From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 14 0:24:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7884037B401 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.225.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.225]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9E7KA429151; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC93CDD.484C9806@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:21:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Returned mail: see transcript for details References: <20011013010553.A343@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I know a fair bit about the protein folding problem, including the > fact that it's not as simple as you think (or as many naive physicists > think). I have one or two tricks up my sleeve, and I know other tricks that others have up their sleeves. If you really are going after the problem, I urge you to pool your information with myself or another Senior Associate of the Foresight Institute. > There will certainly be money in it, but I doubt the money > will go to IBM simply for supplying the computer, any more than money > for solving existing computational problems goes to the computer > manufacturers. People will buy the equipment from the manufacturer who first builds it, in preference to other equipment. It's how people who make business decisions think. > Moreover, the protein folding problem is much more than a > computational problem. In its stripped down form, it is often > stated as "mapping a protein sequence to its fold", and then it is > imagined that doing a molecular dynamics simulation of the protein > chain will be able to predict its fold, if carried out long enough. It's generally accepted that protein folding has an intermediate step, in which there is a "scaffolding" that is erected. One approach that's frequently ignored is the software engineering approach: We already have these little factories called "mitochondria", and we already program them in E. Coli to manufature proteins like human insulain, without really understanding how that happens. Modern software engineering, sadly, seems to include a lot of people who don't understand the code that their compiler is going to output for a given source file. These people treat the compiler as if it were a black box, and as a result, they build code that's not nearly efficient as it could be, if they understood their tools. On the other hand, they can still do useful work, treating it as a black box. > > I think you are mixing passenger railway with freight railway, > > Well, yes, when referring to public services which are not > successfully privatised, I was talking about passenger railway. > > > and concluding because people don't like passenger rail service > > in the U.S. more than they like getting there quickly by plane, > > or having daily control over their own schedules (how many dates > > would you be able to have on the spur of the moment, if you were > > required to take a relatively slow train home before you could > > get in your car and drive to the date location?) > > Train travel is, of course, suitable only to some ranges of distances. > One would not expect to travel from New York to Los Angeles by train. > However, Los Angeles to San Francisco should certainly be possible, > and a train travel between two such major cities separated by such a > difference in France (say, Paris to Marseille) would take 3 or 4 > hours, and there are several trains a day. For LA-SF, you can easily > look at the amtrak site and find you can't do it without changing, > taking bus connections, etc and spending over 8 hours. (I know that > example because I needed to do that recently; but I've been told that > it's the same, or worse, all over the US. It's a bit better on the > east coast in the Washington-New York-Boston zone, I admit; but still > doesn't approach the efficiency of the SNCF in France. (Since the > faster Paris-Marseille track opened a few months ago, air tickets on > that route are going unsold, while the train, which runs several times > a day, is booked out well in advance.) Frankly, I'd rather take a convertable down the Pacific Coast Highway; the journey would be infinitely more enjoyable, not include having to work to get on and off, and not run the risk of some moron throwing Antrax into the environmental controls, since a train is a nice enclosed tube with a lot of people to efficiently attack all at once that way. My risk is a hell of a lot less in my car with only one or two passengers: I'm much less of a target that way anyway. [ ... trains as a means of transportation ... ] The only way you are going to get people to take public transportation in the U.S. is if you make it free, and make private transportation prohibitively expensive. Even then, you will only success in clearing the highways of all but the economic upper classes. Right now, trains and other public transportation in the U.S. is predominantly limited to the economically low end (the bottom end can't afford it, because we like to believe we'[d like people to take it, but in fact, we don't want to make it free, because if we did, it'd be overloaded). > > It's not surprising to me that FedEx and DHL, whose main > > claim to market share in India is that they are able to send > > and deliver internationally, would be more expensive. > > How about France, where also they are more expensive? They are U.S. companies; given their protectionist tariffs on farm produce, I'd expect French companies to end up being cheaper than foreign competitors. > Besides, I was referring to delivery prices within India > (strictly speaking, I was referring to a francisee of FedEx > called Blue Dart, and a franchisee of DHL whose name I forget). India is even more protectionist than France or Japan. They also have a reputation for making it very difficult to start or maintain a business: graft and corruption being rampant, with bribery often being necesary to obtain business licenses, and with waits in excess of 3 months common; in the U.S., it's around two weeks to obtain a license, and in Singapore, you can be up and selling your wares in a single day. It's no wonder that a foreign owned service company would find themselves disadvantaged in such an environment. > > You're wrong. If the postal system were not a state monopoly > > in most countries, it would be easy to compete on purely > > economic terms, using more modern automation than that used > > by them. > > The cost isn't the "automation" in sorting and so on; it's in delivery > at the doorstep of the recipient. Postal departments everywhere have > a reach which extends to the remotest villages, because governments > have supplied such links as parts of basic infrastructure. Couriers > will not find it cost-effective to make door-to-door delivery of > ordinary letters at such rates (40 cents in France, 4 cents in India, > whatever). FedEx has regional centers; initially, before their volume became so large, they sent all the planes to Nashville, Tennesee, sorted them all, and sent them back out. This approach is orders of magnitude more efficient than that used by the U.S.P.S., even if sorting is the only thing that changes. Realize also that the U.S.P.S. is unionized, and thus has a vested interest in resisting automation in order to protect jobs, even if there is a higher cost. > In fact I know the Indian rates are subsidised and not > profitable; the postal department tries to recover the cost from > things like courier services. For the same reason, private > transport operators tend not to serve remote