From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 9:39:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEB637B401; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AB243E4A; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:39:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@celabo.org) Received: from opus.celabo.org (opus.celabo.org [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121D545; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:39:45 -0600 (CST) Received: by opus.celabo.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2FF6558B0; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:37:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:37:06 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: phk@freebsd.org Cc: Stephen Hilton , julian@elischer.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: [OT] another use for freebsd.committers.markers Message-ID: <20030202173706.GD35774@opus.celabo.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , phk@freebsd.org, Stephen Hilton , julian@elischer.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20030202103721.3996ec9c.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> <17680.1044206843@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17680.1044206843@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Url: http://www.celabo.org/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i-ja.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Followups directed to -chat] On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 06:27:23PM +0100, phk@freebsd.org wrote: > In message <20030202103721.3996ec9c.nospam@hiltonbsd.com>, Stephen Hilton write > s: > > >> maybe we should make some sort of geographical registration > >> web page so that people can find each other? > > Well, new committers are allowed to mark themselves in the xearth port: > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/conventions.html > > Committers should know this already. The February 2003 issue of Scientific American has an article that reminded me of this file (xearth/files/freebsd.committers.markers). It is titled `Satellite-Guided Munitions', and describes some nifty kits you can use to upgrade your `cheap' dumb bomb to a smart bomb that can strike within a few meters of the programmed coordinates 90% of the time (or similar accuracy -- I don't have the article in front of me at the moment). Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.celabo.org/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 13:50:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E809237B401 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD22343FC7 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h12LoP3v001739 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:50:25 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: RE: Biggest 419 scam ever Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:50:16 +0100 Message-ID: <005501c2cb05$132bfc80$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Shouldn't we forward this to: 419.fcd@usss.treas.gov for their database? ;) -Stacy > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 13:53:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AA837B401; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B79743F75; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:53:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h12LrB3v001751; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:53:11 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: "'Jacques A. Vidrine'" , Cc: "'Stephen Hilton'" , , Subject: RE: [OT] another use for freebsd.committers.markers Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:53:02 +0100 Message-ID: <005b01c2cb05$760f89c0$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030202173706.GD35774@opus.celabo.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The February 2003 issue of Scientific American has an article that > reminded me of this file (xearth/files/freebsd.committers.markers). > It is titled `Satellite-Guided Munitions', and describes some nifty > kits you can use to upgrade your `cheap' dumb bomb to a smart bomb > that can strike within a few meters of the programmed coordinates 90% > of the time (or similar accuracy -- I don't have the article in front > of me at the moment). > Or, we can forward this file to the authorities with the info that these are possible hiding places for "agents of doom". ;) > Cheers, > -- > Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.celabo.org/ > NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos > jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se -Stacy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 15:37:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7A337B401 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D7643F79 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:37:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA47710152; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4CBAB71; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:37:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E3DABB1.3080306@pantherdragon.org> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 15:37:21 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20030119 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: John Martinez , barbish@a1poweruser.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: <3417F02C-35FF-11D7-9E46-0003937C0B34@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <3417F02C-35FF-11D7-9E46-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:07 AM -0800 2003/02/01, John Martinez wrote: >>> Seven soles lost in the disaster. >> >> Yeah, what a tragedy for our nation. > > I guess they have to rename the agency again. After Challenger blew > up, I heard that NASA stood for Need Another Seven Astronauts. I > guess now it will have to be NASAA -- Need Another Seven Astronauts > Again. > > 0.5 ;-0 I found it a little odd that both shuttles' names start with C and Columbia blew within a week of the Challenger explosion's aniversary. >> I hope this doesn't affect our space program negatively, but we >> will recover from this. > > It was almost three years after Challenger before we finally put > another shuttle in space. It's probably going to be two to three > years before we launch another shuttle, assuming we do launch any > more shuttles. They said on the news that they're putting things off until June, when they will need to make another grocery run for the space station. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 16:27:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C1A37B401; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7A243F3F; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0402.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.147] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18fUSD-0004Yk-00; Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:27:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3DB711.C80119A3@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:25:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stacy Olivas Cc: "'Jacques A. Vidrine'" , phk@FreeBSD.ORG, 'Stephen Hilton' , julian@elischer.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] another use for freebsd.committers.markers References: <005b01c2cb05$760f89c0$0502000a@sentinel> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a474d2a290bd18d30e06f32c097446025fa2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stacy Olivas wrote: > > The February 2003 issue of Scientific American has an article that > > reminded me of this file (xearth/files/freebsd.committers.markers). > > It is titled `Satellite-Guided Munitions', and describes some nifty > > kits you can use to upgrade your `cheap' dumb bomb to a smart bomb > > that can strike within a few meters of the programmed coordinates 90% > > of the time (or similar accuracy -- I don't have the article in front > > of me at the moment). > > > > Or, we can forward this file to the authorities with the info > that these are possible hiding places for "agents of doom". ;) I think you misread the file name; it wasn't: xearth/files/linux.committers.markers -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 16:29:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C1137B401; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B377643F43; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h130TI3v002826; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 01:29:18 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: "'Terry Lambert'" Cc: "'Jacques A. Vidrine'" , , "'Stephen Hilton'" , , Subject: RE: [OT] another use for freebsd.committers.markers Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 01:29:09 +0100 Message-ID: <007101c2cb1b$4541c950$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3E3DB711.C80119A3@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > The February 2003 issue of Scientific American has an article that > > > reminded me of this file > (xearth/files/freebsd.committers.markers). > > > It is titled `Satellite-Guided Munitions', and describes > some nifty > > > kits you can use to upgrade your `cheap' dumb bomb to a smart bomb > > > that can strike within a few meters of the programmed > coordinates 90% > > > of the time (or similar accuracy -- I don't have the > article in front > > > of me at the moment). > > > > > > > Or, we can forward this file to the authorities with the info > > that these are possible hiding places for "agents of doom". ;) > > I think you misread the file name; it wasn't: > > xearth/files/linux.committers.markers > oops, my bust. :) > -- Terry > -Stacy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 16:31:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA11337B401 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be (c3po.skynet.be [195.238.3.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EB443F79 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by c3po.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h130VVYR000822; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 01:31:33 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E3DABB1.3080306@pantherdragon.org> References: <3417F02C-35FF-11D7-9E46-0003937C0B34@mac.com> <3E3DABB1.3080306@pantherdragon.org> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 01:31:48 +0100 To: Darren Pilgrim From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: Brad Knowles , John Martinez , barbish@a1poweruser.com, chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:37 PM -0800 2003/02/02, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > I found it a little odd that both shuttles' names start with C and > Columbia blew within a week of the Challenger explosion's aniversary. They are the only two shuttles whose names began with C, and Columbia blew up just two days after the 17th anniversary of the Challenger disaster. > They said on the news that they're putting things off until June, when > they will need to make another grocery run for the space station. I'll believe that when I see it. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 18:24:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48C437B401 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377B343F75 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h132ObrJ003835 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([68.39.203.40]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9PO1000.UQN; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:24:36 -0800 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:24:34 -0500 Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: John Martinez , , chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Brad Knowles From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 08:38 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:07 AM -0800 2003/02/01, John Martinez wrote: > > It was almost three years after Challenger before we finally put > another shuttle in space. It's probably going to be two to three > years before we launch another shuttle, assuming we do launch any more > shuttles. > This is doubtful due to the tone in the news conferences Remember some differences from challenger: 1. NASA was prepared to deal with an accident this time. Challenger they were caught with their pants down. 2. Everything points to a malfunction/failure not a design flaw. 3. > What's going to happen to the space station in the meanwhile? What > about the people there now? With Russian commitment having crumbled, > are we going to leave those people to die? Assuming they come back > safely, do we abandon the ISS, the way we abandoned the previous two > space stations? > > Wont happen, this is way to important to NASA, and the rest of the world. This is not a US project, but a world project. > Moreover, just exactly how is Bush going to handle four simultaneous > crises -- continuing to hunt down Al Qaeda, going after Sadam, dealing > with North Korea, and now dealing with the aftermath of Columbia? > IMO, this is the end of his presidency. He tried to do too many > things at the same time, and go after too many old enemies at the same > time. > Don't say the sky is falling (sorry for the bad pun). But I don't think you can say that. His speech was horrible though. Way to cold and too much rhetoric. They kept playing reagans speech over and over and listening to that then bush's. Well lets say bush has a long way to go imho. >> My heart and prayers go out to the families of the astronauts. > > Mine too. I just hope that we can prove that there wasn't a bomb or > sabotage involved, because otherwise we've just seen the start of > WWIII. The Israelis have nuclear capability, and they've never been > shy to use any force they deem fit when they think they have enough > evidence to convince themselves. > Yes. It wasn't a terrorist is my gut feeling. To have it blow up on re-entry 200,000 feet up. They couldnt do it with a missile - we'd have seen it. As for a bomb, from todays conference it doesn't sound like that. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 18:46:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDD237B401 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6D043E4A for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h132kY3J018428 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:46:34 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:46:34 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 03 February 2003 13:24, Larry Sica wrote: > > sabotage involved, because otherwise we've just seen the start of > > WWIII. The Israelis have nuclear capability, and they've never been > > Yes. It wasn't a terrorist is my gut feeling. To have it blow up on > re-entry 200,000 feet up. They couldnt do it with a missile - we'd > have seen it. As for a bomb, from todays conference it doesn't sound > like that. If what NASA is said in their speech earlier today is factual, then it co= uld=20 not have been a bomb, it was the external sensors which had the abnormal=20 sensor readings. The internal ones all said fine. Although they did add a= big=20 disclaimer that the second report is usally not very accurate/correct, at= the=20 start/end of their press release! - jacob =20 Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 21:38:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0BF37B401; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from jlonline.com (pip15.ptt.js.cn [61.155.13.245]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3539C43F9B; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:38:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from xzht@public.xz.js.cn) Received: from wrh([61.177.212.133]) by js.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.2) with SMTP id jmd83e3e28c3; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:33:47 +0800 Reply-To: xzht@163.com From: ÄäÃû <> To: ÍøÂçÊÓƵ»áÒé¡¢ÍøÂçÔ¶³Ì½ÌѧºÍ¼à¿Øϵͳ <> Subject: ³¬Ò»Á÷ÍøÂçÊÓƵ»áÒé¡¢Ãâ·Ñµç»°¡¢Ô¶³Ì½Ìѧר¼Ò»áÕïϵͳ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312_CHARSET" Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:37:52 +0800 Message-Id: <20030203053832.3539C43F9B@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ³¬Ò»Á÷ÍøÂçÊÓƵ»áÒé¡¢Ãâ·Ñµç»°¡¢Ô¶³Ì½Ìѧר¼Ò»áÕïϵͳ ±¾¹«Ë¾×îвúÆ·:ÍøÂçÊÓƵ»áÒéÊÓƵ·þÎñÆ÷---¹ã·ºÓÃÓÚ¸ßÇåÎú¶È¾ÖÓò»ò¹ãÓòÊÓƵ»áÒé¡¢ÍøÂç¼à¿Ø¡¢Ó׶ùÔ°¾´ÀÏÔººÍÒ½Ôº²¡·¿¼ÒÈËÒìµØÔ¶³Ì¼à»¤¡¢×¨¼ÒÔ¶³ÌÒ½ÁÆ»áÕïºÍ½Ìѧ¡¢ÍøÂçÔ¶³Ì½ÌÊÒÒÔ¼°ÎÞ»°·Ñ¿ÉÊÓ»¯¿Í»§·þÎñϵͳ,ÍøÉÏ·ç¾°Çø,¾ÆµêʵʱÊÓƵչʾ¡¢µçÊÓ½ÚÄ¿ÍøÉÏʵʱת²¥¡¢´óÐÍÕ¹»áÏÖ³¡ÍøÂçÖ±²¥µÈ,ÍøÉÏ´«ÊäЧ¹û¾ÓÄ¿Ç°¹úÄÚÍâÁìÏÈˮƽ£¬¼Û¸ñ½öÓнø¿Úͬµµ´Î²úÆ·1/10¡£ »¶Ó­ÍøÉϹۿ´ÑÝʾЧ¹û:www.webht.com ÑÝʾ»·¾³¼°ÊÔÓ÷½·¨£º ±¾¹«Ë¾ÊÓƵ»áÒé·þÎñÆ÷ÿÌì24СʱÁ¬Ðø¿ª»ú£¬ÈôÓÐÐËȤÇëÔÚ±¾¹«Ë¾ÍøÕ¾ÏÂÔØ×îаæÂÌÉ«¿Í»§¶ËÈí¼þ,Ö±½Óµã»÷Ö´ÐкóÊäÈë·þÎñÆ÷ºÅ3300002£¬Óû§ÃûºÍÃÜÂë¾ùΪ¡°1234¡±£¬°´È·¶¨ºóÉÔµÈƬ¿Ì¼´¿ÉÁ¬Í¨ÊÓƵ»áÒéϵͳ¿´µ½ÑÝʾÏÖ³¡Í¼Ïó£¬ÔÚ´Ë´¦ÎÒÃÇ¿ÉÓû°Í²½øÐÐÊÓƵ»áÒéÓïÒô½»Ì¸£¬Ç×ÉíÌåÑé×îÐÂIT³É¹û£¬»¶Ó­ÓëÈκιúÍâ²úÆ·×÷Ò»¸ö±È½Ï£¬Äú»á·¢ÏÖÖйúµÄÔÂÁÁ±ÈÍâ¹úµÄÔÂÁÁ»¹ÒªÔ²¡£ Ó¦ÓÃÖ®Ò» ------ ÍøÂçÊÓƵԶ³Ì½ÌѧºÍר¼ÒÔ¶³Ì»áÕïϵͳ£º ÃûУÃûʦ½²¿Î¡¢¸ß¼¶½ÌÊÚ½²Ñ§¡¢Ò½Ñ§ÊÖÊõȨÍþµÄÊÖÊõ¶¼¿ÉʹÓñ¾ÏµÍ³Í¨¹ýÍøÂçÏòÌض¨Óû§¿ª·Å£¬»ñÓÐÃÜÂëµÄ½ÌÊÒ»ò¸öÈ˿ɵǽϵͳ²Î¼Óѧϰ¡£Ò»Ì×·þÎñÆ÷¿É¹©10---100ÒÔÉÏÓû§Í¬Ê±µÇ½£¬Ö»Òª·þÎñÆ÷¶Ë´ø¿í×ã¹»£¨500K X Óû§ÊýÁ¿£©£¬Óû§¶Ë300-500K´ø¿íÎÞ·ÓÉÑÓ³Ù£¬¿É×öµ½ÊÓÒôƵ»ù±¾Í¬²½£¬Ë«¹¤¶Ô½²¡£ ר¼ÒÔ¶³Ì»áÕ¡ª¡ªÀûÓÃÊÓѶҵÎñʵÏÖÖÐÐÄÒ½ÔºÓë»ù²ãÒ½Ôº¾ÍÒÉÄѲ¡Ö¢½øÐлáÕï¡¢Ö¸µ¼ÖÎÁÆÓ뻤Àí¡¢¶Ô»ù²ãÒ½ÎñÈËÔ±µÄҽѧÅàѵµÈµÈ¡£¸ßÖÊÁ¿µÄÊÓѶҵÎñʹҽÉú¡¢»¤Ê¿ÔÚ²»Í¬µØ·½Í¬Ê±Ð­Í¬¹¤×÷³ÉΪ¿ÉÄÜ¡£Ô¶³ÌÒ½ÁƶÔÓÚһЩÖÐСҽԺÓÐ×ÅÖØÒªµÄÒâÒ壬¿ÉÒԵõ½´óÒ½ÔºµÄҽѧר¼ÒµÄ×ÉѯºÍ»áÕï¡£ Ó¦ÓÃÖ®Ò» ------ ÎÞ»°·Ñ¿ÉÊÓ»¯¿Í»§·þÎñϵͳ£º ×ܹ«Ë¾Ö»Ð谲װһ̨ÊÓƵ·þÎñÆ÷¡¢¼¸Ö»ÉãÏñ»ú£¬Ô¶³ÌµÄ¸÷µØÁ¬Ëøµê·Ö¹«Ë¾Ö»ÐèʹÓÃÃâ·ÑµÄ¿Í»§¶ËÈí¼þͨ¹ýµçÄÔÉÏÍø¾Í¿Éͨ¹ýÍøÂçÓë×ܲ¿¶Ô»°£¬Í¬Ê±¿´µ½×ܲ¿¸ßÇåÎúͼÏ󡣿ÉÓÃÓÚ×ܲ¿¶ÔÏÂÊôµ¥Î»ÕÙ¿ªÊÓƵ»áÒé¡¢ÏÂÊôºô½Ð×ܲ¿½øÐÐÒµÎñÁªÏµ»ò×ܲ¿Ð²úÆ·¶Ô¹úÄÚÍâÔ¶¶Ë¿Í»§½øÐÐÑÝʾ¡¢ÅàѵºÍµç×Ó°×°åÎÄ×Ö¹µÍ¨£¬ÕâÒ»Ìصã¾ÍʹµÃ±¾ÏµÍ³¿ÉÈ¡´ú´óÐÍÆóÒµ¼¯ÍÅÄ¿Ç°°º¹óµÄ800µç»°¿Í»§·þÎñϵͳ¶øͨ¹ýÁ®¼ÛµÄÍøÂ緽ʽ¿ªÕ¹Óû§·þÎñ,ʹÓû§Ö±½Ó¿´µ½²úƷʵÎï´ïµ½×îºÃµÄÐû´«·þÎñ×÷Ó㬲¢ÇÒË«·½¶¼²»»á²úÉúÈκλ°·Ñ¡£ ÆäËü²úÆ·£º 1¡¢ÊÓƵ˫½ÊÏßÊÕ·¢Æ÷--Á®¼ÛµÄ¸ßÐÔÄÜÔ¶¾àÀë¼à¿Ø´«ÊäÉ豸,¾àÀë¿É´ï1-3ǧÃס£ 2¡¢LEDµç×ÓÏÔʾÆÁ£¬¼à¿Ø±¨¾¯×¨ÓÃÏÔʾÌõÆÁ£»3¡¢È«ÖÐÎľØÕóÍòÄÜÇл»¼à¿Ø±¨¾¯Ö÷»ú 4¡¢ÍøÂçÊÓƵ»áÒéϵͳ 5¡¢ÏúÊÛ±£°²¼à¿Ø¡¢Â¥Óî¶Ô½²É豸£¬³Ð½Ó±£°²¼à¿ØºÍУ԰ÍøÂ繤³Ì¡£7¡¢IC¿¨³ö×â³µ¼Æ¼ÛÆ÷ºÍ¹«ÎñÆû³µ¹ÜÀí»ú£»8¡¢²ÊÉ«¡¢ºÚ°×ÉãÏó»ú£¬Ë®ÏÂÉãÏó»ú,ϵÁкìÍâµÆ¡¢Æû³µÒ¹ÊÓÒÇ¡¢ÏµÁÐÎÞÏßÓ°ÒôÊÕ·¢Æ÷¡¢¹â¶Ë»ú¡¢ÊÓƵ¹²À´«ÊäµÈÉ豸. ±¾ÏµÍ³Ìص㣺 ÔÚͬһ¸öÍøÂç´ø¿í»·¾³ÏÂͼÏóºÍÓïÒôÖÊÁ¿¿É³¬¹ýÄ¿Ç°ËùÓеĹúÄÚÍâ²úÆ·£¬±¾ÏµÍ³ÊµÏÖ¸ßËÙ¸ßЧÂʵÄÈí¼þѹËõ¼¼Êõ£¬Ê¹ÊµÊ±Ñ¹Ëõ´«ÊäµÄͼÏóΪ756X576ÏóËØ£¬¶ø·ÇÏóËصķŴ󣬹ÊͼÏóÇåÎú¶È¸ß£¬Ê¹ÓÃÊó±êµã»÷»­Ãæ¿É¸´Ô­·Å´óΪÂúÆÁÏÔʾ£¬Ê¹ÓôóÆÁÄ»²Êµç»òͶӰÏÔʾÂúÆÁͼÏó»áÓÐÒâÏë²»µ½µÄ¸ßÇåÎú¶ÈЧ¹û¡£ ×îÐÂÏûÏ¢£º×¨Îª±¾ÏµÍ³ÅäÓõÄMCUÒµÒÑ¿ª·¢ÊÔÑé³É¹¦£¬ÒÑͨ¹ý16¡¢32ºÍ64ºÍ128 Óû§µÄ´óϵͳ²âÊÔ£¬×ª·¢µÄͼÏóÇåÎúÎȶ¨£¬¶ą̀MCU¼¶Á¬ºó¿É¹¹³É¸ü´óϵͳ£¬Ïêϸ×éÍø·½°´Ç뺯µçÁªÏµ¡£ ÐìÖÝ»ªÍ³µçÄÔÉ豸ÓÐÏÞ¹«Ë¾ ÐìÖÝÊÐÇàÄê·288ºÅËÄÂ¥ TEL£º0516-3738506 2682031 FAX£º0516-3752314 ÁªÏµÈË£ºÍõÈ𺣠ÍøÖ·£ºwww.webht.com ÓÊÏ䣺xzhtgs@163.com »¶Ó­¹âÁÙÍøÉÏÓªÏúÈí¼þ³¬ÊÐ http://www.sesoft.findhere.org ±¾ÓʼþÓ󬼶¹ã¸æÈí¼þ·¢ËÍ http://www.sesoft.findhere.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 23:31: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E170F37B401 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from globalhead.caustic.org (ip-66-80-5-169.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.5.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4585243F75 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:31:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by globalhead.caustic.org (8.12.7/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h137Uwae002012; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (localhost.caustic.org [IPv6:::1]) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h137Uv9U008891; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:30:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h137Uu1N008888; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:30:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) X-Authentication-Warning: pogo.caustic.org: jan owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:30:56 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Larry Sica Cc: Brad Knowles , John Martinez , , Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030202231612.B63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > 1. NASA was prepared to deal with an accident this time. Challenger > they were caught with their pants down. > 2. Everything points to a malfunction/failure not a design flaw. everything so far. Challenger was a design flaw, found to late. the shuttles are past their original useful life expectancy. we'll see more "minor" failures before another spectacular one. > Wont happen, this is way to important to NASA, and the rest of the > world. This is not a US project, but a world project. this project is more important to the US than anyone else. while ESA and our Russian friends are involved, we're the ones that've invested the most time and money in to it. > Yes. It wasn't a terrorist is my gut feeling. To have it blow up on > re-entry 200,000 feet up. They couldnt do it with a missile - we'd > have seen it. As for a bomb, from todays conference it doesn't sound > like that. what stuns me is how many people WANT it to be a bomb or missle. i don't know of a single SAM or AAM that can get to that altitude, it would have been detected, and on radar well before hitting the shuttle. the return flight is plotted out, and very heavily monitored by many different agencies (FAA, NASA, USAF, etc) for anything that might be a problem. getting a bomb to the shuttle is what's left for an external cause. very unlikely. NASA's launch facilities are well guarded, and the launch vehicle is heavily protected and examined before even getting to the launch pad. once there, it's under more guard, cameras, and key. NASA has no qualms in stopping or delaying a launch for any reason, we've seen that over the last 10 years. this is a "simple" failure. something went horribly wrong, and there's nothing that could have been done to prevent it. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends." -- Tom Waits To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 2: 4:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A28237B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7DA43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA09130; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:04:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 23026; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:01:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h13A42H02622; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:04:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18266; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:04:00 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> References: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:03:56 +0100 To: JacobRhoden From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:46 PM +1100 2003/02/03, JacobRhoden wrote: > If what NASA is said in their speech earlier today is factual, then > it could not have been a bomb, it was the external sensors which had > the abnormal sensor readings. At that altitude and speed, if it had been a bomb, there wouldn't be time for anything to react or detect that it had been a bomb -- the breakup would have been way too fast. > The internal ones all said fine. Although they did > add a big disclaimer that the second report is usally not very > accurate/correct, at the start/end of their press release! There was a complaint about the tire pressure. The tires are normally pressurized with Nitrogen, an inert gas. What if someone had sabotaged them and pressurized them with Oxygen instead, which would then act as fuel for any fire that might have been started? Heck, the heat of re-entry alone could have been enough to have gotten the tires hot enough to cause them to ignite, and if they did, that could easily have taken the entire shuttle out in a millisecond. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 3:38:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F1937B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 03:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2E743F75; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 03:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mdamon@egypt7000.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783641C3D9B; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 03:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 4845F3D38; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 03:38:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 03:38:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Damon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hypocrites Reply-To: mdamon@egypt7000.com X-Originating-Ip: [209.88.241.70] Message-Id: <20030203113810.4845F3D38@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What's going on here? ---- markm 2003/02/02 01:01:30 PST Modified files: . access Log: See mail sent to developers@freebsd.org Message-Id: <200302020842.h128gdaX044660@grimreaper.grondar.org> Revision Changes Path 1.364 +0 -1 CVSROOT/access ---- Why is this being kept secret? My friend Matt Dillon got his commit bit removed once more. Why? Where's the so called FreeBSD openness? Hey Mark, you haven't even contributed 10 lines of code to the project, yet you disable Matt's access. You're a moron. Where's the public explanation for this? Or maybe it's just jealousy on your part? It's not Glass we are talking about, it's Matt Dillon. For Christ's sake, he's probably the best hacker in the whole team. Sincerely, Matthew Damon _____________________________________________________________ gifts, travel, e-cards, free e-mail, and more! .......... http://www.egypt7000.com .......... _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 4:12:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0920A37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bluewin.ch (mail1.bluewin.ch [195.186.1.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFBF43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bensond7@bluemail.ch) Received: from mss4n.bluewin.ch (195.186.4.217) by mail1.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E383FE10007D9D7; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:08:50 +0000 Received: from [172.21.1.218] by mss4n.bluewin.ch with HTTP; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:08:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:08:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3E19C59200128131@mss4n.bluewin.ch> From: bensond7@bluemail.ch Subject: MY PROPOSITION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Bluewin WebMail / BlueMail X-Originating-IP: 172.21.1.218 To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mr Benson Douglas Tel +27 73 266 9599, +8821 6211 01565. JOHANNESBURG SOUTH AFRICA ATTN: DIRECTOR/C.E.O Courtesy of business opportunity, I take liberty anchored on strong desire to solicit for your assistance on this mutual beneficiary and risk free transaction with you, which I hope you give urgent attention. To be precise, I am Mr Benson Douglas the manager of bills/exchange at the foreign remittance department of ABSA Bank. In my department, we discovered an abandoned sum of US$ 26.5 Million (Twenty Six Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars) in an account that belongs to one of our customers who died along with his entire family in 1988 Lockerbie Pan American Airline plane crash. Since we got information about his death, we have been expecting his next of kin to come over and claim his money because we cannot release it unless somebody applied for it as next of kin or relation to the deceased as indicated in our banking procedures, but unfortunately to no avail and nobody has come forward to claim the money. Therefore, upon this discovery that I and other two officials in my department now decide to establish a cordial business relationship with you, hence my contacting you. We want you to purportedly present your good self as the next of kin or relation of the deceased so that we can release the fund (money) into your account for safety and subsequent disbursement since nobody is coming for it and again we do not want the money to go into the government account as unclaimed bill. The banking law and procedures herein stipulates that any accounts abandoned or dormant for a period of some years is subject to be closed and all money contained therein will be forfeited to the government treasury account. Now it is being speculated that the above sum will be transferred into government treasury account as unclaimed fund on or before April 2003. The reason for you to present your good self as the next of kin is occasioned by the fact that the deceased customer was a foreigner. Mode of Sharing After the successful completion of the transfer is as follows, for the role you will be expected to play in the whole exercise, we have agreed to give you twenty (20%) of the total sum, and 10% has been set aside for the expenses we are going to encounter by both parties in the process of this transaction and the remaining 70% shall be for my colleagues and I. In support of the aforementioned, you are urged to reply this letter indicating your readiness and interest to participate in the business. After your reply, you will be advised on the next step afterwards. I quite believe that you will protect our interest by keeping this business top secret and confidential. Your interest will be equally protected, as we must maintain maximum confidentiality. Trust to hear from you on the above TEL NO.OR THROUGH MY PRIVATE EMAIL ADDRESS bensond7@caramail.com, count on your earliest reply. Thanks Yours faithfully. Mr Benson Douglas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 4:12:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6629F37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.bluewin.ch (mail3.bluewin.ch [195.186.1.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59C343F43 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bensond7@bluemail.ch) Received: from mss4n.bluewin.ch (195.186.4.217) by mail3.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.7.015) id 3E105C81003D1D39; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:09:26 +0000 Received: from [172.21.1.218] by mss4n.bluewin.ch with HTTP; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:09:22 +0100 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:09:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3E19C59200128157@mss4n.bluewin.ch> From: bensond7@bluemail.ch Subject: MY PROPOSITION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Bluewin WebMail / BlueMail X-Originating-IP: 172.21.1.218 To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mr Benson Douglas Tel +27 73 266 9599, +8821 6211 01565. JOHANNESBURG SOUTH AFRICA ATTN: DIRECTOR/C.E.O Courtesy of business opportunity, I take liberty anchored on strong desire to solicit for your assistance on this mutual beneficiary and risk free transaction with you, which I hope you give urgent attention. To be precise, I am Mr Benson Douglas the manager of bills/exchange at the foreign remittance department of ABSA Bank. In my department, we discovered an abandoned sum of US$ 26.5 Million (Twenty Six Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars) in an account that belongs to one of our customers who died along with his entire family in 1988 Lockerbie Pan American Airline plane crash. Since we got information about his death, we have been expecting his next of kin to come over and claim his money because we cannot release it unless somebody applied for it as next of kin or relation to the deceased as indicated in our banking procedures, but unfortunately to no avail and nobody has come forward to claim the money. Therefore, upon this discovery that I and other two officials in my department now decide to establish a cordial business relationship with you, hence my contacting you. We want you to purportedly present your good self as the next of kin or relation of the deceased so that we can release the fund (money) into your account for safety and subsequent disbursement since nobody is coming for it and again we do not want the money to go into the government account as unclaimed bill. The banking law and procedures herein stipulates that any accounts abandoned or dormant for a period of some years is subject to be closed and all money contained therein will be forfeited to the government treasury account. Now it is being speculated that the above sum will be transferred into government treasury account as unclaimed fund on or before April 2003. The reason for you to present your good self as the next of kin is occasioned by the fact that the deceased customer was a foreigner. Mode of Sharing After the successful completion of the transfer is as follows, for the role you will be expected to play in the whole exercise, we have agreed to give you twenty (20%) of the total sum, and 10% has been set aside for the expenses we are going to encounter by both parties in the process of this transaction and the remaining 70% shall be for my colleagues and I. In support of the aforementioned, you are urged to reply this letter indicating your readiness and interest to participate in the business. After your reply, you will be advised on the next step afterwards. I quite believe that you will protect our interest by keeping this business top secret and confidential. Your interest will be equally protected, as we must maintain maximum confidentiality. Trust to hear from you on the above TEL NO.OR THROUGH MY PRIVATE EMAIL ADDRESS bensond7@caramail.com, count on your earliest reply. Thanks Yours faithfully. Mr Benson Douglas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 6:14:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D9137B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-89.apple.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438F943F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h13EE9rJ017618 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9QKVK00.G1P; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:14:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:14:08 -0500 Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Brad Knowles , John Martinez , , To: "f.johan.beisser" From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030202231612.B63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 02:30 AM, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > >> 1. NASA was prepared to deal with an accident this time. Challenger >> they were caught with their pants down. >> 2. Everything points to a malfunction/failure not a design flaw. > > everything so far. > > Challenger was a design flaw, found to late. > > the shuttles are past their original useful life expectancy. we'll see > more "minor" failures before another spectacular one. > They are not. They are designed for 100 flights. Columbia was on number 28. >> Wont happen, this is way to important to NASA, and the rest of the >> world. This is not a US project, but a world project. > > this project is more important to the US than anyone else. while ESA > and > our Russian friends are involved, we're the ones that've invested the > most > time and money in to it. > Still doesn't mean it is not important. Consider that the US is the primary way materials are going up. >> Yes. It wasn't a terrorist is my gut feeling. To have it blow up on >> re-entry 200,000 feet up. They couldnt do it with a missile - we'd >> have seen it. As for a bomb, from todays conference it doesn't sound >> like that. > --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 8:44:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB1C37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C778243F93; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mdamon@egypt7000.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F061C429D; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id EAFE34259; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:44:06 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:44:06 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Damon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Poll: Should Mark Murray be removed from core? Reply-To: mdamon@egypt7000.com X-Originating-Ip: [209.88.241.70] Message-Id: <20030203164406.EAFE34259@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gentlemen, cast your vote: 1) Mark Murray considered harmful 2) Nah, keep the person that has just removed Dillon's commit bit, yet isn't making any significant contribution to the project. You have until Feb 15 to vote. Poll result will be forwarded to core and a decision will be made. Thank you for making FreeBSD better. _____________________________________________________________ gifts, travel, e-cards, free e-mail, and more! .......... http://www.egypt7000.com .......... _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 9:50: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A26237B407 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8003A43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drew@poured.net) Received: (qmail 10745 invoked by uid 19192); 3 Feb 2003 17:49:58 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Political implications (was: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) From: Drew Raines X-GPG-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x727A9DD2 X-Face: Ek\(yS@=Hu([f%*[p\im]h!vV9)Q,))RdBX2[/7n3d19Bd<"=p-p(%qv7#aZ|0xF!CH Ztz,c&:f"9o-YPuifF0!OXRxOsE6,#Kw;cYA7~F:Oo]JDabP:hZzd\uG=2i*cc#Nq~?4=j}puM IZDUC7@igVY*uO5CHO^y$.UzK:QRx|=r*^}>grFX;#JtE)?B["?'L;P?;=5/ba=UI3"A[Cd8)} ni~vY8NamGr\8JOY>g;LCE{p]TJ (Brad Knowles's message of "Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:38:16 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, sparc-sun-solaris2.9) References: <3417F02C-35FF-11D7-9E46-0003937C0B34@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > At 8:07 AM -0800 2003/02/01, John Martinez wrote: > >>> Seven soles lost in the disaster. Who cares about their shoes? > Moreover, just exactly how is Bush going to handle four > simultaneous crises -- He'll delegate this new one to NASA; what more would he do? This isn't a sensitive political disaster his administration needs to clean up; it's a plain ol' tragedy which people will mourn and recover from. Technology will benefit from what happened and the shuttle will fly again. > IMO, this is the end of his presidency. He tried to do too many > things at the same time, and go after too many old enemies at the > same time. I'm reading more into your comments than you probably wanted anyone to, however... I realize Bush is a politician, but why must every last decision he make be political? Perhaps he actually cares about the security of the United States and its inhabitants. I'm as cynical as the next guy, but maybe his efforts are actually in everyone's best interests and not just his own. Clinton apparently brainwashed the world into thinking every United States president is morally corrupt and self-serving. At worst, Bush has proven himself to be a determined man of action. I'll take that any day over recalcitrance or patronizing lip service. -Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 9:54:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E65937B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr [163.178.60.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7AE43FA3 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fabmirha@ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr) Received: by ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (Postfix, from userid 5481) id 15CF32ABEF; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:55:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF94726DD2 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:55:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:55:15 -0600 (CST) From: Fabio Miranda Hamburger To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Disassembling question. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I would like to know what tools does freebsd offer me for disassembling purposes ? objdump, what else? Also, Where can I learn more about disassembling on FreeBSD ? I have certain binary in FreeBSD and I would like to know What library functions does it call? and try to find out what does the binary do when it's executed. thanks, --- Fabio Andres Miranda Ingenieria de sistemas informaticos Universidad Latina - Costa Rica To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 9:55:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B25937B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9CF43FA7 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:55:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0144.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.144] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18fkoD-0004oL-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 09:55:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3EACA8.D3C4310F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 09:53:44 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d4941a9956b4951eae82a94be0576daa666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > There was a complaint about the tire pressure. The tires are > normally pressurized with Nitrogen, an inert gas. What if someone > had sabotaged them and pressurized them with Oxygen instead, which > would then act as fuel for any fire that might have been started? > Heck, the heat of re-entry alone could have been enough to have > gotten the tires hot enough to cause them to ignite, and if they did, > that could easily have taken the entire shuttle out in a millisecond. I've personally thought of six ways that this could have been done intentionally, including your "tire inflation gas substitution" trick. All of them are extremely low probability. Very few highly intelligent or comepetent people are sociopathic enough to become terrorists/snipers/etc.. The one highly competent sniper was the Texas University tower sniper, and he had a brain tumor; otherwise, people who are good at what they do generally don't go off the deep end. The bad guys do not need a handbook on how to think about getting around the (obvious, after analysis) holes in security and other protocols at NASA, or airports, nor do they need suggestions on how to perform their acts successfully. Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 10:28:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40E337B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB243F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0144.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.144] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18flKi-0003bt-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:28:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3EB480.87EE0356@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:27:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Sica Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , Brad Knowles , John Martinez , barbish@a1poweruser.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4dabf308f3eae536357fdf6796369c8e22601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica wrote: > On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 02:30 AM, f.johan.beisser wrote: > >> Wont happen, this is way to important to NASA, and the rest of the > >> world. This is not a US project, but a world project. > > > > this project is more important to the US than anyone else. while ESA > > and our Russian friends are involved, we're the ones that've invested > > the most time and money in to it. > > Still doesn't mean it is not important. Consider that the US is the > primary way materials are going up. This is unlikely to remain true in the future. With this most recent loss, the U.S. has lost 25% of it's heavy lift capability, and if you include the Challenger, it has lost 40% of the designed total heavy lift capability. The National Aerospace plane project has been quietly cancelled, with the inability to manufacture the necessary fuel tank for the anhydride fuel storage for the linear aerospike engine, and unlike previous efforts, the DC-X "Delta Clipper" developement was scrapped before either of the competitors had built anthing but parts or scaled down models. Meanwhile China is aggressively pursuing a manned spaceflight program, and the Russians still have the ability to loft heavier payloads than anyone else on the planet, even if we were capable of restarting the Saturn V assembly line, which we're not. The Japanese also have a program, and it's likely that India and other nations will enter the launch services market more strongly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 10:54:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7711037B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE1D43F75; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h13Is1WK033566; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:54:02 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h13Is1id033565; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:54:01 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:54:01 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: dillon@FreeBSD.org Subject: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203185401.GA31527@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think that reason for removing dillon@'s commit bit is very secret. Why it was not publishied, only Message-Id: from closed developers@ list? I think we (FreeBSD users/contributors community) need to know why. I suspect it was a some internal war (maybe offending postings/commit logs/etc) I don't know exactly what it was. I don't think it was enough to remove his commit bit. With that reason we then should also remove obrien@'s commit bit (he also was a little bit offending sometimes). But, I think it is not the right way to solve any problems. We are living in civilized world, we have tongue, not fingers (to commit removal from access) to solve conflicts. Please, either disclose the reason for dillon@'s commit bit removal with explanations or give it back to him or I will switch to linux. P.S. Dillon, thank you for you work and I hope that you will continue to help improving it. Your patch for unionfs works perfectly here in almost production environment! -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 11:22: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7977637B444 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7FA43FAF for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h13JLhP02160; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:21:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:21:43 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Alexandr Kovalenko Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203142143.E1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030203185401.GA31527@nevermind.kiev.ua> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > I don't think that reason for removing dillon@'s commit bit is very > secret. Why it was not publishied, only Message-Id: from closed > developers@ list? While I hate to pick up on a topic first posted by the project's pet troll, I have to second Alexandr here. As a longtime user I certainly want to know: what's going on? Dillon isn't any ordinary committer -- he is perhaps the guy most responsible for making FreeBSD 4.x the most rugged and stress-proof free operating system in existence. (Not to mention his indirect contributions to fixing the linux VM: his reputation extends beyond FreeBSD.) The mailing list archives offer no clue. Surely some explanation, and not just to developers@, is required when his name is scratched out. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 11:24:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBA037B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D113843FA3 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0144.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.144] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18fmCN-0002JX-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:24:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3EC183.225F874A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:22:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fabio Miranda Hamburger Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disassembling question. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48b046ad0ee0e28f0884ebac5a5cc43cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fabio Miranda Hamburger wrote: > Hi, I would like to know what tools does freebsd offer me for > disassembling purposes ? objdump, what else? gdb, and there are ports of various debuggers and other tools. > Also, Where can I learn more about disassembling on FreeBSD ? In the books, help files, and manual pages for the tools, above. > I have certain binary in FreeBSD and I would like to know What library > functions does it call? and try to find out what does the binary do when > it's executed. Are you willing to execute it to find out, or is this a forensic discussion (e.g. it's a worm or something, and you'd rather just read it than run it)? If you are willing to execute it, you can use ktrace or truss to get the system calls and parameters. For the library routines, it's harder; you will need to build an instrimented version of the library and force it to use it. IF the program is statically linked, this won't be possible. BTW, if you are concerned it's a trojan or a "root kit", you can always create two jails, run it in one, and then compare the jails afterward, byte-by-byte, to see what, if anything, changed between them. Generally, when I run suspicious Windows code (usually I disassemble it with V Communication's Inc.'s "Sourcer", which is a commenting disassembler for Windows/DOS, if I'm suspicious enough to care), I do it in a VMWare virtual machine running under FreeBSD, which lets me do all sorts of things, like monitor all the network traffic directly, intercept it, change it, and let it keep going, etc.. It'd be a great way to cheat at Netrek, borging a "blessed" client, if you wer the sort to do that kind of thing. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 11:30:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0439737B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75BE43F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208EC8A2776; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:30:35 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:30:35 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , "" Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030203142143.E1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: <20030203152823.N16840@hub.org> References: <20030203142143.E1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > > I don't think that reason for removing dillon@'s commit bit is very > > secret. Why it was not publishied, only Message-Id: from closed > > developers@ list? > > While I hate to pick up on a topic first posted by the project's pet > troll, I have to second Alexandr here. As a longtime user I certainly > want to know: what's going on? > > Dillon isn't any ordinary committer -- he is perhaps the guy most > responsible for making FreeBSD 4.x the most rugged and stress-proof > free operating system in existence. (Not to mention his indirect > contributions to fixing the linux VM: his reputation extends beyond > FreeBSD.) The mailing list archives offer no clue. Surely some > explanation, and not just to developers@, is required when his name is > scratched out. Considering that he was instrumental in ferreting out some deep VM issues in v4.x in a loaded environment on my servers ... I'm a lot concerned here as well ... Matt step'd up to the proverbial plate when nobody else would, sinc ethey were too engross'd/busy with 5.x to care :( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 12: 1:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1527B37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A3243F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id C73E55371; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:01:40 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 21:01:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030203142143.E1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:21:43 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030203142143.E1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] Short version: there was a difference of opinions. As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this story as there are people involved in it. My advice is to let it lie. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 12: 4: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A69537B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0257443F93 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h13K3cWK036465; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:03:39 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h13K3cD3036464; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:03:38 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:03:38 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203200338.GA34809@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20030203142143.E1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Dag-Erling Smorgrav! On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 09:01:39PM +0100, you wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] > > Short version: there was a difference of opinions. > > As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this > story as there are people involved in it. > > My advice is to let it lie. I'd like to hear official statement on this. -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 12:36:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D3A37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC7143F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:36:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7C94C9F4; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5AA9F2; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:36:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:36:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030203121655.Q84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] > > Short version: there was a difference of opinions. > > As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this > story as there are people involved in it. > > My advice is to let it lie. So Matt Dillon, after spending gobs of time learning all that Dyson did for us (yet another VM guru driven out), and then improving on it gets the same treatment in the end? John left on his own terms, but from an outside observer's view, it was pretty obvious he wasn't missed in -core by very many. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 12:39: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA2F37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from histidine.utmb.edu (histidine.utmb.edu [129.109.59.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2802A43E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:39:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bdodson@scms.utmb.EDU) Received: from histidine.utmb.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by histidine.utmb.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h13KcmjU052443 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:38:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bdodson@histidine.utmb.edu) Message-Id: <200302032038.h13KcmjU052443@histidine.utmb.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:38:48 -0600 (CST) From: "M. L. Dodson" Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Feb, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: >> [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] > > Short version: there was a difference of opinions. > > As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this > story as there are people involved in it. > > My advice is to let it lie. > > DES I'm afraid that just won't do. The _USERS_ deserve a better explanation than that for removal of one of the, if not the, most productive developers of the project. The hubris of keeping this secret is really beyond the pale, folks. This is the kind of attitude that generates forks. Will anyone comment on how well NetBSD runs on Intel hardware? Just in case. M. L. Dodson; now going back to lurking. -- M. L. Dodson bdodson@scms.utmb.edu 409-772-2178 FAX: 409-772-1790 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 12:55:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ABF37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5430543F79 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@sleepy.wojomedia.com) Received: (qmail 27647 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Feb 2003 20:55:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:55:10 -0600 From: Tim To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203205510.GA27326@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <200302032038.h13KcmjU052443@histidine.utmb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302032038.h13KcmjU052443@histidine.utmb.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 02:38:48PM -0600, M. L. Dodson wrote: > On 3 Feb, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > My advice is to let it lie. > > > > DES > > I'm afraid that just won't do. I agree. Remember Matt was also the only one that gave a thorough and timely review for Jeff's new scheduler framework (including many bugfixes and patches!!!). That's but one of many helpful peer reviews that he has consistently done. I think FreeBSD has a tendency to fall into a "gentlemen's" club mode where we are all supposed to act like we are sitting in an elegant house drinking tea and have to speak in low monotomous tones. It's far from it and contention very often is productive! The userbase certainly should at least know the motivations and facts behind the latest yank of Matt's commit bit. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 13:41:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8EE37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:41:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B07F43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:41:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with SMTP id h13LfYP4088724; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:41:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:41:33 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] > > Short version: there was a difference of opinions. I think there should be "short version", but that this is not quite it. The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow developers with the civility and respect that they deserve. The FreeBSD Project attempts to foster a productive environment for development; sure, as with any online community, it's going to have its share of disagreements and occasional flames. It's hard to imagine any e-mail list without occasional fiery and enthusiastic disagreement. However, there are times when individuals may step beyond the scope of what is considered reasonable, expected, or acceptable. Obviously, this is subject to interpretation and debate, but I'd ask that those passing judgement on this action take into account that this was given long and hard consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without regret. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14: 3:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267FF37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F3E43F75; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h13M3Li02574; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:03:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:03:21 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Robert Watson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203170321.I1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson wrote: > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve. Presumably this was on -developers or in private mail, since I can't find any serious examples in the other archives in the recent past, but on the contrary, several extremely helpful discussions from him (on the new scheduler, disk cache expiry etc). As you say, occasional disagreements and flames are a fact of life. However, as a lurker and a rather rare poster on the "technical" lists, my impression is that Matt is one of the most friendly, enthusiastic and genuinely helpful people around (apart from his unquestioned merits as a hacker). If rudeness is a criterion for having a commit bit removed, surely there must have been several candidates ahead of Matt in the queue. Or maybe it was they who eventually squashed him. > I'd ask that those passing judgement on > this action take into account that this was given long and hard > consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without > regret. I appreciate that, of course. That doesn't mean the decision doesn't worry me (or, I imagine, many other people here). I also scan the linux kernel mailing list now and then, and the flamewars there dwarf those on the freebsd lists by orders of magnitude. Nevertheless, things continue, nobody (afaik) is thrown out for bad behaviour -- at worst, Linus insists on an intermediary to filter the discussion/patches -- and very few have ever walked away in a huff. Newcomers are made to feel welcome. In contrast, time and again newbies complain about the elitist attitude of FreeBSD. That can be excused, or at least "argued away", but throwing out someone of the calibre of Matt Dillon is beyond belief. Maybe that's the real reason linux is more successful in the real world. At least the FreeBSD core team should think about it. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:11:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A3037B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A9143F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with SMTP id h13MBGP4089781; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:11:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:11:16 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030203170321.I1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow > > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve. > > Presumably this was on -developers or in private mail, since I can't > find any serious examples in the other archives in the recent past, but > on the contrary, several extremely helpful discussions from him (on the > new scheduler, disk cache expiry etc). > > As you say, occasional disagreements and flames are a fact of life. > However, as a lurker and a rather rare poster on the "technical" lists, > my impression is that Matt is one of the most friendly, enthusiastic and > genuinely helpful people around (apart from his unquestioned merits as a > hacker). If rudeness is a criterion for having a commit bit removed, > surely there must have been several candidates ahead of Matt in the > queue. Or maybe it was they who eventually squashed him. While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind speculation isn't helpful for anyone. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:15: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092C637B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5A043F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:15:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02575; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:14:43 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:14:35 -0700 To: "M. L. Dodson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <200302032038.h13KcmjU052443@histidine.utmb.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:38 PM 2/3/2003, M. L. Dodson wrote: >This is the kind of attitude that generates forks. And knives. It really does appear that -core has become a hotbed of vindictiveness of late, and the community deserves to know more about why. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:31:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377FC37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.issci.ca (mail.acns.AB.ca [142.179.151.95]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCA043F85 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:31:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.issci.ca) Received: from colnta.issci.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by colnta.issci.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h13MVRAM030146; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:31:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.issci.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.issci.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h13MVRIX030145; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:31:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:31:27 -0700 From: Chad David To: Brett Glass Cc: "M. L. Dodson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203223127.GC29380@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 03:14:35PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:38 PM 2/3/2003, M. L. Dodson wrote: > > >This is the kind of attitude that generates forks. > > And knives. > > It really does appear that -core has become a hotbed of > vindictiveness of late, and the community deserves to know > more about why. Where did that come from? What has -core done that could be considered vindictive? Did they make a decision? Are they trying to clean things up and bring some vision and direction back to FreeBSD? Does that bother those who prefer chaos? My personal experiences with Matt contradict -core's decision, but my personal experiences with many -core members, and my respect for authority demands that I support and trust them. I would recommend that we each consider how FreeBSD can grow and learn from this experience, and not waste any time tearing down and destroying what so many have worked to create. -- Chad David davidc@issci.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ISSci Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:47:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E9D37B406; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A01A43F43; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A26D8A365F; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:47:11 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:47:11 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Robert Watson Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , "" Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030203184103.K16840@hub.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Robert Watson wrote: > reasonable, expected, or acceptable. Obviously, this is subject to > interpretation and debate, but I'd ask that those passing judgement on > this action take into account that this was given long and hard > consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without > regret. the thing is, you have on the one side -core that wants him gone, and, from what I can see, non-core that doesn't want him gone ... considering how much of a beauraucracy this has become, maybe there should be some sort of referundum(sp?) on issues like this? Where the userbase has some sort of a say? It just seems that there are some pretty critical issues that are being handled, and its hurting both sides of the project ... the userbase by the loss of some serious players, and the core themselves by the flames thye are getting for the decisions ... :( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:47:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D4C37B406 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D9843FB1 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h13MlXX0059833 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:47:33 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h13MlX11059832 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:47:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:47:26 -0600 From: David Kelly To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203224726.GA59708@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 04:41:33PM -0500, Robert Watson wrote: > > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve. Sounds like there is a need for a jail(8) syscall to isolate and protect developers from each other. Once perfected among FreeBSD developers we could export it to the middle east and see if it really works under the high server loads FreeBSD is known for. And if it works there, it could be put the the highest test, to protect parents from screaming 2 year olds. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:49:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8127737B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FE243E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D91D8A3663; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:50 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:50 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Chad David Cc: Brett Glass , "M. L. Dodson" , "" Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030203223127.GC29380@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20030203184819.M16840@hub.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203223127.GC29380@colnta.acns.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Chad David wrote: > On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 03:14:35PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:38 PM 2/3/2003, M. L. Dodson wrote: > > > > >This is the kind of attitude that generates forks. > > > > And knives. > > > > It really does appear that -core has become a hotbed of > > vindictiveness of late, and the community deserves to know > > more about why. > > Where did that come from? What has -core done that could be > considered vindictive? Did they make a decision? Are they > trying to clean things up and bring some vision and direction > back to FreeBSD? Does that bother those who prefer chaos? a mixture of both is required ... chaos breeds life and innovation ... order is good for advocacy ... too strong in either, and the project dies :( > My personal experiences with Matt contradict -core's decision, > but my personal experiences with many -core members, and my > respect for authority demands that I support and trust them. You pay your taxes on time too, don't you? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:54:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1BF37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from seattlefenix.net (seattlefenix.net [216.231.34.252]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7852B43E4A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:54:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo@seattlefenix.net) Received: by seattlefenix.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5DE71B23A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:49:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:49:11 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Robert Watson Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203224911.GE27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Reply-To: Benjamin Krueger References: <20030203170321.I1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Robert Watson (rwatson@freebsd.org) [030203 14:06]: > > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Robert Watson wrote: > > > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow > > > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve. > > > > Presumably this was on -developers or in private mail, since I can't > > find any serious examples in the other archives in the recent past, but > > on the contrary, several extremely helpful discussions from him (on the > > new scheduler, disk cache expiry etc). > > > > As you say, occasional disagreements and flames are a fact of life. > > However, as a lurker and a rather rare poster on the "technical" lists, > > my impression is that Matt is one of the most friendly, enthusiastic and > > genuinely helpful people around (apart from his unquestioned merits as a > > hacker). If rudeness is a criterion for having a commit bit removed, > > surely there must have been several candidates ahead of Matt in the > > queue. Or maybe it was they who eventually squashed him. > > While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind > speculation isn't helpful for anyone. You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve to hurt the project. > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories Patiently waiting for the full story, -- Benjamin Krueger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 14:55:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F5A37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [209.224.20.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7738643F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:55:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nospam@hiltonbsd.com) Received: from [209.224.36.70] (helo=daggar.sbgnet.net) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 18fpUY-0007oy-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:55:06 -0600 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:54:28 -0600 From: Stephen Hilton To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-Id: <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does joining the project involve signing a full-disclosure contract regarding all issues public and private? Think about this people... Would you join knowing that your "Permanent Record" was to be displayed at the whim of a "public" request. How have we gotten to this point where "stirring the pot" and sensationalist muck-raking is a common "sport". Are we looking for a "McCarthy" list of other names and details about this situation, to broaden the scope of the "investigation". Retain the right of a person to speak for themselves, or remain silent if that is their wish. Regards, Stephen Hilton nospam@hiltonbsd.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15: 4:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F9F37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.issci.ca (mail.acns.AB.ca [142.179.151.95]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D196643F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.issci.ca) Received: from colnta.issci.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by colnta.issci.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h13N4jAM030275; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:04:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.issci.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.issci.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h13N4i89030274; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:04:45 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:04:44 -0700 From: Chad David To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Chad David , Brett Glass , "M. L. Dodson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203230444.GA30183@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203223127.GC29380@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <20030203184819.M16840@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203184819.M16840@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 06:49:50PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Chad David wrote: > > > Where did that come from? What has -core done that could be > > considered vindictive? Did they make a decision? Are they > > trying to clean things up and bring some vision and direction > > back to FreeBSD? Does that bother those who prefer chaos? > > a mixture of both is required ... chaos breeds life and innovation ... > order is good for advocacy ... too strong in either, and the project dies > :( Creative destruction is a part of the cycle of life, destruction on its own serves no one but itself. > > > My personal experiences with Matt contradict -core's decision, > > but my personal experiences with many -core members, and my > > respect for authority demands that I support and trust them. > > You pay your taxes on time too, don't you? I own many companies, and as a result do not pay taxes :). Really, while I do not always agree with what those above me do or how they act, I have learned over the years that you must first attempt to work within the system before you start burning churches. -- Chad David davidc@issci.