From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 5 12:11: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C7537B41D for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f75JAtt33400 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:10:56 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200108051910.f75JAtt33400@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:10:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Polish translation please Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone pointed this out to me (as found at http://bsdzine.org/stories.php?topic=3D5). Could someone please translate it for me? Thank you [FreeBSD] Wys=B3ane przez: spaceman Nowe FreeBSD Diary Dan Langille, tw=F3rca serwisu http://www.freebsddiary.org poinformowa=B3 nas o zmianie szaty graficznej swojego serwisu. Gwoli przypomnienia, serwis FreeBSD Diary opisuje zmagania Dan-a z konfiguracj=B9 FreeBSD oraz oprogramowaniem dla tego systemu. Zapraszamy. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 5 16:10:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EDB37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19671 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:10:34 +0200 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f75NAnq46191 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:10:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:10:48 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: anyone at HAL2001? Message-ID: <20010806011048.B46129@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello! Will anyone be at HAL2001 in the Netherlands next weekend? If so, let's meet there at a given point/time and talk about life, stuff and how smart FreeBSD is. I know from IRC some people will be there, so let me know. Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 5 16:36:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (pD9E5AC10.dip.t-dialin.net [217.229.172.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1451437B401 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:36:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f75Nao415927; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:36:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from logix) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:36:48 +0200 From: Harold Gutch To: Alexander Langer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone at HAL2001? Message-ID: <20010806013648.A15892@foobar.franken.de> References: <20010806011048.B46129@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010806011048.B46129@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de>; from alex@big.endian.de on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 01:10:48AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 01:10:48AM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Hello! > > Will anyone be at HAL2001 in the Netherlands next weekend? I'll be there. bye, Harold To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 6:25:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B417637B401 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 06:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15TkOA-000Bas-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:25:46 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f76DPjX64420 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:25:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:25:44 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We hear all of the stories of how OEMs had to install Windows if they sold MS-DOS, but how did MSFT get the clout to require this in the first place? How did they go from being just-another-DOS to having the power to tell OEMs what they could and could not do, and price-gouging them if they did not comply? jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 6:35:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.kornet.net (unknown [211.48.62.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F02AF37B401; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 06:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from clubfriend@clubfriend.com) Received: from bown112 (211.38.171.177) by relay2.kornet.net; 6 Aug 2001 22:32:55 +0900 Message-ID: <006801c11e7b$fe8f4f20$b1ab26d3@kornet.net> Reply-To: "Youn, Roy" From: "Youn, Roy" To: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wK/H0MC7wdi68cfPtMK60LKy?= Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W8irurhdwK/H0Mb4xbq96sDPISEhyK69x8fRwbawxyEhtbXA/MfP?= =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?vLy/5CEhISE=?= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:30:35 +0900 Organization: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?x8G3o7XlIMCvx9C/+A==?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C11EC7.693216A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: 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Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15TkxM-000OqN-00; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:02:08 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15Tl1x-0001m7-00; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:06:53 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:06:53 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 02:25:44PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15TkxM-000OqN-00*$AK$YC9JhpDcjYn/z89jD/uUU0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Aug 6, j mckitrick wrote: > We hear all of the stories of how OEMs had to install Windows if they sold > MS-DOS, but how did MSFT get the clout to require this in the first place? > How did they go from being just-another-DOS to having the power to tell OEMs > what they could and could not do, and price-gouging them if they did not > comply? They licensed DOS to IBM who produced the original PC. It was a default with the first IBM's, which at first were un-cloneable until the BIOS got reverse engineered. All a bit before my time, but I suspect by that time DOS had become a standard, especially as plenty of business software would have been available for it by that time, whereas CP/M and GeOS would have been rather lacking. Once you own the industry standard, it's not that hard to bring OEMs into line with restrictive licenses regarding competing OSes, and before you know it, you have effectively a monopoly. :-) -- Paul Robinson ,--------------------------------------- Technical Director @ Akita | A computer lets you make more mistakes PO Box 604, Manchester, M60 3PR | than any other invention with the T: +44 (0) 161 228 6388 (F:6389)| possible exceptions of handguns and | Tequila - Mitch Ratcliffe `----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 7:13:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1412737B40B for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15Tl7y-000F2P-00; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:13:06 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f76ED6q64855; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:13:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:13:05 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Paul Robinson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010806151305.B64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 03:06:53PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 03:06:53PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: | On Aug 6, j mckitrick wrote: | | > We hear all of the stories of how OEMs had to install Windows if they sold | > MS-DOS, but how did MSFT get the clout to require this in the first place? | > How did they go from being just-another-DOS to having the power to tell OEMs | > what they could and could not do, and price-gouging them if they did not | > comply? | | They licensed DOS to IBM who produced the original PC. It was a default with | the first IBM's, which at first were un-cloneable until the BIOS got reverse | engineered. All a bit before my time, but I suspect by that time DOS had | become a standard, especially as plenty of business software would have been But couldn't you also get PC-DOS, Compaq-DOS, DR-DOS, etc? I remember reading that at the DOS level, software (and firmware) were simple enough to reverse engineer without much effort in comparison to today, where Windows has thousands of calls in the API. Why did OEMs allow themselves to be put in that position, when other DOS clone manufacturers would have gladly offered more favorable licensing than MSFT did? | available for it by that time, whereas CP/M and GeOS would have been rather | lacking. Ah, GeOS. I spent the better part of a few evenings last week browsing C64 nostalgia sites. :-) | Once you own the industry standard, it's not that hard to bring OEMs into | line with restrictive licenses regarding competing OSes, and before you know | it, you have effectively a monopoly. :-) | | -- | Paul Robinson ,--------------------------------------- | Technical Director @ Akita | A computer lets you make more mistakes | PO Box 604, Manchester, M60 3PR | than any other invention with the | T: +44 (0) 161 228 6388 (F:6389)| possible exceptions of handguns and | | Tequila - Mitch Ratcliffe | `----- jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 7:39: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3804137B405 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wiggy@wopr.akitanet.co.uk) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15TlV9-0000eQ-00; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:37:04 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15TlZh-0003iu-00; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:41:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:41:45 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010806154145.A12140@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20010806151305.B64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010806151305.B64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 03:13:05PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15TlV9-0000eQ-00*$AK$OyjX4yxazm7QuoTwUIQpG.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Aug 6, j mckitrick wrote: > But couldn't you also get PC-DOS, Compaq-DOS, DR-DOS, etc? I remember Only after the IBM PC BIOS had been reverse engineered and clones were becoming available. > reading that at the DOS level, software (and firmware) were simple enough to > reverse engineer without much effort in comparison to today, where Windows > has thousands of calls in the API. Why did OEMs allow themselves to be put > in that position, when other DOS clone manufacturers would have gladly > offered more favorable licensing than MSFT did? Probably with price breaks. Reverse engineering and ensuring compatability (plus, probably having to pay licensing fees for some of the tech) would make the whole process more expensive for competitors than for MS itself. That would mean that MS would have been able to compete very well with very large bulk OEMs, and where the larger suppliers go (and thereby setting the standards) the smaller ones will follow. If you were an OEM, would you sell a "clone" if it cost more than what is perceived as the de facto industry standard with all the relevant branding? Also, don't forget, reverse engineering is legally 'grey'. I seem to remember various companies getting into trouble with IBM and MS over various issues around reverse engineering. -- Paul Robinson ,--------------------------------------- Technical Director @ Akita | A computer lets you make more mistakes PO Box 604, Manchester, M60 3PR | than any other invention with the T: +44 (0) 161 228 6388 (F:6389)| possible exceptions of handguns and | Tequila - Mitch Ratcliffe `----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 7:44:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4854037B401 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f76EgYY27273; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:42:34 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:40:44 +0200 To: Paul Robinson , j mckitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:06 PM +0100 8/6/01, Paul Robinson wrote: > Once you own the industry standard, it's not that hard to bring OEMs into > line with restrictive licenses regarding competing OSes, and before you know > it, you have effectively a monopoly. :-) No, there were competitors like DR-DOS, and I recall at least one or two others as well. For a while, Microsoft was perfectly happy to produce customized versions of MS-DOS for various companies and otherwise bend over backwards to serve them, and as the same company that produced PC-DOS, they got the default call when another company wanted to create a clone. However, at some point, they stopped creating customized versions of MS-DOS, and started being more restrictive on what licensees could do with the product. I believe that the original questioner would be interested in knowing when that change happened, and under what circumstances. I'd be kind of interested in that answer, too. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 7:55:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E9437B403 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15TlnL-000GdG-00; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:55:51 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f76EtpM65648; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:55:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:55:50 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010806155550.C64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 04:40:44PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | I believe that the original questioner would be interested in | knowing when that change happened, and under what circumstances. I'd | be kind of interested in that answer, too. Exactly. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 8:36:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C9C37B401 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wiggy@wopr.akitanet.co.uk) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15TmOT-0002gv-00; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:34:13 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15TmSq-00077t-00; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:38:44 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:38:44 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Brad Knowles Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010806163844.D15418@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 04:40:44PM +0200 X-Scanner: exiscan *15TmOT-0002gv-00*$AK$2bzARMnTrV2Dz.AmTuUnz.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Aug 6, Brad Knowles wrote: > However, at some point, they stopped creating customized versions > of MS-DOS, and started being more restrictive on what licensees could > do with the product. Ahhh, I've got you. > I believe that the original questioner would be interested in > knowing when that change happened, and under what circumstances. I'd > be kind of interested in that answer, too. It's before my time, but I seem to remember reading some years ago that the point when that happened was when MSFT became more commercial and realised they owned the crown jewels - they effectively had the standard, and could increase market brand that was already well established as the "best DOS around" so to speak. Although, I would be interested to know *exactly* what happened if anybody on here was around back then. I'm only 23, and therefore MSFT is 3 years older than me! :-) -- Paul Robinson ,--------------------------------------- Technical Director @ Akita | A computer lets you make more mistakes PO Box 604, Manchester, M60 3PR | than any other invention with the T: +44 (0) 161 228 6388 (F:6389)| possible exceptions of handguns and | Tequila - Mitch Ratcliffe `----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 10:47:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [63.86.88.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D698C37B403 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:47:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BE6453A244; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:51:57 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Alexander Langer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: anyone at HAL2001? Message-ID: <20010806105157.H89408@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <20010806011048.B46129@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010806011048.B46129@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de>; from alex@big.endian.de on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 01:10:48AM +0200 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 01:10:48AM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Hello! > > Will anyone be at HAL2001 in the Netherlands next weekend? > > If so, let's meet there at a given point/time and talk about life, > stuff and how smart FreeBSD is. > I know from IRC some people will be there, so let me know. > > Alex Wished I could come, but money is too tight. Already missing most of the CCC between x-mas and new years. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 CCNA, CCNP now, CCIE hopeful soon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 11:40:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F3137B401 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1295"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K6TFJ0EY7A005WHJ@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:40:27 EST Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 14:44:25 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B6EE589.D1BF1319@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4DC0F079F7B4976B2A4EC82D" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20010806151305.B64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4DC0F079F7B4976B2A4EC82D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit j mckitrick wrote: > ... > But couldn't you also get PC-DOS, Compaq-DOS, DR-DOS, etc? I remember ... FWIW, Compaq DOS was the actually MS DOS plus utilities. I'm not sure if IBM's PC DOS was actually based on firsts MS DOS too. DR DOS is a completely different story with Caldera ending up compensated economically. Pedro. --------------4DC0F079F7B4976B2A4EC82D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------4DC0F079F7B4976B2A4EC82D-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 11:51:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F54B37B403 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17571; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010806124844.00d775b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 12:49:39 -0600 To: j mckitrick , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010806151305.B64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:13 AM 8/6/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >But couldn't you also get PC-DOS, Compaq-DOS, Both of these *were* MS-DOS. >DR-DOS ...came along much later, after Microsoft already had a monopoly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 6 12:49: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFF9F37B403 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:48:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 31752 invoked by uid 100); 6 Aug 2001 17:02:17 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:02:17 -0500 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > We hear all of the stories of how OEMs had to install Windows if they sold > MS-DOS, but how did MSFT get the clout to require this in the first place? > How did they go from being just-another-DOS to having the power to tell OEMs > what they could and could not do, and price-gouging them if they did not > comply? There are probably more answers to this than there are people who were paying attention at the time, so take any answers - including this one - with a grain of salt. Before the microcomputer revolution, IBM was the 800 pound gorilla in the computer market. They pretty much owned the large company mainframe market. They weren't quite so dominant in the minicomputer market, but were still a major player. The PC market was miniscule, and mostly ignored by the mini and mainframe makers. To get an idea of how dominate IBM was, that they ran ads claiming "Nobody was ever fired for buying IBM". I've been told this claim is no longer true. Likewise, they used to be quite proud of having *never* fired anyone. If you weren't performing, they'd quit giving you raises/promotions, and start relocating you regularly - leading to the "I've Been Moved" moniker for the company. If you left and later recommended hardware other than IBM, you could predict that the IBM sales reps would make negative references to your having left IBM. VisiCalc shows up and legitimizes PCs for office work. However, there was no PC from IBM, so few IT managers would approve company money for purchase of a PC, so the market stayed relatively small. Enter the IBM-PC. It's clearly inferior to hardware already on the market and cost far to much. The largest PC retailer of the time - ComputerLand - figured they'd never be able to sell one. However, it's from *IBM*. So all those IT managers start buying them, because "nobody was ever fired for buying IBM." The demand outstrips the supply, the clones start showing up, and the revolution is on. The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from MSFT. IBM had apparently wanted to purchase it outright, but Gates convinced them to pay a percentage instead. In doing so, Gates stole the revolution from IBM. By maintaining ownership of MS-DOS, Gates could sell a "generic" version - MS-DOS - for the clones. Since the business market was on IBM hardware, the clones needed to be able to run software written for that market. Radio Shack created a "better-than-IBM" compatible - better graphics, etc. - and it died because the available software wouldn't run on it properly. In other words, even then, if you couldn't run the popular software, you were pretty much dead. Thus, IBM's dominance in the mainframe market(*) translated to dominance on the PC hardware, but they were using MSFT software, thus giving MSFT software dominance. FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written it for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept delaying CP/M-86. I'm sure others will offer corrections. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. 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[209.245.136.130]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07165; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B6F94BD.AC1B2672@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:11:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: Brad Knowles , Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20010806155550.C64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > > | I believe that the original questioner would be interested in > | knowing when that change happened, and under what circumstances. I'd > | be kind of interested in that answer, too. > > Exactly. :-) PC-DOS was the OEM version for the IBM PC. MS-DOS was the version for public consumption; before that, it was strictly OEM versions, since the code had to match the BIOS entry points. The change started when Compaq did a clean-room reverse engineer of the IBM PC BIOS, but that was just a trickle... the thing that really set the industry down the "generic DOS distribution" path was when Phoenix, Inc. did another clean-room reverse engineer -- but unlike Compaq, licensed their BIOS to any clone vendor who wanted to claim "100% IBM Compatible". This was the "holy grail", which only IBM had, until Compaq announced "the first ever 100% IBM Compatible clone". There were several "also ran" DOS versions from third party vendors, but they never achieved the success of MS-DOS, largely because Microsoft Windows became tied to Microsoft's DOS version (Digital Research's DR-DOS fell from grace when Windows 95 went to beta, and refused to run on DR-DOS; this code was later removed, but the damage was done; the final nail in the coffin was the integration of DOS into Windows, so that when Windows 95 went final, it came bundled with an integrated MS-DOS: the final release mostly booted DOS, and then started Windows, with the major difference being the boot blocks were updated to say "Starting Windows 95..."). In any case, you should probably watch volume 1 and 2 of Robert X. Cringely's "Triumph of the Nerds" PBS series (the third one is basically a Microsoft commercial, and serves best as a means of keeping the other two videos securely wedged into the three-volume box). You might also want to read his book on the subject (I also don't recommend the 2.0 version of the same title). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 0:29:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F66937B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.136.130.