From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 8:27:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc-62-31-80-192-ll.blueyonder.co.uk (pc-62-31-80-192-ll.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.80.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38C5A37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 202 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2002 16:01:01 -0000 Received: from spatula.home (HELO cream.org) (192.168.0.4) by myriad.home with SMTP; 24 Mar 2002 16:01:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:02:05 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020311 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Courtney Thomas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved from -questions] Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > Barring that, network daemons that run out of inetd can use tcp wrappers (the >/etc/hosts.allow system). This has a flexible system for configuring access to >various daemons from the network, however has the unfortunate achilles heel of being >entirely dependant on inetd to pick up traffic for it and spawn a new instance of >the daemon to run it. I've heard reports of tcpserver of qmail fame doing the same >thing, and even with some speed gains, but I'm not a big fan of the author or his works. >hosts_options(5) for more information. > Benjamin, I was interested about what you said about qmail and its author. I've recently started playing with qmail to investigate what mail server I prefer, but I agree that there is perhaps something a little strange about its author. I don't know what, perhaps its just that I find qmail.org such a weird site. What's your take on the situation? Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 9:26:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5971937B419 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15876 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:03 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105957.019a9340@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:02:30 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Advocacy help for CS professor In-Reply-To: <001101c1d1c7$67cf4ae0$a700a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322111245.GA26042@hades.hell.gr> <3C9B571F.1090101@pittgoth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:31 AM 3/22/2002, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >But to be honest, Microsoft DOES >put out awesome software sometimes. The Age of Empires series of games was >flawless and made a mockery of the pathing engine in most other overhead >strat games. To be fair, Microsoft was only the publisher of this game. The real credit for the craftsman ship goes to Ensemble Studios who, other than being contractually beholden to Microsoft for delivery of their games, developed the code independently. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 9:26:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6F737B417 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15873 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:03 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:58:41 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:16 PM 3/22/2002, David Johnson wrote: >Mozilla or Konqueror versus IExplorer. If all you judge by is the number of >sites that says "best viewed with IExplorer", or the number of proprietary >plugins, then the latter will win. But that only demonstrates the >ubiquitousness of IExplorer, not its quality. But if you judge based on >usability, adherence to standards, etc., then the former two are at least as >good, if not better, than the Microsoft offering. I disagree with this one. I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on FreeBSD. It would probably cut down significantly on my Windows use. My experience is that IE renders pages faster than any other browser I've used recently (except Lynx) and I never find myself wondering if a page will display correctly. It handles with ease all the "standards-compliant" pages that I've seen. Mozilla, on the other hand, seems to gobble up as much RAM as you have before it goes for your swap space. Konqueror is sweet, but it still doesn't display *all* the pages I visit the way they were meant to be seen. Of course, I realize that a person's assessment of a web browser is only as good as the pages he tends to visit, so opinions are sure to vary here. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 9:26:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A3237B41B for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15879 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:04 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:25:01 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: time servers nearish Vancouver In-Reply-To: <20020323041656.A02023F29@bast.unixathome.org> References: <20020322200120.D17681@rain.macguire.net> <20020323033242.31E383F29@bast.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:17 PM 3/22/2002, Dan Langille wrote: >I'm using: > >$ more /etc/ntp.conf >server ntp.cpsc.ucalgary.ca >server time.chu.nrc.ca >server time.nrc.ca >server timelord.uregina.ca Why does this stuff not work for me? I tried running ntpd on a system I have with a terrible clock, and I still found that the time was off by up to six minutes in some instances. I was thinking I'd get better results by running ntpdate as a cron job. What's the secret? I've been scouring man pages and docs for days now to no avail. And how often does this ntp.conf actually update the time? << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 9:27: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9DAE037B404 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0135063507 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C9E0BA9.A8718B84@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:23:54 -0800 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: got rid of Mandrake on my laptop Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think I posted a while ago that I had installed Mandrake 8.2 on my laptop to play around with new apps without destroying my beautiful minimalist FreeBSD partition. Well, I dumped it. Almost all of the graphic setup utilities would hang on my Vaio, and I got an arrogant attitude on the mailing lists. "We tested this on at least 2 computers before releasing it". So I forked out the $80 and bought SuSE professional. It is slick and professional. The only hitch was finding the magic kernel param "NOPCMCIA=yes" that allows it to boot on late model Vaio's. The command was in one of the 5 small books you get with the package. I use Windowmaker in FBSD, but I'm kind of having fun playing with Gnome and KDE. For some reason only known to a few, Themes never look on the desktop the way they do on those theme sites :) Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 9:43:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601F937B404 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2OHhPK22230; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:43:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (andersonpc [192.168.42.18]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12481; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:43:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:49:43 -0600 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > I disagree with this one. I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on > FreeBSD. It would probably cut down significantly on my Windows use. > > My experience is that IE renders pages faster than any other browser I've > used recently (except Lynx) and I never find myself wondering if a page > will display correctly. It handles with ease all the "standards-compliant" > pages that I've seen. Mozilla, on the other hand, seems to gobble up as > much RAM as you have before it goes for your swap space. Konqueror is > sweet, but it still doesn't display *all* the pages I visit the way they > were meant to be seen. > I think the problem is that when MS created IE, they intentionally made it NOT follow all the standards, and then made software that created web pages that also didn't follow the standards (but broke the rules the MS way). Netscape didn't follow those broken rules, and since a huge population of web designers are Windows addicts, they used Windows tools, which used the easily implementable IE libraries and made broken html, Netscape appeared to be the one that was "broken". There are numerous sites that work fine in IE but do not work in Netscape or Opera, or any other browser I could find. Rendering pages faster? Sure, probably because they render / correct as the page downloads, and Netscape doesn't, but I agree with you here. Netscape, IE, Mozilla, all suck. If there was a browser out there that did everything IE/Netscape do (including the GUI email client), I'd pay for it hands down. Opera is close, but no cigar. Eric > > Of course, I realize that a person's assessment of a web browser is only as > good as the pages he tends to visit, so opinions are sure to vary here. > > << Chip Morton >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 9:51: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prometheus.vh.laserfence.net (prometheus.laserfence.net [196.44.73.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562D737B417 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.vh.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10]) by prometheus.vh.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16pC8L-0000BN-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:50:21 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:50:20 +0200 (SAST) From: Willie Viljoen X-X-Sender: will@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net To: Eric Anderson Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20020324194719.K307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have you tried Konqueror? It comes with 2.0 and up version of the KDE desktop. Although I'm not one for GUIs, I must say it impresses me. One feature I particularly like is the ability to change the user agent string it sends, per webpage. My internet banking facility uses a web page which blatantly refuses users access until the user agent string contains the magic IE version reply, mostly because they know they use broken HTML. With the right setting applied, it works fine in Konqueror though... Konqueror even has fully working java and javascript support (although for java you have to download the enormous file from Sun). It is also binary compatible with Netscape plugins from Windows and Linux. The Kmail client is more or less as user friendly as MS's abomination.. althogh I still prefer my pine and my lynx, I might just be a stuck up old console relic. Will On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Chip Morton wrote: > > > I disagree with this one. I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on > > FreeBSD. It would probably cut down significantly on my Windows use. > > > > My experience is that IE renders pages faster than any other browser I've > > used recently (except Lynx) and I never find myself wondering if a page > > will display correctly. It handles with ease all the "standards-compliant" > > pages that I've seen. Mozilla, on the other hand, seems to gobble up as > > much RAM as you have before it goes for your swap space. Konqueror is > > sweet, but it still doesn't display *all* the pages I visit the way they > > were meant to be seen. > > > > I think the problem is that when MS created IE, they intentionally made it > NOT follow all the standards, and then made software that created web pages that > also didn't follow the standards (but broke the rules the MS way). Netscape > didn't follow those broken rules, and since a huge population of web designers > are Windows addicts, they used Windows tools, which used the easily > implementable IE libraries and made broken html, Netscape appeared to be the one > that was "broken". There are numerous sites that work fine in IE but do not > work in Netscape or Opera, or any other browser I could find. Rendering pages > faster? Sure, probably because they render / correct as the page downloads, and > Netscape doesn't, but I agree with you here. Netscape, IE, Mozilla, all suck. > If there was a browser out there that did everything IE/Netscape do (including > the GUI email client), I'd pay for it hands down. Opera is close, but no cigar. > > Eric > > > > > > > Of course, I realize that a person's assessment of a web browser is only as > > good as the pages he tends to visit, so opinions are sure to vary here. > > > > << Chip Morton >> > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > -- Willie Viljoen Private IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36 +27 82 404 03 27 will@laserfence.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 10:22: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A64D37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33710 invoked by uid 100); 24 Mar 2002 18:21:54 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15518.6465.710922.324623@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:21:53 -0600 To: Eric Anderson Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com>, Eric Anderson typed: > Chip Morton wrote: > > I disagree with this one. I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on > > FreeBSD. It would probably cut down significantly on my Windows use. > > My experience is that IE renders pages faster than any other browser I've > > used recently (except Lynx) and I never find myself wondering if a page > > will display correctly. Just FYI, I've seen a graphical browser that was faster than Lynx on the same platform. It was also very standards-compliant, at least for the standards of the time. It even had a switch to make it swallow non-standard code that MSIE and NS swallowed. I'd pay money for it on FreeBSD. I'd do the port and give it back to the author, but he never answered my letter asking him about it. > I think the problem is that when MS created IE, they intentionally made it > NOT follow all the standards, and then made software that created web pages that > also didn't follow the standards (but broke the rules the MS way). That's SOP for Microsoft. > Netscape didn't follow those broken rules, and since a huge > population of web designers are Windows addicts, they used Windows > tools, which used the easily implementable IE libraries and made > broken html, Netscape appeared to be the one that was "broken". No, Netscape followed their own broken rules, and acted like Microsoft in nearly every way when they had the most popular browser. They didn't even bother send people to the IETF HTML meetings - at least not until after they had already written code that did what the IETF's proposed standards did, but not as well. That's why HTML 3.2 is so much worse than HTML 3.0. Anyone who actually knew anything about the desktop market would have predicted the result of Netscape trying to out-Microsoft Microsoft. It's like the neighborhood bully tangling with the 800-lb gorilla. You get a very broken bully. > If there was a browser out there that did everything IE/Netscape do (including > the GUI email client), I'd pay for it hands down. Opera is close, but no cigar. Since I value security, I turn off all the things that can spread viruses. I also disable a number of other things to save my failing eyesight. I keep a box with Windows installed just to boot and run IE when I come to a site that can't operate in that environment. There's nothing else in the Windows partition that I care about. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 11: 7:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956D737B41B for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03127 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:13:14 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125154.0197b368@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:56:48 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <20020324194719.K307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> References: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:50 AM 3/24/2002, Willie Viljoen wrote: >Have you tried Konqueror? >[ snip ] I recently got turned on to Konqueror, and it's kinda slick. It's definitely my browser of choice on FreeBSD. But I do find that there a few pages with "display anomalies" that will send me back to using Internet Explorer. Not many though. And I haven't even taken the time to install the Java interpreter yet. >The Kmail client is more or less as user friendly as MS's abomination.. >[ more snipping ] Where the hell do you get KMail? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Now that I'm actually *using* FreeBSD again, I figured I would try to read my freebsd.org e-mail using its tools instead. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 11: 7:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A5437B41C for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03137 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:13:18 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:06:36 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <15518.6465.710922.324623@guru.mired.org> References: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:21 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: >Anyone who actually knew anything about the desktop market would have >predicted the result of Netscape trying to out-Microsoft Microsoft. >It's like the neighborhood bully tangling with the 800-lb gorilla. You >get a very broken bully. And as much as I recognize the problem, at the end of the day I don't really care about standards as much as being able to see my choice web sites quickly and correctly. I think most web site designers are the same way, figuring that most of their audience will be using Internet Explorer, and the small minority who aren't will be able to find their way to an IE without too much effort. (It is free, right?) As much as possible, I try not to set my non-Windows browsers to report as IE. Site administrators may never notice, but I want to "stand up and be counted" as a FreeBSD user. Somebody might actually start paying attention one day. >I also disable a number of other things to save my failing >eyesight. I keep a box with Windows installed just to boot and run IE >when I come to a site that can't operate in that environment. There's >nothing else in the Windows partition that I care about. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who did/does this. I had a Windows 98 system for a while whose only purposes was running IE6 and displaying web pages. :-) << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 11:42: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3C137B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2OJg3K24565; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:42:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (andersonpc [192.168.42.18]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14651; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:42:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:48:22 -0600 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] References: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125154.0197b368@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do you have to use KDE to use Konqueror? I hate KDE, but I'll try any web browser. Eric Chip Morton wrote: > At 11:50 AM 3/24/2002, Willie Viljoen wrote: > >Have you tried Konqueror? > >[ snip ] > > I recently got turned on to Konqueror, and it's kinda slick. It's > definitely my browser of choice on FreeBSD. But I do find that there a few > pages with "display anomalies" that will send me back to using Internet > Explorer. Not many though. And I haven't even taken the time to install > the Java interpreter yet. > > >The Kmail client is more or less as user friendly as MS's abomination.. > >[ more snipping ] > > Where the hell do you get KMail? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Now > that I'm actually *using* FreeBSD again, I figured I would try to read my > freebsd.org e-mail using its tools instead. > > << Chip Morton >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 11:44:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prometheus.vh.laserfence.net (prometheus.laserfence.net [196.44.73.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F2037B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.vh.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10]) by prometheus.vh.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16pDub-0000EL-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:44:17 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:44:16 +0200 (SAST) From: Willie Viljoen X-X-Sender: will@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net To: Eric Anderson Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20020324214342.Y307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In some linuxes, it comes with KDE... but on freebsd, you'll probably have to get out out of the ports tree. cd /usr/ports make search key=kmail See if it's there... I'm too lazy right now :) Will On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Do you have to use KDE to use Konqueror? I hate KDE, but I'll try any web > browser. > > Eric > > > Chip Morton wrote: > > > At 11:50 AM 3/24/2002, Willie Viljoen wrote: > > >Have you tried Konqueror? > > >[ snip ] > > > > I recently got turned on to Konqueror, and it's kinda slick. It's > > definitely my browser of choice on FreeBSD. But I do find that there a few > > pages with "display anomalies" that will send me back to using Internet > > Explorer. Not many though. And I haven't even taken the time to install > > the Java interpreter yet. > > > > >The Kmail client is more or less as user friendly as MS's abomination.. > > >[ more snipping ] > > > > Where the hell do you get KMail? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Now > > that I'm actually *using* FreeBSD again, I figured I would try to read my > > freebsd.org e-mail using its tools instead. > > > > << Chip Morton >> > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > -- Willie Viljoen Private IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36 +27 82 404 03 27 will@laserfence.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 12: 1:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prometheus.vh.laserfence.net (prometheus.laserfence.net [196.44.73.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7583637B41B for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.vh.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10]) by prometheus.vh.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16pEAw-0000Ei-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:01:10 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:01:08 +0200 (SAST) From: Willie Viljoen X-X-Sender: will@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net To: Eric Anderson Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20020324220007.X307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unfortuantely I think yes... but you could try running it in another desktop with KDE installed... in some cases doing that will just start the minimal requirements to run it in the other desktop... not sure if KDE does that though... I know KDE can load GNOME specific stuff as long as GNOME and GTK+ are installed on the system. Will On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Do you have to use KDE to use Konqueror? I hate KDE, but I'll try any web > browser. > > Eric > > > Chip Morton wrote: > > > At 11:50 AM 3/24/2002, Willie Viljoen wrote: > > >Have you tried Konqueror? > > >[ snip ] > > > > I recently got turned on to Konqueror, and it's kinda slick. It's > > definitely my browser of choice on FreeBSD. But I do find that there a few > > pages with "display anomalies" that will send me back to using Internet > > Explorer. Not many though. And I haven't even taken the time to install > > the Java interpreter yet. > > > > >The Kmail client is more or less as user friendly as MS's abomination.. > > >[ more snipping ] > > > > Where the hell do you get KMail? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Now > > that I'm actually *using* FreeBSD again, I figured I would try to read my > > freebsd.org e-mail using its tools instead. > > > > << Chip Morton >> > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > -- Willie Viljoen Private IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36 +27 82 404 03 27 will@laserfence.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 12:29:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E464737B41A for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 89230 invoked by uid 100); 24 Mar 2002 20:29:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15518.14098.914375.572020@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:29:06 -0600 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> References: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > At 12:21 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Anyone who actually knew anything about the desktop market would have > >predicted the result of Netscape trying to out-Microsoft Microsoft. > >It's like the neighborhood bully tangling with the 800-lb gorilla. You > >get a very broken bully. > And as much as I recognize the problem, at the end of the day I don't > really care about standards as much as being able to see my choice web > sites quickly and correctly. I think most web site designers are the same > way No, most web site designers aren't that bright. All they care about is proper display in MSIE in the out of the box configuration. At least, that's the impression one gets from most web sites. It makes me ashamed to ever have had anything to do with building web sites. Any web site that fails to work properly in one or more of the browsers designed for the visually impaired is in violation of the ADA. If you're running a web site run with government funding for any part of it, you're required to comply by a number of different regulations. If you're a commercial web site in the US, whether you are legally required to comply with it depends on whether or not your district court thinks a web site is a public place of business. Given the current trends in the legal system in the US and abroad, it will actually depend on whether or not any of your users are in a district that cares, even if your web site isn't in US. > figuring that most of their audience will be using Internet Explorer, > and the small minority who aren't will be able to find their way to an IE > without too much effort. (It is free, right?) How can I use IE if I don't run Windows or a RISC workstation? Better yet, how do I put a system running MSIE in my pocket and carry it around? A properly designed web site will work fine on browsers I can fit in my pocket. That's why I run w3m with autoloading of frames turned off - I want to know which web sites are going to work on my Palm, and which aren't, and seldom bookmark the latter. > As much as possible, I try not to set my non-Windows browsers to report as > IE. Site administrators may never notice, but I want to "stand up and be > counted" as a FreeBSD user. Somebody might actually start paying attention > one day. Yup. I even the system name to FreeBSD in the Linux ABI, so that Netscape reports me as a FreeBSD user. > >I also disable a number of other things to save my failing > >eyesight. I keep a box with Windows installed just to boot and run IE > >when I come to a site that can't operate in that environment. There's > >nothing else in the Windows partition that I care about. > I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who did/does this. I had a > Windows 98 system for a while whose only purposes was running IE6 and > displaying web pages. :-) That system also runs -stable in test mode before I install it on production machines, boots -current, and has a Linux install on it. Again, there's nothing on them I care about. Those are the many faces of eve :-). http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 12:34:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prometheus.vh.laserfence.net (prometheus.laserfence.net [196.44.73.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E3E37B41A for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.vh.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10]) by prometheus.vh.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16pEgV-0000Fd-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:33:47 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:33:45 +0200 (SAST) From: Willie Viljoen X-X-Sender: will@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net To: Mike Meyer Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <15518.14098.914375.572020@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <20020324223244.C307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wish web designers would just take the time to familiarise themselves with HTML standards. Things like anybrowser.org are very easy to understand and follow, even for the kind of web designer who has no technical expertise whatsoever, and just looks at the WYSIWYG display on his screen and decides if it's visually perfect or not... On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > In <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > > At 12:21 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >Anyone who actually knew anything about the desktop market would have > > >predicted the result of Netscape trying to out-Microsoft Microsoft. > > >It's like the neighborhood bully tangling with the 800-lb gorilla. You > > >get a very broken bully. > > And as much as I recognize the problem, at the end of the day I don't > > really care about standards as much as being able to see my choice web > > sites quickly and correctly. I think most web site designers are the same > > way > > No, most web site designers aren't that bright. All they care about is > proper display in MSIE in the out of the box configuration. At least, > that's the impression one gets from most web sites. It makes me > ashamed to ever have had anything to do with building web sites. > > Any web site that fails to work properly in one or more of the > browsers designed for the visually impaired is in violation of the > ADA. If you're running a web site run with government funding for any > part of it, you're required to comply by a number of different > regulations. If you're a commercial web site in the US, whether you > are legally required to comply with it depends on whether or not your > district court thinks a web site is a public place of business. > > Given the current trends in the legal system in the US and abroad, it > will actually depend on whether or not any of your users are in a > district that cares, even if your web site isn't in US. > > > figuring that most of their audience will be using Internet Explorer, > > and the small minority who aren't will be able to find their way to an IE > > without too much effort. (It is free, right?) > > How can I use IE if I don't run Windows or a RISC workstation? > > Better yet, how do I put a system running MSIE in my pocket and carry > it around? A properly designed web site will work fine on browsers I > can fit in my pocket. That's why I run w3m with autoloading of frames > turned off - I want to know which web sites are going to work on my > Palm, and which aren't, and seldom bookmark the latter. > > > As much as possible, I try not to set my non-Windows browsers to report as > > IE. Site administrators may never notice, but I want to "stand up and be > > counted" as a FreeBSD user. Somebody might actually start paying attention > > one day. > > Yup. I even the system name to FreeBSD in the Linux ABI, so that > Netscape reports me as a FreeBSD user. > > > >I also disable a number of other things to save my failing > > >eyesight. I keep a box with Windows installed just to boot and run IE > > >when I come to a site that can't operate in that environment. There's > > >nothing else in the Windows partition that I care about. > > I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who did/does this. I had a > > Windows 98 system for a while whose only purposes was running IE6 and > > displaying web pages. :-) > > That system also runs -stable in test mode before I install it on > production machines, boots -current, and has a Linux install on > it. Again, there's nothing on them I care about. Those are the many > faces of eve :-). > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > -- Willie Viljoen Private IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36 +27 82 404 03 27 will@laserfence.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 13:26: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66CFE37B43B for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21608; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:25:40 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324142509.00cdfd20@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:25:37 -0700 To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> References: <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:58 AM 3/24/2002, Chip Morton wrote: >I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on FreeBSD. You don't have to. Run the Slowlaris version. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 16:35:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4AD37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02126 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:41:32 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324181553.01baa6b0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:21:22 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324142509.00cdfd20@nospam.lariat.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:25 PM 3/24/2002, Brett Glass wrote: >At 09:58 AM 3/24/2002, Chip Morton wrote: > >I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on FreeBSD. >You don't have to. Run the Slowlaris version. Hmm, never knew that would work. Does anybody have any actual experience doing that? If so, how well does it work? And what's the latest version of IE on Solaris? version 5 Service Pack 1? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 16:35:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C1637B404 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02133 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:41:33 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:34:06 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <15518.14098.914375.572020@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:29 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > figuring that most of their audience will be using Internet Explorer, > > and the small minority who aren't will be able to find their way to an IE > > without too much effort. (It is free, right?) > >How can I use IE if I don't run Windows or a RISC workstation? You may be right, web designers may not think outside of IE-compatibility. I think they may have when Navigator was still a factor in the browser wars, but maybe not anymore. And I would imagine that even if you don't personally own/use a Windows-capable PC, you probably could get to one rather easily. I would imagine that most people on this list could, but I'm sure there are exceptions. >Better yet, how do I put a system running MSIE in my pocket and carry >it around? A properly designed web site will work fine on browsers I >can fit in my pocket. That's why I run w3m with autoloading of frames >turned off - I want to know which web sites are going to work on my >Palm, and which aren't, and seldom bookmark the latter. Well, first of all you could do what I did--get a PocketPC and taa-daa, you've got Internet Explorer in your pocket. :-) But seriously, the best examples that I've seen of "pocket" compatibility are with web sites that alter an alternative version, usually a mobile.somewebpage.com that does away with lots of the frills that weigh down so many sites. That even seems to be the route to browser compatibility for most sites I visit--detect the user's browser and route him accordingly to the correct page. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 16:35:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A6237B417 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02138 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:41:34 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182948.01ba7c60@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:34:54 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> References: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125154.0197b368@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:48 PM 3/24/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: >Do you have to use KDE to use Konqueror? I hate KDE, but I'll try any web >browser. My Linux system has both Gnome and KDE installed, and Konqueror loads easily into the Gnome desktop. I assume you have to install certain KDE base components to get this to work, but if you can spare the space, I heartily recommend Konqueror as a browser. Check out http://www.konqueror.org/faq.html#nokde. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 16:36: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958D637B419 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02141 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:41:36 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324183222.01babee0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:33:13 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <20020324214342.Y307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> References: <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh, no! Not a port! Hasn't somebody built a ready-to-use package somewhere? :-( At 01:44 PM 3/24/2002, Willie Viljoen wrote: >In some linuxes, it comes with KDE... but on freebsd, you'll probably have >to get out out of the ports tree. > >cd /usr/ports >make search key=kmail > >See if it's there... I'm too lazy right now :) > >Will To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 17: 0:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA7037B417 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0265.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.10] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pIqZ-0002OS-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:00:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9E7697.2D3EEC78@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:00:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] References: <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324142509.00cdfd20@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:58 AM 3/24/2002, Chip Morton wrote: > >I would pay cash to have Internet Explorer on FreeBSD. > > You don't have to. Run the Slowlaris version. It doesn't run. I tried to make it run for a while, but it would have required more peeking up Solaris' skirts than I was willing to get into at the time. You also can't get the x86 version any more; there was only a tiny window. Now the only version is SPARC, and it's old (unless they've done another port in the last year). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 18:14: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA17237B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2P2DKr02944; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:13:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:12:46 +0100 To: Andrew Boothman , Benjamin Krueger From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Courtney Thomas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:02 PM +0000 2002/03/24, Andrew Boothman wrote: > I was interested about what you said about qmail and its author. > I've recently started playing with qmail to investigate what mail > server I prefer, but I agree that there is perhaps something a > little strange about its author. I don't know what, perhaps its > just that I find qmail.org such a weird site. The author of qmail is rightly considered to be one of the most whacked-out kooks on the 'net. I've been on IETF mailing lists with him, and his attitude is always that he is always right (by definition) and everyone else is always wrong (by definition). He insists on replying to each and every mail message posted to the list, and constantly dredging up old points that everyone else has agreed were dead a long, long, long time ago. He will reply to messages that are not anywhere near remotely related to his favourite topic, quote some random line that is least unlike the straw-man position that he wants to destroy, and then go off on a multi-page rant. He considers himself to be God's gift to programming, security, Internet mail, DNS, cryptography, and anything else he cares to decide to screw around with, and woe betide anyone who ever disagrees with his world-view -- even if that world-view changes and you used to be his most vocal supporter. The problem is that he is generally totally fscking clueless (at least on all the topics with which I am familiar), and his whacked-out ideas of how things should be done are non-solutions to non-problems, and he simply doesn't understand what the real problems are. Let's take qmail as one example. Read the literature, and you will find pretty universal agreement that the single biggest problem with handling Internet e-mail is the issue of synchronous meta-data updates, followed by synchronous data writes -- basically, you're waiting on the disk, which is the single slowest device in the entire system by many, many orders of magnitude, and the RFCs require you to do things that mean that you can't really make much use of the kinds of buffers and things you'd normally use to help insulate yourself from such seriously heinous latency issues. The problem is that every time you create a file, delete a file, or rename a file, the entire directory in which that file is located must be locked for the exclusive use of that one process, for the length of that directory operation. Now, you may be able to handle these operations very quickly, but when you serialize all directory operations in a busy mail queue, this starts to become a serious problem. Compound this problem with the fact that you are required by the RFCs to have committed the mail message to stable storage before you respond to the sender "Okay, I've got it." You have to flush the buffer for that file, and wait for the writes to complete before you can proceed. You also have to flush the write buffer for the directory before you can proceed (to ensure that the meta-data updates are reliably written out). Now, it turns out that older versions of sendmail make this problem doubly worse by using two files in /var/spool/mqueue for every mail message -- a qf* file and a df* file (with others being optional). This means twice as many files get created, written, read, and deleted in a very short period of time (with appropriate flushes of the buffers and waiting for the message to be committed to stable storage before continuing, etc...). But qmail makes this even worse -- it uses *three* files per message! At least postfix is more intelligent and it uses only one file (albeit in a proprietary format). Starting with version 8.12, sendmail has a new async I/O library that allows it to avoid *ALL* synchronous meta-data updates in most cases (i.e., those where the initial delivery attempt is successful). It's kind of hard to beat zero synchronous meta-data updates. ;-) More importantly, the author of postfix has relatively little ego wrapped up in his programs, and if you can show him an error or an incorrect assumption, he will generally listen to you. Do you know why no one has never collected the "bug bounty" that the author of qmail has offered? Simple -- he has never publicly acknowledged that any of his programs are less than 100% completely and totally perfect, and any time someone does point out something that is wrong, while he doesn't recognize it as a "bug", the problem does seem to mysteriously get fixed in later releases. There's a lot more development going on with regards to sendmail, and it may be more difficult to get them to listen to you. But I do know that Eric, Greg, Claus, and crew do listen, because they are in the process of eliminating every single major potential software bottleneck that I identified in my "Sendmail Performance Tuning for Large Systems" paper that I presented at SANE'98 (see ). I've got a whole laundry list (some twenty-three items by now) of things that are wrong with tinydns and dnscache, and a lot of them have to do with problems regarding the megalomaniacal author and his unholy disciples. I will be writing them up, but I can't make any guarantees as to when I'll be able to put them online. Even if I document my writings extensively with references to his own web pages, documentation, etc... and the public writings of others, I'm sure that he'll still file libel and slander charges against me -- he does the same to anyone else who dares to speak out against him, especially those who do so in a public forum. God help you if you ever join the Church of Dan. And Dan help you if you don't. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 18:16:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep4.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C3B37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.upton.net (d141-18-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.18.230]) by fep4.cogeco.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A6764F73 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:16:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:16:01 -0500 From: Paul Murphy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] Message-Id: <20020324211601.32611f77.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> In-Reply-To: <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> References: <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125154.0197b368@threespace.com> <3C9E2D86.E79BCF5@centtech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=..I7uS_fVBkNI+q" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=..I7uS_fVBkNI+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:48:22 -0600 Eric Anderson wrote: > Do you have to use KDE to use Konqueror? I hate KDE, but I'll try any web > browser. > > Eric http://www.konqueror.org/faq.html#nokde -- Cogeco ergo sum --=..I7uS_fVBkNI+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8nohoumQc9BC5jBMRAuh/AJ0cMznco0PKXBVjz6n67M7GBzxiqwCcCWiw ZU5n5Mkoa2iJbHzzWG+iIGA= =t2Te -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=..I7uS_fVBkNI+q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 18:23:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A7637B422 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.upton.net (d141-18-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.18.230]) by fep1.cogeco.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A7E193C8B; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:23:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:23:09 -0500 From: Paul Murphy To: Chip Morton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time servers nearish Vancouver Message-Id: <20020324212309.1833ffa7.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> References: <20020322200120.D17681@rain.macguire.net> <20020323033242.31E383F29@bast.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary=",F40XHtR.WBd=.89" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --,F40XHtR.WBd=.89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:25:01 -0600 Chip Morton wrote: > At 10:17 PM 3/22/2002, Dan Langille wrote: > >I'm using: > > > >$ more /etc/ntp.conf > >server ntp.cpsc.ucalgary.ca > >server time.chu.nrc.ca > >server time.nrc.ca > >server timelord.uregina.ca > > Why does this stuff not work for me? I tried running ntpd on a system I > have with a terrible clock, and I still found that the time was off by up > to six minutes in some instances. I was thinking I'd get better results by > running ntpdate as a cron job. > > What's the secret? I've been scouring man pages and docs for days now to > no avail. And how often does this ntp.conf actually update the time? > > << Chip Morton >> > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > If time is out of sync by more than a certain amount (1000s) ntpd refuses to sync. Perhaps this was your problem. -- Cogeco ergo sum --,F40XHtR.WBd=.89 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8noocumQc9BC5jBMRAnlFAJ9LkZPXLxZYdpVwWKMHI9NEsqfC7gCgv3Ri 6e55CNpdQ1u39bxd6zQqEy4= =WrTf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --,F40XHtR.WBd=.89-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 19:10:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6194237B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b163.otenet.gr [212.205.244.171]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2P3AdIg013799 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 05:10:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2P3Abjv024905 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 05:10:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2P3AaOp024886 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 05:10:36 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 05:10:36 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Please guys (was: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor]) Message-ID: <20020325031035.GA23032@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don't people change the subject of the threads anymore? This has stopped to be relevant to the original advocacy stuff long ago :( Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 19:15:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net [24.234.0.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41C737B405 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin (cm003.28.234.24.lvcm.com [24.234.28.3]) by 100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with SMTP id ABM52979; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:15:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> From: "Taylor Dondich" To: References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net><3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net><20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net><3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:16:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got to say this was one of the most entertaining peices of e-mail I've read all day; furthermore, it was the most informative of them all. I just started using qmail as my mail delivery system of choice because sendmail was EXTREMELY difficult to configure in the ways that I wanted. I'm beginning to start up a webhosting service with virtual domain hosting with full e-mail services and qmail was frankly the only package out there with the commitment and features that seemed close to my liking. I was also looking at the other tools out there that I could slap on top of qmail to make it more functional (vpopmail, sqwebmail, etc). However, I do see your point of it's multitute of file processing tasks to handle just 1 peice of e-mail by it going in or out, I was at first in the impression of it being because of further redundancy in the system. I don't see this being a problem if you were processing a low amount of e-mail per day, however I could see the implications of this if your users went hogwild and started going crazy (disk activity would skyrocket). These are my thoughts, however I could be wrong. I'm still a fairly new newbie in the realm of FreeBSD and hope to get even further knowledgable in mailing, web, and dns services. BTW, I'm new to the list. Hi. Taylor Dondich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Knowles" To: "Andrew Boothman" ; "Benjamin Krueger" Cc: "Courtney Thomas" ; Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 6:12 PM Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) > At 4:02 PM +0000 2002/03/24, Andrew Boothman wrote: > > > I was interested about what you said about qmail and its author. > > I've recently started playing with qmail to investigate what mail > > server I prefer, but I agree that there is perhaps something a > > little strange about its author. I don't know what, perhaps its > > just that I find qmail.org such a weird site. > > The author of qmail is rightly considered to be one of the most > whacked-out kooks on the 'net. > > I've been on IETF mailing lists with him, and his attitude is > always that he is always right (by definition) and everyone else is > always wrong (by definition). He insists on replying to each and > every mail message posted to the list, and constantly dredging up old > points that everyone else has agreed were dead a long, long, long > time ago. > > He will reply to messages that are not anywhere near remotely > related to his favourite topic, quote some random line that is least > unlike the straw-man position that he wants to destroy, and then go > off on a multi-page rant. > > He considers himself to be God's gift to programming, security, > Internet mail, DNS, cryptography, and anything else he cares to > decide to screw around with, and woe betide anyone who ever disagrees > with his world-view -- even if that world-view changes and you used > to be his most vocal supporter. > > > The problem is that he is generally totally fscking clueless (at > least on all the topics with which I am familiar), and his > whacked-out ideas of how things should be done are non-solutions to > non-problems, and he simply doesn't understand what the real problems > are. > > > Let's take qmail as one example. Read the literature, and you > will find pretty universal agreement that the single biggest problem > with handling Internet e-mail is the issue of synchronous meta-data > updates, followed by synchronous data writes -- basically, you're > waiting on the disk, which is the single slowest device in the entire > system by many, many orders of magnitude, and the RFCs require you to > do things that mean that you can't really make much use of the kinds > of buffers and things you'd normally use to help insulate yourself > from such seriously heinous latency issues. > > The problem is that every time you create a file, delete a file, > or rename a file, the entire directory in which that file is located > must be locked for the exclusive use of that one process, for the > length of that directory operation. Now, you may be able to handle > these operations very quickly, but when you serialize all directory > operations in a busy mail queue, this starts to become a serious > problem. > > Compound this problem with the fact that you are required by the > RFCs to have committed the mail message to stable storage before you > respond to the sender "Okay, I've got it." You have to flush the > buffer for that file, and wait for the writes to complete before you > can proceed. You also have to flush the write buffer for the > directory before you can proceed (to ensure that the meta-data > updates are reliably written out). > > Now, it turns out that older versions of sendmail make this > problem doubly worse by using two files in /var/spool/mqueue for > every mail message -- a qf* file and a df* file (with others being > optional). This means twice as many files get created, written, > read, and deleted in a very short period of time (with appropriate > flushes of the buffers and waiting for the message to be committed to > stable storage before continuing, etc...). > > > But qmail makes this even worse -- it uses *three* files per > message! At least postfix is more intelligent and it uses only one > file (albeit in a proprietary format). > > Starting with version 8.12, sendmail has a new async I/O library > that allows it to avoid *ALL* synchronous meta-data updates in most > cases (i.e., those where the initial delivery attempt is successful). > It's kind of hard to beat zero synchronous meta-data updates. ;-) > > > More importantly, the author of postfix has relatively little ego > wrapped up in his programs, and if you can show him an error or an > incorrect assumption, he will generally listen to you. > > Do you know why no one has never collected the "bug bounty" that > the author of qmail has offered? Simple -- he has never publicly > acknowledged that any of his programs are less than 100% completely > and totally perfect, and any time someone does point out something > that is wrong, while he doesn't recognize it as a "bug", the problem > does seem to mysteriously get fixed in later releases. > > There's a lot more development going on with regards to sendmail, > and it may be more difficult to get them to listen to you. But I do > know that Eric, Greg, Claus, and crew do listen, because they are in > the process of eliminating every single major potential software > bottleneck that I identified in my "Sendmail Performance Tuning for > Large Systems" paper that I presented at SANE'98 (see > ). > > > I've got a whole laundry list (some twenty-three items by now) of > things that are wrong with tinydns and dnscache, and a lot of them > have to do with problems regarding the megalomaniacal author and his > unholy disciples. I will be writing them up, but I can't make any > guarantees as to when I'll be able to put them online. > > Even if I document my writings extensively with references to his > own web pages, documentation, etc... and the public writings of > others, I'm sure that he'll still file libel and slander charges > against me -- he does the same to anyone else who dares to speak out > against him, especially those who do so in a public forum. > > > God help you if you ever join the Church of Dan. And Dan help > you if you don't. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook > page at and see how much fun you can have. > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 19:23:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE77737B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 94686 invoked by uid 100); 25 Mar 2002 03:23:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15518.38943.907647.117841@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:23:11 -0600 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > At 02:29 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > figuring that most of their audience will be using Internet Explorer, > > > and the small minority who aren't will be able to find their way to an IE > > > without too much effort. (It is free, right?) > >How can I use IE if I don't run Windows or a RISC workstation? > You may be right, web designers may not think outside of > IE-compatibility. I think they may have when Navigator was still a factor > in the browser wars, but maybe not anymore. No, they've always been that blind. First it was Mosaic, then Mosaic+Netscape, then Netscape, then Netscape+IE, now just IE. And yes, I've been bitching about it that long. > And I would imagine that even if you don't personally own/use a > Windows-capable PC, you probably could get to one rather easily. I would > imagine that most people on this list could, but I'm sure there are exceptions. Not when I'm sitting in my car on the side of I-whatever, trying to find a map. I can get to my Palm there. A Windows box? Not likely. > >Better yet, how do I put a system running MSIE in my pocket and carry > >it around? A properly designed web site will work fine on browsers I > >can fit in my pocket. That's why I run w3m with autoloading of frames > >turned off - I want to know which web sites are going to work on my > >Palm, and which aren't, and seldom bookmark the latter. > Well, first of all you could do what I did--get a PocketPC and taa-daa, > you've got Internet Explorer in your pocket. :-) Just curious, but how complete is it? Java, JavaScript, Frames, CSL, SSL, etc? And what do you use on the FreeBSD side of things? > But seriously, the best examples that I've seen of "pocket" compatibility > are with web sites that alter an alternative version, usually a > mobile.somewebpage.com that does away with lots of the frills that weigh > down so many sites. That even seems to be the route to browser > compatibility for most sites I visit--detect the user's browser and route > him accordingly to the correct page. Yeah, I know. I was warning people about having to maintain two versions of a web site for pocket usability in '96. I later got paid to create just such a site for palm.net. Sometimes, being right just sucks. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 19:58: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D7137B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2P3vDR00909; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:57:12 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Brad Knowles Cc: Andrew Boothman , Benjamin Krueger , Courtney Thomas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020324195712.B360@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:12:46AM +0100 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brad Knowles (brad.knowles@skynet.be) [020324 18:14]: > At 4:02 PM +0000 2002/03/24, Andrew Boothman wrote: > > > I was interested about what you said about qmail and its author. > > I've recently started playing with qmail to investigate what mail > > server I prefer, but I agree that there is perhaps something a > > little strange about its author. I don't know what, perhaps its > > just that I find qmail.org such a weird site. > > The author of qmail is rightly considered to be one of the most > whacked-out kooks on the 'net. [ ... lengthy, humerous missive about djb in a nutshell here ... ] Brad, you have put this more eloquently than I ever could have, and you couldn't be more correct. Thank You. =) Now I'm just counting the seconds until DJB suddenly appears on the list to rebutt you and defend his dearest reputation against those who would sully such a fine person... -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 20:14:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from best.llama.com (llama.com [63.194.69.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD01D37B405 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from the@localhost) by best.llama.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA41102; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from the) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:14:01 -0800 From: Sam Habash To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Brad Knowles , Andrew Boothman , Courtney Thomas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020324201401.A41079@llama.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020324195712.B360@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020324195712.B360@rain.macguire.net>; from benjamin@macguire.net on Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 07:57:12PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 07:57:12PM -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > [ ... lengthy, humerous missive about djb in a nutshell here ... ] > > Brad, you have put this more eloquently than I ever could have, and you > couldn't be more correct. Thank You. =) > > Now I'm just counting the seconds until DJB suddenly appears on the list to > rebutt you and defend his dearest reputation against those who would sully > such a fine person... We may get our wish, sooner than we may like. Quoting from "http://cr.yp.to": "The cr.yp.to servers are located in the Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science at the University of Illinois at Chicago. DNS service, HTTP/FTP service, and mail service are powered by djbdns, publicfile, and qmail respectively. The machines were running OpenBSD for some time, but they are being switched to FreeBSD. " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (emphasis mine) Based on threads like: http://www.monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00459.html I don't see the OpenBSD folks shedding much of a tear at their loss... --Sam -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Friction causes sparks, enough to light up a relationship or bring it down in flames...what's left can't even be used to pad the rest of my lame .sig -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 21:23:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26CB37B404 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ergo.dhs.org (d57-117-31.home.cgocable.net [24.57.117.31]) by fep1.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BAA3A18; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:23:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] From: Muhannad Asfour To: Chip Morton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Gc8BNHmlUTmwZLiRarZW" X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2 Date: 25 Mar 2002 00:23:09 -0500 Message-Id: <1017033789.643.1.camel@ergo.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-Gc8BNHmlUTmwZLiRarZW Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's actually possible to run IE 5 for Solaris on FreeBSD? On Sun, 2002-03-24 at 19:34, Chip Morton wrote: > At 02:29 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > figuring that most of their audience will be using Internet Explorer, > > > and the small minority who aren't will be able to find their way to a= n IE > > > without too much effort. (It is free, right?) > > > >How can I use IE if I don't run Windows or a RISC workstation? >=20 > You may be right, web designers may not think outside of=20 > IE-compatibility. I think they may have when Navigator was still a facto= r=20 > in the browser wars, but maybe not anymore. >=20 > And I would imagine that even if you don't personally own/use a=20 > Windows-capable PC, you probably could get to one rather easily. I would= =20 > imagine that most people on this list could, but I'm sure there are excep= tions. >=20 >=20 > >Better yet, how do I put a system running MSIE in my pocket and carry > >it around? A properly designed web site will work fine on browsers I > >can fit in my pocket. That's why I run w3m with autoloading of frames > >turned off - I want to know which web sites are going to work on my > >Palm, and which aren't, and seldom bookmark the latter. >=20 > Well, first of all you could do what I did--get a PocketPC and taa-daa,=20 > you've got Internet Explorer in your pocket. :-) >=20 > But seriously, the best examples that I've seen of "pocket" compatibility= =20 > are with web sites that alter an alternative version, usually a=20 > mobile.somewebpage.com that does away with lots of the frills that weigh=20 > down so many sites. That even seems to be the route to browser=20 > compatibility for most sites I visit--detect the user's browser and route= =20 > him accordingly to the correct page. >=20 > << Chip Morton >> >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=-Gc8BNHmlUTmwZLiRarZW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8nrQ9ck977FUKFQQRAojCAJoDFDpQeliGdJnfZn+lNwfb06XhVQCbBj82 bH2KdLe7BXiFZ24JVuihLfQ= =X3D1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Gc8BNHmlUTmwZLiRarZW-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 23:33:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2290D37B419 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2P7XND05547; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:33:24 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra in.macguire.net><3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net><20020323084327.A354@r ain.macguire.net><3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:11:42 +0100 To: "Taylor Dondich" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:16 PM -0800 2002/03/24, Taylor Dondich wrote: > I've got to say this was one of the most entertaining peices of e-mail I've > read all day; furthermore, it was the most informative of them all. I just > started using qmail as my mail delivery system of choice because sendmail > was EXTREMELY difficult to configure in the ways that I wanted. I've never had problems configuring sendmail to do the things I want, but then I recognized in 1994 that the configuration file syntax is basically a data-driven self-recursive language, similar to Prolog. I never had a problem with it after that. ;-) More recent versions of sendmail have become easier to configure, but there is still a lot of deep magic you need to understand, if you want to implement more complex tasks for which m4 macros have not yet been created, or just generally want/need to do something that doesn't fit into the standard sendmail "flow" of doing things. This is one of the reasons why I started looking seriously at postfix, and got involved with it at a very early stage (back when Wietse was still calling it VMail). There have been a number of recommendations that I have made to Wietse regarding suggested improvements, and most of them were made in short order (it took me a little while longer to get him to come around on some of the others ;-). IMO, postfix is not yet quite a 100% drop-in replacement for sendmail, but it does handle 99% of the job, and most people won't need that last 1% it doesn't yet do. Moreover, postfix has the simplest configuration language that I have ever seen for any program, and the largest set of "sane but secure" defaults -- It is entirely possible to have a fully functional postfix installation where the entire configuration file is just two lines long. Just try having a two-line configuration file for any other program on the planet.... Okay, any other general-purpose MTA. ;-) > I'm > beginning to start up a webhosting service with virtual domain hosting with > full e-mail services and qmail was frankly the only package out there with > the commitment and features that seemed close to my liking. I was also > looking at the other tools out there that I could slap on top of qmail to > make it more functional (vpopmail, sqwebmail, etc). Granted, there are a number of add-on features that have been created for qmail. I believe that it is possible to duplicate those features, or significantly improve on them, using other programs with other MTAs (including sendmail and postfix), but it would take more work to do so because you'd have to take a number of programs from different groups and put them together. However, this is the real power of the Unix "toolbox" philosophy -- you can put the tools together that you want, in most any way you want, making the result do just about whatever you want. Unfortunately, Dan breaks this philosophy by tightly integrating all his tools together, and making it so that they are all interdependent. For example, you can't use the standard inetd that ships with your system, you are instead forced to use his tcpserver. And heaven help you if you need to do something that isn't covered by his tools, because Dan sure won't. If qmail does everything you need and does it in a way that you can comprehend, then you would be pretty foolish to just throw all that away because of personality issues with the author. Nevertheless, I would encourage you to look at alternatives, because sooner or later I believe that you are either going to need to do something that Dan does not consider to be important, or you are going to run afoul of personality issues with him yourself -- either way, you will then be out in the cold. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 23:33:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A453537B405 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2P7XQD05575; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:33:26 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020324201401.A41079@llama.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020324195712.B360@rain.macguire.net> <20020324201401.A41079@llama.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:33:16 +0100 To: Sam Habash , Benjamin Krueger From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Brad Knowles , Andrew Boothman , Courtney Thomas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:14 PM -0800 2002/03/24, Sam Habash wrote: > The machines were running OpenBSD for some time, but they are being > switched to FreeBSD. " > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ghu help us. > Based on threads like: > > http://www.monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00459.html > > I don't see the OpenBSD folks shedding much of a tear at their loss... What I read of this was extremely mild. Some of the private e-mail that I was copied during one of his many litigious events [0] would cause your testicles to permanently retract. You'd think that, one of these days, he'd piss off someone who is even more mentally unstable than he is (as remarkable as that would be), and then his funeral would shortly follow -- closed casket, of course, because they wouldn't be able to find all the parts. I dunno. Maybe we'll get lucky. [0] Regarding some disparaging (but accurate) comments that were made about him and his methods by a friend of mine on the SecurityFocus website. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 24 23:52:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7568837B405 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tim@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g2P7qaA98905; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 01:52:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 01:52:36 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: Taylor Dondich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 08:11:42AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > However, this is the real power of the Unix "toolbox" philosophy > -- you can put the tools together that you want, in most any way you > want, making the result do just about whatever you want. > Unfortunately, Dan breaks this philosophy by tightly integrating all > his tools together, and making it so that they are all > interdependent. You are kidding right? It looks to me that you are completely blinded by your disdain for Dan. You don't think Postfix took a lot of design hints from qmail? qmail is one of the most modular systems out there. > For example, you can't use the standard inetd that > ships with your system, you are instead forced to use his tcpserver. > And heaven help you if you need to do something that isn't covered by > his tools, because Dan sure won't. From the INSTALL file on a qmail-1.03 distribution 16. Set up qmail-smtpd in /etc/inetd.conf (all on one line): smtp stream tcp nowait qmaild /var/qmail/bin/tcp-env tcp-env /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd > because sooner or later I believe that you are either going to need > to do something that Dan does not consider to be important, or you > are going to run afoul of personality issues with him yourself -- > either way, you will then be out in the cold. the qmail user community is more than sufficient for support. I like Postfix myself, but you are so blatantly biased I am not sure you are any better than what you are accusing Dan of. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 0:47:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B07537B41C for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2P8krr28329; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:46:54 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:46:30 +0100 To: Tim , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Taylor Dondich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:52 AM -0600 2002/03/25, Tim wrote: > You are kidding right? It looks to me that you are completely blinded by > your disdain for Dan. You don't think Postfix took a lot of design hints > from qmail? qmail is one of the most modular systems out there. Wietse saw qmail, and saw that there were a whole host of things wrong with it. Moreover, he also knew that the author was intractable, and there was no hope of ever getting any of these problems fixed. Since he needed to have a subject for a particular chapter of his upcoming book on "secure programming" that he is writing with Dan Farmer, he took this subject matter and began the VMailer project. This later became the program we now call postfix. IMO, qmail is modular in the same sense that a hammer is modular -- you can use it to bang on whatever you want. Hmm, make that a rock, and not a particularly sturdy one. I'm sorry, if you haven't been doing Internet mail for around a decade or so, and you haven't personally gone toe-to-toe with Dan when he gets on one of his whacked-out kicks, you just don't have the experience that you would need in order to be able to defend your position. Contrariwise, anyone who has crossed swords with Dan, or seen one of his many irrational tirades, can easily provide their personal evidence of his behaviour problems. >> For example, you can't use the standard inetd that >> ships with your system, you are instead forced to use his tcpserver. >> And heaven help you if you need to do something that isn't covered by >> his tools, because Dan sure won't. > >>From the INSTALL file on a qmail-1.03 distribution > > 16. Set up qmail-smtpd in /etc/inetd.conf (all on one line): > smtp stream tcp nowait qmaild /var/qmail/bin/tcp-env > tcp-env /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd Try that with tinydns or dnscache. I was talking about a general philosophy that Dan applies, not necessarily the specific implementation found in qmail. Moreover, you still haven't answered the issue of the size of the configuration file, or the number of lines required. Can you actually do anything useful with any program written by Dan in two lines of configuration file? > the qmail user community is more than sufficient for support. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Just like C makes a perfectly good macro language. > I like Postfix myself, but you are so blatantly biased I am not sure you > are any better than what you are accusing Dan of. I loathe and despise Dan, that is correct. I am perfectly honest and upfront about that. And because I do not trust the author as far as I can bodily throw his planet of residence, I do not trust the code that he writes. Moreover, because of the reality distortion field that he seems to manifest, I also don't trust anything associated with any of the programs he writes. I've been using Unix and the Internet since 1984 -- almost twenty years. I've been administering Unix and the Internet since 1989 -- thirteen years. I've been doing DNS and Internet mail system administration since sometime around 1991, so about eleven years. In that time, I have been the Technical POC for disa.mil, I helped set up the DOD CERT (assist.mil) in just seven days from mere concept to operational reality (at a time when there was just a single NIC, and the root zone was only updated once a week), I was the Postmaster and Internet mail systems administrator for over 10,000 users on the DISAnet network, and one of my "customers" was the Milnet Manager himself (Major Dave Paciorkowski at the time). I was also responsible for turning in a number of Class A and B network numbers that were not being used, as well as convincing the SIPRnet folks (the people on the classified side) that they should use the DNS and not HOSTS.TXT files, and that they should use real network numbers assigned by the NIC, in case there ever was a time in the distant future when they were connected to the real Internet. I have also been the Sr. Internet Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, responsible for providing technical leadership to the team administering well over a hundred servers that provided the e-mail gateway to/from the Internet for millions and millions of AOL customers. I also designed what is probably still the worlds largest caching nameserver farm while I was at AOL, benchmarked at being capable of handling 32,000-64,000 DNS queries per second. I have also been a Sr. Consultant for Collective Technologies, a leading Unix/Internet consulting firm in the US. While at CT, I consulted for a number of companies, including some of the largest freemail service providers in the world. I have also been the Systems Architect for Belgacom Skynet, the largest ISP in Belgium. I have given classes on DNS for the company Men & Mice, using material written by Cricket Liu (and I will be doing so again at SANE 2002). I will soon again be a Sr. Consultant, this time for Snow BV in the Netherlands, another leading Unix/Internet consulting company in Europe. In all the time I've been in this business, and with all my hard-earned experience, I have found damn few programs that can stand up to the rigors of the kind of work that I have done. With regards to being a general-purpose MTA, sendmail is at the top of that list, especially with recent improvements that allow it to be as fast or faster than anything else on the planet. I also have very high regard for postfix, and I have heard a lot of good things about Exim (although I regret that I have not yet had an opportunity to do any work with it). I have had more or less negative experiences with every other MTA that I have encountered, and qmail ranks below dog poop in my book. IMO, you would literally be better off flinging canine excrement than using qmail. With regards to nameservers, there simply is nothing else publicly available to compare with BIND. Yes, some companies have developed internal nameserver programs that they have used to help them provide service at an unequalled level (e.g., Nominum), but those programs are not publicly available. Of the programs that are available, BIND wins hands-down. If you can show me a comparable level of experience and talent on your part, then I'd be very interested in having a private in-depth discussion on the relative merits and demerits of various programs with you, including discussions of detailed benchmarks that you have run as compared to benchmarks that I have run, etc.... However, unless you are willing and able to function on this level, I doubt that there is anything you're likely to bring to this debate that I would find useful or interesting. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 2: 3:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net [24.234.0.