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ISSci Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15: 6:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE89437B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4615B43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:06:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with SMTP id h13N6ZP4091647; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:06:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:06:35 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030203224911.GE27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind > > speculation isn't helpful for anyone. > > You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a > valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid > rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve > to hurt the project. Do you really think publishing shopping lists of behavioral problems is going to solve anything? Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:20:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DE237B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BD043F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with SMTP id h13NKQP4092010; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:20:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:20:26 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030203184103.K16840@hub.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Robert Watson wrote: > > > reasonable, expected, or acceptable. Obviously, this is subject to > > interpretation and debate, but I'd ask that those passing judgement on > > this action take into account that this was given long and hard > > consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without > > regret. > > the thing is, you have on the one side -core that wants him gone, and, > from what I can see, non-core that doesn't want him gone ... considering > how much of a beauraucracy this has become, maybe there should be some > sort of referundum(sp?) on issues like this? Where the userbase has > some sort of a say? Portraying this as "Core vs Dillon" is a gross mis-characterization. The Core Team is elected by the FreeBSD developer team as a whole, and exists to serve a number of roles. Among them is conflict resolution, in which developers can seek mediation in solving technical or FreeBSD-related conflicts between developers. Core decisions are frequently the outcome of such mediation, or the outcome of many instances of mediation. In this case, it was the outcome of a long series of issues over a long period of time. How to involve all stakeholders in conflict resolution is an interesting question, and one that I think far larger groups than the FreeBSD Project have struggled in dealing with. > It just seems that there are some pretty critical issues that are being > handled, and its hurting both sides of the project ... the userbase by > the loss of some serious players, and the core themselves by the flames > thye are getting for the decisions ... :( Agreed. Any time you deal with critical issues of this sort, there is the opportunity for damage. Unfortunately, the basic premise is that things are already damaging, or we wouldn't be in the situation in the first place. So the task becomes to take the path of least damage, which is a difficult balancing act. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:24:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847D837B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (203-114-136-124.inspire.net.nz [203.114.136.124]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E322A43F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 32840 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2003 23:24:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by 203-114-136-5.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 3 Feb 2003 23:24:05 -0000 Message-ID: <3E3EFA15.405A6690@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:24:05 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson wrote: > While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind > speculation isn't helpful for anyone. Why did you do X? Because of bad things that happened. What Bad Things? It's a private matter. Well, regardless of the provocation, wouldn't Y have been a better course of action? You are making "blind speculation". And you supplied the blindfold! How else are we supposed to respond? -- C. PS expected response: "You're not." -- Craig H. crh@outpost.co.nz Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:25: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D514E37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from seattlefenix.net (seattlefenix.net [216.231.34.252]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E07343F9B; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo@seattlefenix.net) Received: by seattlefenix.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4928FB23A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:19:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:19:44 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Robert Watson Cc: Benjamin Krueger , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203231944.GF27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Reply-To: Benjamin Krueger References: <20030203224911.GE27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Robert Watson (rwatson@freebsd.org) [030203 15:01]: > > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > > > While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind > > > speculation isn't helpful for anyone. > > > > You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a > > valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid > > rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve > > to hurt the project. > > Do you really think publishing shopping lists of behavioral problems is > going to solve anything? At the moment, not explaining any events which may have occured seems to be hurting the project. This does little to convey a sense of stability or trust, and the secrecy is causing many to reconsider their participation in the project. At the very least, it is a matter of respect to the project community. Core has nothing to hide, and the project belongs to all involved. If the move to remove Dillon's commit privileges truly is beneficial to the project, then why is an explaination of this so difficult to share? > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories -- Benjamin Krueger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:28:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF5F37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9796243F43 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9BEAE51971; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:58:37 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:58:37 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203232837.GE70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030203121655.Q84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203121655.Q84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 3 February 2003 at 12:36:43 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> Rahul Siddharthan writes: >>> [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] >> >> Short version: there was a difference of opinions. >> >> As for the long version - there are probably as many versions of this >> story as there are people involved in it. >> >> My advice is to let it lie. > > So Matt Dillon, after spending gobs of time learning all that Dyson did > for us (yet another VM guru driven out), and then improving on it gets the > same treatment in the end? John left on his own terms, but from an > outside observer's view, it was pretty obvious he wasn't missed in -core > by very many. It's interesting how outside views can be inaccurate. dyson *was* missed. But we discovered that he was replaceable. I'd suggest you take a look at recent commit statistics in the VM subtree. You may not even recognize the name of the person who's doing most of the work at the moment. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:39:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67B737B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from seattlefenix.net (seattlefenix.net [216.231.34.252]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C3443F79 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:39:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo@seattlefenix.net) Received: by seattlefenix.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7996DB23A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:34:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:34:22 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Stephen Hilton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Reply-To: Benjamin Krueger References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Stephen Hilton (nospam@hiltonbsd.com) [030203 14:50]: > Does joining the project involve signing a full-disclosure > contract regarding all issues public and private? > > Think about this people... > > Would you join knowing that your "Permanent Record" was > to be displayed at the whim of a "public" request. > > How have we gotten to this point where "stirring the pot" > and sensationalist muck-raking is a common "sport". > > Are we looking for a "McCarthy" list of other names and > details about this situation, to broaden the scope of > the "investigation". > > Retain the right of a person to speak for themselves, > or remain silent if that is their wish. > > Regards, > > Stephen Hilton > nospam@hiltonbsd.com I have held the notion, from the very first day of my experience with FreeBSD, that the Project belonged to everyone involved. Core, Committers, Developers, Testers, and Users alike. By and large, this notion has been upheld by everyone I have had the opportunity to communicate with. Folks involved with the project take a special regard to the achievements the project has made. Many people are now objecting to the removal of a valuable contributor to the project. People who quietly participate in the background, without fuss. Their concern is not sport or muck-raking, but genuine concern for the well being of the project. To simply ask them to be quiet and trust that Core, like a wise parent, will know what's best is degrading at best, and an insult to them. Core is a group of very intelligent and hard working people, however the project does not soley belong to them. Locking out the rest of the community on an important issue such as this alienates many who may otherwise support Core's actions. Obviously a great many people believe that they have a right to determine what's best for the project, exclusion from Core not-withstanding. At the very least, all that they ask is for full information on an important issue like this. If nobody from the inner circle will explain why such a move as this was made, many project participants will reconsider their involvement with the project. Secrecy within Core, membership changes without explaination, and cover-up of the events afterwards do little to convey an image of stability where it is needed most. If nobody is willing to explain what happened, and why, perhaps it is time for the project to reconsider it's philosophy as a project that belongs to whomever wishes to participate. Perhaps it's time to redeclare the project as the domain of those who sit in the positions of influence. I don't believe this to be the case, but events like this may persuade others that this is indeed the current state of affairs. Regards, -- Benjamin Krueger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:40:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9926C37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061D643F79; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 43A3E51971; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:10:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:10:13 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Robert Watson , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203234013.GF70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030203224911.GE27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> <20030203231944.GF27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203231944.GF27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 3 February 2003 at 15:19:44 -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * Robert Watson (rwatson@freebsd.org) [030203 15:01]: >> >> On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote: >> >>>> While your thoughts on how to improve the project are appreciated, blind >>>> speculation isn't helpful for anyone. >>> >>> You're absolutely right. I'm glad Core is going to explain why a >>> valuable contributor got the boot. There is no better way to to avoid >>> rumour mongering and blind speculation. That, after all, can only serve >>> to hurt the project. >> >> Do you really think publishing shopping lists of behavioral problems is >> going to solve anything? > > At the moment, not explaining any events which may have occured seems to be > hurting the project. This does little to convey a sense of stability or > trust, and the secrecy is causing many to reconsider their participation in > the project. At the very least, it is a matter of respect to the project > community. > > Core has nothing to hide, and the project belongs to all involved. If the > move to remove Dillon's commit privileges truly is beneficial to the project, > then why is an explaination of this so difficult to share? We've already given an explanation. The problem is, those of you in this thread don't think it's enough. Yes, we could do our dirty washing in public. But that wouldn't be fair to dillon. What I can say is that yes, I too have experienced dillon the way you describe him, friendly, helpful and effective. Unfortunately, he's not always like that. Consider that this was an extremely difficult decision to make. The fact that it was unanimous--the first time, I think, that we've been unanimous in anything--should give the clue that whatever the problems were, we considered them very serious, and they were impacting the project as a whole. In addition, we didn't see any prospect for improvement. I expect that won't satisfy you. Sorry about that, but I can't see a way to satisfy you without being unfair to dillon. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:43:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2FB37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:43:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C005143FB8; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:43:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id DB4DA5371; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:43:27 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Robert Watson , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , "" Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:43:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030203184103.K16840@hub.org> ("Marc G. Fournier"'s message of "Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:47:11 -0400 (AST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030203184103.K16840@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Marc G. Fournier" writes: > the thing is, you have on the one side -core that wants him gone, and, > from what I can see, non-core that doesn't want him gone ... That is not the case. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:50:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C6537B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364BC43F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD313D27; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:50:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Benjamin Krueger Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:51:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3E3EBA2F.3931.929F1DC5@localhost> In-reply-to: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> References: <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Feb 2003 at 15:34, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > Many people are now objecting to the removal of a valuable > contributor to the project "Many" is a relative term. In fact, it is only a few relative to the number of subscribers. > If nobody is willing to explain what happened It has been explained, but apparently not to your satisfaction. I think your passion and energy would be better spent elsewhere rather than chasing this item. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:52:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BBF37B406; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30FE643F79; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:52:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 89AEB5371; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:52:16 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:52:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030203232837.GE70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> (Greg 'groggy' Lehey's message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:58:37 +1030") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030203121655.Q84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> <20030203232837.GE70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes: > I'd suggest you take a look at recent commit statistics in the VM > subtree. You may not even recognize the name of the person who's > doing most of the work at the moment. des@8ball ~% ./commitscan.pl /home/ncvs/CVSROOT/commitlogs/*.02*z // 132148 commits registered between 2001-12-01 and 2002-12-03 // 275 active committers > set cutoff 2.5% > show committers for src/sys/vm alc 257 42.83% jeff 111 18.50% peter 34 5.67% alfred 28 4.67% eivind 25 4.17% jhb 20 3.33% julian 19 3.17% dillon 16 2.67% others 90 15.00% > show committers for src/sys phk 1452 7.75% jhb 1322 7.05% alfred 1279 6.82% rwatson 977 5.21% peter 922 4.92% jake 724 3.86% julian 609 3.25% joe 598 3.19% jeff 509 2.72% imp 497 2.65% obrien 491 2.62% others 9361 49.95% > show committers for src obrien 6702 13.83% markm 3281 6.77% ru 2092 4.32% phk 2077 4.29% alfred 2021 4.17% des 1946 4.02% nectar 1652 3.41% jhb 1464 3.02% imp 1374 2.84% peter 1280 2.64% rwatson 1278 2.64% others 23276 48.05% DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:58:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184A437B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [209.224.20.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0DB43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nospam@hiltonbsd.com) Received: from [209.224.36.70] (helo=daggar.sbgnet.net) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 18fqU6-0000Ky-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:58:42 -0600 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:58:35 -0600 From: Stephen Hilton To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: benjamin@seattlefenix.net Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-Id: <20030203175835.5c57ed36.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> In-Reply-To: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:34:22 -0800 Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * Stephen Hilton (nospam@hiltonbsd.com) [030203 14:50]: > > Does joining the project involve signing a full-disclosure > > contract regarding all issues public and private? > > > > Think about this people... > > > > Would you join knowing that your "Permanent Record" was > > to be displayed at the whim of a "public" request. > > > > How have we gotten to this point where "stirring the pot" > > and sensationalist muck-raking is a common "sport". > > > > Are we looking for a "McCarthy" list of other names and > > details about this situation, to broaden the scope of > > the "investigation". > > > > Retain the right of a person to speak for themselves, > > or remain silent if that is their wish. > > > > Regards, > > > > Stephen Hilton > > nospam@hiltonbsd.com > > I have held the notion, from the very first day of my experience > with FreeBSD, that the Project belonged to everyone involved. > Core, Committers, Developers, Testers, and Users alike. By and > large, this notion has been upheld by everyone I have had the > opportunity to communicate with. Folks involved with the project > take a special regard to the achievements the project has made. > > Many people are now objecting to the removal of a valuable > contributor to the project. People who quietly participate in > the background, without fuss. Their concern is not sport or > muck-raking, but genuine concern for the well being of the > project. To simply ask them to be quiet and trust that Core, > like a wise parent, will know what's best is degrading at best, > and an insult to them. > > Core is a group of very intelligent and hard working people, > however the project does not soley belong to them. Locking out > the rest of the community on an important issue such as this > alienates many who may otherwise support Core's actions. > Obviously a great many people believe that they have a right to > determine what's best for the project, exclusion from Core > not-withstanding. At the very least, all that they ask is for > full information on an important issue like this. > > If nobody from the inner circle will explain why such a move as > this was made, many project participants will reconsider their > involvement with the project. Secrecy within Core, membership > changes without explaination, and cover-up of the events > afterwards do little to convey an image of stability where it > is needed most. > > If nobody is willing to explain what happened, and why, perhaps > it is time for the project to reconsider it's philosophy as a > project that belongs to whomever wishes to participate. Perhaps > it's time to redeclare the project as the domain of those who > sit in the positions of influence. I don't believe this to be > the case, but events like this may persuade others that this is > indeed the current state of affairs. > > Regards, Well said Benjamin, And your points are reasonable and well taken. I am hoping for the people involved to allow a reasonable "cooling off" period before things are said in haste that could cut even deeper. And especially, I would like everyone to allow Matt to speak for himself in this matter, when _he_ feels ready to. Regards, Stephen Hilton nospam@hiltonbsd.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 15:59:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C065437B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0F943E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h13Nxo3J005147 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:59:51 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:59:50 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> In-Reply-To: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302041059.50869.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Retain the right of a person to speak for themselves, > or remain silent if that is their wish. If people want to find out more about why this occured, why not simply=20 communicate with dillion himself. After all if he wishes to defend=20 himself/comment, let him do it himself. If he does have a case, let him d= o it=20 on this list. If not, rest in peace. Regards, Jacob =20 Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16: 5:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75EF137B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0620943E4A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3670451971; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:35:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:35:36 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , Robert Watson , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexandr Kovalenko , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204000536.GH70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030203184103.K16840@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 4 February 2003 at 0:43:26 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Marc G. Fournier" writes: >> the thing is, you have on the one side -core that wants him gone, and, >> from what I can see, non-core that doesn't want him gone ... > > That is not the case. As I mentioned earlier, what you see is not necessarily what happened. A few points: 1. Before removing dillon, we had had numerous requests from committers ("non-core") to do so. We resisted for over a year. 2. We have had approximately the same number of people say "Wrong, fool!" and "Thank you, finally". The differences are i. The first group are mainly not src committers, and they complain in public. ii. The second group are not src committers, and they thank us in private. I don't know what that is, and I'm not objecting to public criticism, but it's a thing to consider when evaluating the community response. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16: 5:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B9F37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1879943E4A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h1405hD02848; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:05:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:05:43 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030203234013.GF70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > What I can say is that yes, I too have experienced > dillon the way you describe him, friendly, helpful and effective. > Unfortunately, he's not always like that. So the issue is, (a) Matt's work, and his presence on mailing lists, is very valuable (according to us users); (b) his attitude with other developers is not helpful (according to developers). Linux has faced far worse problems, with (apparently) much more prickly developers, and still worked things out. See, eg, these two related articles -- http://lwn.net/Articles/8093/ http://lwn.net/Articles/8123/ Surely some such thing can be worked out with Matt too, if he's amenable -- have him continue to contribute, both to the code and to the mailing lists (I assume he's not banned from there), but filter his commits through someone else who gets along with him (surely there must be someone who does)? It would be a pity to lose his presence totally. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:29:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C609B37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF73E43FB9 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:29:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04524; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:28:37 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203172657.00e72580@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:28:34 -0700 To: Chad David From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: "M. L. Dodson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030203223127.GC29380@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:31 PM 2/3/2003, Chad David wrote: >Where did that come from? What has -core done that could be >considered vindictive? Very recently, a small group of -core members also attempted to invent reasons to remove me from all of the FreeBSD mailing lists due to personal vendettas. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:30:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4487937B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B8043F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0F5A251971; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:00:14 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:00:14 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204003013.GI70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030203234013.GF70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 3 February 2003 at 19:05:43 -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> What I can say is that yes, I too have experienced >> dillon the way you describe him, friendly, helpful and effective. >> Unfortunately, he's not always like that. > > So the issue is, (a) Matt's work, and his presence on mailing lists, > is very valuable (according to us users); (b) his attitude with other > developers is not helpful (according to developers). Yes, that's the sum of it. > Linux has faced far worse problems, with (apparently) much more > prickly developers, and still worked things out. See, eg, these > two related articles -- > http://lwn.net/Articles/8093/ > http://lwn.net/Articles/8123/ > > Surely some such thing can be worked out with Matt too, if he's > amenable -- have him continue to contribute, both to the code and to > the mailing lists (I assume he's not banned from there), No. He has posted a few comments on the situation. > but filter his commits through someone else who gets along with him > (surely there must be someone who does)? This was one of the options we considered. On the face of it, it looks reasonable, but it didn't work out. > It would be a pity to lose his presence totally. Agreed. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:30:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC8337B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880CC43F85; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 5FD55536F; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:30:45 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 01:30:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:05:43 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Surely some such thing can be worked out with Matt too, if he's > amenable -- have him continue to contribute, both to the code and to > the mailing lists (I assume he's not banned from there), but filter > his commits through someone else who gets along with him (surely there > must be someone who does)? That has been tried in the past. What most of you don't realize is that this has been going on for at least four years (that I can recall). It's not like core suddenly decided last week that they didn't like Matt. > It would be a pity to lose his presence > totally. That is entirely up to Matt himself. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:32:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376A137B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360E943F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04582; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:31:57 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203173123.00e71ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:31:54 -0700 To: Benjamin Krueger , Stephen Hilton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> References: <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:34 PM 2/3/2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote: >Core is a group of very intelligent and hard working people, >however the project does not soley belong to them. Alas, some of them (fortunately, not all!) act as if it does. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:36:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C33A37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B03B43F85; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04656; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:35:44 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203173413.00e71630@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:35:40 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030203190543.M1455@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:30 PM 2/3/2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >What most of you don't realize is that this has been going on for at >least four years (that I can recall). It's not like core suddenly >decided last week that they didn't like Matt. Perhaps so. But there appears to have been a disturbing sea change in -core, in which more Core Team members seem to be acting out longstanding grudges. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:42:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CC037B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:42:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F2043F79 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8A53151971; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:12:14 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:12:14 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Stephen Hilton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204004214.GJ70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 3 February 2003 at 15:34:22 -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * Stephen Hilton (nospam@hiltonbsd.com) [030203 14:50]: >> Does joining the project involve signing a full-disclosure >> contract regarding all issues public and private? >> >> Think about this people... >> >> Would you join knowing that your "Permanent Record" was >> to be displayed at the whim of a "public" request. >> >> How have we gotten to this point where "stirring the pot" >> and sensationalist muck-raking is a common "sport". >> >> Are we looking for a "McCarthy" list of other names and >> details about this situation, to broaden the scope of >> the "investigation". >> >> Retain the right of a person to speak for themselves, >> or remain silent if that is their wish. >> >> Regards, >> >> Stephen Hilton >> nospam@hiltonbsd.com > > I have held the notion, from the very first day of my experience > with FreeBSD, that the Project belonged to everyone involved. > Core, Committers, Developers, Testers, and Users alike. "All project members are equal, only some are more equal than others". Seriously, we need a hierarchy. You can't expect casual users to have as much say in the project as the people who live and sleep FreeBSD 24 hours a day. > Many people are now objecting to the removal of a valuable > contributor to the project. People who quietly participate in > the background, without fuss. Their concern is not sport or > muck-raking, but genuine concern for the well being of the > project. To simply ask them to be quiet and trust that Core, > like a wise parent, will know what's best is degrading at best, > and an insult to them. Core was elected to know what's best. To suggest that people who elected core didn't know what they were doing is insulting. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:46:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C9F37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F183B43F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h140kLHl015791; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:46:24 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3417F02C-35FF-11D7-9E46-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:45:36 +0100 To: Drew Raines From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Political implications (was: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:49 AM -0600 2003/02/03, Drew Raines wrote: > I realize Bush is a politician, but why must every last decision he > make be political? Perhaps he actually cares about the security of > the United States and its inhabitants. I'm as cynical as the next > guy, but maybe his efforts are actually in everyone's best > interests and not just his own. If that was true, he wouldn't have just hired as his new top security guy the "genius" who architected the Microsoft security system and gave us SQL Slammer. > Clinton apparently brainwashed the world into thinking every United > States president is morally corrupt and self-serving. At worst, > Bush has proven himself to be a determined man of action. I'll > take that any day over recalcitrance or patronizing lip service. Clinton was a moron, too. He was just a smarter moron than Bush. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:46:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC54237B408 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1BE43FA7 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h140kLHj015791; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:46:23 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <49650.198.137.241.11.1044283121.squirrel@m.vocito.com> References: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <49650.198.137.241.11.1044283121.squirrel@m.vocito.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:43:15 +0100 To: howardjp@vocito.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: , , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:38 AM -0500 2003/02/03, James P. Howard II wrote: > Take the tin foil off your head and think it through. If the tiles were > damaged and the left wing were heating internally, OF COURSE a tire is > going to blow out. Key word "if". At this stage, we don't know. It could have been a fire resulting from a tire that was over-filled with Nitrogen and blew up, it could have been a fire resulting from a tire filled with Oxygen instead of Nitrogen, it could have been any number of things. Right now, we don't know. I submit that we will never know all the facts that NASA learns from this process, and that it will take NASA a long time to discover all the facts that they ultimately uncover. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:46:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D76837B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C402A43FA7 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h140kLHn015791; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:46:25 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E3EACA8.D3C4310F@mindspring.com> References: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E3EACA8.D3C4310F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:48:46 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: Brad Knowles , JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:53 AM -0800 2003/02/03, Terry Lambert wrote: > The bad guys do not need a handbook on how to think about getting > around the (obvious, after analysis) holes in security and other > protocols at NASA, or airports, nor do they need suggestions on how > to perform their acts successfully. I worked for over five years at the Pentagon. One lesson I learned early is that there is no scheme you or I or anyone else can come up with that the bad guys haven't probably already thought of. It is the duty of people who consider themselves to be good guys to come up with every single whacked-out idea they can, bring them up (albeit in the proper channels) and let them be analyzed and categorized, and if considered to be a serious threat, then obviously someone will be responsible for doing something to try to at least detect that type of attack before it occurs or to lessen the potential effects of such an attack. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:47:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C959237B405; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7027343FE7; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:46:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h140kLHv015791; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:46:45 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030203185401.GA31527@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20030203185401.GA31527@nevermind.kiev.ua> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:21:33 +0100 To: Alexandr Kovalenko From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, dillon@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org, Mark Murray , Robert Watson Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:54 PM +0200 2003/02/03, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > I think we (FreeBSD users/contributors community) need to know why. I > suspect it was a some internal war (maybe offending postings/commit > logs/etc) I don't know exactly what it was. I don't think it was enough > to remove his commit bit. With that reason we then should also remove > obrien@'s commit bit (he also was a little bit offending sometimes). Yes, Matt was one of the more productive people on the project. However, historically he has also been one of the most obnoxious. It was cross-fire between him and PHK that cost me any possibility of ever working for Jordan Hubbard and company-de-jure, but considering that Jordan is now gone and the company has cratered, that's probably not a loss. With talented people like this, you tend to make allowances. But that can only go so far. Keep in mind that this is not the first time he has lost his commit bit. Indeed, it's ironic that Mark was the one to remove his commit bit this time. Mark was strongly encouraging me to get more heavily involved in FreeBSD again (after my previous mis-encounters with Jordan), and he was praising Matt as having actually calmed down and become a much more civil person, etc.... For Mark to have been the person to remove Matt's commit bit, I know that this process would have to have been by consensus throughout -core, and I know that it must have have really hurt him to have to be the person to do it. But I also have some sense of Mark's commitment to FreeBSD, and that he (and the other members of -core) must have felt that this was the only way they could deal with whatever it was that Matt had done. One way or the other, we have lost talented people in the past. I'm sure that we will lose talented people in the future. The key thing is for -core to keep the good of the project in mind, and to make sure that FreeBSD continues to survive regardless of who comes or goes, when, or under what circumstances. I hope that this issue can be resolved without Matt leaving the project, and that he gets his commit bit restored relatively soon. I highly value his work, but not at the expense of the entire project. I will say that I feel it is now incumbent upon Mark and the other members of -core to summarize the situation and give us sufficient details to explain what happened and why. What I've seen so far from Robert Watson is a start, but only a start. In order to put this situation for the larger FreeBSD community to rights, we need more. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:48:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FDD37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35ED43FE9 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h140kLHh015791; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:46:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030202231612.B63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20030202231612.B63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:39:15 +0100 To: "f.johan.beisser" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: Larry Sica , Brad Knowles , John Martinez , , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:30 PM -0800 2003/02/02, f.johan.beisser wrote: > the shuttles are past their original useful life expectancy. we'll see > more "minor" failures before another spectacular one. Theoretically, they were designed for 100 missions, and Columbia was only about 1/4 the way to the end of its life. > i don't know of a single SAM or AAM that can get to that altitude, it > would have been detected, and on radar well before hitting the shuttle. > the return flight is plotted out, and very heavily monitored by many > different agencies (FAA, NASA, USAF, etc) for anything that might be a > problem. It wasn't a missile, that much I am convinced of. Or, if it was, it was a missile at higher altitude and the gov't wants to cover it up -- maybe because it was fired by some supposedly non-existent and probably illegal satellite platform, or maybe a very high-flying and still highly classified near space interceptor aircraft. However, I find those possibilities highly unlikely. > getting a bomb to the shuttle is what's left for an external cause. very > unlikely. NASA's launch facilities are well guarded, and the launch > vehicle is heavily protected and examined before even getting to the > launch pad. once there, it's under more guard, cameras, and key. NASA has > no qualms in stopping or delaying a launch for any reason, we've seen that > over the last 10 years. I'm also not concerned about a bomb. I'm much more concerned about sabotage, especially since it could be extremely subtle -- such as filling the tires with Oxygen instead of Nitrogen. > this is a "simple" failure. something went horribly wrong, and there's > nothing that could have been done to prevent it. I hope it was a simple failure, but if so then I believe that there could have been something done to prevent it. Whatever that something is, it will most likely be done most of the time over the next group of shuttle launches, until something else goes wrong and we lose yet another one. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:56:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0324F37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914794416A; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 67D1051971; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:25:11 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:25:11 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, dillon@FreeBSD.org, Mark Murray , Robert Watson Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204005511.GL70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030203185401.GA31527@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 4 February 2003 at 1:21:33 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > For Mark to have been the person to remove Matt's commit bit, I > know that this process would have to have been by consensus > throughout -core, and I know that it must have have really hurt him > to have to be the person to do it. Mark did not remove dillon's commit bit. Core did. Mark was simply the one left holding the baby when it came to sending out the text we had prepared. > But I also have some sense of Mark's commitment to FreeBSD, > and that he (and the other members of -core) must have felt that > this was the only way they could deal with whatever it was that Matt > had done. Yes, this is correct. Remember the time factor. The first time I met dillon, he had just had his commit bit suspended (in June 1999). Since then, we've been having trouble nearly all the time. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 16:58: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0920F37B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E4843F43; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:57:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04959; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:57:51 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203175427.027d6c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:57:49 -0700 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Benjamin Krueger From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Stephen Hilton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030204004214.GJ70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030203151321.02832330@localhost> <20030203165428.78db73f6.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> <20030203233422.GH27674@surreal.seattlefenix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:42 PM 2/3/2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >"All project members are equal, only some are more equal than others". > >Seriously, we need a hierarchy. You can't expect casual users to have >as much say in the project as the people who live and sleep FreeBSD 24 >hours a day. Written by perhaps the most elitist member of -core. The fact is that many users, system administrators, and occasional contributors "live and sleep FreeBSD 24 hours a day" even though they're not on -core. (They don't have time to be.) >Core was elected to know what's best. And just because they were elected (by a minority of the community!) they automatically know what they're doing and are benevolent. Just like some politicians I could name. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 17: 0:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B5937B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 865B143E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0354.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.99] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18frRt-0006SY-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:00:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3F0F4A.3A531CE9@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:54:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Larry Sica , "f.johan.beisser" , John Martinez , barbish@a1poweruser.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: <3E3EB480.87EE0356@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4f79e2b65f9fb48854dad7b5615f2ee193ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > This is unlikely to remain true in the future. With this most > > recent loss, the U.S. has lost 25% of it's heavy lift capability, > > and if you include the Challenger, it has lost 40% of the designed > > total heavy lift capability. > > Columbia wasn't doing any heavy life for the ISS. As the oldest > shuttle in the fleet, it couldn't carry enough cargo to do the job. > Instead, it was taking on the other missions that it could do and > freeing up the other vehicles to do more heavy lift. > > That's still a loss in heavy lift capacity (due to increased > competition), but a less direct one. The U.S. heavy lift capability is all shuttle; even if the Russians were lifting all the really heavy components (they were), the shuttle represents the U.S. capability. The Delta that supposedly has a huge capacity measures that capacity to LEO, not GEO, and it's capacity to GEO is tiny. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 17: 7:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A024737B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B6C43E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1417nHh019812; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:07:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E3F0F4A.3A531CE9@mindspring.com> References: <3E3EB480.87EE0356@mindspring.com> <3E3F0F4A.3A531CE9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:07:40 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: Brad Knowles , Larry Sica , "f.johan.beisser" , John Martinez , barbish@a1poweruser.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:54 PM -0800 2003/02/03, Terry Lambert wrote: > The U.S. heavy lift capability is all shuttle; even if the Russians > were lifting all the really heavy components (they were), the > shuttle represents the U.S. capability. Yes, but while the shuttle fleet represents the sum total of US heavy lift capacity, with regards to the ISS Columbia wasn't doing any heavy lift -- at most, it was doing other heavy lift in lower orbits which would otherwise have been done by one of the other shuttles which *was* (is) doing heavy lift for the ISS. So, losing Columbia is a loss in the overall US heavy lift capacity. Towards that end, this reduces heavy lift for ISS, because there is now more competition for the capacity on the other shuttles. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 17:10:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0107137B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3880243F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0354.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.99] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18frb8-0007iM-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:10:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3F1184.5C0A56AB@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:04:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E3EACA8.D3C4310F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a498a8747bb0c81780f93f6428dafe0079667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:53 AM -0800 2003/02/03, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The bad guys do not need a handbook on how to think about getting > > around the (obvious, after analysis) holes in security and other > > protocols at NASA, or airports, nor do they need suggestions on how > > to perform their acts successfully. > > I worked for over five years at the Pentagon. One lesson I > learned early is that there is no scheme you or I or anyone else can > come up with that the bad guys haven't probably already thought of. I find that extremely unlikely, actually, or the bad guys would already have won, since there are a lot of minimal effort things that you could do to disrupt the U.S. economy, if that was your target. The WTC crash was a big deal politically and in terms of human interest, but it didn't significantly disrupt any of the underlying systems, to any real degree. It was an incredibly ineffective act. > It is the duty of people who consider themselves to be good guys > to come up with every single whacked-out idea they can, bring them up > (albeit in the proper channels) and let them be analyzed and > categorized, and if considered to be a serious threat, then obviously > someone will be responsible for doing something to try to at least > detect that type of attack before it occurs or to lessen the > potential effects of such an attack. The threat level is usually based on the probability "the bad guys" will think it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 17:47:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8F037B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from globalhead.caustic.org (ip-66-80-5-169.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.5.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56C343F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by globalhead.caustic.org (8.12.7/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h141l6ae031363; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (localhost.caustic.org [IPv6:::1]) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h141l59U020577; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h141l4qY020574; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) X-Authentication-Warning: pogo.caustic.org: jan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:47:04 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , JacobRhoden , Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup In-Reply-To: <3E3F1184.5C0A56AB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030203173729.U63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > I find that extremely unlikely, actually, or the bad guys would already > have won, since there are a lot of minimal effort things that you could > do to disrupt the U.S. economy, if that was your target. The WTC crash > was a big deal politically and in terms of human interest, but it didn't > significantly disrupt any of the underlying systems, to any real degree. agreed.. except.. > It was an incredibly ineffective act. no, it was remarkably effective. if you're not going for the underlying systems (a difficult target to hurt in any real meaningful way), you end up going for media coverage. terrorism is effective because it creates FUD, and the WTC attacks were just that. if you want to create FUD in an entire country, you have to create something unbelievable. it's not dropping bombs on people, it's creating something so mediagenic that it can't be ignored. it has to look good on camera. i'm fairly convinced the timing of the impacts was intentional, designed to get live media coverage over as much of the world as possible. in that regard, it worked very, very well. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends." -- Tom Waits To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 18:35:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F17737B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CFA43F85 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:35:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0354.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.99] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18fsvd-0006ux-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:35:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3F24FE.CB214F38@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:27:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Brad Knowles , JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: <20030203173729.U63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43afc17267879856074c046eb0129df99548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: [ ... 11 September ... ] > > It was an incredibly ineffective act. > > no, it was remarkably effective. > > if you're not going for the underlying systems (a difficult target to hurt > in any real meaningful way), you end up going for media coverage. > terrorism is effective because it creates FUD, and the WTC attacks were > just that. > > if you want to create FUD in an entire country, you have to create > something unbelievable. it's not dropping bombs on people, it's creating > something so mediagenic that it can't be ignored. it has to look good on > camera. > > i'm fairly convinced the timing of the impacts was intentional, designed > to get live media coverage over as much of the world as possible. > > in that regard, it worked very, very well. Except that the media coverage didn't have and causative value. An event that "looks good on camera" only works as well as your ability to associate yourself with the event, so that the media spotlight is on you/your issue/whatever. If they had called in and claimed credit, or told us what we should stop doing to avoid it happening again, or what we should do that we weren't doing, to avoid it happening again, then I might agree with you. As it is, it didn't. They apparently got some funding out of it, by shorting the stocks of the airlines involved, through a stock exchange in Germany, and that's about it. The shorting they did doesn't touch the assets frozen as a result of the act, so it was a *big* net loss for them. So what was the payoff? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 18:49:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8C037B405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from globalhead.caustic.org (ip-66-80-5-169.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.5.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD4D43FA3 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by globalhead.caustic.org (8.12.7/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h142nTae027532; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (localhost.caustic.org [IPv6:::1]) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h142nS9U021136; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h142nRRM021133; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) X-Authentication-Warning: pogo.caustic.org: jan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:49:27 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , JacobRhoden , Subject: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) In-Reply-To: <3E3F24FE.CB214F38@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030203183710.N63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > Except that the media coverage didn't have and causative value. > An event that "looks good on camera" only works as well as your > ability to associate yourself with the event, so that the media > spotlight is on you/your issue/whatever. assuming you WANT the association. if you don't want, or don't care, and just want to create confusion and general fear, which seems to be one of the main objectives of the al Qaeda... > If they had called in and claimed credit, or told us what we > should stop doing to avoid it happening again, or what we should > do that we weren't doing, to avoid it happening again, then I > might agree with you. i'm not so sure. i grew up with various bomb threats and attempted bombings while in germany. many times, it was simply motivated by a dislike of americans. terrorism doesn't always have an aboveboard objective, or even one you'd really agree with as being rational. > As it is, it didn't. They apparently got some funding out of it, > by shorting the stocks of the airlines involved, through a stock > exchange in Germany, and that's about it. The shorting they did > doesn't touch the assets frozen as a result of the act, so it was > a *big* net loss for them. > > So what was the payoff? Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt would be payoff enough. instead of looking at the immidiate payoff, look at the long term. this wasn't something done for financial gain, not directly. if you are at war, you don't think directly in terms of financial gain. the WTC attacks were guerrilla warfare. inexpensive, fast, and not repeatable. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends." -- Tom Waits To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 19:23:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFCD37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:23:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13401.mail.yahoo.com (web13401.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D33C43E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030204032321.82775.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.160] by web13401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 04:23:21 CET Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:23:21 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What the heck, I've been hanging around the BSD lists for a while, and I have to admit what happened to Matt was not really a surprise as let's say... I've learned to read the signs. FreeBSD is growing day by day, and since there is no real hierarchy in the development, discussions are very likely to produce these results when someone with strong caracter finds other people in his way. It's probably not a coincidence that the VM is an area where the pressure is critical. It's not the first time Matt looses his commit bit, let's hope this doesn't stop him from doing his great job, and that the commit door is not closed indefinitely. The FreeBSD core team is acting as a real team, and coordinating resources and developers like FreeBSD is doing is not trivial. Many good people have failed or resigned where this brave people are still standing. All I can say is that if they did right they will be reelected and if they did wrong the system will find a way to punish them. I suggest all non developers, and the people that don't understand EXACTLY what is happening, restrain from making this more than a what it is: a small miscommunication among partners in a gigantic but successful project. Believe it or not, worse things have happened on other camps and the world still keeps on. As you might guess, I don't really think anyone was right or wrong here, things just happen and it's up to the community to help solve this problems or make them worse. best regards, Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 19:47:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93AA37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400543F3F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0354.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.99] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18fu3N-0007mw-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 19:47:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3F35B7.1A94A309@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 19:38:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Brad Knowles , JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) References: <20030203183710.N63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a455c81a06ea5e5694965092716471afff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Except that the media coverage didn't have and causative value. > > An event that "looks good on camera" only works as well as your > > ability to associate yourself with the event, so that the media > > spotlight is on you/your issue/whatever. > > assuming you WANT the association. if you don't want, or don't care, and > just want to create confusion and general fear, which seems to be one of > the main objectives of the al Qaeda... Then throw everyone out of work. That's a much better way to get that across: cause an economic depression. Not knowing where your next meal is coming from is a great spur to confusion and general fear. > > If they had called in and claimed credit, or told us what we > > should stop doing to avoid it happening again, or what we should > > do that we weren't doing, to avoid it happening again, then I > > might agree with you. > > i'm not so sure. i grew up with various bomb threats and attempted > bombings while in germany. many times, it was simply motivated by a > dislike of americans. > > terrorism doesn't always have an aboveboard objective, or even one you'd > really agree with as being rational. No, but it always has an objective. There is always an economic balance for the perceived cost of the act. You can usually deduce from the actual effect (or the intended effect) what the objective was. The WTC cost them time, training, and dedicated personnel which could have been used for other purposes. The reason it was done was that it was perceived to have the highest cost/benefit ratio of the available options for action. > > So what was the payoff? > > Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt would be payoff enough. instead of looking at > the immidiate payoff, look at the long term. this wasn't something done > for financial gain, not directly. The payoff in an economic sense, not the payoff in a financial sense. As in a payoff whose value equals or exceeds the cost. We know what it cost them; the question is what did they expect to gain from it that they valued. The obvious answer is "to damage the U.S. economically, thereby making it less able to carry out foreign policy", but it's not the only possible one; the point is, there *is* an answer. > if you are at war, you don't think directly in terms of financial gain. No, you think in terms of winning. If it's a real war, and not a play war, and you are fighting for your survival against an implacable foe, then if you are smart, you think in terms of destroying your opponent utterly, and plowing salt into his fields, so that he can never threaten you again. Ever. You are William Tecumseh Sherman. You use every weapon in your arsenal, without hesitation. > the WTC attacks were guerrilla warfare. inexpensive, fast, and not > repeatable. They are perfectly repeatable, at least in terms of using some civilian commercial aircraft as weapons. It will merely cost slightly more to repeat it, next time, than it cost them this time, and that's only if they wish to repeat it in a relatively short time frame. As a military act, destroying one shuttle in such a way as to cause the other three to be grounded indefinitely would be up there, if you planned to act in an area within a time window sufficient that the existing in-place assets were useless, and you wanted to prevent that lack being remedied, for example. For something like *that*, you wouldn't claim credit, because claiming credit would unpin the other resources, and the distal target was the pinned resources, and the proximal target was just a means. Not claiming credit for the WTC was just plain dumb, given that the FUD of whether or not the event was accidental, was just not there, with it being a coordinated attack with more than one participant. If just one plane had hit one target, you would never have known it was even a hijacking, and not a nutso pilot, which could have grounded planes for a *lot* longer, while everyone wondered why he snapped, and how he was able to keep people out of the cockpit long enough to do the job, and whether or not other pilots were at similar risk of snapping or "copycat" acts. Now *that's* FUD. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 21:14:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4902437B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13406.mail.yahoo.com (web13406.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A8A7F43FA7 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030204051447.20954.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.167] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 06:14:47 CET Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:14:47 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As someone that lives in a very violent country, and that happened to be in the US during Sept.11 ... Let me say Sept. 11 was really effective as an attack to the US. Not because of the dead (which were not that many compared to so many other tragic events in the history of the world) or by the evident impact and confusion in the american people, but rather due to the extremely dumb behaviour from the US goverment. Contrary to what average americans tend to think, the International community: 1) Doesn't consider George Bush the "leader of the free world". 2) Doesn't understand the concept of preemptive war. 3) Is aware that invading Irak will not make the world more secure. 4) doesn't agree that the US economy is more important than the Kyoto convention. 5) Doesn't appreciate US militaries being above the international court of law. 6) Doesn't consider it cool for the US to unilateraly break the long-range missiles treaty. 7) Doesn't understand the passiveness of treatment of Israel's violations to international law. In general, I think the causes for Sept. 11 are as alive today as in Sept 11, but now the world, with a possible exception of the UK, seems to dislike more the US. Of course I'm not saying the causes would justify the tragical events. I doubt very much the Shuttle incident was related to terrorism, what I do think, is that the US will have to learn to live with terrorism just like everyone else in the world has done, and that a big sofisticated army will not solve the problem :(. Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 21:28:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3654837B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wolfbert.skynet.be (wolfbert.skynet.be [195.238.3.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF37743F75 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by wolfbert.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-FALLBACK-2.22) with ESMTP id h140mCZp010301 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:48:12 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h140kLHp015791; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:46:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E3EB480.87EE0356@mindspring.com> References: <3E3EB480.87EE0356@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:50:42 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup Cc: Larry Sica , "f.johan.beisser" , Brad Knowles , John Martinez , barbish@a1poweruser.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:27 AM -0800 2003/02/03, Terry Lambert wrote: > This is unlikely to remain true in the future. With this most > recent loss, the U.S. has lost 25% of it's heavy lift capability, > and if you include the Challenger, it has lost 40% of the designed > total heavy lift capability. Columbia wasn't doing any heavy life for the ISS. As the oldest shuttle in the fleet, it couldn't carry enough cargo to do the job. Instead, it was taking on the other missions that it could do and freeing up the other vehicles to do more heavy lift. That's still a loss in heavy lift capacity (due to increased competition), but a less direct one. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 21:37:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB83937B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062D743F85 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:37:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <20030204053721053003m8m6e>; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 05:37:22 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h145aR5F087859 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h145aMWA087856; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:36:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Subject: Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup References: <200302031346.34040.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <49650.198.137.241.11.1044283121.squirrel@m.vocito.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 03 Feb 2003 21:36:21 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > it could have been any number of things. With highly-engineered systems like the shuttle, the number is usually about 3 or 4, almost never 1. Like: poorly-applied (1) insulation blows off, airstream blows it against typical tile (with huge force of airstream against foam, not just 2.67 lb at fairly low relative speed), knocking it loose. Re-entry pops it out, taking poorly-applied tile (2) just behind with it. Two-tile strip allows sufficient flow of hot gases to eat under next tile, etc., allowing heat to over-warm wing spar with some hidden corrosion (3) common to the Cape area and straining under the atypical wing loading (4) of the heavy old shuttle with the huge SpaceHab module and the 2.0 G loads created by speed-sheding S-turns, causing wing to break off. Actually, from what I heard today I suspect that there was a burn- through just behind the leading edge between the wheel well and the fuselage, where the pressure and tempurature were so much as to burn right through the upper skin, accounting for the raised temps measured on the left side of the fuselage. Airflow disruption and flapping edges of holes increase drag on that side, causing stability problems. Heat from inside allow more skin/tiles to peel until craft goes unstable (probably from burnt control system, possibly just from abnormal aero-forces), breaking up quickly thereafter. (I remember from 20 years ago reading that aero-control is extremely precarious and tricky in such thin air and high speeds -- so much so that during some portions of the flight, the flaperons must be moved in the "wrong" direction to achieve the right effect. They said today that the attitude rockets fired for a couple of seconds shortly before loss of signals to help the aero-control surfaces keep the thing under control.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 22: 1:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2E337B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418CC43F9B for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:01:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08476; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:01:21 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203225811.0360eb10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:01:20 -0700 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030204032321.82775.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:23 PM 2/3/2003, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >The FreeBSD core team is acting as a real team, and >coordinating resources and developers like FreeBSD is >doing is not trivial. Many good people have failed or >resigned where this brave people are still standing. Is driving away skilled developers such as Matt Dillon and John Dyson an indication of success? The events I've seen lately raise concerns -- at least in my mind -- that the egos and tempers of at least some members of -core are out of control and are badly damaging the project. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 22:56:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84BB737B401; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EEC43F3F; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:56:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h146uhMw003284; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:56:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h146ugxo003283; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:56:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:56:42 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Brad Knowles Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-core@FreeBSD.ORG, Mark Murray , Robert Watson Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204075642.B3230@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030203185401.GA31527@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:21:33AM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:21:33AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:54 PM +0200 2003/02/03, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > > > I think we (FreeBSD users/contributors community) need to know why. I > > suspect it was a some internal war (maybe offending postings/commit > > logs/etc) I don't know exactly what it was. I don't think it was enough > > to remove his commit bit. With that reason we then should also remove > > obrien@'s commit bit (he also was a little bit offending sometimes). > > Yes, Matt was one of the more productive people on the project. > However, historically he has also been one of the most obnoxious. It > was cross-fire between him and PHK that cost me any possibility of > ever working for Jordan Hubbard and company-de-jure, but considering > that Jordan is now gone and the company has cratered, that's probably > not a loss. > > With talented people like this, you tend to make allowances. But > that can only go so far. Keep in mind that this is not the first > time he has lost his commit bit. > > > Indeed, it's ironic that Mark was the one to remove his commit > bit this time. Mark was strongly encouraging me to get more heavily > involved in FreeBSD again (after my previous mis-encounters with > Jordan), and he was praising Matt as having actually calmed down and > become a much more civil person, etc.... > > For Mark to have been the person to remove Matt's commit bit, I > know that this process would have to have been by consensus > throughout -core, and I know that it must have have really hurt him > to have to be the person to do it. It was Mark acting on behalf of core, and any of the core members could have sent the message. There really is no special meaning to be attached to Mark doing the deed. Just FYI. -- | / o / /_ _ FreeBSD core team secretary |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 22:56:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9119E37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F50743E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:56:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 606ED5197A; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:26:51 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:26:51 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204065651.GS53842@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030204032321.82775.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030203225811.0360eb10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203225811.0360eb10@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 3 February 2003 at 23:01:20 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:23 PM 2/3/2003, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > >> The FreeBSD core team is acting as a real team, and >> coordinating resources and developers like FreeBSD is >> doing is not trivial. Many good people have failed or >> resigned where this brave people are still standing. > > Is driving away skilled developers such as Matt Dillon > and John Dyson an indication of success? Yes. It's an indication of a spectacular lack of success. It needs to be tempered by other reasons, as in the first case, and truth, as in the second. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 23:24: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F8837B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D31D43F93 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from temperanza@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 10276 invoked by uid 417); 4 Feb 2003 07:23:56 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO jive.SoftHome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 4 Feb 2003 07:23:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 10257 invoked by uid 417); 4 Feb 2003 07:23:56 -0000 Received: from adsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO dsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (63.194.84.111) by 192.168.0.5 with SMTP; 4 Feb 2003 07:23:56 -0000 Received: from tomoyo (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:23:55 -0800 (PST)dsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h147Nt8S069557 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from temperanza@softhome.net) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:23:55 -0800 From: La Temperanza To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PR database suggestion Message-Id: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps there should be a sorting index on the FreeBSD PR database to gauge interest in PRs. This could be calculated by number of page requests, or if you think it's more objective you can have viewers specifically register their interest. This should provide a less bogus indication of how serious or otherwise in-demand a particular problem is. Minor but long-standing beef will also crawl its way up to the top, by which time it may be disgustingly outdated and useless, but at least that helps clean up the database a little. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 23:48:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31AE037B401 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9468943E4A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:48:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0021.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.21] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18fxoW-0005Fz-00; Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:48:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3F6B9F.CFC27B05@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:28:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) References: <20030204051447.20954.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a464ed0d36c179d28a3c38235d1ebd6f2a3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, a military/political discussion in -chat beats the other topic of the day... "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > As someone that lives in a very violent country, and > that happened to be in the US during Sept.11 ... > > Let me say Sept. 11 was really effective as an attack > to the US. Not because of the dead (which were not > that many compared to so many other tragic events in > the history of the world) or by the evident impact and > confusion in the american people, but rather due to > the extremely dumb behaviour from the US goverment. > > Contrary to what average americans tend to think, the > International community: [ ... list of disbeliefs about behaviour ... ] None of this is "dumb behaviour resulting from the attack on the WTC". So how, specifically, does this make the attack on the WTC "effective"? What is the "effect" it has had? > In general, I think the causes for Sept. 11 are as > alive today as in Sept 11, but now the world, with a > possible exception of the UK, seems to dislike more > the US. Of course I'm not saying the causes would > justify the tragical events. > > I doubt very much the Shuttle incident was related to > terrorism, what I do think, is that the US will have > to learn to live with terrorism just like everyone > else in the world has done, and that a big > sofisticated army will not solve the problem :(. If the intended effect was to make the U.S. act in a way which makes it seem heavy-handed, in an effort to curb it engaging in enforcing foreign policy, as you imply, then I will tell you that that effect is irrelevent to U.S. enforcement of its foreign policy. The U.S. currently *chooses* to live with terrorism. The terrorists exist solely on the sufferage of the U.S. being willing to continue to trade individual lives for international good will, which, for some unfathomable reason, it values highly. But so far, the continued existance of the U.S. has not been credibly threatened. Let me be blunt. Some people in the world don't seem to understand the concept of "Total War". Israel does, and the incompletely occupied nations that fought the Axis in World War II do, and most certainly the former Soviet Republics do. Others do as well, but those are the ones which are certain. Let me point out that Perl Harbor was attacked on December 7, 1941. The U.S. began the Manhattan Project on September 17, 1942, and developed, built, tested, and deployed in combat the first atomic bomb on August 6, 1945 and the second on August 9, 1945, less than three calendar years later. Let me also point out that we have had nearly 60 years, in the interim, to improve our technology. The problem with not understanding "Total War" is that you somehow believe that there is no such thing as "sufficient provocation" for some reactions, or that some scenarios are "unthinkable", just because you yourself would never think them. Usually, these are younger people, who never had to practice "duck and cover!" exercises in elementary school, and who have never understood the doctorine behind the Cold War never becoming a Hot War, MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction. Rather than lose such a war, both sides were willing and able to destroy all life on Earth. Now most of the issues between Isreal and the people who wish to destroy it, and believe the only thing preventing this is "U.S. interference" arise from the fact that they do not understand that Israel would use atomic weapons on their own borders, exposing their own population to the effects of the weapons, if the alternative were the destruction of Israel. "But that's unthinkable!", they say. So these enemies of Israel rattle their sabres and bang their shields, and threaten the U.S. to try to get it to "Withdraw support from Israel so that we my destroy it!", not realizing the consequences, were they to make the attempt, and not realizing the U.S. is *not* protecting Israel, it is protecting them *from* Israel's inevitable reaction in such a situation. As to the war on terrorism, let's think about "the unthinkable"... If it comes down to "us or them", I have no doubt the U.S. *will* "solve the problem"; perhaps by engineering an enthnicity specific class 5 pneumo-virus, most likely targetting mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited matrilineally, using information obtained from the human genome project, to destroy its enemies utterly, down to the last living cell, before letting them destroy the U.S.. Total War is serious business. Then the U.S. will feel bad about having done this, and erect monuments to its fallen enemies (who will remain fallen), and protest power systems and other products which use technology similar to that used in the war, out of the same sense of guilt that surrounds the use of nuclear power in the U.S. today. All I can say is God help the terrorists, if they ever succeed in becoming a credible threat to the continued existance of the U.S., because the U.S. believes in Total War. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 0:25:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F12237B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D9943F3F; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:25:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h148PXWK071152; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:25:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h148PVpS071151; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:25:31 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:25:31 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Robert Watson Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Robert Watson! On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 04:41:33PM -0500, you wrote: > > > [why was Matt Dillon's commit bit removed] > > > > Short version: there was a difference of opinions. > > I think there should be "short version", but that this is not quite it. > > The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow > developers with the civility and respect that they deserve. The FreeBSD I really don't care how and how much were hurt feeling of any FreeBSD developer by any offending actions of Matt, but I do care what he did and (hopefully) will do for FreeBSD project. In areas were most of you are not interested even if we (users) interested, Matt helped a lot. I repeat: I don't care for your personal feelings, I do care for what Matt really did. > Project attempts to foster a productive environment for development; sure, > as with any online community, it's going to have its share of > disagreements and occasional flames. It's hard to imagine any e-mail list > without occasional fiery and enthusiastic disagreement. However, there > are times when individuals may step beyond the scope of what is considered > reasonable, expected, or acceptable. Obviously, this is subject to > interpretation and debate, but I'd ask that those passing judgement on > this action take into account that this was given long and hard > consideration, and that it was not a decision taken lightly or without > regret. I can repeat another my statement: remove obrien@'s commit bit. With the same reason. I don't think that you will. -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 0:42: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4C037B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from globalhead.caustic.org (ip-66-80-5-169.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.5.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A5A43F75 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by globalhead.caustic.org (8.12.7/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h148fmae022422; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (localhost.caustic.org [IPv6:::1]) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h148fl9U023810; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:41:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h148fel5023807; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) X-Authentication-Warning: pogo.caustic.org: jan owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , JacobRhoden , Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) In-Reply-To: <3E3F35B7.1A94A309@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030204000148.B63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > Then throw everyone out of work. That's a much better way to get that > across: cause an economic depression. Not knowing where your next meal > is coming from is a great spur to confusion and general fear. yes. but to actually accomplish that, through a military means takes more than what any terrorist network has. in country vs country, working like that might be an option. > No, but it always has an objective. There is always an economic > balance for the perceived cost of the act. not always. people, even when there's minor amounts of training involved, are relatively inexpensive. manpower is something that's not a severely limited resource in this case. even self sacrificing ones. > You can usually deduce from the actual effect (or the intended > effect) what the objective was. > > The WTC cost them time, training, and dedicated personnel which > could have been used for other purposes. The reason it was done > was that it was perceived to have the highest cost/benefit ratio > of the available options for action. the cost, to the leadership, may not seem that high. > The payoff in an economic sense, not the payoff in a financial > sense. As in a payoff whose value equals or exceeds the cost. i don't believe that anyone involved (with the planning, at least) was expecting the reaction the US had. since the relatively minor (in comparison) attack on the USS Cole and our east african embassies really didn't provoke much of a reaction out of our government and military, the rather powerful reaction the WTC attacks created may not have been expected. at least, not to the extent it came too. > We know what it cost them; the question is what did they expect to gain > from it that they valued. The obvious answer is "to damage the U.S. > economically, thereby making it less able to carry out foreign policy", > but it's not the only possible one; the point is, there *is* an answer. yes, there is. we don't know it, though, and even if we did, we might not understand the reasoning. > No, you think in terms of winning. > > If it's a real war, and not a play war, and you are fighting for > your survival against an implacable foe, then if you are smart, you > think in terms of destroying your opponent utterly, and plowing salt > into his fields, so that he can never threaten you again. Ever. > You are William Tecumseh Sherman. You use every weapon in your > arsenal, without hesitation. you use every weekness you can, but not all at once. you plan, you weaken, you do more planning. again, looking at this from "their" point of view, they're dealing with a better armed, better equipped, and better funded foe. that foe isn't a military one, initially. it's a concept, that concept is "America" and "Americans." this isn't a stand up war, it's a war against a culture seen as corrupt and base. the people who sacrifice themselves are working to preserve something they believe in, more than a concept of self. > They are perfectly repeatable, at least in terms of using some > civilian commercial aircraft as weapons. It will merely cost > slightly more to repeat it, next time, than it cost them this > time, and that's only if they wish to repeat it in a relatively > short time frame. no, they aren't. this is an attack that would only work once. now that it's been done, hostages will no longer co-operate with hostage takers. the rules have changed for both sides. remember, before September 11th the rule was to co-operate with the hijackers. do what they said, and they'll make their demands, eventually the plane will land, hostages will eventually be let go. negotiations would be made. this is no longer true, that option no longer exists for any would-be hijacker. if it were to be repeated, i suspect it'll happen with a chartered flight, and honestly, a learjet isn't likely to take down an office building. to top it off, the various Air National Guard units on alert are now permitted to shoot down wayward aircraft. it doesn't take the president to do this either. > As a military act, destroying one shuttle in such a way as to cause the > other three to be grounded indefinitely would be up there, if you > planned to act in an area within a time window sufficient that the > existing in-place assets were useless, and you wanted to prevent that > lack being remedied, for example. For something like *that*, you > wouldn't claim credit, because claiming credit would unpin the other > resources, and the distal target was the pinned resources, and the > proximal target was just a means. i'm not convinced, yet. > Not claiming credit for the WTC was just plain dumb, given that the FUD > of whether or not the event was accidental, was just not there, with it > being a coordinated attack with more than one participant. If just one > plane had hit one target, you would never have known it was even a > hijacking, and not a nutso pilot, which could have grounded planes for a > *lot* longer, while everyone wondered why he snapped, and how he was > able to keep people out of the cockpit long enough to do the job, and > whether or not other pilots were at similar risk of snapping or > "copycat" acts. Now *that's* FUD. one impact can be seen as an accident. i admit, when i first woke that morning, i thought the first impact was accidental. while watching CNN, and the SECOND plane hit, i knew it wasn't an accident anymore. untill that second impact, i don't think any flights would have been grounded elsewhere in the US. only, perhaps, on the northeastern coast. did the events of 11 september have an economic fallout? yes. did it cause the US to be highly reactionary? yes. were there "copycat" attacks? yes, but they were minor, and not done by commercial pilots. by not claiming credit for the attacks, and allowing the people who were investigating to figure out the "w's" (who, what, when, where, why?) created a much more paranoid atmosphere. i think the objective, well beyond simply destroying the WTC towers, was accomplished. as far as the WTC towers being a target, i think it can be summed up in four or five words: second time's a charm. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends." -- Tom Waits To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 1: 5:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E017837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489EE43F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B3101536E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:05:17 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:05:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030204051447.20954.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> ("Pedro F. Giffuni"'s message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:14:47 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030204051447.20954.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: > Contrary to what average americans tend to think, the > International community: > > 1) Doesn't consider George Bush the "leader of the > free world". > 2) Doesn't understand the concept of preemptive war. > 3) Is aware that invading Irak will not make the world > more secure. > 4) doesn't agree that the US economy is more important > than the Kyoto convention. > 5) Doesn't appreciate US militaries being above the > international court of law. > 6) Doesn't consider it cool for the US to unilateraly > break the long-range missiles treaty. > 7) Doesn't understand the passiveness of treatment of > Israel's violations to international law. You forgot: 8) Wonders why the US still have a vote in the UN after years of non-payment of their membership dues, while Afghanistan was evicted in its hour of greatest need over a measly half-million USD. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 1:16:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF18437B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from globalhead.caustic.org (ip-66-80-5-169.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.5.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4109243F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by globalhead.caustic.org (8.12.7/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h149Goae009613; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (localhost.caustic.org [IPv6:::1]) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h149Go9U024048; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h149GnbX024045; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) X-Authentication-Warning: pogo.caustic.org: jan owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:16:49 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) In-Reply-To: <3E3F6B9F.CFC27B05@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030204005427.Q63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > Well, a military/political discussion in -chat beats the other > topic of the day... seems to, yes. > The U.S. currently *chooses* to live with terrorism. The > terrorists exist solely on the sufferage of the U.S. being > willing to continue to trade individual lives for international > good will, which, for some unfathomable reason, it values highly. > But so far, the continued existance of the U.S. has not been > credibly threatened. uh. no. the US hasn't chosen to "live with terrorism." not any more than the Germans did in the 70s, or for that matter, how they did in the 40s, after taking over most of France. Terrorism is not a standup war. anyone who's lived with it at any point in their lives knows this. You can't drop bombs on terrorists. You handle them the same way you deal with any other extremist group: you arrest them, or you kill them. many european countries learned this lesson years and years ago, and have kept special anti-terrorist police forces since then. > Let me be blunt. > > Some people in the world don't seem to understand the concept > of "Total War". Israel does, and the incompletely occupied > nations that fought the Axis in World War II do, and most > certainly the former Soviet Republics do. Others do as well, > but those are the ones which are certain. "Total War" works only when all other options have been exausted. Inevitably, it leads to escalation. [snippage of atomic bomb history] > Let me also point out that we have had nearly 60 years, in the > interim, to improve our technology. true. > The problem with not understanding "Total War" is that you somehow > believe that there is no such thing as "sufficient provocation" for some > reactions, or that some scenarios are "unthinkable", just because you > yourself would never think them. Usually, these are younger people, who > never had to practice "duck and cover!" exercises in elementary school, > and who have never understood the doctorine behind the Cold War never > becoming a Hot War, MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction. Rather than lose > such a war, both sides were willing and able to destroy all life on > Earth. i learned those. i hate the fact that i grew up knowing "ABC", and what that ment. we don't use nukes in "this war" because they'd be inneffective. while we can be the 800lb gorilla for a while, we have other sub-super-powers to respect (china, for example), and we have to tip toe around them, like it or not. we're not the only 800lb gorilla annymore. we're just one, and there are a couple 600lb ones hanging out, watching what we'll do. > So these enemies of Israel rattle their sabres and bang their shields, > and threaten the U.S. to try to get it to "Withdraw support from Israel > so that we my destroy it!", not realizing the consequences, were they to > make the attempt, and not realizing the U.S. is *not* protecting Israel, > it is protecting them *from* Israel's inevitable reaction in such a > situation. no. if we were protecting them from isreal these days, we'd have a "peacekeeping" force in palestine. we don't. the only "protecting from isreal's reaction" was our work in keeping the isreali's out of the first Gulf War. this was more to keep support of the Saudis and the various other Muslim countries. we have more of a military presence in korea than we do near or in isreal, anymore. hell, we don't even have isreal's permission to use their airspace to attack/invade iraq. > If it comes down to "us or them", I have no doubt the U.S. *will* "solve > the problem"; perhaps by engineering an enthnicity specific class 5 > pneumo-virus, most likely targetting mitochondrial DNA, which is > inherited matrilineally, using information obtained from the human > genome project, to destroy its enemies utterly, down to the last living > cell, before letting them destroy the U.S.. Total War is serious > business. this is much to dangerous. even the germans wouldn't use gas warfare against Alied forces during the invasion of normandy due to the extreme risk for their own forces. claiming they weren't of the Total War mindset is really fairly foolish. while i don't doubt that the US will happily go about killing many enemies, i do seriously doubt they'll be that genocidal. we aren't, after all, monsters. > All I can say is God help the terrorists, if they ever succeed in > becoming a credible threat to the continued existance of the U.S., > because the U.S. believes in Total War. no, god help all of us if the US ever thrashes around that blindly. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends." -- Tom Waits To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 2: 0:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4452137B410; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F289043F79; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:00:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 43DF6536F; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:00:46 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Alexandr Kovalenko Cc: Robert Watson , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:00:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> (Alexandr Kovalenko's message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:25:31 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexandr Kovalenko writes: > I really don't care how and how much were hurt feeling of any FreeBSD > developer by any offending actions of Matt, but I do care what he did > and (hopefully) will do for FreeBSD project. In areas were most of you > are not interested even if we (users) interested, Matt helped a lot. > I repeat: I don't care for your personal feelings, I do care for what > Matt really did. Oh, my. Will you take a minute to re-read and carefully think over what you just wrote? I refuse to believe that you actually *meant* that. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 2: 6:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970FE37B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7120743FA7; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:06:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14A6nWK081250; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:06:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h14A6n42081249; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:06:49 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:06:49 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Robert Watson , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204100649.GC36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Dag-Erling Smorgrav! On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:00:45AM +0100, you wrote: > > I really don't care how and how much were hurt feeling of any FreeBSD > > developer by any offending actions of Matt, but I do care what he did > > and (hopefully) will do for FreeBSD project. In areas were most of you > > are not interested even if we (users) interested, Matt helped a lot. > > I repeat: I don't care for your personal feelings, I do care for what > > Matt really did. > > Oh, my. > > Will you take a minute to re-read and carefully think over what you > just wrote? I refuse to believe that you actually *meant* that. Ok, I was a little bit rough (hasrsh?)... I just want to say that even if Matt offended somebody, he has great skills in hacking and we should not loose such talented people only because of some personal abuse. There should be other ways to fix this problem. P.S. I'm sorry if my posting somehow offended anyone. -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 2:17: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE4637B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [212.33.142.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EBC43FC2 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shamz@atreides.freenix.no) Received: from atreides.freenix.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14AGmhf078422 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:16:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from shamz@atreides.freenix.no) Received: (from shamz@localhost) by atreides.freenix.no (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h14AFROo078387 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:15:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:15:27 +0100 From: Shaun Jurrens To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE-p1 X-Philosophy: If you can read this, you're too close. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi guys, I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down everyone's throat. The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past. Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically). If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about). You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. -- Yours truly, Shaun D. Jurrens shaun@shamz.net shamz@freenix.no IRCNET nick: shamz #chillout #unix #FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 2:35: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002C937B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B68743F75 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 77F92536F; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:35:04 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Shaun Jurrens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:35:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> (Shaun Jurrens's message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:15:27 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Shaun Jurrens writes: > [long rant] This is all so wrong I don't even know where to begin refuting your statements. For someone who claims to have been "an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years", you have a remarkably weak grasp of the realities of the FreeBSD project. And for the record, the statistics were mine, not Greg's, and I am not a member of the core team. Nor do I wish to become one - I could never put up with all the shit they get flung at them. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 2:38:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0F037B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADC343F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 2808F536E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:38:49 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Good PR From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:38:49 +0100 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org These stats are good news for *BSDers: The only thing that worries me is that with an uptime that long, they must be running a FreeBSD version with known security holes... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 3: 8:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF5637B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826A43F9B for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14B86Fu025552; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:08:06 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost) by happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h14B81nm025551; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:08:01 GMT Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:08:01 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good PR Message-ID: <20030204110801.GA25299@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.44 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:38:49AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > These stats are good news for *BSDers: > > > > The only thing that worries me is that with an uptime that long, they > must be running a FreeBSD version with known security holes... Especially as the uptime counter that Netcraft detects loops back to zero after 497 days for HP-UX, Solaris, Linux and recent versions of FreeBSD. http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html#whichos And that there are a whole slew of operating systems for which Netcraft can't detect the uptime at all. Besides, as you say, keeping a server running continuously for that length of time probably indicates that a great deal of essential maintenance has been neglected. It's a nice looking page, from the point of view of PR, but don't try and use it to impress anyone with a modicum of technical nous. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 3:33: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348D737B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB7643F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:33:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14BWvca080719; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:32:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14BWvBD080716; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:32:57 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:32:57 +0100 (CET) From: Magnus B{ckstr|m To: Shaun Jurrens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Shaun Jurrens wrote: > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: dillon@'s commit bit: I object > > Hi guys, > <78 lines of opinionated spam deleted> > [Conjecture] [Conjecture] A) Matt Dillon is one very talented developer. He has a brain [Conjecture] and can wring good design and code out of it. [Conjecture] [Conjecture] B) FreeBSD, as any voluntary collaborative project, needs its [Conjecture] developers to communicate well. Put another way the [Conjecture] developers all need to support a common inter-developer [Conjecture] interface that works. [Conjecture] [Conjecture] C) Matt Dillon has excellent communication skills and is enough [Conjecture] of a diplomat to work his way around disagreements in order [Conjecture] to get things done. The implementation of the FreeBSD [Conjecture] inter-developer interface in his mind is very solid. [Conjecture] [Conjecture] D) Matt Dillon is my hero, and for purely emotional reasons [Conjecture] would hate to see him gone from the FreeBSD project. [Conjecture] How does this stand? A) There is ample evidence supporting this. B) There is ample evidence supporting this. C) Statements of several developers working closely with him contradict this. D) I don't know the man. Do you? > PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, > but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. The pathetic hobby of emotional political lobbyism doesn't offend me, its existence just pisses me off. It provokes similar activity in people whose energy would be better spent elsewhere, and it harms innocent bystanders. Let -core have its way. If the decision was bad the electing community will see that -core is fixed. The correct way to complain is to become part of that electing community. Contribute. Impress. Get a commit bit. Vote. If you don't have the time or energy or civilty to be embraced by the community, tough. Open-source projects are contributorocracies, elitocracies, oligarchies, technocracies -- anything but pure democracies. ... Fortunately. returning to better ways of spending energy, Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 3:37: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDA837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0953543F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0030.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.30] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18g1Nc-0000LM-00; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 03:36:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3FA575.92A5B49@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 03:35:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) References: <20030204005427.Q63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43f4ebaf5673d86f9e174c0052f2fddf5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > uh. no. > > the US hasn't chosen to "live with terrorism." > > not any more than the Germans did in the 70s, or for that matter, how they > did in the 40s, after taking over most of France. Respectfully, the Germans really don't have the option of carpet bombing the country their terrorists come from out of existance, if they decide that world opinion doesn't matter to them. If they had been willing to kill everyone (scortched earth), they could have avoided the problems in occupied France, as well (though it would have made another country harder to invade, what with any country the came into after that fighting for their lives, rather than just to maintain their government). > Terrorism is not a standup war. anyone who's lived with it at any point in > their lives knows this. You can't drop bombs on terrorists. You handle > them the same way you deal with any other extremist group: you arrest > them, or you kill them. > > many european countries learned this lesson years and years ago, and have > kept special anti-terrorist police forces since then. You *can* bomb terrorists, if you are willing to accept sufficient collateral damage. It all depends on the level you set for what's an acceptable amount of collateral damage. > > Some people in the world don't seem to understand the concept > > of "Total War". Israel does, and the incompletely occupied > > nations that fought the Axis in World War II do, and most > > certainly the former Soviet Republics do. Others do as well, > > but those are the ones which are certain. > > "Total War" works only when all other options have been exausted. > Inevitably, it leads to escalation. There is no escalation, if the other side no longer exists. > we don't use nukes in "this war" because they'd be inneffective. while we > can be the 800lb gorilla for a while, we have other sub-super-powers to > respect (china, for example), and we have to tip toe around them, like it > or not. we're not the only 800lb gorilla annymore. we're just one, and > there are a couple 600lb ones hanging out, watching what we'll do. We didn't use nuclear weapons in the gulf war because we wanted to test out our gadgets, under battlefield conditions. There was always the option of using them, if things "got out of hand", and Iraq had started using the same chemical weapons they used on their own minority populations on allied troops. This is well known from histories of the Gulf War. The option was called "silver bullet", and consisted of multiple aircraft, two of whose engines were running at all times. If we hadn't wanted to play with the new toys, it's possible that we could have pressured the Russians at the time, who needed U.S. support to maintain internal stability, and who were trying to change their "bad guy" image, after realizing that capitalism in theory isn't the same thing as capitalism in practice, into a joint nuclear strike. No one else would have blinked, because no one else had the long range missles to blink with. There would have been a lot of bad press over Baghdad, for a while, but "the Saddam problem" would have been resolved, once and for all. More likely, we would have used fuel-air explosives. They have the benefit of being in the same tonnages as small nuclear weapons, without the nasty stigma of radioactivity, or the political problems from people who are or think they are down wind. We dropped so much tonnage on Dresden in WWII trying to destroy German industrial capacity that the destruction was much worse than Hiroshima, but we keep appologizing for Hiroshima, and not for Dresden. > no. if we were protecting them from isreal these days, we'd have a > "peacekeeping" force in palestine. we don't. the only "protecting from > isreal's reaction" was our work in keeping the isreali's out of the first > Gulf War. this was more to keep support of the Saudis and the various > other Muslim countries. First of all, Palestine is not a recognized nation. Second of all, even if it were, it's a government in exile, more than something you can put borders around. Third, the land claimed by Palestinians was lost to Israel in a war. You might as well ask that the U.S. give the Eastern seaboard of North America back to England, or part of China back to Tibet, etc.. Any piece of land can be claimed to have been owned by someone's ancestors, usually multiple someone's. It's all about how long you are willing to hold a grudge. > we have more of a military presence in korea than we do near or in isreal, > anymore. hell, we don't even have isreal's permission to use their > airspace to attack/invade iraq. They want to be a non-combattant nation, as in the Gulf War. Otherwise, they are a nearby target. You will not see any states that are within Scud-range backing the U.S. in this one, if it comes to combat. One of the interesting facts is that the U.S. was not permitted by any of it's allies to launch a first strike from their air space, nor by the U.N. to launch from international waters. The first cruise missles that were launched in the last Gulf War came from a B52 Bomber launched in Loiusiana and refueled twice over the ocean on it's way to Iraq. The bomber is now an exhibit at the Pima County Air Museum, in Pima County, just outside of Tucson, AZ. > > If it comes down to "us or them", I have no doubt the U.S. *will* "solve > > the problem"; perhaps by engineering an enthnicity specific class 5 > > pneumo-virus, most likely targetting mitochondrial DNA, which is > > inherited matrilineally, using information obtained from the human > > genome project, to destroy its enemies utterly, down to the last living > > cell, before letting them destroy the U.S.. Total War is serious > > business. > > this is much to dangerous. even the germans wouldn't use gas warfare > against Alied forces during the invasion of normandy due to the extreme > risk for their own forces. claiming they weren't of the Total War mindset > is really fairly foolish. > > while i don't doubt that the US will happily go about killing many > enemies, i do seriously doubt they'll be that genocidal. we aren't, after > all, monsters. I guess you could aerosolize it, but it's not gas warfare. It's biological warfare. And if the U.S. were to get to the point it felt it needed to do this, it would be an act of self-defense, to preserve the nation. It's just one example of a possible "Manhattan Project" type weapon. There are others that are "less horrible". For example, instead of killing, it could merely sterilize. If you want to consider others, that don't involve killing or mass sterilization, there are other potential weapons which, in the same life-or-death-of-the-nation situation as WWII was considered to be, are probably the same 3-4 years out as the original atomic bomb. For example, molecular nanotechnology based weaponry could target people with specific thoughts. If we were in a time crunch, we could debilitate them without killing them. It's even possible to do something reversible. Or we could simply rewrite the neurons of all terrorists, and they will become red cross workers, instead. No one dies, and it's an arguable benefit to humanity (this is the one that terrifies me). > > All I can say is God help the terrorists, if they ever succeed in > > becoming a credible threat to the continued existance of the U.S., > > because the U.S. believes in Total War. > > no, god help all of us if the US ever thrashes around that blindly. God help all of us, if terrorists ever force the U.S. to "thrash around that blindly". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 3:59:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D11837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576B643FC7 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 03:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14BvdP8033938; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:57:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E3FAB05.9070808@401.cx> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:59:01 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good PR References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > These stats are good news for *BSDers: > > > > The only thing that worries me is that with an uptime that long, they > must be running a FreeBSD version with known security holes... > > DES AFAIK, they are all webservers. A webserver protected by a firewall and not running any services besides httpd does not necessarily need to be patched for other exploits then those affecting httpd. Im not saying its the right way to run a server, but in theory a server running only httpd can safely ignore bugs in sshd, bind, sendmail or whatever. Patching httpd does usually not require a reboot so a fully patched httpd can still run on a system with very long uptime. To avoid flames, let me assure you that none of my servers have more then ~50 days uptime since I frequently patch and even reinstall them. -- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 4: 8:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0660C37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457EE43F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 86C3E5371; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:08:10 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good PR From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:08:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3E3FAB05.9070808@401.cx> ("Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg"'s message of "Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:59:01 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <3E3FAB05.9070808@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" writes: > To avoid flames, let me assure you that none of my servers have more > then ~50 days uptime since I frequently patch and even reinstall them. Your users must hate you ;) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 4:14:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C92E37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5475B43E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 3B53F536F; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:14:47 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Terry Lambert Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:14:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3E3FA575.92A5B49@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Tue, 04 Feb 2003 03:35:17 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030204005427.Q63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3E3FA575.92A5B49@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > More likely, we would have used fuel-air explosives. They have > the benefit of being in the same tonnages as small nuclear > weapons, without the nasty stigma of radioactivity, or the > political problems from people who are or think they are down > wind. We dropped so much tonnage on Dresden in WWII trying to > destroy German industrial capacity that the destruction was much > worse than Hiroshima, but we keep appologizing for Hiroshima, > and not for Dresden. s/German industrial capacity/a single lousy vitamin factory/ AFAIK DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 4:25:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9D837B408 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:25:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [212.33.142.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EB043F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shamz@atreides.freenix.no) Received: from atreides.freenix.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14CPIhf080290; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:25:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from shamz@atreides.freenix.no) Received: (from shamz@localhost) by atreides.freenix.no (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h14CNw1Z080268; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:23:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:23:58 +0100 From: Shaun Jurrens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Shaun Jurrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204122358.GK5093@atreides.freenix.no> References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE-p1 X-Philosophy: If you can read this, you're too close. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:35:04AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: #> Shaun Jurrens writes: #> > [long rant] #> #> This is all so wrong I don't even know where to begin refuting your #> statements. For someone who claims to have been "an avid follower of #> the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years", you have a remarkably #> weak grasp of the realities of the FreeBSD project. I'm always a little skeptical of people who claim to have a monopoly on reality. I'm not even surprised that you were the first to respond, given your avid attendance in -chat. #> #> And for the record, the statistics were mine, not Greg's, and I am not #> a member of the core team. Nor do I wish to become one - I could #> never put up with all the shit they get flung at them. You'll have to show me where I ever maintained you were a member of core. I pointed to the mail submitted by Greg (for whom you simply added a pathetic statistical attempt to correlate) <20030203232837.GE70413@wantadilla.lemis.com> Yeah, I've seen how you rant in the lists as well. It has gotten better, however, I must say. I'd vote for Terry for core, if he could limit the number of simultaneous thoughts in his head down to the average fbsd developer. #> #> DES #> -- #> Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org -- Yours truly, Shaun D. Jurrens shaun@shamz.net shamz@freenix.no Blomsterkroken 44B 1344 Haslum Norway Tel. Mobil: +47 9268 0049 IRCNET nick: shamz #chillout #unix #FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 4:31: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DE037B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1C843E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h14CU8s29688; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:30:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:30:08 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Don't feed the troll Message-ID: <20030204233008.H263@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hasn't anyone noticed the similarity between terrorists and trolls? Whilever you remain unaware of their tactics you are bound to react in a manner which does their work for them, lowering yourself to their standards and way beyond, while limp-wristedly pointing to their evil as an excuse for your own. Didn't anyone go to Sunday School? And then you wonder why terrorists seem to get the upper hand. It's because those whose righteous indignation is loudest are the ones who are assisting them. Without assistance, without others to become enraged enough to perpetuate their violence in multiple worse ways, terrorists and trolls are nothing. Without self-motivated participants, ::poof!:: they're gone. Yes indeed, this email is a troll. Can you handle it? Go on, you know exactly what to do, or not do. Hard, isn't it? Very hard. Until you are man or woman enough to handle a troll, to understand what must (not) be done, and to make it so, please don't blame the USA for being as gullible as you. -- Regards, -*Sue*- Hint: google for the subject line To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 4:39: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D68A37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613CD43E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:38:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 30B36AF5C5; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:38:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:37:59 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Shaun Jurrens Cc: des@ofug.org, shaun@shamz.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-Id: <20030204133759.0729547e.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20030204122358.GK5093@atreides.freenix.no> References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> <20030204122358.GK5093@atreides.freenix.no> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --N8F,15s.2zsan=.9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:23:58 +0100 Shaun Jurrens wrote: Hello, > I'm always a little skeptical of people who claim to have a > monopoly on reality. I'm not even surprised that you were the > first to respond, given your avid attendance in -chat. Shaun, altough I agree with you to a certain extent, keep in mind that des@ is a committer, and has been for a long time, so he probably has far more insight of what has happened. I'm not happy with the situation either, but I understand that it's not something that has happened in the last few days. I saw this coming for a long time. Matt is one of the most talented persons I've ever seen. [Un]fortunately, that's not enough when one works in a project. I learned the hard way how difficult it is to work with other people. Don't underestimate that. About the lack of openness in this matter, I'm not happy with it, but I respect core@ decision, and, since Matt himself has been quiet, I assume he wants it that way too. I hope Matt keeps contributing to the project. Most people don't understand how hard it is to be a core member. I think Jordan talked about it once. Try to look at the whole picture. I love FreeBSD and will love it for my whole life, don't let one decision of core@ influence your choice of an operating system. /me goes back to fix bugs in sysutils/thefish Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --N8F,15s.2zsan=.9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+P7QrnLctrNyFFPERAm1tAJ9db0MKxiQVnqt4PEVgarYWPEn22ACfXj5e bFqrJGmfeQAflZodNBEAvnU= =RjeD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --N8F,15s.2zsan=.9-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 4:53: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4D537B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8ACA43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with SMTP id h14CqwP4017649; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:52:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:52:58 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Alexandr Kovalenko Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030204100649.GC36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > I just want to say that even if Matt offended somebody, he has great > skills in hacking and we should not loose such talented people only > because of some personal abuse. Funny, that's precisely the problem we were addressing. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 7:15: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1FE37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63C643F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:15:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12d.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.77] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18g4mu-0001Z3-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:15:04 -0800 Received: (qmail 85878 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Feb 2003 15:14:58 -0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:14:58 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Shaun Jurrens , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Project status (was Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Message-ID: <20030204151457.GA85804@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Shaun Jurrens , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > [long rant from Shaun Jurrens] > This is all so wrong I don't even know where to begin refuting your > statements. Wrong or not, many of his statements seem to ring familiar. I've heard it before from lurking on the lists -- some people (not all newbies) have misgivings on where the project is headed. I think it would help if ordinary people like us understood what some of the new-fangled features are really about. It's clear that some very senior developers don't fully understand, or have doubts about, Geom and KSE(*) (to take two examples). The "status reports" describe them a bit, but not in nearly enough detail, I feel. Some time Matt wrote a very detailed and educational article in daemonnews about the VM, where even I felt I could understand what was going on (an illusion, no doubt). Interestingly, that article seems to have grown out of a mail he wrote to the linux guys: http://mail.nl.linux.org/linux-mm/2000-05/msg00419.html That mail is really worth reading too. That is why I have so much difficulty in believing that he is such a disagreeable person "behind the scenes". Anyway, I hope he'll still be present on the lists. For the other issues raised by Shaun, it may be all totally wrong, but it would be nice if someone knowledgeable sat down and wrote a status document (aimed at non-experts) on all the new stuff, perhaps for daemonnews. Shaun's mail could even be a good starting point. -- Rahul (*)After writing that, I had another look at the project web pages cited in the status report, http://www.freebsd.org/kse/ and http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/Geom/ . It's not actually so uninformative as I thought, but it's still worth filling them out, especially Geom. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 8:46:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DEAF37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B6143F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13856; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:46:24 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204094350.027e9e00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:46:20 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Shaun Jurrens From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:35 AM 2/4/2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >....I am not >a member of the core team. Nor do I wish to become one - I could >never put up with all the shit they get flung at them. Could this be part of the problem: That the current organizational structure is such that some people who should be on -core do not wind up there, while others who should not be there do? Running -core as a closed, secret cabal certainly does not help. More open governance would be a vast improvement. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 8:55:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4314D37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8350A43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14044; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:55:23 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204095218.02748660@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:55:19 -0700 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030204151435.46567.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030203225811.0360eb10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:14 AM 2/4/2003, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >To all honesty you cannot blame this core team from >things that happened with another very different core >team. Perhaps the system of governance is flawed. We have certainly seen recently that it is easy for such systems to go wrong -- witness Enron, Worldcom, the United States, etc. >I think you've not seen enough, I've participated in quite a few organizations in my time, and have an acute sense of when things are going wrong. Many of the signs are there. >and you are not really a developer. I certainly am -- though not, except for the occasional contribution, of FreeBSD. One of the reasons I do not hack on FreeBSD more is due to the nastiness of the politics. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 8:57:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F8A37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D004443F75 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18g6Nc-0008Bv-00; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:57:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:57:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good PR In-Reply-To: <20030204110801.GA25299@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Matthew Seaman wrote: > Especially as the uptime counter that Netcraft detects loops back to > zero after 497 days for HP-UX, Solaris, Linux and recent > versions of FreeBSD. > > http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html#whichos It doesn't really explain why. Anyways, with old Linux kernels (and maybe recent), there is a jiffy counter that resets/rolls-over/overflows after 497 days. I was told about it a week early and one of my 2.0.34? systems crashed on the 497th day. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 8:58:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D1F37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA32743E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h14Gw3dK005293 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:58:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14Gw1NG005286 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:58:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E3FF10F.8000008@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:57:51 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) References: <20030204051447.20954.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Contrary to what average americans tend to think, the > International community: > > 1) Doesn't consider George Bush the "leader of the > free world". > 2) Doesn't understand the concept of preemptive war. > 3) Is aware that invading Irak will not make the world > more secure. > 4) doesn't agree that the US economy is more important > than the Kyoto convention. > 5) Doesn't appreciate US militaries being above the > international court of law. > 6) Doesn't consider it cool for the US to unilateraly > break the long-range missiles treaty. > 7) Doesn't understand the passiveness of treatment of > Israel's violations to international law. I'm so sick of the "international community" that you speak of thinking that all americans believe the president is always right, and that we are all followers of the presidents every belief and desire. I'm also sick of other nations complaining about the US going to war (not saying that I agree or disagree with it) when they are usually the same nations who are so passive they wouldn't stand up and help. I'm so sick of everyone in the world blaming *everything* on the US. The mid-east tensions are not caused from Americans and their McDonalds. I'm so sick of everyone applauding when something bad happens to the US. Most American people still feel the pains of other nations that are going through centuries of wars, famine, etc, etc, even when those same nations continually hate us. Everyone loves to hate US. If you don't like the US, don't use any of our goods, our technology, our schools, or anything we've invented. I'm just so tired of seeing my hard earned tax dollars go to thankless nations that hate the very people that pay for so many things that they take for granted. Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 9:14:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8B537B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf1.us.outblaze.com (205-158-62-139.outblaze.com [205.158.62.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 427E443F9B for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdaemon@mail.com) Received: (qmail 15346 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2003 17:13:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (205.158.62.68) by spf1.us.outblaze.com with QMQP; 4 Feb 2003 17:13:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 58265 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2003 17:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.59) by 205-158-62-153.outblaze.com with SMTP; 4 Feb 2003 17:13:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 18158 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Feb 2003 17:13:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20030204171351.18157.qmail@mail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.94.160.46] by ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com with http for bsdaemon@mail.com; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:13:51 -0800 From: bsdaemon@mail.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:13:51 -0800 Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) X-Originating-Ip: 130.94.160.46 X-Originating-Server: ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I love that "my hard earned tax dollars" bit.  So rich!  Like you have any say in whether you pay those tax dollars, or where they go, for that matter.  Please, people, let's talk about B-S-D, let's talk about you-and-me.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Anderson Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:57:51 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) > Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Contrary to what average americans tend to think, the > > International community: > > > > 1) Doesn't consider George Bush the "leader of the > > free world". > > 2) Doesn't understand the concept of preemptive war. > > 3) Is aware that invading Irak will not make the world > > more secure. > > 4) doesn't agree that the US economy is more important > > than the Kyoto convention. > > 5) Doesn't appreciate US militaries being above the > > international court of law. > > 6) Doesn't consider it cool for the US to unilateraly > > break the long-range missiles treaty. > > 7) Doesn't understand the passiveness of treatment of > > Israel's violations to international law. > > I'm so sick of the "international community" that you speak of thinking > that all americans believe the president is always right, and that we > are all followers of the presidents every belief and desire. > > I'm also sick of other nations complaining about the US going to war > (not saying that I agree or disagree with it) when they are usually the > same nations who are so passive they wouldn't stand up and help. > > I'm so sick of everyone in the world blaming *everything* on the US. > The mid-east tensions are not caused from Americans and their McDonalds. > > I'm so sick of everyone applauding when something bad happens to the US. > Most American people still feel the pains of other nations that are > going through centuries of wars, famine, etc, etc, even when those same > nations continually hate us. > > Everyone loves to hate US. If you don't like the US, don't use any of > our goods, our technology, our schools, or anything we've invented. > > I'm just so tired of seeing my hard earned tax dollars go to thankless > nations that hate the very people that pay for so many things that they > take for granted. > > Eric > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- bsdaemon freebsd: the power to serve >> http://www.freebsd.org bsdaemon@mail.com -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 9:32: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FDC37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDB843FAF for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 53E8B536E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:31:58 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Shaun Jurrens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Project status From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:31:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030204151457.GA85804@papagena.rockefeller.edu> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:14:58 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030204151457.GA85804@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > I think it would help if ordinary people like us understood what some > of the new-fangled features are really about. It's clear that some > very senior developers don't fully understand, or have doubts about, > Geom and KSE(*) (to take two examples). The "status reports" describe > them a bit, but not in nearly enough detail, I feel. Since you're asking, I'll try to briefly describe some of the new subsystems we're working on in -CURRENT (for appropriate values of "we") - DEVFS is both a framework for creating devices (and allocating major / minor numbers for them etc) and a file system which exposes device nodes for these devices and allows standard operations such as removing a node, creating a symlink to a node, etc. DEVFS also has a mechanism for specifying the ownership and mode of as-yet nonexistent devices, to make up for the fact that it doesn't remember chown / chmod operations across reboots. Although a very small, very vocal minority is violently opposed to DEVFS, everybody else seems to agree it's a lifesaver, especially people who use hot-plug devices a lot (pccard and USB devices) - devd is a daemon that uses features of DEVFS to detect the creation or destruction of devices and apply various operations to these devices (e.g. automatically run dhclient when you insert a NIC into a pccard slot). I believe it's mostly there to replace pccardd, which NEWCARD obsoleted. - GEOM is a framework for applying various transformations to disk devices, and exporting the transformed devices as new devices. The heart of GEOM is a method for "tasting" devices to discover what transformations are applicable and then applying them by creating instances of one or more GEOM class to the device. This process is recursive, so a geom (an instance of a GEOM class) can attach to another geom, etc. GEOM turns what used to be an ugly ad-hoc jumble of code into a neat stack or graph of geoms which operate upon one another and export device nodes to userland. For instance, on a typical i386 system, each disk is "tasted" at boot time and found to contain a DOS partition table, which causes geoms to be instantiated for each slice (FreeBSD-speak for partition); then each slice is "tasted" again, giving rise to other geoms depending on their contents. GEOM is also exceptionally well documented, both inside and outside the CVS tree. - KSE ("kernel scheduled entities") is a threading architecture, both for in-kernel threads and for mapping userland threads onto kernel threads (which allows splitting one application across multiple CPUs; our current thread library doesn't). I don't know of any substantial opposition against KSE. There are some concerns that the M-on-N model is not really better than the 1-on-1 model, especially now that Solaris has switched to the latter, and that KSE is over-engineered and possibly out of the reach of a team of (relatively) amateur volunteers. Otherwise, complaints regarding KSE are mostly about how much time it's taking to implement, and concerns that the KSE developers aren't subjecting their code to sufficient testing before committing it. Note that I'm neither confirming or refuting any of these claims, just reporting what other people are saying about KSE. Any more subsystems you're curious about? > Some time Matt wrote a very detailed and educational article in > daemonnews about the VM, where even I felt I could understand what was > going on (an illusion, no doubt). Other people write articles too. They even get them refereed and present them at international conferences: USENIX, FREENIX, BSDCon, BSDCon Europe, NORDU etc. There are also proceedings from various developer summits, e.g. Audio recordings of some of these meetings are also available; the 2002 summit is at > (*)After writing that, I had another look at the project web pages > cited in the status report, http://www.freebsd.org/kse/ and > http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/Geom/ . It's not actually so > uninformative as I thought, but it's still worth filling them out, > especially Geom. Poul-Henning has written several papers about Geom; unfortunately, they're not linked from the Geom page, but you should be able to find them with Google. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 9:52:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0225937B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5240043F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003020417521100200i5mnme>; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:52:11 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h14HpC5F097089; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:51:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h14Hp6Vl097086; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Matthew Seaman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good PR References: <20030204110801.GA25299@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Feb 2003 09:51:05 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030204110801.GA25299@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Seaman writes: > It's a nice looking page, from the point of view of PR, but don't try > and use it to impress anyone with a modicum of technical nous. Doesn't that depend on what they're trying to impress someone about? Long FreeBSD uptimes should give a good impression about FreeBSD and a bad impression about FreeBSD system administrators. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 9:52:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5A937B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C1543F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003020417523105200dspq6e>; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:52:31 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h149L35F090622; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h149KwAr090619; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: La Temperanza Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR database suggestion References: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Feb 2003 01:20:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org La Temperanza writes: > Perhaps there should be a sorting index on the FreeBSD PR database to > gauge interest in PRs. This could be calculated by number of page > requests, or if you think it's more objective you can have viewers > specifically register their interest. Or, more simply, have "importance" assigned by the committer who first reviews the PR. What I'd like to see is a category something like "suspended" but which would be advertised as being for PRs that are a good idea, but which some committer thinks is unlikely to get fixed in the next year or so. These PRs would not be reported as "open". I suspect that many valid PRs are being closed and totally forgotten because somebody just wants to reduce the number of open PRs and feels that the PR is unlikely to get worked so might as well be closed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 9:56:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C27937B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F69243F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14Hucca081834; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:56:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14HucTc081831; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:56:38 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:56:38 +0100 (CET) From: Magnus B{ckstr|m To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204094350.027e9e00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object > > At 03:35 AM 2/4/2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > >....I am not > >a member of the core team. Nor do I wish to become one - I could > >never put up with all the shit they get flung at them. > > Could this be part of the problem: That the current organizational > structure is such that some people who should be on -core do not > wind up there, while others who should not be there do? > > Running -core as a closed, secret cabal certainly does not help. > More open governance would be a vast improvement. I would consider a more open governance to be harmful. Things would get bogged down in discussions fed by the opinions of the whole populace (review current thread) whereas what is needed is indeed a closed group, appointed by those most involved, on whatever merits those most involved see fit, for whatever directing purpose they see fit. With "human nature" in the equation, that is the only efficient way to manage a sizable organisation. African tribe management (whole village meets until consensus is reached) may be great as a social event but is disastrous as a direction-finding device. "Those most involved" need to be developers; they are the only ones investing anything in the project (bylaws dictate what a monetary contribution buys you.) The rest of the universe's population gets FreeBSD for free, and can offer clever suggestions but never credibly dictate anything. Not a democracy, sorry -- ergo, not an open government. It's interesting to liken the FreeBSD project to a box: I'm outside of the box, but I've seen the box doing its obscure job for several years, and only occasionally has the box jumped a millimeter or some brief grinding sound has come out of it. Even better, now that I've observed the box a bit more closely for a few years (the output of the box is important to my employer, and personally I'm interested) I've gained a less foggy view of the structure among the humans (wow!) inside the box. What I see doesn't scare me, and some things are reassuring -- e g the unanimous (trusting greg's statement) decision in -core lately on a managerial matter that is -not- easy. .02 euros, Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10: 0:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D37237B406 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rhadamanth.submonkey.net (pc2-cdif2-5-cust247.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.151.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3AE43F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:00:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.12) id 18g7Mj-00054Q-00; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:00:13 +0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:00:13 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: La Temperanza , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR database suggestion Message-ID: <20030204180013.GB19305@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , "Gary W. Swearingen" , La Temperanza , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-message-flag: All your linuxconf-configured redhat are belong to us. X-message-flag-attribution: suresh, sdm. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:20:58AM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > What I'd like to see is a category something like "suspended" but which > would be advertised as being for PRs that are a good idea, but which > some committer thinks is unlikely to get fixed in the next year or so. That already exists. Ceri -- Fate awaits! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10:11:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE8A37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0C043F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14986; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:11:30 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:11:25 -0700 To: Magnus B{ckstr|m From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204094350.027e9e00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:56 AM 2/4/2003, Magnus B{ckstr|m wrote: >I would consider a more open governance to be harmful. Most (if not all) failures in governance are created or sustained by secrecy. >"Those most involved" need to be developers; they are the only ones >investing anything in the project Nonsense. System administrators, documentors, and users engaged in advocacy also have large investments and must be represented. The limitation of voting to those with "commit bits" creates an extreme bias toward those with their heads down and/or those with egos heavily invested in their code; it also increases the likelihood that "real world" factors will not be considered. It is one of the reasons why FreeBSD receives so little press and so little corporate support relative to Linux. Advocacy, a crucial part of any such project, is not valued. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10:18:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD95A37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792ED43FB8 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 67AD9536E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:18:19 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Ceri Davies Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , La Temperanza , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR database suggestion From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:18:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030204180013.GB19305@submonkey.net> (Ceri Davies's message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:00:13 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> <20030204180013.GB19305@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ceri Davies writes: > On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 01:20:58AM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > What I'd like to see is a category something like "suspended" but which > > would be advertised as being for PRs that are a good idea, but which > > some committer thinks is unlikely to get fixed in the next year or so. > That already exists. Yep, it's called "suspended". Nothing beats reading the docs: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/pr-guidelines/x54.html DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10:34:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EA537B407 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:34:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from spark-notes.com (spark-notes.com [212.190.116.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F2344140 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fakednews@spark-notes.com) Received: from spark-notes.com (localhost [212.190.116.226] (may be forged)) by spark-notes.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h14ISVPl010703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:32 GMT Received: (from fakednews@localhost) by spark-notes.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) id h14ISUoV010678; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:30 GMT Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:30 GMT Message-Id: <200302041828.h14ISUoV010678@spark-notes.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Microsoft security hole From: Reply-To: brett@lariat.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This just in from CNet: http://www.cnet.com/go/to?destUrl=http://news.com:443%40212%2E190%2E116%2E226/news.php?UfkSdlVS --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10:34:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D4737B4AA; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:34:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (nexus.xs4all.nl [213.84.207.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A5E43F93; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@nexus.ninth-circle.org) Received: by 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 26AF165A; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:20:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:20:05 +0100 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Dillon's commitbit revocal Message-ID: <20030204182005.GG43834@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organisation: Ninth Circle Enterprises User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why is it that a lot of people who seem to be against Matt Dillon's removal don't, apparently, seem to understand this simple manager point of view: ``Do I waste x amount of time every time person y does something, since I know it will piss off about 10-15 others of my team, which in turn costs me and the team way more time in noise to get things back to normal?'' Given 1 talented guy with lacking social skills and 10-15 who might be less talented but can at least work close(r) together, most people would choose the latter option. If you think the first is preferable, let me know which company you work for so I know never to apply there, the atmosphere must be terrible. However great a person's qualities on technical level, it is no excuse for lacking social skills, which are imperative in a distributed world-wide project where main communication is done through email and chat. Another funny thing, people have been bitching at core for years to have them take more action in the project. Now they do it, and it is not good either. Make up your mind. Also, Rahul et al., there has been numerous attempts to get Matt Dillon to play nice within the Project, this is just the result of an accumulation of the years, yes, we're talking years here, including meetings at conventions and whatnot. Give it a break, go and do something constructive, like learning the VM system so that you may replace the gaps which you think Dillon's absence would create. (Which is funny given we have a few other VM specialists in the team who are less controversial.) I applaud core for daring to undertake such a controversial issue and decide on an action, which based on prior experience hopefully works out. Just my EUR 0.02. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ Long lost, to where no pathway goes... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10:44:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CDA37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF2343F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:44:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 33286AF5C4 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:44:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:43:26 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft security hole Message-Id: <20030204194326.0909e1f2.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <200302041828.h14ISUoV010678@spark-notes.com> References: <200302041828.h14ISUoV010678@spark-notes.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=./,Jl(?ZQPD0f2B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:30 GMT Some troll wrote: > This just in from CNet: > http://www.cnet.com/go/to?destUrl=http://news.com:443%40212%2E190%2E116%2E226/news.php?UfkSdlVS > This wasn't even funny. Brett I suggest you start pgp-signing your e-mail. Looks like someone has nothing better to do than forging e-mails. This was sent through an open relay in Belgium. Received: from spark-notes.com (spark-notes.com [212.190.116.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F2344140 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fakednews@spark-notes.com) Received: from spark-notes.com (localhost [212.190.116.226] (may be forged)) by spark-notes.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h14ISVPl010703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:32 GMT Received: (from fakednews@localhost) by spark-notes.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) id h14ISUoV010678; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:30 GMT Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:30 GMT Message-Id: <200302041828.h14ISUoV010678@spark-notes.com> Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --=./,Jl(?ZQPD0f2B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QAnRnLctrNyFFPERAlluAKCcsxADOYE/C2qrbcsFi2fzLFqdPACfZFN4 J2BT5K23EcdsEVINW6/TySo= =69xy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=./,Jl(?ZQPD0f2B-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11: 0:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEAAD37B4B9 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CF344031 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5E38B5A61; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:52:19 -0400 (AST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:52:19 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good PR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030204145121.X63349@hub.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone figured out what broken in recent FreeBSD releases (am running 4.7-STABLE right now) such that Netcraft can't even detect the OS anymore, let alone uptimes? http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?host=jupiter.hub.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > These stats are good news for *BSDers: > > > > The only thing that worries me is that with an uptime that long, they > must be running a FreeBSD version with known security holes... > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11: 2:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A5C37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CF743F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:02:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h14J2lhn003455 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9SSWN00.N3H; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:02:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:02:41 -0500 Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Magnus B{ckstr|m , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Brett Glass From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> Message-Id: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've tried not to get drawn into this but.. On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 01:11 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:56 AM 2/4/2003, Magnus B{ckstr|m wrote: > >> I would consider a more open governance to be harmful. > > Most (if not all) failures in governance are created or > sustained by secrecy. > >> "Those most involved" need to be developers; they are the only ones >> investing anything in the project > > Nonsense. System administrators, documentors, and users engaged > I have to agree here. A broader representation of the total userbase might make for a more even representation. One that takes other factors into account. To be honest some of the logistics of the project have been sorely lacking. I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a committer? I have an investment in FreeBSD. I have written some articles, even had one printed in daemonnews' print mag. I maintain a number of systems, i try and help others with problems. Just a thought > in advocacy also have large investments and must be represented. > > The limitation of voting to those with "commit bits" creates an > extreme bias toward those with their heads down and/or those > with egos heavily invested in their code; it also increases the > likelihood that "real world" factors will not be considered. > It is one of the reasons why FreeBSD receives so little press > and so little corporate support relative to Linux. Advocacy, > a crucial part of any such project, is not valued. > > There is truth in this statement. Engineers and programmers are not always good marketers, advocates or planners. That should be taken into account. A project w/o all three things, engineering, planning and marketing will always be hindered... - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkAOWOeV8VtPCL3dEQJJHgCdFoCqT2igsdLZ4SyL/0lro9cWLg4An0fK 4IakVS/NPRdBubo9wrkqutHI =D2kg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11: 8:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D0937B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D7E43F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15679; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:08:07 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:08:02 -0700 To: Larry Sica From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Magnus B{ckstr|m , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:02 PM 2/4/2003, Larry Sica wrote: >I have to agree here. A broader representation of the total userbase >might make for a more even representation. One that takes other >factors into account. To be honest some of the logistics of the >project have been sorely lacking. > >I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that >mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of >articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd >systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a >committer? Exactly. Perhaps a better form of governance would include another (more open and democratic) stratum at the top, which in turn managed teams that did the coding, docs, advocacy, PR, system administration, etc.? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:11:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A558C37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D423F43E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:11:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h14Ipx504913; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:51:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:51:58 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Project status Message-ID: <20030204135158.D4487@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Since you're asking, I'll try to briefly describe some of the new > subsystems we're working on in -CURRENT (for appropriate values of > "we") Very interesting and useful, but I had something a bit more detailed in mind. Something like that could have been released with 5.0 and should probably be released with 5.1 (or whatever the first "general users" release is), to excite wider interest. Maybe this should really go on -advocacy and/or -doc. DEVFS -- I agree it's very elegant and useful. No argument there. > - devd is a daemon that uses features of DEVFS to detect the creation > or destruction of devices and apply various operations to these > devices (e.g. automatically run dhclient when you insert a NIC into > a pccard slot). I believe it's mostly there to replace pccardd, > which NEWCARD obsoleted. Actually NEWCARD hasn't (yet?) obsoleted much, only added support for new stuff. My hardware, and a lot of other existing hardware I believe, works only with OLDCARD. I don't know whether devd would work with oldcard -- I use pccardd still. GEOM - I like your description, but probably some unix-knowledgeable newcomers would like something more detailed. It sounds elegant. It hasn't been non-controversial (PHK alludes to the opposition in his "GEOM is being merged" mail, and at least one senior developer has made it known he isn't happy with it). As you suggest, maybe some of PHK's papers can be linked from the main pages (I didn't find much on google, 'Poul-Henning Kamp GEOM Paper' yields only 12 hits and the eurobsdcon link is broken). KSE - since it's a work in progress, and right now (I believe) of limited interest to end-users, I guess the level of detail you supply is fair enough. > Any more subsystems you're curious about? Since you ask, I was planning to learn about the PAM thing (I guess you're the right guy)... I never learned what its benefits are, and maybe I got biased by a broken linux machine which would let me log in without a password. The other major 5.0 feature I noticed was ACPI. Apparently a work in progress, so maybe not good to make loud noises about it. Any good documents on that, other than the manpages? I had problems with suspend (or rather, standby), so I switched back to APM but I'm willing to experiment. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:21:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8798737B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18BE43FB1 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:21:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h14JLEs05025; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:21:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:21:14 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Larry Sica Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030204142114.E4487@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica wrote: > I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that > mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of > articles, or am really helpful? If you're really helpful, you could get a commit bit with the -doc project, and a vote for the next core committee. To learn how, read http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2002/01/31/Big_Scary_Daemons.html (Disclaimer: I'm not speaking from personal experience -- I haven't contributed enough to -doc, and what little I have contributed needs updating. But then I'm not the one demanding commit bit or a vote for core. What few contributions I made were accepted readily; I'm sure that if I regularly filed high-quality PRs, people would give me a commit bit just to keep me quiet, as they did with Michael.) - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:22:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBC537B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2927843FC7 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.lonesome.com (cs2876-77.austin.rr.com [24.28.76.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084F81431D for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:51:14 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Mark Linimon Organization: Lonesome Dove Computing Services To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:53:41 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302041253.41042.linimon@lonesome.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204095218.02748660@localhost> [apologies if the In-Reply-To gets munged by KMail] On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:55:19 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > One of the reasons I do not hack on FreeBSD more is due to > the nastiness of the politics. I could understand this sentiment. But you'll have to understand that for someone on the sidelines, like me, it's hard to reconcile this with some of the things you've said over the past 24 hours in -chat. Specifically: > [in response to Greg] Written by perhaps the most elitist member > of -core. and > But there appears to have been a disturbing sea change in > -core, in which more Core Team members seem to be acting > out longstanding grudges. and > Very recently, a small group of -core members also attempted to=20 > invent reasons to remove me from all of the FreeBSD mailing lists=20 > due to personal vendettas. and > >This is the kind of attitude that generates forks. > > And knives. I think if you reread the above statements, you'd have to see why someone might think they were highly charged, or even political, statements. Yes, they are divorced of their immediate surrounding contexts, but even so, I don't see how it's so easy to reconcile the latter statements with the one at the top of this posting. Me? I have no opinion on the commit-bit fiasco except that it could/should have been handled better. I've been on both sides of the coin, asking someone to leave a volunteer project and being asked to leave, and I can't say I handled either with much grace myself. Nevertheless, you might consider my comments food for thought. Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:22:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7E937B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBE243FC1 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h14JMFhn010517 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9STT300.G5L for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:22:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:22:13 -0500 Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Larry Sica To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> Message-Id: X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 02:08 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:02 PM 2/4/2003, Larry Sica wrote: > >> I have to agree here. A broader representation of the total userbase >> might make for a more even representation. One that takes other >> factors into account. To be honest some of the logistics of the >> project have been sorely lacking. >> >> I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that >> mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of >> articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd >> systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a >> committer? > > Exactly. Perhaps a better form of governance would include another > (more open and democratic) stratum at the top, which in turn managed > teams that did the coding, docs, advocacy, PR, system administration, > etc.? > One thing i want to make clear though, the idea of core is something i would never advocate even thinking of abandoning. I just dont think that because i dont have a commit bit and am not a developer that i am less valuable. - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkAS6eeV8VtPCL3dEQImRACeIF9q1k4kahN++l/IhzAfxVrN7sEAoIR/ kzbdwkumB/pom1lR/yXs2rPp =gLTL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:36:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802C837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-85.apple.com [17.250.248.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBBA43FB1 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:36:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h14JabiU024558 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9SUH000.L5Y; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:36:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:36:39 -0500 Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030204142114.E4487@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 02:21 PM, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Larry Sica wrote: >> I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that >> mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of >> articles, or am really helpful? > > If you're really helpful, you could get a commit bit with the -doc > project, and a vote for the next core committee. To learn how, read > > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2002/01/31/Big_Scary_Daemons.html > > (Disclaimer: I'm not speaking from personal experience -- I haven't > contributed enough to -doc, and what little I have contributed needs > updating. But then I'm not the one demanding commit bit or a vote for > core. What few contributions I made were accepted readily; I'm sure > that if I regularly filed high-quality PRs, people would give me a > commit bit just to keep me quiet, as they did with Michael.) > Heh probably. I just took some offense with the idea that i am not invested in freebsd because i am not a developer. Without ppl like me, the users, there would be no freebsd to speak of. In the end it is all about the users i think. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:36:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498A837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448FD43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D777E536E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:36:44 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Project status From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 20:36:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030204135158.D4487@papagena.rockefeller.edu> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:51:58 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030204135158.D4487@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Since you ask, I was planning to learn about the PAM thing (I guess > you're the right guy)... I never learned what its benefits are, and > maybe I got biased by a broken linux machine which would let me log in > without a password. PAM is a framework for authentication and related functionality. It provides entry points for six common authentication-related operations and a configurable stacking system that allows the admin to decide how these operations are to be performed on a per-application basis. It's not new in 5.0, but I've rewritten the PAM library (4.x has Linux-PAM, which is horribly broken), added some modules, improved the ones we already had, integrated PAM into just about everything in the base system that cares about authentication, and removed most of the legacy (non-PAM) code. I've also written some documentation, which isn't entirely done yet: > The other major 5.0 feature I noticed was ACPI. Apparently a work in > progress, so maybe not good to make loud noises about it. Any good > documents on that, other than the manpages? I had problems with > suspend (or rather, standby), so I switched back to APM but I'm > willing to experiment. We're using Intel's own ACPI implementation, and it's getting updated regularly. I've had trouble with it in the past, but the latest incarnation works just fine, and does things APM never could. Unlike APM, which is implemented entirely within the BIOS, ACPI is implemented in the OS, and all the vendor provides is a high-level description of the hardware, its capabilities, and how to use it. This means that you can't improve APM on a system short of updating the BIOS (if the vendor acknowledges the problem and releases a bugfix), but you can improve ACPI and implement workarounds for quirky systems. The main problem with ACPI these days, I hear, is that most mobo vendors don't care if their ACPI stuff breaks the spec as long as Windows boots, while Intel's implementation is rather strict about some things (understandably, since it's their spec to begin with). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:43:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5450D37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0FE43FA3 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18g8yi-00006z-00; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:43:32 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:43:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > invested in freebsd because i am not a developer. Without ppl like > me, the users, there would be no freebsd to speak of. In the end it is > all about the users i think. With an open source project (even a large operating system), generally the (non-paid) developers do the work for their own needs (or interests). I'd assume that many of the committers would do the work even without the large user community. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:53:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988ED37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F616442C6 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:48:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14JlAja096583; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:47:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h14JlA8e096582; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:47:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h14JiSaX076743; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:44:28 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Larry Sica Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:22:13 EST." Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:44:28 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One thing i want to make clear though, the idea of core is something i > would never advocate even thinking of abandoning. I just dont think > that because i dont have a commit bit and am not a developer that i am > less valuable. Certainly, value is a perception. Folks who contribute are _very_ valuable, as it it our contribution-base that gives our most direct exposure to our user-base. Advocacy, bug reports, anything. Any time you help move the project forward, even by small steps, is appreciated more than you can imagine, and more than I can hope to know. It is such small steps that has given the project the credibility that it has, and it is thanks to folks who give a damn to maintain that status. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:55:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2AA37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF6B43F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:55:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16176; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:55:31 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204124956.028396c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:55:24 -0700 To: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:22 PM 2/4/2003, Larry Sica wrote: >One thing i want to make clear though, the idea of core is something i >would never advocate even thinking of > abandoning. I just dont think that because i dont have a commit bit >and am not a developer that i am less valuable. The IDEA of having a core group of developers is good. The current IMPLEMENTATION, however, with that group running the entire project undemocratically rather than being one of several arms of the project, is what seems to lead to problems such as this. In the instant controversy, there'd be a Board of Directors separate from -core which could call a halt to the bickering, insist upon disclosure of the issues, and insist upon a solution that is of maximum benefit to the whole community. FreeBSD isn't of, by, and for only the self-selecting group of people who happen to have commit bits. The governance of the project should reflect that. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:59:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87ED37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D410443F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from temperanza@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 5839 invoked by uid 417); 4 Feb 2003 19:59:55 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO jive.SoftHome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 4 Feb 2003 19:59:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 5811 invoked by uid 417); 4 Feb 2003 19:59:55 -0000 Received: from adsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO dsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (63.194.84.111) by 192.168.0.5 with SMTP; 4 Feb 2003 19:59:55 -0000 Received: from tomoyo (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:54 -0800 (PST)dsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h14Jxs8S021435; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from temperanza@softhome.net) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:54 -0800 From: La Temperanza To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PR database suggestion Message-Id: <20030204115954.1b162611.temperanza@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04 Feb 2003 01:20:58 -0800 swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) wrote: > Or, more simply, have "importance" assigned by the committer who first > reviews the PR. Well, the committers will probably have a better idea of importance then the submitters, but I'd prefer a cumulative system of some kind in that it 'reminds' database browsers of old PRs, which are a pet peeve of mine. :p To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 12:23:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9234F37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9417A43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:23:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <2003020420231305100hucfke>; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:23:13 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h14KMF5F098893; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h14KM9Zm098890; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:22:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Shaun Jurrens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Feb 2003 12:22:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> Message-ID: <0vlm0vg5jj.m0v@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Shaun Jurrens writes: > [...] I'd say most of you need thicker skin. [...] I was going stay out of this thread because of my 2-yr newbieness and because I'm still recovering from a recent experience involving the too-thin skins of both a core member and myself. But the above quote (with "most" replaced with "some") is an oft-recurring thought in my recent ruminations, so I'd like draw people's attention to it. The Project would be better off if people tried to take other's seeming offenses less seriously in general, and particularly when considering actions which are likely to send someone packing forever, like the withdrawal of priviledges or even the sending of a too-harsh flame. When one takes offense at something, I think it's fair, even good, to let them know what you don't like about it, but one should try hard to keep the temperature down. I'm sure most people try to, but still manage to fall short, too often because some people's skin is way too thin. (I find it off-putting and/or time-wasting to have to word replies on freebsd-* as carefully as seems necessary.) Which brings us full circle. The problem needs to be worked at both ends. Though this child's mantra isn't true, it's none-the-less a good mantra for both children and mailing list users: Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Core members are carrying sticks and stones here (and rightfully so, IMO) and they should be very careful that they don't use them too readily when they've let some words too-easily hurt them. (I'm starting to speculate now, but I suspect that core's authority to select among design choices should be all the power they need to exercise for the betterment of FreeBSD, in all cases but those of clear harassment and vandalism (e.g., refusals to honor that design authority during commitments of code).) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 12:43:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F07237B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57E743FAF for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with SMTP id h14KhfP4036468; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:43:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:43:41 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good PR In-Reply-To: <20030204145121.X63349@hub.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Has anyone figured out what broken in recent FreeBSD releases (am > running 4.7-STABLE right now) such that Netcraft can't even detect the > OS anymore, let alone uptimes? I'm not sure it's anything broken with FreeBSD; more likely, it's that the stack changed and the fingerprints haven't been updated. If I had to guess, it's the current flavor of syncookies/syncache. Not sure how you report new signatures to Netcraft -- nmap seems to do the right thing. Any time there are observable changes in a network stack, fingerprinting techniques are likely to get confused. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 12:58:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5939C37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13406.mail.yahoo.com (web13406.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 980F443F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030204205811.84340.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.17] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 21:58:11 CET Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:58:11 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3E3F6B9F.CFC27B05@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Terry Lambert ha scritto: > > [ ... list of disbeliefs about behaviour ... ] > > None of this is "dumb behaviour resulting from the > attack on the WTC". > Yes it is, the US failed to provide security for it's citizens and while they claim to be doing all this for their "wonderful nation", they are damaging the relationship with their environment. Some guy I met in Spain said "I am not happy about 9/11 but it serves them right". > So how, specifically, does this make the attack on > the WTC > "effective"? What is the "effect" it has had? > It has made a growing number of humans in the planet join a the club of people that hates americans. The objective of the terrorists were to: 1) Generate a "jihad" against the Americans that oppress their countries. 2) Show that America was (is?) vulnerable and make them fear. ... > But so far, the continued existance of the U.S. has > not been > credibly threatened. > I do think the values for which America once stood are lost. The freedom that the US once had was seriously hurt after Sept. 11. > Let me be blunt. > > Some people in the world don't seem to understand > the concept > of "Total War". Realistically speaking, no country declares "total war" to another. You are trying to explain rationally something that is not rational (war). By creating new terms to explain irrational behaviour you are just justifying Sept. 11: a "total war" would mean US citizens are targets, no matter if they are innocent or not. > > Let me also point out that we have had nearly 60 > years, in the > interim, to improve our technology. > And you have not achieved many results. Osama bin Laden and the Mullah Omar escaped. ... > > If it comes down to "us or them", I have no doubt > the U.S. > *will* "solve the problem"; perhaps by engineering > an enthnicity > specific class 5 pneumo-virus, most likely > targetting mitochondrial > DNA, which is inherited matrilineally, using > information obtained > from the human genome project, to destroy its > enemies utterly, down > to the last living cell, before letting them destroy > the U.S.. Sound like racism to me. Assuming you can distinguish between Europeans and Americans, would you accept collateral damage? .. let's say the many minorities that are composed of US citizens? ... > > All I can say is God help the terrorists, if they > ever succeed in > becoming a credible threat to the continued > existance of the > U.S., because the U.S. believes in Total War. > they are scared, no doubt! ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13: 0:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5674A37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CB143F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:00:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <2003020421004605100hs421e>; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:00:46 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h14Kxk5F099353; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h14KxeDB099348; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:59:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Ceri Davies , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR database suggestion References: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> <20030204180013.GB19305@submonkey.net> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Feb 2003 12:59:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > Yep, it's called "suspended". Nothing beats reading the docs: > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/pr-guidelines/x54.html Sorry. I had recently gone looking for a definition of "suspended" and didn't find one. And I've seen PRs closed when I though they should be just put on the back burner, so I had the impression that "suspended" was being used for some other purpose. I'm happy to see I'm wrong. I guess I need to spend some time reviewing /articles/ and the PR list. A link to your pr-guidelines ought to be added under http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#gnats where it can be more easily found. Links to it and "Writing FreeBSD Problem Reports" (which is buried in a paragraph but which I HAVE read) ought to be added to the little list there. Finally, the two documents should probably cross-reference each other. I'm not doing SGML patches currently, but if you ask, I'll put the above wishes in a PR. Thanks for your helpful reply. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13: 9:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF2137B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0D743F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:09:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0959F536E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:09:39 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: Ceri Davies , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR database suggestion From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:09:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: (swear@attbi.com's message of "04 Feb 2003 12:59:40 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030203232355.53d2e6b7.temperanza@softhome.net> <20030204180013.GB19305@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > Sorry. I had recently gone looking for a definition of "suspended" and > didn't find one. And I've seen PRs closed when I though they should be > just put on the back burner, so I had the impression that "suspended" > was being used for some other purpose. I'm happy to see I'm wrong. I > guess I need to spend some time reviewing /articles/ and the PR list. Apparently some committers need to read it too :) > A link to your pr-guidelines ought to be added under > http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#gnats > where it can be more easily found. Links to it and > "Writing FreeBSD Problem Reports" (which is buried in a paragraph > but which I HAVE read) ought to be added to the little list there. Please send these suggestions to www@, possibly with a Cc: to doc@. > Finally, the two documents should probably cross-reference each other. I'll do that. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:44:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0FF37B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8982143F85; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:44:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780078CA143; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:44:11 -0400 (AST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:44:11 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Robert Watson Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "" Subject: Re: Good PR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030204174344.W63349@hub.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > Has anyone figured out what broken in recent FreeBSD releases (am > > running 4.7-STABLE right now) such that Netcraft can't even detect the > > OS anymore, let alone uptimes? > > I'm not sure it's anything broken with FreeBSD; more likely, it's that the > stack changed and the fingerprints haven't been updated. If I had to > guess, it's the current flavor of syncookies/syncache. Not sure how you > report new signatures to Netcraft -- nmap seems to do the right thing. > Any time there are observable changes in a network stack, fingerprinting > techniques are likely to get confused. The thing that I find 'odd' is that Netcraft runs on FreeBSD, no? You'd think they would have noticed by now, eh? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 15:24:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6259A37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D156843F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14NOnca082704 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:24:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14NOmbK082701 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:24:49 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:24:48 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_B=E4ckstr=F6m?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:56 AM 2/4/2003, Magnus B{ckstr|m wrote: > > >I would consider a more open governance to be harmful. > > Most (if not all) failures in governance are created or > sustained by secrecy. Secrecy as such isn't much of a factor; what you say is true as far as it covers the ubiquitous case that a failing government (or management, which better names what we are discussing) implements secrecy to cover its failure. In the case where a -working- management (governance) uses it, the word more used is perhaps 'discretion'. > >"Those most involved" need to be developers; they are the only ones > >investing anything in the project > > Nonsense. System administrators, documentors, and users engaged > in advocacy also have large investments and must be represented. If they (we) have a large investment, it's their (our) own risk. Sure it's nice to be represented; but do it by the rules. My regret in the matter is that my organisation is difficult to press into contributing back anything of even a fraction of the value received. > The limitation of voting to those with "commit bits" creates an > extreme bias toward those with their heads down and/or those > with egos heavily invested in their code; it also increases the > likelihood that "real world" factors will not be considered. You're missing something here: "Value". I'm convinced that if I need some functionality, there is something as simple as a price tag attached to it. Whether I hire a consultant (who may concievably be one or more of the current committers) or get a project approved within my own organisation, it ends in a figure of money. I might also be able to argue a case before the developer community that the particular functionality would be terrifically valuable to the project we live for -- in which case the developers would be paying, with their own or someone else's time. Thus you are correct only as far as those "real world" factors are both important (e g to the long-term viability of the project) and not likely to be considered valuable by the developer community. > It is one of the reasons why FreeBSD receives so little press > and so little corporate support relative to Linux. Advocacy, > a crucial part of any such project, is not valued. I won't argue this, only offer a counterguess: Linux gets it because of "hype". (I won't offer a definition) Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 15:26:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A604437B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72C943F9B for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:26:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14NQFca082714 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:26:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14NQFmb082711 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:26:15 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:26:15 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_B=E4ckstr=F6m?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <200302041820.52497.paul@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tuesday 04 February 2003 5:56 pm, Magnus B{ckstr|m wrote: > > > I would consider a more open governance to be harmful. > > Let me guess, you're South American, right? :-) Nope. Swedish (to the extent absolutely necessary) > > Things would > > get bogged down in discussions fed by the opinions of the whole >... > OK, sorry for jumping in here (it's been a while since I last posted to -chat, > but I can't help myself on this one), surely there is a major difference > between "closed" and "focused". For example, we have many technical mailing > lists that concern themselves with specific areas of use or development. > -ports is for the discussion of ports. -small is for the discussion of > embedded system use. -config, suprisingly enough, is about config and > installation issues. Anybody in the world who has an interest in those areas > is free to subscribe to the list and contribute to the project if they so > wish. That's focused, on areas of technology. Following you so far. > > -core should be no different. If they want to talk in secret, fine they can > e-mail each other direct, but the only people who are going to be interested > in reading (never mind writing to) -core are those who have an interest in > general project management issues surrounding FBSD. Problem: Focused yes, on areas of technology -- nope. On a -core list would travel matters of management and policy as well. Decisions on the latter are ultimately made on principles, on the former decisions are made on mathematics (in the wide sense.) The "mathematics" arguments as a rule converge quickly, the "principle" arguments converge at all only if the argument is confined to a group of people who are familiar with eachothers' principles. This is why good management publishes decisions together with a statement about the principle applied -- it's much, much harder to question the principle finally applied than to attack a decision in the making by throwing in foreign principles. Our acquaintance Brett Glass is skilled at offering arguments that are plausible along some principle without disclosing which. The -core list would be a flypaper for Brett Glasses. >I'd be willing to bet > that the majority of commiters would not bother subbing to an open -core > list. Ultimately, the descisions taken by -core not only have an effect on > commiters, but to people who use FBSD at their place of work and at home. I > would love certain features to be fast tracked in, but I know that if core > says "nope, that guy can't be a commiter" they won't be - all I want is a bit > more of an explanation than "because we say so". We're entitled to that further explanation. [But -- aside -- not necessarily in the case of Matt Dillon. The issue with him is whether or not he has commit privileges, a matter exclusively for him and his fellow committers. Those who aren't committers ideally don't have the faintest idea of what problems or blessing are attached to being a fellow commiter with Matt Dillon, and those who do have a commit bit are (as I understand) fully informed. End of aside] > > African tribe > > management (whole village meets until consensus is reached) may be > > great as a social event but is disastrous as a direction-finding > > device. > > It seems to have worked quite nicely for African tribes for a few millenia. > Ahh, but they don't have PDAs and Nike trainers, so perhaps you're right - > they're obviously not as advanced as us, and always making the wrong > descisions. Yes, open low-cost democracy where everybody has a voice, quite > clearly doesn't work. Best off we elect some people who make descision on our > behalf in secret - a bit like the majority of UK and European parliamentary > proceedings. They always do a better job, don't they. I'm not racking down on or belittling African tribes or their culture; I should have said that the direction-finding device that suits them well doesn't suit the FreeBSD project very well. For an illustration, imagine every decision within the project being made by everyone involved -- including you and me -- gathering at a gargantuan BSDCon and not leaving the place until every decision has been made to everyone's satisfaction. What you get with more than a minimum of openness in policy discussions is a tasting of the illustrated chaos and very few benefits. It is better to appoint a group of people whose principles you generally agree with, and tell that group "make all the hard decisions, motivate them, we trust you until our eyebrows rise". The parliaments you name suffer from obfuscation, which is a real danger if the group you elect can hide personal agendas in management complexity. > > The rest of the universe's population gets > > FreeBSD for free, and can offer clever suggestions but never credibly > > dictate anything. Not a democracy, sorry -- ergo, not an open government. > > So, if you aren't a commiter, you don't add anything to FBSD? Even if I use > it, write software for it, install it on client sites, train people on it, > advocate it like god knows what, turn up to confs, encourage people to try it > until I'm blue in the face, help people (sometimes not very well) in > arranging user group meetings and confs, I have nothing to contribute to > FBSD? That, is a ridiculous argument, and one that makes the daemon-bashing > penguin-lovers of this world seem to have a good point. However, if that is > genuinely the way -core and many commiters feel about it, I'll be happy to > unsub from everything at majordomo@freebsd.org and go and find another OS to > play with. You have a partly valid argument, but the lists you consider unsubscribing from is your very defacto instrument for exercising power over the project. Your clever suggestions indeed get read. Some clever suggestions take the form of PRs, which -if reasonable- get committed. Some producers of clever suggestions have such output that the receiving end gets fed up with being spammed and punishes the source with -- a commit bit, fear. What advantage, besides a popular predisposition (hype) do the penguins have? Name an instrument that in essence is different from anything that FreeBSD has. > > inside the box. What I see doesn't scare me, and some things are > > reassuring -- e g the unanimous (trusting greg's statement) decision > > in -core lately on a managerial matter that is -not- easy. > > I've made comments in the past that sometimes when a group decide to keep lots > of things secret and then just "announce" something, it is often a good idea > to listen to them. My argument was based on activities of various > intelligence agencies that don't announce anything without VERY good reason. > It does not apply to an open source project that is attempting to give the > impression of openness to all. The "secret group" is fine as long as their announcement is accompanied by a principle on which the announced decision was made. If their decision doesn't follow the principle, they haven't done their job and should be sent back in. If the decision checks with the principle but the -principle- meets violent disagreement, the group should be kicked out and a new one voted in. People who are appointed with the confidence of their friends (as with -core and the developers) have -very- good reason to do their job well and to keep their principles clear. One might argue that -core should be elected democratically by everyone who has a stake. How then do you measure the stakes, and how do you -not- alienate those valuable people who "live and breath FreeBSD 24 hours a day" and might be less inclined to put up with the whims of a group they don't know? Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 15:27:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D0837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CB943FA7 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14NRYca082728 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:27:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14NRYc5082725 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:27:34 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:27:34 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_B=E4ckstr=F6m?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 01:11 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > The limitation of voting to those with "commit bits" creates an > > extreme bias toward those with their heads down and/or those > > with egos heavily invested in their code; it also increases the > > likelihood that "real world" factors will not be considered. > > It is one of the reasons why FreeBSD receives so little press > > and so little corporate support relative to Linux. Advocacy, > > a crucial part of any such project, is not valued. > > > > > > There is truth in this statement. Engineers and programmers are not > always good marketers, advocates or planners. That should be taken > into account. A project w/o all three things, engineering, planning > and marketing will always be hindered... The truth and power of the statement assumes that the engineers and programmers aren't receptive to the arguments of good marketers, advocates, and planners. In practice, I'm not seeing the FreeBSD project run by a bunch of inbred nerds who are resistant to every clue outside their own field. Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 15:28:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222A637B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE9E43F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14NSLca082735 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:28:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14NSLTT082732 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:28:21 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:28:21 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_B=E4ckstr=F6m?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:02 PM 2/4/2003, Larry Sica wrote: > >I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that > >mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of > >articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd > >systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a > >committer? > > Exactly. Perhaps a better form of governance would include another > (more open and democratic) stratum at the top, which in turn managed > teams that did the coding, docs, advocacy, PR, system administration, > etc.? Sketch a structure you believe would work in practice. Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 15:28:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09CBF37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0771B43E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h14NSqca082742 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:28:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h14NSqnZ082739 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:28:52 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:28:52 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_B=E4ckstr=F6m?= To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > > invested in freebsd because i am not a developer. Without ppl like > > me, the users, there would be no freebsd to speak of. In the end it is > > all about the users i think. > > With an open source project (even a large operating system), generally the > (non-paid) developers do the work for their own needs (or interests). > > I'd assume that many of the committers would do the work even without the > large user community. Until they go and do something else, yes. There is turnover in the developer community; without the users there is no base for recruitment (actually diffusion into the community) of developers. In the end, it is all about the users, indeed. Magnus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 15:59:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D1C37B406; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0916A43F79; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h14NwrtV019288; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:59:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:19:27 +0100 To: Alexandr Kovalenko From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Robert Watson , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:25 AM +0200 2003/02/04, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > I really don't care how and how much were hurt feeling of any FreeBSD > developer by any offending actions of Matt, but I do care what he did > and (hopefully) will do for FreeBSD project. Would you be willing to lose every single other programmer working on FreeBSD, just to keep Matt? If so, then I would encourage you to fork off MattBSD. In reality, we wouldn't really risk losing all the programmers on FreeBSD, just a significant number of them, and a number of them are pretty big contributors to the project. When the cost that Matt represents is larger than the benefit, then it's time for him to go. My only question at this stage is whether or not we have reached this point. I hope not. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 17: 4: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2307537B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F9143F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:04:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 60F163A203; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:04:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:04:00 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Oracle 9i client for perl and sqlplus ? Message-ID: <20030204170400.E30308@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE-p2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone been able to get the Oracle 9i (9.2.x Linux client) to run with FreeBSD ? Been looking at it, the company I work for has a large java app which runs fine on FreeBSD and connection to Oracle, but there are some support scripts whcih use SQLplus client and perl DBD module to talk to the Oracle server. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 17:10:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D51137B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow058o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF90643FA3 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org ([213.48.109.41]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 01:09:56 +0000 Message-ID: <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 01:09:59 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: >>One thing i want to make clear though, the idea of core is something i >>would never advocate even thinking of abandoning. I just dont think >>that because i dont have a commit bit and am not a developer that i am >>less valuable. >> >> > >Certainly, value is a perception. Folks who contribute are _very_ >valuable, as it it our contribution-base that gives our most direct >exposure to our user-base. Advocacy, bug reports, anything. > Here is the problem as I see it. Having personally never seen any side of Matt other than hearing him help to debug problems or talking about his latest changes to the VM or other subsystems, it's hard for me to understand what he has done wrong. And I don't think I'm the only one in that situation. However, I do respect the opinions of -core and other developers who are much more deeply involved in FreeBSD than I am. I certainly do not believe that -core would have taken this action without good reason. The problem is that despite Mark and various other folks telling the user-base how important we are to the project, we have not been credited with an explanation about what happened. What seems incredulous to me is that the first we heard anything about this was when it was pointed out by our friendly local troll (who I'm personally starting to become rather fond of). Perhaps -core believes this is a private problem that shouldn't be discussed in public (doing our laundry in public), but that kind of secracy always leads to the sort of reaction we've seen in -chat in the past few days. When something happens that people perceive to have effected them negatively, and they are offered no explanation, the natural reaction is to question the legitamacy of the leadership. People need information in order for them to rationalise what is happening. Readers of -developers (which as I understand it are the committers) will have known what was going on but no-one else had any idea. It seems to me that if -core was unanimous in deciding to remove Matt's commit bit then they should have been unanimous behind a joint statement that explains what happened. If they couldn't be specific about any examples of his behaviour then a general description would have sufficed. The lack of statement from -core and the general secracy that surrounds the -developers list is what I see as the problems here. I think Matt Dillon made major contributions, it saddens me to see him leave and I sincerely want to see him return to the project as a team-player and as a contributor. But I also believe that the project is bigger than one man. Major community-effecting decisions should, at the very least, be communicated to the community. Period. Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 17:22:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD8B37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-85.apple.com [17.250.248.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186C243F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h151MWiU020278 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([68.39.203.40]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9TAHJ00.J76; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:22:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:22:32 -0500 Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_B=E4ckstr=F6m?= From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4D146278-38A8-11D7-9713-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 06:28 PM, Magnus B=E4ckstr=F6m wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Brett Glass wrote: >> At 12:02 PM 2/4/2003, Larry Sica wrote: >>> I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does=20 >>> that >>> mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of >>> articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd >>> systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a >>> committer? >> >> Exactly. Perhaps a better form of governance would include another >> (more open and democratic) stratum at the top, which in turn managed >> teams that did the coding, docs, advocacy, PR, system administration, >> etc.? > > Sketch a structure you believe would work in practice. > That is exactly what i am trying to think about now. I don't believe=20 in talking the talk w/o walking the walk. I hope to come up with at=20 least an idea that will be listened to, and at the least maybe generate=20= some positive discussion. The issue here, for me, is not so much the=20 loss of Matt, but the way it was handled. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 17:25: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E6037B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5501E43F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:25:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h151OO164849; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302050124.h151OO164849@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Shaun Jurrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 17:24:19 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Running -core as a closed, secret cabal certainly does not help. > More open governance would be a vast improvement. A cabal?!?! ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "If there is intellegent life in outer space, then they are undoubtedly using Earth as their insane asylum." -Mark Twain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 17:48:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A09337B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2B043F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:48:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 64AFF536F; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 02:48:49 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Andrew Boothman Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:48:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> (Andrew Boothman's message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 01:09:59 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Boothman writes: > When something happens that people perceive to have effected them > negatively, and they are offered no explanation, the natural reaction > is to question the legitamacy of the leadership. People need > information in order for them to rationalise what is happening. Has it occurred to you that there might be no way to offer a fully satisfactory public answer to your question without causing Matt significant prejudice, and that core might believe very strongly that they are doing the *right* thing by not discussing this in public? DES (not a core team member) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18: 3:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB3937B4DF for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462E443FB8 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:03:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20505; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:03:25 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204185837.040269d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:03:17 -0700 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), Shaun Jurrens From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <0vlm0vg5jj.m0v@localhost.localdomain> References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:22 PM 2/4/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >The Project would be better off if people tried to take other's seeming >offenses less seriously in general, and particularly when considering >actions which are likely to send someone packing forever, like the >withdrawal of priviledges or even the sending of a too-harsh flame. I agree. This is one of the problems which is exacerbated by the fact that the project is governed by the developers. Many developers, even quite brilliant ones, are short-tempered and react very badly when the smallest amount of their bandwidth is consumed by something that is not of interest to them. They lack the patience and diplomatic skills to be managers of the entire project. Yet, FreeBSD, due largely to its history, still vests general governance in the "core team" -- which, in fact, might be glad to get rid of that responsibility and focus pretty much exclusively on hacking. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18: 6: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB6537B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6282943F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:06:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20535; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:05:54 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190405.04034920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:05:51 -0700 To: Magnus Bäckström , Larry Sica From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: "" In-Reply-To: <20030204234620.H761-100000@rockerduck.eep1> References: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:12 PM 2/4/2003, Magnus Bäckström wrote: >The truth and power of the statement assumes that the engineers and >programmers aren't receptive to the arguments of good marketers, >advocates, and planners. In practice, I'm not seeing the FreeBSD >project run by a bunch of inbred nerds who are resistant to every >clue outside their own field. I don't know if I'd put it QUITE that way, but it's definitely true that most of the -core developers have always been uninterested in -- or even actively opposed -- the sort of high-powered, effective advocacy that has made Linux a buzzword in the industry. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18: 7:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0C137B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow053o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B647443F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org ([213.48.109.41]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 02:09:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3E4071F4.7090007@cream.