From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 23:26:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B43416A4BF for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EAF43FBF for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: from garple.migus.org ([68.55.83.100]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2003090106254801500gk2aee>; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 06:25:49 +0000 Received: from garple.migus.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h816PlqX078405; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 02:25:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h816PWrK078404; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 02:25:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: garple.migus.org: www set sender to adam@migus.org using -f Received: from 192.168.4.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user adam) by mail.migus.org with HTTP; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 02:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <51381.192.168.4.2.1062397532.squirrel@mail.migus.org> In-Reply-To: <200307231042.29371.alex.neyman@auriga.ru> References: <20030719171138.GA86442@dragon.nuxi.com><20030722151138.GB72888@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030722153056.GM863@starjuice.net> <200307231042.29371.alex.neyman@auriga.ru> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 02:25:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam C. Migus" To: "Alexey Neyman" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PRIORITY_NO_NAME, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 06:26:59 -0000 Alexey Neyman said: > Hi, there! > > On Tuesday 22 July 2003 19:30, Sheldon Hearn wrote: >> I don't see this as an unreasonable requirement, and I can't see >> what >> great cost it incurs that would motivate us to remove support foraccommodate >> it. >environments > Can't all this be done in a "user needs it, user adds it" fashion? > E.g., to > add /etc/rescue.mk that will be .include'd in > src/rescue/rescue/Makefile,compromise > adding the required binaries to the CRUNCH_PROGS_bin, > CRUNCH_PROG_sbin, > CRUNCH_LIBS lists? > > E.g: > --- /etc/rescue.mk --- > CRUNCH_PROGS_sbin += chown > > This will allow the "base" list to be trimmed to some minimalist > level, and > will still allow the users to add whatever they [think they] need to > restore > their system. > > Regards, > Alexey. > > -- > A quoi ca sert d'etre sur la terre > Si c'est pour faire nos vies a genoux? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > At the risk of throwing lighter fluid on smoldering ashes, some thoughts: The whole change to dynamic linking for / is a move to "modernize" FreeBSD. Thus /rescue is a "modern" attempt at creating a /stand. If we're going to be "modern" we ought to think about what "modern" sysadmins need to "rescue" their systems. Administrators as well as operating systems have gotten more "modern" over time. The days of fixing a system with 5 binaries and a not so portable tape drive are gone for some and not even known for others. The tools in /rescue need to accomadate the administrators of today. If they don't, those administrators will find an operating system they can fix more easily. /rescue to me implies "what's needed to rescue you're hosed FreeBSD system." Given FreeBSD system could be a file server, a web server, a firewall, a router or a VCR one could even say to rescue the network. Moreover, these systems could be deployed in a variety of different locations and enviornments. The set of tools required to fix each of these systems and keep them safe while doing so, can be quite different. Finally, this argument essentially comes down to space savings vs. ability to rescue the system. Is 100K of disk space worth 2 hours of time due to a missing tool? One must be very cautious about removing a tool more so than adding it. On the other hand I have to wonder about /rescue/wall... :-) Given these thoughts and some reflection on the previous posts I have a comprimise building on the idea above. Why not make the set of tools in /rescue easily configurable and divide them into three sets: 1. Those that are in the crunch and linked in /rescue, 2. Those that are in the crunch but aren't linked in /rescue, and 3. Those that aren't yet in the crunch. The first being tools everyone agrees are valuable, the second being tools that at least one person thinks might be useful (not in excess of what's there now), the last being tools everyone can agree are useless (and thus aren't there now). That way if an administrator complains about a missing tool someone said might be useful, the answer is "just create a link." If no one thought of it, it's a PR, a headache for the administrator and a lesson learned. In either case the number of complaints for the tool can drive a review process for inclusion in the next release. -- Adam - (http://people.migus.org/~amigus/) Migus Dot Org - (http://www.migus.org/) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 02:11:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925FF16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 02:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (c211-28-27-130.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.28.27.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC3343FFB for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 02:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (localhost.alcatel.com.au [127.0.0.1])h819Argh087988; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:10:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jeremyp@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au) Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h819AiGD087987; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:10:44 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:10:43 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: "Adam C. Migus" Message-ID: <20030901091043.GA87897@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> References: <20030722153056.GM863@starjuice.net> <200307231042.29371.alex.neyman@auriga.ru> <51381.192.168.4.2.1062397532.squirrel@mail.migus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <51381.192.168.4.2.1062397532.squirrel@mail.migus.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:11:04 -0000 On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 02:25:32AM -0400, Adam C. Migus wrote: >The whole change to dynamic linking for / is a move to "modernize" >FreeBSD. Thus /rescue is a "modern" attempt at creating a /stand. >If we're going to be "modern" we ought to think about what "modern" >sysadmins need to "rescue" their systems. What do you mean by a "modern" sysadmin? Do you mean people who believe everything should be done via a GUI and would be lost if presented with a shell prompt? >/rescue to me implies "what's needed to rescue you're hosed FreeBSD >system." Actually /rescue is only needed when you've managed to hose your /lib, /bin or /sbin directories. If you haven't damaged your root filesystem, you can use all the utilities in /bin and /sbin. If your root is totally hosed, you need to boot from alternate media (eg a fixit CD-ROM). Excluding hamfisted sysadmins pointing "rm" at the wrong directory, /rescue is probably going to be of most use to developers who have managed to a "make world" at an inopportune time and installed a non-functional ld.so or similar. >Finally, this argument essentially comes down to space savings vs. >ability to rescue the system. Is 100K of disk space worth 2 hours >of time due to a missing tool? Any missing tool is probably available on the fixit CD-ROM. >Why not make the set of tools in /rescue easily configurable and >divide them into three sets: > >1. Those that are in the crunch and linked in /rescue, >2. Those that are in the crunch but aren't linked in /rescue, and >3. Those that aren't yet in the crunch. > >The first being tools everyone agrees are valuable, the second being >tools that at least one person thinks might be useful (not in excess >of what's there now), the last being tools everyone can agree are >useless (and thus aren't there now). There doesn't seem to be any reason for the second category. The prime driver for /rescue is size. Once you've included a utility within the crunch, you've taken the size hit so you might as well include the link. >That way if an administrator complains about a missing tool someone >said might be useful, the answer is "just create a link." And the administrator has a whinge about the #$@!