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A59A37B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin (cm003.28.234.24.lvcm.com [24.234.28.3]) by 100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with SMTP id ABM88222; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:03:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001901c1d3e4$59f9ec80$6600a8c0@penguin> From: "Taylor Dondich" To: References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra<000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin><20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> Subject: qmail replacement (Was: qmail, aka: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:03:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I like the points made, however this might seem to be brinking on the edge of a flame war. I can definately understand the mentality of not using a peice of software based on your experience with the author. A reflection of mentality goes into your work. And I can see where there are downsides to qmail's system. Sendmail seems to be the defacto, I can see why. Does anyone know of a way to implement sendmail in a virtual hosting scenario with the same flexability that qmail offers? I mean, I've seen a lot of "hacks" to get sendmail working with virtual hosting, things like setting up EACH individual user on each virtual host as a user on that server, but that's kind of ridiculous. I haven't really looked much further into the issue when I came across qmail tho. So do we have any ideas then? Taylor Dondich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Knowles" To: "Tim" ; "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Taylor Dondich" ; Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 12:46 AM Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) > At 1:52 AM -0600 2002/03/25, Tim wrote: > > > You are kidding right? It looks to me that you are completely blinded by > > your disdain for Dan. You don't think Postfix took a lot of design hints > > from qmail? qmail is one of the most modular systems out there. > > Wietse saw qmail, and saw that there were a whole host of things > wrong with it. Moreover, he also knew that the author was > intractable, and there was no hope of ever getting any of these > problems fixed. Since he needed to have a subject for a particular > chapter of his upcoming book on "secure programming" that he is > writing with Dan Farmer, he took this subject matter and began the > VMailer project. This later became the program we now call postfix. > > IMO, qmail is modular in the same sense that a hammer is modular > -- you can use it to bang on whatever you want. Hmm, make that a > rock, and not a particularly sturdy one. > > > I'm sorry, if you haven't been doing Internet mail for around a > decade or so, and you haven't personally gone toe-to-toe with Dan > when he gets on one of his whacked-out kicks, you just don't have the > experience that you would need in order to be able to defend your > position. > > Contrariwise, anyone who has crossed swords with Dan, or seen one > of his many irrational tirades, can easily provide their personal > evidence of his behaviour problems. > > >> For example, you can't use the standard inetd that > >> ships with your system, you are instead forced to use his tcpserver. > >> And heaven help you if you need to do something that isn't covered by > >> his tools, because Dan sure won't. > > > >>From the INSTALL file on a qmail-1.03 distribution > > > > 16. Set up qmail-smtpd in /etc/inetd.conf (all on one line): > > smtp stream tcp nowait qmaild /var/qmail/bin/tcp-env > > tcp-env /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd > > Try that with tinydns or dnscache. I was talking about a general > philosophy that Dan applies, not necessarily the specific > implementation found in qmail. Moreover, you still haven't answered > the issue of the size of the configuration file, or the number of > lines required. Can you actually do anything useful with any program > written by Dan in two lines of configuration file? > > > the qmail user community is more than sufficient for support. > > Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Just like C makes a perfectly good macro language. > > > I like Postfix myself, but you are so blatantly biased I am not sure you > > are any better than what you are accusing Dan of. > > I loathe and despise Dan, that is correct. I am perfectly honest > and upfront about that. And because I do not trust the author as far > as I can bodily throw his planet of residence, I do not trust the > code that he writes. Moreover, because of the reality distortion > field that he seems to manifest, I also don't trust anything > associated with any of the programs he writes. > > > I've been using Unix and the Internet since 1984 -- almost twenty > years. I've been administering Unix and the Internet since 1989 -- > thirteen years. I've been doing DNS and Internet mail system > administration since sometime around 1991, so about eleven years. > > In that time, I have been the Technical POC for disa.mil, I > helped set up the DOD CERT (assist.mil) in just seven days from mere > concept to operational reality (at a time when there was just a > single NIC, and the root zone was only updated once a week), I was > the Postmaster and Internet mail systems administrator for over > 10,000 users on the DISAnet network, and one of my "customers" was > the Milnet Manager himself (Major Dave Paciorkowski at the time). I > was also responsible for turning in a number of Class A and B network > numbers that were not being used, as well as convincing the SIPRnet > folks (the people on the classified side) that they should use the > DNS and not HOSTS.TXT files, and that they should use real network > numbers assigned by the NIC, in case there ever was a time in the > distant future when they were connected to the real Internet. > > I have also been the Sr. Internet Mail Systems Administrator for > America Online, responsible for providing technical leadership to the > team administering well over a hundred servers that provided the > e-mail gateway to/from the Internet for millions and millions of AOL > customers. I also designed what is probably still the worlds largest > caching nameserver farm while I was at AOL, benchmarked at being > capable of handling 32,000-64,000 DNS queries per second. > > I have also been a Sr. Consultant for Collective Technologies, a > leading Unix/Internet consulting firm in the US. While at CT, I > consulted for a number of companies, including some of the largest > freemail service providers in the world. I have also been the > Systems Architect for Belgacom Skynet, the largest ISP in Belgium. I > have given classes on DNS for the company Men & Mice, using material > written by Cricket Liu (and I will be doing so again at SANE 2002). > I will soon again be a Sr. Consultant, this time for Snow BV in the > Netherlands, another leading Unix/Internet consulting company in > Europe. > > > In all the time I've been in this business, and with all my > hard-earned experience, I have found damn few programs that can stand > up to the rigors of the kind of work that I have done. > > With regards to being a general-purpose MTA, sendmail is at the > top of that list, especially with recent improvements that allow it > to be as fast or faster than anything else on the planet. I also > have very high regard for postfix, and I have heard a lot of good > things about Exim (although I regret that I have not yet had an > opportunity to do any work with it). I have had more or less > negative experiences with every other MTA that I have encountered, > and qmail ranks below dog poop in my book. IMO, you would literally > be better off flinging canine excrement than using qmail. > > With regards to nameservers, there simply is nothing else > publicly available to compare with BIND. Yes, some companies have > developed internal nameserver programs that they have used to help > them provide service at an unequalled level (e.g., Nominum), but > those programs are not publicly available. Of the programs that are > available, BIND wins hands-down. > > > If you can show me a comparable level of experience and talent on > your part, then I'd be very interested in having a private in-depth > discussion on the relative merits and demerits of various programs > with you, including discussions of detailed benchmarks that you have > run as compared to benchmarks that I have run, etc.... > > However, unless you are willing and able to function on this > level, I doubt that there is anything you're likely to bring to this > debate that I would find useful or interesting. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook > page at and see how much fun you can have. > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 2:15:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B96037B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21179 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Mar 2002 10:15:28 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:15:28 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020325101528.GA20974@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I don't have a resume nearly as impressive as Brad, I shall concede my defeat. For anybody else that wishes to judge a piece of software by its merits beyond the size of the configuration file or the personality of its author, I'd suggest that you read the respective archives on the history of how qmail and dnscache/tinydns (and now djbdns) came to be. I like postfix just fine but I run qmail for a number of reasons. I'd recommend http://www.lwq.org and http://www.djbdns.org for more information on qmail/djbdns. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 2:42: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE4E37B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRv6-0000SE-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:41:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:41:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Tim , Taylor Dondich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > Try that with tinydns or dnscache. I was talking about a general > philosophy that Dan applies, not necessarily the specific > implementation found in qmail. Moreover, you still haven't answered > the issue of the size of the configuration file, or the number of > lines required. Can you actually do anything useful with any program > written by Dan in two lines of configuration file? Actually, the IETF group DNSEXT went the rounds with Dan bringing up old issues that had been settled in a way which did not agree with the philosophy of tinydns or dnscache, while I was a member of that working group. The position Dan maintained was that: 1) All DNS servers should be primary (no such thing as a secondary which replicated information off a primary in this philosophy). 2) DNSUPDAT was a nad idea because it required that the DNS server permit updates over the wire. 3) Replication of data between the most primary primary and the other "primaries" was an exercise for the student, and should be handled out of band. The general consensus of the working group was that: 1) DNSUPDAT was needed for certain applications, and in the non-DNSUDAT world, these applications were not possible. 2) Primary and secondary relationships between DNS servers is a good thing, in general, and very useful. 3) The proper way to maintain stores of DNS data is to use the DNS protocol. Lest it be said that I'm also "prejudiced", I strongly disagreed with the workgroup when it came to reverse records for IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration; I felt that it was enough for the normal getpeername/gethostbyaddr & gethostbyname/compare crosscheck to check for spoofed DNS addresses, if one were to permit a local zone update for a foreign machine reverse record, if the forward record matched the local stateless addresss assignment from which the update was coming. In other words, ther are disagreements in any IETF group, but the disagreements between the group and Dan were almost never resolved via compromise (I persoanlly can't think of one case, actually). > With regards to being a general-purpose MTA, sendmail is at the > top of that list, especially with recent improvements that allow it > to be as fast or faster than anything else on the planet. I have to agree. I did the NOC design for the IBM Web Connections product, which was deployed at the IBM hosting facility in Rochester, New York, and sendmail was my first choice, after minor modifications (David Wolfskill was very involved in this as well). Postfix was a second choice, and it's queueing structure was really not amenable to being able to host 50,000 virtual domains on two mail servers, but sendmail could handle it. > With regards to nameservers, there simply is nothing else > publicly available to compare with BIND. I agree again. While we didn't end up using the DNSUPDAT facility, since zone creation in a secondary required mode work than we were willing to spend at the time (zone creation in the primary is a matter of removing a single "if" test; in a secondary, it requires verification of an established security association on the transfer connection, which is a pain in the butt, but doable), we did use bind. It was not a problem to do the updates of the primary and secondary seperately, following an update of the database from which the domain data placed in the configuration files was derived, since there is implicit fail-over support based on having a hierarchical relationship between servers. With Dan's arrangement, the secondary answering in the negative is cached as authoritative, and the dmaon is off the air for at least another 300 seconds (if not longer), as that's the minimum default cache expiration time that most ISPs run on their caching name servers. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 2:44:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046FE37B405 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRxL-0001Vz-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:44:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9EFF5A.AF74DF7@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:43:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Taylor Dondich Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail replacement (Was: qmail, aka: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra<000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin><20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <001901c1d3e4$59f9ec80$6600a8c0@penguin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Taylor Dondich wrote: > Does anyone know of a way to implement sendmail in a virtual hosting > scenario with the same flexability that qmail offers? I mean, I've seen a > lot of "hacks" to get sendmail working with virtual hosting, things like > setting up EACH individual user on each virtual host as a user on that > server, but that's kind of ridiculous. I haven't really looked much further > into the issue when I came across qmail tho. > > So do we have any ideas then? Use an LDAP map, and then update the LDAP directory with your virtual domain hosting records. This is how Standford, 411, and BigMailbox.com operate. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 3:52:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0D6837B419 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22136 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Mar 2002 11:52:07 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 05:52:07 -0600 From: Tim To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you Terry. I appreciate your input on the matter as you actually provided information instead of random drivel. Brad could very much be right in the end. He just couldn't get past his DJB hatre to provide any real merits in his argument (like judging software base on ease of configuration and the size of the configuration file - what was that all about?). I am not surprised, however, about Dan's antics. I've observed his conversations since he was a graduate student at NYU. I do have a question though: > It was not > a problem to do the updates of the primary and secondary > seperately, following an update of the database from which > the domain data placed in the configuration files was derived, > since there is implicit fail-over support based on having a > hierarchical relationship between servers. With Dan's > arrangement, the secondary answering in the negative is cached > as authoritative, and the dmaon is off the air for at least > another 300 seconds (if not longer), as that's the minimum > default cache expiration time that most ISPs run on their > caching name servers. Can you explain this further? I've read it about 5 times and I am not sure I understand exactly. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 4:34: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44B537B41A for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A5BAF5347; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:33:47 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Mar 2002 13:33:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > My experience is that IE renders pages faster than any other browser > I've used recently (except Lynx) and I never find myself wondering if > a page will display correctly. It handles with ease all the > "standards-compliant" pages that I've seen. It dismally fails to display xhtml. I maintain a couple of pure xhtml websites, and have been forced to cripple them so they would be viewable in IE. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 4:38:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADAF37B416 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pTjj-0004T1-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:38:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:37:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim wrote: > I do have a question though: > > > It was not > > a problem to do the updates of the primary and secondary > > seperately, following an update of the database from which > > the domain data placed in the configuration files was derived, > > since there is implicit fail-over support based on having a > > hierarchical relationship between servers. With Dan's > > arrangement, the secondary answering in the negative is cached > > as authoritative, and the dmaon is off the air for at least > > another 300 seconds (if not longer), as that's the minimum > > default cache expiration time that most ISPs run on their > > caching name servers. > > Can you explain this further? I've read it about 5 times and I am > not sure I understand exactly. I was afraid this might become a question. It boils down to understanding derived data files, and some deep DNS voodoo. To create a zone in a secondary bind server, you have to list the zone in the secondary's list of zones for which it is a secondary, and therefore performs periodic zone transfers. If you are adding a domain to a virtual hosting system that includes DNS service for the domain, and the primary data source is actually a database, then daemon configuration files are actually derived data from the database. What that means is that when I add a new zone to the database, for it to take effect, I have to add it to the DNS servers. For the primary, I can relax the rule on zone creation via DNSUPDAT, and do it in software, without an interruption of service. But for a secondary, it is not possible to do the same thing, because of the semantics of the security policy. In other words, you are allowed to relax the rules for zone creation on a primary DNS server, but doing so on a secondary can't be done. What you could do, if you truly wanted to solve this problem, would be to establish a security association between the primary and the secondary. Then, if you trusted the primary not to send bogus zone creation requests to you, the secondary, you could piggyback the zone creations on the security association for a domain you already know about (the easiest one to use would be the domain for the hosting facility itself, if it were self-hosted in the same DNS). In practice, making this work would have been around 300 lines of code for a piggyback, and about 850 lines of code, if you wanted to add a new update type for "create zone in secondary" that would have to use a seperate security association for the created. Instead, what we did was just stagger the updates, and derive both the primary and secondary server from the central database, and then kick the DNS servers on both machines in the head. So we didn't use DNSUDAT, and we didn't hack bind or security code. Because the update-from-database-and-kick-in-the-head (SIGHUP) were staggered, it meant that the primary and secondary servers were never offline at the same time. This means that the worst case failure would be the client having to send a request, time out, and send another request to another server. The secondary update was staggered to occur after the primary; what this meant was that there would be an immediate zone transfer from the primary for the new zone in the secondary, so the only data that needed updating was the zone record itself. Everything else happened on the primary. Because the secondary was subservient in the hierarchy, the replication of the data to the secondary was automatic, and guaranteed correctness. In the djbdns case, both would be primary, and one might contain stale data relative to the other (e.g. a bad serial number) because the configuration data was derived. The 300 second timeout enforced by caching DNS servers (in violation of the RFC, but it's common practice) meant that if a client hit at the wrong time, everyone on the wrong side of the caching DNS server might have a negative cache entry for 5 minutes, using the djbdns approach (e.g. "don't bother me; the domain doesn't exist; believe me, I'm authoritative") plus however long the delay was in replicating the data, plus the delay for a kick-in-the-head to take effect. We had a 30 minute stagger, so it was a good 40+ minut window in which someone could be off the air, if they made a request through a cache at just the right time. This was really unacceptable for customers. If the DNS load had ever strained a machine, we could have gone to a "stealth primary". This is wehre you list the secondary servers as the primary and secondaries in the domain registration, so their delegation out of ".com" or whatever doesn't reference your primary. Then the primary does absolutely nothing but handle zone updates and referrals for unknown domains during the window between the primary update and the secondary update, when someone is hitting a delegation. Really, you want to be able to turn around a preliminary domain registration within a browser timeout, and have the customer functional. For something like an email hosting service, it's pretty stupid to communicate DNS registration stuff to a mailbox other than one you are hosting: if they have email service, then why the heck would they need to buy it again from you? The same goes for other service registration: sending them back to a competitor, over and over again, to comunicate with you is a lose-lose proposition. You might as well buy a gun and start engraving the word "foot" into your bullets, so they know where they are supposed to go. 8-). Unfortunately, the domain registrars aren't very cooperative when it comes to deploying dynamic update protocols, even if you are IBM doing the asking. It's really annoying. There are workarounds for the sneaky, but they require dead chickens and other dark talismans. ;^). DNS registration is like the old phone company slogan from the fortunes database: "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company." -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 4:41:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0613F37B405 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 774695346; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:41:10 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Taylor Dondich" Cc: Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Mar 2002 13:41:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Taylor Dondich" writes: > I've got to say this was one of the most entertaining peices of e-mail I've > read all day; furthermore, it was the most informative of them all. I just > started using qmail as my mail delivery system of choice because sendmail > was EXTREMELY difficult to configure in the ways that I wanted. I'm > beginning to start up a webhosting service with virtual domain hosting with > full e-mail services and qmail was frankly the only package out there with > the commitment and features that seemed close to my liking. You can't have looked very hard at Postfix. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 4:59:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE7B37B404 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pU3r-00071b-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:58:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9F1EF6.CB28EDD7@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:58:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Taylor Dondich , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > You can't have looked very hard at Postfix. Wedging per domain mail queues into Postfix is much harder than wedging them into sendmail. They are almost natural in sendmail (well, older versions of sendmail; the newer stuff breaks a lot of intersting things by putting security barriers in the way). If you do wedge them in, then on an ETRN/ATRN, you are guaranteed a 100% hit rate on queue messages, instead of just the percentage of the main queue of the messages for a particular domain. Yeah, it's an "abuse of the file system", but with the qmail or postfix file format, there's no way to key on the file name for this sort order, even if you were guaranteed a btree directory structure, since you have to traverse all entries and post-compare them for a match, even if you could jam it into the name. Actually, Windows has an advantage here: the Windows directory searching code is passed a globbing pattern, and does the globbing for you. That way, only files matching the pattern have their directory information copied back from kernel to user space. Doing globbing in the kernel is a *significant* performance win. A hack for this for Samba shows about a 30% performance inprovement in directory operations (Ed Lane did this work) due to reduced directory iteration overhead. Unfortunately, UNIX is pretty set in concrete in this regard (shells do globbing expansion of argument lists prior to pasing them to programs), and changing this would be really hard at this point (you can't just expand in main(), because you don't know if the paremeters passed were unquoted before they got to your main(); you'd have to screw with all sorts of semantics to make it work out "magically". And you'd need to be able to turn it off on a per program basis, if a program understood how to handle globbing by itself. It's a mess. 8-(. Even kernel globbing means you have to traverse twice the average directory length than you would for a specific file (average for an exact match is 50% of the directory; globbing requires doing the whole directory, since you can't just stop after the first match). So you might get 30% out of it for SAMBA, which is emulating the Windows globbing behaviour anyway, but the win for a mail server will be much less. And for domains, in sendmail you have to open the present before you can see who it's for (the domain name is not part of the file name, because of multiple recipients). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 6: 0:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E4A937B416 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 06:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23492 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Mar 2002 14:00:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:00:22 -0600 From: Tim To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If you are adding a domain to a virtual hosting system that > includes DNS service for the domain, and the primary data > source is actually a database, then daemon configuration files > are actually derived data from the database. Yes makes sense. I believe most larger sites do it like this. > The secondary update was staggered to occur after the primary; > what this meant was that there would be an immediate zone > transfer from the primary for the new zone in the secondary, > so the only data that needed updating was the zone record > itself. Everything else happened on the primary. Because > the secondary was subservient in the hierarchy, the replication > of the data to the secondary was automatic, and guaranteed > correctness. In the djbdns case, both would be primary, and > one might contain stale data relative to the other (e.g. a > bad serial number) because the configuration data was derived. First, I am assuming that you serialize the administration script (no parallel scripts going on). If primary/secondary has the exact same zones, then with djbdns it looks like this: database -> ns1 rsync ns1 ns2 ns2 will always be consistent with ns1 (guaranteed by rsync and filesystem semantics) if rsync is triggered after ns1 update. I agree it's more complex, from the administrative script side, if they don't have the exact same zones. The hierarchy must be enforced on the administrative script side. I agree with your points. On the other hand, djbdns solves a specific set of user needs very well (basically, those that maintain n servers each of which containing the same zones). I think it really depends on your needs. Thanks for the clarification. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 6:47:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F10F37B41B for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 06:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 045379352; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:46:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C9F37CC.4F1D1E20@pythonemproject.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 06:44:28 -0800 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Chip Morton writes: > > My experience is that IE renders pages faster than any other browser > > I've used recently (except Lynx) and I never find myself wondering if > > a page will display correctly. It handles with ease all the > > "standards-compliant" pages that I've seen. > > It dismally fails to display xhtml. I maintain a couple of pure xhtml > websites, and have been forced to cripple them so they would be > viewable in IE. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message My favorite old browser was Apple's Cyberdog. Kind of revolutinary in its day. Even on an old Power Computing PPC, it was *fast*. Then they just decided to stop supporting it. One of the reason I just decided on a whim not to ever support Apple :) Rob -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 9:50:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1596F37B422 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2PHnvr00149; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:49:57 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C9F1EF6.CB28EDD7@mindspring.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <3C9F1EF6.CB28EDD7@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:34:43 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Taylor Dondich , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:58 AM -0800 2002/03/25, Terry Lambert wrote: > Wedging per domain mail queues into Postfix is much harder > than wedging them into sendmail. They are almost natural > in sendmail (well, older versions of sendmail; the newer > stuff breaks a lot of intersting things by putting security > barriers in the way). Per-domain mail queues is one of the few things that Wietse had yet to support in postfix as of the last time I did anything with it. I believe that it was something added soon thereafter, but I haven't been able to confirm that. > If you do wedge them in, then on an ETRN/ATRN, you are > guaranteed a 100% hit rate on queue messages, instead of > just the percentage of the main queue of the messages for > a particular domain. Indeed, that is a problem. And if you get 50-60 ETRN requests per second (as our business-class mail server was getting), this causes untold amounts of unholy hell. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 9:50:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875E337B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2PHnrr00076; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:49:53 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:25:28 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Tim From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:37 AM -0800 2002/03/25, Terry Lambert wrote: > To create a zone in a secondary bind server, you have to list > the zone in the secondary's list of zones for which it is a > secondary, and therefore performs periodic zone transfers. Right, this is the /etc/named.conf file (or #include'd from it). Indeed, this really isn't any different on the primary than it is on the secondary. > If you are adding a domain to a virtual hosting system that > includes DNS service for the domain, and the primary data > source is actually a database, then daemon configuration files > are actually derived data from the database. Do you mean that the primary is directly using the database, and not the standard /etc/named.conf files? > What that means is that when I add a new zone to the database, > for it to take effect, I have to add it to the DNS servers. Right. > For the primary, I can relax the rule on zone creation via > DNSUPDAT, and do it in software, without an interruption of > service. But for a secondary, it is not possible to do the > same thing, because of the semantics of the security policy. > In other words, you are allowed to relax the rules for zone > creation on a primary DNS server, but doing so on a secondary > can't be done. Once you start using DNSUPDATE (assuming you're doing so based on cryptographic keys), you can't use manual administrative methods on the same server. With BIND 8, you could kind of hack this by shutting the server down and having it flush all its updated zones back to the configuration files and the zone files, but this doesn't work with BIND 9. > What you could do, if you truly wanted to solve this problem, > would be to establish a security association between the > primary and the secondary. Sure. Secondaries can forward updates to primaries that they are configured to know about, as well as to other servers that they are configured to send them to. You can do the same from the primary perspective using "also-notify". > Then, if you trusted the primary not to send bogus zone > creation requests to you, the secondary, you could piggyback > the zone creations on the security association for a domain > you already know about (the easiest one to use would be the > domain for the hosting facility itself, if it were self-hosted > in the same DNS). Using cryptographic keys, you can make this part of the process as trustworthy as the original update. > Instead, what we did was just stagger the updates, and derive > both the primary and secondary server from the central database, > and then kick the DNS servers on both machines in the head. So > we didn't use DNSUDAT, and we didn't hack bind or security code. This also works. We did this sort of thing at my previous employer, although we used a stealth primary and the advertised servers were secondaries of the internal primary. > Really, you want to be able to turn around a preliminary > domain registration within a browser timeout, and have the > customer functional. Absolutely. > Unfortunately, the domain registrars aren't very cooperative > when it comes to deploying dynamic update protocols, even if > you are IBM doing the asking. It's really annoying. There > are workarounds for the sneaky, but they require dead chickens > and other dark talismans. ;^). DNS registration is like the > old phone company slogan from the fortunes database: > > "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company." Sadly, this is very true. Indeed, the problem is even worse. According to the RFCs (including RFC 2870, "Root Name Server Operational Requirements", see ), root nameservers are supposed to be authoritative-only, in part to avoid cache pollution problems, etc.... Now, you would think that the same requirements would apply to all TLD nameservers around the world. Unfortunately, this is not true. It turns out that ns.eu.net is one of the advertised authoritative nameservers for something like 72 TLDs (mostly ccTLDs), and not only is it also a public recursive caching nameserver (i.e., anyone can ask it any question and it will try to obtain the appropriate information and provide it to you), it also allows zone transfers. So, if you want to screw up any of these domains, you can get a zone transfer of the entire domain, and then using knowledge of cache pollution techniques, you can then hijack the entire domain. This kind of thing basically puts the entire Internet at serious risk. Now, you would think that the authors of the above RFC would care about this kind of problem. And one of the authors (D. Karrenberg) is the head of the RIPE NCC, so he would be in an ideal position to do something about it. However, when I asked him, it didn't seem to bother him a bit that this was going on. Now there is hypocrisy and apathy for you, from the kind of guy you would think should care most about these kinds of problems. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 9:51:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D94537B419 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2PHo9r00348; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:50:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:47:10 +0100 To: Tim , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:00 AM -0600 2002/03/25, Tim wrote: > First, I am assuming that you serialize the administration > script (no parallel scripts going on). Big shops can't afford to do this. The locking has to be done at a lower level. > If primary/secondary has the exact same zones, then with djbdns it > looks like this: > > database -> ns1 > rsync ns1 ns2 Right. But rsync isn't a part of the DNS standard protocol. > I agree with your points. On the other hand, djbdns > solves a specific set of user needs very well (basically, those > that maintain n servers each of which containing the same zones). > I think it really depends on your needs. Sigh.... It looks like I'm going to have to publicly post my list of 18 things that I have found wrong so far with djbdns, as opposed to simply sending it privately to a few individuals. So be it: 1. By default, tinydns does not hand out referrals to questions it is asked about zones it does not control. I believe that this violates the spirt of the RFCs, if not the letter. 2. By default, tinydns does not support the use of TCP at all. This most definitely violates the spirt of the RFCs, as well as the letter (if a DNS query via UDP results in truncation, you're supposed to re-do the query using TCP instead). Indeed, if you want to support TCP under tinydns, you have to configure an optional program called "axfrdns", which was intended to handle zone transfers, but also happens to share the same database as tinydns, and can handle generic TCP queries. 3. The suggested method for copying contents of DNS zones is rsync, scp, or other remote copy tools. The DNS standard method of zone transfers (query type "axfr") is only supported as an additional, disrecommended method. 4. Without a patch from a third party, tinydns does not listen to more than one IP address. If you have a multi-homed server, you have to apply a patch from someone other than they author, before you can get it to listen on more than one address/interface. 5. Without a patch from a third party, tinydns does not support the standard "NOTIFY" protocol of informing secondary nameservers that the zone has been updated, and that they need to check the SOA serial number and download a new copy (if they don't already have it). 6. Without a third party patch, tinydns does not support standard SRV records (which are intended to ultimately replace MX records, as well as perform similar functions for services other than mail). 7. You cannot set an alternative SOA contact address (other than what is hard-coded within tinydns), if you do not have a patch from a third party. 8. Like tinydns, dnscache will not bind to more than one IP address without a third party patch. 9. Because they are separate programs, you can't have both tinydns and dnscache listening to the same IP address(es) on the same server. While this is not the recommended mode of configuration, some sites don't have the luxury of having separate authoritative-only and caching/recursive-only server(s), and need to mix them both on one machine (or set of machines). With the BIND 9 "view" mechanism, this is relatively easy to do. With djbdns, this is impossible. 10. There aren't even any patches that can get djbdns to implement TSIG, Dynamic DNS, or DNSSEC, nor are they ever likely to be created (my understanding is that the author is strongly opposed to them). Unfortunately, as time goes on and more and more people are doing things like IPv6, VPNs based on IPSec, or people just care about being able to cryptographically prove that their servers are handing out the only correct information and that the clients are able to cryptographically verify this fact (think: electronic banking), these kinds of features are going to become ever more commonplace. Note that, with the advent of BIND 9, you can create a caching-only server that will validate cryptographically signed records, and all clients can benefit even if they do not themselves implement any of the new DNSSEC features. 