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.136.130]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA28364; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:29:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > Enter the IBM-PC. It's clearly inferior to hardware already on the > market and cost far to much. The largest PC retailer of the time - > ComputerLand - figured they'd never be able to sell one. However, it's > from *IBM*. So all those IT managers start buying them, because > "nobody was ever fired for buying IBM." The demand outstrips the > supply, the clones start showing up, and the revolution is on. FWIW: In the original version, the IBM PC was powered by a Motorolla 68k. They switched to the Intel 8088 (*not* 8086, yet) because Motorolla could not commit volume, and IBM wanted a license to fabricate. > The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get > CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost > extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from > MSFT. IBM had apparently wanted to purchase it outright, but Gates > convinced them to pay a percentage instead. In doing so, Gates stole > the revolution from IBM. CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. The 86 was later. > Radio Shack created a "better-than-IBM" compatible - > better graphics, etc. - and it died because the available software > wouldn't run on it properly. In other words, even then, if you > couldn't run the popular software, you were pretty much dead. The Tandy 1000 was a late comer in the game. It used a non-standard UART, so the serial port never worked right with standard off-the-shelf software, right about the time that people started to get into modems, big-time. DEC also built a machine, the DEC Rainbow, that used a non-standard UART, and had the same problem. They finally went to a standard UART with the Revision B Rainbow II motherboard, but by then, it was too late, and they had missed their window. > FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and > bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written it > for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept delaying > CP/M-86. IBM attempted several times to contact Digital Research about licensing CP/M, but they never returned IBM's calls, and then their founder died. Cringely covers this in detail, both in his book, and the videos based on it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 1:11: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C55D137B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 01:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 61680 invoked by uid 100); 7 Aug 2001 08:11:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15215.41623.60778.718630@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 03:11:03 -0500 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get > > CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost > > extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from > > MSFT. IBM had apparently wanted to purchase it outright, but Gates > > convinced them to pay a percentage instead. In doing so, Gates stole > > the revolution from IBM. > CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. The 86 was later. You sure about those OSs? I don't recall ever seeing a CP/M-88, or MP/M for anything but 8080 based cpus. Looking through the Digital Research archives turns up things as obscure as CP/M-68K and CP/NET, but nothing for either CP/M-88 or MP/M-88. Since the 8086 predated the 8088 - the 8088 being an 8086 with an 8 bit external bus - it seems unlikely that DRI would have done the 8088 version first. Especially since 8088 hardware could run CP/M-86. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 5:43:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E0B37B414 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 05:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.121]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07437 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:42:58 -0400 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13070AC3D5@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David" To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was working in a large (then) electronics co. in the early 80's... There were two pivotal events in the Microsoft saga. One was DOS 3. The other was Windows 3. Let me elaborate... The company I was working for built products for the IBM plug-compatible mainframe market (as a sideline, actually.) One of our products was a 327X compatible display system. It had a completely proprietary communication scheme, so it was really only compatible at the channel attachment level. In the early 80's came the IBM pc. It took the market by storm (never underestimate the power of the cachet of those three letters). It was decided the latest version of our display was going to be PC compatible (sort of.) The problem was that the design people started with *too* clean of a slate. They built the thing with DR-DOS in mind. It worked rather well, but everybody wanted MSDOS, so they could run FOO. So, we licensed DOS from Microsoft, and rolled our own. Oh, did I mention we weren't *too* compatible? That was deliberate - this company had an announced strategy of locking customers in. And we even sold a few of these little things, with our very own DOS 2.2. Then came 3.0. Microsoft announced that there would be no licensing of customised versions. Period. The same disk that booted the IBM PC had better boot your box. Well, our little semi-compatible didn't. There was a considerable amount of re-engineering done (in things like the hardware interrupt structure.) It never worked well. And since none of the 'good stuff' ran on DR-DOS, that product was pretty much limited to its secondary roll - an IBM semi-compatible terminal. And was killed, far too long afterwards for the good of the company. The second event was Windows 3. Up till that time, Windows was a curiosity. I actually saw Windows 2 bundled with a scanner, but thats the only place I'd seen it. Windows 3 coincided with the general availablity of the '386. This was the combination needed to make Windows practical (for some values of practical.) [Oh, and it had the prettiest Solitaire game you ever did see. I firmly believe that game sold more windows 3.0 packages than all the salesman in Microsoft.] Important to remember, is that Microsoft is the only one in a position to come out with this at this time. Win 3 ran on top of DOS, using interfaces that Microsoft never published. Anyone trying to compete, had to deal with this huge hurdle (and things haven't changed much, have they?). Windows 3 upped the ante in the level of complexity a program needed to interface with it. And since it was, at the time, the only way to really *use* the capabilities of the newer processors, everyone wrote thier software to those complex APIs. And a vicious cycle was started. Microsoft has never let things like 'ethics' get in the way of making money, and they had the only game in town, at the beginning. Unlike IBM, they saw the danger in being too open (IBM figured it out, but by the time they tried pushing the Micro-Channel machines out the door, the market had grown past them.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 9:16:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 351CC37B410 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from notify-return-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@egroups.co.uk) X-eGroups-Return: notify-return-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@egroups.co.uk Received: from [10.1.10.141] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2001 16:15:27 -0000 Date: 7 Aug 2001 16:15:25 -0000 Message-ID: <997200925.2668.12669.f8@egroups.co.uk> From: freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only Moderator Reply-To: freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only-unsubscribe@egroups.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Welcome to the freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I've added you to my freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only group at eGroups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. As a member of this group, you may send messages to the entire group using just one email address: freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only@egroups.co.uk. eGroups also makes it easy to store photos and files, coordinate events, and more. Here's a description of the group: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This list is subscribed to various FreeBSD lists only for Dayan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here's my introductory message for you: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello, Welcome to the freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only group at eGroups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. 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If you feel this has happened, please notify us at abuse@egroups.co.uk P.S. If you would like to learn more about the freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only group, please visit http://www.egroups.co.uk/group/freebsd-lists-for-dayan-only and enter the following sign-in information: Email address: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Password: mrinktbqeinnfua This password has been randomly generated for you. Once you have signed in, you should change your password by visiting http://www.egroups.co.uk/myprofile To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 12:51:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luke.immure.com (luke.immure.com [207.8.42.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A305237B414 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 12:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@luke.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.immure.com (8.11.2/8.11.4) id f77JpCV50265 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:51:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:51:12 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 12:02:17PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am a 30-year (1965-1995) IBM retiree so you may want to take this with a grain of salt as well. I never saw any ads claiming "Nobody was ever fired for buying IBM", but that's not to say it didn't happen. Generally, those of us not in marketing, were constantly cautioned about such monopolistic sounding statements. Additionally, we had to sign written statements that we had read and understood the "IBM Business Practices Guidelines" booklet every year that strictly forbid such statements. Violation of the guidelines were grounds for dismissal (can't say I know of anyone being fired for this...in development you don't get that much opportunity to do such things). IBM has always _fired_ people for violation of "Conditions of Employment" (such as fighting, drugs on IBM property, etc.) or non-performance. It was difficult, as with any large Bureaucracy with deep pockets, though. The thing IBM had never done till the early 90's (even throughout the "Great Depression") was to lay anyone off. That changed, though. As for the rest (IBM-PC being inferior, etc.) I can't really comment. My personal experiences were apparently somewhat different from Mike's, though. (I don't think that _any_ of the PCs available in 1981 were particularly good.) IMHO the _most_ inferior part of the IBM-PC was (and still is) the PC-DOS operating system. Unfortunately, in 1981 we didn't have many alternatives, and they were all more expensive. Bob On Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 12:02:17PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > j mckitrick types: > > We hear all of the stories of how OEMs had to install Windows if they sold > > MS-DOS, but how did MSFT get the clout to require this in the first place? > > How did they go from being just-another-DOS to having the power to tell OEMs > > what they could and could not do, and price-gouging them if they did not > > comply? > > There are probably more answers to this than there are people who were > paying attention at the time, so take any answers - including this one > - with a grain of salt. > > Before the microcomputer revolution, IBM was the 800 pound gorilla in > the computer market. They pretty much owned the large company > mainframe market. They weren't quite so dominant in the minicomputer > market, but were still a major player. The PC market was miniscule, > and mostly ignored by the mini and mainframe makers. > > To get an idea of how dominate IBM was, that they ran ads claiming > "Nobody was ever fired for buying IBM". I've been told this claim is > no longer true. Likewise, they used to be quite proud of having > *never* fired anyone. If you weren't performing, they'd quit giving > you raises/promotions, and start relocating you regularly - leading to > the "I've Been Moved" moniker for the company. If you left and later > recommended hardware other than IBM, you could predict that the IBM > sales reps would make negative references to your having left IBM. > > VisiCalc shows up and legitimizes PCs for office work. However, there > was no PC from IBM, so few IT managers would approve company money for > purchase of a PC, so the market stayed relatively small. > > Enter the IBM-PC. It's clearly inferior to hardware already on the > market and cost far to much. The largest PC retailer of the time - > ComputerLand - figured they'd never be able to sell one. However, it's > from *IBM*. So all those IT managers start buying them, because > "nobody was ever fired for buying IBM." The demand outstrips the > supply, the clones start showing up, and the revolution is on. > > The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get > CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost > extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from > MSFT. IBM had apparently wanted to purchase it outright, but Gates > convinced them to pay a percentage instead. In doing so, Gates stole > the revolution from IBM. > > By maintaining ownership of MS-DOS, Gates could sell a "generic" > version - MS-DOS - for the clones. Since the business market was on > IBM hardware, the clones needed to be able to run software written for > that market. Radio Shack created a "better-than-IBM" compatible - > better graphics, etc. - and it died because the available software > wouldn't run on it properly. In other words, even then, if you > couldn't run the popular software, you were pretty much dead. > > Thus, IBM's dominance in the mainframe market(*) translated to > dominance on the PC hardware, but they were using MSFT software, thus > giving MSFT software dominance. > > FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and > bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written it > for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept delaying > CP/M-86. > > I'm sure others will offer corrections. > > > (*) FWIW, I've seen claims that IBM's hardware dominance came from the > IBM 360 series. It was the first computer to have both word operations > and byte addressability, making it the first computer that could > reasonably do both business and scientific computation. Being able to > buy one machine instead of two is a serious advantage, and it > obviously succeeded. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Bob Willcox All men profess honesty as long as they can. bob@vieo.com To believe all men honest would be folly. Austin, TX To believe none so is something worse. -- John Quincy Adams To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 14:11:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A0137B68A for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:09:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03170; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:08:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807135454.048feca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 13:58:07 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: Brad Knowles , Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B6F94BD.AC1B2672@mindspring.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20010806155550.C64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:11 AM 8/7/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >(Digital Research's DR-DOS fell from grace when >Windows 95 went to beta, and refused to run on DR-DOS; this >code was later removed, but the damage was done; Actually, it was Windows 3.1. I told the story in a Sm@rt Reseller article. That article provided a BSD-licensed assembly language program that resurrected the message for all to see. (You had to run it on a Windows 3.1 system, of course.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 14:25:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A6837B41B for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:24:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03451; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:23:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:23:16 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:29 AM 8/7/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >IBM attempted several times to contact Digital Research >about licensing CP/M, but they never returned IBM's calls, Actually, they did. In fact, IBM came to visit. But DRI founder Gary Killdall left his significant other in charge that day.... She freaked out about signing the NDAs regarding IBM's PC business and sent them away. Gary never got a second chance at fame or fortune, even when it was revealed that parts of MS-DOS 1.0 were direct translations of code from CP/M. >and then their founder died. Many years after that. It happened in 1979, and Kildall died in 1995. He died relatively young, at 52. From complications following a fight in a bar. --Brett "I may have invented it, but Microsoft made it popular." --IBM engineer David Bradley, inventor of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete key sequence To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 14:52:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8E537B412 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f77LqBY07505; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:52:11 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:43:57 +0200 To: Bob Willcox , chat list From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:51 PM -0500 8/7/01, Bob Willcox wrote: > IMHO the _most_ inferior part of the IBM-PC was (and > still is) the PC-DOS operating system. Unfortunately, in 1981 we didn't > have many alternatives, and they were all more expensive. Surely a free version of Unix based on BSD would not have been "expensive". -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 14:55:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE5B37B415 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03986; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:55:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807155426.0485aab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 15:55:14 -0600 To: Brad Knowles , Bob Willcox , chat list From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: References: <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:43 PM 8/7/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Surely a free version of Unix based on BSD would not have been "expensive". The only alternative at that point might have been, ironically, Microsoft Zenix. Which the PC, lacking an MMU, couldn't support. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 14:59:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FC2B37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 88117 invoked by uid 100); 7 Aug 2001 21:59:33 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:59:33 -0500 To: Bob Willcox Cc: chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Context removed due to top posting.] Bob Willcox types: > I am a 30-year (1965-1995) IBM retiree so you may want to take this with > a grain of salt as well. :-). > I never saw any ads claiming "Nobody was ever fired for buying IBM", > but that's not to say it didn't happen. I remember seeing them. I recall a picture of a man sleeping with that logo, the implication being that you didn't have to worry about being fired. I believe the comment about their sales tactics comes from "The Sun Never Sets on IBM". > IBM has always _fired_ people for violation of "Conditions of > Employment" (such as fighting, drugs on IBM property, etc.) or > non-performance. It was difficult, as with any large Bureaucracy with > deep pockets, though. The thing IBM had never done till the early 90's > (even throughout the "Great Depression") was to lay anyone off. That > changed, though. You're right - I misspoke, and it is indeed "layed off", not "fired." For the issue about being moved, see the aforementioned "The Sun Never Sets on IBM." Note that that deals mostly with the international division, which may have been slightly different than the US division. > As for the rest (IBM-PC being inferior, etc.) I can't really comment. > My personal experiences were apparently somewhat different from Mike's, > though. (I don't think that _any_ of the PCs available in 1981 were > particularly good.) IMHO the _most_ inferior part of the IBM-PC was (and > still is) the PC-DOS operating system. Unfortunately, in 1981 we didn't > have many alternatives, and they were all more expensive. The story about computerlands reaction to the IBM PC came from a history of computerland - possibly "Once upon a time in Computerland", but that doesn't sound quite right. In any case, at a time when Apple and CP/M-80 boxes were starting around $1000, the IBM PC showed up at nearly $2000, offering no obvious advantages. You could use more than 64K for a single program, but memory was so expensive that the point was nearly moot. For the price of an IBM PC with 128K you could get a high end CP/M system with bank switching, allowing you to use extra memory as disk cache. That same hardware could also run MP/M, meaning that you could buy a multi-user system - one user per bank - for not a lot more than the cost of a single-user IBM-PC. We had pretty good luck selling those to small offices - if we could get to them before they bought an IBM-PC. The real winner was OS/9, running on a 6809 system. Here you had a system that could compete with apple or CP/M on price, except it was running a multitasking operating system with a Unix-like kernel and architecture. Radio Shack eventually released a version for the Color Computer, which could be made multi-user by simply plugging a terminal into the serial port and starting a shell on it. High-end boxes used multiple 6809s - basically one per card - running OS/9 for things like graphics processors, I/O handlers, etc. Since OS/9 was designed to be anb embedded OS - and is still available as such, at least in the 68K version - this worked fairly well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 15:24:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B0B37B403 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f77MOOj16799; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:24:24 -0600 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:24:24 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Bob Willcox , chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807155426.0485aab0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 03:43 PM 8/7/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Surely a free version of Unix based on BSD would not have been "expensive". > >The only alternative at that point might have been, ironically, >Microsoft Zenix. Which the PC, lacking an MMU, couldn't support. You had us all going, right up to the point of you misspelling "Xenix". Nobody using a computer at the time would've forgotten Xenix: it worked splendidly on such greats as the PC/XT and the TRS-80 mod16 (neither of which had a MMU...). http://www.unicom.com/pw/sco-xenix >--Brett > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- There is no problem so great that it cannot be solved with suitable application of High Explosives. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 15:44:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA9137B40C for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04733; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:44:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807163907.044b1c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:44:23 -0600 To: John Galt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: Brad Knowles , Bob Willcox , chat list In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807155426.0485aab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:24 PM 8/7/2001, John Galt wrote: >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >>At 03:43 PM 8/7/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: >> >>> Surely a free version of Unix based on BSD would not have been "expensive". >> >>The only alternative at that point might have been, ironically, >>Microsoft Zenix. Which the PC, lacking an MMU, couldn't support. > >You had us all going, right up to the point of you misspelling "Xenix". That was a typo. I intended to hit the "X", but missed and hit the "Z" instead. >Nobody using a computer at the time would've forgotten Xenix: it worked >splendidly on such greats as the PC/XT and the TRS-80 mod16 (neither of >which had a MMU...). > >http://www.unicom.com/pw/sco-xenix IIRC, the TRS-80 Model 16 used bank switching as a primitive form of memory protection. Sort of a poor man's MMU. I wasn't aware that it ever COULD run on the XT without a daughterboard with a "real" CPU. (Microway and one or two other vendors were selling such boards, as I recall.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 16:31:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luke.immure.com (luke.immure.com [207.8.42.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77C837B40C for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@luke.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.immure.com (8.11.2/8.11.4) id f77NVG060640; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:31:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:31:16 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010807183116.D53464@luke.