From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 17:11:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pine.senet.com.au (pine.senet.com.au [203.34.34.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8D537B43E for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from valex@senet.com.au) Received: from localhost (valex@localhost) by pine.senet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3U0Fag02447 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:45:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from valex@senet.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: pine.senet.com.au: valex owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:45:36 +0930 (CST) From: Alex Wilkinson Reply-To: Alex.Wilkinson@senet.com.au To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: pronunciation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Could anyone refer to a paper that specifies correct UNIX pronunciation. eg. The correct pronunciation of /etc /usr tyy ptty.....and so on. Cheers -aw To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 17:22:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C4837B43F for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 25F796ACBA; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:52:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:52:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Alex.Wilkinson@senet.com.au Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pronunciation Message-ID: <20010430095209.C75345@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from valex@senet.com.au on Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 09:45:36AM +0930 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 30 April 2001 at 9:45:36 +0930, Alex Wilkinson wrote: > > Hi all, > > Could anyone refer to a paper that specifies correct UNIX pronunciation. > eg. The correct pronunciation of /etc /usr tyy ptty.....and so on. *sigh* /me waits for the thread from hell to develop. Here are mine: /etc ETSI or etcetera, depending on how I'm feeling. /usr User tyy ptty Don't know these ones. If you mean tty and pty, tty Titty pty Pity Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 17:26:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AB537B423 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3U0QWQ41956 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:26:33 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:26:32 +1200 (NZST) From: Dan Langille X-Sender: dan@lists.unixathome.org To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20010430095209.C75345@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 30 April 2001 at 9:45:36 +0930, Alex Wilkinson wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Could anyone refer to a paper that specifies correct UNIX pronunciation. > > eg. The correct pronunciation of /etc /usr tyy ptty.....and so on. > > *sigh* > > /me waits for the thread from hell to develop. /me unsubscribes before it's too late. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 17:36:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dalek.xMach.org (dalek.xMach.org [209.42.222.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABCE37B42C for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@xMach.org) Received: from localhost (jmallett@localhost) by dalek.xMach.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3U0a6l04086; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:36:07 GMT (envelope-from jmallett@xMach.org) X-Authentication-Warning: dalek.xMach.org: jmallett owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:36:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Dan Langille Cc: Subject: Re: pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Monday, 30 April 2001 at 9:45:36 +0930, Alex Wilkinson wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Could anyone refer to a paper that specifies correct UNIX pronunciation. > > > eg. The correct pronunciation of /etc /usr tyy ptty.....and so on. > > > > *sigh* > > > > /me waits for the thread from hell to develop. > > /me unsubscribes before it's too late. It already is... Greg said Titty. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- +--------------------------------------+ | Joseph Mallett | | xMach Core Team | +--------------------------------------+ | xMach: Proactively Unbloated | | Microkernel BSD | | IRC: irc.openprojects.net/#xMach | | Web: www.xMach.org | +--------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 19: 4:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pine.senet.com.au (pine.senet.com.au [203.34.34.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC8537B423 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:04:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from valex@senet.com.au) Received: from localhost (valex@localhost) by pine.senet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3U28xu04207; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:38:59 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from valex@senet.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: pine.senet.com.au: valex owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:38:59 +0930 (CST) From: Alex Wilkinson Reply-To: Alex.Wilkinson@senet.com.au To: Greg Lehey Cc: Alex.Wilkinson@senet.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20010430095209.C75345@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone bothered to write a paper on this topic ? -aw On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 30 April 2001 at 9:45:36 +0930, Alex Wilkinson wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Could anyone refer to a paper that specifies correct UNIX pronunciation. > > eg. The correct pronunciation of /etc /usr tyy ptty.....and so on. > > *sigh* > > /me waits for the thread from hell to develop. > > Here are mine: > > /etc ETSI or etcetera, depending on how I'm feeling. > /usr User > > tyy ptty Don't know these ones. If you mean tty and pty, > > tty Titty > pty Pity > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 19:19:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A4A37B43E for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3U2Jmu01499; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:19:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:19:48 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Alex.Wilkinson@senet.com.au Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pronunciation Message-ID: <20010430121948.A1475@welearn.com.au> References: <20010430095209.C75345@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from valex@senet.com.au on Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 11:38:59AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 11:38:59AM +0930, Alex Wilkinson wrote: > > Has anyone bothered to write a paper on this topic ? Of course, in 1997. You should have checked the FreeBSD Newbies page before asking _that_ question :-) Near the bottom it gives: http://manuel.brad.ac.uk/help/.faq/.unix/.pronun.html (The URL looks a bit funny but it's right) Perhaps we could do with something newer, though. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 29 20:28:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A19DE37B42C for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 7444 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 02:24:14 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Apr 2001 02:24:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 16409 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 03:27:57 -0000 Received: from du68.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.68]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Apr 2001 03:27:57 -0000 Message-ID: <3AEA20D3.146909BA@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:45:55 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zepeda Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's the interest in comercial desktop apps for FreeBSD? References: <20010426171918.D1977@zippy.mybox.zip> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alex Zepeda wrote: > > I'm not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but here I > go anyways. > > I've been wrestling with GNUCash in an effort to help the developers get > the cvs versions (1.5.x) working on FreeBSD. But being a KDE fan, I've > noticed an absence of free Qt/KDE offerings. Kapital looks interesting, > and I'm sure it'd run under Linux emulation.. but I'm perhaps in a > position to convince them to offer a FreeBSD binary. If they spent some > time "porting" Kapital (or perhaps one of their other offerings) to > FreeBSD, would anybody be interested in buying a copy? This is the reponse I got when I asked about Kapital on FreeBSD: > At 07:32 PM 2/19/2001, you wrote: > >Will Kapital run under FreeBSD's Linux binary compatibility? Thank you. > > I have absolutely no idea, none of us have FreeBSD. When we release the > demo in a couple of weeks you can give it a try and let us know, I'm sure > other people would be interested to know. Before you ask, I don't know if > we will try to support FreeBSD, just supporting all the various Linux > distributions is a major undertaking :) > > Regards, > > Shawn Gordon > President > theKompany.com > www.thekompany.com > 949-713-3276 I have not tried the demo, because I am still on Qt 1.x, and it needs 2.x, or so it says. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 30 8:36:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sttlpop4.sttl.uswest.net (sttlpop4.sttl.uswest.net [206.81.192.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3119737B440 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:36:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kmills@a6l.net) Received: (qmail 556 invoked by alias); 30 Apr 2001 15:36:05 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 505 invoked by uid 0); 30 Apr 2001 15:36:04 -0000 Received: from www.a6l.net (HELO a6l.net) (63.229.13.49) by sttlpop4.sttl.uswest.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 15:36:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 14936 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Apr 2001 15:36:04 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: USB webcams? From: Kevin Mills Date: 30 Apr 2001 08:36:04 -0700 Message-ID: <85zocytn6j.fsf@diablo.in.a6l.net> Lines: 4 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are there any USB webcams that are supported under FreeBSD? Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 30 17:21:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BEB37B422 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:21:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f410Lhq10708 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:21:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:21:43 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For lack of any where better to ask, I'll try chat. Does any one know of a working port of a BSD libc for a modern Linux (RedHat 6.x, SuSE 6.y, etc.) I ask because I've got some scientific code that's more or less pure ANSI C that works just fine producing the same or nearly the same results on FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, and even Alpha Linux, but on i386 Linux it produces wildly different (though consistant) results. I'm hoping for an easy to way to figure out it it's the kernel or glibc. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE67gGQXY6L6fI4GtQRAquuAJ9964/IIrV61Ow0qgx/K/2RnyqhDACfRgsB h5wYaEvjFS5KF8glA0wBF+o= =Lbca -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 30 17:39:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC2337B424 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@pepcross.demon.co.uk) Received: from pepcross.demon.co.uk ([194.222.151.254]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14uOCF-000Kq3-0A for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 00:39:20 +0000 Received: (from steve@localhost) by pepcross.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f410Vc400657 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 01:31:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from steve) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 01:31:38 +0100 From: Steve Roome To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ppp and modems Message-ID: <20010501013137.A219@pepcross.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello folks, thought of two things recently, and I thought I'd throw them into this nice open forum... 1) Might be worth changing the default /etc/ppp/ppp.conf to have an ATW2 in it, might work for a lot of people and it would save those folks who say... why does my modem connect at 115200 =) (try ATW2) 2) I'm upgrading to a cable modem this week, and I'll no longer need to use ppp. Thankfully this means I may never have to configure a modem again. Thank God. However, looking at my ppp config file; which I was about to throw away, I've realised that I spent an exceedingly long time getting everything just perfect (for me). I've had a sucession of rockwell modems, and the configs are all (mostly) rockwell specific. If ATI1 .. ATI6 shows rockwell then this might be of help to you. Alternatively it might be a confusing pile of horse manure. Obviously it all depends on what make of modem you have, but for a newish Rockwell, it might work, after messing with it for some time, I eventually got my modem to connect a bit more reliably than before, and usually at a higher speed. YMMV as they say. (Besides my phone wiring is junk, so perhaps you'll get better than my meagre 48k average connects - at least you can tune what you want to your modem to drop or accept.) Anyway, please don't flame me if this isn't useful for you. I reckon it probably is, to someone! But not sure who, so it's gone to -chat. (which I'm not subscribed to because I don't have the bandwidth... until, assuming my telco get it right, Thursday!) Good luck, and sorry if this is just spam, Steve Roome P.S. Let me know if you found this useful, or if you have any questions, e.g. why post this crap here ? =) Perhaps someone is working on writing a "how-to" modem config guide somewhere, that is a little more up to date than all the 28.8 stuff I found when researching this.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Currently my modem is a Rockwell 560DTV. (you can download the manuals for these and other rockwell chipsets from their website, but they are such a pain to read, I know, this is the third modem I've done this for!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ default: set log Phase Chat LCP IPCP CCP tun command allow users steve # I like to be able to use ppp myself, without root access set device /dev/cuaa0 # Because, that's where the modem is. set speed 115200 # Faster than the modem speed, importantly it needs to be set redial 0 # don't give up, just keep dialling. set dial "ABORT BUSY ABORT NO\\sCARRIER TIMEOUT 5 \"\" AT \ OK-AT-OK AT&FE0V1S0=0&C1&D2+MR=2;+DR=1;+ER=1 OK \ ATS7=60S30=0L3M1+ES=3,2,4;+DS=3; OK ATW2+IFC=2,2;BX4 OK \ \\dATDT\\T TIMEOUT 30 CONNECT" #Modems are real easy to configure, we'll come onto this later. # Some of that got ripped out of the windows .inf I had, which is a # "good" or do I mean very bad (!) way to find a useable modem init # string. So it's not all documented further down. Although some is. set server /var/tmp/ppp.sock "" 0117 # allow pppctl, but only through a local socket accessible by # user and group (in this case root/wheel only, i.e. all the users # I allow to su to root. Also, I don't like the pppctl through a tcp # port, because I'm paranoid.) ### What the init strings mean... ### 1) the two commands AT&F and ATE0 can be combined AT&FE0 ### or at above. AT&FE0V1S0=0&C1&D2+MR=2 ### which means : # &F - restore factory defaults # &E0 - echo stuff back to user # V1 - oh, I've forgotten that one. it's an obvious one too. ?! # S0=0 - set register 0 to 0 (read modem specific docs!) # (could be nasty, well, could be...) # &C1 - RLSD follows state of carrier # &D2 - #&D2 # DTR drop is interpreted according to the current &Q setting as follows: # &Q0 through &Q6 # DTR drop causes the modem to hang up. Auto-answer is inhibited. # From trying to get an old ISA modem to understand that it had hungup. #+??=?; - Modem specific initializers, which I didn't document! =( # Other stuff. # AT%U1 puts some dual (v90/k56) modems into K56 mode. (some it just crashes) #atf0 = set highest possible connect speed #atm1l3 = speaker on and LOUD during connect but off otherwise ###*** USEFUL ***### #wN - where N= reports what on connect # 0 report DTE speed # 1 report DTE speed, error correction protocol # 2 DCE speed # N.B. You probably want your modem to report the DCE Speed. Trust me # here. I'm fed up of people who get 115200kbs through their modem # hmmm. sure they do. #Y0 = disable long space disconnect (should be default!) # This is really useful, it crashes the modems I've had, particularly # the broken ISA one which never disconnected properly.. With this, it # doesn't connect properly either, but it may work for you. #&C1 = # Er, What ? #&F = restore factory settings! # Very handy. #&KN = where N : # 0 - no flow control # 3 - rts/cts # 4 - xon/xoff # You probably want rts/cts, but ppp will sort that for you with set rtscts # apparently. #*H0 = negotiate link at highest supported speed # This is supposed to work, but it didn't improve my modem. #&NC16 = set modem up for United Kingdom # The country codes are : # Country Code (n) # Australia 40 # Austria 1 # Belgium 2 # Bulgaria 27 # Canada 20 # China 41 # Czech Republic 19 # Denmark 3 # Finland 4 # France 5 # Germany 6 # Greece 17 # Hong Kong 42 # Hungary 23 # India 30 # Ireland 7 # Israel 18 # Italy 8 # Japan 43 # Korea 44 # Luxembourg 9 # Mexico 21 # Netherlands 10 # New Zealand 48 # Norway 11 # Philippines 43 # Poland 24 # Portugal 12 # Russia 25 # Singapore 47 # Slovac Republic 26 # Spain 13 # Sweden 14 # Switzerland 15 # Taiwan 46 # United Kingdom 16 # United States 22 #\S = report active configuration # Erm, might be useful, I can't remember what my modem had to say about # that. #S11=x = x<-50-255 milliseconds and is time for each dtmf dial pulse # I've found my telco will accept 50ms pulses okay, which shaves a # bit of time off the connect time.. #s95=x - x is bitfield representing : # Bit 0 CONNECT result code indicates DCE speed # instead of DTE speed. ## (See also W2, somewhere above.) # Bit 1 Append/ARQ to CONNECT XXXX result code in # error-correction mode (XXXX = rate; see Table 3-1). # Bit 2 Enable CARRIER XXXX result code (XXXX = rate; # see Table 3-1). # Bit 3 Enable PROTOCOL XXXX result code (XXXX = protocol # identifier; see Table 3-1). # Bit 4 Reserved. # Bit 5 Enable COMPRESSION result code (XXXX = compression # type; see Table 3-1). # Bit 6 Reserved. # Bit 7 Reserved. # so 45 is bits : 0,2,3,5 (try 47 to get bit 1 as well for ARQ) What ppp.log has in it.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat: Send: AT^M Chat: Expect(5): OK Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: OK^M Chat: Send: AT&FE0V1S0=0&C1&D2+MR=2;+DR=1;+ER=1^M Chat: Expect(5): OK Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: OK^M Chat: Send: ATS7=60S30=0L3M1+ES=3,2,4;+DS=3;^M Chat: Expect(5): OK Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: OK^M Chat: Send: AT+IFC=2,2;BX4^M Chat: Expect(5): OK Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: OK^M Chat: Send: ATDT08440416662^M Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: status Chat: Expect(30): CONNECT Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: ls Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: ls -l Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: ? Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: show Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: show ? Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: show status Command: /var/tmp/ppp.sock: show bundle Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: +MCR: V90^M Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: +MRR: 46667^M Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: +ER: LAPM^M Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: +DR: V42B^M Chat: Received: ^M Chat: Received: CONNECT 46667^M ### N.B. without W2, it will say CONNECT 115200. here's some other dial strings I've had, with one of the four modems I use at home.. ## This is all extra information, init strings etc.. # OK-AT-OK AT&FE1&C1&D2S95=47S11=50S0=0&K3+MS=12,1,38000,42000 OK \ # set dial "ABORT BUSY ABORT NO\\sCARRIER TIMEOUT 5 \"\" AT \ # OK-AT-OK AT&F&NC16E1M1L3&C1&D2S95=45S11=50S0=0W2+MS=12,1 OK \\dATDT\\T TIMEOUT 30 CONNECT" # set dial "ABORT BUSY ABORT NO\\sCARRIER TIMEOUT 10 \"\" AT \ # OK-AT-OK AT&FE0V1&C1&D2S95=45 OK ATS0=0 OK AT\\\\N3%C3&K3X4 OK \ # AT+MS=12,1,38000,50000 OK \\dATDT\\T TIMEOUT 30 CONNECT" # set dial "ABORT BUSY ABORT NO\\sCARRIER TIMEOUT 5 \"\" AT \ # OK-AT-OK at&fw1v1 OK \\dATDT\\T TIMEOUT 30 CONNECT" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 3:30:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B0537B423 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 03:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA78720 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 03:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f41AWAV00460 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 03:32:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 03:26:10 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:21 PM -0700 4/30/01, Brooks Davis wrote: >For lack of any where better to ask, I'll try chat. Does any one know >of a working port of a BSD libc for a modern Linux (RedHat 6.x, SuSE 6.y, >etc.) I ask because I've got some scientific code that's more or less >pure ANSI C that works just fine producing the same or nearly the same >results on FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, and even Alpha Linux, but on i386 >Linux it produces wildly different (though consistant) results. I'm >hoping for an easy to way to figure out it it's the kernel or glibc. I'm not sure that's the best debugging strategy. For one thing, the culprit might be neither one of these. And, even if you find out which library (or other system component) the problem lies in, you will still be far from having a useful bug report. So, I would suggest a different strategy. Using a series of carefully- instrumented runs, find out where the program is going astray. Then, attempt to create a subset of the program which replicates the problem. Rinse, repeat until you get down to a specific system call or function. Here are some possibly useful techniques: Compare the output streams of the running and bogus systems, looking for the first instance of an error. For finer granularity, add trace messages of values that might be relevant to the problem. To test hypotheses (and keep the output stream manageable), insert conditional trace statements that track specific values. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 9:38:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx7.airmail.net (mxall.airmail.net [209.196.77.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E228037B423 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason@smethers.net) Received: from mail2.iadfw.net ([206.66.12.234]) by mx7.airmail.net with smtp (Exim 3.16 #10) id 14udEH-00014U-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:42:25 -0500 Received: from jason from [64.31.204.8] by mail2.iadfw.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.50) with smtp for sender: id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:38:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason Smethers" To: References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:37:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 5:21 PM -0700 4/30/01, Brooks Davis wrote: > >For lack of any where better to ask, I'll try chat. Does any one know > >of a working port of a BSD libc for a modern Linux (RedHat 6.x, SuSE 6.y, > >etc.) I ask because I've got some scientific code that's more or less > >pure ANSI C that works just fine producing the same or nearly the same > >results on FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, and even Alpha Linux, but on i386 > >Linux it produces wildly different (though consistant) results. I'm > >hoping for an easy to way to figure out it it's the kernel or glibc. The statistical differences may be a result of your programs use of the rand() family. Linux's GNU libc decided not to implement these functions for backwards compatibility. Instead it aliases these functions to the random() family. You can find at least one discussion about this in the mail archives during a discussion of the random device some months back. - Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 10:43:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DD437B422 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A622066E8B; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:43:24 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jason Smethers Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010501104324.D7834@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net>; from jason@smethers.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 11:37:51AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 11:37:51AM -0500, Jason Smethers wrote: > > At 5:21 PM -0700 4/30/01, Brooks Davis wrote: > > >For lack of any where better to ask, I'll try chat. Does any one know > > >of a working port of a BSD libc for a modern Linux (RedHat 6.x, SuSE 6= .y, > > >etc.) I ask because I've got some scientific code that's more or less > > >pure ANSI C that works just fine producing the same or nearly the same > > >results on FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, and even Alpha Linux, but on i386 > > >Linux it produces wildly different (though consistant) results. I'm > > >hoping for an easy to way to figure out it it's the kernel or glibc. >=20 > The statistical differences may be a result of your programs use of the > rand() family. Linux's GNU libc decided not to implement these functions = for > backwards compatibility. Instead it aliases these functions to the random= () > family. =2E.which is a legitimate thing to do according to the standards. FreeBSD fixed its rand() in -current too; anyone using the old version for simulations is likely to be getting sorely skewed data out because the algorithm is so non-random. Kris --BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE67vW7Wry0BWjoQKURAugVAJ9j1gVVBaw0sRVDmKHnHVm6+8CJJwCeJR3u Eua20Nn3xU7BRhR5nAOF1N4= =NyON -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 10:46:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4105737B422 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f41HkgD27524; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:46:42 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:46:42 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Jason Smethers Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net>; from jason@smethers.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 11:37:51AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 11:37:51AM -0500, Jason Smethers wrote: > The statistical differences may be a result of your programs use of the > rand() family. Linux's GNU libc decided not to implement these functions = for > backwards compatibility. Instead it aliases these functions to the random= () > family. We don't use randomness anywhere in this code so that's not it. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD4DBQE67vaBXY6L6fI4GtQRAmqXAJ4hOhg6oGLR3tXvFJJrND/znZby3QCWIiO6 mhCyvlZ3Zrui/26/5Qw2mg== =AiTM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 11:19:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1166B37B422 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA15168; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:18:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA5EayKD; Tue May 1 11:18:13 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17496; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:20:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105011820.LAA17496@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? To: kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:20:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jason@smethers.net (Jason Smethers), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010501104324.D7834@xor.obsecurity.org> from "Kris Kennaway" at May 01, 2001 10:43:24 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The statistical differences may be a result of your programs > > use of the rand() family. Linux's GNU libc decided not to > > implement these functions for backwards compatibility. Instead > > it aliases these functions to the random() family. > > which is a legitimate thing to do according to the standards. > FreeBSD fixed its rand() in -current too; anyone using the old version > for simulations is likely to be getting sorely skewed data out because > the algorithm is so non-random. FreeBSD _broke_ its random number generator. I wish the non-scientists who keep claiming that it is legitimate to break this code, and who think that when you multiply two random numbers that the result is "even more random than before the multiply", and who think randomness is more important than pseudo randomness... would take a frigging 600 level college course in algorithms, and read: The Art Of Computer Programming Volume 2: Seminumerical Algorithms Donald Knuth Addison-Wesley In particular, they should read all of: Chapter 3 -- Random Numbers In particular, section 3.2.1.3 discusses /potentcy/, while section 3.2.2 discusses other methods. See also the "spectral test" in section 3.3.4 for the definition of "acceptably random". AFAIK, the "improved" FreeBSD code has not yet passed this test, which is currently the strongest test known. The purpose of rand() is to provide a sound mathematical basis from which real work can be accomplished, not to make it so some jackass can protect his password file with security through obscurity, without having to get off their duff and expend any effort. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 11:31:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FEA37B43C for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DA2A566B75; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:31:48 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kennaway , Jason Smethers , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010501113148.A9444@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010501104324.D7834@xor.obsecurity.org> <200105011820.LAA17496@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105011820.LAA17496@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 06:20:34PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 06:20:34PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The statistical differences may be a result of your programs > > > use of the rand() family. Linux's GNU libc decided not to > > > implement these functions for backwards compatibility. Instead > > > it aliases these functions to the random() family. > >=20 > > which is a legitimate thing to do according to the standards. > > FreeBSD fixed its rand() in -current too; anyone using the old version > > for simulations is likely to be getting sorely skewed data out because > > the algorithm is so non-random. >=20 > FreeBSD _broke_ its random number generator. >=20 > I wish the non-scientists who keep claiming that it is > legitimate to break this code, and who think that when you > multiply two random numbers that the result is "even more > random than before the multiply", and who think randomness > is more important than pseudo randomness... I'm a physicist by day. I can think of few things worse than having a lengthy simulation ruined by the poor statistical properties of the old rand() algorithm. > would take a frigging 600 level college course in algorithms, > and read: >=20 > The Art Of Computer Programming > Volume 2: Seminumerical Algorithms > Donald Knuth > Addison-Wesley >=20 > In particular, they should read all of: >=20 > Chapter 3 -- Random Numbers >=20 > In particular, section 3.2.1.3 discusses /potentcy/, while > section 3.2.2 discusses other methods. >=20 > See also the "spectral test" in section 3.3.4 for the definition > of "acceptably random". AFAIK, the "improved" FreeBSD code has > not yet passed this test, which is currently the strongest test > known. Last time this came up we established you had no idea about the actual algorithm in use by rand(), and you still haven't shown that you actually understand its properties and why they needed to be fixed. Tell me, please, Terry, have YOU run that spectral test on the old rand()? > The purpose of rand() is to provide a sound mathematical basis > from which real work can be accomplished, not to make it so some Right. *Now*, it does this. > jackass can protect his password file with security through > obscurity, without having to get off their duff and expend any > effort. And this of course requires completely different mathematical properties which is why rand() or random() is not used for seeding password hash functions. Kris --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE67wETWry0BWjoQKURAkg6AJ9HM7z2Bxmg9/aAMde+YOU0/Q2BMQCeMqAx Sjut0/4zOCnff5EcKKaeegA= =MC65 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 12:16:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5A437B423 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA27601; Tue, 1 May 2001 12:16:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA0NaW21; Tue May 1 12:16:27 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA05406; Tue, 1 May 2001 12:20:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105011920.MAA05406@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? To: kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:20:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway), jason@smethers.net (Jason Smethers), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010501113148.A9444@xor.obsecurity.org> from "Kris Kennaway" at May 01, 2001 11:31:48 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I wish the non-scientists who keep claiming that it is > > legitimate to break this code, and who think that when you > > multiply two random numbers that the result is "even more > > random than before the multiply", and who think randomness > > is more important than pseudo randomness... > > I'm a physicist by day. I can think of few things worse than having a > lengthy simulation ruined by the poor statistical properties of the > old rand() algorithm. Then use ?and48(); it's a linear congruential generator. It's all a matter of potency and periodicity. The most important thing for physics work, IMO, is repeatability. > > See also the "spectral test" in section 3.3.4 for the definition > > of "acceptably random". AFAIK, the "improved" FreeBSD code has > > not yet passed this test, which is currently the strongest test > > known. > > Last time this came up we established you had no idea about the actual > algorithm in use by rand(), and you still haven't shown that you > actually understand its properties and why they needed to be fixed. > > Tell me, please, Terry, have YOU run that spectral test on the old > rand()? Yes. Just like random(), it _fails_ the test, just as you would expect from a poor generator. And just like you'd expect, ?rand48() passes. > > The purpose of rand() is to provide a sound mathematical basis > > from which real work can be accomplished, not to make it so some > > Right. *Now*, it does this. No, it doesn't. Now it no longer repeats in the exact same sequence that it has historically repeated. It is no longer useful for repeating sequences. > > jackass can protect his password file with security through > > obscurity, without having to get off their duff and expend any > > effort. > > And this of course requires completely different mathematical > properties which is why rand() or random() is not used for seeding > password hash functions. I see the rand() change to an alias of random() as part and parcel of the /dev/random crap, where people who are not PhD's in math are pretending they are, and the system is becoming poorer for it. If people want random() instead of rand(), they should damn well call "random()" instead of calling "rand()". Additive feedback generators suck almost as much as the original rand() algorithm, which at least had the merit of repeatability over long periods of time, so that papers written 10 years ago yield the same results today as they did then. Consider that someone may have erroneously used rand() as something other than a repeatable pseudo-random sequence, and then used that for the basis of a paper. Now we have no comparative method for invalidating the conclusions of that paper, since it looks like rand() "works", when in fact, we should be questioning the methods used to arrive at the data. Only now, we can't, because someone took access to those methods away from us, preventing us from doing a comparative analysis. Ugh. Don't change boats in the middle of the river. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 13:49:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F3437B423 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.29]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GCO00L7BCHF4X@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AC14717DF; Tue, 01 May 2001 13:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:48:50 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? In-reply-to: <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:46:42AM -0700 To: Brooks Davis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010501134850.A1175@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:46:42AM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: > We don't use randomness anywhere in this code so that's not it. Well, what *IS* the behavior that's different only on Linux? - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 14: 9:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1413537B422 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f41L94v04088; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:09:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:09:04 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Alex Zepeda Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010501140904.A1609@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010501134850.A1175@zippy.mybox.zip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9amGYk9869ThD9tj" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010501134850.A1175@zippy.mybox.zip>; from jazepeda@pacbell.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 01:48:50PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --9amGYk9869ThD9tj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 01:48:50PM -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:46:42AM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: >=20 > > We don't use randomness anywhere in this code so that's not it. >=20 > Well, what *IS* the behavior that's different only on Linux? Significant variations in numerical results. There is some (expected) varition between most platforms, but it is generally of a very low order and mostly shows up in the form on numbers that are nearly zero being bogusly written as negative zero when printed with a fixed decimal. That's expected. What I'm seeing is things like 2.893 vs 2.632 which is a really huge variation. My suspicion is that there's a bug in the libm part of glibc, but there's really no good way to verify that, that I know of. I was hoping that by relacing glibc with something else I could at least determine if that's correct. Eventualy, I will have to go put in a shitload of trace output but that's promices to be exceeding painful given that I've got about 17K lines of application code to instrument and if it's a library problem, I'll probably have to dig into 30K lines of supporting code that provides proof that you can write FORTRAN code in any language. ;-) -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --9amGYk9869ThD9tj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE67yXwXY6L6fI4GtQRAkkPAKDQFXh4Y/+Aog+uxXzeShUN9YWzGQCfWfEM 5NtRs7jp7GvDqOmR64SWYp0= =Kv1F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9amGYk9869ThD9tj-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 14:15:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A968D37B422 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.29]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GCO006BNDOUWL@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D728217DF; Tue, 01 May 2001 14:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:14:53 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? In-reply-to: <20010501140904.A1609@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 02:09:04PM -0700 To: Brooks Davis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010501141453.A1432@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010501134850.A1175@zippy.mybox.zip> <20010501140904.A1609@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 02:09:04PM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: > Eventualy, I will have to go put in a shitload of trace output but > that's promices to be exceeding painful given that I've got about 17K > lines of application code to instrument and if it's a library problem, > I'll probably have to dig into 30K lines of supporting code that provides > proof that you can write FORTRAN code in any language. ;-) HAH.. Anyhow, are you using fpsetmask to tweak the floating point settings, or are you just leaving them at the default? If you're leaving them at the default, Linux probably has something set differently.. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 14:33:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E71537B423 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f41LXeX10288; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:33:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:33:40 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Alex Zepeda Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010501143340.A9526@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010501134850.A1175@zippy.mybox.zip> <20010501140904.A1609@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010501141453.A1432@zippy.mybox.zip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UugvWAfsgieZRqgk" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010501141453.A1432@zippy.mybox.zip>; from jazepeda@pacbell.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 02:14:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 02:14:53PM -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: >=20 > Anyhow, are you using fpsetmask to tweak the floating point settings, or > are you just leaving them at the default? If you're leaving them at the > default, Linux probably has something set differently.. I'm leaving them as default. Actually, as far as I can tell, Linux doesn't have fpsetmask and the hack all the docuements I saw described didn't actually work. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE67yuzXY6L6fI4GtQRAjc1AKCmoXE1QJlSHUmmfeZkBCzEJjpVcgCguYBV jweXOklLmNq34Pkl8fXG/tc= =m++C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 14:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1539837B422 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.29]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GCO00KFYEUROD@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 685431817; Tue, 01 May 2001 14:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:40:00 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? In-reply-to: <20010501143340.A9526@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 02:33:40PM -0700 To: Brooks Davis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010501144000.A1630@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <002c01c0d25d$10af76a0$08cc1f40@pdq.net> <20010501104642.A27136@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010501134850.A1175@zippy.mybox.zip> <20010501140904.A1609@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010501141453.A1432@zippy.mybox.zip> <20010501143340.A9526@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 02:33:40PM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: > I'm leaving them as default. Actually, as far as I can tell, Linux > doesn't have fpsetmask and the hack all the docuements I saw described > didn't actually work. Oh. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 19:22:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCEBB37B424 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 27205 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 01:18:19 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 May 2001 01:18:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 14664 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 02:22:14 -0000 Received: from du52.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.52]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 May 2001 02:22:14 -0000 Message-ID: <3AEF6F05.837D4405@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:20:53 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brooks Davis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis wrote: > > For lack of any where better to ask, I'll try chat. Does any one know > of a working port of a BSD libc for a modern Linux (RedHat 6.x, SuSE 6.y, > etc.) I ask because I've got some scientific code that's more or less > pure ANSI C that works just fine producing the same or nearly the same > results on FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, and even Alpha Linux, but on i386 > Linux it produces wildly different (though consistant) results. I'm > hoping for an easy to way to figure out it it's the kernel or glibc. What about running the Linux version on FreeBSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 1 21:51:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A04C37B423 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 21:51:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f424pi410136; Tue, 1 May 2001 21:51:44 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:51:44 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Brooks Davis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010501215144.A9872@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3AEF6F05.837D4405@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AEF6F05.837D4405@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:20:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:20:53PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > What about running the Linux version on FreeBSD? Running a linux binary on FreeBSD is probably worth a try. I'll have to give that a shot. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE675JgXY6L6fI4GtQRAi1jAKDlZ2tQqRjW3PimsXeb6N1XCUht2ACgnz56 QkH7Nu/zM1iAVf4nbC0WNp4= =CDe5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3MwIy2ne0vdjdPXF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 5:27:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EA237B422 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 05:27:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14uvjU-000Fqg-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:27:52 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f42CRoJ30681 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:27:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:27:50 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is Unix still popular as a front end anywhere? Message-ID: <20010502132750.A30609@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm trying to decide whether I should follow Unix/X or Java to my dream job, which is to write user-end apps for cutting edge workstations that run anything but the most popular operating system right now. What recommendations would anyone offer? jm -- ------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "Building a secure site with Windows 2000 is like looking after a small child. It needs constant attention." - Graeme Pinkney ------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 9:59:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.dobox.com (mail.dobox.com [208.187.122.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EAABB37B424 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@dobox.com) Received: (qmail 8130 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:59:28 -0000 Received: from salty.dobox.com (HELO dobox.com) (10.0.1.33) by spinoff.dobox.com with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:59:28 -0000 Message-ID: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:01:20 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: dsentelskids@yahoo.com Organization: DoBox Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.7 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: World wide email project, please help. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a real project, not a hoax. If you wish, reply to this message and show the kids what a big group the FreeBSD community is. Mention FreeBSD in your message. ************************************************************************ Hello Everyone! I recently read an email similar to this to my class, and they thought it was just the "coolest thing." Wanting to be a teacher that would subject my "kids" to The Coolest Things, I thought, Why not? Here are the details: We are 16 fourth graders (+ one class guinea pig, Farley Drexel) in a small rural community in Illinois. We've decided to map an email project to see where our email can travel via internet between now and May 9, 2001. (1 month exactly) We will also be graphing how many responses we get from each state *AND* hopefully country. This is NOT a pen-pal project as we will not write you back unless you request verification. (Which we will be glad to do...) You can help us by: 1.) Email us back at: dsentelskids@yahoo.com and tell us your city / state / country so we can plot it on a map and chart it on our graph. 2.) Forward this email to everyone you know so that they can send it to everyone they know and they can.....you get the picture......to help us reach even more people. I would like to prove to my kids that even though we are a small bunch from a small community we can do BIG things. We don't mind receiving repeats, so, please, send away! *HOPEFULLY*, with a little help, we would like to post our results on the website of our school. After we do this, you can all check in and see how we did. Our school site is: http://www.windsor.k12.il.us/ - but, PLEASE remember the finishing date is May 9 and it will take us a day or two to get it posted. With your help we can make this a very fun learning experience. We are all very excited! Thanks, in advance, for your help! Denise R. Sentel Windsor Grade School - 4th Grade -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters System Architect http://www.dobox.com/ DoBox Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 10:38:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B225737B422 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f42Hc7418475; Wed, 2 May 2001 10:38:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:38:07 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD libc for Linux? Message-ID: <20010502103807.A13410@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010430172143.A9910@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3AEF6F05.837D4405@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AEF6F05.837D4405@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:20:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 10:20:53PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > What about running the Linux version on FreeBSD? Good call. It looks like are some very minor differences in the library, but the major issues are between the OSes. Crap, now I have to figure out how to configure FPU settings under Linux. :-( -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE68EX+XY6L6fI4GtQRAtKmAJ9WQ+J0yJEz2BdeW1QTa6RkN7u3fgCaA5Dn 2bwwq0aAIsSytb6nfOklZtE= =16D9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 17: 5:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A5C37B422 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4305XP45689 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 00:05:33 GMT Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 00:05:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fortune canidate Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- SOF --- Peace, happiness, and code. -steve --- EOF --- -steve is steve@freebsd.org ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 17:26:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760BE37B424 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010503002626.BCDH24113.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:26:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF0A55C.9431EB63@home.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:25:00 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dsentelskids@yahoo.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. References: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kind of an internet version of the Ham DX Century Club, where confirmed communication with 100 different countries gets you a nice certificate. Rob. Wes Peters wrote: > > This is a real project, not a hoax. If you wish, reply to this message > and show the kids what a big group the FreeBSD community is. Mention > FreeBSD in your message. > > ************************************************************************ > > Hello Everyone! I recently read an email similar to this to my class, > and they thought it was just the "coolest thing." Wanting to be a > teacher that would subject my "kids" to The Coolest Things, I thought, > Why not? Here are the details: > > We are 16 fourth graders (+ one class guinea pig, Farley Drexel) in a > small rural community in Illinois. > > We've decided to map an email project to see where our email can > travel via internet between now and May 9, 2001. (1 month exactly) We > will also be graphing how many responses we get from each state *AND* > hopefully country. > > This is NOT a pen-pal project as we will not write you back unless you > request verification. (Which we will be glad to do...) > > You can help us by: > > 1.) Email us back at: dsentelskids@yahoo.com and tell us your city / > state / country so we can plot it on a map and chart it on our > graph. > > 2.) Forward this email to everyone you know so that they can send it > to everyone they know and they can.....you get the picture......to > help us reach even more people. > > I would like to prove to my kids that even though we are a small bunch > from a small community we can do BIG things. > > We don't mind receiving repeats, so, please, send away! *HOPEFULLY*, > with a little help, we would like to post our results on the website > of our school. > > After we do this, you can all check in and see how we did. Our school > site is: http://www.windsor.k12.il.us/ - but, PLEASE remember the > finishing date is May 9 and it will take us a day or two to get it > posted. With your help we can make this a very fun learning > experience. We are all very excited! > > Thanks, in advance, for your help! > > Denise R. Sentel > Windsor Grade School - 4th Grade > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters System Architect > http://www.dobox.com/ DoBox Inc. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 17:36: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00ACF37B62A for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00257; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:35:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:35:48 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. In-Reply-To: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 AM 5/2/2001, Wes Peters wrote: >This is a real project, not a hoax. Many chain letters that were not intended to be circulated in perpetuity have gotten out of control. They've continued to make the rounds for years afterward, consuming bandwidth and making sysadmins miserable. (See http://urbanlegends.about.com/.) To start another is very ill-advised, since the problem may recur even if an explicit time limit is given in the message. (Time limits stated in such messages are often buried deep within the text or truncated during retransmission.) Perhaps the teacher in question should have set a better example by researching this, and learning about some other messages that have run amok, before suggesting it as a class project. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 18:58:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (h11s128a248n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.248.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F56937B43F for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrens@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com [47.196.31.114]) by hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f431wMK85575 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 21:58:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from atrens@nortelnetworks.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:58:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Atrens X-X-Sender: To: Subject: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any considered opinions on this ? http://www.pcug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html I've set up a freebsd-style make system for our project which is blazingly fast on freebsd (and solaris), but sucks lemons on NT (mostly because of Cygwin fork+exec). Anyhow I've taken a lot of heat as a result of this paper, from people who are more talk and less action than myself. Cheers, Andrew. -- +-- | Andrew Atrens Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada. | | All opinions expressed are my own, not those of any employer. | --+ Berkeley had what we called "copycenter", which is "take it down to the copy center and make as many copies as you want". -- Kirk McKusick --+ Schapiro's Explanation: The grass is always greener on the other side -- but that's because they use more manure. --+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 21: 7: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.2600.org.au (phoenix.2600.org.au [203.202.88.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF13E37B423 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 21:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@rendrag.net) Received: from tim (unknown [172.16.2.60]) by phoenix.2600.org.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 14A1E45CC2 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:06:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <019a01c0d386$1468ba20$3c0210ac@bcmpartnership.com.au> From: "Tim Kent" To: Subject: Kernel messages Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:03:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know if this is the right list to talk about this, but I have kernel messages like the following: Connection attempt to UDP 203.102.84.24:137 from 163.32.8.161:137 This message, is of course enabled with "net.inet.udp.log_in_vain" The thing I find odd about this is that UDP is connectionless, yet the FreeBSD kernel clearly pumps out the message "Connection attempt to UDP.." Should this message be changed to something more appropriate? Tim. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 2 21:27:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4FA637B422 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 21:26:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 24454 invoked by uid 100); 3 May 2001 04:26:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15088.56827.109787.425047@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 23:26:35 -0500 To: Andrew Atrens Cc: Subject: Re: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Atrens types: > Any considered opinions on this ? > > http://www.pcug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html > > I've set up a freebsd-style make system for our project which is blazingly > fast on freebsd (and solaris), but sucks lemons on NT (mostly because of > Cygwin fork+exec). It's an interesting approach to the problems with Make, and hopefully will be more successful than the others that exist. Most people who've attacked the problem simply punted on make completely. Jam seems to be the most popular of the bunch, but none of them are really popular, largely because they aren't backwards compatible with make. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 0:44:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D215137B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 00:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f437iPq40943 ; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:44:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA77456 ; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:44:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:44:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. Message-ID: <20010503094435.A77195@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:35:48PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 2, 2001 at 18:35:48: > At 11:01 AM 5/2/2001, Wes Peters wrote: > > >This is a real project, not a hoax. > > Many chain letters that were not intended to be circulated in perpetuity > have gotten out of control. They've continued to make the rounds for > years afterward, consuming bandwidth and making sysadmins miserable. (See > http://urbanlegends.about.com/.) To start another is very ill-advised, I agree. And a lot of internet users (perhaps the majority today) are still very trusting of all email they receive, which makes the problem worse. I refuse to forward this, or any other mail which says "please forward to everyone you know". - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 1:57:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.Cadence.COM (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B14737B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 01:57:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@dmlb.org) Received: from symnt3.Cadence.COM (symnt3.Cadence.COM [194.32.101.100]) by mailgate.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07672; Thu, 3 May 2001 01:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc610cam (pc610-cam.cadence.com [194.32.96.210]) by symnt3.Cadence.COM with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id JTJAXBJQ; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:42:13 +0100 Message-ID: <009701c0d3ad$6598a780$d26020c2@Cadence.COM> From: "Duncan Barclay" To: "Andrew Atrens" , References: Subject: Re: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:45:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Received: By mailgate.Cadence.COM as BAA07672 at Thu May 3 01:45:41 2001 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi It's a good paper. I've done an implmentation of a build system that works this way. Take a look at http://www.ragnet.demon.co.uk/RM/remake.html Duncan -- _____________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Atrens" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 2:58 AM Subject: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? > > Any considered opinions on this ? > > http://www.pcug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html > > I've set up a freebsd-style make system for our project which is blazingly > fast on freebsd (and solaris), but sucks lemons on NT (mostly because of > Cygwin fork+exec). > > Anyhow I've taken a lot of heat as a result of this paper, from people who > are more talk and less action than myself. > > > Cheers, > > Andrew. > -- > > +-- > | Andrew Atrens Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada. | > | All opinions expressed are my own, not those of any employer. | > --+ > Berkeley had what we called "copycenter", which is "take it down > to the copy center and make as many copies as you want". > -- Kirk McKusick > --+ > Schapiro's Explanation: > The grass is always greener on the other side -- but that's > because they use more manure. > --+ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 2: 8:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184E037B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 02:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4398Od09271; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:08:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:08:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: dsentelskids@yahoo.com Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. Message-ID: <20010503190823.H220@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dsentelskids@yahoo.com References: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost> <20010503094435.A77195@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010503094435.A77195@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 09:44:35AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 09:44:35AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brett Glass said on May 2, 2001 at 18:35:48: > > At 11:01 AM 5/2/2001, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > >This is a real project, not a hoax. > > > > Many chain letters that were not intended to be circulated in perpetuity > > have gotten out of control. They've continued to make the rounds for > > years afterward, consuming bandwidth and making sysadmins miserable. (See > > http://urbanlegends.about.com/.) To start another is very ill-advised, > > I agree. And a lot of internet users (perhaps the majority today) > are still very trusting of all email they receive, which makes > the problem worse. I refuse to forward this, or any other mail which > says "please forward to everyone you know". If you feel that strongly about it, why not take the opportunity to _educate_ when people are trying to learn? Note the cc. Any objection on my part is irrelevant, because chain letters used for any purpose and sent by any means, including by email, are illegal in Australia. Many people don't know, or don't care, but theoretically it would be illegal for me to ask someone to forward an email to all their friends, or to forward one myself, no matter how worthy the cause. (I live in Gosford near Sydney.) Now if someone over here, or in some country where they cut heads off for every little naughtiness, reads such an email and obeys it in ignorance, who's gonna feel all guilty about it? Who will suffer? The well intentioned sender. That's why it is _particularly_ important _not_ to do mass forwards of email for worthy causes. This is a very educational project, and I applaud the teacher for taking it on. One of the big lessons is that when you try to learn one thing, you often end up learning something better. And many others, such as conversational use of ">" quotes in email. We have a lot to learn from this too, like how to prevent undesired behaviour by correcting someone gently from their side of the fence and offering guidance to move in the better direction, rather than criticising among ourselves without offering the courtesy of feedback. If you don't like what someone does because of ignorance, unless you try to help them to feel comfortable about doing it right you're as guilty as them. As a group we've been working on learning that one for years. I think we've made the point about not forwarding uninvited emails to groups of email addresses. Hopefully their email access hasn't been cut off for spamming yet. There's nothing stopping any of us as individuals either responding kindly to the original request for a "Hello from Sydney" style email, or asking a more remote friend if they'd care to do so, or even shutting up and forgetting about it. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 2:26:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B1137B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 02:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f439Ptq54571 ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:25:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA81880 ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:26:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:26:06 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. Message-ID: <20010503112606.A81702@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost> <20010503094435.A77195@lpt.ens.fr> <20010503190823.H220@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010503190823.H220@welearn.com.au>; from sue@welearn.com.au on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 07:08:23PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake said on May 3, 2001 at 19:08:23: > > the problem worse. I refuse to forward this, or any other mail which > > says "please forward to everyone you know". > > If you feel that strongly about it, why not take the opportunity > to _educate_ when people are trying to learn? Note the cc. I was going to, but planned to take the time to phrase it more nicely, later in the day (given that these are schoolkids, and that anyway they wouldn't be awake yet, being in another timezone) :) Your mail certainly does the job better than I could have done. (cc removed) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 2:33:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4D737B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 02:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f439Xkq55500 ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:33:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA82197 ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:33:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:33:58 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. Message-ID: <20010503113358.B81702@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost> <20010503094435.A77195@lpt.ens.fr> <20010503190823.H220@welearn.com.au> <20010503112606.A81702@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010503112606.A81702@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 11:26:06AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on May 3, 2001 at 11:26:06: > Sue Blake said on May 3, 2001 at 19:08:23: > > > the problem worse. I refuse to forward this, or any other mail which > > > says "please forward to everyone you know". > > > > If you feel that strongly about it, why not take the opportunity > > to _educate_ when people are trying to learn? Note the cc. > > I was going to, but planned to take the time to phrase it more > nicely And, rightly or wrongly, I didn't feel that necessity in replying to the one who sent it to this list (it wasn't those kids) - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 2:54:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A173137B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 02:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f439rNh09430; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:53:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:53:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: World wide email project, please help. Message-ID: <20010503195323.I220@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3AF03D60.15FFEDBC@dobox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010502182806.046ac670@localhost> <20010503094435.A77195@lpt.ens.fr> <20010503190823.H220@welearn.com.au> <20010503112606.A81702@lpt.ens.fr> <20010503113358.B81702@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010503113358.B81702@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 11:33:58AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 11:33:58AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan said on May 3, 2001 at 11:26:06: > > Sue Blake said on May 3, 2001 at 19:08:23: > > > > the problem worse. I refuse to forward this, or any other mail which > > > > says "please forward to everyone you know". > > > > > > If you feel that strongly about it, why not take the opportunity > > > to _educate_ when people are trying to learn? Note the cc. > > > > I was going to, but planned to take the time to phrase it more > > nicely > > And, rightly or wrongly, I didn't feel that necessity in replying to > the one who sent it to this list (it wasn't those kids) Good points, taken. It had not occurred to me that a school teacher might be subjecting kids to email responses without reading them him/herself first. If that's happening, they'll be in for many stronger surprises from elsewhere, plus our full thread in the archives if they search. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 4:59:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 649C537B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 04:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 64252 invoked by uid 0); 3 May 2001 11:59:18 -0000 Received: from cuscon4812.tstt.net.tt (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.222.64) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 3 May 2001 11:59:18 -0000 Message-ID: <3AF14814.B259D186@uwi.tt> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 07:59:16 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Modem Woes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm using a copy of FreeBSD 3.1 and an Aztec modem. Alas I have been struggling with my modem over the last couple of days. Every time I add the other two serial ports sio2 & sio3 and I look at the boot .. I see a not found messsage. However, I know its a fact that the modem is com4 in windows. Is it that I really really have to go do a custom kernel? If so do I just add the serial ports there or do I have to add pnp support in the kernel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 7:38:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A969E37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 07:38:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f43Ec8803834; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:38:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418213837.00bcb100@localhost> Message-ID: <20010503103123.A3018-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The GPL hurts Microsoft's potential competitors far more than it > does Microsoft. Microsoft, which is now rich, can afford to throw > hundreds of programmers at a project to reimplement everything > from scratch. But small competitors need to concentrate on the > innovative parts of their code and re-use existing code for the > more mundane functions that no one should have to program again! > The GPL prevents them from doing this and thus cripples their > development process. If you want to see competition for Microsoft, > oppose the GPL. At http://channel.nytimes.com/2001/05/03/technology/03SOFT.html you can hear a Microsoft Corp. VP agreeing with you. Of course, you may again think that he really means something else. :) -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 7:46:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0647F37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07135; Thu, 3 May 2001 08:46:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503084521.046a6710@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 08:46:42 -0600 To: Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: In-Reply-To: <20010503103123.A3018-100000@blues.jpj.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418213837.00bcb100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:38 AM 5/3/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: >> The GPL hurts Microsoft's potential competitors far more than it >> does Microsoft. Microsoft, which is now rich, can afford to throw >> hundreds of programmers at a project to reimplement everything >> from scratch. But small competitors need to concentrate on the >> innovative parts of their code and re-use existing code for the >> more mundane functions that no one should have to program again! >> The GPL prevents them from doing this and thus cripples their >> development process. If you want to see competition for Microsoft, >> oppose the GPL. > >At http://channel.nytimes.com/2001/05/03/technology/03SOFT.html you can >hear a Microsoft Corp. VP agreeing with you. Ironically, yes. Just because someone is a Microsoft VP does not mean that what he says is ALWAYS false. These articles say it better, though, and are worse reading: http://davenet.userland.com/2000/09/15/whatIsOpenSource http://www.usermode.org/docs/tangledweb.html http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3297/1/ http://www.usermode.org/docs/wordstoavoid.html --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 7:59:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BA037B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 07:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07377; Thu, 3 May 2001 08:59:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503085834.04679100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 08:59:34 -0600 To: Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Ooh. Bad typo. (Was: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux) Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not fully awake, I mistyped: >These articles say it better, though, and are worse reading: I meant, of course, "worth reading." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 9:20:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF22337B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA97746; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:11:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:11:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Andrew Atrens Cc: Subject: Re: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2 May 2001, Andrew Atrens wrote: > Any considered opinions on this ? > > http://www.pcug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html Excellent. A very scientific approach with good stuff to back it up, instead of "I really think it would just be better this way". I'm not a make expert myself, but I do understand it quite a bit more, and it brings a whole new light to the time it takes to do a 'make world'. :-) By the sound of it, converting the current FreeBSD source tree to use a single makefile might not be as big of a task as it would seem. Once the framework is in place, it should be possible to transition from a recursive make structure to a single make instance over time and not have to be done all at once. Right? (Again, I'm no make expert) The benefits of this could be huge to both the user community and the developers. Imagine a 'make world' that takes just a minute or two (or less?) after you've made a change that could have a potentially sweeping affect on the codebase. The single make instance (as long as the DAG is correct, as you mention) could help developers identify very quickly which other pieces of code their change affected without having to do the currently very long and laborious 'make world' as we know it. The benefits to the general userbase would just simply be quick subsequent 'make world's, and probably a slightly faster initial 'make world' because of fewer forks/etc. :-) Oh yeah, wouldn't a single make instance also totally eliminate any potential problems -- as well as increase the effectiveness -- of doing parallel (-j #) builds? That could be a significant advantage over the current system as well. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 9:51:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375D037B43C for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43GpSG71877; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200105031015.DAA08946@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 09:50:42 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.or Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-May-01 jessem@livecam.com wrote: > Jordan, > I don't buy this story for a moment. You should expect > SVBUG not to either. This can only be classified as: > > A) A poor excuse for a coverup (for some unknown reason) > B) Major incompetence (in which someone should resign) > C) Aliens have landed > > If as you say, it has been known since the 20th of > April, 2001, then the world (and FreeBSD) has plenty > of channels for communications. Windriver has a website, > it is un-affected by FreeBSD traffic. BSDi has a website, > it is un-affected by FreeBSD traffic. Daemonnews has > a website.... Do I need continue? Oh man oh man. You crack me up. Obviously this is all a conspiracy to keep you from accessing the 4.3 release bits and you've found us out. Oh no! The horror! Come on here. Extract your head long enough to think. What _possible_ benefit would there be for FreeBSD to sabotage ftp.freesoftware.com and attempt to cover it up? Are there _any_ marbles left in your head? Obviously the space aliens are visiting in full force. *chuckle* -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 10:14:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA51537B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03534; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:14:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAB4aG0g; Thu May 3 10:14:06 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20516; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:27:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105031727.KAA20516@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? To: atrens@nortelnetworks.com (Andrew Atrens) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:27:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Atrens" at May 02, 2001 09:58:22 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Any considered opinions on this ? > > http://www.pcug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html > > I've set up a freebsd-style make system for our project which is blazingly > fast on freebsd (and solaris), but sucks lemons on NT (mostly because of > Cygwin fork+exec). > > Anyhow I've taken a lot of heat as a result of this paper, from people who > are more talk and less action than myself. I think all of the issues pointed out in the paper can be addressed with a top level include file that sets the tone for the build process. Personally, I have dealt with ordering dependencies by making my build process multipass. This lets me move things between passes without a lot of effort. If you have less of a hard correspondance between your build tree and your source repository (e.g. everything you use is stored in seperate modules, and checked out during the build process, if it's not already there), then you can do the same thing logically without additional Makefile magic by setting up top level ordered pass directories. This might be directories such as "pass1", "pass2", etc., into which you check out modules as subdirectories. My own project's build process is 6 passes, and involves arouns 3.8 million lines of code, so far, for the project components, a lot of which are open source and are built into target directories with "configure" being run, etc., and if I change one file anywhere, it just Does The Right Thing, including using gmake for some of the components (it gets built in pass2). The code compiles and runs on FreeBSD, Solaris, HP/UX, and Linux, and I have good reason to expect it to work in AIX, as well. I think that if you take the paper too seriously, or the complaints of people without a decent "make" program too seriously, that you are going to be doomed to mediocrity; a prohibition against tricky things is a prohibition against clever and innovative soloutions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 10:21:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C6F37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26091; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:21:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAACGaq7Y; Thu May 3 10:21:19 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20670; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:34:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105031734.KAA20670@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Modem Woes To: dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:34:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <3AF14814.B259D186@uwi.tt> from "Dale Chulhan - Home" at May 03, 2001 07:59:16 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm using a copy of FreeBSD 3.1 and an Aztec modem. > > Alas I have been struggling with my modem over the last couple of days. > > Every time I add the other two serial ports sio2 & sio3 and I look at > the boot .. I see a not found messsage. > > However, I know its a fact that the modem is com4 in windows. > > Is it that I really really have to go do a custom kernel? If so do I > just add the serial ports there or do I have to add pnp support in the > kernel. In FreeBSD, COM ports can not share IRQs. If your modem is COM4: in Windows, it uses IRQ 3, which is already allocated to COM2:. Rejumper or re-software configure your card to use an IRQ other than 3. Note that Windows can "share" IRQs 4 and 3 (COM1: IRQ 4, COM2: IRQ 3, COM3: IRQ 4, COM4: IRQ 3) because it does not open both COM1: and COM3: or COM2: and COM4: simultaneously. FreeBSDs driver is either more stupid (in not supporting exclusive use, or enabling interrupts from the UARTs _only_ when the ports are open), OR it is more intelligent (in permitting all 4 serial ports to be used at the same time, instead of limiting you to two of them) -- it depends on your point of view. PS: FreeBSD _probably_ ought to permit both modes of serial port operation; feel free to submit patches. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 10:51:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAF837B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09413; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:49:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:49:37 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Modem Woes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <200105031734.KAA20670@usr02.primenet.com> References: <3AF14814.B259D186@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:34 AM 5/3/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >In FreeBSD, COM ports can not share IRQs. Terry, this is not correct. I have several multiport cards in which several UARTs share IRQs. They all run fine under FreeBSD. Here's an excerpt from the kernel config of one of them: device sio2 at isa? port "IO_COM3" tty flags 0x585 vector siointr device sio3 at isa? port "IO_COM4" tty flags 0x585 vector siointr device sio4 at isa? port 0x1f8 tty flags 0x585 vector siointr device sio5 at isa? port 0x1e8 tty flags 0x585 irq 9 vector siointr All of them share IRQ 9. >If your modem is COM4: in Windows, it uses IRQ 3, which is >already allocated to COM2:. Attempting to share IRQs between ports can cause an electrical problem on the bus IF the ports are on two separate ISA cards, because the IRQ lines on ISA are tri-state, not open collector. But if the UARTS are on EISA or PCI cards, or on the same card, an IRQ can be shared. >Note that Windows can "share" IRQs 4 and 3 (COM1: IRQ 4, >COM2: IRQ 3, COM3: IRQ 4, COM4: IRQ 3) because it does not >open both COM1: and COM3: or COM2: and COM4: simultaneously. I've had comm ports that shared IRQs open simultaneously under Windows. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11: 3:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E341B37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:03:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f43I3Gp71344; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:03:20 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200105031803.f43I3Gp71344@gratis.grondar.za> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Modem Woes References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> ; from Brett Glass "Thu, 03 May 2001 11:49:37 CST." Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 20:05:09 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >In FreeBSD, COM ports can not share IRQs. > > Terry, this is not correct. I have several multiport cards > in which several UARTs share IRQs. They all run fine > under FreeBSD. Here's an excerpt from the kernel config of > one of them: Erm you guys are talking about different things. COMports are the "usual" serial ports that one finds on the motherboard these days and on a "multi-io" card in the old days. > device sio2 at isa? port "IO_COM3" tty flags 0x585 vector siointr > device sio3 at isa? port "IO_COM4" tty flags 0x585 vector siointr > device sio4 at isa? port 0x1f8 tty flags 0x585 vector siointr > device sio5 at isa? port 0x1e8 tty flags 0x585 irq 9 vector siointr These are mutiport cards, and they can share interrupts _only_ because they have the hardware to do it. This hardware is NOT usual on a "normal" COMport. M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11: 3:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECDE37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12112; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105031804.LAA12112@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503104606M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > I don't know what part of "this has nothing to do with hacking > FreeBSD" you did not understand before, but this list has a very clear > and well-stated CHARTER which is posted here: > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > > and this discussion clearly does not fall under it. As the charter > very explicitly states: "Ongoing irrelevant chatter or flaming only > detracts from the value of the mailing list for everyone on it and > will not be tolerated" > > You may therefore consider this your second official warning that you > are not in compliance with the charter for this mailing list and need > only one more offense to warrant a ban. Since this will also not be > the first time you have managed to ban yourself from this list, I > suspect that a ban on this occasion may prove permanent, so take heed! > > I have already communicated the true situation with ftp.freebsd.org as > best I could using the appropriate channels and whatever you or SVBUG > may choose to say about it is purely your own business, simply keep it > off this mailing list. A perfectly good mailing list, chat@freebsd.org, > also exists for just this kind of thing and you are more than > encouraged to take this "discussion" there. > > This is your second and final warning and if you choose to reply to > this message, either make it personal to me only or cc it to > freebsd-chat. I've only cc'd hackers twice myself to show that the > issue is being dealt with and to ensure that the warnings are properly > on record. Anything further you send to -hackers, unless on a more > appropriate topic, will constitute a banning offense. Thank you. > At your request, I have moved this to hackers. Per your insistance, that this has nothing to do with hackers, is in my opinion Bull. The pettyness that is rising *is* solely on your part. I have no agenda here other than that *that is good* for BSD and the businesses and jobs around BSD. I'm taking into account my previous actions, words and behaviour. I have purposefully NOT acted or commented other than which you have seen in my writings, as of late. I might ask for forgiveness, but I will not. I might consider I could have taken a different tack, but I did not. I did consider that people are human, make mistakes and correct them, that has not seemed to matter. I urge you to stop the rhetoric NOW. I urge you to respond, as we would expect a BSDer to respond when dealing with issues of a professional nature. My opinions are my own. They always will be. Why you and others fear my comments and responses, as you do, has always baffled me. No Farings and Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:11:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F1C37B440 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16796; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:04:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAANQa4XG; Thu May 3 11:03:55 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29153; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:15:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105031815.LAA29153@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Modem Woes To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:15:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at May 03, 2001 11:49:37 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >In FreeBSD, COM ports can not share IRQs. > > Terry, this is not correct. I have several multiport cards > in which several UARTs share IRQs. They all run fine > under FreeBSD. Here's an excerpt from the kernel config of > one of them: Brett, these are multiport cards, which have interrupt coelescing logic on the multiport card, and for which the multiport card itself is the source of the interrupt, not the individual UART. As a result, while you are marking these things as "shared", from the driver perspective, from the perspective of the motherboard, they are _NOT_ shared. PC motherboards can not share ISA interrupts, period, unless they only enable the interrupts on one "shared" device at a time. This is an electrical fact, since the interrupts on ISA are _NOT_ level triggered and _can not be_ level triggered, because the orginal PC design left out 3 very inexpensive (even at the time) electronic components. > >If your modem is COM4: in Windows, it uses IRQ 3, which is > >already allocated to COM2:. > > Attempting to share IRQs between ports can cause an electrical > problem on the bus IF the ports are on two separate > ISA cards, because the IRQ lines on ISA are tri-state, not open > collector. But if the UARTS are on EISA or PCI cards, or > on the same card, an IRQ can be shared. By definition, the COM1 and COM2 ports are on the muli I/O chip in PC hardware, and are ISA devices. He _CAN NOT_ share a PCI and an ISA interrupt. > >Note that Windows can "share" IRQs 4 and 3 (COM1: IRQ 4, > >COM2: IRQ 3, COM3: IRQ 4, COM4: IRQ 3) because it does not > >open both COM1: and COM3: or COM2: and COM4: simultaneously. > > I've had comm ports that shared IRQs open simultaneously under > Windows. Yes, when you loaded a card specific driver, for them, and when they were on the same card, or on different PCI cards; _AND_ you _DID NOT_ share the same IRQ with an ISA device that was soldered onto the motherboard. It is highly probable that we are talking about an IRQ conflict, given that he _already stated_ that he was plugging a modem in, _AND_ that Windows rec0ognized it as COM4 without being beat over the head with a 2x4 or having a new driver loaded. Your post unnecessarily confused the issue. Realize that if the person were not a rank newby, he would have posted his question to -questions, where it belonged, instead of to -chat. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:17:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290B237B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09793; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:17:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503121434.045cac30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:17:25 -0600 To: Mark Murray From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Modem Woes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <200105031803.f43I3Gp71344@gratis.grondar.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:05 PM 5/3/2001, Mark Murray wrote: >These are mutiport cards, and they can share interrupts _only_ >because they have the hardware to do it. This hardware is NOT usual >on a "normal" COMport. Actually, these ARE ordinary ports. They use exactly the same UARTs as others. The only difference is that, if they are ISA cards, the IRQ lines are "ORed" before they leave the card so that there isn't a "tug of war" between two tri-state drivers on an ISA IRQ line. PCI cards can share IRQs, so it's not an issue with PCI. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:22:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C4F37B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43ILd346480; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:21:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105031804.LAA12112@dnull.com> References: <20010503104606M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105031804.LAA12112@dnull.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:21:39 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 59 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: jessem@livecam.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) > At your request, I have moved this to hackers. You mean chat. Thank you. > Per your insistance, that this has nothing to do with hackers, is > in my opinion Bull. Your opinion doesn't count for much in this case since it's clearly not a -hackers issue. The freebsd-hackers mailing list, as is again clearly outlined in the charter I pointed you to, is for technical discussion. I simply cannot see how anyone with a reasonable command of english could read into that a mandate for discussing the FTP site. There's even a mailing list purely devoted to discussing that infrastructure and it's called hubs@freebsd.org. > The pettyness that is rising *is* solely on your part. I have no > agenda here other than that *that is good* for BSD and the businesses > and jobs around BSD. What you evidently see as pettyness is my simply trying to keep the mailing lists sane and comparatively focused on things other than flamebait. You seem equally adept at generating flamebait and then attempting to pass it off under the guise of "supporting the community" or "doing what's good for BSD" and when people come back and call a spade a spade, you evade the issue entirely by suggesting that identifying flamebait as such constitutes a fear of your opinions or some other such rubbish. Sorry, I don't buy it. > I urge you to stop the rhetoric NOW. I urge you to respond, as > we would expect a BSDer to respond when dealing with issues > of a professional nature. I have already responded, in just over 5000 words, to freebsd-announce as a BSDer. The fact that you then chose to regard that as a cover-up for some reason is your own doing and not something I can even genuinely respond to since I think the only response which would satisfy you at this point would be something to the effect of: OK Jesus, you're right, you caught us. This has all been a highly orchestrated plot between Wind River and Microsoft, who are secretly in collusion and actually the same company, to wipe out a promising young operating system effort and acquire its developers for pennies on the dollar. They figured that after they got us all turned out on the streets and forced to sell our bodies and various internal organs for food, they could acquire us cheap and get us to sign the waiver form that allows the Visual Basic brain implants. Then we'd simply turn into Borg-like zombies who wrote Visual Basic all day long without complaint and nothing other than an occasionally mumbled "ActiveX controls are good!" escaping from our lips. Ah Jesus, I quail before your mighty insight! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:25:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C178737B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09888; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:24:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503121741.045d38d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:22:26 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Modem Woes Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <200105031815.LAA29153@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:15 PM 5/3/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Brett, these are multiport cards, which have interrupt coelescing >logic on the multiport card, There isn't any fancy logic.... It's just a "wired OR," since the UART chips have open collector IRQ outputs. >PC motherboards can not share ISA interrupts, period, It is true that two separate ISA cards can't share IRQs. However, many motherboard chipsets are now designed so that a UART on the motherboard can share an IRQ with an ISA card successfully. The motherboard chip makers have done this to forestall endless complaints from users. >It is highly probable that we are talking about an IRQ conflict, >given that he _already stated_ that he was plugging a modem in, >_AND_ that Windows rec0ognized it as COM4 without being beat over >the head with a 2x4 or having a new driver loaded. Windows assigns "COMx" port numbers without regard to I/O port address or IRQ number. While it says "COM4:", you may discover that the board uses, say, IRQ 11 and I/O base address 300. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:51: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5C237B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00495; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:50:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:50:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Dennis Reiter Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000205182137.I70413@reiters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Dennis Reiter wrote: > And I missed it by moments: > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00679.JPG > > much to my Slackware using friend's delight: > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00678.JPG > > :-) > > While amateurish, the rest of the pix aren't bad, either. The links aren't working. Maybe freebsd-chat has generated too much traffic for them. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:53:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C32737B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12484; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105031853.LAA12484@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:53:02 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > From: jessem@livecam.com > Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) > >> At your request, I have moved this to hackers. > > You mean chat. Thank you. > Yes, Thank you. >> Per your insistance, that this has nothing to do with hackers, is >> in my opinion Bull. > > Your opinion doesn't count for much in this case since it's clearly > not a -hackers issue. The freebsd-hackers mailing list, as is again > clearly outlined in the charter I pointed you to, is for technical > discussion. I simply cannot see how anyone with a reasonable command > of english could read into that a mandate for discussing the FTP site. > There's even a mailing list purely devoted to discussing that > infrastructure and it's called hubs@freebsd.org. > charter-smarter... the point is everyone within the FreeBSD community should be aware of this situation. If anything, this is a rally call for BSDers. I'm upset because there are people within the community that are fully willing to help, be involved and spend their *own* money to see this through. As such, -hackers (et al.) should know this to be the case. Emailing you privately has prove to be less than useful. >> The pettyness that is rising *is* solely on your part. I have no >> agenda here other than that *that is good* for BSD and the businesses >> and jobs around BSD. > > What you evidently see as pettyness is my simply trying to keep the > mailing lists sane and comparatively focused on things other than > flamebait. > > You seem equally adept at generating flamebait and then attempting to > pass it off under the guise of "supporting the community" or "doing > what's good for BSD" and when people come back and call a spade a > spade, you evade the issue entirely by suggesting that identifying > flamebait as such constitutes a fear of your opinions or some other > such rubbish. Sorry, I don't buy it. > Okay, I'll agree with you on that. At times I have purposefully done this. And in this case, I know (word of mouth) there are issues that even I will not discuss in writing. None the less, 'aliens' in this context is an escape mechanism (I expected it to used as such). Personally, I have not felt this much tension in years. Perhaps since 'pussycat.net'. In any case, I will stop flame baits, if you resort thing we can agree on. Per Windriver, the announcement on April 4, 2001 clearly states in the second headline, "Agreement Ensures Continued Support of Open Source FreeBSD Project." In plain english, this should mean we can continue to develop as we have in the past and when Windriver has a course change we will listen. Well, to date, no one outside of Windriver knows what that involvement has been. Speculation is based partly on bad experiences in the Linux community with other corporate involvements. Add to that BSD involvements in the past with corporations, has not been altogether benifical. Speculation started not with me, but as response of current events and past situations. One would expect nothing less. >> I urge you to stop the rhetoric NOW. I urge you to respond, as >> we would expect a BSDer to respond when dealing with issues >> of a professional nature. > > I have already responded, in just over 5000 words, to freebsd-announce > as a BSDer. The fact that you then chose to regard that as a cover-up > for some reason is your own doing and not something I can even > genuinely respond to since I think the only response which would > satisfy you at this point would be something to the effect of: > > OK Jesus, you're right, you caught us. This has all been a highly > orchestrated plot between Wind River and Microsoft, who are secretly > in collusion and actually the same company, to wipe out a promising > young operating system effort and acquire its developers for pennies > on the dollar. They figured that after they got us all turned out on > the streets and forced to sell our bodies and various internal organs > for food, they could acquire us cheap and get us to sign the waiver > form that allows the Visual Basic brain implants. Then we'd simply > turn into Borg-like zombies who wrote Visual Basic all day long > without complaint and nothing other than an occasionally mumbled > "ActiveX controls are good!" escaping from our lips. > > Ah Jesus, I quail before your mighty insight! > For a moment, I though you might see this point. I urge you to reconsider this point and return to the discussion. Then again as I BCC Lynne for the last time on this subject, I must consider she is right. Because I have not heard this *just* from her, "the aging BSD mafia...prefer to sit in their towers reliving past intrigues and battles. The have become anachronism in an Internet World." Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:54:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66DF537B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 09B5367B85; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:54:35 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Chris Dillon Cc: Dennis Reiter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20010503115435.A8662@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20000205182137.I70413@reiters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 01:50:44PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 01:50:44PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Dennis Reiter wrote: >=20 > > And I missed it by moments: > > > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00679.JPG > > > > much to my Slackware using friend's delight: > > > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00678.JPG > > > > :-) > > > > While amateurish, the rest of the pix aren't bad, either. >=20 > The links aren't working. Maybe freebsd-chat has generated too much > traffic for them. :-) Maybe they've been moved some time in the past 15 months :-) Kris --vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE68alrWry0BWjoQKURAsEiAJ4k7GcLgWMTtbpFkfFNse3yZRwbGwCdG1+X 3NEXN7a3j0rrwd5E4wYYLWg= =UtOq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vkogqOf2sHV7VnPd-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 11:55:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06BE37B505 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f43Ishp71762; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:54:45 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200105031854.f43Ishp71762@gratis.grondar.za> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Modem Woes References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503121434.045cac30@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503121434.045cac30@localhost> ; from Brett Glass "Thu, 03 May 2001 12:17:25 CST." Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 20:56:35 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:05 PM 5/3/2001, Mark Murray wrote: > > >These are mutiport cards, and they can share interrupts _only_ > >because they have the hardware to do it. This hardware is NOT usual > >on a "normal" COMport. > > Actually, these ARE ordinary ports. They use exactly the same > UARTs as others. The only difference is that, if they are ISA > cards, the IRQ lines are "ORed" before they leave the card so > that there isn't a "tug of war" between two tri-state drivers > on an ISA IRQ line. In other words, you agree with me. "The hardware" is the OR gates you are talking about that motherboard UARTS don't have the privelige of using. M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12: 7:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF8037B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43J5i346658; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:05:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105031853.LAA12484@dnull.com> References: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105031853.LAA12484@dnull.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010503120544M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:05:44 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 50 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > charter-smarter... the point is everyone within the FreeBSD community > should be aware of this situation. You don't get to make that call, Jesus. The charters are there for a reason, most notably the fact that some people (hi) seem to think that the rules only apply if they don't personally feel a really strong need to break them. That's not what rules are about and it's specifically to curb the tendency towards "individualistic interpretation" that they exist. Bad Jesus, no biscuit for this round. > Per Windriver, the announcement on April 4, 2001 clearly > states in the second headline, "Agreement Ensures Continued > Support of Open Source FreeBSD Project." In plain english, > this should mean we can continue to develop as we have > in the past and when Windriver has a course change we > will listen. Well, WindRiver has no "course changes" in mind at this point and aren't even actively engaged yet. Go talk to any of the BSDi employees in engineering and you'll find that all of them STILL WORK FOR BSDi and that the deal is still very much "in progress" at this time. What you read back in early April was a press release stating an INTENT to do all of these things, and if you were at all familiar with the bigger deals like this one, you'd know that months can often pass between the time where everyone states an intention to do something and when the lawyers finally finish looking through all the paperwork and sign off on actually doing it. Only someone very naive' about how businesses work would actually expect that a full take-over has occurred in less than a month and that we're all now marching to the beat of a different drummer. Ha! That's also why at least 99% of the government conspiracy theories don't hold water either, though I hate to disappoint you on this too, since they presuppose a highly efficient and skilled government at work when in fact no such thing currently exists on this planet. > Then again as I BCC Lynne for the last time on this subject, > I must consider she is right. Because I have not heard this *just* > from her, "the aging BSD mafia...prefer to sit in their towers > reliving past intrigues and battles. The have become anachronism > in an Internet World." Tell Lynne to come out of hiding someday and perhaps she can start talking with more credibility about "sitting around in towers reliving past intrigues and battles." :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:17:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ACF37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup675.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.163]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f43JGEO26773; Thu, 3 May 2001 21:16:14 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105031853.LAA12484@dnull.com> References: <200105031853.LAA12484@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:16:04 +0200 To: jessemonroy@email.com, jkh@osd.bsdi.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jessem@livecam.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:53 AM -0700 5/3/01, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > charter-smarter... the point is everyone within the FreeBSD community > should be aware of this situation. I'm sure they probably are. > If anything, this is a rally > call for BSDers. If it is, then I suspect that the majority of them will be aware of the charters of the various mailing lists, and will use them appropriately -- unlike what you appear to have done. > I'm upset because there are people within > the community that are fully willing to help, be involved and > spend their *own* money to see this through. As such, -hackers (et al.) > should know this to be the case. There are plenty of people in the community who are not on the -hackers mailing list. Indeed, I suspect that the vast majority of them are not on the -hackers mailing list. I've been involved peripherally with FreeBSD for a while now, and as bold and uncouth as I have a reputation of being (which can be verified by friend and foe alike), even I have never had the temerity to even look at the -hackers mailing list, much less ever post anything there. No, the -hackers mailing list is primarily the province of people with deep knowledge of FreeBSD in general and various aspects of the kernel, etc... in particular. Seventeen years of experience on the 'net have taught me that one does not lightly interfere in the matters of Wizards, Gurus, and Dragons -- unless one appreciates the taste of global thermonuclear war being set off in their gizzard. You would be wise to learn this lesson at a much earlier point in your life, as doing so would hopefully help you to avoid making some of the mistakes I have made in the past. > Emailing you privately has prove to be less than useful. I have certainly had my own disagreements with Jordan, and I would normally be one of the last to stand up in his defense. However, the simple fact of the matter is that you are being rude, crude, socially unnacceptable (even within this typically socially-challenged community), and generally making enough of an ass of yourself to annoy me to the point where I am taking his side over yours. That takes quite some doing. Mistakes happen, get over it. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:39: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C12E37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott.mitchell@mail.com) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.151.33]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010503193855.UVJO285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:38:55 +0100 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22017; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:39:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20010503203939.37358@localhost> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:39:39 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: Andrew Atrens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -- recursive make considered harmful ?? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Atrens on Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:58:22PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:58:22PM -0400, Andrew Atrens wrote: > > Any considered opinions on this ? > > http://www.pcug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html > > I've set up a freebsd-style make system for our project which is blazingly > fast on freebsd (and solaris), but sucks lemons on NT (mostly because of > Cygwin fork+exec). > > Anyhow I've taken a lot of heat as a result of this paper, from people who > are more talk and less action than myself. I used this approach on my last project, which had to deal with Java, C++ and CORBA code in a reasonably coherent way. It worked pretty well, despite Java and make not getting along too well (many Java compilers like to do their own dependency checking, and build things other than the classes you explicitly asked them to). Certainly better than the previous ad-hoc collection of makefiles where the build procedure was essentially 'run make repeadedly until it doesn't build anything else' :-) Of course this was only a few tens of thousands of lines (not quite in Terry's league let!); I have no real feel for how well this technique scales to really large projects. Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:39:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C3137B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12912; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:38:58 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503120544M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> charter-smarter... the point is everyone within the FreeBSD community >> should be aware of this situation. > > You don't get to make that call, Jesus. The charters are there for a > reason, most notably the fact that some people (hi) seem to think that > the rules only apply if they don't personally feel a really strong > need to break them. That's not what rules are about and it's > specifically to curb the tendency towards "individualistic > interpretation" that they exist. Bad Jesus, no biscuit for this > round. > Biscuit? Your spending too much time in irc. Yak... let's stick to busines. Please drop this. >> Per Windriver, the announcement on April 4, 2001 clearly >> states in the second headline, "Agreement Ensures Continued >> Support of Open Source FreeBSD Project." In plain english, >> this should mean we can continue to develop as we have >> in the past and when Windriver has a course change we >> will listen. > > Well, WindRiver has no "course changes" in mind at this point and > aren't even actively engaged yet. Go talk to any of the BSDi > employees in engineering and you'll find that all of them STILL WORK > FOR BSDi and that the deal is still very much "in progress" at this > time. > Funny thing is I already know of this. > What you read back in early April was a press release stating an > INTENT to do all of these things, and if you were at all familiar with > the bigger deals like this one, you'd know that months can often pass > between the time where everyone states an intention to do something > and when the lawyers finally finish looking through all the paperwork > and sign off on actually doing it. Only someone very naive' about how > businesses work would actually expect that a full take-over has > occurred in less than a month and that we're all now marching to the > beat of a different drummer. Ha! > Okay, I'll take this as a fact. And pass this as your word on the subject. > That's also why at least 99% of the government conspiracy theories > don't hold water either, though I hate to disappoint you on this too, > since they presuppose a highly efficient and skilled government at > work when in fact no such thing currently exists on this planet. > Please stop this line. >> Then again as I BCC Lynne for the last time on this subject, >> I must consider she is right. Because I have not heard this *just* >> from her, "the aging BSD mafia...prefer to sit in their towers >> reliving past intrigues and battles. The have become anachronism >> in an Internet World." > > Tell Lynne to come out of hiding someday and perhaps she can start > talking with more credibility about "sitting around in towers reliving > past intrigues and battles." :-) > Tit for tat. Okay, let's get to brass tacks. 1) Word is already out that the domain freesoftware.com has been sold. Can you confirm this? 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. 3) Speculation that the machine (aka ftp.freesoftware.com) was lost because it never really belonged to FreeBSD. Therefore, this recent ftp failure was not only a knee-jerk reaction to "unplanned resource" problems, but because serious loses of equipment. To quote you, "ftp.freesoftware.com (AKA the old ftp.freebsd.org) is off the net for now and there is unfortunately no ETA for its return." From this message, one can only decearn that the 3000 limit user machine has been relieve of duty for reasons one cannot speculate on. In place, we get 6 - 100 limit user machines, that are housed at a Baby Bell. For as you know, BSD was liberate at some cost for a BELL company. Speculation on this line follows from both the old guard and those familiar with the original situation. Add to this, rumors that some Windriver executive are not in favor of Open Source. Well, I think you're getting the picture. There is more. However, leading to all this is no information. We ask for information, we get ignored. We ask people close to the team, they don't know. We call on old resources, no information is available. Is this sounding familiar? Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:45: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFE237B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1CC24239A6E; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:45:05 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: jessem@livecam.com Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] Message-ID: <20010503124505.C12199@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20010503120544M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6zdv2QT/q3FMhpsV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com>; from jessem@livecam.com on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:38:58PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6zdv2QT/q3FMhpsV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2001-05-03 12:38 -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: >=20 > 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. I can't imagine the state of mental derangement that it would take for you to post this, let alone to actually believe it. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Only two things are infinite, the mailto:gsutter@zer0.org universe and human stupidity, and I'm http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ not sure about the former. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD - Albert Einstein --6zdv2QT/q3FMhpsV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE68bVBIBUx1YRd/t0RAimMAJ94lFiivV+2ug3NUjY23mTORw1EugCcDD4c E3SpVSLBkCsEGSemS23A8Nc= =Wyo3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6zdv2QT/q3FMhpsV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:46:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6257E37B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A8E6567B85; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:46:54 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: jessemonroy@email.com Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] Message-ID: <20010503124654.A9568@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010503120544M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DocE+STaALJfprDB" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com>; from jessem@livecam.com on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:38:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:38:58PM -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. HahahahahaAHAHAA! Good one, you twonk. Kris P.S. Rumour is that if you peel off the stickers on the forthcoming 4.3 release you'll see it's nothing but a rebadged 2.0.5. --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE68bWuWry0BWjoQKURAkl9AJ4z1V/rg3zP0xvsCjp2k0CU7Ty9TgCaAw7D iJNTLjngQlO95lnUCamEbN0= =QRBp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DocE+STaALJfprDB-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:53:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3492537B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13048; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:53:34 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: gsutter@zer0.org Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503124505.C12199@klapaucius.zer0.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 May, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2001-05-03 12:38 -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: >> >> 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to >> generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. > > I can't imagine the state of mental derangement that it would > take for you to post this, let alone to actually believe it. > Look, I don't make this shit up. So, you guys get real or cut the shit. Cause I've got a company to run and I really don't have time for this crap. If you have a comment with some serious material, then make it. But please stop the rhetoric about mental states, I'm really not inclined to follow this track. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 12:57:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9ED37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:57:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f43JvZA07074; Fri, 4 May 2001 07:57:36 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:57:35 +1200 (NZST) From: Dan Langille X-Sender: dan@lists.unixathome.org To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <20010503124654.A9568@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:38:58PM -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > > > 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > > generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. Speculation also exists that I'm actually a dog, was an astronaut in the Apollo 11 mission, and have given birth to 17 children, all in one labour. > P.S. Rumour is that if you peel off the stickers on the forthcoming > 4.3 release you'll see it's nothing but a rebadged 2.0.5. Kris: you have broken the silent vows. Expect a knock on the door... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13: 2:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733DE37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43K29346901; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com> References: <20010503120544M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105031939.MAA12912@dnull.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010503130209T.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:02:09 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 49 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Funny thing is I already know of this. Then you have no excuse for such ridiculous chains of innuendo involving them. I often have to wonder at what your genuine motives are. > Please stop this line. That's not very good grammar, but I'll take it to mean that you would like an end to conspiracy theories. That would be great, and an item high on my own wish list. > 1) Word is already out that the domain freesoftware.com has been > sold. Can you confirm this? I can confirm that whomever's telling you this is completely uninformed. We've never even raised the question of selling it, much less having sold it, so there must be a new flavor of crack on the street or someone is going out of their way to start malicious rumors. > 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. Speculation also exists that you may be a space alien yourself and are intent on taking over this planet by first befuddling the dominant species so much with your theories that they become unable to defend themselves. Such speculation would probably not have much to do with the truth, however, and it earns you little dignity to even bring up an accusation this lame. Anyone who's even remotely capable of reading release notes or following the commit logs can see that FreeBSD is making a lot of changes to their software and show no signs of slowing down. Conversely, people can also expect that aliens capable of crossing interstellar space would be smart enough to simply stomp the planet flat in 10 minutes with advanced weaponry and wouldn't need you to walk point for the invasion force. QED. > 3) Speculation that the machine (aka ftp.freesoftware.com) was > lost because it never really belonged to FreeBSD. See above. The machine is still sitting right where it used to be (well, last I checked, the crime rate being rather high in New York) and all it suffers from is a lack of bandwidth, which I've already explained. Anyway, I think I've debunked enough insane rumors for one day. I'm going to lunch at my favorite chinese restaurant. I hear the poodle chow mein they're serving today is especially good! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13: 3:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9105237B43C for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43K32346919; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com Cc: gsutter@zer0.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> References: <20010503124505.C12199@klapaucius.zer0.org> <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010503130302T.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:03:02 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Look, I don't make this shit up. So, you guys get real or > cut the shit. Cause I've got a company to run and I really > don't have time for this crap. HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA. That was pretty good, Jesus! You're getting better that this "humor" stuff! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13: 8: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DD937B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01923; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:07:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:07:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Dennis Reiter , Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20010503115435.A8662@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 01:50:44PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Dennis Reiter wrote: > > > > > And I missed it by moments: > > > > > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00679.JPG > > > > > > much to my Slackware using friend's delight: > > > > > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00678.JPG > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > While amateurish, the rest of the pix aren't bad, either. > > > > The links aren't working. Maybe freebsd-chat has generated too much > > traffic for them. :-) > > Maybe they've been moved some time in the past 15 months :-) Uhm... Heh... Looking at the date of the original message, you're most likely right. I just got this message in my inbox shortly before I replied to it, though. I didn't bother looking at the date, since obviously since it just arrived it was it was a new message, right? :-) Its was either some seriously delayed mail, or a brain-fart on my part. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13:28:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29FD37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13369; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105032028.NAA13369@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:28:18 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503130209T.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> Funny thing is I already know of this. > > Then you have no excuse for such ridiculous chains of innuendo > involving them. I often have to wonder at what your genuine motives > are. > I don't appreciate your over trimming in your reponses. Please discontinue. >> Please stop this line. > > That's not very good grammar, but I'll take it to mean that you would > like an end to conspiracy theories. That would be great, and an item > high on my own wish list. > The grammer is fine. Please read the dictionary. >> 1) Word is already out that the domain freesoftware.com has been >> sold. Can you confirm this? > > I can confirm that whomever's telling you this is completely > uninformed. We've never even raised the question of selling it, much > less having sold it, so there must be a new flavor of crack on the > street or someone is going out of their way to start malicious rumors. > I'll follow up on this. But perhaps what is the *new* relationship between freesoftware.com and freebds.org. >> 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to >> generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. > > Speculation also exists that you may be a space alien yourself and are > intent on taking over this planet by first befuddling the dominant > species so much with your theories that they become unable to defend > themselves. Such speculation would probably not have much to do with > the truth, however, and it earns you little dignity to even bring up > an accusation this lame. Anyone who's even remotely capable of > reading release notes or following the commit logs can see that > FreeBSD is making a lot of changes to their software and show no signs > of slowing down. Conversely, people can also expect that aliens > capable of crossing interstellar space would be smart enough to simply > stomp the planet flat in 10 minutes with advanced weaponry and > wouldn't need you to walk point for the invasion force. QED. > Look, If you don't want to answer this questions in a serious manner, then I'll refrain from asking. But, these speculations continue because information is not forth coming. You're only shooting the messager at this point. >> 3) Speculation that the machine (aka ftp.freesoftware.com) was >> lost because it never really belonged to FreeBSD. > > See above. The machine is still sitting right where it used to be > (well, last I checked, the crime rate being rather high in New York) > and all it suffers from is a lack of bandwidth, which I've already > explained. > No, you haven't. One message says, "there is unfortunately no ETA for its return." Another message says, "A machine to server as the project's "master FTP host" has been procured will shortly be available for FTP access". Well, 'procure' in this man's english means you bought or were give a new machine. This implies the "old ftp.freebsd.org" is gone. So, as you can see, I'm not making this up. These are your words, and your words alone. They don't fit into any pattern assoicated with logical sense. So, how can you expect any reasonal person to NOT suspect something is up. Add to this your enflamed comments and you've spelt your own message. > Anyway, I think I've debunked enough insane rumors for one day. I'm > going to lunch at my favorite chinese restaurant. I hear the poodle > chow mein they're serving today is especially good! > I'm hungry too. In-n-Out is close by. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13:34:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FEF737B505 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 29161 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2001 20:32:02 -0000 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:32:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: , , Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > From: jessem@livecam.com > Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) > > > At your request, I have moved this to hackers. > > You mean chat. Thank you. > > > Per your insistance, that this has nothing to do with hackers, is > > in my opinion Bull. > > Your opinion doesn't count for much in this case since it's clearly > not a -hackers issue. The freebsd-hackers mailing list, as is again > clearly outlined in the charter I pointed you to, is for technical > discussion. I simply cannot see how anyone with a reasonable command > of english could read into that a mandate for discussing the FTP site. > There's even a mailing list purely devoted to discussing that > infrastructure and it's called hubs@freebsd.org. > > > The pettyness that is rising *is* solely on your part. I have no > > agenda here other than that *that is good* for BSD and the businesses > > and jobs around BSD. > > What you evidently see as pettyness is my simply trying to keep the > mailing lists sane and comparatively focused on things other than > flamebait. > > You seem equally adept at generating flamebait and then attempting to > pass it off under the guise of "supporting the community" or "doing > what's good for BSD" and when people come back and call a spade a > spade, you evade the issue entirely by suggesting that identifying > flamebait as such constitutes a fear of your opinions or some other > such rubbish. Sorry, I don't buy it. > > > I urge you to stop the rhetoric NOW. I urge you to respond, as > > we would expect a BSDer to respond when dealing with issues > > of a professional nature. > > I have already responded, in just over 5000 words, to freebsd-announce > as a BSDer. The fact that you then chose to regard that as a cover-up > for some reason is your own doing and not something I can even > genuinely respond to since I think the only response which would > satisfy you at this point would be something to the effect of: > > OK Jesus, you're right, you caught us. This has all been a highly > orchestrated plot between Wind River and Microsoft, who are secretly > in collusion and actually the same company, to wipe out a promising > young operating system effort and acquire its developers for pennies > on the dollar. They figured that after they got us all turned out on > the streets and forced to sell our bodies and various internal organs > for food, they could acquire us cheap and get us to sign the waiver > form that allows the Visual Basic brain implants. Then we'd simply > turn into Borg-like zombies who wrote Visual Basic all day long > without complaint and nothing other than an occasionally mumbled > "ActiveX controls are good!" escaping from our lips. > > Ah Jesus, I quail before your mighty insight! Well put. VERY well put. Will you be my deity? -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13:39:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E3AA37B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 10494 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2001 20:36:56 -0000 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:36:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Cc: , , Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you "don't have time for this" then how come you decided to start this thread, etc. I'm guessing you 1) Like the attention 2) Like the attention 3) Actually, I think 1) and 2) cover this fairly well. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org On Thu, 3 May 2001 jessem@livecam.com wrote: > On 3 May, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On 2001-05-03 12:38 -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > >> > >> 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > >> generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. > > > > I can't imagine the state of mental derangement that it would > > take for you to post this, let alone to actually believe it. > > > Look, I don't make this shit up. So, you guys get real or > cut the shit. Cause I've got a company to run and I really > don't have time for this crap. > > If you have a comment with some serious material, then make it. > But please stop the rhetoric about mental states, I'm really > not inclined to follow this track. > > Best Regards, > Jessem. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 13:45:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 959C337B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 25074 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2001 20:43:11 -0000 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Cc: , Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105032028.NAA13369@dnull.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001 jessem@livecam.com wrote: > On 3 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > >> Please stop this line. > > > > That's not very good grammar, but I'll take it to mean that you would > > like an end to conspiracy theories. That would be great, and an item > > high on my own wish list. > > > The grammer is fine. Please read the dictionary. Can I read the dictionary for him? I've got a few weeks to spare. If you can supply me with the new flavor of crack Jordan's been talking about, I might even be able to have it done by the end of this weekend. Of course, I can only make said deal under one condition: You have to read the encyclopedia as well. > > >> 1) Word is already out that the domain freesoftware.com has been > >> sold. Can you confirm this? > > > > I can confirm that whomever's telling you this is completely > > uninformed. We've never even raised the question of selling it, much > > less having sold it, so there must be a new flavor of crack on the > > street or someone is going out of their way to start malicious rumors. > > > I'll follow up on this. But perhaps what is the *new* relationship > between freesoftware.com and freebds.org. You left off the 'm' in freebdsm.org > > Best Regards, > Jessem. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 14: 2:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D90537B619 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from denny@reiters.org) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A4E03D625; Thu, 3 May 2001 16:02:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:02:07 -0500 From: Dennis Reiter To: Chris Dillon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20010503160207.A87458@reiters.org> References: <20000205182137.I70413@reiters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: ; from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 01:50:44PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Chris Dillon (cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us): > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Dennis Reiter wrote: > > > > > http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00678.JPG > > > > While amateurish, the rest of the pix aren't bad, either. > > The links aren't working. Maybe freebsd-chat has generated too much > traffic for them. :-) > Hmm, not my server. I'll see if I can get the owner to fix it. -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Madison River Communications | reiterd@madisonriver.net www.scapegoats.org Can I trade this job for what's behind door #2? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 14: 6:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD9737B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup675.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.163]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f43L6H104607; Thu, 3 May 2001 23:06:18 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> References: <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:06:03 +0200 To: jessemonroy@email.com, gsutter@zer0.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jessem@livecam.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:53 PM -0700 5/3/01, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > Look, I don't make this shit up. So, you guys get real or > cut the shit. Cause I've got a company to run and I really > don't have time for this crap. You sure have a very funny way of showing it. If this last sentence really is true, then I would request that you *PLEASE* get back to running said company, and let the other people on the FreeBSD -chat mailing list get back to more interesting/valid topics of conversation, such as whether or not Richard Stallman really is now claiming authorship of Linux, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 14:11:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A65437B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:11:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43LAYG79026; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200105032028.NAA13369@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: jessem@livecam.com Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.or Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, jkh@osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-May-01 jessem@livecam.com wrote: >>> Please stop this line. >> >> That's not very good grammar, but I'll take it to mean that you would >> like an end to conspiracy theories. That would be great, and an item >> high on my own wish list. >> > The grammer is fine. Please read the dictionary. Err, it's "grammar", and I don't quite parse your original sentence very well either. I guess it's techincally valid, but "line" is rather vague in its meaning. >> uninformed. We've never even raised the question of selling it, much >> less having sold it, so there must be a new flavor of crack on the >> street or someone is going out of their way to start malicious rumors. >> > I'll follow up on this. But perhaps what is the *new* relationship > between freesoftware.com and freebds.org. freebds.org? :) Hehehe. AFAIK, ftp.freesoftware.com was never related to freebsd.org except that it provided the primary ftp site. freesoftware.com was an asset of BSDi/WC and soon-to-be WRS. >>> 3) Speculation that the machine (aka ftp.freesoftware.com) was >>> lost because it never really belonged to FreeBSD. >> >> See above. The machine is still sitting right where it used to be >> (well, last I checked, the crime rate being rather high in New York) >> and all it suffers from is a lack of bandwidth, which I've already >> explained. >> > No, you haven't. > > One message says, "there is unfortunately no ETA for its return." > > Another message says, "A machine to server as the project's > "master FTP host" has been procured will shortly be available > for FTP access". > > Well, 'procure' in this man's english means you bought or > were give a new machine. This implies the "old ftp.freebsd.org" > is gone. Bzzzt. Wrong. You are assuming that the new machine replaces the old one. (You've hold that old rhyme about assuming things before haven't you?) The old machine is not a replacement for ftp.freesoftware.com. It is a new machine with new functionality. ftp-master.freebsd.org will be like cvsup-master.freebsd.org. When cvsup-master.freebsd.org was built all the cvusp servers didn't drop off the face of the earth did they? Come on. _Think_ a little. Use that noggin. Really, for once assume we aren't all out to get you and that the sky isn't falling and then look at things. *sigh* -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 14:32:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122B437B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup675.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.163]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f43LWB102645; Thu, 3 May 2001 23:32:11 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105032028.NAA13369@dnull.com> References: <200105032028.NAA13369@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:29:19 +0200 To: jessemonroy@email.com, jkh@osd.bsdi.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jessem@livecam.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:28 PM -0700 5/3/01, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > I don't appreciate your over trimming in your reponses. > Please discontinue. Holy $DEITY, I'm about to defend Jordan a second time. I can't believe it, either. Jesse, you might want to wake up and smell the FAQs. Proper trimming of quotes has been what we like to call "netiquette" for as long as I've been on the 'net, and regardless of anything else Jordan may or may not have done, he's certainly applying those rules correctly. Note that "Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette" hasn't changed since 13 May 1995, "A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community" hasn't changed since 23 Sep 1996, and "Hints on writing style for Usenet" hasn't changed since 29 Sep 1997. Jordan appears to have naturally internalized and followed most of these rules (except where your posts have driven him over the edge), and you very clearly have *NOT*. While these FAQs are oriented towards USENET news, they are generally also applicable to Internet e-mail. I would strongly encourage you to re-read them, or more likely, read them for the first time. > The grammer is fine. Please read the dictionary. Oh, great. Now we get into spelling and grammar flames. Sigh.... > Look, If you don't want to answer this questions in a serious > manner, then I'll refrain from asking. But, these speculations > continue because information is not forth coming. You're only > shooting the messager at this point. Uh, no. The answers have already been provided, a long time back. You're just not willing or capable of understanding what has been said. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 14:42:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C4C37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA20606; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:40:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA.5aW1N; Thu May 3 14:40:05 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA02712; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:46:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:45:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at May 03, 2001 11:21:39 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't appreciate the mini-flame-fest, and I don't appreciate this being moved from -hackers, and turned into a mailing list version of The Jerry Springer Show. It feels very much like an attempt to bury legitimate, and, admittedly, _very poorly_ voiced concerns, under a hail of noise. Here is my opinion. I think that there is some legitimate concern over the, to all appearances, unheralded demise of ftp.freebsd.org. I also believe that this is a legitimate topic for -hackers, since code which can not be obtained, can not be the subject of active developement. As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected it to be. It's also extremely alarming to find out that the official mirrors have mirrored the disappearance. I personally only found out as a result of attempting to build a release locally, only to have it fail to retrieve two of the 35 ports distribution files needed to perform that operation. When this happened, it seriously underscored the degree to which the FreeBSD project depends on good faith effort by agencies not under the projects direct control (as Linux depends on the good faith and continued existance of Linus and those lieutenants who hold the keys to the non-repository maintained source tree). In the process, which was the creation of an internal release, not a competing release, I found a number of other issues which would preclude someone else from taking up the banner of FreeBSD CDROM creation, should California break off and sink into the ocean (or Jordan get hit by a bus or crucified by Jesus). I'm glad that it's been stated that one or two of the seven or so issues in the way of something like this are now in the process of being addressed; I've been following the -hubs list discussions, for example, with a close eye on the process. It is slow, but appears to be making some small headway. But there are a number of outstanding issues remaining sadly unaddressed, and they would most certainly shake the faith of anyone else basing a product or developement environment on an assumption that FreeBSD will always be around in the form it has been historically. It shook my faith, and I've been around and an advocate since day one. I wouldn't go to the heights of paranoia that I've seen in this thread, and elsewhere, in forums probably not frequented by the FreeBSD crowd. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that there are outstanding issues that remain to be addressed. I would like to see at least lip service being paid to a plan to address these issues quickly, and in the near future. Here is what outsiders have seen: Walnut Creek effectively sold FreeBSD to BSDI, in what appeared to many of us to be an arranged marriage. The Windriver acquisition feels more like a Mexican divorce, followed immediately by another arranged marriage with an older gentleman whom our parents have chosen for us on the theory that our judgement is suspect based on our previous failed marriage. It may be that FreeBSD has married for security, or that it will grow to love this new husband; either way, it's only natural that the bride be a little distrustful and circumspect, until she finds out for sure that she hasn't married a giant who grinds the bones of interlopers to make bread. For example, I think there is great uncertainty in the hearts of people who use FreeBSD in embedded systems whether or not the giant will appreciate the new bride having other male friends... this is evident in this thread, evident in other discussion I have seen (with and without my participation), and evident on the -small list and within the PicoBSD community. The situation with ftp.freebsd.org is unfortunate, as coincidence goes. It does not add to the trust. The lag in communication has also been unfortunate; contrary to the adage, "no news" is "very bad news indeed". The biggest and most important task is timely and adequate communication. Perhaps we can grant the benefit of the doubt, at least for a little while, so long as confidence in FreeBSD is not damaged as a result of granting it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 15:21:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB0B37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup675.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.163]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f43ML7O25303; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:21:07 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:20:29 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , jkh@osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:45 PM +0000 5/3/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think that there is some legitimate concern over the, to all > appearances, unheralded demise of ftp.freebsd.org. If there are legitimate concerns, I'd like to hear them discussed in a reasonably intelligent manner which does not involve name-calling and belittling (as we have recently witnessed). > I also believe that this is a legitimate topic for -hackers, > since code which can not be obtained, can not be the subject > of active developement. There I have to disagree. This subject is applicable to all of FreeBSD as it is to any one particular mailing list, and therefore the most suitable mailing list for this discussion is -chat. > As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off > and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a > distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected > it to be. Surely it's on the mirrors, yes? > It's also extremely alarming to find out that the official > mirrors have mirrored the disappearance. Really? This is the first I had heard of this. Could you elaborate? > I personally only found out as a result of attempting to build > a release locally, only to have it fail to retrieve two of the > 35 ports distribution files needed to perform that operation. > > When this happened, it seriously underscored the degree to which > the FreeBSD project depends on good faith effort by agencies not > under the projects direct control (as Linux depends on the good > faith and continued existance of Linus and those lieutenants who > hold the keys to the non-repository maintained source tree). It would seem to me that this would be precisely the sort of thing that would be most resistant to having the central repository disappear (or otherwise be unavailable). Could you help me understand how this sort of thing could happen, and how the problem might be addressed? > But there are a number of outstanding issues remaining sadly > unaddressed, and they would most certainly shake the faith of > anyone else basing a product or developement environment on an > assumption that FreeBSD will always be around in the form it > has been historically. It shook my faith, and I've been around > and an advocate since day one. Could you fill us in on what these outstanding issues are? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 15:28:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4491E37B43C for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f43MRf347474; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:27:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> References: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010503152741H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:27:41 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 114 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Terry Lambert Subject: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:45:55 +0000 (GMT) > I don't appreciate the mini-flame-fest, and I don't appreciate > this being moved from -hackers, and turned into a mailing list > version of The Jerry Springer Show. It feels very much like > an attempt to bury legitimate, and, admittedly, _very poorly_ > voiced concerns, under a hail of noise. Well, you may not appreciate it but it still doesn't fit -hackers' charter and hence did not belong there. Had it started as a reasoned set of concerns as to whether or not ftpd itself was capable of handling the load, or discussing a new ftp load-balancing algorithm, then it would certainly have been -hackers material but it didn't even pretend to do that. It was more of a meta-discussion about the FreeBSD.org infrastructure itself, and www, hubs and announce are where those sorts of discussions occur. > I think that there is some legitimate concern over the, to all > appearances, unheralded demise of ftp.freebsd.org. Of course there is - do you think I and others involved have been turning handsprings over it all this time? Obviously not, and we've simply been focused on trying to FIX this problem by whatever means necessary all this time. Also keep in mind the fact that we've been somewhat starved for answers ourselves as to whether this was going to be a long term or (comparatively) short term problem. We've been hoping for the best and planning for the worst, and until I was more sure of the situation I wasn't comfortable in posting something that might only aggrevate the situation with the current hosting ISP. > When this happened, it seriously underscored the degree to which > the FreeBSD project depends on good faith effort by agencies not > under the projects direct control (as Linux depends on the good > faith and continued existance of Linus and those lieutenants who > hold the keys to the non-repository maintained source tree). I think I did cover this in my announcement, and we're certainly taking every step to ensure that we're not so firmly behind the 8 ball should this kind of thing happen again. > In the process, which was the creation of an internal release, > not a competing release, I found a number of other issues which > would preclude someone else from taking up the banner of FreeBSD > CDROM creation, should California break off and sink into the > ocean (or Jordan get hit by a bus or crucified by Jesus). You should probably state what those are rather than leaving your concerns so unspecifically stated. I'm sure that if I stopped producing and putting up ISO images, someone else would rapidly step into the fray since it's hardly rocket science to do so and there are a number of FTP sites who'd willingly host them. I think half a dozen different Linux distributions got started this way without anyone even needing to get hit by a bus, so the barriers to entry are probably lower than you imagine they are. > But there are a number of outstanding issues remaining sadly > unaddressed, and they would most certainly shake the faith of > anyone else basing a product or developement environment on an > assumption that FreeBSD will always be around in the form it > has been historically. It shook my faith, and I've been around > and an advocate since day one. Erm, like WHAT? It's not as if I didn't make an effort to point out that we've come face to face with some of our own infrastructural shortcomings and will be working to address them. What remains unaddressed that you think we could address within the limits of our current resource constraints? > On the other hand, it's pretty clear that there are outstanding > issues that remain to be addressed. I think you've made this point enough times that I can not be faulted for asking you to itemize them. :) > Here is what outsiders have seen: > > Walnut Creek effectively sold FreeBSD to BSDI, in what appeared > to many of us to be an arranged marriage. Wrong. Nobody has sold FreeBSD to anyone and if you'd listened to ANY of the Wind River *public* developer calls (which, even if you could not participate in real-time, were archived for some time afterwards at www.wrs.com) you'd have heard it stated over and over, by the most senior WRS management, as something which very definitely was not the case. Wind River has no illusions about buying an open source project, not that it could even if it wanted to, and you shouldn't either. > The Windriver acquisition feels more like a Mexican divorce, > followed immediately by another arranged marriage with an older > gentleman whom our parents have chosen for us on the theory that > our judgement is suspect based on our previous failed marriage. The FreeBSD Project has always been free to pick its own allies as it sees fit, and I'm sure saner heads in the community are simply watching WRS very closely right now to see whether, once consumated, it's a marriage of mutual convenience, a one-night stand or merely the unfortunate results of excessive alcohol consumption. I currently work for WRS (in advance of the BSDi deal going through) and even I don't know the answer to that question yet. I can guarantee you that I'll be watching with just as hawk-like a degree of attention as everybody else, however, and I would hope that everyone can keep their preconceptions either way to a minimum and just wait to see how things develop. To do anything else would be foolhardy at best. > The situation with ftp.freebsd.org is unfortunate, as coincidence > goes. It does not add to the trust. No, but it truly is just a coincidence and hence shouldn't be held against the prospective bride. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 15:39: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.34.