From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 7:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2CB37B576 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 07:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13LnvU-000FcW-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:30:48 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA06632 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:30:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:30:47 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000807153046.A6595@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This might be a REALLY stupid question, but here goes.... In movies with hi-tech or research premises, we often see sophisticated computer programs running on state of the art terminals. Now, obviously, many times these are simply made-up special effects. But, are there any REAL programs out there that inspired them? For example, GUI-based real-time 3D molecule displays, frequency analyzers, real-time systems displays (like for satellites) or are all of these simply works of fiction? If they *do* exist, do they run on proprietary OS's? Unix? SGI workstations? jm -- ------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 7:40:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne004m.webcentral.com.au (bne004m.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E00137B649 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 07:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 15241 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2000 14:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (203.147.161.29) by bne004m.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 7 Aug 2000 14:40:37 -0000 Message-ID: <005601c0007d$f6a9a980$0101a8c0@mshome.net> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "j mckitrick" , References: <20000807153046.A6595@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 00:43:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don't know about molecule displays, but daemonnews had an article about xdm that involves spiffy login screens quite a while back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "j mckitrick" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:30 AM Subject: computer systems in movies > > This might be a REALLY stupid question, but here goes.... > > In movies with hi-tech or research premises, we often see > sophisticated computer programs running on state of the art terminals. Now, > obviously, many times these are simply made-up special effects. But, are > there any REAL programs out there that inspired them? For example, > GUI-based real-time 3D molecule displays, frequency analyzers, real-time > systems displays (like for satellites) or are all of these simply works of > fiction? If they *do* exist, do they run on proprietary OS's? Unix? SGI > workstations? > > jm > -- > ------------------------------------------- > Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org > ------------------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 11:14:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE38037B658 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22428; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:10:31 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000807111031.A12922@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <20000807153046.A6595@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <20000807153046.A6595@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 03:30:47PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 03:30:47PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > This might be a REALLY stupid question, but here goes.... > > In movies with hi-tech or research premises, we often see > sophisticated computer programs running on state of the art terminals. Now, > obviously, many times these are simply made-up special effects. But, are > there any REAL programs out there that inspired them? For example, > GUI-based real-time 3D molecule displays, frequency analyzers, real-time > systems displays (like for satellites) or are all of these simply works of > fiction? If they *do* exist, do they run on proprietary OS's? Unix? SGI > workstations? Some of this stuff exists, but most if it's a complete fiction and totally useless (i.e. the "UNIX" system in Jurssic Park). I read an interview that talked a little about making these displays a few weeks ago it's at: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/vanling/vanlinginterview.html -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 12:52:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C4637BBF9 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA75176; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:52:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:52:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: dan@langille.org Subject: Re: make world takes 7 days In-Reply-To: <200008031214.OAA81266@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Oliver Fromme wrote: >In list.freebsd-chat Dan Langille wrote: > > 486DX at 1193182 Hz with 12288K bytes. > >What's the clock speed of the processor? Those 1193182 Hz >is the hardware timer rate, not the processor clock rate. >I don't think intel ever made 486's with 1.2 MHz. ;-) > > > [...] > > The build world started at 1100 on July 28th. > > It finished at 14:53 on August 3. > >That's probably because there's not enough RAM. With only >12 Mbyte, it has to swap quite a bit during make world. >Put a bit more RAM into it, and it will be considerably >faster. On this note, if you compile and install a slim kernel before the whole process (preferrably of the sources from the os ver installed) you can free up several precious megs of ram which might shave days off the process :-) I did a 4.1 install on a 486/66 8m the other day, and the boot kernel reported only 2000K memory free after the kernel loaded. I think it was even swapping during the install. Once the generic kernel had booted, it had 4+ megs free. After I compiled a conservative kernel with enough to run the system and have network access, there was about 6 megs free. suprisingly, removing softupdates, most networking, and maybe a few other things trimmed it down only ~250k further. If you have enough disk to build locally, you could probably trim quite a few features out of the kernel (networking, serial, parallel, etc) just for the buildworld process. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 13: 7:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E1B37BA58 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AE51C755E; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973FD1D8E; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:09:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brooks Davis Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: computer systems in movies In-Reply-To: <20000807111031.A12922@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Brooks Davis wrote: :Some of this stuff exists, but most if it's a complete fiction and :totally useless (i.e. the "UNIX" system in Jurssic Park). I read an :interview that talked a little about making these displays a few weeks :ago it's at: The system in Jurassic Park was SGI's Buttonfly interface and the videoconferencing programs you saw were also standard Irix tools. The machines primarily shown were Indys. Buttonfly was useless for real life, but it looked neat on the big screen to Joe/Jane Moviegoer. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 13:21:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (shark.IfA.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.162.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D07137B876 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yamada@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu) Received: from localhost (yamada@localhost) by shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03033; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:20:08 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from yamada@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:20:08 -1000 (HST) From: "Hubert T. Yamada" To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: computer systems in movies In-Reply-To: <20000807153046.A6595@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > In movies with hi-tech or research premises, we often see > sophisticated computer programs running on state of the art terminals. Now, > obviously, many times these are simply made-up special effects. But, are > there any REAL programs out there that inspired them? For example, > GUI-based real-time 3D molecule displays, frequency analyzers, real-time > systems displays (like for satellites) or are all of these simply works of > fiction? If they *do* exist, do they run on proprietary OS's? Unix? SGI > workstations? Speaking as someone who develops instrument control software for large telescopes, I can tell you that most of what you see movie observatories has no relationship to reality. You wouldn't believe how ugly most real observatory control systems are. Commonly, there are GUI interfaces that have a lot of buttons and text-entry fields, to control the operation of the telescope. Command-line tools are quite common. The observer generally works separately from the telescope operator, and has a real-time display of the image that he has just taken. The telescope operator normally has no knowledge of the science, and the observer has minimal knowledge of telescope operations. Generally, most of the work that is actually done at the telescope is simply examining the image, changing color-tables for the image, and examining line-cuts through an image. In order to insure that all of the necessary data is present and is of good quality. Generally people do not do any sort of data reduction while observing. It really doesn't make any sense to do so, because telescope time is very valuable, so you don't want to waste any of your telescope time doing things that can be done later. What you want to do in real-time are things that can't fixed later, such as making sure that you have the best possible focus, insuring that your image is properly centered on any optical elements (not as trivial as it sounds), insuring that your exposure time is correct, and generally insuring that you get everything that you need to reduce the data. As far as the software, most of it is custom-built, and based on freely-available software. There is much less commercial software than you might think. It generally runs on unix workstations (usually Sun or HP, though linux is becoming more popular) though there are some NT systems too. I've never seen FreeBSD running at any telescope, though I'm doing my best to change that. Hubert -- Hubert Yamada, University of Hawaii, Institute for Astronomy phone: (808)956-6648 e-mail: yamada@newton.ifa.hawaii.edu OR yamada@hawaii.edu WWW: http://ccd.ifa.hawaii.edu/~yamada/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 14:48:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E00637BC6D for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:48:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Lul0-000H8e-00; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:48:26 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA10606; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:48:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:48:26 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Hubert Yamada Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000807214856.A9892@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from yamada@IfA.Hawaii.Edu on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:26:29AM -1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:26:29AM -1000, Hubert Yamada wrote: | I think that we are talking about very custom software written for a very | small community, so the development costs on a per-unit basis is | absolutely huge. In my case, a lot of the software is one of a kind to | control one-of-a-kind hardware, so the software cost is basically the same | as my salary, so nobody wants to spend the money to make it pretty. They | just want it to work -- which is non-trivial, because the hardware often | doesn't perform the way that it is supposed to either. Well, that's too bad. Because the 'software' on Twister, Contact, The Relic, and several other recent movies looks quite cool. It even makes people think Unix might actually be friendly. :) I guess the display on 'The Net' could have been from a real Sun workstation, right? jm -- ------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly. ------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 15:33:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521EE37BCAC for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.84.147]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000807233250.RHUG3760.