discs for their value-added components. It prevents the generation of platform- specific discs, which could include more value for one platform and omit items which the buyer will never use. It also puts creators of FreeBSD distributions at a disadvantage relative to Linux distributors, who don't face this constraint. >It was innovations such as the installer that allowed Linux companies to >compete in the market place and ultimately, it was the proliferation of >Linux companies that brought it in to the mainstream of the industry. >Surely, allowing other distributions to use different installers would >provide an opportunity for value-add that would allow other companies to >enter the market. > >I don't think the argument about support is a fair one. WC can get on >with supporting their distribution, in the main people who buy other >distributions will go elsewhere for their support. There will probably >be some increase in the mailing lists regarding the different installer >but we're all free to discuss more or less what we want in the lists >anyway and if some FreeBSD members don't want to support alternate >installers then that's up to them. > >Ultimately, I would hope that the installer from company X would get >folded back in to the main distribution if it was a better one, if it >wasn't then chances are no-one would buy that distribution. > >At the moment we are all encouraged to buy all FreeBSD products from WC. >If company X produces a better installer, why shouldn't we put some >money into their coffers by buying their installation in order to fund >the development of a better installer? I agreee 100%. This is a decision which, if handled by an impartial board that wanted to see FreeBSD proliferate, might go the other way. This is why I think that it is important for the board NOT to be the core team but rather to be representative of the whole community -- including users wand vendors other than Walnut Creek/BSDi. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 12: 7:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from listsvr1.telepac.pt (mail6.telepac.pt [194.65.3.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D303837BAE2 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:07:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpedras@webvolution.net) Received: from manecao.tafkap.priv ([194.65.198.23]) by listsvr1.telepac.pt (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 evaluation license) with ESMTP id pt for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:10:32 +0000 Content-Length: 860 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:07:00 -0000 (GMT) Reply-To: Joao Pedras From: Joao Pedras To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: yet another cvsup server Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all I setup a cvsup server on a machine that is always 'in the air' and besides that it has an excelent connection to a common interchange connecting the several isp's in my country. Since here there is no (at least official) cvsup server , I would like to know how could I submit this so the machine could have some alias like cvsup.country.freebsd.org and provide a real use to the freebsd community here. Tkx Joao ^\ /^ O O ----------------------------------------o00-(_)-00o-------------------------- In case of injury notify your superior immediately. He'll kiss it and make it better. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PGP key available upon request or may be cut at http://pedras.webvolution.net/pgpkey.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 13:35:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A721A37BD64 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA72963; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:35:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38CC0DA9.F91EF779@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:35:37 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0307 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [much snipping] Brett Glass wrote: > > At 06:44 AM 3/12/2000 , Paul Richards wrote: > >In FreeBSD's case, WC has a hefty influence on the project for many > >reasons, not least the fact that they employ some of the most prominent > >project members. > > Very true. WC runs the machines on which the builds are done, and employs > a large percentage of the key developers. It is far and away the largest > distributor of FreeBSD discs, just began to run the yearly FreeBSD > convention, publishes the only book on FreeBSD (though others will follow), > and does other things which give it overwhelming influence. > >At the moment we are all encouraged to buy all FreeBSD products from WC. > >If company X produces a better installer, why shouldn't we put some > >money into their coffers by buying their installation in order to fund > >the development of a better installer? > > I agreee 100%. This is a decision which, if handled by an impartial board > that wanted to see FreeBSD proliferate, might go the other way. This is > why I think that it is important for the board NOT to be the core team > but rather to be representative of the whole community -- including > users wand vendors other than Walnut Creek/BSDi. You guys are comparing apples and oranges and calling it mincemeat. There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone at all from taking every bit of the FreeBSD code, slapping a new installer on it, and selling it to their heart's content, as long as they don't try to call it FreeBSD. That's true now, and it will continue to be true after the merger. In fact, if I understand things correctly (and I make no claim to know more than any other man on the street about the details of the deal) that is for all intents and purposes exactly what BSDI is going to do (although they will probably license use of the freebsd name to go along with their product). Now, where you run into difficulty is when you want to take the FreeBSD code, add bits to it and CALL IT FREEBSD. Now you're running into trademark issues. The owner of a trademark has a legal responsibility to protect its property. If the trademark owner lets every Tom, Dick and Harry use their trademark on other products their legal (civil) protections for that trademark get watered down. Therefore, I (as a proud freebsd contributor) WANT the core team/foundation/whoever to jealously guard the freebsd name. Frankly, I am ambivalent about whether or not anyone else should be allowed to make what amounts to a "linux-like distribution" of FreeBSD. On one hand I can see where something like that might be useful, but the potential problems it can create outweigh the risks in my mind. At least, they do now, in the absence of any concrete plans to evaluate. To put my point in more plain language, Brett, stop whining. The freebsd trademark owners are doing exactly what they ought to be doing in regards to (not) giving you permission to use the freebsd name for your imaginary product. Trying to make them out as bad guys is disingenuous. This is business, and names have value. You know that or you wouldn't be trying so hard to use ours. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 13:56:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9856337B511 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26251; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:56:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:56:02 -0700 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38CC0DA9.F91EF779@gorean.org> References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:35 PM 3/12/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > You guys are comparing apples and oranges and calling it mincemeat. >There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone at all from taking every >bit of the FreeBSD code, slapping a new installer on it, and selling it >to their heart's content, as long as they don't try to call it FreeBSD. >That's true now, and it will continue to be true after the merger. Yes, but requiring them not to call it FreeBSD would be a very, very bad thing. First of all, Linux advocates (who aren't forced to do this) would take advantage of the new name to call it a "fork," even if there were no fork in development of the base OS, and point to it as a sign that the BSDs were fragmenting. This would be horrible PR. Second, it would throw a great barrier to entry in front of the creator(s) of the new distribution: a requirement to establish name recognition ex nihilo. Walnut Creek has not faced similar barriers when creating its "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other packages which bundle FreeBSD with other products. The policy would thus be discriminatory, IMHO. Finally, it would create an impediment not faced by would-be distributors of Linux. One of the selling points of the BSDs are that they are more free than Linux. This would turn that around. > Now, where you run into difficulty is when you want to take the FreeBSD >code, add bits to it and CALL IT FREEBSD. Now you're running into >trademark issues. The owner of a trademark has a legal responsibility to >protect its property. If the trademark owner lets every Tom, Dick and >Harry use their trademark on other products their legal (civil) >protections for that trademark get watered down. Not so. This has not happened with Linux, and in fact the variety of distributions of Linux which are CALLED Linux has helped to create a critical mass for it. Had Caldera, Red Hat, etc. all had to call their distributions something other than Linux, the Linux phenomenon would not have happened. > Therefore, I (as a proud freebsd contributor) WANT the core >team/foundation/whoever to jealously guard the freebsd name. Frankly, I >am ambivalent about whether or not anyone else should be allowed to make >what amounts to a "linux-like distribution" of FreeBSD. If this were the case, Walnut Creek should not be allowed to do it either. It would have to be required to take the "FreeBSD Power Pak," for example, off the market or rename it. After all, this is exactly what the product does: "add bits to it and call it FreeBSD." Fair is fair. But I would not advocate this. Rather, I would encourage broad use of the mark. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 14:16:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF0E37BD95 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B13F1D132; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:16:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CC1751.FDB96428@originative.co.uk> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:16:49 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <38CC0DA9.F91EF779@gorean.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton wrote: > > [much snipping] > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At 06:44 AM 3/12/2000 , Paul Richards wrote: > > > >In FreeBSD's case, WC has a hefty influence on the project for many > > >reasons, not least the fact that they employ some of the most prominent > > >project members. > > > > Very true. WC runs the machines on which the builds are done, and employs > > a large percentage of the key developers. It is far and away the largest > > distributor of FreeBSD discs, just began to run the yearly FreeBSD > > convention, publishes the only book on FreeBSD (though others will follow), > > and does other things which give it overwhelming influence. > > > >At the moment we are all encouraged to buy all FreeBSD products from WC. > > >If company X produces a better installer, why shouldn't we put some > > >money into their coffers by buying their installation in order to fund > > >the development of a better installer? > > > > I agreee 100%. This is a decision which, if handled by an impartial board > > that wanted to see FreeBSD proliferate, might go the other way. This is > > why I think that it is important for the board NOT to be the core team > > but rather to be representative of the whole community -- including > > users wand vendors other than Walnut Creek/BSDi. > > You guys are comparing apples and oranges and calling it mincemeat. > There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone at all from taking every > bit of the FreeBSD code, slapping a new installer on it, and selling it > to their heart's content, as long as they don't try to call it FreeBSD. > That's true now, and it will continue to be true after the merger. In > fact, if I understand things correctly (and I make no claim to know more > than any other man on the street about the details of the deal) that is > for all intents and purposes exactly what BSDI is going to do (although > they will probably license use of the freebsd name to go along with > their product). I think you're missing the point that was being made. Yes, the above is correct, there's nothing to stop there being umpteen different operating systems all of them competing with each other. All of them are FreeBSD but only one of them can officially claim to be so, even though the differences between them are less significant than the differences between any two Linux distributions. Would you rather some company take FreeBSD, add value to it and sell it branded as a FreeBSD distribution, or take FreeBSD add value to it and then sell it as something totally different that takes market share away from FreeBSD? If you force companies to spend money branding their own products they are far less likely to pay anything back to the FreeBSD community because FreeBSD would then be one of their competitors rather than a stable mate. This is why the trademark issue is an important one. In order to grow the FreeBSD community, and in this case I mean commercially rather than in terms of users although the latter follows on from the former, you need to provide some room for other companies to make money from the project. If you don't allow them to call their product FreeBSD then instead of growing the community you fragment it. > Now, where you run into difficulty is when you want to take the FreeBSD > code, add bits to it and CALL IT FREEBSD. Now you're running into > trademark issues. The owner of a trademark has a legal responsibility to > protect its property. If the trademark owner lets every Tom, Dick and > Harry use their trademark on other products their legal (civil) > protections for that trademark get watered down. I'm perfectly happy with that, protecting the trademark is a good thing. The issue that's potentially stifling growth is in defining what FreeBSD is and when something ceases to be FreeBSD. Those are decisions that should be made by the foundation but the foundation must ensure that the decision is made in the best interests of the project and not to protect the interests of any one of its sponsors. It's interesting to draw the analogy with Linux and UNIX. Almost everything that's derived from Linux is called Linux, which creates a large installed base of Linux systems even though they all differ in the details. Conversely, the number of UNIX systems is in decline because commercial vendors are adopting different names for their operating systems. I wonder if this isn't partly due to the fact that it is hard to get an operating system qualified as UNIX because of the strict conformance required. I think it would be a pity for FreeBSD to become another UNIX, rather than another Linux. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 14:33:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEFE37B844 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:33:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA73889; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:33:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38CC1B24.6FBE4E7D@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:33:08 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0312a i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:35 PM 3/12/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > > You guys are comparing apples and oranges and calling it mincemeat. > >There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone at all from taking every > >bit of the FreeBSD code, slapping a new installer on it, and selling it > >to their heart's content, as long as they don't try to call it FreeBSD. > >That's true now, and it will continue to be true after the merger. > > Yes, but requiring them not to call it FreeBSD would be a very, very > bad thing. Only from your perspective. I can certainly understand why you would argue this position, but I haven't seen any convincing arguments that you're right yet. > First of all, Linux advocates (who aren't forced to do this) > would take advantage of the new name to call it a "fork," even if there > were no fork in development of the base OS, and point to it as a sign > that the BSDs were fragmenting. This would be horrible PR. But we're not after the rabid adolescent boy market, so this really isn't a factor. > Second, it would throw a great barrier to entry in front of the > creator(s) of the new distribution: a requirement to establish name > recognition ex nihilo. Yes, absolutely. Once again, for you that's a bad thing. I'm not convinced yet that it's a bad thing in general. > Walnut Creek has not faced similar barriers when > creating its "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other packages which bundle FreeBSD > with other products. The policy would thus be discriminatory, IMHO. But discrimination is not always a bad thing. I WANT the freebsd trademark owners to be very "discriminating" in who they let use the name. > Finally, it would create an impediment not faced by would-be distributors > of Linux. One of the selling points of the BSDs are that they are more > free than Linux. This would turn that around. Once again, this is a red herring argument. Nothing prevents you from taking the _bits_ and using them to your heart's content. That is how freebsd IS more free than linux. What we're discussing is the name. > > Now, where you run into difficulty is when you want to take the FreeBSD > >code, add bits to it and CALL IT FREEBSD. Now you're running into > >trademark issues. The owner of a trademark has a legal responsibility to > >protect its property. If the trademark owner lets every Tom, Dick and > >Harry use their trademark on other products their legal (civil) > >protections for that trademark get watered down. > > Not so. This has not happened with Linux, and in fact the variety of > distributions of Linux which are CALLED Linux has helped to create a critical > mass for it. Had Caldera, Red Hat, etc. all had to call their distributions > something other than Linux, the Linux phenomenon would not have happened. But there is no direct comparison between "linux" and "freebsd". "Linux" is JUST the kernel, period. I guarantee you that if you tried to take the red hat linux distribution and put some stuff of your own in it and marketed it as "red hat linux plus" you would have your ass in a sling so fast you wouldn't know what hit you. Comparing a given linux distribution to the freebsd "distribution" is a much more intellectually honest comparison. Also, I don't pretend to know what kind of gymnastics you have to go through with Linus to put the word "Linux" on your box, but I don't imagine that just anyone can do it. Linus made some smart moves in that area because he WAS coming from nowhere and wanted to get his name out there any way possible. Our starting position is light years ahead of that, and we should act accordingly. > > Therefore, I (as a proud freebsd contributor) WANT the core > >team/foundation/whoever to jealously guard the freebsd name. Frankly, I > >am ambivalent about whether or not anyone else should be allowed to make > >what amounts to a "linux-like distribution" of FreeBSD. > > If this were the case, Walnut Creek should not be allowed to do it either. Unless of course the trademark owners believe that WC's efforts will enhance the value of the brand. > It > would have to be required to take the "FreeBSD Power Pak," for example, off > the market or rename it. After all, this is exactly what the product does: > "add bits to it and call it FreeBSD." > > Fair is fair. But this isn't a first grade schoolyard. This is business. Sometimes business isn't "fair." > But I would not advocate this. Rather, I would encourage broad use of the mark. Of course you would, you have a financial interest in doing so. -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 14:41: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABB037BDAF for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA73910; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:40:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38CC1CF8.29DE9BD4@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:40:56 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0312a i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <38CC0DA9.F91EF779@gorean.org> <38CC1751.FDB96428@originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snipping again] Paul Richards wrote: > I think you're missing the point that was being made. I think I understand your point quite well. I just don't necessarily agree with it. > If you force companies to spend money branding their own products they > are far less likely to pay anything back to the FreeBSD community > because FreeBSD would then be one of their competitors rather than a > stable mate. This is as close as either of you has come to a convincing argument. However, I think Brett gave a really good example of when it would be wise for the freebsd trademark owners to license use of the name. Something like the freebsd power pack that WC put out would be a good reason to let them use the name, since it adds value to the brand. I'm not advocating _never_ letting anyone use it, I'm just saying that I don't want use of the name to be rubber stamped. Of course, I also sympathize fully with your point about letting people make money by adding value to the project. I'm as big of a capitalist as anyone, and I don't want to put _unreasonable_ impediments in front of anyone. However, the most important issue (in my mind) is protection of the brand. Not all ideas that will make money for the person with the idea are good. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 15: 1:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DBE37BE56 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:01:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26660; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:01:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000312154517.04127580@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:01:07 -0700 To: Paul Richards , Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38CC1751.FDB96428@originative.co.uk> References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <38CC0DA9.F91EF779@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:16 PM 3/12/2000 , Paul Richards wrote: >If you force companies to spend money branding their own products they >are far less likely to pay anything back to the FreeBSD community >because FreeBSD would then be one of their competitors rather than a >stable mate. This is a VERY good point. If they were forced to use different names, compilers of alternate distributions would have to say, "Don't use FreeBSD; Noodnix is better!" ;-) >This is why the trademark issue is an important one. In order to grow >the FreeBSD community, and in this case I mean commercially rather than >in terms of users although the latter follows on from the former, you >need to provide some room for other companies to make money from the >project. If you don't allow them to call their product FreeBSD then >instead of growing the community you fragment it. Agreed. >I'm perfectly happy with that, protecting the trademark is a good thing. >The issue that's potentially stifling growth is in defining what FreeBSD >is and when something ceases to be FreeBSD. Those are decisions that >should be made by the foundation but the foundation must ensure that the >decision is made in the best interests of the project and not to protect >the interests of any one of its sponsors. Exactly. The rules must apply to all, and fairly. They must also be forward-looking and allow for new methods of distribution. For example, a disc which didn't have all of FreeBSD on it, but was specifically designed to allow users to start with that disc and download less commonly used items, would be a great idea. But it would be ruled out by a requirement that the disc always contain all of FreeBSD. >It's interesting to draw the analogy with Linux and UNIX. Almost >everything that's derived from Linux is called Linux, which creates a >large installed base of Linux systems even though they all differ in the >details. Exactly. What's more, there are Linux-related companies such as LinuxCare and VA Linux. Walnut Creek is the ONLY company which has been allowed to start an enterprise -- FreeBSDMall.com -- which uses the FreeBSD name. Others should be allowed to do so as well. >Conversely, the number of UNIX systems is in decline because >commercial vendors are adopting different names for their operating >systems. I wonder if this isn't partly due to the fact that it is hard >to get an operating system qualified as UNIX because of the strict >conformance required. I think it would be a pity for FreeBSD to become >another UNIX, rather than another Linux. Another excellent point. How many UNIX variants can you name that are called UNIX? We've had HP/UX, A/UX, AIX (for which I'd always thought they should do a windowing system called "Panes" so you could have "AIX and Panes"), Ultrix, Xenix (now long obsolete), Solaris.... Ugh. The worst thing that the FreeBSD Foundation could do is become "proprietary" about the name, or force companies to jump through absurd hoops as UNIX International does. This would be contrary to the philosophy expressed by Jordan Hubbard in the FreeBSD Handbook: "The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be used for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a significant investment in the code (and project) and would certainly not mind a little financial compensation now and then, but we are definitely not prepared to insist on it. We believe that our first and foremost ``mission'' is to provide code to any and all comers, and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible use and provides the widest possible benefit. This is, I believe, one of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and one that we enthusiastically support." The FreeBSD Project should be generous and evenhanded with its trademark, just as it is with its code and documentation -- and just as Linus Torvalds is with the Linux trademark. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 15:30:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60ECF37BD15 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26873; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:30:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:30:28 -0700 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38CC1B24.6FBE4E7D@gorean.org> References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:33 PM 3/12/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > Yes, but requiring them not to call it FreeBSD would be a very, very > > bad thing. > > Only from your perspective. I can certainly understand why you would >argue this position, but I haven't seen any convincing arguments that >you're right yet. See Paul's message; he makes some persuasive arguments. > > First of all, Linux advocates (who aren't forced to do this) > > would take advantage of the new name to call it a "fork," even if there > > were no fork in development of the base OS, and point to it as a sign > > that the BSDs were fragmenting. This would be horrible PR. > > But we're not after the rabid adolescent boy market, so this really >isn't a factor. It is a very important factor. Articles in the mainstream press and the IT trade press take these things -- or, in fact, any asertions made by the "opinion leaders" of the Linux world, seriously. The assertions in the "Hallowe'en memo" circulated by Eric Raymond have been accepted unquestioningly by many. > > Second, it would throw a great barrier to entry in front of the > > creator(s) of the new distribution: a requirement to establish name > > recognition ex nihilo. > > Yes, absolutely. Once again, for you that's a bad thing. I'm not >convinced yet that it's a bad thing in general. Favoritism toward one vendor in a supposedly "open" project is not a good thing. Nor is a monoculture such as the one we have now. > > Walnut Creek has not faced similar barriers when > > creating its "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other packages which bundle FreeBSD > > with other products. The policy would thus be discriminatory, IMHO. > > But discrimination is not always a bad thing. I WANT the freebsd >trademark owners to be very "discriminating" in who they let use the >name. I say that exactly the opposite should be the case. The success of Linux has shown that the failure of one Linux product -- though nearly every one has Linux in the name -- does not harm the others. The market, by noting problems with bad products and not buying them, ultimately eliminates inferior products which use the name on its own! This is a better, simpler, and COMPLETELY AUTOMATIC mechanism that avoids debates, political wrangling, potential unfairness, or in fact any effort at all on the part of the board. They can concentrate on more important and productive pursuits. > > Finally, it would create an impediment not faced by would-be distributors > > of Linux. One of the selling points of the BSDs are that they are more > > free than Linux. This would turn that around. > > Once again, this is a red herring argument. Nothing prevents you from >taking the _bits_ and using them to your heart's content. That is how >freebsd IS more free than linux. What we're discussing is the name. Trademarks are just another flavor of intellectual property. Just as the project allows its code and documentation to be used widely, it should do the same with its trademarks. > But there is no direct comparison between "linux" and "freebsd". >"Linux" is JUST the kernel, period. The trademark is often applied to much more than just the kernel. "Red Hat Linux," for example, is a trademark that applies to much more than just the kernel. The same is true of FreeBSD. Walnut Creek has several products with "FreeBSD" in the name which include things that the FreeBSD Core Team had no hand in producing -- including Sendmail, BIND, Apache, etc. >I guarantee you that if you tried to >take the red hat linux distribution and put some stuff of your own in it >and marketed it as "red hat linux plus" you would have your ass in a >sling so fast you wouldn't know what hit you. This would be due to the use of the words "Red Hat" rather than the use of the word "Linux." In fact, Red Hat -- in response to a scandal involving CDs sold on eBay -- has agreed that anyone can sell their Linux as-is and call it Linux; they just can't call it "Red Hat." > Also, I don't pretend to know what kind of gymnastics you have to go >through with Linus to put the word "Linux" on your box, but I don't >imagine that just anyone can do it. Linus made some smart moves in that >area because he WAS coming from nowhere and wanted to get his name out >there any way possible. Actually, Linus is very liberal with the trademark -- far, far more liberal than you propose that the FreeBSD Foundation be. And it works. The only time I've *ever* seen Linus deny to anyone the use of the mark is in a case where the use was derogatory. >Our starting position is light years ahead of >that, and we should act accordingly. Exactly the opposite is true. FreeBSD is starting as a "dark horse." To prevent MANY people from using the name is to hurt its chances to rise to prominence. > > If this were the case, Walnut Creek should not be allowed to do it either. > > Unless of course the trademark owners believe that WC's efforts will >enhance the value of the brand. And therefore are willing to "play favorites?" Sorry, no deal. This is the antithesis of the philosophy of open source and of the BSDs in general. If WC is allowed to do it, anyone else who wants to do something similar should be allowed to attempt the same thing. Even if they might fail. To do anything different is to lock WC into its position of dominance. > But this isn't a first grade schoolyard. This is business. Sometimes >business isn't "fair." Walnut Creek is a business, as would be most of the competitive distributors. But the FreeBSD Foundation, as a non-profit, will have an obligation to be evenhanded. If not, it will not be a legitimate non-profit and will be denied its tax exemption due to problems with what is called "personal inurement." > > But I would not advocate this. Rather, I would encourage broad use of the mark. > > Of course you would, you have a financial interest in doing so. So would ANYONE who might want to get into the business of reselling FreeBSD or FreeBSD-related products. So will FreeBSD users, who would gain more options and will likely see more available application software. Opportunities for developers and contract programmers will likewise become more widespread if the name becomes better known. In short, EVERY FREEBSD USER AND DEVELOPER has an interest in seeing the mark used broadly, just as the Linux trademark is today. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 12 22:56:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f190.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.190]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B599037B541 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 28279 invoked by uid 0); 13 Mar 2000 06:56:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20000313065644.28278.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.220.228.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:56:44 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.220.228.2] From: "John Daniels" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and ... Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:56:44 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi: To throw some light on this ongoing converstation, prehaps it is worthwhile to go to the source: Linus Torvalds recently described his view of the Linux trademark: http://linuxtoday.com/stories/15302.html I am not 100% sure, but I believe that Linus' remarks were prompted, at least in part, by a firm called (I believe) "LinuxOne" which many in the Linux communitiy believed was trying to unjustly benefit from the Linux mania by doing an IPO without Linux or Open Source credentials (a months-old company with no Linux veterans, and a copied and/or hurried-to-market distro, etc.). My 2cents: It is in both WC/BSDI's and FreeBSD developers and users interest that 1) the aims and integrity of FreeBSD are respected, and 2) FreeBSD grows in usage. It seems natural that over time, this will lead to a greater separation between FreeBSD and WC/BSDI and additional commercial distributors/ventures. This may evolve in a way similar to linux but will probably also have some unique characteristics. Mostly, the current discussion demonstrates the need for WC/BSDI to provide as much information about their plans as soon as possible. John ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 1:20:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5148837B5EA for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:20:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98186123D0; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:19:17 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:12:55 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:30 PM -0700 2000/3/12, Brett Glass wrote: > This would be due to the use of the words "Red Hat" rather than the > use of the word "Linux." In fact, Red Hat -- in response to a scandal > involving CDs sold on eBay -- has agreed that anyone can sell their > Linux as-is and call it Linux; they just can't call it "Red Hat." And you would wish that the FreeBSD team do something different?!? You can take the code as-is and do whatever the hell you want with it, you just can't call it "FreeBSD". Sounds pretty much the same to me. > Exactly the opposite is true. FreeBSD is starting as a "dark horse." To > prevent MANY people from using the name is to hurt its chances to rise to > prominence. Take a look at this situation again. The name of the merged company is "BSD, Inc." There is a particular flavour of a freely available version of BSD Unix called "FreeBSD". However, these are two separate and distinct issues. Anybody who wants to take the name "BSD" and apply it in a positive way to a product or a service will almost certainly be warmly welcomed into the family -- Just as Linus has done with the term "Linux". The only difference is that there is another part of the BSD community that will jealously guard the name "FreeBSD", and they have every right to do so (and in fact, have every fiduciary obligation to do so), just as Red Hat does with the name "Red Hat", Debian does with the name "Debian", etc.... > In short, EVERY FREEBSD USER AND DEVELOPER has an > interest in seeing the mark used broadly, just as the Linux > trademark is today. You're equating "Linux" with "FreeBSD". This is a fallacy. You should instead equate "Linux" with "BSD". They are both families of closely related OSes, but with various different versions that have been created. Just as there are various different versions (or "distributions") of "Linux", there are various different versions of "BSD". Of these various different versions of "BSD", there is one known as "FreeBSD", and I would expect the FreeBSD core team and the FreeBSD Foundation to protect that name every bit as jealously as Red Hat does with theirs, Caldera does with theirs, Corel does with theirs, etc.... -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 9:44:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1C337B63B for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:44:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03764; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:44:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:43:46 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:12 AM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: >At 4:30 PM -0700 2000/3/12, Brett Glass wrote: > >> This would be due to the use of the words "Red Hat" rather than the >> use of the word "Linux." In fact, Red Hat -- in response to a scandal >> involving CDs sold on eBay -- has agreed that anyone can sell their >> Linux as-is and call it Linux; they just can't call it "Red Hat." > > And you would wish that the FreeBSD team do something different?!? No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. Anyone should be able to call their product FreeBSD; they just could not call it "Walnut Creek FreeBSD," for instance, without the permission of Walnut Creek. >> Exactly the opposite is true. FreeBSD is starting as a "dark horse." To >> prevent MANY people from using the name is to hurt its chances to rise to >> prominence. > > Take a look at this situation again. The name of the merged company is "BSD, Inc." There is a particular flavour of a freely available version of BSD Unix called "FreeBSD". However, these are two separate and distinct issues. > > Anybody who wants to take the name "BSD" and apply it in a positive way to a product or a service will almost certainly be warmly welcomed into the family -- Just as Linus has done with the term "Linux". Not so. People will say, "Yet another BSD! This is proof that the BSD world is fragmenting." If new products are not clearly labeled as distributions of the work of one of the existing projects, they will be perceived as fragmentation. > You're equating "Linux" with "FreeBSD". This is a fallacy. No, it's an analogy. > You should instead equate "Linux" with "BSD". They are both families of closely related OSes, but with various different versions that have been created. Not so. There's a big difference. The OSes labeled "BSD" do not share a common kernel. The ones labeled "Linux" do. The ones labeled "FreeBSD" would. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10: 3: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F5D37BB85 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:02:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17044; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:02:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. Anyone > should be able to call their product FreeBSD; they just could not call > it "Walnut Creek FreeBSD," for instance, without the permission of > Walnut Creek. Yes, but its -not- FreeBSD unless its the release rolled by the project. If you're gonna take the official release and write your own installer and setup the system with all sorts of eye candy and drool proof toys then I could maybe see calling it "Foobaz2000 (based on FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE), or "(Contains FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE!)" somewhere small. It looks like you're trying to take something that the FreeBSD project has worked hard for (good PR) and profit by it, while offering nothing in return and quite possibly damaging user/market trust in the brand. Am I pretty close? > If new products are not clearly labeled as distributions of the work of one of > the existing projects, they will be perceived as fragmentation. Well, here's your big chance to create a FreeBSD based distribution. Whats stopping you? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10: 3:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C45A37BB85 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1320.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.233.40]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BF5CCEE; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:02:59 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:02:35 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:43 AM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > Not so. There's a big difference. The OSes labeled "BSD" do not >share a common > kernel. The ones labeled "Linux" do. The ones labeled "FreeBSD" would. But FreeBSD is not just a kernel (like Linux is). It's a kernel plus all the userland stuff and a whole lot more. Therefore, you can't have another "distribution" of FreeBSD, unless it includes all the exact same stuff that FreeBSD does. If you want to take FreeBSD and make your own modifications, you're welcome to do so and call it "WhateverYouWantBSD", but you can't call it FreeBSD -- because the FreeBSD core team and the FreeBSD Foundation would have no control over your product, you can't use their copyrighted name. It's that simple. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:19:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9D137B55E for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04195; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:18:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:18:51 -0700 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:02 AM 3/13/2000 , Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >Yes, but its -not- FreeBSD unless its the release rolled by the >project. If you're gonna take the official release and write your own >installer and setup the system with all sorts of eye candy and drool proof >toys then I could maybe see calling it "Foobaz2000 (based on FreeBSD >4.5-RELEASE), or "(Contains FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE!)" somewhere small. In that case, Walnut Creek's "FreeBSD Power Pak," which IS FreeBSD plus all sorts of goodies, should be required to be renamed for the sake of fairness. In fact, even the Walnut Creek 4-CD FreeBSD set should be required to be named differently, because it contains hundreds of third party products. Sound fair? >It looks like you're trying to take something that the FreeBSD project has >worked hard for (good PR) and profit by it, while offering nothing in >return Part of the BSD philosophy is that anyone should be able to take the project's IP and use it for any purpose. Also, as I've mentioned, experience in the Linux world has shown that a bad product bearing the name Linux has not hurt Linux one bit. The market quickly eliminates bad products, solving the problem with no outside intervention. And there's no danger of bias on the part of some "sanctioning committee." >nd quite possibly damaging user/market trust in the brand. In that case, isn't Walnut Creek doing exactly that by selling its "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other products which > > If new products are not clearly labeled as distributions of the work of one of > > the existing projects, they will be perceived as fragmentation. > >Well, here's your big chance to create a FreeBSD based >distribution. Whats stopping you? I don't want to hurt FreeBSD. If I ship a product which doesn't have the FreeBSD name on it, it will hurt FreeBSD and in fact all of the BSDs by giving the Linux zealots the opportunity to claim that the BSDs are fragmenting rather than consolidating. There's also a fundamental issue of fairness which needs to be resolved here. If Walnut Creek is allowed to ship products and packages which bear the name FreeBSD and which include enhancements and additions to the FreeBSD project's output (including whole CD-ROMs of third party software!), I (or anyone else) should be able to do so as well. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD9137B5F5 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:26:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04258; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:26:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:26:15 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:02 AM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > But FreeBSD is not just a kernel (like Linux is). It's a kernel plus all the userland stuff and a whole lot more. Therefore, you can't have another "distribution" of FreeBSD, unless it includes all the exact same stuff that FreeBSD does. Non sequitur. Red Hat, and other Linux distributors, do their own builds of the Linux kernel with unique features and drivers. For example, Red Hat ships with Winmodem support while other distributions do not, and their product is still called Linux! There's no reason why this should not be true for FreeBSD. Since FreeBSD includes a "userland," creators of distributions should be able to provide enhancements there too. Anyone who omitted something or broke existing software would, of course, be subjected to the wrath of users, so the market would quickly take care of any omissions. > If you want to take FreeBSD and make your own modifications, you're welcome to do so and call it "WhateverYouWantBSD", but you can't call it FreeBSD In that case, Walnut Creek should not be able to do that either. So, again, the FreeBSD Foundation should require it to change the names of all of its "enhanced" FreeBSD packages. Otherwise, it is not being evenhanded. >-- because the FreeBSD core team and the FreeBSD Foundation would have no control over your product, you can't use their copyrighted name. Do you understand intellectual property law? It's a trademark, not a "copyrighted name." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:35:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C7637BDE1 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17581; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:35:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:35:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > In that case, Walnut Creek's "FreeBSD Power Pak," which IS FreeBSD > plus all sorts of goodies, should be required to be renamed for the > sake of fairness. In fact, even the Walnut Creek 4-CD FreeBSD set > should be required to be named differently, because it contains > hundreds of third party products. Sound fair? Is it shipping with an official FreeBSD Project RELEASE? If you wanted to do something similar like "FreeBSD for Dummies" I can't see how they'd (The FreeBSD Project) have a problem. Doesn't CheapBytes sell a product that uses 'FreeBSD' in the name? I guess that kind of shoots you down. You'd think you'd recognize an example for what it was and not take it as an invitation to find something from WC that doesn't exactly match the pattern. > >It looks like you're trying to take something that the FreeBSD project has > >worked hard for (good PR) and profit by it, while offering nothing in > >return > > Part of the BSD philosophy is that anyone should be able to take the > project's IP and use it for any purpose. Fine, the PR and Brand are totally different from 'IP'. I note that Microsoft took some BSD IP and used it for any purpose. More power to 'em. > Also, as I've mentioned, experience in the Linux world has shown that > a bad product bearing the name Linux has not hurt Linux one bit. The > market quickly eliminates bad products, solving the problem with no > outside intervention. And there's no danger of bias on the part of > some "sanctioning committee." Whine whine whine. So I nailed you down and you gave a half hearted counter and then switched the subject. This is a typical Brett Glass thread. > >nd quite possibly damaging user/market trust in the brand. > > In that case, isn't Walnut Creek doing exactly that by selling its > "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other products which Nope. If the FreeBSD Project didn't prevent the product from using the brand so I assume that it meet their standards of quality. (Or maybe there -is- some under the table funny business!! Oh no!) > I don't want to hurt FreeBSD. If I ship a product which doesn't have > the FreeBSD name on it, it will hurt FreeBSD and in fact all of the > BSDs by giving the Linux zealots the opportunity to claim that the > BSDs are fragmenting rather than consolidating. Yes, but until we see your vapor we can't judge if it will have a positive or negative impact on FreeBSD. Again, if you are value adding an official FreeBSD RELEASE I can't see how anyone would have a problem with it (unless of course it was something in poor taste like shipping with goat porn or using satanic rituals in concert with the install or something silly.) You've thundered on about this and still haven't told us exactly what you want to do. You're getting something for nothing here and it still isn't good enough for you. > There's also a fundamental issue of fairness which needs to be > resolved here. If Walnut Creek is allowed to ship products and > packages which bear the name FreeBSD and which include enhancements > and additions to the FreeBSD project's output (including whole CD-ROMs > of third party software!), I (or anyone else) should be able to do so > as well. So long as you are shipping an official FreeBSD RELEASE (and even then WC ships snapshots). I think the problem is that people are worried that you will misrepresent FreeBSD in some way. It seem easier to believe that given your track record on the various mailing lists, deserved or no. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:35:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3996637B643 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04401; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:35:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:35:32 -0700 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Correction of typo Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In my earlier response to Matthew Dodd, I wrote: >nd quite possibly damaging user/market trust in the brand. In that case, isn't Walnut Creek doing exactly that by selling its "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other products which This was the result of sending the message before I'd finished writing that one section. It should have read: >and quite possibly damaging user/market trust in the brand. In that case, isn't Walnut Creek doing exactly that by selling its "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other products which contain third-party products? Many of the pieces of software included in this package (and even in Walnut Creek's 4-CD set!) are not developed by the FreeBSD Project and thus are not subject to its quality control standards. Over time, programs with serious bugs and security holes, including Version 2.4 of QPopper and easily compromised versions of BIND, have shipped on the Walnut Creek discs. None of this has damaged user/market trust in the brand! However, if one is concerned about this, the best solution would be to draw a hard line between what the project produced and what it did not, as follows: 1. Ensure that only the output of the project is called "FreeBSD." 2. Require anyone who publishes a CD-ROM containing any code or documentation not generated by the project itself to use a name which indicates this. For example, "Walnut Creek FreeBSD" (which would be analogous to "Red Hat Linux"). 3. Any product which did not use the name "FreeBSD" in a derogatory or misleading way could use the name as PART of a product name so long as it was qualified. (Again, "Red Hat Linux" and "Debian GNU/Linux" come to mind as examples.) Any other approach would blur the line between what the FreeBSD Project generated and other things which were not its output. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:43: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043B237C000 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:42:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17661; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:42:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:42:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > In that case, isn't Walnut Creek doing exactly that by selling its > "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other products which contain third-party > products? Many of the pieces of software included in this package > (and even in Walnut Creek's 4-CD set!) are not developed by the > FreeBSD Project and thus are not subject to its quality control > standards. Wasn't the 4 CD set the install CD, the CVS tree, GNATS, ports, precompiled packages and distfiles? How is that -not- a product of the FreeBSD Project? > Over time, programs with serious bugs and security holes, including > Version 2.4 of QPopper and easily compromised versions of BIND, have > shipped on the Walnut Creek discs. Sure, and I suppose you think that WC is responsible for the holes in BIND and Sendmail that shipped with 1.1.5.1. "Damnit! They're hurting FreeBSD!" I think you're just gonna have to be a reasonable human like the rest of us if you want to profit from someone elses hard work. I know my interests in FreeBSD lead me to support the current situation with respect to the "FreeBSD" trademark/brand. I'd bet that a majority of the committers/core feel the same way and don't want it to be any easier for you to subvert the FreeBSD brand for your unknown purposes. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:49:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CED737B50F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:49:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1320.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.233.40]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C89125D3; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:48:44 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:46:16 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:18 AM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > Part of the BSD philosophy is that anyone should be able to take >the project's > IP and use it for any purpose. Code, yes. IP, no. If they allowed you to take any of their IP and use it for whatever you want, then it would be in the "public domain", and there would be no such thing as a BSD license. I think you've just demonstrated your fundamental lack of grasp on the issue. > I don't want to hurt FreeBSD. If I ship a product which doesn't have the > FreeBSD name on it, it will hurt FreeBSD and in fact all of the BSDs > by giving the Linux zealots the opportunity to claim that the BSDs are > fragmenting rather than consolidating. I don't think there's anything you need to worry about here. The members of the FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation won't lose any sleep at night because you are not allowed to call your product "Brett's x86-only no-EIDE/ATA laptop-specific customized FreeBSD", or whatever the heck it is you want to call it. The people at BSD, Inc. are going to be the ones concerned with the image of the BSD family as a whole, and I'm sure that they'll give you all the help they can. However, BSD, Inc != FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation, and they may well do things that you might otherwise think seem to be at odds with each other. > There's also a fundamental issue of fairness which needs to be resolved > here. If Walnut Creek is allowed to ship products and packages which bear > the name FreeBSD and which include enhancements and additions to the > FreeBSD project's output (including whole CD-ROMs of third party software!), > I (or anyone else) should be able to do so as well. I don't think there is a fairness issue here at all. The FreeBSD Core Team (and the FreeBSD Foundation, once it has been created) can do whatever the heck they want with the FreeBSD trademark, and there's little you or I or anyone else can say about it. Myself, I think there *is* a "sour grapes" issue here. You want to ride on their coat-tails and get the benefit of associating your product (over which the FreeBSD Core Team and FreeBSD Foundation have no control) with their name (which they are required by law to protect, lest it be released into the public domain). Besides, Jordan has already said that you can produce something that has the FreeBSD name on it, so long as it includes everything on the FreeBSD CD-ROMs. So, take the four ISO images he creates and then add whatever additional content you want on the additional CD-ROMs you will bundle. Create your own "Brett's FreeBSD Power Pak" (or whatever the heck you want to call it) and stop moaning about not being allowed to ship something with the FreeBSD name on it that does not include all the standard stuff according to the ISO images generated by Jordan. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 10:49:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACC537B640 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:49:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1320.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.233.40]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587301260C; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:48:38 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:35:25 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 AM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > In that case, Walnut Creek should not be able to do that either. So, again, > the FreeBSD Foundation should require it to change the names of all of its > "enhanced" FreeBSD packages. Otherwise, it is not being evenhanded. The FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation will make determinations as to what may/may not be done with the FreeBSD name in relation to products, etc.... Presumably they have done so in the past with relation to the "FreeBSD Power Pak", and therefore, by definition, there is no conflict. As I recall, Jordan K. Hubbard (speaking with his "FreeBSD Core Team member" hat on) has said that it can't be called FreeBSD unless it includes *everything* that is considered to be within the FreeBSD project (i.e., everything you get on the CD-ROM images he creates). He didn't say you couldn't add stuff, which is where someone can create a package that includes all four of the standard CD-ROMs and then adds more content -- which is precisely what Walnut Creek has done with the "FreeBSD Power Pak". > Do you understand intellectual property law? It's a trademark, not > a "copyrighted name." Sorry, wrong term. