From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 3: 6:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E437B446; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id DAA70255; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:06:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Christopher Stein Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looking for roommate for BSDCon 2000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Christopher Stein wrote: > I will be attending BSDCon 2000 and am looking for someone to share a room > at the Hyatt with. I am a 27-year old male grad student. My estimated stay > period is 10/16 - 10/20. If you are also looking for a roommate please get > in touch. I'm also looking for a roommate and will be there for the same time period - Chris, did you find a taker yet? If yes, anyone else want to share? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 11:57:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BF337B423 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-134.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.134]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8HIvM719721 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:57:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by bonsai.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e8HIvM182873 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:57:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:57:18 -0500 From: Steve Price To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: list of exploits per OS Message-ID: <20000917135718.A31092@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I remember seeing somewhere on one of the FreeBSD lists a URL that totalled the exploits for a bunch of the popular OSs but I can't seem to find it in the archives. Anyone remember the URL? Thanks. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 12:59: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EFA37B42C for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA51065; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:58:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: list of exploits per OS References: <20000917135718.A31092@bonsai.hiwaay.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Sep 2000 21:58:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: Steve Price's message of "Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:57:18 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price writes: > I remember seeing somewhere on one of the FreeBSD lists a URL > that totalled the exploits for a bunch of the popular OSs but > I can't seem to find it in the archives. Anyone remember the > URL? Somewhere on securityfocus.com. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 14:37:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118D237B422 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA58967; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39C53990.A195F509@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:37:20 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-091 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'll be rolling a 4.1.1 release on September 25th References: <9290.969217479@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20000917151348.A66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Fumerola wrote: > This entire thread has us both agreeing on the fact that the existing > system doesn't work, and we both have little to offer in the way of > working systems short of chaining committers to workstations feeding them > bread and water and someone cracking a whip[1]. > 1. We do however have some committer expertise on this subject. Some non-committers too. In fact, I got some practice last night... *wicked grin* Doug -- "The dead cannot be seduced." - Kai, "Lexx" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 16: 3:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696BD37B422 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26246; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:35:41 -0400 Received: from Barricuda.Catonic.NET (barricuda [216.126.175.226]) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19033; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:02:39 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Barricuda.Catonic.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA32256; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:02:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@barricuda.catonic.net) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:02:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: list of exploits per OS In-Reply-To: <20000917135718.A31092@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Steve Price wrote: > I remember seeing somewhere on one of the FreeBSD lists a URL > that totalled the exploits for a bunch of the popular OSs but > I can't seem to find it in the archives. Anyone remember the > URL? Possibly ? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 18 16:14:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9BF37B424 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA25608; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:27:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Matt Bettinger Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: cool shell? In-Reply-To: <71F816A89AA9D3119F4C00D0B7094EFC198F6A@FIN_SYN> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Matt Bettinger wrote: > WTH? I'll tell you WTH! In recognition of my skillz during a long stint as a -question answerer, Jordan has granted me full authority to attract "peeps" with promises of not-shell accounts. Bow before me peeps! And beg for your shell! ::psyche:: No really, here is your shell... FreeBSD/i386 (server.highperformance.net) (ttyp0) login: luser password: ***** FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE (SERVER) #2: Thu Sep 14 16:13:35 PDT 2000 Welcome to NOT YOUR FreeBSD! Before seeking technical support pay homage to the not-shell overlord! ^D Muahahahaha! Thank you, Jason C. Wells P.S. Moved to chat. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 18 16:14:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4208E37B505 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEF11D140; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:14:47 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <39C6A1E7.D342AD1B@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:14:47 +0100 From: Paul Richards X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: Tony Finch , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: netcraft 'serve-ey' References: <20000913200807.E97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000913233337.S6767@hand.dotat.at> <20000914162946.B9335@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:33:37PM +0000, Tony Finch wrote: > | j mckitrick wrote: > | > > | >Does anyone know if the netcraft survey is accurate? I recently read > | >a comment that alleged it was not, and that (surprise) NT and Solaris > | >were the dominant server OSs. > | > | It is accurate in terms of what it measures, but what it measures is > | not necessarily what people think it measures. I.e. it counts virtual > | hosts and it's trivial to put thousands of virtual hosts on a shitty > | 486. Netcraft have other surveys which you must pay for which include > | numbers that are more difficult to obtain, like the number of physical > | machines with a given web server or OS, but even then its hard to tell > | the difference between an E10000 and a Sparc 1. > > So who can we believe when Netcraft says Unix/Apache dominates, while > entmag.com claims NT is the winner? I'm beginning to think they are all > lying, and all those fortune 500 companies are running boa as their > webservers. :) Are you talking about this article? http://www.entmag.com/displayarticle.asp?searchresult=1&ID=6150095626AM In this article they admit the truth about the survey results but then use the survey tools to test Fortune 500 companies, which tend to use NT. The claims that these results "turn the figures on their head" is to play fast and loose in the fastest and loosest way with the statistics. The survey is accurate within the parameters that previous people have said and there are fairly comprehensive explanations on the Netcraft web site as to how much weight should be given to the results (which is quite a lot but don't take individual probes as gospel). Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd (ex Netcraft) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 18 23:10:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DB637B422; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10083; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:10:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAASAaOPt; Mon Sep 18 23:10:37 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13633; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:10:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009190610.XAA13633@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Holidays and other perks of the job [Was: Question about voting] To: marko@FreeBSD.ORG (Mark Ovens) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:10:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bmah@FreeBSD.ORG (Bruce A. Mah), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000913202222.F264@parish> from "Mark Ovens" at Sep 13, 2000 08:22:23 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > No wonder that when we set up a subsidiary in the US the people who > > > moved out there wanted UK style employment terms (holiday/sick pay and > > > company cars). > > > > Company cars?!? > > Oh yeah, it's something that is pretty much unique to the UK. Even > (relatively) lowly positions on the company ladder get a car as part > of their remuneration package. IBM is offering leases for new employees in the Foster City location, FWIW; I can;t remember if it's 2 years or 3 years, but it's up to $500/month , and anything that isn't spent on car can be spent on gas. Send email to "evan@whistle.com" or "dhw@whistle.com" for details, and tell them I expect to get a cut of the referral bonus. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 0:41:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxim.gba.oz.au (gba.tmx.com.au [203.9.155.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F05E37B42C for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14942 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Sep 2000 17:40:19 +1000 X-Posted-By: GBA-Post 2.06 15-Sep-2000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5A91 6942 8CEA 9DAB B95B C249 1CE1 493B 2B5A CE30 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:40:19 +1000 From: Greg Black To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Why not use partition d? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently saw a statement on -hackers which asserted that one should not use partition d on FreeBSD disks "for historical reasons". The person who made the claim does not remember those historical reasons. Does anybody here know if the advice is factual and, if so, why? Please Cc me as I'm not a subscriber to -chat at the moment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 1:57:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7599A37B424 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15961; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:55:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Black Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why not use partition d? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Sep 2000 10:55:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Black's message of "Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:40:19 +1000" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Black writes: > I recently saw a statement on -hackers which asserted that one > should not use partition d on FreeBSD disks "for historical > reasons". There is no longer any reason for that, unless you plan to mount the disk on a very old BSD system. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 4:18:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.kc.rr.com (fe4.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.163.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0CE37B422 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 04:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dana ([24.94.168.108]) by mail4.kc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:18:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01c701c0222b$6681e1e0$6ca85e18@kc.rr.com> From: "Dana" To: "FreeBSD Chat List" References: Subject: Help with installing XFree86 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:18:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I installed XFree86 and did not install the correct server. So I deinstalled and reinstalled but it just reinstalls the same servers. I need it to go back to the beginning and let me select the servers to install again. Any suggestions? Dana To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 4:23:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E1037B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 04:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20290; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:23:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Dana" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat List" Subject: Re: Help with installing XFree86 References: <01c701c0222b$6681e1e0$6ca85e18@kc.rr.