%@* idiots who made him waste hours waiting for a response to his e-mail when they could have created the link to start with. This doesn't strike me as being of benefit to anyone. Peter From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 08:36:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBC716A4C4 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3AB43FBF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:36:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: from garple.migus.org ([68.55.83.100]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <200309011536240140017897e>; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:36:24 +0000 Received: from garple.migus.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FaMqX082401; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:36:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h81FaLBe082400; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:36:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: garple.migus.org: www set sender to adam@migus.org using -f Received: from 192.168.4.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user adam) by mail.migus.org with HTTP; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <51777.192.168.4.2.1062430581.squirrel@mail.migus.org> In-Reply-To: <20030901091043.GA87897@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> References: <20030722153056.GM863@starjuice.net> <200307231042.29371.alex.neyman@auriga.ru> <51381.192.168.4.2.1062397532.squirrel@mail.migus.org> <20030901091043.GA87897@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam C. Migus" To: "Peter Jeremy" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PRIORITY_NO_NAME, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:36:26 -0000 Peter Jeremy said: > On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 02:25:32AM -0400, Adam C. Migus wrote: >>The whole change to dynamic linking for / is a move to "modernize"acquire >>FreeBSD. Thus /rescue is a "modern" attempt at creating a /stand. >>If we're going to be "modern" we ought to think about what "modern" >>sysadmins need to "rescue" their systems. > > What do you mean by a "modern" sysadmin? Do you mean people who > believe everything should be done via a GUI and would be lost if > presented with a shell prompt? > negligibleconvenient My apologies if this comment offends you based on what it doesn't say. A "modern" sysadmin could, I suppose fit, your description or could simply be a very intelligent young person six months out of college who has yet to aquire the skills of a more experienced sysadmin. I suppose it could also be an office administrator forced to become a system administrator due to downsizing at his or her company. >>/rescue to me implies "what's needed to rescue you're hosed FreeBSD >>system." > > Actually /rescue is only needed when you've managed to hose your > /lib, /bin or /sbin directories. If you haven't damaged your root > filesystem, you can use all the utilities in /bin and /sbin. If > your root is totally hosed, you need to boot from alternate media > (eg a fixit CD-ROM). > > Excluding hamfisted sysadmins pointing "rm" at the wrong directory, > /rescue is probably going to be of most use to developers who have > managed to a "make world" at an inopportune time and installed a > non-functional ld.so or similar. > Ok, to rephrase: "what's needed to rescue your (fix the typo while I'm here) hosed FreeBSD system, which you hosed by toasting your /lib." >>Finally, this argument essentially comes down to space savings vs. >>ability to rescue the system. Is 100K of disk space worth 2 hours >>of time due to a missing tool? > > Any missing tool is probably available on the fixit CD-ROM. > What if you don't have a CD-ROM? >>Why not make the set of tools in /rescue easily configurable and >>divide them into three sets: >> >>1. Those that are in the crunch and linked in /rescue, >>2. Those that are in the crunch but aren't linked in /rescue, and >>3. Those that aren't yet in the crunch. >> >>The first being tools everyone agrees are valuable, the second >> being >>tools that at least one person thinks might be useful (not in >> excess >>of what's there now), the last being tools everyone can agree are >>useless (and thus aren't there now). > > There doesn't seem to be any reason for the second category. The > prime driver for /rescue is size. Once you've included a utility > within the crunch, you've taken the size hit so you might as well > include the link. > >>That way if an administrator complains about a missing tool someone >>said might be useful, the answer is "just create a link." > > And the administrator has a whinge about the #$@!%@* idiots who > made him waste hours waiting for a response to his e-mail when they > could have created the link to start with. This doesn't strike me > as being of benefit to anyone. > > Peter > I really think you missed the whole point of the post. I didn't post to argue. I posted a solution that provides a way to allow the FreeBSD community to trim or grow /rescue to fit the needs of it's users. The space savings is negligable on most systems and making the list of programs easily configurable is a convienient way of limiting the size for systems in which space is critical. -- Adam - (http://people.migus.org/~amigus/) Migus Dot Org - (http://www.migus.org/) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 07:39:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6BE16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yadt.co.uk (yadt.demon.co.uk [158.152.4.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C8B743FE3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: (qmail 81645 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2003 14:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gattaca.yadt.co.uk) (@10.0.0.2) by yadt.demon.co.uk with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 14:39:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 77169 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Sep 2003 14:39:48 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:39:48 +0100 From: David Taylor To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:39:54 -0000 (I hope this is the right list) Currently, pkg_delete's manpage states: -f Force removal of the package, even if a dependency is recorded or the deinstall or require script fails. It fails to mention that if -f is specified it will also delete any files where the MD5 checksum is incorrect. I have now been repeatedly bitten by portupgrade wiping my configuration information because it specifies -f (as it must, in order to remove packages which are still 'in use' by other packages). So, I have a proposal: Create two seperate flags (open to ideas for what to call them, say '-F' and '-m'), which work as follows: -F works as '-f' is currently documented. -m ignores MD5 checksums Then change -f: -f backwards compatability (activates -F and -m) Then portupgrade could be changed to use '-F' instead of '-f' (or whatever it is eventually called), and should stop deleting config files. Any comments? -- David Taylor davidt@yadt.co.uk "The future just ain't what it used to be" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 07:44:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EC416A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hysteria.spc.org (hysteria.spc.org [195.206.69.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D9CA43FF9 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:44:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bms@hysteria.spc.org) Received: (qmail 16109 invoked by uid 5013); 3 Sep 2003 14:41:00 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:41:00 +0100 From: Bruce M Simpson To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903144100.GJ18369@spc.org> References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: SPC Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:44:21 -0000 On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:39:48PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > (I hope this is the right list) Certainly is, although letting ports people know of an intended change wouldn't hurt. > Then portupgrade could be changed to use '-F' instead of '-f' (or whatever > it is eventually called), and should stop deleting config files. I'm definitely in favour. Wiping config files is Bad. I have been bitten by this before. BMS From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 07:47:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09AEB16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from procyon.firepipe.net (procyon.firepipe.net [198.78.66.151]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9446B43F85 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@csociety.org) Received: by procyon.