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 04:59:33PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 04:59:33PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > [Context removed due to top posting.] > > Bob Willcox types: > > I am a 30-year (1965-1995) IBM retiree so you may want to take this with > > a grain of salt as well. > > :-). > > > I never saw any ads claiming "Nobody was ever fired for buying IBM", > > but that's not to say it didn't happen. > > I remember seeing them. I recall a picture of a man sleeping with that > logo, the implication being that you didn't have to worry about being > fired. I believe the comment about their sales tactics comes from "The > Sun Never Sets on IBM". Never saw that one. Certainly this attitude persists today vis-a-vis Microsoft. I get that attitude here in the startup company I work for now (and I am one of the co-founders). If you use Windows and it breaks its not your fault. On the other hand, demand to use FreeBSD and if it fails you're in for it. > > > IBM has always _fired_ people for violation of "Conditions of > > Employment" (such as fighting, drugs on IBM property, etc.) or > > non-performance. It was difficult, as with any large Bureaucracy with > > deep pockets, though. The thing IBM had never done till the early 90's > > (even throughout the "Great Depression") was to lay anyone off. That > > changed, though. > > You're right - I misspoke, and it is indeed "layed off", not "fired." > For the issue about being moved, see the aforementioned "The Sun Never > Sets on IBM." Note that that deals mostly with the international > division, which may have been slightly different than the US division. True. IBM World Trade probably wasn't bound by the US Consent Decree of 1956 (I believe it was). BTW, the reason IBM didn't lay folks off prior to then was due to (mostly) culteral issues. The company had been sufficiently profitable for a very long time, all the time continuing to hire people. The attrition rate had always been extremely low. Everyone believed that as long as they continued to perform well they would be guaranteed a job. It wasn't till the mid to late '80s that the realization set in that the business was changing (mostly due to the PC) and that the company could no longer afford the appx. 450,000 employees. > > > As for the rest (IBM-PC being inferior, etc.) I can't really comment. > > My personal experiences were apparently somewhat different from Mike's, > > though. (I don't think that _any_ of the PCs available in 1981 were > > particularly good.) IMHO the _most_ inferior part of the IBM-PC was (and > > still is) the PC-DOS operating system. Unfortunately, in 1981 we didn't > > have many alternatives, and they were all more expensive. > > The story about computerlands reaction to the IBM PC came from a > history of computerland - possibly "Once upon a time in Computerland", > but that doesn't sound quite right. > > In any case, at a time when Apple and CP/M-80 boxes were starting > around $1000, the IBM PC showed up at nearly $2000, offering no > obvious advantages. You could use more than 64K for a single program, > but memory was so expensive that the point was nearly moot. For the > price of an IBM PC with 128K you could get a high end CP/M system with > bank switching, allowing you to use extra memory as disk cache. That > same hardware could also run MP/M, meaning that you could buy a > multi-user system - one user per bank - for not a lot more than the > cost of a single-user IBM-PC. We had pretty good luck selling those to > small offices - if we could get to them before they bought an IBM-PC. Well, to me anyway, coming from an IBM mainframe background, my first IBM-PC with only 128KB of memory and two 160KB diskette drives seemed pretty bleak. It wasn't till I could get a hard disk on it (probably in the '85 time frame) that it seemed like a useful computer to me. > > The real winner was OS/9, running on a 6809 system. Here you had a > system that could compete with apple or CP/M on price, except it was > running a multitasking operating system with a Unix-like kernel and > architecture. Radio Shack eventually released a version for the Color > Computer, which could be made multi-user by simply plugging a terminal > into the serial port and starting a shell on it. High-end boxes used > multiple 6809s - basically one per card - running OS/9 for things like > graphics processors, I/O handlers, etc. Since OS/9 was designed to be > anb embedded OS - and is still available as such, at least in the 68K > version - this worked fairly well. I have had no experience with any of these. I began working on AIX for the RT in 1983, I fell in love with Unix (not necessarily AIX:-), and have been using some version of it ever since. :-) Bob > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- Bob Willcox All men profess honesty as long as they can. bob@vieo.com To believe all men honest would be folly. Austin, TX To believe none so is something worse. -- John Quincy Adams To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 17:17:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luke.immure.com (luke.immure.com [207.8.42.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD5D37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 17:17:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@luke.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.immure.com (8.11.2/8.11.4) id f780HLW62762; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:17:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:17:21 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010807191721.A62228@luke.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org> <20010807183116.D53464@luke.immure.com> <15216.33324.9869.833842@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15216.33324.9869.833842@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 07:05:00PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 07:05:00PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Bob Willcox types: > > Never saw that one. Certainly this attitude persists today vis-a-vis > > Microsoft. I get that attitude here in the startup company I work for > > now (and I am one of the co-founders). If you use Windows and it breaks > > its not your fault. On the other hand, demand to use FreeBSD and if it > > fails you're in for it. > > I don't think that's an IBM/MS thing, I think it's standard for > support folks. You can't support everything that anyone can drag in, > so people who want to use tools you don't support have to do it > themselves. Yep. I have to agree with this. > > > Well, to me anyway, coming from an IBM mainframe background, my first > > IBM-PC with only 128KB of memory and two 160KB diskette drives seemed > > pretty bleak. It wasn't till I could get a hard disk on it (probably in > > the '85 time frame) that it seemed like a useful computer to me. > > My CP/M-80 box from that era - 256K of ram and a pair of 320K drives - > did things the IBM mainframe I had access to couldn't do. Ditto for > the Unix and the VMS system I was using then. Mostly, it was that my > box was mine, so I could install all the tools I needed. The > institutional systems weren't mine, so while the tools they had were > better than I those I could afford, none of them had all the tools I > needed. Things haven't really changed in that respect, it's just that > my tools are now *much* better than they used to be. Within a year of purchasing my first PC (in 1981) I had upgraded it to more RAM and double sided diskette drives (I believe these were 360K each by then). This made using it much more convenient (reduced the diskette swapping ritual). As I remember, the main thing that I missed on my original PC was a full screen editor. I was familiar with the various full screen editors on the mainframes (using 3270s) and it took some adjustment to get used to edlin (which I despised). Later, on the Microport AT system, I learned vi (which took some time to do). I have been using vi ever since. Bob > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- Bob Willcox All men profess honesty as long as they can. bob@vieo.com To believe all men honest would be folly. Austin, TX To believe none so is something worse. -- John Quincy Adams To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 18:43:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 29B0737B419 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 95089 invoked by uid 100); 8 Aug 2001 01:43:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15216.39229.89700.679362@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:43:25 -0500 To: Bob Willcox Cc: chat list Subject: OFR (Was: How did the MSFT monopoly start?) In-Reply-To: <20010807191721.A62228@luke.immure.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org> <20010807183116.D53464@luke.immure.com> <15216.33324.9869.833842@guru.mired.org> <20010807191721.A62228@luke.immure.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bob Willcox types: > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 07:05:00PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > My CP/M-80 box from that era - 256K of ram and a pair of 320K drives - > > did things the IBM mainframe I had access to couldn't do. Ditto for > > the Unix and the VMS system I was using then. Mostly, it was that my > > box was mine, so I could install all the tools I needed. The > > institutional systems weren't mine, so while the tools they had were > > better than I those I could afford, none of them had all the tools I > > needed. Things haven't really changed in that respect, it's just that > > my tools are now *much* better than they used to be. > As I remember, the main thing that I missed on my original PC was a full > screen editor. I was familiar with the various full screen editors on > the mainframes (using 3270s) and it took some adjustment to get used to > edlin (which I despised). Later, on the Microport AT system, I learned > vi (which took some time to do). I have been using vi ever since. That's actually amusing. The IBM box was running MVS with TSO for timesharing, and only had a few 3270 attached to it. I don't think I ever used a fullscreen editor on it. On the other hand, I had a commercial ersatz emacs - MINCE - for the CP/M-80 system. It came with full source in C so I could customize it to my own tastes. Only Unix had better tools for C software development - at least initially. VMS later added a reasonable C compiler, and I still prefer the VMS "run" facility to make, at least for small projects. I managed to install a C compiler on the IBM, but it was pretty pitiful. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 21: 7:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A0F237B403 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nitedog@silly.pikachu.org) Received: (qmail 30322 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2001 03:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nitedog) (65.6.158.15) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2001 03:30:12 -0000 Message-ID: <000c01c11fbf$5cad9960$0300a8c0@nitedog> Reply-To: "Randall Hamilton" From: "Randall Hamilton" To: Subject: clue manpage Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 00:05:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C11F9D.D581BAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C11F9D.D581BAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just thought it would really save time, and it has gotten good feedback. commit this puppy :) would make things in #freebsdhelp alot easier anyway ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C11F9D.D581BAA0 Content-Type: application/x-compressed; name="clue.1.gz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="clue.1.gz" H4sICAtXcDsAA2NsdWUuMQB1kc1u2zAQhO98ioGLNP0TIwMNUAfowXHU2kVrp5F9igKEklYSYZoU RDqq3r6kHBS+9ECAy91vdofLswle5I0lh/7w9Zrx7RLp4iFJ1phiMo3x46gxnc1mE8ZlBQ1eWvxG 9vY83v2L3Wv++fks3OHykvHdAp8ZT5dYz38lrFBHQhbBNeSP1DXohboBLXXWaGii0jI21u/S+feE 8VuoQf9hj+GWRVm1yo3ZZ9U9ewLzUeNce3N11fc9r42pFfHCHEKa592r0F3ina3ut6vNmvEVFn4E Ji0ElPH9lbEOQpeoTFcb50hD2JYKB6mhZEXjUFQiHyCUAmuOB6Htp5HxMtZ0aoASxT648YzIzdFh Fl/AVMHngQNbb7cxLZ2ePMW8RitqCgrOeKzoSFjC+D+dcEHLN7yOoy/xBT/5SJME85/pJvzEh3eP cTR7en/KzHfb5eYhZVo6Kk2NCLd00jiYzmiLXrrGGx7VrZPFPgz6puqIcluyb0o4J8ljdyRUwMb6 sKNSSO8ucLkke041pFrWyJJELwaPKjH4bGA+5ihNr+H3+V/wL3cFrtWAAgAA ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C11F9D.D581BAA0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 21:25:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luke.immure.com (luke.immure.com [207.8.42.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E5A37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@luke.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.immure.com (8.11.2/8.11.4) id f784PbJ72021; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:25:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:25:37 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat list Subject: Re: OFR (Was: How did the MSFT monopoly start?) Message-ID: <20010807232537.A65486@luke.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org> <20010807183116.D53464@luke.immure.com> <15216.33324.9869.833842@guru.mired.org> <20010807191721.A62228@luke.immure.com> <15216.39229.89700.679362@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15216.39229.89700.679362@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:43:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:43:25PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > That's actually amusing. The IBM box was running MVS with TSO for > timesharing, and only had a few 3270 attached to it. I don't think I > ever used a fullscreen editor on it. On the other hand, I had a > commercial ersatz emacs - MINCE - for the CP/M-80 system. It came with > full source in C so I could customize it to my own tastes. We had several 370s and many 3270s. Some of the 370s ran MVS, some VM/370. In fact, prior to the start of the AIX project, all we had were 370s here in Austin. The full screen editors the we used (SPF and xedit) were quite tailored to the 3270 hardware, which was half-duplex block transfer. Not interactive in the sense of today's editors. You'd type in up to a screen full of data then hit (usually enter) to send it to the system. Pretty pathetic compared to what we use now days, but still a lot better than what was initially available on the PC, and it did reduce the interrupt load on the system. Of course, quickly following the introduction of the PC, a number of internally developed full screen editors popped up within IBM. Some of them were pretty good and were eventually marketed (or bundled with PC-DOS and/or OS/2). There was one called "v" that I still occasionally use when forced to edit something on MS-DOS. Its small size makes it easy to fit on a diskette and it is a bit like vi (hence its name). > > Only Unix had better tools for C software development - at least > initially. VMS later added a reasonable C compiler, and I still prefer > the VMS "run" facility to make, at least for small projects. I managed > to install a C compiler on the IBM, but it was pretty pitiful. I never had to use a C compiler on an IBM mainframe (we were using PLS and 370 assembler then), thankfully. It (the C compiler) was rather awful as I recall. Bob -- Bob Willcox All men profess honesty as long as they can. bob@vieo.com To believe all men honest would be folly. Austin, TX To believe none so is something worse. -- John Quincy Adams To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 23: 2:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A593137B409 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 087B96ACDC; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:32:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:32:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 03:23:16PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 15:23:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:29 AM 8/7/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> IBM attempted several times to contact Digital Research >> about licensing CP/M, but they never returned IBM's calls, > > Actually, they did. In fact, IBM came to visit. But DRI > founder Gary Killdall left his significant other in > charge that day.... She freaked out about signing the > NDAs regarding IBM's PC business and sent them away. That's the first time I've heard that version. The one I heard was that Gary didn't want to meet them and went out flying. Does anybody know when this was? I was at a conference in London in early September 1980, and Gary and Bill Gates ("who?" I asked; I knew very well who Gary was) were supposed to be there, Bill to talk about the new Microsoft Operating System, XENIX (I kid you not). Bill did a no-show, apparently because of some urgent business, but Gary showed up. >> and then their founder died. > > Many years after that. It happened in 1979, and Kildall > died in 1995. He died relatively young, at 52. From > complications following a fight in a bar. Again, the first time I have heard that version. I heard he fell down the stairs. Any background? > "I may have invented it, but Microsoft made it popular." > > --IBM engineer David Bradley, inventor > of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete key sequence Note that the reboot sequence for CP/M was simply ^C. "Inventing" Ctrl-Alt-Del was simply a matter of finding a new mapping for the function. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 23:14: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2947B37B406 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 785E76ACDD; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:44:10 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:44:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Meyer Cc: Bob Willcox , chat list Subject: Mince: (Was: OFR (Was: How did the MSFT monopoly start?)) Message-ID: <20010808154410.M78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <15216.25797.153039.786261@guru.mired.org> <20010807183116.D53464@luke.immure.com> <15216.33324.9869.833842@guru.mired.org> <20010807191721.A62228@luke.immure.com> <15216.39229.89700.679362@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15216.39229.89700.679362@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:43:25PM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 20:43:25 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Bob Willcox types: >> On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 07:05:00PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: >>> My CP/M-80 box from that era - 256K of ram and a pair of 320K drives - >>> did things the IBM mainframe I had access to couldn't do. Ditto for >>> the Unix and the VMS system I was using then. Mostly, it was that my >>> box was mine, so I could install all the tools I needed. The >>> institutional systems weren't mine, so while the tools they had were >>> better than I those I could afford, none of them had all the tools I >>> needed. Things haven't really changed in that respect, it's just that >>> my tools are now *much* better than they used to be. >> As I remember, the main thing that I missed on my original PC was a full >> screen editor. I was familiar with the various full screen editors on >> the mainframes (using 3270s) and it took some adjustment to get used to >> edlin (which I despised). Later, on the Microport AT system, I learned >> vi (which took some time to do). I have been using vi ever since. > > That's actually amusing. The IBM box was running MVS with TSO for > timesharing, and only had a few 3270 attached to it. I don't think I > ever used a fullscreen editor on it. On the other hand, I had a > commercial ersatz emacs - MINCE - for the CP/M-80 system. It came with > full source in C so I could customize it to my own tastes. Ah, yes. "MINCE Is Not Complete Emacs". That's how I got involved with Emacs. After getting a PC, I still ran MINCE in CP/M emulation (using a NEC V20 chip, which incorporated both 8088 and 8085 command sets). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 23:20: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30B937B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AC0D06ACD2; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:50:12 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:50:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Gray Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010808155012.N78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13070AC3D5@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13070AC3D5@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com>; from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:42:54AM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] Your MUA created alternate long and short lines, and omitted the original text. On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 8:42:54 -0400, David Gray wrote: > I was working in a large (then) electronics co. in the early 80's... > > There were two pivotal events in the Microsoft saga. One was DOS > 3. The other was Windows 3. Let me elaborate... > > The company I was working for built products for the IBM > plug-compatible mainframe market (as a sideline, actually.) One of > our products was a 327X compatible display system. It had a > completely proprietary communication scheme, so it was really only > compatible at the channel attachment level. In the early 80's came > the IBM pc. It took the market by storm (never underestimate the > power of the cachet of those three letters). It was decided the > latest version of our display was going to be PC compatible (sort > of.) The problem was that the design people started with *too* clean > of a slate. They built the thing with DR-DOS in mind. It worked > rather well, but everybody wanted MSDOS, so they could run FOO. So, > we licensed DOS from Microsoft, and rolled our own. Oh, did I > mention we weren't *too* compatible? That was deliberate - this > company had an announced strategy of locking customers in. And we > even sold a few of these little things, with our very own DOS > 2.2. You weren't exactly alone with that scenario. Just about all the bandwagon machines from other established manufacturers were subtly different, because that's the way we did business in those days. When the el cheapo commodity clones came out, we looked down on them because they had absolutely no originality. You'll still see vestiges of this approach today with Compaq, who seem to insist on being incompatible. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 23:24:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942B637B405 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:24:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 107706ACE2; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:54:20 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:54:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Paul Robinson Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010808155419.O78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010806150653.C96762@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 03:06:53PM +0100 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 6 August 2001 at 15:06:53 +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Aug 6, j mckitrick wrote: > >> We hear all of the stories of how OEMs had to install Windows if they sold >> MS-DOS, but how did MSFT get the clout to require this in the first place? >> How did they go from being just-another-DOS to having the power to tell OEMs >> what they could and could not do, and price-gouging them if they did not >> comply? > > They licensed DOS to IBM who produced the original PC. Note that they didn't write DOS. They bought it from Seattle Computer Products, who called it (officially) 86/DOS and unofficially QDOS (Quick and Dirty OS). I got version 1.0 with some hardware from SCP in November 1980. It was basically a CP/M clone because Digital Research had been dragging their feet and still hadn't released CP/M 86. > It was a default with the first IBM's, which at first were > un-cloneable until the BIOS got reverse engineered. No, they cloned them long before that, ripping off the IBM BIOS to do so. People got quite upset when, in about 1984, IBM pointed (quite politely) that this was in breach of copyright. > All a bit before my time, but I suspect by that time DOS had become > a standard, especially as plenty of business software would have > been available for it by that time, whereas CP/M and GeOS would have > been rather lacking. CP/M 86 was basically just too late. Also, it came from a competitor of Microsoft. Initially there wasn't much to choose from between the two systems. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 23:27:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB3837B405 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E72126ACDD; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:58:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:58:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Galt Cc: Brett Glass , Brad Knowles , Bob Willcox , chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010808155809.P78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010807155426.0485aab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from galt@inconnu.isu.edu on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 04:24:24PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 16:24:24 -0600, John Galt wrote: > On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >> At 03:43 PM 8/7/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: >> >>> Surely a free version of Unix based on BSD would not have been "expensive". >> >> The only alternative at that point might have been, ironically, >> Microsoft Zenix. Which the PC, lacking an MMU, couldn't support. > > You had us all going, right up to the point of you misspelling "Xenix". > Nobody using a computer at the time would've forgotten Xenix: it worked > splendidly on such greats as the PC/XT and the TRS-80 mod16 (neither of > which had a MMU...). The MMU wasn't the issue. The original PC came with 16 kB memory standard, and no hard disk. Particularly the latter was the issue. When the PC/XT came out, IBM brought out its own UNIX, PC/IX, a System III implementation. It required 256 kB memory. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 7 23:35:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0AD37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3B6E46ACD2; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:05:51 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:05:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:29:20AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 0:29:20 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Mike Meyer wrote: >> Enter the IBM-PC. It's clearly inferior to hardware already on the >> market and cost far to much. The largest PC retailer of the time - >> ComputerLand - figured they'd never be able to sell one. However, it's >> from *IBM*. So all those IT managers start buying them, because >> "nobody was ever fired for buying IBM." The demand outstrips the >> supply, the clones start showing up, and the revolution is on. > > FWIW: In the original version, the IBM PC was powered by a > Motorolla 68k. Not in any released version. It's possible, even probable, that they played with it during the design phase. > They switched to the Intel 8088 (*not* 8086, yet) because Motorolla > could not commit volume, and IBM wanted a license to fabricate. This seems unlikely. Where do you get this from? At the time, the PC project was just another pie-in-the sky project, an attempt to do better than the failed 5100. >> The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get >> CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost >> extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from >> MSFT. IBM had apparently wanted to purchase it outright, but Gates >> convinced them to pay a percentage instead. In doing so, Gates stole >> the revolution from IBM. > > CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. There never ware operating systems with these names. It came with optional CP/M 86. I don't know about MP/M 86, but it's quite possible. > The 86 was later. The 86 was earlier. 1976. The 8088 was just a low-cost 8086, with an 8 bit bus, enabling machines to be made with a lower chip count. The processor core was almost identical; I think the only difference was the pipeline length. I suspect that the part count was what really caused IBM to go with the 8088 and not the 68000; the former needed only 8 memory chips (1 bit wide), the latter would have needed 32. >> Radio Shack created a "better-than-IBM" compatible - >> better graphics, etc. - and it died because the available software >> wouldn't run on it properly. In other words, even then, if you >> couldn't run the popular software, you were pretty much dead. > > The Tandy 1000 was a late comer in the game. It used a > non-standard UART, so the serial port never worked right > with standard off-the-shelf software, right about the > time that people started to get into modems, big-time. > > DEC also built a machine, the DEC Rainbow, that used a > non-standard UART, and had the same problem. They finally > went to a standard UART with the Revision B Rainbow II > motherboard, but by then, it was too late, and they had > missed their window. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the UART which killed these machines. Was that the Z-80 SIO? >> FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and >> bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written >> it for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept >> delaying CP/M-86. Ah, I missed this before. Yes, this is almost exactly correct. The company was Seattle Computer Products, SCP. The rest is exactly correct. > IBM attempted several times to contact Digital Research about > licensing CP/M, but they never returned IBM's calls, So how come the PC was released with optional CP/M? > and then their founder died. We can be pretty sure that if he had stayed alive, it wouldn't have made any difference, given the length of "then". > Cringely covers this in detail, both in his book, and the videos > based on it. Does he suggest a temporal relationship between the OS choice and the death of Gary Kildall? That would be very wrong. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 0:32: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EADC37B409 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 00:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.139.128.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.139.128]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00699; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 00:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B70EB04.9805B9E3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:32:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Bob Willcox , chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <20010807145112.C39962@luke.immure.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807155426.0485aab0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:43 PM 8/7/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > Surely a free version of Unix based on BSD would not have been "expensive". > > The only alternative at that point might have been, ironically, > Microsoft Zenix. Which the PC, lacking an MMU, couldn't support. Xenix didn't support VM until much later in its life; I ran Xenix for the x86 on a 10MB HD original PC XT system. Everything had to compile and run in Small model. The 286 supported both Small and Medium model, which gave you access to more than 64k of data space at once... man, was that living! 8-) Xenix also ran on Sun 3 hardware, but was never released on it outside Microsoft's walls, and ran on 68000 hardware from Radio Shack: the Tandy 6000. It used the two CPU fault restart trick... 8-) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 1:43:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25F837B403; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.139.128.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.139.128]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27964; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B70FBEB.BB315B93@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 01:44:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Actually, they did. In fact, IBM came to visit. But DRI > > founder Gary Killdall left his significant other in > > charge that day.... She freaked out about signing the > > NDAs regarding IBM's PC business and sent them away. > > That's the first time I've heard that version. The one I heard was > that Gary didn't want to meet them and went out flying. > > Does anybody know when this was? I was at a conference in London in > early September 1980, and Gary and Bill Gates ("who?" I asked; I knew > very well who Gary was) were supposed to be there, Bill to talk about > the new Microsoft Operating System, XENIX (I kid you not). Bill did a > no-show, apparently because of some urgent business, but Gary showed > up. Note: I recommend this book; I also recommend the videos, and I recommend the web site (it includes full transcripts, Q&A, links for buying the book and videos, etc.): http://www.pbs.org/nerds/ From Accidental Empires, by Robert X. Cringely (Chapter Seven: "All IBM Stories Are True"): The IBM Personal Computer that eventually came to market in late 1981 came from a renegade independent business unit based in Boca Raton, Florida. This wasn't IBM's first try at developing a microcomputer. At least four other designs has been proposed to management in Armonk, including one earlier design from Boca. The major difference between the project that eventually produced the IBM PC and these earlier efforts was that the group of men brought together in July 1980 by Entry Systems Division (ESD) lab director Bill Lowe were pledged to do their work in real time, not IBM time. They had just one year to bring their product to market. [ ... ] But Lowe and his crew, breaking the first of many rules, decided to buy everything. They started by looking for software. Since Lowe wanted to buy his software from an established vendor, CP/M looked like his only choice. CP/M came from Gary Kildall's Digital Research, only for some reason IBM didn't know that. The usually infallable briefing book said that CP/M was a Microsoft product. In probably his last gracious gesture toward a competitor, Bill Gates told the caller from IBM that a mistake had been made, and gave them Kildall's number in Pacific Grove. [ ... ] The whole plan depends on getting reliable suppliers, so Lowe sends his lieutenants out to Digital Research and Microsoft to find out what kind of people these are. When the IBMers arrive in Pacific Grove, California, to talk with Gary Kildall at Digital Research, he wasn't there. Despite his appointment with IBM, Gary had gone flying in his small plane. Not a good first impression. With Gary out flying around, the people left at Digital Research didn't know what these IBM guys wanted to talk about, and the IBM guys wouldn't talk about anything until a nondisclosure agreement was signed. [ ... nondisclosure, the 1956 consent decree, etc. ... ] Jump back to Pacific Grove, where Digital Research didn't even have a nondisclosure agreement of its own. Gary was still flying around somewhere over the Santa Cruz mountains, while Dorothy Kildall squinted at the IBM nondisclosure agreement, imagining her new house with its stable and hot tub going on the auction block following an IBM legal action. She refused to sign, so the men from IBM left town, having never revealed the plans for the Acorn [IBM PC] but still needing an operating system. [ ... Gary Kildall died from alien experiments ... ] > > Many years after that. It happened in 1979, and Kildall > > died in 1995. He died relatively young, at 52. From > > complications following a fight in a bar. > > Again, the first time I have heard that version. I heard he fell down > the stairs. Any background? http://www.cadigital.com/kildall.htm "Gary Kildall died in July 1994 at the age of 52. The computer media, with a few small exceptions, ignored his passing. The Circumstances of his death are pretty murky. One report attributed it to a fall from a ladder, another an incident at a bar, and another to a heart attack." http://www.kzin.com/pchist/drdoshst.htm "Gary Kildall died on July 11, 1994 at the age 52. There are many conflicting stories as to how he died, many say that he killed himself (or that was the industry rumors). It seems some were trying to keep the story quiet, and that has only given the story credence. The story I believe is that he was shot in a barroom altercation (that had no relevance to anything else), and that everyone is keeping it quiet due to some legal issues." -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 2:17: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF6937B413; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 02:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.139.128.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.139.128]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA18115; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 02:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:17:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: Obviously, like my off the list references to the livelock papers I tried to send you, the direct email to you will bounce from your overambitious "spam" bouncer, which insists I'm a spammer because Earthlink bought my ISP and assignned me a mindspring address... Oh well... > > They switched to the Intel 8088 (*not* 8086, yet) because Motorolla > > could not commit volume, and IBM wanted a license to fabricate. > > This seems unlikely. Where do you get this from? At the time, the PC > project was just another pie-in-the sky project, an attempt to do > better than the failed 5100. Please see the quote from the Cringly book, and the URL for the full transcripts of "Triumph of the Nerds" on the PBS site. > > CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. > > There never ware operating systems with these names. It came with > optional CP/M 86. I don't know about MP/M 86, but it's quite > possible. It was 80, not 88 or 86. Yes, I remember both CP/M-86 and MP/M-86; I ran them on my Amiga under the emulater. I ran the CP/M-80 on my Timex Sinclair Z80, and the Z80 cartridge for my C-64 and Z80 emulators in a lot of places (I still have Nevada COBOL and Nevada FORTRAN on floppy, as well as the Z80 Aztec C compiler). > > The 86 was later. > > The 86 was earlier. 1976. The 8088 was just a low-cost 8086, with an > 8 bit bus, enabling machines to be made with a lower chip count. The > processor core was almost identical; I think the only difference was > the pipeline length. I suspect that the part count was what really > caused IBM to go with the 8088 and not the 68000; the former needed > only 8 memory chips (1 bit wide), the latter would have needed 32. Lowe is quoted as wanting volume off the shelf parts; in fact, Gates tried to steer him toward a 16 bit processor, but the IBM confidentiality agreement urged him not to reveal confidential information, so he didn't reveal what he knew about CP/M-86, so the OS was not an issue: (Also from Cringely's book): Choosing a 16-bit processor was easy. Intel, Motorola, and National Semiconductor were all shipping 16-bit processors at the time. Intel had the 8086 and 8088 processors, Motorola had the 68000, and National had its 16032. The National processor was elegant and powerful; the Motorola was powerful and easy to write software for; the Intel 8086 was fairly powerful but had an awkward memory architecture; the Intel 8088 was an 8086 without the power. Of course, IBM chose the 8088--the least attractive of all the processors from a technical standpoint. In this case, technical considerations took a back seat to IBM's manufacturing and marketing concerns. The plan was to build a computer without any custom components--just off-the-shelf parts from major semiconductor makers. The 8088 was the only 16-bit processor for which there was available a full complement ot the support chips required to build a computer. Motorola and National were still working on their 16-bit support chips, as was Intel for the 8086. But the 8088 was a 16-bit processor in an 8-bit body, since it used an 8-bit data bus--sending and receiving data 8 bits at a time and then processing them in 16-bit mode. This 8-bit bus is what made the 8088 less powerful than the other contenders, but it also made it possible for the 8088 to use support chips intended for the earlier 8080 family of Intel 8-bit processors. Since the 8088 was the only processor that could be used without developing custom support chips, it was the only processor that fit IBM's needs. [ ... DEC and Tandy can't make a serial port work to save their life ... ] > I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the UART which killed these machines. > Was that the Z-80 SIO? It was a Zilog UART. But I think you are maybe thinking of the Z80 based serial processor in the Tandy-16 and retrofit Tandy 6000, which had 8 inch floppies and could have 14 inch 5M hard drives added, for ungodly cost... > >> FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and > >> bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written > >> it for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept > >> delaying CP/M-86. > > Ah, I missed this before. Yes, this is almost exactly correct. The > company was Seattle Computer Products, SCP. The rest is exactly > correct. The price tag for the rights was $50,000. Gates also knew about CP/M-86, but didn't disclose it, even though QDOS had code taken line-for-line from CP/M. > > IBM attempted several times to contact Digital Research about > > licensing CP/M, but they never returned IBM's calls, > > So how come the PC was released with optional CP/M? That was optional later. Originally, it wasn't. Mostly, it was because there were tools that would run under it with a simple cross-assembler. > > and then their founder died. > > We can be pretty sure that if he had stayed alive, it wouldn't have > made any difference, given the length of "then". Yeah. > > Cringely covers this in detail, both in his book, and the videos > > based on it. > > Does he suggest a temporal relationship between the OS choice and the > death of Gary Kildall? That would be very wrong. No. That was me, converting his death to a plane wreck... if he died six other ways, a seventh wasn't going to make him any more or less dead. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 5:31: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE9F37B40B; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 05:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from tbird-850 ([66.57.24.166]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:02:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:07:56 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <37466058997.20010808070756@nc.rr.com> To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-reply-To: <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wednesday, August 08, 2001, 2:02:30 AM, Greg Lehey wrote: >> "I may have invented it, but Microsoft made it popular." >> >> --IBM engineer David Bradley, inventor >> of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete key sequence GL> Note that the reboot sequence for CP/M was simply ^C. "Inventing" GL> Ctrl-Alt-Del was simply a matter of finding a new mapping for the GL> function. GL> Greg David Bradley teaches in the Electrical and Computer Engineering department at my university now and makes it a point that everybody knows the above statement. ( http://www.ece.ncsu.edu ) -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 5:42:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ---- (c242.h061016011.is.net.tw [61.16.11.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8A6C37B41B; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from linux18@ms68.url.com.tw) Received: from ara by tcts.seed.net.tw with SMTP id guPxsftzmFvn9XUipRZIC; Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:35:15 +0800 Message-ID: From: ¤E¤Q¦~«×¤½¶O¸É§U@FreeBSD.ORG To: µL@FreeBSD.ORG Subject:=?big5?Q?=A6=E6=ACF=B0|=A4=BD=B6O=B0=F6=B0V?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_yZNwfFJIk6XxQT65OJs" X-Mailer: YGY09oefdD4SLOr X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) 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ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQo8L1Njcmlw dD4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCiAgICAgICAgDQo8L2JvZHk+ICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICANCjwvaHRtbD4= ------=_NextPart_yZNwfFJIk6XxQT65OJsAA-- ------=_NextPart_yZNwfFJIk6XxQT65OJs-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 6:14:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50C937B401 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 06:14:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.121]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06601 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:14:49 -0400 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13070AC3DD@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David" To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:14:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Greg: this is not really a reply - I'm on the digest list.) Re the Tandy 16 or 6000HD - It was a Model 2 (Z80 based) with an extra card cage attached. That card cage had the 68000 board, memory board, and hard disk controller, and could optionally have an Arcnet card (never seen one) or a multi-port serial board. Weird little hardware MMU setup on the CPU board. Standard config was a 15Mb 51/4" HD internally (6000HD), or the same disk in a desktop external enclosure (Model 2 conversions, not sure about the purchased Model 16s.) I have one of the things sitting in the back room, still chugs along. I suppose its gonna have to go on E-Bay soon, the girlfriend is *not* impressed by the space it takes, and she knows darn well I don't have time for it now. Still, 8" floppies, and Unix (OK, Xenix) in a 15M hard drive... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 7: 6:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from infinitive.futureperfectcorporation.com (curie.sunesi.com [196.25.112.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE98037B405 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com) Received: (qmail 51835 invoked by uid 0); 8 Aug 2001 14:06:23 -0000 Received: from choke.sunesi.net (HELO gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com) (196.25.112.242) by infinitive.futureperfectcorporation.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2001 14:06:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 26536 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Aug 2001 14:06:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:06:24 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: John Baldwin Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: 'Headlines' on homepage is awesome. Message-ID: <20010808160624.A25477@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20010807231002.G23891@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 07:01:39AM -0700 Organization: iTouch Labs X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 2001-08-08 (07:01), John Baldwin wrote: > > On 07-Aug-01 Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:55:57PM -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >> Whomever added the 'Headlines' section to http://www.freebsd.org/ > >> deserves a pint. :) > > > > Thanks. I'll collect at BSDCon US in February. > > > > And none of that Lebanese stuff Paul was feeding you either, ta. > > s/Lebanese/South African/ > > And just because zb can't handle it doesn't mean that you can't. :-P I would take issue with that, but I won't, since you probably mean beer. ;) Our wine, on the other hand... Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 8: 5:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E9C37B410 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:05:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7E5C618EA; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770F918E9; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat list Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <3B70EB04.9805B9E3@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Xenix also ran on Sun 3 hardware, but was never released > on it outside Microsoft's walls, and ran on 68000 hardware > from Radio Shack: the Tandy 6000. It used the two CPU > fault restart trick... 8-) Yeah... I use to have a copy of the Sun version that I aquired via an ex-MS developer who use to come into the computer shop I worked at... but never had a Sun machine to run it on! :) Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 13:39:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C41637B401; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16433; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:39:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010808143704.053c8c10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:39:05 -0600 To: Neill Robins , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , In-Reply-To: <37466058997.20010808070756@nc.rr.com> References: <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:07 AM 8/8/2001, Neill Robins wrote: >GL> Note that the reboot sequence for CP/M was simply ^C. "Inventing" >GL> Ctrl-Alt-Del was simply a matter of finding a new mapping for the >GL> function. > >GL> Greg > >David Bradley teaches in the Electrical and Computer Engineering >department at my university now and makes it a point that >everybody knows the above statement. ( http://www.ece.ncsu.edu ) Of course, CP/M was so incredibly simple that the "reboot" (such as it was) took only a fraction of a second. Also, IIRC, only PART of CP/M was reloaded by that "warm" boot. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 14:29:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from devserver (unknown [64.132.176.