low-populated areas, > and it is often left to government-run transport to serve those > markets; these routes are not profitable for the government either, > but they cross-subsidise them from other routes or other income > sources. Regulations can require service for rural areas in order to permit service in non-rural areas. This is how the U.S. telephone system and road system operate -- as well as the U.S. power grid, etc.. > > This seems to be an issue that's really a problem with the > > WTO, and with India's system, in particular. The U.S. > > patent office actually worked: it rejected the patent. > > For turmeric, and after representation from India. Not for neem > (margosa, I think, in English) and other herbal products, so far. > Those patents still exist. People can use those herbs without the patent. You can't patent naturally occurring materials: you can only patent alternate manufacturing or purification processes for the active ingredients. [ ... abuses of the U.S. patent system ... ] > Sure. The point is it's rather frequent. India is not the only > country affected. And you claimed it's not possible to do this, > which is not true. It's not possible to _successfully_ do this. The Turmeric (Tumeric) patent case proves that. > > It's ridiculous in that countries do not have to overthrow > > such patents, not because of the process involved in doing > > that. > > They most certainly do have to overthrow them, at some point, if they > want an open market for export of these products, which they do rather > actively. Otherwise they'd be violating a patent. Perhaps you're > arguing that they can ignore them and pretend the patent doesn't > exist, and the multinational who got the patent won't sue. I don't > see that happening, and it's probably cheaper to overthrow the thing > to begin with than to sit and wait for a patent-infringement lawsuit > and then tackle that. That's what I'm saying, and that's what I'm claiming India in fact did, using U.S. public opinion as a shield. Yes, this won't work every time, but it worked that time. > > In any case, I was referring to the financial interest of the > > countries, like the U.S. and India, which stand to make a > > much larger amount of money from AIDS treatments than they > > would, were they to actually cure the disease. > > I can't really say about the US, but India and other developing > countries are certainly not making any money from AIDS treatments. You're saying that the drugs are being sold at cost? The news stories from non-U.S. sources (Reuter's, London Times, and D.W.T.V.) which I saw at the time indicated that they were merely undercutting prices, and taking a "minimal profit" -- not a break-even or a loss. Following U.S. public outcry, U.S. companies are now doing the same: taking a minimal profit, and grumbling that the market isn't nearly as profitable as it used to be. > > India did not approach AIDS drug shipments to Africa as the > > purely humanitarian endeavor that they claimed: > > Ah now you're referring to a specific Bombay-based pharmaceutical > company, Cipla, as "India". I could equally well refer to Monsanto > as "The US". That's just silly. By "India" one can mean, most > restrictively, the Indian government, but preferably a broader > index like the GDP. To claim that India would make a gain, one > would have to show that Cipla's gains were offset by the huge > costs of government-sponsored AIDS treatment within India itself. You might as well make the association; the U.S. is not being given credit for humanitarian aid spent in treating AIDS and other ills outside the U.S, they are only held accountable for what U.S. companies do. It's only fair that other nations be held to the same standard you hold the U.S. to. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 14 22:43: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from segfault.kiev.ua (segfault.kiev.ua [193.193.193.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F5537B40C; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by segfault.kiev.ua (8) with UUCP id IQL64033; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:42:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from netch@iv.nn.kiev.ua) Received: (from netch@localhost) by iv.nn.kiev.ua (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9F5g3u01507; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:42:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from netch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:42:03 +0300 From: Valentin Nechayev To: Bsdguru@aol.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Imagestream WanIC-520 interface cards Message-ID: <20011015084203.A446@iv.nn.kiev.ua> References: <11f.5a43fcd.28fb1e4e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <11f.5a43fcd.28fb1e4e@aol.com>; from Bsdguru@aol.com on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:58:54PM -0400 X-42: On Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (redirected to -chat. it's pity that there are no freebsd-flame@ redirected to /dev/null;)) Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:58:54, Bsdguru (Bsdguru@aol.com) wrote about "Re: Imagestream WanIC-520 interface cards": > Thats pretty lame Matt. I hope you're joking. (Otherwise you should carefully consider your own lameness.;)) > sort of like saying unix sucks because of all of the > bugs and growing pains over the years. Zebra has come a long way, and its as > easy to configure as a cisco. Your problems with gated and BSDI have more to > do with those organizations than anything else, plus it is stuck with an ill > conceived interface. There is a host near me who panic'ed each time zebra was running at it. (I couldn't even understand core dump - stack and process list were filled with garbage. Possibly, nlist was overwritten? And no disctinct diagnosis was got from it...) Now it lives with gated without such strange problems. This was only one small example. If you aren't lame you should understand that external conditions can be so strange that cannot allow your The Only Right Way. > Lets face it, if cisco didnt tell you what to type into your config file > almost noone would be able to get them to work either. Do you work with cisco tightly? (Question maybe is rhitoric) /netch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 2:34:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smeg.twowaytv.co.uk (smeg.twowaytv.co.uk [194.6.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1A237B40B; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (alex@localhost) by smeg.twowaytv.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9F9YQ009319; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:34:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from adyas@twowaytv.co.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: : alex owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:34:26 +0100 (BST) From: Alex Dyas X-X-Sender: To: Cc: Subject: CD Writer success Message-ID: <20011015092729.F2795-100000@> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, just thought i'd follow up my initial requests for suggestions on a cd writer. i now have a fully working HP9600 with an adaptec 2906 SCSI controller. the first burn was a breeze following the handbook documentation. i was also very pleasantly surprised to see FreeBSD listed in the OS list on the adaptec site, all be it mentioned as a linux distro. i've emailed adaptec accordingly. thanks all who replied with suggestions. alex.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 5:29:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from venice.iwaynet.net (venice.