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Sep 2000 13:23:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Dana"'s message of "Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:18:56 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dana" writes: > I installed XFree86 and did not install the correct server. > So I deinstalled and reinstalled but it just reinstalls the > same servers. I need it to go back to the beginning and > let me select the servers to install again. Any suggestions? If you're talking about the x11/XFree86 port, make clean and start over; and next time, send your questions to questions@freebsd.org. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 4:36: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.kc.rr.com (fe3.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.163.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AF837B422 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 04:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dana ([24.94.168.108]) by mail3.kc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:36:02 -0500 Message-ID: <005401c0222d$dd1cd1a0$6ca85e18@kc.rr.com> From: "Dana" To: "FreeBSD Chat List" References: <01c701c0222b$6681e1e0$6ca85e18@kc.rr.com> Subject: Re: Help with installing XFree86 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:36:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav To: Dana Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 6:23 AM Subject: Re: Help with installing XFree86 > If you're talking about the x11/XFree86 port, make clean and start > over Thank you that did it. > and next time, send your questions to questions@freebsd.org. Will do that also. I think I'll go find a bsd newbie list also. Dana To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 8: 2: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610D237B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13bOuE-000KCV-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:01:58 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA70843 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:01:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:01:58 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: new license idea? Message-ID: <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What about a license where all changes must be returned to the original author, but do not have to be made public? This way, the author will not be locked out of improvements to his/her code, and yet it will be at their discretion if they include them in their own code or not. At the same time, those changes would not *have* to be made public. This probably has major holes, but after reading yet-another-license-flame-war, it got me thinking. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 9:21:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3737C37B423; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA88488; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new license idea? In-Reply-To: <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > What about a license where all changes must be returned to the > original author, but do not have to be made public? This way, the > author will not be locked out of improvements to his/her code, and yet > it will be at their discretion if they include them in their own code > or not. At the same time, those changes would not *have* to be made > public. > > This probably has major holes, but after reading > yet-another-license-flame-war, it got me thinking. The solution to yet-another-license-flamewar is yet-another-license? :-) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 9:41: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D990B37B422; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13bQS0-000LxY-00; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:40:56 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA71750; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:40:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:40:55 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new license idea? Message-ID: <20000919174055.A71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@freebsd.org on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:21:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:21:48AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: | The solution to yet-another-license-flamewar is yet-another-license? :-) Sure. There *has* to be some middle ground we can fight over. :-) jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 9:47:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8DB37B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00757; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:46:13 -0600 To: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new license idea? In-Reply-To: <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IMHO, It's confiscatory whether the changes have to be revealed or not. The improvements belong to the person who made them, and if he or she is willing to release them, that's great. But he or she should not be forced to. --Brett At 09:01 AM 9/19/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >What about a license where all changes must be returned to the original >author, but do not have to be made public? This way, the author will not be >locked out of improvements to his/her code, and yet it will be at their >discretion if they include them in their own code or not. At the same time, >those changes would not *have* to be made public. > >This probably has major holes, but after reading >yet-another-license-flame-war, it got me thinking. > >jcm >-- >"I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 9:54: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57A937B422 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13bQei-000M9X-00; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA71857; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:54:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:54:03 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new license idea? Message-ID: <20000919175403.B71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:46:13AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:46:13AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: | IMHO, It's confiscatory whether the changes have to be revealed or not. | The improvements belong to the person who made them, and if he or she | is willing to release them, that's great. But he or she should not | be forced to. What about the fragmentation issue? Someone takes my code, reuses it, keeps the changes, and has created a new, incompatible version? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 11:11:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD9437B440 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19409; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:11:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAtKayPL; Tue Sep 19 11:10:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06018; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:10:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009191810.LAA06018@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Learn from History, please (was Re: new license idea?) To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:10:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000919175403.B71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Sep 19, 2000 05:54:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | IMHO, It's confiscatory whether the changes have to be revealed or not. > | The improvements belong to the person who made them, and if he or she > | is willing to release them, that's great. But he or she should not > | be forced to. > > What about the fragmentation issue? > Someone takes my code, reuses it, keeps the changes, and has created a new, > incompatible version? Which they ten have to maintain for all eternity, thereafter? The biggest force toward fragmentation is the tools used to maintain the source tree. First, I will start with a not so brief history lesson, about the early days of 386BSD and FreeBSD and NetBSD; this is a story which is often not told, since many people disagree on the order of events, despite the fact that there is a usenet archive of the time (1992/1993) up for public perusal. In the 386BSD days, I created the "patchkit", after creating the initial FAQ, which included some patches, but very quickly was too unweildy to use for additional patches beyond my first patch for the VM system, and one or two after that. The patchkit was hand-appied patches off of usenet; but I hand applied them in order, and encoded the dependency relationship between the patches in a metadata file. This ensured that they could not be applied "out of order" when any two patches touched the same file. This guaranteed consistant results, but it turned me (and then later Rod Grimes, Nate Williams, and, finally, Jordan Hubbard) into "human CVS repositories": there was a single, monotonically increasing patch number, which had to be centrally controlled by some human owning a token; this turned out to be the shell script that created the patches. --- After a hundred or so patches, a single human who was working full time became a gating factor on the rate at which patches could be normalized into the system. To combat this, several people got together and, not understanding that the purpose of the metadata file was to allow topological ordering of the patch graph (much in the same way as "make" or "tsort" operate), they reverse-engineered the "patchkit" patch format. After this feat (it wasn't difficult, it was self-documenting, but it was still a barrier to entry), they started releasing their own patches, starting at a very high number (1000, if I recollect correctly, without going to my tape dive or my 386BSD 0.1+patchkit system), assuming that this would preclude any conflicts. This, of course, was wrong. The first time they touched a file that was touched by an "official unofficial patchkit patch" after their patch had been released, both patches became at risk (which failed depended on which one was applied last -- the last one would fail from conflicts during the patching process. --- This caused things to go to hell rather quickly, and tempers flared on both sides; the "official unofficial" side, and the "unofficial unofficial" side. At some point, the "unofficial unofficial" side majority decided to go off on their own, with a real repository. This was later released as NetBSD. --- Meanwhile, Bill Jolitz had sanctioned a "386BSD 0.5" interim release, which was to be derived from the patchkit code. But Bill was consulting, and couldn't keep up with the interim release code changes, any more than the "patchkit" human holding the token could keep up with the level of contributions that led to the reverse-engineering of the patchkit patch file format. It all came to a head when several negative events conspired in the Jolitz family's life to push stresses beyond the breaking point, and some words were exchanged on usenet; then some more, and some more, and then, finally, Bill rescinded his permission to call the work "386BSD 0.5". Rather than throw all this work away, the patchkit people decided to release under a different name. In deference to Bill, this was to be "FreeBSD 0.1" -- _NOT_ exceeding Bill's version number. But one of the players who had funded resources for this effort was Walnut Creek CDROM; they felt that, without the 386BSD name, they could not sell a 0.x product, and suggested a movement of the decimal place was in order. Thus 386BSD+patchkit+other_work was released as FreeBSD 1.0. --- OpenBSD came about later; due to many of the same pressures; this time, it was the inability of the CVS tool to support multiple lines of development, and the conflict was within the NetBSD group. Despite the incredible rancor during the events leading to OpenBSD, including a "CVS commit priviledges" version of "core wars", there remains the kernel of the problem, which was the tools used, and their constraint of what at least one of the parties ability to move the code forward "fast enough". And so ends our history lesson. Commercial organizations are different from volunteer organizations; they have something to account to, whether investors or stockholders, which is larger than themselves, and larger than their egos. Make no mistakes; many people involved in open source are involved for ego. Whether driven by ego, as many are, or by a fear of one's own limited life span, as others of us are, or by a burning need to advance the state of the art as far as possible, as still others of us are, or just intellectual curiosity -- another kind of burning need, for some -- as a few of us are, cooperation in the open source