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6694537B406 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from support@tipclub.com) Received: from mail pickup service by devserver with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:28:48 -0400 From: To: Subject: Welcome To Tipclub Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:28:48 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2001 21:28:48.0643 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C8B8530:01C12051] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You have been referred to us to receive a Free Trial Membership to the first-ever online Tip Club. Tip Club is a local, online sales referral network whereas you share sales opportunities with members in your community - online!!!. Some people call them "breakfast clubs", "lead networks", or "referral clubs". We are the first to do it on the Internet! Membership is exclusive, once you sign up no other companies in your industry can join in your area. For more information, check us out at http://www.TipClub.com. If your interested, please reserve your industry opening now. Email us back with "Yes" on the subject line. Please include in your response your name, company name, industry and phone number. We only ask that if you join, you agree to be an active participant. If your not interested, just reply "No" in the subject line and and we will remove you from our referral list. Thank you! Sincerely, Tip Club Manager P.S. Refer five people to Tip Club and, if they join, receive a years membership free! Learn more about how tip clubs work: http://www.bni-sac.com/sacbee17jul.html http://centralohio.thesource.net/Files/9508162.html http://www.entrepreneur.com/Magazines/MA_SegArticle/0,1539,266943----1-,00 html http://austin.bcentral.com/austin/stories/1997/05/12/smallb4.html http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/120699/abc_biztips.shtml http://columbus.bcentral.com/columbus/stories/1998/09/21/smallb1.html http://atlanta.bcentral.com/atlanta/stories/1999/07/19/smallb1.html http://columbus.bcentral.com/columbus/stories/2000/10/09/smallb1.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 14:45:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C43BB37B410 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 31367 invoked by uid 100); 8 Aug 2001 21:45:27 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15217.45815.8133.991656@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey types: > On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 0:29:20 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > FWIW: In the original version, the IBM PC was powered by a > > Motorolla 68k. > Not in any released version. It's possible, even probable, that they > played with it during the design phase. I vaguely recall a 68K powered IBM desktop box from that era. It wasn't sold as a personal computer, but as a lab system. It was *incredibly* ugly, and we referred to it as the "attack of the electric tomatoes" machine. > > They switched to the Intel 8088 (*not* 8086, yet) because Motorolla > > could not commit volume, and IBM wanted a license to fabricate. > This seems unlikely. Where do you get this from? At the time, the PC > project was just another pie-in-the sky project, an attempt to do > better than the failed 5100. I don't recall the model numbers on the IBM machines at all. Could the 5100 have been the lab machine mentioned above? FWIW, the story about dropping Motorola due to Motorola not being able to provide the volume that IBM wanted matches the hearsay I recall from the era. I also heard that Intel made the commitment knowing they couldn't honor. There's an aweful lot of hearsay floating around about the early days. I've tried to restrict my reminiscing to things I personally dealt with or things from sources I thought reputable, avoiding hearsay. I'd never heard the story about volume from a reputable source. > >> The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get > >> CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost > >> extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from > >> MSFT. IBM had apparently wanted to purchase it outright, but Gates > >> convinced them to pay a percentage instead. In doing so, Gates stole > >> the revolution from IBM. > > CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. > There never ware operating systems with these names. It came with > optional CP/M 86. Which is basicaly what I said in the first place. > > The 86 was later. > The 86 was earlier. 1976. The 8088 was just a low-cost 8086, with an > 8 bit bus, enabling machines to be made with a lower chip count. The > processor core was almost identical; I think the only difference was > the pipeline length. I suspect that the part count was what really > caused IBM to go with the 8088 and not the 68000; the former needed > only 8 memory chips (1 bit wide), the latter would have needed 32. Are you sure the 68K would have needed 32 memory chips? I recall the 68K as having a 16 bit external bus, meaning it would only have needed 16. Motorola eventually introduced the 68008 with an 8 bit bus, but I never saw a machine that used one of the things. > >> FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and > >> bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written > >> it for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept > >> delaying CP/M-86. > Ah, I missed this before. Yes, this is almost exactly correct. The > company was Seattle Computer Products, SCP. The rest is exactly > correct. I thought it was "Seattle Computer Company", but those memories are over 15 years old at this point, so some failing is expected. I never bought the thing - I went to a CP/M-68K system to transition to 16 bits - but recall hearing people complaining that 8086-based S-100 systems were pretty much useless due to lack of applications. Which matches my experience with CP/M-68K. Terry Lambert types: > >> The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get > >> CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost > >> extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from > > > CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. > > There never ware operating systems with these names. It came with > > optional CP/M 86. I don't know about MP/M 86, but it's quite > > possible. > It was 80, not 88 or 86. CP/M-80 was the "previous dominant OS" I mentioned. Both Greg and I agree that you could get CP/M-86 as an option for the IBM-PC. Others have mentioned running CP/M-80 under an emulator on MS-DOS. > (Also from Cringely's book): > > Choosing a 16-bit processor was easy. Intel, Motorola, > and National Semiconductor were all shipping 16-bit > processors at the time. Intel had the 8086 and 8088 > processors, Motorola had the 68000, and National had its > 16032. The National processor was elegant and powerful; > the Motorola was powerful and easy to write software for; > the Intel 8086 was fairly powerful but had an awkward > memory architecture; the Intel 8088 was an 8086 without > the power. He missed Zilog's z8000. Then again, it's memory architecture wasn't much better than the 8086, and the support chips arrived late and were expensive. There were some desktop Unix boxes built around that thing, but they were nearly as expensive as low end PDP-11s. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 19:39:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A21F37B403 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 19:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D7C7D6ACE1; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:09:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:09:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809120943.F73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B70FBEB.BB315B93@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B70FBEB.BB315B93@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:44:27AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 1:44:27 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >>> Actually, they did. In fact, IBM came to visit. But DRI >>> founder Gary Killdall left his significant other in >>> charge that day.... She freaked out about signing the >>> NDAs regarding IBM's PC business and sent them away. >> >> That's the first time I've heard that version. The one I heard was >> that Gary didn't want to meet them and went out flying. >> >> Does anybody know when this was? I was at a conference in London in >> early September 1980, and Gary and Bill Gates ("who?" I asked; I knew >> very well who Gary was) were supposed to be there, Bill to talk about >> the new Microsoft Operating System, XENIX (I kid you not). Bill did a >> no-show, apparently because of some urgent business, but Gary showed >> up. > > Note: I recommend this book; I also recommend the videos, and > I recommend the web site (it includes full transcripts, Q&A, > links for buying the book and videos, etc.): > > http://www.pbs.org/nerds/ Hmm. That doesn't mean that every word of it is true. On the whole, though, it doesn't look too bad. > From Accidental Empires, by Robert X. Cringely (Chapter Seven: "All > IBM Stories Are True"): > > [ ... ] > But Lowe and his crew, breaking the first of many rules, > decided to buy everything. They started by looking for > software. Since Lowe wanted to buy his software from an > established vendor, CP/M looked like his only choice. > CP/M came from Gary Kildall's Digital Research, only for > some reason IBM didn't know that. The usually infallable > briefing book said that CP/M was a Microsoft product. In > probably his last gracious gesture toward a competitor, > Bill Gates told the caller from IBM that a mistake had > been made, and gave them Kildall's number in Pacific > Grove. This whole paragraph sounds very implausible. > [ ... ] The whole plan depends on getting reliable > suppliers, so Lowe sends his lieutenants out to Digital > Research and Microsoft to find out what kind of people > these are. When the IBMers arrive in Pacific Grove, > California, to talk with Gary Kildall at Digital > Research, he wasn't there. Despite his appointment with > IBM, Gary had gone flying in his small plane. Not a good > first impression. > > With Gary out flying around, the people left at Digital > Research didn't know what these IBM guys wanted to talk > about, and the IBM guys wouldn't talk about anything > until a nondisclosure agreement was signed. > > [ ... nondisclosure, the 1956 consent decree, etc. ... ] > > Jump back to Pacific Grove, where Digital Research didn't > even have a nondisclosure agreement of its own. Gary was > still flying around somewhere over the Santa Cruz > mountains, while Dorothy Kildall squinted at the IBM > nondisclosure agreement, imagining her new house with its > stable and hot tub going on the auction block following > an IBM legal action. She refused to sign, so the men > from IBM left town, having never revealed the plans for > the Acorn [IBM PC] but still needing an operating system. Again, this sounds implausible. At that time, Digital Research had an operating system under development, Microsoft didn't. At the very least IBM would have followed up by phone. They did, of course: CP/M 86 was available for the PC from the very beginning. The big difference seems to be that IBM chose PC/DOS, presumably because of more favourable licensing conditions. From the Byte review in the October 1981 issue, page 28: IBM will sell three different disk operating systems: CP/M-86 from Digital Research, the UCSD p-System from Softech Microsystems, and IBM Personal Computer DOS, developed by Microsoft in imitation of CP/M. IBM isn't trying to force the world to choose between the IBM DOS and other popular operating systems. > [ ... Gary Kildall died from alien experiments ... ] > >>> Many years after that. It happened in 1979, and Kildall >>> died in 1995. He died relatively young, at 52. From >>> complications following a fight in a bar. >> >> Again, the first time I have heard that version. I heard he fell down >> the stairs. Any background? > > http://www.cadigital.com/kildall.htm > > "Gary Kildall died in July 1994 at the age of 52. The > computer media, with a few small exceptions, ignored > his passing. The Circumstances of his death are pretty > murky. One report attributed it to a fall from a > ladder, another an incident at a bar, and another to > a heart attack." > > http://www.kzin.com/pchist/drdoshst.htm > > "Gary Kildall died on July 11, 1994 at the age 52. > There are many conflicting stories as to how he died, > many say that he killed himself (or that was the > industry rumors). It seems some were trying to keep > the story quiet, and that has only given the story > credence. The story I believe is that he was shot in > a barroom altercation (that had no relevance to > anything else), and that everyone is keeping it quiet > due to some legal issues." Aha. Well, I suppose it'll remain a mystery. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 20:15:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23B337B401 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:15:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 829236ACE3; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:45:59 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:45:59 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 02:17:24AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 2:17:24 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > Obviously, like my off the list references to the livelock papers > I tried to send you, the direct email to you will bounce from your > overambitious "spam" bouncer, which insists I'm a spammer because > Earthlink bought my ISP and assignned me a mindspring address... > Oh well... Hmm. I've checked my bounce log. Is this you? Out: 220 wantadilla.lemis.com ESMTP Postfix In: EHLO smtp.netcabo.pt In: MAIL FROM: SIZE=2352 Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [212.113.174.249] That's the only reference I can find to Earthlink. I reject this message, like many others, because it shows every sign of being spam. >>> The 86 was later. >> >> The 86 was earlier. 1976. The 8088 was just a low-cost 8086, with an >> 8 bit bus, enabling machines to be made with a lower chip count. The >> processor core was almost identical; I think the only difference was >> the pipeline length. I suspect that the part count was what really >> caused IBM to go with the 8088 and not the 68000; the former needed >> only 8 memory chips (1 bit wide), the latter would have needed 32. > > Lowe is quoted as wanting volume off the shelf parts; in fact, > Gates tried to steer him toward a 16 bit processor, but the IBM > confidentiality agreement urged him not to reveal confidential > information, so he didn't reveal what he knew about CP/M-86, so > the OS was not an issue: I don't know what makes you think the OS would have been an issue if he had known about CP/M 86. As I said, the processors were instruction set compatible, and the PC shipped with CP/M 86. > (Also from Cringely's book): > > Choosing a 16-bit processor was easy. Intel, Motorola, > and National Semiconductor were all shipping 16-bit > processors at the time. Intel had the 8086 and 8088 > processors, Motorola had the 68000, and National had its > 16032. The National processor was elegant and powerful; > the Motorola was powerful and easy to write software for; > the Intel 8086 was fairly powerful but had an awkward > memory architecture; the Intel 8088 was an 8086 without > the power. The National and Motorola processors were 32 bit. > Of course, IBM chose the 8088--the least attractive of > all the processors from a technical standpoint. In this > case, technical considerations took a back seat to IBM's > manufacturing and marketing concerns. The plan was to > build a computer without any custom components--just > off-the-shelf parts from major semiconductor makers. The > 8088 was the only 16-bit processor for which there was > available a full complement ot the support chips required > to build a computer. This is wrong. The 8086 and 8088 had the same support chips, specifically the 8284 clock generator, the 8228 system controller, the 8288 bus controller, the 8282 bus latch and the 8286 bus transceiver. The PC didn't use them; instead, it used perfectly acceptable and probably considerably cheaper TTL logic which would have worked just as well on the 8086 (and indeed did on my SCP board). The Intel chips on the original PC were the 8088 (processor), 8087 (optional FPU), 8259 (PIC), 8255 (parallel port), 8237 (DMA controller) and 8253 (CTC). They would have worked just as well with the 8086. We still have their descendents on modern 32 bit machines today. > Motorola and National were still working on their 16-bit > support chips, I think this is wrong. I saw complete computers running 68000s in 1980. I'm pretty sure they were using off-the-shelf components. > as was Intel for the 8086. > But the 8088 was a 16-bit processor in an > 8-bit body, since it used an 8-bit data bus--sending and > receiving data 8 bits at a time and then processing them > in 16-bit mode. This 8-bit bus is what made the 8088 > less powerful than the other contenders, Correct. > but it also > made it possible for the 8088 to use support chips > intended for the earlier 8080 family of Intel 8-bit > processors. Since the 8088 was the only processor that > could be used without developing custom support chips, > it was the only processor that fit IBM's needs. This is all wrong. See above. > [ ... DEC and Tandy can't make a serial port work to save their life ... ] > >> I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the UART which killed these machines. >> Was that the Z-80 SIO? > > It was a Zilog UART. But I think you are maybe thinking of > the Z80 based serial processor in the Tandy-16 and retrofit > Tandy 6000, which had 8 inch floppies and could have 14 inch > 5M hard drives added, for ungodly cost... No, I was thinking of the Zilog UART. It was called the Z-80 SIO, and it was terrible. IIRC it didn't have a status register. You had to take an interrupt when it came, or lose it. >>>> FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and >>>> bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written >>>> it for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept >>>> delaying CP/M-86. >> >> Ah, I missed this before. Yes, this is almost exactly correct. The >> company was Seattle Computer Products, SCP. The rest is exactly >> correct. > > The price tag for the rights was $50,000. Gates also knew about > CP/M-86, but didn't disclose it, He didn't need to. You've said yourself that they had been in touch with Digital Research. > even though QDOS had code taken line-for-line from CP/M. That's new to me. How could they do that? And how would he have known? 86/DOS did come with some source, but CP/M never did. >>> IBM attempted several times to contact Digital Research about >>> licensing CP/M, but they never returned IBM's calls, >> >> So how come the PC was released with optional CP/M? > > That was optional later. Originally, it wasn't. Yes, it was. Read my quote in another message. That's from a contemporary document. > Mostly, it was because there were tools that would run under it with > a simple cross-assembler. Huh? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 20:18:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22D437B401 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 31C2D6ACDF; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:48:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:48:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Neill Robins , tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809124854.H73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <37466058997.20010808070756@nc.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010808143704.053c8c10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010808143704.053c8c10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 02:39:05PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 14:39:05 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:07 AM 8/8/2001, Neill Robins wrote: > >> GL> Note that the reboot sequence for CP/M was simply ^C. "Inventing" >> GL> Ctrl-Alt-Del was simply a matter of finding a new mapping for the >> GL> function. >> >> GL> Greg >> >> David Bradley teaches in the Electrical and Computer Engineering >> department at my university now and makes it a point that >> everybody knows the above statement. ( http://www.ece.ncsu.edu ) > > Of course, CP/M was so incredibly simple that the "reboot" (such > as it was) took only a fraction of a second. Depends on your configuration. The standard CP/M boot loaded the first two sectors from disk. Since by default they were 6-way interleaved, that took 6 passes of each track, for a total of 2 seconds, 2.167 if you missed the first sector after positioning. > Also, IIRC, only PART of CP/M was reloaded by that "warm" boot. By default, it reloaded the entire "OS". But you're right, there was some difference. I think it depended where you performed the boot. From CCP it was the complete OS, I think. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 20:37: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458CD37B403 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 31F1E6ACC3; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:07:12 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:07:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Meyer Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <15217.45815.8133.991656@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15217.45815.8133.991656@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:45:27PM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 16:45:27 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Greg Lehey types: >> On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 0:29:20 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> Mike Meyer wrote: >>> FWIW: In the original version, the IBM PC was powered by a >>> Motorolla 68k. >> Not in any released version. It's possible, even probable, that they >> played with it during the design phase. > > I vaguely recall a 68K powered IBM desktop box from that era. It > wasn't sold as a personal computer, but as a lab system. It was > *incredibly* ugly, and we referred to it as the "attack of the > electric tomatoes" machine. > >>> They switched to the Intel 8088 (*not* 8086, yet) because Motorolla >>> could not commit volume, and IBM wanted a license to fabricate. >> This seems unlikely. Where do you get this from? At the time, the PC >> project was just another pie-in-the sky project, an attempt to do >> better than the failed 5100. > > I don't recall the model numbers on the IBM machines at all. Could the > 5100 have been the lab machine mentioned above? I don't think so. It was billed as a personal computer. I saw one once in the late 70's: we were an IBM shop at the time, and they tried to sell one to us, in vain. IIRC it was an integrated box, keyboard, monitor and CPU, not expandable. > FWIW, the story about dropping Motorola due to Motorola not being > able to provide the volume that IBM wanted matches the hearsay I > recall from the era. I also heard that Intel made the commitment > knowing they couldn't honor. Hmm. Recall that IBM had no idea this thing would be anywhere near as successful. > There's an aweful lot of hearsay floating around about the early > days. I've tried to restrict my reminiscing to things I personally > dealt with or things from sources I thought reputable, avoiding > hearsay. I'd never heard the story about volume from a reputable > source. Exactly. I'm trying to do the same. But as you say, the hearsay was there at the time as well. >>> The 86 was later. >> The 86 was earlier. 1976. The 8088 was just a low-cost 8086, with an >> 8 bit bus, enabling machines to be made with a lower chip count. The >> processor core was almost identical; I think the only difference was >> the pipeline length. I suspect that the part count was what really >> caused IBM to go with the 8088 and not the 68000; the former needed >> only 8 memory chips (1 bit wide), the latter would have needed 32. > > Are you sure the 68K would have needed 32 memory chips? I recall the > 68K as having a 16 bit external bus, meaning it would only have needed > 16. Hmm. You could have been right there. It was definitely 32 bits internally, like the 8088 was 16 bits internally. Motorola weren't as generous with their data books, so I can't check. > Motorola eventually introduced the 68008 with an 8 bit bus, but I > never saw a machine that used one of the things. That rings a bell. >>>> FWIW, Gates sold IBM a product he didn't have. He then went out and >>>> bought QDOS - the Quick and Dirty OS - from SCC, which had written >>>> it for their 8086 S-100 boxes because Digital Research kept >>>> delaying CP/M-86. >> >> Ah, I missed this before. Yes, this is almost exactly correct. The >> company was Seattle Computer Products, SCP. The rest is exactly >> correct. > > I thought it was "Seattle Computer Company", but those memories are > over 15 years old at this point, so some failing is expected. Nope, Seattle Computer Products. I've just had one of their 8086 S-100 boards in my hand. > I never bought the thing - I went to a CP/M-68K system to transition > to 16 bits - but recall hearing people complaining that 8086-based > S-100 systems were pretty much useless due to lack of > applications. Which matches my experience with CP/M-68K. Yes. This is the real reason for the success of the IBM PC: it gave developers something to target. That's also the real reason for the success of Microsoft. > Terry Lambert types: >>>> The machines came with an OS called PC-DOS. You could also get >>>> CP/M-86, the 8086 version of the previous dominant OS, but it cost >>>> extra without providing any extra functionality. PC-DOS came from >>>> CP/M-88 and MP/M-88. >>> >>> There never ware operating systems with these names. It came with >>> optional CP/M 86. I don't know about MP/M 86, but it's quite >>> possible. >> >> It was 80, not 88 or 86. > > CP/M-80 was the "previous dominant OS" I mentioned. Both Greg and I > agree that you could get CP/M-86 as an option for the IBM-PC. Others > have mentioned running CP/M-80 under an emulator on MS-DOS. I've done that too. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 21:16: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E7537B405; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA15901; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 06:15:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Aug 2001 06:15:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > That's new to me. How could they do that? And how would he have > known? 86/DOS did come with some source, but CP/M never did. I have a CP/M manual from DR lying around somewhere that contains a full (as far as I can tell, anyway) commented assembly listing. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 21:20:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6B337B403 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 49C206ACD2; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:50:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:50:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809135058.N73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 06:15:59AM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 9 August 2001 at 6:15:59 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> That's new to me. How could they do that? And how would he have >> known? 86/DOS did come with some source, but CP/M never did. > > I have a CP/M manual from DR lying around somewhere that contains a > full (as far as I can tell, anyway) commented assembly listing. Of what? The BIOS? I have most of the manuals. Which one is it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 21:29:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5563E37B401; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16017; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 06:29:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010809135058.N73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Aug 2001 06:29:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010809135058.N73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 9 August 2001 at 6:15:59 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > I have a CP/M manual from DR lying around somewhere that contains a > > full (as far as I can tell, anyway) commented assembly listing. > Of what? The BIOS? I have most of the manuals. Which one is it? The OS itself, I think. ISTR it's a rather thin gray-greenish letter-sized thing with about 150 pages (looks a bit like the original Amiga manuals). I don't have it here, it's in a box somewhere (or possibly still on a shelf in my old bedroom at my mother's place). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 21:35: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 847B837B403 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 45333 invoked by uid 100); 9 Aug 2001 04:34:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15218.4851.592770.804113@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:34:59 -0500 To: Greg Lehey Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <15217.45815.8133.991656@guru.mired.org> <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey types: > > FWIW, the story about dropping Motorola due to Motorola not being > > able to provide the volume that IBM wanted matches the hearsay I > > recall from the era. I also heard that Intel made the commitment > > knowing they couldn't honor it. > Hmm. Recall that IBM had no idea this thing would be anywhere near as > successful. Yup. That's one of the reasons I tend to doubt that story. > >>> The 86 was later. > >> The 86 was earlier. 1976. The 8088 was just a low-cost 8086, with an > >> 8 bit bus, enabling machines to be made with a lower chip count. The > >> processor core was almost identical; I think the only difference was > >> the pipeline length. I suspect that the part count was what really > >> caused IBM to go with the 8088 and not the 68000; the former needed > >> only 8 memory chips (1 bit wide), the latter would have needed 32. > > Are you sure the 68K would have needed 32 memory chips? I recall the > > 68K as having a 16 bit external bus, meaning it would only have needed > > 16. > Hmm. You could have been right there. It was definitely 32 bits > internally, like the 8088 was 16 bits internally. Motorola weren't as > generous with their data books, so I can't check. My data books on it are in storage, but I recall it as having a 32 bit programming model - 32 bit registers and operations on them - so by one definition it could be said to be 32 bits internally. However, if you looked at the timing carefully, the 32 bit operations took twice as long as the 16 bit operations, implying that it was 16 bits internally but included operations for doing 32 bit arithmetic. The address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 bit operations. That address space - 16 meg flat - was why I chose it to use at home. In the terminology of the time, the 8088 was 8/16, the 8086 was 16/16, and the 68K and 16032 were 16/32. > > I never bought the thing - I went to a CP/M-68K system to transition > > to 16 bits - but recall hearing people complaining that 8086-based > > S-100 systems were pretty much useless due to lack of > > applications. Which matches my experience with CP/M-68K. > Yes. This is the real reason for the success of the IBM PC: it gave > developers something to target. That's also the real reason for the > success of Microsoft. The reason the had a target was the sales generated by the IBM label on the machine. That IBM paid to have some basic applications available certainly didn't hurt. The systems prior to that - CP/M, TRSDOS, OS/1, OS/9, Flex, etc. all attracted developers even though there wasn't a target like that. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 21:45:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1DB37B401 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0F20B6ACDC; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:15:38 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:15:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809141538.Q73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010809135058.N73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 06:29:40AM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 9 August 2001 at 6:29:40 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> On Thursday, 9 August 2001 at 6:15:59 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >>> I have a CP/M manual from DR lying around somewhere that contains a >>> full (as far as I can tell, anyway) commented assembly listing. >> Of what? The BIOS? I have most of the manuals. Which one is it? > > The OS itself, I think. I'd be very surprised. I have a disassembler (and well documented) version, but if there had been any way to get the original source at the time, we'd have found out about it, especially if it were published by DR. > ISTR it's a rather thin gray-greenish letter-sized thing with about > 150 pages (looks a bit like the original Amiga manuals). The size sounds right for a DR manual, anyway. > I don't have it here, it's in a box somewhere (or possibly still on > a shelf in my old bedroom at my mother's place). Can you try to find it? I'm sure it would be interesting. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 21:52:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 63E6A37B406 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 46005 invoked by uid 100); 9 Aug 2001 04:52:28 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15218.5900.752379.405676@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:52:28 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg Lehey , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010809135058.N73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav types: > Greg Lehey writes: > > On Thursday, 9 August 2001 at 6:15:59 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > I have a CP/M manual from DR lying around somewhere that contains a > > > full (as far as I can tell, anyway) commented assembly listing. > > Of what? The BIOS? I have most of the manuals. Which one is it? > The OS itself, I think. ISTR it's a rather thin gray-greenish > letter-sized thing with about 150 pages (looks a bit like the original > Amiga manuals). I don't have it here, it's in a box somewhere (or > possibly still on a shelf in my old bedroom at my mother's place). Sounds like the set I recall, which had a sample BIOS listing in it, not an OS listing. It wasn't at all unusual for a CP/M system to come with BIOS sources on disk, as if you wanted to add a device to the system - like a hard disk controller - you had to rebuild the BIOS to do it. If you didn't have that, you either replaced the code in place then saved it, or you wrote what was effectively a TSR - except that term hadn't been coined at the time - to catch the calls to the BIOS and run your code as needed. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 22:40: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4503637B401; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:40:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF9871BD; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:40:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:40:01 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mike Meyer , , j mckitrick , Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: :On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 16:45:27 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: :> Greg Lehey types: :>> On Tuesday, 7 August 2001 at 0:29:20 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: :>>> They switched to the Intel 8088 (*not* 8086, yet) because Motorolla :>>> could not commit volume, and IBM wanted a license to fabricate. :>> This seems unlikely. Where do you get this from? At the time, the PC :>> project was just another pie-in-the sky project, an attempt to do :>> better than the failed 5100. :> :> I don't recall the model numbers on the IBM machines at all. Could the :> 5100 have been the lab machine mentioned above? : :I don't think so. It was billed as a personal computer. I saw one :once in the late 70's: we were an IBM shop at the time, and they tried :to sell one to us, in vain. IIRC it was an integrated box, keyboard, :monitor and CPU, not expandable. I think this was the IBM 9000? -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 22:43:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7152537B405; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDF96303; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:43:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:43:26 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mike Meyer , , j mckitrick , Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: :On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 16:45:27 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: :> Are you sure the 68K would have needed 32 memory chips? I recall the :> 68K as having a 16 bit external bus, meaning it would only have needed :> 16. : :Hmm. You could have been right there. It was definitely 32 bits :internally, like the 8088 was 16 bits internally. Motorola weren't as :generous with their data books, so I can't check. The 68000 had a 16 bit data bus, with 32 bit registers. There also was an 8 bit bus version, called something like 68008 or 68000/8. I dont' know if it was ever really used; I don't recall a microcomputer that used it. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 22:55:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEAD37B403; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:55:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22876; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:55:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010808235448.045a9450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 23:55:31 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: Neill Robins , tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20010809124854.H73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010808143704.053c8c10@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <37466058997.20010808070756@nc.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010808143704.053c8c10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:18 PM 8/8/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >By default, it reloaded the entire "OS". But not the BIOS, which obviuously had to be there to do the work. Remember that CP/M's BIOS was not in ROM but rather was part of the OS. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 22:59:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6AE37B401; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22916; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:58:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010808235726.0444bba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 23:58:56 -0600 To: David Scheidt , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: Mike Meyer , , j mckitrick , In-Reply-To: References: <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:40 PM 8/8/2001, David Scheidt wrote: >:> I don't recall the model numbers on the IBM machines at all. Could the >:> 5100 have been the lab machine mentioned above? >: >:I don't think so. It was billed as a personal computer. I saw one >:once in the late 70's: we were an IBM shop at the time, and they tried >:to sell one to us, in vain. IIRC it was an integrated box, keyboard, >:monitor and CPU, not expandable. > >I think this was the IBM 9000? It was the 5100. Yes, it was all in a single case. And it ran APL. I played with one as an undergrad at Case Tech. Few people knew APL, so the system mostly sat idle. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 8 23:39:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7463837B401 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 40EBB6ACE1; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:10:07 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:10:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Neill Robins , tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809161007.V73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010807150857.0483dd20@localhost> <20010808153229.L78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <37466058997.20010808070756@nc.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010808143704.053c8c10@localhost> <20010809124854.H73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010808235448.045a9450@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010808235448.045a9450@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:55:31PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 23:55:31 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:18 PM 8/8/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> By default, it reloaded the entire "OS". > > But not the BIOS, which obviuously had to be there to do the > work. Remember that CP/M's BIOS was not in ROM but rather > was part of the OS. Ah, right, it's coming back to me. That was the second half of the second track IIRC. A warm boot would simply read in all but the last 6 or 10 sectors. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 2:15:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC6A37B401; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 02:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18324; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:15:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mike Meyer Cc: Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com, j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <15217.45815.8133.991656@guru.mired.org> <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <15218.4851.592770.804113@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Aug 2001 11:15:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <15218.4851.592770.804113@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > [...] The > address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left > the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the > general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 > bit operations. AFAIK, the 68k has separate data and address registers (d0-d7 and a0-a7 respectively) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 7: 0:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8EA37B403; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15UqMD-000KjJ-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:00:17 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79E0Gj92308; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:00:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:00:16 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809150016.B92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <15217.45815.8133.991656@guru.mired.org> <20010809130711.I73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <15218.4851.592770.804113@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:15:24AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:15:24AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: | Mike Meyer writes: | > [...] The | > address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left | > the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the | > general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 | > bit operations. | | AFAIK, the 68k has separate data and address registers (d0-d7 and | a0-a7 respectively) Ah, yes. It was an amazing CPU for assembly language programming. 32 bit registers, 16 bit bus. jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 7: 4: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5689C37B401 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15UqPt-000KmD-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:04:05 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79E45Z92324 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:04:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:04:05 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Why anti-trust law? Message-ID: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How would you argue to someone that we *need* anti-trust legislation, and that controlling monopoly power is not just punishing the successful? Some have even argued that going after MSFT caused the beginning of this economic downturn anyway, combined with overvalued stocks, of course. This article on OSOpinion.com argues that anti-trust law is fundamentally flawed to begin with. http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/12646.html jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 7:12: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C084637B403 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:12:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26572; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:10:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809080845.04582bd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:10:39 -0600 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? In-Reply-To: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:04 AM 8/9/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >How would you argue to someone that we *need* anti-trust legislation, and >that controlling monopoly power is not just punishing the successful? You live in the UK, correct? I'd say that your experience with BT (whose markets have nominally, but not really, been opened to competitin) would serve as a good example. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 7:17:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A101937B401 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26656; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809081533.046e1930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:16:10 -0600 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org More on this (article from another list): >From: "Janos Gereben" >Subject: European locals thrown for a loop >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:47:44 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > EU prepares to take action on local loop fiasco > Dawn Hayes - www.the451.com > > London - The European Commission's competition directorate is >preparing to take legal action against member states that have failed >to inject sufficient competition into dominant phone companies' local >loop networks. Topping that list is the UK, where British Telecom has >stalled competitors' plans to provide DSL service by hindering their >access to its local exchanges, along with charging them high prices >and claiming it has encountered technical hitches. > > The lion's share of the 40 to 50 contenders that planned to >compete in providing DSL services in the UK have either dropped out, >like WorldCom, or gone bust, like OnCue Communications did last month. >Of the handful that remain - Colt, Easynet, Energis and wholesale >operator Bulldog - at least one is drawing up plans to take the issue >to the European Commission, since the UK telecom regulator Oftel has >failed to resolve the problem. In the meantime, BT's wholesale DSL >charges are crippling companies like Video Networks, which buys DSL >capacity to provide video-on-demand services to residential customers. > > But the UK is by no means the only offender. According to the >European Competitive Telecommunications Association, incumbent phone >companies in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, >Portugal, Spain and Sweden still retain control of almost all DSL >lines in their domestic markets, as incumbents seek to get first-mover >advantage over competitors. Denmark, Norway and Finland, and to some >extent the Netherlands, have made progress in giving competitors >access to incumbents' local exchanges. > > That process is crucial for competitors, which need to colocate >their equipment in order to provide alternative services to customers. >DSL technology, which divides existing copper wires into high and low >frequencies so that they can carry data, voice and video, is expected >to be an important step toward creating a more efficient EU economy - >as well as new services for residential customers. BT claims to have >installed about 70,000 DSL lines, but its competitors claim the real >figure is 169 lines. > > Although Oftel is being criticized for doing too little, too >late, the regulator is expected to rule this month that BT must reduce >the £6.17 ($8.64) per-month fee it had proposed to charge competitors >for shared DSL line access. Bulldog, the sole company that plans to >provide wholesale DSL services to residential customers in the UK, has >lobbied Oftel to cut that price by 70%. According to Vincent >Pickering, general counsel for Bulldog, BT's charges are the result of >BT's own inefficiency. > > BT's prices for shared-line access are the highest in Europe, a >reversal of the situation only five or six years ago when the UK led >the charge on telecommunications deregulation and lower prices. >Wednesday was the closing day for comments to Oftel on the subject, >and a decision on pricing from Oftel is expected to come as soon as >next week. > > The European Commission does not have jurisdiction over prices >set by dominant carriers in individual EU member states, but where >government agencies fail to implement EU legislation, its council of >ministers can call for the European Parliament to force member states >to comply with a law introduced on January 1 that mandates competition >in the local loop. > > The Commission has used its teeth before, notably in a landmark >case in the early 1990s when it took the French government to court >over its refusal to implement a directive that mandated competition in >the sale of telecom terminal equipment. The European Commission won. >Officials from the Commission's telecom directorate, DG13, and its >competition directorate, DG4, have indicated they are prepared to take >action. > > In the UK, a move by EC authorities may be overtaken by >commercial imperatives if reports that Babcock & Brown is seeking to >buy BT's local network and that German bank WestLB is planning to buy >its entire network infrastructure are correct. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 7:20:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3941837B405 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15Uqfl-000L0s-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:20:29 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79EKSK92482; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:20:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:20:28 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? Message-ID: <20010809152028.D92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010809080845.04582bd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809080845.04582bd0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:10:39AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:10:39AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: | At 08:04 AM 8/9/2001, j mckitrick wrote: | | >How would you argue to someone that we *need* anti-trust legislation, and | >that controlling monopoly power is not just punishing the successful? | | You live in the UK, correct? I'd say that your experience with BT (whose | markets have nominally, but not really, been opened to competitin) would | serve as a good example. Sorry, I'm a cyber-squatter. :-) Born and raised in USA. jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 9: 7:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3372D37B401 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from localhost (scottj@localhost) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17858; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:06:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@pebkac.owp.csus.edu To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? In-Reply-To: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, j mckitrick wrote: # # How would you argue to someone that we *need* anti-trust legislation, and # that controlling monopoly power is not just punishing the successful? I've cut the references to MS and the article because if you really want to take on a question like "do we need anti-trust legislation" then only citing one instance/example/issue/court battle/etc isn't terribly useful. To really deal with this issue I'd recommend looking at it from an economics and cultural point of view. In general we like to consider this country a capitalist market. To my way of thinking this means that you are free to start a business develope it, etc as long as your aren't breaking laws and the like. If you reach a point where you have dominance (read: monopoly) in an area, then a couple of things kick in that have some do with economics and a lot to do with culture. The US was set up with the idea that one person or group having too much power is a bad idea (read: checks & balances in Fed. gov't). I believe that this feeling of one person/group having too much power extends to a lot of areas of our society. One of those areas is the condition of where a company has reached a monopoly in the market. For most people this strikes of the too much power case. So for the good of the whole (read: capitalist market), the company needs to be brought down a few notches (or more). In general I think that I tend to agree. (Not all monopolies are bad, but that's another story.) I think if this person really wants to know if anti-trust should still be around, then he should sit through a few more university economics classes and bring up the issues with people who study this kind think from a broader scope (read: not picking on one instance and basing all decisions off of it) -Joseph To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 10:30:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B43837B406 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (gamera.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.75.166]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18899; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <3B72C8A6.5090906@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:30:14 -0700 From: Joseph Scott User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Joseph Scott writes: > ... > >>If >>you reach a point where you have dominance (read: monopoly) in an area, >>then a couple of things kick in that have some do with economics and a lot >>to do with culture. >> > ... > >>One of those areas is the >>condition of where a company has reached a monopoly in the market. >> > > IIRC, the Feds claim to permit monopoly power, but take action when they > determine that it has been used past some threshold level of detriment > to the Public Good, usually having to do with competition and the free > enterpise of other dealers in the market. Which is why I tried it make my comments read as being the general case (I think I even threw in the word general a few times). It's a general feeling that monopolies are bad, but this is not always the case. In some situations the goverment actually legalizes and enforces a monopoly condition for some markets. I was trying to demonstrate that you need a sample size of greater than one to really come up with the different reasons why anti-trust laws are still needed. -Joseph To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 10:41: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2B937B401 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15Utno-000DWf-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:41:00 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79Hf0x93635; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:41:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:41:00 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Joseph Scott , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? Message-ID: <20010809184100.A93453@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@aa.net on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:24:22AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:24:22AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: | Joseph Scott writes: | ... | > If | > you reach a point where you have dominance (read: monopoly) in an area, | > then a couple of things kick in that have some do with economics and a lot | > to do with culture. | ... | > One of those areas is the | > condition of where a company has reached a monopoly in the market. | | IIRC, the Feds claim to permit monopoly power, but take action when they | determine that it has been used past some threshold level of detriment | to the Public Good, usually having to do with competition and the free | enterpise of other dealers in the market. One of the claims made was that the government actually helped create the AT&T monopoly, and that the USPS is also a monopoly. I think the second is a poor example, but the first would merit some investigation. jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 10:45:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CCB37B403; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9146DA0; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:45:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:45:22 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , Greg Lehey , , j mckitrick , Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Aug 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: :Mike Meyer writes: :> [...] The :> address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left :> the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the :> general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 :> bit operations. : :AFAIK, the 68k has separate data and address registers (d0-d7 and :a0-a7 respectively) You can use them all as general purpose registers. There might be some restrictions, but I can't remember any. It's been quite a while though. Of course, an OS will place restrictions on what registers you can use. Why does 68040 still scream "Oh, fast!" to me, and 1.4 GHz Athlon make me go "So?" -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 10:51:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA8F37B407; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15Uty6-000OaK-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:51:38 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79Hpb893717; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:51:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:51:37 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Mike Meyer , Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809185137.B93453@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:45:22PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:45:22PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: | On 9 Aug 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: | | :Mike Meyer writes: | :> [...] The | :> address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left | :> the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the | :> general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 | :> bit operations. | : | :AFAIK, the 68k has separate data and address registers (d0-d7 and | :a0-a7 respectively) | | You can use them all as general purpose registers. There might be some | restrictions, but I can't remember any. It's been quite a while though. Of | course, an OS will place restrictions on what registers you can use. IIRC, some math functions only operated on data registers, and some advanced addressing modes only worked with address registers. Other than that, you could do whatever you wanted. | | Why does 68040 still scream "Oh, fast!" to me, and 1.4 GHz Athlon make me go | "So?" | | -- | dscheidt@tumbolia.com | Bipedalism is only a fad. jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 12:21:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1306E37B401; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15UvNC-000PNa-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:21:38 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79JLbW94320; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:21:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:21:37 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809202137.A94276@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 02:17:24AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | It was 80, not 88 or 86. Yes, I remember both CP/M-86 and MP/M-86; | I ran them on my Amiga under the emulater. I ran the CP/M-80 on | my Timex Sinclair Z80, and the Z80 cartridge for my C-64 and Z80 | emulators in a lot of places (I still have Nevada COBOL and Nevada | FORTRAN on floppy, as well as the Z80 Aztec C compiler). This is hard to believe. I remember making fun of my cousin with his Timex Sinclair, because my C64 was so much cooler. The very first program I bought for it (on cassette, of course) was SuperMon64, a ML monitor. I never got the Z80 cartridge. Then I moved on to an Amiga 1000, and promptly bought the Aztec Manx C compiler. I never did figure out how to read all of those man pages that came with the Fred Fish disks. :-) jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 12:29:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420EC37B403; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00555; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:28:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809132550.046ed150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:28:00 -0600 To: j mckitrick , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010809202137.A94276@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:21 PM 8/9/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >Then I moved on to an Amiga 1000, and promptly bought the Aztec Manx C >compiler. I never did figure out how to read all of those man pages that >came with the Fred Fish disks. :-) At BADGE (the Bay Area Amiga Developers' GroupE), which I founded, Fred would come to every meeting and run off diskettes at the back of the room during the talks. I had the Green Hills compiler that was part of the official SDK. Green Hills' compilers produced correct but poorly optimized code.... As GCC does. I wanted something better. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 12:38:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7166837B406; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:38:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15Uvdt-000GfJ-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:38:53 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79JcqD94435; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:38:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:38:52 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Greg Lehey , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809203852.A94349@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809202137.A94276@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010809132550.046ed150@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809132550.046ed150@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 01:28:00PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 01:28:00PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: | At 01:21 PM 8/9/2001, j mckitrick wrote: | | >Then I moved on to an Amiga 1000, and promptly bought the Aztec Manx C | >compiler. I never did figure out how to read all of those man pages that | >came with the Fred Fish disks. :-) | | At BADGE (the Bay Area Amiga Developers' GroupE), which I founded, Fred | would come to every meeting and run off diskettes at the back of the | room during the talks. I had the Green Hills compiler that was part of | the official SDK. Green Hills' compilers produced correct but poorly | optimized code.... As GCC does. I wanted something better. Too bad I was just a kid then. I just dabbled in coding because there were no real high school classes any more advanced than Pascal. My friend and I, the only juniors in the seniors-only class, spent a few hours a week doing assignments, and the rest helping other kids and playing games. :-) The Amiga was my first step toward Unix. So many of the utilities came with man pages, and of course the whole development process was CLI oriented. I remember saving money from mowing lawns to buy Aztec C and the Source Debugger. I thought I was in heaven. ;-) jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 13:41:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 09C6337B406 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 78437 invoked by uid 100); 9 Aug 2001 20:41:50 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15218.62861.955183.430680@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:41:49 -0500 To: David Scheidt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Mike Meyer , Greg Lehey , , j mckitrick , Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt types: > On 9 Aug 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > :Mike Meyer writes: > :> address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left > :> the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the > :> general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 > :> bit operations. > :AFAIK, the 68k has separate data and address registers (d0-d7 and > :a0-a7 respectively) > You can use them all as general purpose registers. There might be some > restrictions, but I can't remember any. It's been quite a while though. Of > course, an OS will place restrictions on what registers you can use. No, DES is right. Data registers could be used for pretty much anything but the source of an address. They could be an offset from an address, including an address of 0, which pretty much made that immaterial. Address registers - besides being an address - could only be loaded, added, subtracted and moved. The stack pointer - always(?) a7 - also got tweaked by stack instructions. > Why does 68040 still scream "Oh, fast!" to me, and 1.4 GHz Athlon make me go > "So?" Because you know the 1.4GHz Athlon is going into a system with a system bus most of an order of magnitude slower than 1.4GHz? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 14:24:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 944E337B403 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 81202 invoked by uid 100); 9 Aug 2001 21:24:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15218.65422.812160.575351@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:24:30 -0500 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? In-Reply-To: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: Are you trying to generate discussion on the list? You're certainly hitting questions that would do that. > How would you argue to someone that we *need* anti-trust legislation, and > that controlling monopoly power is not just punishing the successful? I wouldn't, because I think they are generally a bad idea. I've as yet to hear of an example where a corporate monopoly was broken up and the public benefited. On the other hand, being a monopoly - or collusion between competitors - makes some business practices possible that aren't available without monopoly power. Some of those - economy of scale, for instance - are generally a good thing, and taking advantage of them can benefit everyone. Others allow a company to hurt or destroy competition without doing without benefiting the public, which is pretty much bad for everyone. A good example from the MSFT case is the ability to provide alternative "shells" for users. MSFT forced everyone who wanted to sell MSFT operating systems to sell it with the shell MSFT provided. By doing so, they killed an entire market, most notably a Netscape product. However, they also forced HP to drop their custom shell, which resulted in a serious increase in HP's support calls and costs. People having fewer problems with the custom shell is a strong argument that taking it away from them does them damage. The findings of the current case are full of instances of this kind of behavior. MSFT has been punished for this kind of behavior in the past. Since they can't seem to stop this, something needs to be done to take that ability away from them. Personally, I like the idea of forcing them to open-source all OS development, but that doesn't seem likely. To use their sports analogy, we're going to force Tiger Woods to play with a blindfold because he's repeatedly been caught using non-regulation balls in tournament play, and the warnings and fines haven't made him stop. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 15: 9: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B06E237B401 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 82956 invoked by uid 100); 9 Aug 2001 22:08:58 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15219.2554.597252.164723@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:08:58 -0500 To: j mckitrick Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Joseph Scott , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? In-Reply-To: <20010809184100.A93453@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010809184100.A93453@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:24:22AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > One of the claims made was that the government actually helped create the > AT&T monopoly, and that the USPS is also a monopoly. I think the second is > a poor example, but the first would merit some investigation. Why do you think the USPS is a poor example? Because it's provided for by the constitution? As for AT&T - the government set it up as a monopoly because they decided universal, interoperable phone service would be a good idea. The government mandated price structure had long distance and business users subsidizing low-end residential users to achieve that goal. A lot of people complain that the breakup caused a lot of headaches - which it did - and was thus a bad thing. I doubt that we'd be able to buy long distance at 2 cents/minute today if we had to buy it from AT&T, which makes the breakup a good thing. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 15:50:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B233137B409; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15Uyd7-0002PM-00; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:50:17 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79MoGa95715; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:50:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:50:15 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010809235015.A95638@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <15218.62861.955183.430680@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <15218.62861.955183.430680@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 03:41:49PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 03:41:49PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: | David Scheidt types: | > On 9 Aug 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: | > :Mike Meyer writes: | > :> address space was 32 bits - the top 8 got thrown away when you left | > :> the CPU - and it didn't have special registers for addressing, so the | > :> general registers had to be 32 bits wide and it had to have those 32 | > :> bit operations. | > :AFAIK, the 68k has separate data and address registers (d0-d7 and | > :a0-a7 respectively) | > You can use them all as general purpose registers. There might be some | > restrictions, but I can't remember any. It's been quite a while though. Of | > course, an OS will place restrictions on what registers you can use. | | No, DES is right. Data registers could be used for pretty much | anything but the source of an address. They could be an offset from an | address, including an address of 0, which pretty much made that | immaterial. Address registers - besides being an address - could only | be loaded, added, subtracted and moved. The stack pointer - always(?) | a7 - also got tweaked by stack instructions. | | > Why does 68040 still scream "Oh, fast!" to me, and 1.4 GHz Athlon make me go | > "So?" | | Because you know the 1.4GHz Athlon is going into a system with a | system bus most of an order of magnitude slower than 1.4GHz? OK, that's enough. You are making me want to take my Amiga out of storage. :-) jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 16: 8: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2EB337B405 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 84909 invoked by uid 100); 9 Aug 2001 23:08:00 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15219.6096.919542.322705@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:08:00 -0500 To: j mckitrick Cc: David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? In-Reply-To: <20010809235015.A95638@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <15218.62861.955183.430680@guru.mired.org> <20010809235015.A95638@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 03:41:49PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > | David Scheidt types: > | Because you know the 1.4GHz Athlon is going into a system with a > | system bus most of an order of magnitude slower than 1.4GHz? > > OK, that's enough. You are making me want to take my Amiga out of storage. > :-) For shame. After getting uae working and moving all my data, I gave mine to the local Amiga users group, which auctioned them off to help keep themselves in business. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 16:22:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB8537B405 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03945; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:20:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809171930.046e27a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:20:42 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15218.65422.812160.575351@guru.mired.org> References: <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010809150404.C92172@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:24 PM 8/9/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >I wouldn't, because I think they are generally a bad idea. I've as yet >to hear of an example where a corporate monopoly was broken up and the >public benefited. Four characters: AT&T. It's just a shame that they didn't break it up the right way, separating infrastructure from service. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 16:49:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B6E37B401; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15UzYL-000348-00; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:49:25 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f79NnNe96248; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:49:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:49:22 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010810004921.A96228@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <15218.62861.955183.430680@guru.mired.org> <20010809235015.A95638@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15219.6096.919542.322705@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <15219.6096.919542.322705@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 06:08:00PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 06:08:00PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: | j mckitrick types: | > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 03:41:49PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: | > | David Scheidt types: | > | Because you know the 1.4GHz Athlon is going into a system with a | > | system bus most of an order of magnitude slower than 1.4GHz? | > | > OK, that's enough. You are making me want to take my Amiga out of storage. | > :-) | | For shame. After getting uae working and moving all my data, I gave | mine to the local Amiga users group, which auctioned them off to help | keep themselves in business. Then again, since I *do* have a 3.5 inch drive (unlike my Commodore 5.25) I might try copying the warez. Does UAE read disks? jm -- "Investigators have discovered the cause of the TWA 800 explosion was a frayed wire. The wire became frayed when it was struck by a missile." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 18: 2:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C0E37B406 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (root@spare0.