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6234B260B5; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:47:34 -0700 From: Will Andrews To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:47:35 -0000 On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:39:48PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > It fails to mention that if -f is specified it will also delete any files > where the MD5 checksum is incorrect. I have now been repeatedly bitten by > portupgrade wiping my configuration information because it specifies -f > (as it must, in order to remove packages which are still 'in use' by other > packages). Wrong way to fix the problem. Make the ports install sample config files and only add those to the plist, not the actual ones. Regards, -- wca From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 07:55:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD33A16A4C0 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yadt.co.uk (yadt.demon.co.uk [158.152.4.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D21A43FE0 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: (qmail 81748 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2003 14:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gattaca.yadt.co.uk) (@10.0.0.2) by yadt.demon.co.uk with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 14:55:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 90978 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Sep 2003 14:55:31 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:55:30 +0100 From: David Taylor To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903145530.GA36521@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:55:36 -0000 On Wed, 03 Sep 2003, Will Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:39:48PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > > It fails to mention that if -f is specified it will also delete any files > > where the MD5 checksum is incorrect. I have now been repeatedly bitten by > > portupgrade wiping my configuration information because it specifies -f > > (as it must, in order to remove packages which are still 'in use' by other > > packages). > > Wrong way to fix the problem. Make the ports install sample > config files and only add those to the plist, not the actual ones. I agree that ports should be fixed to install config files in the correct way. However, pkg_delete is still broken -- either the manpage should be fixed to make it explicitly clear that using -f will result in MD5 checksums being ignored, or the user should be given the option. Since portupgrade _needs_ to ignore dependencies, it currently has to use the -f flag. It has no reason to delete files that the user has modified, unless it is asked to. It may not be the correct solution to the problem I mentioned, but it is a quick workaround that will prevent my config files being wiped when I run portupgrade, at least until all the ports are fixed -- which could take a while -- I submitted a patch to the (now ex, I think) maintainer of innd, but it was never committed, and became out of date. It is also a solution to a real problem -- there is no way to override package dependencies without also overriding MD5 checksums. I was originally intending to attach a patch, but after looking at the code it appears it will not be as clean and as straightforward as I had hoped, so I am attempting to confirm it is a desired feature before doing the work. If it is decided it is not wanted, I will probably end up creating a quick hack for my own use anyway. -- David Taylor davidt@yadt.co.uk "The future just ain't what it used to be" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 08:06:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F098816A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gandalf.online.bg (gandalf.online.bg [217.75.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C466343FF5 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roam@ringlet.net) Received: (qmail 19008 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2003 14:58:45 -0000 Received: from office.sbnd.net (HELO straylight.ringlet.net) (217.75.140.130) by gandalf.online.bg with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 14:58:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 65406 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Sep 2003 15:06:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:06:23 +0300 From: Peter Pentchev To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903150623.GT707@straylight.oblivion.bg> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vdqwC0msT4ilQ2it" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:06:28 -0000 --vdqwC0msT4ilQ2it Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 07:47:34AM -0700, Will Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:39:48PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > > It fails to mention that if -f is specified it will also delete any fil= es > > where the MD5 checksum is incorrect. I have now been repeatedly bitten= by > > portupgrade wiping my configuration information because it specifies -f > > (as it must, in order to remove packages which are still 'in use' by ot= her > > packages). >=20 > Wrong way to fix the problem. Make the ports install sample > config files and only add those to the plist, not the actual ones. Exactly. Look at www/apache13/pkg-plist for an example (of course, there are lots of others, this is just the example I come across most often). G'luck, Peter --=20 Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@sbnd.net roam@FreeBSD.org PGP key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553 I am not the subject of this sentence. --vdqwC0msT4ilQ2it Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/VgNv7Ri2jRYZRVMRAm8GAKC/yYWC/gJItPwsLq9ynr7a9pVVhwCeMv+u jE+C665N1mQG8aRUksuBms8= =+qpO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vdqwC0msT4ilQ2it-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 11:29:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B7016A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yadt.co.uk (yadt.demon.co.uk [158.152.4.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1EC6543FE3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davidt@yadt.co.uk) Received: (qmail 82413 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2003 18:29:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gattaca.yadt.co.uk) (@10.0.0.2) by yadt.demon.co.uk with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 18:29:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 11632 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Sep 2003 18:29:26 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:29:25 +0100 From: David Taylor To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903182925.GA79913@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:29:32 -0000 On Wed, 03 Sep 2003, Will Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:39:48PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > > It fails to mention that if -f is specified it will also delete any files > > where the MD5 checksum is incorrect. I have now been repeatedly bitten by > > portupgrade wiping my configuration information because it specifies -f > > (as it must, in order to remove packages which are still 'in use' by other > > packages). > > Wrong way to fix the problem. Make the ports install sample > config files and only add those to the plist, not the actual ones. > As I stated in my previous reply, I am aware this is a real problem (which I would also like to fix, in a more 'proper' way than the pkg_delete patch), so I have another suggestion. However, I beleive this suggestion has been made repeatedly before, but noone has ever come to an agreement, mainly because noone has ever done much to make it happen. The suggestion is, to use a mergemaster style tool to handle port/pkg config files. Whilst we're at it, the base system mergmaster could (optionally?) use the new system to. The main features I could see as desirable would be: Package/port installed config files will not overwrite any files. Deinstalling packages/ports will not by default remove config data. Merging of changes from distributed config files against local versions. I have an idea which appears to satisfy all of those goals, but unfortunately uses RCS. It may turn out it would be easier to use CVS. I would prefer to use a non RCS/CVS tool, because they are fairly 'difficult' tools, and making users use them as part of the ports system is not perhaps a great idea. Hopefully the needs of the config system would not tickle any bugs in RCS/CVS and can use other tools around the rcs/cvs commands, to prevent users shooting themselves in the foot. Enough babbling, the idea essentially is: (Bad ASCII Art diagram 1: Example rcs 'tree' for a config file) dist_1 -> dist_2 -> dist_3 -> dist_4 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 \ \ \ \ \ \ | | | user_1a user_2a user_3a 1.1.1.1 1.2.1.1 1.3.1.1 | | | | user_1b user_2b 1.1.1.2 1.2.1.2 Ports (using some tool [pkgcfg_install ?]) install new config files on to the head branch (dist_* in the diagram). Another user tool (pkgcfg_merge) merges any differences, and checks in the user accepted version on to the corresponding branch: For dist_1 it would display the new file, and store the editted version (if different) on the 1.1.1 branch. For dist_2 it would display a 3 way diff style view of the changes between dist_1 -> dist_2, merged into user_1b (the tip of the 1.1.1 branch). The revision (or branch) number of the latest user revision would need to be stored somewhere (probably in /var/db/pkg). Thus, ports could add new config files to the rcs file without affecting users, who could simply run 'pkgcfg_merge' to view diffs of what has changed. Upon deinstallation, nothing need happen -- although the config file could be backed up in to the rcs file, then removed. On re-installation, a port could detect the existing config file, and check that out. The rcs file could be optionally removed on deinstallation, and a tool would be able to allow their removal fairly easy. If I could find a better way than RCS/CVS to do this, I would probably starting hacking at it tomorrow some time. Unless someone can see an obvious flaw in my grand scheme? :) -- David Taylor davidt@yadt.co.uk "The future just ain't what it used to be" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 12:14:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5C916A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.qc.uunet.ca (mail1.qc.uunet.ca [198.168.54.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A135343FE0 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anarcat@espresso-com.com) Received: from xtanbul.studio.espresso-com.com ([216.94.147.57]) by mail1.qc.uunet.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JETsB030519 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:14:29 -0400 Received: from anarcat by xtanbul.studio.espresso-com.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ud5I-0005Ck-00 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:14:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:14:28 -0400 From: The Anarcat To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903191427.GE541@xtanbul> References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> <20030903182925.GA79913@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903182925.GA79913@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: The Anarcat Subject: config files in packages (Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:14:32 -0000 (This is just moot since I have absolutely no time to implement this, but it's food for thought i have been digesting for a long time now) Debian adopted what I think is an elegant solution to this problem. The configuration files are marked as such in the package. When deinstalling, you must explicitely ask it if you want the configuration files to be removed. When upgrading or installing over, the package "knows" the old MD5 of the config files, so if they match (ie the config wasn't modified), they're overwritten. If the md5 don't match (ie the config was modified), the user is presented with an interface similar to that of mergemaster (minus the merge capabilities, unfortunatly). I think this scheme could be generalized to all the files in the package. What I would see for our pkg_tools is the following: 1- overwriting of unmodified files 2- merging of modified files (1) already works, provided that we don't use the -f flag to pkg_delete, since the old files simply get deleted. (2) would need a better integration between pkg_add and pkg_delete, because problem is right now, unless I'm mistaken, a package upgrade is made in 2 seperate process that don't really talk to each other: pkg_delete and pkg_add. The way I see it, ideally, pkg_add should be able to call pkg_delete on the old package. When files would be left behind, it would mean that they were modified outside the package system and that we need to merge. Anyways, pkg_add shouldn't overwrite already existing files. So the most basic solution to this whole problem would be to hack pkg_add to make it merge with existing non-binary files and ask in case of binary. Doing this would allow us to get out of the "default config" and "working config" scheme that is hard to maintain. When using such a scheme, if a major configuration parameter changes, you're SOL unless you diff against the your copy of the config. The pkg_add hack could take care of that. But then there's also the problem of make install in the ports. We would need a custom install target for configuration files that would check for existence before installing. This could actually be a little script that is called by pkg_add and do-install for certain files. Just my $CA 0,02... A. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 13:04:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C9216A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-107-253.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.107.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC1544011 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D766766B04 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C702AA40; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:04:23 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030903200423.GC51382@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:04:55 -0000 --O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:39:48PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > Then portupgrade could be changed to use '-F' instead of '-f' (or whatever > it is eventually called), and should stop deleting config files. >=20 > Any comments? It's a bug for packages to list configuration files in the plist. Please send-pr about any that you find doing so. Kris --O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/VklHWry0BWjoQKURAjWtAJ9IqvzmXOD98HYkv9JgJMn3CNjERQCeMtQz NGHoX33+Ed/5NZ6HQUSzqZY= =vUqh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 13:07:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C73D16A53E for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-107-253.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.107.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C8243F75 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062AE66B04; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0D4FDA40; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:06:58 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: The Anarcat Message-ID: <20030903200658.GD51382@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> <20030903182925.GA79913@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903191427.GE541@xtanbul> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u65IjBhB3TIa72Vp" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903191427.GE541@xtanbul> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: config files in packages (Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:07:38 -0000 --u65IjBhB3TIa72Vp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:14:28PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > Debian adopted what I think is an elegant solution to this > problem. The configuration files are marked as such in the > package. When deinstalling, you must explicitely ask it if you want > the configuration files to be removed. Most well-written packages install a sample config file, copy it to the real config file if one does not exist (and it is appropriate to do so), then only remove the real config file at deinstall time iff it does not differ from the sample config file. See any number of port plists for the implementation of this. Kris --u65IjBhB3TIa72Vp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/VkniWry0BWjoQKURAlhdAKCnvLAumhqWzHvPnbXy7Mu9Lt9aXACg43Ny uPGslQJkb+Q1SWMSxuIEN04= =KrUS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u65IjBhB3TIa72Vp-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 17:44:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A6716A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from procyon.firepipe.net (procyon.firepipe.net [198.78.66.151]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546E143FEC for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@csociety.org) Received: by procyon.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8EA4445FEF; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:44:11 -0700 From: Will Andrews To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030904004411.GB47671@procyon.firepipe.