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A914A37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mandric@EECS.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from EECS.Berkeley.EDU (mandric@argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.60.79]) by relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00697 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mandric@localhost) by EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15522 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: argus.EECS.Berkeley.EDU: mandric owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Milan Andric To: Subject: subscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe Milan EECS Web To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 15:46:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF7937B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14903; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105032247.PAA14903@dnull.com> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:46:35 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: SVBUG: Issues with ftp.freebd.org - tonight 2001-05-03 To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@osd.bsdi.com, sokol@livecam.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tonight at 7pm SVBUG meets as is usually does. I invite and welcome anyone in the SF Bay Area to our meeting. We meet at First and Trimble Road at the Carl's Jr. Details and maps are available at (http://www.svbug.com/) (lynx friendly) With regards to the Issues with ftp.freebsd.org, I would like to hear from people personally. If you think I'm nuts, come tell me to my face. If you agree with me, you may find other people at the meetings that agree also. In any case, there are 4 BSDs to support: FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and OS-X. There is lots of work to do and distraction by this one incident will not detour what we do. For anyone interested, tonight's topic, besides ftp,freebsd.org, is: How to setup Console Advanced Options. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 17:16:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C001E37B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7C1AD7575; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6389B1D95; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Modem Woes In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503114324.0459d260@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :At 11:34 AM 5/3/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: :>Note that Windows can "share" IRQs 4 and 3 (COM1: IRQ 4, :>COM2: IRQ 3, COM3: IRQ 4, COM4: IRQ 3) because it does not :>open both COM1: and COM3: or COM2: and COM4: simultaneously. :I've had comm ports that shared IRQs open simultaneously under :Windows. Yep, for about as long as it took to lock the machine up. Mouse on com1, modem on com3. Try it for fun. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 17:29:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFBC37B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D82F97575; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09581D95; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:29:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <20010503120544M.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: :> Then again as I BCC Lynne for the last time on this subject, :> I must consider she is right. Because I have not heard this *just* :> from her, "the aging BSD mafia...prefer to sit in their towers :> reliving past intrigues and battles. The have become anachronism :> in an Internet World." :Tell Lynne to come out of hiding someday and perhaps she can start :talking with more credibility about "sitting around in towers reliving :past intrigues and battles." :-) This is the same Lynne Jolitz who just so incredibly misunderstood and has all the answers if people would just listen? I've seen and read interviews with her and her husband. I suspect the word hubris has their pictures next to it in the dictionary. For them to accuse others of Ivory Tower myopia is quite rich indeed. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 17:37:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B02837B423 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 615237575; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7AE1D95; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:37:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: jessemonroy@email.com Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105032028.NAA13369@dnull.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001 jessem@livecam.com wrote: :On 3 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: :>> Please stop this line. :> That's not very good grammar, but I'll take it to mean that you would :> like an end to conspiracy theories. That would be great, and an item :> high on my own wish list. :> :The grammer is fine. Please read the dictionary. If I read the dictionary I will see that your spelling of grammar is wrong, but I would need a manual of style to confirm that you write like a six year old. Actually, I wouldn't as it's fairly obvious that you are only semi literate. Welcome to the written world where you are what you post, and you post like a half educated child. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 18:33:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6074137B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 18:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 101734 invoked by uid 0); 4 May 2001 01:33:36 -0000 Received: from cuscon3263.tstt.net.tt (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.214.39) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 4 May 2001 01:33:36 -0000 Message-ID: <3AF206E9.D29AB2E9@uwi.tt> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:33:29 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Modem Woes References: <200105031815.LAA29153@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Your post unnecessarily confused the issue. Realize that if the > person were not a rank newby, he would have posted his question > to -questions, where it belonged, instead of to -chat. Correct is right ..... original question re posted below ( for the -questions people ) And no one addressed the pnp issue I'm using a copy of FreeBSD 3.1 and an Aztec modem. Alas I have been struggling with my modem over the last couple of days. Every time I add the other two serial ports sio2 & sio3 and I look at the boot .. I see a not found messsage. However, I know its a fact that the modem is com4 in windows. Is it that I really really have to go do a custom kernel? If so do I just add the serial ports there or do I have to add pnp support in the kernel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 20:45:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD9337B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21852; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:37:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJKaOQQ; Thu May 3 20:37:38 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20041; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:49:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105040349.UAA20041@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:49:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010503152741H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at May 03, 2001 03:27:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think that there is some legitimate concern over the, to all > > appearances, unheralded demise of ftp.freebsd.org. > > Of course there is - do you think I and others involved have been > turning handsprings over it all this time? Clearly not; but Jesus is the first guy to stick his head up about it, even if he didn't do a very good job of it. > We've been > hoping for the best and planning for the worst, and until I was more > sure of the situation I wasn't comfortable in posting something that > might only aggrevate the situation with the current hosting ISP. I think this is the crux of things; if you had communicated that information, that way, I think the outage itself would have been a tempest in a teacup, and widely ignored while people concentrated on the other issues around making it unlikely to recur in the future. > > When this happened, it seriously underscored the degree to which > > the FreeBSD project depends on good faith effort by agencies not > > under the projects direct control (as Linux depends on the good > > faith and continued existance of Linus and those lieutenants who > > hold the keys to the non-repository maintained source tree). > > I think I did cover this in my announcement, and we're certainly > taking every step to ensure that we're not so firmly behind the 8 > ball should this kind of thing happen again. I think we all appreciate that. > > In the process, which was the creation of an internal release, > > not a competing release, I found a number of other issues which > > would preclude someone else from taking up the banner of FreeBSD > > CDROM creation, should California break off and sink into the > > ocean (or Jordan get hit by a bus or crucified by Jesus). > > You should probably state what those are rather than leaving your > concerns so unspecifically stated. I'm sure that if I stopped > producing and putting up ISO images, someone else would rapidly step > into the fray since it's hardly rocket science to do so and there are > a number of FTP sites who'd willingly host them. I think half a dozen > different Linux distributions got started this way without anyone even > needing to get hit by a bus, so the barriers to entry are probably > lower than you imagine they are. [1] The "tools" directory is one big issue. It's not self-hosted on FreeBSD, and the copyright on the executables isn't clear, so it's not really easy to tell if you could just copy them from the existing CDROM. Needing to copy them from the existing CDROM at all is a chicken-and-egg problem, since they are not stored in the repository. [2] The build process itself requires a number of files which have recently become unavailable; they are not all present on the mirrors, or the machines where their ports refer to them; the complete list is: bison-1.28.tar.gz jade-1.2.1.tar.gz db164.zip jade_1.2.1-13.diff.gz db164d.zip jpegsrc.v6b.tar.gz docbk241.tar.Z libpng-1.0.10.tar.gz docbk30.tar.Z libtool-1.3.4.tar.gz docbk31.zip links-0.95.tar.gz docbk40.zip linuxdoc-1.1.tar.gz docbk41.zip make-3.79.1.tar.gz eps2png-1.7.tar.gz mkisofs-1.13.tar.gz gdevcd8.tar.gz netpbm-9.12.tgz gdevdj9.c.gz pcl3-3.2.tar.gz gettext-0.10.35.tar.gz pdf_sec.ps ghostscript-6.50.tar.gz print-4.0.4.tar.gz ghostscript-fonts-other-6.0.tar.gz sgmlformat-1.7.tar.gz ghostscript-fonts-std-6.0.tar.gz tidy4aug00.tgz hpdj-2.6.tar.gz tiff-v3.5.5.tar.gz html-4.01.tar.gz unzip542.tar.gz isoENTS.zip In particular, the files "jade_1.2.1-13.diff.gz" and "pdf_sec.ps" are generally unavailable since the failure. The frustrating part of this is not that they can't be found (I eventually found them, although the diff had the wrong checksum on at least two sites); the frustrating part is that these are extremely version dependent, and aren't stored with the source tree, so the future availability of _ALL_ of them is as at risk as the two which were only locatable via an Altavista search, and then only on a "stealth mirror". [3] The build process is rather "CDROM as it is"-centric. This isn't as big an issue, but it does make it much less useful for anything but a distribution that is intended to be exactly like the Walnut Creek distribution. [4] The FreeBSD trademark is still controlled by someone other than the FreeBSD Foundation. I _did_ listen in on the conference call, but I didn't interrupt with a question about your justification for not transferring this to the foundation, sinceI didn't want to undermine the discussion. It turns out that I strongly disagree with your rationale for the non-transfer; it's impossible to point to even one instance where the trademark has needed defense, such that a legal entity with deep pockets needed to be the holder, and in the case that such a need did arise, donation of legal services to the foundation would be a tax writeoff, whereas coming out of Walnut Creek's / BSDIs / Windriver Systems' pocket, they would be a non-deductible expense. Right now, having the trademark not held by the project is a risk on the same order as losing the FTP site or losing the mailing list master, or losing the domain name (this latter is held by the project, but the project is not its own billing contact). -- This is not to be spiteful, but what would happen if the holders of these things suddenly became adversarial to the project? > > Here is what outsiders have seen: > > > > Walnut Creek effectively sold FreeBSD to BSDI, in what appeared > > to many of us to be an arranged marriage. > > Wrong. Nobody has sold FreeBSD to anyone and if you'd listened to ANY > of the Wind River *public* developer calls (which, even if you could > not participate in real-time, were archived for some time afterwards > at www.wrs.com) you'd have heard it stated over and over, by the most > senior WRS management, as something which very definitely was not the > case. Wind River has no illusions about buying an open source > project, not that it could even if it wanted to, and you shouldn't > either. I was on the calls, as a listener, participating in real-time, at a speaker phone with other people. As I mentioned above, the rationale for the non-transfer of the trademark was weak (IMO). I understand the logical arguments, but when critical project resources change hands, then the project has been defacto transferred, even if it has not been formally transferred. > > The Windriver acquisition feels more like a Mexican divorce, > > followed immediately by another arranged marriage with an older > > gentleman whom our parents have chosen for us on the theory that > > our judgement is suspect based on our previous failed marriage. > > The FreeBSD Project has always been free to pick its own allies as it > sees fit, and I'm sure saner heads in the community are simply > watching WRS very closely right now to see whether, once consumated, > it's a marriage of mutual convenience, a one-night stand or merely the > unfortunate results of excessive alcohol consumption. I currently > work for WRS (in advance of the BSDi deal going through) and even I > don't know the answer to that question yet. I can guarantee you that > I'll be watching with just as hawk-like a degree of attention as > everybody else, however, and I would hope that everyone can keep their > preconceptions either way to a minimum and just wait to see how things > develop. To do anything else would be foolhardy at best. I have the same hopes. I think the concerns stem primarily from the people who are using FreeBSD as an embedded systems platform, which is in direct competition with the Windriver Systems primary market. I'm actually aware of a huge number of companies doing this for their initial developement, and some are even in production, and are just not advertising the fact they are using FreeBSD. This concern is amplified by the recent problems with the PicoBSD builds, using 4.3-RELEASE. > > The situation with ftp.freebsd.org is unfortunate, as coincidence > > goes. It does not add to the trust. > > No, but it truly is just a coincidence and hence shouldn't be held > against the prospective bride. As I said, I agree that the community should extend the benfit of the doubt, rather than prejudging, but be prepared with the technical equivalent of "mad money" should things head South. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 21: 7:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594B637B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14180; Thu, 3 May 2001 21:07:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjza4NB; Thu May 3 21:07:35 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA20118; Thu, 3 May 2001 21:12:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105040412.VAA20118@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 04:12:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jkh@osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard), jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at May 04, 2001 12:20:29 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I also believe that this is a legitimate topic for -hackers, > > since code which can not be obtained, can not be the subject > > of active developement. > > There I have to disagree. This subject is applicable to all of > FreeBSD as it is to any one particular mailing list, and therefore > the most suitable mailing list for this discussion is -chat. Most people do not subscribe to chat. The most applicable mailing list is probably the one with the largest subscribership... > > As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off > > and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a > > distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected > > it to be. > > Surely it's on the mirrors, yes? No, it's not. > > It's also extremely alarming to find out that the official > > mirrors have mirrored the disappearance. > > Really? This is the first I had heard of this. Could you elaborate? See other posting. > > I personally only found out as a result of attempting to build > > a release locally, only to have it fail to retrieve two of the > > 35 ports distribution files needed to perform that operation. > > > > When this happened, it seriously underscored the degree to which > > the FreeBSD project depends on good faith effort by agencies not > > under the projects direct control (as Linux depends on the good > > faith and continued existance of Linus and those lieutenants who > > hold the keys to the non-repository maintained source tree). > > It would seem to me that this would be precisely the sort of > thing that would be most resistant to having the central repository > disappear (or otherwise be unavailable). Could you help me > understand how this sort of thing could happen, and how the problem > might be addressed? This has to do with programs -- with specific versions -- on which release tagged builds depend. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 22:14:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gateway.posi.net (c1096725-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.250.130.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F6A37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Received: from localhost (kbyanc@localhost) by gateway.posi.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f445EbB36141 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) X-Authentication-Warning: gateway.posi.net: kbyanc owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:14:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Yancey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: For sale: Sony VAIO PCG-505TR w/ FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE pre-installed Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got a Sony Vaio PCG-505TR super-slimline laptop that I am looking to sell. It is in very good, albeit used, condition and has FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE and XFree86 4.02 installed and configured. I am also including the Linksys PCMCIA 10/100 Ethernet card. The specs for the PCG-505TR are at: http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/products/archive/pc/notebook/pcg505tr.html The laptop includes both the regular and double-capacity batteries, the port replicator, external floppy disk drive, the AC adapter, and the pen stylus. However, I no longer have any of the original Windows 98 CDs, nor the accompanying booklets. Sound (ESS1879 chipset), networking (LinkSys 10/100 PCMCIA card), USB, and video (NeoMagic 128XD 1024x768) are all configured and working. The laptop includes an internal 56k modem (not a WinModem) that should work, however I have never tried it. Attached are the dmesg and XFree86 log file. I'm asking $1000 plus shipping or best offer. As anyone who is also subscribed to freebsd-mobile will recall, I listed this laptop on that mailing list a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, the only responses I received were from out of the country (in my case, outside of the U.S.). So I thought I would repost the laptop in freebsd-chat to reach a larger audience and so that I could note that I am unable to ship outside of the U.S. Please e-mail me directly if you have any questions. If you are interested and in the bay area, I can bring the laptop with me to next Thursday's BAFUG meeting for inspection. Thanks, Kelly -- Kelly Yancey - kbyanc@posi.net - Belmont, CA Lead Engineer, Backplane, Inc. http://www.backplane.com/ Maintainer, BSD Driver Database http://www.posi.net/freebsd/drivers/ Coordinator, Team FreeBSD http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ Copyright (c) 1992-2001 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE #2: Thu May 3 00:41:11 PDT 2001 root@vaio:/usr/src/sys/compile/VAIO Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: Pentium/P55C (quarter-micron) (298.42-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x582 Stepping = 2 Features=0x8001bf real memory = 67043328 (65472K bytes) avail memory = 62308352 (60848K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc02f2000. apm0: on motherboard apm: found APM BIOS v1.2, connected at v1.2 npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcib0: on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 isab0: at device 7.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0xfcd0-0xfcdf at device 7.1 on pci0 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 uhci0: port 0xfce0-0xfcff irq 9 at device 7.2 on pci0 usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered intpm0: port 0x2180-0x218f irq 9 at device 7.3 on pci0 intpm0: I/O mapped 2180 intpm0: intr IRQ 9 enabled revision 0 smbus0: on intsmb0 smb0: on smbus0 intpm0: PM I/O mapped 8000 pci0: at 8.0 irq 9 chip1: mem 0xfecffc00-0xfecffdff irq 9 at device 9.0 on pci0 pcic-pci0: at device 10.0 on pci0 fdc0: at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: model VersaPad, device ID 0 vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 sc0: on isa0 sc0: VGA <3 virtual consoles, flags=0x200> pcic0: at port 0x3e0 iomem 0xd0000 irq 10 on isa0 pcic0: management irq 10 pccard0: on pcic0 sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 16550A sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 sio1: type 16550A ppc0: parallel port not found. unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources sbc0: at port 0x220-0x22f,0x388-0x38b,0x320-0x321 irq 5 drq 1,5 on isa0 pcm0: on sbc0 unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources unknown: can't assign resources ad0: 6194MB [13424/15/63] at ata0-master UDMA33 Mounting root from ufs:/dev/ad0s1a pccard: card inserted, slot 0 ed0 at port 0x300-0x31f irq 11 slot 0 on pccard0 ed0: address 00:e0:98:07:49:f7, type Linksys (16 bit) XFree86 Version 4.0.2 / X Window System (protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6400) Release Date: 18 December 2000 If the server is older than 6-12 months, or if your card is newer than the above date, look for a newer version before reporting problems. (See http://www.XFree86.Org/FAQ) Operating System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386 [ELF] Module Loader present (==) Log file: "/var/log/XFree86.0.log", Time: Sun Apr 8 17:24:59 2001 (==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/XF86Config" Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (??) unknown. (==) ServerLayout "Simple Layout" (**) |-->Screen "Screen 1" (0) (**) | |-->Monitor "My Monitor" (**) | |-->Device "NeoMagic (laptop/notebook)" (**) |-->Input Device "Mouse1" (**) |-->Input Device "Keyboard1" (**) Option "AutoRepeat" "500 30" (**) Option "XkbRules" "xfree86" (**) XKB: rules: "xfree86" (**) Option "XkbModel" "pc101" (**) XKB: model: "pc101" (**) Option "XkbLayout" "us" (**) XKB: layout: "us" (**) FontPath set to "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/local/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/:unscaled,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/:unscaled,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/" (**) RgbPath set to "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" (**) ModulePath set to "/usr/X11R6/lib/modules" (II) xf86ReadBIOS(f8000, e80, Buf, 2)-> 05 8b bc f5... (--) Using syscons driver with X support (version 2.0) (--) using VT number 1 (II) Module ABI versions: XFree86 ANSI C Emulation: 0.1 XFree86 Video Driver: 0.3 XFree86 XInput driver : 0.1 XFree86 Server Extension : 0.1 XFree86 Font Renderer : 0.2 (II) Loader running on freebsd (II) LoadModule: "bitmap" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/fonts/libbitmap.a (II) Module bitmap: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 Module class: XFree86 Font Renderer ABI class: XFree86 Font Renderer, version 0.2 (II) Loading font Bitmap (II) LoadModule: "pcidata" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libpcidata.a (II) Module pcidata: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 0.1.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) PCI: Probing config type using method 1 (II) PCI: Config type is 1 (II) PCI: stages = 0x03, oldVal1 = 0x80003b54, mode1Res1 = 0x80000000 (II) PCI: PCI scan (all values are in hex) (II) PCI: 00:00:0: chip 8086,7100 card 0000,0000 rev 01 class 06,00,00 hdr 00 (II) PCI: 00:07:0: chip 8086,7110 card 0000,0000 rev 02 class 06,80,00 hdr 80 (II) PCI: 00:07:1: chip 8086,7111 card 0000,0000 rev 01 class 01,01,80 hdr 00 (II) PCI: 00:07:2: chip 8086,7112 card 0000,0000 rev 01 class 0c,03,00 hdr 00 (II) PCI: 00:07:3: chip 8086,7113 card 0000,0000 rev 02 class 06,80,00 hdr 00 (II) PCI: 00:08:0: chip 10c8,0004 card 104d,802f rev 01 class 03,00,00 hdr 00 (II) PCI: 00:09:0: chip 104d,8009 card 104d,8009 rev 01 class 0c,00,00 hdr 00 (II) PCI: 00:0a:0: chip 1180,0475 card 0000,0000 rev 00 class 06,07,00 hdr 02 (II) PCI: End of PCI scan (II) LoadModule: "scanpci" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libscanpci.a (II) Module scanpci: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 0.1.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) UnloadModule: "scanpci" (II) Unloading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libscanpci.a (II) Host-to-PCI bridge: (II) Bus 0: bridge is at (0:0:0), (-1,0,0), BCTRL: 0x00 (VGA_EN is cleared) (II) Bus 0 I/O range: [0] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0000ffff (0x10000) IX[B] (II) Bus 0 non-prefetchable memory range: [0] -1 0x00000000 - 0xffffffff (0x0) MX[B] (II) Bus 0 prefetchable memory range: [0] -1 0x00000000 - 0xffffffff (0x0) MX[B] (--) PCI:*(0:8:0) Neomagic NM2160 rev 1, Mem @ 0xfd000000/24, 0xfea00000/21, 0xfed00000/20 (II) Addressable bus resource ranges are [0] -1 0x00000000 - 0xffffffff (0x0) MX[B] [1] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0000ffff (0x10000) IX[B] (II) OS-reported resource ranges: [0] -1 0xffe00000 - 0xffffffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [1] -1 0x00100000 - 0x3fffffff (0x3ff00000) MX[B]E(B) [2] -1 0x000f0000 - 0x000fffff (0x10000) MX[B] [3] -1 0x000c0000 - 0x000effff (0x30000) MX[B] [4] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0009ffff (0xa0000) MX[B] [5] -1 0x00000000 - 0x000001ff (0x200) IX[B]E (II) Active PCI resource ranges: [0] -1 0xfecffc00 - 0xfecfffff (0x400) MX[B]E [1] -1 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B](B) [2] -1 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [3] -1 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B](B) [4] -1 0x0000fce0 - 0x0000fcff (0x20) IX[B]E [5] -1 0x0000fcd0 - 0x0000fcdf (0x10) IX[B]E (II) Active PCI resource ranges after removing overlaps: [0] -1 0xfecffc00 - 0xfecfffff (0x400) MX[B]E [1] -1 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B](B) [2] -1 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [3] -1 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B](B) [4] -1 0x0000fce0 - 0x0000fcff (0x20) IX[B]E [5] -1 0x0000fcd0 - 0x0000fcdf (0x10) IX[B]E (II) OS-reported resource ranges after removing overlaps with PCI: [0] -1 0xffe00000 - 0xffffffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [1] -1 0x00100000 - 0x3fffffff (0x3ff00000) MX[B]E(B) [2] -1 0x000f0000 - 0x000fffff (0x10000) MX[B] [3] -1 0x000c0000 - 0x000effff (0x30000) MX[B] [4] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0009ffff (0xa0000) MX[B] [5] -1 0x00000000 - 0x000001ff (0x200) IX[B]E (II) All system resource ranges: [0] -1 0xffe00000 - 0xffffffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [1] -1 0x00100000 - 0x3fffffff (0x3ff00000) MX[B]E(B) [2] -1 0x000f0000 - 0x000fffff (0x10000) MX[B] [3] -1 0x000c0000 - 0x000effff (0x30000) MX[B] [4] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0009ffff (0xa0000) MX[B] [5] -1 0xfecffc00 - 0xfecfffff (0x400) MX[B]E [6] -1 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B](B) [7] -1 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [8] -1 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B](B) [9] -1 0x00000000 - 0x000001ff (0x200) IX[B]E [10] -1 0x0000fce0 - 0x0000fcff (0x20) IX[B]E [11] -1 0x0000fcd0 - 0x0000fcdf (0x10) IX[B]E (II) LoadModule: "type1" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/fonts/libtype1.a (II) Module type1: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 Module class: XFree86 Font Renderer ABI class: XFree86 Font Renderer, version 0.2 (II) Loading font Type1 (II) Loading font CID (II) LoadModule: "freetype" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/fonts/libfreetype.a (II) Module freetype: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.1.8 Module class: XFree86 Font Renderer ABI class: XFree86 Font Renderer, version 0.2 (II) Loading font FreeType (II) LoadModule: "glx" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libglx.a (II) Module glx: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 Server Extension, version 0.1 (II) Loading extension GLX (II) Loading sub module "GLcore" (II) LoadModule: "GLcore" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libGLcore.a (II) Module GLcore: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 Server Extension, version 0.1 (II) LoadModule: "extmod" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libextmod.a (II) Module extmod: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 Module class: XFree86 Server Extension ABI class: XFree86 Server Extension, version 0.1 (II) Loading extension SHAPE (II) Loading extension MIT-SUNDRY-NONSTANDARD (II) Loading extension BIG-REQUESTS (II) Loading extension SYNC (II) Loading extension MIT-SCREEN-SAVER (II) Loading extension XC-MISC (II) Loading extension XFree86-VidModeExtension (II) Loading extension XFree86-Misc (II) Loading extension XFree86-DGA (II) Loading extension DPMS (II) Loading extension FontCache (II) Loading extension TOG-CUP (II) Loading extension Extended-Visual-Information (II) Loading extension XVideo (II) LoadModule: "extmod" (II) Reloading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/extensions/libextmod.a (II) Loading extension SHAPE (II) Loading extension MIT-SUNDRY-NONSTANDARD (II) Loading extension BIG-REQUESTS (II) Loading extension SYNC (II) Loading extension MIT-SCREEN-SAVER (II) Loading extension XC-MISC (II) Loading extension XFree86-VidModeExtension (II) Loading extension XFree86-Misc (II) Loading extension XFree86-DGA (II) Loading extension DPMS (II) Loading extension FontCache (II) Loading extension TOG-CUP (II) Loading extension Extended-Visual-Information (II) Loading extension XVideo (II) LoadModule: "neomagic" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/drivers/neomagic_drv.o (II) Module neomagic: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 Module class: XFree86 Video Driver ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) LoadModule: "mouse" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/input/mouse_drv.o (II) Module mouse: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 Module class: XFree86 XInput Driver ABI class: XFree86 XInput driver, version 0.1 (II) NEOMAGIC: Driver for Neomagic chipsets: neo2070, neo2090, neo2093, neo2097, neo2160, neo2200, neo2230, neo2360, neo2380 (II) Primary Device is: PCI 00:08:0 (--) Assigning device section with no busID to primary device (--) Chipset neo2160 found (II) resource ranges after xf86ClaimFixedResources() call: [0] -1 0xffe00000 - 0xffffffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [1] -1 0x00100000 - 0x3fffffff (0x3ff00000) MX[B]E(B) [2] -1 0x000f0000 - 0x000fffff (0x10000) MX[B] [3] -1 0x000c0000 - 0x000effff (0x30000) MX[B] [4] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0009ffff (0xa0000) MX[B] [5] -1 0xfecffc00 - 0xfecfffff (0x400) MX[B]E [6] -1 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B](B) [7] -1 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [8] -1 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B](B) [9] -1 0x00000000 - 0x000001ff (0x200) IX[B]E [10] -1 0x0000fce0 - 0x0000fcff (0x20) IX[B]E [11] -1 0x0000fcd0 - 0x0000fcdf (0x10) IX[B]E (II) resource ranges after probing: [0] -1 0xffe00000 - 0xffffffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [1] -1 0x00100000 - 0x3fffffff (0x3ff00000) MX[B]E(B) [2] -1 0x000f0000 - 0x000fffff (0x10000) MX[B] [3] -1 0x000c0000 - 0x000effff (0x30000) MX[B] [4] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0009ffff (0xa0000) MX[B] [5] -1 0xfecffc00 - 0xfecfffff (0x400) MX[B]E [6] -1 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B](B) [7] -1 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [8] -1 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B](B) [9] 0 0x000a0000 - 0x000affff (0x10000) MS[B] [10] 0 0x000b0000 - 0x000b7fff (0x8000) MS[B] [11] 0 0x000b8000 - 0x000bffff (0x8000) MS[B] [12] -1 0x00000000 - 0x000001ff (0x200) IX[B]E [13] -1 0x0000fce0 - 0x0000fcff (0x20) IX[B]E [14] -1 0x0000fcd0 - 0x0000fcdf (0x10) IX[B]E [15] 0 0x000003b0 - 0x000003bb (0xc) IS[B] [16] 0 0x000003c0 - 0x000003df (0x20) IS[B] (II) Setting vga for screen 0. (II) Loading sub module "vgahw" (II) LoadModule: "vgahw" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libvgahw.a (II) Module vgahw: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 0.1.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Chipset is a MagicGraph 128XD (NM2160) (--) NEOMAGIC(0): Panel is a 1024x768 color TFT display (II) Loading sub module "ddc" (II) LoadModule: "ddc" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libddc.a (II) Module ddc: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) Loading sub module "vbe" (II) LoadModule: "vbe" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libvbe.a (II) Module vbe: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) Loading sub module "int10" (II) LoadModule: "int10" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libint10.a (II) Module int10: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) NEOMAGIC(0): initializing int10 (II) xf86ReadBIOS(0, 0, Buf, 600)-> 53 ff 00 f0... (II) xf86ReadBIOS(c0000, 0, Buf, 10000)-> 55 aa 60 e9... (II) xf86ReadBIOS(d0000, 0, Buf, 10000)-> ff ff ff ff... (II) xf86ReadBIOS(e0000, 0, Buf, 10000)-> ff ff ff ff... (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Primary V_BIOS segment is: 0xc000 (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA BIOS detected (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE Version 2.0 (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE Total Mem: 1984 kB (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE OEM: MagicGraph 128XD 40K SVGA BIOS (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE OEM Software Rev: 1.23 (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE OEM Vendor: NeoMagic (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE OEM Product: MagicGraph 128XV (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE OEM Product Rev: 01.0 (II) Loading sub module "ddc" (II) LoadModule: "ddc" (II) Reloading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libddc.a (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE DDC supported (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE DDC Level none (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE DDC transfer in appr. 0 sec. (II) NEOMAGIC(0): VESA VBE DDC read failed (II) Loading sub module "i2c" (II) LoadModule: "i2c" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libi2c.a (II) Module i2c: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.2.