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:07:48 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Andrew Boothman writes: > > >>When something happens that people perceive to have effected them >>negatively, and they are offered no explanation, the natural reaction >>is to question the legitamacy of the leadership. People need >>information in order for them to rationalise what is happening. >> >> > >Has it occurred to you that there might be no way to offer a fully >satisfactory public answer to your question without causing Matt >significant prejudice, and that core might believe very strongly that >they are doing the *right* thing by not discussing this in public? > Yes it has. I said that if -core can't describe exactly what happened then a statement giving the jist of the problem and their reasons for their actions would be good enough. It's the general secracy surrounding this that I have a problem with. Why should the users have to find out about something like this from someone who happened to examine cvs-all closely enough to realise what was happening? Even the cvs log message was constructed to give no information to a casual reader. I'm not asking for news like this to be put on the front page of the web site or sent to -announce or anything, just a succinct message to -chat or maybe -hackers to put the facts into the public domain. Thats all. Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:11:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5D937B7C2 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCBA43F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:11:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1DC6D5197D; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:41:34 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:41:34 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Magnus =?iso-8859-1?B?QuRja3N0cvZt?= Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204094350.027e9e00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 4 February 2003 at 18:56:38 +0100, Magnus Bäckström wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Brett Glass wrote: >> At 03:35 AM 2/4/2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> >>> ....I am not a member of the core team. Nor do I wish to become >>> one - I could never put up with all the shit they get flung at >>> them. >> >> Could this be part of the problem: That the current organizational >> structure is such that some people who should be on -core do not >> wind up there, while others who should not be there do? >> >> Running -core as a closed, secret cabal certainly does not help. >> More open governance would be a vast improvement. This is obviously a matter of perspective. For better or worse, the FreeBSD project has a hierarchy of members. Those with commit bits were informed in some detail. We made a decision, based at least partially on dillon's right to privacy, not to paste it all over slashdot, for example. Those of you who are not committers lose out. Sorry. That doesn't make us closed. > I would consider a more open governance to be harmful. Things would > get bogged down in discussions fed by the opinions of the whole > populace (review current thread) whereas what is needed is indeed a > closed group, appointed by those most involved, on whatever merits > those most involved see fit, for whatever directing purpose they see > fit. This is another reason. This incident has generated enough traffic already. I've counted a total of over 500 messages on this subject already, not including the stuff on slashdot. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:16:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBFE37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33BD43F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:16:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F08255197D; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:46:23 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:46:23 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Larry Sica Cc: Brett Glass , Magnus =?iso-8859-1?B?QuRja3N0cvZt?= , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205021623.GP12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 4 February 2003 at 14:02:41 -0500, Larry Sica wrote: > > I've tried not to get drawn into this but.. > > On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 01:11 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > >> At 10:56 AM 2/4/2003, Magnus Bäckström wrote: >> >>> "Those most involved" need to be developers; they are the only ones >>> investing anything in the project >> >> Nonsense. System administrators, documentors, and users engaged >> in advocacy also have large investments and must be represented. > > I have to agree here. A broader representation of the total > userbase might make for a more even representation. One that takes > other factors into account. To be honest some of the logistics of > the project have been sorely lacking. > > I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that > mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of > articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd > systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a > committer? This is a valid viewpoint. I've been wondering for some time how we could do this. You can contribute other things than code to the source tree, of course, such as documentation. But I don't see a good way to include systems administrators (except in exactly that function within the project, and opportunities there are limited). We've also had problems with advocacy: some advocates are somewhat extreme, and we're concerned they're doing the project more harm than good. If you can come up with some good suggestions, we'd like to see them (at the risk of Yet Another Bike Shed). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:19:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F6037B47E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A86243F3F for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org ([213.48.109.41]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 02:19:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3E4074BB.6070200@cream.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:19:39 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> <20030204101527.GJ5093@atreides.freenix.no> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204185837.040269d0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204185837.040269d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: >>The Project would be better off if people tried to take other's seeming >>offenses less seriously in general, and particularly when considering >>actions which are likely to send someone packing forever, like the >>withdrawal of priviledges or even the sending of a too-harsh flame. >> >> > >I agree. This is one of the problems which is exacerbated by the >fact that the project is governed by the developers. Many >developers, even quite brilliant ones, are short-tempered and >react very badly when the smallest amount of their bandwidth is >consumed by something that is not of interest to them. They lack >the patience and diplomatic skills to be managers of the entire >project. Yet, FreeBSD, due largely to its history, still vests >general governance in the "core team" -- which, in fact, might be glad >to get rid of that responsibility and focus pretty much exclusively >on hacking. > You could well be right there Brett. I think many organisations have people that excelled in a technical position and are promoted into management despite a lack of ability to perform a managerial role. The problem in FreeBSD's context is that if the experienced developers who have the time and dedication to be 'in-charge' don't do the job, then who does? No one knows this project like its developers, and no one else would want the job of trying to steer it..... I personally am generally pleased with how -core performs its duties. It's also important not to generalise too much, I think "many developers" should be "some developers". :) Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:23:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100F037B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704E843FA3 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 414695375; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 03:23:31 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Andrew Boothman Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 03:23:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3E4071F4.7090007@cream.org> (Andrew Boothman's message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:07:48 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> <3E4071F4.7090007@cream.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Boothman writes: > I said that if -core can't describe exactly what happened then a > statement giving the jist of the problem and their reasons for their > actions would be good enough. You already got that. No less than two core team members have expressed their view on what happened and why on -chat. Not core's fault that you weren't paying attention. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:28:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2179A37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA4D43E4A for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:28:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20801; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:28:07 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:27:58 -0700 To: Magnus Bäckström From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Larry Sica , "" In-Reply-To: <20030205001941.X1138-100000@rockerduck.eep1> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:19 PM 2/4/2003, Magnus Bäckström wrote: >Sketch a structure you believe would work in practice. Here's one structure that's stood the test of time in similarly amorphous communities. The community surrounding an operating system consists of people who come and go and have varying degrees of involvement and interest. It's also hard to enumerate the members of the community at any given time. We can't identify (for example) the new sysadmin who has just taken a job involving the administration of a farm containing thousands of machines running the operating system, nor can we tell that the previous sysadmin LOST that job. So, how do you do a relatively democratic vote within such an amorphous community? One way is to use the approach taken by science fiction conventions (such as the WorldCon -- the World Science Fiction Convention). Anyone can, relatively cheaply, purchase an attending or voting membership in the convention, and then is able to vote for the Hugo Awards (a collection of science fiction literary awards) and for the locations of future conventions. The registration money is used to fund gatherings of the group and cover administrative costs. I'm oversimplifying how it works here, but suffice it to say that it's a very clever, democratic system that's well suited to science fiction fans, who are about as hard to herd as programmers. It allows people to come and go while the organization endures. Regular votes of the membership should be taken to elect a governing board which is above, and distinct from, the development team in the organizational structure. The Board would have under it not only the development organization but also teams that do end user advocacy, documentation, release engineering, security, fundraising, Web services, and relations with corporations (e.g. securing tech docs that enable driver support). The memberships of these teams could, and should, overlap. The governing board should be able not only to resolve disputes within and between the teams but take questions to the current membership list for referenda if necessary. Adding this additional tier to the organization would actually simplify life for the developers, who would not be burdened by responsibilities that were handled by a different team unless they chose to join that team also. The rules of the organization would require the teams and the Board to operate openly except when absolutely necessary (for example, when legal action was being discussed). This more "mature" structure would enable better division of labor and responsibility, dispute resolution by parties not inflamed by the dispute, and advocacy unhindered by the preferences of the developers (some of whom want to live in a cozier space than they'd have to inhabit if they were both governing a "hot" project and trying to code). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:30:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6721337B925 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA6D43FAF for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:30:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20824; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:30:25 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204192907.04071930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:30:23 -0700 To: Magnus Bäckström , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:28 PM 2/4/2003, Magnus Bäckström wrote: >There is turnover in the >developer community; without the users there is no base for recruitment >(actually diffusion into the community) of developers. In the end, it is >all about the users, indeed. Agree 100%. The trick is to come up with a system of governance that reflects this. The current one is all about the current inner circle of developers rather than the users. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:33: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBFE37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3FC43F75 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:33:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4B5995197D; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:03:03 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:03:03 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Magnus =?iso-8859-1?B?QuRja3N0cvZt?= , Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Project structure reform (was: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Message-ID: <20030205023303.GQ12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 4 February 2003 at 19:27:58 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:19 PM 2/4/2003, Magnus Bäckström wrote: > >> Sketch a structure you believe would work in practice. > > One way is to use the approach taken by science fiction conventions > (such as the WorldCon -- the World Science Fiction > Convention). Anyone can, relatively cheaply, purchase an attending > or voting membership in the convention, and then is able to vote for > the Hugo Awards (a collection of science fiction literary awards) > and for the locations of future conventions. The registration money > is used to fund gatherings of the group and cover administrative > costs. I'm oversimplifying how it works here, but suffice it to say > that it's a very clever, democratic system I'd call that plutocracy, not democracy. What if Microsoft sent thousands of people to join? > Regular votes of the membership should be taken to elect a governing > board which is above, and distinct from, the development team in the > organizational structure. The Board would have under it not only the > development organization but also teams that do end user advocacy, > documentation, release engineering, security, fundraising, Web > services, and relations with corporations (e.g. securing tech docs > that enable driver support). And, modulo plutocracy, how does this differ in principle from the FreeBSD core team? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:34:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC3C37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA3143F79 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20878; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:34:01 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204193238.0408d9d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:33:58 -0700 To: Dave Hayes From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Shaun Jurrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200302050124.h151OO164849@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:24 PM 2/4/2003, Dave Hayes wrote: >A cabal?!?! When I was first introduced to FreeBSD, that's what I was told it was -- by someone who was a member of that "cabal" at the time. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:34:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4879937B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow053o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B7D43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org ([213.48.109.41]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 02:34:55 +0000 Message-ID: <3E407806.4000401@cream.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:33:42 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> <3E4071F4.7090007@cream.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Andrew Boothman writes: > > >>I said that if -core can't describe exactly what happened then a >>statement giving the jist of the problem and their reasons for their >>actions would be good enough. >> >> > >You already got that. No less than two core team members have >expressed their view on what happened and why on -chat. Not core's >fault that you weren't paying attention. > > You're right. Except that I was paying attention, and I read those posts with interest. My standing point is that we only got those statements for -core members because this conversation was kicked off by our troll. It was probably only a matter of time before someone noticed what had happened and posted to -chat, but there was more than 24-hours between the commit being made and someone noticing. It would be better IMHO if -core had simply made a statement at the time - I feel that much, but certainly not all, of this thread would have been avoided. Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:35:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627AC37B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BF843F93; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20030205023537.ZAON3191.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 02:35:37 +0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030205022413.01d3e9a8@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:35:07 +0000 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Larry Sica From: Colin Percival Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205021623.GP12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:46 05/02/2003 +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >On Tuesday, 4 February 2003 at 14:02:41 -0500, Larry Sica wrote: > > I do not have the expertise to do any hard core programming, does that > > mean i therefore should have no say? What if i write a number of > > articles, or am really helpful? Or maintain hundreds of freebsd > > systems? Does my investment seem less just because I am not a > > committer? > >This is a valid viewpoint. I've been wondering for some time how we >could do this. You can contribute other things than code to the >source tree, of course, such as documentation. But I don't see a good >way to include systems administrators (except in exactly that function >within the project, and opportunities there are limited). We've also >had problems with advocacy: some advocates are somewhat extreme, and >we're concerned they're doing the project more harm than good. If you >can come up with some good suggestions, we'd like to see them (at the >risk of Yet Another Bike Shed). I think the voting must be restricted to committers, just because there is otherwise no good way of generating a voting list. That said, I don't see why -core must be a subset of the people who vote in -core elections. How about establishing a rule that -core must include at least one representative from each of {bin, ports, doc, advocacy}, and allowing anyone to stand for election (provided they are nominated by a committer)? This would leave "control" pretty much where it is right now; but it would at least provide a voice for advocacy. Colin Percival To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:40:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C64737B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE4C43F79; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 5F25B5372; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 03:40:17 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Colin Percival Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 03:40:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030205022413.01d3e9a8@popserver.sfu.ca> (Colin Percival's message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:35:07 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030205022413.01d3e9a8@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Colin Percival writes: > How about establishing a rule that -core must include at least one > representative from each of {bin, ports, doc, advocacy}, and allowing > anyone to stand for election (provided they are nominated by a > committer)? ports practically have their own core already (portmgr). doc is not really a separate entity, every committer is expected to work on documentation (though most don't unfortunately) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:41:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D90737B422; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A41543F85; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20949; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:41:07 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204193910.0403cd10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:41:04 -0700 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Project structure reform (was: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Cc: Magnus Bäckström , Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20030205023303.GQ12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:33 PM 2/4/2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >I'd call that plutocracy, not democracy. What if Microsoft sent >thousands of people to join? Fine. It'd be great to get support from Microsoft, which lately has actually been advocating BSD (in case you haven't noticed). And if Microsoft misbehaved, the project would either vote the leaders out or fork in a flash. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:41:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90CD37B648 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD29543F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org ([213.48.109.41]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 02:41:28 +0000 Message-ID: <3E4079D7.8040303@cream.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 02:41:27 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) References: <20030204005427.Q63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3E3FA575.92A5B49@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3E3FA575.92A5B49@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >"f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > >>uh. no. >> >>the US hasn't chosen to "live with terrorism." >> >>not any more than the Germans did in the 70s, or for that matter, how they >>did in the 40s, after taking over most of France. >> >> > >Respectfully, the Germans really don't have the option of carpet >bombing the country their terrorists come from out of existance, >if they decide that world opinion doesn't matter to them. > >If they had been willing to kill everyone (scortched earth), >they could have avoided the problems in occupied France, as >well (though it would have made another country harder to >invade, what with any country the came into after that >fighting for their lives, rather than just to maintain their >government). > > > > >>Terrorism is not a standup war. anyone who's lived with it at any point in >>their lives knows this. You can't drop bombs on terrorists. You handle >>them the same way you deal with any other extremist group: you arrest >>them, or you kill them. >> >>many european countries learned this lesson years and years ago, and have >>kept special anti-terrorist police forces since then. >> >> > >You *can* bomb terrorists, if you are willing to accept sufficient >collateral damage. It all depends on the level you set for what's >an acceptable amount of collateral damage. > What about the terrorists that are already in your country? Or those living in London, Paris or any other European city? You can't be suggesting that bombing any of these places is a good idea? Sure you can go hunting in places like Afghanistan and other countries where they are hiding. You might even find quite a few of them. But those who are left are more dangerous with their comrades killed then they were when their friends were alive... Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:44:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91F637B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D544B43F43; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21017; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:44:38 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204194151.04072d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:44:36 -0700 To: Colin Percival , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Larry Sica From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030205022413.01d3e9a8@popserver.sfu.ca> References: <20030205021623.GP12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <3C66FB8E-3873-11D7-9842-000393A335A2@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 PM 2/4/2003, Colin Percival wrote: > I think the voting must be restricted to committers, just because there is otherwise no good way of generating a voting list. I disagree. Witness what the World Science Fiction Convention does to develop a list of Hugo voters from within the science fiction community. It works. (And, contrary to what Greg suggests, no publisher has ever been able to stuff the ballot box and "buy" a Hugo.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:46:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD08B37B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18DA43F43; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:46:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21040; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:46:12 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204194520.040236b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:46:10 -0700 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Project structure reform (was: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Cc: Magnus Bäckström , Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20030205023303.GQ12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204110551.00c54680@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204190652.04041d70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:33 PM 2/4/2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >What if Microsoft sent thousands of people to join? Oh, and one more thought on this: The project would get all of the money Microsoft wasted on the effort. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:55:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A15737B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA4943F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gFis-000510-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:55:38 -0800 Received: (qmail 17138 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Feb 2003 02:55:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:55:30 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205025530.GA17078@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > This incident has generated enough traffic > already. I've counted a total of over 500 messages on this subject > already, not including the stuff on slashdot. Wow. So -chat is minor stuff (around 100 on the topic so far). <$0.02> I think FreeBSD is not and should not be a democracy, and those non-committers who want to direct the project or influence core's decisions are unrealistic. Those who make demands are worse than that. Perhaps the elements of democracy introduced in the last few years have changed people's ideas of how it works: nobody would dream of demanding things from Theo de Raadt, or Linus Torvalds, or claiming to those people that just because they use his stuff on a daily basis they have a right to tell him what to do (as opposed to offering suggestions, which we all can do in a civil manner). But somehow people (on this list, at least) seem to think they can do that with FreeBSD's core -- maybe because no single member of core is as famous/notorious as the names I cited. Committers can vote for core, and as a non-committer, I think that's ample. It's ridiculous to say a system administrator should have a say in controlling the project's direction just because he uses FreeBSD daily. By that reckoning, I should be represented on my toothbrush manufacturer's board. I don't want to vote, and in projects like this, I don't believe in excessive democracy. Look at Debian -- one of the most democratic projects around, development moves at the speed of treacle. By contrast, look at phoenix (the web browser) -- they've closed their development process to a few well-chosen insiders, and in a matter of months they've produced a browser with the best features of Mozilla, with the same code base, but vastly faster and leaner. FreeBSD's team is still doing a great job, on the whole. If a significant fraction of the other committers truly believe that dillon was on balance a hindrance and not a help, they were right to remove his commit bit. I don't particularly care to know the inside story, and I apologize for this thread (I didn't start it, but two of my posts did get linked on Slashdot's front page, so I guess I can take some of the blame). Whether they could have done it more "nicely" I don't know -- well, they tried to keep it quiet, which was nice of them, and if it weren't for our pet troll they may have succeeded. Since then, the statements they've made are well-mannered, and explain things quite adequately as far as I'm concerned. Now lets get back to improving the system... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 18:56: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDD837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAEA43FB8 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:56:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h152u13J029189 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:56:01 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel message -- a prank? (was rant about commit bit ...) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:56:01 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200302041755.42723@X-tra> <20030205020124.GN12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030205020124.GN12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302051356.01390.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 05 February 2003 13:01, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > with last hour, cvsup current, rebuild everything,... immediately > > after kernel mount msg for / > > kernel cranks out msg > > Be nice to each other, mmmkay? > > system otherwise fine. Is this a known prank? > > It is now. It's in /sys/kern/init_main.c: > > 1.112 (des 20-Apr-99): =20 > 1.224 (des 04-Feb-03): printf("Be nice to each other,=20 mmmkay?\n"); 1.223 (des 04-Feb-03): > 1.118 (jb 05-May-99): for (path =3D init_path; *path = !=3D > '\0'; path =3D next) { rofl (: Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19: 2:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9DD37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2E343F43 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a040.otenet.gr [212.205.215.40]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15327Wx012178; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:02:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15326Hq013790; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:02:06 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15326Ai013789; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:02:06 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:02:06 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Larry Sica Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205030206.GA13588@gothmog.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-02-04 14:22, Larry Sica wrote: > > One thing i want to make clear though, the idea of core is something > i would never advocate even thinking of abandoning. I just dont > think that because i dont have a commit bit and am not a developer > that i am less valuable. You are not. It is clearly stated and explained in detail in the Committer's Guide. Committers are encouraged to review & check the guide for updates every now and then. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19: 8:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D1837B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118EB43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:08:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a040.otenet.gr [212.205.215.40]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1538TWx017605; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:08:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1538THq013835; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:08:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h1538RV6013834; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:08:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:08:27 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Larry Sica Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205030827.GB13588@gothmog.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204120535.02835100@localhost> <20030205030206.GA13588@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205030206.GA13588@gothmog.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-02-05 05:02, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2003-02-04 14:22, Larry Sica wrote: > > > > One thing i want to make clear though, the idea of core is something > > i would never advocate even thinking of abandoning. I just dont > > think that because i dont have a commit bit and am not a developer > > that i am less valuable. > > You are not. It is clearly stated and explained in detail in the [...] That should have been "You're not less valuable". Just clarifying, in case someone misreads that. > Committer's Guide. Committers are encouraged to review & check the > guide for updates every now and then. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:13:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7B937B416 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C414043F9B for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0277.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.22] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gG0I-0004mn-00; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:13:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E408108.B4745D42@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:12:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Boothman Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) References: <20030204005427.Q63914-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3E3FA575.92A5B49@mindspring.com> <3E4079D7.8040303@cream.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d7a6996cbcae46acd6143ff116f49b19548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Boothman wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >"f.johan.beisser" wrote: > >>Terrorism is not a standup war. anyone who's lived with it at any point in > >>their lives knows this. You can't drop bombs on terrorists. You handle > >>them the same way you deal with any other extremist group: you arrest > >>them, or you kill them. > > > >You *can* bomb terrorists, if you are willing to accept sufficient > >collateral damage. It all depends on the level you set for what's > >an acceptable amount of collateral damage. > > What about the terrorists that are already in your country? Have you ever seen the film GATTACA? If your DNA is on record, and you are checked as you go into every public building, identity is easy to confirm after the fact. I dislike the idea intensely, but it's *possible* to monitor a population, now, to the extent that you can effectively eliminate terrorists after the fact, without having to be so crude as to amplify their power by enabling them to target the collateral damage you cause attacking them. > Or those living in London, Paris or any other European city? You can't be > suggesting that bombing any of these places is a good idea? Establish a "zero tolerance" policy. One issue Europe has with these sorts of people is that it does not engage in capital punishment. This is a moral high ground one cannot afford when one is defending ones existance. But the result is that terrorists can kill with impunity, with no fear of being killed in retribution, and every expectation of eventually being able to repeat their offenses, in time, until their goals are met, or they die of old age. There is a differential in cost to society vs. penalty. Differential penalties are the same reason there are "gangs" in the U.S.. > Sure you can go hunting in places like Afghanistan and other countries > where they are hiding. You might even find quite a few of them. But > those who are left are more dangerous with their comrades killed then > they were when their friends were alive... That's a nonsensical statement. If your tactic is suicide bombing, any reduction in your numbers reduces the danger you represent. It's a very simple equation: less living bodies := fewer explosives delivery systems components. The fact is that nothing will satisfy most of these people, except handing all state powers over to them for whatever borders they want on their little kingdoms, and then permitting them to engage in genocide, unchecked, within those borders, and praying they do not get bored after they have killed all thier own , and come after those in neighboring states, simply because they have resources available to do so. And you are quite guaranteed that, even were you to let this happen, eventually there would be border friction between the kingdoms, and you would be right back where you started, having solved nothing. Rodney King is often quoted as asking "Can't we all just get along?". The answer is "No, we can't. There is no way to make everyone happy at the same time. There is no four-color mapping theorem for conflict avoidance". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:15:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C579237B405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C02343F75 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:15:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a040.otenet.gr [212.205.215.40]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h153FiWx024338; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:15:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h153FhHq013926; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:15:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h153Fg6U013924; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:15:42 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:15:42 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Magnus B?ckstr?m Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205031542.GD13588@gothmog.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-02-05 00:28, Magnus B?ckstr?m wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > > invested in freebsd because i am not a developer. Without ppl like > > > me, the users, there would be no freebsd to speak of. In the end it is > > > all about the users i think. > > > > With an open source project (even a large operating system), generally the > > (non-paid) developers do the work for their own needs (or interests). > > > > I'd assume that many of the committers would do the work even without the > > large user community. > > Until they go and do something else, yes. There is turnover in the > developer community; without the users there is no base for recruitment > (actually diffusion into the community) of developers. In the end, it is > all about the users, indeed. You're right. IMNSHO, Contributors, all of them, no matter how large their work on FreeBSD is, should always (and I mean *ALWAYS*, in bold, caps, possibly underlined too) be treated as "potential committers". - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:18:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C970237B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086F843F79; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21433; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:18:33 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 20:18:30 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205025530.GA17078@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:55 PM 2/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >It's ridiculous to say a system administrator should have a >say in controlling the project's direction just because he uses >FreeBSD daily. I strongly disagree. He and his company may have a far larger investment in FreeBSD -- in dollars and man-hours -- than any committer. In the case of a commercial product, users can vote with their wallets. The way FreeBSD is currently organized, they do not even have that much influence. This is topsy-turvy. This is open source; the user constituency deserves MORE, not LESS influence than it would have on commercial products. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:22:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B1937B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B8943F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:22:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21478; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:22:11 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201908.04045a20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 20:22:07 -0700 To: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: kernel message -- a prank? (was rant about commit bit ...) In-Reply-To: <200302051356.01390.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030205020124.GN12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200302041755.42723@X-tra> <20030205020124.GN12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:56 PM 2/4/2003, JacobRhoden wrote: >On Wednesday 05 February 2003 13:01, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> > with last hour, cvsup current, rebuild everything,... immediately >> > after kernel mount msg for / >> > kernel cranks out msg >> > Be nice to each other, mmmkay? >> > system otherwise fine. Is this a known prank? >> >> It is now. It's in /sys/kern/init_main.c: >> >> 1.112 (des 20-Apr-99): >> 1.224 (des 04-Feb-03): printf("Be nice to each other, >mmmkay?\n"); 1.223 (des 04-Feb-03): >> 1.118 (jb 05-May-99): for (path = init_path; *path != >> '\0'; path = next) { That's a bug. It should read, "Be EXCELLENT to each other." Maybe we need to be able to assign people a "should be committed" bit" ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:22:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F345937B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F4243FB8 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:22:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gG8p-0006x2-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:22:27 -0800 Received: (qmail 17301 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Feb 2003 03:22:24 -0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:22:24 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205032224.GA17266@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Feb 4, 2003 at 20:18:30: > At 07:55 PM 2/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >It's ridiculous to say a system administrator should have a > >say in controlling the project's direction just because he uses > >FreeBSD daily. > > I strongly disagree. He and his company may have a far larger > investment in FreeBSD -- in dollars and man-hours -- than any > committer. I've spent a lot on Colgate over the years. > In the case of a commercial product, users can vote with their > wallets. The way FreeBSD is currently organized, they do not > even have that much influence. They can still vote with their feet. If you don't like it, don't use it. (Actually, I don't even know why I bother replying to you any more...) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:27:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905C837B48E; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA41A43FA7; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:27:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21522; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:27:10 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204202420.03c58a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 20:27:06 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205032224.GA17266@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:22 PM 2/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I've spent a lot on Colgate over the years. And I spent a lot on MCI. I switched away due to their failures of governance, and so have others. It's cost them plenty. >> In the case of a commercial product, users can vote with their >> wallets. The way FreeBSD is currently organized, they do not >> even have that much influence. > >They can still vote with their feet. Which has no effect. And that's the point. The user constituency must have more influence than that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:30:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E2E37B6FF; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF9143F79; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.4/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h153URJF006550; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:00:27 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: cain.gsoft.com.au: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be [127.0.0.1] Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 05 Feb 2003 14:00:27 +1030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.3 () CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 13:48, Brett Glass wrote: > I strongly disagree. He and his company may have a far larger > investment in FreeBSD -- in dollars and man-hours -- than any > committer. That doesn't matter - if you use it and you don't contribute then you are getting it for nothing. Sure it's free, but it works on people contributing to it's upkeep. > In the case of a commercial product, users can vote with their > wallets. The way FreeBSD is currently organized, they do not > even have that much influence. This is topsy-turvy. This is > open source; the user constituency deserves MORE, not LESS > influence than it would have on commercial products. I don't think so - if you contribute you help drive it, so you have say. If you use it and don't contribute and find it doesn't do what you want, either deal with it, stop using it, or get contributing. The ship is steered by committers, not users. If you have no technical skill but have money riding on it, perhaps you should employ a committer for implementing something, or have them maintain your setup. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:38: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2306837B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8560043F9B; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:38:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21622; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:37:42 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204203506.03c92d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 20:37:39 -0700 To: "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:30 PM 2/4/2003, Daniel O'Connor wrote: >That doesn't matter - if you use it and you don't contribute then you >are getting it for nothing. Voting, being involved in the community, and advocating the product is a contribution too. As I've said before, the current system not only does not properly value advocacy but often assigns it NEGATIVE value when in fact it has great positive value. This is why FreeBSD is virtually unknown relative to Linux, and receives none of the corporate support, press, or other benefits that Linux does. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:41:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E303437B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D129043F75; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:41:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.4/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h153fpJF006793; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:11:51 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: cain.gsoft.com.au: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be [127.0.0.1] Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204203506.03c92d90@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204203506.03c92d90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1044416510.2362.6.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 05 Feb 2003 14:11:51 +1030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.2 () CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_05_08 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 14:07, Brett Glass wrote: > >are getting it for nothing. > > Voting, being involved in the community, and advocating the > product is a contribution too. As I've said before, the > current system not only does not properly value advocacy > but often assigns it NEGATIVE value when in fact it has > great positive value. This is why FreeBSD is virtually > unknown relative to Linux, and receives none of the > corporate support, press, or other benefits that Linux > does. I don't agree with your statements about lack of commercialisation is the fault of a lack of advocacy. Linux DID get a head start - IMHO that is the leading cause. I don't see how you can prove it one way or the other. (And I'm not particularly interested being bombarded by 'proof' either thanks). I am merely pointing out that my opinion is that if you want to steer the boat, get contributing. You may say evangelising is equally valuable, but I disagree, and from the replies I've seen I'm not the only one. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 19:59:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0630D37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13404.mail.yahoo.com (web13404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A70EA43F9B for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:59:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030205035930.45235.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.182] by web13404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 04:59:30 CET Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 04:59:30 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: Project status To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This particular thread seems relevant for a repost... Well, I sent the following posting to NetBSD kernel's list because one of their kernel guys asked me to. As a short summary some of us want o turn FreeBSD into a decent desktop by providing high quality graphics support in the kernel. Although we are not talking about vaporware and we expect to have something working for the 5.x series, this will probably be 6.0 material (if all goes well). We need more people involved! ____________ Hi gang; Someone suggested me to write something about KGI to this list. I'm not very used to NetBSD or kernel hacking in general, so my description will be deliberately not very technical. 1) How this started. The GGI project was born on Linux with the idea of generating a complete graphic system for multiuser unix-like systems. There were also security concerns with the way XWindows and svgalib addressed memory. The Berlin consortium and GGI were born at the same time. The initial release was under the GPL to gain acceptance of the linux crowd but after a flamewar Linus killed this attempt. The old version of GGI continued living for somewhile in the form of KGICon (a set of graphic drivers) and EVStack (a terminal emulator). I don't know much more on this stage since the license was not acceptable for FreeBSD. 2) The redesign. For convinience, GGI moved to an X11 style license and got split into two projects: Kernel Graphics Interface (http://kgi.sourcefourge.net/) and GGI (only a graphics library). Both projects had a period of slow development but with a lot of design being made. Steffen Seeger, the KGI project leader, designed a complete driver structure, with some influence from project UDI (http://www.project-udi.org/). KGI is in principle platform independent, and permits the building of graphics driver using building blocks with chipsets. A driver from one platform should work on a different platform just be recompiling it (we are about to prove that in FreeBSD). Steffen also spend some time studying how X does things and he has a prototype called PhoeniX where KGI is the base system. Performance is expected to be similar to that of native X. 3) FreeBSD's rationale Since XFree86 4.x has been producing multiplatform modules and we have always considered it´s better to have multiplatform userland drivers than to have uniplatform kernel drivers. Many graphic card developers have complained about userland drivers though and sooner or later there might be a tendency to do that in kernel. There are other tendencies that make kernel support for graphics very desirable. Some developers have recognized that Linux has failed in the desktop market precisely do to it's unfriendliness and lack of graphic support. Many platforms have by default graphic support and new platforms are planned that might not have a text console. 4) The current state. For some months Nicholas Souchu from FreeBSD has been working on porting KGI to FreeBSD. While he has been finding Linuxisms, he has also been looking into incorporating some FreeBSD especifics, in particular newbus. There has been a lot of discussion on the kgi-devel@sourceforge.net list about modifications to memory management for other systems. There was also a preliminary discussion in FreeBSD-arch towards modernizing the console, also possibly porting wscons to FreeBSD. Even when we are few developers from the BSD side, there is a first port of KGI to FreeBSD, we expect the KGI key developers to adopt FreeBSD as their primary platform. More information on this port can be found here: http://people.freebsd.org/~nsouch/ggiport.html There is a lot left to do. Future steps include defining a good interface and porting other graphic libraries like MGL and Allegro to support the accelerated infraestructure. NetBSD developers would be very welcome to contribute on the lists. Graphic developers are not easy to find in the BSDs, but the IMHO best graphical UNIX-like systems right now (MachOS X and IRIX) are based on BSD 4.4. best regards and see you in kgi-devel, Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 20:32:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2803737B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4446943F43; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22284; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:32:28 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204213017.027f7d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 21:32:24 -0700 To: "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1044416510.2362.6.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204203506.03c92d90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204203506.03c92d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:41 PM 2/4/2003, Daniel O'Connor wrote: >I don't agree with your statements about lack of commercialisation is >the fault of a lack of advocacy. It is. Look at the activities of Bruce Perens, ESR, etc.; they were vital to the corporate adoption of Linux. >Linux DID get a head start - IMHO that is the leading cause. As the dot-com bust showed, the "first-mover advantage" is overrated. FreeBSD is STILL being hobbled by poor advocacy. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 20:39: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBF937B401; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-89.apple.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6D143F43; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:38:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h154cvrJ022227; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([68.39.203.40]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9TJKW00.PIK; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:38:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:38:54 -0500 Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Brett Glass From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204213017.027f7d40@localhost> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 11:32 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:41 PM 2/4/2003, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >> I don't agree with your statements about lack of commercialisation is >> the fault of a lack of advocacy. > > It is. Look at the activities of Bruce Perens, ESR, etc.; > they were vital to the corporate adoption of Linux. > >> Linux DID get a head start - IMHO that is the leading cause. > > As the dot-com bust showed, the "first-mover advantage" is > overrated. FreeBSD is STILL being hobbled by poor advocacy. > One must differentiate between what good and poor advocacy is. There is also the idea that there is no such thing as bad press. A marketing firm i worked for would generate press many manyt ways, some good, some bad. The main thing i got though was it is all about relationships with outlets that can market ones product. That is where any advocacy would need to be focused. Do things to get noticed, good things, bad things. Not bad enough to turn everyone off, just enough to get your name out. That is sleazy tho imho, and i didn't like the idea. But the point was, to be noticed you have to want to be. Linux did, FreeBSD didn't really, not like Linux did at least. I'd say it isnt really advocates freebsd but good, solid, positive marketing. And there is a difference. One is perceived as evangelical, one is not. - --Larry > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkCVY+eV8VtPCL3dEQIbIwCfb5vs/6zg1apY/VDuImjAHhnYgNoAn1T3 K6RrfMu8Vf7SUENBiouRx7gi =fiCh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 21: 3:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E3B37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B998743F85 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@heorot.1nova.com) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8BA7C18FC; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E5E18FB; Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:07:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 22:07:55 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: bsdaemon@mail.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) In-Reply-To: <20030204171351.18157.qmail@mail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I love that "my hard earned tax dollars" bit.=A0 So rich!=A0 Like you hav= e > any say in whether you pay those tax dollars, or where they go, for > that matter.=A0 Please, people, let's talk about B-S-D, let's talk about > you-and-me.... =09Just like to point out that I know of two people who do not pay US Federal Taxes as they are voluntary. Of course they end up spending most of what they save in constant legal battles with the IRS who try to come after them every 3-4 years. =09Until recently I didn't mind paying those taxes... =09Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 0: 0:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D3437B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.infospace.com (mail1.infospace.com [206.29.197.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 344C443FCD for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:00:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from william.carrel@infospace.com) Received: (qmail 5355 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2003 08:00:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO absolut.inspinc.ad) (10.100.11.48) by jim.inspinc.ad with SMTP; 5 Feb 2003 08:00:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 20292 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2003 08:00:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO infospace.com) ([10.100.29.130]) (envelope-sender ) by absolut.inspinc.ad (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 5 Feb 2003 08:00:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 00:00:10 -0800 Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttle blewup) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: William Carrel To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 10:07 PM, Rick Hamell wrote: > Just like to point out that I know of two people who do not pay US > Federal Taxes as they are voluntary. Of course they end up spending > most > of what they save in constant legal battles with the IRS who try to > come > after them every 3-4 years. > Until recently I didn't mind paying those taxes... http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/tax_fraud/frivolous.pdf pages 3 and 4 -- William Carrel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 1: 4:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E5A37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 01:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailc.telia.com (mailc.telia.com [194.22.190.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B03943FC7 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 01:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (malin.twenty4help.se [195.67.108.195]) by mailc.telia.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1594ELJ022613; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:04:15 +0100 (CET) X-Original-Recipient: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:00:38 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: [snip] > That doesn't matter - if you use it and you don't contribute then you > are getting it for nothing. [snip lots of text] I swore I would not get sucked into this thread, but I just cant take this without objecting. I cant program worth shit. My skills are limited to simple Perl or shell scripts, I wouldnt be able to write a C program even if my life depended on it. However, I run FreeBSD, and lots of it. Several machines at home are tracking the latest in -STABLE and -CURRENT. At work, I advocate FreeBSD as soon as I get a chance, which has resulted in that what was once a Windows/Netware only shop now frequently invests in new hardware and immediatly installs FreeBSD on it. Firewalls, DNS's, mail- and webservers all run FreeBSD, and even some of the fileservers are starting to move towards BSD/Samba powered systems. I have somewhat forced my company to buy several copies of every FreeBSD release on CD or DVD, which they dont mind since it's still a fraction of what it would cost to run win2k Advanced on all servers. On my sparetime, I sleep, eat and breath FreeBSD. I spend most weekends helping out small companies or friends or even friends of friends setting up firewalls for their home, a small webserver for their garage firm, maybe a fileserver for a small local internet café or helping the local computer store install FreeBSD on some machines because their customers asked if it was supported. I spend hours each day on various BSD portal sites answering newbie questions in forums and I try to help out on the mailinglists as soon as I have the time. I have *never* turned down anyone asking for help! Now some people claim this is worth nothing, I should not get a say at all since I cant code? On the other hand, any random person with some programming knowledge but totally lacking social skills, he is a welcome contributor to the project? Sorry if I sound harsh, and let me just make clear that this mail is not directly aimed at the author of the mail to which it replies, he just happened to be the one that set it off. Following this thread Ive seen a lot of people expressing opinions that could easily be interpreted as 'if you cant code, youre not contributing'. I sincerely hope this is not the opinion of the majority of the community. If it is, I will (reluctantly but as soon as possible) switch to linux. -- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 1:22:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744B537B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 01:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917A043FA3 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 01:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h159MGja091896; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:22:16 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h159MF31091895; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:22:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h159JiaX086594; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:19:44 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302050919.h159JiaX086594@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:00:38 +0100." <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 09:19:44 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" writes: > Now some people claim this is worth nothing, I should not get a > say at all since I cant code? If somebody said that,m, then they are not a developer that I know, and they are not a core member. Feature requests, advocacy, bug reports, documentation submession are just _some_ of the many ways a non-programmer can contribute. > On the other hand, any random person with some programming > knowledge but totally lacking social skills, he is a welcome > contributor to the project? No. Social skills are essential. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:10:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35C137B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C6443F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9CE799FC; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F6B970; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:10:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:10:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: <20030205035930.45235.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030205045759.L84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > NetBSD developers would be very welcome to contribute > on the lists. Graphic developers are not easy to find > in the BSDs, but the IMHO best graphical UNIX-like > systems right now (MachOS X and IRIX) are based on BSD > 4.4. I hate to disagree, but Irix is SysV, with some BSD compatability bits retained. %uname -aR IRIX64 wraith 6.5 6.5.18m 10151453 IP35 This can be found in many of the files on Irix: # Copyright (c) 1984 AT&T # All Rights Reserved # # THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF AT&T # The copyright notice above does not evidence any # actual or intended publication of such source code. And looking around you'll also find: /* Copyright (c) 1990, 1991 UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. */ /* Copyright (c) 1984, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990 AT&T */ /* All Rights Reserved */ /* THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF */ /* UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. */ /* The copyright notice above does not evidence any */ /* actual or intended publication of such source code. */ /* * +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ * PROPRIETARY NOTICE (Combined) * * This source code is unpublished proprietary information * constituting, or derived under license from AT&T's UNIX(r) System V. * In addition, portions of such source code were derived from Berkeley * 4.3 BSD under license from the Regents of the University of * California. * * * * Copyright Notice * * Notice of copyright on this source code product does not indicate * publication. * * (c) 1986,1987,1988,1989 Sun Microsystems, Inc * (c) 1983,1984,1985,1986,1987,1988,1989 AT&T. * All rights reserved. * */ Taking care of SGIs is how I pay my bills, and while it's many things, BSD isn't one of them. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:54:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63CE37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D1F43F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:54:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0MKH3QX038580 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:17:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0MKH2NG038572 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:17:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E2EFC33.1090402@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:16:51 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: CoLocation anyone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just curious if anyone is looking for cheap colocation service.. I'm doing this out of my home, and am looking for some people to help me cover the costs of going to a T1 next month.. Email me off list if you're interested.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:55:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419DC37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736B743F85 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:55:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0RNOxsn080328; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:24:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0RNOvNG080321; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:24:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E35BFC1.6040100@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:24:49 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat Subject: CoLocation anyone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just curious if anyone is looking for cheap colocation service.. I'm doing this out of my home, and am looking for some people to help me cover the costs of going to a T1 next month.. Email me off list if you're interested.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:55:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FEAF37B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2719043F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0LE99RT004232; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:09:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0LE97NG004225; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:09:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E2D5477.8070209@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:08:55 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hunter Peress Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 References: <20030121100434.23735.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hunter Peress wrote: > ------------------- > Hi, im on the BitTorrent team. > (http://bitconjurer.org/bittorrent) > In one line: its a protocol and an implemenation for > p2p sharing of > specific files; its not a search network. > > Everything is free AND open. > > We mirrored 5.0 AS SOON as it came out, but we didnt > get any publicity. > ( http://tacos.sus.mcgill.ca/~hperes/BT_BSD5.0/ ). We > posted a comment > on /. but it received little moderation. So when will it show up in the ports collection?? :) Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:55:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8513037B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F38843FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0NEGUx4092250; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:16:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0NEGSNG092243; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:16:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E2FF92F.7070700@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:16:15 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JacobRhoden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: recover overwritten file References: <1043295876.6598.207.camel@duncan.au.darkbluesea.com> <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org JacobRhoden wrote: > > Is there a particular reason why there are no facilities to 'un' unlink a file > in freebsd? (apart from the obvious reaon of - people shouldnt delete files > that they want to keep)... > > is there some philisopical reason that it shouldnt be at least an option? or > is it just due to no one bothering? perhaps it could be disabled by default, > but enabled on a per file system basis via fstab? (ie the /home partion). > > Yes I know people should make backups, but there are always going to be idiot > out there and it may save some admin's some time? I think if it mattered that much, the admin would write wrappers for the basic tools (like cp, rm, mv, etc), but I see your point. Granted that writing wrappers doesn't completely solve the problem, it would reduce it. Maybe someone who writes filesystem code for FreeBSD (UFS,UFS2,FFS people?) would know if there is a technical reason for this.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:57:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B1A37B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5711A43F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0NKSvSu022036; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:28:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0NKSuNG022028; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:28:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E30507D.2080002@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:28:45 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hunter Peress Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 References: <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hunter Peress wrote: >>2) Post to FreeBSD lists to announce your BT mirror when releases are >>made. Mention why people might want to try it this way instead of >>using ftp which they already understand and love. > > > That IS exactly what I did, that is exactly why you are responding to me right now. > This current email that I am writing is part of a thread that was started for this > exact purpose. > > As you can see, this is very much like the chicken and the egg. Therefore, in order > to get out of this cycle, other things need to be done. The key here is for you to make a port of it.. It sounds like you are very familiar with the tool, so it would be most beneficial and time efficient for you to write the port. Since there isn't much to compile, and you already know the tool, it shouldn't take you too long. The key here is most busy FreeBSD users (the people you are generally targeting) aren't going to hunt down a new tool and get it set up, then make sure python is in and running, etc, just to download the ISO's. They'll simply run fetch and walk away, even if it takes all night. Now, on the other hand, if I can simply do a "make install" on the port, then run a quick command line, and I'll have it, I know I'd definitely try. The first thing I personally did when I saw your email, is look for a port. When it wasn't there, I went to the bittorrent web site and looked for a package - nothing. Only an RPM (if I recall correctly). I saw that it wouldn't take me long, but I lost interest and went on to "real work" - you know, the stuff the company pays me to do. Anyway, people can help you get the port going, but the truth is, ports are like RPMs, but better, and most of us are "addicted" to them to the point that if it isn't in the ports, it can wait. Don't get frustrated - if you're determined you'll whip up a port this evening and in a few days people will be installing it easily and happily. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:57:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74F437B406 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE1C43E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:57:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0MEHJmb096407; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:17:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0MEHING096398; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:17:18 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E2EA7E1.30901@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:17:05 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <200301220108.h0M18v190265@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe we should have a freebsd-argue@freebsd.org mailing list.. These threads are making my eyes burn.. :) [..snip..] [..clip..] [..cut.. ] Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 5:57:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC51737B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B645243E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h0LE19hx003864; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:01:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0LE14NG003857; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:01:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E2D5294.4080309@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:00:52 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> <20030121090133.GC29071@klapaucius.zer0.org> <3E2D101A.F5E0061F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > I meant ad placement, relevent to the search results, not for > results placement. For the record, I'm well aware of the fact > that google does not skew search results for money, like some > search engines, and that was not what I meant to imply. Sorry > if it came off like that. > > What I meant was, I tend to get less search results for a given > set of search terms than I used to get, prior to the advertising > on the right hand side of the results. I attributed that to the > relevency-based search for the paid advertising detracting from > the amount of CPU available that would otherwise be burned giving > me the same number of results I was getting previously; maybe > this is wrong, but regardless of rank order, you would not think > you could lose 4000 results for a particular search phrase in only > 3 months. Either they are indexing less content, or they have > changed their inclusion (*not* rank order!) criteria significantly > some time in the last several months. > > Some people search for themselves; I happen to have three terms > sets that I tend to use to benchmark search engines, and just > noticed the drop-off recently. > > For all I know, it just means they are now obeying the ".robots" > file, and they weren't before... 8-) 8-). Over the past few years, I've slowly been working on building a search engine to my own personal liking. As some of you may know, I'm also writing the one for FreeBSD.org (coming soon). I'd be interested to hear everyone's complaints about current search engines and also if anyone is interested in joining my quest for the ultimate information search engine, shoot me an email.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 6:48:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2F637B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D2843F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a013.otenet.gr [212.205.215.13]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15EmdWx012557; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:48:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15EmdHq072081; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:48:39 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15EZ4Pp043315; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:35:04 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:35:04 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205143504.GC16747@gothmog.gr> References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-02-05 10:00, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > [ snip] > Now some people claim this is worth nothing, I should not get a say > at all since I cant code? On the other hand, any random person with > some programming knowledge but totally lacking social skills, he is > a welcome contributor to the project? No, nope, and not. What is it in this thread that gave the people the idea that someone can be an assh*le and still be accepted with open arms by all the committers and the core team? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 6:50:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C823237B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13405.mail.yahoo.com (web13405.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE18E43FB1 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030205145018.94519.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.249] by web13405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 15:50:18 CET Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:50:18 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: Project status To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20030205045759.L84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm ... The last time I saw an Irix installation CD it included some lines about 4.3BSD UNIX, but on the latest review I read said "For the Unix side of things, IRIX is based on BSD 4.4 ...", see: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1859 There are no UNIXes out there that don't include at least some BSD code, and I'm not talking about old UNIX versions. On both IRIX and Darwin, the graphic side is unrelated to BSD though. cheers, Pedro. --- Jamie Bowden ha scritto: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni > wrote: > > > NetBSD developers would be very welcome to > contribute > > on the lists. Graphic developers are not easy to > find > > in the BSDs, but the IMHO best graphical UNIX-like > > systems right now (MachOS X and IRIX) are based on > BSD > > 4.4. > > I hate to disagree, but Irix is SysV, with some BSD > compatability bits > retained. > > %uname -aR > IRIX64 wraith 6.5 6.5.18m 10151453 IP35 > > This can be found in many of the files on Irix: > > # Copyright (c) 1984 AT&T > # All Rights Reserved > # > # THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE > OF AT&T > # The copyright notice above does not evidence > any > # actual or intended publication of such > source code. > > > And looking around you'll also find: > > > /* Copyright (c) 1990, 1991 UNIX System > Laboratories, Inc. */ > /* Copyright (c) 1984, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, > 1990 AT&T */ > /* All Rights Reserved */ > > /* THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE > OF */ > /* UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. > */ > /* The copyright notice above does not evidence > any */ > /* actual or intended publication of such > source code. */ > > /* > * > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > * PROPRIETARY NOTICE (Combined) > * > * This source code is unpublished proprietary > information > * constituting, or derived under license from > AT&T's UNIX(r) System V. > * In addition, portions of such source code were > derived from Berkeley > * 4.3 BSD under license from the Regents of the > University of > * California. > * > * > * > * Copyright Notice > * > * Notice of copyright on this source code product > does not indicate > * publication. > * > * (c) 1986,1987,1988,1989 Sun Microsystems, > Inc > * (c) 1983,1984,1985,1986,1987,1988,1989 > AT&T. > * All rights reserved. > * > */ > > Taking care of SGIs is how I pay my bills, and while > it's many things, BSD > isn't one of them. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began > to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 7: 0:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABD037B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3206E43F43 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:00:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 08BC09FC; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A3A9E3; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:00:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:00:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: <20030205145018.94519.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030205065548.X84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Hmmm ... > > The last time I saw an Irix installation CD it > included some lines about 4.3BSD UNIX, but on the > latest review I read said "For the Unix side of > things, IRIX is based on BSD 4.4 ...", see: > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1859 They may say it, but they're wrong. I keep /usr/bsd in my path on Irix machines for access to the BSD bits still around, but Irix is very much SysV. > There are no UNIXes out there that don't include at > least some BSD code, and I'm not talking about old > UNIX versions. On both IRIX and Darwin, the graphic > side is unrelated to BSD though. If you read the copyright notices I posted previously, you'll see that they infer that the AT&T licensed code includes some Berkeley code, which is why there's a Berkeley reference in there. I still have an R3000 Indigo here that works, but I don't have a complete set of 4.0.x install media (it's currently running 5.3), or I'd check and see if perhaps 4.x and earlier Irix versions were BSD based, but I don't think so. The writer of the article referenced above was using 6.5.17, and should definately have realized he was on a SysV based Unix. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 7:10:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DAB37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13408.mail.yahoo.com (web13408.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E2D4B43F9B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030205151033.73767.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.249] by web13408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:10:33 CET Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:10:33 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: Project status To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20030205065548.X84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK; I was misguided by the article then, sorry for the mistake. I tried an old version of IRIX and it didn't seem BSD-like so I find it easier to believe you. FWIW, AIX is very much BSD based. I think they use less and in 4.1.x they carried the BSD games in their base system. cheers, Pedro. --- Jamie Bowden ha scritto: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni > wrote: > > > Hmmm ... > > > > The last time I saw an Irix installation CD it > > included some lines about 4.3BSD UNIX, but on the > > latest review I read said "For the Unix side of > > things, IRIX is based on BSD 4.4 ...", see: > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1859 > > They may say it, but they're wrong. I keep /usr/bsd > in my path on Irix > machines for access to the BSD bits still around, > but Irix is very much > SysV. > > > There are no UNIXes out there that don't include > at > > least some BSD code, and I'm not talking about old > > UNIX versions. On both IRIX and Darwin, the > graphic > > side is unrelated to BSD though. > > If you read the copyright notices I posted > previously, you'll see that > they infer that the AT&T licensed code includes some > Berkeley code, which > is why there's a Berkeley reference in there. > > I still have an R3000 Indigo here that works, but I > don't have a complete > set of 4.0.x install media (it's currently running > 5.3), or I'd check and > see if perhaps 4.x and earlier Irix versions were > BSD based, but I don't > think so. The writer of the article referenced > above was using 6.5.17, > and should definately have realized he was on a SysV > based Unix. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began > to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 7:12:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E23F37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B95943F3F; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15FB0P8056124; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:11:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E4129DA.1000906@401.cx> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:12:26 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> <20030205143504.GC16747@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2003-02-05 10:00, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>[ snip] >>Now some people claim this is worth nothing, I should not get a say >>at all since I cant code? On the other hand, any random person with >>some programming knowledge but totally lacking social skills, he is >>a welcome contributor to the project? > > > No, nope, and not. What is it in this thread that gave the people the > idea that someone can be an assh*le and still be accepted with open > arms by all the committers and the core team? I never meant it to sound like I blamed the core team and the developers in particular. My comments were directed to the BSD community as a whole, be it users, administrators or coders. Actually, the fact that Dillon lost his commit bit clearly shows that core does *not* put up with lacking social skills, since that seems to be the reason he was removed. My earlier rant was aimed at those that seem to think that code is the only thing that counts. If you are not one of them, you have no reason to be offended, it was not aimed at you. I apologize if I expressed myself a bit unclear, I was somewhat pissed off when I wrote that email. -- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 7:36: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D7437B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD68443E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h15FZuk07390; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:35:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:35:56 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: GGI (was: Project Status) Message-ID: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030205035930.45235.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > As a short summary some of us want o turn FreeBSD into > a decent desktop by providing high quality graphics > support in the kernel. I don't think this is what's holding back FreeBSD (or Linux) at all. It's an old logical fallacy: Windows has graphics support in the kernel; Windows is successful; so if we have graphics support in the kernel, we'll be successful. XFree86 is doing great, and getting better and better, in my opinion. What's the problem? Speed? I have no problem playing DVDs on FreeBSD or Linux, on an 800 MHz laptop without the benefit of a hardware decoder or accelerated card. Stability? It's rock solid. Features? They're adding new features at a rapid pace -- with recent improvements in freetype and Keith Packard's recent XFT stuff, the font display is probably better than Windows or Mac, and the overall ease of configuration is getting there. With XFT2 you just need to drop a font into your ~/.fonts directory, and XFT2-aware applications can use it. I think the next XFree86 version will also have on-the-fly video mode selection. For the people who say X is bloated, slow, etc: X was around in the 1980s before Microsoft Windows, and it ran quite nicely on ridiculously slow machines. SGI became a graphics powerhouse using X. GGI looks like an interesting toy project (it's been around for a while too). No harm if interested people work for it. But FreeBSD and Linux already have all the infrastructure needed for a good desktop system: people need to work on ease-of-use issues, which is high-level software. For a decent desktop, we need to support and use the efforts of projects like KDE and GNOME, better integrate their system management capabilities with FreeBSD, maybe come up with a better default configuration of these environments as part of the install. Incidentally, one serious missing feature for desktop users, on both FreeBSD and Linux, is packet writing software for UDF file systems (CD-RW). (There are patches for linux.) Is anyone working on that for FreeBSD? What about the other BSDs? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 7:48:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCC937B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from grosbein.pp.ru (D00015.dialonly.kemerovo.su [213.184.66.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9198B43F3F; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:48:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.pp.ru) Received: from grosbein.pp.ru (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grosbein.pp.ru (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15FlwYa001499; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:47:58 +0700 (KRAT) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.pp.ru) Received: (from eugen@localhost) by grosbein.pp.ru (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15FkPQJ001469; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:46:25 +0700 (KRAT) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:46:25 +0700 From: Eugene Grosbein To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: developers@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: 200302050919.h159JiaX086594@grimreaper.grondar.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! That all is gloomy. Matt Dillon helped me and other users many times, he had solved numerous issues including kernel panics, his responces to PRs were quick and qualitative. I have to note, his deal with users was quite polite. Not to mention his skills and contribution to the project. I ask the core to rethink its decision and return commit bits to Matt Dillon. Perhaps, after some period of time and with some kind of conditions, but please do not miss this developer. I always try to make FreeBSD better when I can and Matt Dillon often kindly responded to my problem reports. Eugene Grosbein, EBG4-RIPE, FreeBSD user since 2.2.5-RELEASE, Senior System Administrator of ISP "Svyaz-Service", Russian Federation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 8: 9:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C6037B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDEC43F75 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27889; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:08:51 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205090810.03dea150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 09:08:45 -0700 To: Mark Murray , "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200302050919.h159JiaX086594@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:19 AM 2/5/2003, Mark Murray wrote: >Feature requests, advocacy, bug reports, documentation submession are >just _some_ of the many ways a non-programmer can contribute. And get no say whatsoever in the direction or future of the project. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 8:11:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421B037B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntl.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143F943F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntl.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h15GDim8088304; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:13:44 GMT (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost) by aqua.lan.palfreman.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15GDhZr088301; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:13:43 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:13:43 +0000 (GMT) From: William Palfreman To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: <20030205155953.I283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > XFree86 is doing great, and getting better and better, in my opinion. > What's the problem? I don't think X can be the only way to do it. There has to be something more IMO. On the technical side there is a lot of progres being made with light-emitting polymers, and future very flat, flexible devices aren't necessarily best handled by a mouse and XFree86. Also, given the posibilities of graphical consoles, how it it that I still find them a pain to use and spend almost all of my time on ttyV1? -- W. Palfreman. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 8:14:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6255437B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779D343F79; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15GE7Mw015382; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:14:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15GE74F015381; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:14:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:14:07 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Eugene Grosbein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru>; from eugen@grosbein.pp.ru on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 10:46:25PM +0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 10:46:25PM +0700, Eugene Grosbein wrote: > Hi! > > That all is gloomy. > > Matt Dillon helped me and other users many times, > he had solved numerous issues including kernel panics, > his responces to PRs were quick and qualitative. > I have to note, his deal with users was quite polite. > Not to mention his skills and contribution to the project. > > I ask the core to rethink its decision and return commit bits > to Matt Dillon. Perhaps, after some period of time and with > some kind of conditions, but please do not miss this developer. I suggest you go out and do some more research on the matter. It is not that Matt has not provided help to a lot of us (including your's truly BTW). And I appreciate he helped me, no doubt there. His technical skill is also not what is under debate here. It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit bit before, temporarily in that case. Wilko -- | / o / /_ _ |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 8:48:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A023837B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB7343F93; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:48:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D3E20AF5C4; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:48:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:47:38 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Wilko Bulte Cc: eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-Id: <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=.O,JT(PJQPD(flT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:14:07 +0100 Wilko Bulte wrote: > It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive > behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. > It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit > bit before, temporarily in that case. For certain values of abusive. This wouldn't be a problem for, e.g. the OpenBSD people. -core has set a threshold and that's what this is about, nothing more. If this was OpenBSD we'd be happily throwing stones at each other. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --=.O,JT(PJQPD(flT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QUAunLctrNyFFPERAmg/AKCtyofJbLB88zFzdhc1chi3Y/bfgACeOvzL Nb1cLmkGLLprfAXKY4cMiak= =jEux -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.O,JT(PJQPD(flT-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 8:54:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5046537B405; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F3C43F85; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15GsRMw015730; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:54:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15GsRNT015729; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:54:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:54:27 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Miguel Mendez Cc: eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205175427.A15708@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net>; from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 05:47:38PM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 05:47:38PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:14:07 +0100 > Wilko Bulte wrote: > > > It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive > > behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. > > It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit > > bit before, temporarily in that case. > > For certain values of abusive. This wouldn't be a problem for, e.g. the > OpenBSD people. -core has set a threshold and that's what this is about, > nothing more. If this was OpenBSD we'd be happily throwing stones at each > other. So? Do you prefer the stone throwing or not? Most FreeBSD people appear adverse from stones being deployed this way :) -- | / o / /_ _ |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9: 1: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF4637B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DF143FB1 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from mi.us.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h15H0YM3072528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:00:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Wilko Bulte , Miguel Mendez Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:01:02 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030205175427.A15708@freebie.xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <20030205175427.A15708@freebie.xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200302051201.02183.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.21 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [CC trimmed] On Wednesday 05 February 2003 11:54 am, Wilko Bulte wrote: = On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 05:47:38PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: = > Wilko Bulte wrote: = > > It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive = > > behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. = > > It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit bit = > > before, temporarily in that case. = > For certain values of abusive. This wouldn't be a problem for, e.g. = > the OpenBSD people. -core has set a threshold and that's what this = > is about, nothing more. If this was OpenBSD we'd be happily throwing = > stones at each other. = So? Do you prefer the stone throwing or not? Most FreeBSD people = appear adverse from stones being deployed this way :) There still is, and will be, stone/banana peel/egg/tomato throwing. Miguel's point, I think, was about our maximum tolerated size of the projectiles, and how OpenBSD's limit seems higher to him. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9: 2:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24DD937B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACD743F43; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E2751AF5C4; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:02:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:01:17 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Wilko Bulte Cc: eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-Id: <20030205180117.35b56bc8.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20030205175427.A15708@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030205175427.A15708@freebie.xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=.75)T)Dxj)8yd0n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:54:27 +0100 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > For certain values of abusive. This wouldn't be a problem for, e.g. > > the OpenBSD people. -core has set a threshold and that's what this > > is about, nothing more. If this was OpenBSD we'd be happily throwing > > stones at each other. > > So? Do you prefer the stone throwing or not? Most FreeBSD people > appear adverse from stones being deployed this way :) In an ideal world, I'd have Dillon changing his attitude towards fellow committers. In this world, we'll have to balance how important his productivity vs flamage is. It will be a sad day the day Dillon leaves FreeBSD. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --=.75)T)Dxj)8yd0n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QUNinLctrNyFFPERAi0CAJ9cmM7eaZxWWFvnh2hKO0cG5/BRYgCeP/U+ N4uqnofG8RqhvDpUOxqH8rI= =buGk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.75)T)Dxj)8yd0n-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9: 9:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37FF37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588D043F43 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15H8lOs009128; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:08:48 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15H8bRe009125; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:08:42 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:08:37 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: William Palfreman Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030205155953.I283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Message-ID: <20030205190001.S43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, William Palfreman wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > XFree86 is doing great, and getting better and better, in my opinion. > > What's the problem? > > I don't think X can be the only way to do it. There has to be something > more IMO. On the technical side there is a lot of progres being made > with light-emitting polymers, and future very flat, flexible devices > aren't necessarily best handled by a mouse and XFree86. Also, given the > posibilities of graphical consoles, how it it that I still find them a > pain to use and spend almost all of my time on ttyV1? > Something "more" what? There is no sense in wanting to have something more unless you have concrete things you want/need tobe different. And spending your time on ttyV1 is hardly the problem of the graphics system - you probably just need to look a bit more at various terminal emulators. > -- > W. Palfreman. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9:18:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6734937B405; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B3343F75; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:18:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15HITOs009188; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:18:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15HITwO009185; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:18:29 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:18:29 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030205021623.GP12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030205191305.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > This is a valid viewpoint. I've been wondering for some time how we > could do this. You can contribute other things than code to the > source tree, of course, such as documentation. But I don't see a good > way to include systems administrators (except in exactly that function > within the project, and opportunities there are limited). We've also > had problems with advocacy: some advocates are somewhat extreme, and > we're concerned they're doing the project more harm than good. If you > can come up with some good suggestions, we'd like to see them (at the > risk of Yet Another Bike Shed). > It might be possible to make use of them (at least ones who are sufficently good at scripting and making systems fall over) to advance the regresion and stress test parts, both in creation and having it be regularily run. As they derive direct benefits from it they also have a reason/excuse to spend some time and resources on it > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9:19:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166C437B50E for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578A843F9B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:19:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15HJZMw015898; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:19:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15HJYKY015897; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:19:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:19:34 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: Miguel Mendez , eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205181934.B15866@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030205175427.A15708@freebie.xs4all.nl> <200302051201.02183.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200302051201.02183.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com>; from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 12:01:02PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 12:01:02PM -0500, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > [CC trimmed] > > On Wednesday 05 February 2003 11:54 am, Wilko Bulte wrote: > = On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 05:47:38PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: > = > Wilko Bulte wrote: > = > > It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive > = > > behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. > = > > It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit bit > = > > before, temporarily in that case. > > = > For certain values of abusive. This wouldn't be a problem for, e.g. > = > the OpenBSD people. -core has set a threshold and that's what this > = > is about, nothing more. If this was OpenBSD we'd be happily throwing > = > stones at each other. > > = So? Do you prefer the stone throwing or not? Most FreeBSD people > = appear adverse from stones being deployed this way :) > > There still is, and will be, stone/banana peel/egg/tomato throwing. > Miguel's point, I think, was about our maximum tolerated size of the > projectiles, and how OpenBSD's limit seems higher to him. I think the raison d'etre for the various *BSD camps is (amongst other things) the way people do or do not cooperate/communicate. -- | / o / /_ _ |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9:20:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFA137B407 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A0043F9B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:20:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15HKGOs009201; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:20:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15HKFUr009198; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:20:16 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:20:15 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204193238.0408d9d0@localhost> Message-ID: <20030205191916.C43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:24 PM 2/4/2003, Dave Hayes wrote: > > >A cabal?!?! > > When I was first introduced to FreeBSD, that's what I was told it > was -- by someone who was a member of that "cabal" at the time. ;-) > Yes, and then was a time when FreeBSD had a president, whom we didn't get to elect (or even select) either. But neither fact is really relevant any more > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9:26:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707A437B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from grosbein.pp.ru (D00015.dialonly.kemerovo.su [213.184.66.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1213D43FA7; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:26:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.pp.ru) Received: from grosbein.pp.ru (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grosbein.pp.ru (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15HQcYa001933; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:26:38 +0700 (KRAT) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.pp.ru) Received: (from eugen@localhost) by grosbein.pp.ru (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15HQB7M001920; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:26:11 +0700 (KRAT) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:26:11 +0700 From: Eugene Grosbein To: Wilko Bulte Cc: chat@freebsd.org, developers@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030206002611.A1825@grosbein.pp.ru> References: <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl>; from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 05:14:07PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 05:14:07PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > I ask the core to rethink its decision and return commit bits > > to Matt Dillon. Perhaps, after some period of time and with > > some kind of conditions, but please do not miss this developer. > I suggest you go out and do some more research on the matter. I did before posting. The problem is that http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/CVSROOT/access#rev1.364 does not disclose needed information to a user and that is bad thing. By the way, I believe someone will have to use 'cvs admin' or something to mend this mistake because FreeBSD comminity is paying too high price for it. > It is not that Matt has not provided help to a lot of us (including > your's truly BTW). And I appreciate he helped me, no doubt there. > His technical skill is also not what is under debate here. > > It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive > behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. > It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit > bit before, temporarily in that case. I know, I followed that case is all details that were available for public. I was glad to see that a compromise was found. And I truly hope that a compromise will be found this time. Eugene To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 9:38: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BFD937B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8644543F93; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h15HbrXd081480; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:37:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E414BE7.7060008@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:37:43 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Regression / Testing (was: dillon@'s commit bit..) References: <20030205191305.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > >>This is a valid viewpoint. I've been wondering for some time how we >>could do this. You can contribute other things than code to the >>source tree, of course, such as documentation. But I don't see a good >>way to include systems administrators (except in exactly that function >>within the project, and opportunities there are limited). We've also >>had problems with advocacy: some advocates are somewhat extreme, and >>we're concerned they're doing the project more harm than good. If you >>can come up with some good suggestions, we'd like to see them (at the >>risk of Yet Another Bike Shed). >> > It might be possible to make use of them (at least ones who are sufficently > good at scripting and making systems fall over) to advance the regresion > and stress test parts, both in creation and having it be regularily run. > As they derive direct benefits from it they also have a reason/excuse to > spend some time and resources on it I started this kind of project a while back, and was looking for volunteers. Basically, I have the hardware, power, etc, I just need people to volunteer their time to help me run regression testing on RELEASEs, STABLE, CURRENT, etc. I'm still looking - any takers? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 10: 5:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA7937B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFCD43F75; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:05:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15I5NWK051188; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:25 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15I5KYx051187; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:20 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:20 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Brad Knowles Cc: Robert Watson , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205180520.GA50875@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20030204082531.GA36473@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Brad Knowles! On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 12:19:27AM +0100, you wrote: > > I really don't care how and how much were hurt feeling of any FreeBSD > > developer by any offending actions of Matt, but I do care what he did > > and (hopefully) will do for FreeBSD project. > > Would you be willing to lose every single other programmer > working on FreeBSD, just to keep Matt? If so, then I would encourage > you to fork off MattBSD. > > In reality, we wouldn't really risk losing all the programmers on > FreeBSD, just a significant number of them, and a number of them are > pretty big contributors to the project. When the cost that Matt > represents is larger than the benefit, then it's time for him to go. > > > My only question at this stage is whether or not we have reached > this point. I hope not. Please let me explain: I was really disappointed by dillon@'s commit bit removal and just wanted to know if behavour costs more than professional skills (c) me few minutes ago I'm really sorry if I offended anyone in any way, this post was not intended to offend anyone. P.S. And sorry for all this flame I've started. -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 10:15:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F385B37B407 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (som-267.dhcp.umass.edu [128.119.137.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F6843E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15IGocG053574 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:16:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15IGn2b053573 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:16:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:16:49 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Multi-Function Printer Message-ID: <20030205181649.GA53554@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Our office is looking into multi-function output machines. My colleagues are looking at hp laserjet 4100mpf. We won't have high volume, but we want it to be able to handle heavy stock for brochure covers and 11x17 paper. Having the copying/scanning ability is mostly a convenience, but we feel it's worth it. Except for me, it's a Windows office, so my question is not FreeBSD related, but I'd appreciate any recommendations you may have. Thanks. Take care. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 10:29:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E6137B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABFA43F43 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:29:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15ITnOs009887; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:29:50 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15ITmWM009884; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:29:49 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:29:48 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030205201148.F43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > - KSE ("kernel scheduled entities") is a threading architecture, both > for in-kernel threads and for mapping userland threads onto kernel > threads (which allows splitting one application across multiple > CPUs; our current thread library doesn't). I don't know of any > substantial opposition against KSE. There are some concerns that > the M-on-N model is not really better than the 1-on-1 model, > especially now that Solaris has switched to the latter, and that > KSE is over-engineered and possibly out of the reach of a team of > (relatively) amateur volunteers. Otherwise, complaints regarding > KSE are mostly about how much time it's taking to implement, and > concerns that the KSE developers aren't subjecting their code to > sufficient testing before committing it. Note that I'm neither > confirming or refuting any of these claims, just reporting what > other people are saying about KSE. > the N:M and especially the 1:1 models are also slightly simplified pictures. I think this is also a cyclical development problem - at some point using 1:1 threads is insufficent and/or doesn't give acceptable perfomace so the move to N:M happens. At some point later, kernel based threads are again sufficently perfomant that N:M becomes unnecessary complexity. Linux/*BSD are just a cycle behind Solaris in this area. Ultimately the cycles don't matter, what matters is the perfomance and capabilities you deliver. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 10:41:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011E137B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8410243F9B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gUUF-000098-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:41:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E415A7E.673EAA45@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:39:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Project status References: <20030205045759.L84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48096dd0585617a13999987f7d1a3aed0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > I hate to disagree, but Irix is SysV, with some BSD compatability bits > retained. FWIW: Over 40% of the code in SVR4.02 is BSD-derived. One of the reasons USL settled the USL/UCB and USL/BSDI lawsuits is that UCB countersued for USL removing the UCB copyrights from files. Perhaps SGI never put them back? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 10:51:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1537B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C4B4405C for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:50:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 01BD69F7; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27089B1; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:50:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: <3E415A7E.673EAA45@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030205104513.X84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > I hate to disagree, but Irix is SysV, with some BSD compatability bits > > retained. > > FWIW: Over 40% of the code in SVR4.02 is BSD-derived. One of the > reasons USL settled the USL/UCB and USL/BSDI lawsuits is that UCB > countersued for USL removing the UCB copyrights from files. Perhaps > SGI never put them back? Read it again Terry, the top Copyright notice is AT&T only, but the one below it has the UCB reference in it. The top notice is from inittab (and can be found in all the rc.N/{S|K}NNservice scripts that are derived from original AT&T scripts (and lack Berkeley notice since BSD's init and associated scripts are totally different than SysV, and are not derived). The bottom notice can be found in just about every .h in the /usr/include/ and /usr/include/*/ directories. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 10:59:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D4C37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545FB43F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B3310AF5C4; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:59:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:59:06 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status Message-Id: <20030205195906.10a7a6fa.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20030205201148.F43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20030205201148.F43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ikJ,st=.vKYYzj5C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:29:48 +0200 (EET) Narvi wrote: Hi, > Linux/*BSD are just a cycle behind Solaris in this area. Ultimately > the cycles don't matter, what matters is the perfomance and > capabilities you deliver. Bzzzt. Take your time to study both KSE and nathanw_sa (NetBSD's). Both implement N:M threading models. Also, nobody cares about Loonix :-P Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --ikJ,st=.vKYYzj5C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QV7+nLctrNyFFPERArN3AKCAXxeMpRSrwfHLkxSRYbGx+OgTfgCbBwCG 940wbTIlmgNJBGdxsvqMvXk= =CMs7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikJ,st=.vKYYzj5C-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11: 1:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE08437B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258A243F3F; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (12-232-168-4.client.attbi.com[12.232.168.4]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <200302051901150010082oaqe>; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:01:16 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA97395; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:01:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:01:11 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Wilko Bulte Cc: Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to put their names in public to decide the issue. I think personally that core has acted against the wishes of the majority of committers, but that there is a large group who will go along with what core says, because they believe in the "rules". Nothing I've seen from Matt would be what I consider particularly bad. No death threats or such.. Being called a moron is par for the course in this field and anyone who can't take that, or being accused of whining should go do something else. On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 10:46:25PM +0700, Eugene Grosbein wrote: > > Hi! > > > > That all is gloomy. > > > > Matt Dillon helped me and other users many times, > > he had solved numerous issues including kernel panics, > > his responces to PRs were quick and qualitative. > > I have to note, his deal with users was quite polite. > > Not to mention his skills and contribution to the project. > > > > I ask the core to rethink its decision and return commit bits > > to Matt Dillon. Perhaps, after some period of time and with > > some kind of conditions, but please do not miss this developer. > > I suggest you go out and do some more research on the matter. > > It is not that Matt has not provided help to a lot of us (including > your's truly BTW). And I appreciate he helped me, no doubt there. > His technical skill is also not what is under debate here. > > It is the fact that Matt has a history of repeated abusive > behavior to his fellow committers brought core to this decision. > It might be interesting to know that Matt has lost his commit > bit before, temporarily in that case. > > Wilko > -- > | / o / /_ _ > |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11: 2:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AF737B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EA943F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:02:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gUoW-0002m7-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:02:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E415F72.DDCCE09@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:01:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Project status References: <20030205151033.73767.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a435b63c88da451e6d1cdb25c06c8159f1666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > I was misguided by the article then, sorry for the > mistake. I tried an old version of IRIX and it didn't > seem BSD-like so I find it easier to believe you. You weren't wrong, Pedro. System V is 40% BSD based; therefore any code that is System V-based is also BSD-based. I can state this to a certainty, as someone who has worked for USL. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11: 3:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8820C37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.gnf.org (ns2.gnf.org [63.196.132.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CEE43F43; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gtetlow@gnf.org) Received: from EXCHCLUSTER01.lj.gnf.org (exch01.lj.gnf.org [172.25.10.19]) by ns2.gnf.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h15J3mtk006246; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gtetlow@gnf.org) Received: from roark.gnf.org ([172.25.24.15]) by EXCHCLUSTER01.lj.gnf.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:50 -0800 Received: from roark.gnf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by roark.gnf.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15J3oGj055518; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gtetlow@gnf.org) Received: (from gtetlow@localhost) by roark.gnf.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15J3jot055517; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:45 -0800 From: Gordon Tetlow To: Julian Elischer Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T7mxYSe680VjQnyC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2003 19:03:50.0580 (UTC) FILETIME=[51A3EF40:01C2CD49] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --T7mxYSe680VjQnyC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:01:11AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: >=20 > I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to put > their names in public to decide the issue. > I think personally that core has acted against the wishes of the=20 > majority of committers, but that there is a large group who will go > along with what core says, because they believe in the "rules". >=20 > Nothing I've seen from Matt would be what I consider particularly bad. > No death threats or such.. Being called a moron is par for the course in > this field and anyone who can't take that, or being accused of whining > should go do something else. core has made their decision. When they were elected, you entrusted them to make hard decisions like this. This is not about a popularity contest. Can we please drop this and get on with life? -gordon --T7mxYSe680VjQnyC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QWARRu2t9DV9ZfsRApJxAKCPqg4FEzX4iwUKyUKjnHo02cXoLgCfXFfJ 8J6R/j24AFe5YL05R8C/Pho= =cUap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T7mxYSe680VjQnyC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11: 7:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B38337B425 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A7B43F43 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mobile.pittgoth.com ([192.168.0.5]) by pittgoth.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h15J79fI001007; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:07:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:07:26 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Gordon Tetlow Cc: julian@elischer.org, wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl, eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.org, developers@FreeBSD.org, core@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-Id: <20030205140726.407e150a.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:03:45 -0800 Gordon Tetlow wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:01:11AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to > > put their names in public to decide the issue. > > I think personally that core has acted against the wishes of the > > majority of committers, but that there is a large group who will go > > along with what core says, because they believe in the "rules". > > > > Nothing I've seen from Matt would be what I consider particularly > > bad. No death threats or such.. Being called a moron is par for the > > course in this field and anyone who can't take that, or being > > accused of whining should go do something else. > > core has made their decision. When they were elected, you entrusted > them to make hard decisions like this. This is not about a popularity > contest. Can we please drop this and get on with life? > > -gordon > I swear that an email from Matt came across where he specifically said that he would not come back to FreeBSD? Was I just imagining that or? -- Tom Rhodes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11: 9: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD0F37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911A443FA7; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@freebsd.org) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15J8lYu043055; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:08:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@freebsd.org) To: Julian Elischer Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@freebsd.org, developers@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object From: phk@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:01:11 PST." Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:08:47 +0100 Message-ID: <43054.1044472127@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message , Jul ian Elischer writes: > >I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to put >their names in public to decide the issue. Next time your vote counts in the FreeBSD project is the next core election. If that is too long to wait for you can of course form a new BSD project and get a core vote that way. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:12:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F0237B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBBB43F85; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15JCcMw016819; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:12:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h15JCcuU016814; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:12:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:12:38 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Julian Elischer Cc: Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205201238.A16735@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from julian@elischer.org on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:01:11AM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:01:11AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to put > their names in public to decide the issue. > I think personally that core has acted against the wishes of the > majority of committers, but that there is a large group who will go > along with what core says, because they believe in the "rules". > > Nothing I've seen from Matt would be what I consider particularly bad. Others think differently, and so does core. A core team, which, as you will remember, has been chosen by a vote, and based on the bylaws of the FreeBSD project. It seems that those who think that the bylaws need changing would need to run for the next core election, gather a majority in core, change the bylaws etc. > No death threats or such.. Being called a moron is par for the course in > this field and anyone who can't take that, or being accused of whining > should go do something else. That reasoning can also be applied to those who cannot refrain from abusive language. And don't go down the 'political correctness' path, we have all been there I think. W/ -- | / o / /_ _ |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:13:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E403237B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F87343F75 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15JDKOs010284; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:13:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15JDE8N010280; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:13:20 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:13:14 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Miguel Mendez Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: <20030205195906.10a7a6fa.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20030205211208.K43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:29:48 +0200 (EET) > Narvi wrote: > > Hi, > > > Linux/*BSD are just a cycle behind Solaris in this area. Ultimately > > the cycles don't matter, what matters is the perfomance and > > capabilities you deliver. > > Bzzzt. Take your time to study both KSE and nathanw_sa (NetBSD's). Both > implement N:M threading models. Also, nobody cares about Loonix :-P > Did you actually read the bit I was replying to ? FreeBSD/NetBSD/Linux are moving to a N:M model. Solaris is moving *back* to 1:1 model. > Cheers, > -- > Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net > GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt > EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk > Of course it runs NetBSD! > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:18:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A9337B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609AE43F75 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4DC1E9C0; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADAE97E; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:18:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: <3E415F72.DDCCE09@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030205111439.N84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > I was misguided by the article then, sorry for the > > mistake. I tried an old version of IRIX and it didn't > > seem BSD-like so I find it easier to believe you. > > You weren't wrong, Pedro. System V is 40% BSD based; therefore > any code that is System V-based is also BSD-based. > > I can state this to a certainty, as someone who has worked for > USL. BSD derived doesn't equal BSD, Terry, and you know it. SysV may have BSD code in some of its internals, but it's a whole different critter from a user and administrative standpoint. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:25:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4173437B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670F143E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gVAa-0006Rq-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4164CA.3B1E7C30@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:23:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) References: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47d513920919845f27c375b89476ed18f3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > As a short summary some of us want o turn FreeBSD into > > a decent desktop by providing high quality graphics > > support in the kernel. > > I don't think this is what's holding back FreeBSD (or Linux) at all. > It's an old logical fallacy: Windows has graphics support in the > kernel; Windows is successful; so if we have graphics support in the > kernel, we'll be successful. Actually, the main reason for it is to provide graphics support for programs, including X, so that you don't have to carry device driver parts around in user space. The secondary reason for it is so that when you are running X, and your kernel panics, the console gets properly dropped into the debugger, instead of leaving you screwed. The tertiary reason is so that you don't have to run graphics programs as root, in order for their user space device drivers to be able to access the hardware, and is a security issue. "Being like Windows" is far from people's minds, when they talk about GGI. In fact, GGI is very *unlike* Windows, in that the rendering primitives *remain* in user space. > XFree86 is doing great, and getting better and better, in my opinion. > What's the problem? Speed? Automated recognition of the hardware, or fallback, so that a minimum set of graphics operates by default, on all instances. This is a minimal requirement for desktop support. Basically, it boils down to "lack of productization". GGI removes one of these barriers; it does not claim to remove them all. > They're adding new features at a rapid pace -- with recent > improvements in freetype and Keith Packard's recent XFT stuff, the > font display is probably better than Windows or Mac, and the overall > ease of configuration is getting there. With XFT2 you just need to > drop a font into your ~/.fonts directory, and XFT2-aware applications > can use it. X has forever suffered from fixed cell rendering. GGI will not fix this; changing X would. Several companies have done this in the past: NeXT, with NeXTStep, Sony with NeWS, etc. It is no mistake that these people are tightly tied to Adobe, and to Apple, participated in Taligent, and helped write the Unicode standard, such that local use spaces were not interspersed, making it difficult for fixed-cell rendering systems like X to support ligatured scripts, like Tamil, Devengarl, Hebrew, and Arabic. > For the people who say X is bloated, slow, etc: X was around in the > 1980s before Microsoft Windows, and it ran quite nicely on > ridiculously slow machines. SGI became a graphics powerhouse using X. X *is* bloated. Consider "virtual desktops", where there are VNC or similar clients with "views" onto your desktop, which runs *forever* on a hosted service platform, somewhere, and never shuts down. How many instances of this can you run on a single hosting platform, before you run out of RAM? Windows isn't much better. What has to happen is that the display and rendering function need to be divided, and whatever can be shoved into the display portion, needs to be shoved into the display portion, to increas the number of instances of hosted platforms that can be run simultaneously. Who *cares* if the thing on your desk is a piece of crap, or the latest and greatest, as long as the platform your applications are actually running on isn't? > GGI looks like an interesting toy project (it's been around for a > while too). In fact, it is one of the three major projects over which the Linux project almost forked. The fork was only avoided when Linus backed down from his claim that he would "never integrate GGI into the official Linux code base". > For a decent desktop, we need to support and use the efforts of > projects like KDE and GNOME, better integrate their system management > capabilities with FreeBSD, maybe come up with a better default > configuration of these environments as part of the install. No, actually. These are just "look and feel" and applications interoperability platforms. As soon as they have standardized themes use between them, they will become commodity, and whichever one the programmers like more, probably on the basis of documentation and sample code, will win. In fact, the "look and feel" *should* live in the rendering engine, and not in the application, and the rendering engine *should* live with the display device. This offloads more work from the server running the applications, enabling it to handle a higher load, *AND* it standardizes "look and feel" for all applications which use a given display. Macintosh had this right from day 1, though they failed to seperate and standardize the communications channel from the application server to the display server. > Incidentally, one serious missing feature for desktop users, on both > FreeBSD and Linux, is packet writing software for UDF file systems > (CD-RW). (There are patches for linux.) Is anyone working on that > for FreeBSD? What about the other BSDs? There is commercial code for FreeBSD. It is the "pro" version of one of the programs whose free version is already in ports. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:26:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B2F37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690D043E4A; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:26:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org (12-232-168-4.client.attbi.com[12.232.168.4]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <20030205192614053003loare>; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:26:15 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA97681; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:26:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:26:12 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Gordon Tetlow Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:01:11AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to put > > their names in public to decide the issue. > > I think personally that core has acted against the wishes of the > > majority of committers, but that there is a large group who will go > > along with what core says, because they believe in the "rules". > > > > Nothing I've seen from Matt would be what I consider particularly bad. > > No death threats or such.. Being called a moron is par for the course in > > this field and anyone who can't take that, or being accused of whining > > should go do something else. > > core has made their decision. When they were elected, you entrusted them > to make hard decisions like this. This is not about a popularity contest. > Can we please drop this and get on with life? Dropping this is akin to dropping FreeBSD as a lost cause. > > -gordon > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12: 3:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0988037B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1294943FAF; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:03:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lsica29@earthlink.net) Received: from [67.98.154.9] (helo=earthlink.net) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gVlP-00078o-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:03:19 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:03:21 -0500 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Regression / Testing (was: dillon@'s commit bit..) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Narvi , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Eric Anderson From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <3E414BE7.7060008@centtech.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 12:37 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: > Narvi wrote: >> On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> This is a valid viewpoint. I've been wondering for some time how we >>> could do this. You can contribute other things than code to the >>> source tree, of course, such as documentation. But I don't see a >>> good >>> way to include systems administrators (except in exactly that >>> function >>> within the project, and opportunities there are limited). We've also >>> had problems with advocacy: some advocates are somewhat extreme, and >>> we're concerned they're doing the project more harm than good. If >>> you >>> can come up with some good suggestions, we'd like to see them (at the >>> risk of Yet Another Bike Shed). >>> >> It might be possible to make use of them (at least ones who are >> sufficently >> good at scripting and making systems fall over) to advance the >> regresion >> and stress test parts, both in creation and having it be regularily >> run. >> As they derive direct benefits from it they also have a reason/excuse >> to >> spend some time and resources on it > > I started this kind of project a while back, and was looking for > volunteers. Basically, I have the hardware, power, etc, I just need > people to volunteer their time to help me run regression testing on > RELEASEs, STABLE, CURRENT, etc. > What exactly were you looking for, i have hardware that i am no longer using that i can donate to the task possibly. As well as some time. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12: 3:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052FA37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AB943E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:03:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gVlq-0005fZ-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:03:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3E416DD0.1A31A0E1@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:02:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Project status References: <20030205104513.X84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4df855c95848657d55ef52ee858dee2793ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > I hate to disagree, but Irix is SysV, with some BSD compatability bits > > > retained. > > > > FWIW: Over 40% of the code in SVR4.02 is BSD-derived. One of the > > reasons USL settled the USL/UCB and USL/BSDI lawsuits is that UCB > > countersued for USL removing the UCB copyrights from files. Perhaps > > SGI never put them back? > > Read it again Terry, the top Copyright notice is AT&T only, but the one > below it has the UCB reference in it. The top notice is from inittab (and > can be found in all the rc.N/{S|K}NNservice scripts that are derived from > original AT&T scripts (and lack Berkeley notice since BSD's init and > associated scripts are totally different than SysV, and are not derived). > The bottom notice can be found in just about every .h in the /usr/include/ > and /usr/include/*/ directories. Your implication in the statement "Irix is SysV, with some BSD compatability bits retained" is that System V and BSD are seperate entities, and that therefore Irix is not BSD-derived code. My statement is merely a refutation of that. System V is BSD derived code. Irix is System V derived code. Ergo, Irix is BSD derived code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:11:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B144637B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13406.mail.yahoo.com (web13406.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 59B3443F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030205201124.27440.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.11] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:11:24 CET Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:11:24 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Rahul Siddharthan ha scritto: > ... > > I don't think this is what's holding back FreeBSD > (or Linux) at all. > It's an old logical fallacy: Windows has graphics > support in the > kernel; Windows is successful; so if we have > graphics support in the > kernel, we'll be successful. > We are not falling in that nonsense :). You might want to look at Jammes Simmon's comment (on the Linux kernel traffic) about how Linux has failed in the embedded and desktop markets. I think we need something light that can provide graphics without all the complications while configuring and setting X. Eventually we would like to have a graphical installation too and Tektronix (yucks) emulation ...why not. cheers, Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:12: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6740837B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CC143F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:11:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gVtk-00078D-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:11:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3E416FB9.E9BC7026@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:10:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Project status References: <20030205111439.N84870-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4df855c95848657d5ebf82723b174d96c548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > I was misguided by the article then, sorry for the > > > mistake. I tried an old version of IRIX and it didn't > > > seem BSD-like so I find it easier to believe you. > > > > You weren't wrong, Pedro. System V is 40% BSD based; therefore > > any code that is System V-based is also BSD-based. > > > > I can state this to a certainty, as someone who has worked for > > USL. > > BSD derived doesn't equal BSD, Terry, and you know it. SysV may have BSD > code in some of its internals, but it's a whole different critter from a > user and administrative standpoint. I never said that it wasn't administratively different. Don't try to twist what I said into something else. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:16:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E68B37B406 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from repulse.cnchost.com (repulse.concentric.net [207.155.248.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AEB43F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by repulse.cnchost.com id PAA26626; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:16:34 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.15] Message-ID: <200302052016.PAA26626@repulse.cnchost.