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:32:50 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03629; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:33:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:33:33 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: j mckitrick Cc: Hubert Yamada , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000807233333.N254@parish> References: <20000807214856.A9892@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:48:26PM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:48:26PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:26:29AM -1000, Hubert Yamada wrote: > | I think that we are talking about very custom software written for a very > | small community, so the development costs on a per-unit basis is > | absolutely huge. In my case, a lot of the software is one of a kind to > | control one-of-a-kind hardware, so the software cost is basically the same > | as my salary, so nobody wants to spend the money to make it pretty. They > | just want it to work -- which is non-trivial, because the hardware often > | doesn't perform the way that it is supposed to either. > > Well, that's too bad. Because the 'software' on Twister, Contact, The > Relic, and several other recent movies looks quite cool. It even makes > people think Unix might actually be friendly. :) > > I guess the display on 'The Net' could have been from a real Sun > workstation, right? > Don't forget BSD9.2 in Die Hard :) > jm > -- > ------------------------------------------- > Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org > If you can't learn to do something well, > learn to enjoy doing it poorly. > ------------------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 16:37:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD3737B5CB for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02947; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:37:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAACaqQf; Mon Aug 7 16:37:06 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07470; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:37:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:37:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: fjrm@yahoo.com (Francisco Reyes), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000804094036.05078a20@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Aug 04, 2000 09:43:02 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Reminds me of what Borland said when I asked if they would > port their Delphi compiler to FreeBSD. Their marketing > manager replied, "Which distribution of Linux is that?" > > Alas, Borland has been more guilty than most of jumping > on bandwagons and ignoring better opportunities. That's why > they devoted all of their resources to Windows, and nearly > lost the entire company by doing so. Heh. I remember when I found a grevious bug in their C library, worked dilligently to create a fix, and then told them I would trade the fix for a T-shirt. They didn't want to part with the T-shirt, so I didn't part with the fix; it cost me significantly more than a T-shirt worth of time to fix the frigging thing... Borland has always been a bit strange; for me to have the C library and source and wherewithal to do the fix, I had to have been using their tools a long time, been very familiar with them, paid for the highest-end version of their tools, and otherwise been a good customer of theirs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 16:41:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1977F37B74C; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:41:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13LwWb-000IZ6-00; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 00:41:41 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11542; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 00:41:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 00:41:40 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Mark Ovens Cc: Hubert Yamada , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000808004140.A11495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000807214856.A9892@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807233333.N254@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000807233333.N254@parish>; from marko@freebsd.org on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:33:33PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:33:33PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: | > I guess the display on 'The Net' could have been from a real Sun | > workstation, right? | > | | Don't forget BSD9.2 in Die Hard :) You know, I just watched that last weekend ! And my *dad* caught it before i did! I read it to myself.. it was a plain green terminal, and the BSD version was the japanese guy's name... i clearly remember that! Not a very impressive GUI. But the security was pretty good. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 16:45:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web221.mail.yahoo.com (web221.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8249C37BC70 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fjrm@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20000807234542.5439.rocketmail@web221.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.223.199.224] by web221.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:45:42 PDT Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:45:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link To: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass Cc: Francisco Reyes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Terry Lambert wrote: > They didn't want to part with the T-shirt, so I didn't > part with the fix; it cost me significantly more than a > T-shirt worth of time to fix the frigging thing... The one thing I have never understood is how can a company so poorly manage have so many good products. Also I was very surprised to read that one of the the lead architects at MS working on C# was one of the lead architects for Turbo Pascal and Delphi. I am sure MS offered real big bucks, but for Borland to not have tried to create an environment (money, stocks, whatever...) for this person to stay is sad.. Or perhaps this person just got tired of working for a bunch of looser managers/business people. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 17:19:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1711B37B880 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.83]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000808001948.PZJZ26680.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:19:48 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00429; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:19:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:19:30 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: j mckitrick Cc: Hubert Yamada , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000808011930.B288@parish> References: <20000807214856.A9892@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807233333.N254@parish> <20000808004140.A11495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000808004140.A11495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 12:41:40AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 12:41:40AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:33:33PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > | > I guess the display on 'The Net' could have been from a real Sun > | > workstation, right? > | > > | > | Don't forget BSD9.2 in Die Hard :) > > You know, I just watched that last weekend ! And my *dad* caught it before > i did! I read it to myself.. it was a plain green terminal, and the BSD > version was the japanese guy's name... Nakatomi Hmm, I wonder if we'll still remember this when FreeBSD gets to 9.2? > i clearly remember that! Not a very > impressive GUI. But the security was pretty good. :) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 20: 0: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8267237B514; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA78430; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:00:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:00:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Mark Ovens Cc: j mckitrick , Hubert Yamada , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: computer systems in movies In-Reply-To: <20000807233333.N254@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: >On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:48:26PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:26:29AM -1000, Hubert Yamada wrote: >> | I think that we are talking about very custom software written for a very >> | small community, so the development costs on a per-unit basis is >> | absolutely huge. In my case, a lot of the software is one of a kind to >> | control one-of-a-kind hardware, so the software cost is basically the same >> | as my salary, so nobody wants to spend the money to make it pretty. They >> | just want it to work -- which is non-trivial, because the hardware often >> | doesn't perform the way that it is supposed to either. >> >> Well, that's too bad. Because the 'software' on Twister, Contact, The >> Relic, and several other recent movies looks quite cool. It even makes >> people think Unix might actually be friendly. :) >> >> I guess the display on 'The Net' could have been from a real Sun >> workstation, right? >> > >Don't forget BSD9.2 in Die Hard :) I think I saw something on the screen in "Sphere" about BSD and rlogin. I haven't bothered to pause the film to inspect yet tho ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 20: 5:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131D837B9F7 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 20:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16546; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 21:04:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807210216.05750cc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:03:52 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link Cc: fjrm@yahoo.com (Francisco Reyes), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000804094036.05078a20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:37 PM 8/7/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Heh. > >I remember when I found a grevious bug in their C library, >worked dilligently to create a fix, and then told them I >would trade the fix for a T-shirt. > >They didn't want to part with the T-shirt, so I didn't part >with the fix; it cost me significantly more than a T-shirt >worth of time to fix the frigging thing... This sounds like the more recent Borland. The original Borland wasn't that way; they accepted my patches to Turbo Pascal gratefully. But they got huffy after a few years, and stopped listening to developers unless those developers said what they already expected to hear. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 20:29:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B520D37B5A8 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 20:29:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16708; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 21:28:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807210442.056ab2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:28:08 -0600 To: Francisco Reyes , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link Cc: Francisco Reyes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000807234542.5439.rocketmail@web221.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:45 PM 8/7/2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: >The one thing I have never understood is how can a company >so poorly manage have so many good products. > >Also I was very surprised to read that one of the the lead >architects at MS working on C# was one of the lead >architects for Turbo Pascal and Delphi. I am sure MS >offered real big bucks, but for Borland to not have tried >to create an environment (money, stocks, whatever...) for >this person to stay is sad.. > >Or perhaps this person just got tired of working for a >bunch of looser managers/business people. I think it was some of each. The person in question was Anders Hejlsberg, whose Poly Pascal compiler and IDE for the Z80 became Turbo Pascal when Philippe Kahn marketed it in the US. (Contrary to what some magazines have printed, it was Anders -- not Philippe -- who wrote Turbo Pascal.) Anders worked on the compiler for years in his native Denmark and eventually came to the US to work at Borland's headquarters in Scotts Valley. But the company botched its strategy badly, throwing all of its support behind Windows and thereby putting its fate into Microsoft's hands. (Borland didn't realize, though I told their executives repeatedly, that ports of its development tools could empower alternative platforms and give them a real shot at rivaling Microsoft's platforms.) Borland also made bad moves such as the acquisition of Mark of the Unicorn's Final Word (a Gosling EMACS derivative) and of Ashton-Tate. All along, Microsoft preyed on Borland in many ways. It hired away Borland's sharpest employees -- including Brad Silverberg, who doubtless helped them understand how best to hurt Borland once he arrived. It withheld technical documentation and licenses unless Borland dropped potentially competing standards, such as the portable OWL (Object Windows Library). It used a "vaporware" strategy to kill the market for Turbo BASIC (now PowerBasic). In short, it used every trick in the book -- many of them probably not legal -- to damage Borland. In the meantime, Anders continued to work on compilers and fell in love with object-oriented programming. His object-oriented Pascal dialects were full of bells and whistles, and were very powerful; alas, they were also so complex -- more complex than C++! -- that few ever mastered all of their features. When Java came out, Anders wanted to add similar features to Java, but many in the Java community didn't think that the added complexity was worth it. After working for Borland for more than a decade, Hejlsberg found that his stock in the company wasn't worth all that much; it had been crippled by bad strategic decisions and predation by Microsoft. So, when Microsoft offered him a 6-figure bonus plus a chance to extend Java the way he wanted, Hejlsberg jumped ship. His first project was Microsoft's J++ compiler, complete with incompatible extensions. This project has now become C#. It was sad that Hejlsberg decided to go this route rather than working for a promising startup that could give Microsoft a run for its money. As a fan of Borland's technology (though not its boneheaded management), I would much rather have seen Hejlsberg do a leveraged buyout of Borland's language technology and make it successful. But, alas, he sold out for a rather large mess of pottage and a chance to wield some of Microsoft's clout. Personally, I couldn't have lived with myself if I'd done that, but then, I am not Anders. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 22:45:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C131037B67B for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtimg.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.202.208]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20019; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA05356; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200008080548.WAA05356@mindspring.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 2000 23:37:02 -0000." <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:48:19 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Borland has always been a bit strange; Indeed. I used to work pretty closely with them while at SkyTel. For the most part they employed legions of clueless MBA and Marketing yuppie types. One of them ended up being my boss for a while. :-/ Borland always seemed to me as more a part of the problem set than the solution set. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 22:58: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D994437BCEB for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA01011 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 01:49:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008080549.BAA01011@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 01:45:21 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just finished reading a whole bunch of info from 3ware's web site. They even claim to have obtained greater throughput than it is possible with SCS3. To be more specific they claim they achieved 100MB/S performance. I am thinking of getting either a 2 drive or a 4 drive for home and for work I am going to try to convince my boss to go with a 4 drive (2 on Raid 1 and 2 on Raid 0.. if this configuration is possible). francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 23:41:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from knight.cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330C437B5BC for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@knight.cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by knight.cons.