From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Oct 28 18: 8:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.iatp.org (iatp-2.InnovSoftD.com [208.141.36.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EE237B407; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [64.3.194.210] by mail.iatp.org (SMTPD32-7.04) id AA181D50190; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:08:24 -0600 From: Subject: laser supplies Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:09:41 Message-Id: <393.767383.441861@unknown> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG **** VORTEX SUPPLIES **** YOUR LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGE, COPIER AND FAX CARTRIDGE CONNECTION SAVE UP TO 30% FROM RETAIL ORDER BY PHONE:1-888-288-9043 ORDER BY FAX: 1-888-977-1577 E-MAIL REMOVAL LINE: 1-888-248-4930 UNIVERSITY AND/OR SCHOOL PURCHASE ORDERS WELCOME. (NO CREDIT APPROVAL REQUIRED) ALL OTHER PURCHASE ORDER REQUESTS REQUIRE CREDIT APPROVAL. PAY BY CHECK (C.O.D), CREDIT CARD OR PURCHASE ORDER (NET 30 DAYS). IF YOUR ORDER IS BY CREDIT CARD PLEASE LEAVE YOUR CREDIT CARD # PLUS EXPIRATION DATE. IF YOUR ORDER IS BY PURCHASE ORDER LEAVE YOUR SHIPPING/BILLING ADDRESSES AND YOUR P.O. NUMBER NOTE: WE DO NOT CARRY 1) XEROX, BROTHER, PANASONIC, FUJITSU PRODUCTS 2) HP DESKJETJET/INK JET OR BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 3) CANON BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 4) ANY OFFBRANDS BESIDES THE ONES LISTED BELOW. OUR NEW , LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGE, PRICES ARE AS FOLLOWS: (PLEASE ORDER BY PAGE NUMBER AND/OR ITEM NUMBER) HEWLETT PACKARD: (ON PAGE 2) ITEM #1 LASERJET SERIES 4L,4P (74A)------------------------$44 ITEM #2 LASERJET SERIES 1100 (92A)-------------------------$44 ITEM #3 LASERJET SERIES 2 (95A)----------------------------$39 ITEM #4 LASERJET SERIES 2P (75A)---------------------------$54 ITEM #5 LASERJET SERIES 5P,6P,5MP, 6MP (3903A)---------- -$44 ITEM #6 LASERJET SERIES 5SI, 8000 (09A)--------------------$95 ITEM #7 LASERJET SERIES 2100, 2200 (96A)-------------------$74 ITEM #8 LASERJET SERIES 8100 (82X)-------------------------$115 ITEM #9 LASERJET SERIES 5L/6L (3906A)----------------------$39 ITEM #10 LASERJET SERIES 4V---------------------------------$95 ITEM #11 LASERJET SERIES 4000 (27X)--------------------------$79 ITEM #12 LASERJET SERIES 3SI/4SI (91A)-----------------------$54 ITEM #13 LASERJET SERIES 4, 4M, 5,5M-------------------------$49 ITEM #13A LASERJET SERIES 5000 (29X)-------------------------$125 ITEM #13B LASERJET SERIES 1200-------------------------------$59 ITEM #13C LASERJET SERIES 4100-------------------------------$99 ITEM #18 LASERJET SERIES 3100------------------------------$39 ITEM #19 LASERJET SERIES 4500 BLACK--------------------------$79 ITEM #20 LASERJET SERIES 4500 COLORS ------------------------$125 HEWLETT PACKARD FAX (ON PAGE 2) ITEM #14 LASERFAX 500, 700 (FX1)----------$49 ITEM #15 LASERFAX 5000,7000 (FX2)--------$64 ITEM #16 LASERFAX (FX3)------------------$59 ITEM #17 LASERFAX (FX4)------------------$54 LEXMARK/IBM (ON PAGE 3) OPTRA 4019, 4029 HIGH YIELD---------------$89 OPTRA R, 4039, 4049 HIGH YIELD-----------$105 OPTRA E310.312 HIGH YIELD----------------$79 OPTRA E-----------------------------------$59 OPTRA N----------------------------------$115 OPTRA S----------------------------------$165 OPTRA T----------------------------------$195 OPTRA E310/312---------------------------$79 EPSON (ON PAGE 4) ACTION LASER 7000,7500,8000,9000----------$105 ACTION LASER 1000,1500--------------------$105 CANON PRINTERS (ON PAGE 5) PLEASE CALL FOR MODELS AND UPDATED PRICES FOR CANON PRINTER CARTRIDGES PANASONIC (0N PAGE 7) NEC SERIES 2 MODELS 90 AND 95----------$105 APPLE (0N PAGE 8) LASER WRITER PRO 600 or 16/600------------------$49 LASER WRITER SELECT 300,320,360-----------------$74 LASER WRITER 300 AND 320------------------------$54 LASER WRITER NT, 2NT----------------------------$54 LASER WRITER 12/640-----------------------------$79 CANON FAX (ON PAGE 9) LASERCLASS 4000 (FX3)---------------------------$59 LASERCLASS 5000,6000,7000 (FX2)-----------------$54 LASERFAX 5000,7000 (FX2)------------------------$54 LASERFAX 8500,9000 (FX4)------------------------$54 CANON COPIERS (PAGE 10) PC 3, 6RE, 7 AND 11 (A30)---------------------$69 PC 300,320,700,720,760,900,910,920(E-40)------$89 90 DAY UNLIMITED WARRANTY INCLUDED ON ALL PRODUCTS. ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Oct 28 21:59:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from heritageins.org (www.heritageins.org [65.201.82.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ED437B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [64.3.194.210] by heritageins.org (SMTPD32-6.00) id A1CC22D0254; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:06:04 -0600 From: Subject: laser supplies Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:00:37 Message-Id: <641.147009.690482@unknown> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG **** VORTEX SUPPLIES **** YOUR LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGE, COPIER AND FAX CARTRIDGE CONNECTION SAVE UP TO 30% FROM RETAIL ORDER BY PHONE:1-888-288-9043 ORDER BY FAX: 1-888-977-1577 E-MAIL REMOVAL LINE: 1-888-248-4930 UNIVERSITY AND/OR SCHOOL PURCHASE ORDERS WELCOME. (NO CREDIT APPROVAL REQUIRED) ALL OTHER PURCHASE ORDER REQUESTS REQUIRE CREDIT APPROVAL. PAY BY CHECK (C.O.D), CREDIT CARD OR PURCHASE ORDER (NET 30 DAYS). IF YOUR ORDER IS BY CREDIT CARD PLEASE LEAVE YOUR CREDIT CARD # PLUS EXPIRATION DATE. IF YOUR ORDER IS BY PURCHASE ORDER LEAVE YOUR SHIPPING/BILLING ADDRESSES AND YOUR P.O. NUMBER NOTE: WE DO NOT CARRY 1) XEROX, BROTHER, PANASONIC, FUJITSU PRODUCTS 2) HP DESKJETJET/INK JET OR BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 3) CANON BUBBLE JET CARTRIDGES 4) ANY OFFBRANDS BESIDES THE ONES LISTED BELOW. OUR NEW , LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGE, PRICES ARE AS FOLLOWS: (PLEASE ORDER BY PAGE NUMBER AND/OR ITEM NUMBER) HEWLETT PACKARD: (ON PAGE 2) ITEM #1 LASERJET SERIES 4L,4P (74A)------------------------$44 ITEM #2 LASERJET SERIES 1100 (92A)-------------------------$44 ITEM #3 LASERJET SERIES 2 (95A)----------------------------$39 ITEM #4 LASERJET SERIES 2P (75A)---------------------------$54 ITEM #5 LASERJET SERIES 5P,6P,5MP, 6MP (3903A)---------- -$44 ITEM #6 LASERJET SERIES 5SI, 8000 (09A)--------------------$95 ITEM #7 LASERJET SERIES 2100, 2200 (96A)-------------------$74 ITEM #8 LASERJET SERIES 8100 (82X)-------------------------$115 ITEM #9 LASERJET SERIES 5L/6L (3906A)----------------------$39 ITEM #10 LASERJET SERIES 4V---------------------------------$95 ITEM #11 LASERJET SERIES 4000 (27X)--------------------------$79 ITEM #12 LASERJET SERIES 3SI/4SI (91A)-----------------------$54 ITEM #13 LASERJET SERIES 4, 4M, 5,5M-------------------------$49 ITEM #13A LASERJET SERIES 5000 (29X)-------------------------$125 ITEM #13B LASERJET SERIES 1200-------------------------------$59 ITEM #13C LASERJET SERIES 4100-------------------------------$99 ITEM #18 LASERJET SERIES 3100------------------------------$39 ITEM #19 LASERJET SERIES 4500 BLACK--------------------------$79 ITEM #20 LASERJET SERIES 4500 COLORS ------------------------$125 HEWLETT PACKARD FAX (ON PAGE 2) ITEM #14 LASERFAX 500, 700 (FX1)----------$49 ITEM #15 LASERFAX 5000,7000 (FX2)--------$64 ITEM #16 LASERFAX (FX3)------------------$59 ITEM #17 LASERFAX (FX4)------------------$54 LEXMARK/IBM (ON PAGE 3) OPTRA 4019, 4029 HIGH YIELD---------------$89 OPTRA R, 4039, 4049 HIGH YIELD-----------$105 OPTRA E310.312 HIGH YIELD----------------$79 OPTRA E-----------------------------------$59 OPTRA N----------------------------------$115 OPTRA S----------------------------------$165 OPTRA T----------------------------------$195 OPTRA E310/312---------------------------$79 EPSON (ON PAGE 4) ACTION LASER 7000,7500,8000,9000----------$105 ACTION LASER 1000,1500--------------------$105 CANON PRINTERS (ON PAGE 5) PLEASE CALL FOR MODELS AND UPDATED PRICES FOR CANON PRINTER CARTRIDGES PANASONIC (0N PAGE 7) NEC SERIES 2 MODELS 90 AND 95----------$105 APPLE (0N PAGE 8) LASER WRITER PRO 600 or 16/600------------------$49 LASER WRITER SELECT 300,320,360-----------------$74 LASER WRITER 300 AND 320------------------------$54 LASER WRITER NT, 2NT----------------------------$54 LASER WRITER 12/640-----------------------------$79 CANON FAX (ON PAGE 9) LASERCLASS 4000 (FX3)---------------------------$59 LASERCLASS 5000,6000,7000 (FX2)-----------------$54 LASERFAX 5000,7000 (FX2)------------------------$54 LASERFAX 8500,9000 (FX4)------------------------$54 CANON COPIERS (PAGE 10) PC 3, 6RE, 7 AND 11 (A30)---------------------$69 PC 300,320,700,720,760,900,910,920(E-40)------$89 90 DAY UNLIMITED WARRANTY INCLUDED ON ALL PRODUCTS. ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:21:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2966B37B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18545 invoked by uid 3001); 30 Oct 2001 16:21:06 -0000 Received: from natto.numachi.com (198.175.254.216) by numachi.numachi.com with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 16:21:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 40131 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Oct 2001 16:21:06 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:21:06 -0500 From: Brian Reichert To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Message-ID: <20011030112106.J71395@numachi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Way back when, there used to be available denim shirts with the FreeBSD logo. Are those still available anywhere? I couldn't find any in a recent search... -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:28:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.stcorp.com (stasc53.stcorp.com [207.203.33.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E126D37B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from msc-002.msg.stcorp.com ([10.10.40.162]) by mail1.stcorp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:24:23 -0600 Received: from msm-001.msg.stcorp.com ([10.10.40.140]) by msc-002.msg.stcorp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:28:32 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:28:32 -0600 Message-ID: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDD@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Thread-Index: AcFhXu9ezzxxEtpmRAiL7bPmf5n1qAAANNog From: "Nicpon, John" To: "Brian Reichert" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Oct 2001 16:28:32.0787 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA8B4E30:01C1615F] Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Try this vendor: http://www.thinkgeek.com They still stock them. -----Original Message----- From: Brian Reichert [mailto:reichert@numachi.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:21 AM To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Way back when, there used to be available denim shirts with the FreeBSD logo. Are those still available anywhere? I couldn't find any in a recent search... --=20 Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:45:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4409137B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19071 invoked by uid 3001); 30 Oct 2001 16:45:39 -0000 Received: from natto.numachi.com (198.175.254.216) by numachi.numachi.com with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 16:45:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 40345 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Oct 2001 16:45:39 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:45:39 -0500 From: Brian Reichert To: "Nicpon, John" Cc: Brian Reichert , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Message-ID: <20011030114539.K71395@numachi.com> References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDD@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDD@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com>; from John.Nicpon@SouthTrust.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:28:32AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:28:32AM -0600, Nicpon, John wrote: > Brian > > Try this vendor: > > http://www.thinkgeek.com > > They still stock them. Thanks for the pointer, but I domn't see any denim shirt at all. :/ Lotsa neat stuff, though... -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:53:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.stcorp.com (stasc52.stcorp.com [207.203.33.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A3A37B40A for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from msc-002.msg.stcorp.com ([10.10.40.162]) by mail2.stcorp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:49:43 -0600 Received: from msm-001.msg.stcorp.com ([10.10.40.140]) by msc-002.msg.stcorp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:52:46 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:52:45 -0600 Message-ID: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDE@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Thread-Index: AcFhYnegLVjnNL3dTGG8xE5i+VV3NQAAK07Q From: "Nicpon, John" To: "Brian Reichert" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Oct 2001 16:52:46.0027 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CBE21B0:01C16163] Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It's there... Scroll down on this page :) http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/apparel/work-wear.shtml -----Original Message----- From: Brian Reichert [mailto:reichert@numachi.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:46 AM To: Nicpon, John Cc: Brian Reichert;=20 Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:28:32AM -0600, Nicpon, John wrote: > Brian >=20 > Try this vendor: >=20 > http://www.thinkgeek.com >=20 > They still stock them. Thanks for the pointer, but I domn't see any denim shirt at all. :/ Lotsa neat stuff, though... --=20 Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:55:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2772D37B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 6A90A4; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD6249A15; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:55:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:55:26 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Brian Reichert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? In-Reply-To: <20011030112106.J71395@numachi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daemon News is working on stocking them. We should have them soon. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Brian Reichert wrote: > Way back when, there used to be available denim shirts with the > FreeBSD logo. Are those still available anywhere? I couldn't find > any in a recent search... > > -- > Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert > 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 > Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:55:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 149D337B405 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19227 invoked by uid 3001); 30 Oct 2001 16:55:44 -0000 Received: from natto.numachi.com (198.175.254.216) by numachi.numachi.com with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 16:55:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 40470 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Oct 2001 16:55:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:55:44 -0500 From: Brian Reichert To: "Nicpon, John" Cc: Brian Reichert , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Message-ID: <20011030115544.M71395@numachi.com> References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDE@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDE@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com>; from John.Nicpon@SouthTrust.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:52:45AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:52:45AM -0600, Nicpon, John wrote: > It's there... Scroll down on this page :) > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/apparel/work-wear.shtml I see twill and golf shirts. I'm looking for the long-sleeved denim shirts. :/ -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 8:59:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.stcorp.com (stasc52.stcorp.com [207.203.33.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB5637B405 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from msc-002.msg.stcorp.com ([10.10.40.162]) by mail2.stcorp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:56:28 -0600 Received: from msm-001.msg.stcorp.com ([10.10.40.140]) by msc-002.msg.stcorp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:59:32 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:59:31 -0600 Message-ID: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDF@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Thread-Index: AcFhY7jb7C9uQI0rRguN2lmSdv18iwAACILg From: "Nicpon, John" To: "Brian Reichert" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Oct 2001 16:59:32.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[3EE95EF0:01C16164] Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well you didn't mention long-sleeves >;-) Good luck in your search... -John -----Original Message----- From: Brian Reichert [mailto:reichert@numachi.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:56 AM To: Nicpon, John Cc: Brian Reichert; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:52:45AM -0600, Nicpon, John wrote: > It's there... Scroll down on this page :) >=20 > http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/apparel/work-wear.shtml I see twill and golf shirts. I'm looking for the long-sleeved denim shirts. :/ --=20 Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 9: 3:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10D0F37B405 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19412 invoked by uid 3001); 30 Oct 2001 17:03:36 -0000 Received: from natto.numachi.com (198.175.254.216) by numachi.numachi.com with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 17:03:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 40630 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Oct 2001 17:03:36 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:03:36 -0500 From: Brian Reichert To: "Nicpon, John" Cc: Brian Reichert , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Message-ID: <20011030120336.N71395@numachi.com> References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDF@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FDF@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com>; from John.Nicpon@SouthTrust.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:59:31AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:59:31AM -0600, Nicpon, John wrote: > Well you didn't mention long-sleeves >;-) But I did mention denim. :) > Good luck in your search... Thanks for your halp, though. They have a a lot of neat stuff... > > -John > -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 9:26:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7370337B403 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA64406; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:26:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:26:43 -0500 From: Michael Lucas To: Chris Coleman Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Message-ID: <20011030122643.A64390@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20011030112106.J71395@numachi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chrisc@vmunix.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:55:26AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Any chance you'll be stocking them in larger sizes for us too-chairbound types? :) On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:55:26AM -0500, Chris Coleman wrote: > Daemon News is working on stocking them. We should have them soon. > > Chris Coleman Editor in Chief > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org > Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 12: 5:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FE7137B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25932 invoked from network); 30 Oct 2001 20:05:17 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070b) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 20:05:17 -0000 Message-ID: <000b01c1617e$3af394e0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Michael Lucas" , "Chris Coleman" Cc: References: <20011030112106.J71395@numachi.com> <20011030122643.A64390@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:05:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Any chance you'll be stocking them in larger sizes for us > too-chairbound types? :) I know, they should always stock shirts in extra-tubby and double-extra-tubby. > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:55:26AM -0500, Chris Coleman wrote: > > Daemon News is working on stocking them. We should have them soon. > > > > Chris Coleman Editor in Chief > > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org > > Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org > > -- > Michael Lucas > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 12:15:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA0537B413 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 7715D4; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7001549A15; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:15:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:15:38 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Michael Lucas , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? In-Reply-To: <000b01c1617e$3af394e0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One thing we have been doing lately is offering the t-shirts as a pre-order before making the actual order, this allows us to make all sizes available before gambling and trying to stock double-extra-tubby and extremely-super-small sizes and then not being able to sell them. It puts a bit of a delay during the pre-order stage, but I think the benefits to those with differing size needs make up for it. It has worked well for us so far, so I think we will keep doing it this way. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > Any chance you'll be stocking them in larger sizes for us > > too-chairbound types? :) > > I know, they should always stock shirts in extra-tubby and > double-extra-tubby. > > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:55:26AM -0500, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > Daemon News is working on stocking them. We should have them soon. > > > > > > Chris Coleman Editor in Chief > > > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > > > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org > > > Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org > > > > -- > > Michael Lucas > > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 14:12:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A73E37B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26974 invoked from network); 30 Oct 2001 22:12:14 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070b) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 30 Oct 2001 22:12:14 -0000 Message-ID: <001801c1618f$f726fe70$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Chris Coleman" Cc: "Michael Lucas" , References: Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:12:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Delay vs a shirt you can't wear or looks bad because it's too small, I'll take the delay. :) > One thing we have been doing lately is offering the t-shirts as a > pre-order before making the actual order, this allows us to make all sizes > available before gambling and trying to stock double-extra-tubby and > extremely-super-small sizes and then not being able to sell them. It puts > a bit of a delay during the pre-order stage, but I think the benefits to > those with differing size needs make up for it. It has worked well for us > so far, so I think we will keep doing it this way. > > Chris Coleman Editor in Chief > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org > Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > > Any chance you'll be stocking them in larger sizes for us > > > too-chairbound types? :) > > > > I know, they should always stock shirts in extra-tubby and > > double-extra-tubby. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:55:26AM -0500, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > > Daemon News is working on stocking them. We should have them soon. > > > > > > > > Chris Coleman Editor in Chief > > > > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > > > > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org > > > > Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org > > > > > > -- > > > Michael Lucas > > > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > > > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 15:34:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399D237B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9UNYG583748 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:34:17 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:34:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD Reply-To: dan@langille.org Message-ID: <3BDEF2A7.24978.673A72E@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v4.0, beta 40) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I won't know when, but I'm going to be giving a talk about FreeBSD to a local Linux group. Included will be a demo install. With luck, that will lead to another seminar where everyone will turn up with a box and be helped through the install. I will not be getting into an us/them debate. Nor will I be giving them reason why FreeBSD is better/bigger/etc. I'll just be tell them what I know. Here are some of the points I'll cover (I've given this very little thought so far). - What is FreeBSD? (history, platforms) - Relationships to other BSDs (OpenBSD, NetBSD, BSD/OS, Mac/OS) - Major differences between Linux and FreeBSD from a Linux user point of view - Installation process (demo will be from CD) -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 15:55:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF8B37B403 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15yigB-0006d7-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:52:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:52:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3BDEF2A7.24978.673A72E@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > I won't know when, but I'm going to be giving a talk about FreeBSD > to a local Linux group. Included will be a demo install. With luck, > Here are some of the points I'll cover (I've given this very little > thought so far). Also, consider sharing the similarities. Explain that "open source" and Unix does not mean "Linux". Show X, vnc, konqueror, netscape, gnumeric and other applications that look and act the same. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 16: 1:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDE337B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9V00t584011; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:00:56 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:00:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3BDEF8E5.11351.68C09E8@localhost> References: <3BDEF2A7.24978.673A72E@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v4.0, beta 40) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Oct 2001 at 15:52, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > I won't know when, but I'm going to be giving a talk about FreeBSD > > to a local Linux group. Included will be a demo install. With luck, > > > Here are some of the points I'll cover (I've given this very little > > thought so far). > > Also, consider sharing the similarities. Explain that "open source" and > Unix does not mean "Linux". Show X, vnc, konqueror, netscape, gnumeric and > other applications that look and act the same. A very good point. I suspect they'll find that the simlarities give them more reason to try FreeBSD than the differences. There's nothing like knowing you'll still have your favourite app available to you. If it wasn't available, that's just a reason NOT to try FreeBSD. Thank you. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 16: 9: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F300437B405 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7C45A786DE; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:38:53 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:38:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20011031103853.H70354@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3BDEF2A7.24978.673A72E@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BDEF2A7.24978.673A72E@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 06:34:15PM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 30 October 2001 at 18:34:15 -0500, Dan Langille wrote: > I won't know when, but I'm going to be giving a talk about FreeBSD > to a local Linux group. Included will be a demo install. With luck, > that will lead to another seminar where everyone will turn up with a > box and be helped through the install. > > I will not be getting into an us/them debate. Nor will I be giving them > reason why FreeBSD is better/bigger/etc. I'll just be tell them what > I know. > > Here are some of the points I'll cover (I've given this very little > thought so far). > > - What is FreeBSD? (history, platforms) > - Relationships to other BSDs (OpenBSD, NetBSD, BSD/OS, Mac/OS) > - Major differences between Linux and FreeBSD from a Linux user point > of view > - Installation process (demo will be from CD) Sounds good. I have a BSD presentation you can use or adapt if you want. The slides are at http://www.lemis.com/installfest.pdf - use acroread to display them in full screen mode. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 16:21: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF13D37B405; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9V0Kv584227; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:20:58 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Greg Lehey Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:20:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <3BDEFD97.9425.69E5F88@localhost> In-reply-to: <20011031103853.H70354@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3BDEF2A7.24978.673A72E@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 06:34:15PM -0500 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v4.0, beta 40) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 31 Oct 2001 at 10:38, Greg Lehey wrote: > Sounds good. I have a BSD presentation you can use or adapt if you > want. The slides are at http://www.lemis.com/installfest.pdf - use > acroread to display them in full screen mode. Thanks. I think using your presentation might be a good idea. I can tell them it was first presented at.... etc. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 21:44: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from athena.za.net (athena.za.net [196.30.167.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAB137B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:44:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from jus (helo=localhost) by athena.za.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15yo6r-000AYr-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:40:17 +0200 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:40:17 +0200 (SAST) From: Justin Stanford X-Sender: jus@athena.za.net To: Dan Langille Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3BDEF8E5.11351.68C09E8@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dan, If at all possible could you put up a copy of your notes/speech/slides/etc on the Internet? Thank you kindly, Justin -- Justin Stanford Internet/Network Security & Solutions Consultant 4D Digital Security http://www.4dds.co.za Cell: (082) 7402741 E-Mail: jus@security.za.net PGP Key: http://www.security.za.net/jus-pgp-key.txt On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > On 30 Oct 2001 at 15:52, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > I won't know when, but I'm going to be giving a talk about FreeBSD > > > to a local Linux group. Included will be a demo install. With luck, > > > > > Here are some of the points I'll cover (I've given this very little > > > thought so far). > > > > Also, consider sharing the similarities. Explain that "open source" and > > Unix does not mean "Linux". Show X, vnc, konqueror, netscape, gnumeric and > > other applications that look and act the same. > > A very good point. I suspect they'll find that the simlarities give them > more reason to try FreeBSD than the differences. There's nothing like > knowing you'll still have your favourite app available to you. If it > wasn't available, that's just a reason NOT to try FreeBSD. > > Thank you. > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 30 21:51:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2239537B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9V5or587821; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:51:05 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Justin Stanford Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:50:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Talking to a Linux user group about FreeBSD Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3BDF4AEB.21884.7CC2596@localhost> References: <3BDEF8E5.11351.68C09E8@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v4.0, beta 40) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, I will. The talk is scheduled for early January... On 31 Oct 2001 at 7:40, Justin Stanford wrote: > Dan, > > If at all possible could you put up a copy of your notes/speech/slides/etc > on the Internet? > > Thank you kindly, > Justin > > -- > Justin Stanford > Internet/Network Security & Solutions Consultant > 4D Digital Security > http://www.4dds.co.za > Cell: (082) 7402741 > E-Mail: jus@security.za.net > PGP Key: http://www.security.za.net/jus-pgp-key.txt > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > On 30 Oct 2001 at 15:52, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > > I won't know when, but I'm going to be giving a talk about FreeBSD > > > > to a local Linux group. Included will be a demo install. With luck, > > > > > > > Here are some of the points I'll cover (I've given this very little > > > > thought so far). > > > > > > Also, consider sharing the similarities. Explain that "open source" and > > > Unix does not mean "Linux". Show X, vnc, konqueror, netscape, gnumeric and > > > other applications that look and act the same. > > > > A very good point. I suspect they'll find that the simlarities give them > > more reason to try FreeBSD than the differences. There's nothing like > > knowing you'll still have your favourite app available to you. If it > > wasn't available, that's just a reason NOT to try FreeBSD. > > > > Thank you. > > -- > > Dan Langille > > The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 4:37:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn114-32.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.32.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21AD37B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id f9VCaPE30330; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:36:25 GMT (envelope-from wcp) From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:36:25 +0000 To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: NatWest? no thanks X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mostly relevant to people living in UK: http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 8:22: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9AB37B410; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23688; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:21:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:21:39 -0700 To: walter@pelissero.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Walter: Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with whatever you specify. --Brett At 05:36 AM 10/31/2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: >Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html > >-- >walter pelissero >http://www.pelissero.org > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 9:28: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn142-37.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.37.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9453C37B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id f9VHQrU35353; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:26:53 GMT (envelope-from wcp) From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:26:51 +0000 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). > Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with > whatever you specify. Are suggesting that I should disguise myself to access a service I pay for? Sounds like freedom of choice is all right as long as you practice it undercover. I know there are plenty of http filters (not necessarily expensive ones) that would let me sneak through the fascist bank's compatibility checks. I could even use Internet Explorer from within a VMWare emulator. That's not the point. I just dont' want to support an obvious political discrimination not supported by any practical or technical fact. BTW, how would an http filter serve you when you visit, say, a download page that chooses the right link to follow according to the OS you are running? Or are suggesting to configure Netscape to switch proxy only when I have to access my bank? -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 9:42:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from runcirc.demon.co.uk (runcirc.demon.co.uk [158.152.9.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D8037B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roger@localhost) by runcirc.demon.co.uk (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f9VHg7e04226; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:42:07 GMT Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:42:07 +0000 From: Roger McCalman To: Brett Glass Cc: walter@pelissero.org, chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011031174206.D3104@runcirc.local> References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:21:39AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:21:39AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Walter: > > Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). > Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with > whatever you specify. It still does'nt change the JavaScript that the browser executes that determines if you can see the pages or not. Cheers, Roger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 12:11:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5382D37B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-216.wobline.de [212.68.69.227]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id f9VKB8N06603; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:11:08 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9VKDK719001; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9VKAYS00750; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:11:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:10:34 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Message-ID: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: > I know there are plenty of http filters (not necessarily expensive > ones) that would let me sneak through the fascist bank's compatibility > checks. I could even use Internet Explorer from within a VMWare > emulator. That's not the point. The most annoying point, IMHO, is that what the bank has done is totally unneccessary. Sounds like one of their IT guys had a little too much time, probably he's even a relative of Mr Gates, and so he decided to block "those few" non-Windows users out. Funny, isn't it? Seriously: I have seen a few sites that kept complaining that my browser (either Konqueror 2.2.1 or Mozilla 0.9.5) are not supported, but when I told these browsers to disgusie as something else, I mostly noted that the page displayed without any (or only with minor) problems. When some online shop tells me that they won't work with my browser and that I should install a Microsoft product, GREAT, then I'll simply spend my money somewhere else. I always thought that any website (including the that started this thread) has an interest in being compatible with as many systems as possible, thus being accessible for the broadest range of people. But if some website tells me it's not compatible with what I use, then I'll take that as an invitation to leave and go somewhere else. As a customer, *they* depend on me more than I depend on them, I think... Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 13: 2:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E176037B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VL64575805; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:06:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:06:04 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011031220604.B75757@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Walter C. Pelissero [Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 12:36:25PM +0000]: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html Could you explain me why do you think that topic has something to do with FreeBSD? -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 18:58:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E458937B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BE40D786DE; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:28:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:28:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101132850.C51633@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org>; from walter@pelissero.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 12:36:25PM +0000 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 31 October 2001 at 12:36:25 +0000, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html *sigh* Send a written letter to your bank manager, explaining politely that this is a ridiculous requirement. Add a couple of references to the known security holes in Microsoft. Give them two weeks to fix it or you will choose another bank and send the story to the press. I suppose it depends on how much money you have with them as to what their reaction will be, but it could well work. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 31 21:21:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8382637B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04512; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:21:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031221826.050fdae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:20:55 -0700 To: walter@pelissero.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:26 AM 10/31/2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > > Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). > > Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with > > whatever you specify. > >Are suggesting that I should disguise myself to access a service I pay >for? Sounds like freedom of choice is all right as long as you >practice it undercover. In the world of computers and computer networks, there are (alas) so many dolts that one often has no choice. Remember, most such decisions are made by PHBs (pointy-haired bosses), who in turn make them out of fear and ignorance. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. And expect to encounter them, since unless the human race suddenly and dramatically mutates you will encounter them throughout your life. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 1:59:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AEB37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zEcg-000M0m-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:58:54 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zEcp-000Bu0-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:59:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:59:03 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Nils Holland Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net>; from nils@tisys.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:10:34PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zEcg-000M0m-00*$AK$JWuaLoucUqkiknzGDoy9r.* Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a flamewar if we're not careful - if you want to tell me I'm a cretin or send me rude messages, please do so off-list. For the record I'm a 'nix user and developer and have been for about 7 years now. I'm writing this in mutt whilst ssh'ed into a FBSD box from my FBSD laptop. I spend most of my professional life these days writing the tricky stuff on large, complicated, true full-on application-style websites. No, I don't do the HTML, I do the stuff that makes things work. Please, read on if you want to know why I think IE-only compatability is a good thing for the user. On Oct 31, Nils Holland wrote: > Seriously: I have seen a few sites that kept complaining that my browser > (either Konqueror 2.2.1 or Mozilla 0.9.5) are not supported, but when I > told these browsers to disgusie as something else, I mostly noted that the > page displayed without any (or only with minor) problems. When some online Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site admins? Do you honestly think that there are people out there who deliberately close markets and channels and make their site unavailable to you just to annoy you? Your logic is severely flawed. > I always thought that any website (including the that started this thread) > has an interest in being compatible with as many systems as possible, thus > being accessible for the broadest range of people. But if some website > tells me it's not compatible with what I use, then I'll take that as an > invitation to leave and go somewhere else. As a customer, *they* depend on > me more than I depend on them, I think... Great, I hope you do go somewhere else, so I don't have to spend time working out why the hell various things aren't working the way they should be whenever you come to my site, and you don't spend time phoning up support telling them everything is broken, thereby causing me to have to close 50 tickets on a Monday morning. The guy who started this thread complained about Natwest being 'facist' - perhaps they just want to run some Java crypto stuff to further enhance the site's security, in the same way Smile used to. Perhaps they need to track what he is doing, for the security of HIS account, by running a little JS. Perhaps they just want to make sure the site looks the way they expect it to, just to enforce their corporate image. Perhaps they tried to make it compatible with as many browsers as possible, but weren't able to because those browsers hadn't implemented various chunks of functionality. Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. It is nobody's intention to limit markets and get people to go elsewhere. When I put browser compatability checks on sites, it's in the vain effort that some developers somewhere will get a clue and perhaps put some decent javascript support into their browsers - I understand open source software are constrained in this effort, but Netscape should have switched to MS-compatibility a long time ago if they wanted to retain market share. Love or loathe the fact that on low budgets and tight delivery times, I'll always code for MS IE compatability, as that will always guarantee a decent marketshare available to us. So will any other web developer worth his salt. Just please try and understand how a conversation with a client might go: Bank: Why is half the UI functionality that we wanted missing Me: Well, that would have required me to use MS-specific stuff and that would be facist and not allow all users to use the site Bank: Why is the site so slow? Me: Well, because we can't run any Java or even Javascript in there for true open compatability, we have to do everything serverside. That means that the server load is tripled during peak preiods. Unfortunately, because we're trying to serve users over 12 timezones here, every minute of the day is a peak hour for somebody. It's OK - the site will be quicker next week after we spend another half million on hardware upgrades Bank: Wouldn't it just be easier and cheaper to make everything MS-specific Me: Well, yes, obviously, because that's what 98% of your customers currently use, and we could do all sorts of stuff to make things faster and so forth. Bank: So why haven't you done it? Me: Because then the other 2% would complain and winge like bitches that they can't use the site, or when it loads it doesn't work and everything looks broken Bank: Broken? We can't have people seeing our prestigious website broken! Is there any way we can stop them seeing that? Me: Browser compatability check? Sure we could do that.... Bank: Why aren't they using MS software anyway? Me: Bank: So let's summarise - we haven't got the application we wanted, it doesn't work as well as our competitor's, the whole thing is much slower and to rectify that we need more server hardware. We could just make the site IE-only thereby annoying between 1% and 10% of our users, but of those the majority will have access to IE anyway (Windows Netscape users), the whole project becomes cheaper, we get everything we want and so does the user, and we can check what the user is using, and if it's not compatible, we can stop them from seeing a broken website? Me: Yes. Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back in? Me: Yes. Bank: Do all of this, otherwise we don't pay you... Me: OK. In summary - perhaps you and other KDE and Gnome users (including myself) should think of it as being that our software is not good enough for their site rather than their site being too lame for our software... I like it even less than you do, but that's the way of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 3:31:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22AF37B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 03:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-123.wobline.de [212.68.69.131]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1BUjN26493; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:30:45 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1BX3722133; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:33:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1BUSI00929; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:31:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:30:28 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011101121331.A912-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a flamewar > if we're not careful - if you want to tell me I'm a cretin or send me rude > messages, please do so off-list. For the record I'm a 'nix user and > developer and have been for about 7 years now. I'm writing this in mutt > whilst ssh'ed into a FBSD box from my FBSD laptop. I spend most of my > professional life these days writing the tricky stuff on large, complicated, > true full-on application-style websites. No, I don't do the HTML, I do the > stuff that makes things work. Please, read on if you want to know why I > think IE-only compatability is a good thing for the user. ...In the western sky, my kingdom come... > Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was > supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying > functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you > are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site > admins? Do you honestly think that there are people out there who > deliberately close markets and channels and make their site unavailable to > you just to annoy you? Your logic is severely flawed. The exampleabout the bank demonstrated that there are people out there who seem to like to may their site unavailable to close their site to folks like me only to annoy me. So their logic is severely flawed. And furthermore, who says that the software I use cannot run the JavaScript that is needed for the "underlying functionality" of the site? We're not talking about JavaScript problems, but we're talking about scripts which do nothing but "Non-IE browser -> Get outta here". > Great, I hope you do go somewhere else, so I don't have to spend time > working out why the hell various things aren't working the way they should > be whenever you come to my site, and you don't spend time phoning up support > telling them everything is broken, thereby causing me to have to close 50 > tickets on a Monday morning. Nice to hear that your site is so broken, even more nice to hear that you get 50 problem reports through the weekend. FYI, if you want to defend something, you should not make what you defend look more stupid in the end. Doing so is the job of the guy with the different opinion (=me). Nice to see that you're doing my work, though. > The guy who started this thread complained about Natwest being 'facist' - > perhaps they just want to run some Java crypto stuff to further enhance the > site's security, in the same way Smile used to. Perhaps they need to track > what he is doing, for the security of HIS account, by running a little JS. > Perhaps they just want to make sure the site looks the way they expect it > to, just to enforce their corporate image. Perhaps they tried to make it > compatible with as many browsers as possible, but weren't able to because > those browsers hadn't implemented various chunks of functionality. Hmmm, did someone mention seriously flawed logic a few minutes ago? > Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there > entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the > backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you > expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it > to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. It is > nobody's intention to limit markets and get people to go elsewhere. Wait a minute. You say that testing is there for ensuring that things "get displayed where they were intended to be displayed"? That's fine, but then, however, why did the testing in the example that started this thread lead to stuff not being displayed at all on *many* machines (namely non-MS / MAC ones?) > When I put browser compatability checks on sites, it's in the vain effort > that some developers somewhere will get a clue and perhaps put some decent > javascript support into their browsers - I understand open source software > are constrained in this effort, but Netscape should have switched to > MS-compatibility a long time ago if they wanted to retain market share. I wonder if Netscape will be able to use MS's "changes" made to JavaScript as well as other MS technology without paying MS money. MS didn't do what they did for Netscape to become compatible to their technology, but to make Netscape lose the market share you have just mentioned. > Love or loathe the fact that on low budgets and tight delivery times, I'll > always code for MS IE compatability, as that will always guarantee a decent > marketshare available to us. So will any other web developer worth his salt. See, that's where we differ: I use to code for compatibility with all browsers as much as possible, so I'll have a better market share than you. > In summary - perhaps you and other KDE and Gnome users (including myself) > should think of it as being that our software is not good enough for their > site rather than their site being too lame for our software... I like it > even less than you do, but that's the way of the world. If I get some more time, I will come up with the definitive prove that the world is flat. Maybe I can even prove that I know the definite date and time of Jesus' birth. But, in case you didn't notice: Commercial companies need to make much money. Microsoft noted that they can blow up all kinds of standards and force people to use their software. KDE and Gnome create truly open software that is compliant to "real" standards. These non-commercial projects don't need to take use of unfair methods as MS does, and that alone makes the software much better than Microsoft's. And, by the way: If I can believe the original complaint about the bank, then there was not even a technical reason for them to block access of non-MS browsers. They only seemed to have done it for the fun of it. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org DISCLAIMER: This message is not meant to offend anyone. I just like pointing (IMHO) strange logic out whenever I find it... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 8: 7:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DC837B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.208.96]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101160702.SDGD29594.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@columbia>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:07:02 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Paul Robinson" , "Nils Holland" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:04:59 -0500 Message-ID: <00d101c162ee$f53ae260$6600000a@columbia> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Paul Robinson > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:59 AM > To: Nils Holland > Cc: Walter C. Pelissero; Brett Glass; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; > advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > > OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a flamewar > if we're not careful - if you want to tell me I'm a cretin or send me rude > messages, please do so off-list. For the record I'm a 'nix user and > developer and have been for about 7 years now. I'm writing this in mutt > whilst ssh'ed into a FBSD box from my FBSD laptop. I spend most of my > professional life these days writing the tricky stuff on large, > complicated, > true full-on application-style websites. No, I don't do the HTML, I do the > stuff that makes things work. Please, read on if you want to know why I > think IE-only compatability is a good thing for the user. [tirade snipped for brevity] Paul, I've got one simple question for you. You develop on and for Unix platforms, as it says above. Unix platforms have a generally accepted set of standards that those playing the game play by. Now, when it comes to Java, Javascript and all of that hooey (It's a Southern term), who's version do you use? Who produces REAL Java? Sun, the originators of the standard... or Microsoft, the ones that took the standard and perverted it for their own political uses? You raise some interesting issues, but I think that it's quite comical for sites to require MSIE for doing Java work, etc. when Microsoft isn't even producing a Java development package anymore. For those that don't know, Microsoft had to sell J++ and the related items to Rational Software in order to satisfy the judge's ruling in their lawsuit against Sun. Nothing I can say or do is going to change how you go about your business. But, I'll say this much, when you start producing websites that REQUIRE that God-awful Microsoft Passport thing, expect much more of an uproar. --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 8:42:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D7737B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zKux-000Pxr-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:42:11 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zKvC-000CFn-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:42:26 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:42:26 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <00d101c162ee$f53ae260$6600000a@columbia> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00d101c162ee$f53ae260$6600000a@columbia>; from achornback@worldnet.att.net on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:04:59AM -0500 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zKux-000Pxr-00*$AK$W.dG76fvtIRwh7oBRDO651* Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Nov 1, "Andrew C. Hornback" wrote: > [tirade snipped for brevity] Thanks. :-) > Paul, I've got one simple question for you. You develop on and for Unix > platforms, as it says above. Unix platforms have a generally accepted set > of standards that those playing the game play by. Indeed, however some standards, we all must accept for better or for worse, are generic and don't come from a range of individuals from across the industry sat around a table (or mailing list) hammering out the technical merits of each point. One organisation or group or even individual just comes up with it from nowhere. Unavoidable, but should be noted. > Now, when it comes to Java, Javascript and all of that hooey (It's a > Southern term), who's version do you use? Who produces REAL Java? Sun, the > originators of the standard... or Microsoft, the ones that took the standard > and perverted it for their own political uses? That is really a client issue - if the client says that the site will be accessed from MS platforms, and for whatever reason they want to make sure that everything is as compatible as possible out of the box, you have to look to using MS technology. In the case of websites, anybody with a copy of analog looking after a busy mainstream site can see that MS IE is the predominant browser, and as such is the benchmark 'standard' browser you put the most effort into developing the site for. > You raise some interesting issues, but I think that it's quite comical for > sites to require MSIE for doing Java work, etc. when Microsoft isn't even > producing a Java development package anymore. For those that don't know, > Microsoft had to sell J++ and the related items to Rational Software in > order to satisfy the judge's ruling in their lawsuit against Sun. Java is indeed a bad example now. I think my argument went off on a tangent because I can't understand why people don't see what I see. It's great producing W3-standard compliant browsers, and making sure that all your software adopts open standards. Given a free reign, I would want to ensure that this sort of technology was on every desktop in the world. However, right now, it isn't. And faced with that fact the OSS community has two choices: 1. We can whine about MS till the cows come home. We can tell every PHB and user in the land that MS sucks. We can try and convince them to move to an alternative technology, because that technology is what we believe in. We can point out that if you change the way things work both technically and to some extent politically (MS Word Docs should not be the inter-office standard for example), then the world becomes a better place. It might not save them money straight away, and early adopters are running a risk that we're are all talking crap. But that's the way it is. OR 2. We look at our codebase, and the functionality. We decide the best way to move forward is to give the user the same experience on our platforms as on the MS platforms. We work, as a community, to make sure that sites that are 'latest IE only' also look great and work in an identical manner when they are viewed in Mozilla or Konqueror. We then go back to the users and PHBs and say 'look, it's all effectively identical, plus TCO is lower, licensing is more liberal, and it's all infinitely extendible due to the fact we have the source' Question: Which approach is going to get the most users? Which approach is going to convince the PHB and the users that open technology is the way to go? The long term goal should be about technical excellence, and everything that is done now should be done to the best standard we can adopt, however we also need users and PHBs to not be intimidated when they come to evaluate our 'product'. Take an example of a new user who wants to do a bit of typing up on their machine, print some documents out, and perhaps send a few e-mails. Given a PC a slight clue and an hour, and they're most likely to going to start getting the hang of the basics. At the moment, with FreeBSD we hand them a copy of the Handbook and ask 'So, first off - what do you know about disklabel?' - User Experience is all, and the OSS community has to begin to accept that to gain mass acceptance. Without mass acceptance, nobody listens to the politcal or legal cries we make. In the end, to compete with MS, you have to start by mimicking them to a certain extent. I don't think I'm saying anything new here, but at least my argument is clearer now than it may have been before. > Nothing I can say or do is going to change how you go about your business. > But, I'll say this much, when you start producing websites that REQUIRE that > God-awful Microsoft Passport thing, expect much more of an uproar. Passport is a politcal issue more than a technical issue. If we wanted, we could all sit down now and work out an open, secure, distributed, peer-to-peer style Passport 'mimic'. However, how many mainstream sites would adopt it? At the moment, virtually none. What if we put support into Mozilla? OK, people are starting to get slightly interested, but even with Netscape's blessing it's not going to go far. What if we say 'look, this is almost identical to IE in every way, except it's better, because...' and we then go out on a mass 'marketing drive'. At that point, we start making inroads. We at least get to the point where companies will look to support both systems. And that's when we can advance by being more innovative than the competitor. It all comes back to User Experience, and if the User is happy with IE, it's going to take a lot to convince them to change. Even the VBS worms didn't make a sizeable dent in the number of users using Outlook for mail. Right, enough rambling. I hope my argument is a little clearer now than it was this morning (local time for me). Should turn into an interesting argument, this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 8:45:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn182-40.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.40.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE7137B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fA1GiIN39765; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:44:18 GMT (envelope-from wcp) Message-ID: <15329.31713.864514.24367@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:44:17 +0000 From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Robinson writes: > OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a > flamewar if we're not careful I haven't noticed any hint of flamewar yet. Well, until your message. > No, I don't do the HTML, I do the stuff that makes things > work. I've seen several beautiful pages written in plain HTML. Anyway I wouldn't put down HTML that much. It sounds like I don't move on wheels because I drive a car. Even you are dealing mainly with dynamic HTML, it's HTML nevertheless. > Please, read on if you want to know why I think IE-only > compatability is a good thing for the user. Sorry, you didn't convince me. Go on reading, I'm going to explain you why. > Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java > that was supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the > underlying functionality of the site going, and that because you're > not running it, you are going to cause problems for yourself, and > potentially for the site admins? Beside that a Fat Client is a questionable design choice that we are not here to discuss, the bank site used to work flawlessly with my browser. THIS is the same browser that is installed on a Win box. According to the JavaScript code the discrimination is not on the browser (not only), but on the OS. Which in my opinion is nonsense. > Do you honestly think that there are people out there who > deliberately close markets and channels and make their site > unavailable to you just to annoy you? I think there are people who belive that the solution to their problems is to hide them. I just try to guess. The problem might have been that the bank employed bad programmers who couldn't write web pages without resorting to "unportable" code. Instead of solving the problem (firing the programmers), they preferred to cut off the possible troublesome customers. Instead of cutting on help line calls they increased them, leading eventually to the disaffection of some customers. > Great, I hope you do go somewhere else, so I don't have to spend > time working out why the hell various things aren't working the way > they should be whenever you come to my site, and you don't spend > time phoning up support telling them everything is broken, thereby > causing me to have to close 50 tickets on a Monday morning. I belive you should better be interested to know why your code is broken instead of labeling those who don't have your system/browser/setup as uninteresting visitors. You might end up wondering why nobody is visiting your pages. > The guy who started this thread complained about Natwest being > 'facist' The guy who started this thread complained about NatWest enforcing "faScist" compatibility tests. > perhaps they just want to run some Java crypto stuff to > further enhance the site's security, in the same way Smile used > to. This is not a source of incompatibilities. I've been working on this kind of problems myself. I can tell you, Netscape's Java Virtual Machine is equally broken on Windows as well as on Unix/Linux/FreeBSD. > Perhaps they need to track what he is doing, for the security > of HIS account, by running a little JS. What I am doing?? This is interesting. Could you please elaborate on it? > Perhaps they just want to make sure the site looks the way they > expect it to, just to enforce their corporate image. That's what CSS are for. Is this not enough? Do you mean something more sophisticated, like checking if I have all the necessary fonts and my screen visual depth (number of colors) is good enough? Yeah, this HTML is difficult to tame if you want to get to pixel manipulation. Anyway, what difference would make a FreeBSD over a Windows in this regard? > Perhaps they tried to make it compatible with as many browsers as > possible, but weren't able to because those browsers hadn't > implemented various chunks of functionality. Are you meaning the chunks of functionality you don't find in Netscape 4.76 for FreeBSD and you find in Netscape 4.76 for Windows? Which ones? Or you mean the chunks of functionality I've been using for almost two years on my FreeBSD box to access the bank web site without a problem? > Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not > there entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like > us, on the backend. I belive browsers compatibility testing is there only to save the ass of clumsy programmers who succeeded to convince their boss (or PHB) it's not their fault if things are screwed up, and to let Microsoft zealots make a living with the few concepts they have picked up from the "Web for Dummies" book they have skimmed through. No offense meant. > It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you > expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you > expect it to behave. While, I'm still looking forward to see a list of discrepancies between NS 4.76/FreeBSD and NS 4.76/Windows that could invalidate a seriously written code, I don't understand why the user shouldn't be let in and find by him/herself whether his/her browser works or not. > Netscape should have switched to MS-compatibility a long time ago > if they wanted to retain market share. You mean they should have switched to MS-compatibility when Microsoft had still to join the Web and Bill Gates was preaching against it? While at this I would suggest even W3C to leave alone all that stupid standardization efforts and let Microsoft decide for them. Hopefully Nike is not coming up with a one-sleeved t-shirt because, otherwise you would have to chop away one arm. I'm afraid, your statement is supporting Microsoft's EEE (Embrace, Extend and Extinguish) approach to things. The market leader doesn't necessarily have the best product. I belive you agree since you are using FreeBSD and not XP. > Love or loathe the fact that on low budgets and tight delivery > times, I'll always code for MS IE compatability, as that will > always guarantee a decent marketshare available to us. So will any > other web developer worth his salt. That's your choice, fair enough. I find personally easier to keep myself to a common denominator and don't bind myself to some exotic and unnecessary proprietary technology that is not standard even for the owner itself and it's meant to keep changing just to introduce incompatibilities and market fragmentation. This means I wouldn't chose to support a Netscape extension either. (Remember the EEE.) In the long run it pays. > Just please try and understand how a conversation with a client > might go: You just explained that people should switch to IE to help you get along with your boss/customer. I personally don't care and I don't see a strong relation to the OS ban in NatWest's page. > In summary - perhaps you and other KDE and Gnome users (including > myself) should think of it as being that our software is not good > enough for their site rather than their site being too lame for our > software... I don't use KDE neither Gnome and I don't think they would be related to the NatWest issue. I certainly don't belive that "our software" is not good enough since Netscape for FreeBSD is basically the same that runs on Windows. Isn't it? > I like it even less than you do, but that's the way of the world. I don't think the world would look a better place just keeping in mind cheap philosophical considerations. Fortunately you just explained your point of view, not "the way of the world". -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 11:10:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1240E37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-222.wobline.de [212.68.69.233]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1J9vN11867; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:09:58 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1JCJ723471; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:12:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1JAKI02959; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:10:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:10:20 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > Take an example of a new user who wants to do a bit of typing up on their > machine, print some documents out, and perhaps send a few e-mails. Given a > PC a slight clue and an hour, and they're most likely to going to start > getting the hang of the basics. At the moment, with FreeBSD we hand them a > copy of the Handbook and ask 'So, first off - what do you know about > disklabel?' - User Experience is all, and the OSS community has to begin to > accept that to gain mass acceptance. Without mass acceptance, nobody listens > to the politcal or legal cries we make. Well, this thread has somehow moved at least a bit away from what originally started it. So, I guess what I'm going to say about the above text by Paul will bring it even further away, but, nevertheless I'll do it: Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? FreeBSD, even with a "nice" KDE desktop, is not for everyone, neither should it be for everyone! Have a look at my mother for example: She's using Windows, and it took her quite a long time to even learn to use Word. Learning how to properly use Outlook and Internet Explorer took her about as long as it took me to learn C. Taking that into account, it would probably be a bad idea to "force" my mother or any other "normal" PC user to use something like FreeBSD. Now, what should we do? Should we turn FreeBSD into something that's about the same as Windows - just stupid point-and-click? Hell, no! FreeBSD is obviously designed for more advances users and purposes. It's entirely fine that way - we are not Microsoft, and so we don't need to come up with mean ideas to force people to use FreeBSD. We leave people the free choice to do it, and the way I see it, there are quite a lot of people out there - both advanced hobbyists, programmers, professional users and so on, who'd like to get their fingers on something more fexible, read: FreeBSD. It's the goal of the FreeBSD Project to make that possible - the goal is *not* to produce a point-and-click-even-my-hamster-can-use-it operating system. That's perfectly right. You can look at any other product category out there and you will find products specially made for "normal" home users, and other products made for the pros. I would really say that our operating system *is* not for everybody. But that's by design and nothing we have to worry about. It's intended to be that way. Every user is free to obtain and use FreeBSD, but they must be willing to learn. The more flexible, complex and powerful something is, the more one has to learn about it. Again, this is not only so in the field of computer operating systems. However, we were originally talking about standards. Let's come back to that. I guess there are official W3C standards and similar things that allow web developers to do about anything that's really neccessary to produce a great (and useful) online experience. Microsoft has, as is proven, tried to "mess up" these standars and produced new standards that make little sense (Active X). The goal of all that was only to make it harder for competitors to stay compatible. Users and programmers have realized that by now, and it's only a matter of time how long they will continue to play the game by the MS rules. After all, I guess there's nothing in the computer industry that all kinds of people hate as much as Microsoft (or is there?). Currently, people still play the game the way MS wants to because MS is virtually in control of these people and the industry as a whole. This is most likely going to change rather sooner than later, and then MS will only be a normal company like anyone else. I can't predict that for sure, however, I think that it will eventually happen. Let's look back again: I think this thread was started because some bank rejected access to their site for non-MS systems for no technical reasons. What has been said in this thread today has very little to do with that basic and simple fact. I guess we let ourselves get carried away quite a little. However, it was still funny ;-) Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 11:53:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671E737B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14495; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:52:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:52:49 -0700 To: Paul Robinson , Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:59 AM 11/1/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: >Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was >supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying >functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you >are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site >admins? I have the right to choose what runs and does not run on my machine. I generally turn off Java and JavaScript because both are usually used to add needless and wasteful flash to Websites at the expense of worthwhile content. >Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there >entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the >backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you >expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it >to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. Java and JavaScript are both so unreliable and insecure that it is very important, in banking applications, NOT to use either. --Brett GLass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 12:20: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4325C37B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14903; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:19:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101131856.04a4b960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:19:23 -0700 To: Nils Holland , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , In-Reply-To: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? Yes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 12:35: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net (we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net [24.126.55.