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:23:54 PST." <3E4164CA.3B1E7C30@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:16:24 -0800 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > X has forever suffered from fixed cell rendering. GGI will not fix > this; changing X would. Several companies have done this in the > past: NeXT, with NeXTStep, Sony with NeWS, etc. Terry, your memory needs some sort of ECC. It was Sun who did NeWS (Network extensible Window System). SGI too picked it up for a while. IIRC Sony had a machine called News (with whatever cApItaLization) but that is a horse of a different color. If by fixed cell rendering you mean one-to-one mapping between a character and a glyph (grpahical shape) I agree. The situation with Indic scripts is considerably more complex where multiple characters can map to a single glyph, where there are many more glyphs than characters, the glyph of a char depends on the position of the char in a word and so on. But without kernel based graphics support I don't see any hope of getting truly first class support for Indic scripts. > > ridiculously slow machines. SGI became a graphics powerhouse using X. IIRC SGI used NeWS before X but I am not 100% certain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:33:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EED137B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51743F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h15KXM173617; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302052033.h15KXM173617@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:33:17 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Rodney King is often quoted as asking "Can't we all just get along?". > The answer is "No, we can't. There is no way to make everyone happy > at the same time. Sorry, I don't buy this. Perhaps you cannot force happiness on a person who doesn't want it, but it is theoretically possible that everyone can make the enlightened decision to be happy at the same time. > There is no four-color mapping theorem for conflict avoidance". To use mathematics to attempt to fool others into buying into a a defined state of misery for any group of people is...downright evil. Mind explaining this statement? Perhaps I have you wrong. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Trust in individuals, not organizations. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:38:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD0437B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EF143F75 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h15KcCrJ025617 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9URZN00.9H2; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:38:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:38:11 -0500 Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Dave Hayes From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <200302052033.h15KXM173617@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 03:33 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: >> Rodney King is often quoted as asking "Can't we all just get along?". >> The answer is "No, we can't. There is no way to make everyone happy >> at the same time. > > Sorry, I don't buy this. Perhaps you cannot force happiness on a > person who doesn't want it, but it is theoretically possible that > everyone can make the enlightened decision to be happy at the same > time. > theory does not equal reality though in this case. Having everyone happy at the same time would mean that everyone's personal life would need to be perfect for that moment in time, and since we all have problems, issues and assorted "stuff".... I mean some of us have more issues than time/life. Some have so much stuff they need to buy a new house just to fit their old stuff so they can get new stuff... I hope you see the trend here.... ;) - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkF2NueV8VtPCL3dEQIf4QCgiwncIbYkeq8SZgvldFb9GKN1zNgAn15v NgA4AUiZTzZF5PANW8R0o435 =xzPn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:40:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF97F37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF40843E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h15Ke3Xd093311; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:40:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E41769A.8060006@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:39:54 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Sica Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Regression / Testing (was: dillon@'s commit bit..) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 12:37 PM, Eric Anderson wrote: > [.snip!.] >> I started this kind of project a while back, and was looking for >> volunteers. Basically, I have the hardware, power, etc, I just need >> people to volunteer their time to help me run regression testing on >> RELEASEs, STABLE, CURRENT, etc. >> > > What exactly were you looking for, i have hardware that i am no longer > using that i can donate to the task possibly. As well as some time. > > --Larry Basically, anything that will run FreeBSD 4-STABLE or 5.x. I'm really need peoples time and effort. I'd like to automate a lot of it, but some of it will be just good old fashioned hammering away on the OS trying to break stuff, etc. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:40:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C598C37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from histidine.utmb.edu (histidine.utmb.edu [129.109.59.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3435643F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bdodson@scms.utmb.EDU) Received: from histidine.utmb.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by histidine.utmb.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15KdVZV000327; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:39:34 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bdodson@histidine.utmb.edu) Message-Id: <200302052039.h15KdVZV000327@histidine.utmb.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:39:31 -0600 (CST) From: "M. L. Dodson" Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) To: bakul@bitblocks.com Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, rsidd@online.fr, giffunip@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200302052016.PAA26626@repulse.cnchost.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Feb, Bakul Shah wrote: >> X has forever suffered from fixed cell rendering. GGI will not fix >> this; changing X would. Several companies have done this in the >> past: NeXT, with NeXTStep, Sony with NeWS, etc. > > Terry, your memory needs some sort of ECC. It was Sun who > did NeWS (Network extensible Window System). SGI too picked > it up for a while. IIRC Sony had a machine called News (with > whatever cApItaLization) but that is a horse of a different > color. > Yes. > If by fixed cell rendering you mean one-to-one mapping > between a character and a glyph (grpahical shape) I agree. > The situation with Indic scripts is considerably more complex > where multiple characters can map to a single glyph, where > there are many more glyphs than characters, the glyph of a > char depends on the position of the char in a word and so on. > But without kernel based graphics support I don't see any > hope of getting truly first class support for Indic scripts. > >> > ridiculously slow machines. SGI became a graphics powerhouse using X. > > IIRC SGI used NeWS before X but I am not 100% certain. > Yes. But early on, SGI hot rodded X with very good drivers for their proprietary graphics hardware pipelines and with very good 3D drivers. Anyone remember 4Dwm and GL (_not_ OpenGL)? They got 3D rendering performance reasonably comparable to OpenGL on today's Intel machines with processors roughly comparable to a P5-166. So saying SGI used X is somewhat misleading, sort of like saying Michael Schumacher drives a car for a living. M. L. Dodson -- M. L. Dodson bdodson@scms.utmb.edu 409-772-2178 FAX: 409-772-1790 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:42:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A945137B48C for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03BD43FA7 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:42:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15KgLja098777; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:42:21 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h15KgKmC098776; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:42:20 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15KcYaX093312; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:38:34 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302052038.h15KcYaX093312@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:02:24 PST." <3E416DD0.1A31A0E1@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:38:33 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > My statement is merely a refutation of that. > > System V is BSD derived code. Irix is System V derived code. Ergo, > Irix is BSD derived code. Bollocks. SysV begat BSD. SysV later used some BSD extensions. SysV then begat Irix. Therefore Irix has some BSD derived code. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:43: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0976937B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B22243E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:43:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15KPtOs010845; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:25:59 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15KPrjm010842; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:25:54 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:25:53 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030205201124.27440.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030205222453.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > --- Rahul Siddharthan ha scritto: > > > ... > > > > I don't think this is what's holding back FreeBSD > > (or Linux) at all. > > It's an old logical fallacy: Windows has graphics > > support in the > > kernel; Windows is successful; so if we have > > graphics support in the > > kernel, we'll be successful. > > > We are not falling in that nonsense :). You might want > to look at Jammes Simmon's comment (on the Linux > kernel traffic) about how Linux has failed in the > embedded and desktop markets. > Linux on Desktop has failed? On the contrary, Linux on Desktop has never been doing better and is in a major upswing. > > cheers, > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:47:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A2037B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F6C43F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:47:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gWQw-0005Wy-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:46:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4177B9.78985E43@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:44:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bakul Shah Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) References: <200302052016.PAA26626@repulse.cnchost.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b40e738d3935534cfe70043505a90772667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bakul Shah wrote: > > X has forever suffered from fixed cell rendering. GGI will not fix > > this; changing X would. Several companies have done this in the > > past: NeXT, with NeXTStep, Sony with NeWS, etc. > > Terry, your memory needs some sort of ECC. It was Sun who > did NeWS (Network extensible Window System). SGI too picked > it up for a while. IIRC Sony had a machine called News (with > whatever cApItaLization) but that is a horse of a different > color. It was a dual processor Motorolla box. I had one for a while to do some XPG/4 localization on some software. 8-). It had Sun's NeWS on it, and it has the same capitalization in its name. FWIW, I've never seen a box actually running NeWS, except for the one from Sony. > If by fixed cell rendering you mean one-to-one mapping > between a character and a glyph (grpahical shape) I agree. > The situation with Indic scripts is considerably more complex > where multiple characters can map to a single glyph, where > there are many more glyphs than characters, the glyph of a > char depends on the position of the char in a word and so on. > But without kernel based graphics support I don't see any > hope of getting truly first class support for Indic scripts. Exactly. That alone should justify a GGI. That, and console support for Kanji, Hangul, and other ideogrammatic languages. We'll also need it to run forts of Goa'uld software. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:54:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827DB37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C5C43FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h15KsAo0001904; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h15KsA9e001903; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:54:10 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Narvi Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: N:M vs. 1:1 threading (was: Re: Project status) Message-ID: <20030205205410.GA1825@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Narvi , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030205201148.F43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205201148.F43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Narvi : > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > - KSE ("kernel scheduled entities") is a threading architecture, both > > for in-kernel threads and for mapping userland threads onto kernel > > threads (which allows splitting one application across multiple > > CPUs; our current thread library doesn't). I don't know of any > > substantial opposition against KSE. There are some concerns that > > the M-on-N model is not really better than the 1-on-1 model, > > especially now that Solaris has switched to the latter, and that > > KSE is over-engineered and possibly out of the reach of a team of > > (relatively) amateur volunteers. Otherwise, complaints regarding > > KSE are mostly about how much time it's taking to implement, and > > concerns that the KSE developers aren't subjecting their code to > > sufficient testing before committing it. Note that I'm neither > > confirming or refuting any of these claims, just reporting what > > other people are saying about KSE. > > > > the N:M and especially the 1:1 models are also slightly simplified > pictures. I think this is also a cyclical development problem - at some > point using 1:1 threads is insufficent and/or doesn't give acceptable > perfomace so the move to N:M happens. At some point later, kernel based > threads are again sufficently perfomant that N:M becomes unnecessary > complexity. > > Linux/*BSD are just a cycle behind Solaris in this area. Ultimately the > cycles don't matter, what matters is the perfomance and capabilities you > deliver. Actually, in the case of Solaris, bugs are what matter. After all of these years, they never ironed all of the nits out of the LWP implementation, but their 1:1 threading implementation just works, and has no outstanding problem reports. Maybe FreeBSD will have the same problems. But from a performance point of view, you can get much cheaper threads, with fewer protection boundary crossings and cheaper context switches, with a UTS. SA happens to be a very nice abstraction for getting it right (LWPs that really are /light/) and hopefully that is reflected in what we will eventually get. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:57:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EFC37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CB643F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h15Kv9173929; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:57:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302052057.h15Kv9173929@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Larry Sica Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:57:04 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica writes: > On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 03:33 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >>> Rodney King is often quoted as asking "Can't we all just get along?". >>> The answer is "No, we can't. There is no way to make everyone happy >>> at the same time. >> >> Sorry, I don't buy this. Perhaps you cannot force happiness on a >> person who doesn't want it, but it is theoretically possible that >> everyone can make the enlightened decision to be happy at the same >> time. >> > theory does not equal reality though in this case. That doesn't change the possibility. > Having everyone happy at the same time would mean that everyone's > personal life would need to be perfect for that moment in time, and > since we all have problems, issues and assorted "stuff".... Therein lies the assumptions. You assume "happiness" == "personal life being perfect". Perhaps that is not true? > I mean some of us have more issues than time/life. Some have so much > stuff they need to buy a new house just to fit their old stuff so they > can get new stuff... At the risk of appearing metaphysical, I'm not so sure that happiness is directly related to material achievements. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< A poor man shames us all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13: 2:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E840A37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6515543F43 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:02:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gWgn-0002Ca-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:02:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3E417B83.6E29E1B7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:00:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status References: <200302052038.h15KcYaX093312@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b40e738d3935534cc076dcbc4438badf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > My statement is merely a refutation of that. > > > > System V is BSD derived code. Irix is System V derived code. Ergo, > > Irix is BSD derived code. > > Bollocks. > > SysV begat BSD. v6 UNIX begat BSD. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:11:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8FF37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.com.tw (135.0.30.61.isp.tfn.net.tw [61.30.0.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEBB43FE5 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:11:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from conychangkimo@yahoo.com.tw) From: jerry@FreeBSD.ORG To: µ¹»{¯u¥´«÷ªºªB¤Í@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ¸gÀ礧¯«ªº¯µ±K Reply-To: conychangkimo@yahoo.com.tw Date: 06 Feb 2003 05:31:39 +0800 Organization: Foobar Inc. X-Mailer: Gammadyne Mailer x-delete-me: 1 (this tells Gammadyne's server to delete the message) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20030205211140.3EEBB43FE5@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¦L¶r¾÷

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:12:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD4F37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ACE743F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h15LBa174127; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:11:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302052111.h15LBa174127@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mark Murray , "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Relevance of steering (was Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:11:31 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 02:19 AM 2/5/2003, Mark Murray wrote: >> Feature requests, advocacy, bug reports, documentation submession are >> just _some_ of the many ways a non-programmer can contribute. > And get no say whatsoever in the direction or future of the project. Is this really important? I thought the point of any open source operating system was to allow people with different ideas of direction to all co-exist under the same banner. Thus, if you want a project to go a different way, you come up with the parts and pieces necessary to make the project go that way. Perhaps others help you. Then you have the choice of turning around and submitting that to -core or whomever to see if it gets included. If not, that's their loss, and onward you go. This implies that, if you don't like the direction, you either a) change it for yourself, b) live with it, or c) find another place to be. Given the preceeding mindset, I'm not sure I understand why a formal "say" in the direction or future of FreeBSD is important. Can you please enlighten me? ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Ask the American public if they want an FBI Wiretax and they'll say 'no.' If you ask them do they want a feature on their phone that helps the FBI find their missing child they'll say, 'Yes.'" - FBI Directory Louis Freeh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:18:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE5337B406 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB8A43FEC for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15LHYja099144; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:17:34 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h15LHY7k099143; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:17:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15LDxaX093877; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:13:59 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302052113.h15LDxaX093877@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:00:51 PST." <3E417B83.6E29E1B7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:13:58 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Mark Murray wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > My statement is merely a refutation of that. > > > > > > System V is BSD derived code. Irix is System V derived code. Ergo, > > > Irix is BSD derived code. > > > > Bollocks. > > > > SysV begat BSD. > > v6 UNIX begat BSD. Maybe. V5-V7 - somewhere in there. SysV is NOT BSD-derived. It has _some_ BSD code in it. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:23:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2140B37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD76F43FA7 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h15LNHrJ011258 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9UU2S00.II9; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:23:16 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:23:16 -0500 Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Dave Hayes From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <200302052057.h15Kv9173929@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Message-Id: <0A935F9D-3950-11D7-A90E-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 03:57 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: > Larry Sica writes: >> On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 03:33 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: >>> Terry Lambert writes: >>>> Rodney King is often quoted as asking "Can't we all just get >>>> along?". >>>> The answer is "No, we can't. There is no way to make everyone happy >>>> at the same time. >>> >>> Sorry, I don't buy this. Perhaps you cannot force happiness on a >>> person who doesn't want it, but it is theoretically possible that >>> everyone can make the enlightened decision to be happy at the same >>> time. >>> >> theory does not equal reality though in this case. > > That doesn't change the possibility. > >> Having everyone happy at the same time would mean that everyone's >> personal life would need to be perfect for that moment in time, and >> since we all have problems, issues and assorted "stuff".... > > Therein lies the assumptions. You assume "happiness" == "personal > life being perfect". Perhaps that is not true? > I was leading up to a joke but...if one isn't happy with themselves and their lives how can they be truly happy with anything? >> I mean some of us have more issues than time/life. Some have so much >> stuff they need to buy a new house just to fit their old stuff so they >> can get new stuff... > > At the risk of appearing metaphysical, I'm not so sure that happiness > is directly related to material achievements. Does no one remember george carlin? I was making a joke... - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkGAx+eV8VtPCL3dEQKQVgCg6DD2H+87ZHogNj52T3QxiCsgvZsAnjjd 5UqzZYbE7YrnpdAL5e+pL5gU =raxd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:30:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55E237B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13406.mail.yahoo.com (web13406.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 88E1B43F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:30:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030205213021.42357.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.229] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 22:30:21 CET Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:30:21 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) To: Narvi Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205222453.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Narvi ha scritto: > ... > > Linux on Desktop has failed? On the contrary, Linux > on Desktop has never > been doing better and is in a major upswing. > It has never been better cause it has never been there. You really don't like homework, do you? ;) http://kt.zork.net/kernel-traffic/latest.html#1 cheers, Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:32:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032B737B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8103043F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:32:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gX9h-0006Kf-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:32:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E41827B.C0FE1C5C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:30:35 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) References: <200302052057.h15Kv9173929@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b2b7264787566331543866eaca0f6611a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Larry Sica writes: > > On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 03:33 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: > >> Terry Lambert writes: > >>> Rodney King is often quoted as asking "Can't we all just get along?". > >>> The answer is "No, we can't. There is no way to make everyone happy > >>> at the same time. > >> > >> Sorry, I don't buy this. Perhaps you cannot force happiness on a > >> person who doesn't want it, but it is theoretically possible that > >> everyone can make the enlightened decision to be happy at the same > >> time. > >> > > theory does not equal reality though in this case. > > That doesn't change the possibility. David is one of those guys who will not be happy unless he is arguing with someone who is not happy to be arguing with him. He's a syllogistic proof on legs of your point. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:33: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23B37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E28843F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15LWsOs011309; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:32:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15LWk4F011306; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:32:50 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:32:46 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: David Schultz Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Subject: Re: N:M vs. 1:1 threading (was: Re: Project status) In-Reply-To: <20030205205410.GA1825@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Message-ID: <20030205231546.U43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Narvi : > > > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > > - KSE ("kernel scheduled entities") is a threading architecture, both > > > for in-kernel threads and for mapping userland threads onto kernel > > > threads (which allows splitting one application across multiple > > > CPUs; our current thread library doesn't). I don't know of any > > > substantial opposition against KSE. There are some concerns that > > > the M-on-N model is not really better than the 1-on-1 model, > > > especially now that Solaris has switched to the latter, and that > > > KSE is over-engineered and possibly out of the reach of a team of > > > (relatively) amateur volunteers. Otherwise, complaints regarding > > > KSE are mostly about how much time it's taking to implement, and > > > concerns that the KSE developers aren't subjecting their code to > > > sufficient testing before committing it. Note that I'm neither > > > confirming or refuting any of these claims, just reporting what > > > other people are saying about KSE. > > > > > > > the N:M and especially the 1:1 models are also slightly simplified > > pictures. I think this is also a cyclical development problem - at some > > point using 1:1 threads is insufficent and/or doesn't give acceptable > > perfomace so the move to N:M happens. At some point later, kernel based > > threads are again sufficently perfomant that N:M becomes unnecessary > > complexity. > > > > Linux/*BSD are just a cycle behind Solaris in this area. Ultimately the > > cycles don't matter, what matters is the perfomance and capabilities you > > deliver. > > Actually, in the case of Solaris, bugs are what matter. After all > of these years, they never ironed all of the nits out of the LWP > implementation, but their 1:1 threading implementation just works, LWP-s *are* the M part in N:M, and the threads in the 1:1 case. The 1:1 case really just makes sure the N is never larger than M by assigning all threads a LWP (all threads a bound threads). > and has no outstanding problem reports. Maybe FreeBSD will have > the same problems. But from a performance point of view, you can > get much cheaper threads, with fewer protection boundary crossings > and cheaper context switches, with a UTS. SA happens to be a very > nice abstraction for getting it right (LWPs that really are > /light/) and hopefully that is reflected in what we will > eventually get. > Like I said - its a perfomace trade-off 8-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:53:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA98C37B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB4843FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h15LrK174652; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302052153.h15LrK174652@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:53:15 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > David is one of those guys who will not be happy unless he is > arguing with someone who is not happy to be arguing with him. You are, as usual, in error. My happiness has nothing to do with anyone outside of me. Usually when someone is not happy in an argument, it means they aren't being thought of as "right". ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:55:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71D537B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584AE43F43 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:55:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gXWD-0002rH-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:55:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4187D7.26437309@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:53:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status References: <200302052113.h15LDxaX093877@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d0ce8e152f5e28c46848b777f78f11bd387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > SysV is NOT BSD-derived. It has _some_ BSD code in it. http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d042.htm DERIVATIVE WORK - A work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a 'derivative work'. 17 U.S.C. See also: http://www.pbwt.com/Attorney/files/ravicher_1.pdf If we accept your idea that System V UNIX is not a derivative work of BSD UNIX, the reductio ad absurdum of that is that the GNU Public License is unenforcible. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:56:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 8C85937B406; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:56:22 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Cc: Daniel O'Connor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205155622.A99519@FreeBSD.org> References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx>; from listsub@401.cx on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 10:00:38AM +0100 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg [ Data: 2003-02-05 ] [ Subjecte: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object ] > [snipped] So write some documentation, run an advocacy site, do something which is directly giving back to the community, and don't do it thinking that you have anything coming. You don't, I don't, period. However since I happen to actively work ON FreeBSD and INSIDE the project, I get to say how internal issues are handled. I can't help but think most of the users in the world would vote for jkh for some lame-ass popularity reason and go around like "I HELPED JORDAN K. HUBBARD CEO OF FREEBSD TO WIN THE CORE TEAM BACK FOR DILLON" or such. You have to get into the system, if you want the sort of influence people are talking about. Submit bug reports. Learn how to fix simple things. Or just fix documentation. It's appreciated. But don't turn into [name omitted] and run around doing things for the @FreeBSD.org address. You gotta actually want to help, to be allowed to do things on your own. Or to help. If you're just fucking around for fame and glory then who gives a shit about you anyway? -- Juli Mallett AIM: BSDFlata -- IRC: juli on EFnet OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 13:57:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id C77D737B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:57:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:57:19 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: Mark Murray , Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205155719.B99519@FreeBSD.org> References: <200302050919.h159JiaX086594@grimreaper.grondar.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205090810.03dea150@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205090810.03dea150@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 09:08:45AM -0700 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Brett Glass [ Data: 2003-02-05 ] [ Subjecte: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object ] > At 02:19 AM 2/5/2003, Mark Murray wrote: > > >Feature requests, advocacy, bug reports, documentation submession are > >just _some_ of the many ways a non-programmer can contribute. > > And get no say whatsoever in the direction or future of the project. We have a lot of documentation-only committers. Some even go on to work on source. Hell, my friend Tom Rhodes ran for core in the last election, for a while, and at the time he was only a documentation and advocacy person. -- Juli Mallett AIM: BSDFlata -- IRC: juli on EFnet OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14: 0:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7497437B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-87.apple.com [17.250.248.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3677A43FC3 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:00:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h15M0og7015181 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9UVTD00.JL8; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:00:49 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:00:47 -0500 Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Dave Hayes From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <200302052153.h15LrK174652@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Message-Id: <47F30C01-3955-11D7-A90E-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 04:53 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: >> David is one of those guys who will not be happy unless he is >> arguing with someone who is not happy to be arguing with him. > > You are, as usual, in error. My happiness has nothing to do with > anyone outside of me. But you can be made happy by the actions of others...so does that mean ALL happiness comes from within and therefore if one cannot be happy inside then then not everyone can always be happy at the same moment in time? AND FURTHERMORE i make a motion to adjourn this thread as i am approaching a non-happy moment.. I just ran out of pistachios... > --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkGJk+eV8VtPCL3dEQKYjgCg3BQb1sCX8oLrUbc6DzSMkj/MMq4AoJKz iKS2+6/YGgNECvePQnSXh75m =K5AE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14: 1: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 5B01B37B405; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:01:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:01:02 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: Andrew Boothman Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205160102.C99519@FreeBSD.org> References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E406467.8020500@cream.org>; from andrew@cream.org on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 01:09:59AM +0000 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Andrew Boothman [ Data: 2003-02-04 ] [ Subjecte: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object ] > I think Matt > Dillon made major contributions, it saddens me to see him leave and I > sincerely want to see him return to the project as a team-player and as > a contributor. Personally, I liked him best in his appearence on Fishing with John, and I'd love for the show to return, and to have him back on it, even years later. -- Juli Mallett AIM: BSDFlata -- IRC: juli on EFnet OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14: 3: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 517B837B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:03:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:03:05 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: Andrew Boothman Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205160305.D99519@FreeBSD.org> References: <200302041944.h14JiSaX076743@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E406467.8020500@cream.org> <3E4071F4.7090007@cream.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E4071F4.7090007@cream.org>; from andrew@cream.org on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 02:07:48AM +0000 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Andrew Boothman [ Data: 2003-02-04 ] [ Subjecte: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object ] > I'm not asking for news like this to be put on the front page of the web > site or sent to -announce or anything, just a succinct message to -chat > or maybe -hackers to put the facts into the public domain. Thats all. Ask Matt to post the core message, with core's approval, if he wants all you people to see. It's his business, peripherally that of committers, and so it should be up to him, as he has the biggest personal stake (arguably, some would say this is the result of personal vendetta, and I would disagree, but those people are as welcome to their black helicopters as the rest of the world), so ask him. -- Juli Mallett AIM: BSDFlata -- IRC: juli on EFnet OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14:10:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357D737B40E for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C98443FB1 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h15MA6Os011576; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h15MA6al011573; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:06 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:06 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030205213021.42357.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030205233350.R43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > --- Narvi ha scritto: > > ... > > > > Linux on Desktop has failed? On the contrary, Linux > > on Desktop has never > > been doing better and is in a major upswing. > > > It has never been better cause it has never been > there. > You really don't like homework, do you? ;) > You assume things that aren't true. > http://kt.zork.net/kernel-traffic/latest.html#1 He is basicly ... just totally wrong in most areas and in the ones he isn't he doesn't realise that these don't actually pertain to a Linux desktop. For all I know he might well be right on the PDAs, but on desktop he is just plain wrong. In fact, looking into the very issue of 'linux on desktop' on kernel traffic is stupid. The overlap between people who have a clue about linux kernel and linux desktop is very small. Oh - and I actually work for a company that does unix on desktop & is going to release a linux desktop. > > cheers, > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14:17:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFC237B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8FE43F79 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gXrJ-0004SP-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:17:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3E418CE4.C1C7562A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:15:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) References: <200302052153.h15LrK174652@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a45d18633c96ec37ac2ecf338cfcc1eb66a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > David is one of those guys who will not be happy unless he is > > arguing with someone who is not happy to be arguing with him. > > You are, as usual, in error. My happiness has nothing to do with > anyone outside of me. > > Usually when someone is not happy in an argument, it means they > aren't being thought of as "right". ;) Usually, whn a terrorist is not happy, it means that somewhere on the planet, there is a living member of the ethnic group they have decided to target. The happiness of the terrorist group and that of the ethnic group they have targetted are mutually exclusive. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14:44:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFD637B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056CC43E4A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h15MiD175114; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302052244.h15MiD175114@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:44:08 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >> > David is one of those guys who will not be happy unless he is >> > arguing with someone who is not happy to be arguing with him. >> >> You are, as usual, in error. My happiness has nothing to do with >> anyone outside of me. >> >> Usually when someone is not happy in an argument, it means they >> aren't being thought of as "right". ;) > > Usually, whn a terrorist is not happy, it means that somewhere on > the planet, there is a living member of the ethnic group they have > decided to target. You are confusing a sense of duty with happiness. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "The king has been kind to me," a man was telling Nasrudin. "I planted wheat but the rains came. He heard of my troubles and compensated me for the damage done by the flood." Nasrudin thought for a moment. "Tell me," he asked, "how does one _cause_ a flood?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14:45:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34AD37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEB643FC2 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h15Mjc175144; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:45:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302052245.h15Mjc175144@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Larry Sica Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:45:33 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica writes: > On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 04:53 PM, Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >>> David is one of those guys who will not be happy unless he is >>> arguing with someone who is not happy to be arguing with him. >> >> You are, as usual, in error. My happiness has nothing to do with >> anyone outside of me. > > But you can be made happy by the actions of others... Technically incorrect. You -decide- to be happy, and the actions of others influenced your decision. > AND FURTHERMORE i make a motion to adjourn this thread as i am > approaching a non-happy moment.. I just ran out of pistachios... I just bet you will fix that and then go back to being happy. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14:53:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D0337B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AE743F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gYQ4-0005l1-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:53:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3E41953C.CD0FC63E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:50:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTC Payoff [11 september] (was Re: oh my god the nasa shuttleblewup) References: <200302052244.h15MiD175114@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ac69db203597fd422b064735dfd36116548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > You are confusing a sense of duty with happiness. ;) For some people, it is not enough to have; in order to be happy with what they have, others must lack. Not everyone can have the biggest car. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15: 7:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2CF37B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0440543FB9 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h15N72LM009375; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:07:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200302052038.h15KcYaX093312@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: <200302052038.h15KcYaX093312@grimreaper.grondar.org> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:50:01 +0100 To: Mark Murray From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Project status Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:38 PM +0000 2003/02/05, Mark Murray wrote: > SysV begat BSD. Really? I thought that SysV and BSD both derived from a more ancient ancestor -- maybe Version 7? > SysV later used some BSD extensions. True. > SysV then begat Irix. True. > Therefore Irix has some BSD derived code. Correct. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15: 7:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6173337B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF43443FB9; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h15N72LK009375; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:07:03 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:43:00 +0100 To: Julian Elischer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 AM -0800 2003/02/05, Julian Elischer wrote: > I suggest we hold a plebecite on this, where people be willing to put > their names in public to decide the issue. > I think personally that core has acted against the wishes of the > majority of committers, but that there is a large group who will go > along with what core says, because they believe in the "rules". This is a classic vocal minority/silent majority problem. Unless you explicitly enumerate all possible FreeBSD committers and contributors and ask each and every one of them which way they vote on the subject and you force them to vote one way or the other, and then you expose all the voting information (potentially obscuring the information that ties a particular arbitrary code to a particular person), then you'll never be able to get a final answer to this question. There are too many people who don't know anything about the situation (and therefore can't justify voting one way or the other), or don't care, or care but don't choose to complain publicly, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15: 8:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CF237B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCFB43FE3; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (rocky [192.168.0.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h15N6kP8061413; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:06:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E41995E.6030603@401.cx> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:08:14 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juli Mallett Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030205021134.GO12525@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030204201252.03ccb2e0@localhost> <1044415826.2362.2.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3E40D2B6.2010006@401.cx> <20030205155622.A99519@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Juli Mallett wrote: > * De: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg [ Data: 2003-02-05 ] >>[snipped] > > > So write some documentation, run an advocacy site, do something which > is directly giving back to the community, and don't do it thinking that > you have anything coming. You don't, I don't, period. I may never have actually contributed anything to the official project, but I like to think that I have done something. I help out on mailinglist as soon as I can spare the time. One of my addresses is rocky@bsdvault.net, and even if I cant say that I run the site I have been supporting and helping it from the beginning. I frequently get calls from local users that I've never meet that ask for help with BSD related issues, since Im known to be a fanatic freebsd advocater. I always help, and I have never asked for anything in return. I have never demanded any say in internal issues of the project, and never questioned any decisions made by developers or core, even if I might not have liked them. I see core as smarter, more experienced and more engaged in the project then I will ever be. Nothing could be further from my mind then questioning them. The only thing I argued against in my first mail was the "if you dont code, you aint worth shit" attitude I experienced in many posts (and Im still not saying it was core members or even developers, Im still talking about the entire community). Im not saying a person like me should have any say whatsoever in important decision, merely a chance to express ones opinion and maybe a "thank you". > However since I happen to actively work ON FreeBSD and INSIDE the project, > I get to say how internal issues are handled. > > I can't help but think most of the users in the world would vote for jkh > for some lame-ass popularity reason and go around like "I HELPED JORDAN > K. HUBBARD CEO OF FREEBSD TO WIN THE CORE TEAM BACK FOR DILLON" or such. I dont know jkh and I dont know dillon, other then by reputation. Even if asked, I would refuse to vote either way, simple because I am not involved and I do not know enough to make a statement or support any side. > You have to get into the system, if you want the sort of influence people > are talking about. Submit bug reports. Learn how to fix simple things. > Or just fix documentation. It's appreciated. I dont want any influence at all, I just asked for a little respect. > But don't turn into [name omitted] and run around doing things for the > @FreeBSD.org address. You gotta actually want to help, to be allowed > to do things on your own. Or to help. I want to help, and I will continue to help. And I will surely do it on my own. I have enough email addresses, I do not need another one. > If you're just fucking around for fame and glory then who gives a shit > about you anyway? I've never asked for neither, I simply tried to point out that a user can be worth listening to even if he doesnt submit code. A simple "thank you, we will consider your opinions" go a long way to make people feel part of the project, even if they dont have commit bits. I do not want to make the decisions, I just want the people that do make the decisions to atleast listen to all users. In the end, they (the decision people, not the users) still should have the power to decide which way to go. Thats the only way it could be. -- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15:12:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244B137B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D2D43FBD; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03834; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:11:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205160926.028a98d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:11:47 -0700 To: Miguel Mendez , Wilko Bulte From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205174738.467c0e9d.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205224625.A1356@grosbein.pp.ru> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:47 AM 2/5/2003, Miguel Mendez wrote: >For certain values of abusive. This wouldn't be a problem for, e.g. the >OpenBSD people. It's true that being involved with OpenBSD requires an especially thick skin. But an essential part of leadership is not having one that's too thin. That's one reason why I propose that leadership of the project as a whole be a separate thing from being a developer: it'd be possible to have thin-skinned developers. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15:13:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7F737B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF96643F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:13:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03867; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:13:11 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161228.028d33f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:13:08 -0700 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205191916.C43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030204193238.0408d9d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:20 AM 2/5/2003, Narvi wrote: >> When I was first introduced to FreeBSD, that's what I was told it >> was -- by someone who was a member of that "cabal" at the time. ;-) >> > >Yes, and then was a time when FreeBSD had a president, whom we didn't get >to elect (or even select) either. That's funny; he's the very same person who referred to the core team (the elected one) as a "cabal." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15:22:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B20C37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714CE43F85; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:22:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04009; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:22:07 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:22:04 -0700 To: Gordon Tetlow , Julian Elischer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, developers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:03 PM 2/5/2003, Gordon Tetlow wrote: >core has made their decision. When they were elected, you entrusted them >to make hard decisions like this. When *who* elected them? I certainly had no vote. Right now, -core is, in a very real sense, self-electing. They decide who gets a commit bit, and the people with the commit bits vote for -core. Sort of like the situation with George Bush and the US Supreme Court. A predecessor of the same party appointed the judges, who made Bush president out of partisan loyalty even though he lost the popular vote and the election results were irreparably tainted by illegally designed ballots. Much corporate malfeasance is due to a similar phenomenon: The CEO brings in Board members, who owe loyalty to the CEO due to the perks he grants them. In all of these cases we see failures of governance due to organizational design that does not properly anticipate vested interests and feedback loops related to them. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16: 8:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E35037B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [65.39.129.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B0943F3F; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@espresso.q9media.com) Received: by espresso.q9media.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 6B6489C46; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:56:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:56:50 -0500 From: Mike Barcroft To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Message-ID: <20030205185650.B63992@espresso.q9media.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:43:00PM +0100 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please take @developers and @core off this thread. Developers have enough to do without listening to armchair anarchists. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:19:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9C337B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEAB143FA3 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:19:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gZkp-0005hi-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:19:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3E41A909.1048F9C9@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:15:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Brett's odd take on the Florida election References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4217d42c40005bcaf2a11f9ea8f186da8548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Sort of like the situation with George Bush and the US Supreme > Court. A predecessor of the same party appointed the judges, who > made Bush president out of partisan loyalty even though he lost > the popular vote and the election results were irreparably tainted > by illegally designed ballots. Florida could have revoted with different ballots. The decision was up to Florida. Neither party wanted that, because then people in Florida would be deciding the election, and there would probably be a significant probability of tampering, as well as a significant amount of people changing their minds, now that their vote actually mattered. For fairness, the would have had to limit participation to registered voters who polling records indicated had previously voted with the old ballots. Even then, it would have been a run-off election, as the Green Party and Socialist Party, and other candidates get zero votes, as everyone picks one of the two horses the rest of the U.S. has indicated must win. Meanwhile, some votes would also change, after seeing what jackasses the candidates political machines made of their candidates. Gee. They'd be in the same position as Hawaii always is, relative to being able to know the outcome everywhere else before voting... As to winning the popular vote, it really depends on which set of votes you choose to decide to exclude, doesn't it? There are the people who filed absentee ballots which were not included in the totals, but who pretty clearly intended to vote, and then there are people who registered and didn't vote, who pretty clearly intended to not vote, and then there are people who voted, who are variously claimed to have voted for a different candidate by mistake, or to have voted for that candidate on purpose. As to who the U.S. Supreme Court picked, by refusing to pick, and leaving it up to the Florida Secretary of State: their appointments are made, in theory, on the basis of judgement, not on the basis of how they will vote once there, and while bias is certainly possible, favor-trading isn't, since justices are appointed for life, specifically to prevent them *needing* favors, and becoming succeptible to trade proposals. The election was what it was. Any vote result is what it is. If you want reform, do it now, while it's not a fire you have to put out. I recommend starting with requiring all polls, everywhere, to open and close at the same time, Eastern Standard Time, so that early returns and exit polling in the East do not effect voter turnout in the West. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:25: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B772137B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD66043F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from mi.us.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h160OYDm001788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:24:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Brett Glass , Gordon Tetlow , Julian Elischer Subject: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:25:02 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200302051925.02364.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.21 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [CCs trimmed] On Wednesday 05 February 2003 06:22 pm, Brett Glass wrote: = Sort of like the situation with George Bush and the US Supreme Court. = A predecessor of the same party appointed the judges, who made Bush = president out of partisan loyalty even though he lost the popular = vote and the election results were irreparably tainted by illegally = designed ballots. Please, spare us from your political agenda. Many foreign participants don't even understand you, while some American ones would strongly disagree with you :-) Even you don't appear to realize, that the president of the USA is NEVER chosen by popular vote -- by design. You also forgot to add the "IANAL" to your comment on the legality of the Florida's ballots during the last presidential elections. People accuse the current administration of the USA of being "court appointed" as if that's something horrible. It was not true in that case -- that's not what the court was deciding, but even if it were. Half the country (give or take) would've been pissed one way or the other -- much better to take the judges' decision than to go to a civil war. Get over it and stop reading Ted Rall :-) = When *who* elected them? I certainly had no vote. Mmm, that explains a few things. Perhaps, you should stop CC-ing core and developers? Stick to chat if you have to vent something. -mi (an optimat (sp?)) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:33:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04F537B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9251143FCB for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003020600334400200i618ke>; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:33:44 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h160Wc5F019579; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:32:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h160WRWn019574; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) References: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E4164CA.3B1E7C30@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Feb 2003 16:32:27 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E4164CA.3B1E7C30@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The secondary reason for it is so that when you are running X, and > your kernel panics, the console gets properly dropped into the > debugger, instead of leaving you screwed. A while before I quit Linux two years ago, the kernel got a config option to enable a special key (SysReq?) that was supposed to let you send several different commands to the kernel even if some process like X tied up the keyboard. (I don't remember the details; maybe "kill process using the keyboard", "kill user process", etc.; and I don't recall whether it actually worked in the hanging X case.) It seemed like a very useful feature and I was wishing for it when I tried FreeBSD 5.0-RC2 and -CURRENT. (Usually, it's only X that messes up, not the kernel.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:46:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118FC37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B6743F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:46:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05072; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:46:05 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174449.029e1900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 17:46:02 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett's odd take on the Florida election Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3E41A909.1048F9C9@mindspring.com> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:15 PM 2/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >Florida could have revoted with different ballots. And should have. The "butterfly" ballots used in Dade County violated the requirements of Florida law. >The decision was up to Florida. No, it wasn't. The US Supreme Court refused to leave the decision to Florida. They wanted their man in. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:47:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB7337B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [66.11.169.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B7B43FBF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 839697C0E; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC491E94 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:47:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:47:19 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@m20.unixathome.org To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: offline: FreeBSD Diary, Fresh{Ports|Source} Message-ID: <20030205193943.Q64945-100000@m20.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The above mentioned websites have been offline for most of today. I've been unable to reach my provider but I have left a message. This may be premature, but I'd rather start looking now than be forced to look later. My hope is that my provider will get back to me real soon now with an explanation of some cable cut etc. They've previously been very responsive. But fearing the worst, I'm looking for a box and bandwidth to host the above? I pretty much need full control over the box. Thank you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:49:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9AD37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A01443FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:49:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05118; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:48:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174625.029e7ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 17:48:42 -0700 To: Mikhail Teterin , Gordon Tetlow , Julian Elischer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Cc: Wilko Bulte , Eugene Grosbein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200302051925.02364.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:25 PM 2/5/2003, Mikhail Teterin wrote: >Even you don't appear to realize, that the president of the USA is NEVER >chosen by popular vote -- by design. Nor should the president be chosen by the Supreme Court. >You also forgot to add the "IANAL" >to your comment on the legality of the Florida's ballots during the last >presidential elections. No "IANAL" needed. The ballots were in violation of the plain text of the law. Oh, and as for cc'ing -core; I didn't do so, at least not intentionally. Was a message to which I replied cross-posted? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 17: 9:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6587337B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13409.mail.yahoo.com (web13409.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0881843FA3 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030206010919.90459.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.203] by web13409.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:09:19 CET Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 02:09:19 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030205233350.R43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Narvi ha scritto: > ... > he is just plain wrong. In fact, looking into the > very issue of 'linux on > desktop' on kernel traffic is stupid. The overlap > between people who have > a clue about linux kernel and linux desktop is very > small. > And that's part of the problem. Everyone kept thinking that making UNIX a good desktop was a matter of having Star Office and Wordperfect. No clue there :(. > Oh - and I actually work for a company that does > unix on desktop & is > going to release a linux desktop. > Good luck.. honest! It's a tough market. Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 17:46: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB31237B433 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1E143FCB for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003020601460005200dufuie>; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:46:00 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h161is5F020490 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h161imwp020487; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:44:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brett's odd take on the Florida election References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> <3E41A909.1048F9C9@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Feb 2003 17:44:48 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E41A909.1048F9C9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The election was what it was. Any vote result is what it is. And besides, one of the guys has conceded -- twice. But then, if he needn't have honored his word the first time, I guess he needn't honor it the second time, either. Never mind... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 18:14:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2661D37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587E643FBF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:14:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05892; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:14:19 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205190635.00bc79e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 19:14:18 -0700 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett's "odd" take on the Florida election In-Reply-To: References: <3E41A909.1048F9C9@mindspring.com> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> <3E41A909.1048F9C9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: >> The election was what it was. Any vote result is what it is. Thanks to the infamous "butterfly ballot," we'll never know what the result was. But it appears that, given a ballot that people filled out as they'd intended, the result would have been the election of Al Gore. Not that Gore is a saint, by any means. He has always come across as stiff and phony. But he was at least a benign choice. On the other hand, having Dubya in the White House has been catastrophic. He has plunged the United States into a double dip recession, bungled diplomacy in the Middle East, squandered the budget surplus, set the stage for wholesale destruction of the environment, lost the US millions of jobs, put foxes in every government henhouse, and is preparing to go to war with Iraq primarily to avenge a family grudge. Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >And besides, one of the guys has conceded -- twice. A shame, that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 18:17:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810E037B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB2E43F3F for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:17:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from mi.us.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h162HjDm002062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:17:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:08:25 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174625.029e7ee0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174625.029e7ee0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200302052108.25303.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.21 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [CC trimmed further] On Wednesday 05 February 2003 07:48 pm, Brett Glass wrote: = At 05:25 PM 2/5/2003, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = = >Even you don't appear to realize, that the president of the USA is = >NEVER chosen by popular vote -- by design. Now, that you've conceded, that the popular vote was not supposed to affect the choice of president, you should apologise for your attempt to mislead your audience into thinking, it was :-) = Nor should the president be chosen by the Supreme Court. Better that than a lot of other possibilities. (Ivory Coast? Venezuella?) But he was not anyway... The question boiled down to: "What to do, if one side's win over the other is smaller than the poll's margin of error?" Accept the result anyway? Re-count? Leave it to the state's government (and to which branch of it) to decide? Re-vote? Fight it out on the streets? What does the Florida and the US Federal law say on this subject, and what are the precedents, if any -- that was the question in front of the Supreme Court -- perfectly within their domain. Not: "Who do the nine of us think, should be the President?" They rendered their judgement, and I have no grounds to dispute it. Neither do you, apparently, but you are bitter, because you rooted for the other guy. Much the same, I also have little reason not to trust core, when all of them claim, Matt can be impossible to deal with, even though it seems to me, our tolerance should consider one's brilliance more. But then, again, I personally have never seen the alleged "dark side of Matt"... If you like ancient history, you can consider the core vs. Matt in parallel with Roman Senate vs. . While the individual was usually more brilliant than most of the senators, and in times of big troubles (such as a dangerous foreign invasion, or VM instability in the most recent release) would even be appointed as the Dictator, collectively the Senate was better than any individual, who -- in contemporary terms -- "would not scale". That's why, IMHO, Rome eventually took over all of its neighbours, who were governed by either kings or democracies. Carthagen was neither and caused Romans the most troubles, BTW. And that is why, IMHO, it declined after itself switching to monarchy :-\, although the Christianity, probably, played a role too (ducks)... (To continue the parallel, what little I know about OpenBSD lets me consider it as a monarchy, while FreeBSD is a republic. There are advantages to both, although I prefer the republic when I play Civilization (-; ). Matt's story is not unlike that of some prominent Romans, who were expelled or otherwise punished for disrespecting the common norms later in life, however thankful Rome was (or had to be) to them for their past contributions. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 18:18:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0788637B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808CB43F3F; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:18:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gbcN-000183-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:18:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:18:23 -0800 To: Brent Verner Cc: freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" , calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 07:10:06AM -0500, Brent Verner wrote: > On the HotSpot note, is there any work being done on getting 1.3.1's > HotSpot working? AFAIR, it would not build with 1.3.1-patchset-7. BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. Found out about something recently that almost certainly was kept purposely from me some how. I haven't figured out where the failure is, so sometime my need to pass before the developments become more clear. The basics are that the FreeBSD Foundation is grossly dysfunctional and should *not* be the corporate entity group to recieve grants. That should be dealt with more directly by the sponsor's management layer if they have a desire to do support FreeBSD development. I'd like to see the removal of John Polstra as Vice President of the organization and for other current or potential sponsors to pressure either a political change or public apology along with an acknowledgement of this leadership failure. There are other failures closer to our group that need to be address too. I'll have an explanation of this soon with a psychological, social and polical analysis of what transpired. It's pretty amazingly fucked up. More to come... bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 18:58:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F1637B405; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wall.polstra.com (wall-gw.polstra.com [206.213.73.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A092443FB1; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:58:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from strings.polstra.com (strings.polstra.com [206.213.73.20]) by wall.polstra.