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31D537B40C for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (IDENT:nobody@venice.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.17]) by venice.iwaynet.net (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with ESMTP id f9FCVpJZ028477; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:51 -0400 Received: from 204.210.226.249 ( [204.210.226.249]) as user cfuhrman@pop.iwaynet.net by webmail.iwaynet.net with HTTP; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:51 -0400 Message-ID: <1003149111.3bcad7371fbe3@webmail.iwaynet.net> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:51 -0400 From: cfuhrman@tfcci.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Shell Providers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 204.210.226.249 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, Trying to look for a good shell provider out there (preferably in the Columbus,OH area). Can anyone recommend one? I'm having issues with my present one plus it's difficult to find one that has everything I need. Here's what I'm looking for: * SSH * Procmail (for filtering out spam) * IMAP * Pine mail reader * Apache Web Server * Rsync * RELIABILITY Here's some things that would be nice to have but I can live without: * irc * bash * emacs * PHP support (just starting to get into PHP programming) * Running OpenBSD (although Net-, Free-, or Linux will do in a pinch) * Webmail access I'm having issues with trying to run my spam-filtering scripts on my dial-up connected UN*X box so I'd rather offload everything to a separate provider (oh to have DSL again). Cheers! -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 5:29:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from venice.iwaynet.net (venice.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A76837B40C for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (IDENT:nobody@venice.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.17]) by venice.iwaynet.net (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with ESMTP id f9FCVxJZ028481; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:59 -0400 Received: from 204.210.226.249 ( [204.210.226.249]) as user cfuhrman@pop.iwaynet.net by webmail.iwaynet.net with HTTP; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:59 -0400 Message-ID: <1003149119.3bcad73f46ce6@webmail.iwaynet.net> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:59 -0400 From: cfuhrman@tfcci.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Shell Providers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 204.210.226.249 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, Trying to look for a good shell provider out there (preferably in the Columbus,OH area). Can anyone recommend one? I'm having issues with my present one plus it's difficult to find one that has everything I need. Here's what I'm looking for: * SSH * Procmail (for filtering out spam) * IMAP * Pine mail reader * Apache Web Server * Rsync * RELIABILITY Here's some things that would be nice to have but I can live without: * irc * bash * emacs * PHP support (just starting to get into PHP programming) * Running OpenBSD (although Net-, Free-, or Linux will do in a pinch) * Webmail access I'm having issues with trying to run my spam-filtering scripts on my dial-up connected UN*X box so I'd rather offload everything to a separate provider (oh to have DSL again). Cheers! -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 10:38:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A3E37B401 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id f9FHcjv18158 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:38:45 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [lonstein@pobox.com: Jerkcity] Message-ID: <20011015103845.C18000@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from "R. Lonstein" ----- Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:10:09 -0400 From: "R. Lonstein" To: advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Jerkcity http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1110.gif This one is for the archives! - Ross ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 10:45:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2892A37B40E for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA57453; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:45:24 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Josef Grosch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [lonstein@pobox.com: Jerkcity] In-Reply-To: <20011015103845.C18000@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from "R. Lonstein" ----- > > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:10:09 -0400 > From: "R. Lonstein" > To: advocacy@openbsd.org > Subject: Jerkcity > > http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1110.gif Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Im making a shirt out of this one! ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (816) 464-7780 | Sr. Unix Administrator Work: chris.watson@twa.com | Trans World Airlines, Kansas City, MO Home: scanner@jurai.net | http://www.twa.com ============================================================================= WINDOWS: All our IP belongs to us. GNU/LINUX: Touch our IP, and your IP belongs to us. BSD: Here's our IP, just use it. ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 11:18:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from supai.oit.umass.edu (supai.oit.umass.edu [128.119.175.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053AF37B408 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by supai.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38130) id <0GL900701EQTIL@supai.oit.umass.edu> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lessing.oit.umass.edu (lessing.oit.umass.edu [128.119.166.128]) by supai.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38130) with ESMTP id <0GL9005H8EQT3G@supai.oit.umass.edu> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (gp@localhost) by lessing.oit.umass.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22629 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:18:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Greg Pavelcak Subject: Making Appointments By Computer X-Sender: gp@lessing.oit.umass.edu To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Authentication-warning: lessing.oit.umass.edu: gp owned process doing -bs Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I'm posting to chat because this is not particularly FreeBSD related. I was just hoping to dip into the knowledge pool here. I work in an undergraduate advising office. We want to handle freshmen advising in groups of 10 and let them sign up for the times themselves. Our first thought was to make a web page, add a form, and have it count down from 10, letting the students know how many spaces were available at each time, or, at the very least, stopping the sign-ups when the limit was reached. I have found many counter scripts on-line, but I am not in charge of our web-server, and although I'm running FreeBSD 4.3, I don't think I can learn Apache in the next couple days and get a web-server running (or can I?). My other thought was to create a freshmen login account on my computer that basically does nothing other than run a script that gives them info on available times and allows them to sign up, but I'm worried about the accuracy of the information if several people log in to make appointments simultaneously. Any pointers/advice/recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 16: 6: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 9A04937B40E; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:05:59 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: more shirts Message-ID: <20011015160559.A34087@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Speaking of shirts, I thought I'd throw out a cheap plug for some stuff. http://www.beerho.com/store/ Not my stuff, but the cereal box was my idea. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 15 20:41:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AEE37B403 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EA90A6AB1A; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:11:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:11:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: I'll be in Europe in November. Anything interesting to do? Message-ID: <20011016131144.E67583@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'll be going to the EuroBSDCon next month. Since it's at the other end of the world, it seems like a good idea to do something else while I'm there. Does anybody have any suggestions? The Con is in England, of course, but I'm not limiting myself to England. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 16 6:54:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDA937B40D for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f9GDsVj10425; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10126; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10122; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:54:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:54:31 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: cfuhrman@tfcci.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell Providers? In-Reply-To: <1003149119.3bcad73f46ce6@webmail.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 cfuhrman@tfcci.com wrote: > Howdy, > > Trying to look for a good shell provider out there (preferably in the > Columbus,OH area). Can anyone recommend one? I'm having issues with my > present one plus it's difficult to find one that has everything I need. > > Here's what I'm looking for: > > * SSH > * Procmail (for filtering out spam) > * IMAP > * Pine mail reader > * Apache Web Server > * Rsync > * RELIABILITY > > Here's some things that would be nice to have but I can live without: > > * irc > * bash > * emacs > * PHP support (just starting to get into PHP programming) > * Running OpenBSD (although Net-, Free-, or Linux will do in a pinch) > * Webmail access > > I'm having issues with trying to run my spam-filtering scripts on my dial-up > connected UN*X box so I'd rather offload everything to a separate provider (oh > to have DSL again). Arbornet.org J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 16 8:40:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D01C37B403 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A79AF14C2E; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:40:42 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemptible kernel" From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Oct 2001 17:40:42 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Love is writing a patch to make the Linux kernel preemptible, and has some interesting ideas about FreeBSD: http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=328&mode=thread&order=0 DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 16 8:44:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-3.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A931837B408 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2826D66B10; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:44:17 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemptible kernel" Message-ID: <20011016084416.A18322@xor.obsecurity.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:40:42PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:40:42PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Robert Love is writing a patch to make the Linux kernel preemptible, > and has some interesting ideas about FreeBSD: >=20 > http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=3D328&mode=3Dthread&order=3D0 AFAIK the FreeBSD 5.0 kernel is not fully preemptible either. jhb was/is working on it but was having problems with stability. Kris --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7zFXQWry0BWjoQKURAmbXAJ0b3P1+hak7CedSmgCitDSSu/aAhACgx23d qqkUmgCTAJsPIQ6SEV1snWw= =ad/y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 16 8:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C20A37B40A for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 0978717BC1; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E212A15CC5; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:55:07 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Making Appointments By Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm posting to chat because this is not particularly FreeBSD related. > I was just hoping to dip into the knowledge pool here. > > I work in an undergraduate advising office. We want to handle > freshmen advising in groups of 10 and let them sign up for the times > themselves. Our first thought was to make a web page, add a form, and > have it count down from 10, letting the students know how many spaces > were available at each time, or, at the very least, stopping the > sign-ups when the limit was reached. I have found many counter > scripts on-line, but I am not in charge of our web-server, and > although I'm running FreeBSD 4.3, I don't think I can learn Apache in > the next couple days and get a web-server running (or can I?). > > My other thought was to create a freshmen login account on my > computer that basically does nothing other than run a script that > gives them info on available times and allows them to sign up, > but I'm worried about the accuracy of the information if several > people log in to make appointments simultaneously. To do this right, you really need a database, which can handle the locking and multiple access problems for you. Basically, show the user the available slots, have them pick on, grab a lock, update the database. If you can't do the update (because someone else signed up for the last spot between the check, and your udate attempt), tell teh user "sorry", pick another. The same approach works whether you're web or terminal based. (If the amount of use isn't very high, you can futz with flat files and lockfiles, but that's a pain.) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 16 13:24:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hanmail.net (s210-218-137-102.thrunet.ne.kr [210.218.137.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EAC0337B401 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: rksekgoo@hanmail.net From: Rin To: Subject: [홍보] ■ 평생혜택을 받는 추천사이트 ■ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 05:24:23 +0900 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Mailtouch 1.0 Message-Id: <20011016202416.EAC0337B401@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
 추천사이트입니다.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
분명 저는 이메일 제목에 '홍보메일'임을 밝혔습니다. 그러므로
보실분만 보실 수 있고, 그렇지 않으면 바로 삭제가 가능합니다.
귀하의 수신의사를 존중하는 것입니다.
귀하의 이메일주소는 인터넷 검색을 하다가 알게 되었습니다.
원치 않으시는 분은 그냥 읽지 않으셔도 좋습니다. 정말 죄송합니다.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
■ http://hantuja.wo.to ■
 ☞ 보시면 아실 것입니다. 획기적인 무료사이트입니다.
     평생 제공되는 다양한 혜택!

■ http://ezguide.wo.to ■
 ☞ (랜덤 실시간 음악재생, 선택 실시간 음악재생, 멀티검색 & 음악검색,
 음악방송국, 사이트 모음, 재미있는 플래쉬, 각종신문, 만화, 뮤직관련정보,
 잡지정보, 유틸리티 등등...) 위의 정보를 무료로 이용 가능합니다.
 'EZ-GUIDE' 웹서핑할시에 따라다니는 인터넷 가이드입니다.

접속을 하시든 안 하시든 그건 귀하의 선택입니다!