11. There are a number of things that djbdns does which I believe to be outright bugs. However, the author of this package simply refuses to accept that his code could be anything less than 100% perfect, and while he claims to have a "bounty" that he will pay for any bug that is found, in reality he is the one that gets to define what he accepts as a "bug", and has repeatedly demonstrated a tendancy to openly refuse to accept some purported bug, but then to quietly fix the code with future releases. So, let's look at some of these bugs: A. When an IQUERY is sent to a djbdns server, it will respond with opcode set to QUERY. (it should simply copy the opcode, not make something up). B. DNSCACHE (the caching server) does not respond to queries with the RD bit clear in the query. (Instead of simply answering from cache without recursing the dns-tree). 11. Unfortunately, there is very little documentation available for djbdns. Whereas for BIND you will discover at least four or five separate books directly related to BIND on Unix (and one for BIND on Windows NT), and at least sixteen different books that are related to the DNS in general (not including books where the DNS forms just a relatively small part of the whole), there are no books available on djbdns. If you're at a site all by yourself, and you don't have access to normal mailing lists, newsgroups, or other support services, then whatever books you can carry in with you are your last refuge of assistance. 12. Commercial support for djbdns is also questionable. Yes, there are a few groups listed at , but how big are they? How long have they been around? How likely are they to still be here in six months? How many combined decades of experience do they have in designing DNS protocols or programs to serve them? These are not the kinds of questions you need to ask when you go to the folks at Nominum (see ), since they wrote BIND 9 under contract to the ISC, and they have their own implementation of a nameserver (not based on BIND) which is used as the core of the Global Name Service solution that they offer. Indeed, the GNS is a singularly unique service that is not available anywhere else at any other company in the world, and even goes beyond the current technical implementation of a root nameserver or a gTLD nameserver. Note that Nominum also offers free secondary nameservice to anyone in the world through secondary.com (see ) for up to five domains and less than 100 records per person/organization, and they use the GNS to provide this service. If you're looking for BIND support in Europe, you can talk to Nominum, or you can look to the folks at Men & Mice (see ), who also have a service agreement with the ISC. 13. Training for djbdns is minimal or non-existent. Contrariwise, if you go to any major Unix or Linux conference in the world, they will probably have training available on BIND. In partnership with the ISC, the two official providers of training on DNS and BIND are Nominum (see ), and in Europe, both Nominum and the company Men & Mice (see ) provide training. In addition, there are other third-parties also providing training in the DNS, BIND, etc.... Quick searches at Google (see ) turned up Genesis Communication (see ), Intranet Solutions (see ), and VeriSign (see ). I'm sure there are plenty of others, these are just the ones I turned up with a trivial search and which I found to be of interest. Of course, note that Cricket Liu (one of the co-authors of the book _DNS and BIND_) recently left his previous employer (NSI/VeriSign), and is now employed by Men & Mice. He continues to work for them doing many of the same things he used to do before -- including providing training and consulting services, etc.... 14. One argument frequently used to support the use of djbdns over BIND is performance. Upon further investigation, this claim simply does not hold water. Benchmarks published by Rick Jones have clearly shown that BIND can scale up to at least 12,000 DNS queries per second, and there is every indication that BIND 9.2 will be able to go considerably higher. The best benchmarks available for tinydns indicate that it can handle at least 500 queries per second, but that is the highest number reported. Other people on the bind-users mailing list have indicated that they have performed their own (as yet unpublished) benchmarks of tinydns, and that it had notable performance problems that BIND did not suffer. The best published benchmarks from the author for dnscache report a query handling rate of less than one million records over a 4.5 hour period of time, which works out to an average of less than sixty-two queries per second. Even if you look at numbers of queries per CPU second, the best numbers they can provide are 13.7 million queries over a four week period of time with 128 minutes of CPU time used (an average of slightly less than 1784 queries per CPU second). Compare this with the requirement from RFC 2010 "Operational Criteria for Root Name Servers" (since obsoleted by RFC 2870 "Root Name Server Operational Requirements") is that the machine and software in question be able to handle at least 2000 queries per second, and be scalable to levels higher than that. Indeed, recent reports have indicated that a.root-servers.net (considered by many to be the "primary" root nameserver) is currently handling around 12,000 DNS queries per second at peak. Preliminary benchmarks published on the bind-users mailing list have indicated that, on the same hardware, there is little or no performance benefit to using dnscache as opposed to BIND 9.1.2, and when these tests are re-run with BIND 9.2, I'm sure that it will come out even faster. 15. One of the recommended features of dnscache is the ability to limit the amount of memory that the nameserver will use. If you attempt to go over this limit, the nameserver will start throwing away some old data, in order to fit the new data in. On the surface, this sounds like a good idea, and a way to avoid the problems you can get into if BIND ever starts paging and/or swapping. However, on further reflection, this is, at very best, a false economy. Let's take the case where an unexpected process starts chugging through a large log of a webserver, and it wants to do reverse DNS resolution on all those collected IP addresses. If these queries were aimed at your main caching nameserver, odds are that you probably would never again need the answers to these queries, at least not before they time out of the cache naturally. If the cache of this nameserver were relatively full of "real" data already, the problem is that this real data would be thrown away to make room for the new one-time-only queries. Even if a Least-Recently-Used (LRU) algorithm were employed to choose the answers that can best afford to be flushed (to make room for the new answers to be stored), there is a significant amount of overhead that the nameserver would have to go through in order to simply perform the garbage-collection and memory flushing routines. Since an LRU algorithm probably won't be used, the overhead of garbage collection and memory flushing would be much, much greater -- and everything else the server does will suffer. This also greatly increases the probability that a query will be performed that would otherwise have been in the cache, except for the fact that it was flushed to make room for new answers, thus resulting in data thrashing. Indeed, it is swap thrashing that was the intended goal to avoid, but local disk typically has a latency measured in terms of single digit milliseconds. Contrariwise, DNS queries that have to go out to the Internet and come back are frequently measured in terms of tens, hundreds, or even thousands of milliseconds. Therefore, you will have traded a known serious problem with local swap thrashing for an unknown and quite probably much, much more serious remote data thrashing. Moreover, once you get yourself into a thrashing scenario like this, odds are that it will be at least as bad and unrecoverable as it would be to have had BIND doing local swap thrashing. No, it is much better to have a known problem such as local swap thrashing that is relatively easily detected with tools like ps, top, vmstat, iostat, sar, etc... than it is to have a mysterious slow nameserver problem that you cannot easily detect, debug, or resolve. 16. Unfortunately, a lot of the reasons the author gives for running djbdns instead of BIND are related to problems in older versions of BIND which have been fixed or are largely non-issues in later releases of BIND 9. For example, he makes a big point of tinydns being better than BIND, because while the process is starting up, it still answers queries. While previous versions of BIND would not answer queries during startup, this is no longer a problem with BIND 9. Dan also makes a great deal of the fact that the djbdns tools run as a user other than root, and in chroot() environments. While the "monolithic setuid root" situation was an issue with older versions of BIND, even more recent releases of BIND 8 could be easily run as a non-priviledged user in a chroot() environment, and this is the preferred method of running BIND 9. Contrariwise, one of the legitimate big complaints about older versions of BIND is that they implemented zone transfers in a separate program. If the database was large, then the fork()/exec() overhead was large, and the system could seriously thrash itself to death as it copied all those pages (for systems without copy-on-write), only to immediately throw them away again when it fired up the named-xfer program. With BIND 9, this problem is solved by having a separate thread inside the server handling zone transfers, and no fork()/exec() is done. However, tinydns/axfrdns goes back to the fork()/exec() model that was so greatly despised. 17. The license under which the djbdns collection (and other programs from the author) are published does not meet the definition of "open source", according to the book _Open Sources_ (see ). You may not care about this issue, but some people do. If you do care about this issue, then this may be very important to you. Certainly, the ability to legally make modifications to the code is fairly important in this arena, and if you can't legally do so, then it is much less useful to you to have the source code at all. 18. Finally, I want to touch on the subject of the trustworthiness of the code itself. One of the basic concepts of the Open Source movement is that, as the number of people participating in the project grows, and as the collected design & implementation experience of those people grows, and the number of sites running the software grows, and the number of different types of hardware running the software grows, then your probability of rapidly discovering bugs (and being able to fix them) quickly approaches 100%, even for the deepest bugs in the system. Unfortunately, the djbdns programs are all large enough, and dependant on enough system libraries, that they simply cannot be proven to be bug-free. Once you reach this level of project size, other factors start being more important than keeping down absolute code size of the individual units. In the case of djbdns, they have a relatively small community of developers who are not all that experienced, a relatively small number of sites that are running the software, and the software is running on a relatively small sample of different types of hardware. They just don't have enough aggregate CPU time spent executing each and every line of code, and enough decades of combined DNS protocol design experience that they can begin to compare with BIND 9. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 10: 7:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA38F37B41F for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25796 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:13:44 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325114426.01e0bdf8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:47:32 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: ntpd configuration In-Reply-To: <20020324212309.1833ffa7.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> <20020322200120.D17681@rain.macguire.net> <20020323033242.31E383F29@bast.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:23 PM 3/24/2002, Paul Murphy wrote: > If time is out of sync by more than a certain amount (1000s) ntpd > refuses to sync. Perhaps this was your problem. Maybe, but I wouldn't think the time could get out of sync that fast. I did start out getting the correct time with ntpdate, and within a few hours my clock was about seven minutes slow. I did notice that Dan Langille's ntp.conf had multiple server lines in it, so I'm trying that in my file as well to see if it helps. By the way, how often does ntpd update the time by default? << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 10:30:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp011.mail.yahoo.com (smtp011.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 948A037B42A for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgeine (AUTH login) at adsl-63-198-133-39.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (HELO edinburgh) (sgeine@63.198.133.39) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2002 18:29:12 -0000 Reply-To: From: "Jesse Geddis" To: Cc: "Jarrod Sayers" , "FreeBSD-STABLE" Subject: RE: attempted exploits Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:29:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20020325192547.A70216@freebie.xs4all.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org /sigh heaven forbid something light hearted slips through. I didn't mean to upset the MAIL LIST POLICE, wilko lol. seems sometimes some forget what /dev/null is for and instead of putting what they don't want to see there they instead go out of their way with this sort of thing. I hope you find other things to do with your time my friend =) -----Original Message----- From: Wilko Bulte [mailto:wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl] Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:26 AM To: Jesse Geddis Cc: Jarrod Sayers; FreeBSD-STABLE Subject: Re: attempted exploits On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 10:24:08AM -0800, Jesse Geddis wrote: What in heavens name does this have to do with FreeBSD -stable????? Followups to -chat (or /dev/null) Wilko > wow, this is nuts. getting it from 5 hosts on the same B now lol. > seems to propagate quite well. I read through the CERT advisory. seems > like a well written worm with many points of access. certainly fills > my log files. I feel sorry for all the NT users who have to deal with > MS timetable for patches lol > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jarrod Sayers > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 9:58 PM > To: 'sgeine@yahoo.com'; FreeBSD-STABLE > Subject: RE: attempted exploits > > > Welcome back Nimda! We have noticed a sharp rise in the number of > attacks > starting over the weekend here. > > Jarrod Sayers > Information Technology Services Unit > University of South Australia, Magill Campus. > Phone: +61 8 8302 4809 > http://people.unisa.edu.au/jarrod.sayers > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jesse Geddis [mailto:sgeine@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 4:23 PM > > To: FreeBSD-STABLE > > Subject: attempted exploits > > > > > > wow, this person is quite effective. they've been trying this since > > this morning 4mins after i got my web server up. been doing it every > > half hour for 7 hours lol. trying to execute arbitrary Windows code > on > > a FreeBSD server! > > > > [Sun Mar 24 20:41:55 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/scripts/..Á../winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 20:42:05 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/scripts/..À¯../winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 20:42:10 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/scripts/..Á../winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 20:42:29 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/scripts/..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:11 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/scripts/root.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:12 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/MSADC/root.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:13 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/c/winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:14 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/d/winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:15 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: /archive/www/cia/scripts/..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:17 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: > > > /archive/www/cia/_vti_bin/..%5c../..%5c../..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.e > > xe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:19 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: > > > /archive/www/cia/_mem_bin/..%5c../..%5c../..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.e > > xe > > [Sun Mar 24 21:13:20 2002] [error] [client 63.198.148.139] File does > > not exist: > > > /archive/www/cia/msadc/..%5c../..%5c../..%5c/..Á../..Á../..Á../winnt/s > > ystem32 > > /cmd.exe > > > > Jesse Geddis > > > > > > > > "My fellow Americans, I've signed legislation that will outlaw > Russia > > forever. We begin bombing in five minutes." > > --Ronald Reagan > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message ---end of quoted text--- -- | / o / /_ _ wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, the Netherlands _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 10:34: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5644237B417; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2PIXgK70443; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:33:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:33:42 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Jesse Geddis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jarrod Sayers , FreeBSD-STABLE Subject: Re: attempted exploits Message-ID: <20020325193342.E70216@freebie.xs4all.nl> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020325192547.A70216@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from sgeine@yahoo.com on Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 10:29:12AM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 10:29:12AM -0800, Jesse Geddis wrote: > /sigh heaven forbid something light hearted slips through. I didn't > mean to upset the MAIL LIST POLICE, wilko lol. seems sometimes some > forget what /dev/null is for and instead of putting what they don't > want to see there they instead go out of their way with this sort of > thing. I hope you find other things to do with your time my friend =) If you care to find out what I'm doing in the project you will find out that I have indeed better things to do. -- | / o / /_ _ |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 10:38: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C6537B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g2P7rB970525; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:53:11 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:53:11 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] Message-ID: <20020325075310.F30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/QKKmeG/X/bPShih" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:58:41AM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --/QKKmeG/X/bPShih Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:58:41AM -0600, Chip Morton wrote: > Konqueror is=20 > sweet, but it still doesn't display *all* the pages I visit the way they= =20 > were meant to be seen. This may be your problem. There is no one way pages "were meant to be seen." Any page design that makes that assumption is inherently broken. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --/QKKmeG/X/bPShih Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjye12YACgkQk6gHZCw343WV7ACfeuH8f6vBcJUMmhiD32NAFlNa Um0AoI2c1zTO5/Id/GOXQF+/tlSIQggF =5Q3v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/QKKmeG/X/bPShih-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 10:41:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71A837B417; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2PIfWK23049; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:41:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11760; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:41:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C9F6F22.55FDE81D@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:40:34 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Browsers [Was: Advocacy help for CS professor] References: <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <20020325075310.F30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not every is meant to be taken to literally. Part of the difficulty in the English language, but I'm just not sure he meant it as literal as you read it. Eric Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:58:41AM -0600, Chip Morton wrote: > > Konqueror is > > sweet, but it still doesn't display *all* the pages I visit the way they > > were meant to be seen. > > This may be your problem. There is no one way pages "were meant to be > seen." > > Any page design that makes that assumption is inherently broken. > > N > -- > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) > FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) > \/ \ ^ > --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/_) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 11: 3:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AA437B4A4 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15738 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:07:46 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325121319.01e12c28@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:01:05 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: handheld web browsers In-Reply-To: <15518.38943.907647.117841@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324125937.019edf00@threespace.com> <3C9E11B7.F36170B8@centtech.com> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324182324.01ba1400@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:23 PM 3/24/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Well, first of all you could do what I did--get a PocketPC and taa-daa, > > you've got Internet Explorer in your pocket. :-) > >Just curious, but how complete is it? Java, JavaScript, Frames, CSL, >SSL, etc? And what do you use on the FreeBSD side of things? Frames and tables seem to work okay given the obvious limitations of screen size. All the JavaScript I've seen seems to choke the browser pretty bad. SSL works fine. I haven't yet tried to install the add-on Java module, so I can't comment on it. But otherwise it will *try* to render any page thrown at it, with the expected difficulties rendering wide pages. I'm wondering how the Linux-based Sharp Zaurus stacks up as a PDA. On FreeBSD, my browser of choice is Konqueror. I know Opera has been a personal favorite of many on this list, but I haven't been able to get it to work reliably. But I still do most of my browsing using IE6. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 11:15: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D2137B4B0; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 476D25346; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:14:17 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat , phk@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ntpd configuration References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> <20020322200120.D17681@rain.macguire.net> <20020323033242.31E383F29@bast.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325114426.01e0bdf8@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Mar 2002 20:14:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325114426.01e0bdf8@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > I did notice that Dan Langille's ntp.conf had multiple server lines in > it, so I'm trying that in my file as well to see if it helps. Using multiple servers allows ntpd to compensate for network artifacts etc. (such as assymetric routing) that are specific to any one server. It doesn't give you perfect time but does help reduce the margin of error. > By the > way, how often does ntpd update the time by default? It tries to measure your computer's clock drift relative to the server(s) and passes those measurements on to the kernel so it can compensate for the measured drift, so it should not "update the time" per se except at startup, unless the hardware clock is too erratic. Check your logs; ntpd will issue a message whenever it needs to actually step the clock (rather than just skewing it), as well as when it gives up trying to keep your clock accurate (which it most likely did if your clock got as far as seven minutes off). I've Cc:ed Poul-Henning as he knows way more about this than I do. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 12:10: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDE937B405 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2PK9Qp1082751; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:09:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ntpd configuration In-Reply-To: Your message of "25 Mar 2002 20:14:16 +0100." Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:09:26 +0100 Message-ID: <82750.1017086966@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >Chip Morton writes: >> I did notice that Dan Langille's ntp.conf had multiple server lines in >> it, so I'm trying that in my file as well to see if it helps. > >Using multiple servers allows ntpd to compensate for network artifacts >etc. (such as assymetric routing) that are specific to any one server. >It doesn't give you perfect time but does help reduce the margin of >error. Three servers allows your computer to declare one of them a liar, five gives plenty choice. More than five and it will change its mind too often. Try to find three servers nearby (in network terms, use traceroute) which use different source technologies, for instance one GPS, one DCF77 and one WWV or similar. If you have many computers, set up your own stratum 2 servers and synchronize your clients to them. >> way, how often does ntpd update the time by default? It autoadjusts from 64 seconds to 1024 seconds normally, you can make it go as long as 18 hours for special configs. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 13:39:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net (100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net [24.234.0.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFCB37B421 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin (cm003.28.234.24.lvcm.com [24.234.28.3]) by 100m.mpr200-2.esr.lvcm.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with SMTP id ABN48712; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:38:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001701c1d445$8a2d96c0$6600a8c0@penguin> From: "Taylor Dondich" To: Subject: Got a new server, installing FreeBSD on it Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:39:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Welp, got a Dell PowerEdge 500SC. It's got IDE hdd's, so the SCSI problems I've heard about shouldn't affect me. Everything in here is pretty standard. I hope everything works out okay. Anyone heard of any problems with this model of server and FreeBSD? Taylor Dondich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 14:28:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64D2C37B692 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25025 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:30:31 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325160158.01e10960@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:06:33 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Got a new server, installing FreeBSD on it In-Reply-To: <001701c1d445$8a2d96c0$6600a8c0@penguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The only hardware that has given me any problem with my FreeBSD installations are network cards and video cards. The network cards didn't cause a problem--they usually just weren't supported and didn't work. And some video cards have given me headaches in trying to install XFree86, which is more of an issue with XFree86 than FreeBSD, but it's a very fuzzy line when you're stuck for hours. Even when the cards did work, getting the right linemode/clock settings can be a big, fat PITA. Hopefully your experience will be better. << Chip Morton >> At 03:39 PM 3/25/2002, Taylor Dondich wrote: >Welp, got a Dell PowerEdge 500SC. It's got IDE hdd's, so the SCSI problems >I've heard about shouldn't affect me. Everything in here is pretty >standard. I hope everything works out okay. Anyone heard of any problems >with this model of server and FreeBSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 14:30:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD2E37B6AA for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25078 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:30:32 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325162124.01ee4130@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:23:43 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: ntpd configuration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks PHK and DES for the ntpd info. I'm going to keep toying with it to see if I can find something that works for my FreeBSD system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 15:16:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CAD8D37B400 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30909 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Mar 2002 23:16:12 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:16:12 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020325231612.GA30696@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 06:47:10PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > First, I am assuming that you serialize the administration > > script (no parallel scripts going on). > > Big shops can't afford to do this. The locking has to be done at > a lower level. Errr, you are going to have to lock/order the update of the named.conf (or its included) file at some point. If you are already doing that, you could very well lock/order the update of your tinydns updates. Depending on your needs, one is easier than the other. > > If primary/secondary has the exact same zones, then with djbdns it > > looks like this: > > > > database -> ns1 > > rsync ns1 ns2 > > Right. But rsync isn't a part of the DNS standard protocol. So what? What DNS protocol allows you to kick/restart the secondary bind server to tell it new zones are available? > > I agree with your points. On the other hand, djbdns > > solves a specific set of user needs very well (basically, those > > that maintain n servers each of which containing the same zones). > > I think it really depends on your needs. > > Sigh.... It looks like I'm going to have to publicly post my > list of 18 things that I have found wrong so far with djbdns, as > opposed to simply sending it privately to a few individuals. So be > it: You make a lot of good points in your list but I'm already aware of most of them. Personally I think if you trim down your list to about 8 points you'd have a LOT more credibility. I'll leave it to somebody else more familiar with dns to answer your issues (although I am unaware of any djbdns expert hanging around in -chat). Once again, it depends on your needs. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 15:21:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3187737B419 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0459.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.204] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pdlw-0000OX-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:21:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:20:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim wrote: > First, I am assuming that you serialize the administration > script (no parallel scripts going on). No. Database updates are atomic at the record level, and derived data is a snapshot of a collection of records. So the record is not there, it's there and it's old, or it's there and it's new. This means that you can treat any record creation/update as if it happened either before or after the derivation, and the derived state is always consistent. If you couldn't do parallel updating, there'd really be no reason to use a database instead of a big honking file lock. > If primary/secondary has the exact same zones, then with djbdns it > looks like this: > > database -> ns1 > rsync ns1 ns2 > > ns2 will always be consistent with ns1 (guaranteed by rsync and > filesystem semantics) if rsync is triggered after ns1 update. > > I agree it's more complex, from the administrative script side, if > they don't have the exact same zones. The hierarchy must be enforced > on the administrative script side. There are man problems with this. The first is that the assumption of the primary and secondary machines having the same zones. In the stealth primary configuration, this is not the case, because having the primary and the secondary be identical is not adequate to do load splitting, only load sharing. For example, say I have 30,000 domains, to pick a small number. My load has reached the point that I want to divide it up, since the load on a signel machine is too high. So I break it into 3 pieces, and I have 3 secondary servers, and one primary. Let's call these pieces (A,B,C) of 10,000 records each. Let's call my primary p and my secondaries (q,r,s). I now distribute my load; the result is: p (A,B,C) 30,000 records q (A,B) 20,000 records r (B,C) 20,000 records s (A,C) 20,000 records Using this approach, I can scale to any number of records, maintain redundancy in perpetuity, and limit the load on every machine. If the primary is not in the rotation for answering user requests directly, then it can handle a much higher load. The second problem with this is that it assumes that the firewall administration will allow a firewall hole for the rsync operation. In general, firewall holes are only made when they have to be, and any hole has to have incredible justification. Any machine that can be contacted through such a hole has to be, at best, in a DMZ, with two more firewalls between it and the corporate network. Even assuming you can get permission for the firewall hole for rsync (you won't be able to; the protocol has not gone through the vetting process, and neither has the software), you have a 3 month wait. There's actually an entire infrastructure which has grown up around getting through firewalls without the cooperation of the firewall administrators: it's called "XML". 8-). The third and final problem here is that this form of replication is still subject to the negative caching problem with the update latency, because the servers do not maintain a hierarchical relationship. Thus, if you have a domain delegation to your DNS servers, and one of the DNS servers doesn't know about it, it's not going to forward the request to a server which is updated earlier (the primary) when it can't find the record locally. > I agree with your points. On the other hand, djbdns > solves a specific set of user needs very well (basically, those > that maintain n servers each of which containing the same zones). > I think it really depends on your needs. Sure. If you are a small user, and aren't responsible for a large chunk of the Internet, and you don't have to worry about scalability, and don't have service availability issues, then djbdns is OK. All of the top level DNS servers (the servers for "." and the servers for the "in-adder.arpa.", "com.", "net.", etc. delegations from "." run bind. Form that perspective along, you are taking your career in your hands if you run anything else, should an interoperability issue pop up. Frankly, risking my career on my own skills and knowledge is no real risk (IMO, of course); I do it daily. Risking it on the interoperability of software I haven't personaly burned a lot of time on, though doesn't seem quite sane. And risking it on software where I *know* there is going to be introduced update windows is quite insane. 8-). > Thanks for the clarification. No problem. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 15:41:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3A937B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0459.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.204] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pe3C-000729-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:38:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9FB4FA.6956C219@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:38:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Taylor Dondich , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <3C9F1EF6.CB28EDD7@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: [ ... Per domain mail queues ... ] > > If you do wedge them in, then on an ETRN/ATRN, you are > > guaranteed a 100% hit rate on queue messages, instead of > > just the percentage of the main queue of the messages for > > a particular domain. > > Indeed, that is a problem. And if you get 50-60 ETRN requests > per second (as our business-class mail server was getting), this > causes untold amounts of unholy hell. With them in place, we handled as much email as Best Internet's primary list server handled in a month in just under 48 hours, on one 166 MHz dual processor PPC box (our test box), with 10,000 virtual domains, 5,000 using ETRN/ATRN, and 5,000 acting as "queue-only" only in the case of an outage of the primary mail server for the domain. That's over half a million 10k messages every 24 hours. We believed that our final deployment would scale at 50,000 virtual domains per node, all using ETRN/ATRN. At that point, it was all about FS latency, which was much lower on a journalled FS with btree directory structure than it would be on FreeBSD. Gotta love sendmail... 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 15:43:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep4.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB2037B400 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.upton.net (d141-18-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.18.230]) by fep4.cogeco.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A815463A for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:43:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:43:24 -0500 From: Paul Murphy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ntpd configuration Message-Id: <20020325184324.31318483.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325114426.01e0bdf8@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> <20020322200120.D17681@rain.macguire.net> <20020323033242.31E383F29@bast.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324112056.0199b938@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325114426.01e0bdf8@threespace.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=.llJ.lYCep5oy,P" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=.llJ.lYCep5oy,P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:47:32 -0600 Chip Morton wrote: > At 08:23 PM 3/24/2002, Paul Murphy wrote: > > If time is out of sync by more than a certain amount (1000s) ntpd > > refuses to sync. Perhaps this was your problem. > > Maybe, but I wouldn't think the time could get out of sync that fast. I > did start out getting the correct time with ntpdate, and within a few hours > my clock was about seven minutes slow. > One of my boxes had a big problem keeping time, I had to adjust the sysctl machdep.tsc_freq (don't remember how I figured out the value, it was a long time ago and I haven't touched it since, maybe in questions@ archive) p.s. Your mail server hates me, bounced my mail to you as SPAM :( -- Cogeco ergo sum --=.llJ.lYCep5oy,P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8n7YjumQc9BC5jBMRAh85AJsEOPYfSlcb7AWvKDE3ax9PwF8gugCfZCuq yteSx61eeOblcfmSN5aai4E= =f3p+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.llJ.lYCep5oy,P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 15:46:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5FB6D37B41B for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31421 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Mar 2002 23:45:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:45:04 -0600 From: Tim To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020325234504.GA31239@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:20:43PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > First, I am assuming that you serialize the administration > > script (no parallel scripts going on). > > No. Database updates are atomic at the record level, and > derived data is a snapshot of a collection of records. So > the record is not there, it's there and it's old, or it's > there and it's new. I understand that. What happens if: database -> ns1 somebody mucks with the database (updates a serial # for zone for example) database -> ns2 From your previous description, I had assume that it was important for you to have consistency between ns1 and ns2 (and ns2 never has newer information than ns1). > This means that you can treat any record creation/update as > if it happened either before or after the derivation, and > the derived state is always consistent. > > If you couldn't do parallel updating, there'd really be no > reason to use a database instead of a big honking file lock. I am talking about serializing updates of named.conf in ns1 and ns2. > There are man problems with this. The first is that the > assumption of the primary and secondary machines having the > same zones. No argument there. > The third and final problem here is that this form of > replication is still subject to the negative caching > problem with the update latency, because the servers do > not maintain a hierarchical relationship. Thus, if you > have a domain delegation to your DNS servers, and one of > the DNS servers doesn't know about it, it's not going to > forward the request to a server which is updated earlier > (the primary) when it can't find the record locally. OK you got me on this point. That's a scenario I had not realized. > All of the top level DNS servers (the servers for "." and the > servers for the "in-adder.arpa.", "com.", "net.", etc. > delegations from "." run bind. > Form that perspective along, > you are taking your career in your hands if you run anything > else, should an interoperability issue pop up. Hey no arguments there. There is a reason I buy Cisco. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 16:17:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A29837B400 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0459.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.204] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16peeU-0007jS-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9FBE01.DE7FFFB4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> <20020325234504.GA31239@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim wrote: > On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:20:43PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > First, I am assuming that you serialize the administration > > > script (no parallel scripts going on). > > > > No. Database updates are atomic at the record level, and > > derived data is a snapshot of a collection of records. So > > the record is not there, it's there and it's old, or it's > > there and it's new. > > I understand that. What happens if: > > database -> ns1 > somebody mucks with the database (updates a serial # for zone for example) > database -> ns2 > > From your previous description, I had assume that it was important > for you to have consistency between ns1 and ns2 (and ns2 never has > newer information than ns1). No. If NS2 has a zone definition that NS1 doesn't have, it's a newly created zone, and there is a requirement for an update from NS1, since NS2 only knows about the existance in the zone. The serial number in both cases is generated data. In the initial create case in the secondary, it's "1". In the case of the primary, it's "generation number". After the transfer on the secondary, it's whatever was on the primary. It's not necessary to maintain teh consistency across the update window for newly created zones. Specifically, it's OK if the secondary contains an empty record that simply means that it is a secondary, and a zone transfer from the primary is needed. The issue is that there is an update window. If I miss the update window on the primary, I'm not going to be able to hit it again for the update interval on the primary anyway, at which time the data is re-derived (DNSUPDAT to the primary fixes that, actually, but I did not use it in the design cited). The failure is safe because of the automatic replication of data from the primary to the secondary. We can actually consider that the ordering of updates is only to ensure the availability of DNS records within some minimum time after instantiation in the database. In fact, we could really update in any order, and the only effect would be to widen the maximum update latency window X from X to (2X-1). This is an artifact of the forwarding of unknown requests to the primary when the secondary is listed as authroitative and has no record. > > This means that you can treat any record creation/update as > > if it happened either before or after the derivation, and > > the derived state is always consistent. > > > > If you couldn't do parallel updating, there'd really be no > > reason to use a database instead of a big honking file lock. > > I am talking about serializing updates of named.conf in ns1 and ns2. They are serialized by a timing window, but by nothing else. Due to the hierarchical relationships, all I need to do is delay the secondary updates by this window from the primary. The secondaries themselves can update concurrently. So for ns1, ns2,...nsN, the ns1 update has to occur first, but all other updates can occur concurrently (in fact, this is preferred). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 16:33:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D542B37B416 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0459.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.204] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16petO-0000Pt-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:32:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9FC19E.9BAC6FB8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:32:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> <20020325234504.GA31239@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FBE01.DE7FFFB4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > It's not necessary to maintain teh consistency across the update > window for newly created zones. Specifically, it's OK if the > secondary contains an empty record that simply means that it is > a secondary, and a zone transfer from the primary is needed. > > The issue is that there is an update window. If I miss the update > window on the primary, I'm not going to be able to hit it again for > the update interval on the primary anyway, at which time the data is > re-derived (DNSUPDAT to the primary fixes that, actually, but I did > not use it in the design cited). > > The failure is safe because of the automatic replication of > data from the primary to the secondary. It occurs to me that it's not obvious from this discussion so far what I meant about the number of lines of code in the earlier discussion of using DNSUPDAT to do zone creation on the secondary. The primary issue in the number of lines of code in the earlier discussion was not to establish the security association, which can actually be done rather trivially; instead it was because the DNSNOT notification for a newly created zone via DNSUPDAT would need to result in a creation without a preexisting contact between the servers, to cover the case wehre the secondary delegation is to a transiently connected server on the customer premesis (these days, "DSL" qualifies as a transient connection, from my personal experience with a large customer base). The problem is that these things are UDP, and you have an order of operation issue that you have to resolve, without introducing a stall in the DNSUDAT of the primary. Basically, if you have a primary, and you set up a zone that designates a secondary, and the secondary is unaware of its responsibility at the time of the zone creation, then you need to notify the secondary in a way that it trusts that it is now secondary for the delegation. At the same time, you need to make sure that the not just anyone can elect you a secondary for their zone by being their own primary and then pointing at you, so you have to have a security association. The djbdns method of achieving this result is to move the complexity to some out of band mechanism involving per scripts, rdist, and a human being (that last component is the one with the lowest MTBF 8-)), and it still leaves the update of an active server to a reload operation, instead of an update. Realize that a fully distributed DNSUDAT mechanism capable of zone creation in both primary and secondary server resolves all race windows in a way that a manually replicated set of primaries could never hope to do. As usual, the work will happen eventually (but not now). Until then, we have to close the race windows with overlap, rather than with elimination. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 21:18:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DD537B400 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13644; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:18:40 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325221745.00d16cc0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:18:31 -0700 To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: [burnscharlesn@hotmail.com: Advocacy help for CS professor] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324181553.01baa6b0@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020324142509.00cdfd20@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020324105234.0199cda8@threespace.com> <20020322191703.3E9D237B400@hub.freebsd.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020322013138.A87120@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:21 PM 3/24/2002, Chip Morton wrote: >Hmm, never knew that would work. Does anybody have any actual experience doing that? Not personally, but I've seen it running. There are apparently some dependencies that need to be satisfied before it works. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 22:27:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BFC37B405 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2Q6RMr04110; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:27:24 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020325231612.GA30696@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020325231612.GA30696@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 06:55:38 +0100 To: Tim , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:16 PM -0600 2002/03/25, Tim wrote: > Errr, you are going to have to lock/order the update of the > named.conf (or its included) file at some point. Yes, but this could be using fine-grained locking on the sending side, as opposed to serializing all updates through a single person. You could even batch them, so that updates happen in the database asynchronously with their being pushed out to the servers. > So what? What DNS protocol allows you to kick/restart the secondary > bind server to tell it new zones are available? I believe that the protocol is called "NOTIFY". -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 22:27:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E670E37B41A for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2Q6RRr04194; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:27:27 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C9FB4FA.6956C219@mindspring.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <3C9F1EF6.CB28EDD7@mindspring.com> <3C9FB4FA.6956C219@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:04:45 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Taylor Dondich , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:38 PM -0800 2002/03/25, Terry Lambert wrote: > With them in place, we handled as much email as Best Internet's > primary list server handled in a month in just under 48 hours, > on one 166 MHz dual processor PPC box (our test box), with > 10,000 virtual domains, 5,000 using ETRN/ATRN, and 5,000 > acting as "queue-only" only in the case of an outage of the > primary mail server for the domain. That's over half a million > 10k messages every 24 hours. We had much the same situation with our "business" SMTP server, handling roughly 40,000 120KB messages per day. Of course, a smaller number of larger messages is easier to handle (less synchronous meta-data overhead), but on the other hand I had not yet configured the server to have a mail queue per domain. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 25 23:10:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3286337B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5554 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Mar 2002 07:10:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:10:42 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020326071042.GA5337@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020325231612.GA30696@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 06:55:38AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:16 PM -0600 2002/03/25, Tim wrote: > > > Errr, you are going to have to lock/order the update of the > > named.conf (or its included) file at some point. > > Yes, but this could be using fine-grained locking on the sending > side, as opposed to serializing all updates through a single person. > You could even batch them, so that updates happen in the database > asynchronously with their being pushed out to the servers. Nothing in tinydns prevents you from doing that. Many people generate data.cdb directly from the database. All my discussion is with respective to Terry's points, which is how to propagate from master to slave in a consistent manner. > > So what? What DNS protocol allows you to kick/restart the secondary > > bind server to tell it new zones are available? > > I believe that the protocol is called "NOTIFY". Unless I am missing something, that only helps with zone CHANGES. It does not help with new zones. I understand there are out-of-band mechanisms to deal with with zone creations from master -> secondary. That was essentially why Terry gave detailed explainations in his previous email. If you want further discussion, feel free to take it to the djbdns mailing list. There are many people there much more knowledge than me. I have a lot of respect for Terry's points but frankly, you have shown very little real argument (you could still be right - you just made some very silly points). Like for example, it occurred to me that dnscache/tinydns doesn't even use tcpserver so I don't know what your previous rant was about. Neither does either use fork(). Most of your arguments are the same by people who argue for Microsoft (i.e. ease of configuration, established support - never mind that tinydns is but a year or so old, etc). That said, I have no loyalty towards djbdns, qmail, or any other piece of software for that matter. I use what suits my needs at the moment. Bind works better for you - great. Just don't spread misinformation about other pieces of software because you have disdain for the author. Once again, if you narrow down your 18 point list to about 8, you'll be taken more seriously. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 0:55:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6AA37B400 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0107.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.107] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pmjb-0006DQ-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:55:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA0375C.35E7F3D1@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:54:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Tim , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020325231612.GA30696@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:16 PM -0600 2002/03/25, Tim wrote: > > So what? What DNS protocol allows you to kick/restart the secondary > > bind server to tell it new zones are available? > > I believe that the protocol is called "NOTIFY". Trick question. DNSNOT doesn't work for new zones, since they have to be explicitly configured in secondaries... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 2:36:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB5B37B405 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2QAZpD02367; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:35:51 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020326071042.GA5337@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020325231612.GA30696@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020326071042.GA5337@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:29:10 +0100 To: Tim , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:10 AM -0600 2002/03/26, Tim wrote: > Bind works better for you - > great. Just don't spread misinformation about other pieces of software > because you have disdain for the author. If I have made any factual errors, I welcome your corrections. > Once again, if you narrow > down your 18 point list to about 8, you'll be taken more seriously. I'm sorry. If I see a hundred things wrong with a particular system, I see no reason why all hundred should not be listed. If people can't deal with the level of information provided, that's their problem. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 2:52: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (ns2.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E4DB237B400 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8093 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Mar 2002 10:51:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 04:51:55 -0600 From: Tim To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020326105155.GA7902@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> <20020325234504.GA31239@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FBE01.DE7FFFB4@mindspring.com> <3C9FC19E.9BAC6FB8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C9FC19E.9BAC6FB8@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am responding to two of your posts together. On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:17:05PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > We can actually consider that the ordering of updates is only > to ensure the availability of DNS records within some minimum > time after instantiation in the database. In fact, we could > really update in any order, and the only effect would be to > widen the maximum update latency window X from X to (2X-1). > This is an artifact of the forwarding of unknown requests to > the primary when the secondary is listed as authroitative and > has no record. This last sentence was the main part I had not considered. I could see that in your particular design that was a very important feature. On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:32:30PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > It occurs to me that it's not obvious from this discussion so > far what I meant about the number of lines of code in the earlier > discussion of using DNSUPDAT to do zone creation on the secondary. Well I got that part fine. > to a transiently connected server on the customer premesis (these > days, "DSL" qualifies as a transient connection, from my personal > experience with a large customer base). I can agree with that just from my own personal DSL connection! > The djbdns method of achieving this result is to move the > complexity to some out of band mechanism involving per scripts, > rdist, and a human being (that last component is the one with > the lowest MTBF 8-)). Hmm, if you say "or a human being" I'd agree with you. There's nothing in djbdns that prevents you from automating these things. I think it's easier to say that djbdns is INCOMPLETE when it comes to these scenarios than to say there is something inherently wrong with its design (and don't confuse design with features - I understand djbdns still lack many features most of which Brad had pointed out). DNSNOT does not technically have to be part of the DNS server, for example. It could be a separate program. > and it still leaves the update of an > active server to a reload operation, instead of an update. Yes and no. Because of the design of cdb, every update could be considered a reload but you don't really have the penalties associated with a reload. The reload is essentially a rename() system call. cdb() opens/closes on each data serving so actually there is nearly zero penalty that I can think of, other than however long it might have taken to generate the new cdb file. If you have a huge zone file this could be an issue on a remote link - it's certainly not as clean as sending just an empty named.conf file, but you don't have to worry about the complexity of reloading the named.conf with bind either (I know this was back in the older days, but I always thought it was silly that the "recommended" way of running bind was to run it in a tight loop in a sh script just in case it crashes). Now, I also know that you understand filesystem semantics better than most so I am prepared to be englightened again. > Realize that a fully distributed DNSUDAT mechanism capable of zone > creation in both primary and secondary server resolves all race > windows in a way that a manually replicated set of primaries could > never hope to do. Absolutely. What I don't understand is why would you say that this could not be done with djbdns? Again, I think djbdns is incomplete in these type of scenarios, but one could design add on services, without modification to djbdns code, that achieve many of these goals. If you look at djbdns as a small tool in the overall scheme, I don't see anything wrong with it. If you want a tool or a suite of tools that'll do everything, then djbdns is very obviously not the way to go. I have always considered djb programs to be a set of starter tools that one could built upon. That's why I was puzzled when Brad insists it wasn't modular. I do very much agree that very often it lacks features that one wants by default, but I am continually surprised but what one could do with djb tools with a little thought. Thanks, Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 3: 1:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721F837B416 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 03:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6916A5346; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:01:21 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Got a new server, installing FreeBSD on it References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325160158.01e10960@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Mar 2002 12:01:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325160158.01e10960@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > The network cards didn't cause a problem--they usually just weren't > supported and didn't work. And some video cards have given me > headaches in trying to install XFree86, which is more of an issue with > XFree86 than FreeBSD, but it's a very fuzzy line when you're stuck for > hours. Even when the cards did work, getting the right linemode/clock > settings can be a big, fat PITA. Hopefully your experience will be > better. Network cards shouldn't be a problem, except for Cardbus PC-Cards, which aren't supported in -STABLE. What cards did you have trouble with? As for video cards, XFree86 4 almost always gets them right (use X --configure to generate a skeleton config), the only problem is (usually) to get the sync ranges right if your monitor isn't PnP; but even that is a breeze if you have the manual. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 8: 6: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB94D37B432 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2QG62K21974 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10178 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3CA09C2E.718A993F@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:05:02 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: 802.11a wireless in FreeBSD? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know if any progress is being made in the 802.11a arena? If it is, who might be working on it? Just curious. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 11:55:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85CB37B421 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0210.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.210] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16px2i-0005Ql-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:55:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA0D227.3511A2C4@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:55:19 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> <20020325234504.GA31239@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FBE01.DE7FFFB4@mindspring.com> <3C9FC19E.9BAC6FB8@mindspring.com> <20020326105155.GA7902@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim wrote: > > The djbdns method of achieving this result is to move the > > complexity to some out of band mechanism involving per scripts, > > rdist, and a human being (that last component is the one with > > the lowest MTBF 8-)). > > Hmm, if you say "or a human being" I'd agree with you. There's > nothing in djbdns that prevents you from automating these things. > I think it's easier to say that djbdns is INCOMPLETE when it comes to > these scenarios than to say there is something inherently wrong with > its design (and don't confuse design with features - I understand > djbdns still lack many features most of which Brad had pointed out). > DNSNOT does not technically have to be part of the DNS server, > for example. It could be a separate program. If this were the case, then it would be non-interoperable, unless you specifically dedicated a VIP to the task; the problem is that you'd have to bind multiple programs to the same port/IP pair. About the only way you could do this would be to use the BPF, as seperate programs don't allow for the idea of a MUX based on the query type within the packet. This is considered a security feature of djbdns. One way to deal with this might be to use the SRV records for differentiated service types to move the DNS server components themselves to a different port. There are two problems with this scenario: o There is no official support for this via the RFC process defining differential service types for DNS (this is easily overcome). o There is an intentional failure to support SRV within djbdns (this is not easily overcome).. Another way to deal with this would be local forwarding of unknown request types. This might be possible, but would need modification of the djbdns. It's also a case of the intentional failure to support, so doing this could have an adverse effect on the security model of djbdns, as well. > > and it still leaves the update of an > > active server to a reload operation, instead of an update. > > Yes and no. Because of the design of cdb, every update could be > considered a reload but you don't really have the penalties associated > with a reload. The reload is essentially a rename() system call. > cdb() opens/closes on each data serving so actually there is nearly > zero penalty that I can think of, other than however long it might > have taken to generate the new cdb file. If you have a huge zone > file this could be an issue on a remote link - it's certainly not as > clean as sending just an empty named.conf file, but you don't have > to worry about the complexity of reloading the named.conf with bind > either (I know this was back in the older days, but I always thought > it was silly that the "recommended" way of running bind was to run > it in a tight loop in a sh script just in case it crashes). > > Now, I also know that you understand filesystem semantics better than > most so I am prepared to be englightened again. The overhead is predominantly in the system call processing; the open/read/close is threee sets of protection domain crossings. There is also file system semantic overhead (as you imply) in the close operation. The Single UNIX Specification has relaxed many of the "SHALL be updated" semantics into "SHALL be marked for update" semantics. This lets an FS compliant with the SUS2 and non-compliant with POSIX (e.g. almost any log-structured FS in use today) make a number of semantic shortcuts which take away much overhead. But... in the case of the close semantics, items maked for update are required to be updated on final close, and so you eat the full overhead, even if you play fast and lose with the POSIX compliance and comply with the lesser semantics of the SUS2. Overall, opening and closing a file each time is a very bad thing, performance-wise, even though it resolves a number of ordering issues. > > Realize that a fully distributed DNSUDAT mechanism capable of zone > > creation in both primary and secondary server resolves all race > > windows in a way that a manually replicated set of primaries could > > never hope to do. > > Absolutely. What I don't understand is why would you say that this > could not be done with djbdns? Again, I think djbdns is incomplete > in these type of scenarios, but one could design add on services, > without modification to djbdns code, that achieve many of these goals. > If you look at djbdns as a small tool in the overall scheme, I don't > see anything wrong with it. If you want a tool or a suite of tools > that'll do everything, then djbdns is very obviously not the way to go. I think we are back to the port/IP pair conflict for listens for incoming requests. The djbdns really can't support an overall framework without modification. > I have always considered djb programs to be a set of starter tools > that one could built upon. That's why I was puzzled when Brad insists > it wasn't modular. I do very much agree that very often it lacks > features that one wants by default, but I am continually surprised > but what one could do with djb tools with a little thought. As implementations, they are somewhat easier to understand,if you can get around the coding style, which make them good examples of minimal implementations, as long as you are aware of the inherent limitations they have with respect to the RFCs, up front. They would be a lot more useful as an educational tool, if there was accompanying documentation that explained those limitations up front. For deployment, especially large systems deployment, where your ability to sell in place of a competitor comes as a result of service availability and turnaround time, I think that djbdns can not be a first choice. The ISC implementation (bind) has historically been more prone to security problems; on the other hand, I think these have been addressed in bind 9: the original code was not intended for a deployment into an actively hostile network environment, while the new code is. There's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 12: 7:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A706A37B416 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0210.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.210] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxDj-00052d-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:07:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA0D4D2.A6E7326B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:06:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 802.11a wireless in FreeBSD? References: <3CA09C2E.718A993F@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > Does anyone know if any progress is being made in the 802.11a arena? If it is, > who might be working on it? Just curious. Do you mean by vendors, or do you mean for FreeBSD drivers? I believe several of the 802.11b drivers work with 802.11a devices, and there was at least one 802.11a specific driver that was posted about (check the -current archives). As far as vendors go, there's not a lot of progress. It's rather like BlueTooth: IBM pushes the heck out of it, but neglects to build it into the ThinkPad laptops, the Palm PDAs, or the Lexmark printers that it itself manufactures. It's a good idea -- for everyone else to do first -- it seems. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 12:22:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5674E37B419 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16394 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Mar 2002 20:22:21 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:22:21 -0600 From: Tim To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020326202221.GA16201@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FB0CB.C1C0CD89@mindspring.com> <20020325234504.GA31239@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9FBE01.DE7FFFB4@mindspring.com> <3C9FC19E.9BAC6FB8@mindspring.com> <20020326105155.GA7902@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3CA0D227.3511A2C4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CA0D227.3511A2C4@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If this were the case, then it would be non-interoperable, unless > you specifically dedicated a VIP to the task; the problem is that > you'd have to bind multiple programs to the same port/IP pair. > About the only way you could do this would be to use the BPF, as > seperate programs don't allow for the idea of a MUX based on the > query type within the packet. This is considered a security > feature of djbdns. Yes I agree this is a design limitation. I always figure djb would one day write a mux in front of all his *dns programs or figure out another way. Maybe not. ;-) > But... > in the case of the close semantics, items maked for update are > required to be updated on final close, and so you eat the full > overhead, even if you play fast and lose with the POSIX compliance > and comply with the lesser semantics of the SUS2. > Overall, opening and closing a file each time is a very bad thing, > performance-wise, even though it resolves a number of ordering > issues. Hmm, I always thought cdb is operating under these principles: 1) the file is never updated (so close() shouldn't be too costly, if at all. You certainly understand under the hood better than I on this) 2) the rename() operation occurs fairly infrequently (i.e. once every minute or 5 minutes at most). 3) the OS is reasonably smart about caching the file so repeatedly open(), 2 seeks(), 1 read(), and close() is relatively lightweight. So I would not have guessed close() is a big problem. > I think we are back to the port/IP pair conflict for listens for > incoming requests. The djbdns really can't support an overall > framework without modification. I am in full agreement here and the rest of your e-mail. Tim > As implementations, they are somewhat easier to understand,if you > can get around the coding style, which make them good examples of > minimal implementations, as long as you are aware of the inherent > limitations they have with respect to the RFCs, up front. They > would be a lot more useful as an educational tool, if there was > accompanying documentation that explained those limitations up > front. > > For deployment, especially large systems deployment, where your > ability to sell in place of a competitor comes as a result of > service availability and turnaround time, I think that djbdns can > not be a first choice. > > The ISC implementation (bind) has historically been more prone to > security problems; on the other hand, I think these have been > addressed in bind 9: the original code was not intended for a > deployment into an actively hostile network environment, while > the new code is. There's no reason to throw the baby out with > the bathwater. > > -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 12:30:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from math.uic.edu (neumann.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 788F237B405 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3598 invoked by uid 31415); 26 Mar 2002 20:29:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:29:57 -0600 From: Vladimir Egorin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:12:46AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:12:46AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > I've been on IETF mailing lists with him, and his attitude is > always that he is always right (by definition) and everyone else is > always wrong (by definition). He insists on replying to each and > every mail message posted to the list, and constantly dredging up old > points that everyone else has agreed were dead a long, long, long > time ago. > > He will reply to messages that are not anywhere near remotely > related to his favourite topic, quote some random line that is least > unlike the straw-man position that he wants to destroy, and then go > off on a multi-page rant. > > He considers himself to be God's gift to programming, security, > Internet mail, DNS, cryptography, and anything else he cares to > decide to screw around with, and woe betide anyone who ever disagrees > with his world-view -- even if that world-view changes and you used > to be his most vocal supporter. > > > The problem is that he is generally totally fscking clueless (at > least on all the topics with which I am familiar), and his > whacked-out ideas of how things should be done are non-solutions to > non-problems, and he simply doesn't understand what the real problems > are. Brad, You are making a very general statement. Such statements are usually blind and unfair. I won't comment on Prof. Bernstein's abilities as a programmer or his character, but in the areas of his direct expertise (mathematics) he is very good. I am saying this as his former colleague and student. -- Vladimir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 12:42:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from math.uic.edu (neumann.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5487237B400 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3750 invoked by uid 31415); 26 Mar 2002 20:42:21 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:42:21 -0600 From: Vladimir Egorin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020326144220.B3519@math.uic.edu> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020324195712.B360@rain.macguire.net> <20020324201401.A41079@llama.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020324201401.A41079@llama.com>; from the@llama.com on Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:14:01PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:14:01PM -0800, Sam Habash wrote: > On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 07:57:12PM -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > > [ ... lengthy, humerous missive about djb in a nutshell here ... ] > > > > Brad, you have put this more eloquently than I ever could have, and you > > couldn't be more correct. Thank You. =) > > > > Now I'm just counting the seconds until DJB suddenly appears on the list to > > rebutt you and defend his dearest reputation against those who would sully > > such a fine person... > > We may get our wish, sooner than we may like. > > Quoting from "http://cr.yp.to": > > "The cr.yp.to servers are located in the Department of Mathematics, > Statistics, and Computer Science at the University of Illinois at > Chicago. > > DNS service, HTTP/FTP service, and mail service are powered by djbdns, > publicfile, and qmail respectively. > > The machines were running OpenBSD for some time, but they are being > switched to FreeBSD. " > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ FreeBSD is what most of our machines run. Just for the record, among other reasons, we've also considered Dan's advice to use FreeBSD when we dumped Linux a couple of years ago. -- Vladimir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 26 13:49:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF3837B417 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2QLmVD02387; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:48:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:44:26 +0100 To: Vladimir Egorin , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:29 PM -0600 2002/03/26, Vladimir Egorin wrote: > > The problem is that he is generally totally fscking clueless (at > > least on all the topics with which I am familiar), and his > > whacked-out ideas of how things should be done are non-solutions to > > non-problems, and he simply doesn't understand what the real problems > > are. > > Brad, > > You are making a very general statement. Such statements are usually > blind and unfair. I won't comment on Prof. Bernstein's abilities as > a programmer or his character, but in the areas of his direct expertise > (mathematics) he is very good. I am saying this as his former > colleague and student. Please note that I added a parenthetical comment "at least on all topics with which I am familiar". I do not profess to be an expert in cryptography, although it is a subject with which I have some interest. I do not pretend to be able to analyze Snuffle or any other cryptographic work that he has done, but I can read the writings of other respected cryptographers (such as Bruce Schneier). Specifically in the areas of Internet e-mail (especially the SMTP protocol) and DNS, it is my firm belief that Dan is one of the biggest menaces on the 'net, and he, his ideas, his code, and his disciples pose a direct threat to the very existence of the 'net -- it all depends on how many people he tricks into becoming his initiates. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 6:12:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC45D37B419 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16491 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:18:59 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326214528.01de06e0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:33:17 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Got a new server, installing FreeBSD on it In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325160158.01e10960@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325160158.01e10960@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:01 AM 3/26/2002, you wrote: >Network cards shouldn't be a problem, except for Cardbus PC-Cards, >which aren't supported in -STABLE. What cards did you have trouble >with? > >As for video cards, XFree86 4 almost always gets them right (use X >--configure to generate a skeleton config), the only problem is >(usually) to get the sync ranges right if your monitor isn't PnP; but >even that is a breeze if you have the manual. To be fair, my troubles with FreeBSD hardware compatibility were largely in the pre-3.0-RELEASE days. I had some quirky ISA cards--a network card, a sound card with an attachment for a proprietary CD-ROM--that were difficult to configure under Windows; getting them to work in FreeBSD was out of the question. When I got to the point that I started purchasing my own hardware components, everything was chosen to be FreeBSD-compatible from the outset. So I didn't encounter any difficulties after that, partly because FreeBSD supported more hardware, but partly because I paid more attention to compatibility up front. Nowadays it seems that most major vendors' cards are supported in both network and video. PCI has eased a lot of the pain of ISA. Plug-and-Play has made everyone's life much easier. But I would still check the compatibility lists before I threw FreeBSD/XFree86 at my cutting-edge hardware. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 8:13:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B5637B404 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ppp407.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.218.153]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA32380 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:13:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203271613.LAA32380@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Paul C. Boyle" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking for EZ-CD Creator work-a-like. Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:14:22 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, is there software that compares to or more freature rich than EZ-CD Creator, for FreeBSD. I've looked in the ports collection and searched freshports.org but I am coming up blank. Paul... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 8:15:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C022737B416 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RGFrK25607; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:15:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14097; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:15:53 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3CA1EFFB.C4BEFB7B@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:14:51 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul C. Boyle" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for EZ-CD Creator work-a-like. References: <200203271613.LAA32380@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are few GUI cd burning apps, but mkisofs and cdrecord together can do pretty much anything ez cd creator can (except maybe video cd stuff). Eric "Paul C. Boyle" wrote: > > Hi, is there software that compares to or more freature rich than EZ-CD > Creator, for FreeBSD. > I've looked in the ports collection and searched freshports.org but I am > coming up blank. > Paul... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 9:36:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D32737B404 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RHadu96910; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:36:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:36:38 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Eric Anderson Cc: "Paul C. Boyle" , Subject: Re: Looking for EZ-CD Creator work-a-like. In-Reply-To: <3CA1EFFB.C4BEFB7B@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20020327093532.A96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > There are few GUI cd burning apps, but mkisofs and cdrecord together can do > pretty much anything ez cd creator can (except maybe video cd stuff). mkisofs can do video cd stuff. cdrecord is for scsi cdroms, but distributed in the base system is "burncd". this really is an email for freebsd-questions, not -chat. please take it there next time. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 13: 1:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magellan.palisadesys.com (magellan.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA9137B419 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mira (mira.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.116]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by magellan.palisadesys.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RL0Gw22620 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128 bits) verified NO); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:00:16 -0600 From: "Guy Helmer" To: , , "Warner Losh" Subject: RE: Introducing... me... yay Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:01:05 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20020327215246.A32026@freebie.xs4all.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:53 PM Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 01:49:29PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > In message > > Robert Watson writes: > > : I think it ends up being a lot more like 1.25"x2.5". No doubt someone > > : will correct me with the real number. This falls into the category of > > > > Not quite. A 2x4 is 2" x 4" when it is rough cut, less 1/8" for the > > saw blade kerf (which is split between two boards). When it is smooth > > finished, another 1/8" all around the board are planes off. In the > > end a 2x4 that you get at the local hardware store is 1 5/8" by 3 5/8" > > > > I've started seeing that some "stud grade" 2x4s are even a little > > smaller than this, no doubt someone wanting to make an extra buck off > > the tree. Also, thin kerf saw blades have replaced the thick ones, so > > one could easliy produce a thin planed 2x4 that was 1 7/8 x 3 7/8", > > but since the standard size for the end product is smaller, some > > Here speaketh the Home Depot fanatic.. This thread certainly beats reading the flame fest of the day[0]! Guy (who has hauled and installed 250+ 2x4's from Lowes into his basement over the past two months) [0] Redirected to chat to avoid starting yet another flame war :-( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 13: 7:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817A937B417; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9564BD7C; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05536; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:06:55 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2RL5cW74658; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /home is full... it's mounted under / Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020327002527.2D5AF48425@wastegate.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:05:38 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020327002527.2D5AF48425@wastegate.net> Message-ID: Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > >It seems /home is actually /usr/home. > It seems "usr" doesn't stand for Unix System Resources now. It seems that it would be better to not confuse the issues of seldom-changing, standard directory trees with often-changing partitioning (necessarily having size and disk considerations). The OS installer should be fixed to provide the means to control the placement of the directory trees on both default and custom partitions so as to avoid the confusion. (No, I don't have fix; just chatting.) And by default, the installer should do something like this: -- Have partitions mounted like this: swap as-is, or debate new algorithm. / Usually 100 MB (?), but smaller for tiny disks. /u Everything else; the name is arbitrary but easily typed. (Maybe "/mnt" would make sense, but it's too long.) -- Have empty directories, /u/{usr,home,var,tmp}, for use in case a big partition isn't mounted on /u/. -- Have links /usr -> u/usr /home -> u/home /var -> u/var /tmp -> u/tmp -- I'd probably fudge the standard and have this too: /local -> u/local /usr/local -> /u/local People would have to learn not to use "u" in pathnames (except in a few links as above) so that new partitions could be mounted at / after replacing the link with an empty directory or so links could be changed, as for two trees sharing a new partition: /var -> t/home /tmp -> t/tmp As it is, directory tree "usr" does confusing double-duty as big-partition "u", except that making /tmp -> usr/tmp combines /tmp and /usr/tmp (unless you use something like /tmp -> usr/tmp0) and things like "home" and "var" seem out of place. P.S. Maybe if "vinum" didn't have such a intimidating manual, I'd have discovered a cleaner solution (which avoided links?). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 13:14:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A8E37B419 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RLEKK03468; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:14:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22707; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:14:20 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3CA2362C.3DD49E58@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:14:20 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guy Helmer Cc: chat@freebsd.org, wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl, Warner Losh Subject: Re: Introducing... me... yay References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nothing to do with FreeBSD, but 2x4's are 1.5" x 3.5". If they weren't, my shed wouldn't be right at all. Eric Guy Helmer wrote: > > On Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:53 PM Wilko Bulte wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 01:49:29PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > In message > > > > Robert Watson writes: > > > : I think it ends up being a lot more like 1.25"x2.5". No doubt someone > > > : will correct me with the real number. This falls into the category of > > > > > > Not quite. A 2x4 is 2" x 4" when it is rough cut, less 1/8" for the > > > saw blade kerf (which is split between two boards). When it is smooth > > > finished, another 1/8" all around the board are planes off. In the > > > end a 2x4 that you get at the local hardware store is 1 5/8" by 3 5/8" > > > > > > I've started seeing that some "stud grade" 2x4s are even a little > > > smaller than this, no doubt someone wanting to make an extra buck off > > > the tree. Also, thin kerf saw blades have replaced the thick ones, so > > > one could easliy produce a thin planed 2x4 that was 1 7/8 x 3 7/8", > > > but since the standard size for the end product is smaller, some > > > > Here speaketh the Home Depot fanatic.. > > This thread certainly beats reading the flame fest of the day[0]! > > Guy (who has hauled and installed 250+ 2x4's from Lowes into his basement > over the past two months) > > [0] Redirected to chat to avoid starting yet another flame war :-( > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 14:18: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe100.pav0.hotmail.com [64.4.33.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9654937B404 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:18:04 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [63.230.77.181] Reply-To: "Seth Hieronymus" From: "Seth Hieronymus" To: Subject: processor question Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:18:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2002 22:18:04.0518 (UTC) FILETIME=[43CE8060:01C1D5DD] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do processors use more power / produce more heat when they are doing processing other than an idle loop? Just wondering. Seth Hieronymus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 14:19:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B1D37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RMJLK05159; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:19:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24833; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:19:21 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3CA24569.AE393175@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:19:21 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Hieronymus Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: processor question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes. Seth Hieronymus wrote: > > Do processors use more power / produce more heat when they are doing > processing other than an idle loop? > > Just wondering. > > Seth Hieronymus > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 14:36:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1034A37B435 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0142.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.142] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qM0M-0004gg-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:34:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA248F6.3ACA39B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:34:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Hieronymus Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: processor question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seth Hieronymus wrote: > Do processors use more power / produce more heat when they are doing > processing other than an idle loop? > > Just wondering. Depends on what happens in the idle loop. If the idle loop is a HLT or an ACPI reduction in the power settings on one or more devices, then yes, there is some reduction in the power used. The ACPI stuff is normally use when the machine is genuinely idle, rather than merely executing in the idle loop. Generally, the idle loops means that you have outstanding requests to hardware standing unstatisfied, and are waiting for an interrupt before you can do more work. Not all idle loops HLT the processor. The SMP stuff started out not HLTing the processor, do to SMP schedule lock holding issues. In genreal, the amount is going to be negligible, compared to the energy required to keep the hard drives or fans spinning. I always love to see the "Energy Star" logo come up on boot on my machines. It means that it took three times as much energy to manufacture them as they would have additioanlly used during their entire operational life, had they not been "Energy Star" -ified. I guess some people just like to pay extra for their electricity so that they can pay for it up front. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 18: 2:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 93FEF37B416 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11478 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Mar 2002 02:02:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:02:24 -0600 From: Tim To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html I'm going to attempt to stay out of the rest of this discussion. I know at least 3 people more knowledgeable than I reading this thread now. My father taught me to shutup when people who know better are present. ;-) Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 18:17:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341E437B400 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.apk.net (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with SMTP id g2S2Hq505461 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:17:52 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:17:56 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:12:46 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 4:02 PM +0000 2002/03/24, Andrew Boothman wrote: > >> I was interested about what you said about qmail and its author. >> I've recently started playing with qmail to investigate what mail >> server I prefer, but I agree that there is perhaps something a >> little strange about its author. I don't know what, perhaps its >> just that I find qmail.org such a weird site. > > The author of qmail is rightly considered to be one of the most=20 >whacked-out kooks on the 'net. Dan's definitely not RFC-compliant. :-)=20 > I've been on IETF mailing lists with him, and his attitude is=20 >always that he is always right (by definition) and everyone else is=20 >always wrong (by definition). He insists on replying to each and=20 Dan not only invented TCP/IP and the Internet, but he also invented Unix and Al Gore. I don't like Dan's personality and I find some of his ideas strange. But there seem to be some good ideas in there, and he does write pretty solid code. However.... :-) I saw a comment that Qmail doesn't work properly on Solaris. So, of course, Solaris is broken. And Qmail didn't work right with ReiserFS, so of course ReiserFS was broken. I also kind of picture Dan burning Weitse Venema dolls whenever there's a new moon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 18:45:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786B037B404 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.apk.net (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with SMTP id g2S2jg510822 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:45:42 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:45:47 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra in.macguire.net><3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net><20020323084327.A354@r ain.macguire.net><3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:11:42 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >need that last 1% it doesn't yet do. Moreover, postfix has the=20 >simplest configuration language that I have ever seen for any=20 >program, and the largest set of "sane but secure" defaults -- It is=20 >entirely possible to have a fully functional postfix installation=20 >where the entire configuration file is just two lines long. Agreed. >> beginning to start up a webhosting service with virtual domain = hosting with >> full e-mail services and qmail was frankly the only package out there= with >> the commitment and features that seemed close to my liking. I was = also >> looking at the other tools out there that I could slap on top of = qmail to >> make it more functional (vpopmail, sqwebmail, etc). > > Granted, there are a number of add-on features that have been=20 >created for qmail. I believe that it is possible to duplicate those=20 There are a lot of tempting add-ons, but when you start looking at them you find that it becomes a nightmare. 95 different patches from different places and who knows when one patch will break another one and where the fingers get pointed in blame. Some of the add-on authors also have strange ideas about how to do things. (Courier is pretty weird, for example.) > > However, this is the real power of the Unix "toolbox" philosophy=20 >-- you can put the tools together that you want, in most any way you=20 >want, making the result do just about whatever you want.=20 >Unfortunately, Dan breaks this philosophy by tightly integrating all=20 >his tools together, and making it so that they are all=20 >interdependent. For example, you can't use the standard inetd that=20 I seem to remember running qmail behind inetd a few years back. I don't remember how well it worked or what was needed to get it to work though. > If qmail does everything you need and does it in a way that you=20 >can comprehend, then you would be pretty foolish to just throw all=20 >that away because of personality issues with the author. I decided to play with qmail and djbdns on one box, although I run postfix on my other machines. They're small and lightweight, and (once you figure out the method behind the madness) they're pretty easy to configure and maintain. Tcpserver is arguably less complex than inetd and tcpwrappers. Other people don't like inetd as evidenced by replacements for it. Supervise has some interesting features. That whole /package thing is pretty bizarre though. I think Dan wasn't taking his medicine when he cooked that one up. What do we run on our production boxes? Sendmail and BIND, tcpwrappers and inetd. :-) Use what works well for you and move on to the next task. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 18:47: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EF037B405 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10974 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:53:35 -0500 Message-Id: <200203280253.VAA10974@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chip Morton Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Anybody using KMail? Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:46:36 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anybody know how I can get my messages to display using Courier (or some other monospaced font) rather than Helvetica? Thanks, Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 18:48:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9587337B419 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12748 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Mar 2002 02:48:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:48:44 -0600 From: Tim To: Stuart Krivis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328024844.GA12709@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:45:47PM -0500, Stuart Krivis wrote: > Use what works well for you and move on to the next task. That's what 99% of us do. The other 1% writes brilliant software or bitches about other people doing it. ;-) Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 19:14:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7774F37B416 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0516.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.200.6] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qQMn-0000uA-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:14:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA28A78.D73ECDEB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:14:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim wrote: > Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least > point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html Where is the page that linked to this page, please? I'd like to see who else is (in)famous... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 19:29:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77C437B400 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2S3T5x17487; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:29:07 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:25:06 +0100 To: Tim , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:02 PM -0600 2002/03/27, Tim wrote: > Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least > point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html Given the lies we've seen from Dan in the past, I won't bother to waste my time with this page. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 20: 2:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3A137B419 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2E16E239A14; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:02:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:02:50 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: processor question Message-ID: <20020328040250.GB507@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3CA248F6.3ACA39B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cmJC7u66zC7hs+87" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CA248F6.3ACA39B@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-03-27 14:34 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: >=20 > I always love to see the "Energy Star" logo come up on boot on > my machines. It means that it took three times as much energy > to manufacture them as they would have additioanlly used during > their entire operational life, had they not been "Energy Star" > -ified. I guess some people just like to pay extra for their > electricity so that they can pay for it up front. Terry, Could you explain why Energy Star certified machines take thrice as much energy to manufacture? I've never heard about that. Thanks. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@zer0.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life.=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8opXqIBUx1YRd/t0RAleaAJ9bVNy2f1OQLVdG3Nwi3Wt5P6jMBQCfSs6N cmmbbCQh3z+7fz+3EXxZ//w= =CYSG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 20:39:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D89637B416; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4053F2D; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:38:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:39:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: FreshPorts beta site Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020328043846.9B4053F2D@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreshPorts is soon to get a face-lift. The beta site is at http://test.freshports.org/ and the main change is the ability to upload the output pkg_info to maintain your watch list. Also, the full commit messages are recorded (previously, it was only the first line). Compare with http://FreshPorts.org/. I'm going to run that site for a few more and then transfer over the existing user database before going into production. Please read the FAQ for more info. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 20:52:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8454837B417 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from max ([24.61.57.241]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020328045226.EFGY2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@max> for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:52:26 +0000 Message-ID: <200203272352310200.0781223B@mail.attbi.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: jdarnold@buddydog.org From: "Jonathan Arnold" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: My FreeBSD Journal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've started a FreeBSD weblog, to celebrate getting Apache up and running on my FreeBSD machine. It is going to be a journal of my travels in FreeBSD land, and I hope you find it interesting and entertaining. Let me know what you think! http://jdarnld.tzo.com/FreeBSD -- Jonathan Arnold (mailto:jdarnold@buddydog.org) Amazing Developments http://www.buddydog.org A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. --Joseph Campbell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 20:54:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125B937B448 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from max ([24.61.57.241]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020328045401.ZCUU2626.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@max> for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:54:01 +0000 Message-ID: <200203272354060577.078296CC@mail.attbi.com> In-Reply-To: <200203272352310200.0781223B@mail.attbi.com> References: <200203272352310200.0781223B@mail.attbi.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:54:06 -0500 Reply-To: jdarnold@buddydog.org From: "Jonathan Arnold" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My FreeBSD Journal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I've started a FreeBSD weblog, to celebrate getting Apache up and Nice job on the typo. The link should be: http://jdarnold.tzo.com/FreeBSD Doh! -- Jonathan Arnold (mailto:jdarnold@buddydog.org) Amazing Developments http://www.buddydog.org A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. --Joseph Campbell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 22: 3:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AAFD37B404 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14814 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Mar 2002 06:03:26 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:03:26 -0600 From: Tim To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328060326.GA14740@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3CA28A78.D73ECDEB@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CA28A78.D73ECDEB@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have no idea. I am unaware of any index. Had I known the history between Dan and Brad, I would've stayed out of the conversation altogether. ;-) Tim On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 07:14:00PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Tim wrote: > > Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least > > point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html > > Where is the page that linked to this page, please? I'd like > to see who else is (in)famous... > > -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 22:57:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240C737B499 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD918BD1F; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17255; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:57:26 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2S6u6681761; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Seth Hieronymus" Cc: Subject: Re: processor question References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Mar 2002 22:56:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3h663hi3jt.63h@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Seth Hieronymus" writes: > Do processors use more power / produce more heat when they are doing > processing other than an idle loop? Current-day processors use an extra bit of power every time the state of one of the millions of gizmos (groups of a few transistors) on the chip changes. There are a few parts of the chip that are always changing at a fixed rate (ie, the clock parts) but other parts (floating point and integer sub-processors, registers, etc) have gizmo-state-changing happening a lot or a little, depending on what is being computed, and most (?) processors can be configured to shut down most sections of the chip into a kind of "hold" state during idle, or not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 23:21:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3571D37B496 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0073.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.73] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qUD0-0000vD-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:20:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA2C428.CFFDAA97@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:20:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Tim , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:02 PM -0600 2002/03/27, Tim wrote: > > Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least > > point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html > > Given the lies we've seen from Dan in the past, I won't bother to > waste my time with this page. I still want to know where the link came from. I also want to know how it is you can slander against a program or other object which is not a legal entity like a person or a corporation. ;^). But I'll save asking that for later... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 23:38:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D7637B417 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA03311 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 02:45:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200203280745.CAA03311@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chip Morton Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: mouse wheel in XFree86 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 02:37:33 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, since nobody could comment on KMail, lemme ask this one...how can I get the wheel of my mouse to work under XFree86? I'm running KDE and FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE if it matters. Thanks, Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 23:38:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A7B37B404 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0073.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.73] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qUUF-0005V7-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:38:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA2C856.7CAB35DA@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:37:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: processor question References: <3CA248F6.3ACA39B@mindspring.com> <20020328040250.GB507@klapaucius.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2002-03-27 14:34 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I always love to see the "Energy Star" logo come up on boot on > > my machines. It means that it took three times as much energy > > to manufacture them as they would have additioanlly used during > > their entire operational life, had they not been "Energy Star" > > -ified. I guess some people just like to pay extra for their > > electricity so that they can pay for it up front. > > Terry, > > Could you explain why Energy Star certified machines take thrice > as much energy to manufacture? I've never heard about that. > Thanks. To make more efficient hardware, you have to use different industrial processes. Among other things, it takes a comparatively much larger amount of water, and the purification process is much more elaborate. Ignoring the amount of additional pollution caused by the need for higher tolerances in processing, and the additional components for things like monitors so they can go into a "hibernate" mode, which takes more energy than if the thing were actually turned off, since the electronics have to monitor for signal suggenly appearing... The point in fact is that it takes more energy to produce an "Energy Star Compliant" piece of hardware than a non-compliant piece of hardware. Now factor in that the operational lifetime of a computer is on the order of two years... then if it takes more energy to make something compliant than it does to make a non-compliant version, AND the difference in energy consumption over the operation lifetime between the two is *less* than the additional amount of energy... it doesn't take a genius to do the math. Computers and home electronics are about a factor of 5 and 3, respectively, and it's taken a lot of work to get to those multipliers... before, they were even worse; the first "Energy Star Ally" products would have to have operational lifetimes on the order of 2 or 3 centuries. It's only *very recently* that we've been able to break even on things like clothes dryers, and the rate of improvement has been slowing exponentially. When you talk about things like refridgerators, washing machines, and other appliances with much longer operational lifetimes, then the energy costs start to put it into the black again. The funny thing is that this whole thing is to try to reduce the overall pollution, but the overall pollution doesn't really go down: it's just visible at the manufacturing time, rather than at consumption time. So it's a net PR win. It's like paper vs. plastic bags in the supermarket: paper in fact does not biodegrade significantly in landiflls, because the microbes necessary to biodegrade double-walled plant cell based material are aerobic, and require air to function (this is why your top soil is only the top few feet, rather than going down a kilometer in some places, as you would expect if all processes could occur equally at any depth). On the other hand, the plastic used in the plastic bags you get at the grocery can be (and are) actively recycled into the plasciscine park and bus benches you see around. Plastic also degrades degrades significantly in sunlight (ever left a black garbage bag of leaves out in the sun for too long a period?)... but of course, so would wood-pulp based paper bags, if some idiot didn't bury them far enough down that normal processes couldn't operate on them. Another incredibly amusing "anti pollution" measure is oxygenated fuels. Any engine manufactured since 1981 has an oxygen sensor, so while oxygenated fuels work on behicles before 1981, they make vehicles after that kick out significantly more ozone, and drop their fuel mileage dsignifcantly, causing then to require more fuel. If you don't believe me, ask the University of Colorado. It's amazing what lemmings people are, isn't it? 8-). -- Terry "Johnny Horizon" Lambert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 23:49:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C77537B41F for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0073.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.73] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qUf7-0005Y9-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:49:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA2CAF7.5C661F1D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:49:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Seth Hieronymus , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processor question References: <3h663hi3jt.63h@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > "Seth Hieronymus" writes: > > Do processors use more power / produce more heat when they are doing > > processing other than an idle loop? > > Current-day processors use an extra bit of power every time the state of > one of the millions of gizmos (groups of a few transistors) on the chip > changes. There are a few parts of the chip that are always changing at > a fixed rate (ie, the clock parts) but other parts (floating point and > integer sub-processors, registers, etc) have gizmo-state-changing > happening a lot or a little, depending on what is being computed, and > most (?) processors can be configured to shut down most sections of the > chip into a kind of "hold" state during idle, or not. However, even if all operations in the processor were done in Gray's binary using thermodynamically reversible logic components, the amount of power used by the processor itself is insignificant compared to the amount used by the DRAM (which has to be refereshed when it's not actively being used -- and doesn't have to be when it is actively being used), and all the chips combined pale in comparison to the loss in the stepping transformers in the power supplies, and the magnetic induction motors that run the fans and keep the disk spindles spinning. If you are "lucky" enough to have hardware that is capable of spinning down the drives, bully for you... FreeBSD will spin the things up again because of the syncd, even if there's no real data to write, because not enough state is maintained to let them spin down (it's rare enough when my Windows boxes are idle enough, even when they are idle, to leave the drive spun down for very long; and spinning a drive up takes a lot more energy than keeping it spinning; real equipment (servers) leave the things spinning all the time, and don't try to spin them down). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 27 23:52:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C5B37B41A for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0073.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.73] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qUhk-0007Ij-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:52:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA2CB9A.21DFB770@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:51:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: mouse wheel in XFree86 References: <200203280745.CAA03311@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > Well, since nobody could comment on KMail, lemme ask this one...how can I get > the wheel of my mouse to work under XFree86? I'm running KDE and FreeBSD > 4.5-RELEASE if it matters. A wheel mouse is a 5 button mouse. Wheel up is button 4, and wheel down is button 5 (click of the scroll wheel is button 3). Bind these buttons to things like "scroll up" and scrill down", and don't lie to the X server and tell it you have less than 5 buttons, and everything should just work. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 1:19:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68D337B417 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 01:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.apk.net (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with SMTP id g2S9J9516276 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:19:10 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:19:17 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: <2615aukdfdd1o37jnfjoiu2hr2l5el0ppn@4ax.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@ra <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:46:30 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >> the qmail user community is more than sufficient for support. > > Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Just like C makes a perfectly good macro language. There _are_ quite a few zealots in the "qmail user community," but that's true of other groups too. Linux vs. FreeBSD anyone? >have given classes on DNS for the company Men & Mice, using material=20 >written by Cricket Liu (and I will be doing so again at SANE 2002).