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net> <20030903145530.GA36521@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903145530.GA36521@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: (proposal) new flag for pkg_delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:44:13 -0000 On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:55:30PM +0100, David Taylor wrote: > However, pkg_delete is still broken -- either the manpage should be fixed > to make it explicitly clear that using -f will result in MD5 checksums > being ignored, or the user should be given the option. I wouldn't call it "broken" per se. Sometimes it does have undesirable effects, but sometimes not. In any case, I have no objection to having your patch implemented, as long as previous functionality remains unchanged. Whether or not portupgrade should adopt this feature is another question. What can be done if there are files (not config files) whose MD5 checksums don't match, once the package is deleted? Moreover, what if it's a lot of files? Regards, -- wca From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 01:30:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6E116A4BF; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exc-1.cc.CyberCity.dk (esplanaden.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD42F43FBD; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk ([172.16.7.254]) by exc-1.cc.CyberCity.dk over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:30:11 +0200 Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h848F4ev001032; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:15:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:15:04 +0200 Message-ID: <1031.1062663304@critter.freebsd.dk> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2003 08:30:11.0200 (UTC) FILETIME=[C17C3000:01C372BE] Subject: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 08:30:14 -0000 I am committing a BURN_BRIDGES patch which puts the density select devices of the floppy driver and the 'a' and 'c' compat partitions of the CD drivers on the chopping block for 6-current. There is no loss of functionality from this, the fdcontrol(8) utility allows even greater flexibility than the density select devices do for floppies and the 'a' and 'c' compat parititons can be simulated with symlinks from userland should any critical application be found to have hardcoded paths. The use of device cloning functions in disk drivers under GEOM is not as such impossible, but it would be quite complicated and I would rather avoid it unless we have much better killer apps for it than these two uses. As soon as these uses of cloning code has been removed, I will move the floppy and CD drivers under GEOM, paving the way for the significant changes to the buf/VM system which some of you have already heard rumours about. (more will emerge after BSDcon'03) And now comes the bit which I would like to offer for discussion: Should we do this for 5.2 instead ? By pulling this into 5.2, the divergence between 5-stable and 6-current can be managed much better, and we will be able to backport much more from 6-current to 5-stable than we would be able to otherwise. If we do not do this I fear that it will be close to impossible to MFC filesystem work in practice. And let me repeat: the only loss of functionality is the density select devices for floppy disks which will have to be done with the fdcontrol(8) utility instead. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 12:35:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D1B16A4D6 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DC443FDF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 11413 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2003 19:35:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 4 Sep 2003 19:35:17 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JZE6Y002675; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:35:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from trb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:35:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Technical Review Board To: arch@FreeBSD.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: trb@FreeBSD.org Subject: Resolution of timer acquisition code dispute X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:35:21 -0000 After considering the arguments from interested parties, the TRB voted unanimously to revert the removal of the timer acqusition code as well as the pca(4) driver. The TRB has noted that the API is not ideal but does not think that it can be removed without any deprecation period while it is in active use. The TRB does think that it would be a good idea to mark the code with BURN_BRIDGES and deprecate it for 6.0. This should give the consumers of this API ample time to implement a more suitable alternative. -- John Baldwin (speaking for the TRB) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 13:24:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3031A16A4C0 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail13.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4ED44005 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 25396 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2003 20:24:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 4 Sep 2003 20:24:02 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84KNx6Y002875; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:24:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1031.1062663304@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 16:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Poul-Henning Kamp X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: RE: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:24:04 -0000 [ @current trimmed, arch@ should generate a long enough thread on it own ] On 04-Sep-2003 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > I am committing a BURN_BRIDGES patch which puts the density select > devices of the floppy driver and the 'a' and 'c' compat partitions of > the CD drivers on the chopping block for 6-current. My initial reaction is that this sounds ok to me. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 13:39:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463EF16A4BF; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8100543FF7; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:39:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org ([12.233.125.100]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2003090420394401400q7d07e>; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:39:45 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA42564; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:39:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: RE: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:39:46 -0000 I certainly agree about the 'a' and 'c' devices. I'm not so sure that the density devices should go. They don't fit very well into the 'geom' world however so I can see that it may be better to provide a better way of selecting densities.. (of course I doubt there will be any more NEW 'floppy' densities as the time of the floppy disk is past, but it may still be worth while being able to write 720K floppies for some people.. I know of one industrial NC-lathe that takes its patters in on a 720K floppy (though I don't have to deal with it). It would probably be enough to be able to read and rewrite such a floppy and not neccesarily to create a new one from scratch.. (i.e. auto-select from existing media may be enough). maybe with an ioclt to select the default. The 'density' devices are defintly expendable if there are other ways to do that and if we can convince ourselves that no-one uses other densities then I have no quibbles.. Do we want to support other densities? An ioctl to select the right member of fd_types[] should not be difficult fopr setting a default value.. On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, John Baldwin wrote: > [ @current trimmed, arch@ should generate a long enough thread on it own ] > > On 04-Sep-2003 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > I am committing a BURN_BRIDGES patch which puts the density select > > devices of the floppy driver and the 'a' and 'c' compat partitions of > > the CD drivers on the chopping block for 6-current. > > My initial reaction is that this sounds ok to me. > > -- > > John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 13:59:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77AC16A4BF; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D1F43FE5; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84KxTTI002401; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:59:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Julian Elischer From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 13:39:43 PDT." Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:59:29 +0200 Message-ID: <2400.1062709169@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:59:41 -0000 In message , Ju lian Elischer writes: >I certainly agree about the 'a' and 'c' devices. > >I'm not so sure that the density devices should go. > > [...] > >An ioctl to select the right member of fd_types[] >should not be difficult fopr setting a default value.. Man fdcontrol(8) ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 14:34:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B04316A4BF; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB4643F3F; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84LYZJV009331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.1) id h84LYUu34134; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:34:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16215.45030.31344.503298@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:34:30 -0400 (EDT) To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <1031.1062663304@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <1031.1062663304@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:34:37 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > As soon as these uses of cloning code has been removed, I will move > the floppy and CD drivers under GEOM, paving the way for the > significant changes to the buf/VM system which some of you have > already heard rumours about. (more will emerge after BSDcon'03) > > And now comes the bit which I would like to offer for discussion: > > Should we do this for 5.2 instead ? > I think this sounds good. Can you give a hint as to what you mean by the significant buf/VM system changes? Are you talking about removing the vnode detour for drivers and giving drivers who want it access to the struct file? Drew From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 14:40:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AE816A4C0; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D41643FCB; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84LeITI002999; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:40:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Andrew Gallatin From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:34:30 EDT." <16215.45030.31344.503298@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 23:40:18 +0200 Message-ID: <2998.1062711618@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:40:30 -0000 In message <16215.45030.31344.503298@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu>, Andrew Gallatin writes: >Can you give a hint as to what you mean by the significant buf/VM >system changes? Are you talking about removing the vnode detour for >drivers and giving drivers who want it access to the struct file? Well, there really isn't more than that at this point, we plan to talk about it at BSDcon03 and try to settle on our strategy for the entire area, and if we manage that we'll communicate it of course. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 19:13:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E50716A4BF; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFF243F75; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org ([12.233.125.100]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20030905021309015000ge34e>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:13:09 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA45352; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:13:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <2400.1062709169@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DISCUSSION: /dev/fd%d.%d and /dev/{a}cd%d[ac] to be discontinued ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:13:11 -0000 On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Ju > lian Elischer writes: > >I certainly agree about the 'a' and 'c' devices. > > > >I'm not so sure that the density devices should go. > > > > [...] > > > >An ioctl to select the right member of fd_types[] > >should not be difficult fopr setting a default value.. > > Man fdcontrol(8) ? I looked a tht ecode and couuldn't convince myself (with a brief look) that it all worked. if it does work as advertised then I see no reason to keep the density devices. > > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 23:48:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751E816A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD9143FBD for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: from garple.migus.org ([68.55.83.100]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20030905064807016006gvjde>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:48:07 +0000 Received: from garple.migus.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h856m6qX024030; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:48:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h856m6sK024029; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:48:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: garple.migus.org: www set sender to adam@migus.org using -f Received: from 192.168.4.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user adam) by mail.migus.org with HTTP; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <49222.192.168.4.2.1062744486.squirrel@mail.migus.org> In-Reply-To: <20030903200658.GD51382@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030903143948.GA61515@gattaca.yadt.co.uk><20030903144734.GZ47671@procyon.firepipe.net><20030903182925.GA79913@gattaca.yadt.co.uk> <20030903191427.GE541@xtanbul> <20030903200658.GD51382@rot13.obsecurity.org> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 02:48:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam C. Migus" To: "Kris Kennaway" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,PRIORITY_NO_NAME, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: config files in packages (Re: (proposal) new flag forpkg_delete) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 06:48:09 -0000 Kris Kennaway said: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:14:28PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > >> Debian adopted what I think is an elegant solution to this >> problem. The configuration files are marked as such in the >> package. When deinstalling, you must explicitely ask it if you >> want >> the configuration files to be removed. > > Most well-written packages install a sample config file, copy it to > the real config file if one does not exist (and it is appropriate to > do so), then only remove the real config file at deinstall time iff > it > does not differ from the sample config file. See any number of port > plists for the implementation of this. > > Kris This approach works great assuming every port is well written, but every port isn't well written. Considering absence of this behavior a bug is fine if you want a million PR's, a lot of discouraged port maintainers and, if/when they do get fixed, a lot of newbies wondering why their FreeBSD boxes have a million -dist files but they're Linux boxes don't yet packages always seem to install and uninstall cleanly. Also, FWIW Digital UNIX used to keep a copy of default configuration files around as .proto.. IIRC for reference and many administrators removed them siting quite a few different reasons for doing so. Once a -dist file is removed, the pkg_delete and subsequent package creates (if you use portupgrade -Rap for example) will fail due to a missing package file. I agree with the something like the Debian approach but perhaps with more emphasis on comparison and automation than user interaction. It takes the worry out of the hands of the port maintainers, it keeps users from screwing up their installations, it's been done and shown to work it can be improved by offering a diff feature. -- Adam - (http://people.migus.org/~amigus/) Migus Dot Org - (http://www.migus.org/) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 14:16:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A660E16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0995C43F93 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003090521164601400dndfle>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:16:46 +0000 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: RFC: NO_FOO knobs in make.conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:16:47 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, Seems this topic is a perennial favorite, so I'd like to establish general agreement on a policy to deal with this going forward. I propose the following "guidelines" for discussion: 1. All new knobs, in all branches, should have WORD_SEPERATORS between distinct English words. This aids understanding of what the knob means for English speakers, and more importantly, those for whom English is not their first language. That, and actually having a standard are the two main reasons I'm proposing this version. 