----------------------------------------------------------------
- 본 메일은 다음과 같습니다.
* 한 사람에게는 한번만 발송합니다.
* 불법적인 광고내용을 보내지 않습니다.
* 저에게 자유롭게 문의(jpdman@hanmail.net)가 가능, 수신거부 가능합니다.
* 큰 용량의 메일을 보내지 않으며, 바이러스는 절대 첨부하지 않습니다.
* 사용자에게 최대한 피해를 주지 않으려고 노력합니다.
* 메일제목에 분명 광고메일임을 밝히고 있습니다.
  받는 분이 메일을 열지 않은 상태에서 바로 삭제가 가능합니다.
* 받는 사람에 대해 어떠한 정보도 가지고 있지 않습니다.
위의 사항중 받는 분이 생각하기에 그렇지 않다고 생각하시는 점도 있을
것임. 하지만 위의 사항을 모두 지키기 위해 노력합니다.
* 그래도 스팸메일이 불안하시면 현재 이메일 도착한
  주소(rksekgoo@hanmail.net)를 수신거부자 리스트에 등록시키면
  절대 가지 않습니다.
----------------------------------------------------------------
To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 16 15:58:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF30837B40A for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx ([24.2.39.156]) by femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011016225845.IEXS21343.femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com@laptop.baldwin.cx>; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:58:45 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011016084416.A18322@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemp Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Oct-01 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:40:42PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> Robert Love is writing a patch to make the Linux kernel preemptible, >> and has some interesting ideas about FreeBSD: >> >> http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=328&mode=thread&order=0 > > AFAIK the FreeBSD 5.0 kernel is not fully preemptible either. jhb > was/is working on it but was having problems with stability. Last time I played with it, it was stable on UP x86. It was mostly stable on UP alpha (had a problem where it didn't flush all teh buffers on shutdown) and locked up instantly on SMP x86. It is sitting in a very stale perforce tree (jhb_preemption - //depot/users/jhb/preemption/) that I will be getting back to eventually. > Kris -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 17 11:16:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6B537B42B for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12684; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:15:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011017120858.046a58a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:15:52 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemptible kernel" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:40 AM 10/16/2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Robert Love is writing a patch to make the Linux kernel preemptible, >and has some interesting ideas about FreeBSD: > >http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=328&mode=thread&order=0 Kernel pre-emption is tough to retrofit into a kernel, but not hard to put in if you're writing one from scratch. SVS' "Integrity" (http://www.ghs.com/products/rtos/integrity.html) has had it for quite some time. The RTOS never turns off interrupts, though it does ignore those that come in while a previous interrupt from the same source is being handled. As for SMP: It's probably more efficient to have intelligent I/O and/or asymmetrical multiprocessing (i.e. one or more CPUs devoted exclusively to handling non-intelligent peripherals) than to have multiple general-purpose processors fielding I/O requests. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 17 13:39:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B5B37B435 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx ([24.2.39.156]) by femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011017203915.VGZT2467.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@laptop.baldwin.cx>; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:39:15 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011017120858.046a58a0@localhost> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemp Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Oct-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:40 AM 10/16/2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >>Robert Love is writing a patch to make the Linux kernel preemptible, >>and has some interesting ideas about FreeBSD: >> >>http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=328&mode=thread&order=0 > > Kernel pre-emption is tough to retrofit into a kernel, but not hard > to put in if you're writing one from scratch. SVS' "Integrity" > (http://www.ghs.com/products/rtos/integrity.html) has had it for > quite some time. The RTOS never turns off interrupts, though it does > ignore those that come in while a previous interrupt from the same > source is being handled. Actually, it's not that hard at all with interrupt threads already in place in -current. You just do a simple check in setrunqueue() to see if you should switch to the new thread/process when it's put on the runq (i.e. is its priority higher than your current thread/process.) The only remaining trick is to not preempt during critical sections which are already marked by our critical_enter/exit API. Basically, if we are in a critical section, then setrunqueue() sets a flag in the current thread rather than switching, and when we call critical_exit() to exit the critical section we switch if that flag is set (i.e. we delay the preemption until we exit the critical section). It actualy is fairly simple, and it removes things like the MTX_NOSWITCH flag and the SWI_SWITCH/SWI_NOSWITCH flags thus simplifying some interfaces. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 18 1:22:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A447237B40B for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from david-lock.myrealbox.com Locky@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [203.212.146.89] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.86 $ on Novell NetWare; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:22:45 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.1.20011018182552.00a96f00@mail.myrealbox.com> X-Sender: Locky@mail.myrealbox.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:26:05 +1000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Locky Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do I subscribe? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 19 9:28:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A48937B401 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9JGS9711559; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:28:09 +0200 (CEST) To: Gavin Atkinson Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <1003508889.3bd054997f004@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:28:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.163.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ not sure -questions is best for this topic... ] Gavin Atkinson wrote: > On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > In fact there's a website devoted to this sort of stuff, > > http://www.bountyquest.com/ It's actually rather disgusting to look > > through this and see some of the patents that have been granted. > > I guess the best example (though a well known one) is US trademark > 75502288, the unhappy smiley, registered to despair.org. > > http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=75502288 :-( But this is not printed material. :-) Should software at large, and FreeBSD in particular, be crippled by polio^H^H^H^Hatents, Europe will happily offer asylum. :-)) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 19 14:21:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C762237B401; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12778; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:21:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018232356.04601a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:26:03 -0600 To: John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemp Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011017120858.046a58a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:13 PM 10/16/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >The only remaining trick is >to not preempt during critical sections which are already marked by our >critical_enter/exit API. That's the hardest part: recognizing, in existing code, what's a critical section. It may be non-obvious what will leave the kernel data structures inconsistent in some subtle way -- especially if it involves data values that should not be present at the same time rather than dangling pointers. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 19 14:53:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BD737B417 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx ([24.2.39.156]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011019215346.HLXN7396.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@laptop.baldwin.cx>; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:53:46 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018232356.04601a40@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:53:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Breaking news: FreeBSD is "considering implementing a preemp Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Oct-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:13 PM 10/16/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > >>The only remaining trick is >>to not preempt during critical sections which are already marked by our >>critical_enter/exit API. > > That's the hardest part: recognizing, in existing code, what's a > critical section. It may be non-obvious what will leave the kernel data > structures inconsistent in some subtle way -- especially if it involves > data values that should not be present at the same time rather than > dangling pointers. Actually this isn't all that hard. You see, we already mark them iwth the critical_enter/exit API I described. The trick I was referring to was the code in critical_exit() to check the PS_OWEPREEMPT flag when critnest gets down to 0. The only places that (so far) have needed an additional explicit critical section in current (it is already implicitly guaranteed in the non-preemption case right now by having interrupts disabled) are the fast interrupt handlers. More specifically, hardclock(), since it can switch to softclock()'s software interrupt thread. However, this is really not all that hard to do. I think I had it running on my laptop at Usenix in about a day, and fixed that missing critical sectoin a couple of days later which was enough for UP x86 and most of UP alpha in only a couple of days work. Since spin mutexes already contain a critical section, most of the critical sections are already protected in -current. Having locks on data (i.e. mutexes, sx locks, etc.) are what prevent the corruption you describe, and that really isn't that difficult. > --Brett -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 19 15:44:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E637437B401 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9JMiEn43494 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:44:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moon_dog@spamcop.net) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.moondog.org: elden set sender to moon_dog@spamcop.net using -f Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:44:14 -0700 From: Elden Fenison To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:29:49PM +0200 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:29:49PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: [snip] > Christianity has become modernised by permitting questioning of the > Bible and rejecting parts of it; if you believe the Bible is the > literal truth, not only will your views be medieval and somewhat > barbaric, but they may to large extents be self-contradictory. This is simply false. Christianity teaches that the Bible is 100% God-inspired truth. This "modernized" Christianity you speak of is not Christianity at all. -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 19 19:52: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFB037B407 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15951; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:51:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:51:45 -0600 To: Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) In-Reply-To: <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:44 PM 10/19/2001, Elden Fenison wrote: >> Christianity has become modernised by permitting questioning of the >> Bible and rejecting parts of it; if you believe the Bible is the >> literal truth, not only will your views be medieval and somewhat >> barbaric, but they may to large extents be self-contradictory. > >This is simply false. Christianity teaches that the Bible is 100% >God-inspired truth. This "modernized" Christianity you speak of is not >Christianity at all. Many religious sects and splinter groups, throughout time, have adopted popular "holy" books but picked and chosen which parts to accept as binding upon them. A good recent example of an unconventional Christian sect is the Worldwide Church of God, whose founder, radio preacher Edwin Armstrong, believed that many injunctions in the Biblical "Old Testament" should be honored. The group celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles, but not Christmas, which they believed -- probably correctly -- to be an adaptation of pagan winter solstice rituals rather than the actual anniversary of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. Other groups -- including mainstream Christians and the Mormons -- believe that the Old Testament is divine but that mankind was given new marching orders, as it were, at a later date. In short, even holy books which are claimed to be the "word of God" are malleable. Islam has much stronger built-in defense mechanisms against such revisionism than most religions, however. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 0:44:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA0E37B403 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9K7iR245122; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:44:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moon_dog@spamcop.net) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.moondog.org: elden set sender to moon_dog@spamcop.net using -f Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:44:27 -0700 From: Elden Fenison To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:51:45PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:51:45PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Other groups -- including mainstream Christians and the Mormons -- > believe that the Old Testament is divine but that mankind was given > new marching orders, as it were, at a later date. Right... the Bible itself... and actually Jesus' own words pretty much tell us that much of the Old Testament law was "superceded" by the New Testament teachings. > In short, even holy books which are claimed to be the "word of God" > are malleable. Islam has much stronger built-in defense mechanisms > against such revisionism than most religions, however. Yes, I've recently heard the same thing elsewhere. It seems to me that it pretty much invalidates a teaching when one is allowed to pick and choose what parts of that teaching suits them and what parts do not. Especially when one of the foundations of that teaching states that the teaching in it's entirety is divinely inspired (as Christianity does). It's human instinct to rationalize away rules we don't wish to follow, but Christianity clearly teaches that God makes the rules, we don't. If we are allowed to toss out a portion of the Bible for whatever reason, we are no longer following God, but our own will, and essentially making our own rules. My apologies to the list, as I know this is not a religious discussion list. But someone did bring this up, so I felt a response was in order. As a side note, I've found this discussion about the events of 9/11 and the various ramifications to be very stimulating. In particular I've really appreciated the contributions from Terry Lambert. So many of the posts were very well put and thought out... and I'm afraid well beyond my league. So I'll shut up now and read some more. Cheers. :) -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 5:21:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B2837B403 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 05:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id f9KCLpj05785; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:21:51 +0200 (MEST) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/6) with ESMTP id f9KCLno05780; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:21:50 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02342; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:21:51 +0200 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f9KCMeu08146; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:22:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:22:37 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: The Anarcat , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/i386/conf GENERIC Message-ID: <20011020142237.A8065@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , "Matthew N. Dodd" , The Anarcat , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20011019230359.A1253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from winter@jurai.net on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:26:39PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Matthew N. Dodd (winter@jurai.net): > > /me looks with sadness at its stack of 486s he intended to develop a > > -current libh on.. :( > You've actually got 486SXs? Man, -I- don't even have those. I can get you one if you like :) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 8:41:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A321F37B401 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax7-234.