From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 17 1:21:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from arctic.icelab.net (arctic.icelab.net [198.49.247.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE3937B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (valence@localhost) by arctic.icelab.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBH9OZL73532; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:24:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from valence@symboliq.org) X-Authentication-Warning: arctic.icelab.net: valence owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:24:34 -0700 (MST) From: Valence Logrus X-X-Sender: To: Haikal Saadh Cc: "'Trish Lynch'" , "'Chris Coleman'" , Subject: RE: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <003401c1856f$fd1c9f20$90c801ca@warhawk> Message-ID: <20011217013906.G72797-100000@arctic.icelab.net> X-Files: The Truth is Out There K2Y: Is It 1970 Yet? X-Rated: Oh Yeah Baby X-Men: Wolverine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I can't go into all the specifics obviously but here are a few generalities anyhow: Last contract started: Mid-1997 Renewed several times since then, covering approximately 25+ sites where the machines are located More than 300 machine total under contract support, ~80% are E4500s The rest is storage in the form of D130s and T3s from Sun approximately 75% T3s, 25% D130s There were quite a few E3000s in use awhile back, but those have made way for E4500s As for the new line of "midframe" machines from Sun, I'm sure there is quite an order about to be placed to replace the older E4500s, but that won't happen for at least a year or more I suspect. Sorry I can't be more specific on the details as I happen to like my job. Solaris is pretty nasty when you start poking around in the code, but it works, and works pretty well all things considered. There is still quite a bit of BSD code left in Solaris, most people forget about the influence Bill Joy had on early sunos development. Believe it or not, several major contributions to Solaris by developers working for Sun have made their way into FreeBSD, for instance, the slab allocator. This may be way off in my short years, I am by no means a Donald Knuth type person, but I really doubt Exchange could be tweaked enough to handle Hotmail, if that was the case don't you suspect Monkeysoft would have already done that? There is a reason they use Sun en masse, intel based machines just don't scale as well as a SPARC based machine can. Sun uses technology straight out of Cray's wonderful development thinktanks, take a look at the SunFire 6800. You can pack 106 UltraSPARCs in this thing and up to 576GB of ram, ever see an Intel box that large? NT isn't being ported to any other platforms at the moment, and I doubt Scott McNealy would want NT on a SPARC , so forget about that nightmare. With as much rhetoric and slams on Bill that Scott comes up with, it's got to just burn Monkeysoft up that they have n other choice but to run Hotmail on Sun equipment. As flaky as that might sound, there is quite a rivalry between the two, and for pride's sake I'd say Bill really hates the fact their own crappy software can't take the load, that they must bow down in secret to Sun. Secret is out I guess though, ain't it :) -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Haikal Saadh wrote: =AD=AD=BB Do tell :) Or are you sworn to secrecy? =AD=AD=BB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 17 1:40:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F303B37B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBH9eER15461; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001601c186de$d4ad6680$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Valence Logrus" , "Haikal Saadh" Cc: "'Trish Lynch'" , "'Chris Coleman'" , References: <20011217013906.G72797-100000@arctic.icelab.net> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Valence writes: > This may be way off in my short years, I am by > no means a Donald Knuth type person, but I really > doubt Exchange could be tweaked enough to handle > Hotmail, if that was the case don't you suspect > Monkeysoft would have already done that? I agree, and I'm confident that this is why it _hasn't_ been done. Microsoft Exchange Server is a behemoth of a mail system, extremely well suited to homogenous, feature-rich, intraorganizational mail systems, but ill-suited to heterogenous, Internet-accessible, simple mail systems. It can't be both at the same time. Additionally, a weakness of Exchange is its dependency on a single monolithic database accessed via a DBMS with virtually no notions of commitment units, checkpoints, rollback, etc., and this weakness becomes more and more of an obstacle as the system is scaled up, as it takes a lot longer and causes a lot more trouble to restore a 60 GB database than it does to restore a 600 MB database. > ... it's got to just burn Monkeysoft up that they > have n other choice but to run Hotmail on Sun equipment. Most people at Microsoft don't have such a strong emotional attachment to their own products. I know it doesn't make the developers of Exchange happy, but the company as a whole is probably considerably more reasonable about it. You use the tool that does the job, after all. Hotmail really isn't seen as "real Microsoft" by much of the rest of the company, anyway--it's just part of MSN, one of Microsoft's investments. > As flaky as that might sound, there is quite a > rivalry between the two ... I've never noticed any rivalry. Sun probably thinks that such a rivalry exists, but Microsoft is much less likely to care. MS makes most of its money from desktop operating systems and sales of Microsoft Office, and Sun is not a presence in either domain. > ... and for pride's sake I'd say Bill really hates > the fact their own crappy software can't take the > load, that they must bow down in secret to Sun. As you've pointed out, part of it is a hardware limitation. Bill isn't a thirteen-year-old geek with more testosterone than brains, so I doubt that he is as emotional and irrational as you imply. If he were, he never would have reached the position he is in today, as people who think and act like children tend to be poor businessmen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 17 5:25:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from arctic.icelab.net (arctic.icelab.net [198.49.247.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8CD37B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (valence@localhost) by arctic.icelab.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBHDTdk76725; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:29:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from valence@symboliq.org) X-Authentication-Warning: arctic.icelab.net: valence owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:29:39 -0700 (MST) From: Valence Logrus X-X-Sender: To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Haikal Saadh , "'Trish Lynch'" , "'Chris Coleman'" , Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <001601c186de$d4ad6680$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011217061544.X76559-100000@arctic.icelab.net> X-Files: The Truth is Out There K2Y: Is It 1970 Yet? X-Rated: Oh Yeah Baby X-Men: Wolverine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB Bill isn't a thirteen-year-old geek with more testosterone than b= rains, so I =AD=AD=BB doubt that he is as emotional and irrational as you imply. If he= were, he =AD=AD=BB never would have reached the position he is in today, as people w= ho think =AD=AD=BB and act like children tend to be poor businessmen. =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB Emotional and irrational is an exaggeration, a rivalry does exist however, between Scott McNealy and Bill Gates, if only at surface level "just for fun". I don't think it's too fun for Bill, as Scott has himself testified several times against Microsoft during the antitrust hearings. Trade rags have constantly picked up sayings from Scott bashing Microsoft, as chairman of the board at Microsoft Bill has an opportunity to be annoyed by those comments. Whether he is or not I surely don't know. Microsoft may just use whatever gets the job done, but for Sun it's a different matter, as Sun has no reliance whatsoever on any Microsoft products, so the rivalry may just be a Sun thing, but it is amusing still. It's like the Harvard-MIT rivalry, there really isn't one formally, but the sophmoric persons on both sides still like to believe there is one. But this is a digression. We're advocating FreeBSD, not Solaris! I recall some previous discussion regarding Sun asking the FreeBSD core team about porting FreeBSD to the SPARC platform. Does anyone know if Sun has courted "FreeBSD" again since then? Sun flirts with Linux but really doesn't want to comit to it even as much as IBM has flirted with it. I'd really like to see the SPARC port efforts out there keep on going, I'm trying to do my part here and there, but it is a big p.i.t.a. The problems around SMP are the big issue it seems. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 17 9:54:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D9637B74F for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBHHr8R16859; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:53:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005f01c18723$b0af05f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Valence Logrus" Cc: "Haikal Saadh" , "'Trish Lynch'" , "'Chris Coleman'" , References: <20011217061544.X76559-100000@arctic.icelab.net> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:53:08 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Valence writes: > Emotional and irrational is an exaggeration, a > rivalry does exist however, between Scott McNealy > and Bill Gates, if only at surface level "just for > fun". The willingness of Sun to sue competitors--especially Microsoft--and lobby for government action against them would seem to indicate that it is more than "just for fun" for at least one party to this rivalry. If Sun spent as much on development as it spends on lawyers, it might already be even with Microsoft by now. > I don't think it's too fun for Bill ... I'm sure that Bill finds it tiring, as I would. > Trade rags have constantly picked up sayings > from Scott bashing Microsoft, as chairman of the > board at Microsoft Bill has an opportunity to be > annoyed by those comments. Note that trade rags never seem to pick up any sayings from Bill bashing Sun. > Whether he is or not I surely don't know. He probably has better things to do. > Microsoft may just use whatever gets the job done, > but for Sun it's a different matter ... That is apparent. Sun, Netscape, and a few other companies in competition with Microsoft frequently come across as loud whiners instead of producers. They are much more in the news for their bashing of Microsoft than for any accomplishments of their own. > It's like the Harvard-MIT rivalry, there really > isn't one formally, but the sophmoric persons on > both sides still like to believe there is one. Sophomoric being the operative word here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 7: 0: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (mail3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EAC337B42F for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.92.168.141] (helo=tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16GLii-0001Ij-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:59:52 +0000 Received: from modem-638.charmeleon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.81.126] helo=dedog.argus-systems.co.uk) by tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16GLih-0004A0-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:59:51 +0000 Received: (from fergus@localhost) by dedog.argus-systems.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.1) id fBIEhGA00990; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:43:16 GMT (envelope-from fergus) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:43:16 +0000 From: Fergus Cameron To: Terry Lambert Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Message-ID: <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 08:28:35AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > for Passport(tm) integration), and the other integrated services. sorry but when the @%$# did 'passport' become a trademark. i'm pretty sure i've had one for some time. please tell me this isn't true. -- Fergus Cameron Tel: +447779236010 Fax: +447980681864 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 8:18:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9070437B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:18:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0381.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.126] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GMwr-0001H4-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:18:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:18:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fergus Cameron Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Fergus Cameron wrote: > > > for Passport(tm) integration), and the other integrated services. > > sorry but when the @%$# did 'passport' become a trademark. i'm pretty > sure i've had one for some time. > > please tell me this isn't true. Microsoft(R) .NET(R) Passport .NET Passport(R) See also the trade dress on http://www.passport.com/ . Sorry if it was confusing... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 8:59:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F937B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBIGxFR20413; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:59:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00b201c187e5$54138330$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Fergus Cameron" Cc: References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:59:15 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Microsoft(R) .NET(R) Passport > .NET Passport(R) Microsoft is a registered trademark of Microsoft corporation. .NET, Passport, and .NET Passport are not trademarks. > See also the trade dress on http://www.passport.com/ . Notice that the terms mentioned above do not carry trademark bugs on the site. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 9:11:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156EE37B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0381.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.126] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GNmC-0005TQ-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:11:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F78C9.77B9ADD9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:11:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> <00b201c187e5$54138330$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > See also the trade dress on http://www.passport.com/ . > > Notice that the terms mentioned above do not carry trademark bugs on the > site. Not as clear as you seem to want to make it out to be: http://www.passportimages.com/1033/PassportLogo140x44.gif http://www.microsoft.com/myservices/hls_net.gif -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 9:32:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F7C37B41F for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBIHWcR20524; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:32:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00c401c187e9$fe3d8960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Fergus Cameron" , References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> <00b201c187e5$54138330$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1F78C9.77B9ADD9@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:32:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My information comes directly from Microsoft. They ought to know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Lambert" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Fergus Cameron" ; Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 18:11 Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > See also the trade dress on http://www.passport.com/ . > > > > Notice that the terms mentioned above do not carry trademark bugs on the > > site. > > Not as clear as you seem to want to make it out to be: > > http://www.passportimages.com/1033/PassportLogo140x44.gif > http://www.microsoft.com/myservices/hls_net.gif > > -- Terry > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 13:23:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A68337B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBILNFR21137; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:23:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00e001c1880a$356a3d50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Fergus Cameron" , References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> <00b201c187e5$54138330$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1F78C9.77B9ADD9@mindspring.com> <00c401c187e9$fe3d8960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1F9901.C61A0497@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:23:15 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > What part of "those URL references are Microsoft > domain registrations and that artwork is Microsoft > artwork" aren't you understanding? I understood all of it; but as I've explained, I've already examined Microsoft's official list of trademarks. Neither Passport nor .NET is trademarked. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 13:38:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msximc1.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc1.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD7337B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1upmc-msximc1.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:37:18 -0500 Message-ID: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Anthony Atkielski' , Terry Lambert Cc: Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:37:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1880C.2B6E7990" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1880C.2B6E7990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" the status of .net is that it is pending trademark. Federal serial number is 78012936 filed: June 15, 2000 could not find anyhting on passport for microsoft but there where over 140 requests to register passport so I just did feel like looking at them all. Roderick P. Person Programmer II personrp@ccbh.com 'I really miss the rollerskating Satanists with their Nephilim sweatbands from the old days.' - Volker Freitag > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] > Sent: December 18, 2001 4:23 PM > To: Terry Lambert > Cc: Fergus Cameron; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > > > Terry writes: > > > What part of "those URL references are Microsoft > > domain registrations and that artwork is Microsoft > > artwork" aren't you understanding? > > I understood all of it; but as I've explained, I've already examined > Microsoft's official list of trademarks. Neither Passport nor .NET is > trademarked. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1880C.2B6E7990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD!

the status of .net is that it is pending = trademark.
Federal serial number is 78012936
filed: June 15, 2000

could not find anyhting on passport for microsoft but = there where over 140 requests to register passport so I just did feel = like looking at them all.

Roderick P. Person
Programmer II
personrp@ccbh.com

'I really miss the rollerskating Satanists with their = Nephilim sweatbands
from the old days.'
- Volker Freitag



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atk= ielski.com]
> Sent: December 18, 2001 4:23 PM
> To: Terry Lambert
> Cc: Fergus Cameron; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs = FreeBSD!
>
>
> Terry writes:
>
> > What part of "those URL references = are Microsoft
> > domain registrations and that artwork is = Microsoft
> > artwork" aren't you = understanding?
>
> I understood all of it; but as I've explained, = I've already examined
> Microsoft's official list of trademarks.  = Neither Passport nor .NET is
> trademarked.
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to = majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" = in the body of the message
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1880C.2B6E7990-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 14:29:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C52A37B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0188.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.188] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GSjz-0006Zu-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:29:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:29:39 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: 'Anthony Atkielski' , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Person, Roderick" wrote: > the status of .net is that it is pending trademark. > Federal serial number is 78012936 > filed: June 15, 2000 Thanks for doing the research, since Anthony would not accept use of the term with the trademark registration symbol following it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 14:33:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F4837B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBIMXAR21313; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:33:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00f401c18813$f9aaa1b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Person, Roderick" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Fergus Cameron" , References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:33:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Roderick writes: > the status of .net is that it is pending trademark. > Federal serial number is 78012936 > filed: June 15, 2000 Trademarks cannot be pending; either they exist, or they don't. Only trademark _registrations_ can be pending. The application that you reference appears to be having a bit of trouble; given its very broad claim and the absence of a clear history of prior use, that would not surprise me. That may be why Microsoft does not appear to be asserting trademark status for it currently (it is not on Microsoft's trademark list). Microsoft doesn't even seem to have tried to register Passport, which is probably wise, since a number of other registrations conflict with the one they'd probably wish to use. And here again, MS does not appear to assert trademark status for the word, and does not include it on its trademark list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 14:43:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50B937B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:43:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBIMh0R21334; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:43:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Person, Roderick" Cc: "Fergus Cameron" , References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:43:01 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Thanks for doing the research, since Anthony would > not accept use of the term with the trademark > registration symbol following it. I did the same research, but I recognized it as irrelevant. No trademark registrations have been issued for Passport or .NET to Microsoft; none are pending for Passport, many are pending for .NET as text and as a logo, but none have been completed. In the meantime, as I said, Microsoft is not asserting trademark status for .NET or Passport. You'll note that it is absent from lists of trademarks on the Microsoft site, and from Microsoft's official list of trademarks. I haven't seen any use of the term with a trademark symbol following it, including your examples. In fact, I've specifically looked for this, and I've been unable to find it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 15:14: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16E837B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.227.180]) by mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011218231402.XDTA941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@columbia> for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:14:02 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: Subject: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:13:54 -0500 Message-ID: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey folks, I thought this was FreeBSD-Advocacy... not what appears to be Microsoft Copyright, Patent, Trademark and Service mark discussion. At any rate, what's the status of the rights to the FreeBSD name, etc.? Are the rights being transferred to the FreeBSD Foundation by Wind River or what's the deal? --- Andy P.S. When replying to the second part, please change the subject name. Thank you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 18: 9: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F80037B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0252.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.252] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GW9w-0003Tk-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:08:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:08:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I haven't seen any use of the term with a trademark symbol following it, > including your examples. In fact, I've specifically looked for this, and > I've been unable to find it. A trademark does not have to be registered to be a trademark. You need to read up on trademark law. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 18:13:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femme.sapphite.org (cc2219923-b.erlght1.md.home.com [65.9.33.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF9E37B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (trish@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fBJ2CME2006204; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (trish@localhost) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id fBJ2CHrD006201; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:12:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: femme.sapphite.org: trish owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:12:17 -0500 (EST) From: Trish Lynch X-X-Sender: To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Person, Roderick" , Terry Lambert , Fergus Cameron , Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <00f401c18813$f9aaa1b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011218210943.D364-100000@femme.sapphite.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Beside the facts that trademarks have to be used in a very specific way: for example: .NET Passport could not be used as a trademark .NET Passport Online Registration System (or whatever it is) could be. I had discussions at length with an IP lawyer about this several months ago when I was doing research for what would have been the Open Source Trade Foundation, a non-profit to help manage IP for the Open Source community. -Trish On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Roderick writes: > > > the status of .net is that it is pending trademark. > > Federal serial number is 78012936 > > filed: June 15, 2000 > > Trademarks cannot be pending; either they exist, or they don't. Only > trademark _registrations_ can be pending. > > The application that you reference appears to be having a bit of trouble; > given its very broad claim and the absence of a clear history of prior use, > that would not surprise me. That may be why Microsoft does not appear to be > asserting trademark status for it currently (it is not on Microsoft's > trademark list). > > Microsoft doesn't even seem to have tried to register Passport, which is > probably wise, since a number of other registrations conflict with the one > they'd probably wish to use. And here again, MS does not appear to assert > trademark status for the word, and does not include it on its trademark > list. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net FreeBSD The Power to Serve Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 18:15:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from glow.radioactivedata.org (glow.radioactivedata.org [199.232.41.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 31D0637B419 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 95920 invoked by uid 7770); 19 Dec 2001 01:59:01 -0000 Received: from localhost.radioactivedata.org (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.radioactivedata.org with SMTP; 19 Dec 2001 01:59:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:59:01 -0500 (EST) From: Mike DeGraw-Bertsch X-X-Sender: To: Terry Lambert Cc: Anthony Atkielski , "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That is true, but Microsoft's list (available at http://www.microsoft.com/trademarks/docs/mstmark.rtf) is "a current list of all of Microsoft's trademarks" [registered and unregistered] (http://www.microsoft.com/trademarks/t-mark/names.htm). The only mention of .NET is the .NET logo, and Passport is the Passport logo. No trademark, registered or otherwise, of the phrase ".NET" or "Passport." All according to Microsoft, who must defend their trademarks or lose them, so I think they'd list them. -Mike --- Michael S. DeGraw-Bertsch http:///www.radioactivedata.org On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > I haven't seen any use of the term with a trademark symbol following it, > > including your examples. In fact, I've specifically looked for this, and > > I've been unable to find it. > > A trademark does not have to be registered to be a trademark. You > need to read up on trademark law. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 18:18: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EBC37B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0252.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.252] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GWIz-0000UY-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:18:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:18:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Andrew C. Hornback" wrote: > > Hey folks, > > I thought this was FreeBSD-Advocacy... not what appears to be Microsoft > Copyright, Patent, Trademark and Service mark discussion. Anthony is pretty much here (and on -chat) as a Microsoft appologist and advocate. Basically, it's OK for FreeBSD to be anywhere Microsoft doesn't currently want, but if you try and push it somewhere they've peed (or Apple tries to push it in one of those places), then it's "obviously ill suited, and can never be made to work" (paraphrasing). When I attended the Microsoft Active SErver Design Preview for my (then) company, it was incredibly amusing to watch the various Microsoft groups present. They would come in, tell you the part of the pie they owned, and then present a list of where third parties had opportunity to add value. Only when all the various Microsoft groups were done presenting, they had totally mapped the problem space with Microsoft products, so there was _no_ room for third parties to add value. You'd think they would have had a meeting before the presentations and at least carved out a token "safe area" of the playground, a sand box or swing set, where third parties were allowed to play. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 18:39:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6801A37B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0252.