2. Assuming that adequate volunteer resources can be found, all knobs in HEAD should be converted to the WORD_SEP format, and compatibility shims added, preferably with a suitable warning. This should happen prior to the 6-current branch. 3. At some point in the future, the shims in 2. will be removed in 6-current. 4. The shims from 2. should probably not be removed in the eventual RELENG_5. (I'm open on this, I just want to be sure we get it down "on paper.") 5. Conversion of the knobs should never be backported to RELENG_4 Once we get general consensus (not universal agreement :) on this, I'll take responsibility for marshaling the aforementioned volunteer resources. Doug - -- This .signature sanitized for your protection -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/WP0+yIakK9Wy8PsRAiheAJ9VmnseSIbVAeBumCiQmfCZ77a9PgCfdVeO 9dmR6vlUnn2z997AUT7f6Qw= =m5/e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 16:20:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E5316A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6194400B for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id DA2361435F; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:20:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:20:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: "Adam C. Migus" In-Reply-To: <49222.192.168.4.2.1062744486.squirrel@mail.migus.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: config files in packages (Re: (proposal) new flagforpkg_delete) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:20:34 -0000 > This approach works great assuming every port is well written, but > every port isn't well written. Granted. > Considering absence of this behavior a bug is fine if you want a > million PR's, a lot of discouraged port maintainers While the PR system is imperfect, it's the best mechanism for getting bugs fixed that we have. Also, recently the pace of ports PR commits has picked up; if you look at the PR statistics page you'll see this confirmed. Plus, I don't understand why the above will discourage port maintainers. A final note: postings like this don't really create progress. Prototyped code submitted via a PR creates progress, or bugfixes submitted via a PR create progress, or even bug reports submitted via a PR create progress. Even if you write this up as a "desired feature" and submit that as a PR, that would help move things forward. But just saying "it's broke" without any further action really _does_ frustrate folks doing the work. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 17:44:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06A8F16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6B243FF3 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: from garple.migus.org ([68.55.83.100]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003090600440501100ijpdte>; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:44:05 +0000 Received: from garple.migus.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860i4qX032119; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:44:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adam@migus.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by garple.migus.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h860i4XE032118; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:44:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: garple.migus.org: www set sender to adam@migus.org using -f Received: from 192.168.4.2 (SquirrelMail authenticated user adam) by mail.migus.org with HTTP; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <49707.192.168.4.2.1062809044.squirrel@mail.migus.org> In-Reply-To: References: <49222.192.168.4.2.1062744486.squirrel@mail.migus.org> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:44:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adam C. Migus" To: "Mark Linimon" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,PRIORITY_NO_NAME,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES,USER_AGENT,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: config files in packages (Re: (proposal) new flag forpkg_delete) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:44:09 -0000 Mark Linimon said: >> This approach works great assuming every port is well written, but >> every port isn't well written. > > Granted. > >> Considering absence of this behavior a bug is fine if you want a >> million PR's, a lot of discouraged port maintainers > > While the PR system is imperfect, it's the best mechanism for > getting bugs fixed that we have. Also, recently the pace of > ports PR commits has picked up; if you look at the PR statistics > page you'll see this confirmed. > > Plus, I don't understand why the above will discourage port > maintainers.forever > The PR system is great. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. I meant to say that flooding it with bug reports saying "this port deals with configuration files improperly," leaving a lot of port maintainers with the responsibility of adopting a defacto-standard way of dealing with the issue, is not the best way to attack the problem. A port maintainer could find it discouraging if that maintainer didn't know it was a bug in the first place and now has to deal with the fact that a) it is, and b) how they should fix it given there's no "official" solution. > A final note: postings like this don't really create progress. > Prototyped code submitted via a PR creates progress, or bugfixes > submitted via a PR create progress, or even bug reports submitted > via a PR create progress. Even if you write this up as a "desired > feature" and submit that as a PR, that would help move things > forward. > But just saying "it's broke" without any further action really > _does_ frustrate folks doing the work. > > mcl > > > Postings like this could create progress if they were read the right way. My apologies for the your misinterpretation. All I gave you was an opinion. I didn't give you a desired feature. The last time I checked there wasn't an "opinion" mechanism for a PR and if there was, I'd put much more thought into write one, than I did this post. I sit here, at night, reading the mailing lists and if I have an opinion, I share it. That's all I did. I do understand your point and please don't take this post negatively. I'm just trying to say that while I have an opinion on this subject I haven't a clear cut idea on how to best solve it, at this time. If, in future, I do formulate something worthy of a PR, I'll generate one and thank-you for pointing this out. As for my opinion. In summary I think: 1. The PR system is great. 2. Asking port maintainers to solve this problem at all is not the best approach. Doing it with the -dist file method is also not the best solution since it can break if the user deletes the -dist files and you can bank on the fact that many will. Also it will take a long time or forver (which ever comes first) to clean them all up irrespective of how effective the PR system is in reporting the problem. 3. I think that making the ports system itself deal with the issue by making it deal with configuration files as a special case has numerous advantages, solves this problem, makes it easier to solve others, makes it easier to create and maintain ports and won't create a pile of PR's flooding the PR system. -- Adam - (http://people.migus.org/~amigus/) Migus Dot Org - (http://www.migus.org/) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 17:53:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1F016A4BF; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712BF43F75; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h860qiTY075195; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:52:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:38:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20030905.183837.116096286.imp@bsdimp.com> To: DougB@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: NO_FOO knobs in make.conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:53:02 -0000 In message: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Doug Barton writes: : Once we get general consensus (not universal agreement :) on this, I'll : take responsibility for marshaling the aforementioned volunteer : resources. I'd just do it. we've already talked this to death. Lots of people want it, some don't. Every time we talk about it, that's the outcome. Let's just do it and get on with our lives. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 19:31:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A7216A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quic.net (rrcs-central-24-123-205-180.biz.rr.com [24.123.205.