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20959; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:39:42 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Francisco Reyes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link Message-ID: <20000808083941.A20815@cons.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000804094036.05078a20@localhost> <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:37:02PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com>, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Alas, Borland has been more guilty than most of jumping > > on bandwagons and ignoring better opportunities. That's why > > they devoted all of their resources to Windows, and nearly > > lost the entire company by doing so. Exactly. Imagine where they could have been by now if they put up the 90ties equivalent to Turbo Pascal for Linux and SunOS in 1995 or 1996. A save, approachable language, Modula-3 maybe, a simple but effective development environment, maybe even tty- based and some kind of stupid GUI library, extensible by the userbase. > I remember when I found a grevious bug in their C library, printf around %.2f, maybe? Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 7 23:49:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-ham-1.netsurf.de (smtp-ham-1.netsurf.de [194.195.64.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9243737B6F0 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoyer@nightfire.de) Received: from mail-ham-1.netsurf.de ([192.168.10.65]) by smtp-ham-1.netsurf.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FYYNHW01.KXP for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:32:20 +0200 Received: from nightfire.de ([195.179.179.135]) by mail-ham-1.netsurf.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with ESMTP id FYYO9P00.VJ4; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:49:01 +0200 Message-ID: <398F20BF.B829A072@nightfire.de> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:49:03 +0200 From: Olaf Hoyer Reply-To: hoyer@nightfire.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de]C-CCK-MCD QXW0322q (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: applixware 5.0 for freebsd References: <20000804143103.A75009@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick schrieb: > > I heard from customer service that applixware 5.0 for BSD (native) is in QA > right now and will hopefully be released in a month. Just in time for > school. :) > > It uses gtk, i believe, and there is no longer a god-forsaken import menu. > 'Open' does it all. Nice to see industry support for BSD, especially on the > desktop. Now if only it wouldn't lag behind Linux by two months. But i > won't complain. > Hi! Well, yes, I am in contact with Applix germany to obtain some copy to show it on a Linuxtag (BSD booth there) in October. They told me that they will send me some sample for testing when its shipped from US to german offices. I already got the Applix 5.0 for Linux, but lots of stress with installation. Those install routine used there expects some really linux-specific stuff (and be it some location of some bloody config/log file) and terminates. Any suggestions to work around? Regards Olaf Hoyer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 3:27:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369D737B5DC for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 03:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jontow@voodoo.minix.cx) Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-0 [24.92.226.74]) by mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26130; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 06:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voodoo.minix.cx ([24.169.74.56]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-53939U80000L80000S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 06:24:57 -0400 Received: by voodoo.minix.cx (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F354F2683; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 05:17:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 05:17:33 -0500 From: Jonathan Towne To: Adam Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000808051732.A7161@minix.cx> References: <20000807233333.N254@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:00:07PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:00:07PM -0400, Adam scribbled: # I think I saw something on the screen in "Sphere" about BSD and rlogin. I # haven't bothered to pause the film to inspect yet tho ;) I was just talking to a guy about this a while ago.. "Sphere" has a lot of this sort of thing in it.. almost looks like it could be possible, even. :P - Jonathan Towne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 5:10:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6636137B643 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 05:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 13M8Cf-000ABY-00; Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:09:53 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:09:53 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: j mckitrick Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000808140953.K61246@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <20000807214856.A9892@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 10:48:26PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick on 2000-08-07 (Mon) at 22:48:26 +0100: > > I guess the display on 'The Net' could have been from a real Sun > workstation, right? "The Net" and similar films would have you believe that most GUIs consist primarlily of a progress bar slowly filling from left to right. (Actually, looking at Windows, that's not too far off the mark.) Anyway, my favourite bit of Hollywood computer science: In the TV series "La Femme Nikita" (I think that's where I saw it!) there was a scene that went something like this: - Good Guy hacks into Bad Guys' mainframe from his laptop. - Good Guy starts stealing ultra secret file/data/virus/whatever. - Ubiquitous progress bar starts slowly growing from left to right. - Bad Guys discover the break-in and activate countermeasures. - Progress bar shrinks back to the left of the screen. -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 5:33:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB3837B90D for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 05:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13M8ZK-0002gg-00; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:33:18 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16710; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:33:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:33:18 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Johann Visagie Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer systems in movies Message-ID: <20000808133318.C16264@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000807214856.A9892@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000808140953.K61246@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000808140953.K61246@fling.sanbi.ac.za>; from wjv@cityip.co.za on Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:09:53PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | "The Net" and similar films would have you believe that most GUIs consist | primarlily of a progress bar slowly filling from left to right. (Actually, | looking at Windows, that's not too far off the mark.) Actually, the Net showed what could have been a Blackbox terminal with programming and other apps. One of the complaints about the movie was that it was too techie for non-computer people. That means maybe they showed computers a bit more like they really are. | - Good Guy hacks into Bad Guys' mainframe from his laptop. | - Good Guy starts stealing ultra secret file/data/virus/whatever. | - Ubiquitous progress bar starts slowly growing from left to right. | - Bad Guys discover the break-in and activate countermeasures. | - Progress bar shrinks back to the left of the screen. Classic !! jm -- ------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly. ------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 5:54:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D7437B53E for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 05:54:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA95275; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:50:35 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:50:34 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link In-Reply-To: <20000807234542.5439.rocketmail@web221.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > --- Terry Lambert wrote: > > They didn't want to part with the T-shirt, so I didn't > > part with the fix; it cost me significantly more than a > > T-shirt worth of time to fix the frigging thing... > > The one thing I have never understood is how can a company > so poorly manage have so many good products. > > Also I was very surprised to read that one of the the lead > architects at MS working on C# was one of the lead > architects for Turbo Pascal and Delphi. I am sure MS > offered real big bucks, but for Borland to not have tried > to create an environment (money, stocks, whatever...) for > this person to stay is sad.. > > Or perhaps this person just got tired of working for a > bunch of looser managers/business people. > It was pretty widely known cas eback then when MS bought off the majority of Borlands compiler team... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 8:38:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F412F37BCEF for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.87.187]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000808163711.WKWV3760.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain> for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:37:11 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01713 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:37:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:37:36 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Question about the *-digest lists Message-ID: <20000808163736.D250@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How often are the *-digest lists mailed out? -- If I buy a copy of WinDelete, and it doesn't delete Windows, am I entitled to my money back? ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 11:42:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55BB37B7DE for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23248; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:41:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000808124017.056a1a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:41:10 -0600 To: Martin Cracauer , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link Cc: Francisco Reyes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000808083941.A20815@cons.org> References: <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000804094036.05078a20@localhost> <200008072337.QAA07470@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:39 AM 8/8/2000, Martin Cracauer wrote: >Exactly. Imagine where they could have been by now if they put up the >90ties equivalent to Turbo Pascal for Linux and SunOS in 1995 or 1996. >A save, approachable language, Modula-3 maybe, a simple but effective >development environment, maybe even tty- based and some kind of stupid >GUI library, extensible by the userbase. They did an implementation for SunOS, believe it or not, in 1985. Never shipped it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 12:19: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08E337C0E2 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.85]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000808191840.XALJ16423.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain> for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:18:40 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA03191 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:18:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:18:07 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000808201807.H250@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone tell me why the call to localtime() in the code below should segfault in tzset()? Running it in the debugger shows that ``t'' is set to a sensible value. Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x280be4c8 in tzset () from /usr/lib/libc.so.4 #include #include int main() { struct tm *timeptr; char buf[BUFSIZ]; size_t size; time_t t; tzset; t = time((time_t *)0); timeptr = localtime((time_t *)t); ..... -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 12:28:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D2B37B695; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:28:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e78JSW914401; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:28:32 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000808201807.H250@parish>; from marko@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 08:18:07PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Mark Ovens [000808 12:21] wrote: > Can anyone tell me why the call to localtime() in the code below > should segfault in tzset()? > > Running it in the debugger shows that ``t'' is set to a sensible > value. > > Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. > 0x280be4c8 in tzset () from /usr/lib/libc.so.4 > > > #include > #include > > int main() { > struct tm *timeptr; > char buf[BUFSIZ]; > size_t size; > time_t t; > > tzset; > > t = time((time_t *)0); > timeptr = localtime((time_t *)t); > > ..... Please don't do disgusting things with casts. Do not cast a time_t to a time_t *, they aren't the same. Don't cast 0 to a pointer type, use NULL. Remove the overzealous casting and your programming error should become clear. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 12:45:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096D337B5A2 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.85]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000808194510.XFOV16423.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:45:10 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA03567; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:44:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:44:55 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000808204455.J250@parish> References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 12:28:32PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 12:28:32PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Mark Ovens [000808 12:21] wrote: > > Can anyone tell me why the call to localtime() in the code below > > should segfault in tzset()? > > > > Running it in the debugger shows that ``t'' is set to a sensible > > value. > > > > Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. > > 0x280be4c8 in tzset () from /usr/lib/libc.so.4 > > > > > > #include > > #include > > > > int main() { > > struct tm *timeptr; > > char buf[BUFSIZ]; > > size_t size; > > time_t t; > > > > tzset; > > > > t = time((time_t *)0); > > timeptr = localtime((time_t *)t); > > > > ..... > > Please don't do disgusting things with casts. > > Do not cast a time_t to a time_t *, they aren't the same. > Arghh! The perils of copy 'n' pasting. I spend ages staring at it trying to see the error then as soon as someone points it out it leaps out at me ("wood" and "trees" spring to mind). Thanks. > Don't cast 0 to a pointer type, use NULL. > > Remove the overzealous casting and your programming error should > become clear. > > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 13:35:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (shark.IfA.