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.252] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GWdo-0002mg-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:39:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:39:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike DeGraw-Bertsch Cc: Anthony Atkielski , "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike DeGraw-Bertsch wrote: > > That is true, but Microsoft's list (available at > http://www.microsoft.com/trademarks/docs/mstmark.rtf) is "a current list > of all of Microsoft's trademarks" [registered and unregistered] > (http://www.microsoft.com/trademarks/t-mark/names.htm). Their list doesn't list common law trademarks for .NET and Passport because you have to show use over time. The incomplete registration shows their clear intent, in any case. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 18:41:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtbaker.tfm.com (mtbaker.tfm.com [192.231.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2908637B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from db@localhost) by mtbaker.tfm.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fBJ2f8U16636; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:41:08 -0800 (PST) From: Diane Bruce Message-Id: <200112190241.fBJ2f8U16636@mtbaker.tfm.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? In-Reply-To: <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> "from Terry Lambert at Dec 18, 2001 06:18:02 pm" To: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:41:08 -0800 (PST) Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL78 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert says: > "Andrew C. Hornback" wrote: ... > Anthony is pretty much here (and on -chat) as a Microsoft > appologist and advocate. He uses a non standard character set which I cannot be bothered to decode. If he switches to a standard character set, I guess I'll be able to read him. So what has he been saying anyway? Oh never mind. I don't think I want to know. -- Diane Bruce, http://www.db.net/~db db@db.net --- I got bored with the last witty aphorism. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 19:34:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtph.ha-net.ptd.net (smtph.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE6B237B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 32624 invoked by uid 50005); 19 Dec 2001 03:20:30 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtph with qmail-scanner-1.00 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4176. . Clean. Processed in 0.579082 secs); 19 Dec 2001 03:20:30 -0000 Received: from du196.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.196]) (envelope-sender ) by smtph.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Dec 2001 03:20:29 -0000 Message-ID: <3C200AAA.C3A6E7C8@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:34:02 -0500 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <20011218210943.D364-100000@femme.sapphite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Trish Lynch wrote: > > Beside the facts that trademarks have to be used in a very specific way: > > for example: .NET Passport could not be used as a trademark > .NET Passport Online Registration System (or whatever it is) > could be. In other words, trademarks are adjectives, not nouns. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 20:19:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2F437B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ4JCR22662; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:19:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013001c18844$50a922e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:19:12 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > A trademark does not have to be registered > to be a trademark. But a company must assert it to be a trademark, and must actively use and defend it. A failure to use and defend a trademark or a failure to call it a trademark may allow it to fall into the public domain. > You need to read up on trademark law. I have; how else would I know these things? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 20:22: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DB437B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ4LwR22676; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:21:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:21:58 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Anthony is pretty much here (and on -chat) as a > Microsoft appologist and advocate. That is your opinion, and not an established fact. > Basically, it's OK for FreeBSD to be anywhere > Microsoft doesn't currently want, but if you try > and push it somewhere they've peed (or Apple tries > to push it in one of those places), then it's > "obviously ill suited, and can never be made > to work" (paraphrasing). Who are you paraphrasing? I don't believe Microsoft has made any statements either way about FreeBSD. No flavor of UNIX has any significant share of the desktop market; in fact, all flavors of UNIX put together do not have a significant share of that market. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 20:28:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BB537B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ4RxR22694; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:27:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Mike DeGraw-Bertsch" Cc: "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:27:59 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Their list doesn't list common law trademarks > for .NET and Passport because you have to show > use over time. If Microsoft were using and intended these as trademarks, it would list them, even for a common-law assertion of trademark status. They are not stupid enough to deliberately or even accidentally omit two marks that would be potentially crucial to their future strategy from their trademark list if they really intended to treat them as trademarks. Their failure to list them, along with their conspicuous failure to treat them as such in every other context I've examined, implies that they do not consider them trademarks and do not plan to defend them as such. Especially when contrasted with their treatment of other potential and established trademarks, this alone argues for a loss of any common-law status these two marks might have. > The incomplete registration shows their clear > intent, in any case. If they were established as common-law trademarks, they wouldn't need to show intent. And only one attempt to register a trademark is being made, for .NET as a typed drawing. That application does not show prior or current commercial use of the mark. I could find no application for Passport. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 21:42:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B5D37B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0514.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.4] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GZV0-0002Wz-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:42:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2028CE.93B730A8@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:42:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> <013001c18844$50a922e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Terry writes: > > > A trademark does not have to be registered to be a trademark. > > But a company must assert it to be a trademark, and must actively use and > defend it. A failure to use and defend a trademark or a failure to call it > a trademark may allow it to fall into the public domain. > > > You need to read up on trademark law. > > I have; how else would I know these things? Microsoft _is_ asserting it. They have filed for registration, and the artwork I referred you to earlier has the trademark symbol following ".NET". For it to be a common law trademark, it requires active use; until recently, it wasn't deployed, so it could hardly be actively used. They only need to "defend" it if it's "attacked". "Failure to call it a trademark"... you mean, like not attempting formal registration (as they have), and/or not putting the little symbol after it in the artwork (as they did in the .GIF I gave you the URL for)? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 21:44:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D965437B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0514.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.4] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GZX7-0004H4-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:44:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:44:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > Anthony is pretty much here (and on -chat) as a > > Microsoft appologist and advocate. > > That is your opinion, and not an established fact. > > > Basically, it's OK for FreeBSD to be anywhere > > Microsoft doesn't currently want, but if you try > > and push it somewhere they've peed (or Apple tries > > to push it in one of those places), then it's > > "obviously ill suited, and can never be made > > to work" (paraphrasing). > > Who are you paraphrasing? I don't believe Microsoft has made any statements > either way about FreeBSD. No flavor of UNIX has any significant share of > the desktop market; in fact, all flavors of UNIX put together do not have a > significant share of that market. I'm paraphrasing you. And that last statement pretty well establishes it, doesn't it? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 21:52:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D2937B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0514.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.4] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GZeS-0002nX-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:52:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C202B18.4F1AEA2C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:52:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike DeGraw-Bertsch , "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: [ ... the ".NET" trademark issue ... ] > Their failure to list > them, along with their conspicuous failure to treat them as such in every > other context I've examined, implies that they do not consider them > trademarks and do not plan to defend them as such. Or maybe it means you can't see the little symbol to the right of the "t" in "Net" in this GIF: http://www.passportimages.com/1033/PassportLogo140x44.gif ??? > > The incomplete registration shows their clear > > intent, in any case. > > If they were established as common-law trademarks, they wouldn't need to > show intent. Common law trademarks do not magically appear by fiat. In additiona, registration conveys a number of protections which are not otherwise available, as well as a number of legal remedies. > And only one attempt to register a trademark is being made, > for .NET as a typed drawing. That application does not show prior or > current commercial use of the mark. Of course it doesn't. Where do you think baby trademarks come from in the first place?!? > I could find no application for Passport. Did you examine all 124 applications that appear to be outstanding with the same dilligence you appear to have used in the examination of the ".NET" GIF image trademark symbol to the right of the "t"? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22: 5:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF0437B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ657R22937; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:05:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016c01c18853$1c781760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> <013001c18844$50a922e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2028CE.93B730A8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:05:04 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Microsoft _is_ asserting it. They are not marking it as a trademark or identifying it as such in their published literature. To adequately protect a trademark, you must identify it as such, lest it tend to fall into the public domain. > They have filed for registration ... Only for the word .NET. > ... and the artwork I referred you to earlier > has the trademark symbol following ".NET". It's impossible to identify what symbol follows the word .NET in the artwork you cited, but in any case, the artwork represents a logo (for which MS does indeed assert trademark), not text (for which MS does not assert trademark). > For it to be a common law trademark, it requires > active use; until recently, it wasn't deployed, > so it could hardly be actively used. Then it is obviously not a common-law trademark. > They only need to "defend" it if it's "attacked". They need to actively identify it as a trademark. That's what the TM and (R) bugs are for. > "Failure to call it a trademark"... you mean, > like not attempting formal registration ... No, I mean as in not identifying it as a trademark in their published literature. When you look at the list of trademarks on typical pages, for example, they explicitly identify the logos as trademarks, but not the words Passport or .NET. This is consistent with their official list of trademarks, on which .NET and Passport do not appear. > ... (as they have) ... They have only filed for .NET. > ... and/or not putting the little symbol after it > in the artwork (as they did in the .GIF I gave you > the URL for)? A logo (artwork) is not the same as text in trademark law. They can and must be separately trademarked. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22: 6: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1BC37B41E for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ65sR22946; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:05:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016f01c18853$3820eeb0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:05:54 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > I'm paraphrasing you. So you are not quoting me. > And that last statement pretty well establishes > it, doesn't it? Establishes what? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22:10:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC7A37B41C for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ6AgR22961; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:10:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <017401c18853$e44cdc30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike DeGraw-Bertsch" , "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202B18.4F1AEA2C@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:10:43 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Or maybe it means you can't see the little > symbol to the right of the "t" in "Net" in > this GIF: There appears to be something to the right of the "t," but it is not identifiable. If it is not identiable, it has no meaning. > Common law trademarks do not magically appear > by fiat. No, they appear through active use of a mark as a trademark. > Of course it doesn't. Where do you think > baby trademarks come from in the first place?!? Normally, a trademark is first established as such through regular use and association with a product or service. The trademark is then registered on the basis of this established use. This is the way it works in the U.S.; other jurisdictions may work in the opposite way (registration being required before active use, not after). > Did you examine all 124 applications that > appear to be outstanding ... Yes, I did. None was submitted by Microsoft. > ... with the same dilligence you appear to have > used in the examination of the ".NET" GIF image > trademark symbol to the right of the "t"? Yes. There is no identifiable symbol next to the "t." Furthermore, as I have explained several times, logos and typed drawings (text) are trademarked separately. The trademark symbol you postulate, if any, would most likely apply to the logotype, not the text itself. Tell me, what is that symbol next to the "t"? It is a TM, or a (R), or something else? And how do you know? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22:32: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6517037B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0514.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.4] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GaGd-0003YY-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:31:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C203457.1988AC2E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:31:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> <013001c18844$50a922e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2028CE.93B730A8@mindspring.com> <016c01c18853$1c781760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > ... and the artwork I referred you to earlier > > has the trademark symbol following ".NET". > > It's impossible to identify what symbol follows the word .NET in the artwork > you cited, but in any case, the artwork represents a logo (for which MS does > indeed assert trademark), not text (for which MS does not assert trademark). Ugh. "They aren't asserting it" ... "They are doing something which might be construed as asserting it, but what they are doing is not sufficiently identifiable" ... "It's identifiable, but it's an assertion on a logo". Prithee... why is there a symbol to the right of the "t" in "Microsoft", as well, if the GIF image in its entirey is a logo on which a single trademark assertion is being made? > > For it to be a common law trademark, it requires > > active use; until recently, it wasn't deployed, > > so it could hardly be actively used. > > Then it is obviously not a common-law trademark. It is now. > > They only need to "defend" it if it's "attacked". > > They need to actively identify it as a trademark. That's what the TM and > (R) bugs are for. See the GIF. ... I have an idea... why don't you assert that ".NET" and "Passport" are in common use, so that a company which could take just their research budget for last year, and pay every U.S. Senator and Representative 10 million dollars each, can become pissed off at _you_. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22:33:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F3037B419 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0514.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.4] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GaHp-0004PR-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:33:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2034A1.386D6046@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:33:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <016f01c18853$3820eeb0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > I'm paraphrasing you. > > So you are not quoting me. That depends on what the meaning if "is" is??? What part of the definition of the word "paraphrasing" do you want me to explain? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22:44:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA6837B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0514.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.4] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GaSJ-0003wh-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:43:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3C20372B.E93291B9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:43:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike DeGraw-Bertsch , "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202B18.4F1AEA2C@mindspring.com> <017401c18853$e44cdc30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > Or maybe it means you can't see the little > > symbol to the right of the "t" in "Net" in > > this GIF: > > There appears to be something to the right of the "t," but it is not > identifiable. If it is not identiable, it has no meaning. Then look around, and find one where it is more identifiable. I've already probided you with URLs to the effect that the trademark symbol in the image on ".NET" is readily identifiable. > > Of course it doesn't. Where do you think > > baby trademarks come from in the first place?!? > > Normally, a trademark is first established as such through regular use and > association with a product or service. The trademark is then registered on > the basis of this established use. This is the way it works in the U.S.; > other jurisdictions may work in the opposite way (registration being > required before active use, not after). Luckily, we are looking at the regular use of the terms ".NET" and "Passport" with respect to a Microsoft service offering, and Microsoft is a U.S. company. What you describe as the requirement is the behaviour I claim Microsoft is exhibiting. > Yes. There is no identifiable symbol next to the "t." > > Furthermore, as I have explained several times, logos and typed drawings > (text) are trademarked separately. The trademark symbol you postulate, if > any, would most likely apply to the logotype, not the text itself. > > Tell me, what is that symbol next to the "t"? It is a TM, or a (R), or > something else? And how do you know? I looked at the other reference I posted, as you obviously haven't. It is clearly an (R). Perhaps you need better glasses, or a bigger picture shoved in your face, as you appear to be unwilling to look for pictures on your own: http://www.passportimages.com/1033/dotnetlogoBIG.gif Note that the registration is on the word, not the image, as it has seperate symbols for both words. My best guess is that the registration tagging is premature on their part, but the information about the status of the registration may be dated, since the USPTO states that the information on their site may lag reality. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22:48:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D832837B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ6mRR23051; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:48:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018901c18859$297fc1f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <016f01c18853$3820eeb0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2034A1.386D6046@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:47:48 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Terry writes: > > > I'm paraphrasing you. > > > > So you are not quoting me. > > That depends on what the meaning if "is" is??? No, it does not. You said "I'm paraphrasing you." If you are paraphrasing me, you cannot be quoting me. > What part of the definition of the word > "paraphrasing" do you want me to explain? None. See above. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 18 22:55:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127C537B41F for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ6soR23068; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:54:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018a01c1885a$0e41c4f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike DeGraw-Bertsch" , "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202B18.4F1AEA2C@mindspring.com> <017401c18853$e44cdc30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C20372B.E93291B9@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:54:50 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Then look around, and find one where it is > more identifiable. I have, and I have found nothing. > I've already probided you with URLs to the effect > that the trademark symbol in the image on ".NET" > is readily identifiable. I looked at them, and could not identify the mark to which you appear to be referring. > Luckily, we are looking at the regular use of > the terms ".NET" and "Passport" with respect to > a Microsoft service offering, and Microsoft > is a U.S. company. Yes, and so the normal procedure would be to register the trademark only after it has been properly and continuously used for some significant period of time. > What you describe as the requirement is the > behaviour I claim Microsoft is exhibiting. I know. The problem is that you have provided no evidence for your claim. > I looked at the other reference I posted, as > you obviously haven't. It is clearly an (R). It isn't clearly anything. In fact, upon very close examination, it appears to be part of the letter "t," and not a separate symbol at all. However, even in the "large" GIF to which you refer, the symbol, if any, is only two pixels across--far too small to distinguish the glyph that might have produced it. > Note that the registration is on the word, > not the image, as it has seperate symbols > for both words. I don't see a recognizable bug for either. I suspect that what is actually intended is either Microsoft(R) .NET for text, or Microsoft(R) .NET(tm) for the text/logotype and the logotype--probably the former. > My best guess is that the registration tagging > is premature on their part ... You should not guess; that's what started this thread in the first place. > ... but the information about the status of the > registration may be dated, since the USPTO states > that the information on their site may lag reality. A third possiblity is that you are simply incorrect. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 0:40:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D01E37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0155.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.155] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GcGe-0002Wa-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:40:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3C20525F.39AEBFD5@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:39:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> <013001c18844$50a922e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2028CE.93B730A8@mindspring.com> <016c01c18853$1c781760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C203457.1988AC2E@mindspring.com> <018801c18859$297b0700$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Microsoft--the text and the logotype--are separate trademarks. In many > cases, particularly when you see the bug after Microsoft, only Microsoft is > actually trademarked, not the entire text shown. So when I see the same after "Microsoft" and ".NET", and that is true of "Microsoft", then... > > See the GIF. > > There is no identifiable TM or (R) in the GIF. You're wrong. It's a circled "R" symbol. P.S.: Passport is a common law trademark of their single sign-on system, and I would be very surprised if it were not granted on that basis, should they requuest it. Note also that part of the license agreement for the Passport SDL is that you not attempt to register it as a trademark in other countries. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 0:41:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC4E37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0155.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.155] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GcHl-00031i-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:41:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2052A4.4724805B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:41:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <016f01c18853$3820eeb0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2034A1.386D6046@mindspring.com> <018901c18859$297fc1f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > No, it does not. You said "I'm paraphrasing you." If you are paraphrasing > me, you cannot be quoting me. I never said I was quoting you. > > What part of the definition of the word > > "paraphrasing" do you want me to explain? > > None. See above. I saw above, and I still don't see where I was purportedly quoting you. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 0:45:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEE737B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0155.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.155] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GcLQ-0004dZ-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:44:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3C205387.5E3EF927@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:44:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike DeGraw-Bertsch , "Person, Roderick" , Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202B18.4F1AEA2C@mindspring.com> <017401c18853$e44cdc30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C20372B.E93291B9@mindspring.com> <018a01c1885a$0e41c4f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > What you describe as the requirement is the > > behaviour I claim Microsoft is exhibiting. > > I know. The problem is that you have provided no evidence for your claim. Luckily, Occam's Razor is on my side. You have not provided any evidence that they are exhibiting trademark establishing behaviour as part of some subtrefuge, rather than in an attempt to establish the trademark. Barring evidence to the contrary, I think I will take their efforts at face value. > > I looked at the other reference I posted, as > > you obviously haven't. It is clearly an (R). > > It isn't clearly anything. In fact, upon very close examination, it appears > to be part of the letter "t," and not a separate symbol at all. However, > even in the "large" GIF to which you refer, the symbol, if any, is only two > pixels across--far too small to distinguish the glyph that might have > produced it. You're willfully ignoring it. > > ... but the information about the status of the > > registration may be dated, since the USPTO states > > that the information on their site may lag reality. > > A third possiblity is that you are simply incorrect. That's highly unlikely, given my track record. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 0:48:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB8037B491 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:48:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ8lvR23457; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:47:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01c501c18869$dbaf31c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A668822@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> <3C1FC353.7D81C2CA@mindspring.com> <00f901c18815$596fbb70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1FF6A6.B7167372@mindspring.com> <013001c18844$50a922e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2028CE.93B730A8@mindspring.com> <016c01c18853$1c781760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C203457.1988AC2E@mindspring.com> <018801c18859$297b0700$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C20525F.39AEBFD5@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:47:52 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > So when I see the same after "Microsoft" and > ".NET", and that is true of "Microsoft", then... You actually don't see either, at least in the images you cited as examples. It is reasonable to assume, based on other sources, that Microsoft actually does have a (R) bug next to it, blurry though it may be; but this assumption is not necessarily valid for .NET, since the bug is not present for this latter term elsewhere. > You're wrong. It's a circled "R" symbol. It's only two pixels wide; it's not anything recognizable at all. > P.S.: Passport is a common law trademark of > their single sign-on system ... That is debatable, and in any case, they do not appear to be asserting it as such. > ... and I would be very surprised if it were > not granted on that basis, should they requuest > it. Irrelevant, since they have not requested it. > Note also that part of the license agreement > for the Passport SDL is that you not attempt > to register it as a trademark in other countries. That does not mean that Microsoft considers it a trademark of their own. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 1: 4:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3805E37B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJ94WR23502; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:04:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01ca01c1886c$2d6eb4c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike DeGraw-Bertsch" , "Person, Roderick" , "Fergus Cameron" , References: <3C1FFDE5.90B751FE@mindspring.com> <014001c18845$8a87ef90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202B18.4F1AEA2C@mindspring.com> <017401c18853$e44cdc30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C20372B.E93291B9@mindspring.com> <018a01c1885a$0e41c4f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C205387.5E3EF927@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:04:33 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Luckily, Occam's Razor is on my side. Only if you ignore the evidence. There is a clear discrepancy between the way MS treats its other trademarks in its publications, and the way it treats Passport and .NET. For example, other trademarks are consistently bugged in text with either TM or (R), as appropriate, whereas Passport and .NET are not. If Microsoft's intention is to establish these latter two as trademarks, then their failure to mark them as such, even while showing due diligence in marking other trademarks, is sufficiently negligent to place any claim they might make to trademark status in serious doubt. > You have not provided any evidence that they > are exhibiting trademark establishing > behaviour as part of some subtrefuge, > rather than in an attempt to establish the > trademark. But that's just it: They are _not_ making any apparent attempt to establish these words as trademarks. > Barring evidence to the contrary, I think > I will take their efforts at face value. They haven't made any efforts. > You're willfully ignoring it. No, I'm looking at it as a court would look at it. Just as a license agreement printed in type so small that it cannot be identified, even under a magnifying glass, would not be enforceable, so a glyph so indistinct as to be unidentifiable cannot be used to qualify artwork or text. For example, the distinction between a registered and unregistered trademark is important, and a glyph so indistinct as to make it impossible to determine which of the two (if either) is being referenced is of no practical utility or validity. > That's highly unlikely, given my track record. Your track record here is one of the reasons why I raise this possibility. In fact, I knew exactly what you would do before you did it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 1:25:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phalse.2600.com (phalse.2600.COM [216.66.24.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2776537B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by phalse.2600.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA24332 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 04:25:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 04:25:37 -0500 (EST) From: Dominick LaTrappe To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG DIE, MICROSOFT THREAD... DIE ! DIE !! DIE !!%Q#*^ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 1:32:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C787E37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2841 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 09:32:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Dec 2001 09:32:10 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:31:56 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Dominick LaTrappe Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19-Dec-01 Dominick LaTrappe wrote: > > > DIE, MICROSOFT THREAD... > > > DIE ! DIE !! DIE !!%Q#*^ Agreed, this is freebsd-advocacy, not Terry vs. Anthony. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 2:15:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA96237B41A; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0103.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.103] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GdlC-00025r-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:15:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2068C9.BF7F7E7D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:15:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Dominick LaTrappe , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > Agreed, this is freebsd-advocacy, not Terry vs. Anthony. FWIW, I agree, and will not respond to the Microsoft troll any more in -advocacy. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 9:42:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 72E2837B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 99463 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 17:42:28 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 2001 17:42:28 -0000 Message-ID: <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:42:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Basically, it's OK for FreeBSD to be anywhere Microsoft doesn't >currently want, but if you try and push it somewhere they've peed >(or Apple tries to push it in one of those places), then it's >"obviously ill suited, and can never be made to work" (paraphrasing). > > Anthony is pretty much here (and on -chat) as a > Microsoft appologist and advocate. > > I'm paraphrasing you. > > And that last statement pretty well establishes it, doesn't it? What the hell is this, if you don't support The Cause 100%, you're one of the enemy ? This makes me sick. Do you have to hate Microsoft and agree with everything they're accused of in order to support FreeBSD ? What the hell are we now, linux-advocacy ? FreeBSD stands on it's own merits, not by detracting from others. Everyone can have their own opinions about where Microsoft succeeds and where FreeBSD succeeds. And as for the person who asked if this was Microsoft-advocacy, what exactly are you thinking ? That there can be a discussion of FreeBSD advocacy without talking about the alternatives ? Rather than making any points about anything, it just seems like people are characterizing other people and attacking them for any affections they might have for Microsoft. Let me say this again: FreeBSD stands on it's own merits, not by detracting from others. I'm a Win32 API programmer that uses Windows 2000 or XP on the desktop. I love Office XP. However, I have two huge FreeBSD servers at my feet that I just setup for a contract, when I'm moonlighting on my job as a FreeBSD admin. If you can't accept that both operating systems have their own merits, or you think that FreeBSD is the end-all solution to everything, you don't make a good advocate for FreeBSD and should unsubscribe from the list. I am an advocate of FreeBSD, and I have converted many people. But I didn't do it by being a prick-face-Microsoft-sucks-ass-FreeBSD-rules-all moron. I leave that kind of crap for the Linux kiddies. Don't characterize other people as Microsoft-lovers just because they don't agree with all of your MS hate. You don't have to hate Microsoft to love FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 9:45:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCB1837B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 99495 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 17:45:16 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 2001 17:45:16 -0000 Message-ID: <005501c188b5$002a39f0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <016f01c18853$3820eeb0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2034A1.386D6046@mindspring.com> <018901c18859$297fc1f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C2052A4.4724805B@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:45:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > No, it does not. You said "I'm paraphrasing you." If you are paraphrasing > > me, you cannot be quoting me. > > I never said I was quoting you. > > > > What part of the definition of the word > > > "paraphrasing" do you want me to explain? > > > > None. See above. > > I saw above, and I still don't see where I was purportedly quoting > you. Jesus Christ. Are you a child ? You must be the world's smartest 13 year old, because I've seen your code and it's damn good for someone your age. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 9:48: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D300537B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 99551 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 17:48:04 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 2001 17:48:04 -0000 Message-ID: <006501c188b5$63f010e0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Terry Lambert" , "John Baldwin" Cc: "Dominick LaTrappe" , References: <3C2068C9.BF7F7E7D@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:48:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > John Baldwin wrote: > > Agreed, this is freebsd-advocacy, not Terry vs. Anthony. > > FWIW, I agree, and will not respond to the Microsoft troll any > more in -advocacy. Would that make you the FreeBSD troll, since you obviously initiated this mini-flame war ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 10: 3:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F5E37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22] helo=hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GPyZ-0004ib-00 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:32:31 -0800 Received: from [209.179.200.2] (helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GPvg-0005h1-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:29:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F9901.C61A0497@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:29:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Fergus Cameron , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> <00b201c187e5$54138330$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1F78C9.77B9ADD9@mindspring.com> <00c401c187e9$fe3d8960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > My information comes directly from Microsoft. They ought to know. What part of "those URL references are Microsoft domain registrations and that artwork is Microsoft artwork" aren't you understanding? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 10:29:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB3A37B41B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31369 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 18:29:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Dec 2001 18:29:47 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <006501c188b5$63f010e0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:29:32 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Terry Lambert Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19-Dec-01 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> John Baldwin wrote: >> > Agreed, this is freebsd-advocacy, not Terry vs. Anthony. >> >> FWIW, I agree, and will not respond to the Microsoft troll any >> more in -advocacy. > > Would that make you the FreeBSD troll, since you obviously initiated this > mini-flame war ? Actually, Anthony usually starts these flamewars. He's started about 3 or 4 on -chat in the past week or so. His primary assertion being that Unix or Unix-like systems are unsuitable on the desktop for anyone, and that everyone should switch to Windows for desktop machines. He does claim to run a FreeBSD server however, and says that Unix-like systems are ok for servers. However, he won't accept the fact that some people do indeed find Unix useful as a desktop as well. The biggest reason Terry is riled up is that Anthony doesn't play fair during arguments. He ignores any statements which point him out as being wrong, partially quotes messages so he can take parts out of context, contradicts himself, and always has to have the last word. Granted, the lovely flamefest should have stopped much earlier (as should the ones on -chat), but Anthony is the one being the Troll here. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 10:35:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0ACFF37B43C for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 99859 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 18:34:45 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 2001 18:34:45 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c188bb$e9fe65f0$0a00a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Terry Lambert" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:35:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Actually, Anthony usually starts these flamewars. He's started about 3 or 4 on > -chat in the past week or so. His primary assertion being that Unix or > Unix-like systems are unsuitable on the desktop for anyone, and that everyone > should switch to Windows for desktop machines. He does claim to run a FreeBSD > server however, and says that Unix-like systems are ok for servers. However, > he won't accept the fact that some people do indeed find Unix useful as a > desktop as well. > > The biggest reason Terry is riled up is that Anthony doesn't play fair during > arguments. He ignores any statements which point him out as being wrong, > partially quotes messages so he can take parts out of context, contradicts > himself, and always has to have the last word. Granted, the lovely flamefest > should have stopped much earlier (as should the ones on -chat), but Anthony is > the one being the Troll here. Well then, I'll conceed most of my points to a more general statement, rather than directly at Terry, however, it did seem he was being a little petty, and trying to use someone's Microsoft-advocacy to negate their point of view. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 10:40: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697D037B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6564 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 18:39:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Dec 2001 18:39:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000a01c188bb$e9fe65f0$0a00a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:39:42 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19-Dec-01 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > Well then, I'll conceed most of my points to a more general statement, > rather than directly at Terry, however, it did seem he was being a little > petty, and trying to use someone's Microsoft-advocacy to negate their point > of view. I'll agree that the discussion had long ceased to be productive and was getting petty. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 12:58:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D4237B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJKwPR25456; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00b001c188cf$e8586700$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:25 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah writes: > FreeBSD stands on it's own merits, not by detracting > from others. I agree. FreeBSD shines very brightly in the markets for which it is suited, which typically have little or nothing to do with Microsoft. > But I didn't do it by being a prick-face-Microsoft= > sucks-ass-FreeBSD-rules-all moron. I leave that > kind of crap for the Linux kiddies. That is wise, IMO. Unfortunately, few people seem to be that objective. > You don't have to hate Microsoft to love FreeBSD. Agreed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 13: 0:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99A937B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJKxwR25465; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:59:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00b901c188d0$1e315850$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Fergus Cameron" , References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <20011218144316.D338@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> <3C1F6C5A.61A3422C@mindspring.com> <00b201c187e5$54138330$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1F78C9.77B9ADD9@mindspring.com> <00c401c187e9$fe3d8960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1F9901.C61A0497@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:59:57 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > What part of "those URL references are Microsoft > domain registrations and that artwork is Microsoft > artwork" aren't you understanding? Which thread was it in which you said you no longer would participate? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 13: 1:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8866437B405; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBJL1iR25480; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:01:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00be01c188d0$5d49d760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: , "Terry Lambert" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:01:43 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > His primary assertion being that Unix or > Unix-like systems are unsuitable on the > desktop for anyone, and that everyone > should switch to Windows for desktop machines. I've never asserted anything of the kind. > However, he won't accept the fact that some > people do indeed find Unix useful as a > desktop as well. I accept it, but I recognize that they are a small minority. > The biggest reason Terry is riled up is that > Anthony doesn't play fair during arguments. He > ignores any statements which point him out as > being wrong ... I don't recall claiming that Passport was a trademark of Microsoft. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 13:12: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618BB37B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 568 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2001 21:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Dec 2001 21:11:58 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00b901c188d0$1e315850$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:11:43 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > >> What part of "those URL references are Microsoft >> domain registrations and that artwork is Microsoft >> artwork" aren't you understanding? > > Which thread was it in which you said you no longer would participate? That's an old message silly. Look at timestamps. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 15:45:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E23F37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.228.27]) by mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011219234508.OPEN941.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@columbia>; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:45:08 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: Subject: RE: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:44:55 -0500 Message-ID: <002701c188e7$295a6f20$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jeremiah Gowdy > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 12:42 PM > To: Terry Lambert; Anthony Atkielski > Cc: Andrew C. Hornback; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? > > >Basically, it's OK for FreeBSD to be anywhere Microsoft doesn't > >currently want, but if you try and push it somewhere they've peed > >(or Apple tries to push it in one of those places), then it's > >"obviously ill suited, and can never be made to work" (paraphrasing). > > > > Anthony is pretty much here (and on -chat) as a > > Microsoft appologist and advocate. > > > > I'm paraphrasing you. > > > > And that last statement pretty well establishes it, doesn't it? > > What the hell is this, if you don't support The Cause 100%, you're one of > the enemy ? This makes me sick. Do you have to hate Microsoft and agree > with everything they're accused of in order to support FreeBSD ? What the > hell are we now, linux-advocacy ? FreeBSD stands on it's own > merits, not by > detracting from others. No... what I was saying was that this is a forum for FreeBSD discussion. However, I have yet to see more than a handful of posts from some members here that don't mention Microsoft. If we wanted to discuss Microsoft, wouldn't it be logical that we would find the proper forum to do such? > Everyone can have their own opinions about where Microsoft succeeds and > where FreeBSD succeeds. And as for the person who asked if this was > Microsoft-advocacy, what exactly are you thinking ? I posed that question, and here is what I am thinking... This mailing list is called freebsd-advocacy. That has nothing to do with Microsoft, therefore Microsoft discussion and traffic should be considered off topic. Or am I incorrect in making that assumption? > That there can be a > discussion of FreeBSD advocacy without talking about the alternatives ? I welcome discussion of the alternatives. I do not welcome discussion of things that even hair splitters would consider pedantic, especially about a topic not directly related to FreeBSD. > Rather than making any points about anything, it just seems like > people are > characterizing other people and attacking them for any affections > they might > have for Microsoft. To that end, I'll say this much... I don't hate Microsoft. I have a severe disdain for their tactics and have seen "behind the curtain" with regards to the tactics that they use in order to maintain their position as a "world leader". > Let me say this again: > > FreeBSD stands on it's own merits, not by detracting from others. And I agree with you there. However, one person's uneducated opinion should not be trumpted as the voice of truth here. > I'm a Win32 API programmer that uses Windows 2000 or XP on the desktop. I > love Office XP. I use 98, not because I think it's a better operating system, but because I enjoy playing some entertainment titles that simply don't work properly without it. I'm in the process of setting up my FreeBSD workstation for doing real work, so I can demote this machine back to playing games only. > However, I have two huge FreeBSD servers at my > feet that I > just setup for a contract, when I'm moonlighting on my job as a FreeBSD > admin. If you can't accept that both operating systems have their own > merits, or you think that FreeBSD is the end-all solution to > everything, you > don't make a good advocate for FreeBSD and should unsubscribe > from the list. While that sounds like an ultimatum, I stand by what I've said and my stance on both subjects. > I am an advocate of FreeBSD, and I have converted many people. I consider myself to be an advocate for FreeBSD and have also converted a few people and a few entire departments. > But I didn't > do it by being a prick-face-Microsoft-sucks-ass-FreeBSD-rules-all > moron. And neither did I. By simply stating the facts and letting them speak volumes, that is enough. > I > leave that kind of crap for the Linux kiddies. Don't characterize other > people as Microsoft-lovers just because they don't agree with all > of your MS > hate. I have never said that, nor will I ever say that. However, when one person's posts have nothing to do but trumpet Microsoft and downplay FreeBSD... makes you wonder, doesn't it? > You don't have to hate Microsoft to love FreeBSD. Exactly. --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 16: 8:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03AA37B445; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK08nR26033; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:08:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00e701c188ea$8063e640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:08:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > That's an old message silly. Look at timestamps. Messages are sorted in chronological order in my mailbox. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 16:17:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D42337B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK0HjR26078; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:17:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00ff01c188eb$c01af9d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: References: <002701c188e7$295a6f20$6600000a@ach.domain> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:17:44 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew writes: > This mailing list is called freebsd-advocacy. > That has nothing to do with Microsoft, therefore > Microsoft discussion and traffic should be > considered off topic. Or am I incorrect in > making that assumption? Yes, I believe you are. It's extremely difficult to discuss any kind of advocacy for one OS without mentioning any other OS. Or are you suggesting that it should by okay to mention other operating systems--as long as they aren't sold by Microsoft? In the latter case, please explain why you feel this way. In the former case, please explain what sort of advocacy discussions you can suggest that do not mention any of the competition. Since Microsoft is the major competitor to FreeBSD on the desktop (and in the non-UNIX server market, although it is far weaker there), it is inevitable that Microsoft will be mentioned in any attempt to advocate FreeBSD. > And I agree with you there. However, one person's > uneducated opinion should not be trumpted as the > voice of truth here. I agree; but you should still be free to express it. > I use 98, not because I think it's a better operating > system, but because I enjoy playing some entertainment > titles that simply don't work properly without it. If these titles won't work properly without it, then it would seem that it is the best operating system for those titles, no? > I'm in the process of setting up my FreeBSD > workstation for doing real work ... What sort of work is that? Do you run any FreeBSD servers? > However, when one person's posts have nothing to > do but trumpet Microsoft and downplay FreeBSD... > makes you wonder, doesn't it? And vice versa, although it usually isn't necessary to wonder for very long. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 16:26: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A962837B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.228.27]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011220002603.WONS7926.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@columbia> for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:26:03 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: Subject: RE: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:25:50 -0500 Message-ID: <003201c188ec$e0d995e0$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00e701c188ea$8063e640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:09 PM > To: John Baldwin > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > > John writes: > > > That's an old message silly. Look at timestamps. > > Messages are sorted in chronological order in my mailbox. Your client sorts them in the order that you receive them, not in the order that they were sent to the mail server's queue. --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 16:30:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1CE37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK0UNR26127; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:30:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <012501c188ed$8436b8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003201c188ec$e0d995e0$6600000a@ach.domain> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:30:23 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew writes: > Your client sorts them in the order that you > receive them, not in the order that they were > sent to the mail server's queue. That's fine with me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 16:36:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E251237B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.228.27]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011220003616.DSWS13117.