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A38337B403 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix.homeip.net (vmzsxe@unix.homeip.net [24.126.55.112]) by we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1KbX970753; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:37:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bear@unix.homeip.net) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:37:33 -0800 (PST) From: Joey Garcia X-X-Sender: bear@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Michael Lucas , Subject: Re: Demin FreeBSD shirts? In-Reply-To: <001801c1618f$f726fe70$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> Message-ID: <20011101123313.R70671-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > Delay vs a shirt you can't wear or looks bad because it's too small, I'll > take the delay. :) My biggest problem is shirts that fit okay the first day you wear them, but then it's a different story after you wash them. I've bought only one shirt from Thinkgeek, and I've been pretty happy with it. It didn't shrink too much. Also, what sucks is when they make the shirts crazy big, like when the sleeves hang down to your forearms. I have a few shirts like that, which I have to roll up the sleeves. *sigh* Joey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 12:55:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88C137B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-219.wobline.de [212.68.69.230]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1KtLN20416; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:55:21 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1Kvi723973; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:57:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1KsmC28529; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:55:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:54:48 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101131856.04a4b960@localhost> Message-ID: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd > >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? > > Yes. I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short and precise answers... Seriously: How do you imagine it? Throw out the shell and make a GUI only thing? Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? I'm not saying that X or KDE should not be used, but, as is well known, all GUIs mainly harm flexibility of a system. FreeBSD is here to be used by anyone out there who wants to - but I don't think that we should start producing "point-and-click-only" just because that's obviously easier for the masses (which included a whole lot of not very experienced users) to use. The masses can surely come to FreeBSD, but we really shouldn't trade flexibility and power to make our system attractive to them. My original statement may have sounded a little strange, but I still think that we're dealing with an operating system for a more advanced class of computer users. Everyone can join that advanced class at their free will. But no one can expect icons and strange comic-creatures in animated widnows telling them how to use the disklabel command (yes, this is a reference to this strange help system introduced by MS in Office 97 and up). Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 13:56:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F9837B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 24C9517BE7; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0D515D08; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:56:40 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Nils Holland wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > > > >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd > > >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? > > > > Yes. > > I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short > and precise answers... > > Seriously: How do you imagine it? Throw out the shell and make a GUI only > thing? Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type > something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? I'm not saying that X or KDE > should not be used, but, as is well known, all GUIs mainly harm > flexibility of a system. How does adding a GUI hurt the flexability of a UNIX-alike? Running X - or Aqua - doesn't magically mean I can't type find . \! -newer report.tex -print, does it? I hope not, because I've done thjings like that on MacOSX boxen. Constraining the user to require that everything be done through a GUI hurts the flexibility of a system, sure. Has anyone suggested that's the right course of action? > My original statement may have sounded a little strange, but I still think > that we're dealing with an operating system for a more advanced class of > computer users. Everyone can join that advanced class at their free will. You seem to think that computer operating systems are either arcane and difficult to use, or are for drooling morons. This seems to be the case, with extant systems, but there's no reason, other than few people have put the effort into it, that you can't have a system that retains all of the power and flexibility of a soemthing like UNIX, but which also has a nice, useful GUI. Apple, and NeXT before them, have done a decent job of building such a system. There not there yet, but they're getting closer. I'm not sure I'd have beleived someone five years ago that tol me my mother (who has called me to ask how to use the VCR) would be able to install a UNIX box from scratch. She's done that now, wtih OSX. There's no technical reason others can't do things like this as well. > But no one can expect icons and strange comic-creatures in animated > widnows telling them how to use the disklabel command (yes, this is a > reference to this strange help system introduced by MS in Office 97 and > up). > Why should you need to use the disklabel command at all, unless you want to do something unusual with the disk? Shouldn't I be able to attach the disk, have a volume daemon see it, ask if I'd like to add it, and give me options to set it up in two or three common (or site specific) manners? Sure the pretty gui may well be running disklabel and friends behind my back, but what do I care? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 14: 4:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp002pub.verizon.net (smtp002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD30037B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp002pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fA1M4Hn11627 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41660; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:04:15 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Robinson , Nils Holland , "Walter C. Pelissero" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101140415.B41247@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 12:52:49PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In a way, I wish MS would make up some incompatible non-open (browser alternative) product and take the MS-loving clone-people away from the internet entirely. As long as I'm wishing, maybe they could take Word with them too. If people stopped trying to duct tape everything imaginable to browsers, that wouldn't hurt my feelings either. (When was the internet redefine to mean that everything has to be crammed into the http protocol?) When did people get lazy and start thinking that they could write workable software without having to port it to each platform they expected it to run on? I often think this is a much bigger issue than the OS/GNU/CS debate. Any good quality open source OS, when supplied with a working compiler, can take you to the edge of your abilities as a (new) programmer.(?) The OS is not going to let you down. And once you've advanced far enough as a programmer that you start to find deficiencies, you can go look into the source and see if there is anything you can do to help.(?) What can we do to make this even more true? Do other people even value FreeBSD for this reason? When Sun took their set-top box language, and tried to force a paradigm shift, what did they accomplish, if anything? Is Java the next Navigator? Are C, C++, and Perl the only languages to worth bothering with in the long term? Thanks, [RC] On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 12:52:49PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:59 AM 11/1/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > > >Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was > >supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying > >functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you > >are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site > >admins? > > I have the right to choose what runs and does not run on my machine. I > generally turn off Java and JavaScript because both are usually > used to add needless and wasteful flash to Websites at the expense > of worthwhile content. > > >Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there > >entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the > >backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you > >expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it > >to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. > > Java and JavaScript are both so unreliable and insecure that it is > very important, in banking applications, NOT to use either. > > --Brett GLass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 14:28:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4225A37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CF4BCAA; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19718; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:23 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA1MQpC53422; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:26:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nils Holland Cc: , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Nov 2001 14:26:50 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Message-ID: Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland writes: > Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd > really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? FreeBSD, even with > a "nice" KDE desktop, is not for everyone, neither should it be for > everyone! So put it into words. Who should it be for? Geniuses who think like computers and those who like to spend days configuring (and learning about) things which M$ and Apple users can configure in a few minutes or seconds (and often needn't bother to learn about at all)? Why shouldn't it be for "the rest of us", who would like to learn and do other things? Of course, the first instinct is that it should be for the people who develop and support it. But I doubt that is a good plan. More later. I think "mass acceptance" would be a worthy goal, not inconsistent with "good OS" (good community, good app devel env, good server, etc), but I recognize that FreeBSD developers have more important things to work on. But any OS does need to worry about who is going to accept the OS and consider that when making design decisions. "Mass" is going to far, but "FreeBSD developers and server administrators" is not going far enough if the OS is going to avoid a slide into oblivion, especially as good-enough-and-less-time-consuming alternatives become available. An OS has to have users to survive; I suspect that most developers do so partly to improve their use of the OS. If there were few users, only a very few developers would have the incentive to develop, even those who do it mostly for ego/enjoyment. Free OSes would have many more users AND developers, and would be a much better OS to use, if developers had devoted a lot of thought to usability and development teamwork instead of adding thousands of little-needed programs and command options. Of course, they should have the freedom to do what they want. I'm just saying that they should want to make an OS that is quick to learn and easy to use. Otherwise, if they don't develop such an OS, too many people will be jumping ship and the future will be short, as commercial OSes, after all these years, finally mature to the good-enough performance level, while retaining and improving their usability features. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 14:29: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE63C37B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4631; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:28:41 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland wrote: > The masses can surely come to FreeBSD, but we really shouldn't trade > flexibility and power to make our system attractive to them. I couldn't have said it better myself. But it's odd that you said it in the middle of your post arguing that FreeBSD should not have mass acceptance. You err when you equate "mass acceptance" with "point-and-click-only". We CAN have mass acceptance while keeping all our flexibility and power. The two things holding FreeBSD (and other Unix-like systems) back from "mass" acceptance are installation/administration, manufacturer support, and application base. We can't fix the latter two directly, but they will solve themselves in time. But the first is very close to being resolved right now! The main problem with the installer and admin tools is that the "mass" public perceives them as difficult. But they are not difficult. Other than the initial kernel config screen, the installer is very straight forward, well documented, and streamlined. It could use some polishing on spots, but by and large it is much more usable than the Mandrake or SuSE installers. It would be very hard to make it any easier without taking away the flexibility. Instead of trying to put sugar in the medicine, perhaps we should be educating the patient that medicine tastes bad but is good for you. Administering a system is not easy, and no matter how much GUI fluff you throw on top of it, it will never be easy. But it is not difficult, especially for single-user desktop systems. We should be forthright and admit that administering FreeBSD is not easy. We don't have to win over every single user in order to have "mass acceptance". Frankly, we don't need those users who won't bother expending enough effort to lift their fingers off the mouse. They may be the Microsoft target audience, and they may represent the editorial staffs of ZDNet and C|NET, but they aren't the majority. That is not to say that we should shun the GUI. I think a sysinstall module for KDE would be awesome! But we don't have to be an all-or-nothing OS. We don't have to be a GUI-only system like what many Linux distros are trying to be. But neither do we have to be the CLI only system that everyone thinks we are. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 15: 8:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE6837B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-141.wobline.de [212.68.69.149]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1N82N30111; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:08:02 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NAN724491; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:10:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1N7mI54169; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:08:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:07:48 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101235550.R54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Nov 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > So put it into words. Who should it be for? Geniuses who think like > computers and those who like to spend days configuring (and learning > about) things which M$ and Apple users can configure in a few minutes or > seconds (and often needn't bother to learn about at all)? Why shouldn't > it be for "the rest of us", who would like to learn and do other things? It should be for users who would like to learn. As I have said, FreeBSD is a really flexible operating system which virtually has no limits when it comes to do things. Windows is limited only so far as the icons take you. The difference is this: Microsoft shoves everything up the users a**, trying to make their software (supposedly) as easy as possible to use. However, it's still true that if you build a fool-proof system, only fools will want to use it. The challenge we are probably facing is *not* creating animated paper clips that seem to assume that all users are stupid. The challenge we are facing is creating something that is very flexible and free to be used by anyone who wants to use it. FreeBSD can be very easy to use even for beginners when you install X and KDE / Gnome, but users will just have to accept that they will have to do at least a bit of learning if they want to get their hooks on advanced features. That's just the way it is. Mass aceptance can be achieved in two ways: Either copy what the mass uses today and try to make them use your copy (seems that Microsoft likes that method), or make the masses aware what we have to offer. The second is the better method, IMHO. In my local area, I have introduced quite a few people who were disappointed with their (Windows) system to FreeBSD. What seemed hard to understand for them at first quickly became something they love. Indeed, we *have* to offer something that is significantly different (and better) than Windows, because if we would simply produce a copy of Windows - well, then why should people want to use our software anyway? Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 15:40:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DF737B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-179.wobline.de [212.68.69.187]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1NdxN31840; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:39:59 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NgN724608; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:42:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NePI54207; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:40:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:40:25 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: David Johnson Cc: Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> Message-ID: <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, David Johnson wrote: > > The masses can surely come to FreeBSD, but we really shouldn't trade > > flexibility and power to make our system attractive to them. > > I couldn't have said it better myself. But it's odd that you said it in > the middle of your post arguing that FreeBSD should not have mass > acceptance. You err when you equate "mass acceptance" with > "point-and-click-only". It *should* have mass acceptance! If what I said previously sounded different, then it was definately not what I wanted to say. Sorry, it's very late here already ;-) I basically only wanted to say that we do not need to copy Microsoft or anyone else, but instead *get the word out* wbout what we have to offer. > The main problem with the installer and admin tools is that the "mass" > public perceives them as difficult. But they are not difficult. Other > than the initial kernel config screen, the installer is very straight > forward, well documented, and streamlined. It could use some polishing > on spots, but by and large it is much more usable than the Mandrake or > SuSE installers. It would be very hard to make it any easier without > taking away the flexibility. I recently tested the FreeBSD installer on my brother. I let him sit in front of a computer, handed him a FreeBSD CD and told him to try to set it up. He had no previous FreeBSD / Unix experience, but he had s rather good overall understanding of computers. As I observed, he managed to install FreeBSD just fine. It did of course take longer than if someone who had used FreeBSD for years had done it, but it worked in the end. In the end, my brother said that he didn't find the FreeBSD installer much harder to use than the Windows 98 setup, and he specifically said he liked the flexibility of the installer and the complete control over the setup he had. I guess there are people for whom the FreeBSD install process is too hard, but for these people installing Windows would be too hard as well (yes, I have seen such people...) However, I would like to claim that a user who can install Windows can install FreeBSD as well. > Instead of trying to put sugar in the medicine, perhaps we should be > educating the patient that medicine tastes bad but is good for you. > Administering a system is not easy, and no matter how much GUI fluff you > throw on top of it, it will never be easy. But it is not difficult, > especially for single-user desktop systems. We should be forthright and > admit that administering FreeBSD is not easy. We don't have to win over > every single user in order to have "mass acceptance". Frankly, we don't > need those users who won't bother expending enough effort to lift their > fingers off the mouse. They may be the Microsoft target audience, and > they may represent the editorial staffs of ZDNet and C|NET, but they > aren't the majority. I really agree once again! That's exactly what I have been trying to say, but seemingly didn't manage to do too well. In order to accept mass acceptance, we need to educate the masses. It works: At my school, I taught fellow students about *nix computer systems, taking FreeBSD as an example because it's what I use. In the beginning, the students (most of which used their computers only to play games) seemed a little confused. But it didn't take me long to convince them that they are about to aquire freedom! In the end, most of them started to like FreeBSD's flexibility, so that they wanted to me to give them a copy for their home computer. As someone who is known to "be into" computers in my area, I have often helped people and even companies with their problems, and wherever possible, I advocated FreeBSD, often successfully. *THAT* is probably what we FreeBSD users have to do, and that's the only way how we can gain mass acceptance. There will always be people who do not want to use FreeBSD, but if it weren't that way, something would be wrong. > That is not to say that we should shun the GUI. I think a sysinstall > module for KDE would be awesome! But we don't have to be an > all-or-nothing OS. We don't have to be a GUI-only system like what many > Linux distros are trying to be. But neither do we have to be the CLI > only system that everyone thinks we are. I guess the point can be summed up as this. Let's say (which is even probably true) there are three ways of doing things: commands (shell), text-based menu systems (sysinstall) and GUIs (X11/KDE). Microsoft seems to think that a GUI is the only thing their users can handle, and so the only thing they give their users *is* a GUI. Linux distros seem - at least to a certain extend - start to think the same way. For FreeBSD, I think the way to go is extremely simple: Offer support for *all* the possible ways! That means: Things should as far as possible be performable by *shell* and *GUI*. That's just what I mean with flexibility. I want a system that I can fully operate only by entering commands in text-mode, and I want a system that can be operated using a GUI. Ideally, I would like this system to be freely available. All of this added together *is* basically what FreeBSD stands for today: I tend to work at the console in text mode most of the time (using pine right now), but I could use the *SAME* operating system to set up our family computer with a nice graphical desktop (KDE) so that the rest of the family can use it. That's just what I call flexibility, and that's what makes FreeBSD as good as it is today. It's this flexibility, the right (and possibility) to choose that is IMHO the best thing we have to gain mass acceptance. We cannot take over the TV stations and broadcast our ads, just as Microsoft has done for the WinXP release. We can, however, advocate the use of FreeBSD. We cannot run advertising on TV, but personally recommending an operating system to local people or people on the Internet and personally helping these peoples with their questions and possibly problems is something that we can do. And by doing that, our system will definately become more and more known among the public. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 15:41:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E5537B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18455; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:40:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101163902.043e2db0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:40:43 -0700 To: Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , In-Reply-To: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101131856.04a4b960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:54 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short >and precise answers... Sorry, but you asked a "yes or no" question. That left two possible answers. ;-) >Seriously: How do you imagine it? Throw out the shell and make a GUI only >thing? Why? Even Apple, king of GUIs for naive users, didn't do that. >Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type >something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? Where you HAVE to type it? No. Where you CAN type it? Sure. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 15:50:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48E4A37B40B for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 35705 invoked by uid 100); 1 Nov 2001 23:50:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15329.57300.97759.672170@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:50:44 -0600 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Robinson types: [Major Snip] > Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back > in? > > Paul: Yes. > > Bank: Do all of this, otherwise we don't pay you... > > Paul: OK. And later... Bank: Why are we being sued by The National Federation for the Blind? Me: Because in forcing users to get IE-compatible browsers, we made our web site inaccessible to everyone who was blind. AOL has already settled with the NFB out of court, and now has a blind-accessible site. The US has ruled that the ADA applies to any site is in any way federally funded. The question of whether or not it applies to a commercial site like a bank is still open, and hinges on whether or not a commercial web site is a "public place of business" as defined by the ADA. And yes, none of this is relevant if you aren't in the US. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 15:53:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560BA37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA7BC; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:53:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1E08E.88E78956@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:53:50 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland wrote: > It *should* have mass acceptance! If what I said previously sounded > different, then it was definately not what I wanted to say. Sorry, it's > very late here already ;-) I basically only wanted to say that we do not > need to copy Microsoft or anyone else, but instead *get the word out* > wbout what we have to offer. I apologize for misunderstanding you. The result of either too much candy or too little beer :-) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 15:58:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56B937B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-213.wobline.de [212.68.69.224]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1NwUN32663; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:58:30 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA200r724709; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:00:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NwLI54344; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:58:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:58:21 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101163902.043e2db0@localhost> Message-ID: <20011102004644.I54336-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short > >and precise answers... > > Sorry, but you asked a "yes or no" question. That left two possible > answers. ;-) That reminds me of the Enlish lessons at school. When asked a question by the teacher, you may not simply respond with "yes" or "no", but you have to say somthing like "yes, I am" or "no, I'm not". Hmm, wait, I guess this is off topic - I always tend to let myself get carried away when writing eMails at 0:48... Now, where were we? > >Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type > >something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? > > Where you HAVE to type it? No. Where you CAN type it? Sure. Hmm, seems sane. Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say. The *CAN* makes the difference. On MS OSes, you can do most (all?) things only by clicking. Here, on *nix systems, you have the choice if you want to type or click. That's just fine. It's a form of freedom, and it makes the system much more flexible. The stuff I wrote before probably sounded so strange because I always tend to fear that when someone talks about mass acceptance, the motivation behind saying that is trying to turn the operating system being talked about (in this case, FreeBSD) into some Windows clone. I really wouldn't want that. Just as I wouldn't want a system where I am forced to type, I wouldn't want a system where I am forced to click either. I want a system that allows me to do both, and I think I have that system and am using it right now. Of course, spreading the word about FreeBSD is good. Taking new user's feedback into account when it comes to the system design cannot hurt either, as long as the needs of experienced users are not influenced in a bad way. Unix systems have long been known for their flexibility, and I believe that it's that flexibility that destinguishes us from the "king in the field", and that is our most powerful weapon. As I have said in a message sent about three minutes ago, it's a bad idea to sit just hear and argue about "mass acceptance" or banks that block access to their site (although these discussions tend to be funny sometimes). It's a better idea to make the public aware of what we have to offer - only that can boost our popularity. Enough for today. I hope that I have been able to sort out the things I have said which lead to a little protest earlier. If not, I'll be back to reply to your mails after about 8 hours of sleep -> shutdown -h now Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 16:37:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (catflap.bishopston.net [24.67.101.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E0237B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA29624; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:37:33 GMT (envelope-from ) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:37:33 GMT From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200111020037.AAA29624@bishopston.net> To: walter@pelissero.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Walter Pelissero wrote: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html "My bank promised online internet access to my account. Then what happened ? ...... You guessed it.... My bank now requires... A TRENDY BROWSER [ ha ha ha ha ha ]" (Apologies to those outside the UK, or those without a TV) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 17:14:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (catflap.bishopston.net [24.67.101.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D06637B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28852; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:14:08 GMT (envelope-from ) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:14:08 GMT From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200111020114.BAA28852@bishopston.net> To: achornback@worldnet.att.net, paul@akita.co.uk Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nils@tisys.org In-Reply-To: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul wrote: [ 8< ] > That is really a client issue - if the client says that the site will be > accessed from MS platforms, and for whatever reason they want to make sure > that everything is as compatible as possible out of the box, you have to > look to using MS technology. In the case of websites, anybody with a copy of > analog looking after a busy mainstream site can see that MS IE is the > predominant browser, and as such is the benchmark 'standard' browser you put > the most effort into developing the site for. [ 8< ] Isn't it the responsibility of the designer to explain that all browsers should work, when the code is clean ? Not directed personally at you, but I've seen loads of sites that "only" work in IE not because of extra "MS features" but simply because their HTML etc. is wrong. Often this is due to badly designed "HTML editors", and although I'm not knocking people with no technical knowledge using them to put up a web page, I feel that any acceptance of this by people who should know better will only allow the situation to get worse.. If people realised their HTML editor was not producing valid results for some people, it may persuade them to use another editor, or for the company concerned to clean up their editor somewhat. None of this requires the "man in the street" to get technically savvy, but maybe we can gently remove some of his ignorance. Anyway, as you no doubt know, Microsoft recently blocked many browsers from its MSN portal.. There was a big fuss made, and Microsoft backed down, so maybe the users of non-IE have a bigger voice than you think ? As CNET reports: | Despite Microsoft critics' suspicion about the reason behind the | browser lockout--and its timing--the incident had an unintended | consequence: It became a selling point for competing browsers. | The dispute made headlines in newspapers around the world and was | covered by Web sites in multiple languages with links to competing | browsers, resulting in a torrent of new customers for the smaller | companies. Full report here: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7739670.html?tag=tp_pr Regards, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 18: 3:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6074E37B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1FEEC.BA90E726@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:03:24 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Jones Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <200111020114.BAA28852@bishopston.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jamie Jones wrote: > Isn't it the responsibility of the designer to explain that all browsers > should work, when the code is clean ? > ... > None of this requires the "man in the street" to get technically savvy, > but maybe we can gently remove some of his ignorance. The businessman needs to get technically savvy. People who sell automobiles know about automobiles. People who sell books know about books. People who sell beer know about beer. It's time that people who sell computers, software, or information services know about computers, software and information services. It is unreasonable for a company to support every single operating system in existance. But it is reasonable that they support standards. A banking site that uses standard HTML and standard CGI interfaces is going to be accessible by any browser from IExplorer on down to Lynx. The best solution to these types of problems is to take your business elsewhere, -and- let them know why. Politely of course. Don't just tell the webmaster. Tell the bank president. They won't hurt from this lost revenue, but eventually they'll figure out that bank presidents shouldn't be taking orders from their webmasters. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 18: 8:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2134B37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20564; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:07:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:07:33 -0700 To: Jamie Jones , achornback@worldnet.att.net, paul@akita.co.uk From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nils@tisys.org In-Reply-To: <200111020114.BAA28852@bishopston.net> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:14 PM 11/1/2001, Jamie Jones wrote: >Anyway, as you no doubt know, Microsoft recently blocked many browsers >from its MSN portal.. There was a big fuss made, and Microsoft backed >down, No, it actually did NOT back down. With some alternative browsers, such as Opera, you can access some of the pages but not others. And with a text-based browser, you still can't get in at all. This is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 18:35:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E4B3C37B40A for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 40201 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 02:35:26 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:35:26 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 06:14 PM 11/1/2001, Jamie Jones wrote: > >Anyway, as you no doubt know, Microsoft recently blocked many browsers > >from its MSN portal.. There was a big fuss made, and Microsoft backed > >down, > No, it actually did NOT back down. With some alternative browsers, such > as Opera, you can access some of the pages but not others. And with > a text-based browser, you still can't get in at all. This is a violation > of the Americans with Disabilities Act. That isn't clear for two reasons. #1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. It *does* apply to all web sites run with public funds. As I noted elsewhere, the argument hinges on whether or not a web site is a "public place of business" as defined by the act. #2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. If those are sufficient to allow all disabled people to access the web site, then they satisfy the act. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 19: 0:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from chris.class.com (chris.class.com [207.91.36.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DB437B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cjackson@localhost) by chris.class.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA230a982640; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:00:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cjackson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:00:36 -0600 From: Chris To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101210036.A82610@class.com> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:35:26PM -0600 X-Whaa: You read headers? X-Operating-System: FreeBSD chris.class.com 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:35:26PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > That isn't clear for two reasons. > > #1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial > web sites. It *does* apply to all web sites run with public funds. > As I noted elsewhere, the argument hinges on whether or not a web site > is a "public place of business" as defined by the act. > > #2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. If those are > sufficient to allow all disabled people to access the web site, > then they satisfy the act. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. I think that this will be addressed in the near future, and will require commercial sites to comply with ADA. Consider that restaurants are required to be in compliance, and they aren't the recipient of any government disbursed funds... Either ADA will be modified to mollify its opponents, or websites will start being targeted for non-compliance more frequently. -- Chris Jackson Network Administrator class.com "A man, a plan, a canal, panama." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 21:35:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D0937B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22669; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:33:27 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:35 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >#1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial > web sites. It applies to all "public accommodations." >#2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. Doesn't matter. You can't require a disabled person to have a particular kind of car, or a wheelchair rather than a walker, etc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 22: 7:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952F237B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA267QT75370; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nils Holland" , "Paul Robinson" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:07:26 -0800 Message-ID: <003201c16364$a52920e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Nils Holland >Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:10 AM >Let's look back again: I think this thread was started because some bank >rejected access to their site for non-MS systems for no technical reasons. >What has been said in this thread today has very little to do with that >basic and simple fact. I guess we let ourselves get carried away quite a >little. However, it was still funny ;-) Nils, don't spoil the fun with a bit of sense now! ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 22:27:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A228F37B405 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 45674 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 06:27:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:27:06 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 07:35 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >#1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial > > web sites. > It applies to all "public accommodations." The ADA actually applies to "physical places of public accomodation". In Hooks vs. OKBridge, the US District Court for the Western District of Texas ruled that the ADA doesn't apply to a web site because a web site isn't a "physical place". On appeal, the Fifth Circuit ducked the issue by ruling that OKBridge hadn't violated the ADA for reason unrelated to whether or not the ADA applied to the web site. Details at . If someone knows of a ruling that establishes that the ADA applies to commercial web sites, I'd appreciate a reference. > >#2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. > Doesn't matter. You can't require a disabled person to have a > particular kind of car, or a wheelchair rather than a walker, > etc. If you require everyone to use IE whether disabled or not, you're clearly not discriminating against the disabled if IE can accomodate them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 1 22:34:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E198837B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA26YLT75450; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nils Holland" , "Brett Glass" Cc: "Paul Robinson" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:20 -0800 Message-ID: <003a01c16368$67667100$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Nils Holland >Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:55 PM >To: Brett Glass >Cc: Paul Robinson; Andrew C. Hornback; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; >advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >> At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >> >> >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd >> >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? >> >> Yes. > >I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short >and precise answers... > > >My original statement may have sounded a little strange, but I still think >that we're dealing with an operating system for a more advanced class of >computer users. Everyone can join that advanced class at their free will. >But no one can expect icons and strange comic-creatures in animated >widnows telling them how to use the disklabel command (yes, this is a >reference to this strange help system introduced by MS in Office 97 and >up). > I really don't think we have to worry about this happening. There is a curve in operation, you see. The X axis is number of installs. The y axis is support demands on developer time. As X grows the curve ramps up very rapidy. Once you hit 50% of market share the support demands on time have consumed 100% of developers time and all development on the software ceases because everyone who is the least bit knowledgeable is too busy answering questions from people that don't know anything. Commercial software packages (like Windows) are able to handle this several ways. First they simply allow lots of bugs in the product. Second they keep removing knobs, switches and other settings mechanism to dumb down the software so that there's less support calls. Last, because they charge money for support, this pushes a lot of the bonehead questions off since now people have to pay for not reading the instructions. As the installed base expands they simply raise the prices for bonehead support (note that Microsoft has long had a policy of NOT charging for support issues that are related to bugs in Windows, those support questions comprise less than 1% of the questions posed to their tech support) until equilibrim is reached again. With free software, because the number of knobs and switches available to be selected, I don't believe that it would be possible to support more than 50% of the market because every setting opportunity increases the number of potential support calls. Look at DNS - under Microsoft it's a simple GUI that has few selections available and doesen't let the user do much. Under UNIX it's a config file that can be written in shorthand, longhand, or a mix and you can imagine that a typical dumb user support call on a DNS zone file problem would probably chew up 5 times the amount of support time for UNIX as the platform vs NT. That's a huge phone bank staffed with people that need to feed themselves and free software doesen't have the revenue stream to support an entire industry of people that do nothing other than read the instructions to morons who pick up the phone and call instead of cracking the instruction manual. Look at cow manure to see what I mean. You would think that of all the things that morons would NOT make phone calls about, manure would be at the top of the list. But the companies that sell it have entire webpages devoted to application instructions and everything else about crap. Now, if the unwashed masses cannot even be trusted to figure out how to spread cow shit around their gardens without hand-holding, how do you expect to get them going with FreeBSD?!?! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 0:23:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDA037B408; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-136.wobline.de [212.68.69.144]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA28MpN15904; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:22:51 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA28PI726380; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:25:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA28MZf00816; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:23:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:22:35 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brett Glass , Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <003a01c16368$67667100$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Look at DNS - under Microsoft it's a simple GUI that has few > selections available and doesen't let the user do much. Under UNIX > it's a config file that can be written in shorthand, longhand, or a > mix and you can imagine that a typical dumb user support call on a DNS > zone file problem would probably chew up 5 times the amount of support > time for UNIX as the platform vs NT. That's a huge phone bank staffed > with people that need to feed themselves and free software doesen't > have the revenue stream to support an entire industry of people that > do nothing other than read the instructions to morons who pick up the > phone and call instead of cracking the instruction manual. That's something that has changed in the industry, and I don't know if it's too good. I mean: When computers were not present in every home, and only real hackers had access to them or even owned one, the world worked much better. I real hacker basically didn't use the computer because he wants to store his recipies in there, but, basically, he uses the computer for the sake that it's a computer. This has changed today, and it seems that the majority of people is unable to learn. I mean, I used a Commodore 64 (originally 1 Mhz, 64 KB RAM, but can be powered up to 20 Mhz, 4 or more MB and even a harddisk) until 1995. When I bought my first PC thereafter, I almost instantly started out in FreeBSD. Back then, I didn't know anything about Unix, but by reading all kinds of things, and by using my beloved trial-and-error approach, I managed to learn the basics rather soon, and by now I think I'm fairly good at it. This kind of learning has always been required when it comes to computers - again, on the Commodore 64, you got a 100 pages handbook which didn't tell you much, and then you had to figure out the rest yourself, which could best be done by buying another, more in-depth book. Looking at Microsoft OSes today, I guess they can be used by almost everyone without much learning. If you set up a FreeBSD box with KDE this is also true for FreeBSD. HOWEVER - make no mistake about it - even though it is possible to start using a system without much learning, which is probably a good thing, there *will always* be learning required if you want to use advanced features. You can use a computer without reading any documentation, but I guess you will have to read it in order to be able to use the computer really effectively. As I said, in the past, computer users were more ready to learn, and I think that made computer users all in all more knowledgable. Today, they want everything to be shoved up their *ss. If that will indeed be good for them in the end can actually be doubted. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 2:49: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3CC37B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 02:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zbsW-0005VW-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:48:48 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zbsg-000Cnt-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:48:58 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:48:58 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Nils Holland Cc: David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net>; from nils@tisys.org on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:40:25AM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zbsW-0005VW-00*$AK$tgcXlh.GT.DXaoXmzKfww.* Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Nov 1, Nils Holland wrote: > It *should* have mass acceptance! If what I said previously sounded > different, then it was definately not what I wanted to say. Sorry, it's > very late here already ;-) I basically only wanted to say that we do not > need to copy Microsoft or anyone else, but instead *get the word out* > wbout what we have to offer. That's my point - that sentiment is what needs to be discussed. Let me try and bring this thread back screaming and kicking to being on-topic again, and then let me explain where that little sub-thread went. OK, what I was trying to say, is that perhaps it's not the bank's website that is broken, but our software. Perhaps, just maybe, we should be trying to adopt those standards, even try and make the rendering engines more IE-like so that there is a legitimate reason to say they are being 'facist' when they exclude us. Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now and come and join us or you're lame", or as to whether we should address all the usability issues around our preferred platform to make the user experience more accomodating for more people. Nobody is talking about moving to an entirely point-and-click interface. OK, you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. If an on-line stores choose to spend 50k on some Actinic-spawned bastard of an e-commerce system, and they realise it will cost another 25k to get it to work with browsers other than IE, like Mozilla and Konqueror, but only 10% of the target market uses those browsers, should they spend the money? Do they not have the right to say "this is the standard we've adopted"? - I don't phone up my ISP and demand that they should let me use UUCP, because I know the standard accepted by nearly everybody who uses mail is SMTP. Same argument. Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. I expect my inbox will get even more flames now. *sigh*. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 3:12:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A5137B403; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id fA2BCDl45923 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:12:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA26384 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:12:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:12:13 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Cc: Nils Holland , David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102121213.D22587@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:48:58AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Robinson said on Nov 2, 2001 at 10:48:58: > That's my point - that sentiment is what needs to be discussed. Let me try > and bring this thread back screaming and kicking to being on-topic again, > and then let me explain where that little sub-thread went. > > OK, what I was trying to say, is that perhaps it's not the bank's website > that is broken, but our software. Perhaps, just maybe, we should be trying > to adopt those standards, even try and make the rendering engines more > IE-like so that there is a legitimate reason to say they are being 'facist' > when they exclude us. As many have pointed out, IE is not a standard. IE is a moving target. The standards come from W3C, of which Microsoft too is a member. > Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just > sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now > and come and join us or you're lame", or as to whether we should address all > the usability issues around our preferred platform to make the user > experience more accomodating for more people. Or perhaps we can ask the people who maintain these web pages to stick to the W3C standards. (They're paid for it, it's their job, they should know how to do these things.) Then, if Mozilla doesn't support it, we can start cribbing about Mozilla. In fact, I haven't yet come across an online service which didn't work with a recent version of Mozilla. Maybe I'm lucky. But in any case, it suggests to me that it's not all that hard to do it. Other people, more knowledgeable than me, have already said the same thing. > Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm > wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably > good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic > when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. The problem is not their browser but their extensions. If these extensions are a good idea, let the W3C endorse them -- that's happened before. And incidentally, "whining" about W3C standard compliance probably does help: MS IE reportedly has been improving in standards compliance greatly, and is at least comparable with Mozilla, and most certainly far ahead of Netscape 4.x, which I haven't needed to use for ages now. I'm not sure why MS is supporting standards in this case -- it goes totally against their grain as displayed in every other aspect of their behaviour -- but it could well be the collective global "whining" about it... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 4:42:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EEC237B406; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-214.wobline.de [212.68.69.225]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2CgEN11501; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:42:14 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Cii727136; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:44:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Cg1f01906; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:42:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:42:01 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: David Johnson , Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011102132845.J1890-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > Nobody is talking about moving to an entirely point-and-click interface. OK, > you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I > have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just > like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would > expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered > correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and > we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. I herewith announce that I may now stop to be active in this thread, but one last response seems neccessary: There *are* open standards that our software (say Mozilla and Konqueror) have adopted. However, it's pretty obvious to me that Microsoft tries to mess up these standards in order for us being unable to catch up (if that is the right word). After all, Microsoft is not implementing things to make the user experience better, but to make users use their products. Assuming that our browsers would be able to do things *exactly* 100% as MSIE does today, then Microsoft would see a threat: "Uhh, the open software folks can do the same as we can, let's cause 'em some trouble!". And tomorrow, Microsoft would mess something new up, probably patent it in order for us to be unable to use it. Next step: MS would tell web programmers that their new technology is *absolutely required*. Our way is indeed better in a sense that I have never seen us blocking out anyone intentionally. If I were involved in Mozilla design, I could implemet a few things that only can be displayed in Mozilla, and then I could make my website use these things. That would create a bad experience for MSIE users. However, I'm not doing that, and the whole open software world doesn't seem to do it. Microsoft does, however, do it all of the time, and that's the point and the explanation why our way is obviously better. If you read about Microsoft's history, then it's impossible to fail to see that they are *not* trying to create a better experience for their users, but that they are trying to block any competitors out. Can we change that? Well, if Microsoft creates and impelemts a new *patented* technology called ActiveCrap, then we could under now circumstances implement it in Mozilla due to licensing problems (well, if we'd pay Microsoft a few million dollars, we could possibly use ActiveCrap). What we can do, however, is offer something similar in an open manner, if it makes sense (releasing an open counterpart to ActiveCrap, called "OpenCrap" is probably a bad idea). More and more people have realized the way Microsoft works, and they are no longer willing to take it. Soon, Microsoft will have two choices: Act like any other responsible company our project, or die. Looking at the past decisions at MS, they will probably choose the second thing... Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 5:14:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn154-32.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.32.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BE837B405; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fA2D45r22122; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:04:05 GMT (envelope-from wcp) Message-ID: <15330.39364.356654.273742@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:04:04 +0000 From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101140415.B41247@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost> <20011101140415.B41247@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Clark writes: > In a way, I wish MS would make up some incompatible non-open > (browser alternative) product and take the MS-loving > clone-people away from the internet entirely. They already tried. Before Mr Gates realized that Internet was the way to go. It was called MSN (not the current incarnation) and toward the end, to keep the few customers, they had to provide an Internet gateway. More than an Internet clone I think it was an AOL clone, supposedly meant to steal market shares to AOL. It was a close circuit; the information you could get from it was coming from Microsoft. Fortunately, due to lack of content, people abandoned MSN for the Real Thing. I'm afraid, if Microsoft introduced a radical incompatibility in its Web technology now, we all would face the problem of conforming to yet another silly "de facto" standard. Yes, Internet Explorer is not a standard (as some people like to belive), it's just the most ubiquitous browser. This is called "de facto standard". Which just means many people use it or many producers adopted it (better named "industry standard"). Nothing else. A real standard is what goes through a standardization process in a committee set up by a respectable, neutral, possibly international organization. ANSI, IEEE, ISO to name a few. A real standard is meant to save design efforts and produce a broad agreement among implementors so that their products will be interoperable or compatible. This should as well guarantee a long(er) lasting technology that is good for the producer and for the end user. A de facto standard doesn't mean anything of all this. (How often the Word document format has been modified in a totally incompatible way?) Microsoft can introduce _de facto_ standards to their will. They just need to burn some million dollars in a marketing campaign and the hypnotized masses in front of a TV screen will follow. That's, I guess, understandable and acceptable (sort of). Less acceptable is that this kind of misinformation is spreading into technical areas where people are supposed to know what they are talking about. They are supposed to distinguish a standard from commercial hype and they are supposed to advise less informed people (PHB) about this subtle but substantial distinctions. -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 6:53:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F04FB37B426 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8583 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 14:53:09 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070b) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 14:53:09 -0000 Message-ID: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Paul Robinson" , "Nils Holland" Cc: "David Johnson" , "Brett Glass" , , References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:53:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just > sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now > and come and join us or you're lame" You could have just said "linux" in place of this entire paragraph. > Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm > wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably > good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic > when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. I agree with you completely. I've had _dreams_ of the day when I can install IE 5 or 6 under BSD. Maybe I'd actually stop thinking of BSD-as-a-desktop as a joke. FreeBSD makes a beautiful server, and I would use nothing else. But as a desktop, if we resist emulating Microsoft in any way, it's only our loss. Microsoft didn't become the king of the desktop by introducing some radical design. They took the best crap out of the others and combined them to make something people would use. You can argue that it was all business tactics and whatnot, but I remember the lines of people fighting over copies of Windows 95 back in the day. Emulate successful people to gain some market share, and don't diverge from the mainstream until you have the market share to back it up. Like it or not, that's success. I don't really care either way. I want to see FreeBSD promoted as an enterprise level server and be noticed by IBM, HP, and other enterprise solution resellers. Windows 2000 Professional is my desktop, and a fine desktop it is. Lets focus on our strengths. All of the software you guys are talking about is GNU/Linux stuff, and they obviously are working on making it a desktop, even if their attempts and their attitudes are sometimes laughable. If they are successful and produce a set of packages that make a worthy desktop to compete with Windows, poof, we have one too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 7:43: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4637537B406; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-133.wobline.de [212.68.69.141]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2FgfN30686; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:42:41 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2FjB727736; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:45:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Fgjr00596; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:42:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:42:45 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Paul Robinson , David Johnson , Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> Message-ID: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > FreeBSD makes a beautiful server, and I would use nothing else. But as a > desktop, if we resist emulating Microsoft in any way, it's only our loss. > Microsoft didn't become the king of the desktop by introducing some radical > design. They took the best crap out of the others and combined them to make > something people would use. Hmm, forcing computer manufacturers to install their system is what made them successful - not very much more. If you turn on your TV set and have a look at CNN, you should see what I mean... > You can argue that it was all business tactics and whatnot, but I > remember the lines of people fighting over copies of Windows 95 back > in the day. With many millons of dollars for marketing and a few easy psychological tricks, I could get people to throw away their current PC and make them buy an 8 bit machine with 64 KB of RAM instead. Of course, I would not talk about the bits and the RAM, but I'd talk about easy to use, I'd mention the words "total cost of ownership", maybe something like "standard" - yes, all that stuff that sounds good. A few good looking TV spots will be helpful too. And then, I'd present *myself* as the best marketing tool, just like Bill Gates is Microsoft's mascot now (we have a daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 8:12:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF0A37B407; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:12:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA2GFum39702; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:15:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:15:56 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102171556.A38776@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland [Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:42:45PM +0100]: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: [cut] > daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! Do me a favor, and: a) promote Timex 2048 if you decide to do it, b) end this OT discussion. -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 8:20: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3CDC137B403 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8887 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 16:19:51 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070c) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 16:19:51 -0000 Message-ID: <001701c163ba$3d9709a0$018410ac@cx443070c> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Nils Holland" Cc: "Paul Robinson" , "David Johnson" , "Brett Glass" , , References: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:19:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hmm, forcing computer manufacturers to install their system is what made > them successful - not very much more. If you turn on your TV set and have > a look at CNN, you should see what I mean... And I assume they enslaved those people charging into the store to buy Windows 95 right ? Apparently they didn't get it preinstalled. > With many millons of dollars for marketing and a few easy psychological > tricks, I could get people to throw away their current PC and make them > buy an 8 bit machine with 64 KB of RAM instead. Of course, I would not > talk about the bits and the RAM, but I'd talk about easy to use, I'd > mention the words "total cost of ownership", maybe something like > "standard" - yes, all that stuff that sounds good. A few good looking TV > spots will be helpful too. And then, I'd present *myself* as the best > marketing tool, just like Bill Gates is Microsoft's mascot now (we have a > daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! (a) You're implying that Windows has no technical merits to stand on, that it's all marketing. I would simply ask you this: Is Windows combined with Office not the most productive desktop for an ignorant office worker ? Don't rant about crashing and tech support, I'm talking about comparing a person sat down on a computer running Windows vs. Mac OS vs. any of the Unix desktops. You can argue for Mac OS, but that's something of a lost cause in the workplace. Windows and Office being the most productive desktop gives them technical merit, and therefore any implications that it's only marketing are senseless. There is *nothing* that compares to Office 2000 or XP. Sun's StarOffice is about as useful as the old version of Microsoft Office I used to install with 15 floppy disks under Windows 3.1. The point is, if you can't offer anything better in that catagory, you can't claim that there's no technical merit in the market leader. You don't have a better desktop, you don't have a better browser (no, you don't), you don't have a better office solution, you don't have better hardware support (we all know the reason for that, but that doesn't matter), and you don't have better APIs (There are MANY different ways for all sorts of people to develop Windows software, that's how they beat everyone. The free SDK is what conquered Apple, believe it or not. And I believe those familiar with it will admit the Win32 API is very powerful.). What you do have is a rock solid kernel, excellent speed, excellent design, and an awesome foundation. That's what makes Apple the genius of them all. The foundation of Mach/Darwin/BSD with a truly productive and usable GUI on top. Add Microsoft Office, a nice RISC processor, some marketing, a rabid customer base, and we have a winner (And no, I don't even like Macs). Apple is playing the game. Microsoft is playing the game. We aren't even playing the game. Linux *thinks* they're playing the game, but they aren't (which is sad). If the game is selling desktop machines, marketing is the key. But don't claim that all these years of Microsoft development have lead to zero technical merits. I know their kernel isn't locked under SMP when a single process makes a syscall. We're catching up to some of their past accomplishments. I'm not trying to be Pro-Microsoft, I just hate one sided arguments that talk about mascots and marketing as though that's the only reason a product succeeded. (b) And you're going on the common open source community belief that marketing is some sort of underhanded tactic. No offense, but have you ever taken a business or economics course ? Marketing is one of the tools used in business. I know marketing laws are a little different in Germany, but the concept remains the same. You can have the most powerful product in the world, and fail because you lack proper marketing. Do you blame them for their success ? Are you jealous ? Why do you mock them for doing with their operating system, what we would like to do with ours ? Succeed. You don't have to like their product. But you can't blame Microsoft for doing everything they could to succeed, including marketing to stupid non-tech IT Managers who look for industry buzz words like TCO to repeat to the officers of their corporation. Blame the companies for putting non-tech people in a position of purchasing authority in regards to technical products. We all create the customer base, they simply tailor their marketing to match. Right now, the tech people are not in the positions of major purchasing power, so they're not going to market to us. You can't blame a company for trying to sell what they have, to those who have the power to buy it. You can blame those who put stupid uninformed lemmings in the position to make such purchasing decisions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 8:51: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817E037B42B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.139.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.139.195] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zhWT-0003sQ-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:50:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2CF02.798D992D@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:51:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Nils Holland , David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Robinson wrote: > That's my point - that sentiment is what needs to be discussed. Let me try > and bring this thread back screaming and kicking to being on-topic again, > and then let me explain where that little sub-thread went. > > OK, what I was trying to say, is that perhaps it's not the bank's website > that is broken, but our software. Perhaps, just maybe, we should be trying > to adopt those standards, even try and make the rendering engines more > IE-like so that there is a legitimate reason to say they are being 'facist' > when they exclude us. I'd be willing to work on this... ...after you do all the ActiveX control support. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 8:51:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (mail6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2934237B40A; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1003.abra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.4.235] helo=northway.bishopston.net) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 15zhX9-0006C0-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:51:07 +0000 Received: (from jamie@localhost) by northway.bishopston.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00660; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:47:55 GMT Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:41:11 GMT From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net> To: nils@tisys.org, paul@akita.co.uk Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com In-Reply-To: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul wrote: [ 8< ] > Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just > sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now > and come and join us or you're lame", or as to whether we should address all > the usability issues around our preferred platform to make the user > experience more accomodating for more people. [ 8< ] > you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I > have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just > like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would > expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered > correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and > we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. What I find interesting is that this topic is now coming down to the above, and whether it would be better for us to include IE "standards" to make our browsers more compatible with the masses, or stand firm, but unfortunately be less compatible with the majority. Most people on this thread seem to favour the latter. To me at least, this thread seems very similar to the recent thread on the FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer, and whether we should really emulate Linux or not. In that case, the vast majority thought the emulation was a good idea. Help me out here - what's different ? Ok, you can argue that the IE'isms are non-standard, but as has already been pointed out, they are a "non-defacto" standard we'd need to follow to promote more widespread use of our browsers on our OS, which was the main argument for keeping with Linux emulation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely a follower of the web-standards, but I can certainly see Pauls point of view. > Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm > wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably > good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic > when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. I don't like the Microsoft OS, and I've had to use and support many incarnations, but I'm not blindly anti-MS - If they release a product I like, I'll say so. I actually used to like Media Player, but unfortunately, its recently become very bloated.. Any way, my main problem with IE is it's total disregard for the mime headers sent back with a http response, which should have been "fixed" a long time ago... Cheers, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 9:31:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBD837B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.139.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.139.195] helo=mindspring.com) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zi9a-0003Sf-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:30:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2D876.405608C4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:31:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Jones Cc: nils@tisys.org, paul@akita.co.uk, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jamie Jones wrote: > To me at least, this thread seems very similar to the recent thread on > the FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer, and whether we should really > emulate Linux or not. > > In that case, the vast majority thought the emulation was a good idea. > > Help me out here - what's different ? The precise case in question is a web site that uses the JavaScript browser identification to exclude browsers other than IE or Netscape running on Windows. To "be compatible", we would have to lie to the JavaScript interpreter, so that when it ran locally (which is where JavaScript runs), it believed that it was running on an IE or Netscape of the appropriate version on Windows. To do this, we would have to illegally use at least one trademark. This seems to be what you are suggesting. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 9:39:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E838F37B401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id fA2HdIl81661 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:39:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA45762 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:39:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:39:18 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Jones Cc: nils@tisys.org, paul@akita.co.uk, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102183918.A45437@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net>; from jamie@northway.bishopston.net on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:41:11PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jamie Jones said on Nov 2, 2001 at 16:41:11: > > you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I > > have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just > > like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would > > expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered > > correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and > > we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. > To me at least, this thread seems very similar to the recent thread on > the FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer, and whether we should really > emulate Linux or not. > > In that case, the vast majority thought the emulation was a good idea. > > Help me out here - what's different ? Bad analogy. The linux compatibility layer allows you to run linux binaries, unmodified: it's analogous to wine, not to "windows-ifying FreeBSD". I think most FreeBSD people would agree that an (optional) subsystem like wine that lets you run windows binaries seamlessly, and which works as well as the linux compatibility, would be a good thing. Many people wouldn't want it, but many others would. This is not at all the same thing as modifying FreeBSD itself, or programs like Mozilla, to mimic Windows behaviour. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 12: 9:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA2937B401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 598E717BD4; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447EC15CC9; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:09:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:09:33 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > If you require everyone to use IE whether disabled or not, you're > clearly not discriminating against the disabled if IE can accomodate > them. > That's a substantial if. I suspect it's not true. For one, can you use IE with a braille terminal? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 12:26:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C849237B401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E31BCF7; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17089; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:26:40 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA2KP2t54184; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:25:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nils Holland Cc: , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 02 Nov 2001 12:25:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Message-ID: Lines: 76 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland writes: > Hmm, forcing computer manufacturers to install their system is what made > them successful - not very much more. That was part of it - but there WAS very much more. Mostly, that they offered software that users preferred to buy more than the few available alternatives. (My gripe has been with both the users who didn't insist on something better instead of just accepting the best of a very bad lot and with M$ for devoting themselves only to the bottom line and market domination and for being such a technological foot-dragger wasting their enormous R & D budget (and of course, their dispicable business practices).) But one must admit that when users had the choice of M$DOS or CP/M or Mac or IBM or legions of Unix OSes, few could afford to choose one of the technically better OSes. Don't fool yourself that people don't use FreeBSD (or Linux, etc) because they don't know about it. Few care that it is powerful. And it's a new world, now. With negligible exceptions, WinXP and Win2000 are as powerful and flexible and "good" as any Unix OS, roughly speaking, of course. People use FreeBSD mostly because it is best in it's niche as a low-cost server OS or, not to be forgotten, because they appreciate the FreeBSD philsophy (and license) or community. Nils, don't compare FreeBSD to M$ Windows, especially one without a command line installed. (Do you know that you can get a largely- complete Unix shell enviroment for Windows?) Compare it with Mac OS X running on a Intel/AMD CPU which comes with a fully functional Unix shell. Compare it with something better than that. Imagine a system that is both easy to use and powerful/flexible. Imagine software that does the grunt work so you can do creative things. Consider users like me who've known the benefits of Unix for over twenty years and haven't needed to read "The Unix-Hater's Handbook" (though I have read it) to know that Unix has severe problems who's continued existance is a result of nothing more than cultural momentum and inability to coordinate changes in a largely anarchic community. It was fine when I was young and eager to exercise the power and flexibilty and had a full-time Unix system administrator to do the grunt work, but even if I enjoyed doing the grunt work (which I no longer do), I find myself spending most of my available time doing grunt work and have little time left to do more creative things or to learn about more than poorly-documented system and network software. Few people who know these usability problems well or discover them shortly after trying a Unix-like OS, are going to use such an OS by choice. Few care about the philosphies or ethics of the OS producer and will use the OS that lets them do non-OS things faster than the other OSes. Unless you're satisfied going after small niche markets like HTML servers or free software philosophers (and even if that's all, as I explained yesterday) you need to work on making your OS more efficient of user time, more than any other single thing. Yes, efficiency of user time is vital to the future of an OS. Your measure of OS performance and powerfulness should weigh that more than speed of IP transfers or a thousand other low-level features. And flexibility is only important to the extent that it reduces the time it takes for a user to do something (including the learning process to do it). Now, we will agree that a dumb GUI is actually less efficient than use of a dumb config file. But we should be past all that by now. GUIs should be smart. They can even be made to look exactly like a dumb config file, but in fact be a kind of smart config file. Good GUIs think for you. They check for typos and conflicts and dependancies. They offer you choices so you don't have to remember them. They make info and help available to you. Developers of other OSes and their applications are putting lots of effort into putting smarts into user interfaces so that users can use their time to be smart about other things. You will not compete with them if you only put your effort into the non-user-interface parts of OSes and their applications. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 12:36:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1548D37B407; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02363; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:36:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:35:26 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:27 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >The ADA actually applies to "physical places of public >accomodation". In Hooks vs. OKBridge, the US District Court for the >Western District of Texas ruled that the ADA doesn't apply to a web >site because a web site isn't a "physical place". On appeal, the Fifth >Circuit ducked the issue by ruling that OKBridge hadn't violated the >ADA for reason unrelated to whether or not the ADA applied to the web >site. Details at . Sorry, Mike, but that case is unrelated. The person in question had bipolar disorder, not an inability to read the screen. The DOJ has ruled that the ADA does require Web pages to be accessible via text-based browsers. Local governments have also imposed similar requirements. see http://www.rit.edu/~easi/law/weblaw1.htm --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 13: 6:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8A937B40D; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-144.wobline.de [212.68.69.152]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2L6UN27070; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:30 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2L93728966; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:09:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2L6Ya00516; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:34 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011102215135.A484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2 Nov 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > But one must admit that when users had the choice of M$DOS or CP/M > or Mac or IBM or legions of Unix OSes, few could afford to choose one of > the technically better OSes. Do the test: Go out on the street and ask random people if they know what OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, BeOS or CP/M are. Ask the same people to define the term "operating system." Post the results to the forum, and let's interpret them to find out if users actually had the choice to get other OSes. I guess most won't know that there are alternatives, and if you don't know about something, you cannot use it. > With negligible exceptions, WinXP and Win2000 are as powerful and > flexible and "good" as any Unix OS, roughly speaking, of course. *VERY* roughly speaking... > It was fine when I was young and eager to exercise the power and > flexibilty and had a full-time Unix system administrator to do the > grunt work, but even if I enjoyed doing the grunt work (which I no > longer do), I find myself spending most of my available time doing > grunt work and have little time left to do more creative things or to > learn about more than poorly-documented system and network software. Half of what I enjoy about Unix is just doing that very grunt work. > Now, we will agree that a dumb GUI is actually less efficient than > use of a dumb config file. But we should be past all that by now. > GUIs should be smart. They can even be made to look exactly like > a dumb config file, but in fact be a kind of smart config file. > Good GUIs think for you. They check for typos and conflicts and > dependancies. They offer you choices so you don't have to remember > them. They make info and help available to you. Open up Microsoft Word. Type the folowing exactly as shown: "I cannot let a sentence start with a non-capital letter. here is the proof!" What you will realize: MS Word will convert the first letter of the second sentence into a capital letter, so that it reads "Here is the proof!. Now, you call that "info and help"? I call it thinking that all users are created stupid, because it seems as if MS doesn't want to give me the right to start sentences with non-capital letters unless I specifically change that in the options somewhere. > Developers of other OSes and their applications are putting lots of > effort into putting smarts into user interfaces so that users can use > their time to be smart about other things. You will not compete with > them if you only put your effort into the non-user-interface parts of > OSes and their applications. I guess that on FreeBSD with KDE or GNOME, you can put your effort into other, creative things. You can, however, also decide not to do that and instead play the game "the hard way". It's that flexibility that I regard as important. Greetings Nils (NOTE: I hope that this thread will soon come to an end, because it seems to be a complete waste of time. For my part, I will now only post replies if I really find it neccessary. Sorry for anyone who felt disturbed by me so far...) Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 13:13: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF48E37B40A for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 63774 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 21:12:56 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.3160.267602.910557@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:12:56 -0600 To: David Scheidt Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: References: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG DDavid Scheidt types: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > If you require everyone to use IE whether disabled or not, you're > > clearly not discriminating against the disabled if IE can accomodate > > them. > That's a substantial if. I suspect it's not true. For one, can you use > IE with a braille terminal? I dunno. That's what I pointed out in the context that you threw out that talked about the accessibility options that IE has that I haven't looked into. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 13:44:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3A5B37B40D for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 64431 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 21:44:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:44:25 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 11:27 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >The ADA actually applies to "physical places of public > >accomodation". In Hooks vs. OKBridge, the US District Court for the > >Western District of Texas ruled that the ADA doesn't apply to a web > >site because a web site isn't a "physical place". On appeal, the Fifth > >Circuit ducked the issue by ruling that OKBridge hadn't violated the > >ADA for reason unrelated to whether or not the ADA applied to the web > >site. Details at . > > Sorry, Mike, but that case is unrelated. The person in question had > bipolar disorder, not an inability to read the screen. The DOJ > has ruled that the ADA does require Web pages to be accessible via > text-based browsers. Local governments have also imposed similar > requirements. see > > http://www.rit.edu/~easi/law/weblaw1.htm Whether the person in question had bipoloar disorder or an inability to read the screen is immaterial. What that case gives you is a precedent - which has *not* been overturned by a superior court - that a commercial web site is not covered by the ADA as it is not a physical place. If you read the paper you cited carefully, you'll find that it requires "covered entities" to provide web sites accessible to the disabled, and that Titles II and III make state and local governments - and any organizations they or the feds fund - "covered entities". All of which I've publicly stated before. If you go back and read the DOJ document I cited, specifically the paragraph titled "Fifth Circuit Avoids Ruling on Internet Coverage", you'll find that the Department of Justice thinks there is no precedent for the ADA applying to commercial web sites. While the DOJ clearly feels that commercial web sites should be covered, as they filed a brief with the fifth circuit court to that effect, and I agree with them, the best legal precedent they have says otherwise. As always, I'm interested in any precedent that would supercede the ones cited by the DOJ. Without that, all you're doing is wishing that the ADA applied. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 14: 4:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 426FB37B40A; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:04:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:04:21 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Nils Holland Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Paul Robinson , David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102140421.B37684@FreeBSD.org> References: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net>; from nils@tisys.org on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:42:45PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > With many millons of dollars for marketing and a few easy psychological > tricks, I could get people to throw away their current PC and make them > buy an 8 bit machine with 64 KB of RAM instead. Of course, I would not > talk about the bits and the RAM, but I'd talk about easy to use, I'd > mention the words "total cost of ownership", maybe something like > "standard" - yes, all that stuff that sounds good. A few good looking TV > spots will be helpful too. And then, I'd present *myself* as the best > marketing tool, just like Bill Gates is Microsoft's mascot now (we have a > daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! Eight is boring. Use a prime. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 14: 9:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C4337B40E; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 168D317BC1; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE3415CC9; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > If you go back and read the DOJ document I cited, specifically the > paragraph titled "Fifth Circuit Avoids Ruling on Internet Coverage", > you'll find that the Department of Justice thinks there is no > precedent for the ADA applying to commercial web sites. While the DOJ > clearly feels that commercial web sites should be covered, as they > filed a brief with the fifth circuit court to that effect, and I agree > with them, the best legal precedent they have says otherwise. Well, not quite. Doesn't say it's otherwise, doesn't say it's not otherwise. They ducked the issue. Given that it doesn't cost much money to design an accessable site, but it does cost lots of money to retrofit one so it's accessable, it's silly to do otherwise. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 14:24:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5748B37B40E for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 65653 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 22:24:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.7459.503822.857563@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:24:35 -0600 To: David Scheidt Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: References: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Scheidt types: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > If you go back and read the DOJ document I cited, specifically the > > paragraph titled "Fifth Circuit Avoids Ruling on Internet Coverage", > > you'll find that the Department of Justice thinks there is no > > precedent for the ADA applying to commercial web sites. While the DOJ > > clearly feels that commercial web sites should be covered, as they > > filed a brief with the fifth circuit court to that effect, and I agree > > with them, the best legal precedent they have says otherwise. > > Well, not quite. Doesn't say it's otherwise, doesn't say it's not > otherwise. They ducked the issue. Given that it doesn't cost much money to > design an accessable site, but it does cost lots of money to retrofit one so > it's accessable, it's silly to do otherwise. The Fifth Circuit court ducked the issue, the District Court ruling is the one I was referring to. I'd love a solid precedent saying that commercial web sites were covered by the ADA. As for the costs - I gave up trying to tell people that five years ago, because nobody cared. As far as I can tell, they still don't. The question of expensive retrofits was brought up in the congressional hearings on the matter, and the ADA doesn't require them. It's going to take something major to make most web designers notice. Since AOL agreeing to redesign their software for accessability to end the lawsuit with The National Federation for the Blind wasn't major enough, I have no idea what would be. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 14:33:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6449937B40B for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (fly.