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.181.234]) by mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9KFe2l06089; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 01:40:03 +1000 Message-ID: <3BD19B9D.C290DEE3@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 01:43:25 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > > Many religious sects and splinter groups, throughout time, have > adopted popular "holy" books but picked and chosen which parts > to accept as binding upon them. A good recent example of an > unconventional Christian sect is the Worldwide Church of God, > whose founder, radio preacher Edwin Armstrong, believed that > many injunctions in the Biblical "Old Testament" should be > honored. The group celebrated the Feast of Tabernacles, but > not Christmas, which they believed -- probably correctly -- > to be an adaptation of pagan winter solstice rituals rather > than the actual anniversary of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. The bible, as we have it today, is a selection made by the early Roman church and later revisions. Many texts didn't make the cut, now known as apocryphal or non-cannonical texts. Even modern catholic and protestant bibles are different. IanP To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 11:45:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A625937B407 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41075BD10 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00331 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:45:12 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9KIhk441979; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Oct 2001 11:43:45 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> Message-ID: Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Elden Fenison writes: > Right... the Bible itself... and actually Jesus' own words pretty much > tell us that much of the Old Testament law was "superceded" by the New > Testament teachings. ... > It seems to me that > it pretty much invalidates a teaching when one is allowed to pick and > choose what parts of that teaching suits them and what parts do not. > Especially when one of the foundations of that teaching states that the > teaching in it's entirety is divinely inspired (as Christianity does). ... > If > we are allowed to toss out a portion of the Bible for whatever reason, > we are no longer following God, but our own will, and essentially making > our own rules. Some people who call themselves Christians believe that the Bible does not contain the words of Jesus, but only a few second-hand memories of old men and many concoctions, very much influenced by their philosophical, theological, and even political biases. It's hard to see how such Christians are left with enough to build a religion around, but but they seem to do well enough by building upon "love" (of God and Man) which everyone agrees is the main message of Jesus (Matt 22:36-40). The rest, who believe that the Bible's words of Jesus are either authentic or divinely inspired and reliable, have have a couple of problems regarding extra-biblical beliefs. The first is too complex to explain well, but it has to do with the authority given to the apostles (and maybe some of their "descendants"). Many believe that the early church was given various extra-biblical teachings with all of authority of God himself. Some think that's still true in some circumstances. The second is Jesus' supposed words: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your rememberance all that I said to you". This is a very large loophole indeed, which many use liberally. So, while I might think that Christians "should" base their beliefs on the Bible, I have to admit that people who don't should be "allowed" to call themselves Christian too. Matt 23:23: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Note the last phrase. Some few claim that is Christian doctrine, coming from the mouth of Christ. Others have latched onto the "justice and mercy" part (at least in words) while they and almost all other Christians have neglected the lighter provisions of the law. The very early Christians (mostly, but not all Jews) didn't, but later ones did, initially under the influence of Paul who claimed direct divine guidance. Each of these things has a counter-argument, of course, but surely Christianity has many definitions, and people shouldn't casually speak as if it has only one. Same for "free software" - that other religion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 12:12:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net (raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8C37B401 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.244.107.50.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.107.50] helo=mindspring.com) by raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15v1Xg-0000is-00; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:12:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:13:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elden Fenison Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Elden Fenison wrote: > This is simply false. Christianity teaches that the Bible is 100% > God-inspired truth. This "modernized" Christianity you speak of is not > Christianity at all. I think perhaps you are confusing Christians and Bibliots. The Bible is not entirely concerned with the life and teachings of Christ, and covers many other subjects, as well, including Moseic law, etc.. You really don't have to be a Bibliot to be a Christian, or vice versa (much of the New Testament conflicts with the Old Testament, with regard to weather or not you should kill the offender, or turn the other cheek). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 15:33:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BEC37B401 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9KMX8a26436; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:33:08 +0200 (CEST) To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:33:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.171.248 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Elden Fenison wrote: >> This is simply false. Christianity teaches that the Bible is 100% >> God-inspired truth. This "modernized" Christianity you speak of is not >> Christianity at all. > I think perhaps you are confusing Christians and Bibliots. The Bible as a whole is considered a collection of inspired books; the development, or changes (esp. from OT to NT) being seen as subsequent moments of God's Word. Otherwise stated, God chose to say different things at different historical times -- or according to different historical times, if you prefer. However, scholars recognize, as it were, an _organic_ design (or divine perspective, if you like) underlying the whole Bible. That's "interpretation". By the way, the _striking universality_ of the NT should set you thinking -- whether you are an atheist or not. It is immaterial that a number of people (eg certain popes) have used the Bible and religion at large to achieve their goals. Inter alia, it is written: _Nolite possidere_...(!) I am not sure whether the same could be said of the Koran. Recently, I have spoken with a few historians of religion, among others. I was explicitly told that the "organic design" contained in the Koran is one of the worst forms of _totalitarianism_. In particular, the "moderate" parts in the Koran are only a means to an end. I have been revising a number of things lately. My history textbooks -- I live in Italy -- simply described the splendid Islamic civilization in the Mediterranean (well, in Spain and especially in Sicily), as well as its far-reaching cultural influence on Western thought. They were deliberately lying: a few ahem "minor" aspects (eg earlier massacres) were "omitted" or hinted at. Moreover, that's just _one part_ of the story: the western part. The _eastern_ part of the story is horrible to say the least. I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" Islam at all. Of course, strong political reasons make all western political leaders speak of ahem "moderate Islam". Alas, you know... veritas parit odium. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 17:43:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4173137B403 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7D2DD6A90F; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:13:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:13:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:33:07AM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 0:33:07 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > I am not sure whether the same could be said of the Koran. > Recently, I have spoken with a few historians of religion, among > others. I was explicitly told that the "organic design" contained > in the Koran is one of the worst forms of _totalitarianism_. In > particular, the "moderate" parts in the Koran are only a means to an > end. I've tried to read the Quran, and I've found it very hard going. The Bible is a model of clarity by comparison. The Quran brings home very forcibly that its scribe was not a learned man. I don't think you can interpret much more into its form. > I have been revising a number of things lately. My history > textbooks -- I live in Italy -- simply described the splendid > Islamic civilization in the Mediterranean (well, in Spain and > especially in Sicily), as well as its far-reaching cultural > influence on Western thought. All valid points. > They were deliberately lying: No, like most historians they were looking at the parts which interested them. > a few ahem "minor" aspects (eg earlier massacres) were "omitted" or > hinted at. Moreover, that's just _one part_ of the story: the > western part. The _eastern_ part of the story is horrible to say > the least. You mean the Eastern story of the atrocities committed by Christians? Those were violent times. I don't think the Muslims were worse than the Christians. > I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" > Islam at all. Could you explain that? There may be fewer Muslims who just pay lip service to their religion than there are Christians, but I wouldn't even be sure about that. I grew up in Malaysia, a country with Islam as its state religion. While I don't approve at all of enforced religion (if you're Malay, you *must* be Muslim), until this Mulslim fundamentalism thing sprung up, I found Islam a very gentle religion. For most people, it still is. > Of course, strong political reasons make all western political > leaders speak of ahem "moderate Islam". As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name of their religion. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 17:47:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9D037B401 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9L0l7o00988; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moon_dog@spamcop.net) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.moondog.org: elden set sender to moon_dog@spamcop.net using -f Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:47:07 -0700 From: Elden Fenison To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011020174707.E732@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 11:43:45AM -0700 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 11:43:45AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Each of these things has a counter-argument, of course, but surely > Christianity has many definitions, and people shouldn't casually speak > as if it has only one. Same for "free software" - that other > religion. Point taken. I guess I could be labeled a "fundementalist". (which I have no problem with) I've always believed that the Bible is the foundation and authoritative definition of the Christian faith and any thinking or teaching "called" Christian should be measured against it. -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 20:23:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE72337B403 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26490; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:23:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020212118.048eb010@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:23:28 -0600 To: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) In-Reply-To: <3BD19B9D.C290DEE3@optusnet.com.au> References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:43 AM 10/20/2001, Ian Pulsford wrote: >The bible, as we have it today, is a selection made by the early Roman >church and later revisions. Many texts didn't make the cut, now known >as apocryphal or non-cannonical texts. Even modern catholic and >protestant bibles are different. Almost, but not quite. The portion called the "Old Testament" -- known to Jews as the "Tanach" (Torah, Prophets, and Writings) -- was canonized by the Pharisees. The "New Testament" was canonized by the early Catholic church. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 20:30:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235A137B406 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26561; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:30:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020212438.048ec760@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:30:10 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) In-Reply-To: References: <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:43 PM 10/20/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >The rest, who believe that the Bible's words of Jesus are either >authentic or divinely inspired and reliable, have have a couple of >problems regarding extra-biblical beliefs. Interestingly, many Christians have "extra-biblical" beliefs that they DO NOT KNOW are extra-biblical, even though they clearly sprung from the fertile imaginations of much later authors. For example, many treat elements from the fanciful accounts of Dante and Milton as "gospel" -- to the extent that, when asked, they will claim that fanciful assertions from these almost modern writers' works are part of the Bible and hence the "word of God." >Each of these things has a counter-argument, of course, but surely >Christianity has many definitions, and people shouldn't casually speak >as if it has only one. Same for "free software" - that other religion. Agreed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 20:38:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F280F37B401 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26619; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:38:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:38:14 -0600 To: Salvo Bartolotta , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Cc: Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:33 PM 10/20/2001, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: >I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" Islam at >all. You are correct. In fact, according to Islamic law and doctrine, the creation or even the advocacy of a "moderate" Islam is itself punishable by immoderate measures (i.e. death). > Of course, strong political reasons make all western political leaders >speak of ahem "moderate Islam". What they're speaking of, of course, is tolerance and separation of church and state. Which the religion forbids but which many -- especially Turkish Muslims -- practice anyway. According to the doctrine of the religion, these people are apostates, because Islam forbids tolerance of infidels. (Again, see http://www.secularislam.org/) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 20 20:40:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBED137B403; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26640; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:40:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:40:08 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Salvo Bartolotta From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Cc: Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:43 PM 10/20/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of >all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name of their >religion. Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name of their religion? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message