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.114]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07911; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:30:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.7 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010810004921.A96228@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:30:56 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: j mckitrick Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Aug-2001 j mckitrick wrote: > Then again, since I *do* have a 3.5 inch drive (unlike my Commodore 5.25) I > might try copying the warez. Does UAE read disks? Alas no, PC FDD controllers can't do the right magic. You can get various pieces of evil hardware to help you. (Up to and including an Amiga with a network card or serial connection :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 18:22:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8367C37B405 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.5/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7A1Mj547294; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 21:22:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 21:22:45 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Mike Meyer Cc: Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? In-Reply-To: <15219.2554.597252.164723@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <20010809211158.T46275-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Mike Meyer wrote: > As for AT&T - the government set it up as a monopoly because they > decided universal, interoperable phone service would be a good > idea. The government mandated price structure had long distance and > business users subsidizing low-end residential users to achieve that > goal. A lot of people complain that the breakup caused a lot of > headaches - which it did - and was thus a bad thing. I doubt that we'd > be able to buy long distance at 2 cents/minute today if we had to buy > it from AT&T, which makes the breakup a good thing. Before the breakup only devices provided by `the phone company' could be connected to the PTN. Every month, year after year, you paid for that same phone. For an individual their rates for an answering machine were out of the question. Remember acoustic modems? 150, or the luxurious 300, baud. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 18:28:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F26D137B401 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 93742 invoked by uid 100); 10 Aug 2001 01:28:07 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15219.14503.546639.574929@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:28:07 -0500 To: jack Cc: Subject: Re: Why anti-trust law? In-Reply-To: <20010809211158.T46275-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> References: <15219.2554.597252.164723@guru.mired.org> <20010809211158.T46275-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack types: > Today Mike Meyer wrote: > > > As for AT&T - the government set it up as a monopoly because they > > decided universal, interoperable phone service would be a good > > idea. The government mandated price structure had long distance and > > business users subsidizing low-end residential users to achieve that > > goal. A lot of people complain that the breakup caused a lot of > > headaches - which it did - and was thus a bad thing. I doubt that we'd > > be able to buy long distance at 2 cents/minute today if we had to buy > > it from AT&T, which makes the breakup a good thing. > Before the breakup only devices provided by `the phone company' > could be connected to the PTN. Every month, year after year, you > paid for that same phone. For an individual their rates for an > answering machine were out of the question. That changed before the breakup, but was one of the critical steps along the path. > Remember acoustic modems? 150, or the luxurious 300, baud. :) Yes. I even owned one. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 9 20:56: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2B937B406 for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010810035602.VONO27087.femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:56:02 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 23:55:45 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: calculating uptime Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I currently run Windows and Linux about evenly now, going several days at a time between voluntary reboots to switch to another OS. I got curious about how many of my reboots aren't voluntary (i.e., due to crashes/instability) so I started paying attention to the uptime. Since Windows has no uptime command, I downloaded a few available utilities designed to give the time since the OS was booted. The utilities I got seem to work differently. Some of them seem to calculate the difference between the current time and the boot time, and others seem to count the number of system ticks(*). Since I tend to put my computer to sleep while I'm not using it, this creates a pretty large discrepancy between the reported uptimes during the course of a week. My question is, what *is* the correct way to calculate uptime? Does the time that a computer is sleeping count? One the one hand it would seem that since the computer is idle that it shouldn't; on the other, since it can still respond to system events (and hence can still crash) it seems like it should count for something. What are your opinions? And what is the UNIX way? --Chip Morton (*) - And what the hell is a "tick" anyway? How many of these are there per second? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 10 0:11:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860A537B403; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:11:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@earthlink.net) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.244.105.174.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.105.174]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21895; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f7A7B6f06471; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:11:05 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Message-ID: <20010810001105.A6407@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:45:59PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:45:59PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 2:17:24 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Obviously, like my off the list references to the livelock papers > > I tried to send you, the direct email to you will bounce from your > > overambitious "spam" bouncer, which insists I'm a spammer because > > Earthlink bought my ISP and assignned me a mindspring address... > > Oh well... > > Hmm. I've checked my bounce log. Is this you? > > Out: 220 wantadilla.lemis.com ESMTP Postfix > In: EHLO smtp.netcabo.pt > In: MAIL FROM: SIZE=2352 > Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [212.113.174.249] > > That's the only reference I can find to Earthlink. I reject this > message, like many others, because it shows every sign of being spam. I use Earthlink and it looks like someone's blocked outgoing port 25 from their network that is not going to their own mail servers. If I do, $ telnet hub.freebsd.org 25 Trying 216.136.204.18... telnet: connect to address 216.136.204.18: Network dropped connection on reset telnet: Unable to connect to remote host I get blocked, # tcpdump -itun0 -n 00:07:29.298296 209.244.105.174.1184 > 216.136.204.18.25: S 3233816272:3233816272(0) win 16384 (DF) [tos 0x10] 00:07:29.435204 209.244.43.80 > 209.244.105.174: icmp: net 216.136.204.18 unreachable - admin prohibited $ host 209.244.43.80 80.43.244.209.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer nas16.sjo1.Level3.net I can otherwise access hub just fine. Only port 25 is affected. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 10 0:16: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A7C37B403; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4A00B6ACDC; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:46:17 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:46:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, admin@FreeBSD.org Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Blocking earthlink (was: How did the MSFT monopoly start?) Message-ID: <20010810164617.H37968@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010810001105.A6407@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010810001105.A6407@blossom.cjclark.org>; from cristjc@earthlink.net on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:11:05AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 10 August 2001 at 0:11:05 -0700, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:45:59PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 8 August 2001 at 2:17:24 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> >>> Obviously, like my off the list references to the livelock papers >>> I tried to send you, the direct email to you will bounce from your >>> overambitious "spam" bouncer, which insists I'm a spammer because >>> Earthlink bought my ISP and assignned me a mindspring address... >>> Oh well... >> >> Hmm. I've checked my bounce log. Is this you? >> >> Out: 220 wantadilla.lemis.com ESMTP Postfix >> In: EHLO smtp.netcabo.pt >> In: MAIL FROM: SIZE=2352 >> Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [212.113.174.249] >> >> That's the only reference I can find to Earthlink. I reject this >> message, like many others, because it shows every sign of being spam. > > I use Earthlink and it looks like someone's blocked outgoing port 25 > from their network that is not going to their own mail servers. If I > do, > > $ telnet hub.freebsd.org 25 > Trying 216.136.204.18... > telnet: connect to address 216.136.204.18: Network dropped connection on reset > telnet: Unable to connect to remote host > > I get blocked, > > # tcpdump -itun0 -n > 00:07:29.298296 209.244.105.174.1184 > 216.136.204.18.25: S 3233816272:3233816272(0) win 16384 (DF) [tos 0x10] > 00:07:29.435204 209.244.43.80 > 209.244.105.174: icmp: net 216.136.204.18 unreachable - admin prohibited > > $ host 209.244.43.80 > 80.43.244.209.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer nas16.sjo1.Level3.net > > I can otherwise access hub just fine. Only port 25 is affected. Hmm. Looks like a firewall rule. I don't know if that's intended; I'm copying admin@, who will possibly reply. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 10 0:57:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9647E37B405; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@earthlink.net) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.244.105.174.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.105.174]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA28281; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f7A7v6I06605; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:57:06 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Greg Lehey Cc: admin@FreeBSD.org, Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Blocking earthlink (was: How did the MSFT monopoly start?) Message-ID: <20010810005706.B6485@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010810001105.A6407@blossom.cjclark.org> <20010810164617.H37968@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010810164617.H37968@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:46:17PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:46:17PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: [snip] > > I use Earthlink and it looks like someone's blocked outgoing port 25 > > from their network that is not going to their own mail servers. If I > > do, > > > > $ telnet hub.freebsd.org 25 > > Trying 216.136.204.18... > > telnet: connect to address 216.136.204.18: Network dropped connection on reset > > telnet: Unable to connect to remote host > > > > I get blocked, > > > > # tcpdump -itun0 -n > > 00:07:29.298296 209.244.105.174.1184 > 216.136.204.18.25: S 3233816272:3233816272(0) win 16384 (DF) [tos 0x10] > > 00:07:29.435204 209.244.43.80 > 209.244.105.174: icmp: net 216.136.204.18 unreachable - admin prohibited > > > > $ host 209.244.43.80 > > 80.43.244.209.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer nas16.sjo1.Level3.net > > > > I can otherwise access hub just fine. Only port 25 is affected. > > Hmm. Looks like a firewall rule. I don't know if that's intended; > I'm copying admin@, who will possibly reply. I think you may have misunderstood. I believe _Earthlink_ is blocking outgoing SMTP (25/tcp) as an anti-spam measure. That machine producing the ICMP unreachable is my first hop, $ traceroute hub.freebsd.org traceroute to hub.freebsd.org (216.136.204.18), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 nas16.sjo1.Level3.net (209.244.43.80) 114.970 ms 118.485 ms 109.333 ms 2 gigabitethernet7-0-1.core2.SanJose1.Level3.net (63.215.14.3) 109.087 ms gigabitethernet7-0-2.core2.SanJose1.Level3.net (63.215.15.3) 108.277 ms gigabitethernet7-0-1.core2.SanJose1.Level3.net (63.215.14.3) 107.879 ms 3 gigabitethernet10-2.ipcolo3.SanJose1.Level3.net (64.159.2.169) 107.590 ms 108.293 ms 108.825 ms 4 cust-int.level3.net (64.152.69.18) 109.094 ms 118.089 ms 109.310 ms 5 ge-1-3-0.msr1.pao.yahoo.com (216.115.100.150) 109.079 ms 108.327 ms 109.108 ms 6 vl22.bas1.sc5.yahoo.com (216.115.100.233) 118.835 ms 108.502 ms 109.206 ms 7 hub.freebsd.org (216.136.204.18) 118.861 ms 108.087 ms 118.898 ms -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 10 3:12:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954DB37B430 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f7AABWS13570; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:11:34 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010810001105.A6407@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <20010806142544.A64348@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15214.52633.581653.632317@guru.mired.org> <3B6F98D0.A3C22CC9@mindspring.com> <20010808160551.Q78395@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3B7103A4.558B9B3B@mindspring.com> <20010809124559.G73579@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010810001105.A6407@blossom.cjclark.org> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:57:52 +0200 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: How did the MSFT monopoly start? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:11 AM -0700 8/10/01, Crist J. Clark wrote: > I use Earthlink and it looks like someone's blocked outgoing port 25 > from their network that is not going to their own mail servers. If I > do, Yup. Like Verizon & MSN. IMO, this is a good thing for most customers, because it prevents them from being abused as open relays. For those few that are capable of properly administering their mail server, I would expect them to be willing and able to pay more for a business-grade account that would allow them to have direct (and unfettered) Internet access. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 11 8:59:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B896B37B408 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ntlworld.com) Received: from parish ([62.255.97.7]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010811155911.WFEV15984.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:59:11 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f7BFxDU27285; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:59:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:59:08 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Technical Information Subject: Re: calculating uptime Message-ID: <20010811165908.B275@parish> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:55:45PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:55:45PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: > I currently run Windows and Linux about evenly now, What about FreeBSD? > going several days at a > time between voluntary reboots to switch to another OS. I got curious > about how many of my reboots aren't voluntary (i.e., due to > crashes/instability) so I started paying attention to the uptime. > > Since Windows has no uptime command, W2K does, although it cheats. If you "suspend to disk" and then resume it 2 weeks later it includes those 2 weeks in the uptime. > I downloaded a few available utilities > designed to give the time since the OS was booted. The utilities I got > seem to work differently. Some of them seem to calculate the difference > between the current time and the boot time, and others seem to count the > number of system ticks(*). Since I tend to put my computer to sleep while > I'm not using it, this creates a pretty large discrepancy between the > reported uptimes during the course of a week. > > My question is, what *is* the correct way to calculate uptime? Does the > time that a computer is sleeping count? One the one hand it would seem > that since the computer is idle that it shouldn't; on the other, since it > can still respond to system events (and hence can still crash) it seems > like it should count for something. What are your opinions? And what is > the UNIX way? > By "sleeping" I presume that you mean Power Management/Energy Saving features? As you quite rightly point out the OS is still running it's just that the CPU is "slowed down" and disks are spun down etc. so this should count as uptime, the OS can still respond to system events as you point out and, I would imagine, Windows could die in it's sleep ;-) > --Chip Morton > > (*) - And what the hell is a "tick" anyway? How many of these are there > per second? > It's one of the system timers and is 18.2 (I think, it's 18 point something anyway) ticks/second. I can't remember exactly what it's used for, but it is a fixed speed irrespective of the speed of the system - it's 18.2/sec on a 25MHz 486 and a 1.4GHz P4. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 11 11:16:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB65637B408; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 11:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010811181628.HZAW20799.femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com>; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 11:16:28 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010811140656.0181bc88@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:16:15 -0400 To: Mark Ovens From: Technical Information Subject: Re: calculating uptime Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20010811165908.B275@parish> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:59 AM 8/11/2001, Mark Ovens wrote: >On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:55:45PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: > > I currently run Windows and Linux about evenly now, > >What about FreeBSD? The XFree86 3.3.6 included with the latest shipping version of FreeBSD 4.3 didn't have drivers for my fancy Voodoo 5 video card. So until I figure out how to install XFree86 4.1 on FreeBSD without using sysintall, I'm running Red Hat 7.1. Interestingly, I do occasionally run FreeBSD in emulation on the Red Hat system. > > going several days at a > > time between voluntary reboots to switch to another OS. I got curious > > about how many of my reboots aren't voluntary (i.e., due to > > crashes/instability) so I started paying attention to the uptime. > > > > Since Windows has no uptime command, > >W2K does, although it cheats. If you "suspend to disk" and then resume it 2 >weeks later it includes those 2 weeks in the uptime. So what about FreeBSD and other forms of UNIX? Do they increment their uptime while they sleep? I mean, in some respects it seems fair. The system is sleeping, not completely off. Much in the same way that you still age while you sleep, so the age of a 36-year-old still include the 12 or so years during which that person has slept. What brought about my question is that the Windows utilities that I downloaded exhibit different behaviour in this regard, and I'm wondering which is really "correct." I've never put a UNIX system to sleep, but how does UNIX do it? > > I downloaded a few available utilities > > designed to give the time since the OS was booted. The utilities I got > > seem to work differently. Some of them seem to calculate the difference > > between the current time and the boot time, and others seem to count the > > number of system ticks(*). Since I tend to put my computer to sleep while > > I'm not using it, this creates a pretty large discrepancy between the > > reported uptimes during the course of a week. > > > > My question is, what *is* the correct way to calculate uptime? Does the > > time that a computer is sleeping count? One the one hand it would seem > > that since the computer is idle that it shouldn't; on the other, since it > > can still respond to system events (and hence can still crash) it seems > > like it should count for something. What are your opinions? And what is > > the UNIX way? > > > >By "sleeping" I presume that you mean Power Management/Energy Saving >features? As you quite rightly point out the OS is still running it's just >that the CPU is "slowed down" and disks are spun down etc. so this should >count as uptime, the OS can still respond to system events as you point out >and, I would imagine, Windows could die in it's sleep ;-) Yes, Windows can die in it's sleep. I've had this happen a number of times on various computers. And many of them will go to sleep and not wake up. Wonder if they're still increasing they're uptime when they're terminally comatose like this. ;-) --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 11 12:33:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14EC37B401 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ntlworld.com) Received: from parish ([62.253.85.89]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010811193348.VFOE29790.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:33:48 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f7BJXtB00456; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:33:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:33:55 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: calculating uptime Message-ID: <20010811203355.A295@parish> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010809225151.017e6580@threespace.com> <20010811165908.B275@parish> <4.3.2.7.2.20010811140656.0181bc88@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010811140656.0181bc88@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:16:15PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:16:15PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: > At 11:59 AM 8/11/2001, Mark Ovens wrote: > >On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:55:45PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: > > > I currently run Windows and Linux about evenly now, > > > >What about FreeBSD? > > The XFree86 3.3.6 included with the latest shipping version of FreeBSD 4.3 > didn't have drivers for my fancy Voodoo 5 video card. So until I figure > out how to install XFree86 4.1 on FreeBSD without using sysintall, I'm > running Red Hat 7.1. Interestingly, I do occasionally run FreeBSD in > emulation on the Red Hat system. > > > > > > going several days at a > > > time between voluntary reboots to switch to another OS. I got curious > > > about how many of my reboots aren't voluntary (i.e., due to > > > crashes/instability) so I started paying attention to the uptime. > > > > > > Since Windows has no uptime command, > > > >W2K does, although it cheats. If you "suspend to disk" and then resume it 2 > >weeks later it includes those 2 weeks in the uptime. > > So what about FreeBSD and other forms of UNIX? Do they increment their > uptime while they sleep? Yes. Looking at the source for uptime(1) it just subtracts the kernel boot time from the current time. W2K's Suspend To Disk is different to sleeping though. It writes an image of memory to a disk file and then shuts down. You can then boot another OS or even power off the machine. When you reboot W2K it reads back the memory image thus restoring the OS (and all your running apps) to the state they were in at shutdown. Therefore the OS most definitely isn't running so the time it is suspended to disk should not be included in the uptime. Guess this is the only way W2K can achieve Unix-like uptimes :-) Someone on these lists has/had the .sig "Unix measures uptimes in years, Windows measures it in minutes" > I mean, in some respects it seems fair. The > system is sleeping, not completely off. Much in the same way that you > still age while you sleep, so the age of a 36-year-old still include the 12 > or so years during which that person has slept. > > What brought about my question is that the Windows utilities that I > downloaded exhibit different behaviour in this regard, and I'm wondering > which is really "correct." I've never put a UNIX system to sleep, but how > does UNIX do it? > > > > > > I downloaded a few available utilities > > > designed to give the time since the OS was booted. The utilities I got > > > seem to work differently. Some of them seem to calculate the difference > > > between the current time and the boot time, and others seem to count the > > > number of system ticks(*). Since I tend to put my computer to sleep while > > > I'm not using it, this creates a pretty large discrepancy between the > > > reported uptimes during the course of a week. > > > > > > My question is, what *is* the correct way to calculate uptime? Does the > > > time that a computer is sleeping count? One the one hand it would seem > > > that since the computer is idle that it shouldn't; on the other, since it > > > can still respond to system events (and hence can still crash) it seems > > > like it should count for something. What are your opinions? And what is > > > the UNIX way? > > > > > > >By "sleeping" I presume that you mean Power Management/Energy Saving > >features? As you quite rightly point out the OS is still running it's just > >that the CPU is "slowed down" and disks are spun down etc. so this should > >count as uptime, the OS can still respond to system events as you point out > >and, I would imagine, Windows could die in it's sleep ;-) > > Yes, Windows can die in it's sleep. I've had this happen a number of times > on various computers. And many of them will go to sleep and not wake > up. Wonder if they're still increasing they're uptime when they're > terminally comatose like this. ;-) > I thought "terminally comatose" was the normal state for Windows ;-) > --Chip Morton > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message