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.98]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id fA2MXqB15631; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:33:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3BE31F31.A29EDFF7@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:33:21 -0700 From: Don Wilde Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102213845.U484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland wrote: > > Personally, even when looking at it from a non-technical side, I would > never trust such a company. > Isn't it absolutely f***ing amazing how many people do? On a related note (to this, even if not the original thread), I want to put a plug in for working with kids. I now spend each Friday morning at a middle school, along with 2 other geeks willing to join me, talking to kids about computing and PCs and BSD, and our topics range from whether "grey" is right or wrong to BSD vs Doze, to religion, sex, and all kinds of other things. If anybody is still following this thread, I highly recommend it for _mutual benefit_ for anyone interested in advocacy or even learning more about themselves. I have found (and my compatriots also) that I am better at my normal work AFTER EVERY SESSION, because explaining what I do makes me examine it for myself. Try it, you like it! -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 14:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BAD37B40C; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:42:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04163; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:42:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:41:58 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:44 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Whether the person in question had bipoloar disorder or an inability >to read the screen is immaterial. Not at all. It is quite important. Also, remember that the ruling in that case claimed that the owner of the site was running a "private club." Clearly, this is not the case for MSN, which is a public accommodation and which Windows users are COMPELLED to access for product activation. So, the ruling was very narrow indeed. And it only applies in one judicial circuit. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 14:48:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFC337B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 4BB8B17BC1; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F0E15CC9; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:48:41 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.7459.503822.857563@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > The Fifth Circuit court ducked the issue, the District Court ruling is > the one I was referring to. I'd love a solid precedent saying that > commercial web sites were covered by the ADA. The District Court ruling doesn't count for much, since the the appeals case. I too would like very much to see a solid precedent, one way or the other (hopefully that web sites are public accomadations, since they are). > > As for the costs - I gave up trying to tell people that five years > ago, because nobody cared. As far as I can tell, they still don't. The > question of expensive retrofits was brought up in the congressional > hearings on the matter, and the ADA doesn't require them. It's going > to take something major to make most web designers notice. Since AOL > agreeing to redesign their software for accessability to end the > lawsuit with The National Federation for the Blind wasn't major > enough, I have no idea what would be. While the ADA doesn't require major retrofits to bring something into compliance, it does require that new construction and major renovations be compliant, and has penalities for those that don't. Since all web sites postdate the ADA, retrofitting might be required. Of course, many companies can't look 6 months into the future, so it's no suprise this doesn't worry them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 15: 1:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1C137B413; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA2N4rl65792; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:04:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:04:53 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011103000452.C65729@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <20011102215135.A484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20011102215135.A484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nils Holland [Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:06:34PM +0100]: > On 2 Nov 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > But one must admit that when users had the choice of M$DOS or CP/M > > or Mac or IBM or legions of Unix OSes, few could afford to choose one of > > the technically better OSes. > Do the test: Go out on the street and ask random people if they know what > OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, BeOS or CP/M are. Ask the same people to > define the term "operating system." Post the results to the forum, and Well, you could find such forum on http://rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_os.shtml > Open up Microsoft Word. Type the folowing exactly as shown: "I cannot let > a sentence start with a non-capital letter. here is the proof!" It's easy to turn it off. MS Word has also many other features (even those turned-on by default), which are not available on Unix, no matter which (native) office suite we would use. > created stupid, because it seems as if MS doesn't want to give me the > right to start sentences with non-capital letters unless I specifically Sue them. > I guess that on FreeBSD with KDE or GNOME, you can put your effort into > other, creative things. You can, however, also decide not to do that and > instead play the game "the hard way". It's that flexibility that I regard > as important. KOffice sucks, it's not for human use, it's untested, it's unuseable. I'd rather learn to write / read pure TeX, that use that so-called Office package. -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 15: 2: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6505437B40C for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 66825 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 23:01:43 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.9687.734603.325845@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:01:43 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 02:44 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Whether the person in question had bipoloar disorder or an inability > >to read the screen is immaterial. > Not at all. It is quite important. Your saying it's important doesn't make it so. Try providing reasons when you make such statements. > Also, remember that the ruling in that case claimed that the owner > of the site was running a "private club." Clearly, this is not > the case for MSN, which is a public accommodation and which Windows > users are COMPELLED to access for product activation. So, the > ruling was very narrow indeed. And it only applies in one judicial > circuit. Yup, the court ruled that the place was a private club as well as that it wasn't a physical place. Further, the Fifth Circuit court ruled that OKBridge didn't violate the ADA because they weren't aware of the alleged disability at the time. And yes, the ruling in question only applies in one judicial circuit, but it can still be considered as precedent in other circuits. Sure, it's a remarkably flimsy precedent - but it's *still* better than any precedent you've quoted or I've been able to find to defend the position that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. Again, if you've got a better precedent, lets hear it, not just you stating what you wish were true yet again. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 2 22:17:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F47337B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA36HCT78726; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Nils Holland" Cc: , Subject: The myth of the worthwile GUI, was NatWest? no thanks Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:17:12 -0800 Message-ID: <004d01c1642f$2cdb61e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Gary W. >Swearingen >Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 12:25 PM >To: Nils Holland >Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > Imagine a system >that is both easy to use and powerful/flexible. Imagine software that >does the grunt work so you can do creative things. > There's plenty of grunt work that has to be done under Windows. Perhaps if you cited specific examples your statement might be more believable. >It was fine when I was young and eager to exercise the power and >flexibilty and had a full-time Unix system administrator to do the >grunt work, but even if I enjoyed doing the grunt work (which I no >longer do), I find myself spending most of my available time doing >grunt work and have little time left to do more creative things or to >learn about more than poorly-documented system and network software. > People pay you for doing the grunt work. It's why they call it "work" These "creative things" that you are alluding to sound more like "play" to me than work. I think the problem is that your getting burned out and are longing for a job where you sit around dreaming these wonderful dreams and people pay you lots of money for it. Wake up that's only in the movies. There were a number of people that did try doing this a couple years back that ran dot-coms and they are now all bankrupt. I can assure you that being a pure Windows admin or managing a house of all Windows isn't going to be any easier than a house of all UNIX. I know that Microsoft keeps saying it is but they are only doing this to get people like you conned into giving them money for their stuff. But if you do once you get their stuff you find out that it's just as horrible as what you have now. There ain't no free lunch in this world. >Few people who know these usability problems well or discover them >shortly after trying a Unix-like OS, are going to use such an OS by >choice. Few care about the philosphies or ethics of the OS producer >and will use the OS that lets them do non-OS things faster than the >other OSes. Unless you're satisfied going after small niche markets >like HTML servers or free software philosophers (and even if that's >all, as I explained yesterday) you need to work on making your OS >more efficient of user time, more than any other single thing. > I think you've been insulated from real users too long and forgotten how stupid they are. A house full of Windows users isn't any more contented than a house full of UNIX users. People find the stupidest things to waste your time with if your trying to support them, they are never satisfied unless the admin comes down from his office and does their job for them. Every time I've seen any useability improvements added into Windows it just makes the users even stupider. Back in the command line days they were forced into at least understanding that a filesystem was like a tree. Win 3.1 filemanager came along and drew the tree for them then they forgot all about the tree image and just started dumping everything in a single directory. Win95 came along and dumped the tree and replaced it with a window with a bunch of icons and now they cannot even dump anything into a single directory anymore. I think your way overestimating the influence of the OS on the users. Users today don't give a rat's ass what OS the computer uses because none of them are willing to do OS-level things like moving files around anymore instead they call the admin to send someone down to do it for them, no matter how simple the latest version of Windows makes it. >Yes, efficiency of user time is vital to the future of an OS. Rubbish. Users today expect everything set up for them and bitch and complain about learning what icon to click to do things. They expect the admin of the company to do it for them, or they expect the manufacturer of the computer to do it for them. They WILL NOT do it themselves no matter how easy you make it. Don't you understand why Microsoft's sales have dropped off in new OS sales? It's because 6 years ago the general user community was actually willing to INSTALL THE OS ON THEIR EXISTING HARDWARE!! Today, they aren't willing to do that and if they want the latest version of Windows they just buy a system with it preinstalled. >Your >measure of OS performance and powerfulness should weigh that more >than speed of IP transfers or a thousand other low-level features. >And flexibility is only important to the extent that it reduces the >time it takes for a user to do something (including the learning >process to do it). > All of this is irrelevant to today's users. Today the users are not willing to spend any time at all learning how to do something. It therefore doesen't matter if it takes 30 seconds to do something on an OS, or 30 minutes, the general userbase population will not even spend the 30 seconds anymore. The first guy that can design an artificial intelligence program that can parse "I want to send an e-mail to that guy, you know, the one that mailed me yesterday about that thing, you know?" and cause the computer to create, compose and transmit an e-mail to the exact person they are thinking about is going to make a million dollars. >Now, we will agree that a dumb GUI is actually less efficient than >use of a dumb config file. But we should be past all that by now. >GUIs should be smart. They can even be made to look exactly like >a dumb config file, but in fact be a kind of smart config file. >Good GUIs think for you. They check for typos and conflicts and >dependancies. They offer you choices so you don't have to remember >them. They make info and help available to you. > The userbase is completely uninterested in reading the info or help presented to them, is incapabable of making choices anymore, is perfectly able to spell "which" when they mean "witch" and not see the error no matter how long they stare at it, and cannot understand what a config file does or why it's needed anymore. >Developers of other OSes and their applications are putting lots of >effort into putting smarts into user interfaces so that users can use >their time to be smart about other things. You will not compete with >them if you only put your effort into the non-user-interface parts of >OSes and their applications. > The idea that a user interface can be made so smart and so easy to use that it will give the users a lot of extra time is a mirage that is unreachable. If the users are not willing to learn and understand the tool in front of them they simply will create worthless junk. The only thing that these so-called "smart" interfaces really do for stupid morons is to make them THINK that they are producing something desirable and good when in reality they are producing garbage. You sit a dumb blonde in front of a modern wordprocessor today and tell her to type a letter, well she thinks she done good because there's 5 different fonts on the page, 3 different colors, and bullets and bold and italics all over the screen. However the actual text that she is pumping out is unintelligible with atrocious grammer, spelling errors all over the place, a vocabulary of less than 50 words, and if presented in a 5th grade grammer school class would get an F. What keeps the industry going is that there's a lot of dumb blondes out there working as receptionists that have managers that need to keep them occupied doing something other than playing solitare while they sit on the phone. So, it is true that these smart GUI interfaces do fill a need, just not the one you think is being filled. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 16: 7:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ED037B406; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21520; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:07:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:07:23 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.9687.734603.325845@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:01 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >And yes, the ruling in question only applies in one judicial circuit, >but it can still be considered as precedent in other circuits. Sure, >it's a remarkably flimsy precedent - but it's *still* better than any >precedent you've quoted or I've been able to find to defend the >position that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. Sorry, but by the time one gets to court over such things one has ALREADY lost due to the great expense of such suits. The DoJ simply demands that things get fixed, and the parties comply because it's the right thing to do and the DoJ's interpretation makes sense. One barely related case isn't even worth citing as a defense. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 16:30:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BD20737B406 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 98600 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 00:30:07 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.35855.130990.367688@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:30:07 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 04:01 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >And yes, the ruling in question only applies in one judicial circuit, > >but it can still be considered as precedent in other circuits. Sure, > >it's a remarkably flimsy precedent - but it's *still* better than any > >precedent you've quoted or I've been able to find to defend the > >position that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. > Sorry, but by the time one gets to court over such things one has > ALREADY lost due to the great expense of such suits. The DoJ simply demands > that things get fixed, and the parties comply because it's the right > thing to do and the DoJ's interpretation makes sense. One barely related > case isn't even worth citing as a defense. So why did AOL go to court with The National Federation for the Blind? And where are all the web sites that have been fixed, or cases that have been settled out of court because of this. The DoJ tracks these things, and nothing shows up in their records. In fact, the best evidence I could find is that the DoJ is in the same state I'm in - believing that the ADA applies to commercial web sites, but still waiting for a court case that will settle the issue once and for all. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 17:40:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B2237B405; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22309; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:40:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:40:09 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15332.35855.130990.367688@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:30 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >So why did AOL go to court with The National Federation for the Blind? Because, unlike the DoJ, the Federation doesn't have infinite financial resources and Time Warner has billions. Also, the Federation tends to settle for fewer accommodations than its rival, the American Council of the Blind. So, AOL is probably quite glad to have an opportunity to participate in a case where it can exhaust its opponent's resources and then go for a weak settlement. >And where are all the web sites that have been fixed, or cases that >have been settled out of court because of this. A suit is rarely even filed. For example, a DoJ team came to our local City Hall not long ago and demanded all sorts of accommodations, some of them unreasonable. No suit was filed and it didn't even make the papers. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 18:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3ED6437B406 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 380 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 02:10:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:10:01 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 05:30 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > A suit is rarely even filed. For example, a DoJ team came to our > local City Hall not long ago and demanded all sorts of > accommodations, some of them unreasonable. No suit was filed > and it didn't even make the papers. It probably made the DoJ ADA enforcement newsletter, which tracks such things, and included - as of last May - exactly one case involving a web site. The DoJ's conclusion is the one that I quote, which is that there is *still* no firm decision as to whether or not the ADA applies to commercial web sites. If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. If all you have is the opinion you've been repeating, I'll continue taking the DoJ's over yours. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 20:54:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA98437B409; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23914; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:54:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103215324.0438fcf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 21:54:09 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:10 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. You can ask our City Manager if you'd like. He's one of many whom they've approached. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 21:10:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A4BA37B418 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3305 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 05:10:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.52683.355872.604434@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:10:35 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103215324.0438fcf0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103215324.0438fcf0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass types: > At 07:10 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. > You can ask our City Manager if you'd like. He's one of many whom > they've approached. I guess I should have been more specific. If you have real evidence that is relevant to the topic, I'd very much like to see it. Just to make it crystal clear, the topic is whether or not the ADA applies to commercial web sites. Everyone agress that it applies to web sites funded - even if only in part - by public funds. The documents posted on the DoJ web site indicate they believe that the ADA should apply to commercial web sites, but in their best legal opinion is still "maybe". You appear to believe that the ADA does applies to commercial web sites, based on nothing stronger than your opinion. If that's wrong, and you do have real evidence that the ADA applies to commercial web sites, I'd like to see it. I'm sure the DoJ would be interested as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 3 23:23:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6664637B416; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA47MtT83567; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:22:54 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c16501$8514f380$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike Meyer >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 6:10 PM >To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > > >Brett Glass types: >> At 05:30 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> A suit is rarely even filed. For example, a DoJ team came to our >> local City Hall not long ago and demanded all sorts of >> accommodations, some of them unreasonable. No suit was filed >> and it didn't even make the papers. > >It probably made the DoJ ADA enforcement newsletter, which tracks such >things, and included - as of last May - exactly one case involving a >web site. The DoJ's conclusion is the one that I quote, which is that >there is *still* no firm decision as to whether or not the ADA applies >to commercial web sites. > >If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. If all you >have is the opinion you've been repeating, I'll continue taking the >DoJ's over yours. > Let me throw in my $0.02 here: 1) Could you guys retitle this thread "ADA Website access" or something? NatWest disappeared a long time ago. Don't get me wrong I'm interested in how it comes out. 2) Getting back to NatWest, where is the evidence that IE is not blind accessible? For the sake of argument assume that ADA applies to commercial websites - well even if it did, it seems to me that there would only be grounds to sue if IE somehow could not be make blind-accessible. After all, consider a porno website - blind people aren't consumers of pornographic images and thus there is no access issue here, thus to make IE blind-accessible it would seem that all that would be necessary is to attach a braille terminal and get IE to work with it. Since blind people cannot by definition consume images, all that a braille terminal need display on a website is the textual information on the site. It may be cynical to say this but wouldn't it be cheaper if someone like AOL was sued for access problems, for them to simply work with Microsoft and release a blind-enabled IE than to redesign their many websites. Not only would it be cheaper but also profitable. 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for commercial websites, how would it apply if the website content was not about something that a blind person can use. For example, consider a Hewlett Packard HP Laserjet 4+. This device has a front panel that is triggered by buttons and used to select options on the printer. Depending on the option cards and SIMMS stuck in the printer the menues shown on the front panel are different. To get the printer options one must issue a test page that prints on a non-braille printout. Thus, there is no possible way that even if a blind person has all possible permutations of a LaserJet 4+ front panel menu memorized, plus all the buttons, that he or she can walk up to a HP Laserjet 4+ that he has never seen or used before and select options via the front panel because he has no way of knowing what menus will be displayed. Now, suppose I'm HP and operating under an ADA mandate, and I put out documentation for the HP Laserjet 4+ front panel on my website. Well, what possible use is it to make this documentation blind-accessible, because a blind person cannot use the front panel anyway even if they could read the docs, without assistance of a sighted person? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message