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) NEOMAGIC(0): I2C bus "I2C bus" initialized. (II) NEOMAGIC(0): I2C device "I2C bus:ddc2" registered. (II) NEOMAGIC(0): I2C device "I2C bus:ddc2" removed. (--) NEOMAGIC(0): No DDC signal (**) NEOMAGIC(0): Depth 16, (--) framebuffer bpp 16 (==) NEOMAGIC(0): RGB weight 565 (==) NEOMAGIC(0): Default visual is TrueColor (==) NEOMAGIC(0): Using gamma correction (1.0, 1.0, 1.0) (**) NEOMAGIC(0): Option "linear" (--) NEOMAGIC(0): Internal LCD only display mode (==) NEOMAGIC(0): using linear mode (**) NEOMAGIC(0): using PCI Burst mode (--) NEOMAGIC(0): FB base address is set at 0xFD000000. (--) NEOMAGIC(0): MMIO base address is set at 0xFEA00000. (**) NEOMAGIC(0): VideoRAM: 2048 kByte (--) NEOMAGIC(0): Max Clock: 90000 kHz (II) NEOMAGIC(0): My Monitor: Using hsync range of 31.50-48.50 kHz (II) NEOMAGIC(0): My Monitor: Using vrefresh range of 55.00-100.00 Hz (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Clock range: 11.00 to 90.00 MHz (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Removing mode (640x350) that won't display properly on LCD (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "640x350" deleted (unknown reason) (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Removing mode (640x400) that won't display properly on LCD (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "640x400" deleted (unknown reason) (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Removing mode (720x400) that won't display properly on LCD (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "720x400" deleted (unknown reason) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "800x600" deleted (hsync out of range) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1024x768" deleted (bad mode clock/interlace/doublescan) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1024x768" deleted (hsync out of range) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1024x768" deleted (hsync out of range) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1024x768" deleted (bad mode clock/interlace/doublescan) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1152x864" deleted (width requires unsupported line pitch) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1280x960" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1280x960" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1280x1024" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1280x1024" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1280x1024" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1600x1200" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1600x1200" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1600x1200" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1600x1200" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1600x1200" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1792x1344" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1792x1344" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1856x1392" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1856x1392" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1920x1440" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1920x1440" deleted (insufficient memory for mode) (--) NEOMAGIC(0): Virtual size is 1024x768 (pitch 1024) (**) NEOMAGIC(0): Default mode "1024x768": 65.0 MHz, 48.4 kHz, 60.0 Hz (==) NEOMAGIC(0): DPI set to (75, 75) (II) Loading sub module "fb" (II) LoadModule: "fb" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libfb.a (II) Module fb: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 ANSI C Emulation, version 0.1 (II) Loading sub module "xaa" (II) LoadModule: "xaa" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libxaa.a (II) Module xaa: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) Loading sub module "ramdac" (II) LoadModule: "ramdac" (II) Loading /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/libramdac.a (II) Module ramdac: vendor="The XFree86 Project" compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 0.1.0 ABI class: XFree86 Video Driver, version 0.3 (II) do I need RAC? No, I don't. (II) resource ranges after preInit: [0] 0 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B] [1] 0 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B] [2] 0 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B] [3] -1 0xffe00000 - 0xffffffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [4] -1 0x00100000 - 0x3fffffff (0x3ff00000) MX[B]E(B) [5] -1 0x000f0000 - 0x000fffff (0x10000) MX[B] [6] -1 0x000c0000 - 0x000effff (0x30000) MX[B] [7] -1 0x00000000 - 0x0009ffff (0xa0000) MX[B] [8] -1 0xfecffc00 - 0xfecfffff (0x400) MX[B]E [9] -1 0xfed00000 - 0xfedfffff (0x100000) MX[B](B) [10] -1 0xfea00000 - 0xfebfffff (0x200000) MX[B](B) [11] -1 0xfd000000 - 0xfdffffff (0x1000000) MX[B](B) [12] 0 0x000a0000 - 0x000affff (0x10000) MS[B] [13] 0 0x000b0000 - 0x000b7fff (0x8000) MS[B] [14] 0 0x000b8000 - 0x000bffff (0x8000) MS[B] [15] -1 0x00000000 - 0x000001ff (0x200) IX[B]E [16] -1 0x0000fce0 - 0x0000fcff (0x20) IX[B]E [17] -1 0x0000fcd0 - 0x0000fcdf (0x10) IX[B]E [18] 0 0x000003b0 - 0x000003bb (0xc) IS[B] [19] 0 0x000003c0 - 0x000003df (0x20) IS[B] (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Stretching disabled (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Not programming shadow registers (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Using linear framebuffer at: 0xFD000000 (--) NEOMAGIC(0): 524288 bytes off-screen memory available (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Using H/W Cursor. (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Using 255 scanlines of offscreen memory for pixmap caching (**) NEOMAGIC(0): Option "XaaNoScanlineCPUToScreenColorExpandFill" (**) NEOMAGIC(0): Option "XaaNoScanlineImageWriteRect" (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Using XFree86 Acceleration Architecture (XAA) Screen to screen bit blits Solid filled rectangles Solid Horizontal and Vertical Lines Offscreen Pixmaps Setting up tile and stipple cache: 8 128x128 slots (II) NEOMAGIC(0): Acceleration Initialized (==) NEOMAGIC(0): Backing store disabled (==) NEOMAGIC(0): Silken mouse enabled (WW) NEOMAGIC(0): Option "hw_cursor" is not used (II) Setting vga for screen 0. (II) Initializing built-in extension MIT-SHM (II) Initializing built-in extension XInputExtension (II) Initializing built-in extension XTEST (II) Initializing built-in extension XKEYBOARD (II) Initializing built-in extension LBX (II) Initializing built-in extension XC-APPGROUP (II) Initializing built-in extension SECURITY (II) Initializing built-in extension XINERAMA (II) Initializing built-in extension XFree86-Bigfont (II) Initializing built-in extension RENDER (**) Option "Protocol" "PS/2" (**) Mouse1: Protocol: "PS/2" (**) Option "CorePointer" (**) Mouse1: Core Pointer (**) Option "Device" "/dev/psm0" (==) Mouse1: Buttons: 3 (**) Option "Emulate3Buttons" (**) Mouse1: Emulate3Buttons, Emulate3Timeout: 50 (**) Option "Resolution" "100" (**) Mouse1: Resolution: 100 (II) Keyboard "Keyboard1" handled by legacy driver (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Mouse1" (type: MOUSE) (WW) fcntl(7, F_SETOWN): Inappropriate ioctl for device To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 22:20:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D997F37B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f445KVw11415; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:20:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:20:31 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org Message-ID: <20010504002030.U25642@futuresouth.com> References: <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, May 04, 2001 at 12:20:29AM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Trim, trim, trim *hum* ] On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 12:20:29AM +0200, a little birdie told me that Brad Knowles remarked > At 9:45 PM +0000 5/3/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off > > and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a > > distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected > > it to be. > > Surely it's on the mirrors, yes? > > > It's also extremely alarming to find out that the official > > mirrors have mirrored the disappearance. > > Really? This is the first I had heard of this. Could you elaborate? As a matter of fact, this has hit me. CVSup isn't on what is now referred to as 'ftp.freebsd.org'. To install it from ports, I had to fiddle around and discover that it DOES exist on ftp2, and frob the Makefile. pkg_add would have likely required me to find and download the package file manually, or frob some arguments to it that I can never quite manage to understand. In this case, part of the problem was that CVSup's 'master site' is a subtree of the pub/FreeBSD tree in general, and partly because the only 'backup' is the distfiles/ repository (which, BTW, doesn't seem to exist with any consistency on that which is now referred to as ftp.freebsd.org). -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 22:27:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A15137B422 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8965D36; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:27:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:27:05 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010504002030.U25642@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 May 2001, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: :ftp2, and frob the Makefile. pkg_add would have likely required me to :find and download the package file manually, or frob some arguments to it :that I can never quite manage to understand. PACKAGESITE=ftp://ftp2.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-current/\ Latest/ pkg_add -r or something close, if you're not using -current, or i386. I do have to say that I figured out the option from the manpage, and the syntax with strings(1). strings(1) output is not very good documentation. David -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 3 22:31:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (props.e-u-a.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D58237B424 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 29898 invoked by uid 1000); 4 May 2001 05:29:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 01:29:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: David Scheidt Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Because of the change of machines, there are loads of broken links, which hinders the average user (who doesn't care about checking mirrors if a link is "broken"). That's my only concern. There should be a notice about it on the main page, or any absolute links to FTP sites should be changed to relative links or links to a CGI which chooses an appropriate FTP site, or can be changed in the www CVS as an external variable (so each file doesn't need changed) or something so when the site is co'd/export'd and mirrored, it points to current, working, known-good links. My AU$0.04 -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 0:34: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B0E37B424 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f447XU350480; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200105040349.UAA20041@usr06.primenet.com> References: <20010503152741H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200105040349.UAA20041@usr06.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010504003330A.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 00:33:30 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 70 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think this is the crux of things; if you had communicated > that information, that way, I think the outage itself would > have been a tempest in a teacup, and widely ignored while Perhaps, though I also can't help but notice that none of this occurred until *after* I posted something to announce. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" is a phrase which comes to mind. > [1] > The "tools" directory is one big issue. It's not self-hosted > on FreeBSD, and the copyright on the executables isn't clear, Actually, it's just a bunch of DOS stuff we've been copying around from CD to CD without any clear idea as to whether it's even useful anymore. The only piece which was software that can't be found elsewhere (as even the most cursory netsearch will reveal) is Walnut Creek CDROM's "view" program and we don't use that anymore at all. It can be deleted and the rest is just freeware from the Simtel and CICA archives. As to it not being "simple" to tell if it's redistributable, I'd have to disagree since there are READMEs which come with most of the stuff in there and, again, even a simple netsearch will show you that things like OSBS and fdwrite are freely available. Do a little legwork if the contents of tools are really that much of interest. > The build process itself requires a number of files which have > recently become unavailable; they are not all present on the This is only for the documentation build and you can easily turn it off, as the snapshot servers have done for a long time. Also, this is (again) a ports collection issue and should be taken up with the appropriate maintainers. > The build process is rather "CDROM as it is"-centric. This isn't Of course it is. It's aimed at doing one thing and one thing only. If you want something more general purpose, you know where your editor is. :) I would also argue that your recent KERNCONF submission is perhaps a micro step in the right direction but far from something which really tackles this issue. > The FreeBSD trademark is still controlled by someone other than > the FreeBSD Foundation. I _did_ listen in on the conference call, > but I didn't interrupt with a question about your justification > for not transferring this to the foundation, sinceI didn't want Well, this is certainly something we also agreed to try and address and nobody said it *wouldn't* be done, simply that it had to be done carefully. I also never said that there would be no transfer, just that it had to be transferred with a full and complete understanding of what that entailed. > This is not to be spiteful, but what would happen if the holders of > these things suddenly became adversarial to the project? We (core) already discussed that way back when the WC filing occurred. In the worst case, we simply change our name and the trademark holder is left holding an empty bag. A painful transition to be sure, but even the threat of doing that should generally be enough to avoid going to such an adversarial extreme. It's truly the project which holds the cards here, not some PTO registrant. > This concern is amplified by the recent problems with the PicoBSD > builds, using 4.3-RELEASE. Which has nothing to do with WindRiver. If the people doing PicoBSD wish to put more time into it, and I'm sure they'd welcome your own contributions, that remains entirely independent of this issue. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 6:13:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 86CE137B424 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 06:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 65597 invoked by uid 100); 4 May 2001 13:13:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:13:55 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Publishers attacks on public rights. X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone following the ongoing attacks from rapacious publishers on the publics rights might be interested in the article by Ann Bartow at . She's a professor in the University of South Carolina's School of Law, and examines the effects of those attacks on libraries, along with recommendations for responses to those attacks. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 7:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DC337B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 07:20:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from localhost (scottj@localhost) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA82111; Fri, 4 May 2001 07:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:20:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@pebkac.owp.csus.edu To: jessemonroy@email.com Cc: gsutter@zer0.org, jkh@osd.bsdi.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org A KA ftp.freesoftware.com] In-Reply-To: <200105031954.MAA13048@dnull.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 May 2001 jessem@livecam.com wrote: > On 3 May, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On 2001-05-03 12:38 -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > >> > >> 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > >> generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. > > > > I can't imagine the state of mental derangement that it would > > take for you to post this, let alone to actually believe it. > > > Look, I don't make this shit up. So, you guys get real or > cut the shit. Cause I've got a company to run and I really > don't have time for this crap. > > If you have a comment with some serious material, then make it. > But please stop the rhetoric about mental states, I'm really > not inclined to follow this track. At a high level, one can simply look at the release notes to determine what's changed. At a lower level, take a look at the cvs logs. Let me give your a for instance as to why your comment above is invalid. Not so long ago, my work place started purchasing dell poweredge 4400 servers to replace older servers. All of these systems came with what dell called the Perc 3/Di raid controller (which is rebranded, but that's another story). After doing some investigation at the time I found out that those raid controllers were not supported by FreeBSD. So NT went on them and life went on. More time went by and a I notice that Mike Smith gets support into -current for these raid controllers. My joy was great. More time goes on and I discover that these drivers have been MFC'd and will be in the new 4.3-RELEASE of FreeBSD. My joy was full. In my own little world at work, this alone would have been enough to make a release, if it was up to me. 4.2-R didn't contain these drivers, 4.3-R did. That's a big new feature in my book. My $0.02 in refuting your claim. -Joseph To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 8:22:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0544A37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21889; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:22:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:22:31 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think you're mischaracterizing the article here. It describes no actual attacks on libraries by "rapacious publishers" but merely mentions the extremes of what might, but has not, occurred. --Brett Glass At 07:13 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Anyone following the ongoing attacks from rapacious publishers on the >publics rights might be interested in the article by Ann Bartow at >. She's a >professor in the University of South Carolina's School of Law, and >examines the effects of those attacks on libraries, along with >recommendations for responses to those attacks. > > -- >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 8:29:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A3F2A37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 69122 invoked by uid 100); 4 May 2001 15:29:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15090.51940.766447.783398@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:29:40 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> References: <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > I think you're mischaracterizing the article here. It describes > no actual attacks on libraries by "rapacious publishers" but > merely mentions the extremes of what might, but has not, > occurred. Some of the examples have occured. You just need to look harder. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 8:40:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5D937B424 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22139; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:40:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:40:02 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15090.51940.766447.783398@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:29 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Some of the examples have occured. You just need to look harder. You are being alarmist. Yes, there are some practices that have been in place for many years to ensure that libraries do not destroy publishers' markets, but none of these have particularly escalated. In fact, we in America are BEHIND the curve in terms of rights enforcement. In Europe and elsewhere, royalties are collected from copy machines and distributed to authors. This is not done in the US. I strongly recommend Jessica Litman's book, which is mentioned in the paper. It has a much better sense of perspective than you've displayed here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 8:42: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB02237B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:42:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 69661 invoked by uid 100); 4 May 2001 15:42:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15090.52681.221237.710261@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:42:01 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 09:29 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Some of the examples have occured. You just need to look harder. > > You are being alarmist. No, I'm being realistic. Publishers doing ebooks are reserving providing licenses that disallow long-established practices. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 8:51:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC78237B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 69974 invoked by uid 100); 4 May 2001 15:51:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15090.53231.219185.256567@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:51:11 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 09:29 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Some of the examples have occured. You just need to look harder. > You are being alarmist. Considering that we're dealing with a group that has publicly stated policies of replacing fair use with a per-use charge and doing away with the doctrine of first sale, and has been pushing technological and legal tools to achieve those ends for the last quarter century, any alarm is certainly justified. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 9:31: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025EC37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:31:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1356"@[136.142.20.150]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K35ZLZJHF60103IH@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:30:58 EDT Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:15:17 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AF2D595.E5FA8FF3@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200105040412.VAA20118@usr06.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > ... > > Most people do not subscribe to chat. The most applicable > mailing list is probably the one with the largest subscribership... > I disagree ... what about those of us that are simply not interested in this stuff. It's so bothersome to just start deleting email...at least spam can be filtered. > > > As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off > > > and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a > > > distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected > > > it to be. > > > > Surely it's on the mirrors, yes? > > No, it's not. > Is CVS broken ?? People shouldn't complain so much for something that is provided for free... remember..the BSD license doesn't include "the right to ftp the software from my nearest repository". It was particularly ridiculous to see this Jesus Monroy "demanding" heads to roll. No way, please keep the clown in -chat. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 9:31: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BB437B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1357"@[136.142.20.150]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K35ZM1X9O2010896@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:31:01 EDT Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:33:14 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org AKA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: Jamie Bowden Cc: jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AF2D9CA.77829F1F@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, The 386BSD vol.1 book is available for about $10 in the Pitt library. I was going to buy it, but after checking out the contents I realized it was explaining some code that doesn't exist anymore. Many things have happened after 386BSD, the 4.4BSDlite and the related legal battle, and now the BSDi code donations ... that book is terribly irrelevant nowadays! The fact that 386BSD disappeared is not something good, but at least we now have a very live and democratic community around BSD and no Linus-like figures that dictate the "one true" way. I only know Mr. Monroy for his useless postings in the newgroups archives. Jesus, unique as you are, I regret to inform you that we didn't miss people like you on this lists. Pedro. Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Thu, 3 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > :> Then again as I BCC Lynne for the last time on this subject, > :> I must consider she is right. Because I have not heard this *just* > :> from her, "the aging BSD mafia...prefer to sit in their towers > :> reliving past intrigues and battles. The have become anachronism > :> in an Internet World." > > :Tell Lynne to come out of hiding someday and perhaps she can start > :talking with more credibility about "sitting around in towers reliving > :past intrigues and battles." :-) > > This is the same Lynne Jolitz who just so incredibly misunderstood and has > all the answers if people would just listen? I've seen and read > interviews with her and her husband. I suspect the word hubris has their > pictures next to it in the dictionary. For them to accuse others of Ivory > Tower myopia is quite rich indeed. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 10: 4:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9400F37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:04:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28534; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:02:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAu9ayH3; Fri May 4 10:02:23 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14636; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:04:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105041704.KAA14636@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: pfg1+@pitt.edu (Pedro F. Giffuni) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:04:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3AF2D595.E5FA8FF3@pitt.edu> from "Pedro F. Giffuni" at May 04, 2001 12:15:17 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Most people do not subscribe to chat. The most applicable > > mailing list is probably the one with the largest subscribership... > > I disagree ... what about those of us that are simply not interested > in this stuff. It's so bothersome to just start deleting email...at > least spam can be filtered. I'm not interested in anything at all regarding IDE; can you filter that from -hackers, too? Isn't hackers for talking about _technology_? IDE hardly qualifies... > > > > As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off > > > > and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a > > > > distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected > > > > it to be. > > > > > > Surely it's on the mirrors, yes? > > > > No, it's not. > > > Is CVS broken ?? No, the Makefiles in FreeBSD are broken. Since it's available from CVS, but not FTP, the Makefiles shouldn't use FTP, by your reasoning, right? In point of fact, the 35 ports necessary fro building a release are _NOT_ in FreeBSD's CVS. > People shouldn't complain so much for something that is provided for > free... remember..the BSD license doesn't include "the right to ftp > the software from my nearest repository". It was particularly > ridiculous to see this Jesus Monroy "demanding" heads to roll. No way, > please keep the clown in -chat. I didn't see him use that phrase. While I agree he failed to express himself well, the point that FreeBSD as a project is apparently fragile is well taken. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 10:29:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDAAF37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:29:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16334; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:29:40 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdh1Czya; Fri May 4 10:29:37 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15084; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:30:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105041730.KAA15084@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:30:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jessemonroy@email.com, jessem@livecam.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010504003330A.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at May 04, 2001 12:33:30 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ] > I think this is the crux of things; if you had communicated ] > that information, that way, I think the outage itself would ] > have been a tempest in a teacup, and widely ignored while ] ] Perhaps, though I also can't help but notice that none of this ] occurred until *after* I posted something to announce. "Damned if you ] do, damned if you don't" is a phrase which comes to mind. Not to argue the point, but I notices this 2 days before, was going to say something about it, but had more important things demanding my attention. I also got the SVBUG agenda announcement around a full 24 hours before your posting. People noticed the problem, and were talking about it non-openly well beforehand. ] > [1] ] > The "tools" directory is one big issue. It's not self-hosted ] > on FreeBSD, and the copyright on the executables isn't clear, ] ] Actually, it's just a bunch of DOS stuff we've been copying around ] from CD to CD without any clear idea as to whether it's even useful ] anymore. The only piece which was software that can't be found ] elsewhere (as even the most cursory netsearch will reveal) is Walnut ] Creek CDROM's "view" program and we don't use that anymore at all. It ] can be deleted and the rest is just freeware from the Simtel and CICA ] archives. As to it not being "simple" to tell if it's ] redistributable, I'd have to disagree since there are READMEs which ] come with most of the stuff in there and, again, even a simple ] netsearch will show you that things like OSBS and fdwrite are freely ] available. Do a little legwork if the contents of tools are really ] that much of interest. I think that the issue of compilation copyright, and wheher or not the executables themselves fall under performance copyright is the main sticking point. It may be that I'm permitted to just copy everything (except the "view" program) verbatim, but to be sure, I'd have to engage a lawyer, or just punt and fire up a DOS box and rebuild the binaries myself. The lack of self-hosting is just an annoying side issue. ] > The build process itself requires a number of files which have ] > recently become unavailable; they are not all present on the ] ] This is only for the documentation build and you can easily turn it ] off, as the snapshot servers have done for a long time. If I turn it off, then what I'm building is not a release. ] Also, this is (again) a ports collection issue and should be taken ] up with the appropriate maintainers. I still think this is a build issue, not a ports issue; it speaks to repeatability. You argue that the tools not building correctly is a ports issue; I'm arguing that even if the ports were corrected, there's no guarantee that the files needed to build them will persist over time. To put it another way, I think that if under-water archeologists salvage a PC with a CVS mirror on it 50 years from now, that it should be possible to "make release" on the thing, and have it work. I guess I'm asking that the build bits be archived with the rest of the FreeBSD sources, and pulled down as part of the process of mirroring a full source tree. ] > The build process is rather "CDROM as it is"-centric. This isn't ] ] Of course it is. It's aimed at doing one thing and one thing only. ] If you want something more general purpose, you know where your editor ] is. :) I would also argue that your recent KERNCONF submission is ] perhaps a micro step in the right direction but far from something ] which really tackles this issue. It certainly doesn't; but like most submissions, it's useful to me, and it's apparent that it's at least useful to 6 or so others, like NEWCARD, etc., which makes it 700% more useful than it is without the change. 8-). Ideally, I'd revamp the build so that a change to one file ended up doing the right thing, and rebuilding only dependent files, and then replace the entire install process, but I can't do that unless there's money in it for me (probably a lot of money), and I can find a drug that will replace sleeping... or it somehow ended up that it was my full time job, and I had free reign of terror over the tree for the transition. ] > This is not to be spiteful, but what would happen if the holders of ] > these things suddenly became adversarial to the project? ] ] We (core) already discussed that way back when the WC filing ] occurred. In the worst case, we simply change our name and the ] trademark holder is left holding an empty bag. A painful transition ] to be sure, but even the threat of doing that should generally be ] enough to avoid going to such an adversarial extreme. It's truly the ] project which holds the cards here, not some PTO registrant. I was more worried about what happens if the legal entity holding the thing dissolves without assigning it to the project, and what happens to the project. Clearly there's always the "change the name" option, but that seems to have been enough to prevent "BrettBSD"; it's not like you change the name in /usr/src/Makefile.inc1, and you're done. I also think that the success of a follow-on project would be minimal, comparatively: the project would lose a _lot_ over something like that. Right now, we have to manually correct the origins of the FreeBSD project, or people think that it's something that started after Linux as a "me too!" type thing. The same barriers to "BrettBSD" would be there for "TheOperatingSystemFormerlyKnownAsFreeBSD". ] > This concern is amplified by the recent problems with the PicoBSD ] > builds, using 4.3-RELEASE. ] ] Which has nothing to do with WindRiver. If the people doing PicoBSD ] wish to put more time into it, and I'm sure they'd welcome your own ] contributions, that remains entirely independent of this issue. I understand that; but this is the first time in a long time it has been broken following a release. It's the appearance of the thing. I'm sure that if Windriver had a big market in PCMCIA drivers, we'd have some people placing blame for the 4.3 PCMCIA card insertion freezes on their doorstep, as an anticompetitive practice. I think that, as ridiculous as that seems, care needs to be taken to preclude such conclusions, and to deprive skeptics of their ammunition. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 10:45:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aurora.sol.net (aurora.sol.net [206.55.65.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C255E37B43C for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:45:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgreco@aurora.sol.net) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by aurora.sol.net (8.9.3/8.9.2/SNNS-1.02) id MAA78336; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:45:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <200105041745.MAA78336@aurora.sol.net> Subject: Re: [jkh@osd.bsdi.com: ANNOUNCE: Status update on ftp.freebsd.org AKA ftp.freesoftware.com] To: kris@obsecurity.org Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:45:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jessemonroy@email.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:38:58PM -0700, jessem@livecam.com wrote: > > 2) Speculation exists that FreeBSD is only making release to > > generate cash, not because any real changes apply to the software. > > HahahahahaAHAHAA! > > Good one, you twonk. > > Kris > > P.S. Rumour is that if you peel off the stickers on the forthcoming > 4.3 release you'll see it's nothing but a rebadged 2.0.5. Oh, friend, of what poor quality is the crack you smoke? It is obvious to even the most passing observer that 4.3R is nothing more than 386BSD 0.0 with about three patches. We're still waiting for a better floppy driver though. Anyone? Heh, ... JG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 11:22:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5119137B43C for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 11:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24024; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:22:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:21:17 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15090.52681.221237.710261@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:42 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >No, I'm being realistic. Publishers doing ebooks are reserving >providing licenses that disallow long-established practices. "E-books" aren't popular with libraries anyway, because they would have to loan out the players. (They're also inherently undemocratic in that not everyone can AFFORD the players.) Every title available as an "e-book" is also available in print for libraries to buy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 11:24:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA43837B43C for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24044; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:24:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:24:22 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15090.53231.219185.256567@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:51 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Considering that we're dealing with a group that has publicly stated >policies of replacing fair use with a per-use charge and doing away >with the doctrine of first sale... A "group?" It's amazing how easily alarmists such as yourself are projecting the desires of a VERY FEW software publishers onto all publishers of content. Your blind rage is disturbing, as are your alarmist sweeping generalizations. I am a publisher and have no intention of doing any such thing with my books. I doubt that most other publishers would either. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 11:34: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C4CA37B424 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 13042 invoked by uid 100); 4 May 2001 18:33:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15090.62994.434281.492893@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:33:54 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 09:42 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >No, I'm being realistic. Publishers doing ebooks are reserving > >providing licenses that disallow long-established practices. > "E-books" aren't popular with libraries anyway, because they > would have to loan out the players. Non sequitor. They don't have to loan out the players any more than they have to for VHS cassettes. Even relative backwater libraries like the one I use have e-book programs in place. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 11:39: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A59237B43C for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 11:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 13217 invoked by uid 100); 4 May 2001 18:39:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15090.63303.376643.993390@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:39:03 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 09:51 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Considering that we're dealing with a group that has publicly stated > >policies of replacing fair use with a per-use charge and doing away > >with the doctrine of first sale... > A "group?" Well, while they are communicative, I wouldn't associate with them. I guess a bag would be a better description. > It's amazing how easily alarmists such as yourself are projecting > the desires of a VERY FEW software publishers onto all publishers > of content. No, most software publishers just stop at denying the public any rights, but don't do anything to actually enforce it. It's the major content publishers - Disney, Warner Brothers, MGM and their ilk - that are taking away the rights of the public. That they also make life difficult for small publishers is undoubtedly just gravy to them. > Your blind rage is disturbing, as are your alarmist sweeping > generalizations. I am a publisher and have no intention of doing any > such thing with my books. I doubt that most other publishers would > either. You accusing someone of blind rage and sweeping, alarmist generalizations is absolutly *hilarious*. What's really sad is that your attacks are aimed at people who are fighting for *your* rights as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 12:21:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33D037B424 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1132"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K365JY3QVY003YP0@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 4 May 2001 15:21:05 EDT Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:25:36 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AF30230.F017FC25@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200105041704.KAA14636@usr08.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > ... > > I'm not interested in anything at all regarding IDE; can you filter > that from -hackers, too? Isn't hackers for talking about _technology_? > IDE hardly qualifies... > It might be obsolete technology but it still technology nevertheless. Some people do subscribe to Popular Mechanics you know?? > > > > > As someone who uses FreeBSD in a business context, and has off > > > > > and on since 1993, it is alarming to go out and try to grab a > > > > > distribution, only to find out that it's not where you expected > > > > > it to be. > > > > > > > > Surely it's on the mirrors, yes? > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > Is CVS broken ?? > > No, the Makefiles in FreeBSD are broken. Since it's available > from CVS, but not FTP, the Makefiles shouldn't use FTP, by your > reasoning, right? > My only reasoning is that FreeBSD is not dead just because the ftp sites are broken. Actually we reached a milestone...there is so much interest in a release that the network can't withstand it anymore !! I hope this doesn't occur again, but we can be happy. > In point of fact, the 35 ports necessary fro building a release > are _NOT_ in FreeBSD's CVS. > > > People shouldn't complain so much for something that is provided for > > free... remember..the BSD license doesn't include "the right to ftp > > the software from my nearest repository". It was particularly > > ridiculous to see this Jesus Monroy "demanding" heads to roll. No way, > > please keep the clown in -chat. > > I didn't see him use that phrase. It was not his phrase, but I think I got his idea: " B) Major incompetence (in which someone should resign)". OT: Hmmm..did I mention I am considered an alien in this country ?? > While I agree he failed to > express himself well, the point that FreeBSD as a project is > apparently fragile is well taken. > FreeBSD has never been a project: projects start and have a defined termination. FreeBSD has had some difficult moments, that's true...remember when a really important core team member left the project?? That was much more serious, imho, but we are still alive and we'll be kicking for much long. I respectfully think you are overreacting Terry: whatever is happening with Wind River and the whole situation behind the many .com's suddenly dying shouldn't be tied up with FreeBSD. Personally I am more worried that as a community we have been unable to take advantage of all the relevant opportunities. What happened with stacking filesystems, with OpenAFS, with OpenOffice?? We always complain that other OSs are getting all the attention..but those projects that are here for us receive no attention. I've never lost faith in FreeBSD, but where was all this concern when we needed votes to get Kylix ported to FreeBSD?? This is no rant against you Terry...I'm perfectly aware that you have always done your best to help. You just can't expect the community to react like you want to, even when it seems to be in their own benefit. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 14:11: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D86037B423 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24588; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105042110.OAA24588@dnull.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010504003330A.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 May, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> I think this is the crux of things; if you had communicated >> that information, that way, I think the outage itself would >> have been a tempest in a teacup, and widely ignored while > > Perhaps, though I also can't help but notice that none of this > occurred until *after* I posted something to announce. "Damned if you > do, damned if you don't" is a phrase which comes to mind. > I disagree. One of the points I've been trying to make this whole time is that FreeBSD has community support. There are plenty of businesses and people willing to help, if given an opportunity. However, when situation like this happen FreeBSD (et. al) go into heavy denial. Not just of the situation, but of need of assistance. Per, the announcement itself, I'm sure there would have been people to complain. Hell, I probababely(sp?) would be one of them. The bottom line, after last nights meeting is: most club members are willing to give all involved the benefit of the doubt. Most people are willing to wait to get the new RELEASE, even though 5 of 7 could not get it after trying all week. >>....[Trimming bunch of stuff]... >> >> The FreeBSD trademark is still controlled by someone other than >> the FreeBSD Foundation. I _did_ listen in on the conference call, >> but I didn't interrupt with a question about your justification >> for not transferring this to the foundation, sinceI didn't want > > Well, this is certainly something we also agreed to try and address > and nobody said it *wouldn't* be done, simply that it had to be done > carefully. I also never said that there would be no transfer, just > that it had to be transferred with a full and complete understanding > of what that entailed. > I think this is the issue: Saying, "nobody said it wouldn't be done". As we continue to grow FreeBSD, "not saying" things will come back to bite us again and again. This is not to say there are not situation in which one might see prudent reason for silence. In short, FreeBSD (et. al) needs to take this opportunity to regroup, define new directions, organize new methods, and with this new "Sugar Daddy" breakout of this stale mate. By statemate (sp?), I mean this circular issue of not communicating well. I know that in part resource bind FreeBSD to us certain channels and methods. This new resource (ie. WindRiver) needs to be exploited. As such, everyone must understand the benefits of Open Source and exactly why FreeBSD is good for their business. In essance, FreeBSD (et. al) has *not* done this. To that, we must expand the methods and means by which we communicate. I have done what I can (poor as that might be), it is up to you (et. al) to do the rest. I hope I've been clear. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 14:29:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C329137B423 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:29:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jessem@jigsaw.svbug.com) Received: from jigsaw.svbug.com ([198.79.110.2]) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24725; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105042129.OAA24725@dnull.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT) From: jessem@livecam.com Reply-To: jessemonroy@email.com Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, jessemonroy@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200105041730.KAA15084@usr08.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 May, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>...[Trimmed]... > ] Also, this is (again) a ports collection issue and should be taken > ] up with the appropriate maintainers. > > I still think this is a build issue, not a ports issue; it speaks > to repeatability. You argue that the tools not building correctly > is a ports issue; I'm arguing that even if the ports were corrected, > there's no guarantee that the files needed to build them will > persist over time. > > To put it another way, I think that if under-water archeologists > salvage a PC with a CVS mirror on it 50 years from now, that it > should be possible to "make release" on the thing, and have it > work. I guess I'm asking that the build bits be archived with > the rest of the FreeBSD sources, and pulled down as part of the > process of mirroring a full source tree. > I must agree with Terry on this point. This build issue has been one of the selling points to *BSD. Under Linux and other OSs this is a major issue. Under *BSD, it is a selling point. >>>...[More Trimmed]... > ] > This is not to be spiteful, but what would happen if the holders of > ] > these things suddenly became adversarial to the project? > ] > ] We (core) already discussed that way back when the WC filing > ] occurred. In the worst case, we simply change our name and the > ] trademark holder is left holding an empty bag. A painful transition > ] to be sure, but even the threat of doing that should generally be > ] enough to avoid going to such an adversarial extreme. It's truly the > ] project which holds the cards here, not some PTO registrant. > > I was more worried about what happens if the legal entity holding > the thing dissolves without assigning it to the project, and what > happens to the project. > > Clearly there's always the "change the name" option, but that seems > to have been enough to prevent "BrettBSD"; it's not like you change > the name in /usr/src/Makefile.inc1, and you're done. > > I also think that the success of a follow-on project would be minimal, > comparatively: the project would lose a _lot_ over something like > that. Right now, we have to manually correct the origins of the > FreeBSD project, or people think that it's something that started > after Linux as a "me too!" type thing. The same barriers to "BrettBSD" > would be there for "TheOperatingSystemFormerlyKnownAsFreeBSD". > I agree with Terry's point on this. The PTO registrant needs better protection. There are many organizations that have been tossed into limbo because of situations like this. BMUG easily comes to mind. > ] > This concern is amplified by the recent problems with the PicoBSD > ] > builds, using 4.3-RELEASE. > ] > ] Which has nothing to do with WindRiver. If the people doing PicoBSD > ] wish to put more time into it, and I'm sure they'd welcome your own > ] contributions, that remains entirely independent of this issue. > > I understand that; but this is the first time in a long time it > has been broken following a release. It's the appearance of the > thing. > > I'm sure that if Windriver had a big market in PCMCIA drivers, we'd > have some people placing blame for the 4.3 PCMCIA card insertion > freezes on their doorstep, as an anticompetitive practice. > > I think that, as ridiculous as that seems, care needs to be taken > to preclude such conclusions, and to deprive skeptics of their > ammunition. > > I completely agree with Terry on this point. Part of my frustration in coming to the mailing list (and shooting first and asking questions later) was exactly this behaviour. As the club president (in SV of all places), I get requests and questions which I'd never consider. I'm constantly bombarded with rumours and inudendo(sp?). My largest job is to act as a sounding board and a reflector. People tell me stuff, durning meetings and annoucements I repeat them (after some verification). There is more, but I think you (et. al) get the point. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 16:55:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF81537B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1085"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K36F4VZOLG010896@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 4 May 2001 19:55:17 EDT Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 19:59:48 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Concern over ftp.freebsd.org To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AF34274.2D4731C5@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200105041704.KAA14636@usr08.primenet.com> <3AF30230.F017FC25@pitt.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm sorry, this rant was completely off topic and I shouldn't have included it in this discussion. FreeBSD is what we make out of it, and we have very good people in many areas. cheers, Pedro. "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > ... > > Personally I am more worried that as a community we have been unable > to take advantage of all the relevant opportunities. What happened > with stacking filesystems, with OpenAFS, with OpenOffice?? We always > complain that other OSs are getting all the attention..but those > projects that are here for us receive no attention. > > I've never lost faith in FreeBSD, but where was all this concern when > we needed votes to get Kylix ported to FreeBSD?? This is no rant > against you Terry...I'm perfectly aware that you have always done your > best to help. You just can't expect the community to react like you > want to, even when it seems to be in their own benefit. > > Pedro. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 20:29:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp3.registeredsite.com (mailtmp3.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1A737B423 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 20:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail5.registeredsite.com (mail5.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.14]) by mailtmp3.registeredsite.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00994 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 23:28:08 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail5.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f453Tm523506 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 23:29:48 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A3A86D2010C; Fri, 04 May 2001 23:29:44 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504232705.03d21160@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:29:38 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Terry watches Jerry In-Reply-To: <200105032146.OAA02712@usr05.primenet.com> References: <20010503112139V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Man, Terry...you write 3.8 billion lines of cross-platform code, dozens of e-mails spanning multiple pages, and you still have time to watch Jerry Springer? You're in-freakin'-credible, man! :-) Must have TiVo or something... --Chip Morton At 05:45 PM 5/3/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >I don't appreciate the mini-flame-fest, and I don't appreciate >this being moved from -hackers, and turned into a mailing list >version of The Jerry Springer Show. [snip] > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 20:32:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F0D37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 20:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29752; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213138.00cf9c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:32:22 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15090.62994.434281.492893@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:33 PM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Brett Glass types: >> At 09:42 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> >No, I'm being realistic. Publishers doing ebooks are reserving >> >providing licenses that disallow long-established practices. >> "E-books" aren't popular with libraries anyway, because they >> would have to loan out the players. > >Non sequitor. They don't have to loan out the players any more than >they have to for VHS cassettes. Far more people have VCRs than e-book players. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 20:38:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38EA37B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 20:38:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29803; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:38:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:38:26 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15090.63303.376643.993390@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:39 PM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Brett Glass types: >> At 09:51 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> >Considering that we're dealing with a group that has publicly stated >> >policies of replacing fair use with a per-use charge and doing away >> >with the doctrine of first sale... >> A "group?" > >Well, while they are communicative, I wouldn't associate with them. There are many other people in the FreeBSD community who are publishers. Guess you'd better drop out.... You might otherwise associate with many "e-vile" people. >No, most software publishers just stop at denying the public any >rights, but don't do anything to actually enforce it. Not so. Many of them DO enforce it. >It's the major >content publishers - Disney, Warner Brothers, MGM and their ilk - that >are taking away the rights of the public. That they also make life >difficult for small publishers is undoubtedly just gravy to them. One way in which the few nasty large publishers make life difficult for smaller ones is that they turn loose rabid folk like yourself, who then do their work for them. >You accusing someone of blind rage and sweeping, alarmist >generalizations is absolutly *hilarious*. No, it's disturbing. Especially since I seem to encounter it so much among people who should know better but have become raving zealots like yourself. > What's really sad is that >your attacks are aimed at people who are fighting for *your* rights as >well. Not at all. You're fighting to destroy my rights as an author, publisher, musician, and programmer. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 4 21:48:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E926837B422 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:48:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 629D966B01F; Fri, 4 May 2001 22:40:56 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 22:40:56 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Message-ID: <20010504224056.A48556@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:13:55AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:13:55AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Anyone following the ongoing attacks from rapacious publishers on the > publics rights might be interested in the article by Ann Bartow at > . She's a > professor in the University of South Carolina's School of Law, and > examines the effects of those attacks on libraries, along with > recommendations for responses to those attacks. I mostly just skimmed through the article but I was wondering does anyone here think that not buying books from publishers who do such things, and not using libraries, or going to universities that also do such things be an effective approach? I for one absolutely refuse to buy from any bookstore or any publisher that restricts my rights in this way. After all what do you think was one of the reasons I abandoned Microsoft?? Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 1:21:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 132C937B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 01:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 30399 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 08:21:42 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15091.47125.871395.53949@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 03:21:41 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213138.00cf9c80@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213138.00cf9c80@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 12:33 PM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Brett Glass types: > >> At 09:42 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >> >No, I'm being realistic. Publishers doing ebooks are reserving > >> >providing licenses that disallow long-established practices. > >> "E-books" aren't popular with libraries anyway, because they > >> would have to loan out the players. > >Non sequitor. They don't have to loan out the players any more than > >they have to for VHS cassettes. > Far more people have VCRs than e-book players. In other words, you admit it's a non sequitor. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 1:29:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 979F237B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 01:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 30630 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 08:29:53 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 03:29:52 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 12:39 PM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Brett Glass types: > >> At 09:51 AM 5/4/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >> >Considering that we're dealing with a group that has publicly stated > >> >policies of replacing fair use with a per-use charge and doing away > >> >with the doctrine of first sale... > >> A "group?" > >Well, while they are communicative, I wouldn't associate with them. > There are many other people in the FreeBSD community who are > publishers. Guess you'd better drop out.... You might otherwise > associate with many "e-vile" people. Nah - I'd rather try and educate them as to what their peers in that industry are doing - sometimes via associations that they are members of. > >No, most software publishers just stop at denying the public any > >rights, but don't do anything to actually enforce it. > Not so. Many of them DO enforce it. Hmm - I guess I've been lucky in avoiding them. > >It's the major > >content publishers - Disney, Warner Brothers, MGM and their ilk - that > >are taking away the rights of the public. That they also make life > >difficult for small publishers is undoubtedly just gravy to them. > One way in which the few nasty large publishers make life difficult > for smaller ones is that they turn loose rabid folk like yourself, who > then do their work for them. Actually, the rabid zealots doing their work for them are the demagogues of your stripe. > >You accusing someone of blind rage and sweeping, alarmist > >generalizations is absolutly *hilarious*. > No, it's disturbing. Especially since I seem to encounter it so much > among people who should know better but have become raving zealots > like yourself. No, it's hilarious. Because *you* are the primary source of blind rage, sweeping generalizations, alarmist proclomations - not to meantion zelotry and demagoguery on this list. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have felt the need to forward information from the library community about what publishers are up to. > > What's really sad is that > >your attacks are aimed at people who are fighting for *your* rights as > >well. > Not at all. You're fighting to destroy my rights as an author, > publisher, musician, and programmer. No, I'm fighting to provide you, as a small publisher, with the level playing field that the large publishers and the organizations they control are trying to deny you. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 2: 4:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F0D637B43C for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 02:04:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 31430 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 09:04:02 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15091.49666.472409.96677@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 04:04:02 -0500 To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <20010504224056.A48556@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <20010504224056.A48556@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Moline types: > On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:13:55AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Anyone following the ongoing attacks from rapacious publishers on the > > publics rights might be interested in the article by Ann Bartow at > > . She's a > > professor in the University of South Carolina's School of Law, and > > examines the effects of those attacks on libraries, along with > > recommendations for responses to those attacks. > I mostly just skimmed through the article but I was wondering does > anyone here think that not buying books from publishers who do such > things, and not using libraries, or going to universities that also > do such things be an effective approach? I for one absolutely refuse > to buy from any bookstore or any publisher that restricts my rights > in this way. After all what do you think was one of the reasons I > abandoned Microsoft?? [format recovered - please set your mailer to use real newlines.] Unless it's part of a nationally publicized boycott, you're probably doing more damage to yourself than to them, as all the publisher sees is a nominal drop in sales across all product lines. It would be better to refuse to buy any product that restricts your rights in some way, as then the publisher will see a drop only in the product lines that restrict the public's rights. If enough people refuse to buy such products, the product line will die, viz DIVX. This does require being aware of what products enforce such restrictions, but in some cases the publishers do the job for you. For instance, if you buy a DVD player that's not region locked, then DVD's that are locked against such players won't play. So you take them back, and get a refund. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 8:59:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E7A37B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 08:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06991; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:59:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095832.044108a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 09:59:10 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15091.47125.871395.53949@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213138.00cf9c80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213138.00cf9c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:21 AM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >In other words, you admit it's a non sequitor. I admit no such thing. You're being disingenuous here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9: 1:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D91637B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:01:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 96485 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 16:01:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.9178.609280.487407@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:01:30 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095832.044108a0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213138.00cf9c80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504121932.0464c400@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095832.044108a0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:21 AM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >In other words, you admit it's a non sequitor. > I admit no such thing. You're being disingenuous here. Your logic was simply flawed, and you're making excuses. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9: 2:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E0437B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07026; Sat, 5 May 2001 10:02:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 10:02:15 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:29 AM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Nah - I'd rather try and educate them as to what their peers in that >industry are doing - sometimes via associations that they are members >of. In other words, you'll go to those associations and tell them that they're "e-vile." That'll help a whole lot, I assure you. >> >It's the major >> >content publishers - Disney, Warner Brothers, MGM and their ilk - that >> >are taking away the rights of the public. That they also make life >> >difficult for small publishers is undoubtedly just gravy to them. >> One way in which the few nasty large publishers make life difficult >> for smaller ones is that they turn loose rabid folk like yourself, who >> then do their work for them. > >Actually, the rabid zealots doing their work for them are the >demagogues of your stripe. Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, I often expose rabid zealots and demagogues. You, via your vitriolic messages in this thread, are revealing yourself to be one of them better than I ever could. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9: 5:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7958237B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f45G56R64399 ; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA02927 ; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:05:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:05:19 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Message-ID: <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 05, 2001 at 10:02:15AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 5, 2001 at 10:02:15: > > Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9: 6:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C78637B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 96826 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 16:06:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.9477.648803.292302@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:06:29 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:29 AM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Nah - I'd rather try and educate them as to what their peers in that > >industry are doing - sometimes via associations that they are members > >of. > In other words, you'll go to those associations and tell them that > they're "e-vile." That'll help a whole lot, I assure you. Well, if you identify yourself with those attacking the publics rights, then you can consider yourself evil. > >Actually, the rabid zealots doing their work for them are the > >demagogues of your stripe. > Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, I often expose rabid > zealots and demagogues. You, via your vitriolic messages in this > thread, are revealing yourself to be one of them better than I > ever could. Another non sequitor. You've never advocated moderation. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9: 7:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F06B937B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 96929 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 16:07:27 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.9535.413100.208229@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:07:27 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > Brett Glass said on May 5, 2001 at 10:02:15: > > Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, > Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? No. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9:10:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C09537B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07112; Sat, 5 May 2001 10:09:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 10:09:28 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:05 AM 5/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Brett Glass said on May 5, 2001 at 10:02:15: >> >> Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, > >Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? Extremists often try to brand those who advocate moderation as being extremists themselves. It's a "spin" tactic that those who think critically are able to see through. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 9:13:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC4437B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f45GDXR64881 ; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:13:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA03352 ; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:13:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:13:46 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Message-ID: <20010505181346.H92553@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 05, 2001 at 10:09:28AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 5, 2001 at 10:09:28: > At 10:05 AM 5/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >Brett Glass said on May 5, 2001 at 10:02:15: > >> > >> Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, > > > >Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? > > Extremists often try to brand those who advocate > moderation as being extremists themselves. It's > a "spin" tactic that those who think critically > are able to see through. Very well put. Have you ever thought of applying it to yourself? Reading your various posts to the list, it's quite clear that you habitually brand everyone who disagrees with you as a rabid zealot, as you repeatedly did in this thread. You have strong opinions on many things, and you're perfectly entitled to them, but please don't call yourself a moderate. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 10:27: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1790037B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07710; Sat, 5 May 2001 11:26:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505112509.00cdaba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 11:26:34 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010505181346.H92553@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:13 AM 5/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Reading your various posts to the list, it's quite clear that >you habitually brand everyone who disagrees with you as a >rabid zealot, as you repeatedly did in this thread. Not so. However, I do note such zealotry when I see it. >You have strong opinions on many things, and you're perfectly >entitled to them, but please don't call yourself a moderate. That one argues forcefully for moderation does not make one any less a moderate. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 13:24:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCB5037B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 13:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 2008 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 20:24:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.24982.253793.108795@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 15:24:54 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505112509.00cdaba0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <20010505180519.G92553@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505112509.00cdaba0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 10:13 AM 5/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >Reading your various posts to the list, it's quite clear that > >you habitually brand everyone who disagrees with you as a > >rabid zealot, as you repeatedly did in this thread. > Not so. However, I do note such zealotry when I see it. I have to agree with Brett. He insists that the most rabid, zealous hateful person who posts to this list is a "moderate". Of course, he probably doesn't look in the mirror very often. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 13:29:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BB3737B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 2197 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 20:29:17 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 15:29:17 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 10:05 AM 5/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >Brett Glass said on May 5, 2001 at 10:02:15: > >> Nonsense. However, by advocating moderation, > >Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? > Extremists often try to brand those who advocate > moderation as being extremists themselves. It's > a "spin" tactic that those who think critically > are able to see through. This just gets funnier and funnier. Brett is right - and makes a *perfect* example of the kind of thing he's talking about. He's by far the most extreme person on the list, and also one of the first who brands more people as "extremists zealots." http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:23:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ABE237B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09431; Sat, 5 May 2001 15:23:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152137.04add690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 15:23:27 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15092.9477.648803.292302@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:06 AM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Another non sequitor. You've never advocated moderation. Not true at all. I've always advocated a middle ground between the interests of greedy corporations, greedy consumers, and (except for a few percent) starving artists. Your message at the start of this thread was alarmist and extreme. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:26:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A36D737B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 3436 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 21:26:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.28692.524293.468519@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:26:44 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152137.04add690@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152137.04add690@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 10:06 AM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Another non sequitor. You've never advocated moderation. > Not true at all. I've always advocated a middle ground > between the interests of greedy corporations, greedy consumers, > and (except for a few percent) starving artists. Your > message at the start of this thread was alarmist and extreme. With a single exception, you've always advocated against consumers rights, and for the publisher. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:26:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EB737B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09472; Sat, 5 May 2001 15:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152406.04ae62e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 15:26:10 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:29 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Brett is right - and makes a *perfect* example of the kind of thing >he's talking about. He's by far the most extreme person on the list, Not at all. You are confusing strong advocacy of ethical behavior and moderation (which I do practice) for extreme viewpoints (which I do not have). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:32: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA3D737B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 3649 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 21:31:57 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.29005.84201.152583@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:31:57 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152406.04ae62e0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152406.04ae62e0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:29 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Brett is right - and makes a *perfect* example of the kind of thing > >he's talking about. He's by far the most extreme person on the list, > Not at all. You are confusing strong advocacy of ethical > behavior and moderation (which I do practice) for extreme viewpoints > (which I do not have). I'm perfectly willing to believe you practice moderation - but you certainly don't preach it. If your viewpoints aren't extreme, those more extreme than you don't post to this list. Which makes you exactly what I said - easily the most extreme person on this list. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:36:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F384937B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 3806 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 21:36:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.29277.382007.991164@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:36:29 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett is busily claiming to be a moderate, which implies that he's taking a middle ground between two extreme positions. In the time I've been watching him, I've as yet to see anyone take a position more extreme than his. Are you people out there, and just not talking? If so, I applaud your restraint, but would like to hear from you at this point. If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, please speak up. If you think Brett was wrong to criticize the DMCA, say so. Note that I'm not asking you anyone to defend these views. I'm just curious if, as Brett claims, there are people on this list with views more extreme than his. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:38:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B7C37B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09587; Sat, 5 May 2001 15:38:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153617.049b6130@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 15:38:05 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15092.28692.524293.468519@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152137.04add690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152137.04add690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:26 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >With a single exception, you've always advocated against consumers >rights, and for the publisher. Not true at all. I am a strong advocate of consumers' rights. However, when dealing with zealots who believe that they should be able to pirate anything they want for free, or that all publishers are evil and should be destroyed, I will naturally disagree. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:39:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C5837B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09599; Sat, 5 May 2001 15:39:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153822.00beff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 15:38:51 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15092.29005.84201.152583@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152406.04ae62e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152406.04ae62e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:31 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >I'm perfectly willing to believe you practice moderation - but you >certainly don't preach it. You obviously haven't read my writings or heard my talks on the subject. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:41:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D9B37B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09623; Sat, 5 May 2001 15:41:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153909.04ae0180@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 15:40:56 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <15092.29277.382007.991164@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:36 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, >please speak up. The GPL, the FSF, and RMS are perhaps the most extreme, destructive, and disingenuous of the extremists. So, no, I will not "take it easy" on them. It's very important for cooler heads to expose and debunk them. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:41:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6669437B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:41:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 4274 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 21:41:45 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.29593.612647.836532@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:41:45 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153617.049b6130@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505152137.04add690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505095934.04417930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504213229.043f5460@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504122121.04699dc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504093633.045b1850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010504091914.0467d5b0@localhost> <15090.43795.549818.410213@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153617.049b6130@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 03:26 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >With a single exception, you've always advocated against consumers > >rights, and for the publisher. > Not true at all. I am a strong advocate of consumers' rights. Then why don't you start doing it here? > However, when dealing with zealots who believe that they > should be able to pirate anything they want for free, or > that all publishers are evil and should be destroyed, I > will naturally disagree. Gee, that's strange. I'm generally viewed as a strong supporter of commercial interests. But when I faced with people who regularly attack non-commercial groups and publicly advocate their destruction, I naturally disagree. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 14:43:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D3BF37B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 4387 invoked by uid 100); 5 May 2001 21:43:18 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15092.29686.623479.776532@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:43:18 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153909.04ae0180@localhost> References: <15092.29277.382007.991164@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153909.04ae0180@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 03:36 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, > >please speak up. > The GPL, the FSF, and RMS are perhaps the most extreme, > destructive, and disingenuous of the extremists. So, no, I > will not "take it easy" on them. It's very important for > cooler heads to expose and debunk them. As usual, you've failed to read what I wrote. Your attacks on them are perfect examples of hateful, extremist behavior. But I wasn't asking you to moderate yourself, I was asking if anyone else considered your position to be moderate. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 16:59:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEA337B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 16:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id f45NxeO13618; Sat, 5 May 2001 16:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:59:40 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Doug Russell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: no keyboard Message-ID: <20010505165940.H18676@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20010505121008.E18676@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from drussell@saturn-tech.com on Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:08:05PM -0600 X-all-your-base: are belong to us. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Doug Russell [010505 16:48] wrote: > > Besides... It's not as bad as hot-swapping ISA cards. When I first got > my Microsoft InPort Bus Mouse (with Windows 286) years and years ago, I > used to often move it between my BBS machine and my development machine > every few minutes when I was building some of the ANSI screens, etc. > > Occasionally I had to go to DOS and re-enable the mouse driver, but it > actually worked because the card was so simple. :) Not recommended. > > Yes, I am crazy. HA! :) Back when I was much younger I got a Pro-AudioSpectrum16 I was playing the jumper game with it trying to find a free IRQ for the beast, at about 4am with my eyes half shut from being exahusted I forgot to power off the machine before inserting the card. I got a nice very bright blue arc of electricity from the PAS to my IO controller. I screamed and quickly hit the power. Remarkably the both the PAS and IO board continued to function until they were decommissioned several years later. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [alfred@freebsd.org] http://www.egr.unlv.edu/~slumos/on-netbsd.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 17: 9:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beastie.saturn-tech.com (beastie.saturn-tech.com [207.229.19.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3C837B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 17:09:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by beastie.saturn-tech.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f460UeP96092; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:30:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beastie.saturn-tech.com: drussell owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:30:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Doug Russell To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: no keyboard In-Reply-To: <20010505165940.H18676@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 May 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > HA! :) Back when I was much younger I got a Pro-AudioSpectrum16 > I was playing the jumper game with it trying to find a free IRQ > for the beast, at about 4am with my eyes half shut from being > exahusted I forgot to power off the machine before inserting the > card. > > I got a nice very bright blue arc of electricity from the PAS to > my IO controller. I screamed and quickly hit the power. > > Remarkably the both the PAS and IO board continued to function > until they were decommissioned several years later. hehe... Yup. I've done some strange ones over the many years now. :) I once started yanking the power connectors off the MB with the power on, (at about 4am, of course :) ) and only noticed because I happened to have pulled the one with the negative supplies first, so the machine was still running, but the video was all blue and washed out because the DAC on the video card was getting no negative voltage used as reference. :) Still worked fine. Your arcing takes the cake, though. I can hear the little yelp, though. I've done THAT too many times. YIPES! What am I doing!?!! yeebers... :) That's what we get when trying to make hardware work at 4am, right? Later...... P.S. The InPort mouse and card still work. I should go dig 'em up again. This mouse came with a lifetime warranty, and you better believe if it ever quits, I'm going to demand a replacement from Microsoft. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 17:52:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19E637B43C for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 17:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r39.bfm.org [216.127.220.135]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 5 May 2001 19:55:56 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 19:49:27 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Meyer From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <15092.29277.382007.991164@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:36 05-05-2001 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: >If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, >please speak up. It's all relative. But I think Brett makes some very good points about RMS. RMS has made considerable damage to programmers everywhere. Unfortunately, it is the kind of damage that is quite irreversible. Then again, RMS could not have caused the damage had he not found myriads of followers among programmers, of all people. That was because generally programmers were disgusted with the developments in the industry about two decades ago. Sort of reminds me of Czechoslovakia in 1948: While we Slovaks voted against Communism, most Czechs voted for it and it destroyed them. The reason (as a Czech lady of my parents generation explained) was that the Czechs had suffered under the Nazi occupation, and Communists seemed great when compared to the Nazi. Once they realized they were just two faces of the same coin, it was too late. I view RMS as the other face of the same coin of Microsoft and other greedy software companies (there were quite a few of them a decade and two ago before MS beat most of them). He may have seemed like the savior in the 1980's. Alas, he was (and continues to be) just as destructive as the greedy bunch, and it is now close to impossible to undo the damage he has made. For what it's worth, I think RMS is *worse* than MS and company: At least people like Bill Gates are motivated by greed which, while sad, is nothing unusual in the Capitalist society. Whatever damage they do to the computer industry is only a byproduct of their greed. RMS, on the other hand, has no other goal in mind than the destruction of the programming profession: The better you are at it, the more he wants to destroy you. In his case it is not a byproduct, it is the product. (Mind you, I'm not defending Gates, just saying that in a way I can see him as the lesser evil when compared with RMS.) On the other hand, the discussion is going on forever, so I generally stopped reading it. I certainly do not want to get pulled into this discussion: Just answering your question. Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 17:57:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238A737B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 17:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 634006ACBA; Sun, 6 May 2001 10:27:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:27:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Message-ID: <20010506102750.C39554@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <15092.29277.382007.991164@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153909.04ae0180@localhost> <15092.29686.623479.776532@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15092.29686.623479.776532@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:18PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 5 May 2001 at 16:43:18 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Brett Glass types: >> At 03:36 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >>> If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, >>> please speak up. >> >> The GPL, the FSF, and RMS are perhaps the most extreme, >> destructive, and disingenuous of the extremists. So, no, I >> will not "take it easy" on them. It's very important for >> cooler heads to expose and debunk them. > > As usual, you've failed to read what I wrote. > > Your attacks on them are perfect examples of hateful, extremist > behavior. But I wasn't asking you to moderate yourself, I was asking > if anyone else considered your position to be moderate. Mike, you're relatively new round here. Brett has been ranting on this issue for as long as I can remember. Initially we tried discussing with him, but he ignored our arguments. He may have a few good points, but they're so embedded in extremist rhetoric that we can't even be bothered to respond. He reminds me of the prophets of doom who used to stand on a soapbox in a public place and rant to the disinterested passers-by. It's a sign of a healthy society that you can put up with people like that. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 17:59: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E863237B423 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 17:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id TAA306690 Sat, 5 May 2001 19:54:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10902; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:00:06 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Message-ID: <20010505180006.A10863@darkstar.gte.net> References: <15092.29277.382007.991164@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505153909.04ae0180@localhost> <15092.29686.623479.776532@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <15092.29686.623479.776532@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:18PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike, I have to admit that I chuckled for a few minutes after reading your first post in this thread. But I think that calling Brett's posts "hateful" or "extremist" are a bit of a stretch. I don't feel like Brett's views are moderate. But that's just *my opinion*. I come to expect Brett to chime in on GPL issues. My views don't seem to be the same as the average person on this list either. But if everyone on the list had the same views, this would stop being an interesting list to read. [RC] On Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:18PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Brett Glass types: > > At 03:36 PM 5/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, > > >please speak up. > > The GPL, the FSF, and RMS are perhaps the most extreme, > > destructive, and disingenuous of the extremists. So, no, I > > will not "take it easy" on them. It's very important for > > cooler heads to expose and debunk them. > > As usual, you've failed to read what I wrote. > > Your attacks on them are perfect examples of hateful, extremist > behavior. But I wasn't asking you to moderate yourself, I was asking > if anyone else considered your position to be moderate. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 18:43:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE4D37B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f461fH365411; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: mwm@mired.org Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> References: <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010505184117G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:41:17 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 12 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Brett is right - and makes a *perfect* example of the kind of thing > he's talking about. He's by far the most extreme person on the list, > and also one of the first who brands more people as "extremists > zealots." Perhaps that bit of playground wisdom was more sage than we knew: "Takes one to know one." :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 18:48:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6E137B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.49] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14wDef-0004ic-00; Sat, 05 May 2001 19:48:13 -0600 From: Joe Warner Organization: Daemon News To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:29:05 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050519474102.00516@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adam, You make some very logical points. >RMS, > on the other hand, has no other goal in mind than the destruction of > the programming profession: I'm by no means defending RMS but why would he want to do this? What's his motivation? Also, and this may be off topic but more and more lately, I've noticed the ugly head of Linux vs BSD and vice versa popping up on the web. I realize it's something that's gone on for a long time but..why? Why isn't it BSD/Linux vs MS? It can't be all blamed on the fact that Apple chose to use BSD over Linux in OS X or because the Open Group has recently added Apple to it's list of vendors that support the single UNIX specification. Cheers Joe On Sat, 05 May 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 16:36 05-05-2001 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > >If you think Brett is taking it easy on RMS, the GPL and the FSF, > >please speak up. > > It's all relative. But I think Brett makes some very good points > about RMS. RMS has made considerable damage to programmers everywhere. > Unfortunately, it is the kind of damage that is quite irreversible. > > Then again, RMS could not have caused the damage had he not found > myriads of followers among programmers, of all people. That was because > generally programmers were disgusted with the developments in the > industry about two decades ago. > > Sort of reminds me of Czechoslovakia in 1948: While we Slovaks voted > against Communism, most Czechs voted for it and it destroyed them. > The reason (as a Czech lady of my parents generation explained) was > that the Czechs had suffered under the Nazi occupation, and Communists > seemed great when compared to the Nazi. Once they realized they were > just two faces of the same coin, it was too late. > > I view RMS as the other face of the same coin of Microsoft and other > greedy software companies (there were quite a few of them a decade and > two ago before MS beat most of them). He may have seemed like the > savior in the 1980's. Alas, he was (and continues to be) just as > destructive as the greedy bunch, and it is now close to impossible > to undo the damage he has made. > > For what it's worth, I think RMS is *worse* than MS and company: At > least people like Bill Gates are motivated by greed which, while sad, > is nothing unusual in the Capitalist society. Whatever damage they > do to the computer industry is only a byproduct of their greed. RMS, > on the other hand, has no other goal in mind than the destruction of > the programming profession: The better you are at it, the more he wants > to destroy you. In his case it is not a byproduct, it is the product. > > (Mind you, I'm not defending Gates, just saying that in a way I can see > him as the lesser evil when compared with RMS.) > > On the other hand, the discussion is going on forever, so I generally > stopped reading it. I certainly do not want to get pulled into this > discussion: Just answering your question. > > Adam > > --- > http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you > and checks for its existence. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 19:51:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E4B37B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 19:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11860; Sat, 5 May 2001 20:50:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505204835.04581f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 20:50:45 -0600 To: Jordan Hubbard , mwm@mired.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010505184117G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> References: <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:41 PM 5/5/2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >Perhaps that bit of playground wisdom was more sage than we knew: > > "Takes one to know one." Does not! Does too! (Etc., ad infinitum or ad nauseam.) In any event, Mike has dragged the level of discourse down to approximately that amount of maturity... or perhaps a bit lower. There's no point in clogging the list. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 20: 3:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DC337B42C for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11971; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:03:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:03:22 -0600 To: Joe Warner , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <01050519474102.00516@blackmirror.xmission.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:29 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: >I'm by no means defending RMS but why would he want to do >this? What's his motivation? Joe, have you ever read the book "Hackers," by Steven Levy? Levy does an excellent job of documenting the events that led to RMS' vendetta. There are a couple of significant events in RMS' life that are NOT included because they happened later... RMS' nervous breakdown, for example, which happened a few years after the book was written. But the events in the book laid the groundwork for his monomaniacal drive to destroy all commercial software companies and programmers. I read it the same year I first encountered RMS (who was, at the time, living in the apartment of an acquaintance). It explained a LOT, though it still didn't prepare me for some of the more vehement things RMS said during our first conversation. >Also, and this may be off topic but more and more lately, I've >noticed the ugly head of Linux vs BSD and vice versa popping >up on the web. I realize it's something that's gone on for a long >time but..why? Why isn't it BSD/Linux vs MS? I think that this depends on the forum. In forums such as Slashdot, where contempt for Microsoft's products is nearly universal, we see a lot of Linux vs. BSD debates. In the rest of the world, it's vs. MS. Folks who are not programmers do not understand either the licensing or technological differences among the UNIX-like OSes.... It's all over their heads. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 20:27:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE4837B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 20:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.49] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14wFCV-0007tP-00; Sat, 05 May 2001 21:27:15 -0600 From: Joe Warner Organization: Daemon News To: Brett Glass , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:16:50 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050521265200.00648@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 05 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:29 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: > > >I'm by no means defending RMS but why would he want to do > >this? What's his motivation? > > Joe, have you ever read the book "Hackers," by Steven Levy? Not yet. > > Levy does an excellent job of documenting the events that led > to RMS' vendetta. There are a couple of significant events in RMS' > life that are NOT included because they happened later... RMS' > nervous breakdown, for example, which happened a few years > after the book was written. But the events in the book > laid the groundwork for his monomaniacal drive to destroy > all commercial software companies and programmers. I read it > the same year I first encountered RMS (who was, at the time, > living in the apartment of an acquaintance). It explained a > LOT, though it still didn't prepare me for some of the more > vehement things RMS said during our first conversation. Sounds interesting. I'll have to get a copy and read it. > > >Also, and this may be off topic but more and more lately, I've > >noticed the ugly head of Linux vs BSD and vice versa popping > >up on the web. I realize it's something that's gone on for a long > >time but..why? Why isn't it BSD/Linux vs MS? > > I think that this depends on the forum. In forums such as > Slashdot, where contempt for Microsoft's products is nearly > universal, we see a lot of Linux vs. BSD debates. In the > rest of the world, it's vs. MS. Folks who > are not programmers do not understand either the licensing > or technological differences among the UNIX-like OSes.... > It's all over their heads. I hear you but IMO, whether it's BSD or Linux, we're all part of the Open Source community and I think it's high time to bury the hatchet. This rings especially true to me after re-reading Craig Mundie's speech that condemns aspects of Open Source. I get more agitated each time I read it. Regards Joe > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 20:37:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6B137B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 20:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12302; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:37:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:36:44 -0600 To: Joe Warner , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <01050521265200.00648@blackmirror.xmission.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20010505194927.00875100@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:16 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: >I hear you but IMO, whether it's BSD or Linux, we're all part of >the Open Source community Actually, Richard Stallman himself says that GPLed software is NOT open source. (See Dave Winer's essay at http://davenet.userland.com/2000/09/15/whatIsOpenSource and also RMS' own remarks on the FSF Web site.) And, despite the hand-waving of ESR and a few others, the GPL actually violates Point 6 of the Open Source Definition in that it discriminates -- very much so! -- against a group of people and a field of endeavor. GPLed software is not open source. >and I think it's high time to bury the >hatchet. This rings especially true to me after re-reading Craig >Mundie's speech that condemns aspects of Open Source. I get >more agitated each time I read it. Mundie's speech is irritating to me too, most especially because it intertwines some very valid points (It's true, for example, that "give-it-all-away" business models are foolish) with some obvious falsehoods. But the GPL, and Stallman's essays on the FSF site, do the same! As Adam has pointed out, Microsoft and the FSF are two sides of the same coin. Both are power-hungry and are out to hurt and to mislead. BSD should claim the ethical high ground here. When BSD says it's free software, it really means it. No nonsense about "free speech" vs. "free beer," or "keeping" software free by keeping it away from people who need it. BSD is free software. GPLed software isn't. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 20:49:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54A1D37B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 20:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 20578 invoked by uid 1000); 6 May 2001 03:47:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 23:47:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: Joe Warner , "G. Adam Stanislav" , Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:16 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: > > >and I think it's high time to bury the > >hatchet. This rings especially true to me after re-reading Craig > >Mundie's speech that condemns aspects of Open Source. I get > >more agitated each time I read it. > > Mundie's speech is irritating to me too, most especially > because it intertwines some very valid points (It's true, > for example, that "give-it-all-away" business models are > foolish) with some obvious falsehoods. But the GPL, and > Stallman's essays on the FSF site, do the same! As Adam > has pointed out, Microsoft and the FSF are two sides of > the same coin. Both are power-hungry and are out to hurt > and to mislead. > > BSD should claim the ethical high ground here. When BSD > says it's free software, it really means it. No nonsense > about "free speech" vs. "free beer," or "keeping" software > free by keeping it away from people who need it. BSD is > free software. GPLed software isn't. NetBSD has a page about that, does FreeBSD? In any case, making a big deal out of it makes the BSD community look like they want publicity because of it. Modestly stating that freedom to use and redistribute are important to the community as a whole, however, is tasteful, justified, and, unlike all of the GPL advocacy that says the same thing, true. > > --Brett > -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21: 1:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7673237B43C for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12525; Sat, 5 May 2001 22:01:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505215722.04649ed0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:01:20 -0600 To: Joseph Mallett From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Cc: Joe Warner , "G. Adam Stanislav" , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:47 PM 5/5/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >NetBSD has a page about that, does FreeBSD? In any case, making a big deal >out of it makes the BSD community look like they want publicity because of >it. I think that a certain amount of recognition of these points would not be a bad thing. The integrity of the philosophy is reflected in the integrity of the software. >Modestly stating that freedom to use and redistribute are important to >the community as a whole, however, is tasteful, justified, and, unlike all >of the GPL advocacy that says the same thing, true. Agree. But let's not soft-pedal it TOO much. To quote an old, old poem: The codfish lays 10,000 eggs; The common hen lays one. The codfish never cackles To tell us what she's done. And so we scorn the codfish, While the noble hen we prize.... Which only goes to show you That it pays to advertise. Author unknown --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:10:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A6337B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:10:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.49] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14wFsB-00067k-00; Sat, 05 May 2001 22:10:19 -0600 From: Joe Warner Organization: Daemon News To: Brett Glass , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:56:38 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050522095600.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >BSD is free software. GPLed software isn't. ..but this is from a programmers perspective and not just a users, right? It's true that the BSD License gives programmers and businesses more flexibility because they can customize BSD licensed code and, unlike GPL licensed code, don't have to give anything back. However, from a users perspective, I can download GPL licensed software for free and use it to my hearts content. With MS, the default install comes with a very limited amount of useful software and I have to pay through the nose to get the good stuff. All this after paying through the nose for the OS itself. I'm not trying to condone the GPL here but I view the MS "Own the world" motive a bigger threat. Joe On Sat, 05 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:16 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: > > >I hear you but IMO, whether it's BSD or Linux, we're all part of > >the Open Source community > > Actually, Richard Stallman himself says that GPLed software is > NOT open source. (See Dave Winer's essay at > > http://davenet.userland.com/2000/09/15/whatIsOpenSource > > and also RMS' own remarks on the FSF Web site.) And, despite > the hand-waving of ESR and a few others, the GPL actually > violates Point 6 of the Open Source Definition in that it > discriminates -- very much so! -- against a group of > people and a field of endeavor. GPLed software is > not open source. > > >and I think it's high time to bury the > >hatchet. This rings especially true to me after re-reading Craig > >Mundie's speech that condemns aspects of Open Source. I get > >more agitated each time I read it. > > Mundie's speech is irritating to me too, most especially > because it intertwines some very valid points (It's true, > for example, that "give-it-all-away" business models are > foolish) with some obvious falsehoods. But the GPL, and > Stallman's essays on the FSF site, do the same! As Adam > has pointed out, Microsoft and the FSF are two sides of > the same coin. Both are power-hungry and are out to hurt > and to mislead. > > BSD should claim the ethical high ground here. When BSD > says it's free software, it really means it. No nonsense > about "free speech" vs. "free beer," or "keeping" software > free by keeping it away from people who need it. BSD is > free software. GPLed software isn't. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:12:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7EC537B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 23640 invoked by uid 1000); 6 May 2001 04:10:15 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 00:10:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Joe Warner Cc: Brett Glass , "G. Adam Stanislav" , Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <01050522095600.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:22:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9548437B43E for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.49] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14wG43-00084z-00; Sat, 05 May 2001 22:22:35 -0600 From: Joe Warner Organization: Daemon News To: Joseph Mallett Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:16:02 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Cc: Brett Glass , "G. Adam Stanislav" , References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050522221201.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, it's certainly true that they pay well but that in itself comes with a price. In order to get paid well, you basically have to sell your soul to them. A guy I work with said that he has a neighbor who works for them and a typical work week is 60 hours and it's not because he's a work-a-holic, it's because it's standard policy. Joe On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to > force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. > > FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of > 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. > > -- > [ Joseph Mallett ] > [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] > [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] > > Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:25: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 90C2437B50D for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 2126 invoked by uid 1000); 6 May 2001 04:22:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 00:22:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Joe Warner Cc: Brett Glass , "G. Adam Stanislav" , Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <01050522221201.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I work at least 60 hours a week, and I don't get paid. The fun and excitement of coding just to code. =P -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org On Sat, 5 May 2001, Joe Warner wrote: > > Yes, it's certainly true that they pay well but that in itself comes with a > price. In order to get paid well, you basically have to sell your soul > to them. A guy I work with said that he has a neighbor who works for > them and a typical work week is 60 hours and it's not because he's > a work-a-holic, it's because it's standard policy. > > > Joe > > > > On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to > > force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. > > > > FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of > > 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. > > > > -- > > [ Joseph Mallett ] > > [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] > > [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] > > > > Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org > -- > Joe Warner > Daemon News > Bringing BSD Together > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:41:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A1F37B424 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.49] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14wGMT-0002NC-00; Sat, 05 May 2001 22:41:37 -0600 From: Joe Warner Organization: Daemon News To: Joseph Mallett Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:35:24 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Cc: Brett Glass , "G. Adam Stanislav" , References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050522411402.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Man! You're definitely hooked! 8^) I don't program (yet), get paid to work a 45-50 hour week and come home to have more fun. So, it's no surprise when my wife says; "Would you like me any better if I had a square face?" I was so amused with that comment, that I've used it as a sig before. Cheers Joe On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > I work at least 60 hours a week, and I don't get paid. The fun and > excitement of coding just to code. =P > > -- > [ Joseph Mallett ] > [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] > [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] > > Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org > > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Joe Warner wrote: > > > > > Yes, it's certainly true that they pay well but that in itself comes with a > > price. In order to get paid well, you basically have to sell your soul > > to them. A guy I work with said that he has a neighbor who works for > > them and a typical work week is 60 hours and it's not because he's > > a work-a-holic, it's because it's standard policy. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > > And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to > > > force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. > > > > > > FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of > > > 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. > > > > > > -- > > > [ Joseph Mallett ] > > > [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] > > > [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] > > > > > > Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org > > -- > > Joe Warner > > Daemon News > > Bringing BSD Together > > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > > Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ > > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ > > -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:55:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B732437B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:55:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f464tC367782; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:55:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jmallett@newgold.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010505215512L.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:55:12 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 14 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Joseph Mallett Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 23:47:31 -0400 (EDT) > NetBSD has a page about that, does FreeBSD? In any case, making a big deal > out of it makes the BSD community look like they want publicity because of > it. Modestly stating that freedom to use and redistribute are important to > the community as a whole, however, is tasteful, justified, and, unlike all > of the GPL advocacy that says the same thing, true. See http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/history.html section 1.3.2 - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 21:59:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (Aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DF1937B42C for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 21:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 19654 invoked by uid 1000); 6 May 2001 04:57:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 00:57:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? In-Reply-To: <20010505215512L.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > From: Joseph Mallett > Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? > Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 23:47:31 -0400 (EDT) > > > NetBSD has a page about that, does FreeBSD? In any case, making a big deal > > out of it makes the BSD community look like they want publicity because of > > it. Modestly stating that freedom to use and redistribute are important to > > the community as a whole, however, is tasteful, justified, and, unlike all > > of the GPL advocacy that says the same thing, true. > > See http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/history.html > section 1.3.2 Ah! That's good and balanced. I stand informed. > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 5 23:27:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132E037B422 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 23:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750E2349B for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 02:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 02:27:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Subject: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org When is the 4.3 CD-ROM set going to be available from the FreeBSD Mall? They still have 4.2 listed as the latest release. I placed an order for 4.3 within days of the release, but have since cancelled it as it doesn't appear to be shipping any time soon. BTW, they also still have www.freebsdrocks.com as the link under Advocacy... I've sent mail to the webmaster about this but have not received a response. I realize that things are topsy-turvy with the WindRiver business, but this really couldn't come at a worse time. Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message