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 11:50:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA8E37B640 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05209; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:50:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313122015.041d5e90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:39:18 -0700 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 AM 3/13/2000 , Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > In that case, Walnut Creek's "FreeBSD Power Pak," which IS FreeBSD > > plus all sorts of goodies, should be required to be renamed for the > > sake of fairness. In fact, even the Walnut Creek 4-CD FreeBSD set > > should be required to be named differently, because it contains > > hundreds of third party products. Sound fair? > >Is it shipping with an official FreeBSD Project RELEASE? "With," yes. But also with lots of other things which, to the consumer, appear to be part of FreeBSD even though they are not the output of the project A version with an enhanced installer, for example, could certainly INCLUDE the original one, though the enhanced one would obviously be the one to use. By the way, Walnut Creek also sells packages with versions of FreeBSD which are not official releases. They still bear the name "FreeBSD." >If you wanted to do something similar like "FreeBSD for Dummies" Someone is in fact doing that. >I can't >see how they'd (The FreeBSD Project) have a problem. Doesn't CheapBytes >sell a product that uses 'FreeBSD' in the name? Yes, but it is unenhanced. Its selling point is primarily that it is cheaper than Walnut Creek's. >I guess that kind of shoots you down. Not at all. > You'd think you'd recognize an example for what it was >and not take it as an invitation to find something from WC that doesn't >exactly match the pattern. Unless they're producing bargain basement knockoffs -- which does nothing to advance the state of the art or promote the use of FreeBSD -- creators of new distributions will want to add value. WC's products illustrate one desirable enhancement. > > Part of the BSD philosophy is that anyone should be able to take the > > project's IP and use it for any purpose. > >Fine, the PR and Brand are totally different from 'IP'. I note that >Microsoft took some BSD IP and used it for any purpose. More power to >'em. It is true that they are different categories of intellectual property. However, the example of Linux has shown that if they are treated in similar ways the results are very positive. > > In that case, isn't Walnut Creek doing exactly that by selling its > > "FreeBSD Power Pak" and other products which > >Nope. If the FreeBSD Project didn't prevent the product from using the >brand so I assume that it meet their standards of quality. (Or maybe >there -is- some under the table funny business!! Oh no!) Well, the fact is that Walnut Creek CD-ROM owned the trademark, so it could use it if it wanted to. This is not going to be the case in the future, as is proper. > > I don't want to hurt FreeBSD. If I ship a product which doesn't have > > the FreeBSD name on it, it will hurt FreeBSD and in fact all of the > > BSDs by giving the Linux zealots the opportunity to claim that the > > BSDs are fragmenting rather than consolidating. > >Yes, but until we see your vapor we can't judge if it will have a positive >or negative impact on FreeBSD. Prior restraint on products and projects is inappropriate. When a product is announced or disclosed under anything but an airtight NDA, discs should already have been manufactured. To ask a newcomer to submit a proposal to a group which consists of representatives of her competitors (meaning that they'd know her product plans), with no guarantee of a timely reply and no firm, objective criteria for approval or disapproval, presents an unacceptable barrier to entry. It may even prevent the newcomer from securing funding to create the product in the first place. > Again, if you are value adding an official >FreeBSD RELEASE I can't see how anyone would have a problem with it >(unless of course it was something in poor taste like shipping with goat >porn or using satanic rituals in concert with the install or something >silly.) Where is this policy stated? How does one know what criteria might be used, given that there are no written conditions for the use of the trademark? One can't exactly order 10,000 discs from the replicator without knowing. And given that fulfillment times are long for that many discs (especially if you want a reasonable price), asking for prior approval means, in effect, preannouncing to one's competitors. Not acceptable. >You've thundered on about this and still haven't told us exactly what you >want to do. See above. A policy implementing prior restraint, or requiring advance disclosure of product plans, is an unacceptable barrier to entry. > You're getting something for nothing here and it still isn't >good enough for you. BSD is all about getting, and then giving back, something for nothing -- casting one's bread upon the water, as it were. In the end, it all works out to everyone's benefit. > > There's also a fundamental issue of fairness which needs to be > > resolved here. If Walnut Creek is allowed to ship products and > > packages which bear the name FreeBSD and which include enhancements > > and additions to the FreeBSD project's output (including whole CD-ROMs > > of third party software!), I (or anyone else) should be able to do so > > as well. > >So long as you are shipping an official FreeBSD RELEASE (and even then WC >ships snapshots). I think the problem is that people are worried that you >will misrepresent FreeBSD in some way. What motivation would I ever have to misrepresent FreeBSD? >It seem easier to believe that >given your track record on the various mailing lists, deserved or no. Please show a specific example of a message in which you believe I have misrepresented FreeBSD in any way, shape, or form -- ever. In any event, you're arguing ad hominem here. Policies for the use of the FreeBSD trademark should be administered impartially regardless of your personal opinion of the person using it. If someone whom I absolutely loathed and despised wanted to use the mark, I would still want him or her to be able to use it on the same terms. That's fair. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 11:50:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8FC937BD23 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05213; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:50:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:50:03 -0700 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:42 AM 3/13/2000 , Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >Wasn't the 4 CD set the install CD, the CVS tree, GNATS, ports, >precompiled packages and distfiles? > >How is that -not- a product of the FreeBSD Project? The precompiled packages are not products of the FreeBSD Project. They consist of works such as Apache, etc. which are generated completely independently and over whose development and quality the Project exercises no control. Just like a third-party installer would. > > Over time, programs with serious bugs and security holes, including > > Version 2.4 of QPopper and easily compromised versions of BIND, have > > shipped on the Walnut Creek discs. > >Sure, and I suppose you think that WC is responsible for the holes in BIND >and Sendmail that shipped with 1.1.5.1. "Damnit! They're hurting >FreeBSD!" Again, suppose they included a third party installer. Or maybe TWO third party installers, for that matter, so you could take your choice. Why would bugs in these be any more harmful to FreeBSD's reputation than bugs in any other third party product included on the discs? >I think you're just gonna have to be a reasonable human like the rest of >us if you want to profit from someone elses hard work. I think I'm being entirely reasonable when I ask that use of the mark: 1. Not be subject to prior restraint on publication; 2. Not require that companies reveal product plans to competitors or their employees prior to shipment; 3. Not delay the shipment of products pending approval from a governing body; 4. Be as immune as possible to politics and/or the interests of commercial entities; 5. Be adminstered evenhandedly and fairly according to a written and published policy; and 6. Not be administered in such a way as to give any publisher or potential publisher a unique advantage. I certainly wouldn't want MY hard work to inure to the benefit of a single for-profit company when I had intended it to be benefit everyone. >I know my >interests in FreeBSD lead me to support the current situation with respect >to the "FreeBSD" trademark/brand. The current situation is that only Walnut Creek can safely use the mark at all. Even CheapBytes is going out on a limb. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 12:16: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FA337B661 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19026; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:15:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > I think I'm being entirely reasonable when I ask that use of the mark: > > 1. Not be subject to prior restraint on publication; > > 2. Not require that companies reveal product plans to competitors or > their employees prior to shipment; > > 3. Not delay the shipment of products pending approval from a > governing body; > > 4. Be as immune as possible to politics and/or the interests of > commercial entities; > > 5. Be adminstered evenhandedly and fairly according to a written and > published policy; and > > 6. Not be administered in such a way as to give any publisher or potential > publisher a unique advantage. "It will all be yours on the first of Octember!" -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 12:24:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBB837B66C for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:23:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05606; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:23:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:23:34 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 AM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > The FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation will make determinations as to what may/may not be done with the FreeBSD name in relation to products, etc.... Presumably they have done so in the past with relation to the "FreeBSD Power Pak", and therefore, by definition, there is no conflict. Was the Core Team consulted about this? No, not at all. Remember, Walnut Creek owned the trademark. It didn't need to. Let's suppose, just for example, that Walnut Creek had no previous association with FreeBSD and wanted to put out the "FreeBSD Power Pak" today. Would it want to reveal its product plans in advance, and/or have the FreeBSD Core Team design its product for it? Would it be willing to have its hands tied if it was considering making improvements or changes? Would it be willing to preannounce its product to competitors, and/or wait some indeterminate amount of time for approval according to unwritten criteria? I'd wager not. It would probably just go and publish a Linux distribution instead. > As I recall, Jordan K. Hubbard (speaking with his "FreeBSD Core Team member" hat on) has said that it can't be called FreeBSD unless it includes *everything* that is considered to be within the FreeBSD project (i.e., everything you get on the CD-ROM images he creates). This is not reasonable. After all, many consumers would like an x86-specific disc which doesn't contain the Alpha stuff, especially if this reduced the cost of the product or allowed more features to be added. Also, what about the possibility of putting just the install discs on CD-ROM, rather than having users mess with floppies? > He didn't say you couldn't add stuff, which is where someone can create a package that includes all four of the standard CD-ROMs and then adds more content -- which is precisely what Walnut Creek has done with the "FreeBSD Power Pak". The four CD-ROMs shipped by Walnut Creek contain far more than the FreeBSD Project's output. Even the first disc contains some programs which are not generated by the FreeBSD Project (e.g. FIPS). Also, a product produced by Walnut Creek should not set the "standard" for another company; otherwise, competitors will have their product design dictated by Walnut Creek. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 12:28:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E2237BF16 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup729.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.217]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2773ECEF4; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:28:23 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:22:42 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:50 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > The precompiled packages are not products of the FreeBSD Project. > They consist of works such as Apache, etc. which are generated > completely independently and over whose development and quality > the Project exercises no control. Just like a third-party installer > would. cd /usr/ports; make install; make cd-image-for-ports I'd say that this is about as FreeBSD-specific as you can get. And considering that FreeBSD-specific patches are frequently applied for the ports subsystem, the output from this could be construed to be a FreeBSD product. However, other than providing best-effort-let-us-know-if-it-breaks support, this is as far as FreeBSD goes with these third-party programs. > Again, suppose they included a third party installer. Or maybe TWO > third party installers, for that matter, so you could take your choice. > Why would bugs in these be any more harmful to FreeBSD's reputation > than bugs in any other third party product included on the discs? Put them in /usr/ports, and no one will complain to Jordan (as Release Engineer for FreeBSD) if they break. However, if you want to get them incorporated into the base part of the OS, you're going to have a bit more work to do. If you're willing to do that work, and the result is a better installer than we have today, then GREAT!!! If you want to hold that work off for yourself and produce something based on FreeBSD but with your custom version of the installer, you're free to do that and call it whatever you want -- so long as you don't use the name "FreeBSD". > The current situation is that only Walnut Creek can safely use the mark > at all. Even CheapBytes is going out on a limb. Instead of bitching and moaning about problems that are likely to be non-existant, why don't you do something novel for a change, and actually contact Jordan (or other members of the FreeBSD Core Team) to see what the exact terms of the use of the Trademark are? Otherwise, you're wasting your time, mine, Matt's, Doug's, Paul's, and that of every single other person on this list. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 12:34:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E72D37BD6F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:34:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05729; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:34:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313132347.041d25a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:34:12 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:46 AM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: >> Part of the BSD philosophy is that anyone should be able to take the project's >> IP and use it for any purpose. > > Code, yes. IP, no. If they allowed you to take any of their IP and use it for whatever you want, then it would be in the "public domain", and there would be no such thing as a BSD license. Not true. The primary reason for the BSD license is to limit the authors' exposure to liability problems. However, it allows the code to be used in any way one desires. >> I don't want to hurt FreeBSD. If I ship a product which doesn't have the >> FreeBSD name on it, it will hurt FreeBSD and in fact all of the BSDs >> by giving the Linux zealots the opportunity to claim that the BSDs are >> fragmenting rather than consolidating. > > I don't think there's anything you need to worry about here. The members of the FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation won't lose any sleep at night because you are not allowed to call your product "Brett's x86-only no-EIDE/ATA laptop-specific customized FreeBSD", or whatever the heck it is you want to call it. No, but they'll find that the Linux PR Machine will generate vast amounts of negative PR that *will* hurt them. A lot. > The people at BSD, Inc. are going to be the ones concerned with the image of the BSD family as a whole, and I'm sure that they'll give you all the help they can. Not so. BSD, Inc. will be a competitor of any alternative distribution. While it would be nice to see "coop-etition," or in fact to see them selling the alternative distribution too, one can never assume that it would occur. And it is certainly unreasonable to take it as a given that they would give "all the help they can." > However, BSD, Inc != FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation, and they may well do things that you might otherwise think seem to be at odds with each other. The FreeBSD Foundation will, in fact, have an interest in promoting the development of multiple distributions. If it does not do so, it will indicate that there are conflicts of interest. >> There's also a fundamental issue of fairness which needs to be resolved >> here. If Walnut Creek is allowed to ship products and packages which bear >> the name FreeBSD and which include enhancements and additions to the >> FreeBSD project's output (including whole CD-ROMs of third party software!), >> I (or anyone else) should be able to do so as well. > > I don't think there is a fairness issue here at all. The FreeBSD Core Team (and the FreeBSD Foundation, once it has been created) can do whatever the heck they want with the FreeBSD trademark, and there's little you or I or anyone else can say about it. Not if they're a non-profit foundation. They must accomplish the purposes laid out in their bylaws -- presumably, to promote the proliferation of FreeBSD -- and must do so in an evenhanded manner. If they favor one distributor, they WILL lose their non-profit status. > Myself, I think there *is* a "sour grapes" issue here. There is. A few people, such as Matthew, are declaring that the grapes (the distributions I and others would like to put out) are "sour," sight unseen. > You want to ride on their coat-tails and get the benefit of associating your product (over which the FreeBSD Core Team and FreeBSD Foundation have no control) with their name (which they are required by law to protect, lest it be released into the public domain). Or, depending how you look at it, they'd ride on MY coattails and benefit from the time, money, and effort I invested in marketing, software development, etc. This is what has happened in the Linux world. The rising tide of multiple distributions has floated all boats. > Besides, Jordan has already said that you can produce something that has the FreeBSD name on it, so long as it includes everything on the FreeBSD CD-ROMs. Actually, he said the *first* CD-ROM. But this is still an onerous requirement, because it requires a multiple-CD set when one might otherwise not be needed. And precludes the production of products with an online component that provides parts as needed. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 12:46:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE1C37BE30 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup729.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.217]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D97CEAD; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:46:20 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:38:58 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:23 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > Was the Core Team consulted about this? No, not at all. Remember, > Walnut Creek owned the trademark. It didn't need to. Consider that the bulk of the FreeBSD Core Team probably works for Walnut Creek, and there is likely to be no conflict here. Of course, Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. is doing the Right Thing by transferring the Trademark to the FreeBSD Foundation (and it use will be governed by the FreeBSD Core Team until then), but this fact does not create a problem in the past when there was none at the time. > Let's suppose, just for example, that Walnut Creek had no previous > association with FreeBSD and wanted to put out the "FreeBSD Power Pak" > today. Would it want to reveal its product plans in advance, and/or > have the FreeBSD Core Team design its product for it? It would presumably reveal its plans to the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation, just like everyone else. By giving them enough detail to convince them that the FreeBSD trademark will be properly recognized and utilized in the resulting product, presumably the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation would give their approval to the use of the trademark. > This is not reasonable. After all, many consumers would like > an x86-specific disc which doesn't contain the Alpha stuff, > especially if this reduced the cost of the product or allowed > more features to be added. Speaking as the FreeBSD Release Engineer, and as a member of the FreeBSD Core Team, I suspect that Jordan's statement is pretty much final. Anybody who wants to ship something with the FreeBSD trademark associated with it will need to include at the very least the same four standard ISO images that he produces and makes available for anyone who wants to download them and burn them with a writer. If you can't live with this restriction, then go create your own version of BSD and quit wasting our time. > The four CD-ROMs shipped by Walnut Creek contain far more > than the FreeBSD Project's output. Even the first disc > contains some programs which are not generated by the FreeBSD > Project (e.g. FIPS). Obviously you didn't even bother reading what I wrote. More stuff is okay. They just can't include anything less than the four standard ISO images that Jordan produces. > Also, a product produced by Walnut Creek should not set the > "standard" for another company; otherwise, competitors will > have their product design dictated by Walnut Creek. Until now, since Walnut Creek has owned the FreeBSD trademark, they could do pretty much whatever they wanted with it, and there's no amount of bitching and whining you can do that will help. Going forward, the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation will have control over what happens with the FreeBSD trademark, and they can determine the minimum acceptable standards to which all players will have to adhere -- and Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. will have to play by those same rules, just like everyone else. If you can't live with that fact, I suggest you go somewhere else and quit wasting our time. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 12:53:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CABC37BEF0 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12UboN-0007yZ-00; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:51:35 +0200 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:51:35 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo Message-ID: <20000313225134.A30356@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2000-03-13 (12:50), Brett Glass wrote: > The precompiled packages are not products of the FreeBSD Project. > They consist of works such as Apache, etc. which are generated > completely independently and over whose development and quality > the Project exercises no control. Just like a third-party installer > would. That's not true. Those packages are generated by the project. Kindly don't state as fact things you don't know. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13: 3: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4157037B548 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06098; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:02:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:02:27 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000313225134.A30356@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:51 PM 3/13/2000 , Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >On Mon 2000-03-13 (12:50), Brett Glass wrote: > > The precompiled packages are not products of the FreeBSD Project. > > They consist of works such as Apache, etc. which are generated > > completely independently and over whose development and quality > > the Project exercises no control. Just like a third-party installer > > would. > >That's not true. Those packages are generated by the project. > >Kindly don't state as fact things you don't know. Sorry, but Apache, Samba, and 99% of the other packages on those discs are not products of the FreeBSD Project. It has no control over their development nor their quality. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13: 3:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE15137B665 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup729.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.217]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B360CD0F; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:03:16 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313132347.041d25a0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313132347.041d25a0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:00:26 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:34 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > Not true. The primary reason for the BSD license is to limit the authors' > exposure to liability problems. However, it allows the code to be used > in any way one desires. Code != IP, Code != Trademark As I said, I think you've clearly demonstrated your lack of understanding of this issue. > No, but they'll find that the Linux PR Machine will generate vast amounts > of negative PR that *will* hurt them. A lot. They can try, but if they draw attention to this, then BSD, Inc. can fire back with "Hey, what about all those things you call 'distributions'? Surely that's a fragmenting of your market!" I think the various companies and organizations that produce Linux distributions are smart enough to make sure that they avoid that obvious retort, because the result would cause them far more damage than it could to BSD, Inc. > The FreeBSD Foundation will, in fact, have an interest in promoting the > development of multiple distributions. If it does not do so, it will > indicate that there are conflicts of interest. Bullshit. You're claiming that you're God, and that whatever you say is the TRUTH, because you *SAY* it's the TRUTH. And that's just plain Bullshit. A conflict of interest doesn't necessarily exist just because Brett Glass says it does, nor does it exist just because Brad Knowles says it does. The FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation will do whatever they think is in the best interests of the FreeBSD project, and whatever they feel they need to in order to protect the FreeBSD trademark. And there is nothing you, I, or anyone else can say about that, except what our personal opinion is of their efforts in this area -- but that's nothing more than our personal opinions. > Not if they're a non-profit foundation. They must accomplish the purposes > laid out in their bylaws -- presumably, to promote the proliferation > of FreeBSD -- and must do so in an evenhanded manner. If they favor > one distributor, they WILL lose their non-profit status. They will have a set of standards that must be adhered to, regardless of who might be distributing the product. If you choose to adhere to those standards, then you're welcome to come up with your own distribution that adds whatever additional value you may care to create. But it has to meet the standards, otherwise it won't be allowed to exist. There's absolutely nothing in here that says anything about favouring one distributor over another, lack of even-handedness, or anything else. It's simply defining a set of standards and ensuring that everyone plays by them. > Or, depending how you look at it, they'd ride on MY coattails and benefit > from the time, money, and effort I invested in marketing, software > development, etc. Given what I've seen from you here, I think that's highly unlikely. However, so long as you're willing to abide by the standards, then you're welcome to add whatever additional value you like in whatever way you like. > This is what has happened in the Linux world. The rising tide of multiple > distributions has floated all boats. Too many cooks in the kitchen will spoil the broth. We're already starting to see this in the Linux camp, and the situation will only get worse for them. > Actually, he said the *first* CD-ROM. But this is still an onerous > requirement, because it requires a multiple-CD set when one might > otherwise not be needed. And precludes the production of products > with an online component that provides parts as needed. Sorry, guy. That's part of the standard. Either you agree to the standard and you get to play, or you don't and you don't. It's that simple. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13: 9:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC1D37B665 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup729.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.217]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id A576DCDD1; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:08:53 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:08:09 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:02 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > Sorry, but Apache, Samba, and 99% of the other packages on those > discs are not products of the FreeBSD Project. It has no control > over their development nor their quality. Why don't you do this: cd /usr/ports make install And watch to see how many FreeBSD-specific patches are applied? Yes, the base products are from other teams, but there is a very clear value-add that FreeBSD provides by integrating recent versions of their products and applying FreeBSD-specific patches to them so that they will interoperate best with the OS. When you do the above and generate a CD-ROM from the output, the result is clearly a FreeBSD product. Heck, I doubt that any of those binaries would even begin to run with any other OS, even another flavour of BSD on the same hardware platform. That's about as FreeBSD-specific as you can get. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:18:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2148037BCDC for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:18:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06362; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:18:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313140446.041df3d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:18:05 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:38 PM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > Consider that the bulk of the FreeBSD Core Team probably works for Walnut Creek, and there is likely to be no conflict here. Yes, there is a BIG conflict. Many key authors of FreeBSD, past and present, made their contributions with the understanding that they were not working for the benefit of one company -- Walnut Creek -- but rather for the good of anyone who wanted to use the code. > Of course, Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. is doing the Right Thing by transferring the Trademark to the FreeBSD Foundation (and it use will be governed by the FreeBSD Core Team until then), but this fact does not create a problem in the past when there was none at the time. It creates a problem going forward. For FreeBSD to achieve anywhere near the success or penetration of Linux (or even keep up with it!), there must be multiple distributions. Restricting use of the trademark so that no one but Walnut Creek can produce something called "FreeBSD" will hinder that and will hurt FreeBSD's reputation by making anything else look like a fork. >> Let's suppose, just for example, that Walnut Creek had no previous >> association with FreeBSD and wanted to put out the "FreeBSD Power Pak" >> today. Would it want to reveal its product plans in advance, and/or >> have the FreeBSD Core Team design its product for it? > > It would presumably reveal its plans to the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation, just like everyone else. Stop right there. Since, as you've mentioned, the majority of the Core Team work for Walnut Creek, this would require that any company which did this reveal its product plans to SEVERAL employees of a competitor. This is an inappropriate requirement. > By giving them enough detail to convince them that the FreeBSD trademark will be properly recognized and utilized in the resulting product, presumably the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation would give their approval to the use of the trademark. In what timeframe? What if the product were expanded or enhanced? What if features needed to be cut to make a ship date? Again, prior restraint and/or a requirement to wait for approval is inappropriate. The criteria must be published IN ADVANCE and must apply to all. > Speaking as the FreeBSD Release Engineer, and as a member of the FreeBSD Core Team, I suspect that Jordan's statement is pretty much final. Anybody who wants to ship something with the FreeBSD trademark associated with it will need to include at the very least the same four standard ISO images that he produces and makes available for anyone who wants to download them and burn them with a writer. There are several things in the above paragraph which are not correct. First, Jordan makes only the first ISO image of the set available online. Second, he has stated that he would only require the contents of the FIRST disc to be included. (This is still too much, however, because it means that a competitor of Walnut Creek cannot ship a one-disc solution with enhancements.) > If you can't live with this restriction, then go create your own version of BSD and quit wasting our time. I don't think that it would be in ANYONE'S interest for those who create new distributions to be forced to say, "It's better than FreeBSD." This would indeed be fragmentation and would hurt the Project. Instead, the FreeBSD Project should want them to say, "It IS FreeBSD, with our unique value added." >More stuff is okay. They just can't include anything less than the four standard ISO images that Jordan produces. You're asking even more than Jordan asks, when in fact (as mentioned above) less is necessary. >> Also, a product produced by Walnut Creek should not set the >> "standard" for another company; otherwise, competitors will >> have their product design dictated by Walnut Creek. > > Until now, since Walnut Creek has owned the FreeBSD trademark, they could do pretty much whatever they wanted with it, and there's no amount of bitching and whining you can do that will help. Not relevant. Walnut Creek's products should not dictate the design of other people's products. Period. > Going forward, the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation will have control over what happens with the FreeBSD trademark, and they can determine the minimum acceptable standards to which all players will have to adhere -- and Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. will have to play by those same rules, just like everyone else. As I mentioned in an earlier message, these standards should be published, open, and fair, and should not require prior approval of spcific products. They should also take into account new and novel forms of packaging and distribution. Requiring every product to contain 4 CD-ROMs which are identical to an existing product is NOT a way to encourage innovation. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:29:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA2E37BC67 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06511; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:28:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:28:39 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:08 PM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > When you do the above and generate a CD-ROM from the output, the result is clearly a FreeBSD product. Heck, I doubt that any of those binaries would even begin to run with any other OS, even another flavour of BSD on the same hardware platform. Compiling an open source product for one OS does not make it a product of the developers of that OS, even if they provided instructions for how to do it. Only the instructions are their product. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:32:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2417C37B67D for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06562; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:32:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313143123.0410ec10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:32:00 -0700 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:15 PM 3/13/2000 , Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >"It will all be yours on the first of Octember!" It would all be mine already if I wanted to publish a Linux distro. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:34: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592AD37B619 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:33:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12UcSZ-00085g-00; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:33:07 +0200 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:33:07 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo Message-ID: <20000313233307.A30738@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2000-03-13 (14:28), Brett Glass wrote: > Compiling an open source product for one OS does not make it a > product of the developers of that OS, even if they provided > instructions for how to do it. Only the instructions are their > product. Brett, kindly admit when you're wrong. FreeBSD, the project, generates packages. Those packages are put on the Walnut Creek CDROM set. It is _FreeBSD_ who generates those packages, and it is _not_ Walnut Creek who does so. If that isn't clear - The FreeBSD Project offers as a product a set of packages. Walnut Creek takes those products and puts them on a CD. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:36:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5491C37B65D for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:36:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06623; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:36:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313143452.041d34f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:36:07 -0700 To: "John Daniels" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and ... In-Reply-To: <20000313065644.28278.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:56 PM 3/12/2000 , John Daniels wrote: >Hi: >To throw some light on this ongoing converstation, prehaps it is worthwhile to go to the source: >Linus Torvalds recently described his view of the Linux trademark: > http://linuxtoday.com/stories/15302.html Good point. Linus also balks at cybersquatting. >My 2cents: >It is in both WC/BSDI's and FreeBSD developers and users interest that 1) the aims and integrity of FreeBSD are respected, and 2) FreeBSD grows in usage. It seems natural that over time, this will lead to a greater separation between FreeBSD and WC/BSDI and additional commercial distributors/ventures. This may evolve in a way similar to linux but will probably also have some unique characteristics. > >Mostly, the current discussion demonstrates the need for WC/BSDI to provide as much information about their plans as soon as possible. I agree! I'm waiting with bated breath to publish what I think is some great stuff. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:39:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3730C37B619 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:39:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1221.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.197]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95600CE09; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:39:35 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313140446.041df3d0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313140446.041df3d0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:37:06 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:18 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > Yes, there is a BIG conflict. Many key authors of FreeBSD, past and present, > made their contributions with the understanding that they were not working > for the benefit of one company -- Walnut Creek -- but rather for the good > of anyone who wanted to use the code. That's basically what has happened so far, and the folks at Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. are doing things to help make sure that this continues to happen -- by transferring the trademark to the FreeBSD Foundation, etc.... You are manufacturing a problem here when, in fact, none exists. > It creates a problem going forward. For FreeBSD to achieve anywhere near the > success or penetration of Linux (or even keep up with it!), there must be > multiple distributions. Why? Prove to me that you understand this issue well enough that there have to be multiple distributions of FreeBSD, as opposed to FreeBSD being just one distribution of BSD. Until you can prove that, your argument has no basis whatsoever. Fundamentally, FreeBSD is just one version of BSD. You're welcome to create your own version of BSD if you want, but you can't call it FreeBSD. > Stop right there. Since, as you've mentioned, the majority of the Core > Team work for Walnut Creek, this would require that any company which > did this reveal its product plans to SEVERAL employees of a competitor. > This is an inappropriate requirement. Considering that the members of the FreeBSD Core Team are not all multi-trillionaires that can support themselves financially by just blinking their eyes, you have to accept the fact that they are going to have other jobs, and that some of them are going to work for companies that you might consider to be competitors. That's just the way life in this world is. If you can't live with that, then I would suggest you go somewhere else. Myself, I figure that these guys are adult enough and aware enough of the potential conflict of interest (and the problems that might result) that they can keep the two parts of their lives separate. > The criteria > must be published IN ADVANCE and must apply to all. I'm sure that they will be. However, until such time as they are published, there's no sense your continuing to bitch and moan about this non-problem. > There are several things in the above paragraph which are not correct. First, > Jordan makes only the first ISO image of the set available online. Second, he > has stated that he would only require the contents of the FIRST disc to be > included. (This is still too much, however, because it means that a >competitor > of Walnut Creek cannot ship a one-disc solution with enhancements.) Great! So the situation is even better for you, and yet you still bitch! Jesus Christ, guy -- what the hell more do you want? Are you expecting Jordan to personally go in and illegally change Bill Gate's will so as to name you the sole heir, and then to murder him so that you can get all that money?!? > I don't think that it would be in ANYONE'S interest for those who create new > distributions to be forced to say, "It's better than FreeBSD." This would > indeed be fragmentation and would hurt the Project. Instead, the FreeBSD > Project should want them to say, "It IS FreeBSD, with our unique >value added." Well, I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. > Not relevant. Walnut Creek's products should not dictate the design > of other people's products. Period. They have come first, they set the standard, and therefore everyone else's products will have to take that into consideration. That's about the extent of how they "dictate" the design of other people's products. > As I mentioned in an earlier message, these standards should be > published, open, and fair, I'm sure they will be. Now, if you'll just hold your bloody horses and quit bitching and moaning about them before they're even created, maybe the rest of us can get something useful done. > and should not require prior approval of > spcific products. So, HOW THE HELL else do you propose that they manage any kind of quality control over the product, and ensure that the FreeBSD trademark is properly protected?!? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:42:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF1C37BB8E for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:42:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06705; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:42:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313143821.041e3750@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:42:06 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: Brad Knowles , "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000313233307.A30738@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:33 PM 3/13/2000 , Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >Brett, kindly admit when you're wrong. > >FreeBSD, the project, generates packages. Those packages are put >on the Walnut Creek CDROM set. It is _FreeBSD_ who generates those >packages, and it is _not_ Walnut Creek who does so. The FreeBSD Project has no control over the development of the packaged products, and hence their quality is not and should not be reflected in the reputation of FreeBSD itself. The fact that these products appear on a CD-ROM bearing the name FreeBSD does not make them the products of the FreeBSD Project, any more than the fact that a package of Campbell's Soup appears in my local Safeway supermarket makes it a Safeway product. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 13:53:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167FF37B625 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1221.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.197]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A4122F4; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:53:14 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313141845.041db170@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313132347.041d25a0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313110822.03d71ee0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313132347.041d25a0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313141845.041db170@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:47:51 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:26 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > And they'll say, "Well, ours are all called Linux." You have ABSD, and BBSD, > and CBSD.... How is that different from Ultrix, AIX, A/UX, and HP/UX? You're > fragmented. > > They'll have a point. No, they're all BSD, and all based on the same code. They're no more different than the various Linux distributions. It would be rather silly to start calling them "Free BSD" and "Net BSD" and "Open BSD" just because they call theirs "Red Hat Linux" and "Corel Linux" and "Debian Linux". What bloody difference does a space character in the name make?!? > Well, let's see those standards. Maybe if you'll stop bitching and moaning about problems with standards that haven't even been published yet, then maybe people can get started working on things like this. > Until this point, the terms have favored one distributor. It's time for > this to change. Why? Why does FreeBSD have to have more than one distributor? And why does the entire Universe have to change the laws of physics, just to make you happy? > They're different kitchens. Right. You think that McDonalds in Belgium is significantly different from McDonalds anywhere else in the world? What makes you think that this would be true for Linux? Sure, Mcdonalds over here has some products that are a little different from what you'd see in the US, but the base product is the same pretty much all over the world. > The same should be true for FreeBSD. Any standard which required the contents > of the CDs to be the same would hurt immensely. The contents of all the CDs don't have to be the same -- you just have to include the entire first CD-ROM. That's all. What's so hard about that? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 14: 6:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBEBA37B626 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:06:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12Ucxb-0008C3-00; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:05:11 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:05:11 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo Message-ID: <20000314000511.B30738@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> <20000313233307.A30738@mithrandr.moria.org> <4.2.2.20000313143821.041e3750@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313143821.041e3750@localhost> Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2000-03-13 (14:42), Brett Glass wrote: > >Brett, kindly admit when you're wrong. > > > >FreeBSD, the project, generates packages. Those packages are put > >on the Walnut Creek CDROM set. It is _FreeBSD_ who generates those > >packages, and it is _not_ Walnut Creek who does so. > > The FreeBSD Project has no control over the development > of the packaged products, and hence their quality is not > and should not be reflected in the reputation of FreeBSD itself. > > The fact that these products appear on a CD-ROM bearing the name > FreeBSD does not make them the products of the FreeBSD Project, > any more than the fact that a package of Campbell's Soup > appears in my local Safeway supermarket makes it a Safeway > product. Now, don't take this personally, but you are going on a tangeant that has nothing to do with my original comment (which may, indeed been a tangeant on yours). I never said that your installer couldn't be a package. I never said your installer could be default. I never said anything, in fact, besides that it isn't _Walnut_Creek_ that creates the packages, but FreeBSD (and as such, Walnut Creek have every right to put it in their distribution without seeking specific permission for every package). Perhaps we misinterpreted each other, but that's all I was saying. You quite clearly said "which are generated completely independently", to which I replied "The packages are generated by the project". Also realize, of course, that the project doesn't have all that much control over sendmail, bind, gcc, and numerous other projects included in the source tree. However, by including the software in the source or ports tree, the project generates some end-product that they are producing. To use your example - some (mostly discount/bulk) stores produce "no-name" or shop-specific brands. They don't control the production of these, but they sell them. ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/packages-3-stable/apache_1.3.6.tgz is a product of the FreeBSD project, even if the pre-production work is developed by others. Safeway, at least here, does do this too. ;) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 14:32:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD1737B580 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABE335B6 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:27:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:27:45 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: What result would *you* like from the merger? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Everyone is talking about the merger, so I thought I'd start a new thread: What would you like to see from the merger? I would like to see two things - native support of Oracle and VMWare. Oracle has partnered with Red Hat - why not partner with BSDI? BSDI is proably more profitable and would be another IPO for Oracle to buy into. VMWare could be brought in to the BSD fold as well. How? Offer to help them get VMWare working natively under BSD and then bundle it, just like Mandrake Linux does with their PowerPack. I'm sure everyone can think of ways the merger can help their particular need - let's hear them! Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 15: 1: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stage1.thirdage.com (stage1.thirdage.com [4.18.197.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5327B37B5BB for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jal@thirdage.com) Received: from rubbish (rubbish.thirdage.com [4.18.197.220]) by stage1.thirdage.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA25239; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:59:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000313145538.03102620@mail.thirdage.com> X-Sender: jal@mail.thirdage.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:59:07 -0800 To: Brett Glass From: Jamie Lawrence Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000306003715.041255e0@localhost> References: <20000304233500.A15262@thirdage.com> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:41 AM 3/6/00 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >At 12:35 AM 3/5/2000 , Jamie A. Lawrence wrote: > > >This from a serious anarchist who wants to see private roads everywhere. > >If you are either an anarchist or a Libertarian, you would most likely >NOT like to see what would happen if this were so. Instead of ELECTED >government, you would be subject to the tyranny of private empires and >fiefdoms, which are far worse. In almost every case where vital >infrastructure is privatized, the new boss isn't the same as the old >boss -- he's dramatically worse. Very late response... and extremely off topic, even for -chat. You seem to be extremely confused about the definition of anarchism and {l,L}ibertarianism. I'm not going to educate you on -chat, though. > >If everyone payed a private entity to get to work, we'd see a saner > >commute schedule. > >You'd be stopping every mile to pay a troll. Such unfortunate phrasing... But no, anyone who annoyed customers that much would find themselves routed around. -j To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 15:14:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972F937B563 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:14:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07752; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:14:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313161118.041e0d10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:13:28 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Correction of typo Cc: Brad Knowles , "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000314000511.B30738@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313143821.041e3750@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313142736.041d2c70@localhost> <20000313233307.A30738@mithrandr.moria.org> <4.2.2.20000313143821.041e3750@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:05 PM 3/13/2000 , Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >Perhaps we misinterpreted each other, but that's all I was saying. >You quite clearly said "which are generated completely independently", >to which I replied "The packages are generated by the project". Perhaps the problem is with the word "package." There are two senses of the word here: "package" in the sense of the software product itself, and "package" in the sense of the gzipped build that is posted on the FreeBSD server. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 15:50: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F58A37B5CD for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:49:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1204.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.180]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F2CCBA0; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:49:41 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:41:29 +0100 To: Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:27 PM -0500 2000/3/13, Eric Wayte wrote: > I would like to see two things - native support of Oracle and VMWare. > Oracle has partnered with Red Hat - why not partner with BSDI? BSDI is > proably more profitable and would be another IPO for Oracle to buy into. Oracle is already in the works. Jordan mentioned this at the NLFUG meeting, and went so far as to say that he had a pre-release beta of Oracle running on his laptop. It's basically a matter of convincing Oracle to release the product. VMWare I can't speak for. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16: 6:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f92.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD09E37B5A8 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:06:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 50394 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 2000 00:06:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20000314000623.50393.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.220.228.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:06:23 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.220.228.2] From: "John Daniels" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The merger, and ... Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:06:23 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi: I have been following this conversation as I'm sure many others are. I am new to FreeBSD but I am as interested as anyone in what the future holds for my OS of choice. As I noted in a prior posting, I believe that it is in everyone's interest to respect the FreeBSD project's integrity AND to promote FreeBSD. Thus, I am confident that "the powers that be" will see that the commercial issues get sorted out in an acceptable way. Clearly, the terms on the use of the trademark should not be overly restrictive, but at the same time, a line does have to be drawn: there must be a point defined where one should have the right to call something FreeBSD. So far, the argument has been: how little can I include and still have the right to call my distro "FreeBSD." Perhaps we can illuminate the issue somewhat if we consider it from the opposite direction? At what point should a firm have the *obligation* to attribute it's product to the FreeBSD Foundation? It would seem that this would also have to be addressed since the Trademark holder is obligated to protect it's Trademark. If I use code snippits, sections or modules, I'm probably OK -- I can (and must) atribute what I have used within the code. This is standard BSD, and end-users do not have to know that they are using a system with BSD code. But what if XYZ company uses the kernel as a whole? Should that require more noticeable recognition or attribution? What if I use everything but ports? what if I use an exact copy of the first CD? etc. If the Trademark pertains to physical CD's only, then what if a company includes _everything_ but rearranges the contents. Can (should?) they be allowed to sell this as "XYZ OS," without any outward attribution to FreeBSD? Whatever "FreeBSD" is defined as, shouldn't that be the same if we are coming from the lower bounds, as well as from the upper? I don't know the answer. Maybe there needs to be several Trademarks (kernel, distro, security, ports, etc.) I would think that such policy issues will become clearer in the next few weeks and that they may even change somewhat over time. Lastly, I am not interested in taking sides, in fact IMO it is counter productive to get too agitated over these issues at this point. However, I feel that I should point out that some of the attacks against Mr. Glass appear to be unjustified. I don't know what his prior postings have been, or the basis (if any) for suspicion about his intentions, but it does not appear to be a *bad* thing that someone wants to create value-added products and appears to be willing to work within the FreeBSD community to do so. His arguements for fairness do not seem to be entirely off-base or deserving of partisan negativity. Please do not construe my remarks as an attack on the many people who rightfully feel some loyalty toward the people and efforts of WC/BSDI. I appreciate WC/BSDI support as much as anyone and I do understand that BSDI is now the defacto standard bearer for BSD. There is a natural reaction (I feel it too) to close ranks and rally around the flag. John ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16:26:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E0A37B66B for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.24.123] (dialup1204.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.180]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728CA12222; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:25:36 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000314000623.50393.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <20000314000623.50393.