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.162.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7646C37B539 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yamada@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu) Received: from localhost (yamada@localhost) by shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00690; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:34:05 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from yamada@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:34:05 -1000 (HST) From: "Hubert T. Yamada" To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: computer systems in movies In-Reply-To: <20000807224826.A10527@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, that's too bad. Because the 'software' on Twister, Contact, The > Relic, and several other recent movies looks quite cool. It even makes > people think Unix might actually be friendly. :) Well, there are some GUIs and some real-time displays, and some of the software is actually easy to use. It doesn't have any of the polish and bells and whistles that Hollywood has, though. Graphical displays tend to be pretty rudimentary. There tend to be a lot of screens filled with numbers and buttons and text-entry fields, and the only graphical elements are the ones that are really useful. Hubert -- Hubert Yamada, University of Hawaii, Institute for Astronomy phone: (808)956-6648 e-mail: yamada@newton.ifa.hawaii.edu OR yamada@hawaii.edu WWW: http://ccd.ifa.hawaii.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 15: 0:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D0E37BA31 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24046; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:58:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQ0aG1U; Tue Aug 8 14:58:22 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05075; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:59:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008082159.OAA05075@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: www.tucows.com messed up with BSD link To: cracauer@cons.org (Martin Cracauer) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:59:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), fjrm@yahoo.com (Francisco Reyes), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000808083941.A20815@cons.org> from "Martin Cracauer" at Aug 08, 2000 08:39:42 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I remember when I found a grevious bug in their C library, > > printf around %.2f, maybe? If you are a Borland person, and you read this, and you fix the bug, you damn well owe me a T-shirt! The bug was a sign extension bug in one of the non-builtin string manipulation functions, which caused it to return the incorrect value on a subsequent comparison. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 17:45:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D12BB37B88B for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 11866 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2000 00:45:23 -0000 Received: from du215.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.215) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 9 Aug 2000 00:45:23 -0000 Message-ID: <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 18:34:46 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C time functions - problem References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Mark Ovens [000808 12:21] wrote: > > Can anyone tell me why the call to localtime() in the code below > > should segfault in tzset()? > > > > Running it in the debugger shows that ``t'' is set to a sensible > > value. > > > > Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. > > 0x280be4c8 in tzset () from /usr/lib/libc.so.4 > > > > > > #include > > #include > > > > int main() { > > struct tm *timeptr; > > char buf[BUFSIZ]; > > size_t size; > > time_t t; > > > > tzset; > > > > t = time((time_t *)0); > > timeptr = localtime((time_t *)t); > > > > ..... > > Please don't do disgusting things with casts. > > Do not cast a time_t to a time_t *, they aren't the same. > > Don't cast 0 to a pointer type, use NULL. Or just use 0. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 18:22:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CBD37B8B5 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id UAA9238205 Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:16:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:20:23 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: computer systems in movies In-Reply-To: <20000807153046.A6595@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The computer displays on "Hollow Man" were the first impressive ones I've seen in a long time. The button bar they were using looked quite a bit like KDE. Its too bad Dan O'Bannon isn't still doing display design. His work on Darkstar and Star Wars was fun, if a bit cheesey. [RC] On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > This might be a REALLY stupid question, but here goes.... > > In movies with hi-tech or research premises, we often see > sophisticated computer programs running on state of the art terminals. Now, > obviously, many times these are simply made-up special effects. But, are > there any REAL programs out there that inspired them? For example, > GUI-based real-time 3D molecule displays, frequency analyzers, real-time > systems displays (like for satellites) or are all of these simply works of > fiction? If they *do* exist, do they run on proprietary OS's? Unix? SGI > workstations? > > jm > -- > ------------------------------------------- > Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org > ------------------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 19:17:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24FB237B8EE for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA83186; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:17:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA14292; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:17:13 -0400 (EDT) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: fran@reyes.somos.net ("Francisco Reyes") Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 02:11:35 GMT Message-ID: <3990bd61.156080972@mail.sentex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Aug 2000 01:59:20 -0400, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: >Just finished reading a whole bunch of info from 3ware's web >site. They even claim to have obtained greater throughput than >it is possible with SCS3. To be more specific they claim they >achieved 100MB/S performance. They are not bad little boards for the money. I am using one in our proxy server and just about to put one into our news server. The only thing lacking at this point are any management FreeBSD management tools. However, I am using them for RAID 0, so I dont really care at this point as I just want speed. Hopefully 3mware will give msmith the info he needs in order to create this program sometime in the future. ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 22:24: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929B837B9FA for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07429; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:53:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200008090517.BAA62285@entropy.tmok.com> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 14:53:41 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: wonko@entropy.tmok.com Subject: Re: hotmail now running win2000 Cc: irwanhadi@iname.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@hub.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Aug-00 Brian Hechinger wrote: > Daniel O'Connor drunkenly mumbled... > > Personally I would wire something up to the reset switch instead.. > > Much less potential for accidentally nuking your hardware if your script is > > broken and starts toggling machines on and off like mad.. > > (much less violent on disk etc too) > but how feasable is that for a large installation. would you like to pull > 2000 machines apart and make the needed modifications? the masterswitch > solutions is "plug 'n play" it just a powerstip as far as i''m concerned. Well, if you have a procedure for doing it when you build the machines, it probably wouldn't take much more effort.. The powerstrip is simpler though :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 8 22:48:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from entropy.tmok.com (entropy.tmok.com [204.17.163.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6028C37B98D for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wonko@entropy.tmok.com) Received: (from wonko@localhost) by entropy.tmok.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA62721; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:53:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hechinger Message-Id: <200008090553.BAA62721@entropy.tmok.com> Subject: Re: hotmail now running win2000 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Connor" at "Aug 9, 2000 2:53:41 pm" To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Cc: irwanhadi@iname.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@hub.org Reply-To: wonko@entropy.tmok.com X-Useless-Header: why? because i can. X-Organization: The Ministry of Knowledge X-Dreams: an OpenWin that is based on current MIT X11 releases X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor drunkenly mumbled... > > Well, if you have a procedure for doing it when you build the machines, it > probably wouldn't take much more effort.. take out of box mount in cabinet plug in power and ethernet installation finished. > The powerstrip is simpler though :) much. :) -brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 0:58:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85CE37B7B3 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA04370; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 03:49:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008090749.DAA04370@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Mike Tancsa" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 03:59:01 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <3990bd61.156080972@mail.sentex.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 02:11:35 GMT, Mike Tancsa wrote: >They are not bad little boards for the money. I am using one in our proxy >server and just about to put one into our news server. The only thing >lacking at this point are any management FreeBSD management tools. How did you configure it? Controller Bios prior to booting? Which model are you using. I am thinking of the 6400. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 14:30:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [206.24.105.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B4D37B62B for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E505920F04; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Length: 1756 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3990bd61.156080972@mail.sentex.net> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 14:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: (Mike Tancsa) Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Cc: chat@freebsd.org, ("Francisco Reyes") Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Aug-00 Mike Tancsa wrote: > On 8 Aug 2000 01:59:20 -0400, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: > >>Just finished reading a whole bunch of info from 3ware's web >>site. They even claim to have obtained greater throughput than >>it is possible with SCS3. To be more specific they claim they >>achieved 100MB/S performance. > > They are not bad little boards for the money. I am using one in our proxy > server and just about to put one into our news server. The only thing > lacking at this point are any management FreeBSD management tools. > However, I am using them for RAID 0, so I dont really care at this point as > I just want speed. Hopefully 3mware will give msmith the info he needs in > order to create this program sometime in the future. > Why is it that there are no RAID 5 controlers for IDE? Nicole > ---Mike > Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) > Sentex Communications Corp, > Waterloo, Ontario, Canada > "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers > could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Strong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In/Virused Your Computer Today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 15: 8:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BC637BB48; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e79M84H22408; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:08:04 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000809150804.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Tue, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:34:46PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Thomas M. Sommers [000808 17:46] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > Don't cast 0 to a pointer type, use NULL. > > Or just use 0. Not if you want me to accept the code. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 16:21:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2263737BB72 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon4499.tstt.net.tt [209.94.221.5]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with ESMTP id TAA68944; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:20:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3991E74D.B9428C4A@uwi.tt> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 19:20:45 -0400 From: "Dale E. Chulhan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , feisal@uwi.tt Subject: Slow response from inetd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know why I could be getting a slow response to initiating telnet sessions and ftp sessions but top still says that my load is light? Normal operations are ok.... X windows is fine... it is just that inetd is taking forever to load a process.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 16:58: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wilsonandhorton.co.nz (fw2.wilsonandhorton.co.nz [203.99.66.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4222137B5FF for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@itouch.co.nz) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by wilsonandhorton.