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695E343FF7 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from utsl@quic.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1032) by quic.net with local; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 22:31:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:31:33 -0400 To: "Adam C. Migus" Message-ID: <20030906023133.GA4913@quic.net> References: <20030903191427.GE541@xtanbul> <20030903200658.GD51382@rot13.obsecurity.org> <49222.192.168.4.2.1062744486.squirrel@mail.migus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <49222.192.168.4.2.1062744486.squirrel@mail.migus.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Nathan Hawkins cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: config files in packages (Re: (proposal) new flag forpkg_delete) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 02:31:35 -0000 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 02:48:06AM -0400, Adam C. Migus wrote: > > Kris Kennaway said: > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 03:14:28PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > > > >> Debian adopted what I think is an elegant solution to this > >> problem. The configuration files are marked as such in the > >> package. When deinstalling, you must explicitely ask it if you > >> want > >> the configuration files to be removed. To be exact, dpkg marks the package as removed, but having configuration files installed. It then keeps all the files describing the package, which includes the lists of files installed by it. Config files are removed only when the user uses the purge option, at which time all traces of the package go away. > This approach works great assuming every port is well written, but > every port isn't well written. Considering absence of this behavior > a bug is fine if you want a million PR's, a lot of discouraged port > maintainers and, if/when they do get fixed, a lot of newbies > wondering why their FreeBSD boxes have a million -dist files but > they're Linux boxes don't yet packages always seem to install and > uninstall cleanly. It has worked very well for Debian. Debian also has a large bug database... But bugs WRT package installation, removal or upgrades are considered release critical. Such bugs must be fixed, or the package removed before a release. Helps weed out worthless crap packages, and ensures that things you need (ssh or apache come to mind) get fixed pretty quickly. > Also, FWIW Digital UNIX used to keep a copy of default configuration > files around as .proto.. IIRC for reference and many > administrators removed them siting quite a few different reasons for > doing so. Once a -dist file is removed, the pkg_delete and > subsequent package creates (if you use portupgrade -Rap for example) > will fail due to a missing package file. One of the nice points about Debian's approach: once the config files are listed separately, it's easier to have package deletion ignore missing config files. > I agree with the something like the Debian approach but perhaps with > more emphasis on comparison and automation than user interaction. > It takes the worry out of the hands of the port maintainers, it > keeps users from screwing up their installations, it's been done and > shown to work it can be improved by offering a diff feature. Actually, dpkg gives me options to diff or edit in that situation. As a Debian developer, I can tell you that it's very easy: just make a list of configuration files installed by the package. As an administrator, I'm completely happy. Debian has never eaten a config file on me. ---Nathan From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 21:23:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB26416A4BF; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF98043F3F; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-159-39.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.159.39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23714154F6; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:23:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1C7ED20F16; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:23:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:23:22 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20030906042322.GC43951@over-yonder.net> References: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <20030905.183837.116096286.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030905.183837.116096286.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: DougB@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: NO_FOO knobs in make.conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 04:23:27 -0000 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 06:38:37PM -0600 I heard the voice of M. Warner Losh, and lo! it spake thus: > In message: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> > Doug Barton writes: > : Once we get general consensus (not universal agreement :) on this, I'll > : take responsibility for marshaling the aforementioned volunteer > : resources. > > I'd just do it. we've already talked this to death. Lots of people > want it, some don't. Every time we talk about it, that's the > outcome. Let's just do it and get on with our lives. Seconded. "Look everybody, there's a bikeshed over THAT way!" (Quick, while they're not looking) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 23:04:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494A016A4BF; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [212.192.164.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8523443FDF; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danfe@regency.nsu.ru) Received: from mail by mx.nsu.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19vWEU-0000XO-00; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:07:38 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru ([193.124.210.26]) by mx.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19vWEU-0000WK-00; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:07:38 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by regency.nsu.ru (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8666Rvt078840; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:06:27 +0700 (NOVST) (envelope-from danfe@regency.nsu.ru) Received: (from danfe@localhost) by regency.nsu.ru (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8666RwC078817; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:06:27 +0700 (NOVST) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:06:27 +0700 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20030906060627.GD72373@regency.nsu.ru> References: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Envelope-To: DougB@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: NO_FOO knobs in make.conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 06:04:52 -0000 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 02:16:43PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Howdy, > > Seems this topic is a perennial favorite, so I'd like to establish > general agreement on a policy to deal with this going forward. I propose > the following "guidelines" for discussion: [ ... snip ... ] Count my vote in. ;-) ./danfe From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 6 01:42:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2820E16A4BF; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D47E43FBF; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.8/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h868gCtp019166; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 04:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 04:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-Sender: eischen@pcnet5.pcnet.com To: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20030905.183837.116096286.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: DougB@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: NO_FOO knobs in make.conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: deischen@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 08:42:23 -0000 On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <20030905140628.H90946@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> > Doug Barton writes: > : Once we get general consensus (not universal agreement :) on this, I'll > : take responsibility for marshaling the aforementioned volunteer > : resources. > > I'd just do it. we've already talked this to death. Lots of people > want it, some don't. Every time we talk about it, that's the > outcome. Let's just do it and get on with our lives. Or change all the NO*, NO_* to WANT_* and default them to yes. -- Dan Eischen