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:14:54 +0100 To: "John Daniels" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The merger, and ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:06 PM -0500 2000/3/13, John Daniels wrote: > But what if XYZ company uses the kernel as a whole? Should that > require more noticeable recognition or attribution? What if I use > everything but ports? what if I use an exact copy of the first CD? > etc. If the Trademark pertains to physical CD's only, then what > if a company includes _everything_ but rearranges the contents. > Can (should?) they be allowed to sell this as "XYZ OS," without > any outward attribution to FreeBSD? The beauty of the BSD license is that you can take any piece of code you want, use it any way you want, and you can call it anything you want (except where this might infringe on other established trademarks), and as I recall the latest versions of the BSD license don't even require that you acknowledge the copyright holders in your advertisements -- only in the place(s) where you put your own trademark/copyright notices. The key here is that if you want to take advantage of the "FreeBSD" brand, you've got a much higher standard that you will be held to, because now you're taking not only the code, but you're also trying to market it with the same brand. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16:33: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5856C37B680 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:32:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6AE1D131; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:32:53 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CD88B5.DBF58B1E@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:32:53 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Daniels Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The merger, and ... References: <20000314000623.50393.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Daniels wrote: > .... > So far, the argument has been: how little can I include and still have the > right to call my distro "FreeBSD." Perhaps we can illuminate the issue > somewhat if we consider it from the opposite direction? At what point > should a firm have the *obligation* to attribute it's product to the FreeBSD > Foundation? It would seem that this would also have to be addressed since > the Trademark holder is obligated to protect it's Trademark. These requirements are a feature of the license and not of the trademark. The FreeBSD license is very free, it requires nothing and only prohibits claiming the work is your own. Some parts of the system may still have the older license that requires attribution in advertising but I doubt that that would be enforced given that the new license does not include that clause. The trademark issue is an entirely different matter and has nothing to do with the use of the code. Trademark law exists to prevent companies producing copycat products with the same or similar names and "tricking" consumers into buying the copycat product in the mistaken belief that it is the "real thing". That is why brown fizzy drinks have to be called cola rather than coke, it doesn't actually stop them producing a similar product but they must create their own branding and not ride on the coat tails of the coke brand. The crux of the issue is whether the project considers that other distributions of FreeBSD would be ripoffs trying to ride on the coat tails of the FreeBSD name or wether they would be genuine members of the FreeBSD community. The concerns being raised, that seem to get lost in the noise, are that the FreeBSD foundation should allow the use of the FreeBSD name if it does not have a detrimental effect on the projec in order to allow other companies to become active members of the FreeBSD community. What would be unnacceptable, given that FreeBSD is an open-source volunteer based project, is if the foundation prevented reasonable use of the trademark in order to prevent competitors of WC/BSDI from appearing. There is a very straigthforward question that we can ask ourselves. Do we believe that WC/BSDI, should have a protected status as the commercial vendor of FreeBSD? or Do we believe that FreeBSD should be made available to all commercial vendors who are willing to abide by the projects rules and have a genuine interest in being active proponents of the project. If you believe in the latter then the issue then becomes one of defining conditions that provide a level playing field for all interested parties. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16:41:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF48D37B64F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA33992; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:39:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:39:56 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jamie Lawrence Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000313193955.A33859@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000304233500.A15262@thirdage.com> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.2.20000306003715.041255e0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.20000313145538.03102620@mail.thirdage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000313145538.03102620@mail.thirdage.com>; from jal@ThirdAge.com on Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 02:59:07PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 02:59:07PM -0800, Jamie Lawrence wrote: > At 12:41 AM 3/6/00 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >At 12:35 AM 3/5/2000 , Jamie A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > >This from a serious anarchist who wants to see private roads everywhere. > > > >If you are either an anarchist or a Libertarian, you would most likely > >NOT like to see what would happen if this were so. Instead of ELECTED > >government, you would be subject to the tyranny of private empires and > >fiefdoms, which are far worse. In almost every case where vital > >infrastructure is privatized, the new boss isn't the same as the old > >boss -- he's dramatically worse. > > > Very late response... and extremely off topic, even for -chat. > > You seem to be extremely confused about the definition of anarchism > and {l,L}ibertarianism. I'm not going to educate you on -chat, though. > > > >If everyone payed a private entity to get to work, we'd see a saner > > >commute schedule. > > > >You'd be stopping every mile to pay a troll. > > Such unfortunate phrasing... But no, anyone who annoyed customers > that much would find themselves routed around. No, that's the reason private roads would not work. It is too capital intensive for multiple entities to build parallel roads from A to B. Once one company would build a road, it would be absolutely foolish for someone else to spend the money to build another. In _very_ "densely populated" areas (say like LA), it might be possible multiple companies to control routes between A and B that are competitive. However, you would still need to have gov't in there preventing monopolies or price fixing; you're back where you started. The barrier to new groups entering the market is just too high. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16:41:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E4E37B6A4 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:41:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA84596; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:41:06 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. Anyone should > be able to call their product FreeBSD; This one statement alone shows that you are a complete crack-smoker and not to be taken seriously. I would appreciate it if all involved would remove my e-mail address from the cc: list on these threads. Thanks, Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16:50:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stage1.thirdage.com (stage1.thirdage.com [4.18.197.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFA837B63C for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jal@thirdage.com) Received: from rubbish (rubbish.thirdage.com [4.18.197.220]) by stage1.thirdage.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA07136; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:49:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000313164919.00d46100@mail.thirdage.com> X-Sender: jal@mail.thirdage.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:50:01 -0800 To: cjclark@home.com From: Jamie Lawrence Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000313193955.A33859@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20000313145538.03102620@mail.thirdage.com> <20000304233500.A15262@thirdage.com> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.2.20000306003715.041255e0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.20000313145538.03102620@mail.thirdage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:39 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: >No, that's the reason private roads would not work. It is too capital >intensive for multiple entities to build parallel roads from A to >B. Once one company would build a road, it would be absolutely foolish >for someone else to spend the money to build another. Like I said, this is not the sort of conversation I think belongs on -chat. If you want to continue it in private, let me know. -j To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 16:56:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0749F37B580 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C1C1D131; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:56:26 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CD8E3A.7EB4720D@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:56:26 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 1:23 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Was the Core Team consulted about this? No, not at all. Remember, > > Walnut Creek owned the trademark. It didn't need to. > > Consider that the bulk of the FreeBSD Core Team probably works > for Walnut Creek, and there is likely to be no conflict here. Of > course, Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. is doing the Right Thing by > transferring the Trademark to the FreeBSD Foundation (and it use will > be governed by the FreeBSD Core Team until then), but this fact does > not create a problem in the past when there was none at the time. From the statement that David made, the FreeBSD trademark will be controlled by the core team, it wasn't clear to me whether this was because the core team would be running the foundation or whether the core team would retain this right even when the foundation actually owned the mark. From another of your emails, it is not possible for someone to pick up the code from FreeBSD and go and create "X BSD" because BSDI own the BSD trademark. You'd either have to get them to allow you to create another *BSD mark or create an OS under a completely unrelated name. David didn't actually mention what was going to happen to the BSD mark, I'm assuming it will be kept by BSDI. I've no idea what WC/BSDI's attitude will be towards the use of the BSD mark following the merger but it would be foolish of them to allow any more spinoffs given their aim of creating more unification. > Going forward, the FreeBSD Core Team/FreeBSD Foundation will have > control over what happens with the FreeBSD trademark, and they can > determine the minimum acceptable standards to which all players will > have to adhere -- and Walnut Creek/BSD, Inc. will have to play by > those same rules, just like everyone else. > > If you can't live with that fact, I suggest you go somewhere else > and quit wasting our time. Actually, I think the whole point of Brett's argument is that he want's to live with that fact as long as the rules are fair to all parties and people actually know what they are. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 17:29:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF6E37B58D for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:29:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23031; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:29:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:29:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000313161118.041e0d10@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Perhaps the problem is with the word "package." There are two senses > of the word here: "package" in the sense of the software product > itself, and "package" in the sense of the gzipped build that is posted > on the FreeBSD server. And of course when we're talking about FreeBSD distribution sets we don't mean the first. *sheesh* -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 17:46:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2CE37BF45 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03661; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:41:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003140141.RAA03661@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:18:05 MST." <4.2.2.20000313140446.041df3d0@localhost> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:41:10 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 01:38 PM 3/13/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Consider that the bulk of the FreeBSD Core Team probably works for Walnut Creek, and there is likely to be no conflict here. > >Yes, there is a BIG conflict. Many key authors of FreeBSD, past and present, made >their contributions with the understanding that they were not working for the >benefit of one company -- Walnut Creek -- but rather for the good of anyone >who wanted to use the code. I'm not reading 95% of this discussion, but since this was at the top it caught my eye. Currently, 2 out of 16 core members have income from ("work for") Walnut Creek CDROM. Of those 2, only one (Jordan) is an employee. This is hardly the "bulk of the FreeBSD Core Team". The trademark is and always has been in our control, even though Walnut Creek CDROM is the trademark holder. The only reason why WC CDROM has the trademark in the first place was because they were the only legal entity that we trusted to hold it until we had our own legal entity to transfer it to. It sure would be nice if all of this wild speculation would stop since it is so far from reality that it only serves to confuse people with all of the disinformation. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 18:20:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA7B37B614 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.44.213]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FRE00ANB3UDIQ@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:20:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00960; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:36:15 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:36:15 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-reply-to: To: Brad Knowles Cc: Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Since you asked (which you didn't, but offered us the chance), I would like to see a calm and mature approach, which we are seeing from the principals. I expect BSD, Inc. to be the first credible alternative to proprietary versions of Unix and the first viable alternative for manufacturers to off load their separate development. Linux hasn't made it and I don't really think it will. I think BSD will be taken far more seriously by the larger manufacturers than Linux ever will. That suggests long, productive careers for all of us. I suspect we'll be seeing some rather quiet announcements, most likely from Sun, but, potentially IBM and Compaq throwing their support behind the effort. Frankly, I think this merger is one of the shrewdest moves I've seen during the entire Linux hysteria. But what I most would like to see from this merger, is someone with enough authority to calm Brett down;) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 20:11:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81FCC37B6B9 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:11:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6D33413; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:11:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:11:12 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: David Greenman Cc: Brett Glass , Brad Knowles , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <200003140141.RAA03661@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org AMEN! On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, David Greenman wrote: > It sure would be nice if all of this wild speculation would stop since it > is so far from reality that it only serves to confuse people with all of the > disinformation. > > -DG > > David Greenman > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 13 22:32: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E4037B846 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:31:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtkc4.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.209.132]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03739; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA04306; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:36:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000313223601G.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:36:01 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 38 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Eric Wayte Subject: What result would *you* like from the merger? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:27:45 -0500 (EST) > Everyone is talking about the merger, so I thought I'd start a new thread: > > What would you like to see from the merger? > > > I would like to see two things - native support of Oracle and VMWare. > Oracle has partnered with Red Hat - why not partner with BSDI? BSDI is > proably more profitable and would be another IPO for Oracle to buy into. > The only thing I'd give a rats patootie about VMWare is if it were useful as a development aid for /usr/src/sys/boot hacking :-) Oracle is less useful for my purposes but some people seem to want it. Here's my wishlist of things I'd like to see for FreeBSD resulting from the merger: 1. PowerPC support 2. Sparc support 3. eBSD (romfs specifically) 4. improved SMP support > VMWare could be brought in to the BSD fold as well. How? Offer to help > them get VMWare working natively under BSD and then bundle it, just like > Mandrake Linux does with their PowerPack. Yawn :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 1: 0:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9266337B710 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:00:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA67518; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:00:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:00:31 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003140900.KAA67518@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8ajqrk$i13$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > At 2:26 PM -0700 2000/3/13, Brett Glass wrote: > > The same should be true for FreeBSD. Any standard which required the contents > > of the CDs to be the same would hurt immensely. > > The contents of all the CDs don't have to be the same -- you just > have to include the entire first CD-ROM. That's all. What's so hard > about that? Just a small sidenote. Wouldn't it make much more sense to require that the output of a ``make release'' be included? (I mean the contents of the ISO images which are result of a ``make release'', or maybe just the first of them.) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 1: 1:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CCE37B71B for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:01:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD99CCD80; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:01:49 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38CD8E3A.7EB4720D@originative.co.uk> References: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <38CD8E3A.7EB4720D@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:41:33 +0100 To: Paul Richards From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Brett Glass , Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 AM +0000 2000/3/14, Paul Richards wrote: > Actually, I think the whole point of Brett's argument is that he want's > to live with that fact as long as the rules are fair to all parties and > people actually know what they are. Insofar as that one statement goes, I agree. But if so, then Brett really should stop bitching about rules that haven't been published yet and the "level playing field" that can't possibly have previously existed, because up until now Walnut Creek has been the FreeBSD trademark holder, and legally they have had the power to decide what could be done with it. It's like bitching that the guys over at Red Hat won't let you ship a cut-down version of Red Hat Linux, with your own custom stuff added, and then call the result "Red Hat Linux". Just plain stupid, IMO. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 1: 2: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE3237B5DF for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:02:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF97CD1B; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:01:54 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000313223601G.jhix@mindspring.com> References: <20000313223601G.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:44:36 +0100 To: W Gerald Hicks , ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:36 PM -0800 2000/3/13, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > 1. PowerPC support Done. Well, on the way -- Jordan mentioned this at the NLFUG meeting. > 2. Sparc support Ditto. > 3. eBSD (romfs specifically) I'm not sure I fully understand this one. Could you explain? > 4. improved SMP support According to what I heard from Jordan, this is one of the things they're most looking forward to incorporating from BSD/OS. Anything else? ;-) Seriously, once people calm down and let the details of the plans start coming out, I think most people are going to be very, very happy with the results. Well, at least most members of the FreeBSD community and probably most of the larger BSD community -- I'm not so sure that any members of the Linux community will be happy about it. ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 3:26:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF75E37B71C for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:26:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wigstah@akitanet.co.uk) Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by elwood.akitanet.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA67054; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:34:53 GMT Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:17:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Robinson To: Jay Nelson Cc: Brad Knowles , Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Jay Nelson wrote: > Since you asked (which you didn't, but offered us the chance), I would > like to see a calm and mature approach, which we are seeing from the > principals. Indeed. I think my inbox has undergone an attack in recent days. One of the reasons I'm happy to be part of the FreeBSD community (I don't contribute code, but I do contribute advocacy), is that it is nothing like the Linux community. Except recently there's been that slight whiff of amateur paranoia in the air which has made it all a little uncomfortable. I vote everybody calms down and just plays along - who the hell bought the CD's anyway? :) (I'm joking of course)... > I expect BSD, Inc. to be the first credible alternative to proprietary > versions of Unix and the first viable alternative for manufacturers to 'expect'? I thought it already was. There is a lot of movement behind Linux because it is easy to pull off your own distribution (take Redhat, do a sed 's/Redhat Linux/Super Linux/g' across the source, stick it on a few FTP servers, and hey! Instant IPO! Because of this, there are commercial pressures pushing Linux along nicely. I'm glad BSD isn't like that. > off load their separate development. Linux hasn't made it and I don't > really think it will. I think BSD will be taken far more seriously > by the larger manufacturers than Linux ever will. That suggests long, > productive careers for all of us. I can argue with you as to whether 'Linux hasn't made it', because as much as it hurts to say it, it has. There are certainly more Linux boxes out there then there are FreeBSD boxes, but that's a marketing issue. And although you may be right in regard to companies putting their weight behind BSD in the future, if that means we end up with anything like the 'Linux phenomenon' as far as I'm concerned they can shove off and keep their money. Of course, I'm just a user who doesn't get a say as to who puts money behind what. > I suspect we'll be seeing some rather quiet announcements, most likely > from Sun, but, potentially IBM and Compaq throwing their support > behind the effort. Frankly, I think this merger is one of the > shrewdest moves I've seen during the entire Linux hysteria. IBM are already making *very* small murmours, but there is already support from a few reasonable commercial players in terms of porting their apps over (Zeus springs to mind), and I'm sure IBM and Sun will start putting resources into BSD, as will Compaq, but only because they hate the Redhat guys. :) What I would say though is that if nobody uses an OS, nobody will develop for it (seen any announcements from Sun on their Plan 9 efforts recently?), and this can stifle things. As a market share, FreeBSD is a lot smaller than Linux, which is a big factor when the marketing guys are helping with the resourcing.... > But what I most would like to see from this merger, is someone with > enough authority to calm Brett down;) Hahaha... -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 3:56:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF03F37B6CC for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:56:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCED12438; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:56:24 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:54:51 +0100 To: Paul Robinson , Jay Nelson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Cc: Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:17 PM +0000 2000/3/14, Paul Robinson wrote: > I can argue with you as to whether 'Linux hasn't made it', because as much > as it hurts to say it, it has. There are certainly more Linux boxes out > there then there are FreeBSD boxes, but that's a marketing issue. Not that much more. > What I would say though is that if nobody uses an OS, nobody will develop > for it (seen any announcements from Sun on their Plan 9 efforts > recently?), and this can stifle things. As a market share, FreeBSD is > a lot smaller than Linux, which is a big factor when the marketing guys > are helping with the resourcing.... FreeBSD isn't that much smaller than Linux. It's just been a lot quieter so far. The estimates that Jordan mentioned at the NLFUG meeting are that there are about 10 million Linux users worldwide (which he quoted from some Linux source), but that there are about two million FreeBSD users world-wide. And this doesn't count the number of customers that use ftp.{cdrom|freesoftware}.com, Hotmail, Yahoo!, Google, etc... or that have embedded FreeBSD products such as the IBM/Whistle InterJet/InterJet II, GnatBox, Stallion ePipe, NetWolves FoxBox, and this doesn't *begin* to count the number of people who are using embedded BSD (non-FreeBSD) products such as the Ascend Pipeline series of Ethernet/ISDN routers or other products using the BSDI Embedded Systems Technology (see ). -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 5:43:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBD837B6A8 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:43:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 447CF755D; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCBE1D90; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:44:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:44:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eric Wayte Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Eric Wayte wrote: :Everyone is talking about the merger, so I thought I'd start a new thread: : :What would you like to see from the merger? Enn Eff Ess. BSD/OS has working client and server locking that works, or at least, that's what I hear. I'm looking at roughly 20k for an Origin200 to build a file server on. I could do it with FreeBSD for a quarter of this if I could count on NFS. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 5:51:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8944437B777 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:51:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e2EEDLR16845; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:13:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:13:21 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Message-ID: <20000314061321.C14789@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:44:24AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jamie Bowden [000314 06:06] wrote: > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Eric Wayte wrote: > > :Everyone is talking about the merger, so I thought I'd start a new thread: > : > :What would you like to see from the merger? > > Enn Eff Ess. BSD/OS has working client and server locking that works, or > at least, that's what I hear. I'm looking at roughly 20k for an Origin200 > to build a file server on. I could do it with FreeBSD for a quarter of > this if I could count on NFS. Please if anything, go with Sun. IRIX nfs is nice, but not nearly as good as sun's implementation. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 6:21:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC2F37B7B5 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA33963; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:55:17 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:55:17 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000313235517.A33142@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Brad Knowles on Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:38:58PM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad, On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:38:58PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > Speaking as the FreeBSD Release Engineer, and as a member of the > FreeBSD Core Team, I suspect that Jordan's statement is pretty much > final. Anybody who wants to ship something with the FreeBSD > trademark associated with it will need to include at the very least > the same four standard ISO images that he produces and makes > available for anyone who wants to download them and burn them with a > writer. A small point. To the best of my knowledge, 3 of the 4 ISO images are not made available. The first one is. Discs 2 thru 4 are not -- they are part of the Walnut Creek value add. If you want 'em, you've got to pay for 'em. And to the wider point -- FreeBSD isn't an ISO image. I actually wouldn't mind seeing a hard and fast definition of what FreeBSD is. Is it the contents of /usr/src/ (and the associated CVS repository?). If so, that means that the ports tree and the docs are "third party addons". Which doesn't sound quite right -- then again, the ports tree is certainly not a core part of the OS, and neither (with my Doc. Proj. Manager hat on) is /usr/doc. Certainly, if someone were to do # cd /usr/src/release && make NODOC=YES NOPORTS=YES release and try and sell the resulting CDs, I think they'd have every right to call the result FreeBSD. I also think that if someone were to do the above, and (f'rinstance) offered a different installer (by way of 2 different kern and mfsroot floppy images) they'd also be completely within their rights to call the result FreeBSD. If someone were to sell a binary only version, where the binaries had been compiled with Tendra instead of gcc, that's also FreeBSD. Before you can start talking about whether can call something FreeBSD, you need to have a good grasp of what FreeBSD is in the first place. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 6:51:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4D237B745; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9491D131; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:51:02 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CE51D6.CC129D96@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:51:02 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <20000313235517.A33142@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I trimmed the CC list, we should all start doing that. Nik Clayton wrote: > > Brad, > > On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:38:58PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Speaking as the FreeBSD Release Engineer, and as a member of the > > FreeBSD Core Team, I suspect that Jordan's statement is pretty much > > final. Anybody who wants to ship something with the FreeBSD > > trademark associated with it will need to include at the very least > > the same four standard ISO images that he produces and makes > > available for anyone who wants to download them and burn them with a > > writer. > > A small point. To the best of my knowledge, 3 of the 4 ISO images > are not made available. It's also worth pointing out that, unless I've missed a change to the contrary, the ISO images are copyrighted by WC and so you cannot take them and do your own distribution with them. > The first one is. Discs 2 thru 4 are not -- they are part of the Walnut > Creek value add. If you want 'em, you've got to pay for 'em. > > And to the wider point -- FreeBSD isn't an ISO image. I actually > wouldn't mind seeing a hard and fast definition of what FreeBSD is. That's basically what all this comes down to and I think core should get involved with the project members and come to some agreement on this matter so that everyone knows where they stand. > Is it the contents of /usr/src/ (and the associated CVS repository?). > > If so, that means that the ports tree and the docs are "third party > addons". Which doesn't sound quite right -- then again, the ports tree > is certainly not a core part of the OS, and neither (with my Doc. Proj. > Manager hat on) is /usr/doc. > > Certainly, if someone were to do > > # cd /usr/src/release && make NODOC=YES NOPORTS=YES release > > and try and sell the resulting CDs, I think they'd have every right to > call the result FreeBSD. > > I also think that if someone were to do the above, and (f'rinstance) > offered a different installer (by way of 2 different kern and mfsroot > floppy images) they'd also be completely within their rights to call the > result FreeBSD. > > If someone were to sell a binary only version, where the binaries had > been compiled with Tendra instead of gcc, that's also FreeBSD. I agree with all those definations, to be honest it would be totally ludicrous to call them anything but FreeBSD. Do we really want a situation where a distributor has to call his product FooOS because they decided to leave out the docs to save space? Personally, I think all the above should be allowed as long as they are clearly marked e.g. I see nothing wrong with a "FreeBSD Tendra 1.0" release. FreeBSD should be used to refer to the project and distributions should be named distinctly but be allowed to use FreeBSD as part of their name. > Before you can start talking about whether can call something FreeBSD, > you need to have a good grasp of what FreeBSD is in the first place. Absolutely. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 6:59:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A81437B851 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2EExSd27258; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:59:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:59:28 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jamie Bowden , Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: <20000314061321.C14789@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org irix nfs interoperability kinda sucks actually. the problems I had btwn linux and irix, irix and freebsd, sun and irix, oh man, not fun. Sun tends to work with most things. (believe it or not, I've had pretty reliable performance from freebsd's nfs *shrug*) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Jamie Bowden [000314 06:06] wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Eric Wayte wrote: > > > > :Everyone is talking about the merger, so I thought I'd start a new thread: > > : > > :What would you like to see from the merger? > > > > Enn Eff Ess. BSD/OS has working client and server locking that works, or > > at least, that's what I hear. I'm looking at roughly 20k for an Origin200 > > to build a file server on. I could do it with FreeBSD for a quarter of > > this if I could count on NFS. > > Please if anything, go with Sun. IRIX nfs is nice, but not nearly as > good as sun's implementation. > > -Alfred > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 7: 5:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E7B37B63A; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12Usse-000Ahs-00; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:05:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:05:08 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Paul Richards Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000314170508.A40993@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <20000313235517.A33142@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <38CE51D6.CC129D96@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38CE51D6.CC129D96@originative.co.uk> Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue 2000-03-14 (14:51), Paul Richards wrote: > It's also worth pointing out that, unless I've missed a change to the > contrary, the ISO images are copyrighted by WC and so you cannot take > them and do your own distribution with them. That's 'compilation copyright'. You can take the contents, due to their license, and make your own distribution from them, however. You just can't copy the whole thing verbatim, or just remove the bits you want and add your own bits, and expect to sell it (because then you're abusing Walnut Creek's compilation resources). You certainly can't restrict FreeBSD distributors to not claim compilation copyright. At least, that's how it has been explained to me, and mostly verified by a (South Africa) lawyer. You probably could get permission for the most part to do bits of that, or you could just use 'make release' like everyone else. I think 'make release' is easier, especially if you're making "FreeBSD Tendra 1.0". Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 7:28:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C277437C116 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:28:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 47A9C755B; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450941D90; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:28:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:28:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: <20000314061321.C14789@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :* Jamie Bowden [000314 06:06] wrote: :> On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Eric Wayte wrote: :> :> :Everyone is talking about the merger, so I thought I'd start a new thread: :> : :> :What would you like to see from the merger? :> :> Enn Eff Ess. BSD/OS has working client and server locking that works, or :> at least, that's what I hear. I'm looking at roughly 20k for an Origin200 :> to build a file server on. I could do it with FreeBSD for a quarter of :> this if I could count on NFS. : :Please if anything, go with Sun. IRIX nfs is nice, but not nearly as :good as sun's implementation. We're an SGI shop primarily on the Unix side. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 10: 6:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f272.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4A6E37B6FE for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 44771 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 2000 18:06:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20000314180652.44770.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.220.228.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:06:51 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.220.228.2] From: "John Daniels" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and ... Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:06:51 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi: On Tuesday March 14th, Nik Clayton wrote: >And to the wider point -- FreeBSD isn't an ISO image. I actually wouldn't >mind seeing a hard and fast definition of what FreeBSD is. > ... clipping ... >Before you can start talking about whether can call something >FreeBSD, you >need to have a good grasp of what FreeBSD is in the >first place. Nik makes a point that kind of picks up from an earlier discussion. It may be that *several* trademarks should be in place to protect the FreeBSD project. This would be somewhat interesting vis-a-vis Linux in that Linux has one Trademark for the kernel and many implementations of an OS ("Distros") whereas FreeBSD would have several Trademarks to bring a structure to the OS (while still preserving innovation) and one "true" OS. An associated benefit to this "structuring" would be that the FreeBSD name gets much wider usage and publicity. Possible trademarks, for example: FreeBSD-Kernel, FreeBSD-OS (to include kernel+), FreeBSD-SecureOS, FreeBSD-Ports, etc. With the above Trademark structure, a company would have to acknowledge the Trademark if using a part of FreeBSD in it's entirety as a *productized component* of their own product. For example, if using the FreeBSD kernel, whereas otherwise they could assume wholesale product-level pieces without attribution. Without such a structure, companies that found it advantageous could still claim an association with FreeBSD ("based on the FreeBSD(tm) kernel") but others would simply make an acknowledgement in their code with no outward sign that FreeBSD was used. This would not prevent companies from using the code base without attribution. Apple, for example, uses the Mach kernel and pieces of the rest of the OS. As far as I know, they don't use ports or the full security package. This kind of partial use of code would not require outward acknowledgement of the FreeBSD Trademark(s). Although they don't have to, Apple, of course, still finds it advantageous to acknowledge it's use of FreeBSD code! In sum, under the BSD license, FreeBSD cannot protect the code, but should be able to protect product level implementations that rely on the FreeBSD effort. If someone wants to incorporate the kernel in a product, relying not only on that instance of code but also on the existance of the FreeBSD project for future upgrades, they should make an outward attribution. Now, using only the kernel should not obligate a company to call thier product "FreeBSD," and FreeBSD would not want them to, since "FreeBSD" refers to the project and the efforts of the group as a whole, the kernel is just a part of that, so there should be some other trademark that can (must!) be refered to. John On Monday, March 13th, I wrote: >Clearly, the terms on the use of the trademark should not be overly >restrictive, but at the same time, a line does have to be drawn: >there >must be a point defined where one should have the right to call something >FreeBSD. > >So far, the argument has been: how little can I include and still >have the > right to call my distro "FreeBSD." Perhaps we can >illuminate the issue >somewhat if we consider it from the opposite >direction? At what point >should a firm have the *obligation* to >attribute it's product to the >FreeBSD Foundation? It would seem >that this would also have to be >addressed since the Trademark holder >is obligated to protect it's >Trademark. > >If I use code snippits, sections or modules, I'm probably OK -- I >can (and >must) atribute what I have used within the code. This is >standard BSD, >and end-users do not have to know that they are using >a system with BSD >code. > >But what if XYZ company uses the kernel as a whole? Should that >require >more noticeable recognition or attribution? What if I use >everything but >ports? what if I use an exact copy of the first CD? >etc. If the Trademark >pertains to physical CD's only, then what if >a company includes >_everything_ but rearranges the contents. Can >(should?) they be allowed to sell this as "XYZ OS," without any >outward >attribution to FreeBSD? > >Whatever "FreeBSD" is defined as, shouldn't that be the same if we >are >coming from the lower bounds, as well as from the upper? > >I don't know the answer. Maybe there needs to be several Trademarks >(kernel, distro, security, ports, etc.) I would think that such >policy >issues will become clearer in the next few weeks and that >they may even >change somewhat over time. To which Brad Knowles and Responded soon after: ****************** Brad Knowles: >The beauty of the BSD license is that you can take any piece of code you >want, use it any way you want, and you can call it anything you want >(except where this might infringe on other established trademarks), and as >I recall the latest versions of the BSD license don't even require that you >acknowledge the copyright holders in >your advertisements -- only in the >place(s) where you put your own trademark/copyright notices. > >The key here is that if you want to take advantage of the "FreeBSD" brand, >you've got a much higher standard that you will be held to, because now >you're taking not only the code, but you're >also trying to market it with >the same brand. *************************** Paul Richards: >These requirements are a feature of the license and not of the >trademark. The FreeBSD license is very free, it requires nothing and >only prohibits claiming the work is your own. Some parts of the >system may >still have the older license that requires attribution in >advertising but I doubt that that would be enforced given that the > >newlicense does not include that clause. > >The trademark issue is an entirely different matter and has nothing >to do >with the use of the code. Trademark law exists to prevent >companies >producing copycat products with the same or similar names >and "tricking" >consumers into buying the copycat product in the >mistaken belief that it >is the "real thing". > >That is why brown fizzy drinks have to be called cola rather than >coke, it >doesn't actually stop them producing a similar product but >they must >create their own branding and not ride on the coat tails >of the coke >brand. > >The crux of the issue is whether the project considers that other >distributions of FreeBSD would be ripoffs trying to ride on the coat >tails of the FreeBSD name or wether they would be genuine members of >the >FreeBSD community. > >The concerns being raised, that seem to get lost in the noise, are >that >the FreeBSD foundation should allow the use of the FreeBSD name >if it does >not have a detrimental effect on the projec in order to >allow other >companies to become active members of the FreeBSD >community. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 10:28:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7694837B7A7 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A691D131; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:28:02 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CE84B2.1CC12D42@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:28:02 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Daniels Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and ... References: <20000314180652.44770.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Daniels wrote: > much snipped > In sum, under the BSD license, FreeBSD cannot protect the code, but should > be able to protect product level implementations that rely on the FreeBSD > effort. If someone wants to incorporate the kernel in a product, relying > not only on that instance of code but also on the existance of the FreeBSD > project for future upgrades, they should make an outward attribution. Now, > using only the kernel should not obligate a company to call thier product > "FreeBSD," and FreeBSD would not want them to, since "FreeBSD" refers to the > project and the efforts of the group as a whole, the kernel is just a part > of that, so there should be some other trademark that can (must!) be refered > to. This isn't what trademarks are all about, or even what the argument is about. There is nothing that can be done to make companies acknowledge their use of FreeBSD because that is a licensing issue and the FreeBSD license has "no strings attached" to the use of the code. People acknowledge their use of FreeBSD code if they feel they want to. The trademark prevents other people from using the term FreeBSD, it does not encourage it. If you went and trademarked the phrase "FreeBSD kernel" then nobody would be able to say that their product was based upon the FreeBSD kernel without getting permission from the trademark holder! Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 17: 9:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com (taxismtp2.alchemy.net [208.232.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C3237B80A for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:09:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@nettaxi.com) Received: from nettaxi.com (pool0534.cvx9-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.178.24]) by taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA32201 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:09:22 -0800 Message-ID: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:05:00 +0000 From: Joey Garcia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What would I like from the merger? I would like more books on FreeBSD and BSD/OS. There isn't enough books. The Complete FreeBSD book is great, but I think specialized books on FreeBSD would be great. Books that cover topics such as Installation, Security, Networking, Administration, PPP, and more. I'm sure there is enough to each of those topics to warrant their own books respectively. I've read BSDi's installation manual for BSD/OS and it's pretty complete but huge. But at least they made a great step to providing documentation. Hopefully, with BSDi's financial backing there will be more attention to manuals and books on various FreeBSD subjects. Well, that's what I want. :) Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 17:18:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208E137B742 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:18:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.45.1]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FRF00ERIVMGL1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:18:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00695; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:15:07 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:15:06 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-reply-to: To: Paul Robinson Cc: Brad Knowles , Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Paul Robinson wrote: >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Jay Nelson wrote: > >> Since you asked (which you didn't, but offered us the chance), I would [snip] >> I expect BSD, Inc. to be the first credible alternative to proprietary >> versions of Unix and the first viable alternative for manufacturers to > >'expect'? I thought it already was. There is a lot of movement behind >Linux because it is easy to pull off your own distribution (take Redhat, >do a sed 's/Redhat Linux/Super Linux/g' across the source, stick it on a >few FTP servers, and hey! Instant IPO! Because of this, there are >commercial pressures pushing Linux along nicely. I'm glad BSD isn't like >that. I am glad BSD isn't like that, too. But the truth is, up until now, there has been no incentive -- or reliable source for hardware vendors to support an alternate OS or off-load development. SCO couldn't cut it and Linux never will. However, there are some who focus on the Linux hysteria and desktop market and lose sight of the real world. If you count the number of boxed sets sold to post-pubescent IRC and Warez kiddies along with desperate M$ users looking for a magic bullet, I suppose Linux has sold more boxed sets, and will probably continue to do so. That's not the market acceptance I'm talking about, but I wish Linux all the success in the world when it comes to that market. When you have IS shops willing to put an alternate OS on $100,000+ hardware, you have _real_ acceptance. Until the announcement, the only credible independent OS vendor has been SCO which seems to have attracted little more than yawns and scorn -- and couldn't run on enterprise class hardware. That's why they're behind the Monterey project. BSD is, and has for years, been able to run on that class of hardware (ok, so a Vax is a little passe now, but you see the point.) With the merger, we have a credible organization with the combined experience, staff and support to be a player on big iron. Consider IBM, who is now making a lot of noise about Linux. They are only admittedly only "supporting" Linux. They are actually selling BSD and incorporating it in their own products. They have recently introduced the B series of machines pointed directly at the ISPs, many of whom have been using BSD for years. (The same people who were pissed at Solaris and horrified with AIX.) Do you seriously doubt IBM or Sun's interest. Sun lost a _large_ number of supporters when they abandoned SunOS for Solaris, thanks, I believe, to the law suit. I'm one of them and I still hear the older people bitch about the change. We are ones now in a position to make buying decisions on enterprise class hardware and both IBM and Sun know it. Both Sun and IBM make their money selling iron and support. They don't give a damn about the desktop. If supporting BSD means they will sell more RS/6Ks or Ultras, and they believe there is a _reliable_ business partner to whom they can offload the development, I believe they will do it (and who better than the people who made it all happen?) The manufacturers aren't making any money of their respective Unices, anyway. I think BSD, Inc., offers that stability and credibility -- far more than a wizbang new IPO with yet another Linux Distro. The Linux people are still in diapers when it comes to enterprise operating systems. BSD isn't. So far, what I've read and heard tells me that those involved in this merger have their wits about them and are behaving with enterprise level class. I like that. I think it will be interesting. (Sorry -- I'll end my rant, now;) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 17:51: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw-hk1.philips.com (gw-hk1.philips.com [202.130.151.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30B337B8B4 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lawrence.hy.cheung@philips.com) Received: from smtprelay-hk1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-hk1.philips.com with ESMTP id JAA02843 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:50:57 +0800 (HKT) (envelope-from lawrence.hy.cheung@philips.com) Received: from smtprelay-asp1.philips.com(130.147.65.5) by gw-hk1.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma002841; Wed, 15 Mar 00 09:50:57 +0800 Received: from APLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (aplms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.147.79.213]) by smtprelay-hk1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id JAA27688 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:50:56 +0800 (HKT) Received: by APLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via APAC id 0056920005185150; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:50:32 +0800 From: <"CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com> To: Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Message-ID: <0056920005185150000002L202*@MHS> Reply-To: <"CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:50:32 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 03/15/00 09:50:38" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wish the future version of FreeBSD would be enhanced in internation s= upport, such as i10n, i18n. Regards, Lawrence H.Y. Cheung Anything else? ;-) = To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 18:36:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F2B37B80F for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:36:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cweimann@server1.wallnet.com) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA24503 for FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:36:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20000314213628.B811@wallnet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:36:28 -0500 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? References: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com>; from Joey Garcia on Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:05:00PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 05:05:00PM +0000, Joey Garcia wrote: > > I've read BSDi's installation manual for BSD/OS and it's pretty complete > but huge. I love that book. Basically every question I ever had about using BSDi for an Internet server was answered in that book. I was a complete newbie to any sort of *nix ( I came from OS/2 land ) but with the aid of that book I never had to call tech support. There are so many books that don't quite solve the real problems you are having. They try to be general references but that book managed to answer all the real questions I had very specifically. If that manual becomes available in a FreeBSD flavor I'll take two. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 18:53:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437B637B5B3 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2569F34CD; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:53:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Oracle is already in the works. Jordan mentioned this at the > NLFUG meeting, and went so far as to say that he had a pre-release > beta of Oracle running on his laptop. It's basically a matter of > convincing Oracle to release the product. > Great! The mythical beast *does* exist - now to coax it out of its lair. ;-) Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 14 23:30:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2262D37B932 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:30:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtivj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.203.243]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA10521; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA16366; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:34:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: blk@skynet.be Cc: ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? In-Reply-To: References: <20000313223601G.jhix@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000314233440P.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:34:40 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 19 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:44:36 +0100 > At 10:36 PM -0800 2000/3/13, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > 3. eBSD (romfs specifically) > > I'm not sure I fully understand this one. Could you explain? > Sure, in my main line of work as an embedded developer I'm always looking for tools to help me bring FreeBSD into something I also get paid for doing :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 0: 5: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B35937BA6D for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA68897 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200003150805.AAA68897@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 1: 9:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338AC37B979 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA75373; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:09:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Jay Nelson Cc: Brad Knowles , Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 2000 10:09:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jay Nelson's message of "Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:36:15 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson writes: > But what I most would like to see from this merger, is someone with > enough authority to calm Brett down;) You mean shut him up. I don't consider him a problem, since my MUA filters out any discussion he participates in. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 1:14: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D5737B9CA for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA75402; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:13:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Joey Garcia Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? References: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 2000 10:13:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: Joey Garcia's message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:05:00 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joey Garcia writes: > I would like more books on FreeBSD and BSD/OS. So write one! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 4:12:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from horizon2.webcentral.com.au (horizon2.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA01837B944 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 04:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 26508 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2000 12:12:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.162.188) by horizon2.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 15 Mar 2000 12:12:31 -0000 Message-ID: <000801bf8e7b$3311f640$bca293cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: References: Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:13:07 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At last...my wishlist: 1.Support for my SBLive! 2.All the newest jdk releases. That wraps it up for the time being, I think. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 12:41:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF5837BD55; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:40:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA78138; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:40:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: ports@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: porteasy From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 2000 21:40:48 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [this message is cross-posted; please take care when replying] You'll never need to "cd /usr/ports" again. Sorry, no docs yet. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 13:47:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2B937BE48 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.163.125] (helo=parish.my.domain) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12VLdi-0005jS-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:47:41 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00965 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:47:13 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:47:13 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000315214713.H244@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Americans (defined as residents of the USA) frequently have problems with metric conversions. In an attempt to clarify the conversion process here are some "Useful Metric Conversions." 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone 2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds 10 cards = 1 decacards 1 millionth of a fish = 1 microfiche 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake 1 trillion pins = 1 terrapin 10 rations = 1 decoration 100 rations = 1 C-ration 10 millipedes = 1 centipede 3 1/3 tridents = 1 decadent 2 monograms = 1 diagram 8 nickels = 2 paradigms 2 wharves = 1 paradox I hope this proves a useful tool. -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 15:27:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980D037BB6B for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:27:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-89.ocis.net [209.52.173.221]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA31496; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:21:50 -0800 Message-Id: <200003152321.PAA31496@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: Mark Ovens , chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:21:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com In-reply-to: <20000315214713.H244@parish> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms The rest are very useful, but isn't this supposed to be: 4 nickels = 2 paradigms ?? I swear my slide rule says so. Let me fish it out... Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 16: 7: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E66E37BB36 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e2G0T9E16129; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:29:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:29:09 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: porteasy Message-ID: <20000315162908.N14789@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 09:40:48PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000315 16:24] wrote: > [this message is cross-posted; please take care when replying] > > > > You'll never need to "cd /usr/ports" again. Wow, that's totally awesome, also some of most pleasant to read perl code I've seen. So when are you going to import it? :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 16:50:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CA637BF7D for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04322; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:47:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000315174659.03f88150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:47:47 -0700 To: fcash@bigfoot.com, Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: <200003152321.PAA31496@ocis.ocis.net> References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:21 PM 3/15/2000 , Freddie Cash wrote: > > > > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms > >The rest are very useful, but isn't this supposed to be: > 4 nickels = 2 paradigms ?? In that case, could a piece of women's clothing that cost 4 nickels be a paradigm shift? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 16:53: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB9B37BE78 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04375; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:52:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:50:28 -0700 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:41 PM 3/13/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. Anyone should > > be able to call their product FreeBSD; > > This one statement alone shows that you are a complete >crack-smoker and not to be taken seriously. I see. In that case, I take it that you believe that only Walnut Creek should be able to use the name "FreeBSD" in a product name? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 16:53:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F02B37B9B5 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:53:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04378; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:52:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:52:51 -0700 To: Paul Richards , Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38CD8E3A.7EB4720D@originative.co.uk> References: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:56 PM 3/13/2000 , Paul Richards wrote: >I've no idea what WC/BSDI's attitude will be towards the use of the BSD >mark following the merger but it would be foolish of them to allow any >more spinoffs given their aim of creating more unification. The concern is that they will allow no further use of the term "BSD" because they don't want competition. And could claim that it's being done in the name of "unification." >Actually, I think the whole point of Brett's argument is that he want's >to live with that fact as long as the rules are fair to all parties and >people actually know what they are. Exactly! --Bret To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 17: 0:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C2537BB57; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04453; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:00:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000315175710.03efb510@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:00:22 -0700 To: Nik Clayton , Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000313235517.A33142@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:55 PM 3/13/2000 , Nik Clayton wrote: >Before you can start talking about whether can call something FreeBSD, >you need to have a good grasp of what FreeBSD is in the first place. Agree! Also, it is not a given that one must include EVERY BIT of FreeBSD in a product to use the name FreeBSD in its name. After all, one might want to ship a proper subset (e.g. i386 only) and allow the rest to be gotten via the Net (for the sake of efficiency) if the user desires it. After all, this is the age of the Internet; hybrid delivery models should be possible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 17: 6:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0104537BB33 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:06:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04506; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:06:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000315180605.03ff6450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:06:28 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jay Nelson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? Cc: Brad Knowles , Eric Wayte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:09 AM 3/15/2000 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Jay Nelson writes: > > But what I most would like to see from this merger, is someone with > > enough authority to calm Brett down;) > >You mean shut him up. > >I don't consider him a problem, since my MUA filters out any >discussion he participates in. Now there's REAL open-mindedness. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 17:11: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D25FA37BA1C for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 10257 invoked by uid 211); 16 Mar 2000 01:08:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 16 Mar 2000 01:08:32 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:38:32 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. Anyone should > > > be able to call their product FreeBSD; > > > > This one statement alone shows that you are a complete > >crack-smoker and not to be taken seriously. > > I see. In that case, I take it that you believe that only Walnut Creek > should be able to use the name "FreeBSD" in a product name? As an ordinary user not at all associated with FreeBSD development, I find both positions uncomfortable. Obviously not anyone should be allowed to use the FreeBSD trademark: it would then cease to have value as a trademark. If Brett insists that anyone should unconditionally be allowed to use it, one can only suspect his motives. On the other hand, it is a legitimate question whether someone who adds on a new installer, or some graphical tools for system administration, or whatever, but leaves the basic OS unchanged, can continue to distribute it under the name FreeBSD. I believe that they should be allowed to do so, if their product satisfies some compatibility conditions which should be clearly laid out. Apparently some core members who've been contributing on this thread agree with the above; others think that such packagers can call their product SomethingelseBSD and leave FreeBSD for only WC/BSDI. Perhaps others would not even allow the BSD name to be used. Personally I think restricting the FreeBSD name excessively may be as dangerous as letting it loose altogether; and I also think that if FreeBSD continues to grow, this question will arise sooner rather than later. Just my 2p. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 18:20:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigcity.net (mail.bigcity.net [209.0.205.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D913B37BC0C for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:20:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josh@bigcity.net) Received: from lurker [209.0.207.78] by bigcity.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id A80D2C3F013A; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:33:49 -0600 Message-ID: <003401bf8eee$bb4fe800$0201010a@diginix.net> From: "Josh" To: Subject: Defualt FTPd stalls upon connect. Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:24:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01BF8EBC.700D9F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BF8EBC.700D9F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The ftpd that is installed by default just hangs when I connect to it. = I was wondering if anybody else has had this problem, and I know it isnt = just my computer because it has happened to 3 other computers I did = install via FTP. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BF8EBC.700D9F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The ftpd that is installed by default just hangs = when I=20 connect to it.  I was wondering if anybody else has had this = problem, and I=20 know it isnt just my computer because it has happened to 3 other = computers I did=20 install via FTP. 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BF8EBC.700D9F40-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 18:56: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB45C37BC06 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:55:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 10394 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2000 02:55:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 Mar 2000 02:55:34 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:25:34 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Josh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Defualt FTPd stalls upon connect. In-Reply-To: <003401bf8eee$bb4fe800$0201010a@diginix.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The ftpd that is installed by default just hangs when I > connect to it. I was wondering if anybody else has had this > problem, and I know it isnt just my computer because it has > happened to 3 other computers I did install via FTP. I know someone who complained about this on his new install of Red Hat 6.0 -- his ftp client couldn't connect to our FreeBSD machine. But after he upgraded or reconfigured something on his machine (I'm not sure what) it worked fine. Nobody else reported a problem, and we don't have a problem with our linux machines (not even Red Hat 6.0). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 19: 9:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5587137BB40 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:09:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 4038 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2000 03:09:08 -0000 Received: from du139.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.139) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 2000 03:09:08 -0000 Message-ID: <38D05023.2AA54CD7@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:08:19 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone 1 million microphones = 1 phone, since 1 microphone = 1e-6 phone. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 20:29:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CD837B926 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06843; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:29:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:29:10 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:41 PM 3/13/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. Anyone should > > > be able to call their product FreeBSD; > > > > This one statement alone shows that you are a complete > >crack-smoker and not to be taken seriously. > > I see. In that case, I take it that you believe that only Walnut Creek > should be able to use the name "FreeBSD" in a product name? A) That's not at all what I said, and the fact that you have willingly and repeatedly misrepresented my argument is just more proof of my premise (that you are a crack head, and not to be taken seriously), as well as drawing your motives even further into question. B) I have made my position plain in several lengthy e-mails, which I will not represent here. Suffice it to say that I believe the trademark owning entity should be extremely discriminating in granting licenses to use the name, but that such licenses should be granted when the product being marketed will add value to the brand. Doug -- "While the future's there for anyone to change, still you know it seems, it would be easier sometimes to change the past" - Jackson Browne, "Fountain of Sorrow" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 21:52: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C952D37B88B for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.235.226] (dialup225.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.19.225]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCE6CC0B; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:52:02 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:32:03 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Paul Richards From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:52 PM -0700 2000/3/15, Brett Glass wrote: > The concern is that they will allow no further use of the term "BSD" > because they don't want competition. And could claim that it's being done > in the name of "unification." I have no reason to suspect this, but if you do, then this is a good time to bring it up. However, you should not be basing statements or arguments on an assumption like this, which has not yet proven to be either false or true. You simply don't know whether or not you have a leg to stand on. In fact, I believe that they will continue to allow people to use "BSD" without undue restraint, because any OS that is substantially derived from the BSD base has a right to be called "SomethingBSD" or "BSD Something" or otherwise have "BSD" somewhere in it's name. However, again you would probably get into trouble if you tried to call it just "BSD", because then you would be infringing on their trademark. If you stick to just the things you know as fact, or you voice the concerns that you have without wildly extrapolating an entirely new universe based on those (perhaps unstated) concerns, then you shouldn't have any problems from me. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 21:52:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D1037B83D; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:52:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.235.226] (dialup225.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.19.225]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C516CB50; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:52:09 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000315175710.03efb510@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315175710.03efb510@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:38:18 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Nik Clayton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:00 PM -0700 2000/3/15, Brett Glass wrote: > Agree! Also, it is not a given that one must include EVERY BIT of FreeBSD in > a product to use the name FreeBSD in its name. That's not necessarily true. The FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation will decide whether or not to allow this kind of use of their trademark. However, until then I think we have to take the statements from Jordan as a strong indication that they will, in fact, *NOT* allow derivative subsets to be called "FreeBSD", and you must at least include the entire contents of the first CD-ROM image with any product you want to ship that would make use of this trademark. > After all, this is the age of the Internet; hybrid delivery models should > be possible. This is a decision that must be left up to the FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation. So long as you were true to the spirit of "FreeBSD" and you were shipping a product that included all the relevant parts from the first CD-ROM but just for one platform, they might be willing to let you use the trademark. But this decision will never be made so long as you waste your time and ours by kvetching about it here, instead of actually taking the next step and approaching the FreeBSD Core Team. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 21:52:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7FE37B886 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:52:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.235.226] (dialup225.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.19.225]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974DFCBA3; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:52:12 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:42:31 +0100 To: Doug Barton , Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:29 PM -0800 2000/3/15, Doug Barton wrote: > Suffice it to say that I believe the trademark owning > entity should be extremely discriminating in granting licenses to use the > name, but that such licenses should be granted when the product being > marketed will add value to the brand. Well said! Let me add that I believe that the only way licenses could be granted in this fashion would be for the FreeBSD Core Team (and later, the FreeBSD Foundation) to actually see a copy of the product in question, so that they can confirm for themselves that it does actually meet their standards. They would also have to have certain guarantees that the product as shipped would be the same product that they have approved. If you're not willing to give them a copy beforehand, then you have no right to complain about not being able to use the trademark. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 15 23: 9:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E7637BBBC for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:09:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-69.ocis.net [209.52.173.247]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18340; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:09:31 -0800 Message-Id: <200003160709.XAA18340@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: "Dr. Brain" , chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:08:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com In-reply-to: <20000315154859.A71662@toxic.magnesium.net> References: <200003152321.PAA31496@ocis.ocis.net>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:21:05PM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org D'oh, you're right. My bad. Damn slide rule just doesn't work like it used to. :) Freddie > Freddie Cash (fcash@bigfoot.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms > > > > The rest are very useful, but isn't this supposed to be: > > 4 nickels = 2 paradigms ?? > > > > I swear my slide rule says so. Let me fish it out... > > no: > > 8 * 5 = 40 > > 2 * (2 * 10) = 40 > (two pair of dimes) > > (caught me for a little bit also ) > > -- > Eric Hodel - drbrain@segment7.net - http://segment7.net > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > -- A. L. > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 1:45: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D6837C079 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:44:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:44:56 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Doug Barton" Cc: Subject: RE: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:44:55 -0800 Message-ID: <005601bf8f2c$4939f010$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 05:41 PM 3/13/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > No; the FreeBSD Project should do exactly the same thing. > Anyone should > > > be able to call their product FreeBSD; > > > > This one statement alone shows that you are a complete > >crack-smoker and not to be taken seriously. > > I see. In that case, I take it that you believe that only Walnut Creek > should be able to use the name "FreeBSD" in a product name? > > --Brett As I see it, you really have no grounds for complaint until one of two things happens: 1) You ask to call something specific 'FreeBSD' (more likely some variant, like 'Brett's FreeBSD' or 'FreeBSD Glass') and are refused. We can then evaluate whether the specific instance is fair or not. 2) You draft a set of sensible rules for the use of the trademark and their adoption is refused. We can then evaluate whether the rules you suggest are sensible or not and whether their rejection is reasonable. (For the record, all the rule fragments you have suggested so far seem to me to be unreasonable.) Until you do either of these, you will be at a permanent stalemate. Nobody is going to (nor should they) grant you blanket permission to use their trademark with no particulars at all. The only reason you have any desire to associate the FreeBSD name with your distribution is because of the immense value the name has. This value is a direct result of the fact that nobody can slap together any ratbag assortment of pieces and call it 'FreeBSD'. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 1:47:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw-hk1.philips.com (gw-hk1.philips.com [202.130.151.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C9E37BD45 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lawrence.hy.cheung@philips.com) Received: from smtprelay-hk1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-hk1.philips.com with ESMTP id RAA04691 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:47:26 +0800 (HKT) (envelope-from lawrence.hy.cheung@philips.com) Received: from smtprelay-asp1.philips.com(130.147.65.5) by gw-hk1.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma004689; Thu, 16 Mar 00 17:47:26 +0800 Received: from APLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (aplms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.147.79.213]) by smtprelay-hk1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id RAA11527 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:47:25 +0800 (HKT) Received: by APLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via APAC id 0056920005206266; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:47:01 +0800 From: <"CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com> To: Subject: Question about derivered version of FreeBSD Message-ID: <0056920005206266000002L262*@MHS> Reply-To: <"CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:47:01 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 03/16/00 17:46:46" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, A project called "CFE" (Chinese FreeBSD Extension) has been launched in= taiwan user group. Another similar project come out from China Mainland. AFAKI, I believe they will modify the "base system" code for Chinese su= pport in C Lib level. In the homepage of "CFE" claims that it release w= ith BSD license. My question is: A modified version of FreeBSD can be called "FreeBSD" ?= Regards, Lawrence H.Y. Cheung= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 2:46: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A0437C067 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA36557; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:46:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:46:05 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003161046.LAA36557@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8ap37f$n4b$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone Shouldn't that be a trillion? micro- == 1e-6, mega- == 1e+6, so the factor is 1e12 which whould be 1 trillion (at least in the US; in Germany it's "1 Billion", confusingly). Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 4:58: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D520C37BA7C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 04:57:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wigstah@akitanet.co.uk) Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by elwood.akitanet.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA59145; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:06:42 GMT Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:49:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Robinson To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: <38D05023.2AA54CD7@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone > > 1 million microphones = 1 phone, since 1 microphone = 1e-6 phone. ??? :) Does that not suggest then 1 million microwaves makes a wave? what do you think it will wave to? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 6: 5: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1501237BBC0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA27828 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:04:46 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000316150153.009a4100@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:04:26 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Java programming Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi! Well, I'll have to take some programming courses during my studies, and the professor decided to go with java. Anyone have some opinions about some good combo of programming environment under FBSD? Whats the status of the JDK for FBSD? (Runs under Linux emu, native version, or some different ports/addons?) any input appreciated Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 6:42: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FDC37B94D for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:42:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12VbTM-000L3n-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:42:00 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11601; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:41:59 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:41:59 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000316144159.A11555@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <005601bf8f2c$4939f010$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <005601bf8f2c$4939f010$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 01:44:55AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 01:44:55AM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > value the name has. This value is a direct result of the fact that nobody > can slap together any ratbag assortment of pieces and call it 'FreeBSD'. Very well said, David. jm -- --------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick / jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "Tears from the depth of some divine despair rise in the heart, and gather to the eyes in looking on the happy autumn fields and thinking of the days that are no more" --------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 8:49:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542EE37BC30 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:49:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19935 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:49:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:49:45 -0600 (CST) From: Kaila To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: A question about BSDI/BSDOS and the merger thing. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know if BSD/OS is dependent on the GNU development tools, or does BSDI have it's own compiler, assembler, linker, etc, etc? If so, will those tools be made available in FreeBSD versions? (commercial is okay by me, :) ) [ EMail : kaila@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~kaila/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 10: 8:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA3337BCCA for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:08:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.98.124] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tungsten.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vege-0003CR-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:07:56 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00996; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:07:53 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:07:52 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Freddie Cash Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316180752.A235@parish> References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> <200003152321.PAA31496@ocis.ocis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003152321.PAA31496@ocis.ocis.net>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:21:05PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:21:05PM -0800, Freddie Cash wrote: > > > > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms > > The rest are very useful, but isn't this supposed to be: > 4 nickels = 2 paradigms ?? > Yes, I wondered about that. I guessed that there was some joke/pun about para-dime that I didn't get. Come to think of it, it may just be raging inflation. One thing I did spot after posting is that 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone which should of course be 1 million million microphones. 1 million microphones = 1 phone.....etc. > I swear my slide rule says so. Let me fish it out... > > > > Freddie > fcash@bigfoot.com > > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your > ego at the door. > - Colonel Kernel > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 10:18:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A4237B7C4 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.98.124] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Veqa-0007OQ-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:18:12 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01241; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:18:30 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:18:29 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Freddie Cash Cc: "Dr. Brain" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316181829.B235@parish> References: <200003152321.PAA31496@ocis.ocis.net>; <20000315154859.A71662@toxic.magnesium.net> <200003160709.XAA18340@ocis.ocis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003160709.XAA18340@ocis.ocis.net>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:08:44PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:08:44PM -0800, Freddie Cash wrote: > D'oh, you're right. My bad. Damn slide rule just doesn't work like it > used to. :) > > Freddie > > > Freddie Cash (fcash@bigfoot.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms > > > > > > The rest are very useful, but isn't this supposed to be: > > > 4 nickels = 2 paradigms ?? > > > > > > I swear my slide rule says so. Let me fish it out... > > > > no: > > > > 8 * 5 = 40 > > > > 2 * (2 * 10) = 40 > > (two pair of dimes) > > Ah, that's it; para-digm - pair o' dimes. I knew I was missing a pun :) > > (caught me for a little bit also ) > > > > -- > > Eric Hodel - drbrain@segment7.net - http://segment7.net > > > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > > -- A. L. > > > > > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your > ego at the door. > - Colonel Kernel > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 10:38:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com (rhenium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A6B637BCBF for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.98.124] (helo=parish.my.domain) by ruthenium with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vewf-0003jw-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:24:30 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01281; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:22:07 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:22:07 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Paul Richards Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316182207.C235@parish> References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> <38D042B3.8B07AA4C@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38D042B3.8B07AA4C@originative.co.uk>; from paul@originative.co.uk on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > I'm not getting that one at all? > Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. > Paul. -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 11: 8:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1534437C0B2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:08:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA81358; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:06:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Mark Ovens Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> <38D042B3.8B07AA4C@originative.co.uk> <20000316182207.C235@parish> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Mar 2000 20:06:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:22:07 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > I'm not getting that one at all? > Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. 453.6 g (gram) = 1 lb (pound) Geez, isn't it scary when furriners who've spent a grand total of one week in an English-speaking country in their entire lives get jokes the natives don't? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 11:20:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F6037C153 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:20:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA57928; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:18:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:18:29 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Mark Ovens Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: <20000316182207.C235@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > > > I'm not getting that one at all? > > > > Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. 454 grams to the pound (roughly). Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 11:39:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4951137BF3A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:39:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8CF271952; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:39:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:39:25 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316143925.A393@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> <38D042B3.8B07AA4C@originative.co.uk> <20000316182207.C235@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:06:56PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:06:56PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > 453.6 g (gram) = 1 lb (pound) > > Geez, isn't it scary when furriners who've spent a grand total of one > week in an English-speaking country in their entire lives get jokes > the natives don't? You should be aware that this is a universal conversion method, not an English/American-only thing. The average American could give less than a rat's behind about English-metric conversions. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 11:44:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp152.cdrom.com [204.216.28.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB2B37C245 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:43:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00897; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:24:26 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Yarema Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD, BSD/OS, and BSDI are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. Message-ID: <20000313222426.A882@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> <38C7D332.8760088E@dppl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38C7D332.8760088E@dppl.com>; from yds@dppl.com on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:37:06AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 9 March 2000 at 11:37:06 -0500, Yarema wrote: > Brad Knowles wrote: >> >> So, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc... are perfectly safe. >> > > According to the above, yes. They were all given permission by BSDI > to use BSD in their names. And that includes FreeBSD. IIRC, these names predate BSDI's registration of the trademark. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 12: 1: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714BA37C3A6 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192B41D131; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:00:56 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D13D78.D1AA1F46@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:00:56 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor wrote: > > Hi, > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > > > > > I'm not getting that one at all? > > > > > > > Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. > > 454 grams to the pound (roughly). Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is > anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) It hadn't occured to me to read graham as gram, just didn't see that one! Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 12: 7:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934D437C0BA for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BAA6275A1; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B801C1D9B; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:08:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:08:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Taylor Cc: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Brett Taylor wrote: :454 grams to the pound (roughly). Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is :anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) How many people could tell you the english unit of mass? It's the slug for those who are wondering. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 12:31:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3DF37BF3A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (root@rac1.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.141]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01899 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac1.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA24301 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac1.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac1.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24296 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:31:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac1.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Wow, it has been a while Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:30:54 -0500 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just sitting here, thinking, wow, 4.0. I remember (like it was yesterday) the first time I installed FreeBSD. It was 2.2.2. It was so clean and smooth, unlike Linux, or Solaris, or OpenVMS. This was different. On a 486 with 16 megs of RAM, it was faster and more responsive than a dual P5/133 with 96 megs of RAM running Linux. This was different. It managed uptimes of 80 days, before I would do something dumb and crash the system (kill -9 -1 as root once:). That same Linux system wouldn't do 10 days if it had to. This was different. The 486 I used sat in a computer lab at Miami University. I had walked into the lab one day with a FreeBSD boot disk. I made a sign saying "Workstation Down" and hijacked a random PC, in the middle of the lab. It ran for 9 months before one of the schools employees found something amiss. They pulled the plug. But by then I was running FreeBSD at home. And on one production server. In fact, since that first install of 2.2.2, I have not installed any other OS, except for a simple install on a throw-away system. And even then, it never lasts more than a few hours, or long enough to see what they have changed in the past year. So what I am saying here is thank you for making such a kick ass system and I'd love to hear about other's first expereinces with FreeBSD, or BSD if you are older. In fact, I was born in December of 1979, if someone has a first BSD story that predates that, I would be endlessly amused. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 12:42: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (spirit.jaded.net [216.94.113.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B56137C1CF for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:40:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03911; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:24:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:24:33 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: porteasy Message-ID: <20000316142433.A3891@spirit.jaded.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 09:40:48PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | [this message is cross-posted; please take care when replying] | | | | You'll never need to "cd /usr/ports" again. | | Sorry, no docs yet. Cool program! Small typo though. :-) -u, --update Update relevant portiosn of ports tree ^^^ -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Waste not fresh tears on old griefs." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 12:48:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alice.pdq.net (alice.pdq.net [204.145.251.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3605637BC40 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jsmethers@pdq.net) X-AirNote: 1 Received: from 64-31-201-100.pdq.net [64.31.201.100-6] by meg.pdq.net ID 49_-1; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:48:11 -0600 Message-ID: <003e01bf8f89$28d989e0$64c91f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason" To: References: Subject: Re: Defualt FTPd stalls upon connect. Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:49:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've had this happen. It was a result of incorrect DNS server configuration. Reverse was incorrect I beliave. - Jason > > The ftpd that is installed by default just hangs when I > > connect to it. I was wondering if anybody else has had this > > problem, and I know it isnt just my computer because it has > > happened to 3 other computers I did install via FTP. > > I know someone who complained about this on his new install of > Red Hat 6.0 -- his ftp client couldn't connect to our FreeBSD > machine. But after he upgraded or reconfigured something on his > machine (I'm not sure what) it worked fine. Nobody else reported > a problem, and we don't have a problem with our linux machines > (not even Red Hat 6.0). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 13: 8:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lamb.sas.com (lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A5937BD0D for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdean@unx.sas.com) Received: from mozart (mozart.unx.sas.com [192.58.184.28]) by lamb.sas.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA19502; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from dean.pc.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA14238; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:06:21 -0500 Received: (from brdean@localhost) by dean.pc.sas.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA34527; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:06:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brdean) From: Brian Dean Message-Id: <200003162106.QAA34527@dean.pc.sas.com> Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Mar 16, 2000 08:06:56 pm" To: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:06:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone > 2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds > 10 cards = 1 decacards > 1 millionth of a fish = 1 microfiche > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > 1 trillion pins = 1 terrapin > 10 rations = 1 decoration > 100 rations = 1 C-ration > 10 millipedes = 1 centipede > 3 1/3 tridents = 1 decadent > 2 monograms = 1 diagram > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms > 2 wharves = 1 paradox > > I hope this proves a useful tool. I like this list, here's an addition: 1 noid = a solenoid. 2 solenoids = a paranoid. I can't take credit for these, these are from a co-worker. -Brian -- Brian Dean brdean@unx.sas.com SAS Institute Inc. bsd@FreeBSD.ORG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 13: 9:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp152.cdrom.com [204.216.28.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDD637C1A8 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02590 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:07:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:07:51 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316130751.I759@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <8ap37f$n4b$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200003161046.LAA36557@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003161046.LAA36557@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:46:05AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 16 March 2000 at 11:46:05 +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote in list.freebsd-chat: >> 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone > > Shouldn't that be a trillion? > micro- == 1e-6, mega- == 1e+6, so the factor is 1e12 which > whould be 1 trillion (at least in the US; in Germany it's > "1 Billion", confusingly). Well, no, a billion is 10**12 in every country except the USA. The Americans have a history of short measure. Compare: England USA Pint 20 fl oz 16 fl oz Gallon 4.5 litres 3.8 litres Ton 2240 lbs 2000 lbs Billion 10**12 10**9 Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 13:52:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A118F37B8CB for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:52:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.180.220] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tungsten.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12ViBj-00077P-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:52:16 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00657; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:52:16 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:52:16 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Taylor Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316215216.A248@parish> References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:18:29PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:18:29PM -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > > > > > I'm not getting that one at all? > > > > > > > Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. > > 454 grams to the pound (roughly). Yes, I knew that. What I don't know is what "graham crackers" are, or is it just word-play on gram? > Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is > anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) > Both the imperial and metric systems mix up mass and weight. I was always explained to me that this is because the average non-technical person can't understand the difference; buting 1kg of sugar is easy to grasp, but 9.81 Newtons? > Brett > ***************************************************** > Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > Dept of Chem and Physics * > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * > Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * > ***************************************************** > -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 13:53:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651D137BB7C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:53:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.180.220] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vi55-00065q-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:45:23 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00669; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:53:07 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:53:07 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brian Dean Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316215307.B248@parish> References: <200003162106.QAA34527@dean.pc.sas.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003162106.QAA34527@dean.pc.sas.com>; from brdean@unx.sas.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:06:21PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:06:21PM -0500, Brian Dean wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > 1 million microphones = 1 megaphone > > 2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds > > 10 cards = 1 decacards > > 1 millionth of a fish = 1 microfiche > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > 1 trillion pins = 1 terrapin > > 10 rations = 1 decoration > > 100 rations = 1 C-ration > > 10 millipedes = 1 centipede > > 3 1/3 tridents = 1 decadent > > 2 monograms = 1 diagram > > 8 nickels = 2 paradigms > > 2 wharves = 1 paradox > > > > I hope this proves a useful tool. > > I like this list, here's an addition: > > 1 noid = a solenoid. > 2 solenoids = a paranoid. > OK, but what's an android? > I can't take credit for these, these are from a co-worker. > > -Brian > -- > Brian Dean brdean@unx.sas.com > SAS Institute Inc. bsd@FreeBSD.ORG -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 13:55:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8E337C127 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:55:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id WAA14066 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:55:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA62499 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:40:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Date: 16 Mar 2000 22:40:01 +0100 Message-ID: <8arkbh$1t0q$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor wrote: > 454 grams to the pound (roughly). Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is > anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) Pound is variously defined as weight *or* mass, with slug or pound-force as the other one, respectively. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14: 0:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CDADE37C20A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:00:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 10213 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2000 22:00:39 -0000 Received: from du28.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.28) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 2000 22:00:39 -0000 Message-ID: <38D15957.56930F0C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:59:51 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD, BSD/OS, and BSDI are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> <38C7D332.8760088E@dppl.com> <20000313222426.A882@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 9 March 2000 at 11:37:06 -0500, Yarema wrote: > > Brad Knowles wrote: > >> > >> So, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc... are perfectly safe. > >> > > > > According to the above, yes. They were all given permission by BSDI > > to use BSD in their names. And that includes FreeBSD. > > IIRC, these names predate BSDI's registration of the trademark. > According to the trademark database at http://www.uspto.gov/, the BSD mark was filed on 02/27/1991, and registered on 10/12/1993, and first used on 1991.12.10. If I understand the search results correctly, UUNET initially registered the mark, but BSDI owns it now. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:17:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp152.cdrom.com [204.216.28.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D3937BCED for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03476; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:13:06 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Taylor , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316141306.C2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> <20000316215216.A248@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000316215216.A248@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 09:52:16PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 16 March 2000 at 21:52:16 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:18:29PM -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: >> >>>>> 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake >>>> >>>> I'm not getting that one at all? >>>> >>> >>> Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. >> >> 454 grams to the pound (roughly). > > Yes, I knew that. What I don't know is what "graham crackers" are, or > is it just word-play on gram? > >> Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is >> anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) >> > > Both the imperial and metric systems mix up mass and weight. I was > always explained to me that this is because the average non-technical > person can't understand the difference; buting 1kg of sugar is easy to > grasp, but 9.81 Newtons? The metric system made a distinction between weight and mass right from the beginning. The gram was the unit of mass, not weight; the unit of weight was the bary, which dropped out of use. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:19:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFB437BC7F for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA58796; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:18:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Jamie, On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: > How many people could tell you the english unit of mass? It's the > slug for those who are wondering. Not always - pound is also sometimes used as a english unit of mass. Engineers.... you probably need to know this if you work at Lockheed. (and no I won't explain that reference - go read about various Mars probes from NASA the last few years). :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:22:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A92137B589 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:22:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA58815; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:20:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:20:43 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Mark Ovens Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: <20000316215216.A248@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Mark, On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > Yes, I knew that. What I don't know is what "graham crackers" are, or > is it just word-play on gram? Graham crackers a type of cracker (I remember eating them as kids) - sort of "gingerbread" kind of flavor. > Both the imperial and metric systems mix up mass and weight. I was > always explained to me that this is because the average non-technical > person can't understand the difference; buting 1kg of sugar is easy to > grasp, but 9.81 Newtons? And yet buying 1 pound of sugar is fine, but not 1 slug (reversed roles). I'll stick w/ mass - at least I'll buy the same amount on each planet or in an accelerating frame. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:34:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6590037BF12 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id XAA19954 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:34:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 1B6428863; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:19:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:19:17 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A question about BSDI/BSDOS and the merger thing. Message-ID: <20000316211917.A60511@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kaila@o-o.org on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 10:49:45AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Kaila: > Does anyone know if BSD/OS is dependent on the GNU development tools, or > does BSDI have it's own compiler, assembler, linker, etc, etc? If so, will > those tools be made available in FreeBSD versions? (commercial is okay by me, > :) ) A long time ago they were still using gcc 1.42 (even after the rest of the world went to 2.x) and they had a separate shlibcc for compiling shared/libraries (or programs). I'm not sure whether it has changed with their switch to ELF... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:51:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66CF637BA77 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:51:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-14.ocis.net [209.52.173.46]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28180; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:50:39 -0800 Message-Id: <200003162250.OAA28180@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: Greg Lehey , chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:49:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com In-reply-to: <20000316130751.I759@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200003161046.LAA36557@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:46:05AM +0100 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org JOOC, what is the progression in the non-Americas for 10^3 - 10^12? Here in Canada, it's: 10^3 thousand 10^6 million 10^9 billion 10^12 trillion Freddie > Well, no, a billion is 10**12 in every country except the USA. The > Americans have a history of short measure. Compare: > England USA > Pint 20 fl oz 16 fl oz > Gallon 4.5 litres 3.8 litres > Ton 2240 lbs 2000 lbs > Billion 10**12 10**9 > Greg Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:58: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E2437C1CF for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12Vi9h-000JhB-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:50:09 +0000 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #7) id 12Vi9h-0006sW-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:50:09 +0000 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:50:09 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316215009.B10813@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> <38D042B3.8B07AA4C@originative.co.uk> <20000316182207.C235@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: >> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: >>> Mark Ovens wrote: >>>> 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake >>> I'm not getting that one at all? >> Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. > > 453.6 g (gram) = 1 lb (pound) > > Geez, isn't it scary when furriners who've spent a grand total of one > week in an English-speaking country in their entire lives get jokes > the natives don't? Nah, it just means we're used to a higher standard of jokes. :-) -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:58:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1632637BA53 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12ViJp-000JhX-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:00:37 +0000 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #7) id 12ViJp-0009eW-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:00:37 +0000 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:00:37 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000316220037.C10813@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard wrote: > In fact, since that first install of 2.2.2, I have not installed any > other OS, except for a simple install on a throw-away system. And > even then, it never lasts more than a few hours, or long enough to see > what they have changed in the past year. aol. I've got two Linux distributions installed on one of my computers (Debian and RedHat), but, having used them both a bit, I really don't see what all the fuss over Linux is about. (That computer is booted into FreeBSD mostly of course.) > So what I am saying here is thank you for making such a kick ass > system and I'd love to hear about other's first expereinces with > FreeBSD, or BSD if you are older. I came across FreeBSD by chance really. IIRC I was downloading some big Quake-related thing (god knows what), and found a directory called "/packages/FreeBSD" on the ftp server while I was poking around waiting for the download to finish. I read a few README files, downloaded the bin.* files (which took a while over a 28.8k modem), and, well, that was that. I guess that's the only useful thing to come of me playing Quake. :-) -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 14:58:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB6437BBAE for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:58:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04100; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:57:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAASjaiFh; Thu Mar 16 15:57:33 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12226; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:58:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003162258.PAA12226@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:58:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Mar 12, 2000 01:01:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > To get a taste of this, you should consider the situation that > > occurred when Matt Dillon sold Best Internet off, and was able > > o spend 8 hours a day hacking new code, and how a volunteer > > core was not able to keep up with reviewing it at the rate he > > was able to produce it. They throttled it back by removing, > > and then conditionalizing, his commit priviledges, something > > that wouldn't really work with several core members backing a > > commit. > > You know that's crap, Terry. Don't go there. You'll only start off a > new flamewar. And you quoting it back as "flamebait" won't... but now that you have achieved your goal of goading me into justifying my comments, let me lay it out for you: Riddle me this, Batman: What is the difference between FreeBSD -current not working because it won't compile because there is no compile-before-commit requirement and no reader-locking on CVS mirroring, and FreeBSD -current not working because Garret Wollman is making networking changes, John Dyson is making VM changes, someone is importing an entirely new SCSI system, or Matt Dillon is in the middle of making VM changes? As a consumer of the source tree, all I see are two states: 1) It works 2) It's broken Any argument about why it's in state #2 is pretty much as useful as debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. > > Finally, there's some concern about proprietary drivers not > > being available for the free version, and displacing freely > > available drivers in the free version, leaving no free > > alternatives. > > Judging from what currently publicly known, the only "proprietary > drivers" not "available for the free version" will be those written > under NDA, i.e. those drivers for which there is no free equivalent in > the first place. Remember that you opened this can of worms... OK, Gendanken experiment time: IBM has a RAID controller for which an IBM employee has written a driver, for which source code can not be released. 1) Will FreeBSD be able to utilize this driver, if it is released in binary form by IBM? In other words, are the powers that be going to allow FreeBSD to use binary only driver in a kernel build, and are they going to permit the changes to FreeBSD necessary to support this build process to be committed to FreeBSD's source tree? Assume the answer to that one is "yes". 2) Given that BSDI has binary-only drivers, the source for which can not be released because of NDA, are the binary object files, linkable to a FreeBSD kernel using the process outlined in #1, going to be made available for use in FreeBSD? 3) Given new hardware under NDA, when the hardware is no longer under NDA because the Linux camp have done our jobs for us, and gotten documentation released, or have written a driver without documentation, will the NDA driver then be released? 4) If the answer is "no", then will the powers that be permit a driver written using the Linux driver as a reference to be committed to the FreeBSD tree, as has occurred with other drivers in the past? 5) Say a division of IBM uses FreeBSD, and a driver for IBM hardware is written under NDA, and the answer to any of #1, #2, or #3 is "no". Will the division of IBM be forced to use BSDI, or not have a driver for hardware obtained from a different division of IBM, with which the first division has no political clout? As I said, there is some concern about these issues. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 15:17:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6177337BA53 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([168.176.3.52]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA388E; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:16:25 -0500 Message-ID: <38D16AFB.9682C6F8@asme.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:15:07 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A question about BSDI/BSDOS and the merger thing. References: <20000316211917.A60511@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Their release notes state they use egcs and the latest binutils plus some other tools of their own. cheers, Pedro. Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Kaila: > > Does anyone know if BSD/OS is dependent on the GNU development tools, or > > does BSDI have it's own compiler, assembler, linker, etc, etc? If so, will > > those tools be made available in FreeBSD versions? (commercial is okay by me, > > :) ) > > A long time ago they were still using gcc 1.42 (even after the rest of the > world went to 2.x) and they had a separate shlibcc for compiling > shared/libraries (or programs). > > I'm not sure whether it has changed with their switch to ELF... > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 15:42:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB94C37B98C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:42:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.177.18] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vju3-0002NL-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:42:07 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01144; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:42:29 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:42:28 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Taylor , Paul Richards , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316234228.C248@parish> References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> <20000316215216.A248@parish> <20000316141306.C2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000316141306.C2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:13:06PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:13:06PM -0800, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 16 March 2000 at 21:52:16 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:18:29PM -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > >> > >>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > >> > >>>>> 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > >>>> > >>>> I'm not getting that one at all? > >>>> > >>> > >>> Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. > >> > >> 454 grams to the pound (roughly). > > > > Yes, I knew that. What I don't know is what "graham crackers" are, or > > is it just word-play on gram? > > > >> Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is > >> anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) > >> > > > > Both the imperial and metric systems mix up mass and weight. I was > > always explained to me that this is because the average non-technical > > person can't understand the difference; buting 1kg of sugar is easy to > > grasp, but 9.81 Newtons? > > The metric system made a distinction between weight and mass right > from the beginning. The gram was the unit of mass, ^^^ is > not weight; the > unit of weight was the bary, which dropped out of use. > In the SI system the Newton is the unit of weight, weight being the force of gravity exerted on a mass. > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 15:48:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9A837BBAE for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.177.18] (helo=parish.my.domain) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vk0Z-0000GM-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:48:51 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01184; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:48:32 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:48:31 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Taylor Cc: Paul Richards , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316234831.D248@parish> References: <20000316215216.A248@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:20:43PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:20:43PM -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi Mark, > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > > > > 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > > Yes, I knew that. What I don't know is what "graham crackers" are, or > > is it just word-play on gram? > > Graham crackers a type of cracker (I remember eating them as kids) - sort > of "gingerbread" kind of flavor. > Just as I figured, it's a US food product. > > Both the imperial and metric systems mix up mass and weight. I was > > always explained to me that this is because the average non-technical > > person can't understand the difference; buting 1kg of sugar is easy to > > grasp, but 9.81 Newtons? > > And yet buying 1 pound of sugar is fine, but not 1 slug (reversed roles). > > I'll stick w/ mass - at least I'll buy the same amount on each planet or > in an accelerating frame. :-) > Which of course you, as a physicist, and me, as an engineer, understand, but does your granny understand it when she's buying potatoes at the supermarket? This is why the distinction between weight and mass is ignored in the "real" world. The old story about the merchant buying diamonds at the equator and selling the in London at a profit because they weighed more (although they still had the same mass) was used as an example of the difference when I was at school (mind you, we still had chalk and slates in those days :)) > Brett > ***************************************************** > Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > Dept of Chem and Physics * > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * > Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * > ***************************************************** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 15:49:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4015237BA9B for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:49:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.177.18] (helo=parish.my.domain) by neodymium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vk0v-0004bI-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:49:13 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01200; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:49:22 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:49:21 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Taylor Cc: Jamie Bowden , Paul Richards , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316234921.E248@parish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:18:07PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:18:07PM -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi Jamie, > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > How many people could tell you the english unit of mass? It's the > > slug for those who are wondering. > > Not always - pound is also sometimes used as a english unit of mass. > Engineers.... you probably need to know this if you work at Lockheed. > IOW there's pounds and pounds-force (or poundals). > (and no I won't explain that reference - go read about various Mars probes > from NASA the last few years). :-) > > Brett > ***************************************************** > Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > Dept of Chem and Physics * > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * > Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * > ***************************************************** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 15:50:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com (rhenium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7625E37C220 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:50:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.177.18] (helo=parish.my.domain) by rhenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Vk1u-0000Mx-00; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:50:14 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01215; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:50:12 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:50:12 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Freddie Cash Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316235012.F248@parish> References: <200003161046.LAA36557@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; <20000316130751.I759@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <200003162250.OAA28180@ocis.ocis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003162250.OAA28180@ocis.ocis.net>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:49:44PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:49:44PM -0800, Freddie Cash wrote: > JOOC, what is the progression in the non-Americas for 10^3 - > 10^12? > > Here in Canada, it's: > 10^3 thousand > 10^6 million > 10^9 billion > 10^12 trillion > So Canada subscribes to the US belief in short measure :) > Freddie > > > > Well, no, a billion is 10**12 in every country except the USA. The > > Americans have a history of short measure. Compare: > > > England USA > > > Pint 20 fl oz 16 fl oz > > Gallon 4.5 litres 3.8 litres > > Ton 2240 lbs 2000 lbs > > Billion 10**12 10**9 > > > Greg > > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your > ego at the door. > - Colonel Kernel > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16: 3:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp152.cdrom.com [204.216.28.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E762D37BD1C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04436; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:02:10 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD, BSD/OS, and BSDI are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. Message-ID: <20000316160210.G2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> <38C7D332.8760088E@dppl.com> <20000313222426.A882@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <38D15957.56930F0C@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38D15957.56930F0C@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:59:51PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 16 March 2000 at 16:59:51 -0500, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Thursday, 9 March 2000 at 11:37:06 -0500, Yarema wrote: >>> Brad Knowles wrote: >>>> >>>> So, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc... are perfectly safe. >>>> >>> >>> According to the above, yes. They were all given permission by BSDI >>> to use BSD in their names. And that includes FreeBSD. >> >> IIRC, these names predate BSDI's registration of the trademark. >> > > According to the trademark database at http://www.uspto.gov/, the > BSD mark was filed on 02/27/1991, and registered on 10/12/1993, and > first used on 1991.12.10. If I understand the search results > correctly, UUNET initially registered the mark, but BSDI owns it > now. Right, others have told me that too. Obviously I didn't recall correctly :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16:17:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2408437BA93 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:17:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06284; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:16:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAg5aabm; Thu Mar 16 17:16:44 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18542; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:17:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003170017.RAA18542@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:17:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: paul@originative.co.uk (Paul Richards), Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000312154517.04127580@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 12, 2000 04:01:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >It's interesting to draw the analogy with Linux and UNIX. Almost > >everything that's derived from Linux is called Linux, which creates a > >large installed base of Linux systems even though they all differ in the > >details. > > Exactly. What's more, there are Linux-related companies such as LinuxCare > and VA Linux. Walnut Creek is the ONLY company which has been allowed > to start an enterprise -- FreeBSDMall.com -- which uses the FreeBSD > name. Others should be allowed to do so as well. Frankly, I find this argument unconvincing. I realize that Linux has used the unity of the idea of "Linux is not a distribution" in order to effectively "Cross the Chasm", as Geoffrey Moore of Regis McKenna, Inc., has succinctly put it. But do not forget that in his book, "Crossing the Chasm", and again in his book "Inside the Tornado", and in general, in the apparent public philosophy of Regis McKenna, Inc., and other high technology public relations and marketing firms that are not as famous as they are in Silicon Valley, there is only one "Chasm Crossing" per stregy, and each new attempt must use a strategy different from that of its competitors. The BSDI press release on the merger emphasizes brand unification, as did Jordan at the last BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) meeting. I don't think brand unification will be enough to cause BSD to "Cross the Chasm" to commercial profitability between the "Early Adopters" and the "Early Majority". There are issues of brand involved here, but I don't think it's safe to claim, like BSDI, Brett, Jordan, and Paul, that brand divisiveness caused by forking caused by a trademark usage policy, is necessarily the only obstacle to a "Chasm Crossing". Certainly, people could profit greatly from another FreeBSD distribution, which disdained the current installer, and provided a replacement. I think this could be accomplished with a two CDROM set, one a FreeBSD disk image, unchanged, and another with the installer, a FreeBSD kernel, etc., all bootable, called "The Install Disk", or even with a single DVDROM -- though the mass market for that isn't there yet. And I agree that, like the RPM (Red Hat Package Manager) package format, which has been adopted by almost all Linux distributions as at least an "also ran", a new install system that could probably not get in through the commit filter otherwise, could find itself the standard for a more user-friendly FreeBSD installation tool, if, like RPM, it were allowed to compete without having to change the brand name. But this all begs the point of overall market strategy for the FreeBSD project itself, and whether the project itself even has the will or desire to "Cross the Chasm", or, as stated above, mere brand unity would even be a factor, one way or the other, as much marketing and public relations talent in the Silicon Valley claims it would not. There are a lot of fine engineers here, but there are not a lot of fine marketers, and certainly no great ones, or new PC-grade hardware would be shipping with "BSD 2000", or its moral equivalent, not "Windows 2000", and not Red Hat Linux. An attempt on the chasm will require fine marketing, and it's likely that the FreeBSD community as it currently stands will not tolerate sufficient "dumbing down" for consumerism for that to ever happen. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16:40:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7061637BE13 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19949 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:21:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA72823 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:40:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:40:10 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Be the first on your block with this one! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oooo. Nifty. A 180 MHz machine with an LCD. Now if only it had an ethernet port.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16:52:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne004m.webcentral.com.au (bne004m.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CBFBF37BE13 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:52:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 32435 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2000 00:52:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.162.39) by bne004m.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 17 Mar 2000 00:52:14 -0000 Message-ID: <003c01bf8fab$d53a2380$27a293cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Ben Smithurst" Cc: References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> <20000316220037.C10813@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:57:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org *snip* > > I came across FreeBSD by chance really. IIRC I was downloading some > big Quake-related thing (god knows what), and found a directory called > "/packages/FreeBSD" on the ftp server while I was poking around waiting > for the download to finish. I read a few README files, downloaded the > bin.* files (which took a while over a 28.8k modem), and, well, that was > that. I guess that's the only useful thing to come of me playing Quake. > :-) Heh...what interested my in FreeBSD was that userfriendly strip with the daemon in it. I had tried to install read hat earlier, but It Just Plain Refused to. The world is weird in it's ways...I'm downloading the ISO image for 4.0 right now..It s taking me all week over my 56k, but who's counting? heh. > -- > Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D *snip* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16:56:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE7637B596 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:56:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wigstah@akitanet.co.uk) Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by elwood.akitanet.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04635; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:05:46 GMT Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:47:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Robinson To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Be the first on your block with this one! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > Oooo. Nifty. A 180 MHz machine with an LCD. Now if only it had an ethernet > port.... This got on /. last week - the mods are a bit weird, and the sound card drivers aren't open source which makes it tricky. Ethernet can probably be added due to the fact it has a USB on it, and remember there is a parallel port on it so PLIP is possible... -- Paul Robinson - Developer/Systems Administrator @ Akitanet Internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16:56:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A094637BA93 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17654; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:56:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:56:03 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:08 PM 3/15/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >As an ordinary user not at all associated with FreeBSD >development, I find both positions uncomfortable. Obviously not >anyone should be allowed to use the FreeBSD trademark: it would >then cease to have value as a trademark. If Brett insists that >anyone should unconditionally be allowed to use it, one can only >suspect his motives. Actually, what *I* suspect is the possible motives for some of the conditions. So far, the trademark Linux has been allowed to be used for any purpose that is not deceptive or defamatory, and it has worked well. Restricting the name in any other case requires an excessive amount of oversight and too much of a chance that case-by-case judgments will be biased by vested interests. Market forces should take care of products of poor quality; they won't sell and will soon be gone. So, if a product is viable and doesn't use the name FreeBSD deceptively (that is, it really has something to do with FreeBSD), why not let it use the name? >On the other hand, it is a legitimate question whether someone >who adds on a new installer, or some graphical tools for system >administration, or whatever, but leaves the basic OS unchanged, >can continue to distribute it under the name FreeBSD. I think so, too. After all, it still *is*, fundamentally, FreeBSD. With improvements that can enhance the usability and reputation of the OS. >I believe >that they should be allowed to do so, if their product satisfies >some compatibility conditions which should be clearly laid out. >Apparently some core members who've been contributing on this >thread agree with the above; others think that such packagers can >call their product SomethingelseBSD So long as WC granted permission for the use of the letters "BSD." (I think that "BSD" is probably a generic term, but who wants to fight in court about that?) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 16:59:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B5A37BCC7 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:59:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17708; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:59:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000316175744.04112740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:58:58 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Paul Richards From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:32 PM 3/15/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > I have no reason to suspect this, but if you do, then this is a > good time to bring it up. However, you should not be basing statements > or arguments on an assumption like this, which has not yet proven to be > either false or true. You simply don't know whether or not you have a > leg to stand on. The fact is, that if someone owns the trademark and doesn't make a commitment to an explicit policy, NO ONE knows whether he or she has a leg to stand on. This is known as FUD. One of the things which will promote the growth of FreeBSD and BSD UNIX in general will be to dispel all such FUD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 17: 0:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne005m.server-mail.com (bne005m.server-mail.com [202.139.234.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E34F37C223 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 8661 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2000 01:00:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.162.39) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2000 01:00:28 -0000 Message-ID: <009a01bf8fac$fb8afcc0$27a293cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> <20000316215216.A248@parish> <20000316141306.C2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:06:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Taylor ; Paul Richards ; Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions *snip* > > The metric system made a distinction between weight and mass right > from the beginning. The gram was the unit of mass, not weight; the > unit of weight was the bary, which dropped out of use. I can see why...I can't imagine strolling into a shop and going " A bary of potatoes please, my good man" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 17: 1:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068DD37C239 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17756; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:01:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000316175938.04124880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:01:29 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: < Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:42 PM 3/15/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > Let me add that I believe that the only way licenses could be > granted in this fashion would be for the FreeBSD Core Team (and later, > the FreeBSD Foundation) to actually see a copy of the product in > question, so that they can confirm for themselves that it does actually > meet their standards. They would also have to have certain guarantees > that the product as shipped would be the same product that they have approved. > > If you're not willing to give them a copy beforehand, then you > have no right to complain about not being able to use the trademark. In this case, Walnut Creek shall have a permanent edge over any other company that might want to use the name FreeBSD, because at least two people who work for it will always be able to preview any competitive product long before shipment. Not an acceptable policy. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 17: 2:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACA937C2AB for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06279; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:02:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAaKayYl; Thu Mar 16 18:01:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19841; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:02:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003170102.SAA19841@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What result would *you* like from the merger? To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:02:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: gummibear@nettaxi.com (Joey Garcia), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Mar 15, 2000 10:13:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Joey Garcia writes: > > I would like more books on FreeBSD and BSD/OS. > > So write one! So publish a roadmap of what's going to stay the same or change in the next 4-6 months, dammit, so it won't be out of date before its published, and people will actually buy the thing. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 17: 7:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA6537BAE0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17810; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:07:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000316180159.04112840@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:06:56 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Doug Barton" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: In-Reply-To: <005601bf8f2c$4939f010$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:44 AM 3/16/2000 , David Schwartz wrote: >The only reason you have any desire to >associate the FreeBSD name with your distribution is because of the immense >value the name has. Actually, I'd be glad to call a derived product something else. However, (a) it would perceived as a fork and hence hurt FreeBSD; (b) It would create confusion regarding compatibility; and (c) it would fail to give credit where credit was due. If I wanted a name purely for value, I'd do a Linux distro. It'd be instant IPO time, unless I did it as badly as LinuxOne. (Which I wouldn't, since I care about quality. Besides, their bungling would be hard to beat.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 17:27:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB9F37C1C6 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17815; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000316175938.04124880@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > In this case, Walnut Creek shall have a permanent edge over any other > company that might want to use the name FreeBSD, because at least two > people who work for it will always be able to preview any competitive > product long before shipment. > > Not an acceptable policy. Ok, then you need to immediately cease all plans to ever market any product that uses the word FreeBSD in it. No halfway intelligent person would ever grant anyone the right to use their trademark without having full knowledge about what kind of product their name is going to be placed on. You clearly have absolutely no idea how the real world works Brett. This is, of course, the basis for my previous comments that you are not to be taken seriously. What you are advocating for will NEVER happen. Therefore you need to stop filling up everyone's mailboxes with your pointless drivel. Doug -- "While the future's there for anyone to change, still you know it seems, it would be easier sometimes to change the past" - Jackson Browne, "Fountain of Sorrow" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 17:30: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A418E37BD1C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17095; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:29:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAApOaaxH; Thu Mar 16 18:29:04 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20579; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:29:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003170129.SAA20579@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: This is stupid To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Mar 16, 2000 06:42:31 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Suffice it to say that I believe the trademark owning > > entity should be extremely discriminating in granting licenses to use the > > name, but that such licenses should be granted when the product being > > marketed will add value to the brand. > > Well said! > > > Let me add that I believe that the only way licenses could be > granted in this fashion would be for the FreeBSD Core Team (and > later, the FreeBSD Foundation) to actually see a copy of the product > in question, so that they can confirm for themselves that it does > actually meet their standards. They would also have to have certain > guarantees that the product as shipped would be the same product that > they have approved. > > If you're not willing to give them a copy beforehand, then you > have no right to complain about not being able to use the trademark. Blah blah blah. It's obvious to me that the real issues of this dicussion should be: 1) Use of a trademark derivative of "BSD", not "FreeBSD", so the FreeBSD foundation is out of the loop; this is purely a BSDI issue. 2) What pieces are part of a distribution of "FreeBSD", if there was great insistance on using a "FreeBSD" derived name, rather than a "BSD" derived name? As to question #1: The position Jordan took at the user group meeting was a unification under the "BSD" umbrella. I personally don't think this is going to have the value that everyone appears to think it's going to have. But some people do, and are obviously very emotionally attached to the idea of "FreeBSD Must Not Fork", and so want to use a "FreeBSD" derived name for another distribution. So on to question #2: The "image" argument is an obvious impediment. It implies that the vendor must start with a cruddy installer and user experience (read: non-graphical and targetted at a tech-head), and keep the BSD style "rc" files (which are anti-component in the extreme, since they can't imply dependency ordering, and can't be easily added to by way of drop-in or replacement components, and in general would not be useful for a vendor like Oracle looking to make an install script that made the database start/stop on system boot/halt). Is a post-install FreeBSD system that was installed with a different installer not a FreeBSD system? How can we have two installers -- the thing that the system boots into when it first boots on a new platform -- and have one of them be preferred over the other, based on the CDROM it lives on? How can we set it up so that they can compete, and "may the best installer win"? Not to inject any sense of history into this discussion, but the first time Brett brought this idea up, all he wanted to do was: 1) Have a different default installer 2) Install some components that weren't installed on a default FreeBSD installation, and could only be put on one with a custom install and a great deal of knowledge already under your belt 3) Add a default splash-screen 4) Default to a graphical login (I may have misremembered these last two) 5) Install some commercial add-on packages that didn't come with the Walnut Creek CDROM distribution, and weren't likely to make it in past the purists who feared a "dumbing down" of their beloved OS Does that make the OS not FreeBSD? The only point of conflict with his previously stated plans and the "FreeBSD is everything if you want the trademark" camp is to throw away the current installer. Personally, I think that if the current installer died the grim death tommorrow, it would not be too soon. And it would still be FreeBSD. Hell, it'd be FreeBSD++. I'll slink back to my hole, now. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 18:45:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0128B37B84E for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:45:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA64618; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:42:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:42:01 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Mark Ovens Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Taylor , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000316214201.D64407@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> <20000316215216.A248@parish> <20000316141306.C2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <20000316234228.C248@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000316234228.C248@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:42:28PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:42:28PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:13:06PM -0800, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 16 March 2000 at 21:52:16 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:18:29PM -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >> > > >>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:10:59AM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > >> > > >>>>> 453.6 graham crackers = 1 pound cake > > >>>> > > >>>> I'm not getting that one at all? > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> Neither do I. I didn't dream them up, I just posted them. > > >> > > >> 454 grams to the pound (roughly). > > > > > > Yes, I knew that. What I don't know is what "graham crackers" are, or > > > is it just word-play on gram? > > > > > >> Why you'd compare a mass to a weight is > > >> anyone's guess, but that's probably just the physics in me talking. :-) > > >> > > > > > > Both the imperial and metric systems mix up mass and weight. I was > > > always explained to me that this is because the average non-technical > > > person can't understand the difference; buting 1kg of sugar is easy to > > > grasp, but 9.81 Newtons? > > > > The metric system made a distinction between weight and mass right > > from the beginning. The gram was the unit of mass, > ^^^ > > is Depends. IIRC, some would say that the kilogram is the basic unit of mass. For a long time, some 1 kg reference mass sitting under some glass in France was _the_ kilogram. Now I think mass is defined as exactly so many carbon-12 atoms or something along those lines? Remember MKS (meters, kilograms, seconds) and CGS (centimeters, grams, seconds) as the different sets of units to make compound units in SI. e.g., 1 N = 1 kg m/s^2 1 dyne = 1 g cm/s^2 1 Joule = 1 kg m^2/s^2 1 erg = 1 g cm^2/s^2 MKS seemed to be the more "proper" ones. > > not weight; the > > unit of weight was the bary, which dropped out of use. > > > > In the SI system the Newton is the unit of weight, weight being the > force of gravity exerted on a mass. The Newton is the unit of force. The force required to accelerate on kilogram mass at one meter per second per second. "Weight" happens to be the force that the Earth's gravity imposes on a mass. I always remember the college professor who had been using American Engineering Units too long trying to convince us that there really was a g_c in, F = ma When using SI units, but it just happened to be unity. We never bought it. I've been dealing with an old FORTRAN code at work lately. All kinds of painful units, BTUs, ft/s, Rankine, lbm, lbf. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 19:16:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF58F37BB62 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([168.176.3.60]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5925; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:16:21 -0500 Message-ID: <38D17D02.5486A25C@asme.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:32:02 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: James Howard Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That brings the old memories... AFAIK, I installed the first FreeBSD box in Colombia. Linux was barely known then, but the idea of a system created by a CS student in Finland was not convincing enough for my first UNIX encounter. I was basicly learning with Solaris and SCO then, and I found on the net some information about 386BSD, NetBSD and FreeBSD. The *BSD history seemed interesting enough to give these a try, and if I hadn't liked it, the source code would still be an excelent reference. I was interested in NetBSD but I had a PC, and only FreeBSD had a CD distribution those days. I tried the installation floppy of the just-released 2.0.5R and it did look promising but I didn't consider sensible to attempt installing it with the limited bandwidth we had. Casually someone from the University was travelling to the US and asked me where he could find a good Linux distribution; I gave him the information about WC's Slackware and mentioned FreeBSD. The guy brought with him a FreeBSD-2.0.5 Release that I installed while he was playing with his Slackware. Both CD sets got lost misteriously. unalbsd.usc.unal.edu.co (as we called that first box) was installed from the CD distribution mounted over NFS. unalbsd is very dead now, but we were very impressed when we saw how much faster it was compared to the SCO system it replaced. I went into a big deal of trouble building gcc, gopher, ghostscript, lynx, and XFree86 under SCO; with FreeBSD all of this and much more was included. I was very much hooked since then to FreeBSD: In home my ATAPI CD drive wasn't recognized, the graphic card never worked properly and it took me quite some time to get ppp and netscape running, but it has always been my favorite OS. My addiction to the ports tree came shortly after and when I was contracted by the School library I had three boxes with FreeBSD installed... I have made many good friends using FreeBSD, which is something that I would also add as a positive point: we still don't have too much of the bigotry common in other groups. Well that was it, here I am, anxiously waiting or each release every four months :). cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 19:33: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0042D37BCC9 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:33:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-163.ocis.net [209.52.175.153]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28170; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:31:45 -0800 Message-Id: <200003170331.TAA28170@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: Mark Ovens Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:31:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000316235012.F248@parish> References: <200003162250.OAA28180@ocis.ocis.net>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:49:44PM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So Canada subscribes to the US belief in short measure :) Most things Americans believe, we believe in short measure. :) Freddie Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 21: 3:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0621937BB62 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA11603 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:03:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:03:47 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: March BAFUG meeting in Berkeley Message-ID: <20000316210347.C11516@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- Berkeley BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) March 2000 Meeting The Berkeley chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, March 23rd. This month's meeting will be held at The Transbay / UC Computers at 2569 Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Our Agenda will be : Agenda : ==> Our main speaker is Bob Bruce, the president of Walnut Creek CDROM. Bob will be discussing the recent merger of Walnut Creek CDROM with BSDI and the future of FreeBSD, BSDI, etc. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on March 25th at The Robert Austin Computer Show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at UC Computers / Transbay in Berkeley. UC Computers is located at 2569 Telegraph Ave. between Parker & Baker Streets. There is limited parking on the street. Their phone number is (510) 649-6087. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By AC Transit bus: By AC Transit bus: Routes 40 El Cerrito - Bayfair, 64 Downtown Berkeley - Merritt College, 51 Berkeley - Oakland - Alameda, 52 U.C. Village - U.C. Campus, 7 Del Norte BART - Rockridge BART, and "U" San Francisco - Berkeley stop nearby. By BART: From the downtown Berkeley station, walk uphill (east) one block on Allston Way to Oxford Street at the edge of the UC campus, turning right (south) two blocks to turn left (east) onto Bancroft Way. Walk three blocks uphill to turn right (south) onto Telegraph Avenue. Transbay/UC Computers is 5 1/2 short blocks ahead, at 2569 Telegraph. By Car: By car: From I-80, exit eastbound on University Avenue, and proceed two miles to the end, turning right (south) on Oxford Street. Proceed 11 blocks along Oxford (which becomes Fulton Street) to turn left (east) on Parker Street. Go three blocks to Telegraph, and park where you can. Transbay/UC Computers is at 2569 Telegraph. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.transbay.net http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington , or Josef Grosch on or before March 23rd so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 21:29: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F8E37BB55 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:29:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23466; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:10:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA75447; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:28:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:28:06 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Ben Smithurst , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while In-Reply-To: <003c01bf8fab$d53a2380$27a293cb@timberwolf> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The world is weird in it's ways...I'm downloading the ISO image for 4.0 > right now..It > s taking me all week over my 56k, but who's counting? > heh. cd /usr/ports/ftp/wget wget(1) is your friend. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 21:30:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D4937BD1A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:30:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21514; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38D1C2FD.3339346F@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:30:37 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0315 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316175744.04112740@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:32 PM 3/15/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > > > I have no reason to suspect this, but if you do, then this is a > > good time to bring it up. However, you should not be basing statements > > or arguments on an assumption like this, which has not yet proven to be > > either false or true. You simply don't know whether or not you have a > > leg to stand on. > > The fact is, that if someone owns the trademark and doesn't make a > commitment to an explicit policy, NO ONE knows whether he or she has a leg > to stand on. This is known as FUD. No it isn't. FUD is short for "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt." It's the spreading of disinformation about a project by its detractors. This is a common tactic employed by say, microsoft. > One of the things which will promote the growth of FreeBSD and BSD UNIX in > general will be to dispel all such FUD. It's not possible (or I should say, prudent) for any trademark holder to lay out a clear, "unambiguous" set of rules for using its trademark is that they can be sued over it. Doug -- "While the future's there for anyone to change, still you know it seems, it would be easier sometimes to change the past" - Jackson Browne, "Fountain of Sorrow" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 23:38:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385D837BD7F for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21484; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:38:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317001756.040fd470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:38:05 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003170017.RAA18542@usr02.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000312154517.04127580@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:17 PM 3/16/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >I realize that Linux has used the unity of the idea of "Linux >is not a distribution" in order to effectively "Cross the Chasm", >as Geoffrey Moore of Regis McKenna, Inc., has succinctly put it. > >But do not forget that in his book, "Crossing the Chasm", and >again in his book "Inside the Tornado", and in general, in the >apparent public philosophy of Regis McKenna, Inc., and other >high technology public relations and marketing firms that are >not as famous as they are in Silicon Valley, there is only one >"Chasm Crossing" per stregy, and each new attempt must use a >strategy different from that of its competitors. > >The BSDI press release on the merger emphasizes brand unification, >as did Jordan at the last BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) >meeting. I don't think brand unification will be enough to cause >BSD to "Cross the Chasm" to commercial profitability between the >"Early Adopters" and the "Early Majority". > >There are issues of brand involved here, but I don't think it's >safe to claim, like BSDI, Brett, Jordan, and Paul, that brand >divisiveness caused by forking caused by a trademark usage >policy, is necessarily the only obstacle to a "Chasm Crossing". I agree with you. However, I think that it is an important obstacle in that it provides may within the Linux camp with a weapon they can use to hinder the crossing of that chasm by BSD. Why would they want to prevent BSD from making the crossing? Partially because of their adherence to the doctrines of Richard Stallman, who preaches the extinction of commercial software by the use of open source as a weapon. (BSD thwarts that strategy through fair licensing.) And partially because of the combative nature of adaptive memes. To achieve dominance, a meme must contain instructions to oppose others. >Certainly, people could profit greatly from another FreeBSD >distribution, which disdained the current installer, and provided >a replacement. I think this could be accomplished with a two >CDROM set, one a FreeBSD disk image, unchanged, and another >with the installer, a FreeBSD kernel, etc., all bootable, called >"The Install Disk", or even with a single DVDROM -- though the >mass market for that isn't there yet. Possibly. However, to make the product more available and less expensive, it'd be nice if there were one disc. >But this all begs the point of overall market strategy for the >FreeBSD project itself, and whether the project itself even has >the will or desire to "Cross the Chasm", or, as stated above, This may be the real problem. There are too many people even WITHIN the project who oppose the crossing of the "chasm," perhaps out of some sort of fear that success necessarily corrupts or ruins all endeavors. >mere brand unity would even be a factor, one way or the other, >as much marketing and public relations talent in the Silicon >Valley claims it would not. "Brand unity" is a factor, but you are correct in that there are others. I've mentioned these on the various BSD lists and have been flamed viciously for pointing some of them out! >There are a lot of fine engineers here, but there are not a lot >of fine marketers, and certainly no great ones, or new PC-grade >hardware would be shipping with "BSD 2000", or its moral >equivalent, not "Windows 2000", and not Red Hat Linux. An attempt >on the chasm will require fine marketing, and it's likely that >the FreeBSD community as it currently stands will not tolerate >sufficient "dumbing down" for consumerism for that to ever happen. I, personally, don't believe that "dumbing down" is a requirement for success or even for ubiquity. Many products which are successful today are quite complex, have great subtlety and/or require effort to master. Saxophones, band saws, and sports cars are examples. Even Windows is a reasonably good example. The problems with Windows stem not from a lack of complexity or subtlety but from criminally careless implementation. Terry, how would you propose that FreeBSD and/or the BSDs as a group "cross the chasm?" --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 23:40: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5E937BD54 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21516; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:39:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317003916.04184a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:39:55 -0700 To: "Haikal Saadh" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: <009a01bf8fac$fb8afcc0$27a293cb@timberwolf> References: <20000316182207.C235@parish> <20000316215216.A248@parish> <20000316141306.C2841@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:06 PM 3/16/2000 , Haikal Saadh wrote: >I can see why...I can't imagine strolling into a shop and going " A bary of >potatoes please, my good man" "Bary 'em? Whoy, Oy just dug 'em up!" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 23:45:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0B737BD52 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21560; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:45:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317004047.04182240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:45:37 -0700 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000316175938.04124880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:27 PM 3/16/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > In this case, Walnut Creek shall have a permanent edge over any other > > company that might want to use the name FreeBSD, because at least two > > people who work for it will always be able to preview any competitive > > product long before shipment. > > > > Not an acceptable policy. > > Ok, then you need to immediately cease all plans to ever market >any product that uses the word FreeBSD in it. No halfway intelligent >person would ever grant anyone the right to use their trademark without >having full knowledge about what kind of product their name is going to be >placed on. I guess you do not consider Linus Torvalds to be intelligent, then. > You clearly have absolutely no idea how the real world works >Brett. Yes, I do. And when it doesn't work, it's usually due to people being overly controlling, possessive, and/or otherwise anal retentive, as you are being here. It's people like you, and attitudes such as yours, which are the greatest dangers to the BSDs' success and have kept them from achieving prominence up to this point. Of course, if you are in such denial that you refuse to consider or learn from the success of Linux, there's just no point trying to enlighten you. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 23:50:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E8D37BCB3 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:50:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21597; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:49:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317004847.0410a580@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:49:09 -0700 To: fcash@bigfoot.com, Mark Ovens From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003170331.TAA28170@ocis.ocis.net> References: <20000316235012.F248@parish> <200003162250.OAA28180@ocis.ocis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:31 PM 3/16/2000 , Freddie Cash wrote: >Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your >ego at the door. > - Colonel Kernel Gee, this would be good advice for the trademark discussion too. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 16 23:52:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE1937BD9A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21621; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:51:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317004949.040fa100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:51:51 -0700 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Brad Knowles , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38D1C2FD.3339346F@gorean.org> References: <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316175744.04112740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:30 PM 3/16/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > The fact is, that if someone owns the trademark and doesn't make a > > commitment to an explicit policy, NO ONE knows whether he or she has a leg > > to stand on. This is known as FUD. > > No it isn't. FUD is short for "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt." It's the >spreading of disinformation about a project by its detractors. This is a >common tactic employed by say, microsoft. Wrong. Note that the word "misinformation" is nowhere in the words "fear," "uncertainty," or "doubt." And for good reason. What FUD is, fundamentally, is an atmosphere in which people do not act because they cannot access their chances of success. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 0:15:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40B737BBD3 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83154; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:12:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Will Andrews Cc: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions References: <20000315214713.H244@parish> <38D042B3.8B07AA4C@originative.co.uk> <20000316182207.C235@parish> <20000316143925.A393@argon.blackdawn.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Mar 2000 09:12:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: Will Andrews's message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:39:25 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews writes: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:06:56PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > 453.6 g (gram) = 1 lb (pound) > > > > Geez, isn't it scary when furriners who've spent a grand total of one > > week in an English-speaking country in their entire lives get jokes > > the natives don't? > You should be aware that this is a universal conversion method, not an > English/American-only thing. Which isn't relevant. What's relevant is that the jokes Mark posted are puns *in English* which require of the reader a) a good grasp of English (particularly US English) semantics and pronunciation and b) familiarity with American culture and idiom. For instance, understanding the "8 nickels = 2 paradigms" joke requires not only knowledge of how US natives pronounce "paradigm" but also knowledge of the fact that "nickel" is a common name for the US five-cent piece (which is usually made of a nickel-copper alloy) and "dime" (from the latin word for "one tenth") is a common name for the US ten-cent piece. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 0:25:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694B537BBD3 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA83194; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:25:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Terry Lambert Cc: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <200003162258.PAA12226@usr09.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Mar 2000 09:25:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:58:10 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 63 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > > [Terry claims -core aren't treating Matt Dillon fairly] > > You know that's crap, Terry. Don't go there. You'll only start off a > > new flamewar. > And you quoting it back as "flamebait" won't... but now that > you have achieved your goal of goading me into justifying my > comments, let me lay it out for you: Let's please not have this discussion in public. > 2) Given that BSDI has binary-only drivers, the source for > which can not be released because of NDA, are the binary > object files, linkable to a FreeBSD kernel using the > process outlined in #1, going to be made available for > use in FreeBSD? Why should they? If they were written by BSDI employees, spending BSDI money, I see no reason why BSDI wouldn't be allowed to keep them proprietary. That's the whole point with using the BSD license instead of the GPL. > 3) Given new hardware under NDA, when the hardware is no > longer under NDA because the Linux camp have done our > jobs for us, and gotten documentation released, or have > written a driver without documentation, will the NDA > driver then be released? That's up to BSDI. IMHO, they'd be stupid not to, since they'd then have to keep maintaining it (at a cost) when it no longer gives them a commercial advantage because competitors can write equivalent or better drivers, so it'd simply make good business sense to release the driver and let the teeming millions (aka. the FreeBSD committers) maintain it for them. > 4) If the answer is "no", then will the powers that be permit > a driver written using the Linux driver as a reference to > be committed to the FreeBSD tree, as has occurred with > other drivers in the past? Why shouldn't they? How is BSDI going to stop a FreeBSD committer from committing such a driver to the tree? What makes you think BSDI will have dictatorial control over FreeBSD development? They won't. The alert reader will notice that the objections you've raised in questions 1 through 4 are the classical objections GPL advocates always raise against the BSD license (claiming that distributing software under the BSD license allows commercial vendors to hijack the software), and that the answers I've given you are the classical replies from the BSD advocates. > 5) Say a division of IBM uses FreeBSD, and a driver for > IBM hardware is written under NDA, and the answer to any > of #1, #2, or #3 is "no". Will the division of IBM be > forced to use BSDI, or not have a driver for hardware > obtained from a different division of IBM, with which the > first division has no political clout? I don't quite follow this. Who, in this hypothetical scenario, actually wrote the driver? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 1: 9: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEAE37BDB2 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (allenc.verinet.com [199.45.180.181]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01706; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 02:08:55 -0700 Received: from verinet.com (allenc@pragma. [192.168.1.2]) by const. (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA21611; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 02:08:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:08:52 +0000 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is stupid References: <200003170129.SAA20579@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > The "image" argument is an obvious impediment. It implies that > the vendor must start with a cruddy installer and user experience > (read: non-graphical and targetted at a tech-head), and keep the > BSD style "rc" files (which are anti-component in the extreme, > since they can't imply dependency ordering, and can't be easily > added to by way of drop-in or replacement components, and in general > would not be useful for a vendor like Oracle looking to make an > install script that made the database start/stop on system boot/halt). This implies BSDI has a SYSV style boot system. If so, I second the notion that this would be an improvement. Tradition, in this case, is a lose. Cruddy or not, the current install/config software persists because nothing better has ever emerged. Not in half a decade (sysinstall.h 1.1 Apr 27, 1995.) Thanks Jordan, it's a fine bit of work, making FreeBSD accessible to hundreds of thousands despite ample `code free' criticism. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 1:48:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A44437BB30 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:47:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 996 invoked by uid 211); 17 Mar 2000 09:47:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Mar 2000 09:47:39 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:17:38 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317004047.04182240@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Ok, then you need to immediately cease all plans to ever market > >any product that uses the word FreeBSD in it. No halfway intelligent > >person would ever grant anyone the right to use their trademark without > >having full knowledge about what kind of product their name is going to be > >placed on. > > I guess you do not consider Linus Torvalds to be intelligent, then. He did not originally consider the question: iirc, the name Linux was trademarked on his behalf only after someone else tried to trademark it first. Since then, of course, he has been quite liberal with allowing people to use it, and consequently, together with the genuine companies, ripoffs like LinuxOne have also tried to cash in. I doubt anybody in the FreeBSD world wants to move in that direction. Linux's success shows the way but Linus's decision was not a conscious one, he may have done things differently if he had had prior examples to follow, and at this point of time an intelligent person would try and adopt the good ideas and avoid the mistakes. > Yes, I do. And when it doesn't work, it's usually due to people being > overly controlling, possessive, and/or otherwise anal retentive, as > you are being here. It's people like you, and attitudes such as yours, > which are the greatest dangers to the BSDs' success and have kept them > from achieving prominence up to this point. No. The greatest danger to the BSD's success is the attitude of certain BSD zealots who believe that it is the one true way and anything GPL'd must be evil. This is what kept me from "advocating" BSD for a long time, though I could admit to liking it. Linux has its rabid zealots, but I see no reason to imitate them; and it's ridiculous to go about replacing the "Gates is evil" banner of many linuxers with a "Stallman is Satan" banner. Even if such ranting has succeeded in converting some people to linux, it will not help BSD: Gates is a favourite target of hate among unix people and even among the more knowledgeable people in the dos/windows world, but Stallman is quite widely respected even among those who don't totally subscribe to his ideology. A newcomer, especially one with prior linux experience, would get totally turned off by some of the postings on these mailing lists. These lists are not really private discussions. They're a support system, publicly archived, browsable, and a way to initiate newcomers into the community. On the positive side, in the year or so during which I've been "listening in", attitudes do seem to be changing, with more positive discussion of BSD and (slightly) less talk about the shoddiness of linux and the sinister hidden agenda behind the GPL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 2:18:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B944237B998 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 02:18:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40625; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:12:24 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:12:24 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: "CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about derivered version of FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000317101224.A38664@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <0056920005206266000002L262*@MHS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <0056920005206266000002L262*@MHS>; from "CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:47:01PM +0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:47:01PM +0800, "CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com wrote: > A project called "CFE" (Chinese FreeBSD Extension) has been launched > in taiwan user group. Another similar project come out from China Mainland. > > AFAKI, I believe they will modify the "base system" code for Chinese > support in C Lib level. In the homepage of "CFE" claims that it release > with BSD license. > > My question is: A modified version of FreeBSD can be called "FreeBSD" ? That question is best addressed to core@freebsd.org. However, I'm more interested in the modifications that you're planning on making. Will you be feeding these back to the project as a whole, so that (for example) a Spanish localisation could benefit from them? We've got some docs about this, see http://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/l10n.html N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 3:59:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BC737BC25 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BBB312353; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:29 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003162258.PAA12226@usr09.primenet.com> References: <200003162258.PAA12226@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:04:19 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:58 PM +0000 2000/3/16, Terry Lambert wrote: > 2) Given that BSDI has binary-only drivers, the source for > which can not be released because of NDA, are the binary > object files, linkable to a FreeBSD kernel using the > process outlined in #1, going to be made available for > use in FreeBSD? Given what I heard at the NLFUG meeting from Jordan, it's my understanding that after FreeBSD 5.0, there won't *be* a separate BSD/OS anymore, because it will be fully integrated into FreeBSD. Therefore, if they want to continue to make NDA drivers available to their customers, they will have no choice but to make them work under FreeBSD. > 3) Given new hardware under NDA, when the hardware is no > longer under NDA because the Linux camp have done our > jobs for us, and gotten documentation released, or have > written a driver without documentation, will the NDA > driver then be released? Dunno. I sure would hope so, but this is a question you'd need to ask of Jordan, the Core Team, or maybe we'll all just have to wait and see what they can manage to do under the terms of the NDA. > 4) If the answer is "no", then will the powers that be permit > a driver written using the Linux driver as a reference to > be committed to the FreeBSD tree, as has occurred with > other drivers in the past? I would assume that if the answer to #3 is "no", then the answer to #4 *has* to be "yes". Even if they don't write such a driver, I'm sure that someone somewhere will, and even if they never allow this person to get that driver committed to the FreeBSD base, or even into the ports subsystem, there's nothing they can ever do to stop them from making it compatible on their own and making it available on their own. The fact that they can't stop someone else from doing it means that they would only be causing harm to themselves if they don't allow this to be included in either the base OS or the ports subsystem (as the author prefers). > 5) Say a division of IBM uses FreeBSD, and a driver for > IBM hardware is written under NDA, and the answer to any > of #1, #2, or #3 is "no". Will the division of IBM be > forced to use BSDI, or not have a driver for hardware > obtained from a different division of IBM, with which the > first division has no political clout? See my above answer to #2. There won't *be* a separate version of BSD/OS, so if someone wants an NDA driver, it's going to have to be written to work with FreeBSD. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 3:59:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC45237BC25 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072FB12501; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:42 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:12:32 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:56 PM -0700 2000/3/16, Brett Glass wrote: > Market forces should take care of products of poor quality; However, we know for a fact that this simply doesn't happen -- witness Microsoft, the prime example of marketing over substance. Personally, I consider Linux to be a pretty good example of marketing over substance, too. > they won't sell and will soon be gone. So, if a product is > viable and doesn't use the name FreeBSD deceptively (that is, it > really has something to do with FreeBSD), why not let it use > the name? See above. Your argument is based on a fallacy (that marketing over substance doesn't exist), and therefore additional controls need to be in place to ensure that not only is the marketing there (which I'm sure you would provide), but that the substance is also there (which is up to the FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation to ensure). To do otherwise would endanger the long-term health of the FreeBSD trademark, and the parties involved would not be upholding their fiduciary responsibilities. > So long as WC granted permission for the use of the letters "BSD." > (I think that "BSD" is probably a generic term, but who wants to > fight in court about that?) BSD is not a generic term. Witness the mention of the fact on this list that it was trademarked in 1991. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 4: 0: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD8237BE0F for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:59:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281FC12517; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:44 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000316175744.04112740@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312122651.00b1e880@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312144558.04190e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000312160425.00b16e80@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313103859.0410fe30@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313111904.041e0c00@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313131120.041d91f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315175102.03f72520@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316175744.04112740@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:14:27 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Paul Richards From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:58 PM -0700 2000/3/16, Brett Glass wrote: > The fact is, that if someone owns the trademark and doesn't make > a commitment to an explicit policy, NO ONE knows whether he or she > has a leg to stand on. This is known as FUD. > > One of the things which will promote the growth of FreeBSD and BSD > UNIX in general will be to dispel all such FUD. Well, in the fine tradition of "He who complains volunteers to fix it", it is now your job to shut up and go to the FreeBSD Core Team and discuss this issue with them, so that you can help dispel the FUD. So, please get on with your job. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 4: 0:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD96C37BF02 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F3B12530; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:49 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000316180159.04112840@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316180159.04112840@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:22:41 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "David Schwartz" , "Doug Barton" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:06 PM -0700 2000/3/16, Brett Glass wrote: > Actually, I'd be glad to call a derived product something else. However, > (a) it would perceived as a fork and hence hurt FreeBSD; This is not your problem. Stop trying to do someone else's job, and please get on with yours. > (b) It would > create confusion regarding compatibility; and This would be your responsibility as part of your marketing. If you're ever actually going to do anything, please get on with it and stop wasting our time and bandwidth. > (c) it would fail to give > credit where credit was due. This would likewise be your responsibility. Please get on with your job. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 4: 0:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F88437BEFF for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7401232A; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:47 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000316175938.04124880@localhost> References: < <4.2.2.20000316175938.04124880@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:19:46 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:01 PM -0700 2000/3/16, Brett Glass wrote: > In this case, Walnut Creek shall have a permanent edge over any > other company that might want to use the name FreeBSD, because at > least two people who work for it will always be able to preview > any competitive product long before shipment. > > Not an acceptable policy. There are companies all around the world that have to deal with coopetition issues, and the internal "Chinese Walls" that they have to erect to make sure that the part that has the insider access doesn't unduly influence the rest of the business or give them inappropriate access to information, etc.... This happens all the time in the financial world, where companies do *daily* turnover of hundreds of billions of dollars. Your little pissant complaints about these sorts of problems in another context don't amount to a hill of beans compared to this. Get over it. All we have to do is make sure that the FreeBSD Core Team (and the FreeBSD Foundation) fulfill their fiduciary obligations, and use whatever methods are necessary to ensure that the early access to this kind of information does not give an unfair advantage to any of the involved companies. I'm sure they're already very well aware of these facts, and your loudly moaning and bitching about this in public isn't going to teach them anything they don't already know far better than you ever could. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 4: 0:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013AD37BF0A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C35C12256; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:51 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003170129.SAA20579@usr02.primenet.com> References: <200003170129.SAA20579@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:38:34 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:29 AM +0000 2000/3/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > 1) Use of a trademark derivative of "BSD", not "FreeBSD", > so the FreeBSD foundation is out of the loop; this is > purely a BSDI issue. Not true. Brett keeps insisting that his product must share the FreeBSD trademark, and therefore this *is* an issue that the FreeBSD Foundation would have to deal with. However, there are also issues that BSD, Inc. would have to deal with, if the parties involved wanted to create another product that was derived from FreeBSD but wanted to use a different BSD-related trademark. You need to clearly distinguish between these two problems. > But some people > do, and are obviously very emotionally attached to the idea of > "FreeBSD Must Not Fork", and so want to use a "FreeBSD" derived > name for another distribution. If so, then they're simply going to have to get over the issue of submitting their product to the FreeBSD Foundation before they can get approval, because of their fears that this would create an unfair business situation. > The "image" argument is an obvious impediment. It implies that > the vendor must start with a cruddy installer and user experience > (read: non-graphical and targetted at a tech-head), and keep the > BSD style "rc" files (which are anti-component in the extreme, > since they can't imply dependency ordering, and can't be easily > added to by way of drop-in or replacement components, and in general > would not be useful for a vendor like Oracle looking to make an > install script that made the database start/stop on system boot/halt). I don't think any of this is necessarily true. You could ship a two CD product that has your installer, your GUI, your startup scripts, etc... on one CD (the "Install CD"), and then have the standard FreeBSD CD in addition (as the "Data CD"). > How can we have two installers -- the thing that the system boots > into when it first boots on a new platform -- and have one of them > be preferred over the other, based on the CDROM it lives on? I simply don't see the conflict here. It's a matter of marketing and creating the installation process and instructions so that one CD is used first, and then the other CD is used. Who cares what else is on that second CD? > Not to inject any sense of history into this discussion, but the > first time Brett brought this idea up, all he wanted to do was: > > 1) Have a different default installer No problem. > 2) Install some components that weren't installed on a > default FreeBSD installation, and could only be put > on one with a custom install and a great deal of > knowledge already under your belt No problem. > 3) Add a default splash-screen No problem. > 4) Default to a graphical login (I may have misremembered > these last two) No problem. > 5) Install some commercial add-on packages that didn't > come with the Walnut Creek CDROM distribution, and > weren't likely to make it in past the purists who > feared a "dumbing down" of their beloved OS No problem. The only problems arise when you want to put all this on a single CD and leave off some stuff that is part of the standard CD image that Jordan creates, in order to make room for the added stuff you want -- and then to try to call the resulting product "FreeBSD". You can add all the stuff you want (of course, you'd have to have it on a second CD, since the first one by Jordan is completely full), the real problems come when you want to start trying to take stuff away. > The only point of conflict with his previously stated plans and > the "FreeBSD is everything if you want the trademark" camp is > to throw away the current installer. Not true. Not true at all. I think we all hate the current installer, Jordan most of all. The real point of conflict here is that Brett wants to add some of his own proprietary stuff, take away some of the standard stuff, get it all on one CD, and then call the result "FreeBSD". Add all you want, but you can't take away. > Personally, I think that if the current installer died the grim > death tommorrow, it would not be too soon. And it would still > be FreeBSD. I certainly agree with this statement, and I believe that Jordan would whole-heartedly agree with you. In fact, this is why Jordan has paid contractors to develop a whole new installer, and while those people didn't do everything they were paid to do, they did create some tools that Jordan can use when he gets back around to rewriting the installer himself. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 7: 4:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1202.mail.yahoo.com (web1202.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0617537BBEB for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 4250 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Mar 2000 15:04:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20000317150412.4249.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [202.139.226.20] by web1202.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:04:12 PST Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:04:12 -0800 (PST) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while To: Kris Kirby Cc: Ben Smithurst , chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The world is weird in it's ways...I'm downloading > the ISO image for 4.0 > > right now..It > > s taking me all week over my 56k, but who's > counting? > > heh. > > > cd /usr/ports/ftp/wget > > wget(1) is your friend. > Should have mentioned that I'm downloadinf with windows....ppp's not really up yet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 7: 9:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB5D37BB4D for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:09:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3950F18C3; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:09:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:09:14 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000317100914.C404@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 03:30:54PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 03:30:54PM -0500, James Howard wrote: > I was just sitting here, thinking, wow, 4.0. I remember (like it was > yesterday) the first time I installed FreeBSD. It was 2.2.2. It was so > clean and smooth, unlike Linux, or Solaris, or OpenVMS. This was > different. On a 486 with 16 megs of RAM, it was faster and more > responsive than a dual P5/133 with 96 megs of RAM running Linux. This was > different. It managed uptimes of 80 days, before I would do something > dumb and crash the system (kill -9 -1 as root once:). That same Linux > system wouldn't do 10 days if it had to. This was different. *chuckle* It certainly has been awhile. I started with a shell on a FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE box in February 1997, and first installed on my own with 2.2.6-RELEASE (a P100) in June 1998. I never tried Linux after that. ;-) That box managed to get about a 45 day uptime before I had to kill it and convert it to Windoze for office purposes. These days, I run 3.x-STABLE with 30-60+ day uptimes on a PII-450 with 128MB RAM. I also have 5.0-CURRENT on this laptop I'm typing into. ;) > The 486 I used sat in a computer lab at Miami University. I had walked > into the lab one day with a FreeBSD boot disk. I made a sign saying > "Workstation Down" and hijacked a random PC, in the middle of the lab. It > ran for 9 months before one of the schools employees found something > amiss. They pulled the plug. But by then I was running FreeBSD at > home. And on one production server. In fact, since that first install of > 2.2.2, I have not installed any other OS, except for a simple install on a > throw-away system. And even then, it never lasts more than a few hours, > or long enough to see what they have changed in the past year. Heh.. that P100 I had was my old gaming box.. I wasn't in college yet (and still aren't, but that'll be this fall). > So what I am saying here is thank you for making such a kick ass system > and I'd love to hear about other's first expereinces with FreeBSD, or BSD > if you are older. In fact, I was born in December of 1979, if someone has > a first BSD story that predates that, I would be endlessly amused. There's plenty of folks around who still have 386BSD boxes running here and there. I've been using computers for almost 15 years, but unfortunately didn't discover FreeBSD until 1997. But then, I've used FreeBSD more in the last 3 years than I've used any other operating system in all 15 years. ;-) There are plenty of old archives on -chat for reference if you want to hear other peoples' stories. Somebody might feel obliged to post, but other than me, I doubt very many. :-) toodles, -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 7:10:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934CD37BDBD for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:10:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1653B18C3; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:10:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:10:44 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Matthew N. Dodd" , Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Correction of typo Message-ID: <20000317101044.D404@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313112734.041d5670@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313123947.041d46c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000313135923.041e05e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 10:08:09PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 10:08:09PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > Why don't you do this: > > cd /usr/ports > make install cd /usr/ports && find . -name patch | grep -v patches | wc -l ;-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 7:22:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F6137BF54 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE6B1D131; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:22:07 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D24D9F.60C8FE21@originative.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:22:07 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , Doug Barton , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is stupid References: <200003170129.SAA20579@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > ..... > I certainly agree with this statement, and I believe that Jordan > would whole-heartedly agree with you. > > In fact, this is why Jordan has paid contractors to develop a > whole new installer, and while those people didn't do everything they > were paid to do, they did create some tools that Jordan can use when > he gets back around to rewriting the installer himself. Has anyone ever seen these tools? I assume they're open source if they're going in to FreeBSD, if so it would be nice to see them. I wrote the original sysinstall and came up with the whole single process install concept (the current sysinstall is entirely Jordan's, there's not a single line of my code left) so the installer is something I have an interest in and if there's actualy code somewhere it'd be nice to be able to take a look at it and maybe help push things along a bit. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 7:46: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD41137BEFE for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12563; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:45:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwha4Gy; Fri Mar 17 08:45:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16366; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:45:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:45:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Mar 17, 2000 09:25:26 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Let's please not have this discussion in public. No problem; I won't, if you won't. > > 2) Given that BSDI has binary-only drivers, the source for > > which can not be released because of NDA, are the binary > > object files, linkable to a FreeBSD kernel using the > > process outlined in #1, going to be made available for > > use in FreeBSD? > > Why should they? If they were written by BSDI employees, spending BSDI > money, I see no reason why BSDI wouldn't be allowed to keep them > proprietary. That's the whole point with using the BSD license instead > of the GPL. The point is that, if a driver already exists in BSDI, and FreeBSD becomes the public shadow of the BSDI source tree, there is very little incentive to write a new driver among volunteers, because the job has already been done, and there are interesting things to write that haven't yet been done. Given a choice between writing something that has already been written by someone else, and writing something new, I believe that a volunteer will always choose to do the new thing. I can give relevent FreeBSD examples for this: o There is not BSD licensed FPU emulator o There is no UDI support in FreeBSD o For execution classes for other OSs, the OSs native libraries are used to achieve compatability, instead of having written ABI equivalents o There are still drivers missing in the new SCSI code that were supported under the old SCSI code o After licensing the Telenetworks ISDN stack, Whistle has not maintained its home-grown ISDN stack, which it could have released under BSD license I'll stop here, so as to not waste my entire morning citing examples; you get the point by now. I believe that the existance of a BSDI driver for something will implicitly discourage the developement of a FreeBSD driver for the same thing. This concept is not limited to drivers, however, since it must include things like the login.conf code, which was only recently, relative to its lifetime, released to NetBSD by BSDI, and then only after FreeBSD had practically reimplemented it, forcing their hand. > > 3) Given new hardware under NDA, when the hardware is no > > longer under NDA because the Linux camp have done our > > jobs for us, and gotten documentation released, or have > > written a driver without documentation, will the NDA > > driver then be released? > > That's up to BSDI. IMHO, they'd be stupid not to, since they'd then > have to keep maintaining it (at a cost) when it no longer gives them a > commercial advantage because competitors can write equivalent or > better drivers, so it'd simply make good business sense to release the > driver and let the teeming millions (aka. the FreeBSD committers) > maintain it for them. If the Linux camp writes the driver without documentation, there are a couple of holes in your thesis: o The drivers which can be written are not necessarily equivalent, or even capable of being equivalent o The BSDI drivers may disclose NDA information in the comments, manifest constant or variable naming, or even the structure of the code o The BSDI drivers may contain vendor-supplied code, such as the Adaptec HIM layer for supporting RAID using the Adaptec RAID sequencer microcode So even if BSDI wished to release this code, they may be legally prohibited from doing so. This once again begs the question of binary BSDI drivers being used by FreeBSD; it further raises the question of maintenance of the code, in the face of interface changes, since each interface change would require a rerelease of the BSDI binary code, which we would have to trust to occur, at perhaps large expense to BSDI, and for hardware which has been potentially marginalized to the point that it's not relevent to their market any more. And to support this, we still have to have the ability to link binary drivers from BSDI into FreeBSD at kernel creation time, even if all other obstacles are swept away. I suspect that the pressure of Linux on BSDI will not be so compelling a goad as the pressure of another BSD on BSDI. Consider also that a Linux driver, even one written with full documentation, will not remove the NDA agreement; a contract is a contract, as Public Key Partners can tell you. Finally, say we get to an impasse, for whatever reason, and BSDI doesn't release the driver in binary or source form at all. Is this a "fork event" for the combined source trees? The tools in use, i.e. CVS, do not support the concept of concurrent lines of developement; there's no "Julian SLICE code" LOD in FreeBSD, and the tools make it difficult for different technologies to compete under a single FreeBSD umbrella, with the best technology winning by virtue rather than by the need to prune one away to accomodate the tools imposition of the rule "there is only one -current". A pruning as a result of fiat by the tools means that the most mature, not the most virtuous, technology will winn the battle. Likewise, maintaining patches in the face of a moving source tree is a daunting task. How much better off would we be now, if a "FreeBSD + netgraph" LOD had been available ever since netgraph was operational, as opposed to the anti-bloat driven requirement that it not be integrated into "the one -current" until there was obvious utility other than to its author? Ask Julian how many cycles he wasted, tracking an unnecessarily moving target, when he could have been working on modules with obvious utility, such as the PPOE module, which is the only way some FreeBSD users can use FreeBSD and a cable modem at the same time. I'm not trying to pound on you here, I'm only saying that there are issues that need to be addressed. I'm not even claiming that my answers, where I've given my opinions, are the correct ones: only that answers are needed. > > 4) If the answer is "no", then will the powers that be permit > > a driver written using the Linux driver as a reference to > > be committed to the FreeBSD tree, as has occurred with > > other drivers in the past? > > Why shouldn't they? How is BSDI going to stop a FreeBSD committer from > committing such a driver to the tree? What makes you think BSDI will > have dictatorial control over FreeBSD development? They won't. I believe it's an emergent property of the tools. It's not by choice that this would happen; I believe there are good people involved, but even good people can become victims of circumstance. > The alert reader will notice that the objections you've raised in > questions 1 through 4 are the classical objections GPL advocates > always raise against the BSD license (claiming that distributing > software under the BSD license allows commercial vendors to hijack the > software), and that the answers I've given you are the classical > replies from the BSD advocates. No. We are arguing a different set of issues than that. I am one of those BSD advocates. GPL advocates argue that "hijack" is an emergent property of any license _other than the GPL_. It can be proven using games theory models and monte-carlo that that argument is false. The BSD license is not at issue; its a linear Richardson mutual security game, and companies that recognize the difference between tactical and strategic decisions will give code back to any public project, regardless of whether or not there is a license forcing them to do so. > > 5) Say a division of IBM uses FreeBSD, and a driver for > > IBM hardware is written under NDA, and the answer to any > > of #1, #2, or #3 is "no". Will the division of IBM be > > forced to use BSDI, or not have a driver for hardware > > obtained from a different division of IBM, with which the > > first division has no political clout? > > I don't quite follow this. Who, in this hypothetical scenario, > actually wrote the driver? An IBM employee. The point at issue is whether or not there is an investment in FreeBSD to permit it to use binary-only drivers for boot devices, i.e. linked into the kernel instead of dynamically loaded, and whether such an interface would be compatible with linking BSDI binary-only drivers in exactly the same way. IBM could allow publication of the ".o" file, but if FreeBSD were not arranged to be able to handle using it for a build, the release would be meaningless. One could also consider the case where BSDI has written a driver for the same hardware, but by virtue of a superior understanding of kernel internals, their driver is better (e.g. perhaps their driver is kernel reentrant, or multithreading safe, or whatever), but BSDIs driver is not availble to FreeBSD because it's one of the proprietary BSDI components. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 8: 1:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1286037BF9B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:01:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16694; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:00:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQQaqJG; Fri Mar 17 09:00:38 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16790; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:01:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003171601.JAA16790@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: This is stupid To: allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:01:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> from "Allen Campbell" at Mar 17, 2000 09:08:52 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Cruddy or not, the current install/config software persists because > nothing better has ever emerged. Not in half a decade (sysinstall.h 1.1 > Apr 27, 1995.) Thanks Jordan, it's a fine bit of work, making FreeBSD > accessible to hundreds of thousands despite ample `code free' criticism. I carefully qualified my statement in the context of a non-tech-head trying to do an install so as to not denigrate Jordans work. A new installer might emerge, if there were money in it for someone to do the work. It seems to me that the only way it can be moved forward at this point is to pay someone to do the unpleasent work, and the only way that someone will pay for this is if they can recoup their investment. It might be reasonable for the foundation to require a two year maximum trust in order to use the trademark, i.e. you can use the trademark on a derivative work that replaces the installer if you place the code in trust, and within two years (or less) of first release, the code becomes the property of the foundation. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 8:18: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D0837BF09 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:17:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03954; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:16:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:16:52 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000317004047.04182240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:47 AM 3/17/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >No. The greatest danger to the BSD's success is the attitude of >certain BSD zealots who believe that it is the one true way It isn't >and anything GPL'd must be evil. To say that it is "evil" is a bit extreme. However, one can sympathize with this view, to some extent, because it IS true that to propagate the GPL is unethical. The GPL is explicitly intended to turn open source into a weapon which hurts innocent people, and hurting people who have done you no harm is unethical by definition. So, it pays to forgive the extremists; there is some truth to what they say. >This is what kept me from >"advocating" BSD for a long time, though I could admit to liking >it. Linux has its rabid zealots, but I see no reason to imitate >them; and it's ridiculous to go about replacing the "Gates is >evil" banner of many linuxers with a "Stallman is Satan" banner. >Even if such ranting has succeeded in converting some people to >linux, it will not help BSD: Gates is a favourite target of hate >among unix people and even among the more knowledgeable people in >the dos/windows world, but Stallman is quite widely respected >even among those who don't totally subscribe to his ideology. Those who respect Stallman appear to respect the PR image which has been carefully spun for him by ESR and others. Those who know the history of the FSF and the GPL understand that they are the result of a petty grudge. RMS is not a "Satan," but he IS a pathetic figure in that he has spent the past 16 years trying to get back at some co-workers who left the MIT AI Lab to start companies. Sort of like an obsessed former spouse stalking an "ex" and vowing revenge. It's sad, not Satanic. But people need to know what really happened to see this. If they read Stallman's propaganda, or listen to the Linuxoids talk about him, they won't. >A newcomer, especially one with prior linux experience, would get >totally turned off by some of the postings on these mailing >lists. I think they'd be even more quickly turned off by gnu.misc.discuss. ;-) >On the positive side, in the year or so during which I've been >"listening in", attitudes do seem to be changing, with more >positive discussion of BSD and (slightly) less talk about the >shoddiness of linux and the sinister hidden agenda behind the >GPL. Linux isn't "shoddy," though it is of lower quality than the BSDs, IMHO. As for the agenda behind the GPL: the story DOES deserve to be told, because not becoming part of Stallman's agenda is a strong motivation to use the BSDs instead. No one likes to be used, and if one embraces the GPL then one IS being used to further Stallman's personal aims. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 8:24:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seu.edu.cn (seic3.seu.edu.cn [202.119.24.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91FF37BDDE for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsdmaillist@263.net) Received: from dryice ([202.119.9.77]) by seu.edu.cn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28066 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:23:29 +0800 (CST) Message-Id: <200003171623.AAA28066@seu.edu.cn> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 0:23:24 +0800 From: dryice liu To: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Subject: X-mailer: FoxMail 3.0 beta 2 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-chat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 8:25:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DEF37BF1A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04076; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:25:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:24:05 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003171601.JAA16790@usr06.primenet.com> References: <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:01 AM 3/17/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >A new installer might emerge, if there were money in it for >someone to do the work. It seems to me that the only way it >can be moved forward at this point is to pay someone to do >the unpleasent work, and the only way that someone will pay >for this is if they can recoup their investment. Why not just let the author of the new installer sell a few discs? ;-) >It might be reasonable for the foundation to require a two year >maximum trust in order to use the trademark, i.e. you can use >the trademark on a derivative work that replaces the installer >if you place the code in trust, and within two years (or less) >of first release, the code becomes the property of the foundation. The main problem with this is that it involves case-by-case decisions. The FreeBSD Foundation should not be involved in evaluating companies' products prior to release, because this gives WC an insuperable competitive edge. The proper way to do it is to exercise veto power, and only in extreme cases (e.g. when the use is defamatory or misleading). As you mention in an earlier message, the code WILL come to the public code base in time, because it is ultimately in the author's interest to put it there. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:20:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB86B37BF37 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1886 invoked by uid 211); 17 Mar 2000 17:19:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Mar 2000 17:19:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:49:48 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Those who respect Stallman appear to respect the PR image which > has been carefully spun for him by ESR and others. Those who know > the history of the FSF and the GPL understand that they are the > result of a petty grudge. RMS is not a "Satan," but he IS a pathetic > figure in that he has spent the past 16 years trying to get back > at some co-workers who left the MIT AI Lab to start companies. > Sort of like an obsessed former spouse stalking an "ex" and > vowing revenge. It's sad, not Satanic. But people need to > know what really happened to see this. If they read Stallman's > propaganda, or listen to the Linuxoids talk about him, they won't. Those who respect Stallman respect his work. No amount of propaganda would have earned him respect without the hard code that came with it. Whether he had a disagreement with coworkers is hardly relevant: one may as well argue against supporting OpenBSD because it started as a split from NetBSD. > Linux isn't "shoddy," though it is of lower quality than the BSDs, > IMHO. As for the agenda behind the GPL: the story DOES deserve > to be told, because not becoming part of Stallman's agenda is > a strong motivation to use the BSDs instead. No one likes to be > used, and if one embraces the GPL then one IS being used to > further Stallman's personal aims. Not at all. Linux users are thinking people, they know to what extent to agree with Stallman's ideology and to what extent not to. If they agree with him entirely, that's up to them. Some do and some don't. In any case, it is useful to have extremists like him around. If it hadn't been for the popularity of linux and the vocality of "free software" supporters, X11R6.4 may not have been free software today, Qt would almost certainly have been under a more restrictive licence, and none of the recent open source announcements would have taken place. Stallman isn't directly to be credited for all of this, but the GPL's appeal to a lot of people certainly is responsible for the wide "free software" sentiment today. Take also the ongoing discussion here about whether BSDI will have a lot of binary-only drivers under NDA to the detriment of FreeBSD. A lot of linux people will argue that the GPL protects against that sort of thing. I'm not saying they're right, only that they may want to use the GPL for good reasons of their own, without being in any way part of Stallman's "agenda". The GPL is a tool: it is not under the control of its creator. And hardly any end-users will be concerned about ideological issues of license. Arguments about license are the worst way to promote an OS, except for commercial developers to whom the fewer restrictions of BSD may really matter. BSD has enough other strengths to boast about without bringing Stallman's alleged hidden agenda into it and turning off people who may otherwise be quite open-minded about trying BSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:23:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9557E37BC7A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8512ACCD9; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:23:04 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003171601.JAA16790@usr06.primenet.com> References: <200003171601.JAA16790@usr06.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:10:51 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:01 PM +0000 2000/3/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > A new installer might emerge, if there were money in it for > someone to do the work. It seems to me that the only way it > can be moved forward at this point is to pay someone to do > the unpleasent work, and the only way that someone will pay > for this is if they can recoup their investment. Jordan has tried this route on two previous occasions, and the only positive result was some tools that they wrote in the process of attempting to write the installer, and while the installer never happened on either occasion the tools are still of interest and potentially highly useful. I don't think that going down this same road again is likely to be any more productive than it has been in the past. What I think *will* cause a new installer to be written is for someone like Jordan or Paul to decide to simply sit down, lock the door, take the phone off the hook, and have pizza and soft drinks periodically shoved under the door until such time as the code is done. > It might be reasonable for the foundation to require a two year > maximum trust in order to use the trademark, i.e. you can use > the trademark on a derivative work that replaces the installer > if you place the code in trust, and within two years (or less) > of first release, the code becomes the property of the foundation. Assuming that the project as a whole passes with their approval initially (and they get to review that decision every time there is a new major version), I think that this might be a decent balance of advantage for the developer versus the long-term common good for all. However, whether the FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation agree is another matter entirely. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:23:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F5A37BC7A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:23:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CB7CDFD; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:23:02 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38D24D9F.60C8FE21@originative.co.uk> References: <200003170129.SAA20579@usr02.primenet.com> <38D24D9F.60C8FE21@originative.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:01:14 +0100 To: Paul Richards From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: Terry Lambert , Doug Barton , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:22 PM +0000 2000/3/17, Paul Richards wrote: > Has anyone ever seen these tools? I assume they're open source if > they're going in to FreeBSD, if so it would be nice to see them. Jordan has mentioned them, but hasn't said anything more on the subject. I'd suggest talking to him. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:24: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA0AD37BDCD for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336ABCBAE; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:23:06 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> References: <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:15:04 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:24 AM -0700 2000/3/17, Brett Glass wrote: > The main problem with this is that it involves case-by-case > decisions. The FreeBSD Foundation should not be involved in > evaluating companies' products prior to release, because this > gives WC an insuperable competitive edge. The simple fact of the matter is that, in the business world, when people want to license a particular trademark for use on one of their products, they have to get the prior approval of the trademark holder -- even if the trademark holder is a direct competitor of theirs. If they want the use of the trademark badly enough, they'll live with that fact. If not, they'll go somewhere else. It's that simple. Now, for the last time, I'm going to ask you to either decide to live with this fact, or to go produce a Linux distribution AND SHUT THE *FSCK* UP!!! -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:38:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE6C37BD57 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:38:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A8612548; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:37:59 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38D26540.3AF8943F@originative.co.uk> References: <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> <38D26540.3AF8943F@originative.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:32:52 +0100 To: Paul Richards From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:02 PM +0000 2000/3/17, Paul Richards wrote: > You may think that's a good thing, but that's a whole different argument > i.e. do we want BSD to be a mainstream OS in the first place? Not > everyone does. That's a good question. Myself, I'd like to see it become much more mainstream than it is today. I don't want it to become the next Microsoft Windows (or much of anything else from that company), but I would like to see it become much more mainstream than it is today. Personally, I think this is going to happen. The marketing in the past hasn't been very good, but I think that the folks at BSD, Inc. recognize that this needs to change, and that they need to do whatever it takes to make this change. This isn't to say that they'll sell out everything that the community believes in, in order to make it a fully mainstream OS, just that they need to put some serious marketing behind the product, and let the technical side take care of itself (as it has always done). -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:39:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD4737BD6E for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:39:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05167; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:38:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:38:22 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:15 AM 3/17/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > The simple fact of the matter is that, in the business world, when people want to license a particular trademark for use on one of their products, they have to get the prior approval of the trademark holder -- even if the trademark holder is a direct competitor of theirs. Sorry, but this is not the "business world" as you know it, and the FreeBSD Foundation is not a company. The many contributors to FreeBSD did not contribute their code so that it could be managed as if it were the product of a for-profit corporation, nor did they want its use to be restricted (or they would not have contributed under the BSD license). The net effect of the policy you advocate is that FreeBSD would effectively be the exclusive property of Walnut Creek, which would have an interlocking directorate with the FreeBSD Foundation. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 9:42:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEC137BC2D for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id SAA11020 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:42:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 81A0E8863; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:47:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:47:55 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A question about BSDI/BSDOS and the merger thing. Message-ID: <20000317154755.A65642@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000316211917.A60511@keltia.freenix.fr> <38D16AFB.9682C6F8@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38D16AFB.9682C6F8@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 06:15:07PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Pedro F. Giffuni: > Their release notes state they use egcs and the latest binutils plus > some other tools of their own. Excellent, thanks for the correction. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 10:25:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CBA37BA5A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:25:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66F81226E; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:25:09 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:24:40 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:38 AM -0700 2000/3/17, Brett Glass wrote: > The net effect of the policy you advocate is that FreeBSD would effectively > be the exclusive property of Walnut Creek, which would have an interlocking > directorate with the FreeBSD Foundation. You really haven't been listening, have you? Chinese walls are a standard feature in the business world, and it is in the best interests of all the parties concerned to make sure that they really work -- otherwise, they open themselves up to potential lawsuits, etc.... For whatever reason that I can't begin to fathom, you won't hear what's been said, and you just keep spinning that same broken record. Even if you're right, then you can bring this issue up then. But you've cried wolf quite a lot, and even if there was a wolf, it couldn't possibly be more than about two days old. Assuming that this actually is a problem (which I consider highly unlikely), there is still plenty of time to deal with this problem once we see it start to become a real issue. Until then, you're wasting our time and your breath, and you're proving to more and more people just how clueless you really are, thus reducing the probability that you could have a successful product due to all the potential customers you would already have excessively annoyed. It's in your own best interests to just shut up and let this issue die. I strongly suggest that you at least wait until you've got some real evidence that this is a problem before you bring it up again. Remember the old adage that it's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and leave no doubt? Well, right now I don't think there can be much doubt about you. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 11:34:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9431C37B88A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06891; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:33:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317123145.00b601f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:33:54 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:24 AM 3/17/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: >At 10:38 AM -0700 2000/3/17, Brett Glass wrote: > >> The net effect of the policy you advocate is that FreeBSD would effectively >> be the exclusive property of Walnut Creek, which would have an interlocking >> directorate with the FreeBSD Foundation. > > You really haven't been listening, have you? Chinese walls are a standard feature in the business world, No, they're a standard SCAM in the business world. Even Microsoft has dropped the pretense that there is, as they once claimed, a "Chinese wall" between application development and OS development. > Remember the old adage that it's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and leave no doubt? Well, right now I don't think there can be much doubt about you. Ad hominem attacks will only embarrass you and weaken your arguments. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 11:39:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EEC37B578 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:39:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06934; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:38:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317123523.04194670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:37:56 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Paul Richards From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <38D26540.3AF8943F@originative.co.uk> <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> <38D26540.3AF8943F@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:32 AM 3/17/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > Personally, I think this is going to happen. The marketing in > the past hasn't been very good, but I think that the folks at BSD, Inc. > recognize that this needs to change, and that they need to do whatever it > takes to make this change. I don't know about this. BSDI has been one of the most low-profile outfits in the industry, and many folks at Walnut Creek seem to be allergic to evangelism. I think that only in the presence of multiple distributions will BSD become more popular. --Brett Glass Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12: 1:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA0537B7BE for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07216; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:00:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317123838.00b58410@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:39:36 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:12 AM 3/17/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: >At 5:56 PM -0700 2000/3/16, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Market forces should take care of products of poor quality; > > However, we know for a fact that this simply doesn't happen -- witness Microsoft, the prime example of marketing over substance. In a market where consumers are frequently ignoranct of what constitutes product quality. This is not so in the UNIX world. --Brett Glass Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12: 1:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC2F37B701 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07219; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:00:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:00:32 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:19 AM 3/17/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Those who respect Stallman respect his work. No amount of >propaganda would have earned him respect without the hard code >that came with it. Interestingly, most of the programs for which Stallman is given credit were revamped, partially or entirely, by other programmers before they reached acceptable levels of quality. GCC is a good example. The FSF policy of insisting on owning all rights to the code perpetuates this by hiding the identities of the contributors (since their names don't appear in copyright notices). Thus, the FSF and Stallman get credit while the person who wrote that "hard code" generally remains unknown and unsung. A great PR scheme. > Whether he had a disagreement with coworkers >is hardly relevant: one may as well argue against supporting >OpenBSD because it started as a split from NetBSD. Not so. The GPL was intended as a weapon against not only his former co-workers but also all commercial software developers, whom he demonized one and all. The GPL is the instrument of Stallman's 16-year-old vendetta against commercial programmers and their livelihoods. > > Linux isn't "shoddy," though it is of lower quality than the BSDs, > > IMHO. As for the agenda behind the GPL: the story DOES deserve > > to be told, because not becoming part of Stallman's agenda is > > a strong motivation to use the BSDs instead. No one likes to be > > used, and if one embraces the GPL then one IS being used to > > further Stallman's personal aims. > >Not at all. Linux users are thinking people, they know to what >extent to agree with Stallman's ideology and to what extent not >to. If they agree with him entirely, that's up to them. Some do >and some don't. The majority don't even know what the GPL says. Take a straw poll yourself. >In any case, it is useful to have extremists like him around. If >it hadn't been for the popularity of linux and the vocality of >"free software" supporters, X11R6.4 may not have been free >software today, The fact is that there would have been a fork regardless, because too many people depended upon that code. Stallman used the event as an opportunity to attack BSD licensing and promote the GPL -- again, to further his agenda. >Qt would almost certainly have been under a more >restrictive licence, IMHO, basing KDE on Qt was a mistake to begin with. Had Qt not been released under a different license, this might have been fixed and the result would have been better. >and none of the recent open source >announcements would have taken place. Which one(s)? >Stallman isn't directly to >be credited for all of this, but the GPL's appeal to a lot of >people certainly is responsible for the wide "free software" >sentiment today. You haven't shown cause and effect. The fact that Linux is licensed under the GPL does not mean that the GPL was responsible for its success. Likewise, the appeal of open source can be said to be a result of Linux, but not the GPL. The GPL actually hurts open source by putting it at odds with commercial ventures and commercial developers. >Take also the ongoing discussion here about whether BSDI will >have a lot of binary-only drivers under NDA to the detriment of >FreeBSD. I'm sure that any such drivers will be usable with FreeBSD as well. I prefer open source drivers but have no problem with binary-only ones. After all, if the manufacturer doesn't want people to improve his or her code, he or she is taking a substantial risk that people will reject the product due to poor driver quality. If he or she is willing to assume that risk in return for making it tougher to reverse engineer his work, fine. >A lot of linux people will argue that the GPL protects >against that sort of thing. If they said such a thing, it'd be completely bogus, since Linux allows binary drivers. >Arguments about license are the worst way to promote an >OS, It's a key reason that *I* use BSD. The GPL is, again, unethical. I feel that the BSDs are themselves sullied a bit by using the GNU toolchain, but alas the GPL had already begun to destroy alternatives before the BSDs were released by Berkeley. >except for commercial developers to whom the fewer >restrictions of BSD may really matter. BSD has enough other >strengths to boast about without bringing Stallman's alleged >hidden agenda into it Stallman's agenda is not hidden. It is publicly stated in his writings and speeches. He favors the destruction of commercial software developers, the reduction of programmers' compensation, and the abolition of artists' and authors rights. To support the GPL is to support this. --Brett Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:15: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3709237B5BD for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12W39B-000HgC-00; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:15:01 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20866; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:15:00 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:15:00 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 01:00:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How does he suggest that people who love programming make a living? Waiting tables on the weekends? :( I'm going to school because i hope to make a living doing what i love, and getting paid for it, even if that pay is modest in comparison to other fields. jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which." -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:20: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FAD837B637 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r3.bfm.org [216.127.220.99]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:20:22 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317141314.00a36630@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:13:14 -0600 To: Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:00 17-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >Stallman's agenda is not hidden. It is publicly stated in his >writings and speeches. He favors the destruction of commercial >software developers, the reduction of programmers' compensation, >and the abolition of artists' and authors rights. Very sad, and very true. The strangest thing about Stalin (Stallman literally translated into Russian) is that he insists that programmers will continue to be paid when his world order takes over. The man lives in an ivory tower, me thinks. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:28:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4876037B6E5 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r3.bfm.org [216.127.220.99]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:28:43 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317142138.00af7940@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:21:38 -0600 To: J McKitrick , Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:15 17-03-2000 +0000, J McKitrick wrote: >How does he suggest that people who love programming make a living? >Waiting tables on the weekends? :( >I'm going to school because i hope to make a living doing what i love, >and getting paid for it, even if that pay is modest in comparison to >other fields. I wipe butts for a living. Literally! While my software is used all over the world, I work for near-minimum wage as a nursing assistant, caring for people with disabilities. My duties include cleaning them up whenever they are incontinent. For years, I was trying the shareware marketing approach, but no one felt like paying for shareware, no doubt part because of the attitude pushed by Stalin. I know it was not because my software was not successful. Indeed, I was quite a celebrity on Fidonet about a decade ago. At that time I experienced a total burn-out, and did not even program for several years. Hopefully, this is about to change. It appears with the growth of the Internet it is again possible to make money by letting people download your software and actually pay for it. Cheers, Adam ===> Whiz Kid Technomagic <=== http://www.whizkidtech.net/ The resource center for webmasters and web users Winner of the Starting Point Hot Site award Winner of the Lighthouse Award Home of the Web Magic Award To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:41:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from doorman.brann.org (remote-brann-gw.nyc.dsl.access.net [166.84.145.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCBE37B815 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:41:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@brann.org) Received: from freebie.brann.org (freebie.brann.org [10.0.0.2]) by doorman.brann.org (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24070; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from john@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA86598; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:41:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:41:25 -0500 From: John Brann To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000317154125.A86459@freebie.brann.org> References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 03:30:54PM -0500 Organization: Not while I'm at home X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-20000105-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In my case it was Mr. Protocol's doing that I began my BSD using career. I'd just decided (in early '95) to jump into home UNIX(-like) use, and was looking at Slackware, when I read the 'Ask Mr. Protocol' column (it runs in 'Server/Workstation Expert') which talked about that exact subject. Mike O'Brien, who writes the column, made some convincing arguments about the FreeBSD project being more focused than the Linux efforts. My first experiments with LILO were enough to convince me that FreeBSD might be worth looking at. I still have the 2.0CD, which I could never use because I had put a new- fangled Adaptec 2940 in my shiny new Pentium 60 box. As a consequence, my first FreeBSD system was a 2.0.5-SNAP from sometime in March '95. The case, memory disk and SCSI controller from that machine are still in use in a firewall machine. I'm celebrating 5 years of continuous, more than satisfied, use of FreeBSD, while looking forward to the exciting possibilities of the new BSDI. I've been a professional software developer for more than 15 years and I can't think of a single other piece of software that I've used, in that time, that combines innovation, reliability and robustness in the way that FreeBSD has. Dammit, I'm not sure I can remember another piece of software I've used for five years straight without either throwing it out or wishing I could. John -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger john@doorman.brann.org for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:42:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 2552737B97C; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B6D2E8155; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:42:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:42:30 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Kris Kirby , Ben Smithurst , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while In-Reply-To: <20000317150412.4249.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > Should have mentioned that I'm downloadinf with > windows....ppp's not really up yet. As much as I hate to tell you about tools which will make your "windows experience" more enjoyable and perhaps delay your total migration to FreeBSD: gozilla. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:45: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE2B37B66B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07854; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:44:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317134301.00b5ae20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:44:39 -0700 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , J McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317142138.00af7940@mail85.pair.com> References: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:21 PM 3/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >I wipe butts for a living. Literally! While my software is used all over >the world, I work for near-minimum wage as a nursing assistant, caring for >people with disabilities. My duties include cleaning them up whenever they >are incontinent. You're a saint. >For years, I was trying the shareware marketing approach, but no one felt >like paying for shareware, no doubt part because of the attitude pushed by >Stalin. I know it was not because my software was not successful. Indeed, I >was quite a celebrity on Fidonet about a decade ago. At that time I >experienced a total burn-out, and did not even program for several years. > >Hopefully, this is about to change. It appears with the growth of the >Internet it is again possible to make money by letting people download your >software and actually pay for it. True. The trick, as I see it, is to add value in a way that is difficult for someone like Stallman to undermine. I have some ideas for that.... Interested in becoming part of a new company? --Brett Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:45: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDC137BD20 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:45:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07849; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:44:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317134013.00b602f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:41:13 -0700 To: J McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:15 PM 3/17/2000 , J McKitrick wrote: >How does he suggest that people who love programming make a living? >Waiting tables on the weekends? :( Working for slave wages in academia. Or doing tech support or maintenance programming. See "The GNU Manfesto," where Stallman advocates that high salaries for programmers be "banned." --Brett Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:54: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA6937B7B6 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12W3kk-000H46-00; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:53:50 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21195; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:53:50 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:53:50 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: John Brann Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000317205350.E20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> <20000317154125.A86459@freebie.brann.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000317154125.A86459@freebie.brann.org>; from john@brann.org on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:41:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What do you consider 'innovative' in FreeBSD recently? jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which." -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 12:55:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD54837B555 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:55:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (net-093143.cho.cstone.net [209.145.93.143]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:50:42 -0500 Message-ID: <38D29DF1.8C593E6D@cstone.net> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:04:50 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> <20000317154125.A86459@freebie.brann.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In my case, it was one of the local FreeBSD fanatics that got me into it. I got promoted to the engineering department of the ISP I was working tech support at. The ISP itself was running mostly FreeBSD machines, and my mentor, Adrian, taught me why it was so good. I quickly became yet another advocate, despite the pro-Linux people in my apartment and as my friends - as one crusty old AIX admin/Linux proponent likes to always say about the *BSDs - "I'll rent you a ps to replace your g-------d broken ps." :-) SeanMike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13: 5:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from doorman.brann.org (remote-brann-gw.nyc.dsl.access.net [166.84.145.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247E437B88B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@brann.org) Received: from freebie.brann.org (freebie.brann.org [10.0.0.2]) by doorman.brann.org (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24137; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from john@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA86741; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:05:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:05:15 -0500 From: John Brann To: J McKitrick Cc: John Brann , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000317160515.A86674@freebie.brann.org> References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> <20000317154125.A86459@freebie.brann.org> <20000317205350.E20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000317205350.E20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 08:53:50PM +0000 Organization: Not while I'm at home X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-20000105-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 08:53:50PM +0000, J McKitrick wrote: > What do you consider 'innovative' in FreeBSD recently? > > jm > -- > -------------------------------------------- > Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org > "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, > and i didn't care which." > -------------------------------------------- The biggies for me (as an observer) are still the VM system and softupdates. Admittedly that may not be recent in Internet Time (TM), but they represent significant achievements. I watch the current- list and the process of re-engineering which has gone into the newbus effort, the PC-CARD work (and CAM before those) represents, to me, innovation of the most useful kind. Is it ground-breaking in the way that a working PDA was when it appeared - a revolution in the way that we think about computing - no, but that's not what FreeBSD is for. I'm sure Terry Lambert would fulminate about my choices, and call down the judgement of heaven on the lack of orthogonality in the file-system stacking layers, but he too, represents a source of innovative thinking (and fine email commentary) in FreeBSD. John -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger john@doorman.brann.org for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13: 7:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F3E37B866 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38D29DF0-353E, Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:04:48 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:04:48 +0000 Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <38D29DF0.353E@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:04:48 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett G. wrote: >At 01:21 PM 3/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> I wipe butts for a living. Literally! While my software is >> used all over the world, I work for near-minimum wage as a nursing >> assistant, caring for people with disabilities. My duties include >> cleaning them up whenever they are incontinent. > > You're a saint. Brett, I hope you did not mean to be as patronising as that sounds. I'm a nurse (psychiatric, but I've done my share of shit-shovelling), and that sort of remark really pisses me off. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13: 9:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19EDB37B815 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r3.bfm.org [216.127.220.99]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:10:02 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317150258.00a362f0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:02:58 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317134301.00b5ae20@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20000317142138.00af7940@mail85.pair.com> <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:44 17-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >You're a saint. Hehe. It's a job. And I do like helping others. It also keeps my mind off bits and bytes every so often, so I don't forget my humanity. :) >True. The trick, as I see it, is to add value in a way that is difficult >for someone like Stallman to undermine. I have some ideas for that.... >Interested in becoming part of a new company? I might be. Though I am determined to make it on my own very fast now. I have worked on some image editing routines for a couple of years, written in pute assembly language. I have created a suite of Photoshop plug-ins that use them (still in beta), and will offer two versions: A free one for anyone to grab, and a "pro" one available to those who register. Yes, I believe this has an added value that Stallman cannot undermine: It is in assembly language, so it is very fast and requires very little memory. It is for Windows only at this time, but I coded it in NASM syntax with ifedfs included, so once it is fully tested, I can reassemble it for FreeBSD as well. Another added value, which stems from the first, is that it contains many effects, virtually unlimited, so I can market a single Photoshop plug-in that can produce thousands of different effects. I have resisted the temptation of splitting it up into a number of plug-ins and marketing each separately. That might bring me more money, but I am only interested in making a decent living, not necessarily in milking as much as possible. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:16: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ACDB37B883 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r3.bfm.org [216.127.220.99]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:16:21 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317150919.00a56450@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:09:19 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317134013.00b602f0@localhost> References: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:41 17-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >>How does he suggest that people who love programming make a living? >>Waiting tables on the weekends? :( > >Working for slave wages in academia. Or doing tech support or maintenance >programming. See "The GNU Manfesto," where Stallman advocates that >high salaries for programmers be "banned." Which is why I suggested he lives in ivory tower, though "Ivy tower" might have been more appropriate. As I mentioned in a private email to someone, the main problem with his idea of tech support and maintenance is that software written to be easy to use and with (almost) no bugs requires minimum maintenance or tech support. So, Stalin is actually advocating that we write sloppy software. In that way, he should consider Microsoft his best disciple. :) Cheers, Adam ===> Whiz Kid Technomagic <=== http://www.whizkidtech.net/ The resource center for webmasters and web users Winner of the Starting Point Hot Site award Winner of the Lighthouse Award Home of the Web Magic Award To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:16:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501F137B714 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:16:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08801; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:16:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyRayir; Fri Mar 17 14:16:18 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20845; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:16:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003172116.OAA20845@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: This is stupid To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:16:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Mar 17, 2000 06:10:51 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > A new installer might emerge, if there were money in it for > > someone to do the work. It seems to me that the only way it > > can be moved forward at this point is to pay someone to do > > the unpleasent work, and the only way that someone will pay > > for this is if they can recoup their investment. > > Jordan has tried this route on two previous occasions, and the > only positive result was some tools that they wrote in the process of > attempting to write the installer, and while the installer never > happened on either occasion the tools are still of interest and > potentially highly useful. > > I don't think that going down this same road again is likely to > be any more productive than it has been in the past. I was talking about a third party paying for the work and being permitted to distribute CDROM copies of the work to recoup their investment. My personal presference would be fore something similar to my proposal for software patents being the general rule for use of the trademark: o By default, you get no protection o If you file a source escrow, you are protected for 2 years, and may volunteer for a shorter term o After the term of the S-patent (in this case, the terms of the trademark usage license), your code goes into the public domain from the escrow (or rights are assigned to the FreeBSD Foundation) I personally would remove patent and copyright protection from all software, in favor of this approach, since the software industry operates at a much higher pace than the industries that process patents were originally designed to protect. I have yet to see a 10 year wait while the FSA decides whether a new piece of software is safe for the public... > What I think *will* cause a new installer to be written is for > someone like Jordan or Paul to decide to simply sit down, lock the > door, take the phone off the hook, and have pizza and soft drinks > periodically shoved under the door until such time as the code is > done. Or if someone is hired by Brett to do the work, sits down, locks the door, and prostitutes their coding talents working on something unglamorous in exchange for money, as all us professional code hacks do at one time or another (only unpaid code hacks can retain their amatuer status, and compete in the Olympics). > > It might be reasonable for the foundation to require a two year > > maximum trust in order to use the trademark, i.e. you can use > > the trademark on a derivative work that replaces the installer > > if you place the code in trust, and within two years (or less) > > of first release, the code becomes the property of the foundation. > > Assuming that the project as a whole passes with their approval > initially (and they get to review that decision every time there is a > new major version), I think that this might be a decent balance of > advantage for the developer versus the long-term common good for all. > > However, whether the FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation > agree is another matter entirely. And they are unlikely to see all of this on -chat, in any case. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:30:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EFD37B8C6 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:30:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19225; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:29:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAcKa4FL; Fri Mar 17 14:29:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21283; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:30:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003172130.OAA21283@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: j_mckitrick@bigfoot.com (J McKitrick) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:30:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "J McKitrick" at Mar 17, 2000 08:15:00 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How does he suggest that people who love programming make a living? > Waiting tables on the weekends? :( There are two possibilities: 1) You are not a professional programmer, but a hobbiest, and you write code because you enjoy doing it. You don't get paid for it, the same as a painter should not be paid for his art, because a dilletante should have to do honest work for their money. 2) You work in a job-shop, where groups of companies band together to pay code-whores to make changes to exisiting programs, and, very rarely, to get them to write new code, but all this code is released into the public domain (patent and copyright law having been abolished, and shipping binaries without source having been made a capitol offense). 3) You are Richard Stallman or some other ivory tower type who is paid to do Real Computer Science Research(tm) for the sake of the research itself; a member of a tiny cadre of Professor Emerti, gradual students, and plain old students with too much time on their hands because they are taking fewer credit hours than they should be taking to make effective use of the money Society owns and is investing in them for the benefit of the future of Society. I think that's about all there is to it... > I'm going to school because i hope to make a living doing what i love, > and getting paid for it, even if that pay is modest in comparison to > other fields. Some would say that the amount of money there is in High Technology these day is attracting a large number of people who are passing Colledge with the minimum effort, turning degrees into something more akin to Union Cards, and thereafter flooding the market with people with credentials who are unable to actually solve problems using computers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:37:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0E137B714 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:37:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02494; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:36:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMPayRe; Fri Mar 17 14:36:47 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21560; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:37:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003172137.OAA21560@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while To: john@brann.org (John Brann) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:37:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org (J McKitrick), john@brann.org (John Brann), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000317160515.A86674@freebie.brann.org> from "John Brann" at Mar 17, 2000 04:05:15 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The biggies for me (as an observer) are still the VM system and softupdates. > Admittedly that may not be recent in Internet Time (TM), but they represent > significant achievements. > > I watch the current- list and the process of re-engineering which has gone > into the newbus effort, the PC-CARD work (and CAM before those) represents, to > me, innovation of the most useful kind. Is it ground-breaking in the way > that a working PDA was when it appeared - a revolution in the way that we > think about computing - no, but that's not what FreeBSD is for. > > I'm sure Terry Lambert would fulminate about my choices, and call down the > judgement of heaven on the lack of orthogonality in the file-system stacking > layers, but he too, represents a source of innovative thinking (and fine > email commentary) in FreeBSD. Since my employer paid for the Soft Updates port, and since Soft Updates was my suggestion on how to get rid of the heavy and expensive UPS in the first generation product, and since I was involved in the initial integration work, trouble shooting, etc., I'm unlikely to call down the Wrath Of God on you for soft updates. That said, it could have been done somewhat differently, which would have allowed exporting a transactioning interface to user space via a stacking layer, and that would have been quite a coup for support of databases which currently have to use raw partitions and do their own transaction tracking on systems without one... 8-p Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:39:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB1837B724 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000317213929.MYUV2617.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:39:29 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Tim'" , Subject: RE: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:37:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf9059$0efb42e0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <38D29DF0.353E@funbox.demon.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim, I think your prejudice is coloring your perception. I've got two grandmothers in nursing homes who require that someone care for them just as Adam provides care for his patients. When I read Brett saying Adam was a saint I heard no sarcasm at all. John Purser *********************************************************************** Currently boycotting Amazon.com To find out why visit: http://perl.oreilly.com/cgi-bin/amazon_patent.comments.pl For an alternative visit: http://www.powells.com/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of do not reply to this address Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 1:05 PM To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Brett G. wrote: >At 01:21 PM 3/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> I wipe butts for a living. Literally! While my software is >> used all over the world, I work for near-minimum wage as a nursing >> assistant, caring for people with disabilities. My duties include >> cleaning them up whenever they are incontinent. > > You're a saint. Brett, I hope you did not mean to be as patronising as that sounds. I'm a nurse (psychiatric, but I've done my share of shit-shovelling), and that sort of remark really pisses me off. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:40:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.exitexchange.com (www.exitexchange.com [206.58.218.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478C237B760; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:40:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@exitexchange.com) Received: from exitexchange.com ([206.58.218.112]) by www.exitexchange.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA20631; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:51:16 -0800 Message-Id: <200003141351.FAA20631@www.exitexchange.com> Received: from reg@exitexchange.com by (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA07521 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 05:00:35 -0600 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 00 05:00:35 EST From: "Registration Information" To: reg@exitexchange.com Subject: Re: Registration of domain with ExitExchange.com Reply-To: reg@exitexchange.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's how to register. ExitExchange is the fastest way to grow your website. Every time someone leaves your website ExitExchange sends you new traffic. More effective than banners, ExitExchange actually brings real traffic right to your front door. Whether you're a large corporation or just a single homepage, there has never been an easier way to promote your website. Experience the explosive growth you've been dreaming of for your website. Put the power of the ExitExchange Orbit Network™ to work for you and start counting the hits immediately. Ohhh... and did we mention it's absolutely FREE! Sign up is simple and takes just a few minutes (literally). Come take our Quick Tour and see for yourself how easy it is to Get Big, Real Big, Really Fast with ExitExchange.com http://www.exitexchange.com Sincerely, ExitExchange Registration Services "Never Say Goodbye To Your Traffic Again" /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// One time mailing, no need for removal. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:46:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C1837B64F for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12W4Zr-000KIH-00; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:46:39 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA22023; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:46:39 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:46:39 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000317214639.B21627@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200003172130.OAA21283@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003172130.OAA21283@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 09:30:31PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 09:30:31PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > people with credentials who are unable to actually solve problems > using computers. I see this all the time in class. I actually posted a comment of that sort to one of my profs, who is going to use the comment in a paper. There seem to be so many people anxious and able to write 'Insta-Ware' with Visual tools, but they actually lack the fundamental understanding of problem solving and how it applies to computers. It's like the difference between a CAD class and a class in Computer Engineering Graphics. One teaches how to draw on a computer, the other teaches how to engineer with said tool. I hope to be different when i graduate. jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which." -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:50:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from doorman.brann.org (remote-brann-gw.nyc.dsl.access.net [166.84.145.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE3537B713 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@brann.org) Received: from freebie.brann.org (freebie.brann.org [10.0.0.2]) by doorman.brann.org (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24274; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from john@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA87051; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:50:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:50:34 -0500 From: John Brann To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000317165034.B86459@freebie.brann.org> References: <20000317160515.A86674@freebie.brann.org> <200003172137.OAA21560@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003172137.OAA21560@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 09:37:27PM +0000 Organization: Not while I'm at home X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-20000105-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 09:37:27PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [...SNIP...] > > > > I'm sure Terry Lambert would fulminate about my choices, and call down the > > judgement of heaven on the lack of orthogonality in the file-system stacking > > layers, but he too, represents a source of innovative thinking (and fine > > email commentary) in FreeBSD. > > Since my employer paid for the Soft Updates port, and since Soft > Updates was my suggestion on how to get rid of the heavy and > expensive UPS in the first generation product, and since I was > involved in the initial integration work, trouble shooting, etc., > I'm unlikely to call down the Wrath Of God on you for soft updates. > > That said, it could have been done somewhat differently, which would > have allowed exporting a transactioning interface to user space via > a stacking layer, and that would have been quite a coup for support > of databases which currently have to use raw partitions and do their > own transaction tracking on systems without one... > > 8-p > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > I love it when a plan comes together - thanks for justifying my faith in you, Terry :) Incidentally, I agree wholeheartedly with your point about the value of a transactioning interface. It's also useful in the queue middleware world (where I earn my crust) - producing something like IBM's MQSeries, but lighter in weight - becomes a snip with the ability to rely on a disk transaction. I have fond memories of working with the Stratus VOS OS which had just such a facility. John -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger john@doorman.brann.org for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 13:58:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2AB337B58C for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA20944; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:58:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA9xay4O; Fri Mar 17 14:58:20 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22020; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:58:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003172158.OAA22020@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:58:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 17, 2000 10:49:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Take also the ongoing discussion here about whether BSDI will > have a lot of binary-only drivers under NDA to the detriment of > FreeBSD. A lot of linux people will argue that the GPL protects > against that sort of thing. I'm not saying they're right, only > that they may want to use the GPL for good reasons of their own, > without being in any way part of Stallman's "agenda". Actually, as a participant in that discussion, I have to say that the GPL does not protect against it. If an NDA is required for the hardware information, then there would simply not be a GPL'ed driver. It would not force release of the programming information, nor GPL'ing of a released driver, which amounts to the same thing. As long as it is possible to avoid th GPL, commercial interests will do so, for as long as they have investments to recoup. > The GPL is a tool: it is not under the control of its creator. > And hardly any end-users will be concerned about ideological > issues of license. Arguments about license are the worst way to > promote an OS, You mean detract from an OS. > except for commercial developers to whom the fewer restrictions > of BSD may really matter. BSD has enough other strengths to boast > about without bringing Stallman's alleged hidden agenda into it > and turning off people who may otherwise be quite open-minded > about trying BSD. The people who say "Don't use Linux because it is GPL'ed" are idiots. At the same time, so are the people who say that the GPL is not an instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto (technically a poor one; the Cygnus eCOS license is actually a much better instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto). So people who say "Use Linux because it is GPL'ed" are also idiots. I can believe that, for example, membership in the Itzamuzu religion is the greatest thing because of their high moral stance, derived from their scriptures. That doesn't relieve me of the responsibility that the scripture of this religion technically requires human sacrifice of non-Itzamuzuites proportional to their availability in the local community (i.e. one out of 12) every 213 years. Just because it is year 75 in the cycle I joined up in, doesn't mean that I should zeolously recruit other Itzamuzuites without considering that in 138 years, their descendants might repeat the atrocities of 1925. One has to think of the consequences of ones actions before they engage in them, or they should be prepared to be criticized for not doing so. Part of adopting the GPL is implicit support for the majority GNU manifesto. It's not support for the whole thing (as I said, it's a poor instrumentality), but it's support for a large enough part of it that you should read it before advocating GPL to others. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:19:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E8737B6EF for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:19:28 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:19:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf905e$dc185150$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <200003172130.OAA21283@usr02.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Some would say that the amount of money there is in High Technology > these day is attracting a large number of people who are passing > Colledge with the minimum effort, turning degrees into something > more akin to Union Cards, and thereafter flooding the market with > people with credentials who are unable to actually solve problems > using computers. Exactly! And that means more messes for the truly competent programmers to be paid to clean up. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:21:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF55537B553 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:21:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09318; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:21:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317151838.00b66da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:21:11 -0700 To: tim.634@funbox.demon.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <38D29DF0.353E@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:04 PM 3/17/2000 , Tim Jackson wrote: Geeze.... Try to compliment someone and inevitably he or she will find some way to take it wrong. --Brett >Brett G. wrote: > > >At 01:21 PM 3/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > >> I wipe butts for a living. Literally! While my software is > >> used all over the world, I work for near-minimum wage as a nursing > >> assistant, caring for people with disabilities. My duties include > >> cleaning them up whenever they are incontinent. > > > > You're a saint. > >Brett, > >I hope you did not mean to be as patronising as that sounds. >I'm a nurse (psychiatric, but I've done my share of shit-shovelling), >and that sort of remark really pisses me off. > >-- Tim Jackson >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k >======================================================================== > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:29:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2247337B532 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:29:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09459; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:29:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317152203.00b57b70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:29:17 -0700 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317150258.00a362f0@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.2.2.20000317134301.00b5ae20@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000317142138.00af7940@mail85.pair.com> <20000317201500.B20791@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317090329.041ccde0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:02 PM 3/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >At 13:44 17-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >You're a saint. > >Hehe. It's a job. And I do like helping others. It also keeps my mind off >bits and bytes every so often, so I don't forget my humanity. :) Well, I'm always impressed and at times amazed by the dedication of nurses. There's such a high rate of burnout, and upward mobility can seem hopelessly limited by the humongous chasm between nurse and doctor. It's important to express appreciation for the work nurses do. > >True. The trick, as I see it, is to add value in a way that is difficult > >for someone like Stallman to undermine. I have some ideas for that.... > >Interested in becoming part of a new company? > >I might be. Though I am determined to make it on my own very fast now. I >have worked on some image editing routines for a couple of years, written >in pute assembly language. I'm an ASM hacker myself. Have you played with MMX? >I have created a suite of Photoshop plug-ins >that use them (still in beta), and will offer two versions: A free one for >anyone to grab, and a "pro" one available to those who register. > >Yes, I believe this has an added value that Stallman cannot undermine: It >is in assembly language, so it is very fast and requires very little >memory. It is for Windows only at this time, but I coded it in NASM syntax >with ifedfs included, so once it is fully tested, I can reassemble it for >FreeBSD as well. I'd love to see some of this. >Another added value, which stems from the first, is that it contains many >effects, virtually unlimited, so I can market a single Photoshop plug-in >that can produce thousands of different effects. I have resisted the >temptation of splitting it up into a number of plug-ins and marketing each >separately. That might bring me more money, but I am only interested in >making a decent living, not necessarily in milking as much as possible. An effects "engine" could have great value. Especially if there were a way to let people generate plug-ins for your plug-in, so to speak. --Brett Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft. -- Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:33:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC3037B6F5 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat27.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.219]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id AAA19773; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:33:39 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11147; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:17:54 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:17:54 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Message-ID: <20000317131754.C10194@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003162031.PAA24296@rac1.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 03:30:54PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 03:30:54PM -0500, James Howard wrote: > > So what I am saying here is thank you for making such a kick ass > system and I'd love to hear about other's first expereinces with > FreeBSD, or BSD if you are older. In fact, I was born in December of > 1979, if someone has a first BSD story that predates that, I would be > endlessly amused. Despite the fact that my real age (I was born in 1976) has no relation whatsoever with my, err, 'FreeBSD age', I'll drop a note, thank you :) I'd been using Linux since early Slackware versions. Having been used to the 'Slackware way' of things, the later distributions of Linux (call me RedHat, Mandrake, SuSE, or what-have-you) were not much appealing to my taste. On the other hand I knew that Slackware was influenced by BSD in some things [ok, ok, runlevels are no-BSD-thing, I know]. It was OpenBSD that I initially tried to install from a CDROM borrowed from one of my friends. I tried setting the thing up on a spare partition of my hard disk, in September 1999 (yup, less than one year ago). Now, imagine my frustration when I managed to trash the partition table of my disk, when my last backup of my home PC was dated May 1999! Now, when one has a completely trashed and empty disk, one's got to do something about it. So I installed a minimal Slackware on a partition of my disk, dialed into my usual PPP connection, downloaded the installation disks of FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE, and well.. the rest is easy for you to guess, since now my disk has only BSD on it. - Giorgos Keramidas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:34:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2A337B6A7 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:34:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat27.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.219]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id AAA19779; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:33:57 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10876; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:48:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:48:37 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions Message-ID: <20000317124836.A10194@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <200003161046.LAA36557@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; <20000316130751.I759@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <200003162250.OAA28180@ocis.ocis.net> <20000316235012.F248@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: message body X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000316235012.F248@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:50:12PM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:50:12PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:49:44PM -0800, Freddie Cash wrote: > > > > JOOC, what is the progression in the non-Americas for 10^3 - > > 10^12? > > > > Here in Canada, it's: > > 10^3 thousand > > 10^6 million > > 10^9 billion > > 10^12 trillion > > So Canada subscribes to the US belief in short measure :) Actually this is closer to the notion of the respective Greek words for multiples of 1000. For example, 10,000 things are called 'muria'. Then, 10e+6 things are called 1 ekatomurio where the prefix 'ekato' means 100 (10e+6 = 100 * 10,000). After that, what we use is 10,000 = murio | deprecated ancient greek word 10e+6 = ekatommurio | 'ekato' = 100; 100 * 10,000 10e+9 = disekatommurio | 'dis', 'duo' => 2, i.e bi-llion 10e+12 = trisekatommurio | 'tris', 'tria' => 3; i.e. tri-llion This does not mean that what the US/Canada/Greece uses is the One True Way(TM) of naming numbers. I'm just trying to throw in an elaborate 'me too' posting, which someone might find useful, somewhere, sometime. For those interested in the strange duplication of 'm' in ekatommurio, it is because 100 in ancient greek was 'ekaton', and the 'n' at the end of the word somehow got mutated into an 'm' in front of the starting 'm' in 'murion'. Well, there you go... - Giorgos Keramidas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:41: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id EF49537B521; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0D12E814A; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:41:00 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Will Andrews , Kelly Yancey , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why not gzip iso images? In-Reply-To: <20000317170149.F25438@jade.chc-chimes.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: > If our intent was to make installation a living hell, then yes this an > excellent idea. An ISO is a single file to download / burn and is the > most straightforward way of making your installation media. > > Everyone from the guru to the warez monkey understands burning an ISO. This is a stupid thread :) I was replying to someone who claimed (something like) that being able to download an ISO was the best solution for a box which doesn't have direct net access (or somehting like that, don't flame me if I got it wrong). Nobody is advocating removing either the ISO or the binary install path..I've just been trying to point out that you don't always have to download the ISO and in fact it's probably a waste to do so unless you have good connectivity. I wonder if there are some people who have been talking about ISO images on the lists lately who don't realise you can install FreeBSD with much reduced download requirements. Can we move this thread to -chat where it belongs? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 14:54:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne005m.server-mail.com (bne005m.server-mail.com [202.139.234.