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01420; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:57:26 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:57:26 +1200 From: Jonathan Chen To: "Dale E. Chulhan" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Slow response from inetd Message-ID: <20000810115726.B718@jonc.ntdns.wilsonandhorton.co.n> References: <3991E74D.B9428C4A@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3991E74D.B9428C4A@uwi.tt>; from dchulhan@uwi.tt on Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 07:20:45PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 07:20:45PM -0400, Dale E. Chulhan wrote: > Does anyone know why I could be getting a slow response to initiating telnet > sessions and ftp sessions but top still says that my load is light? > > Normal operations are ok.... X windows is fine... it is just that inetd is > taking forever to load a process.. Telnet and ftp attempt a reverse-dns lookup. If your DNS settings are incorrect, it'll take about a minute before something happens. -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "A person should be able to do a small bit of everything, specialisation is for insects" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 17:57:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB5D37B7D1 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon4499.tstt.net.tt [209.94.221.5]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with ESMTP id UAA107492; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:55:15 -0400 Message-ID: <3991FD90.511D6EC9@uwi.tt> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:55:45 -0400 From: "Dale E. Chulhan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: My List , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Non-standard internal addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The private IP network allocations include one Class A network, 10.0.0.0; 16 Class B networks, 172.16.0.0-172.31.0.0; and 256 Class C networks, 192.168.0.0-192.168.255.0 What are the ramifications of using non allocated addresses for an INTRANET connecting to the outside world through a proxy using say 200.0.0.1-200.0.0.255 255.255.0.0 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 19:10:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cage.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9F037B7EA for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp (chimp [192.168.0.2]) by cage.simianscience.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13640; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 22:09:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000809220035.04baf4d0@mail.sentex.net> X-Sender: mdtancsa@mail.sentex.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:03:52 -0400 To: "Nicole Harrington." From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <3990bd61.156080972@mail.sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:30 PM 8/9/2000 -0700, Nicole Harrington. wrote: >On 09-Aug-00 Mike Tancsa wrote: > > On 8 Aug 2000 01:59:20 -0400, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: > > > >>Just finished reading a whole bunch of info from 3ware's web > >>site. They even claim to have obtained greater throughput than > >>it is possible with SCS3. To be more specific they claim they > >>achieved 100MB/S performance. > > > > They are not bad little boards for the money. I am using one in our proxy > > server and just about to put one into our news server. The only thing > > lacking at this point are any management FreeBSD management tools. > > However, I am using them for RAID 0, so I dont really care at this point as > > I just want speed. Hopefully 3mware will give msmith the info he needs in > > order to create this program sometime in the future. > > > > Why is it that there are no RAID 5 controlers for IDE? There are external ones from a few companies that are presented as a SCSI interface. I think ultimately in a server, many user environment, SCSI will do better with the proper driver implementation. ---Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Network Administration, mike@sentex.net Sentex Communications www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 22:31:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F16E37B775 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 22:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 3971 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2000 05:31:10 -0000 Received: from du28.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.28) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 10 Aug 2000 05:31:10 -0000 Message-ID: <39923E04.94A1B30E@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:30:44 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C time functions - problem References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net> <20000809150804.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Thomas M. Sommers [000808 17:46] wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > Don't cast 0 to a pointer type, use NULL. > > > > Or just use 0. > > Not if you want me to accept the code. According to the (draft) standard, section 6.3.2.3: "An integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression cast to type void *, is called a null pointer constant. If a null pointer constant is converted to a pointer type, the resulting pointer, called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to any object or function." There are very few circumstances in which you need to cast 0 to make it a null pointer constant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 23:52:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF7D37B92F for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:51:45 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07310; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:52:46 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: "Dale E. Chulhan" Cc: My List , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Non-standard internal addressing Message-ID: <20000809235246.A5405@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <3991FD90.511D6EC9@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3991FD90.511D6EC9@uwi.tt>; from dchulhan@uwi.tt on Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 08:55:45PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 08:55:45PM -0400, Dale E. Chulhan wrote: > The private IP network allocations include one Class A network, 10.0.0.0; 16 > Class B networks, 172.16.0.0-172.31.0.0; and 256 Class C networks, > 192.168.0.0-192.168.255.0 > > What are the ramifications of using non allocated addresses for an INTRANET > connecting to the outside world through a proxy using say 200.0.0.1-200.0.0.255 > 255.255.0.0 $ whois -a 200.0.0.1 HOCOL S.A. (NETBLK-SHELL) NETBLK-SHELL 200.0.0.0 - 200.0.7.0 HOCOL S.A. (NET-SHELL-1) SHELL-1 200.0.0.0 . . [snip] $ whois -a '!NET-SHELL-1' HOCOL S.A. (NET-SHELL-1) Bocagrande Carrerea 3a. No. 8-06 Apartado Aereo 0083 Cartagena CO . . [snip] The BIG problem: How are you going to route to those addresses? What if you want to send some packets to Columbia? The LESS BIG problem: If you leak packets, they'll likely find their way to 200/24. Excuse the national stereotypes, but you sure you want some Columbians mad at you for DoS'ing their systems? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 9 23:53: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A7D37B64F; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:52:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e7A6qrl04226; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:52:53 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000809235253.O4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net> <20000809150804.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39923E04.94A1B30E@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <39923E04.94A1B30E@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:30:44AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Thomas M. Sommers [000809 22:31] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > * Thomas M. Sommers [000808 17:46] wrote: > > > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > > > Don't cast 0 to a pointer type, use NULL. > > > > > > Or just use 0. > > > > Not if you want me to accept the code. > > According to the (draft) standard, section 6.3.2.3: > > "An integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression > cast to type void *, is called a null pointer constant. If a null > pointer constant is converted to a pointer type, the resulting pointer, > called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to > any object or function." > > There are very few circumstances in which you need to cast 0 to make it > a null pointer constant. That's not the point, the point is if you want _me_ to accept the code you better be using 0/NULL/'\0' like so: char x = '\0'; int *y = NULL; int z = 0; If you want to run code that does it a different way past someone else that's fine by me. I was merely stating my preference on the correct usage of NULL/0/nul. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 4:34:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E09B37BD1E for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon4545.tstt.net.tt [209.94.221.51]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with ESMTP id HAA147806; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 07:32:28 -0400 Message-ID: <399292E1.24EF4489@uwi.tt> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 07:32:49 -0400 From: "Dale E. Chulhan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: The best URLs all year Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know about you guys but I wished I found these quite some time ago: I hope it is of use and is not conflicting with anones policies to post these here. http://www.wanresources.com/protocol.html http://www.decodes.com/ http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/ito_doc/index.htm http://www.sangoma.com/tutorial.htm http://www.protocols.com/ http://www.radcom-inc.com/acad/protocols.htm ***** http://www.3com.com/solutions/cb3500/layer3sw2e.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 8:58:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8DA37B557 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:58:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08452; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:50:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008101550.LAA08452@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "(Mike Tancsa)" , "Nicole Harrington." Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:59:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 14:30:33 -0700 (PDT), Nicole Harrington. wrote: >Why is it that there are no RAID 5 controlers for IDE? I believe that the folks are 3ware are working on 1. Write to them and ask. I had a brief talk to them recently and they were very informative and helpfull. I believe it has to do with higher complexity of implementation. Even just Raid 0, 1 and 10 are a very good start for IDE. SCSI raid and drives is just too expensive for small servers. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 9:11:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE93B37B595 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12316; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:12:21 +0300 (IDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:12:21 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000810191221.A12280@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net> <20000809150804.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39923E04.94A1B30E@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39923E04.94A1B30E@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:30:44AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:30:44AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > According to the (draft) standard, section 6.3.2.3: > > "An integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression > cast to type void *, is called a null pointer constant. If a null > pointer constant is converted to a pointer type, the resulting pointer, > called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to > any object or function." > > There are very few circumstances in which you need to cast 0 to make it > a null pointer constant. I am not aware of any such circumstances at all. 0 can always be used instead of NULL, and, since I find it completely unambiguous, I always use 0 for null pointers. About the only time you need to cast 0 is when you pass it to a variable-parameters function as one of the free parameters. However, in that case, you need to cast BOTH 0 and NULL. There's no difference. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 9:23:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC0837B658 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08561; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:14:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008101614.MAA08561@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Mike Tancsa" , "Nicole Harrington." Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:24:06 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000809220035.04baf4d0@mail.sentex.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:03:52 -0400, Mike Tancsa wrote: >There are external ones from a few companies that are presented as a SCSI >interface. I think ultimately in a server, many user environment, SCSI >will do better with the proper driver implementation. Although people usually think performance there is the other real big factor.. cost. As FreeBSD starts to make it's way into corporations/organizations more and more it will be used in places where a mix of performance and cost are considered. An IDE raid may be good for that mix. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 9:29:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.159.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.159]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6158C37BA89 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA41993 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:27:40 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:27:39 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Chuckie is Back!! :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20000807&mode=classic Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 10:46:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3193C37B53C for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA86938; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:46:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:46:17 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C time functions - problem In-Reply-To: <20000810191221.A12280@happy.checkpoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: :On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:30:44AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: :> :> "An integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression :> cast to type void *, is called a null pointer constant. If a null :> pointer constant is converted to a pointer type, the resulting pointer, :> called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to :> any object or function." :> :> There are very few circumstances in which you need to cast 0 to make it :> a null pointer constant. : :I am not aware of any such circumstances at all. 0 can always be used :instead of NULL, and, since I find it completely unambiguous, I always :use 0 for null pointers. This is only true on systems where 0 is not a valid address. On such systems, NULL pointers aren't equal to 0. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 10:51:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741E437B685 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA13332; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:52:35 +0300 (IDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:52:35 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: David Scheidt Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C time functions - problem Message-ID: <20000810205235.A13316@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000810191221.A12280@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:46:17PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:46:17PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > :On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:30:44AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > :> > :> "An integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression > :> cast to type void *, is called a null pointer constant. If a null > :> pointer constant is converted to a pointer type, the resulting pointer, > :> called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to > :> any object or function." > :> > :> There are very few circumstances in which you need to cast 0 to make it > :> a null pointer constant. > : > :I am not aware of any such circumstances at all. 0 can always be used > :instead of NULL, and, since I find it completely unambiguous, I always > :use 0 for null pointers. > > This is only true on systems where 0 is not a valid address. On such > systems, NULL pointers aren't equal to 0. This is incorrect. The underlying representation of the NULL pointer is totally irrelevant. The compiler treats the integer constant 0 as the null pointer, and the programmer should never worry about how the null pointer is actually represented. Thus comparing a pointer with 0 will always test it for being a null pointer, regardless of how null pointer is represented on the particular architecture. See the standard or a FAQ for more details. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 11: 3:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE43B37BAAB for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:03:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA02485; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Mike Tancsa , "Nicole Harrington." , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? In-Reply-To: <200008101614.MAA08561@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Although people usually think performance there is the other > real big factor.. cost. > As FreeBSD starts to make it's way into > corporations/organizations more and more it will be used in > places where a mix of performance and cost are considered. An > IDE raid may be good for that mix. If you are going to be spending money for multiple discs to create an array, you have decided that cost is reduced in importance compared to either performance or reliability or both. If you need to purchase a special card anyway (I haven't looked at the price of this IDE setup), it seems to me that cost becomes a much smaller factor. You double or quadruple your disc cost in either case. You buy a marginally cheaper interface card but take a performance hit with IDE compared to SCSI. SCSI is much more flexible with the number of discs connected, not to mention the ability to add a tape that can handle your needs in throughput and capacity. (RAID is not substitute for backups, IMHO.) The cost of even a moderately pricey server ($4,000) is small change for any business with at least two employees who are not the propreitor's brothers-in-law. One could get SCSI with RAID in a box for under $2,500 by my guesstimation that could handle any small LAN and its users. I don't see much benefit in this. Maybe you save a couple hundred bucks or ten percent on your server with some detracting issues? This sounds like a solution looking for a problem, as I have heard it said recently. This is merely my $.02. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 11:34: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831DE37B7AE for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA51925; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:33:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from simoeon.sentex.net (simeon.sentex.ca [209.112.4.47]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA20485; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000810140659.04a1cc40@marble.sentex.ca> X-Sender: mdtpop@marble.sentex.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:29:38 -0400 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200008101614.MAA08561@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:14 AM 8/10/00 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: >On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Although people usually think performance there is the other > > real big factor.. cost. > > As FreeBSD starts to make it's way into > > corporations/organizations more and more it will be used in > > places where a mix of performance and cost are considered. An > > IDE raid may be good for that mix. >The cost of even a moderately pricey server ($4,000) is small change for >any business with at least two employees who are not the propreitor's >brothers-in-law. One could get SCSI with RAID in a box for under $2,500 by >my guesstimation that could handle any small LAN and its users. > >I don't see much benefit in this. Maybe you save a couple hundred bucks or >ten percent on your server with some detracting issues? This sounds like a >solution looking for a problem, as I have heard it said recently. This is >merely my $.02. I certainly agree that RAID IDE is no complete replacement for SCSI RAID, but I think there are some situations where it is very cost effective.... Using average prices (US dollars) for an 120GIG USENET partition for example. IDE RAID card $200 4 x 40GIG IDE $250 ----- $1200 vs Mylex SCSI RAID $500 4x 7200 36G IBM $500 ----- $2500 Thats quite a cost difference. Even if the failure rate is 1yr vs 2yrs for the IDE drives, I can easily replace them all and still come out ahead cost wise. Or better yet, get the 8 port controller , and strip another 2 drives to the 4 drive mix to get even more space/performance out of it. Is this correct for all situations ? No of course not. But, there is certainly a spot for _some_ applications... I have found compared to a DAC960 based SCSI array, in terms of raw throughput and random IO they are very close. In my production environment, my news server is not running near capacity, so the machine's overall requirements are easily met by the IDE RAID solution. I save quite a bit on my budget which I can target to more needed areas than USENET but at the same time have a better news retention period. ---Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Sentex Communications mike@sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 11:47:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7334637B9EE for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:47:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 9469 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2000 18:47:56 -0000 Received: from du159.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.159) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 10 Aug 2000 18:47:56 -0000 Message-ID: <3992F8C5.6ABC6EC6@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:47:33 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C time functions - problem References: <20000808201807.H250@parish> <20000808122832.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39908B06.D1238928@mail.ptd.net> <20000809150804.L4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39923E04.94A1B30E@mail.ptd.net> <20000810191221.A12280@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:30:44AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > According to the (draft) standard, section 6.3.2.3: > > > > "An integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression > > cast to type void *, is called a null pointer constant. If a null > > pointer constant is converted to a pointer type, the resulting pointer, > > called a null pointer, is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to > > any object or function." > > > > There are very few circumstances in which you need to cast 0 to make it > > a null pointer constant. > > I am not aware of any such circumstances at all. 0 can always be used > instead of NULL, and, since I find it completely unambiguous, I always > use 0 for null pointers. > > About the only time you need to cast 0 is when you pass it to > a variable-parameters function as one of the free parameters. However, > in that case, you need to cast BOTH 0 and NULL. There's no difference. That is the circumstance I was referring to. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 12:22: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [206.24.105.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFCC37BADA for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2322F20F04; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Content-Length: 2592 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:21:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , Mike Tancsa , Francisco Reyes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Aug-00 Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > >> Although people usually think performance there is the other >> real big factor.. cost. >> As FreeBSD starts to make it's way into >> corporations/organizations more and more it will be used in >> places where a mix of performance and cost are considered. An >> IDE raid may be good for that mix. > > If you are going to be spending money for multiple discs to create an > array, you have decided that cost is reduced in importance compared to > either performance or reliability or both. If you need to purchase a > special card anyway (I haven't looked at the price of this IDE setup), it > seems to me that cost becomes a much smaller factor. > > You double or quadruple your disc cost in either case. You buy a > marginally cheaper interface card but take a performance hit with IDE > compared to SCSI. SCSI is much more flexible with the number of discs > connected, not to mention the ability to add a tape that can handle your > needs in throughput and capacity. (RAID is not substitute for backups, > IMHO.) > > The cost of even a moderately pricey server ($4,000) is small change for > any business with at least two employees who are not the propreitor's > brothers-in-law. One could get SCSI with RAID in a box for under $2,500 by > my guesstimation that could handle any small LAN and its users. > > I don't see much benefit in this. Maybe you save a couple hundred bucks or > ten percent on your server with some detracting issues? This sounds like a > solution looking for a problem, as I have heard it said recently. This is > merely my $.02. > > Thank you, > Jason C. Wells Yes and No. For small capacity RAID arrays this is true. But with the low cost availability of large capacity disks (40-75 gigs each) you can construct a very nice very LARGE RAID array for storing infrequently used data were throughput and speed is not as great an issue but uptime and availability are. At least this is my need. Nicole nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Strong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In/Virused Your Computer Today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 12:31:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A4837BBE9 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA18747; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Mike Tancsa Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000810140659.04a1cc40@marble.sentex.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mike Tancsa wrote: > I certainly agree that RAID IDE is no complete replacement for SCSI RAID, > but I think there are some situations where it is very cost effective.... > Using average prices (US dollars) for an 120GIG USENET partition for example. > > IDE RAID card $200 > 4 x 40GIG IDE $250 > ----- > $1200 > > vs > > Mylex SCSI RAID $500 > 4x 7200 36G IBM $500 > ----- > $2500 I had considered using only a SCSI card with software RAID and I did not realize there was such a disparity in the price of drives. I other words, I see your point. The price advantage is much larger than I had assumed. Thanks, Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 12:50:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (shell.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC5937B5BF for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:50:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:50:31 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Dale E. Chulhan" , "My List" , Subject: RE: Non-standard internal addressing Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3991FD90.511D6EC9@uwi.tt> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The private IP network allocations include one Class A network, > 10.0.0.0; 16 > Class B networks, 172.16.0.0-172.31.0.0; and 256 Class C networks, > 192.168.0.0-192.168.255.0 > What are the ramifications of using non allocated addresses for > an INTRANET > connecting to the outside world through a proxy using say > 200.0.0.1-200.0.0.255 > 255.255.0.0 Well, one company I worked for used non-allocated addresses for its Intranet. Everything worked just fine until they signed their largest contract ever with a large airplane manufacturer. Turns out that this airplane manufacturer had been actually assigned the same block of IP addresses they randomly chose for their Intranet. Surprise, surprise -- our new largest customer couldn't access any of our protected servers. Is there some advantage to not using the private address space? This should be an no-brainer. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 15:35: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E7E37B51F; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA62702; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuckie is Back!! :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20000807&mode=classic ITYM "Beastie" Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 19: 4:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDBE37BB96 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA86655 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:04:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [humorix] "Brown Orifice" Is Only The Beginning (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:00:33 -0500 From: James Baughn Reply-To: humorix@nl.linux.org To: humorix@nl.linux.org Subject: [humorix] "Brown Orifice" Is Only The Beginning "Brown Orifice" Is Only The Beginning August 10, 2000 Last week security holes were found in Netscape's Java implementation that allowed it to act as a web server. Earlier today, a hacker announced that he had found vulnerabilities in Mozilla M17 that allow it to operate as a web browser. And that's just the beginning. Said "3l337h4x0r", the discoverer of the M17 exploit, "This is quite a hack! By manipulating some internal functions, I was able to use M17 to actually surf the web. Slashdot and Humorix rendered beautifully." Mozilla engineers were stunned. "This shouldn't be possible. M17 contains a newsreader, a mail client, an instant messenger client, and a whole bunch of XUL acronymn-enriched stuff, but it shouldn't be able to handle HTTP or HTML. We haven't been planning on adding web-surfing functionality to Mozilla until M30... maybe M25 at the earliest. I suspect this whole thing is a hoax." It doesn't appear to be a hoax, however. Mr. 3l337h4x0r demonstrated his hack for us here at Humorix World Headquarters. It was quite impressive. The Slashdot homepage loaded in about 0.003 seconds, which is a sharp improvement over Netscape 4.73, which often crashes before rendering anything. Said the hacker, "This modified Mozilla software really kicks butt. Internet Explorer is toast." Exploits have also been discovered in other software programs during the past week. By exploiting a series of holes in the LISP interpreter, it's possible to use Emacs as a text editor. "Emacs has always made an excellent kitchen sink," said Reinhard Langer, the discoverer of the security flaw. "But the only thing that it can't do is edit text files. Until now." One GNU project programmer responded, "Wow! I didn't know Emacs could be used for things beyond Eliza and Dissociated Press. And here I've been editing Emacs LISP source code using vi for all these years..." Microsoft programs haven't been immune to exploits, either. An old maxim in the Unix community states, "All programs expand until they can read mail... except Microsoft Outlook." Well, that's no longer true. By taking advantage of loopholes in several undocumented APIs, a team of geeks were able to transform Outlook from a virus-delivery system into an actual mail client. "It was quite a feat to accomplish this," said one of the geeks. "I mean, the rat's nest that is the Windows API can be used to frighten small children... or adults. And the frequency by which Outlook exploits are discovered is directly proportional to the number of times Bill Gates uses the word 'innovation'. But this is the first time somebody has discovered a beneficial exploit." Microsoft has vowed to release a patch to fix the uncovered security flaws. "We simply cannot tolerate unauthorized reverse engineering and hacking of our innovative solutions. Our Security Response Team will pull an all-nighter to eliminate these known issues." - Humorix: Linux and Open Source(nontm) on a lighter note Archive: http://humbolt.nl.linux.org/lists/ Web site: http://www.i-want-a-website.com/about-linux/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 20:31:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C99537BE79 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:31:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA36331; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:31:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18887; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:31:39 -0400 (EDT) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: fran@reyes.somos.net ("Francisco Reyes") Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 03:26:10 GMT Message-ID: <39937053.332963616@mail.sentex.net> References: <3990bd61.156080972@mail.sentex.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Aug 2000 03:58:25 -0400, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: >On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 02:11:35 GMT, Mike Tancsa wrote: > >>They are not bad little boards for the money. I am using one in our proxy >>server and just about to put one into our news server. The only thing >>lacking at this point are any management FreeBSD management tools. > >How did you configure it? Controller Bios prior to booting? >Which model are you using. I am thinking of the 6400. Yes, controller BIOS. I am using a couple of 4 ports and now one two port on the 5000 series of cards. Speed is pretty good on RAID0 which I am using for a news spool and a proxy server. Hopefully there will be some management software soon. Once thats in place, and things are working OK, I will try it as a RAID1 device. same drives on the same machine: Quantun 7200RPM 15gig drives, some simple numbers... ------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 300 18638 97.0 36388 73.0 11448 26.0 13001 98.6 46468 45.3 341.9 4.0 300 17829 93.8 18565 32.7 8792 20.3 12535 95.4 22437 21.2 200.6 2.2 First is RAID0, second is the same drive on the Intel PIIX4 ATA33 controller by itself. ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 21:21:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F63C37C000 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:21:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA22955; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: David Schwartz Cc: "Dale E. Chulhan" , My List , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Non-standard internal addressing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > Surprise, surprise -- our new largest customer couldn't access any of our > protected servers. Sorry to slide sidewise into this discussion. Do you mean to tell me that one private network that was connected to the real internet could not talk to another private network that was connected to the real internet? I was kind of taken back on this. Doesn't NAT handle all the BS in between no matter what? I am curious to know the caveats here if you can spare the time. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 22:24:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80CD537BEFD for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA10534; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 01:16:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008110516.BAA10534@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Mike Tancsa" , "Nicole Harrington." Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 01:25:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT), Jason C. Wells wrote: >If you are going to be spending money for multiple discs to create an >array, you have decided that cost is reduced in importance compared to >either performance or reliability or both. Not true. To most companies with real world budgets (i.e. not startups with too much money and not a good CFO to handle them) cost is ALWAYS an issue. The closer you are to the person involved with creating the budget and managing it the more you can see it. There are lots of decisions that take place that one who doesn't deal with the budget people are not aware. >If you need to purchase a >special card anyway (I haven't looked at the price of this IDE setup), 3Ware 2 port $100 3Ware 4 port $220 3Ware 8 port $340 >You double or quadruple your disc cost in either case. You must be thinking of the case where one would replace ONE SCSI drive for multiple IDE drives. That is not the case I am presenting. I am presenting a case where one wants RAID either way. IDE is way cheaper than SCSI. ANY SCSI raid controller STARTS on the $500+ range and EACH scsi drive is more expensive than any IDE drive. >marginally cheaper interface card but take a performance hit with IDE >compared to SCSI. Have you tried them? Have you read their white papers? I will be trying one next week and then I should know (I am placing the order tomorrow). >SCSI is much more flexible with the number of discs >connected, There are different solutions to different problems. This "flexibility" may NEVER be required. Example I have a mail server running with 2Gig TOTAL HD space. Any single 10Gig drive will be more than enough. RAID 1 will give me more reliability, but in terms of needing more than 2 drives... in this case it will never happen. I will never need 7 or 14 drives on that small setup. Howver just having one drive on a non RAID system can disrupt operation for anywhere from 30 minutes to hours. For >not to mention the ability to add a tape that can handle your >needs in throughput and capacity. Anyone with many computers/servers will be able to tell you that trying to do backup from each individual computer is a nightmare so tape on each machine is useless. >(RAID is not substitute for backups, IMHO. It is not, but it helps to reduce downtime. Where I work we are open from 8am to 1am 5 days a week and a few hours less saturday and sunday. We don't have the budget to have someone who will know how to do a restore during all the hours of operation. RAID could keep the system running overnight until the next day in case of a drive failure. A good backup will not. >The cost of even a moderately pricey server ($4,000) is small change for >any business with at least two employees who are not the propreitor's >brothers-in-law. I take it you have never been on a company that was thinking of layofs or had their budget cut significantly. At work my boss had his budget cut almost 1/3. > One could get SCSI with RAID in a box for under $2,500 by >my guesstimation that could handle any small LAN and its users. One could get IDE raid for under $1000. >I don't see much benefit in this. Maybe you save a couple hundred bucks or >ten percent on your server with some detracting issues? On a big system you could save 3 to 4 times. Let's see some prices on a RAID 10 system with 4 drives Case I SCSI 1 controller $400+ 4 9GB drives $876 (IBM 7200RPM Ultra SCSI) Total size available 18GB at a cost of $1200+ Case II IDE 1 controller $220 4 15GB (ATA100 IBM drives 7200RPM) $476 Total size 30GB at a cost of less than $700 A savings of almost 40% and 50% more storage. As the systems grow we still have a big difference in terms of prices for drives 76GB IBM ATA 100 $549 73GB Seagate ultra160 SCA2 $1300 Sure the SCSI on the high end will smoke the IDEs, but that is not what people looking for big IDE drives are in search off. We are probably looking for an archive/temp storage/ staging area where speed is not crucial, but we needs lots and logs of storage. Let it be know that I tried the cheapest SCSIs I could find for the comparisons that were close to the IDE specs. If one goes with more expensive brands/models then the price differentiation is even worse. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 10 22:27:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20FC37BF07 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA10550; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 01:18:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008110518.BAA10550@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Nicole Harrington." Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Mike Tancsa" Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 01:28:18 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:21:13 -0700 (PDT), Nicole Harrington. wrote: > But with the low cost >availability of large capacity disks (40-75 gigs each) you can construct a very >nice very LARGE RAID array for storing infrequently used data were throughput >and speed is not as great an issue but uptime and availability are. > At least this is my need. Exactly! In my case the data will be mostly temporary. I just need a large amount of space that would be too expensive with SCSI. I am doing a system next week and the whole thing will be 140Gig (2 40GB in RAID 1 and 2 60GB on RAID0). Total cost using an existing computer... under $1300. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 3:44:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web106.yahoomail.com (web106.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BD9337C05A for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 03:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thallgren@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 17031 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2000 10:44:46 -0000 Message-ID: <20000811104446.17030.qmail@web106.yahoomail.com> Received: from [193.15.249.14] by web106.yahoomail.com; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 03:44:46 PDT Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 03:44:46 -0700 (PDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tommy=20Hallgren?= Subject: Yahoo! Messenger To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Christian Murray , Fredrik Kjellberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks! I discovered today that there now is a Yahoo! Messenger client for FreeBSD and Linux! Excellent! Read more at: http://messenger.yahoo.com/messenger/download/unix.html Regards, Tommy ===== Tommy Hallgren thallgren@yahoo.com Tel: +46 (0)733 - 174 201 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 4:10:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CF737B70A for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 04:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C971F33D; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:10:50 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <39937053.332963616@mail.sentex.net> References: <3990bd61.156080972@mail.sentex.net> <39937053.332963616@mail.sentex.net> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:39:04 +0200 To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa), fran@reyes.somos.net ("Francisco Reyes") From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:26 AM +0000 2000/8/11, Mike Tancsa wrote: > ------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- > Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU > 300 18638 97.0 36388 73.0 11448 26.0 13001 98.6 46468 45.3 341.9 4.0 > 300 17829 93.8 18565 32.7 8792 20.3 12535 95.4 22437 21.2 200.6 2.2 These numbers don't look particularly impressive to me -- look at how much CPU you're chewing up, and how little benefit there is. > First is RAID0, second is the same drive on the Intel PIIX4 ATA33 > controller by itself. In that case, these numbers do not look at all impressive. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 8: 2:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C1F37B764 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3F41115510; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:02:48 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Yahoo! Messenger Message-ID: <20000811080248.A98628@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20000811104446.17030.qmail@web106.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000811104446.17030.qmail@web106.yahoomail.com>; from thallgren@yahoo.com on Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:44:46AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (89% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 7:59AM up 9 days, 15:37, 2 users, load averages: 1.00, 1.19, 1.