community generally results in leverage, which pays the participant in their preferred coin(s). A commercial organization is different. A commercial organization is driven by economic factors; until recently, this was an alien and unknown force in open source. For many open source projects, it remains so. But the point is that _successful_ commercial organizations have learned to be driven by economics, and that one of the realities of economics is the distinction between "tactical" and "strategic". A tactical victory may win you the battle, but lose you the war; a strategic victory brings you one step closer to winning the war. What this boils down to, as far as open source is concerned, is that: 1) Enlightened companies will give tactical code back to an open source project; it is strategic for them to do so. 2) Unenlightened companies will fail to give back tactical code to an open source project; they will suffer an increasing maintenance burden, and will eventually be marginalized by time, if they have no competitors, or buried under their strategic blunders, if they have an enlightened company for a competitor. This is purely an emergent property of economic self-interest; it is part of the rules by which companies interact in a capitalist society, or even a partially capitalist society, to a lesser extent; yet the forces are there, even then. As a hypothetical situation, consider the following: Company A sells firewalls. They come up with a method of adding firewall code to an open source OS. Company B sells firewalls. They come up with a method of adding firewall code to an open source OS. This metho is different than that of company A, but touches many of the same files. All things being the same, the implementation details are not rellevent; the actual implementation was strategic when only one company had the capability: it was a barrier to entry. Not the smartest thing to do, to rest on your laurels and hide behind such a barrier while your competition forges ahead -- but many companies use this technique, at least until their competition eats their lunch (one is reminded of the barriers erected in the UNIX market by way of application base, as vendors squabbled between themselves for a diminishing fraction of the overall and increasingly large market, instead of adopting a single ABI and keeping it simple and elegant). But as soon as more than one company exists in a space, the barrier loses strategic value and becomes tactical. Company B realizes this. Company B releases their now-tactical code to the open source OS, which adopts the code. Time passes. The open source OS matures. Security bugs are found and fixed. Company A finds itself with a conflicting set of patches against an outdated OS. Outcome 1: Company B eats company A's lunch, as company A fails to keep up with their ongoing maintenance burden, and becomes marginalized. Outcome 2: Company B eats comapny A's lunch, as company A switches to the now-standard company B interface, and has to "play catch up" in order to ensure that features upon which their existing customer base relies are integrated into the company B interface. The V.P. of engineering prays every night that there isn't anything intrinsically impossible to cram into the company B interface. Outcome 3: Company B eats comapny A's lunch, as company A decides to seperately maintain "ProprietOS", as a "fork". Much money and R&D effort is spent in maintaining parity with what the open source OS developers are providing for company B for free. Outcome 4: A diety or monopolistic power intervenes and saves company A's bacon; it crushes company B using a non-technical strategic approach. If company A were truly clever, it might have realized that company B was developing similar technology, and let them blow their money on getting 85%-90% done, THEN released their code to the open source OS people. That would be truly strategic thinking, even if a bit "uncricket"... Do we see parallels in this parable which should be taken to heart by the fragmented BSD community (or the even more fragmented Linux community, which is busy replaying the UNIX wars of the 80's)? I think we do. But even more, we see why commercial companies would give source code back to the community, when the code is tactical, or when it's strategic to do so. So the claims of fragmentation risk are really exagerated; they are, in fact, FUD. One does not need a license to protect one from a fragmentation or a code hijack, unless the code is strategic, in which case, one is better off not revealing it at all, since it is easy to read with one hand and type with the other; not only easy, but the economic pressures in Silicon Valley have raised it to a fine art, to the point of having its own name: "clean rooming". Just my opinion, for what it's worth. PS: Had I known the emergent properties of tools would have such a powerful effect, I would have done the patchkit much more differently; I believe that there might be only one open source BSD today, had I done so. But if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 11:48:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA97C37B422 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01905; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:46:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919124101.05089eb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:46:46 -0600 To: j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new license idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000919175403.B71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:54 AM 9/19/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >What about the fragmentation issue? >Someone takes my code, reuses it, keeps the changes, and has created a new, >incompatible version? Fragmentation can and does occur regardless of licensing. XEmacs is a good example. However, fragmentation/forking does not mean that standards will not be followed or that compatibility will not be maintained. At the February LinuxWorld, Linus Torvalds said that he actually thought that a bit of fragmentation -- in the form of specialization -- would be good for Linux. Ironically, this is exactly what has happened with the BSDs, and we now have five and a half very good OSes. (I count PicoBSD as a half, because it is small and derived from the FreeBSD source tree.) Fragmentation/forking can be as much a sign of creativity and progress as a problem. It is only problematic when it is used by a large company (e.g. Microsoft) as a bludgeon. Or when it breaks compatibility and there's not appropriate backward compatibility. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 11:50:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD3237B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13bSTK-000APT-00; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:50:26 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA73070; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:50:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:50:26 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Learn from History, please (was Re: new license idea?) Message-ID: <20000919195026.A72836@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000919175403.B71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200009191810.LAA06018@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200009191810.LAA06018@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 06:10:36PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That was really a fascinating story. I love the 'untold' history even more than the documented stuff! Now we have, as Paul Harvey would say, 'the rest of the story.' A few questions (you knew they were coming ;-) 1. If a company has no real competitors for a product, how can they be marginalized? Suppose a BSD licensed digital paint program appeared, and a company used the code and extended it to a proprietary version especially suited to photograph processing. Suppose they kept the changes to the code, and no competitors appeared. How would they become marginalized? Simply because of the maintenance pressures of continuing to merge current changes from the open source branch with their own? 2. Using the illustration of the two firewall companies, how could Company B remain profitable after opening its source? Does the concept of strategic victory include getting your foot in the door (or your code in the tree) at the expense of short-term profits? 3. Do any of these arguments apply differently to separate apps than to operating systems? 4. I am a bit unclear on this paragraph: | So the claims of fragmentation risk are really exagerated; they are, | in fact, FUD. One does not need a license to protect one from a | fragmentation or a code hijack, unless the code is strategic, in | which case, one is better off not revealing it at all, since it is | easy to read with one hand and type with the other; not only easy, | but the economic pressures in Silicon Valley have raised it to a | fine art, to the point of having its own name: "clean rooming". Do you mean that a really good 'secret' or innovation is best protected by not releasing it at all, at least for a time? Or is there an additional meaning? And what is "clean rooming"? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 11:52:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397CE37B424 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13bSVX-000Nm0-00; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:52:43 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA73093; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:52:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:52:43 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new license idea? Message-ID: <20000919195242.B72836@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> <20000919175403.B71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919124101.05089eb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919124101.05089eb0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 12:46:46PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Fragmentation/forking can be as much a sign of creativity and progress as | a problem. It is only problematic when it is used by a large company | (e.g. Microsoft) as a bludgeon. Or when it breaks compatibility and | there's not appropriate backward compatibility. I understand that there are 2 forks in windows development, but how are they used to bludgeon, since they are targeted at 2 different audiences? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 12:12:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7CD37B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02153; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919130855.00d548a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:11:16 -0600 To: j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new license idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000919195242.B72836@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919124101.05089eb0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> <20000919160157.A70731@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919104443.00bf44b0@localhost> <20000919175403.B71735@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919124101.05089eb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:52 PM 9/19/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >I understand that there are 2 forks in windows development, but how are they >used to bludgeon, since they are targeted at 2 different audiences? Microsoft attempts to create proprietary forks of STANDARDS, not programs. (Oh, and by "proprietary," I mean in the way it's PROPERLY defined, not in the way Stallman attempts to redefine it). The messes they created with CHAP and Kerberos are examples. What they did was not innovative and not backward-compatible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 12:43:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lafontaine.cybercable.fr (lafontaine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 33E0B37B42C for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16146938 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2000 19:42:25 -0000 Received: from r227m167.