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@columbia>; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:36:16 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Anthony's e-mail snip class, take one (was: Re: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:36:02 -0500 Message-ID: <003301c188ee$4d9e52a0$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00ff01c188eb$c01af9d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:18 PM > To: Andrew C. Hornback; Jeremiah Gowdy > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? > > Andrew writes: > > > This mailing list is called freebsd-advocacy. > > That has nothing to do with Microsoft, therefore > > Microsoft discussion and traffic should be > > considered off topic. Or am I incorrect in > > making that assumption? > > Yes, I believe you are. It's extremely difficult to discuss any kind of > advocacy for one OS without mentioning any other OS. Or are you > suggesting > that it should by okay to mention other operating systems--as long as they > aren't sold by Microsoft? I seriously don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth or taking the entire reply in the context it was written. I welcome discussion of any operating system. However, I will not stand by while FreeBSD is made into a pariah by someone who has relatively little experience with it. > In the latter case, please explain why you feel > this way. In the former case, please explain what sort of advocacy > discussions you can suggest that do not mention any of the competition. Again, you're putting words in my mouth, and I'm going to refrain from engaging further in your witch hunt with me as the target. You seem to read what you want in a post, manipulate it the way that you want when you reply, and attempt to make out as if people have said things that they have not. > Since Microsoft is the major competitor to FreeBSD on the desktop (and in > the non-UNIX server market, although it is far weaker there), it is > inevitable that Microsoft will be mentioned in any attempt to advocate > FreeBSD. Yes. I agree that Microsoft should be discussed, but not held up as a shining beacon of what FreeBSD is striving to become. If that's the vision that the FreeBSD team is looking to reach, I want out... now. > > And I agree with you there. However, one person's > > uneducated opinion should not be trumpted as the > > voice of truth here. > > I agree; but you should still be free to express it. I don't disagree with the ability to express it. I disagree with the usage of this forum to praise Microsoft while at the same time blasting FreeBSD for not being more like Microsoft. > > I use 98, not because I think it's a better operating > > system, but because I enjoy playing some entertainment > > titles that simply don't work properly without it. > > If these titles won't work properly without it, then it would seem that it > is the best operating system for those titles, no? That's why I have two machines that I use primarily. One built for work, one built for play. One running FreeBSD, one running Windows 98. I believe you can do the math to determine which operating system is on which machine. > > I'm in the process of setting up my FreeBSD > > workstation for doing real work ... > > What sort of work is that? Is it really any business of yours? > Do you run any FreeBSD servers? Yes I do, and yes I have in the past. > > However, when one person's posts have nothing to > > do but trumpet Microsoft and downplay FreeBSD... > > makes you wonder, doesn't it? > > And vice versa, although it usually isn't necessary to wonder for > very long. So, because I'm a FreeBSD advocate (you happened to strategically snip out any discussion I had regarding Microsoft from this post), then I'm suddenly an immature FreeBSD zealot in your eyes? Hmm... could someone wake me when Anthony's opinion matters to anyone but himself? --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 16:55:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C241A37B41B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:53:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK0r6R26215; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:53:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <012c01c188f0$b09a10e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: References: <003301c188ee$4d9e52a0$6600000a@ach.domain> Subject: Re: Anthony's e-mail snip class, take one (was: Re: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:53:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew writes: > I seriously don't appreciate you putting words > in my mouth or taking the entire reply in the > context it was written. I haven't. I postulated a position on your part and asked you to clarify if that is indeed your position. > I welcome discussion of any operating system. Then why do you feel that discussion of Microsoft--publisher of the most successful operating system on the planet--should be excluded? And if you feel that discussion of Microsoft is off-topic, can you explain the greater relevance of a thread that you entitle "Anthony's e-mail snip class"? > However, I will not stand by while FreeBSD is made > into a pariah by someone who has relatively little > experience with it. If anyone does that, I'll count on you to jump to FreeBSD's defense. > Again, you're putting words in my mouth ... Where have I done that? "Putting words in your mouth" would mean misquoting you, but I haven't quoted you at all beyond the backquotes I've extracted directly from your own posts. > ... and I'm going to refrain from engaging further > in your witch hunt with me as the target. I believe I've heard this somewhere before. > You seem to read what you want in a post, manipulate > it the way that you want when you reply, and > attempt to make out as if people have said > things that they have not. No, I find the logical inconsistencies in a position and point them out. To people who do not reflect upon what they say before they say it, this can admittedly be very irritating--but that is their problem, not mine. > I agree that Microsoft should be discussed, but not > held up as a shining beacon of what FreeBSD is > striving to become. Nobody has done that. Like many people here, you appear to interpret any non-positive mention of FreeBSD at all in relation to a Microsoft product as some sort of attack on FreeBSD, rather than just an observation--and additionally you seem to take it personally. This makes a poor impression on anyone to whom you which to address your advocacy of FreeBSD, as it looks a lot like religion, rather than reason. > I disagree with the usage of this forum to > praise Microsoft while at the same time blasting > FreeBSD for not being more like Microsoft. I have neither praised nor blasted either of these operating systems. I don't invest any emotion into my discussions. I suppose others may be doing that, but it might be more productive to take that up directly with them. > > If these titles won't work properly without it, > > then it would seem that it is the best operating > > system for those titles, no? > > That's why I have two machines that I use primarily. You haven't answered the question: If these titles won't work properly without Windows 98, then Windows 98 is necessarily the best operating system for those titles--do you or do you not agree, and why? > Is it really any business of yours? It certainly is, on a mailing list dedicated to advocacy of FreeBSD. If the applications for which people use the OS are top secret, it's going to be extremely hard to promote the operating system. I use FreeBSD as a server. It provides e-mail services and DNS services, currently, and it also serves as a prototype system for my production Web site (which also runs FreeBSD). > Yes I do, and yes I have in the past. How do you use the FreeBSD systems you run as servers? > So, because I'm a FreeBSD advocate ... then I'm > suddenly an immature FreeBSD zealot in your eyes? I said nothing of the kind. You inferred that I was speaking of you--which says something in itself. Just because I insist on taking a balanced viewpoint of operating systems does not mean that I am a basher of FreeBSD or a sycophant of Microsoft. > Hmm... could someone wake me when Anthony's opinion > matters to anyone but himself? It must matter a great deal to you, given the effort you expend here in attempts to discredit it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 17: 1:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.harvestberkeley.org (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BA237B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from blah (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ggong.harvestberkeley.org (8.11.2/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK10bK10568; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:00:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Terry Lambert" , "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:00:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What the hell is this, if you don't support The Cause 100%, you're one of > the enemy ? This makes me sick. Do you have to hate Microsoft and agree > with everything they're accused of in order to support FreeBSD ? What the > hell are we now, linux-advocacy ? FreeBSD stands on it's own merits, not by > detracting from others. Hm, I think one of the big problems here is that Anthony keeps stating that Unix has no place in the desktop. That is fine as an opinion, I suppose, but not very FreeBSD-advocating. I would argue that Unix has a potential place in the desktop. In fact, we have to remember that the biggest Unix desktop vendor, Apple (via OS X), built their kernel on a FreeBSD code base. To bash Unix on the desktop is to bash OS X, which is to indirectly bash FreeBSD (and all other BSDs, as well as all Unixes). Anothony, many of us would feel a lot less upset if you would not state so strongly that Unix has no place in the desktop. Since this is a FreeBSD-advocacy list, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you to keep the FreeBSD bashing down, even if it is an indirect bash. And yes I do use some microsoft products, and in fact do use MS on the desktop (as you could tell by reading my mail headers). Gilbert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 20:53:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from arctic.icelab.net (arctic.icelab.net [198.49.247.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8073B37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (valence@localhost) by arctic.icelab.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBK4w2C21777 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from valence@symboliq.org) X-Authentication-Warning: arctic.icelab.net: valence owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:02 -0700 (MST) From: Valence Logrus X-X-Sender: Cc: Subject: Re: Sandman In-Reply-To: <003301c188ee$4d9e52a0$6600000a@ach.domain> Message-ID: <20011219215409.U21144-100000@arctic.icelab.net> X-Files: The Truth is Out There K2Y: Is It 1970 Yet? X-Rated: Oh Yeah Baby X-Men: Wolverine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG =AD=AD=BB =09Hmm... could someone wake me when Anthony's opinion matters to= anyone but =AD=AD=BB himself? =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB --- Andy =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org =AD=AD=BB with "unsubscribe monkeysoft-advocacy" in the body of the message =AD=AD=BB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 21: 3:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from arctic.icelab.net (arctic.icelab.net [198.49.247.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB54F37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (valence@localhost) by arctic.icelab.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBK57Wq21884 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:07:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from valence@symboliq.org) X-Authentication-Warning: arctic.icelab.net: valence owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:07:32 -0700 (MST) From: Valence Logrus X-X-Sender: To: Subject: wewps Message-ID: <20011219220140.F21144-100000@arctic.icelab.net> X-Files: The Truth is Out There K2Y: Is It 1970 Yet? X-Rated: Oh Yeah Baby X-Men: Wolverine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG sorry about the last email, wasn't supposed to send that one out :P I tell ya, this FreeBSD religion is great. I don't even have to wear a long beard to participate. My servers are up for most of the year (when I'm not breaking things), and the daemon stickers look great in place over the sun logos on the SPARCs. Someday the great guru porting monks will make freebsd on SPARC and the world will be good. Oh yes, very good. OS X is the prophetic sign, self-fulfilling it is our job. Hoorah for an OS that works correctly! hoorah! Just not having a "/opt" is enough to bring tears to my eyes... -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 21:58:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E12A37B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from compy733 ([64.229.85.143]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20011220055847.CPQO26587.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@compy733> for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:58:47 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c1891a$b7fe35d0$e902000a@compy733> From: "Juvenal Flores" To: References: <20011219220140.F21144-100000@arctic.icelab.net> Subject: Re: wewps Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:53:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is getting annoying; I'm subscribed to this mailing list to get emails about any security advisories that has to do with freebsd and NOT to get 100's of emails about people talking about logos and trademarks or what not. There is a time and place for everything and this is not the place. I'm sure there are other lists or even IRC channels you can use talk about that kind of stuff. I'm also sure people who subscribe to this list only care about problems with their freebsd server and not how Hotmail still uses a Unix server. This is not meant for you Valence. I just got the email and thought this would be a good time to send this little message out to everyone. I also do not want to get replies to this about how I don't know what I'm talking about or that I'm right, because then you would be adding to the problem of sending out emails that deal nothing with freebsd advisories. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valence Logrus" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 12:07 AM Subject: wewps > sorry about the last email, wasn't supposed to send that one out :P > > I tell ya, this FreeBSD religion is great. I don't even have to wear a > long beard to participate. My servers are up for most of the year (when > I'm not breaking things), and the daemon stickers look great in place over > the sun logos on the SPARCs. Someday the great guru porting monks will > make freebsd on SPARC and the world will be good. Oh yes, very good. OS X > is the prophetic sign, self-fulfilling it is our job. Hoorah for an OS > that works correctly! hoorah! Just not having a "/opt" is enough to bring > tears to my eyes... > > -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 19 23:23:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E497A37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:23:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK7N2R27579; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:23:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014501c18927$2a552ec0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:22:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gilbert writes: > Hm, I think one of the big problems here is > that Anthony keeps stating that Unix has no > place in the desktop. I think one of the big problems here is that so many people are actually hellbent on "beating" Microsoft, and so insist that UNIX is "better" than Microsoft on the desktop, even though that's about the last place in the universe where you'd want to compare UNIX side-by-side with MS if you want UNIX to win. At the same time, UNIX as a server is virtually forgotten, even though that is what UNIX does best. As a result, while satisfying their emotional need to hurt Microsoft, at least in their own minds, they damage the cause of UNIX and FreeBSD by advocating it in precisely the environments where it is least likely to be acceptable to objective users. It's amazing how many people are so blinded by their own subjective preferences that they cannot see this. > That is fine as an opinion, I suppose, but not > very FreeBSD-advocating. It makes a lot more sense to advocate FreeBSD for what it does best than to advocate it for what it does worst. Advocating UNIX for the desktop is more likely to hurt the OS and help it, as objective parties who compare it with Microsoft are very likely to choose MS, further marginalizing UNIX in their minds--they'll have "proof" that UNIX is "worse" than Windows. > I would argue that Unix has a potential > place in the desktop. It does, but it is not a replacement or substitute for Windows, and the average user needs Windows, not UNIX. > In fact, we have to remember that the biggest Unix > desktop vendor, Apple (via OS X), built their kernel > on a FreeBSD code base. We also have to remember that the vast majority of Apple users still run the old Mac OS, and Apple systems still boot MacOS 9 preferentially, IIRC. Apple built OS X on a UNIX code base because it was cheaper than writing an OS from scratch (something they simply could not afford), not because UNIX was in any way inherently superior for the desktop (although I'm sure it's a huge step forward from the old Mac OS, which still used an architecture scarcely any better than Windows 3.X). > To bash Unix on the desktop is to bash OS X, > which is to indirectly bash FreeBSD (and all > other BSDs, as well as all Unixes). To be selectively blind to the failings and weaknesses of an operating system is to base one's position on emotion, rather than reason. Others who do not share the same emotions will not be persuaded to adopt such a position. > Anothony, many of us would feel a lot less upset > if you would not state so strongly that Unix has > no place in the desktop. Perhaps "feeling upset" is the real problem. If you are so attached to an OS that you feel upset whenever anyone says anything less than positive about it, then you are not an objective evaluator of that operating system. > And yes I do use some microsoft products, and in > fact do use MS on the desktop (as you could tell > by reading my mail headers). Most people do. So why do you bash UNIX by using Windows on the desktop? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 0:37:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2CF4437B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2532 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 08:37:48 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 08:37:48 -0000 Message-ID: <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Gilbert Gong" , "Terry Lambert" , "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:49:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hm, I think one of the big problems here is that Anthony keeps stating that > Unix has no place in the desktop. That is fine as an opinion, I suppose, > but not very FreeBSD-advocating. I would argue that Unix has a potential > place in the desktop. In fact, we have to remember that the biggest Unix > desktop vendor, Apple (via OS X), built their kernel on a FreeBSD code base. > To bash Unix on the desktop is to bash OS X, which is to indirectly bash > FreeBSD (and all other BSDs, as well as all Unixes). I disagree completely. FreeBSD is not a desktop. If progress is to be made in the desktop market it shall be made by XFree86, Gnome, and KDE. Stating that FreeBSD has no place on the desktop isn't slamming FreeBSD, since FreeBSD is first and foremost a server operating system. To say that Unix has no place on the desktop is a completely valid opinion, and does not detract from FreeBSD, ***until such time as FreeBSD claims to be a desktop OS*** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 1:22:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.af-inet.net (cx793560-b.dt1.sdca.home.com [24.13.5.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911FB37B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jaron@localhost) by mail.af-inet.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBK99oJ87413; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:09:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:09:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jaron Omega To: Juvenal Flores Cc: Subject: Re: wewps In-Reply-To: <001601c1891a$b7fe35d0$e902000a@compy733> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Juvenal Flores wrote: [snip] >I also do not want to get replies to this about how I don't know what I'm >talking about or that I'm right, because then you would be adding to the >problem of sending out emails that deal nothing with freebsd advisories. But... you're on the wrong list. security@freebsd.org and/or security-advisories@freebsd.org is where you should be. Advocating on a list with an email like 'advocacy@freebsd.org' is well, expected? Jaron Omega To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 1:49:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.harvestberkeley.org (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F087937B447 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from blah (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ggong.harvestberkeley.org (8.11.2/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK9nuK15296; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:49:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah, I am glad that at least your email has a much more calm tone than Anthony's does. I think it will take me a while to figure out the best way to respond to his email. My goal is totally not to make anyone upset. Though I think I have made a mistake towards that goal. Conversely, I want to get us on the same page in certain areas, and be able to dialogue appropriately about those areas that we disagree in, in a calm non-inflammatory manner. To this end, I am going to take some pains to clarify specific terms. Miscommunications is such a cause of useless anger. > I disagree completely. FreeBSD is not a desktop. If progress is to be made > in the desktop market it shall be made by XFree86, Gnome, and KDE. I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "FreeBSD is not a desktop," but I take that to mean that you are saying it is an operating system as opposed to software generally billed as a "desktop environment" (what KDE and Gnome both bill themselves as). If that is what you mean, then of course you are correct, FreeBSD is not a desktop (or perhaps more accurately, FreeBSD is not desktop environment software), it is an operating system. And yes, the strongest open source projects towards making Unix more acceptable to the main stream as a desktop operating system are ones such as KDE and Gnome. However, FreeBSD as an operating system is a great system on which to run KDE and Gnome, arguably the second best (I would agree linux is probably the best, since most of those projects use linux as their primary development platform). Of course, if we talk about non-open source projects as well, then Apple's OS X system is also a big progress maker as far as unix-as-a-desktop-being-acceptable-by-the-main-stream goes. > Stating > that FreeBSD has no place on the desktop isn't slamming FreeBSD, since > FreeBSD is first and foremost a server operating system. I would definitely agree that FreeBSD has it's strength in use as a server operating system. Now we may be getting down to hairs here, but there is a difference between statements such as: "FreeBSD is not the best desktop operating system." "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop." "FreeBSD has value in certain desktop operating system applications." or as the web page (at www.freebsd.org) says: "It is well-suited for a great number of both desktop and server applications." Which would you say is the best for a FreeBSD advocate to use? > To say that Unix > has no place on the desktop is a completely valid opinion, and does not > detract from FreeBSD, ***until such time as FreeBSD claims to be a desktop > OS*** > How would you define "claims to be a desktop OS?" Would that quote from the web page be considered a claim, or would it be considered not a claim? At the very least, a statement such as "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" should have certain qualifiers. For example, I know many people that run FreeBSD as a desktop operating system. Many people that work at ISPs do. When I worked at an ISP I used FreeBSD as an operating system. The main thing is what the majority of one's work involves. At the ISP, the majority of my time was spent logged into routers. I found a Unix operating system to facilitate that much better than Windows. There are many engineering CAD users that use Unix as a desktop operating system (perhaps not the majority, but a significant number, I believe). In that environment, FreeBSD might be a valid option. There are many Unix software engineers/programmers that use Unix as a desktop enviroment. Here again, FreeBSD would be a valid option (more so than the CAD/CAM users, who probably need high end accelerated video card support, which isn't a FreeBSD strength, though with a commercial accelerated X server it may do better, I do not know for sure). I am sure others could come up with more potential desktop users, but my point is, I would think it reasonable to ask anyone that considers themselves a FreeBSD advocate to modify a statement such as "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" to something such as "FreeBSD has no appeal as a desktop operating system to the mainstream computer user." It'd be even more FreeBSD-advocating to use a phrase like the one on the web site, eg "It is well-suited for a great number of both desktop and server applications." Let me give one more example. If we agree now that FreeBSD in certain specific desktop environments makes a whole lot of sense, just as Windows as a server operating system makes sense in certain specific situations, than let me ask you this. If someone sent an email to a windows-advocacy list that made the statement "Windows has no place as a server OS," don't you think 1) that would be inappropriate for that list, and 2) that person was not a windows advocate? I think the biggest issue is the the incontrovertible-ness of the statement (sorry for making up a word). While again, I have said it is fine as an opinion, I still claim it is not welcome on a list which has as it's charter FreeBSD advocacy. If you want to claim that FreeBSD is not strong as a desktop, that is fine. You open up a discussion about what are its strengths and weaknesses. If you want to claim that FreeBSD is strong as a server OS, that is also good. I think "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" is as non-useful a statement as "FreeBSD is the best server OS" (please note, I do not say I believe that statement, it is given as an example). To make such incontrovertible statements either way closes the door to discussions about the relative merits and weaknesses of FreeBSD, which I think we mostly agree is what FreeBSD advocacy should be. Gilbert > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 6:23:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.harvestberkeley.org (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC1937B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from blah (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ggong.harvestberkeley.org (8.11.2/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKEO8K18214; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:24:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <008901c18961$ef58ece0$1400a8c0@blah.com> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <014501c18927$2a552ec0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:23:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think one of the big problems here is that so many people are actually > hellbent on "beating" Microsoft, and so insist that UNIX is "better" than Anthony, I hope you aren't talking about me when you mention people that are "hellbent on 'beating' Microsoft," because I do not think I have made any statements which are indicative of the attitude you describe. > Microsoft on the desktop, even though that's about the last place in the > universe where you'd want to compare UNIX side-by-side with MS if you want > UNIX to win. At the same time, UNIX as a server is virtually forgotten, > even though that is what UNIX does best. As a result, while satisfying I think it is very rare for most of us that actually use FreeBSD to forget Unix as a server. How do you know people forget Unix as a server? All indications to me are that it is not forgotten as a server, but maybe that is because I read the lists such as -hackers, -current, and -stable. > their emotional need to hurt Microsoft, at least in their own minds, they > damage the cause of UNIX and FreeBSD by advocating it in precisely the > environments where it is least likely to be acceptable to objective users. > It's amazing how many people are so blinded by their own subjective > preferences that they cannot see this. It is helpful to look seperately at Microsoft as a company, and Microsoft software products. Microsoft software products have their issues, but so does all software, including FreeBSD. I think that on the FreeBSD lists, most people that criticize Microsoft are not explicitly criticizing their software, but more often the company. Now let me explain why. Most people that are involved with FreeBSD tend to dislike FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). It's a FreeBSD cultural thing. Microsoft (the company) is seen as a great spreader of FUD. Most users of FreeBSD also tend to like freedom (another cultural thing). Microsoft (the company) is seen as a company that does their best to limit your freedom, not explicity but through more sneaky tactics. And of course you can easily disagree or agree with this viewpoint. But I just wanted to make clear that often when you see people "hellbent on 'beating' Microsoft" (whom I do not consider myself one of) they often are beating Microsoft as a company, and not Microsoft products. Another thing I would remind you of is that I never said we should advocate FreeBSD for the average user. I have simply stated it would make many of us less upset if you would not state so vehemently that "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" > > > That is fine as an opinion, I suppose, but not > > very FreeBSD-advocating. > > It makes a lot more sense to advocate FreeBSD for what it does best than to > advocate it for what it does worst. Advocating UNIX for the desktop is more > likely to hurt the OS and help it, as objective parties who compare it with > Microsoft are very likely to choose MS, further marginalizing UNIX in their > minds--they'll have "proof" that UNIX is "worse" than Windows. > You may be correct on this. But then shouldn't you say to us: "The best way to advocate FreeBSD is to talk about it as a server, and never mention it as a desktop system."? If you made statements like that, people would be less upset, and you would have a better chance of achieving your goal of convincing us not to advocate FreeBSD as a desktop system. > > I would argue that Unix has a potential > > place in the desktop. > > It does, but it is not a replacement or substitute for Windows, and the > average user needs Windows, not UNIX. I'm glad we agree on something. > > > In fact, we have to remember that the biggest Unix > > desktop vendor, Apple (via OS X), built their kernel > > on a FreeBSD code base. > > We also have to remember that the vast majority of Apple users still run the > old Mac OS, and Apple systems still boot MacOS 9 preferentially, IIRC. > > Apple built OS X on a UNIX code base because it was cheaper than writing an > OS from scratch (something they simply could not afford), not because UNIX > was in any way inherently superior for the desktop (although I'm sure it's a > huge step forward from the old Mac OS, which still used an architecture > scarcely any better than Windows 3.X). Well, now I'm just curious to understand what you really think. So, how would you describe the architectural differences between Unix and Windows NT? How about between Unix and Windows 98? Do you think that Windows NT/2000/XP is architecturally superior to Unix for use in a desktop environment? If so, what makes it architecturally superior in a desktop environment? Do you think Unix is architecturally superior in a server environment? If so, what makes it architecturally suprerior in a server enviroment? > > > To bash Unix on the desktop is to bash OS X, > > which is to indirectly bash FreeBSD (and all > > other BSDs, as well as all Unixes). > > To be selectively blind to the failings and weaknesses of an operating > system is to base one's position on emotion, rather than reason. Others who > do not share the same emotions will not be persuaded to adopt such a > position. Um, maybe. Or even if I say yes you are right, what does this have to do with anything? Though you know around my friends, if I say I like strawberry ice cream enough, eventually they'll probably start to think strawberry ice cream probably isn't so bad. It's what friendship is all about, being open to what other people like that you might not like or know about. But I digress. So, what specific failings and weaknesses of particular operating systems have you seen people overlook? > > > Anothony, many of us would feel a lot less upset > > if you would not state so strongly that Unix has > > no place in the desktop. > > Perhaps "feeling upset" is the real problem. If you are so attached to an > OS that you feel upset whenever anyone says anything less than positive > about it, then you are not an objective evaluator of that operating system. So I'm emotionally attached to FreeBSD. Is that really a problem? If I really like Breyer's strawberry ice cream, does that mean I can't be a Breyer's strawberry ice cream advocate? Or that if I talk about how much I like it that people will ignore me and not listen to me? When I am in "FreeBSD advocate" mode, I think I should be emotionally attached to the operating system. But I won't let my bias cause me to suggest using FreeBSD as a corporate desktop operating system. That doesn't mean that FreeBSD doesn't have a place in certain desktop applications. > > > And yes I do use some microsoft products, and in > > fact do use MS on the desktop (as you could tell > > by reading my mail headers). > > Most people do. So why do you bash UNIX by using Windows on the desktop? > I'm not bashing Unix by using Windows on the desktop. Because I hope to use Unix as a desktop operating system some day. Perhaps sooner, perhaps later. But either way, I don't make statements like "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop." One final note: As I said in my email to Jeremiah, what people get upset about, is the absolute-ness (yes I made up another word) with which you come across in presenting ideas such as "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop." Now, I realize that those exact words may not actually be yours. In Terry's words, I may be paraphrasing you. But even if those are not your exact words, that is the attitude you come across with. But if that is not your true view, than great. I've noticed you concede that Unix does have a place in some desktop applications, but that the "average user needs Windows." That at least is a much less absolute stance. Thank you for that. I welcome your efforts to clarify your viewpoint (though some are probably getting real tired of this thread and want it to die). Gilbert PS. For those of you that actually read this far, sorry if it was boring. Of course, if it was boring you probably didn't make it this far. And sorry if I am reiterating stuff that ppl have already discussed on -chat. I haven't been reading that list.. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 6:34:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1482B37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKEYeR28559; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:34:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01a001c18963$75e00db0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:34:40 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gilbert writes: > If someone sent an email to a windows-advocacy > list that made the statement "Windows has no > place as a server OS," don't you think 1) that > would be inappropriate for that list, and 2) that > person was not a windows advocate? Neither. It would simply be an observation; and if it referenced consumer versions of Windows, it would be a very accurate observation as well (no consumer version of Windows is really viable as a server OS). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 6:56: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from clunix.cl.msu.edu (clunix.cl.msu.edu [35.9.2.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E2F37B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jerrymc@localhost) by clunix.cl.msu.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id fBKEtrd15537; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:55:53 -0500 (EST) From: Jerry McAllister Message-Id: <200112201455.fBKEtrd15537@clunix.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: wewps To: juvenal@sympatico.ca (Juvenal Flores) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:55:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <001601c1891a$b7fe35d0$e902000a@compy733> from "Juvenal Flores" at Dec 20, 2001 12:53:59 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > This is getting annoying; I'm subscribed to this mailing list to get emails > about any security advisories that has to do with freebsd and NOT to get > 100's of emails about people talking about logos and trademarks or what not. > There is a time and place for everything and this is not the place. > Well, this is the freebsd advocacy list and not the freebsd security list so maybe there is some confusion about the purpose of the list here. On the other hand, I have become completely bored by the continued circular ranting about messy-dos and its offspring too. Nothing that has been said in the last 50 or so posts has added anything new or contributed anything to anyones understanding so go get a life. I'm getting so automatic with my delete that I am accidently nuking things I really SHOULD be reading. ////jerry > > > I'm sure there are other lists or even IRC channels you can use talk about > that kind of stuff. > > > > I'm also sure people who subscribe to this list only care about problems > with their freebsd server and not how Hotmail still uses a Unix server. > > > > This is not meant for you Valence. I just got the email and thought this > would be a good time to send this little message out to everyone. > > > > I also do not want to get replies to this about how I don't know what I'm > talking about or that I'm right, because then you would be adding to the > problem of sending out emails that deal nothing with freebsd advisories. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Valence Logrus" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 12:07 AM > Subject: wewps > > > > sorry about the last email, wasn't supposed to send that one out :P > > > > I tell ya, this FreeBSD religion is great. I don't even have to wear a > > long beard to participate. My servers are up for most of the year (when > > I'm not breaking things), and the daemon stickers look great in place over > > the sun logos on the SPARCs. Someday the great guru porting monks will > > make freebsd on SPARC and the world will be good. Oh yes, very good. OS X > > is the prophetic sign, self-fulfilling it is our job. Hoorah for an OS > > that works correctly! hoorah! Just not having a "/opt" is enough to bring > > tears to my eyes... > > > > -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 7: 9:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2B337B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKF8uR28646; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:08:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01af01c18968$3f277880$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Gilbert Gong" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <014501c18927$2a552ec0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <008901c18961$ef58ece0$1400a8c0@blah.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:08:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gilbert writes: > Anthony, I hope you aren't talking about me > when you mention people that are "hellbent on > 'beating' Microsoft," because I do not think > I have made any statements which are indicative > of the attitude you describe. If you have not made any of the statements I describe, then logically I could not have been referring to you, and since you seem to believe the former, one wonders why you feel compelled to ask about the latter. I actually wasn't referring to anyone in particular, otherwise I would have identified him. It's interesting to see people _perceive_ themselves as targets of my observations, though. > I think it is very rare for most of us that > actually use FreeBSD to forget Unix as a server. And how many of us _use_ FreeBSD as a server? > How do you know people forget Unix as a server? Because they talk about it only as a desktop. > It is helpful to look seperately at Microsoft > as a company, and Microsoft software products. Why? Microsoft as a company is far less relevant to advocacy efforts and need not be considered at all, any more than the persons developing FreeBSD. > I think that on the FreeBSD lists, most people > that criticize Microsoft are not explicitly > criticizing their software, but more often the > company. Why do they not criticize FreeBSD developers as well, then? That would be just as irrelevant. > But I just wanted to make clear that often > when you see people "hellbent on 'beating' > Microsoft" (whom I do not consider myself one > of) they often are beating Microsoft as a > company, and not Microsoft products. In discussions of operating-system advantages and disadvantages, subjective evaluations of the entities producing those operating systems have little place. > I have simply stated it would make many of us > less upset if you would not state so vehemently > that "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" I worry about unsophisticated users who take the advice of a rabid FreeBSD/Linux/UNIX supporter and install one of these operating systems in place of Windows, only to find out that it doesn't do what they need to do. It's very much like the realization that a Mac just doesn't cut the mustard for real-world use (mainly because of the smaller selection of applications), only much less expensive and considerably more probable and extreme. > You may be correct on this. But then shouldn't > you say to us: "The best way to advocate FreeBSD > is to talk about it as a server, and never mention > it as a desktop system."? Yes. Unless someone asks whether or not it can work as a desktop, there is no reason to bring it up. > If you made statements like that, people would > be less upset ... I doubt that. Religious fanaticism tolerates no moderation. Anything less than unconditional support in every way is seen as an attack. "If you aren't with us, you're against us." > So, how would you describe the architectural > differences between Unix and Windows NT? UNIX is far more oriented towards multiuser, remote timesharing, and far less oriented towards single-user, dedicated, heavy desktop use. UNIX also places a much heavier emphasis on device-independent and generalized services in a server role, whereas NT tends to be much more device-dependent and has a far more limited range of services that it can support. NT and UNIX kernels are far more similar than the more superficial layers of the OS, but the above differences nevertheless persist. > How about between Unix and Windows 98? No comparison. Windows 9x is a single-user, dedicated desktop that cannot function as a server except in the most contrived and artificial way. UNIX is virtually the opposite of this. For pure desktop use, Windows 9x is a better choice than UNIX; for mixed desktop/server use, only UNIX can reasonably be expected to suffice. > Do you think that Windows NT/2000/XP is architecturally > superior to Unix for use in a desktop environment? Yes. > If so, what makes it architecturally superior > in a desktop environment? A ground-up design intended to support such an environment, with such features as a heavily integrated GUI. Unrestricted access to virtually the entire range of Windows applications. A non-geek user interface that is virtually identical to the most popular interface around (Microsoft Windows). Ease of administration for unsophisticated administrators. These operating systems are probably not the optimal for the desktop, however (except perhaps for XP). The consumer versions of Windows are better still for most enviroments, especially home environments. NT and its brethren place far more emphasis on security and stability than the consumer versions do, and ordinary consumers often require flexibility and compatibility (both necessarily sacrificed for better security in NT) instead. > Do you think Unix is architecturally superior > in a server environment? Yes. > If so, what makes it architecturally suprerior > in a server enviroment? Simplicity, compact size, speed, ease of administration for expert administrators, ease of remote administration (often a nightmare with NT), extremely solid and extensive network support, an open architecture that invites the development of new applications, and a staggering base of existing server-oriented applications. Additionally, in the case of free versions of UNIX such as FreeBSD, the monetary savings that can be realized by not having to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars in license fees per server (and often per user as well) may be a deciding factor in favor of UNIX alone. > Or even if I say yes you are right, what does > this have to do with anything? Advocacy based on emotion is usually misrepresentation. > So, what specific failings and weaknesses of > particular operating systems have you seen > people overlook? See my comments above concerning the superiority of Windows in a desktop environment. > So I'm emotionally attached to FreeBSD. Is > that really a problem? Definitely, if a third party asks for your recommendation. A consultant with an emotional attachment to one solution to the detriment of another is a waste of money. > If I really like Breyer's strawberry ice cream, > does that mean I can't be a Breyer's strawberry > ice cream advocate? You can promote the product, but you cannot objectively recommend it, since your affection for it introduces a strong bias in its favor. > Or that if I talk about how much I like it > that people will ignore me and not listen > to me? That is a risk, also--although people who have never tasted ice cream before may simply believe you, possibly to their own detriment. > When I am in "FreeBSD advocate" mode, I think > I should be emotionally attached to the operating > system. I disagree. You help no one by simply spreading your prejudice in favor of the OS. > But I won't let my bias cause me to suggest > using FreeBSD as a corporate desktop operating > system. Famous last words. Emotional attachment is a slippery slope. > That doesn't mean that FreeBSD doesn't have a > place in certain desktop applications. Very few indeed. Unless an application runs only on UNIX, that really isn't a reason to install it on the desktop. Apache and BIND run on NT, but since they run much better on UNIX, this is not a reason to use NT as the server for either program. > I'm not bashing Unix by using Windows on the > desktop. That is a matter of opinion. To the religious fanatic, daring to use a heretic operating system for _any_ purpose is "bashing." > One final note: As I said in my email to Jeremiah, > what people get upset about, is the absolute-ness > (yes I made up another word) with which you come > across in presenting ideas such as "FreeBSD has > no place on the desktop." That is their problem, not mine. I worry about people who need to make objective decisions concerning a choice of OS, not about people who made up their minds long ago. > But even if those are not your exact words, > that is the attitude you come across with. That is their inference, not my implication. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 8:58:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC4BC37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4215 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 16:58:00 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 16:58:00 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c18977$9007ac20$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Gilbert Gong" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:58:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 1:49 AM Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? > Jeremiah, > I am glad that at least your email has a much more calm tone than Anthony's > does. I think it will take me a while to figure out the best way to respond > to his email. My goal is totally not to make anyone upset. Though I think > I have made a mistake towards that goal. Conversely, I want to get us on > the same page in certain areas, and be able to dialogue appropriately about > those areas that we disagree in, in a calm non-inflammatory manner. To this > end, I am going to take some pains to clarify specific terms. > Miscommunications is such a cause of useless anger. > > > I disagree completely. FreeBSD is not a desktop. If progress is to be > made > > in the desktop market it shall be made by XFree86, Gnome, and KDE. > > I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "FreeBSD is not a desktop," but I > take that to mean that you are saying it is an operating system as opposed > to software generally billed as a "desktop environment" (what KDE and Gnome > both bill themselves as). If that is what you mean, then of course you are > correct, FreeBSD is not a desktop (or perhaps more accurately, FreeBSD is > not desktop environment software), it is an operating system. And yes, the > strongest open source projects towards making Unix more acceptable to the > main stream as a desktop operating system are ones such as KDE and Gnome. > However, FreeBSD as an operating system is a great system on which to run > KDE and Gnome, arguably the second best (I would agree linux is probably the > best, since most of those projects use linux as their primary development > platform). That is simply a longer way of stating what I have stated. FreeBSD is not a desktop OS, because it does not include a desktop as part of the OS. It is simply capable of running 3rd party desktop software. > Of course, if we talk about non-open source projects as well, > then Apple's OS X system is also a big progress maker as far as > unix-as-a-desktop-being-acceptable-by-the-main-stream goes. Apple's OS X is not what I would call a "unix". Certainly, the Mach based underlying kernel is unix-like, and the FreeBSD tools are unix-like. But the desktop is MacOS version 10. It may be the closest thing to Unix as a desktop, but I think they have more desktop and less Unix. Besides the fact that they are on a completely different hardware platform which costs 3 times as much. I disagree with Mac OS X being considered a unix-as-a-desktop in this conversation since we are mainly (for now) an i386 OS. > > Stating > > that FreeBSD has no place on the desktop isn't slamming FreeBSD, since > > FreeBSD is first and foremost a server operating system. > > I would definitely agree that FreeBSD has it's strength in use as a server > operating system. Now we may be getting down to hairs here, but there is a > difference between statements such as: > "FreeBSD is not the best desktop operating system." > "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop." > "FreeBSD has value in certain desktop operating system applications." > or as the web page (at www.freebsd.org) says: > "It is well-suited for a great number of both desktop and server > applications." > Which would you say is the best for a FreeBSD advocate to use? Well, there's a difference. It depends on what you're advocating FreeBSD FOR. At this point in time, I would not advocate FreeBSD as a desktop. Period. I would probably say "FreeBSD, and Linux, are not good desktop operating systems". > > > To say that Unix > > has no place on the desktop is a completely valid opinion, and does not > > detract from FreeBSD, ***until such time as FreeBSD claims to be a desktop > > OS*** > > > > How would you define "claims to be a desktop OS?" Would that quote from the > web page be considered a claim, or would it be considered not a claim? Is it your opinion that the core FreeBSD team considers FreeBSD a desktop OS ? I doubt it. > advocate to modify a statement such as "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" > to something such as "FreeBSD has no appeal as a desktop operating system to > the mainstream computer user." It'd be even more FreeBSD-advocating to use > a phrase like the one on the web site, eg "It is well-suited for a great > number of both desktop and server applications." What, are we developing some standard "party line" that we can deliver rather than our real opinion ? I recommend FreeBSD as a server operating system whole-heartedly. I do not recommend it as a desktop operating system. Why would I say what you're saying when I don't agree ? > Let me give one more example. If we agree now that FreeBSD in certain > specific desktop environments makes a whole lot of sense I do not agree. > a server operating system makes sense in certain specific situations, than > let me ask you this. If someone sent an email to a windows-advocacy list > that made the statement "Windows has no place as a server OS," don't you > think 1) that would be inappropriate for that list, and 2) that person was > not a windows advocate? You're saying that if someone doesn't advocate an OS BOTH in the server and desktop, then they are not an advocate of the OS. That's denying people the right to have a more fine grained opinion, and truely speak what's on their mind. I am a FreeBSD _SERVER_ Advocate. I am a Windows 2000/XP _DESKTOP_ Advocate. How simple is that ? > While again, I have said it is fine as an > opinion, I still claim it is not welcome on a list which has as it's charter > FreeBSD advocacy. I think that's ridiculous. You have this idea that somehow to be an advocate of FreeBSD, you have to support it in all of it's efforts. I do not support FreeBSD as a desktop. I don't think it SHOULD enter the desktop arena, any more than it already does with Gnome and KDE. The minute kernel developers start concentrating on coding for desktop applications, and any large share of their time is spent on the desktop aspect, I will know it is time to move to another *BSD. FreeBSD is a SERVER operating system. An EXCELLENT one. The best, in my opinion. That's because the focus is where it belongs. When that focus changes, and FreeBSD starts to become a wannabe desktop OS like Linux, I will be very sad. If people want to keep support going for Gnome and KDE, support X, and get desktop aps in the ports tree, that's great. When desktop code starts appearing in /usr/src, then you'll know FreeBSD is trying to become a desktop OS. I'll submit this idea for everyone to chew on. I don't believe you can have a single operating system be both a good server operating system, or a good desktop operating system. The opensource community's efforts to provide a desktop are about as feeble as Windows' efforts to make a server. Sure they both "work" but they're a far cry from the best. On the other hand, when operating systems focus on one area, they can produce something excellent, such as FreeBSD on a server, and Windows 2000 Professional on a desktop. Finally, I don't see what exactly the point of all this is. You're not actually recommending FreeBSD as a desktop. You're recommending XFree86 with Gnome or KDE, or some other window manager. None of those projects are directly associated with FreeBSD. Perhaps a better place for your FreeBSD as a desktop advocacy is on Gnome-Advocacy. You know how I can tell FreeBSD is not a desktop OS ? Find me a desktop in /usr/src. Until then, let Gnome and KDE continue their hard work developing a desktop. Either of those were truly worthy of desktop use (IMO), then perhaps I would recommend FreeBSD as a backend for the Gnome or KDE desktop. Notice the phrasing. FreeBSD is no more a desktop than Darwin is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 9: 1:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFDFE37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4249 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 17:01:26 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 17:01:26 -0000 Message-ID: <001e01c18978$0ad952a0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Juvenal Flores" , References: <20011219220140.F21144-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <001601c1891a$b7fe35d0$e902000a@compy733> Subject: Re: wewps Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:01:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is getting annoying; I'm subscribed to this mailing list to get emails > about any security advisories that has to do with freebsd and NOT to get > 100's of emails about people talking about logos and trademarks or what not. > There is a time and place for everything and this is not the place. Can you spell advisory ? Can you spell advocacy ? Can you define advocacy ? You're on the wrong list genius. Try security@freebsd.org You're not going to find any security advisories here. Kinda funny that you scolded everyone for being OT when you're on the wrong list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 9: 4:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ADF9A37B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4275 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 17:04:13 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 17:04:13 -0000 Message-ID: <002801c18978$6ecb69b0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Gilbert Gong" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <014501c18927$2a552ec0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <008901c18961$ef58ece0$1400a8c0@blah.com> <01af01c18968$3f277880$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:03:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You may be correct on this. But then shouldn't > you say to us: "The best way to advocate FreeBSD > is to talk about it as a server, and never mention > it as a desktop system."? You hit the nail on the head. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 11:20:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from chen.org.nz (tnt1-9.quicksilver.net.nz [202.89.142.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991F637B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by chen.org.nz (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKJL5V03215; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:21:05 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:21:03 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Message-ID: <20011221082103.A2821@grimoire.chen.org.nz> References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> <000a01c18977$9007ac20$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000a01c18977$9007ac20$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey>; from jeremiah@sherline.com on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:58:08AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:58:08AM -0800, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: [...] > Apple's OS X is not what I would call a "unix". Certainly, the Mach based > underlying kernel is unix-like, and the FreeBSD tools are unix-like. But > the desktop is MacOS version 10. It may be the closest thing to Unix as a > desktop, but I think they have more desktop and less Unix. Apple's OS X has as much right to be called UNIX as FreeBSD, Irix, AIX, and any other variant out there. You're confusing the glitzy front-end from the heart beneath beast. -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 11:25: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9D037B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKJOrR29348; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:24:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01d701c1898c$00b28210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Gilbert Gong" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> <000a01c18977$9007ac20$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:24:53 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah writes: > The minute kernel developers start concentrating > on coding for desktop applications, and any large > share of their time is spent on the desktop aspect, > I will know it is time to move to another *BSD. I fully agree. This is one of my concerns for FreeBSD. I expect Linux to move in that direction, but since it is such a crude operating system to begin with, I don't see that as much of a loss. FreeBSD, on the other hand, is a fine server operating system, and compromising its strengths just to make it look better on the desktop would be a step in the wrong direction. Microsoft made this same mistake with its transition from NT 3.x to NT 4.x, in which it compromised stability and security on the NT platform in order to more intimately integrate the GUI into the kernel. While that helped NT on the desktop (which was presumably the goal), it hurt NT as a server. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 11:28: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B9E237B41C for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4947 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 19:27:56 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 19:27:56 -0000 Message-ID: <026c01c1898c$65bf30e0$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Jonathan Chen" Cc: References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <013b01c188f1$b3788340$1400a8c0@blah.com> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> <000a01c18977$9007ac20$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <20011221082103.A2821@grimoire.chen.org.nz> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:22:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Apple's OS X is not what I would call a "unix". Certainly, the Mach based > > underlying kernel is unix-like, and the FreeBSD tools are unix-like. But > > the desktop is MacOS version 10. It may be the closest thing to Unix as a > > desktop, but I think they have more desktop and less Unix. > > Apple's OS X has as much right to be called UNIX as FreeBSD, Irix, > AIX, and any other variant out there. You're confusing the glitzy > front-end from the heart beneath beast. I believe I did differentiate between the kernel and the desktop, did I not ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 12:16:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78ADE37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6002 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 20:16:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 20:16:30 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <002801c18978$6ecb69b0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:16:12 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Gilbert Gong , Anthony Atkielski Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> You may be correct on this. But then shouldn't >> you say to us: "The best way to advocate FreeBSD >> is to talk about it as a server, and never mention >> it as a desktop system."? > > You hit the nail on the head. If you think that I'm going to try to work on the FreeBSD kernel using Visual C++ on a Windows box because you think that is the best desktop environment for me to use, then you must be smoking some serious stuff. You are saying that the desktop software (X) that can be run on FreeBSD is not appropriate for ANY use by ANY person. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 12:16:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47F137B41B for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23345 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 20:16:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 20:16:30 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01d701c1898c$00b28210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:16:13 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Jeremiah writes: > >> The minute kernel developers start concentrating >> on coding for desktop applications, and any large >> share of their time is spent on the desktop aspect, >> I will know it is time to move to another *BSD. > > I fully agree. This is one of my concerns for FreeBSD. I expect Linux to > move in that direction, but since it is such a crude operating system to > begin with, I don't see that as much of a loss. FreeBSD, on the other hand, > is a fine server operating system, and compromising its strengths just to > make it look better on the desktop would be a step in the wrong direction. > > Microsoft made this same mistake with its transition from NT 3.x to NT 4.x, > in which it compromised stability and security on the NT platform in order > to more intimately integrate the GUI into the kernel. While that helped NT > on the desktop (which was presumably the goal), it hurt NT as a server. FreeBSD is never going to integrate a GUI into its kernel. That should just be phenomenally stupid. :) However, it can provide optimizations to make the OS better support desktop software. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 12:16:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A1237B41D for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22289 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 20:16:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 20:16:28 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000a01c18977$9007ac20$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Gilbert Gong Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> Of course, if we talk about non-open source projects as well, >> then Apple's OS X system is also a big progress maker as far as >> unix-as-a-desktop-being-acceptable-by-the-main-stream goes. > > Apple's OS X is not what I would call a "unix". Certainly, the Mach based > underlying kernel is unix-like, and the FreeBSD tools are unix-like. But > the desktop is MacOS version 10. It may be the closest thing to Unix as a > desktop, but I think they have more desktop and less Unix. Besides the fact > that they are on a completely different hardware platform which costs 3 > times as much. I disagree with Mac OS X being considered a > unix-as-a-desktop in this conversation since we are mainly (for now) an i386 > OS. Have you played with an OS X box? It is definitely a Unix box. :) It does come with a pretty desktop environment though in the form of Aqua. However, you can drop into the console and interact with the box on a pure text mode basis if you want. >> > To say that Unix >> > has no place on the desktop is a completely valid opinion, and does not >> > detract from FreeBSD, ***until such time as FreeBSD claims to be a > desktop >> > OS*** >> > >> >> How would you define "claims to be a desktop OS?" Would that quote from > the >> web page be considered a claim, or would it be considered not a claim? > > Is it your opinion that the core FreeBSD team considers FreeBSD a desktop OS > ? I doubt it. Well, 2 of them work for Apple, so they would probably go with OS X. All the others use FreeBSD for their desktop AFAIK. However, what constitutes a desktop OS? Some people are using the definition of being suitable for at least some people which FreeBSD is. I think the other definition people are using is "I could let my Mom use it." FreeBSD is not this for most of us. :) Although I think I may try and get my Mom to mess with a FreeBSD box here before too long. >> Let me give one more example. If we agree now that FreeBSD in certain >> specific desktop environments makes a whole lot of sense > > I do not agree. How about the specific environment of working on software that runs on FreeBSD whether it be the kernel, userland tools, or KDE. FreeBSD is an excellent choose for those specific desktop environments. You are saying that FreeBSD is not a valid desktop for _any_ desktop environment which is a bit strong I think. > Finally, I don't see what exactly the point of all this is. You're not > actually recommending FreeBSD as a desktop. You're recommending XFree86 > with Gnome or KDE, or some other window manager. None of those projects are > directly associated with FreeBSD. Perhaps a better place for your FreeBSD > as a desktop advocacy is on Gnome-Advocacy. You know how I can tell FreeBSD > is not a desktop OS ? Find me a desktop in /usr/src. This is very true. However, the kernel can be designed so as to not needlessly hurt performance on desktop boxes and to help it when such doesn't hurt server performance. This includes adding tweaks for uniprocessor boxes, for example. In fact, the BSD scheduler actually prefers interactive user interface processes to background CPU-intensive "server" processes. :) Although some servers are fairly I/O intensive (think apache) and some user interface programs are rather CPU intensive (X). > Until then, let Gnome and KDE continue their hard work developing a desktop. > Either of those were truly worthy of desktop use (IMO), then perhaps I would > recommend FreeBSD as a backend for the Gnome or KDE desktop. Notice the > phrasing. FreeBSD is no more a desktop than Darwin is. Hmm, someone should port Gnome or KDE to windows just for fun. The tricky bit here is Windows ties its OS and desktop environment together a bit tightly so that it can avoid competition, whereas Unix's philosophy of building solutions from many speciailized tools has led to a cleaner separation between OS and UI. If someone ported KDE to Windows/DOS, which OS would you recommend as the best desktop-friendly OS to run it on? If someone ported the Windows UI to FreeBSD, which UI would you then recommend to a FreeBSD user? Those are more sensible questions I think than comparing the Windows UI with the FreeBSD kernel. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 12:27:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail00.cdocs.com (mail00.cdocs.com [208.217.166.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CADE37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from zuul (localhost [127.0.0.1]) Message-Id: <200112202027.OAA26931@mail00.cdocs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Warren Smith Organization: Corporate Document Systems To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:27:25 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> In-Reply-To: <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 20 December 2001 03:49 am, Gilbert wrote: > At the very least, a statement such as "FreeBSD has no place on the > desktop" should have certain qualifiers. For example, I know many > people that run FreeBSD as a desktop operating system. Many people > that work at ISPs do. When I worked at an ISP I used FreeBSD as an > operating system. The main thing is what the majority of one's > work involves. At the ISP, the majority of my time was spent > logged into routers. I found a Unix operating system to facilitate > that much better than Windows. There are many engineering CAD > users that use Unix as a desktop operating system (perhaps not the > majority, but a significant number, I believe). In that > environment, FreeBSD might be a valid option. There are many Unix > software engineers/programmers that use Unix as a desktop > enviroment. Here again, FreeBSD would be a valid option (more so > than the CAD/CAM users, who probably need high end accelerated > video card support, which isn't a FreeBSD strength, though with a > commercial accelerated X server it may do better, I do not know for > sure). I am sure others could come up with more potential desktop > users, but my point is, I would think it reasonable to ask anyone > that considers themselves a FreeBSD advocate to modify a statement > such as "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop" to something such as > "FreeBSD has no appeal as a desktop operating system to the > mainstream computer user." It'd be even more FreeBSD-advocating to > use a phrase like the one on the web site, eg "It is well-suited > for a great number of both desktop and server applications." I agree. My last job was as a Network Engineer and backup SysAdmin at an ISP. FreeBSD on my desktop made perfect sense for what my job entailed (configuring Cisco routers and administering *NIX servers). Did it make sense for our Tech Support staff to have FreeBSD on their desktop? No. They needed to be running what most of our customers were running and that meant a flavor of Windows. In my current job as a programmer, most of the code that I write is intended to run on some flavor of *NIX and most of my code is written on a development *NIX box using vim via telnet/ssh. Because of this, what desktop I use doesn't really matter as long as I have access to a decent telnet/ssh client, web browser, and email client. One of my co-workers uses Windows because that is what he is most familiar with. Another co-worker uses Slackware Linux because he preferes it over Windows. I use FreeBSD because I prefer it over the other OSs that I could use to do the job (Windows and Linux included). I don't claim that it is the best desktop around, nor do I agree that "FreeBSD has no place on the desktop". It works great as MY desktop, but YMMV depending on what you need a desktop to do. For the vast majority of computer users, Windows does make the most sense for a desktop because it is what most people use. This is important for a variety of reasons including: 1. Variety of available applications (including games) 2. Probability that a trusted friend can help them when they have a problem. However, just as FreeBSD is often ill-suited for the average desktop when compared to Windows, Windows is often ill-suited for the average server when compared to FreeBSD. Small businesses that choose Windows as a server OS are often unaware that there are alternatives that, while requiring a little more expertise to set up initially, can save them significant time and money down the road. IMHO, if FreeBSD is going to penetrate the market in any major way, more people that make decisions about what OS to run on their company server need to be educated about the merits of *NIX in general and FreeBSD in particular. Once they become familiar with its strengths as a server OS, they will also be familiar with the strengths (and weaknesses) it has as an OS in general and they can experiment and judge for themselves if it makes a good desktop for their particular needs. Ideas and news on the education of these people is the type of subject matter that I hope to see on this list. Many of the posts of late have done little to "advocate" FreeBSD and may have confirmed the negative things that some people have heard about Linux/*NIX/BSD "advocates." Just my $0.02 (or maybe $0.04, since this has gotten rather long. My apologies) -- Warren Smith To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13: 2:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8423D37B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16HAL0-0007nj-00; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:02:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:02:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What is UNIX? (was Re: Microsoft Advocacy?) In-Reply-To: <20011221082103.A2821@grimoire.chen.org.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Jonathan Chen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:58:08AM -0800, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > [...] > > Apple's OS X is not what I would call a "unix". Certainly, the Mach based > > underlying kernel is unix-like, and the FreeBSD tools are unix-like. But > > the desktop is MacOS version 10. It may be the closest thing to Unix as a > > desktop, but I think they have more desktop and less Unix. > > Apple's OS X has as much right to be called UNIX as FreeBSD, Irix, > AIX, and any other variant out there. You're confusing the glitzy > front-end from the heart beneath beast. Or maybe more right to be called UNIX(r) than FreeBSD. ("UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group".) The Open group lists Apple as a platform vendor supporting the Single UNIX Specification: http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/single_unix_specification.html An article at osOpinion before Apple was listed: http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/9451.html How much does it cost to take the specification tests? (I am also curious why BSD/OS never became an official UNIX.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13: 9:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BB4037B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5492 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:09:39 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 21:09:39 -0000 Message-ID: <000f01c1899a$b4c5b7f0$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" , "Anthony Atkielski" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:10:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If you think that I'm going to try to work on the > FreeBSD kernel using Visual C++ on a Windows box > because you think that is the best desktop > environment for me to use, then you must be > smoking some serious stuff. You are saying that > the desktop software (X) that can be run on > FreeBSD is not appropriate for ANY use by ANY person. My perspective, as a programmer, is that (a) there's a difference between a desktop and a development machine and (b) you should always try to develop on the platform you're developing for. By that reasoning, no I do not think you should use Visual C++ to develop for FreeBSD, although I have written portable apps in VC++ that compile nicely under FreeBSD as well. I didn't say that X wasn't useful to some people. I said that it is my opinion that it does not make a good desktop, and it's existance doesn't make FreeBSD a desktop OS. If the inclusion of 3rd party desktop software makes an OS considered a "desktop OS", then I suppose we could call HURD a desktop OS as well, along with any bare kernel that can support X. I consider a desktop OS to be a little more than a kernel that can execute X. ___________________________________________ Jeremiah Gowdy IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator Sherline Products Inc 3235 Executive Ridge Vista CA 92083-8527 IT Dept: 760-727-9492 Sales: 1-800-541-0735 International: (760) 727-5857 Fax: (760) 727-7857 ___________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:15:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E17237B420 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25252 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:15:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 21:15:45 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000f01c1899a$b4c5b7f0$03e2cbd8@server> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:15:28 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> If you think that I'm going to try to work on the >> FreeBSD kernel using Visual C++ on a Windows box >> because you think that is the best desktop >> environment for me to use, then you must be >> smoking some serious stuff. You are saying that >> the desktop software (X) that can be run on >> FreeBSD is not appropriate for ANY use by ANY person. > > My perspective, as a programmer, is that (a) there's a difference between a > desktop and a development machine and (b) you should always try to develop > on the platform you're developing for. By that reasoning, no I do not think > you should use Visual C++ to develop for FreeBSD, although I have written > portable apps in VC++ that compile nicely under FreeBSD as well. I didn't > say that X wasn't useful to some people. I said that it is my opinion that > it does not make a good desktop, and it's existance doesn't make FreeBSD a > desktop OS. If the inclusion of 3rd party desktop software makes an OS > considered a "desktop OS", then I suppose we could call HURD a desktop OS as > well, along with any bare kernel that can support X. I consider a desktop > OS to be a little more than a kernel that can execute X. I think desktop OS is misnomer. UI and OS are two separate things, regardless of how much MS ties the two together. :) And you have said that you think FreeBSD is not a viable desktop for specific circumstances. That is equivalent to it not being valid for _any_ circumstance. Saying it is valid for specific circumstances is saying that it isn't necessarily appropriate for all circumstances, but there are instances where it is, which is what I think you really think as well. Hmm, and I should s/FreeBSD/X/. FreeBSD can tweak certain things to make it desktop environment friendly, but X is really the desktop. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:24:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3A637B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLOaR29756; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:24:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <022301c1899c$b9f63b30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:24:36 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > If you think that I'm going to try to work on > the FreeBSD kernel using Visual C++ on a Windows > box because you think that is the best desktop > environment for me to use, then you must be > smoking some serious stuff. Nobody has suggested that. > You are saying that the desktop software (X) that > can be run on FreeBSD is not appropriate for ANY > use by ANY person. No, _you_ are saying that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:26: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293D537B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLQ2R29769; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:26:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <022801c1899c$ecb54250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:26:01 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > FreeBSD is never going to integrate a GUI > into its kernel. Good. > That should just be phenomenally stupid. Other phenomenally stupid things have been done in the past, e.g., rewriting a crude UNIX kernel from scratch and then hyping it as the best UNIX OS on the planet. > However, it can provide optimizations to make > the OS better support desktop software. Uh-oh. Such as? And what happens to its support of server software? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:28:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 177AC37B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5734 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:28:15 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 21:28:15 -0000 Message-ID: <001501c1899d$4e36a780$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:28:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Apple's OS X is not what I would call a "unix". Certainly, the Mach based > > underlying kernel is unix-like, and the FreeBSD tools are unix-like. But > > the desktop is MacOS version 10. It may be the closest thing to Unix as a > > desktop, but I think they have more desktop and less Unix. Besides the fact > > that they are on a completely different hardware platform which costs 3 > > times as much. I disagree with Mac OS X being considered a > > unix-as-a-desktop in this conversation since we are mainly (for now) an i386 > > OS. > > Have you played with an OS X box? It is definitely a Unix box. :) It does > come with a pretty desktop environment though in the form of Aqua. However, > you can drop into the console and interact with the box on a pure text mode > basis if you want. I'll retract part of my Mac OS X statements and simply say this. Okay, we accept Mac OS X as an example of a successful Unix desktop OS. Then I simply say this. Another Mac OS X, FreeBSD is not. Not even close. > >> Let me give one more example. If we agree now that FreeBSD in certain > >> specific desktop environments makes a whole lot of sense > > > > I do not agree. > > How about the specific environment of working on software that runs on FreeBSD > whether it be the kernel, userland tools, or KDE. FreeBSD is an excellent > choose for those specific desktop environments. You are saying that FreeBSD is > not a valid desktop for _any_ desktop environment which is a bit strong I think. I didn't convey my opinion properly then. I don't mean to completely invalidate the usefulness of X, Gnome, KDE, etc. Certainly they are useful or they wouldn't exist. I just don't find them to be a complete desktop, and _even_if_they_were_, I don't believe that would make FreeBSD a "desktop OS". > This is very true. However, the kernel can be designed so as to not > needlessly hurt performance on desktop boxes and to help it when such doesn't > hurt server performance. This includes adding tweaks for uniprocessor boxes, > for example. In fact, the BSD scheduler actually prefers interactive user > interface processes to background CPU-intensive "server" processes. :) > Although some servers are fairly I/O intensive (think apache) and some user > interface programs are rather CPU intensive (X). If I remember from reading D&I of the BSD4.4 OS, I believe that design was implemented long before BSD had any kind of GUI. Perhaps I'm wrong, since I wasn't around back then, and my knowledge isn't too certain. > > Until then, let Gnome and KDE continue their hard work developing a desktop. > > Either of those were truly worthy of desktop use (IMO), then perhaps I would > > recommend FreeBSD as a backend for the Gnome or KDE desktop. Notice the > > phrasing. FreeBSD is no more a desktop than Darwin is. > > Hmm, someone should port Gnome or KDE to windows just for fun. The tricky bit > here is Windows ties its OS and desktop environment together a bit tightly so > that it can avoid competition, whereas Unix's philosophy of building solutions > from many speciailized tools has led to a cleaner separation between OS and > UI. Uhm, what would Windows tying their OS and desktop so tightly do to stop you from porting Gnome or KDE ? The most simple option would be to set the shell (normally explorer.exe) to your software, use DirectDraw to black the entire screen, and there you go. You have DirectDraw primatives which could be used for whatever you wanted to implement. I don't see how the "tightness" between the Windows kernel and the Windows UI is an issue, nor why it seems to be used to somehow detract from the OS. When an OS is ONLY or primarily a desktop OS, the kernel and the UI _should_ be tight. > If someone ported KDE to Windows/DOS, which OS would you recommend as the best > desktop-friendly OS to run it on? If someone ported the Windows UI to FreeBSD, > which UI would you then recommend to a FreeBSD user? Both of these questions would obviously depend on the implementation. Assuming all of the theoretical coding was up to par... I would say, obviously use FreeBSD as the kernel for KDE, over Windows, because I don't like Windows for it's kernel, I like Windows for it's UI. I like FreeBSD for it's kernel. Now if, in some magical way, the Windows UI could be ported to FreeBSD, and if there was binary application support for it, I would switch to Windows/FreeBSD. This all agrees with my original statement. Windows UI = good. FreeBSD kernel = good. Win32 kernel = well... it has alot of fun APIs to play with. :) You know what's going to be interesting is the company who my friend just got hired by. I don't know how many of you have heard of it, http://www.lindows.com Windows binary compatibility, Linux binary compatibility. I'm trying to get my friend to sneak a few hints in there that he might as well include FreeBSD binary compatibility. If it functioned as advertised, that's an OS I would run. Assuming the UI was worth looking at. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:31:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A837B419; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLVRR29796; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:31:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <023101c1899d$ae7bbc20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:31:27 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Well, 2 of them work for Apple, so they > would probably go with OS X. Uh-oh. Do they have an employment contract with Apple that makes any code they write anywhere property of Apple, or otherwise similarly endangers any work they might do on FreeBSD? > How about the specific environment of working > on software that runs on FreeBSD whether it be > the kernel, userland tools, or KDE. In that specific and unusual situation, the best desktop is usually the target OS for the development, unless you have multiple machines. > This includes adding tweaks for uniprocessor > boxes, for example. What sort of "tweaks"? > In fact, the BSD scheduler actually prefers > interactive user interface processes to > background CPU-intensive "server" processes. So much for server performance, eh? How does it distinguish between the two? > The tricky bit here is Windows ties its OS and > desktop environment together a bit tightly so > that it can avoid competition ... That is done to improve desktop performance, not to avoid competition. Competition is not a problem for Windows. > If someone ported KDE to Windows/DOS, which > OS would you recommend as the best desktop= > friendly OS to run it on? Some flavor of UNIX. > If someone ported the Windows UI to FreeBSD, > which UI would you then recommend to a FreeBSD > user? Some flavor of Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:37:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE4F37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLbXR29821; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:37:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <023a01c1899e$89118770$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Warren Smith" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> <200112202027.OAA26931@mail00.cdocs.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:37:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warren writes: > Small businesses that choose Windows as a > server OS are often unaware that there are > alternatives that, while requiring a little > more expertise to set up initially, can > save them significant time and money down > the road. Small businesses are actually among the best customers for Windows as a server, because they cannot afford the geek talent required to set up, administer, and maintain a UNIX system. The performance hit they take is not significant, because their servers are less likely to be loaded to capacity, anyway. They are also more likely to be able to get by with a canned server solution, and they are more likely to be in an exclusively Windows-based environment, and these details also favor Windows in the back office. Businesses of larger size--any businesses that can afford full-time administrators and/or put extremely heavy demands on servers--are likely to be better off with UNIX, particularly if they have a heterogenous user enviroment. For customized solutions, UNIX may be mandatory, as there is no source to modify with Windows. Right now I'd tend to recommend Windows servers for, say, a small law firm, but FreeBSD for any kind of e-business. I would not recommend Linux for anything except as a pacifier for adolescent males. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:39:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBABC37B425 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLckR29831; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:38:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <023f01c1899e$b42423f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , References: Subject: Re: What is UNIX? (was Re: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:38:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremy writes: > The Open group lists Apple as a platform vendor > supporting the Single UNIX Specification: So Apple was willing to write that check? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:42:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96BDE37B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLgOR29845; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:42:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <024601c1899f$365d63e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: "Gilbert Gong" , References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:42:24 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > I think desktop OS is misnomer. UI and OS are > two separate things, regardless of how much MS > ties the two together. That is true in a strict sense, but today, no ordinary computer user would tolerate a desktop without a GUI. If someone really wants a CLI-based desktop, then UNIX suddenly becomes the OS of choice, as Windows can't even begin to support that sort of environment, whereas UNIX was born for it. It has also occurred to me that blind users might find UNIX to be a very friendly OS. They don't really need or want a GUI, and everything that UNIX can do can usually be done with plain text. > And you have said that you think FreeBSD is not > a viable desktop for specific circumstances. > That is equivalent to it not being valid for > _any_ circumstance. According to what logic? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:43:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2F037B41B for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13701 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:43:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 21:43:43 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <022801c1899c$ecb54250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:43:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> FreeBSD is never going to integrate a GUI >> into its kernel. > > Good. > >> That should just be phenomenally stupid. > > Other phenomenally stupid things have been done in the past, e.g., rewriting > a crude UNIX kernel from scratch and then hyping it as the best UNIX OS on > the planet. > >> However, it can provide optimizations to make >> the OS better support desktop software. > > Uh-oh. Such as? And what happens to its support of server software? Nothing silly. One can just avoid doing bone-headed things. Many things that improve desktop performance _also_ improve server performance (respone time, etc.) They aren't as disparate as you think they are. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:43:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BE737B41C for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20828 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:43:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 21:43:44 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <001501c1899d$4e36a780$03e2cbd8@server> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:43:27 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> If someone ported KDE to Windows/DOS, which OS would you recommend as the > best >> desktop-friendly OS to run it on? If someone ported the Windows UI to > FreeBSD, >> which UI would you then recommend to a FreeBSD user? > > Both of these questions would obviously depend on the implementation. > Assuming all of the theoretical coding was up to par... > > I would say, obviously use FreeBSD as the kernel for KDE, over Windows, > because I don't like Windows for it's kernel, I like Windows for it's UI. I > like FreeBSD for it's kernel. Now if, in some magical way, the Windows UI > could be ported to FreeBSD, and if there was binary application support for > it, I would switch to Windows/FreeBSD. > > This all agrees with my original statement. Windows UI = good. FreeBSD > kernel = good. Win32 kernel = well... it has alot of fun APIs to play with. >:) Fair enough. Those would be my answers as well. :) I just think a clear distinction needs to be made between OS and UI. Perhaps a better statement is that FreeBSD ia fine for a desktop OS if it is supported by the UI you wish to use. :) How does that sound? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:44:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE2C37B41D for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13995 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:43:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 21:43:45 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <023101c1899d$ae7bbc20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Well, 2 of them work for Apple, so they >> would probably go with OS X. > > Uh-oh. Do they have an employment contract with Apple that makes any code > they write anywhere property of Apple, or otherwise similarly endangers any > work they might do on FreeBSD? No. Stop being paranoid. >> How about the specific environment of working >> on software that runs on FreeBSD whether it be >> the kernel, userland tools, or KDE. > > In that specific and unusual situation, the best desktop is usually the > target OS for the development, unless you have multiple machines. It's not that unsual for people writing Unix software. >> This includes adding tweaks for uniprocessor >> boxes, for example. > > What sort of "tweaks"? Spin mutexes in the kernel don't need to actually have a lock to spin against since the disabling of interrupts that they perform is sufficient protection. This provides savings by avoiding the rather expensive atomic operations needed to implement a spin mutex. This actually benefits server performance on UP boxes as well, but I actually thought of this while trying to help out the performance of 5.0 on desktops (usually UP machines, most people don't have SMP desktops). >> In fact, the BSD scheduler actually prefers >> interactive user interface processes to >> background CPU-intensive "server" processes. > > So much for server performance, eh? > > How does it distinguish between the two? It doesn't, because they aren't that different. Get that thought into your head please. The way it works is that when a process performs I/O, it's priority gets bumped if it blocks waiting for I/O, and processes get "punished" for using the CPU. The more CPU they use, the more they get punished. Thus, processes that block on I/O a lot, including most user interactive programs and things like web servers, get a boost since we can run the CPU intensive programs while the I/O ones are waiting for I/O to complete. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:45:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9500C37B41B; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLjjR29888; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:45:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <025501c1899f$ae096060$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Gilbert Gong" , References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:45:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Many things that improve desktop performance > _also_ improve server performance (respone time, > etc.) They aren't as disparate as you think > they are. Describe some of them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:52:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FAF37B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLq3R29904; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:52:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <025a01c189a0$8f750c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Gilbert Gong" , , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:52:02 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > No. Stop being paranoid. It's not paranoid at all. Ever _read_ those employment contracts you sign when you hire on as a software engineer? Even when your employer doesn't claim rights to whatever you write outright, you may still be required to give him first crack at buying any code you write, which can interfere with writing anything intended to be open-source. Having a software company claim rights on a chunk of FreeBSD because of such an agreement would be a very, very serious problem. > It's not that unsual for people writing > Unix software. In that case they can run whatever they want on the desktop. I've written stuff for my FreeBSD box with Visual C++, and then just moved it over with FTP to compile it. The Visual C++ editor and IDE are extremely ergonomic. In some cases, I can also compile and test on Windows, although that is somewhat of an exception to the rule. > Spin mutexes in the kernel don't need to actually > have a lock to spin against since the disabling > of interrupts that they perform is sufficient > protection. What about multiprocessor systems? What about unmaskable interrupts? I prefer spinning against locks, myself. Better safe than sorry. > It doesn't, because they aren't that different. If it makes no distinction, it cannot give either type of process preference. > The way it works is that when a process > performs I/O, it's priority gets bumped if it > blocks waiting for I/O, and processes get > "punished" for using the CPU. What a striking innovation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:53:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3145A37B417; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKLrMR29914; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:53:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <026101c189a0$be415590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: "Gilbert Gong" , References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:53:22 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Perhaps a better statement is that FreeBSD > ia fine for a desktop OS if it is supported > by the UI you wish to use. :) How does > that sound? Yes, that is a reasonable statement. Mac OS X is probably a good example of such an implementation (albeit not using FreeBSD, from what I understand). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:57:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B875137B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20463 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:57:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 21:57:16 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <025501c1899f$ae096060$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:56:59 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Many things that improve desktop performance >> _also_ improve server performance (respone time, >> etc.) They aren't as disparate as you think >> they are. > > Describe some of them. I did in my last mail re: the priority bump for I/O intensive applications and in the optimization of spinlocks on UP machines. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 13:57:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3F337B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21971 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 21:57:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 21:57:15 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <024601c1899f$365d63e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:56:58 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> I think desktop OS is misnomer. UI and OS are >> two separate things, regardless of how much MS >> ties the two together. > > That is true in a strict sense, but today, no ordinary computer user would > tolerate a desktop without a GUI. If someone really wants a CLI-based > desktop, then UNIX suddenly becomes the OS of choice, as Windows can't even > begin to support that sort of environment, whereas UNIX was born for it. > > It has also occurred to me that blind users might find UNIX to be a very > friendly OS. They don't really need or want a GUI, and everything that UNIX > can do can usually be done with plain text. > >> And you have said that you think FreeBSD is not >> a viable desktop for specific circumstances. >> That is equivalent to it not being valid for >> _any_ circumstance. > > According to what logic? Some said (rough paraphrase): FreeBSD is suitable for use as a desktop for specific circumstances. This is equivalent to: FreeBSD is suitable for use as a desktop for at least one circumstance. Jeremiah replied with: "I do not agree." Which is equivalent to: FreeBSD is not suitable for use as a desktop for at least one circumstance. Which is equivalent to: FreeBSD is not suitable for use as a desktop for any circumstance. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14: 7:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF4637B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9167 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 22:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 22:07:42 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <025a01c189a0$8f750c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> No. Stop being paranoid. > > It's not paranoid at all. Ever _read_ those employment contracts you sign > when you hire on as a software engineer? Even when your employer doesn't > claim rights to whatever you write outright, you may still be required to > give him first crack at buying any code you write, which can interfere with > writing anything intended to be open-source. Having a software company > claim rights on a chunk of FreeBSD because of such an agreement would be a > very, very serious problem. Yes, I have read them. I also note that the ones I am willing to sign do not make restrictions on the open source software I develop. >> Spin mutexes in the kernel don't need to actually >> have a lock to spin against since the disabling >> of interrupts that they perform is sufficient >> protection. > > What about multiprocessor systems? What about unmaskable interrupts? Uh, this is _specifically_ for UP machines. Why don't you actually read my messages rather than cutting out the half that answers your questions? Unmaskable interrupts are usually fatal machine exceptions where we are about to panic anyway, so they are not a concern. > I prefer spinning against locks, myself. Better safe than sorry. This only serves to display your ignorance. >> It doesn't, because they aren't that different. > > If it makes no distinction, it cannot give either type of process > preference. You missed my point: this design goal came from worrying about user needs (desktop) rather than server needs. FreeBSD paying attention to the desktop and making some optimizations for it can result in helping out server performance as well. >> The way it works is that when a process >> performs I/O, it's priority gets bumped if it >> blocks waiting for I/O, and processes get >> "punished" for using the CPU. > > What a striking innovation. It was when it was first done in BSD. Please gain some perspective. I am attempting to provide examples to explain a bigger picture idea, but apparently you insist on ignoring/bashing/picking apart/whatever each example rather than seeing the bigger picture. *sigh* -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14:32:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5088F37B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKMWcR30073; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:32:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <026b01c189a6$3bb4b6c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:32:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Some said (rough paraphrase): > > FreeBSD is suitable for use as a desktop for > specific circumstances. > > This is equivalent to: > > FreeBSD is suitable for use as a desktop for > at least one circumstance. > > Jeremiah replied with: > > "I do not agree." > > Which is equivalent to: > > FreeBSD is not suitable for use as a desktop > for at least one circumstance. > > Which is equivalent to: > > FreeBSD is not suitable for use as a desktop > for any circumstance. Your logic is flawed. Your last two conclusions do not follow from the first three statements. Consider this: SomeoneBelieves = OSFree && Suitability && Desktop && Specific; JeremiahBelieves = !(OSType && Suitability && Desktop && Specific); Some Jere OSFree Suitability Desktop Specific true false true true true true false true true true true false false true true true false true [...] false true false false false false Notice that there are multiple values of each variable that would make JeremiahBelieves true, and not just one. Therefore you cannot conclude that one of the variables (Specific = specific circumstances, as opposed to any circumstances) has necessarily changed state to make JeremiahBelieves true; any one of the variables changing to false will make JeremiahBelieves true. Therefore your conclusion above does not follow logically. Now I'm getting worried about spin mutexes and locks. Are you completely sure about those? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14:34:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F49F37B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKMYmR30087; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:34:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <027801c189a6$88c7b390$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:34:02 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > I did in my last mail re: the priority bump > for I/O intensive applications and in the > optimization of spinlocks on UP machines. The former is a feature of just about every OS around; the latter still makes me nervous. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14:41: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E7537B417; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKMesR30110; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:40:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <027901c189a7$62a133c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , , "Gilbert Gong" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:40:54 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Yes, I have read them. I also note that the > ones I am willing to sign do not make restrictions > on the open source software I develop. Even if you are willing to stand your ground, can you be certain that all others do the same? > Uh, this is _specifically_ for UP machines. That occurred to me as I was pressing the send button. > Unmaskable interrupts are usually fatal > machine exceptions where we are about > to panic anyway, so they are not a concern. Usually? What are the exceptions, and how do you handle them? If you have locks that are set only within code that inhibits interrupts, you don't have to worry about the overhead of spinning on them, because they will always be unlocked. If you remove the locks, though, and for any reason the code is interrupted by an unmaskable interrupt, you may experience an unpredictable system failure. Leaving the lock in incurs very little overhead and offers a sanity check, just in case you overlooked something. > This only serves to display your ignorance. No, it simply proves that I've been there, done that, and learned from my mistakes. The longer you write system software, the more conservative and cautious you become. > You missed my point: this design goal came > from worrying about user needs (desktop) rather > than server needs. I don't see how that goal would be specific to a desktop environment. > It was when it was first done in BSD. Maybe it was for BSD, but algorithms like that have been around for as long as operating systems have (or at least since CPUs overtook I/O performance-wise). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14:51:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794DE37B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22568 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 22:51:27 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <026b01c189a6$3bb4b6c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:51:02 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Some said (rough paraphrase): >> >> FreeBSD is suitable for use as a desktop for >> specific circumstances. >> >> This is equivalent to: >> >> FreeBSD is suitable for use as a desktop for >> at least one circumstance. >> >> Jeremiah replied with: >> >> "I do not agree." >> >> Which is equivalent to: >> >> FreeBSD is not suitable for use as a desktop >> for at least one circumstance. >> >> Which is equivalent to: >> >> FreeBSD is not suitable for use as a desktop >> for any circumstance. > > Your logic is flawed. Your last two conclusions do not follow from the > first three statements. Hrm, ok, note that statement 3 is simply statement 2 with a "not" added due to the negation. Can you show the logic error regarding equivalence of either 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 then? > Consider this: > > SomeoneBelieves = OSFree && Suitability && Desktop && Specific; > JeremiahBelieves = !(OSType && Suitability && Desktop && Specific); Err, this is not valid. There aren't 4 statements there are two: (1) For a specific instance, (2) FreeBSD is valid as a desktop. > Now I'm getting worried about spin mutexes and locks. Are you completely > sure about those? Yes, I'm fairly sure. Do you have any notion of how Unix works? All its data protection was by disabling interrupts (short-term protection which is what spin mutexes provide) since it was designed for a UP machine. On SMP blocking interrupts is not sufficient protection because another CPU could be executing the same or similar code, hence the need to synchronize via a spin lock. However, if we know we are not SMP (i.e. a UP kernel) we don't have to worry about synchronizing with another CPU, and can simply disable interrupts. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14:51:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C343E37B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10963 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 22:51:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 22:51:34 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <027901c189a7$62a133c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:51:12 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Yes, I have read them. I also note that the >> ones I am willing to sign do not make restrictions >> on the open source software I develop. > > Even if you are willing to stand your ground, can you be certain that all > others do the same? Yes, I'm quite certain of Mike and Jordan since we worked together at our last jobs and they fought rather vehemently to have the IP agreement toned down to allow unrestricted Open Source development. >> Unmaskable interrupts are usually fatal >> machine exceptions where we are about >> to panic anyway, so they are not a concern. > > Usually? What are the exceptions, and how do you handle them? NMI's on a PC, or a double fault, which you can't really handle. If you get a page fault or some such while holding a spin lock, it is always a panic (usually a null pointer dereference) since we only hold spin locks in very small sections. > If you have locks that are set only within code that inhibits interrupts, > you don't have to worry about the overhead of spinning on them, because they > will always be unlocked. If you remove the locks, though, and for any > reason the code is interrupted by an unmaskable interrupt, you may > experience an unpredictable system failure. Leaving the lock in incurs very > little overhead and offers a sanity check, just in case you overlooked > something. Uh, no. Atomic operations are _quite_ expensive. On x86, they lock the bus which means waiting until the bus is free. On sparc64, they involve using a barrier that forces the CPU to flush its store buffer before handling the actual atomic operation. Alpha, ia64, and ppc have similar expenses. But anyways, this isn't an advocacy issue. If you really care, first go look at some actual code to see where these things are used and how, then you can bring up a discussion on -arch, -hackers, -smp, or some other more appropriate list in response to whenever I get around to committing it after testing. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 14:55:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2266F37B420 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27733 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 22:55:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 22:55:44 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy , Anthony Atkielski Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 John Baldwin wrote: > Err, this is not valid. There aren't 4 statements there are two: > > (1) For a specific instance, (2) FreeBSD is valid as a desktop. Actually, it would be better written as so: Someone belives that there exists some specific circumstance such that FreeBSD is a valid desktop. The opposite of this statement (as should be evident from basic Math proof courses) is: For all specific circumstances, FreeBSD is not a valid desktop. This, then, is what Jeremiah "believes". -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15: 0:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06FB37B41A; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKN0LR30195; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:00:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02b301c189aa$1a1872a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Gilbert Gong" , References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:00:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Err, this is not valid. There aren't 4 statements > there are two: No. There are multiple variables that can be negated. I count at least four: OS is FreeBSD (true or false) OS is suitable for use (true or false) Use is desktop (true or false) Circumstances are specific (true or false) > Yes, I'm fairly sure. Fairly sure? Not certain? > Do you have any notion of how Unix works? I haven't looked at the specific code in UNIX, but all operating systems do this in very much the same way. > However, if we know we are not SMP (i.e. a UP > kernel) we don't have to worry about synchronizing > with another CPU, and can simply disable interrupts. Unless, of course, there are interrupts that you must service but cannot mask, in which case you are (often) hosed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15: 2:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C40737B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKN2OR30207; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:02:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02b601c189aa$632a5990$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Gilbert Gong" , , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:02:24 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Atomic operations are _quite_ expensive. On > x86, they lock the bus which means waiting until > the bus is free. How much time do you gain, percentage-wise, in the routines in which locks have been eliminated? > If you really care, first go look at some > actual code to see where these things are > used and how ... Any suggestions on modules to examine? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15: 7:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F3037B41A; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKN7bR30226; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:07:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02c101c189ab$1dc9c560$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:07:37 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Actually, it would be better written as so: > > Someone belives that there exists some > specific circumstance such that FreeBSD is a > valid desktop. The opposite of this statement > (as should be evident from basic Math proof > courses) is: For all specific circumstances, > FreeBSD is not a valid desktop. This, then, > is what Jeremiah "believes". You are overlooking many possibilities. If the original statement is "There exists some specific circumstance in which FreeBSD is a suitable desktop," then if Jeremiah disagrees with this, he may disagree in multiple ways, including (but not limited to): 1. There exists some specific circumstance in which FreeBSD is NOT a suitable desktop. 2. There exists some specific circumstance in which something other than FreeBSD (NOT FreeBSD) is a suitable desktop. 3. There exists some specific circumstance in which FreeBSD is an unsuitable desktop. 4. There exists NO specific circumstance in which FreeBSD is NOT a suitable desktop. And so on, through many permutations. Since there are many possibilities, you cannot conclude that one of them is the one Jeremiah intended. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15:12:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D20F37B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16016 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 23:12:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 23:12:18 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02b601c189aa$632a5990$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:12:01 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Atomic operations are _quite_ expensive. On >> x86, they lock the bus which means waiting until >> the bus is free. > > How much time do you gain, percentage-wise, in the routines in which locks > have been eliminated? On x86, atomic operations can take 100's of clock cycles in comparison with zero when you dont' have to do the move at all. Not that lack of load/modify/store is always faster than doing the operation. :) Also, note that it is on if you have any sort of lock debugging turned on. >> If you really care, first go look at some >> actual code to see where these things are >> used and how ... > > Any suggestions on modules to examine? Any of the scheduler code in current. sys/kern/kern_synch.c (as well as sys/kern/kern_intr.c:ithread_schedule() to see what we do for a hardware interrupt). To see how mutexes are implemented, sys/sys/mutex.h, and sys/kern/kern_mutex.c. The atomic manpage (man 9 atomic) on current will also be helpful in grokking this stuff. Also, for a good reference about how locking works in Unix, you can read the books 'Unix for Modern Architectures: Symmetric Multiprocessing and Caching for Kernel Programmers' by Curt Schemmel (I may have botched the name) or 'Unix Internals: The New Frontiers' by Uresh Vahalia. For a brief overview of the types of locks used in -current, you can also read my paper about the subject in the BSDCon proceedings. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15:12:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5608937B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 32412 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 23:12:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 23:12:20 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02c101c189ab$1dc9c560$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:12:02 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Actually, it would be better written as so: >> >> Someone belives that there exists some >> specific circumstance such that FreeBSD is a >> valid desktop. The opposite of this statement >> (as should be evident from basic Math proof >> courses) is: For all specific circumstances, >> FreeBSD is not a valid desktop. This, then, >> is what Jeremiah "believes". > > You are overlooking many possibilities. > > If the original statement is "There exists some specific circumstance in > which FreeBSD is a suitable desktop," then if Jeremiah disagrees with this, > he may disagree in multiple ways, including (but not limited to): No. Have you had a math class involving "there-exists" proofs? If I say "There exists some number X such that X^2 is 16." and you say "No, I don't agree". That means you don't think that there is an X such that X^2 is 16. This is the same as saying that for all possibilites of X, X^2 != 16. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15:32:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514CE37B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKNWqR30315; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:32:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02e401c189ae$a52a9270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Gilbert Gong" , References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:32:47 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > If I say "There exists some number X such > that X^2 is 16." and you say "No, I don't > agree". That means you don't think that > there is an X such that X^2 is 16. Not necessarily. There is much ambiguity in natural language, although your contrived example above contains considerably less of it than the original statement you attempted to analyze. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15:34:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F3437B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20723 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2001 23:34:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Dec 2001 23:34:31 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02e401c189ae$a52a9270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:34:12 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> If I say "There exists some number X such >> that X^2 is 16." and you say "No, I don't >> agree". That means you don't think that >> there is an X such that X^2 is 16. > > Not necessarily. There is much ambiguity in natural language, although your > contrived example above contains considerably less of it than the original > statement you attempted to analyze. Nevermind, if you don't grok logic, that's ok, I'll just give up. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 15:41: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA4437B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:40:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBKNeuR30356; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:40:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02ed01c189af$c54f5f80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:40:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John writes: > Nevermind, if you don't grok logic, that's ok, > I'll just give up. I hope you don't code the way you debate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 17:47:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9DF9C37B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7185 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2001 01:47:40 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 2001 01:47:40 -0000 Message-ID: <002201c189c1$8fd15a40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Gilbert Gong" References: <02ed01c189af$c54f5f80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:47:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > John writes: > > > Nevermind, if you don't grok logic, that's ok, > > I'll just give up. > > I hope you don't code the way you debate. At this point, I can say this thread is over. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 19:33:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39EB37B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBL3XmR31400; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:33:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <033001c189d0$4e0703d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , , "Gilbert Gong" References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:33:48 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks for the references; I've added the books to my wish list, and I'll look at the code. One thing I wonder: If performance is so important that a few hundred clock cycles matter, why is the code written in C? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Baldwin" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" ; ; "Gilbert Gong" Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 00:12 Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? > > On 20-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > John writes: > > > >> Atomic operations are _quite_ expensive. On > >> x86, they lock the bus which means waiting until > >> the bus is free. > > > > How much time do you gain, percentage-wise, in the routines in which locks > > have been eliminated? > > On x86, atomic operations can take 100's of clock cycles in comparison with > zero when you dont' have to do the move at all. Not that lack of > load/modify/store is always faster than doing the operation. :) Also, note > that it is on if you have any sort of lock debugging turned on. > > >> If you really care, first go look at some > >> actual code to see where these things are > >> used and how ... > > > > Any suggestions on modules to examine? > > Any of the scheduler code in current. sys/kern/kern_synch.c (as well as > sys/kern/kern_intr.c:ithread_schedule() to see what we do for a hardware > interrupt). To see how mutexes are implemented, sys/sys/mutex.h, and > sys/kern/kern_mutex.c. The atomic manpage (man 9 atomic) on current will also > be helpful in grokking this stuff. Also, for a good reference about how > locking works in Unix, you can read the books 'Unix for Modern Architectures: > Symmetric Multiprocessing and Caching for Kernel Programmers' by Curt Schemmel > (I may have botched the name) or 'Unix Internals: The New Frontiers' by Uresh > Vahalia. For a brief overview of the types of locks used in -current, you can > also read my paper about the subject in the BSDCon proceedings. > > -- > > John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 19:36:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6182637B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBL3ahR31419; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:36:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <033601c189d0$b591f910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" , Subject: Microsoft sues Lindows Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:36:42 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Microsoft is suing Lindows, Inc., claiming that the latter's name conflicts with the former's Windows trademark: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8246647.html?tag=mn_hd Not really anything specific to FreeBSD, but since it is UNIX it seemed interesting anyway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 20:41:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.harvestberkeley.org (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AED37B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from blah (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ggong.harvestberkeley.org (8.11.2/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBL4flK42984; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:41:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <006401c189d9$be35f400$1400a8c0@blah.com> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Warren Smith" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> <200112202027.OAA26931@mail00.cdocs.com> <023a01c1899e$89118770$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:41:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Right now I'd tend to recommend Windows servers for, say, a small law firm, > but FreeBSD for any kind of e-business. I would not recommend Linux for > anything except as a pacifier for adolescent males. > I am almost loathe to say this, but Linux does have it's place. Since we are discussing the relative merits and strengths of each system.. Linux has much better java support, which is actually a "killer app" for many companies. Most companies that want to use java are better off using linux in that role. There are also some applications which are tricky to get running on FreeBSD, eg Oracle. Though most places that run oracle probably don't use linux either ;) I'm not too familiar with Linux apps overall though, and most of them run fine under FreeBSD. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 21:18:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFFF37B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBL5IJR31658; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:18:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <035501c189de$e7f458e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Gilbert Gong" , "Warren Smith" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <000901c18931$b11daf40$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <001001c1893b$a164d420$69cab8d0@blah.com> <200112202027.OAA26931@mail00.cdocs.com> <023a01c1899e$89118770$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <006401c189d9$be35f400$1400a8c0@blah.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:18:19 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gilbert writes: > Linux has much better java support, which > is actually a "killer app" for many companies. Somehow, it seems eerily logical that a company enamored of Java would also spring for Linux. They were probably made for each other. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 22:43: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.af-inet.net (cx793560-b.dt1.sdca.home.com [24.13.5.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E108737B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jaron@localhost) by mail.af-inet.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBL6TeG92040; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:29:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:29:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jaron Omega To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Warren Smith , Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? In-Reply-To: <023a01c1899e$89118770$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Right now I'd tend to recommend Windows servers for, say, a small law firm, >but FreeBSD for any kind of e-business. I would not recommend Linux for >anything except as a pacifier for adolescent males. Funny you should mention "small law firm". I think any of us that sits and thinks about the opportunities, will find it humourous to encumber those snakes with expensive licensing fee's. The thought of possibly bumping a lawyer out of a M3 and into a 318i would be all the more reason to claim some outrageous Windows setup is the best solution. Jaron Omega To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 23:30:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745E837B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18184 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2001 07:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Dec 2001 07:30:06 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <033001c189d0$4e0703d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:29:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Cc: Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Jeremiah Gowdy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 21-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Thanks for the references; I've added the books to my wish list, and I'll > look at the code. > > One thing I wonder: If performance is so important that a few hundred clock > cycles matter, why is the code written in C? Because the asm the code generates is only few instructions longer (about 10 cycles or so on x86) with the benefit of working on several architectures with only needing each arch to implement 4 atomic operations (IIRC): atomic_cmpset_acq_ptr(), atomic_store_rel_ptr(), atomic_clear_ptr(), and atomic_set_ptr(). It makes the code much more maintainable. Especially considering that 5.0 so far has added SMP support on the Alpha platform, and new ports for sparc64 and ia64 (and possibly x86-64 and ppc by the time 5.0 is released). Making spin mutexes only perform critcal section enter/exits (i.e. disable preemption adn interrupts and then enable them again) is a simple change in some C code that is all of about 10 or so changed lines and affects all spin mutexes in the system. IOW, it's a very simple way to gain some extra performance on UP systems. It doesn't complicate the code very much at all. If desired, the system is setup so that the mutex operations can be written completely in assembler. However, gcc is intelligent enough and has decent enough inline assembly support that the C code it generates is very efficient for this task, all things considered. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 20 23:34:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6224137B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBL7YiR41781; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:34:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000401c189f1$f6c7afd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jaron Omega" Cc: "Warren Smith" , References: Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:34:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jaron writes: > Funny you should mention "small law firm". I think > any of us that sits and thinks about the opportunities, > will find it humourous to encumber those snakes with > expensive licensing fee's. I don't make my recommendations based on emotion. > The thought of possibly bumping a lawyer out of > a M3 and into a 318i would be all the more reason > to claim some outrageous Windows setup is the > best solution. It seems like a poor and irrelevant reason to recommend any type of OS to me. I'd recommend Windows because it is easy to set up and does not require a high level of IT sophistication or highly-qualified administrators to tend it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 13: 1:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FEE37B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1cust35.tnt1.ogden.ut.da.uu.net ([63.39.40.35] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16HWmi-0003ys-00; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:00:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C23A303.5E2F0306@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:00:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Anthony Atkielski , "Andrew C. Hornback" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > What the hell is this, if you don't support The Cause 100%, you're one of > the enemy ? This makes me sick. Do you have to hate Microsoft and agree > with everything they're accused of in order to support FreeBSD ? What the > hell are we now, linux-advocacy ? FreeBSD stands on it's own merits, not by > detracting from others. Obviously, like Anthony, you appear to be incapable of reading mailer headers, or you'd realize I use a Windows machine for most of my email. > Everyone can have their own opinions about where Microsoft succeeds and > where FreeBSD succeeds. And as for the person who asked if this was > Microsoft-advocacy, what exactly are you thinking ? That there can be a > discussion of FreeBSD advocacy without talking about the alternatives ? > Rather than making any points about anything, it just seems like people are > characterizing other people and attacking them for any affections they might > have for Microsoft. Let me say this again: Not that Anthony hasn't actually said anything nice about FreeBSD; he's only noted that "it is a server OS", with no level of qualification as to value. > If you can't accept that both operating systems have their own > merits, or you think that FreeBSD is the end-all solution to everything, you > don't make a good advocate for FreeBSD and should unsubscribe from the list. Actually, the best advocates of FreeBSD are those that can solve any problem using it. It's a tool, and the best advocate of any tool is someone who is competent enough in its use to be able to solve nearly any problem. 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 13: 5: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E239937B419; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1cust35.tnt1.ogden.ut.da.uu.net ([63.39.40.35] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16HWqh-0001F0-00; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:04:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3C23A3FB.92F91973@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:04:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: John Baldwin , Dominick LaTrappe , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread References: <3C2068C9.BF7F7E7D@mindspring.com> <006501c188b5$63f010e0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > Agreed, this is freebsd-advocacy, not Terry vs. Anthony. > > > > FWIW, I agree, and will not respond to the Microsoft troll any > > more in -advocacy. > > Would that make you the FreeBSD troll, since you obviously initiated this > mini-flame war ? If I was a FreeBSD advocate spending all my free time on Microsoft specific lists, talking about how Microsoft should stay out of particular market segments, that it was no good in those segments, and it should never even be attempted to improve it in those segments, then yes, that would make me a troll. And if you think I initiated this flame war, you need to go read the -chat and -advocacy archives, since this was _clearly_ started by Anthony talking about BSD OSs being no good for the desktop. I can quote you the whole thread, if you want. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 13:22:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1294237B416 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11013 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2001 21:22:45 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 2001 21:22:45 -0000 Message-ID: <001201c18a65$b7b05080$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <3C23A303.5E2F0306@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:22:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > If you can't accept that both operating systems have their own > > merits, or you think that FreeBSD is the end-all solution to everything, you > > don't make a good advocate for FreeBSD and should unsubscribe from the list. > > Actually, the best advocates of FreeBSD are those that can solve > any problem using it. It's a tool, and the best advocate of any > tool is someone who is competent enough in its use to be able to > solve nearly any problem. 8^). Perhaps. It's simply a choice of which tool is best for which job. Perhaps I'm biased because I make a fine bit of money to pay for college by selling hybrid FreeBSD/Windows networks. FreeBSD and Samba put food on the table and pay for units. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 13:24: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A9CEE37B507 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11065 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2001 21:23:54 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 21 Dec 2001 21:23:54 -0000 Message-ID: <001301c18a65$e0bb5d30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "John Baldwin" , "Dominick LaTrappe" , References: <3C2068C9.BF7F7E7D@mindspring.com> <006501c188b5$63f010e0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <3C23A3FB.92F91973@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:24:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Would that make you the FreeBSD troll, since you obviously initiated this > > mini-flame war ? > > I can quote you the whole thread, if you want. Obviously I don't know enough about this thread to comment on it, so I'll simply say Merry Christmas. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 13:33:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC23037B41B for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1cust201.tnt1.ogden.ut.da.uu.net ([63.39.40.201] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16HXHo-0003bb-00; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:33:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3C23AA8B.B88C06F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:32:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: <002701c188e7$295a6f20$6600000a@ach.domain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Andrew C. Hornback" wrote: > This mailing list is called freebsd-advocacy. That has nothing to do with > Microsoft, therefore Microsoft discussion and traffic should be considered > off topic. Or am I incorrect in making that assumption? Nope, you are exactly right. There was a legitimate argument when advocacy of an OS other than FreeBSD for the desktop was constrained to -chat (it fell within the charter of the list, unfortunately). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 14:33:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E0437B417; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1cust201.tnt1.ogden.ut.da.uu.net ([63.39.40.201] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16HYEA-0005Yl-00; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:33:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C23B8AD.36A27373@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:33:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Gilbert Gong , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: [ ... ] Quit feeding the Microsoft Troll. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 14:37:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5860137B405; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1cust201.tnt1.ogden.ut.da.uu.net ([63.39.40.201] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16HYI8-0002RD-00; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:37:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C23B9A4.9FB1D941@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:37:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Anthony Atkielski , advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > Nevermind, if you don't grok logic, that's ok, I'll just give up. Stop feeding the troll. He has apparently had an "into to logic" course at a community college, and so is qualified to debate on any topic. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 14:46:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4558F37B41F for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBLMjtR43813; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 23:45:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002e01c18a71$40a8daf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <003701c18819$a9941a20$6600000a@ach.domain> <3C1FF8DA.2DBC501C@mindspring.com> <013b01c18844$b2ff8b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C202951.D39F0144@mindspring.com> <005201c188b4$9bd4cd30$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> <3C23A303.5E2F0306@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 23:45:53 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > Actually, the best advocates of FreeBSD are > those that can solve any problem using it. > It's a tool, and the best advocate of any > tool is someone who is competent enough in > its use to be able to solve nearly any problem. So someone who paints and drills holes with the same hammer he uses to drive nails is doing a better job than someone who uses brushes to paint, drills for making holes, and hammers for driving nails only? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 21: 0:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtbaker.tfm.com (mtbaker.tfm.com [192.231.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D95737B405; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from db@localhost) by mtbaker.tfm.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fBM4xxs14143; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:59:59 -0800 (PST) From: Diane Bruce Message-Id: <200112220459.fBM4xxs14143@mtbaker.tfm.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? In-Reply-To: <3C23B9A4.9FB1D941@mindspring.com> "from Terry Lambert at Dec 21, 2001 02:37:24 pm" To: Terry Lambert Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:59:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: John Baldwin , Anthony Atkielski , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Gilbert Gong , Jeremiah Gowdy X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL78 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert says: > John Baldwin wrote: > > Nevermind, if you don't grok logic, that's ok, I'll just give up. > > Stop feeding the troll. He has apparently had an "into to logic" > course at a community college, and so is qualified to debate on > any topic. I stopped reading the troll ages ago, he's using a non standard char set. > -- Terry -- Diane Bruce, http://www.db.net/~db db@db.net --- I got bored with the last witty aphorism. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 21: 2:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C05737B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.215.50]) by mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011222050219.RFCC15547.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@columbia>; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 05:02:19 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "FreeBSD Advocacy" Subject: RE: Microsoft sues Lindows Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:02:09 -0500 Message-ID: <002701c18aa5$cf5b7940$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <033601c189d0$b591f910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:37 PM > To: FreeBSD Advocacy; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Microsoft sues Lindows > > Microsoft is suing Lindows, Inc., claiming that the latter's name > conflicts > with the former's Windows trademark: > > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8246647.html?tag=mn_hd > > Not really anything specific to FreeBSD, but since it is UNIX it seemed > interesting anyway. If this has nothing to do with FreeBSD, wouldn't it be considered off-topic and therefore shouldn't be sent to the advocacy list? Is thinking before you post so much to ask? Also, I notice it was cross-posted to another list. That's another no-no. --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 21: 7:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA67E37B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.215.50]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011222050735.PYOG13117.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@columbia> for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 05:07:35 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: Subject: Java development platform comparison (was: RE: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:07:25 -0500 Message-ID: <002801c18aa6$8bcc22a0$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <035501c189de$e7f458e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 12:18 AM > To: Gilbert Gong; Warren Smith; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Microsoft Advocacy? > > Gilbert writes: > > > Linux has much better java support, which > > is actually a "killer app" for many companies. > > Somehow, it seems eerily logical that a company enamored of Java > would also > spring for Linux. They were probably made for each other. If they wanted to do it right, as many would say, they'd have gone with Solaris. Which leads me to ask, what are the differences in developing Java on a FreeBSD platform and that of other platforms (Linux and Solaris, exclude Microsoft from this discussion)? (And yes, I'm fully aware that Microsoft no longer produces a Java product as they had their ass sued off by Sun and had to sell their botched J++ product to Rational Software). Why is Linux a better platform for Java development than FreeBSD? --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 21:56:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phalse.2600.com (phalse.2600.COM [216.66.24.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD9037B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by phalse.2600.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00960; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:56:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:56:31 -0500 (EST) From: Dominick LaTrappe To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Microsoft _still_ makes for a boring thread In-Reply-To: <3C23A3FB.92F91973@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > Would that make you the FreeBSD troll, since you obviously initiated this > > mini-flame war ? > If I was a FreeBSD advocate spending all my free time on Microsoft Maybe you didn't understand me the first time. The next person to post a reply to one of these idiotic Microsoft threads will find a car battery on the other end of their ethernet run, seperated from their NIC only by a very, very large capacitor with a "Designed for Microsoft Windows" sticker on it. This isn't, like, a threat or anything. Love, Dominick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 22:57:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCD4737B425 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12364 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2001 06:57:31 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 22 Dec 2001 06:57:31 -0000 Message-ID: <000f01c18ab6$0398a1a0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <002801c18aa6$8bcc22a0$6600000a@ach.domain> Subject: Re: Java development platform comparison (was: RE: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:57:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Which leads me to ask, what are the differences in developing Java on a > FreeBSD platform and that of other platforms There is a difference. It's called the-support-of-Sun-Microsystems. The way Sun only supports selected platforms, picks and chooses who they decide to work with, and fails to open certain source for the benefit of their own language they're pushing as a standard, I have no more love for Sun than Microsoft. I'm sure if Microsoft were to be put out of business, the next day Sun Microsystems would easily rise into their position. I see no more reason to move to Sun's Java than to Microsoft's C#. At least there are rumors of Microsoft hiring FreeBSD developers to produce a C# engine for FreeBSD. When I see a JDK 1.4.x native and supported by Sun under FreeBSD, then maybe I'll care about their language. I took the class in college, it was good, easy units. However, it just reminds me a little too much of MFC . I don't want OOP to be the beast that swallows the world. It has it's place, and the concepts are immortal, but sometimes you take a good concept and push it a little too far. > (Linux and Solaris, exclude > Microsoft from this discussion)? (And yes, I'm fully aware that Microsoft > no longer produces a Java product as they had their ass sued off by Sun and > had to sell their botched J++ product to Rational Software). Sun makes a perfectly good VM and JDK for Windows :) I run it on my Windows XP boxes which don't include the Microsoft VM by default. > Why is Linux a better platform for Java development than FreeBSD? Have you tried developing Java under FreeBSD ? I have. Kudos to those who are involved in the porting process, but only the Linux JDK with emulation worked for my needs, and it too had problems. Even if you read the Java for FreeBSD page, you can see that they're not entirely confident and not promising anything but their best effort. I was eventually forced to move my Java programming to Sun's Win32 JDK. You don't need J++ or any other Java IDE, Sun's JDK works excellently on the platforms they support. Why the hell they can't port the JDK to FreeBSD, when the whole idea is supposed to be Multi-Platform, I do not know. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 21 23:34:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142F737B416 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 23:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.215.50]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011222073429.EICC13869.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@columbia>; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 07:34:29 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , Subject: RE: Java development platform comparison (was: RE: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:34:18 -0500 Message-ID: <002901c18abb$10705800$6600000a@ach.domain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <000f01c18ab6$0398a1a0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jeremiah Gowdy > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:58 AM > To: Andrew C. Hornback; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Java development platform comparison (was: RE: Microsoft > Advocacy?) > > > Which leads me to ask, what are the differences in developing Java on a > > FreeBSD platform and that of other platforms > > There is a difference. It's called the-support-of-Sun-Microsystems. The > way Sun only supports selected platforms, picks and chooses who > they decide > to work with, and fails to open certain source for the benefit of > their own > language they're pushing as a standard, I have no more love for Sun than > Microsoft. I think this is part of Sun's trying to hang onto IBM's coat tails with the whole Linux push. They want their brand (Java) right up there beside something from IBM (Linux). > I'm sure if Microsoft were to be put out of business, the next > day Sun Microsystems would easily rise into their position. I see no more > reason to move to Sun's Java than to Microsoft's C#. At least there are > rumors of Microsoft hiring FreeBSD developers to produce a C# engine for > FreeBSD. One would wonder if Microsoft has contacted any of the core team about this... *shakes his heaD* > When I see a JDK 1.4.x native and supported by Sun > under FreeBSD, > then maybe I'll care about their language. Maybe I should talk to some folks... I've got a few contacts inside of Sun that might be able to give me an answer why there isn't one already (I'd thought that there was...) > I took the class in > college, it > was good, easy units. However, it just reminds me a little too > much of MFC > . I don't want OOP to be the beast that swallows the world. It has > it's place, and the concepts are immortal, but sometimes you take a good > concept and push it a little too far. I hear that... > > (Linux and Solaris, exclude > > Microsoft from this discussion)? (And yes, I'm fully aware > that Microsoft > > no longer produces a Java product as they had their ass sued off by Sun > and > > had to sell their botched J++ product to Rational Software). > > Sun makes a perfectly good VM and JDK for Windows :) I run it on > my Windows > XP boxes which don't include the Microsoft VM by default. I won't even go into my tirade against XP... (I'll offer the notes from my speech if anyone's interested). Although, I do realize that since it's the latest "business oriented" operating system that developing for it is required (a necessary evil, if you ask me...) > > Why is Linux a better platform for Java development than FreeBSD? > > Have you tried developing Java under FreeBSD ? Can't say that I have... up to this point I've mainly been a BASIC/Fortran guy with some background in Pascal, C and a few Siemens hardware specific languages. > I have. Kudos to those who > are involved in the porting process, but only the Linux JDK with emulation > worked for my needs, and it too had problems. Even if you read > the Java for > FreeBSD page, you can see that they're not entirely confident and not > promising anything but their best effort. I was eventually forced to move > my Java programming to Sun's Win32 JDK. You don't need J++ or any other > Java IDE, Sun's JDK works excellently on the platforms they support. Why > the hell they can't port the JDK to FreeBSD, when the whole idea > is supposed > to be Multi-Platform, I do not know. Maybe I can find out something with regards to that question... --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 22 0:17:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ECB37B405 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBM8HlR47636; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:17:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000801c18ac1$24b0c3d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "FreeBSD Advocacy" References: <002701c18aa5$cf5b7940$6600000a@ach.domain> Subject: Re: Microsoft sues Lindows Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:17:47 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew writes: > If this has nothing to do with FreeBSD ... That's not what I said. I said it isn't _specific_ to FreeBSD. However, FreeBSD is a flavor of UNIX, just like Linux. Conceivably Lindows could be ported to multiple UNIX platforms. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 22 8:56:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 711FA37B417 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15856 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2001 16:56:09 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 22 Dec 2001 16:56:09 -0000 Message-ID: <003101c18b09$a68587e0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <002801c18aa6$8bcc22a0$6600000a@ach.domain> <000f01c18ab6$0398a1a0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Subject: Re: Java development platform comparison (was: RE: Microsoft Advocacy?) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:55:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Have you tried developing Java under FreeBSD ? I have. Kudos to those who > are involved in the porting process, but only the Linux JDK with emulation > worked for my needs, and it too had problems. Even if you read the Java for > FreeBSD page, you can see that they're not entirely confident and not > promising anything but their best effort. I was eventually forced to move > my Java programming to Sun's Win32 JDK. You don't need J++ or any other > Java IDE, Sun's JDK works excellently on the platforms they support. Why > the hell they can't port the JDK to FreeBSD, when the whole idea is supposed > to be Multi-Platform, I do not know. announce@freebsd.org said: >The FreeBSD Foundation is pleased to announce that it has secured a >license from Sun Microsystems to distribute a native FreeBSD version of >both the Java Development Kit (JDK) and the Java Runtime Environment (JRE). >Thanks to the great efforts of the FreeBSD Java team, these should be >available for inclusion with the upcoming release of FreeBSD 4.5 in >January, 2002. Wow, excellent response time. :) Of course the minute I say anything I get my damn foot stuck in my mouth. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message