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Tommy Hallgren was heard blurting out: > Hi folks! > > I discovered today that there now is a Yahoo! Messenger client for FreeBSD and > Linux! Excellent! > > Read more at: > http://messenger.yahoo.com/messenger/download/unix.html > It is also in everybuddy. It can be found in the ports tree at /usr/ports/net/everybuddy and its home page is http://www.everybuddy.com TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Someday, you'll look back on this moment and plow into a parked car. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 9:47:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111F037BC47 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA09011; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , Mike Tancsa , "Nicole Harrington." Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? In-Reply-To: <200008110516.BAA10534@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: First let me say that I conceded the point in another message. I just want to address a couple of Fransico's points here. > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT), Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >If you are going to be spending money for multiple discs to create an > >array, you have decided that cost is reduced in importance compared to > >either performance or reliability or both. > > Not true. To most companies with real world budgets (i.e. not > startups with too much money and not a good CFO to handle them) > cost is ALWAYS an issue. The closer you are to the person > involved with creating the budget and managing it the more you > can see it. There are lots of decisions that take place that one > who doesn't deal with the budget people are not aware. I suppose cost is alway an issue. I was comparing the cost of a one time server purchase to even the cost of two employees which probably induce a fixed expenditure of 80,000 per year. Disc's look awful cheap comparatively. I have fought the cost battle myself and lost. Well, I actually lost double. Because the company loses, and then I have to fix the stuff that was broken too. Eventually, the company spends the money they would have spent anyway plus the cost of having to recoup what was messed up. > >You double or quadruple your disc cost in either case. > > You must be thinking of the case where one would replace ONE > SCSI drive for multiple IDE drives. That is not the case I am > presenting. I am presenting a case where one wants RAID either > way. IDE is way cheaper than SCSI. No. I was thinking the 4 SCSI [IDE] discs are 4 times the price of one SCSI [IDE] disc, hence the "in either case". We are talking about the same thing. > ANY SCSI raid controller STARTS on the $500+ range and EACH scsi > drive is more expensive than any IDE drive. But a simple adaptec card and vinum is 200 bucks. Greg's site (IIRC) pokes some wholes in the notion that a card is faster than software. IDE can't do RAID without the RAID adapter as I understand it. This was an unstated assumption of mine. > >marginally cheaper interface card but take a performance hit with IDE > >compared to SCSI. > > Have you tried them? Have you read their white papers? > I will be trying one next week and then I should know (I am > placing the order tomorrow). Nope. I was just thinking about the advertised peak bandwidth numbers. 33 verus 40, 66 versus 80 and so forth. For models that were contemporary, SCSI has always been faster. Not very scientific I admit. > >SCSI is much more flexible with the number of discs > >connected, > > There are different solutions to different problems. This > "flexibility" may NEVER be required. To be sure. Different problem require different solutions. > Anyone with many computers/servers will be able to tell you that > trying to do backup from each individual computer is a nightmare > so tape on each machine is useless. I agree. And if you are doing more than one computer you still probably need a SCSI tape. Not for the sake of SCSI itself, but for the sake of being able to get a good big fast tape drive. Even more so if you are not running a seperate backup network and have to backup hosts with 140GB of storage you provide as an example. > >(RAID is not substitute for backups, IMHO. > > It is not, but it helps to reduce downtime. To be sure. My point was to say that you need a tape drive in either the IDE or SCSI case. (The network backup issue aside) > >The cost of even a moderately pricey server ($4,000) is small change for > >any business with at least two employees who are not the propreitor's > >brothers-in-law. > > I take it you have never been on a company that was thinking of > layofs or had their budget cut significantly. At work my boss > had his budget cut almost 1/3. Wrong. I have. But you know what, cutting money in the areas that provide the support leads to lack of support. Sure, the demand against IT could be scaled down to match the budget constraints. Has anyone ever worked in an organization where IT demands _actually_ went down? IT seems to be the one place where bosses will say, "I am not spending that money." Yet they would never consider disconnecting the phone or opening the main circuit breaker for part of the day. This mindset utterly slays me. But we philosophize/rhetoricize/gripe at this point. > > One could get SCSI with RAID in a box for under $2,500 by > >my guesstimation that could handle any small LAN and its users. > > One could get IDE raid for under $1000. > > >I don't see much benefit in this. Maybe you save a couple hundred bucks or > >ten percent on your server with some detracting issues? > > On a big system you could save 3 to 4 times. > Let's see some prices on a RAID 10 system with 4 drives Yep, this is the point I conceded to that other fellow who laid it out for me. The real kicker is when drive capacities start going up, the price difference becomes more pronounced. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 10:48:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E9237B568 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45333; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:48:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from simoeon.sentex.net (simeon.sentex.ca [209.112.4.47]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA21870; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000811132733.00d951e0@marble.sentex.ca> X-Sender: mdtpop@marble.sentex.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:43:52 -0400 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" In-Reply-To: References: <200008110516.BAA10534@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:59 AM 8/11/00 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On a big system you could save 3 to 4 times. > > Let's see some prices on a RAID 10 system with 4 drives > >Yep, this is the point I conceded to that other fellow who laid it out for >me. The real kicker is when drive capacities start going up, the price >difference becomes more pronounced. I think we are all making valid points here, and I agree very much with what you have written in your post. Perhaps to clarify a general point I was trying to raise by example around the issue of cost. I work for an ISP where our IT costs are obviously quite significant in this very competitive marketspace. When I do my hardware budget, I generally cost it out by project/service area. For me USENET storage is pretty hard to justify as its viewed generally as a cost as opposed to a value add-- i.e. compared to web site storage space, and the most important one email, USENET is at the bottom of the list priority wise for our customers as a whole. So for my case, IDE RAID, (if the performance is acceptable) is a perfect fit. If the RAID0 stripe dies, half a day's news is gone. Big deal. I pop in a new cheap drive, and let the 'porn/warez/mpegz' start gushing in again.... But, compared to something as important as my mail spool, I'll stick to SCSI as I have found the drives to be that much more reliable, and worth the extra cost. So, in summary, think case by case basis as opposed to overall 'bye bye SCSI'. Need a big ass USENET spool, perhaps IDE RAID will do it for you. Need a massive tmp Amanda spooling area ? Perhaps IDE RAID as well.... High performance, high availability mail spool ? Perhaps not... yet. ---Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Sentex Communications mike@sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 14:56:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6875737B6B2 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:56:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA23210; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Mike Tancsa Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000811132733.00d951e0@marble.sentex.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Mike Tancsa wrote: > RAID0 stripe dies, half a day's news is gone. Big deal. I pop in a new > cheap drive, and let the 'porn/warez/mpegz' start gushing in again.... But, So that's why I can never get my fillz! :) Does anyone have part 645 of 1,000 of the "SuperCon Booth Babes" video? It is the only one I need and my 640 MB RAR is useless without it. PLZ Help! Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 17:14:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8C137BC4B for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00937; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:08:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAY2aaBb; Fri Aug 11 17:08:07 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05661; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:09:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008120009.RAA05661@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? To: nicole@unixgirl.com (Nicole Harrington.) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:09:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@sentex.net ((Mike Tancsa)), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, fran@reyes.somos.net (("Francisco Reyes")) In-Reply-To: from "Nicole Harrington." at Aug 09, 2000 02:30:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Why is it that there are no RAID 5 controlers for IDE? My gut reaction was to say: "The same reason there are no after-market turbo chargers for those little gas scooters that seem to be so popular lately." ...as a backhand reference to the fact that IDE dtill does not support concurrent outstanding I/O via tagged command queueing. But the fact is that there are IDE RAID controllers, even though I personally think that a server will have much more need of concurrency than a desktop. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 18: 3:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from samba.bjwcs.com (samba.bjwcs.com [192.148.252.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D470037B67C for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brently@bjwcs.com) Received: from rhumba (cx453106-a.elcjn1.sdca.home.com [24.21.8.120]) by samba.bjwcs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A28FD4287; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:03:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brent Wiese" To: "Nicole Harrington." , "Mike Tancsa" Cc: , "\"Francisco Reyes\"" Subject: RE: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:05:04 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org <> > > Why is it that there are no RAID 5 controlers for IDE? > > > Nicole > Adaptec just came out w/ a IDE RAID5 card. Haven't tested it yet... still on order. Brent To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 20: 6: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47F237B874 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14090; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:57:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008120257.WAA14090@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Nicole Harrington." , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "(Mike Tancsa)" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:06:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <200008120009.RAA05661@usr06.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:09:34 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: >...as a backhand reference to the fact that IDE dtill does not >support concurrent outstanding I/O via tagged command queueing. I could be wrong, but I though I read some reference to tagged queing on the 3ware site. >But the fact is that there are IDE RAID controllers, even though >I personally think that a server will have much more need of >concurrency than a desktop. The issue is that many times a server is only used by 5 to users at a time. In this case concurrency is not so much of an issue. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 11 20:30: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA74337B99A for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26423; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:29:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA11537; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:29:56 -0400 (EDT) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 03:24:06 GMT Message-ID: <3994c0d7.57418974@mail.sentex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Aug 2000 20:16:59 -0400, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: > >...as a backhand reference to the fact that IDE dtill does not >support concurrent outstanding I/O via tagged command queueing. I would love to test out something like the RAIDZone box... IDE drives presented on a SCSI interface. It *seems* to give the best of both worlds. ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 12 13:40:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC0537B58E for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-206.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.206]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7CKej324991 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:40:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA91265 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:40:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:40:45 -0500 From: Steve Price To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: where to look for work/job Message-ID: <20000812154045.B90230@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I'm doing a little research and trying to pull together a list of all online sites that a person can either find contract, part-time, or full-time work. The sites that come to mind first are ones like these: dice.com, elance.com, ework.com, freeagent.com, freelanceonline.com, guru.com, hireability.com, hotjobs.com, and monster.com. Can anyone think of any others? BTW, I remember seeing a site somewhere that had odd jobs like device driver development that people were bidding on but I can't seem to remember the name of it. Anyone? Thanks. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message