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EF2F37B6EF for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 21767 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2000 22:53:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.165.223) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2000 22:53:56 -0000 Message-ID: <001801bf9064$7af3f180$dfa593cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:59:31 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The world is weird in it's ways...I'm downloading the ISO image for 4.0 > > right now..It > > s taking me all week over my 56k, but who's counting? > > heh. Yeah I considered that, but realised that the first CD does have some important ports and stuff might come in handy. And besides, someone else might wanna borrow it when I'm done. I've only got 12 hours left anywayz.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 15: 4: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8964537B87E for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:04:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.25.175] (dialup687.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.175]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A6112365; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:04:00 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317123145.00b601f0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317123145.00b601f0@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:02:19 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:33 PM -0700 2000/3/17, Brett Glass wrote: > No, they're a standard SCAM in the business world. Even Microsoft has dropped > the pretense that there is, as they once claimed, a "Chinese wall" between > application development and OS development. You haven't been listening, have you? Perhaps some businesses don't implement them correctly, but plenty do. It all depends on the company, the nature of the contracts that are signed requiring the Chinese walls, etc.... To use Microsoft as a counter-example that they never work in any situation is an exceptionally poor choice of strawman. You can do better than that! -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 15: 4:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AD337BA39 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.25.175] (dialup687.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.175]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7621C122B6; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:04:03 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317123523.04194670@localhost> References: <38D26540.3AF8943F@originative.co.uk> <4.2.2.20000315174932.03efa380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000316174913.041235e0@localhost> <38D26540.3AF8943F@originative.co.uk> <4.2.2.20000317123523.04194670@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:03:46 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Paul Richards From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:37 PM -0700 2000/3/17, Brett Glass wrote: > I think that only in the presence of > multiple distributions will BSD become more popular. Riiiiiiiight. So you're God, and you're going to save the Universe, and make it safe for The One True OS, which is the one for which you claim to be the creator. Riiiiiiiiight. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 15: 4:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne005m.server-mail.com (bne005m.server-mail.com [202.139.234.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E73937BAD3 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:04:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 23656 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2000 23:04:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.165.223) by bne005m.server-mail.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2000 23:04:21 -0000 Message-ID: <003a01bf9065$eff87f40$dfa593cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: "Kris Kirby" , "Ben Smithurst" , References: Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:09:48 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Kris Kennaway To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Kris Kirby ; Ben Smithurst ; Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 6:42 AM Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while > On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > > Should have mentioned that I'm downloadinf with > > windows....ppp's not really up yet. > > As much as I hate to tell you about tools which will make your "windows > experience" more enjoyable and perhaps delay your total migration to > FreeBSD: gozilla. > > Kris > > ---- > In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. > -- Charles Forsythe > I prefer bulletproof ftp...it's a bit more no-nonsense that gozilla. I tried gozilla a while back and didn't find it too stable. Ido like the alternate downlowd site feature 'tho. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 15:16:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68AE737B7D1 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10188; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:16:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317161422.040fa900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:15:49 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: This is stupid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000317123145.00b601f0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <38D1F624.2C97055A@verinet.com> <4.2.2.20000317092004.040fc560@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317103557.00b32ef0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317123145.00b601f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:02 PM 3/17/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > You haven't been listening, have you? Perhaps some businesses don't implement them correctly, but plenty do. It all depends on the company, the nature of the contracts that are signed requiring the Chinese walls, etc.... I've never seen one that really worked to prevent conflicts of interest. Besides, a "Chinese wall" implies that there are different people on each side of the wall. In this case, board members of the FreeBSD Foundation would be the SAME PEOPLE who made important strategic decisions for direct competitors of the companies involved. No go. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 16:30:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cliff.i-plus.net (cliff.i-plus.net [209.100.20.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DDF37B91B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss (dhcp-05.dashit.net [209.100.22.254]) by cliff.i-plus.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21950 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:30:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: Why not gzip iso images? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:25:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I seem to have missed the beginning of this thread, but do have a comment on it. Someone indicated that downloading an ISO image was the best solution for installing FreeBSD on a box that had poor internet connectivity. You disagree with this? For home, if I was still limited to a dialup connection, you could bet your ass that I'd download an ISO for installing FreeBSD. Burn the sucker at work (or school, library, friend's house, etc..), then haul that precious CD home, and have my installation done before dinner. I couldn't think of an easier or faster way of getting FreeBSD installed. Much easier and more straight forward than doing an FTP installation over a dialup (been there, done that @ 14.4k). -Troy ** -----Original Message----- ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Kris Kennaway ** Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:41 PM ** To: Bill Fumerola ** Cc: Will Andrews; Kelly Yancey; Jeffrey J. Mountin; chat@freebsd.org ** Subject: Re: Why not gzip iso images? ** ** ** On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: ** ** > If our intent was to make installation a living hell, then yes this an ** > excellent idea. An ISO is a single file to download / burn and is the ** > most straightforward way of making your installation media. ** > ** > Everyone from the guru to the warez monkey understands burning an ISO. ** ** This is a stupid thread :) ** ** I was replying to someone who claimed (something like) that being able to ** download an ISO was the best solution for a box which doesn't have direct ** net access (or somehting like that, don't flame me if I got it wrong). ** Nobody is advocating removing either the ISO or the binary install ** path..I've just been trying to point out that you don't always have to ** download the ISO and in fact it's probably a waste to do so unless you ** have good connectivity. ** ** I wonder if there are some people who have been talking about ISO images ** on the lists lately who don't realise you can install FreeBSD with much ** reduced download requirements. ** ** Can we move this thread to -chat where it belongs? ** ** Kris ** ** ---- ** In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. ** -- Charles Forsythe ** ** ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 16:41:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71DA137B836 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11264; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:41:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:41:01 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003172158.OAA22020@usr02.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:58 PM 3/17/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >The people who say "Don't use Linux because it is GPL'ed" are >idiots. This is the only point in your message with which I disagree. If, as you've stated, the GPL is the instrument of an agenda which is malicious, in what way is it idiotic to avoid perpetuating or spreading the "virus?" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 16:55:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 964C337B800; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942012E814A; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Taylor Cc: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Brett Taylor wrote: > I'll stick w/ mass - at least I'll buy the same amount on each planet or > in an accelerating frame. :-) I think you meant 'inertial frame'. In an accelerating frame your inertial mass (and gravitational mass, by the equivalence principle) will be different. The moral of the story: buy your sugar in a freely-falling elevator car. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 20:51:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1027237B56E for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r6.bfm.org [216.127.220.102]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:51:34 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317224434.00a3c160@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:44:34 -0600 To: From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <000901bf9059$0efb42e0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> References: <38D29DF0.353E@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:37 17-03-2000 -0800, John Purser wrote: >Tim, > >I think your prejudice is coloring your perception. I've got two >grandmothers in nursing homes who require that someone care for them just as >Adam provides care for his patients. When I read Brett saying Adam was a >saint I heard no sarcasm at all. For what it's worth, I did not read any sarcasm in it either. While I am hardly a saint, I can tell that work in nursing homes is definitely not for everyone! Especially when working with Alzheimer's victims and the developmentally disabled. We take a lot of abuse from the people we care for. That said, I am sure Tim, as a psychiatric nurse, gets his share of abuse too. Back in my home country I was a clinical psychologist, so I can relate to Tim's work quite well. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 22:17:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3583E37B789 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 80168 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2000 05:16:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Mar 2000 05:16:47 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:46:49 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Brett Taylor , Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'll stick w/ mass - at least I'll buy the same amount on each planet or > > in an accelerating frame. :-) > > I think you meant 'inertial frame'. In an accelerating frame your inertial > mass (and gravitational mass, by the equivalence principle) will be > different. No, your mass is the same, your weight changes. You are weightless in a freely falling elevator, but certainly not massless. The definition of "inertial frame" or "accelerated frame" varies: traditionally, earth's surface is (nearly) an inertial frame with an external force (Earth's gravity) and the freely falling elevator would be an accelerated frame and the acceleration would give rise to a pseudoforce which cancels your weight due to Earth's gravity; but in general relativity the elevator is an inertial frame, not earth's surface, and your weight on earth's surface (which you attribute to "gravity") is really a pseudoforce arising from your being in an accelerated frame. > The moral of the story: buy your sugar in a freely-falling elevator car. If you only want to lose weight, of course, the freely falling elevator (or an orbiting satellite, etc) is the place to be. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 22:28:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4842037B8DE for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-22.ocis.net [209.52.173.54]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09391; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:28:26 -0800 Message-Id: <200003180628.WAA09391@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: "Haikal Saadh" , "Kris Kirby" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:27:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Wow, it has been a while Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: "Ben Smithurst" , In-reply-to: <003a01bf9065$eff87f40$dfa593cb@timberwolf> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you don't like GoZilla (I never did), you might want to check out GetRight 3.x (3.33 being the most stable for me). It doesn't have the nag ads and whatnot (like 4.x), and is much smaller than GoZilla. Works a lot quicker and easier too, IMO. Freddie {Okay, I'm still a Windows weenie, just waiting on WinModem support or cash for a PC-Card modem to switch.} Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 22:34: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE8C37BABF for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:33:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA16935; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:33:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwpaqcH; Fri Mar 17 23:32:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA05681; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:33:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003180633.XAA05681@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:33:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 17, 2000 05:41:01 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >The people who say "Don't use Linux because it is GPL'ed" are > >idiots. > > This is the only point in your message with which I disagree. > If, as you've stated, the GPL is the instrument of an agenda which > is malicious, in what way is it idiotic to avoid perpetuating > or spreading the "virus?" "Use" vs. "utilize". If all I do is utilize SAMBA, that is, I have it installed and running, and I don't invest any of my intellectual property in it, then I really don't care if it is GPL or whatever, because it's exempted by the "mere agregation" clause of the (L)GPL, and it can't "infect" my code, so why should I bother with the effort of replacing it with a "clean" version that does the same thing? I end up spending money to no effect, just so I can be a puritan about license, which makes no sense. You have to decide what's strategic and what's tactical, and be willing to ignore the heritage of the tactical. Anything else is a bad business decision, and costs me money. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 22:40: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951C737B840; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA50499; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:40:07 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kris Kennaway , Brett Taylor , Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I think you meant 'inertial frame'. In an accelerating frame your inertial > > mass (and gravitational mass, by the equivalence principle) will be > > different. > > No, your mass is the same, your weight changes. You are Oops, you're right of course (dammit, I made (almost) the same mistake I get angry at my lab students for doing!). Sometimes it's easier to calculate with these things than to interpret them ;-) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 22:44:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0EED37B9A3 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:44:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 48663 invoked by uid 211); 18 Mar 2000 04:43:43 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 18 Mar 2000 04:43:43 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:13:42 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: J McKitrick , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003172130.OAA21283@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How does he suggest that people who love programming make a living? > > Waiting tables on the weekends? :( > > There are two possibilities: > > 1) You are not a professional programmer, but a hobbiest, > and you write code because you enjoy doing it. You > don't get paid for it, the same as a painter should > not be paid for his art, because a dilletante should > have to do honest work for their money. > > 2) You work in a job-shop, where groups of companies band > together to pay code-whores to make changes to exisiting > programs, and, very rarely, to get them to write new > code, but all this code is released into the public > domain (patent and copyright law having been abolished, > and shipping binaries without source having been made a > capitol offense). > > 3) You are Richard Stallman or some other ivory tower type > who is paid to do Real Computer Science Research(tm) > for the sake of the research itself; a member of a tiny > cadre of Professor Emerti, gradual students, and plain > old students with too much time on their hands because > they are taking fewer credit hours than they should be > taking to make effective use of the money Society owns > and is investing in them for the benefit of the future > of Society. Those are 3 possibilities. However, I think you left out something else (I'm not being categorical on this, since I'm not in the computer business): as I understand it, the great majority of software engineers (I once heard a figure of 90%, at least in India) are into custom-written software, not packaged stuff like Oracle. The software firms are contracted by companies to write this, and it is not distributed but used only under the company's own roof for its own purposes. In that case the licence is really irrelevant; the GPL doesn't force anyone to redistribute the code. Another money-making scheme, directly off the GPL, is what Peter Deutsch did for Ghostscript (though this is not something Stallman approved of): he has three licensing schemes, the GPL for year-old software, a very restrictive "free licence" for the latest version, and a commercial licence. Some recent startups (eg ReiserFS) seem to be eliminating one of these steps, just having the GPL or a commercial licence depending on the customer's choice. I think this should work if you own the copyright to all your code and are careful about what changes are made under your source tree: others can fork it but then they can't distribute under a licence other than GPL. On the other hand, in the event of such a fork you may cease to receive patches, and lose out on the benefits of open source. It's too early to say how such schemes will work out. The Deutsch interview is worth reading, by the way: http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/1998-10/interview.html Stig: The GPL doesn't address the issue of making money for people who create and maintain GPLed works. It's just that, de facto, if you hold the copyright, then you don't have to use the GPL, and that's what you've done with Ghostscript. Peter: That's correct. And as far as I know, I am the first person, and so far perhaps the only substantial person, who has taken advantage of that.... The interview says that he made enough money to retire on. But I'm not very clear what advantage Deutsch would have gained if he had chosen the BSD licence for Ghostscript. My intent is not to start a GPL/BSD flamewar. I'm only saying the GPL thing is not as black as it is painted out to be. Also, it's not only software, but in the age of quick and easy digital copying, the whole copyright scheme has to be rethought. The current situation, of further and stricter controls on digital copying being introduced every year, will work only in a police state. Stallman's ideas are one possible answer for software, which few people will accept, but his vocalness means people at least start thinking about the issue instead of pretending it doesn't exist. For music/creative writing/etc, Stallman himself agrees that a GPL-style copyleft would not be a good idea. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 23: 0:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E865337B9A3 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14508; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:58:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:58:10 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003180633.XAA05681@usr02.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:33 PM 3/17/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >If all I do is utilize SAMBA, that is, I have it installed and >running, and I don't invest any of my intellectual property in >it, then I really don't care if it is GPL or whatever, because >it's exempted by the "mere agregation" clause of the (L)GPL, and >it can't "infect" my code, so why should I bother with the effort >of replacing it with a "clean" version that does the same thing? To avoid the collateral damage done by the GPL, and to prevent it from eliminating all other alternatives. Also, if there is a non-GPLed equivalent, you are likely to contribute to it, report bugs so that it is made better, etc. All of this palliates the most serious effect of the GPL: that it destroys other options and leaves you locked in, with no choice. >I end up spending money to no effect, just so I can be a puritan >about license, which makes no sense. Again, there are very practical reasons for wanting a BSD-licensed version to exist. The BSD-licensed version will give you an alternative, and will encourage vendors to produce commercial products with that functionality too. This is a good business decision. The fact that GCC does not have BSD-licensed competition is one of the main reasons that there are few decent alternatives left for non-Microsoft platforms. Borland seemed like a hopeful possibility, but now they are GIVING THEIR COMPILER AWAY under pressure from GCC users who claim that they'll scorn it otherwise. I fail to see how they can make any money from it. And that will mean insufficient money spent on development, support, and promotion. In short, "Kylix" may well be stillborn -- long before it might have gotten to the FreeBSD platform. Thanks to GCC. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 23: 5: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8373837B522 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:05:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14558; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:03:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000317235837.03e7ac10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:03:51 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: J McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003172130.OAA21283@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:43 PM 3/17/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Those are 3 possibilities. > >However, I think you left out something else (I'm not being >categorical on this, since I'm not in the computer business): as >I understand it, the great majority of software engineers (I once >heard a figure of 90%, at least in India) are into custom-written >software, not packaged stuff like Oracle. The software firms are >contracted by companies to write this, and it is not distributed >but used only under the company's own roof for its own purposes. >In that case the licence is really irrelevant; the GPL doesn't >force anyone to redistribute the code. According to Bruce Perens, Version 3 of the GPL will. Bait and switch. >Another money-making scheme, directly off the GPL, is what Peter >Deutsch did for Ghostscript (though this is not something >Stallman approved of): he has three licensing schemes, the GPL >for year-old software, a very restrictive "free licence" for the >latest version, and a commercial licence. Deutch is still bitter about the fact that the GPL didn't keep commercial entities from using his code, as Stallman claimed. He was deceived into putting the GPL on his product, and has paid for that ever since. (He was able to make a fair amount of money from custom programming -- some of which included adapting GhostScript for embedded systems. But he didn't profit from the code itself, because anyone who really wanted to could use it for free.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 17 23:45:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (bitmcnit.bryansk.ru [195.239.213.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F2C37B58E for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by server.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id KAA28973 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:38:22 +0300 Received: (from alex@localhost) by kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01982 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:13:13 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:13:13 +0300 From: Alex Kapranoff To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000318101313.B1043@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000317141314.00a36630@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317141314.00a36630@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 02:13:14PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 02:13:14PM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >writings and speeches. He favors the destruction of commercial > >software developers, the reduction of programmers' compensation, > >and the abolition of artists' and authors rights. > > Very sad, and very true. The strangest thing about Stalin (Stallman > literally translated into Russian) is that he insists that programmers will Who said you that? "stall" has nothing to do with "steel". And the Russian for "steel" actually formed "Stalin". Some interesting and not pleasant meanings for "stall" do really exist in my English dictionary, though :) -- Alex Kapranoff, 2:50/383.20@fidonet, Voice: +7(0832)791845. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 1:12: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AA237B58F for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 01:11:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA07875; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:09:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:09:23 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: [snip] > > The fact that GCC does not have BSD-licensed competition is one > of the main reasons that there are few decent alternatives left > for non-Microsoft platforms. Borland seemed like a hopeful > possibility, but now they are GIVING THEIR COMPILER AWAY under > pressure from GCC users who claim that they'll scorn it > otherwise. > This is incorrect. It does have such competition. Just scarely nobody bothers to actually develop it... [snip] > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 7:26: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFD2F37B83E for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38D39FC3-4454, Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:24:51 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:24:51 +0000 Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <38D39FC3.4454@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:24:51 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This topic (nursing) is a bit far from most that I've seen on the chat list, but hey, what the hell! Adam wrote (following up my somewhat ill-conceived knee-jerk to Brett's compliment): > For what it's worth, I did not read any sarcasm in it either. > [...] > That said, I am sure Tim, as a psychiatric nurse, gets his share of > abuse too. Back in my home country I was a clinical psychologist, so > I can relate to Tim's work quite well. Thanks, Adam. From where I stand (and especially from my previous position of 'medical/surgical' nursing), it seems to me that people who do not work in hospitals often have a view of nurses that is quite different to the way that we see ourselves. The perception of nurses by non-hospital workers is coloured in some *very* complex ways, especially as nurses often carry out tasks that in some societies are seen as "traditionally" female/mothering. There are some complicated psychological processes going on here! There again, while I was never called a saint in my previous job, now that I work in mental health the most common reaction is a blank "I don't know how you can do that job." Many people can relate to what I referred to as shit-shovelling; fewer can relate to interacting with someone who is psychotic. Let me close with a public apology to Brett: my response was ill- -considered, and I'm sorry for that, Brett. I should have known better, and I apologise for any offense that I may have caused. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 8:13:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C2437B7AC for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r19.bfm.org [216.127.220.115]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:14:13 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318100707.00a35630@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:07:07 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000318101313.B1043@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> References: <3.0.6.32.20000317141314.00a36630@mail85.pair.com> <4.2.2.20000317124248.00b5bc10@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000317141314.00a36630@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:13 18-03-2000 +0300, Alex Kapranoff wrote: > Who said you that? "stall" has nothing to do with "steel". And the >Russian for "steel" actually formed "Stalin". No need to dwell on spelling. In English, Stallman is pronounced the same as Stahlmann, which is German for Stalin. Those are the subtleties of the English tongue. In cheek. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 9:55:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C13537B8BC for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:55:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA18402; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:55:49 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:55:49 -0800 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200003181755.JAA18402@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > However, I think you left out something else (I'm not being > categorical on this, since I'm not in the computer business): as > I understand it, the great majority of software engineers (I once > heard a figure of 90%, at least in India) are into custom-written > software, not packaged stuff like Oracle. The software firms are > contracted by companies to write this, and it is not distributed > but used only under the company's own roof for its own purposes. > In that case the licence is really irrelevant; the GPL doesn't > force anyone to redistribute the code. I have been in this situation before with one of my previous employers. When the Indian software firm A modifies GPL'ed code and ships it off to company B, GPL triggers. You can have private modifications to GPL, only if the code remains within a legal entity. You can certainly play legal games to work around it, but that's not pretty. > Another money-making scheme, directly off the GPL, is what Peter > Deutsch did for Ghostscript (though this is not something > Stallman approved of): he has three licensing schemes, the GPL > for year-old software, a very restrictive "free licence" for the > latest version, and a commercial licence. This just conforms to the letter of GPL, but not the spirit of GPL. > The interview says that he made enough money to retire on. But > I'm not very clear what advantage Deutsch would have gained if he > had chosen the BSD licence for Ghostscript. He would have been able to make money by selling add-ons to ghostscript. Because he licensed it under GPL, he could only sell mods to his code. Had he licensed it under BSD, he'd be able to sell mods to an enhanced version of ghostscript. > My intent is not to start a GPL/BSD flamewar. I'm only saying the > GPL thing is not as black as it is painted out to be. Actually, I find that the popular press (Slashdot and other Linux mags) paint GPL whiter than it actually is. Free software related items on Slashdot for example, feature a GNU icon. I'm not saying that Slashdot is representative, but for the uninitiated, the nicer side of GPL is more visible than the problematic side. > Also, it's not only software, but in the age of quick and easy digital > copying, the whole copyright scheme has to be rethought. What's your proposal ? I don't think anyone can pass a law asking people to make all software free for public good. Only commercial enforcement of copyright laws becoming unviable, can change the status quo. But if there is enough money at stake, people will find ways of "digitally" enforcing copyright. > The current situation, of further and stricter controls on digital > copying being introduced every year, will work only in a police > state. Stallman's ideas are one possible answer for software, which > few people will accept, but his vocalness means people at least start > thinking about the issue instead of pretending it doesn't exist. For > music/creative writing/etc, Stallman himself agrees that a GPL-style > copyleft would not be a good idea. Do you have a reference to Stallman's statement on music etc ? Given the current controversy surrounding DVDs/MP3s/Free documentation license/ Free content license etc, I find it a little bit surprising. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 10:15:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD5937B54C for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:14:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA14148; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:13:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:13:49 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Arun Sharma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003181755.JAA18402@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Arun Sharma wrote: > > Another money-making scheme, directly off the GPL, is what Peter > > Deutsch did for Ghostscript (though this is not something > > Stallman approved of): he has three licensing schemes, the GPL > > for year-old software, a very restrictive "free licence" for the > > latest version, and a commercial licence. > > This just conforms to the letter of GPL, but not the spirit of GPL. Errr... First - who cares about teh spirit? It was mutilated to death many years ago. Besides, it confirms even to the spirit pretty well. Nobody is stopping you from taking teh GPL version and independently developing the features that are in the newest version, releasing those and from then on staying on teh top. The cost is just too high. > > My intent is not to start a GPL/BSD flamewar. I'm only saying the > > GPL thing is not as black as it is painted out to be. > > Actually, I find that the popular press (Slashdot and other Linux mags) > paint GPL whiter than it actually is. Free software related items on > Slashdot for example, feature a GNU icon. I'm not saying that Slashdot > is representative, but for the uninitiated, the nicer side of GPL is > more visible than the problematic side. Slashdot isn't exactly an unbiased medium... > > > Also, it's not only software, but in the age of quick and easy digital > > copying, the whole copyright scheme has to be rethought. > > What's your proposal ? I don't think anyone can pass a law asking > people to make all software free for public good. Only commercial > enforcement of copyright laws becoming unviable, can change the > status quo. But if there is enough money at stake, people will find > ways of "digitally" enforcing copyright. > You mean the likes of UITA(sp?)? > > The current situation, of further and stricter controls on digital > > copying being introduced every year, will work only in a police > > state. Stallman's ideas are one possible answer for software, which > > few people will accept, but his vocalness means people at least start > > thinking about the issue instead of pretending it doesn't exist. For > > music/creative writing/etc, Stallman himself agrees that a GPL-style > > copyleft would not be a good idea. > > Do you have a reference to Stallman's statement on music etc ? Given > the current controversy surrounding DVDs/MP3s/Free documentation license/ > Free content license etc, I find it a little bit surprising. > > -Arun > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 12:47: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7DED37BAD2 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 9141 invoked by uid 211); 18 Mar 2000 20:46:53 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 18 Mar 2000 20:46:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:16:52 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003181755.JAA18402@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have been in this situation before with one of my previous > employers. When the Indian software firm A modifies GPL'ed code > and ships it off to company B, GPL triggers. You can have private > modifications to GPL, only if the code remains within a legal entity. It would trigger only if company B plans to redistribute. That is, Company A must give it to Company B under the GPL; but if it is for company B's private use, why would company B care about the restrictions on distributing? I've heard that Cygnus does exactly this with its custom modifications of gcc, though the generally useful bits are eventually released to the public too. > He would have been able to make money by selling add-ons to ghostscript. > Because he licensed it under GPL, he could only sell mods to his code. > Had he licensed it under BSD, he'd be able to sell mods to an enhanced > version of ghostscript. He has the copyright, and can sell ghostscript under a different license (with add-ons and all) anyway. But only he, the copyright holder, could do that. (Though actually I think he didn't insist on retaining all copyrights for modifications, but trusted to the goodwill of the community.) On the other hand, with the BSD license, anyone else could have made money selling addons: having written the code, he had no competitive advantage except familiarity with his code. With the GPL, only he has that advantage. It is clear that he didn't like the idea of others making money from his code, which is why > > music/creative writing/etc, Stallman himself agrees that a GPL-style > > copyleft would not be a good idea. > > Do you have a reference to Stallman's statement on music etc ? Given > the current controversy surrounding DVDs/MP3s/Free documentation license/ > Free content license etc, I find it a little bit surprising. About the free doc licence, it contains some stuff about "invariant sections" which cannot be modified; the GPL contains no such provision. RMS says in his article on free documentation (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-doc.html) As a general rule, I don't believe that it is essential for people to have permission to modify all sorts of articles and books. The issues for writings are not necessarily the same as those for software. For example, I don't think you or I are obliged to give permission to modify articles like this one, which describe our actions and our views.... In other articles he gives several suggestions on how to compensate artists, which may not be very realistic. But he does make the important point that people don't copy unless they have an incentive, in that it's Today copyrights are controlled by big business. (Look at the Disney company, for example, lobbying to extend the copyright on Mickey Mouse almost indefinitely.) Copyrights are meant to encourage creativity by supporting the creative artists, and it's hard to see how a long dead Walt Disney's creativity is going to improve by this. As for music, CDs retail for $10-$20, though the production cost is less than $1; of the rest, barely a few percent goes to the artist. The rest goes to the big corporations and retailers. Who benefits from such policies? Not the consumers, and to a large extent not the "creative artists" either. Something has to change. Stallman may not have the answers, but at least it's nice to have someone remind us of the questions. Also check out http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html -- one of the most alarming stories I've read, but I've realised its significance only recently with abominations like country-coded DVD's and the DMCA gaining wide acceptance. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 12:52:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A19C37B607 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 9155 invoked by uid 211); 18 Mar 2000 20:52:24 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 18 Mar 2000 20:52:24 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:22:24 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for typo: I wrote > familiarity with his code. With the GPL, only he has that > advantage. It is clear that he didn't like the idea of others > making money from his code, which is why which should have continued, which is why he [Deutsch] moved from the GPL to the more restrictive Aladdin licence, rather than a less restrictive licence like the BSD licence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 13:31:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971F237B7D6 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA18606; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:31:03 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:31:03 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000318133103.A18560@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <200003181755.JAA18402@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Rahul Siddharthan on Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:16:52AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 02:16:52AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I have been in this situation before with one of my previous > > employers. When the Indian software firm A modifies GPL'ed code > > and ships it off to company B, GPL triggers. You can have private > > modifications to GPL, only if the code remains within a legal entity. > > It would trigger only if company B plans to redistribute. That > is, Company A must give it to Company B under the GPL; but if it > is for company B's private use, why would company B care about > the restrictions on distributing? The transfer of code from Company A to Company B is considered redistribution. Otherwise, one can defeat GPL by having agreements with Companies B1, B2, B3 etc, selling code for private use only. Thus when Company A transfers code to company B, it is required to give it to anyone who asks for it. That's the interpretation I heard from the lawyers. > > He would have been able to make money by selling add-ons to ghostscript. > > Because he licensed it under GPL, he could only sell mods to his code. > > Had he licensed it under BSD, he'd be able to sell mods to an enhanced > > version of ghostscript. > > He has the copyright, and can sell ghostscript under a different > license (with add-ons and all) anyway. But only he, the copyright > holder, could do that. (Though actually I think he didn't insist > on retaining all copyrights for modifications, but trusted to the > goodwill of the community.) I'm not sure that Linus Torvalds can change his mind now and release a version of Mobile Linux using a commercial license. He does not own the copyrights to everything - just to his code. My understanding of GPL is that Peter could not have sold a version of ghostscript containing a GPL'ed add-on without the permission of the author. This is why SCSL is not so well received in the open source circles - because it allows the copyright holder - Sun, to have special privileges. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 14:59:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 201A037B6F3 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 365 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2000 22:59:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (rsidd@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Mar 2000 22:59:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 04:29:39 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000318133103.A18560@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I have been in this situation before with one of my previous > > > employers. When the Indian software firm A modifies GPL'ed code > > > and ships it off to company B, GPL triggers. You can have private > > > modifications to GPL, only if the code remains within a legal entity. > > > > It would trigger only if company B plans to redistribute. That > > is, Company A must give it to Company B under the GPL; but if it > > is for company B's private use, why would company B care about > > the restrictions on distributing? > > The transfer of code from Company A to Company B is considered redistribution. > Otherwise, one can defeat GPL by having agreements with Companies B1, B2, > B3 etc, selling code for private use only. Thus when Company A transfers > code to company B, it is required to give it to anyone who asks for it. > That's the interpretation I heard from the lawyers. Dunno about lawyers but the GPL nowhere insists that you must redistribute -- only that if you do so, it must be under the GPL. Company A has to give it to Company B under the GPL, yes. That means Company B can redistribute under the GPL if they choose to. They may choose not to. Meanwhile, no third party can demand the code from Company A. Company B can demand the source code if they received only the binaries, but that's about the extent of what they can demand; having received the stuff, B must handle it under the GPL, and A is no longer in the picture. If the code is of some general interest, what can certainly happen is that Company B redistributes it further (or even puts it up on their ftp site): there's no way A can stop that. That's why RMS's distinction between "free speech" and "free beer" is something of a red herring: any GPL program which is useful to more than a few people is likely to end up on some ftp site (free beer). But neither A nor B nor anyone else is required to give it to anyone who asks, and I suspect a lot of the GPL-hatred in the BSD world is based on exactly this sort of misunderstanding. > I'm not sure that Linus Torvalds can change his mind now and release > a version of Mobile Linux using a commercial license. He does not own the > copyrights to everything - just to his code. > > My understanding of GPL is that Peter could not have sold a version of > ghostscript containing a GPL'ed add-on without the permission of the > author. This is why SCSL is not so well received in the open source > circles - because it allows the copyright holder - Sun, to have > special privileges. You're quite right -- Torvalds can't do that (and probably wouldn't try). As for ghostscript, I'm not sure right now whether the Aladdin licence existed from the beginning or the first version of Ghostscript was GPL'd: but definitely in recent years Deutsch has been developing ghostscript (with user contributions) under terms somewhat more restrictive than the GPL, and releasing old versions periodically under the GPL. I don't know who has the copyrights for the user contributions, though. More recently, Hans Reiser makes it clear that he plans to dual-license ReiserFS in some way, GPL for linux and commercial licence for commercial vendors who may be interested, I think he too plans to control the copyrights to all contributions in some way. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 16: 2:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B47AE37B638 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:02:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23417 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2000 00:02:08 -0000 Received: from du154.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.154) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 Mar 2000 00:02:08 -0000 Message-ID: <38D418CF.B12A75DE@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:01:19 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > The fact that GCC does not have BSD-licensed competition is one > of the main reasons that there are few decent alternatives left > for non-Microsoft platforms. Borland seemed like a hopeful > possibility, but now they are GIVING THEIR COMPILER AWAY under > pressure from GCC users who claim that they'll scorn it > otherwise. > How would the existence of a second free C compiler make it easier for Borland to sell their compiler? And anyway, Borland has a history of opening up (giving away) "obsolete" products (in the Windows world, command line tools are for all practical purposes obsolete). There is, for instance, a port of TurboVision in the ports collection. I suspect that the reason there is no free alternative to GCC is that a C++ compiler is so hard to write that license considerations are not enough to motivate anyone to undertake the task. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 16:43:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE8037B506; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:43:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA71521; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:43:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:43:05 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mark Ovens , Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Useful Metric Conversions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Kris, On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Oops, you're right of course (dammit, I made (almost) the same mistake > I get angry at my lab students for doing!). Sometimes it's easier to > calculate with these things than to interpret them ;-) Hehe - I was going to pull out my stick and beat you soundly about the head and shoulders, but I see you caught your mistake. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 17: 8:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D309337B600 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22786; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:07:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000318180428.03e80530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:07:51 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Arun Sharma From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000318133103.A18560@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:59 PM 3/18/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >More recently, Hans Reiser makes it clear that he plans to >dual-license ReiserFS in some way, GPL for linux and commercial >licence for commercial vendors who may be interested, I think he >too plans to control the copyrights to all contributions in some >way. Dual licensing doesn't work. Reiser will be caught in the same trap as Deutsch. Here's why. First, only a very un-savvy businessman would license code for money when there's a GPLed version available. This is true for two reasons. First, the existence of the GPLed version effectively reduces the market value of its functionality to zero; anyone can get that functionality for free! Thus, if one pays money to license GPLed code, one is paying for something which has no market value to end users. This puts the commercial developer "in the hole" from the start. Second, the GPL provides for a few "loopholes" which allow the author's potential licensees to use the code without licensing it. (For example, some vendors of print drivers for UNIX invoke GNU Ghostscript but then post-process the output through their own software after that. They don't change GhostScript itself.) So, in many cases, they have no need to license the GPLed code, and the author loses. So, if he ever wants to make money by licensing the code, he should not try to do dual licensing. It WILL fail. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 17: 8:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAFD37BB82 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:08:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22783; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:07:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000318180238.03f9fe20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:04:00 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Arun Sharma From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003181755.JAA18402@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:46 PM 3/18/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Also check out >http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html >-- one of the most alarming stories I've read, It's not alarmING, it's alarmIST. And it presents the GPL as the "solution" (not surprisingly), even though as a solution the GPL is worse than the original problem. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 17:13: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAAC37B541 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:12:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22856; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:12:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000318180821.03e7d550@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:10:25 -0700 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <38D418CF.B12A75DE@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:01 PM 3/18/2000 , Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >How would the existence of a second free C compiler make it easier for >Borland to sell their compiler? The existence of a BSD-licensed compiler would allow companies to add value without starting from scratch. >And anyway, Borland has a history of >opening up (giving away) "obsolete" products (in the Windows world, >command line tools are for all practical purposes obsolete). There is, >for instance, a port of TurboVision in the ports collection. Their C compiler isn't obsolete. >I suspect that the reason there is no free alternative to GCC is that >a C++ compiler is so hard to write that license considerations are not >enough to motivate anyone to undertake the task. I think it's because people don't yet recognize the harm caused by having a GPLed product dominate a product category. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 17:16:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF58C37B67B for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17299; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:57:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00459; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:16:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:16:31 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000318180428.03e80530@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Dual licensing doesn't work. Reiser will be caught in the same > trap as Deutsch. I'm really not trying to start a flame-war, but do you have a URL on this one? I'd be interested to know the particulars of the deal. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 19:18:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 618C837B57E for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:18:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19883 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2000 03:19:03 -0000 Received: from du132.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.132) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 Mar 2000 03:19:03 -0000 Message-ID: <38D446F5.AB12B522@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:18:13 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000318180821.03e7d550@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:01 PM 3/18/2000 , Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >How would the existence of a second free C compiler make it easier for > >Borland to sell their compiler? > > The existence of a BSD-licensed compiler would allow companies to > add value without starting from scratch. Which companies? Borland doesn't have to start from scratch. Nor do Unix vendors that already have their own compilers. And what value could be added? Either the compiler meets the standard or it doesn't. Adding "features" to the language would just break portability. If you wanted to improve the interals of the compiler, you'd probably be better off writing your own anyway. On the other hand, an IDE, where value can be added, can be written to work with any compiler, so a company would not need their own. > >And anyway, Borland has a history of > >opening up (giving away) "obsolete" products (in the Windows world, > >command line tools are for all practical purposes obsolete). There is, > >for instance, a port of TurboVision in the ports collection. > > Their C compiler isn't obsolete. Not the compiler per se, but a command-line compiler without an IDE. Borland still sells C++Builder, and have just released a new version. I doubt they could sell the compiler without the IDE these days. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 19:58:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D58937B5F9 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:58:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 856 invoked by uid 211); 19 Mar 2000 03:58:45 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 19 Mar 2000 03:58:45 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:28:45 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kirby Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Dual licensing doesn't work. Reiser will be caught in the same > > trap as Deutsch. > > I'm really not trying to start a flame-war, but do you have a URL on this > one? I'd be interested to know the particulars of the deal. http://devlinux.com/projects/reiserfs/13_1.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 18 20:54:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE83037B68D for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24238; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:54:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000318214408.03ef4f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:54:01 -0700 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38D446A5.D18F22A@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000318180821.03e7d550@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:16 PM 3/18/2000 , Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > The existence of a BSD-licensed compiler would allow companies to > > add value without starting from scratch. > >Which companies? Borland doesn't have to start from scratch. Nor do Unix vendors >that already have their own compilers. True. But they still can't derive from header files or the OS source. And they can't track the free compiler by looking at what's been added; they must reimplement each new feature on their own. This is redundant and wasteful. >And what value could be added? Either the compiler meets the standard or it >doesn't. I'm talking about adding value to the BSD-licensed code -- for example, by adding optimization or speeding up compilation. >Adding "features" to the language would just break portability. To the language -- yes. To the toolchain -- no. > > Their C compiler isn't obsolete. > >Not the compiler per se, but a command-line compiler without an IDE. That's not obsolete either. Many people ALWAYS WILL prefer to use make and the editor of their choice. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message