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.227.167]) (envelope-sender ) by lafontaine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Sep 2000 19:42:25 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8JJgMc03338; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:42:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre Message-Id: <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? In-Reply-To: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> "from Akbar at Sep 19, 2000 12:29:35 pm" To: Akbar Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:42:20 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: clefevre@citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Akbar wrote: [snip] > wat is so special about BSD? wat is the major difference between BSD and > Linux?? if its so robust then why is linux so hyped? i am a bit confused. i BSD vs GNU/Linux central development (non central development dor linux boxes) ports system (aka rpm for linux boxes) from my point of view, much more unix philosophy compliant public domain (/usr/local) != userland (/) where linux boxes merges both and many more reasons... > am seeking out a career in security area and i am seriously thinking of > learning 1 unix based OS. and i am stuck. which one would be best to learn?? for security purpose, OpenBSD is well suitable. > linux or BSD?? and how far the knowledge of each OS would allow me to shift > to other OS? i mean, if i learn BSD would be easy for me to program in > Linux? or vice versa?? you'll probably get better habits w/ BSD than w/ GNU/Linux. much better is to follow standards and not to use all those non-standard libraries whatever they are easy to use. so, your programs would runs on many unix flavors. > p.s. if i start to learn BSD which version or distribution is best suited? for x86, FreeBSD 4.1 would be apropriate and have a bigger audience than others BSD (OpenBSD and NetBSD). > (i have programming experience of C, C++ and java and i have worked on Unix > some 3 yrs back) sounds good :) much better is to follow this thread in freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org or freebsd-chat@freebsd.org. CC: positionned. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 15:27:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B743E37B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01896; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:24:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAH.ayId; Tue Sep 19 15:24:37 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14621; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:27:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009192227.PAA14621@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Learn from History, please (was Re: new license idea?) To: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:27:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000919195026.A72836@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Sep 19, 2000 07:50:26 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A few questions (you knew they were coming ;-) > > 1. If a company has no real competitors for a product, how can they be > marginalized? Suppose a BSD licensed digital paint program > appeared, and a company used the code and extended it to a proprietary version > especially suited to photograph processing. Suppose they kept the changes to > the code, and no competitors appeared. How would they become marginalized? > Simply because of the maintenance pressures of continuing to merge current > changes from the open source branch with their own? By virtue of people who want the features of the proprietary product deciding to add them to the open source version, one at a time, rather than paying for it. Consider that other people will be adding other code to the open source version, which people may demand in the proprietary version as well -- and not understand why the features are slow in coming. From another tack, we might consider that someone who needs an image processing program might not need the full capabilities of the commercial version, but have bought it for support or other reasons (yes, I have been known to buy software). For example, I know someone who recently bought "Stronghold"; the reasons for the capital outlay for it were (1) making Apache work with OpenSSL and RSAREF was not worth the time it would cost to learn about it, and (2) to get a certificate. It's pretty obvious that a certificate could have been had at a fraction of the cost, without the server cost included. Going back to our image processing software user, we look at features coming out in the open source version that are enticing to the user, who does some photographic processing, but uses the program more than half the time just as generic image processing software (the same way I use the copy of Adobe Photodeluxe 4.0 Home Edition that came with my Sony laptop). As time goes on, the vendor will find themselves with only their core of power users who don't need to do things outside the boundaries of the limitations inherent in the product; or in other words, they will find themselves marginalized into a niche market that will, if they are not careful to follow the open source developements, turn into a legacy market. > 2. Using the illustration of the two firewall companies, how > could Company B remain profitable after opening its source? This is a two-parter, so I will answer in two parts. The trite answer to the first part is "By not opening _all_ of its source". This really means letting go of the tactical in order to concentrate on the strategic; this is hopefully (from the point of view of the V.C. funding or the shareholders) a core competency that they bring to the table. An example from recent BSD history is Soft Updates. Whistle paid Kirk (and Julian and, much less, me) for the time to develope the code for FreeBSD, in order to get around the need for a UPS in the InterJet. Kirk was bound to keep the code from being commercially utilized by direct competitors for the time that Whistle thought it would take to recoup R&D costs. After that, the code quit being strategic, and became tactical. We could add in a marketing dimension as well: if a competitor started using the code after it became tactical, then we could point to our lead on the technically as a marketing strategy. So in that sense, releasing the tactical code could actually have more strategic value, whereas keeping it under wraps would have zero additional strategic value. > Does the concept of strategic victory include getting your > foot in the door (or your code in the tree) at the expense of > short-term profits? This is a hard one to answer. On the one hand, you have all of these "Internet Companies" or "dot coms" who are burning huge amounts of cash to acquire customers, and damn the consequences. One of the consequences for most of them is a separate "burn rate" from the normally considered one of cash: I call it "customer burn rate". What it amounts to is whether you in fact achieve anything lasting in terms of a customer relationship. For most of the "dot coms" that are failing in recent history, I think the answer is "no". So if "getting your foot in the door" is your goal, then you are probably doomed, no matter what your approach. I really like to use a different analogy: "getting the camel's nose into the tent". The point is to try to _maintain_ the relationship, long term, in a sustainable way. I think that long term, "portal plays" are pretty much doomed. Look at Yahoo jilting Inktomi for their new search engine technology: things in the Internet space are fickle. There is really no such ting as traditional "brand loyalty" or "frequency marketing", although some people are trying real hard to find ways to address this. The best bet so far seems to be the "sticky application"; the theory is that you get a webmail or other application account, and then you come back. But when you come back, you are returning for the freebie, so it's still a game of selling your eyeballs to advertisers. I think that most ASPs are going to flounder and crash, if they attempt a different model that doesn't take what;s out there for free into account, and deal with it somehow. So after all that, "yes, if you can get the camel's nose in the tent, it is worth the short term profit to ensure the ongoing long term revenue stream". But doing that is a trick with a hole in it -- that is, it is not something that you can put into a formula, turn a crank, and have a succeful Internet based business (or even a successful "brick and morter" based business) pop out, like Athena from Zeus' head. > 3. Do any of these arguments apply differently to separate > apps than to operating systems? Less so. I recently spent several months integrating 30 or so open source packages into a single entity. I ended up with about 3.1 million lines of code that would compile on FreeBSD or AIX with the same set of Makefiles, and could target a distribution/installation directory seperate from where these things normally wanted to install (and clobber system parts, each other, and, in general, make a mess of trying to install security patches that applied to the components being replaced, etc.). I'm very good at this type of work, if I do say so myself, as I am very detail orients: everything must function exactly right, or I'm not happy with it. Most kernel hackers of any ability would probably be damn good at it too, if they could find the patience. That said, I did a smaller, but similar, project in less time (2 months) and with a team of myself and several part-time people who mostly worked on other tasks. It was only about 1.8 million lines of code. IBM Global Services (IGS) were willing to so the same work, but with two architects, a team of almost a dozen total people, and estimated 8 months. As I said, I'm good at this type of work, even if it is mostly sanding and glueing. The point to this is not self aggrandizement, but pointing out the flaw in approaching applications the same way. Geoffrey Moore (of Regis McKenna fame) likes to proselytize about "whole product" strategies. If you were selling an application based on open source, there is a huge amount of work you would need to engage in before you had a whole product (or, as in the case of my code, a whole service). > 4. I am a bit unclear on this paragraph: > > | So the claims of fragmentation risk are really exagerated; they are, > | in fact, FUD. One does not need a license to protect one from a > | fragmentation or a code hijack, unless the code is strategic, in > | which case, one is better off not revealing it at all, since it is > | easy to read with one hand and type with the other; not only easy, > | but the economic pressures in Silicon Valley have raised it to a > | fine art, to the point of having its own name: "clean rooming". > > Do you mean that a really good 'secret' or innovation is best > protected by not releasing it at all, at least for a time? Yes. This is why I think the best method of "promoting progress in the arts and sciences", at least as regards computer science, is to get rid of patent and copyright protection on software, and replace it with a much shorter duration protection, similar to patents, but requiring source escrow, and precluding litigation following the escrow period (after which it would become public domain). I wouldn't make it last over 7 years, under any circumstances, and would prefer 2 years as a default, unless the applicant could show a longer R&D period (after which, it would be limited to the documented R&D period or 7 years, whichever is less). > Or is there an additional meaning? No. > And what is "clean rooming"? 1) Bob tests the code to determine its behaviour 2) Bob documents the behaviour (entry points, etc.) 3) Bob is paid, and never hear from again 4) Tom takes a test to ensure he has never seen the code or worked with it (this is called a "virginity test") 5) Tom build code that does the same thing, using Bob's documentation 6) The code is released, and competes with the original code that Bob documented This is how Compaq was able to claim 100% compatability, after "clean rooming" the IBM PC BIOS for their clone machines; as an example, Compaq considered this code strategic, because of the high barrier to entry for competitors, and their ability to undercut IBM's prices. Then companies like Phoenix got into the business, and now a BIOS is a commodity (tactical: you buy it from the lowest bidder who can meet your software requirements). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 16:27:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca [207.23.161.