=20 Men & Mice has some neat stuff. I suppose I should also point out that BIND is the basis for several commercial products. (Cisco Network Registrar, Metainfo's MetaIP, and I believe also QIP that Lucent picked up. It's also part of Nixu Namesurfer. Men & Mice put it to good use too. :-) Postfix and Sendmail are also being used in a number of places. Qmail is not. (I think this is a licensing issue since Dan thinks he knows better than you how your filesystem should be laid out and is very restrictive about distributing binaries unless you toe that line.) >and qmail ranks below dog poop in my book. IMO, you would literally=20 >be better off flinging canine excrement than using qmail. I won't go quite _that_ far, but I can understand why you feel this way. > However, unless you are willing and able to function on this=20 >level, I doubt that there is anything you're likely to bring to this=20 >debate that I would find useful or interesting. Agreed. Those "Sendmail sucks and Qmail rulez d00d! responses don't do much for me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 1:31:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dire.bris.ac.uk (dire.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D50737B41A; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 01:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk by dire.bris.ac.uk with SMTP-PRIV with ESMTP; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:31:22 +0000 Received: from cmjg (helo=localhost) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 16qWFJ-0004TQ-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:31:01 +0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:31:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Jan Grant X-X-Sender: cmjg@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: /home is full... it's mounted under / In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Mar 2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > And by default, the installer should do something like this: ... > P.S. Maybe if "vinum" didn't have such a intimidating manual, I'd have > discovered a cleaner solution (which avoided links?). There are lots of gentle introductions to the ideas you commonly see in RAID systems. Maybe peruse (he said, picking one at random) docs.sun.com and look at the solstice disksuite stuff? I'm not joking; their overview documents start with "for dummies" and go from there. Then have another look at Greg's stuff when you feel enlightened. Reading around a subject can be really helpful - identifying similar concepts is part of the learning process. (That, and sun's doc style is very friendly - ie, double-spaced, unlike the dense defaults of man pages :-) ) -- jan grant, ILRT, University of Bristol. http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ Tel +44(0)117 9287088 Fax +44 (0)117 9287112 RFC822 jan.grant@bris.ac.uk __/\____/\_____/\____/|_____________________________________ flatline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 1:41:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C6037B417 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 01:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.apk.net (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with SMTP id g2S9f7519245 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:41:07 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:41:14 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020328024844.GA12709@sleepy.wojomedia.com> In-Reply-To: <20020328024844.GA12709@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:48:44 -0600, Tim wrote: >On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:45:47PM -0500, Stuart Krivis wrote: >> Use what works well for you and move on to the next task. > >That's what 99% of us do. The other 1% writes brilliant software or >bitches about other people doing it. ;-) Brilliant software? Re-inventing the wheel just for the sake of re-inventing is not brilliant. Requiring the world to conform to your ideas is not brilliant.=20 Just as an example, tcp wrappers is brilliant software. It does exactly what is needed and it also plugs right in to the way you were already doing things. Ssh was/is also brilliant software. Ditto for the shadow password suite.=20 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 1:48:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDB337B41A for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 01:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.apk.net (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with SMTP id g2S9mP520360 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:48:25 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:48:32 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> In-Reply-To: <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 05:52:07 -0600, Tim wrote: > >Brad could very much be right in the end. He just couldn't get >past his DJB hatre to provide any real merits in his argument (like >judging software base on ease of configuration and the size of the >configuration file - what was that all about?). I am not surprised, It sounded valid to me. I actually prefer software that is easy to configure and doesn't need 30 million statements in 19 different config files scattered all over. (And I'm not inferring that qmail is hard to configure or that it needs wildly complex config files.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 2:14: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28EE37B405 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 02:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.apk.net (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with SMTP id g2SAE3523850 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 05:14:03 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 05:14:11 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Reply-To: ipswitch@apk.net Message-ID: <16r5au4v5q7dt16ujaq7ps5nqsrkuspc9e@4ax.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020325015236.A97552@futuresouth.com> <3C9EFED0.DB176CB8@mindspring.com> <20020325115207.GA22032@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3C9F1A16.207EA23E@mindspring.com> <20020325140022.GA23251@sleepy.wojomedia.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:47:10 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > Sigh.... It looks like I'm going to have to publicly post my=20 >list of 18 things that I have found wrong so far with djbdns, as=20 >opposed to simply sending it privately to a few individuals. So be=20 >it: I'm glad that you did. It is very informative. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 4:26:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3AC37B417 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g2SCQ6M00114; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:26:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:26:06 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328042606.A31129@ehlke.net> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3CA2C428.CFFDAA97@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CA2C428.CFFDAA97@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:20:08PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:20:08PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I still want to know where the link came from. > Dan posted it to the djbdns mailing list. The response there has been... uhhh... predictable. -Pete -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 7:12:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A70937B416 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22051 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Mar 2002 15:12:24 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:12:24 -0600 From: Tim To: Stuart Krivis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328151224.GA21955@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <000c01c1d3ab$6d2c6960$6600a8c0@penguin> <20020328024844.GA12709@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I am not going to get into an argument about what constitutes brilliant software. If *you* think any piece of software is brilliant, good for you. I shall quote you: Use what works well for you and move on to the next task. Tim On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 04:41:14AM -0500, Stuart Krivis wrote: > On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:48:44 -0600, Tim > wrote: > > >On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:45:47PM -0500, Stuart Krivis wrote: > >> Use what works well for you and move on to the next task. > > > >That's what 99% of us do. The other 1% writes brilliant software or > >bitches about other people doing it. ;-) > > Brilliant software? Re-inventing the wheel just for the sake of > re-inventing is not brilliant. Requiring the world to conform to your > ideas is not brilliant. > > Just as an example, tcp wrappers is brilliant software. It does > exactly what is needed and it also plugs right in to the way you were > already doing things. Ssh was/is also brilliant software. Ditto for > the shadow password suite. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 7:19:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D07F37B41B for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from Rozinante mimerki@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [66.20.120.30] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:19:19 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Marcia Barrett Nice To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Anybody using KMail? Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:19:11 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200203280253.VAA10974@threespace.com> In-Reply-To: <200203280253.VAA10974@threespace.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02032810191102.73929@Rozinante> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Settings => Configuration => Appearance => Fonts You should have the option of changing the font in a couple of different areas, including message display. HTH Marci On Wednesday 27 March 2002 09:46 pm, Chip Morton wrote Anybody using KMail?: | Does anybody know how I can get my messages to display using Courier (or | some other monospaced font) rather than Helvetica? | | Thanks, | Chip Morton | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org | with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- So why, pray, sign anything as long as every word, letter, penstroke, paperspace is a perfect signature of its own? - James Joyce, Finnegans Wake To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 9: 7:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe77.pav0.hotmail.com [64.4.33.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A1637B41C for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:07:40 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [63.230.77.199] Reply-To: "Seth Hieronymus" From: "Seth Hieronymus" To: Cc: "Chip Morton" Subject: re: mouse wheel in XFree86 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:07:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2002 17:07:40.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[118E8980:01C1D67B] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Well, since nobody could comment on KMail, lemme ask this one...how can I get >the wheel of my mouse to work under XFree86? I'm running KDE and FreeBSD >4.5-RELEASE if it matters. > >Thanks, >Chip Morton If you are still looking, this helped me: http://www.freebsddiary.org/xfree86-4.php#wheel Seth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 9:46:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856F537B49C for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0250.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.250] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qdyV-0000Xm-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:46:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA356CE.675E6DE9@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:45:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Ehlke Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3CA2C428.CFFDAA97@mindspring.com> <20020328042606.A31129@ehlke.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:20:08PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > I still want to know where the link came from. > > > Dan posted it to the djbdns mailing list. The response there has been... > uhhh... predictable. Darn. I was hoping for a public rogue's gallery... defaced pictures, images of hanged effigies, that sort of thing. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 10:25:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECD137B417 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:25:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g2SIPM117997 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:25:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:25:22 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328102522.D8737@ehlke.net> References: <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <3CA2C428.CFFDAA97@mindspring.com> <20020328042606.A31129@ehlke.net> <3CA356CE.675E6DE9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CA356CE.675E6DE9@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 09:45:50AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 09:45:50AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Darn. I was hoping for a public rogue's gallery... defaced > pictures, images of hanged effigies, that sort of thing. 8-). > Heh. Dan's rogue's gallery is obfuscated and distributed. If you have an ftp client that can parse the obscene output that his ftp server generates, you might be able to find some of it by poking around his site. -Pete, proud to have been called an idiot by djb. -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 10:36:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BAE37B41A for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23832; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:35:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328113457.00b22100@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:35:36 -0700 To: anderson@centtech.com, Guy Helmer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Introducing... me... yay Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl, Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <3CA2362C.3DD49E58@centtech.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:14 PM 3/27/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: >Nothing to do with FreeBSD, but 2x4's are 1.5" x 3.5". If they weren't, >my shed >wouldn't be right at all. You're building a bikeshed? Hey, I have some pointers for you. ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 12:37:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7AF037B416 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-11-117-61.dial.proxad.net [62.147.117.61]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F1AAB42F for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:37:08 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 785 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Mar 2002 20:37:05 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:37:05 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Pete Ehlke Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020328102522.D8737@ehlke.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete Ehlke wrote: > > Darn. I was hoping for a public rogue's gallery... defaced > > pictures, images of hanged effigies, that sort of thing. 8-). > > > Heh. Dan's rogue's gallery is obfuscated and distributed. If you have an > ftp client that can parse the obscene output that his ftp server > generates, you might be able to find some of it by poking around his > site. I found the following: http://cr.yp.to/qmail/knowles.html (I assume the original comment here was tongue-in-cheek...) http://cr.yp.to/qmail/warfield.html http://cr.yp.to/qmail/jackson.html http://cr.yp.to/qmail/venema.html... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 12:56:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E956F37B41A for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16qgwC-0006FG-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:56:00 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:55:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) In-Reply-To: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/jackson.html DJB says "The largest Exim host is doing a mere 50000 deliveries per day." The publically available Exim users mailing list archives show a lot more. For example: "... we use an old SparcStation 20 to ship around 60,000 emails a day and according to the exim stats 98% of those are shipped in under a minute. The load average on the machine is next to nothing to the extent that I get paranoid if it ever approaches one." (<20000714095714.E17070@apple.ukc.ac.uk>) "... My server processes 50,000 to 100,000 messages a day and every one of those passes through a filter that currently contains 200 rules, mostly regex matches (checks for worms and viruses, scores potential spam, etc.) Server load hovers around 0.30 (FreeBSD, Pentium III 400MHz) with the odd "spike" to 1.0 or so." () "Under exim, I put about 5GB (bytes not bits) from one machine between 8pm and 9am. That is over one million outbound emails in 12 hours. You do the math. That is a lot of traffic and is on a small dual processor PIII with a single SCSI disk (no stripe for the spool). ..." (<396C78B5.4D54B104@cnds.jhu.edu>) (The same admin also says:) "... We deliver about 1.5 million message/day on any given machine. But, we don't push mail between 11am and 8pm (only 8pm to 11am)." There are many other documented. Someone should make a "DJB's slander (his word) against ..." Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 13:45: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EDD37B404 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6BF637597; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C821D94; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:47:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:47:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) In-Reply-To: <3CA356CE.675E6DE9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: :Pete Ehlke wrote: :> On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:20:08PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: :> > :> > I still want to know where the link came from. :> > :> Dan posted it to the djbdns mailing list. The response there has been... :> uhhh... predictable. : :Darn. I was hoping for a public rogue's gallery... defaced :pictures, images of hanged effigies, that sort of thing. 8-). Give him time. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 15:32:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8466637B41B for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a078.otenet.gr [212.205.215.78]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2SNWlg1002498; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:32:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2SNWkoo004338; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:32:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2SNE2aB004028; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:14:02 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:14:02 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020328231402.GB3763@hades.hell.gr> References: <3CA356CE.675E6DE9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-03-28 13:47, Jamie Bowden wrote: : On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: : :Darn. I was hoping for a public rogue's gallery... defaced : :pictures, images of hanged effigies, that sort of thing. 8-). : : Give him time. No, hell no. People with too much time in their hands tend to write code. /me ducks and runs - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 16:39:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECAE37B428 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2T0bUD22976; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:37:30 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:24:00 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Pete Ehlke From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:37 PM +0100 2002/03/28, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I found the following: > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/knowles.html (I assume the original comment here > was tongue-in-cheek...) > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/warfield.html > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/jackson.html > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/venema.html... Cool! I rank up there with Wietse? Excellent! -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 18:53: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D7E4237B405 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2766 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Mar 2002 02:53:02 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:53:02 -0600 From: Tim To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020329025302.GA2581@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is very dated. It says "[qmail] Version 1.00 will be freely distributable." 1.03 was released in 1998, I believe. For those that care, Dan hasn't updated this page recently. He did take Terry's suggestion and remove "against qmail/djbdns" on the other pages (now just _Brad Knowles's Slander_, for example). Tim On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:55:59PM -0800, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > In > > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/jackson.html > DJB says "The largest Exim host is doing a mere 50000 deliveries per day." > > The publically available Exim users mailing list archives show a lot > more. For example: > > "... we use an old SparcStation 20 to ship around 60,000 emails a day and > according to the exim stats 98% of those are shipped in under a minute. > The load average on the machine is next to nothing to the extent that I > get paranoid if it ever approaches one." > (<20000714095714.E17070@apple.ukc.ac.uk>) > > "... My server processes 50,000 to 100,000 messages a day and every one > of those passes through a filter that currently contains 200 rules, > mostly regex matches (checks for worms and viruses, scores potential > spam, etc.) Server load hovers around 0.30 (FreeBSD, Pentium III 400MHz) > with the odd "spike" to 1.0 or so." > () > > "Under exim, I put about 5GB (bytes not bits) from one machine between > 8pm and 9am. That is over one million outbound emails in 12 hours. You > do the math. That is a lot of traffic and is on a small dual processor > PIII with a single SCSI disk (no stripe for the spool). ..." > (<396C78B5.4D54B104@cnds.jhu.edu>) > > (The same admin also says:) > "... We deliver about 1.5 million message/day on any given machine. > But, we don't push mail between 11am and 8pm (only 8pm to 11am)." > > There are many other documented. > > Someone should make a "DJB's slander (his word) against ..." > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://www.reedmedia.net/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 19:40:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server2.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AC537B425 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server2.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2T3eAr08965 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:40:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server2.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:40:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server2.highperformance.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The most sophisticated bikeshed Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To whomever was working to bring in the new sendmail, thank you. To the others, your bikeshed will collapse due to all of the paint it must support. Sendmail has been around FreeBSD since the flood. Nearly every aspect of "bikeshed" and "how many hackers" has been part of this sendmail discussion. You hit on the idea that sendmail doesn't belong in the base system. Allow me to complete the thought. WHAT IS -CORE DOING ABOUT IT!? Bah! Sendmail is fine. Give it a rest. I read these two items in the FAQ just now. They are even funnier when given context. Sincerely, Jason C. Wells (saying DIE THREAD! DIE! in a few more words) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 19:44:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (dsl-64-130-18-61.telocity.com [64.130.18.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 875D537B41A for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3413 invoked by uid 85); 29 Mar 2002 03:44:48 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:44:46 -0500 From: Alan Clegg To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed Message-ID: <20020328224446.A3324@shell.wetworks.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="liOOAslEiF7prFVr" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@highperformance.net on Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 07:40:10PM -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless the network is lying to me again, Jason C. Wells said:=20 > (saying DIE THREAD! DIE! in a few more words) You realize, that by telling the thread to die, you have just made sure that it will continue until a reference to Hitler is made. AlanC --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8o+MuyJP8xSfQVdsRAkU4AJ0c6zU4vgAFfsbp1TsDwlISpVxV5wCfal99 uU7FO9v8AK3ELXVBcWCfDQQ= =OxIL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 19:48: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BED937B41B for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4D8EB7830E; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:17:53 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:17:53 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Alan Clegg Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed Message-ID: <20020329141753.E402@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020328224446.A3324@shell.wetworks.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020328224446.A3324@shell.wetworks.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 28 March 2002 at 22:44:46 -0500, Alan Clegg wrote: > Unless the network is lying to me again, Jason C. Wells said: > >> (saying DIE THREAD! DIE! in a few more words) > > You realize, that by telling the thread to die, you have just made sure > that it will continue until a reference to Hitler is made. Thanks for shortening the process! Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 20:12:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from muncher.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C51D837B419 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7769 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Mar 2002 04:11:54 -0000 Date: 29 Mar 2002 04:11:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20020329041154.22212.qmail@cr.yp.to> Automatic-Legal-Notices: See http://cr.yp.to/mailcopyright.html. From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My comment that ``The largest Exim host is doing a mere 50000 deliveries per day'' was accurate when I wrote it several years ago. Of course, it is out of date now. I apologize for not labelling the comment with a date when I first wrote the page. I hope nobody has been misled. I've fixed the page now. ---D. J. Bernstein, Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science, University of Illinois at Chicago To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 28 23:16:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C274237B417 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0091.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.91] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qqck-0003Ib-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:16:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA414A4.C14FF0D9@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:15:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "D. J. Bernstein" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020329041154.22212.qmail@cr.yp.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "D. J. Bernstein" wrote: > My comment that ``The largest Exim host is doing a mere 50000 deliveries > per day'' was accurate when I wrote it several years ago. Of course, it > is out of date now. > > I apologize for not labelling the comment with a date when I first wrote > the page. I hope nobody has been misled. I've fixed the page now. Rough consensus and working code. I don't think anyone really gives a hoot about the dates; they are just looking for things to nit-pick. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 0:13:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169737B417 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-150-4.dial.proxad.net [62.147.150.4]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEBE17F37 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:13:51 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 1763 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Mar 2002 08:13:49 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:13:49 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Pete Ehlke , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020329081349.GA1737@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Mar 29, 2002 at 01:24:00: > > I found the following: > > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/knowles.html (I assume the original comment here > > was tongue-in-cheek...) > > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/warfield.html > > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/jackson.html > > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/venema.html... > > Cool! I rank up there with Wietse? Excellent! Actually, Wietse is linked from his main pages, I don't think you are :) Well, I use qmail and other DJB stuff myself, and like it. (No idea about its security and performance and all, my needs are modest, but I found it was easy to set up and extremely well documented.) I also agree with him that if you accuse him, on a public mailing list, of ignoring bug reports/security holes, you should say what they are. The only one I'm aware of, which Wietse pointed out years ago and continues to harp on, is the memory exhaustion thing, which in Dan's opinion is the job of the operating system and not the MTA (though I guess he should have fixed his docs to discuss the problem, at least). And his license is a problem too, of course -- this was #17 on your list of complaints. But he doesn't forbid redistribution of source code and he doesn't forbid distribution of patches, so it's really a problem only for binary distributors like Red Hat... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 4:48:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907BC37B41A for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g2TCmOg07245 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:48:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:48:24 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020329044824.B12348@ehlke.net> References: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> <20020329081349.GA1737@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020329081349.GA1737@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 09:13:49AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 09:13:49AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > agree with him that if you accuse him, on a public mailing list, of > ignoring bug reports/security holes, you should say what they are. OK, here's one. Dan's authoritative server, tinydns, is designed to only respond to iterative queries. It is, by design, incapable of providing recursion. It also, by design, does not serve hesiod or chaos class records. I identified a bug in tinydns related to how it responds to hesiod and chaos queries. tinydns and dnscache (dan's recursive server) share the code path that initializes query responses. The code initializes every response with the RA and RD bits set, and tinydns resets those bits. However, it resets them *after* validating the query class. The end result is that tinydns incorrectly sets the RD and RA bits on non-recursive queries in the hesiod and chaos classes. Dan's response to this bug is that tinydns is only designed to serve internet class records, and thus querying it for other classes is user error. This was a simple bug, easily fixed. It doesn't break anything, but the error is clear, and fixing it would involve nothing more than admitting that he had made a coding error. But Dan can't do that. He'd rather insist that he *intends* to return bogus information than fix a trifling little bug. Note for QA folks: when the developer says "That's not a bug, you're using it wrong", you are dealing with the worst sort of arrogant prima donna. -Pete -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 11:13: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (freebsddiary.org.ua [213.186.199.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EE437B420; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from never@localhost) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2TJCkq16188; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:12:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:12:46 +0200 From: Nevermind To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Adam , security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Message-ID: <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Crist J. Clark! On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 05:51:40PM -0800, you wrote: > > I would highly suggest that you use telnet. As long as you keep it updated > > and patched you shouldnt have any problems with it.. > > Dude, pass whatever the hell you are smoking down here. As far as I can see 60% of postings in freebsd-*@ starts or ends with phrase like "What are you smoking there?" :) I hope somedays it will became a standard greeting :)) -- NEVE-RIPE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 11:17:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB1637B400; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-119aekg.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.58.144] helo=ns.flncs.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r1sB-00065L-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:17:15 -0800 Received: from moti (cylex [12.27.148.78]) by ns.flncs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A5C6207BD; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:21:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> From: "Moti Levy" Cc: , References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:17:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org well they say only two god things came out of Berkley lsd and unix , and it's not a coincidence . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nevermind" To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: "Adam" ; ; Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? > Hello, Crist J. Clark! > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 05:51:40PM -0800, you wrote: > > > > I would highly suggest that you use telnet. As long as you keep it updated > > > and patched you shouldnt have any problems with it.. > > > > Dude, pass whatever the hell you are smoking down here. > As far as I can see 60% of postings in freebsd-*@ starts or ends with > phrase like "What are you smoking there?" :) > > I hope somedays it will became a standard greeting :)) > > -- > NEVE-RIPE > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 11:20:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1562037B426; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id B55E4AE1C1; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:20:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:20:33 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Moti Levy Cc: security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Message-ID: <20020329192033.GW93885@elvis.mu.org> References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Moti Levy [020329 11:17] wrote: > well they say only two god things came out of Berkley > lsd and unix , and it's not a coincidence . http://www.spatula.net/proc/rants/bsdlsd.src -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 11:24:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D42F37B400; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-119aekg.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.58.144] helo=ns.flncs.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r1zO-0003xT-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:24:42 -0800 Received: from moti (cylex [12.27.148.78]) by ns.flncs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E845020696; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:28:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007e01c1d757$6f7b6950$fd6e34c6@moti> From: "Moti Levy" To: "Alfred Perlstein" Cc: , References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> <20020329192033.GW93885@elvis.mu.org> Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:25:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I take it back than ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: "Moti Levy" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 2:20 PM Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? > * Moti Levy [020329 11:17] wrote: > > well they say only two god things came out of Berkley > > lsd and unix , and it's not a coincidence . > > > http://www.spatula.net/proc/rants/bsdlsd.src > > -Alfred > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 12:18:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B52C37B417 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CBF2A239A18; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:18:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:18:48 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Moti Levy , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Message-ID: <20020329201848.GD507@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> <20020329192033.GW93885@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jTMWTj4UTAEmbWeb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020329192033.GW93885@elvis.mu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --jTMWTj4UTAEmbWeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-03-29 11:20 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Moti Levy [020329 11:17] wrote: > > well they say only two god things came out of Berkley > > lsd and unix , and it's not a coincidence . >=20 > http://www.spatula.net/proc/rants/bsdlsd.src It's a good enough "quote" that the facts cease to matter. Who's the whiner with the rant page, anyway? He should know better than to try to ruin a perfectly good social myth. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org=20 http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --jTMWTj4UTAEmbWeb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8pMwoIBUx1YRd/t0RAmiYAJ9ctHTwJcbSTZg8F9mofsMJ87Zi9QCffOqR YzexNaM/I2GlzvcHW5+f5/Q= =wPXM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jTMWTj4UTAEmbWeb-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 13:25:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6693837B41A; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id g2TLPAf46538; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:25:10 GMT (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2TLMRPL013173; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:22:27 GMT (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200203292122.g2TLMRPL013173@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed References: <20020329141753.E402@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20020329141753.E402@wantadilla.lemis.com> ; from "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" "Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:17:53 +1030." Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:22:27 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You realize, that by telling the thread to die, you have just made sure > > that it will continue until a reference to Hitler is made. > > Thanks for shortening the process! Naah. It hasn't happened yet. The Law-invoking event is a negative _comparison_ (even if subtle) by one participant of another to Hitler and or The Nazis. Which part of that don't you understand, or are you and the rest of the Gestapo still too busy kicking down bikesheds??? ;-) M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 13:33:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 630D537B419; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:33:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:33:54 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Moti Levy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Message-ID: <20020329133354.A19688@FreeBSD.org> References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti>; from moti@flncs.com on Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 02:17:44PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > well they say only two god things came out of Berkley > lsd and unix , and it's not a coincidence . Well, Washington's two biggest exports appear to be Windows and crackheads. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 13:58:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC27F37B416; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2TLw3J08395; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:58:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:58:03 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Moti Levy , , Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? In-Reply-To: <20020329192033.GW93885@elvis.mu.org> Message-ID: <20020329135727.B96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > http://www.spatula.net/proc/rants/bsdlsd.src http://caustic.org/~jan/history.html just throught i'd share.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 15: 7:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0B937B417 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:07:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 35551239A18; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:07:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:07:27 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Randall Hamilton Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Moti Levy , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Message-ID: <20020329230727.GK6053@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <2823.213.112.58.135.1017350976.squirrel@phucking.kicks-ass.org> <000501c1d6a0$30b95bd0$126cfea9@a4ibmrrll9362k> <20020328175140.M97841@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020329191246.GB13831@nevermind.kiev.ua> <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> <20020329192033.GW93885@elvis.mu.org> <20020329201848.GD507@klapaucius.zer0.org> <001601c1d775$9aef15f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G4GkWxNJALccptvH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001601c1d775$9aef15f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --G4GkWxNJALccptvH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-03-29 18:01 -0500, Randall Hamilton wro= te: > actully..thats nick's page..number-6 on EFnet > in #freebsd Oh. That explains a lot, actually. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Five million battered women in mailto:gsutter@zer0.org this country, and I've always http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ eaten mine plain... hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --G4GkWxNJALccptvH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8pPOvIBUx1YRd/t0RAj1cAJ95ablHytkYM5M0zzxGP1wTzHnCegCghT+r Ryb++OgWaQ1a+mI50qBLMe8= =sNYf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G4GkWxNJALccptvH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 15:35:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32D137B41A for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0156.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.156] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r5tn-0004Vh-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:35:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA4FA19.F72624A0@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:34:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Ehlke Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020328203704.GA760@lpt.ens.fr> <20020329081349.GA1737@lpt.ens.fr> <20020329044824.B12348@ehlke.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete Ehlke wrote: > Note for QA folks: when the developer says "That's not a bug, you're using > it wrong", you are dealing with the worst sort of arrogant prima donna. I've spent a lot of time at one employer or another fixing things that weren't problems because a Q/A person tried to use the product to fulfill a role for which it was never designed, and for which it was never intended to be marketed. When doing Q/A, you need to make sure that what you are testing falls within the set of use cases for the product, and isn't some oddball configuration which can never happen unless you give the end users more access to your box than they can normally achieve using any combination of the permissable UIs (GUI, CLI, initial configuration, "wizards", etc.). You also have to realize that discovering a boundary condition isn't really enough to prevent shipping the product: "Eventually, a software comapny has to ship software." -- Greg Haerr Your best developer in any group of developers can probably tell you dozens of degenerate cases that will cause your product to perform badly and/or to fail outright. Some public tests (e.g. "Polygraph") are *designed* to adaptively find the worst case performance scenario for any product, and then exercise it. Then you end up with assinine things like "random page replacement" to become unpredictable to these tests, and get better numbers, which are only better numbers on the benchmark, since they throw out things that would optimize real world use of the product, like locality of reference. Some Q/A people also feel that they have failed at their job, unless they have crashed the product. So they come up with tests that can crash the product in 24 hours: using something like an "Avalanche" or other purpose-built test equipment, over a gigabit network, they crash a product after a little over 24 hours. In the real world, assuming that the problem is stress related, rather than overload boundary related (a bad assumption), this failure may happen once every 3 months, given real world load generating capacity over a couple of OC3's is a hell of a lot less than a colocated box built to do nothing but generate load. So while it's true that it's stupid for someone to claim that something is not a bug, in the case of manual configurations at a root prompt, perhaps it's not a bug. And for boundary conditions under unrealistic load on unrealistic configurations, it may be a bug... but just because it is severity 1, doesn't mean that it's priority 1: if a user will never see it, it has zero priority, no matter what it does to the box. In fact, if people take one lesson from this thread, it should be this: severity is not the same things as importance, is not the same thing as priority. There's a process called "requirements tracking"; it keeps people from implementing things customers aren't asking for, and it keeps people from testing things in ways that are not harmonious with how customers will actually use the product. Dan was wrong to claim that it wasn't a bug (I can see his reasons for wanting to make this claim, given his "posted reward" thing), but it was equally wrong to expect the code to work in that configuration for which it was never designed: I never expect my car to work in the water, or my boat to work on the freeway, even though both are vehicles... At some point, you have to cut your losses, and say that "the user is attempting to use the product for a purpose for which it was never designed, Sorry". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 15:50:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A5937B400 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-151-48.dial.proxad.net [62.147.151.48]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA91AB1E8 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:50:29 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 1635 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Mar 2002 23:50:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:50:14 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020329235014.GA1609@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CA4FA19.F72624A0@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan was wrong to claim that it wasn't a bug (I can see his reasons > for wanting to make this claim, given his "posted reward" thing), Um, that reward is specifically for security holes, not for any old bug: http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/guarantee.html The same with qmail -- http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 15:52:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F4137B419 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a132.otenet.gr [212.205.215.132]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2TNqWQA004871; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:52:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2TN1tLM001748; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:01:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2TN1skx001747; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:01:54 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:01:54 +0200 (EET) From: Giorgos Keramidas X-X-Sender: charon@hades To: Moti Levy Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? In-Reply-To: <005801c1d756$681a7c10$fd6e34c6@moti> Message-ID: <20020330010033.U1377-100000@hades> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-03-29 14:17, Moti Levy wrote: > well they say only two god things came out of Berkley > lsd and unix , and it's not a coincidence . It might arguably fail to be a coincidence, but it is provably a lie (at least as far as LSD is concerned) :P Oh, it's also off-topic on -security, so I removed it from the Cc: list. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 15:58:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4881937B405 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2TNw4608245; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:58:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:58:04 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020329155804.A7895@rain.macguire.net> References: <3CA4FA19.F72624A0@mindspring.com> <20020329235014.GA1609@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020329235014.GA1609@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 12:50:14AM +0100 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan (rsidd@online.fr) [020329 15:50]: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Dan was wrong to claim that it wasn't a bug (I can see his reasons > > for wanting to make this claim, given his "posted reward" thing), > > Um, that reward is specifically for security holes, not for any old > bug: > > http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/guarantee.html > > The same with qmail -- > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html Its a charlatan's promise. He fails to define security, or bug, or anything else really, and retains the right to define it at a later time (preferably after you've already reported it). If a company were to offer to pay you for your services in finding bugs, but not define bug or security, and after many years nobody was ever able to get a successful claim out of them despite getting many submissions, it would be called Fraud. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 16:33:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9634937B416 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0156.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.156] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r6oU-0003uu-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:33:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA507D4.D0A737A7@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:33:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020329235014.GA1609@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Dan was wrong to claim that it wasn't a bug (I can see his reasons > > for wanting to make this claim, given his "posted reward" thing), > > Um, that reward is specifically for security holes, not for any old > bug: > > http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/guarantee.html > > The same with qmail -- > http://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html IMO, such a guarantee is indicative of a philosophy that doesn't admit error (sorry). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 17:22:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA9537B416 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14630 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:29:23 -0500 Message-Id: <200203300129.UAA14630@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chip Morton To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: run Microsoft Office without Windows Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:21:15 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/03/29/020329hncodeweavers.xml?0329frpm So do you all think this will be a boon to Linux, a blow to Microsoft, or both? And is it something that any of you would be interested in running on your FreeBSD systems? Other solutions to this problem have either been "iffy" or "pricey," but this one sounds like it could hit the mark in both areas. Opinions? << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 17:42:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A02C37B405 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0156.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.156] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r7tA-0002BA-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:42:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA517FA.AF05C0D@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:42:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: run Microsoft Office without Windows References: <200203300129.UAA14630@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/03/29/020329hncodeweavers.xml?0329frpm > > So do you all think this will be a boon to Linux, a blow to Microsoft, or > both? And is it something that any of you would be interested in running on > your FreeBSD systems? Other solutions to this problem have either been > "iffy" or "pricey," but this one sounds like it could hit the mark in both > areas. > > Opinions? God, the humor! It's so painful to hold it in! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 18: 9:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9C337B405 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29975 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:16:17 -0500 Message-Id: <200203300216.VAA29975@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chip Morton Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: run Microsoft Office without Windows Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:09:29 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <200203300129.UAA14630@threespace.com> <3CA517FA.AF05C0D@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CA517FA.AF05C0D@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 29 March 2002 08:42 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > Chip Morton wrote: > > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/03/29/020329hncodeweavers.xml > >?0329frpm > > > > So do you all think this will be a boon to Linux, a blow to Microsoft, or > > both? And is it something that any of you would be interested in running > > on your FreeBSD systems? Other solutions to this problem have either > > been "iffy" or "pricey," but this one sounds like it could hit the mark > > in both areas. > > > > Opinions? > > God, the humor! It's so painful to hold it in! > > -- Terry Then by all means, man, let it out! Would you be willing to give up your Windows XP system if you could run Microsoft Office in all it's glory on your FreeBSD system? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 19:55:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9B237B405; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2U3tTe08896; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:55:29 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Chris BeHanna Cc: FreeBSD Security , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSH or Telnet? Message-ID: <20020329195529.B7895@rain.macguire.net> References: <200203291145.OAA03776@paranoid.eltex.ru> <20020329220256.N38382-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020329220256.N38382-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org>; from behanna@zbzoom.net on Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 10:04:43PM -0500 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Chris BeHanna (behanna@zbzoom.net) [020329 19:05]: > On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 ark@eltex.ru wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > What's wrong with telnet? I use it frequently and i am pretty satisified with > > it. > > > > (I don't need to encrypt sessions, there is no sensitive information inside. > > Don't tell me about cleartext passwords, there are no cleartext passwords. > > Have a look at ethereal or dsniff. You will be surprised. > > > And if you really need encryption you may run telnet over ipsec) > > IPsec is a VPN solution. If someone in the LAN to which you're > VPN-ing is running a sniffer, then what? > > -- > Chris BeHanna > Software Engineer (Remove "bogus" before responding.) > behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net > I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. Our unsuspecting user logs in to the nameserver to update the pornserve.domain.com zone record for the new porn server (yay!). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ roo@rain:~> telnet fog Trying 10.0.0.50... Connected to fog.DOMAIN. Escape character is '^]'. HP-UX fog B.11.00 A 9000/712 (t0) login: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MEANWHILE, IN THE CAVE OF EVILDOERS! Joe Deluer, Evil Hax0r Extrodinaire, listens closely on an upstream link... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dsniff: listening on fxp0 dsniff: trigger_tcp: decoding port 23 as telnet ----------------- 03/29/02 19:42:33 tcp rain.macguire.net.1392 -> fog.macguire.net.23 (telnet) roo test123 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Ah Ha!", says Joe, "I will 0wn j00 my pretty and your delicious pr0n too!". --- "... there are no cleartext passwords." DESCRIPTION dsniff is a password sniffer which handles FTP, Telnet, SMTP, HTTP, POP, poppass, NNTP, IMAP, SNMP, LDAP, Rlogin, RIP, OSPF, PPTP MS-CHAP, NFS, VRRP, YP/NIS, SOCKS, X11, CVS, IRC, AIM, ICQ, Napster, PostgreSQL, Meeting Maker, Citrix ICA, Symantec pcAnywhere, NAI Sniffer, Microsoft SMB, Oracle SQL*Net, Sybase and Microsoft SQL protocols. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 20:15:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39A637B417 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16314; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:15:26 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329211251.03040d70@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:15:23 -0700 To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: run Microsoft Office without Windows In-Reply-To: <200203300129.UAA14630@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:21 PM 3/29/2002, Chip Morton wrote: >http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/03/29/020329hncodeweavers.xml?0329frpm > >So do you all think this will be a boon to Linux, a blow to Microsoft, or >both? I think it smacks of hypocrisy. Codeweavers just recently insisted upon converting the WINE code base from an X11-like license to the LGPL, because they claimed that it was wrong for other companies to make money by doing their own products based on WINE. And here they've come out with one.... --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 20:23:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BF137B400 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24443 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:30:12 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329221726.01dcc1e8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:22:52 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: run Microsoft Office without Windows In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329211251.03040d70@nospam.lariat.org> References: <200203300129.UAA14630@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:15 PM 3/29/2002, Brett Glass wrote: >At 06:21 PM 3/29/2002, Chip Morton wrote: > > >http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/03/29/020329hncodeweavers.xml > ?0329frpm > > > >So do you all think this will be a boon to Linux, a blow to Microsoft, or > >both? > >I think it smacks of hypocrisy. Codeweavers just recently insisted upon >converting the WINE code base from an X11-like license to the LGPL, because >they claimed that it was wrong for other companies to make money by doing >their own products based on WINE. And here they've come out with one.... I saw somebody refer to "Brett" on one of the WINE discussion boards and wondered if they were talking about you. I guess I should have known you wouldn't miss a chance to do battle with someone ready to embrace the LGPL. :-) Anyway, I thought it was odd too that Codeweavers had a "working" commercial product based on an Open Source codebase that didn't work quite as well despite the fact that they claimed to submit numerous improvements to the Open Source version. How the heck does that work? << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 20:53:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDA1B37B404 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17416 invoked by uid 1000); 30 Mar 2002 04:53:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:53:06 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 04:25:06AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:02 PM -0600 2002/03/27, Tim wrote: > > > Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least > > point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html > > Given the lies we've seen from Dan in the past, I won't bother to > waste my time with this page. But somehow you found the time to publish an 18 point list to freebsd-chat about qmail and djbdns... Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 20:55: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77AA437B41B for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2U4sd409124; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:54:39 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Tim Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020329205439.E7895@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com>; from tim@sleepy.wojomedia.com on Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 10:53:06PM -0600 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Tim (tim@sleepy.wojomedia.com) [020329 20:53]: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 04:25:06AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 8:02 PM -0600 2002/03/27, Tim wrote: > > > > > Having helped prolonged this thread, I feel obligated to at least > > > point out http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/knowles.html > > > > Given the lies we've seen from Dan in the past, I won't bother to > > waste my time with this page. > > But somehow you found the time to publish an 18 point list > to freebsd-chat about qmail and djbdns... > > Tim Which he previously mentioned was pre-fabricated. This is getting a bit silly, methinks. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 20:58:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674A237B416; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A81D775AC; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56711D94; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:01:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:01:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mark Murray Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed In-Reply-To: <200203292122.g2TLMRPL013173@grimreaper.grondar.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Mark Murray wrote: :> > You realize, that by telling the thread to die, you have just made sure :> > that it will continue until a reference to Hitler is made. :> :> Thanks for shortening the process! : :Naah. It hasn't happened yet. The Law-invoking event is a negative :_comparison_ (even if subtle) by one participant of another to :Hitler and or The Nazis. : : :Which part of that don't you understand, or are you and the rest of :the Gestapo still too busy kicking down bikesheds??? : Unaware of the corrolary are you? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 21: 1: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4425B37B41B for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17620 invoked by uid 1000); 30 Mar 2002 05:01:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:01:00 -0600 From: Tim To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020330050100.GA17537@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020329205439.E7895@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020329205439.E7895@rain.macguire.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Which he previously mentioned was pre-fabricated. This is getting a bit silly, > methinks. First, this is -chat. We are allowed to be silly, I believe. Second, he also said he welcomes factual corrections but then waives his hand over all of Dan's response. Third, so what if it was pre-fabricated? Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 23:27:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6407D37B400; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17733; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:26:49 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020330002555.00d86ce0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:26:43 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden , Mark Murray From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200203292122.g2TLMRPL013173@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:01 PM 3/29/2002, Jamie Bowden wrote: >Unaware of the corrolary are you? I know about the Microsoft Corollary, which says that introducing Microsoft as a straw man has the same effect as mentioning Hitler. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 29 23:48: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F94037B41C for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02644BD45; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA30044; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:47:44 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2U7kAi20083; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:46:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: run Microsoft Office without Windows References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329211251.03040d70@nospam.lariat.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 29 Mar 2002 23:46:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329211251.03040d70@nospam.lariat.org> Message-ID: Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > I think it smacks of hypocrisy. Codeweavers just recently insisted upon > converting the WINE code base from an X11-like license to the LGPL, because > they claimed that it was wrong for other companies to make money by doing > their own products based on WINE. And here they've come out with one.... Brett, I usually agree with you, but I wonder if you've paraphrased them correctly. They, like any other proprietary-minded user of copyleft (including the FSF), have an us-verse-them philosophy which would lead one to say something like: I'll have to tolerate others making some money off my free [sic] software because it otherwise wouldn't qualify as free [sic] software, BUT it is wrong for them to not let me then use their derivatives of it in return (which conveniently, thanks to copyleft, just happens to include any of the other's software they choose to combine with my free [sic] software). It's just not fair. Waaaa. They can't use mine unless I can use theirs. It would give them a competive advantage. X11-like licenses don't keep derivatives free. We must acknowledge that it makes some sense in the proprietory way of thinking that Microsoft, Stallman, and others have popularized, sadly even in the open source and academic scientific/research worlds where true sharing was once common. I only wish that people who understand that sharing isn't the same thing as trading and who don't mind sharing (like most BSDers) could do a better job rallying together and promoting the philosophy. Too many people just care about software features and, given copyleft's advantages of mind-share and virility, we should promote other reasons to use non-GNU/Linux software like FreeBSD. And I don't blame companies like Codeweavers for acting selfishly; that's what companies are for. They'll only share or act unselfish to the extent that there's some benefit. And I don't see their hypocracy; they could keep some of their work secret no matter what open source license WINE is under. (And I don't consider "acting unselfish" hypocritical in that context; it's a well-established well-honored behavior which hurts nobody.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 0:30:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4F537B416 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id g2U8U8B77859; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:30:08 GMT (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2U8RTPL020234; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:27:29 GMT (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200203300827.g2U8RTPL020234@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed References: In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden "Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:01:19 PST." Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:27:29 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > :Naah. It hasn't happened yet. The Law-invoking event is a negative > :_comparison_ (even if subtle) by one participant of another to > :Hitler and or The Nazis. > : > : > :Which part of that don't you understand, or are you and the rest of > :the Gestapo still too busy kicking down bikesheds??? > : > > Unaware of the corrolary are you? Hmmm. (Tries to work it out) Invoking Godwin to kill flamewars doesn't work? M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 1:51: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63FB37B400 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0120.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.120] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rFVT-0005rn-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:50:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA58A5D.1D8E00B5@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:50:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: run Microsoft Office without Windows References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329211251.03040d70@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: [ Brett Says ... Gary says ... Brett says .... ] I find it incredibly amusing when poeple bitch about the quality, stability, and security of Misrosoft products. Then they gloat about the quality, stability, and security of "Open Source" software (basically, quoting such documents as "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", without ever having read the source code for which it is a case study, to quantify exactly what the quality, stability, and security is that they are talking about. Then, based on all that, they go and pick a license which precludes most commercial use by companies, such that they have to keep doing business the way that was first being complained about... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 4: 3: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (dsl-64-130-18-61.telocity.com [64.130.18.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB39837B404 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 04:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43085 invoked by uid 85); 30 Mar 2002 12:02:41 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:02:40 -0500 From: Alan Clegg To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed Message-ID: <20020330070240.B42816@shell.wetworks.org> References: <200203292122.g2TLMRPL013173@grimreaper.grondar.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020330002555.00d86ce0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KFztAG8eRSV9hGtP" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020330002555.00d86ce0@nospam.lariat.org>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 12:26:43AM -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --KFztAG8eRSV9hGtP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless the network is lying to me again, Brett Glass said:=20 > I know about the Microsoft Corollary, which says that introducing > Microsoft as a straw man has the same effect as mentioning Hitler. I think this thread will go on forever now, as invoking any of the "stop-this-thread-now" devices on purpose insures its failure. used thus-far: "Stop this thread" Hitler Godwin Microsoft AlanC --KFztAG8eRSV9hGtP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8palgyJP8xSfQVdsRAjd0AKCZ57Azoo5dWQEelwMAQGDueDMVqACeMf4D AE3nJckMYsb6laJyNtZAhSw= =6/FO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KFztAG8eRSV9hGtP-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 5:18:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317DA37B41A for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0093.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.93] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rIkM-0002UT-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:18:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA5BB04.DD70E424@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:17:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Clegg Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed References: <200203292122.g2TLMRPL013173@grimreaper.grondar.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020330002555.00d86ce0@nospam.lariat.org> <20020330070240.B42816@shell.wetworks.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alan Clegg wrote: > > Unless the network is lying to me again, Brett Glass said: > > > I know about the Microsoft Corollary, which says that introducing > > Microsoft as a straw man has the same effect as mentioning Hitler. > > I think this thread will go on forever now, as invoking any of the > "stop-this-thread-now" devices on purpose insures its failure. > > used thus-far: > "Stop this thread" > Hitler > Godwin > Microsoft Don't forget: "Self non-fulfilling prophecy of thread immortality" -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 7:38: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD33F37B41A for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 891F7757D; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 865A61D8F; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:39:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:39:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The most sophisticated bikeshed In-Reply-To: <200203300827.g2U8RTPL020234@grimreaper.grondar.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Mark Murray wrote: :> :Naah. It hasn't happened yet. The Law-invoking event is a negative :> :_comparison_ (even if subtle) by one participant of another to :> :Hitler and or The Nazis. :> : :> : :> :Which part of that don't you understand, or are you and the rest of :> :the Gestapo still too busy kicking down bikesheds??? :> : :> :> Unaware of the corrolary are you? : :Hmmm. (Tries to work it out) Invoking Godwin to kill flamewars doesn't work? *DING DING DING* We have a winner. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 8: 1:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DBB37B41C for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.20] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2UFxJD20090; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:59:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <20020323002608.B20699@rain.macguire.net> <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:53:24 +0100 To: Tim , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 PM -0600 2002/03/29, Tim wrote: >> Given the lies we've seen from Dan in the past, I won't bother to >> waste my time with this page. > > But somehow you found the time to publish an 18 point list > to freebsd-chat about qmail and djbdns... I've had it for a while -- it was something I came up with as part of my work for a book deal that never materialized. Indeed, the complete list is now up to twenty-four (or something like that), but I have not yet had an opportunity to integrate the newer issues with the older list. Cut-n-paste is not all that hard or time-consuming. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 8: 2:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A1137B400 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.20] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2UFxUD20236; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:59:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020330050100.GA17537@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3C9C84CF.2090300@flash.net> <20020323084327.A354@rain.macguire.net> <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020329205439.E7895@rain.macguire.net> <20020330050100.GA17537@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:55:42 +0100 To: Tim , Benjamin Krueger From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 PM -0600 2002/03/29, Tim wrote: > Second, he also said he welcomes factual corrections but then waives > his hand over all of Dan's response. If *you* give me corrections, or someone else on this list gives me corrections, I am likely to pay attention. However, given what we know of Dan and his lies (including libel and slander of his own) in the past, I am not inclined to try to wade through his latest propaganda to see if there might be the smallest tiny sub-atomic kernel of truth (surely accidental) in his claims. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 15:27:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excel.net (209-103-231-194.ply-p3-04.excel.net [209.103.231.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5406437B434 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:23:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:27:50 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: cabineteaz@excel.net X-Mailer: Version 5.0 Subject: Do you sell cabinets? Organization: Cabinet Eaz Message-Id: <20020330232354.5406437B434@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you sell, install or make cabinets, take a moment. This product is well worth looking into. 1. Reduce damage to cabinets tremendously; 2. The faces of the cabinets will be flush, the tops and bottoms even; 3. Cuts installation time by 1/2 or more with less fatigue; 4. One man cabinet installation with Micro Adjusting accuracy. These are only a few benefits. Quality workmanship reflects: Your name Your image Your product Remember, the women always look at the kitchen. For the discriminate cabinet maker and installer. http://www.quicksitemaker.com/members/bbiles If you are a cabinet manufacturer your distributers will benefit. Cabinet Eaz makes the difference. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 30 15:58:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A04137B416 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2UNvuO14783 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:57:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:57:55 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do you sell cabinets? Message-ID: <20020330155755.H7895@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020330232354.5406437B434@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020330232354.5406437B434@hub.freebsd.org>; from cabineteaz@excel.net on Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 05:27:50PM -0600 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * cabineteaz@excel.net (cabineteaz@excel.net) [020330 15:27]: > > If you sell, install or make cabinets, take a moment. This > product is well worth looking into. > > 1. Reduce damage to cabinets tremendously; > 2. The faces of the cabinets will be flush, the tops and bottoms even; > 3. Cuts installation time by 1/2 or more with less fatigue; > 4. One man cabinet installation with Micro Adjusting accuracy. > > These are only a few benefits. > > Quality workmanship reflects: > Your name > Your image > Your product > > Remember, the women always look at the kitchen. > > For the discriminate cabinet maker and installer. > > http://www.quicksitemaker.com/members/bbiles > > If you are a cabinet manufacturer your distributers will benefit. > > Cabinet Eaz makes the difference. If you sell, install, or make Windows(tm), take a moment. This product is well worth looking into. 1. Reduce unsightly scratches, shattering, and bluescreening; 2. The faces of Windows(tm) will be clear, clean, and beautiful (So you can compete with MacOS X and Aqua); 3. Cuts installation time by 1/2 or more with less fatigue; 4. One man window installation with Micro Adjusting accuracy. These are only a few benefits. Quality workmanship reflects: Your name Your image Your product Remember, Purchasing Managers and IT Directors always look at the kitchen. For the discriminate Windows(tm) maker and installer. http://www.vapoursoft.com/notinthislifetime/ If you are a Windows(tm) manufacturer your distributers will benefit. Windows(tm) Eaz(tm) makes the difference. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message