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C0437B422 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DarkSide ([207.23.161.75]) by enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24199 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:26:58 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:26:51 -0700 Subject: Nice quote on "GPL bad, MS worse, BSD good" issue Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <39C793CB.9840.14A5796B@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Below has got to be the simplest, easiest-to-understand, and most realistic view I have seen yet on the whole "GPL bad, MS worse" issue. Why can't people on this list (with a few exceptions) be this succint?? :-) Certainly made things a little clearer in my mind -- although I don't quite agree with everything below. [taken from: http://linux.com/development/newsitem.phtml?sid=63&aid=10545 ] Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com > GPL monopoly and M$ monopoly - 2000-09-19 06:31:27 > The fact is, both the GPL and Microsoft have strong monopolies. The only > difference is M$ makes more money and has inferior products. > > With M$, you get all these apps with your system. They aren't really > free and they aren't that good, but most people don't bother > investigating alternatives. The hard-working programmer who wrote a > better app than the one that comes with Windows will likely starve. The > net effect is that innovation is squashed. > > With the GPL, there are 'free' versions of just about anything you > want. And most are of higher quality than M$ offers. However, the > people who write them probably do not depend on software sales to put > food on the table. Again, a hard-working programmer who has found a > better way to do something will have a very difficult time selling his > or her software, because people will usually choose the path of least > resistance, or the free software as long as it is 'good enough'. Net > resust: less innovation. > > Now, let's look where that leaves us: People using software that is > 'good enough', and that is easy to get (GPL) or shoved down their > throats (M$), thus leaving very little reason for innovation, because > the innovator has no incentive to do so, unless they ALSO want to give > their software away for free. > > Both lead to monopolies and squash innovation > Anonymous To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 21:17: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2539437B424; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0AF831C6B; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:16:52 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: clefevre@citeweb.net Cc: Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org>; from root@gits.dyndns.org on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:42:20PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:42:20PM +0200, Cyrille Lefevre wrote: > > am seeking out a career in security area and i am seriously thinking of > > learning 1 unix based OS. and i am stuck. which one would be best to learn?? > > for security purpose, OpenBSD is well suitable. just curious: Do you say this just because everyone says "well, FreeBSD is stable/performance, OpenBSD is security oriented, NetBSD is portable", because OpenBSD markets themselves towards security, or based on an independent thought? Every BSD has its strong point, but I wish people would elaborate more then *grunt*grunt* OpenBSD for security *grunt*grunt* -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 21:28:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hecky.it.northwestern.edu (hecky.acns.nwu.edu [129.105.16.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A0037B422; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by hecky.it.northwestern.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21822; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:28:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from confusion.net (dhcp089155.res-hall.nwu.edu [199.74.89.155]) by hecky.acns.nwu.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma021686; Tue, 19 Sep 00 23:28:11 -0500 Message-ID: <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:27:50 -0500 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think people tend to assume that because they are very forward about the fact that they ship strong crypto, and that they have done the big code audit, that they are more secure. People tend not to realize that (AFAIK) we also ship strong crypto stuff (I remember something, search the -security archives a while back, I haven't actually installed from CD in a while). In terms of clean code, I think that FreeBSDs strength over a certain other open-source OS tends to do with the quality of code. A lot more peer review goes on here, and that's part of why I aspire to write code for FreeBSD some day (sooner or later, I promise, but I really should actually pay attention to my classes freshman year). I don't think I can write code of that quality yet, but I think if someone starts publishing patches to PRs, adding features, etc., there's perhaps a bit more review than goes into other OSs, especially given the (IMHO superior) way FreeBSDs userland is done compared to Linux. I don't think OpenBSD has much over FreeBSD in terms of quality of code, but the perception sort of persists because they are always pushing themselves as security. Am I crazy? Laurence Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:42:20PM +0200, Cyrille Lefevre wrote: > > > > am seeking out a career in security area and i am seriously thinking of > > > learning 1 unix based OS. and i am stuck. which one would be best to learn?? > > > > for security purpose, OpenBSD is well suitable. > > just curious: > > Do you say this just because everyone says "well, FreeBSD is stable/performance, > OpenBSD is security oriented, NetBSD is portable", because OpenBSD markets themselves > towards security, or based on an independent thought? > > Every BSD has its strong point, but I wish people would elaborate more then > > *grunt*grunt* OpenBSD for security *grunt*grunt* > > > > -- > Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. > billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland Intern, Flooz.com Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 22:13:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0269A37B422; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:11:47 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8K5Che17776; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:42 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Laurence Berland Cc: Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net>; from stuyman@confusion.net on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:27:50PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:27:50PM -0500, Laurence Berland wrote: > I think people tend to assume that because... [snip] > they have done the big code audit, that they are more secure. [snip] > I don't think OpenBSD has much over FreeBSD in terms of quality > of code, but the perception sort of persists because they are always > pushing themselves as security. > > Am I crazy? No, you are not. You partially answered your own question. OpenBSD is considered more secure because, (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) (b) They ship a secure default. Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the box." I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the more secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when properly configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to make the claims they do. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 22:19: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BAA37B424; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DAE651C6B; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:18:59 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Laurence Berland , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700, Crist J . Clark wrote: > I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the more > secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when properly > configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to make the claims > they do. I never questioned the right to make the claims (they've earned it), but I just wondered if people just read what everyone else says about each BSD and accepts as the gospel truth or actually uses this old crusty tool called research. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 1: 0:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC92F37B422; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25611; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:00:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Sep 2000 10:00:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J . Clark"'s message of "Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:42 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J . Clark" writes: > No, you are not. You partially answered your own question. OpenBSD is > considered more secure because, > > (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) > (b) They ship a secure default. > > Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done > (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the > box." FreeBSD has done a lot more of (a) than you might think, and guess what, Our People found some holes Their People hadn't spotted. So a code audit is better than no code audit, but it's not a silver bullet. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 1:10:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C9D37B423; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8K89q699019; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message from "Crist J . Clark" of "Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:42 PDT." <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) > (b) They ship a secure default. > > Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done > (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the > box." I'd appreciate more specifics. I think (a) is largely a perceptual advantage since software never stands still and I have to wonder just how much of a "rolling audit" any project of a largely voluntary nature can consistently manage. As for (b), I think FreeBSD has already made some very sensible decisions there and would very much appreciate knowing just where you think it's failed to do so, using -current as a baseline if possible since there's not much point in arguing about default security policies which have already been changed. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 4:29: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE9737B422; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 04:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA810694; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:28:54 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:28:57 -0400 To: Bill Fumerola , cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:18 AM -0400 9/20/00, Bill Fumerola wrote: >On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the > > more secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when > > properly configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to > > make the claims they do. > >I never questioned the right to make the claims (they've earned >it), but I just wondered if people just read what everyone else >says about each BSD and accepts as the gospel truth or actually >uses this old crusty tool called research. Based on my quick overview of both, OpenBSD does seem better for some things, and I'd loosely define those things as "security". FreeBSD has only been serious about security audits for a short time, and for part of that auditing, the first step is usually "Let's see what OpenBSD has done in this component". That happens much more than "Let's see what Microsoft has done in this area for security", or "Let's see what Linux has done for security". If WE are using OpenBSD as a reference for code-auditing, it seems silly to get our backs up in the air when someone else references OpenBSD as "most secure". Furthermore, OpenBSD does decide to "button down" it's default configuration more than FreeBSD does. That is it's choice, and for some people that choice is reassuring. One of the guys on the staff here wanted to use "some decent unix" for doing DHCP & DNS, and for his purposes OpenBSD's "button down" attitude was and is reassuring. He is not a die-hard unix wizard, and he does not want these machines broken into because "he forgot" to disable some stupid service he does not need, but did not realize he does not need. If it was not for his confidence in OpenBSD on that issue, we might still be running WinNT for DHCP, and trying to figure out how to use WinNT for DNS too (shudder). While I have no concerns about FreeBSD's security, I do think there will always be a place for OpenBSD's focus. I think it does all of us BSD's good to have someone in our group who is "competing" on security issues, and thus keeping all of us focused on that. Without that, we will focus on Microsoft, and that path will be an endless stream of adding features without any concern for security issues. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 5:18:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radon.gryphonsoft.com (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F7637B422; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by radon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 60B3C1950; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:14:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:14:50 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Satoshi Asami Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, trevor@jpj.net Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/audio/festlex-cmu Makefile ports/audio/festlex-oald Makefile ports/audio/festlex-ogi Makefile ports/audio/festlex-poslex Makefile ports/audio/festvox-abc Makefile ports/audio/festvox-don Makefile ports/audio/festvox-el11 ... Message-ID: <20000920071450.J35550@radon.gryphonsoft.com> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <200009200909.CAA99145@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200009200909.CAA99145@freefall.freebsd.org>; from asami@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 02:09:57AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 02:09:57AM -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > Log: > Use fullpaths (prepend "${.CURDIR}") in dependency dirs instead of > relative paths. This is necessary for INDEX generation to work. > > Change PORTNAME of festvox_{abc,don} to fostvox-{abc,don} for consistency > with other ports and port directory names. > > Approved by: maintainer No more crack for: will ;) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+ a--- C++ UB++++$ P+ L- E--- W+ N-- !o ?K w--- O- M+ V- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ G++ e>++++ h! r- y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 12:54:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A0D37B423; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:53:03 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8KJs5D23187; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:05 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:09:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:09:52AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) > > (b) They ship a secure default. > > > > Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done > > (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the > > box." > > I'd appreciate more specifics. I think (a) is largely a perceptual > advantage since software never stands still and I have to wonder just > how much of a "rolling audit" any project of a largely voluntary > nature can consistently manage. Since FreeBSD and OpenBSD share any "rolling audit" issues, it cannot be used as a factor to compare them. But OpenBSD went back and did the line-by-line audit of legacy code. Yes, bugs got past them, but a real audit is done by people (despite what some say about Theo) and people are going to miss some of them. And yes, I can only take their word for it. FreeBSD has made significant efforts to audit security-related code, but there is no denying that it has not has been as comprehensive as the OpenBSD effort or that it has had the same priority level. Again, FreeBSD is a darn secure system (relatively). In fact, the base OS /may/ be pretty much just as secure as OpenBSD. But one needs an audit to backup any such claim, and OpenBSD is the one that has the audit. Without an audit one has no way to really compare the security except for gut feel and notoriously unreliable exploit statistics. If I am behind on my facts (I thought FreeBSD had a security audit webpage, but I cannot find it now) or have been mislead, please let me know. > As for (b), I think FreeBSD has > already made some very sensible decisions there and would very much > appreciate knowing just where you think it's failed to do so, using > -current as a baseline if possible since there's not much point in > arguing about default security policies which have already been > changed. From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, inetd_enable="NO" sendmail_enable="NO" portmap_enable="NO" But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. This is good. One thing that, IMHO, should still be changed. Everything in /etc/inetd.conf should be turned off, i.e. commented out. Yes, in spite of the fact inetd is not on by default, you still should need to explicitly turn on each service inetd runs. And if one were to get really paraniod (and it is my job to be these days), /proc should not be put in a sysinstall generated fstab without warning the user due to its checkered security history (and it may just give out a little too much info to the mortal user). But I have not been able to examine 5.0-CURRENT enough to see how this is handled. It may do this for all I know. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 16:41:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3129637B423 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13btSF-0000RR-00; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:39:07 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:39:07 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg Black , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why not use partition d? Message-ID: <20000920233907.F327@hand.dotat.at> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Greg Black writes: >> I recently saw a statement on -hackers which asserted that one >> should not use partition d on FreeBSD disks "for historical >> reasons". > >There is no longer any reason for that, unless you plan to mount the >disk on a very old BSD system. What did they use partition d for? Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 0:42:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903A637B423; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31918; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:42:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Sep 2000 09:42:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J . Clark"'s message of "Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:05 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J . Clark" writes: > From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the > three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, > > inetd_enable="NO" > sendmail_enable="NO" > portmap_enable="NO" > > But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. > This is good. Actually, IIRC, sysinstall turns them on by default for POLA reasons. But at least now you can see from your rc.conf that they're on. > And if one were to get really paraniod (and it is my job to be these > days), /proc should not be put in a sysinstall generated fstab without > warning the user due to its checkered security history /proc should be fine now. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 2:28:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B4237B42C for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8L9PqK02201; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:25:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:25:52 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tony Finch Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Black , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why not use partition d? Message-ID: <20000921102552.A2133@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20000920233907.F327@hand.dotat.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000920233907.F327@hand.dotat.at>; from dot@dotat.at on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 11:39:07PM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 11:39:07PM +0000, Tony Finch wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >Greg Black writes: > >> I recently saw a statement on -hackers which asserted that one > >> should not use partition d on FreeBSD disks "for historical > >> reasons". > > > >There is no longer any reason for that, unless you plan to mount the > >disk on a very old BSD system. > > What did they use partition d for? As I recall, partition c was used when you wanted to reference the whole disk. Partition d was that part of the disk that had BSD filesystems on it. I could very well be wrong though. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 3:11:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5D637B449 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA08937; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:08:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJFaiwr; Thu Sep 21 03:08:42 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA09769; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:11:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009211011.DAA09769@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: affordable wireless To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:11:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), oberman@es.net (Kevin Oberman), khera@kciLink.com (Vivek Khera), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Sep 12, 2000 10:25:20 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > J. Daemen, R. Govaerts, J. Vandewalle, "Resynchronization weaknesses > > in synchronous stream ciphers," Advances in Cryptology, Proceedings > > Eurocrypt'93, LNCS 765, T. Helleseth, Ed., Springer-Verlag, 1994, > > pp. 159-169. > > > > 32. J. Goli'c, "Linear statistical weakness of alleged RC4 keystream > > generator," Advances in Cryptology, Proc. Eurocrypt'97, LNCS 1233, > > W. Fumy, Ed., SpringerVerlag, 1997, pp. 226--238. > > Fascinating. Do you know of any online sources for these > proceedings, or can you summarize their conclusions for us? They're like IEE papers; yo can look at them if you are a member of the SIG, but of course, if you are a member of the SIG, you are obligated to not disclose them, and you get published copies anyway. The place I dug them up was a college technical library; I tend to keep references to things like that handy for occasions like this one. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 5:53:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE6137B422 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 05:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.20] (spider.interactplus.com [216.180.46.102]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8LCrR705769 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 07:53:28 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dkelly@hiwaay.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 07:40:42 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You'd think Microsoft would know better than to use their own software to handle customer's money. Especially know better than to "test" on live accounts. http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/Sep2000/20-e2919.html -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 8:17:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406F937B422 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8LFHH512197; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:17:17 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) Message-ID: <20000921081717.S9141@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 07:40:42AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * David Kelly [000921 05:53] wrote: > You'd think Microsoft would know better than to use their own > software to handle customer's money. Especially know better than to > "test" on live accounts. > > http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/Sep2000/20-e2919.html Of course they knew better, but did they care? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 10:39:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A8337B423; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25176; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:38:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000921113652.053d4960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:38:51 -0600 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Jordan Hubbard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:54 PM 9/20/2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: >>From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the >three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, > > inetd_enable="NO" > sendmail_enable="NO" > portmap_enable="NO" But rc.conf turns them on! >But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. >This is good. It still leaves all of these on WITHOUT ASKING. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 12: 6:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CB337B446; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13cBer-0004l9-00; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:05:21 +0200 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:05:21 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Jordan Hubbard , Laurence Berland , security@FreeBSD.org Subject: sysinstall DOESN'T ASK, dangerous defaults! (Was: Re: wats so special about freeBSD?) Message-ID: <20000921210521.A17973@mithrandr.moria.org> Reply-To: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org, security@FreeBSD.org References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000921113652.053d4960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000921113652.053d4960@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 11:38:51AM -0600 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Cc trimmed, advocacy,chat -> security ] On Thu 2000-09-21 (11:38), Brett Glass wrote: > >>From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the > >three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, > > > > inetd_enable="NO" > > sendmail_enable="NO" > > portmap_enable="NO" > > But rc.conf turns them on! > > >But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. > >This is good. > > It still leaves all of these on WITHOUT ASKING. I have an idea. Why don't you submit a patch that'll make sysinstall ask about them, instead of using those scary capital letters and exclamation marks that make it sound like you're incredibly shocked over all this, on inappropriate mailing lists? Or, you could ask on one of the mailing lists if someone is willing to do the work for you, if you're unable to. Or maybe bring it to light on one of the appropriate mailing lists? Don't take this personally - it just seemed incredibly ironic at the time. Since we're here - does anyone feel up to writing a patch to make these questions instead, and I'll review them before passing it on to Jordan. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 16:33: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4BF37B423; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 81C701A75; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:28:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:28:41 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Bosko Milekic Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook authors.ent Message-ID: <20000921182841.B65893@puck.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <200009212247.PAA93671@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200009212247.PAA93671@freefall.freebsd.org>; from bmilekic@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 03:47:46PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 03:47:46PM -0700, Bosko Milekic wrote: > Modified files: > en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook authors.ent > Log: > First commit: add myself to committers list Congrats, Bosko! :) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+ a--- C++ UB++++$ P+ L- E--- W+ N-- !o ?K w--- O- M+ V- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ G++ e>++++ h! r- y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 18:49:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2FD37B422; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e8M1n2W34624; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:19:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:19:02 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nik Clayton Cc: Tony Finch , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Black , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why not use partition d? Message-ID: <20000922111902.L66887@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000920233907.F327@hand.dotat.at> <20000921102552.A2133@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000921102552.A2133@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 10:25:52AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 21 September 2000 at 10:25:52 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 11:39:07PM +0000, Tony Finch wrote: >> Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >>> Greg Black writes: >>>> I recently saw a statement on -hackers which asserted that one >>>> should not use partition d on FreeBSD disks "for historical >>>> reasons". >>> >>> There is no longer any reason for that, unless you plan to mount the >>> disk on a very old BSD system. >> >> What did they use partition d for? > > As I recall, partition c was used when you wanted to reference the > whole disk. Partition d was that part of the disk that had BSD > filesystems on it. I could very well be wrong though. I think it was the other way round. That's how NetBSD still does it, anyway. But yes, there's no reason not to use d any more. There's also very seldom any reason to use it. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 20:20: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE25437B422 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e8M3JpF78960; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:49:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:49:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) Message-ID: <20000922124951.S66887@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 07:40:42AM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 21 September 2000 at 7:40:42 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > You'd think Microsoft would know better than to use their own > software to handle customer's money. Especially know better than to > "test" on live accounts. > > http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/Sep2000/20-e2919.html Can you read that? I get a thin blue bar on the left of the screen, then a text par about a third of the width, with the text overlapping the blue bar. There's obviously something missing too: Davis doesn't know Gates, the chairman of Microsoft Corp., but she and her husband gave his company their checking account number while purchasing a computer in March. The Huntsville cou"Don't do any automatic withdrawals out of your checking account with a debit card." Ken Davis of Huntsville, the victim of a Microsoft billing error ple received a $400 rebate on their computer when they agreed to a three-year contract for Microsoft's Internet network. The contract required a credit card and gave Microsoft authority to withdraw $21.95 a month from the couple's Compass Bank account through a Visa debit card number. That looks seriously broken to me. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 1: 4:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FAB37B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id e8M7riG13021 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:53:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) In-Reply-To: <20000922124951.S66887@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/Sep2000/20-e2919.html > > Can you read that? I get a thin blue bar on the left of the screen, > then a text par about a third of the width, with the text overlapping > the blue bar. It looks okay to me (bsdi-netscape-navigator-4.75, no images nor Javascript, and "always use my colors, overriding document" not checked (it's buggy)). I tried loading a couple of images and there was indeed a thin, blue bar toward the bottom. > There's obviously something missing too: > > > Davis doesn't know Gates, the chairman of > Microsoft Corp., but she and her husband > gave his company their checking account > number while purchasing a computer in > March. The Huntsville cou"Don't do any ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > automatic withdrawals out of your checking ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > account with a debit card." Ken Davis of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Huntsville, the victim of a Microsoft billing ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > error ple received a $400 rebate on their ^^^^^^ Elide the part I've underlined (with "he said" it becomes the penultimate paragraph), and the word "couple" will appear. The remainder makes sense to me. > computer when they agreed to a three-year > contract for Microsoft's Internet network. > The contract required a credit card and gave > Microsoft authority to withdraw $21.95 a > month from the couple's Compass Bank > account through a Visa debit card number. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 4:27:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F26F37B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 04:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-117.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.117]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8MBR9700762; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:27:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22168; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:27:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009221127.GAA22168@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Trevor Johnson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@www.al.com Subject: Re: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) In-Reply-To: Message from Trevor Johnson of "Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:53:44 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:27:08 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trevor Johnson writes: > > > http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/Sep2000/20-e2919.html > > > > Can you read that? I get a thin blue bar on the left of the screen, > > then a text par about a third of the width, with the text overlapping > > the blue bar. > > It looks okay to me (bsdi-netscape-navigator-4.75, no images nor > Javascript, and "always use my colors, overriding document" not checked > (it's buggy)). I tried loading a couple of images and there was indeed a > thin, blue bar toward the bottom. The little blue bar is supposed to have a "Back" button on the far left. > > There's obviously something missing too: > > > > > > Davis doesn't know Gates, the chairman of > > Microsoft Corp., but she and her husband > > gave his company their checking account > > number while purchasing a computer in > > March. The Huntsville cou"Don't do any > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > automatic withdrawals out of your checking > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > account with a debit card." Ken Davis of > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Huntsville, the victim of a Microsoft billing > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > error ple received a $400 rebate on their > ^^^^^^ > > Elide the part I've underlined (with "he said" it becomes the penultimate > paragraph), and the word "couple" will appear. The remainder makes sense > to me. That site does this kind of crap in most every article. Maybe a little public embarrassment from out of town will help them get their ducks in order. Then again, they might be full of ex-microsofties and not understand. Come to think of it, the above messed up text is exactly the kind of thing that could happen when one uses a 3rd party MS-Word reader on a file that has been "quick saved". -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 4:33:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766CD37B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 04:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-117.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.117]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8MBXQ722930; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:33:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22188; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:33:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009221133.GAA22188@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:49:51 +0930." <20000922124951.S66887@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:33:24 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 21 September 2000 at 7:40:42 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > You'd think Microsoft would know better than to use their own > > software to handle customer's money. Especially know better than to > > "test" on live accounts. > > > > http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/Sep2000/20-e2919.html > > Can you read that? I get a thin blue bar on the left of the screen, > then a text par about a third of the width, with the text overlapping > the blue bar. There's obviously something missing too: The bar on the left is fairly thick and full of Javascript buttons. The site doesn't behave well at anything other than the chosen fonts they built into their page generators. Have no clue as to what those are. At the moment it displays fairly well for me but I don't know why. I've been dorking around with the "netscape fonts" port 100 dpi fonts, font sizes, etc. Speaking of which, I trashed (on purpose) my Netscape Preferences the other day on my Mac. Really changed the fonts that daemonnews used. Then visited some site or another and the daemonnews article font changed back to the way they used to be (too small). Almost made me mad enough to install Internet Exploder. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 5:47:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D5037B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 05:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA92464 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 05:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 05:47:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Vatican porn (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salon.com - Sept. 20, 2000 Mixing sound A Vatican festival is mistakenly broadcast over Italian TV with porn-movie soundtracks. By Jack Boulware Sept. 20, 2000 | Each year in mid-September the Roman Catholic Church celebrates the feast of the Exaltation of the Venerable Cross, which honors the fourth century finding of the Lord's Cross and its recovery from Persian captivity in the seventh century. Thanks to modern technology, this year's Vatican festival was televised live to millions of viewers across Italy, Spain and Latin America. Also thanks to modern technology, the broadcast of 20 cardinals celebrating Mass and leading prayers was accidentally accompanied by the soundtracks of hardcore-porn films. According to news reports, Italian broadcasting company RAI had intended to send audio and video from the festival to its satellite, to be bounced to Catholic audiences around the world. But a satellite TV company in Luxembourg managed to mix up the audio portions of the broadcasts of the Vatican festival and the Fantasy Channel -- playing the soundtracks of "Stacey and the Hunt" and "Babes Illustrated" during the festival broadcast. For two hours, millions of Roman Catholics watched video of cardinals singing hymns and praying, set to the orgasmic moaning and caterwauling of porn stars like Shyla Foxxx, Kaitlyn Ashley and Caressa Savage. Conversely, male viewers of the Fantasy Channel, sitting on sofas with their pants to their ankles, were treated to porn that featured holy incantations. "The film soundtrack was transmitted, and it was really hardcore stuff," said Deric Botham, managing editor of Television X, which produces the Fantasy Channel. "It could not have been worse." Reaction from the Vatican was uncharacteristically subdued, considering its views on pornography. "It sounded like a very unfortunate mistake," said a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps God does exist. - - - - - - - - - - - - About the writer Jack Boulware is a writer in San Francisco and author of "San Francisco Bizarro" and "Sex American Style. -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 6:40:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6747737B424 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id e8MDeeu23288; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:40:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Quality Control (lack of:) In-Reply-To: <200009221133.GAA22188@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The bar on the left is fairly thick and full of Javascript buttons. The > site doesn't behave well at anything other than the chosen fonts they > built into their page generators. Have no clue as to what those are. At > the moment it displays fairly well for me but I don't know why. I've > been dorking around with the "netscape fonts" port 100 dpi fonts, font > sizes, etc. The fonts look okay to me. $ ls /var/db/pkg/|grep -i font funetfonts-1.300 ja-netscape-fonts-1.0 http://jpj.net/~trevor/netscape-preferences.gz HTH. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 9:49:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AC337B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.253.85.127]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000922164906.SPJM13676.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish> for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:49:06 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8MGmlS01865 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:48:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:48:47 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: BMW - Powered by FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000922174846.A258@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I love this.... http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/bmw.jpg (15KB) -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 10:54:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7A237B422; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA48214; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:48:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:48:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BMW - Powered by FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20000922174846.A258@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > I love this.... > > http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/bmw.jpg (15KB) Heh, I wonder if they were aware of the connotations of that advertisement. Was this advertised in a tech-heavy area or something? -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures. ( http://www.freebsd.org ) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 10:59:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB8E37B42C for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.253.84.33]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000922175920.STCV16640.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:59:20 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8MHx3602504; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:59:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:59:02 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Chris Dillon Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BMW - Powered by FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000922185902.E258@parish> References: <20000922174846.A258@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:48:17PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:48:17PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > I love this.... > > > > http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/bmw.jpg (15KB) > > Heh, I wonder if they were aware of the connotations of that > advertisement. Was this advertised in a tech-heavy area or something? > Dunno. Someone (who knows my opinions regarding OSen :)) mailed it to me. I'm sure it's intended as a pun, after all with a soft top is without a roof, not windows (OK they're wound down in the picture). > > -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net > FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. > For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures. ( http://www.freebsd.org ) > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 16:33:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B9E37B43F; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA53920; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:33:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: John Baldwin Cc: Sergey Babkin , chat@Freebsd.org Subject: Re: VM troubles in -current ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > The symptoms you describe (runs fine for a while and then dies) are very > indicative of hardware that is overheating and then having errors, so you > also probably want to check your fans, etc. Running a buildworld pushes the > machine harder. :) Also, having gcc generate code that jumps into the > middle of an instruction is a very, very low probability. Apparently, the > solar activity is at one of its peaks this year, thus resulting a lot more > failures than usual. Significantly more failures from what I've been told. > Having tens of machines start spewwing ECC corrections and eventually > errors after only being up for a couple of days and stuff like that. Without wanting to make a comment about the possible likelihood of solar activity causing this particular problem: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_936000/936606.stm :-) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 23:26: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4D937B43C; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13chYZ-0000RB-00; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:08:59 -0600 Message-ID: <39CC3AEB.3D768A0E@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:08:59 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the more > > secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when properly > > configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to make the claims > > they do. > > I never questioned the right to make the claims (they've earned it), but > I just wondered if people just read what everyone else says about each > BSD and accepts as the gospel truth or actually uses this old crusty > tool called research. Or perhaps this crusty old tool called using each of them daily? FreeBSD does have a number of advantages over OpenBSD. Some of them the OpenBSD developers would perhaps shrug off as rock-polishing, but the hours spent developing the FreeBSD build system has made it much more workable than what OpenBSD has. The much larger ports collection, despite the ease of moving FreeBSD ports to OpenBSD, shows how much bigger the group of people working on FreeBSD is. The FreeBSD installation is head and shoulders over OpenBSD or NetBSD, at least as of 1.4.2. OTOH, if you want to install a secure system and don't know what you're doing, OpenBSD installs a much more secure configuration out of the box. The afterboot(8) man page helps a neophyte administrator figure out what they might want to do to continue securing their system. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 23 14:42:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D9C37B422; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17007; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:50:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:50:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200009232150.QAA17007@corserv.corserv.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vatican porn (fwd) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I fail to see what about this post is discussion worthy. Is chat really becoming such a sewer? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 23 15: 3:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B22837B424; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA66559; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Kevin Lyons Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vatican porn (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200009232150.QAA17007@corserv.corserv.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: > I fail to see what about this post is discussion worthy. Is chat really > becoming such a sewer? Go reread the mailing list charter. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 23 15:27:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF8837B43C; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1765.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.229]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079D8D9FB; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:27:25 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:27:12 +0200 To: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Vatican porn (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:47 AM -0700 2000/9/22, Kris Kennaway wrote: > A Vatican festival is mistakenly broadcast over Italian TV with porn-movie > soundtracks. This is a riot -- an absolute riot. Has anyone here heard of any first-hand accounts, or even heard this broadcast themselves? I'd love to hear more information about this, but preferably not twelfth-hand. ;-) > Reaction from the Vatican was uncharacteristically subdued, considering its > views on pornography. "It sounded like a very unfortunate mistake," said a > spokesman for the Roman Catholic Church. > > Perhaps God does exist. From : Memorable Quotes from Skin Deep (1989) Zach: There is a God! And he's a gag-writer! Blake Edwards had no idea how right he was. ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 23 15:31: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFF337B424; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id e8NMV6r18056; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vatican porn (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A Vatican festival is mistakenly broadcast over Italian TV with > porn-movie soundtracks. "France Telecom Channel... beamed a porno movie to the entire Arabic world... the French company blamed a technical error" -- http://weeklywire.com/ww/08-04-97/alibi_facts.html -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 23 17: 0:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C4B37B449 for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23888; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:00:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000923175922.04725100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:00:04 -0600 To: Kevin Lyons , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Vatican porn (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200009232150.QAA17007@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:50 PM 9/23/2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: >I fail to see what about this post is discussion worthy. Is chat really >becoming such a sewer? Don't be such a sour puss! I thought it was quite funny. --Brett SOCIAL SECURITY: I say we scrap the current system and replace it with a system wherein you add your name to the bottom of a list, and then you send some money to the person at the top of the list, and then you.... Oh, wait, that IS our current system. -- Dave Barry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 23 21:13:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falla.videotron.net (falla.videotron.net [205.151.222.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750C537B422 for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modemcable136.203-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca ([24.201.203.136]) by falla.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8) with ESMTP id <0G1D0008HIDSVW@falla.videotron.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:16:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Bosko Milekic Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook authors.ent In-reply-to: <20000921182841.B65893@puck.firepipe.net> To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 03:47:46PM -0700, Bosko Milekic wrote: > > Modified files: > > en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook authors.ent > > Log: > > First commit: add myself to committers list > > Congrats, Bosko! :) "Danke," as they say. Now I can get bitching that is ultimately the result of my code directed to me (as opposed to poor green, who usually has to grind his teeth, bite down, and accept it for me). :-) > -- > Will Andrews > GCS/E/S @d- s+:+ a--- C++ UB++++$ P+ L- E--- W+ N-- !o ?K w--- > O- M+ V- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ > G++ e>++++ h! r- y? Cheers, Bosko Milekic bmilekic@technokratis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message