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h162wAu4032843; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:58:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.1 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:58:10 -0800 (PST) Organization: Polstra & Co., Inc. From: John Polstra To: (Hui) Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Cc: bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, Brent Verner Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found here: http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ Draw your own conclusions. John Hui wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 07:10:06AM -0500, Brent Verner wrote: >> On the HotSpot note, is there any work being done on getting 1.3.1's >> HotSpot working? AFAIR, it would not build with 1.3.1-patchset-7. > > BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given > the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to > announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. > > Found out about something recently that almost certainly was kept purposely > from me some how. I haven't figured out where the failure is, so sometime > my need to pass before the developments become more clear. > > The basics are that the FreeBSD Foundation is grossly dysfunctional and > should *not* be the corporate entity group to recieve grants. That > should be dealt with more directly by the sponsor's management layer > if they have a desire to do support FreeBSD development. > > I'd like to see the removal of John Polstra as Vice President of the > organization and for other current or potential sponsors to pressure > either a political change or public apology along with an acknowledgement > of this leadership failure. > > There are other failures closer to our group that need to be address > too. > > I'll have an explanation of this soon with a psychological, social and > polical analysis of what transpired. It's pretty amazingly fucked up. > > More to come... > > bill > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 19: 1: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C6D37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E2543FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06380; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:00:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:00:47 -0700 To: Mikhail Teterin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200302052108.25303.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174625.029e7ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205161539.028acab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174625.029e7ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:08 PM 2/5/2003, Mikhail Teterin wrote: >Now, that you've conceded, that the popular vote was not supposed to >affect the choice of president, you should apologise for your attempt >to mislead your audience into thinking, it was :-) I was not being misleading. I consider the Electoral College to be a bug, not a feature. As you may recall, it was created due to elitism on the part of the Founding Fathers; they believed that there had to be a layer of protection against the "rabble" making a poor decision. 200 years later, experience worldwide has shown that direct suffrage works best. >= Nor should the president be chosen by the Supreme Court. > >Better that than a lot of other possibilities. (Ivory Coast? >Venezuella?) Or the current means of choosing -core (he says, trying to get the conversation back on topic). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 19: 2:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADAC37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.svzserv.kemerovo.su (www.svzserv.kemerovo.su [213.184.65.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADA743FA3; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:02:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eugen@kuzbass.ru) Received: from kuzbass.ru (kost [213.184.65.82]) by www.svzserv.kemerovo.su (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1631kq5024712; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:01:47 +0700 (KRAT) (envelope-from eugen@kuzbass.ru) Message-ID: <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:01:01 +0700 From: Eugene Grosbein Organization: SVZServ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: ru,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Rhodes Cc: Gordon Tetlow , julian@elischer.org, wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl, eugen@grosbein.pp.ru, chat@FreeBSD.org, developers@FreeBSD.org, core@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> <20030205140726.407e150a.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tom Rhodes wrote: > I swear that an email from Matt came across where he specifically said > that he would not come back to FreeBSD? Was I just imagining that or? Somebody, please edit commit log for rev. 1.364 of CVSROOT/access with quotes of that letter. Eugene Grosbein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 19:26:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C708937B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404F043FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gcgL-0000XP-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 19:26:33 -0800 Received: (qmail 4250 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 03:26:30 -0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:26:30 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mikhail Teterin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Message-ID: <20030206032630.GA4203@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >= Nor should the president be chosen by the Supreme Court. > > > >Better that than a lot of other possibilities. (Ivory Coast? > >Venezuella?) > > Or the current means of choosing -core (he says, trying to get > the conversation back on topic). So now it's back "on topic", let me point out the obvious once again: People don't have much choice in their citizenship. An American-born citizen didn't have a choice in that (yes, one can emigrate, but that's not such an easy option). So it is fair that citizens are given certain rights. That's the idea of democracy -- to give people control, however imperfect, over their destinies. Only someone as pompous as Brett would try to extend that idea to "members of the FreeBSD community". None of us are forced to be part of this community. We're here because we like it, but that doesn't mean we can make demands.(*) It has a system, and a structure, which is designed for efficient work, not for popularity. There's no reason to give users "rights". As core members have pointed out, user inputs are essential, non-committers can and do play important roles. There is a place for suggestions, and feature requests, and stuff like that. The key word is "requests". There's no room for demands and there should not be. - Rahul (*) Just because you like my stuff doesn't mean I owe you anything. -- Bob Dylan (from FreeBSD's fortune files) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20: 5:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCCD37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D927543FDF; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gdHn-0001Eg-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:05:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:15 -0800 To: John Polstra Cc: bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:58:10PM -0800, John Polstra wrote: > Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. Yes, it is. You should have own the fuck up and then changed the situation and clarified the political structures surrounding this incredibly poor decision. > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > here: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > Draw your own conclusions. It should be renamed "Bill's Punk Pock Anal Invasion of Psychological Supressives". Coming soon to a gay porn section of your local video store. Again, there was no reason to exclude me from the political loop of this project. I understand you're a bit "stiff", maybe incontinent, but I attest that I'm stiffer in siutations like this. Again, I call for the removal of John Polstra from the role of Vice President of the FreeBSD Foundation and clarification of political roles with in the FreeBSD Java group. More to come... bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:15:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65FE37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn15.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1971543F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:15:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leafy@leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [211.74.135.112] (port=49302 helo=leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.10:3) id 18gdRl-0006uP-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:15:33 +0800 Received: from leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leafy.idv.tw (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h164FW4F055977 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:15:32 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by leafy.idv.tw (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h164FVtr055976 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:15:31 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:15:31 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: To back Bill up Message-ID: <20030206041531.GA54558@leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John, this looks nasty, I mean on your part. I think what Bill demanded was resonable -- just an explaination or some respect for his hard work. As a regular Java user on Freebsd, I really cannot fully express my gratitude towards Bill for his Hotspot work. From what I read in the "full conversation", you never answered his question of "Why am I not informed". There is no doubt that I'll be trying out Alexey's work soon, but it does not mean that I will overlook what Bill had done. I think bad politics is getting into FreeBSD (just look at -chat) and how many good hackers like Bill do we have to lose? Jiawei Ye -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:23:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D543337B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from magic.adaptec.com (magic.adaptec.com [208.236.45.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459D543FAF; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@freebsdfoundation.org) Received: from redfish.adaptec.com (redfish.adaptec.com [162.62.50.11]) by magic.adaptec.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h164MQD29104; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.btc.adaptec.com (btc.btc.adaptec.com [10.100.0.52]) by redfish.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00301; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.100.253.70] (aslan [10.100.253.70]) by btc.btc.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29828; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:21:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:22:00 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Reply-To: "Justin T. Gibbs" To: Bill Huey , John Polstra Cc: bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> In-Reply-To: <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0b12 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It should be renamed "Bill's Punk Pock Anal Invasion of Psychological > Supressives". Coming soon to a gay porn section of your local video > store. Bill, The FreeBSD Foundation is a corporation. It is not politically affiliated with anyone. The Foundation decided to expedite the completion of a binary release of the 1.4.1 JDK and JRE that FreeBSD users could easily install. It chose Alexey to aid in that goal and gave him full permission to release any SASL based work back to the FreeBSD Java effort. We could have easily switched to using Sun partner only sources and completed this all in a back room, and considering your reaction that might have been much, much easier. Instead we decided to share this funded work with the community so that it could be incorperated into other ports for other platforms. That's the whole story. No conspiracies. No politics. Just three guys running a non-profit in their spare time, funding things they feel will benefit the FreeBSD community. If you don't like what the Foundation is doing, don't send us any donations. It's really that simple. -- Justin Justin T. Gibbs Secretary/Treasurer The FreeBSD Foundation To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:31:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B077F37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn15.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D4D43F93 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leafy@leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [211.74.135.112] (port=49313 helo=leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.10:3) id 18gdgp-0007rd-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:31:07 +0800 Received: from leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leafy.idv.tw (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h164V64F026426 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:31:07 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by leafy.idv.tw (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h164V6n4026423 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:31:06 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:31:06 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206043106.GA9684@leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 09:22:00PM -0700, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > Bill, > > The FreeBSD Foundation is a corporation. It is not politically affiliated > with anyone. The Foundation decided to expedite the completion of a > binary release of the 1.4.1 JDK and JRE that FreeBSD users could easily > install. It chose Alexey to aid in that goal and gave him full permission to > release any SASL based work back to the FreeBSD Java effort. We could have > easily switched to using Sun partner only sources and completed this all > in a back room, and considering your reaction that might have been > much, much easier. Instead we decided to share this funded work with > the community so that it could be incorperated into other ports for > other platforms. That's the whole story. No conspiracies. No politics. > Just three guys running a non-profit in their spare time, funding things > they feel will benefit the FreeBSD community. If you don't like what the > Foundation is doing, don't send us any donations. It's really that simple. > > -- > Justin It's not really that simple, considering the fact that the foundation keeps the name "FreeBSD" and mentioned "community" in the above paragraph. To rule out someone who had done significant work in the discussion is not the correct thing to do, at least not polite. Have we all lost the sense of politeness? JY -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:33:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B7F37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from twoface.shiftmanager.net (adsl-64-170-199-98.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.170.199.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7D543F93; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:33:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kwerle@pobox.com) Received: from localhost ([192.168.11.244]) by twoface.shiftmanager.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h164Y69R031192; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kwerle@pobox.com) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:33:36 -0800 Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org.shiftmanager.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG To: Bill Huey (Hui) From: Kurt Werle In-Reply-To: <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> Message-Id: <2864A00B-398C-11D7-9A45-0003935B2C48@pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ya know, I really don't much care about any of this. I just want a recent JDK to be distributed with FreeBSD, as was announce back before the 4.5 release. On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 08:05 PM, Bill Huey (Hui) wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:58:10PM -0800, John Polstra wrote: >> Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. > > Yes, it is... Yeah, I'd have to say so. >> Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found >> here: >> >> http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ >> >> Draw your own conclusions. Number 1 conclusion: you're lame for posting private email. Number 2: you're lame for not giving Bill the time of day. > It should be renamed "Bill's Punk Pock Anal Invasion of Psychological > Supressives". Coming soon to a gay porn section of your local video > store. Yeah, and Bill's being kinda lame, too. > Again, there was no reason to exclude me from the political loop of this > project. [blah blah blah] OK, so if management could apologize, and we could get some software updates, and whoever is responsible for getting a JDK released with FreeBSD would get it together, we could all get on with our lives. It's management's job to put up with BS from good developers. Just cope. And get me a JDK. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message Yeah, I've been thinking... Kurt --- kwerle@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~kwerle/ Tired of spam? 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:45:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF1C37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CC244039 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:45:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h164jPrJ002499 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([68.39.203.40]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9VEJO00.ITO for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:45:24 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:45:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Bluetooth on freebsd? From: Larry Sica To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok all on a happier note, I got myself a palm tungsten and a bluetooth usb adapter. Will bluetooth work on freebsd yet? Any hints/ideas/comments? I sync it on my powerbook, but i'd love to get it talking to my freebsd box, maybe to let it connect to it via pppd and to the internet through the freebsd box... Look i am all happy even though i ran out of pistachios ;) --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:46:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71AFA37B406; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B815043F85; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:46:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gdve-0001IT-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:46:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:46:25 -0800 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206044625.GA4877@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 09:22:00PM -0700, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > Bill, > > The FreeBSD Foundation is a corporation. It is not politically affiliated > with anyone. The Foundation decided to expedite the completion of a > binary release of the 1.4.1 JDK and JRE that FreeBSD users could easily > install. It chose Alexey to aid in that goal and gave him full permission to I understand that and I don't object to the decision. I've worked with him before and it hasn't really been a serious problem between me and him that wasn't fixable with more communication. > release any SASL based work back to the FreeBSD Java effort. We could have > easily switched to using Sun partner only sources and completed this all > in a back room, and considering your reaction that might have been You failed to understand how this project works. It's always been open...let me clarify... > much, much easier. Instead we decided to share this funded work with > the community so that it could be incorperated into other ports for > other platforms. That's the whole story. No conspiracies. No politics. What you don't understand is that your group was manipulate some how, consciously or unconsciously by folks in our group, FreeBSD Java, without your group asking or knowing the context of events and my involvement with the FreeBSD Java group. That's possibly a new situation to deal with for the Foundation, but it should have been researched and political roles should have been clarified before any financial commitment. Since Dec 2001, I was pretty much the only heavy technical lead in the project. Alexey wouldn't have even been able to do this if I didn't, on my own time and money, the insane work that HotSpot required to complete and idealistic goal of getting a world class J2SE port to FreeBSD. I should at least be credited with that. This compiler is a prerequist for all work in J2SE 1.4.1 This project has always been open to all and was largely driven by a pure volunteer effort, but because of how Nate (I'm just finding out) and other folks function recently, your group, IMO, was exploited in what seems like a sneeky political move to pad a certain kind of political position that never was his to begin with... That's was just assumed because of his attitude and false confidence about the matter, but he's not the official leader of this group, in fact, nobody is. The failure here is that the Foundation didn't recognize this and clarified his, mine, others... involvement in this group. That's the tragedy here. Do you understand what's going on ? > Just three guys running a non-profit in their spare time, funding things > they feel will benefit the FreeBSD community. If you don't like what the > Foundation is doing, don't send us any donations. It's really that simple. If John Polstra was responsible he would have found *all* of what I said relevant to the course of the grant process and recognize this importance, period. That's what group leaders do, which is conveniently dismissed in this case, minus his role to mediate these kind of disagreements. The Foundation itself potentially has a greater function that what is currently been put forth, if the individual were responsible, they wouldn't be resistent to group input from the FreeBSD community, not his point of view purely. That's partially my point of view. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:49:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F7537B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC46343FB1; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:49:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gdyl-0001J4-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:49:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:49:39 -0800 To: Kurt Werle Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freebsd.org.shiftmanager.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206044939.GA5020@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <2864A00B-398C-11D7-9A45-0003935B2C48@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2864A00B-398C-11D7-9A45-0003935B2C48@pobox.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 08:33:36PM -0800, Kurt Werle wrote: > OK, so if management could apologize, and we could get some software > updates, and whoever is responsible for getting a JDK released with > FreeBSD would get it together, we could all get on with our lives. ... > It's management's job to put up with BS from good developers. Just > cope. And get me a JDK. This is a fully legit complaint and shouldn't be trivialize. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 21: 7: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4260337B405 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-151-201-19-185.pitt.east.verizon.net (pool-151-201-19-185.pitt.east.verizon.net [151.201.19.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522DB43F75 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:06:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sydney.kanga.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2ABD10C3F5 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:10:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E41E047.50900@kanga.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:10:47 -0500 From: David Cuthbert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) References: <20030205035930.45235.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030205103556.B7212@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > XFree86 is doing great, and getting better and better, in my opinion. > What's the problem? [...] Stability? It's rock solid. Hrm. Sadly, I must disagree here. Although the core algorithms of XF86 may be solid, (many of) the drivers are far from so. Much of this, of course, isn't the XF86 developers' fault; video hardware is notorious for being poorly or incorrectly documented, and the rush to market often introduces bugs which, if not worked around, can crash the machine unless the software carefully tip-toes around said bugs. From what I understand, the hardware developers are reluctant to share information with the XF86 team (low volume, questions about enforcing NDAs, etc.). I think they're being overly paranoid, but I understand their concern. Anyway, I'm on a box which allows me to log in about once. Once the X server goes down, it takes the machine with it about 75% of the time (this is a card from the long-defunct Number 9 company, the Revolution IV card required to drive the SGI flatpanel monitor over an OpenLDI connection, the Betamax of LCD connectors). Under Windows, this was never a problem (even switching to full-screen command prompt mode), presumably because Microsoft had access to the hardware designers. I do wish that there was a way to use Windows drivers through some kind of (massive and ugly) compatibility interface. No, I'm not volunteering to write it. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 21: 7:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95A237B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2A543F75 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18geG4-0005hb-01 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:07:32 -0800 Received: (qmail 4700 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 05:07:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:07:28 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: John Polstra Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206050728.GA4651@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [cc greatly trimmed] John Polstra wrote: > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > here: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > Draw your own conclusions. I don't have any conclusions, only a question: is *everyone* at the top echelons of FreeBSD a complete and utter asshole? I mean, were you trying hard to be so stuffy, pompous, condescending and rude to a valuable developer, or do these things just come naturally to you? And what exactly did you hope to achieve by posting that correspondence for all to read? If this is the attitude of so many old-timers on the project, no wonder Matt Dillon couldn't get along with them. I was beginning to get persuaded by some of the core members' postings that they may have been justified in removing him, but this makes me rethink. I've never met any FreeBSD people in person, I know nothing about any of them beyond the publicly posted mailing list email and occasional private mail. But judging by that record, Dillon is far more polite and reasonable, and has much better social skills, than most of the FreeBSD "top brass". - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 21:29:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84D037B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from magic.adaptec.com (magic.adaptec.com [208.236.45.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F36B43FA3; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:29:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@scsiguy.com) Received: from redfish.adaptec.com (redfish.adaptec.com [162.62.50.11]) by magic.adaptec.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h165TBD06269; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.btc.adaptec.com (btc.btc.adaptec.com [10.100.0.52]) by redfish.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18351; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.100.253.70] (aslan [10.100.253.70]) by btc.btc.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29849; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:28:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 22:28:39 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Reply-To: "Justin T. Gibbs" To: Bill Huey , "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <1037650000.1044509319@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> In-Reply-To: <20030206044625.GA4877@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> <20030206044625.GA4877@gnuppy.monkey.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0b12 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> release any SASL based work back to the FreeBSD Java effort. We could have >> easily switched to using Sun partner only sources and completed this all >> in a back room, and considering your reaction that might have been > > You failed to understand how this project works. It's always been > open...let me clarify... I think you misunderstand how business works. We could be open (as open as SASL allows) or closed in our efforts regardless of the methodology used to create the freely available work that the Foundation is using as the basis for its binary releases. That is how the Sun licensing of Java technology works. Its also how BSD works. >> much, much easier. Instead we decided to share this funded work with >> the community so that it could be incorperated into other ports for >> other platforms. That's the whole story. No conspiracies. No politics. > > What you don't understand is that your group was manipulate some how, > consciously or unconsciously by folks in our group, FreeBSD Java, without > your group asking or knowing the context of events and my involvement with > the FreeBSD Java group. That's possibly a new situation to deal with for > the Foundation, but it should have been researched and political roles > should have been clarified before any financial commitment. You are trying to turn this into a power play. I'm sure the FreeBSD Java group can handle its own politics. The Foundation has no role to play there and has no interest in it. I'm sorry you believe that our simplistic goal is causing such strife for you and/or the FreeBSD Java project. That was not our intent and is not our fault. > Since Dec 2001, I was pretty much the only heavy technical lead in the > project. Alexey wouldn't have even been able to do this if I didn't, on my > own time and money, the insane work that HotSpot required to complete and > idealistic goal of getting a world class J2SE port to FreeBSD. I should at > least be credited with that. This compiler is a prerequist for all work in > J2SE 1.4.1 And I'm sure the community is grateful for all of your hard work. Regardless, that does not make you any more or less competent than Alexey or a great many others in the community that understand this technology. Saying otherwise is a slight on people you don't even know and a condemnation of a selection process that you know nothing about. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, the Foundation is ready to be judged by the outcome of its initiatives, whether they revolve around Java or other areas of interest to the FreeBSD community. > This project has always been open to all and was largely driven by a pure > volunteer effort, but because of how Nate (I'm just finding out) and other > folks function recently, your group, IMO, was exploited in what seems like > a sneeky political move to pad a certain kind of political position that > never was his to begin with... > > That's was just assumed because of his attitude and false confidence about > the matter, but he's not the official leader of this group, in fact, nobody > is. The failure here is that the Foundation didn't recognize this and > clarified his, mine, others... involvement in this group. The group dynamics of the FreeBSD Java project are completely outside the Foundation's charter. Please launder your own dirty laundry. > That's the tragedy here. Do you understand what's going on ? No, but I'm guessing it involves black helicopters. If you look at the Foundation's financial data, you'll see we can't afford black helicopters, so they aren't ours. 8-) -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 21:36:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447BF37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from jupiter-mail.linuxengine.net (jupiter-mail.linuxengine.net [65.61.129.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBC843F75; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:36:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@utzweb.net) Received: from john.utzweb.net.utzweb.net (12-212-100-69.client.attbi.com [12.212.100.69]) by jupiter-mail.linuxengine.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h165aGAd027243; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:36:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:36:39 -0800 Message-ID: <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> From: "John L. Utz III" To: John Polstra Cc: (Hui) , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus-pre4) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.4 () IN_REP_TO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John; Thankyou so much for taking the time to summarize the discussion between you and bill. Others have indicated that posting private email is impolitic. That may be so. Perhaps it might have been best to ask bill before posting, but that seems somewhat redundant given that the whole thread was about bills desire to disseminate this discussion to a wider audience. :-) Given the heat of the discussion, i can certainly see myself posting it under the title of 'Bill's Job Interview', but i think that after i thought about it a while after i wasnt so terribly annoyed by his tack, i'd probably reconsider. I am certainly no stranger to going off on people on FreeBSD mailing lists who have pissed me off. I can recall going absolutely ape on Rod Grimes because he thought it was ok to snoop on users. ( no, dont start! :-) ) And just a few months ago Murray felt it pertinent to reprimand me for an ad-hominem attack on somebody on freebsd-mobile. So, obviously, i share bill's penchant for hyperbole in my e-disagreements. sorry. i wish i was better. i wish he (bill) was better too. But, it seems to me that your snapshot of the discussion lacks context: Where's the Request for Proposals? Where's all the eager emails from the 100's of developers that felt they where smart enuf to do the job? Where's all the wailing and gnashing of teeth email from everybody else that didnt get the job? Where's the msg's that got Mr. Zelkin the job? Where's the msg's where Mr. Zelkin said to bill "Dude, umm, just to let you know, the FBDF is going to *pay* me to work on stuff that you have selflessly slaved over for thousands of hours pro-bono, and i think it's important that i, as an *ethical* sort of person, should clue you in."? While conceding the possibility of taking you out of context, i want to address the '100 people could have done this job'(paraprased) statement. IMHO, this is not about competency. There may be other, more competent people than bill ( there are *probably* more competent people then bill, sometimes he codes kinda' funny ). This is about decency. And human relations. And *enthusiasm*, which is really the only glue that sticks projects together. Bill has busted galactic ass to get us this far. So have lot's of other people, but it seems like bill was the only stakeholder excluded from the decisionmaking? If i where him, i'd be achingly pissed off too! So, the end result is that we get a totally cool 1.4 jdk at long last. that's good. but we deeply alienate someone who did a lot of work to make that possible. that's suboptimal, and it doesnt look like it ever needed to happen. yes, i recognize that some folks think that the quality of his work might be less than optimal, and that his style can be distinctly uncollegial. That doesnt diminish his contribution, and i hope that he continues to work on the jvm despite this *incredibly* *demotivating* experience. and i hope he doesnt take my faint dissin' personally. but if he does, tuff fucking shit! :-) i hope that FBSDF takes a slightly more open approach to dolin' out the loot in the future. i take justin's point that running the FBSDF is a lot of work. and i assume that this probably *wasnt* a 'fuck bill' session, it was just folks trying to get something done. but going slower and being more public would have done a world of good. Take the lessons of NASA's shuttle disaster to heart: talk long, talk loud, talk often. i've been on this list for a dang long time now, and this sudden emergence of 1.4. stuff just seemed really surprising, and now i know why. i dont think it was good to be surprised. just my us$0.02 johnu freebsd user since october of 1993, aka spaz@u.washington.edu At Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:58:10 -0800 (PST), John Polstra wrote: > > Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. > > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > here: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > Draw your own conclusions. > > John > > Hui wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 07:10:06AM -0500, Brent Verner wrote: > >> On the HotSpot note, is there any work being done on getting 1.3.1's > >> HotSpot working? AFAIR, it would not build with 1.3.1-patchset-7. > > > > BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given > > the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to > > announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. > > > > Found out about something recently that almost certainly was kept purposely > > from me some how. I haven't figured out where the failure is, so sometime > > my need to pass before the developments become more clear. > > > > The basics are that the FreeBSD Foundation is grossly dysfunctional and > > should *not* be the corporate entity group to recieve grants. That > > should be dealt with more directly by the sponsor's management layer > > if they have a desire to do support FreeBSD development. > > > > I'd like to see the removal of John Polstra as Vice President of the > > organization and for other current or potential sponsors to pressure > > either a political change or public apology along with an acknowledgement > > of this leadership failure. > > > > There are other failures closer to our group that need to be address > > too. > > > > I'll have an explanation of this soon with a psychological, social and > > polical analysis of what transpired. It's pretty amazingly fucked up. > > > > More to come... > > > > bill > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 22:11: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761E237B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74B743FAF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08364; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:10:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:10:49 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Cc: Mikhail Teterin , chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030206032630.GA4203@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:26 PM 2/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >People don't have much choice in their citizenship. An American-born >citizen didn't have a choice in that (yes, one can emigrate, but >that's not such an easy option). So it is fair that citizens are >given certain rights. That's not the theory at all. The theory is that rights are "natural." Read the preamble to the US Constitution. >Only someone as pompous as Brett Argumentum ad hominem -- and bogus. >would try to extend that idea to "members of the FreeBSD community". >None of us are forced to be part >of this community. In short, your thesis is that if you can choose to leave, you have no rights? That's REALLY bogus. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 22:18:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF56537B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BF143FCB for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 22:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gfMp-0007k1-01 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 22:18:35 -0800 Received: (qmail 5020 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 06:18:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:18:28 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mikhail Teterin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Message-ID: <20030206061827.GA4984@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Feb 5, 2003 at 23:10:49: > At 08:26 PM 2/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >People don't have much choice in their citizenship. An American-born > >citizen didn't have a choice in that (yes, one can emigrate, but > >that's not such an easy option). So it is fair that citizens are > >given certain rights. > > That's not the theory at all. The theory is that rights are > "natural." Read the preamble to the US Constitution. There's nothing "natural" about rights. The only thing natural is the animal kingdom, and there are no rights there. And don't bother citing the US constitution. The US did not give rights to a substantial part of its population for nearly 200 years after independence. > >would try to extend that idea to "members of the FreeBSD community". > >None of us are forced to be part > >of this community. > > In short, your thesis is that if you can choose to leave, you > have no rights? You have the right, and the freedom, to leave, and do anything else you want. You don't have the right to tell other people what to do. You're getting something for free, and the problem with you is you want more and more of it for free, without giving anything in return. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 23:41:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB3137B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E5443F93; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ggea-0001SW-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:41:00 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:41:00 -0800 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206074100.GB5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> <20030206044625.GA4877@gnuppy.monkey.org> <1037650000.1044509319@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1037650000.1044509319@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 10:28:39PM -0700, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > I think you misunderstand how business works. We could be open (as > open as SASL allows) or closed in our efforts regardless of the > methodology used to create the freely available work that the Foundation > is using as the basis for its binary releases. That is how the Sun > licensing of Java technology works. Its also how BSD works. Again, what your group did was to meddle in a situation that you didn't understand and still don't. This group is open, you funnel money into the group without understanding how it would effect it and simply dismissed your group's responsibility to effectly manage a situations that you simple don't understand. > You are trying to turn this into a power play. I'm sure the FreeBSD > Java group can handle its own politics. The Foundation has no role This is Java politics. This relationship was interrupted and turned into something else as soon as I was left out of the political loop. I've always been apart of it but something happened because somebody, either Nate, Greg and some other phenomenon decided to pull some personal shit that you still don't see or understand being true.. That's still your responsiblity. There's a fire and you folks threw gasoline into it without looking. > to play there and has no interest in it. I'm sorry you believe that Of course you do. > our simplistic goal is causing such strife for you and/or the FreeBSD > Java project. That was not our intent and is not our fault. It's not simple. Your group could potentially funnel millions of dollars into the project if the opportunity was presented and if the management layer (you folks) where . And it's at least half your fault in this matter, the other half is in FreeBSD Java. > And I'm sure the community is grateful for all of your hard work. Regardless, That's completely condescending. > that does not make you any more or less competent than Alexey or a great > many others in the community that understand this technology. Saying Alexey wouldn't have been able to do any of this work and would still be screwing with Linux signal handling instead of having a function VM. For that matter 3/4 of the FreeBSD kernel staff wouldn't have been able to do this work since it's so specialize and esoteric. You have to have a poor technical understanding of this or else you wouldn't be saying this crap. > otherwise is a slight on people you don't even know and a condemnation > of a selection process that you know nothing about. As has been mentioned Saying what otherwise ? that I'm effectively the lead technical engineer on this project, not by choice but by my knowledge in this area. And you absolutely need this or somebody like me for it to be completed. Alexey so far hasn't demonstrated the patience to be able to fixs or locate key bugs in the threading system nor key parts of the HotSpot VM system concerning GC. > several times in this thread, the Foundation is ready to be judged by the > outcome of its initiatives, whether they revolve around Java or other areas > of interest to the FreeBSD community. Ready ? to be judged like in Terminator ? How about feedback on how you folks can deal with the role you already have in a responsible and adult manner ? ... > The group dynamics of the FreeBSD Java project are completely outside > the Foundation's charter. Please launder your own dirty laundry. Charter yes, but effective scope ? no. That's a failure in the understanding how groups like this function and how the lack of structure or a presummed structure. That'a deep dysfunction of your group's role in it. Just because FreeBSD has had less that spectactor leadership over the years doesn't mean that this should be acceptable or chronic to this project. This is VERY bad. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 23:48:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D0637B401 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-115-74-80.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.74.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF38E43FE5 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:48:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3092467B88; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 19DDAE5E; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:48:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:48:38 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Bill Huey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206074837.GA14476@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 08:05:15PM -0800, Bill Huey wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:58:10PM -0800, John Polstra wrote: > > Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. >=20 > Yes, it is. You should have own the fuck up and then changed the > situation and clarified the political structures surrounding this > incredibly poor decision. Wow, what an enormous ego you have. Kris --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QhNVWry0BWjoQKURAsN2AKDO+UGhCsXQBlCPlfl6BHIqg0naOACgoMUX +KXL0Eqf5C0po06HwEOmX9U= =107M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 23:52: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D575137B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E6143F75; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:51:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h167pi2q000542; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:51:45 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:50:37 +0100 To: Bill Huey (Hui) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Cc: Brent Verner , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" , calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:18 PM -0800 2003/02/05, Bill Huey (Hui) wrote: > BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given > the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to > announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. I'm sorry Bill, but your actions in this process leave me feeling rather unsympathetic to you. I understand your level of involvement so far in the JDK, but your incessant use of foul language and your extremely aggressive tone pretty much eliminate any real chance of getting people to buy into your underlying message. I don't agree with John's public posting of the e-mail exchange, at least not so soon in this discussion. However, your decision to take this matter public in your own way kind of absolves him of a lot of guilt on this issue. Maybe John and the FreeBSD Foundation made a mistake in this process. If they did, I'm very sorry. But it's kind of hard to tell what really happened or why, when faced with all your thermonuclear flaming. If I were on the FreeBSD Foundation and I had previous experience with this kind of incredibly rude behaviour from you in the past, I can certainly see how I might be inclined to pick someone else to be chosen as the person we would be paying to do this work. You have done yourself a very grave disservice in this whole process. If your level of contribution so far truly is as extensive as you claim, and there really are so few people in the world who could possibly have a chance of understanding the system, then I do sorely regret your choice in this matter. However, while your anger would seem to be justifiable, your behaviour is not. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 23:55:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EED37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from magic.adaptec.com (magic.adaptec.com [208.236.45.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECC743FD7; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott_long@btc.adaptec.com) Received: from redfish.adaptec.com (redfish.adaptec.com [162.62.50.11]) by magic.adaptec.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h167t4D27765; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.btc.adaptec.com (btc.btc.adaptec.com [10.100.0.52]) by redfish.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04697; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.adaptec.com (hollin [10.100.253.56]) by btc.btc.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29958; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:54:33 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3E4214A8.6080404@btc.adaptec.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:54:16 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021105 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bill Huey (Hui)" Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , "Justin T. Gibbs" , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <994960000.1044505320@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> <20030206044625.GA4877@gnuppy.monkey.org> <1037650000.1044509319@aslan.btc.adaptec.com> <20030206074100.GB5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> In-Reply-To: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill, Why are your feelings hurt? Has the FF taken away your right to hack on the 1.4 sources? Has it? If your happiness in life comes from making the coolest, best, most elite port of the 1.4 sources, then keep on truckin, dude. You're not shy about how smart and clever you are, so I hope to see you succeed. When you're done, you or someone else can host your patches and people can download and build them. Meanwhile, the rest of us that don't care a wit about politics will use whatever Java package works. Having a binary package that can be downloaded and installed without 6 hours of compile time is a huge win for me. But if your work turns out better, then maybe I'll switch yours. Think of the FF as giving all of us choices. Or, think of the FF as giving you a challenge. Can you rise to that challenge, Bill? Scott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 23:57:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5145C37B401; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7485D43FF7; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:57:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ggue-0001Tu-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:57:36 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:57:36 -0800 To: "John L. Utz III" Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner , "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206075736.GC5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 09:36:39PM -0800, John L. Utz III wrote: > But, it seems to me that your snapshot of the discussion lacks context: > > Where's the Request for Proposals? The funny thing is that they are a non-profit and must make this kind of stuff public for whom ever to see. > Where's all the eager emails from the 100's of developers that felt they where > smart enuf to do the job? > > Where's all the wailing and gnashing of teeth email from everybody else that > didnt get the job? > > Where's the msg's that got Mr. Zelkin the job? > > Where's the msg's where Mr. Zelkin said to bill "Dude, umm, just to let you > know, the FBDF is going to *pay* me to work on stuff that you have selflessly > slaved over for thousands of hours pro-bono, and i think it's important that > i, as an *ethical* sort of person, should clue you in."? None of that happened. It was totally done in secret and that's screwed up. > While conceding the possibility of taking you out of context, i want to > address the '100 people could have done this job'(paraprased) statement. Right...(sarcasm) > IMHO, this is not about competency. There may be other, more competent people > than bill ( there are *probably* more competent people then bill, sometimes he > codes kinda' funny ). > > This is about decency. And human relations. And *enthusiasm*, which is really > the only glue that sticks projects together. Absolutely, and to have condescending assholes try and dismiss you when you're "too confrontation" is just crank smoking, prior sucking, cow mad convolving crap. > Bill has busted galactic ass to get us this far. So have lot's of other > people, but it seems like bill was the only stakeholder excluded from the > decisionmaking? If i where him, i'd be achingly pissed off too! Yes, yes and yes. These folks are completely insane that's my conclusion of the matter. It's obviious that they were pretty aware of how this would effect me given how quite they were during this entire process. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0: 7:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8FB37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC3D43F93 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1687Lja091825; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:07:21 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h1687LNZ091824; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:07:21 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1681YaX098917; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:01:34 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302060801.h1681YaX098917@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:53:27 PST." <3E4187D7.26437309@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:01:34 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Mark Murray wrote: > > SysV is NOT BSD-derived. It has _some_ BSD code in it. > > http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d042.htm > > DERIVATIVE WORK - A work based upon one or more preexisting > works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, > dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, > sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, > or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, > or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, > annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as > a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a > 'derivative work'. 17 U.S.C. You are speaking US Law. I am speaking English. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0: 8:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEFF37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA8743F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gh4q-0001Uw-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:08:08 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:08:08 -0800 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brent Verner , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206080808.GD5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:50:37AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > I'm sorry Bill, but your actions in this process leave me feeling > rather unsympathetic to you. I understand your level of involvement > so far in the JDK, but your incessant use of foul language and your > extremely aggressive tone pretty much eliminate any real chance of > getting people to buy into your underlying message. The message is pretty simple and yes, I am pissed. Basically, a few people in the FreeBSD Java group felt threatened by me in some way, held a stupid grudge and then acted out on it when grant politics came around. > I don't agree with John's public posting of the e-mail exchange, > at least not so soon in this discussion. However, your decision to > take this matter public in your own way kind of absolves him of a lot > of guilt on this issue. The tone is irrelevant, he and that group have a responsibility with that money and how it is dealt with in relation to the rest of the FreeBSD project. > Maybe John and the FreeBSD Foundation made a mistake in this > process. If they did, I'm very sorry. But it's kind of hard to tell > what really happened or why, when faced with all your thermonuclear > flaming. It's difficult to keep calm in this situation, you might like to Google for my technical post as to my involvement with this project to see how and why anybody with any genine caring for the success of a project would be pissed if Nate Williams, Greg Lewis and company decided to go behind your back and then pull some political move to exclude me from a political body that I've always been effectvely apart of since the very beginning of my involvement... It's simple not his decision to make behind my and everybody elses back. And with his influence with the FreeBSD Foundation, well... put the two together and you get something pretty sinister looking, whether it's intentional or not. > If I were on the FreeBSD Foundation and I had previous experience > with this kind of incredibly rude behaviour from you in the past, I I mean, I think I have some justification for it. > can certainly see how I might be inclined to pick someone else to be > chosen as the person we would be paying to do this work. They have to deal with this in professional manner, I lightly proded, but got more and more irrational resistence as I kept trying to get a decent answer. Ignoring this doesn't make sense. Turns out, the folks that stabbed me behind my back are in my own group. > You have done yourself a very grave disservice in this whole > process. If your level of contribution so far truly is as extensive > as you claim, and there really are so few people in the world who > could possibly have a chance of understanding the system, then I do > sorely regret your choice in this matter. > > However, while your anger would seem to be justifiable, your > behaviour is not. Then how the hell should I behave in a context with hostile and resistent people ? Allow these folks to walk over me ? bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:10:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D103237B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3701B43F75; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from calvin.austin@sun.com) Received: from ha2sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.61]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12169; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-150-16-31.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.16.31]) by ha2sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h168AcY10297; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E42182A.1CBE7A59@sun.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:09:14 -0800 From: Calvin Austin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9-31 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "(Hui)" Cc: "John L. Utz III" , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill, maybe now is a good time for a break, but don't walk away, you have as much right to be proud of a completed JDK on freebsd as anyone. Don't let this episode cloud the help I know you can bring in the future.... http://www.everypoet.com/archive/poetry/Rudyard_Kipling/kipling_if.htm calvin "John L. Utz III" wrote: > John; > > Thankyou so much for taking the time to summarize the discussion between you > and bill. > > Others have indicated that posting private email is impolitic. That may be > so. Perhaps it might have been best to ask bill before posting, but that seems > somewhat redundant given that the whole thread was about bills desire to > disseminate this discussion to a wider audience. :-) > > Given the heat of the discussion, i can certainly see myself posting it under > the title of 'Bill's Job Interview', but i think that after i thought about it > a while after i wasnt so terribly annoyed by his tack, i'd probably reconsider. > > I am certainly no stranger to going off on people on FreeBSD mailing lists who > have pissed me off. I can recall going absolutely ape on Rod Grimes because he > thought it was ok to snoop on users. ( no, dont start! :-) ) > > And just a few months ago Murray felt it pertinent to reprimand me for an > ad-hominem attack on somebody on freebsd-mobile. > > So, obviously, i share bill's penchant for hyperbole in my > e-disagreements. > > sorry. i wish i was better. i wish he (bill) was better too. > > But, it seems to me that your snapshot of the discussion lacks context: > > Where's the Request for Proposals? > > Where's all the eager emails from the 100's of developers that felt they where > smart enuf to do the job? > > Where's all the wailing and gnashing of teeth email from everybody else that > didnt get the job? > > Where's the msg's that got Mr. Zelkin the job? > > Where's the msg's where Mr. Zelkin said to bill "Dude, umm, just to let you > know, the FBDF is going to *pay* me to work on stuff that you have selflessly > slaved over for thousands of hours pro-bono, and i think it's important that > i, as an *ethical* sort of person, should clue you in."? > > While conceding the possibility of taking you out of context, i want to > address the '100 people could have done this job'(paraprased) statement. > > IMHO, this is not about competency. There may be other, more competent people > than bill ( there are *probably* more competent people then bill, sometimes he > codes kinda' funny ). > > This is about decency. And human relations. And *enthusiasm*, which is really > the only glue that sticks projects together. > > Bill has busted galactic ass to get us this far. So have lot's of other > people, but it seems like bill was the only stakeholder excluded from the > decisionmaking? If i where him, i'd be achingly pissed off too! > > So, the end result is that we get a totally cool 1.4 jdk at long last. > > that's good. > > but we deeply alienate someone who did a lot of work to make that possible. > > that's suboptimal, and it doesnt look like it ever needed to happen. > > yes, i recognize that some folks think that the quality of his work might be > less than optimal, and that his style can be distinctly uncollegial. > > That doesnt diminish his contribution, and i hope that he continues to work on > the jvm despite this *incredibly* *demotivating* experience. > > and i hope he doesnt take my faint dissin' personally. but if he does, tuff > fucking shit! :-) > > i hope that FBSDF takes a slightly more open approach to dolin' out the loot > in the future. > > i take justin's point that running the FBSDF is a lot of work. and i assume that this > probably *wasnt* a 'fuck bill' session, it was just folks trying to get > something done. > > but going slower and being more public would have done a world of good. > > Take the lessons of NASA's shuttle disaster to heart: talk long, talk loud, > talk often. > > i've been on this list for a dang long time now, and this sudden emergence of > 1.4. stuff just seemed really surprising, and now i know why. > > i dont think it was good to be surprised. > > just my us$0.02 > > johnu > freebsd user since october of 1993, aka spaz@u.washington.edu > > At Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:58:10 -0800 (PST), > John Polstra wrote: > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. > > > > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > > here: > > > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > > > Draw your own conclusions. > > > > John > > > > Hui wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 07:10:06AM -0500, Brent Verner wrote: > > >> On the HotSpot note, is there any work being done on getting 1.3.1's > > >> HotSpot working? AFAIR, it would not build with 1.3.1-patchset-7. > > > > > > BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given > > > the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to > > > announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. > > > > > > Found out about something recently that almost certainly was kept purposely > > > from me some how. I haven't figured out where the failure is, so sometime > > > my need to pass before the developments become more clear. > > > > > > The basics are that the FreeBSD Foundation is grossly dysfunctional and > > > should *not* be the corporate entity group to recieve grants. That > > > should be dealt with more directly by the sponsor's management layer > > > if they have a desire to do support FreeBSD development. > > > > > > I'd like to see the removal of John Polstra as Vice President of the > > > organization and for other current or potential sponsors to pressure > > > either a political change or public apology along with an acknowledgement > > > of this leadership failure. > > > > > > There are other failures closer to our group that need to be address > > > too. > > > > > > I'll have an explanation of this soon with a psychological, social and > > > polical analysis of what transpired. It's pretty amazingly fucked up. > > > > > > More to come... > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:12:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD9237B408; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from magic.adaptec.com (magic.adaptec.com [208.236.45.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D2743F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott_long@btc.adaptec.com) Received: from redfish.adaptec.com (redfish.adaptec.com [162.62.50.11]) by magic.adaptec.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h168BeD00237; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.btc.adaptec.com (btc.btc.adaptec.com [10.100.0.52]) by redfish.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10175; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.adaptec.com (hollin [10.100.253.56]) by btc.btc.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29972; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:11:20 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3E421897.5000907@btc.adaptec.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 01:11:03 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021105 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bill Huey (Hui)" Cc: "John L. Utz III" , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> <20030206075736.GC5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> In-Reply-To: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Huey (Hui) wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 09:36:39PM -0800, John L. Utz III wrote: > > >But, it seems to me that your snapshot of the discussion lacks context: > > > >Where's the Request for Proposals? > > > The funny thing is that they are a non-profit and must make this kind of > stuff public for whom ever to see. Can you do us all a favor and look up the legal statutes that dictate this? Not the ones that govern bookkeeping, but the ones that declare that all decisions made by a 501(c)(3) must be open to public comment and approval. I know of several good law libraries in your area, so I doubt it will take you long to look this up. Thanks! Scott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:14: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657A337B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from infinitive.futureperfectcorporation.com (infinitive.futureperfectcorporation.com [196.25.137.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8FF643F85 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com) Received: (qmail 78109 invoked by uid 0); 6 Feb 2003 08:13:24 -0000 Received: from gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com (196.25.137.65) by infinitive.futureperfectcorporation.com with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP; 6 Feb 2003 08:13:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 36279 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 08:17:50 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:17:50 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: John Polstra , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206081750.GB35718@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20030206050728.GA4651@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206050728.GA4651@papagena.rockefeller.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: iTouch Technology and Architectural Services X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2003-02-06 (00:07), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > [cc greatly trimmed] > John Polstra wrote: > > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > > here: > > > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > > > Draw your own conclusions. > > I don't have any conclusions, only a question: is *everyone* at the > top echelons of FreeBSD a complete and utter asshole? I mean, were > you trying hard to be so stuffy, pompous, condescending and rude to a > valuable developer, or do these things just come naturally to you? > And what exactly did you hope to achieve by posting that > correspondence for all to read? Hi Rahul, While John's replies were pretty concise, and not surrounded by the pleasantries everyone seems to require in conversations today, I don't see John saying: "Bill, we don't appreciate your work." "Bill, we didn't like you and so we specifically didn't use you." "Bill, we didn't think you were capable of doing it." "Bill, we thought Alexey was better than you." "Bill, you're obviously an arrogant pratt and we're happy we didn't use you." For what it's worth, I think John did remarkably well considering the extreme abrasiveness (and arrogance) of Bill in this exchange. It starts ``Why the hell was I excluded...''. Then, ``It's unimagineable that folks would overlook me''. Only after calling everyone idiots for not involving him, or corrupt for purposefully avoiding him does he wonder ``is this just an innocent oversight ?''. Less than 17 hours later, he says he's going to ``start slamming folks for being complete fucks up in this regard''. And then goes on about how corrupt everyone else is. Thanks Bill. We don't know how John would've replied if Bill had asked nicely and assumed innocence instead of assuming malintent and calling people names and saying they're corrupt. I'd like to suggest that someone from the Foundation mention why Alexey got the job. For me, ``We know Alexey, we know he can do the job, we know he was available for the work, and we thought it was a great fit'' is good enough. That's been good enough for other work done in the FreeBSD community. Justin Gibbs mentioned that there was a selection process, something slightly more about it would probably help settle things. It's not that I don't sympathise with Bill's feeling that he's been overlooked and mistreated (I feel the same way about my employer), but he can't expect people to be friendly when he's coming out and accusing them of corruption and mismanagement from the start. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:17:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E3D37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0767D43FBF for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:17:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h168HOja091918; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:17:24 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h168HO20091917; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:17:24 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h168EkaX099003; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:14:46 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302060814.h168EkaX099003@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Project status In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:50:01 +0100." Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:14:46 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > At 8:38 PM +0000 2003/02/05, Mark Murray wrote: > > > SysV begat BSD. > > Really? I thought that SysV and BSD both derived from a more > ancient ancestor -- maybe Version 7? Yes, you are correct. I checked, and both sort-of come from v5-v7. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:23:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C2537B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF9043F85 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09497; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:23:03 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030206012100.029d4990@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 01:23:02 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Cc: Mikhail Teterin , chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030206061827.GA4984@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:18 PM 2/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >There's nothing "natural" about rights. The only thing natural is the >animal kingdom, and there are no rights there. Your personal opinion. The US founding founders were strongly influenced by Locke and others. >And don't bother citing the US constitution. The US did not give >rights to a substantial part of its population for nearly 200 years >after independence. Are you suggesting, then, that users of FreeBSD should have as few rights as slaves? That's it, Rahul; you're finally going off the deep end. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:27:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788EB37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6558743FA3; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:27:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 618D1536E; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:27:48 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bill Huey (Hui) Cc: Brent Verner , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:27:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> (Bill Huey's message of "Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:18:23 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Huey (Hui) writes: > BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given > the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to > announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. Patches? Resignation? In order to withhold patches, you'd have to *have* patches first: des@freefall /home/gnats/gnats-adm% grep Huey index ; echo end ports/44481|current-users|obrien|closed|no|serious|medium|0|||1035601201|1043778680|1043778680|sw-bug|Bill Huey|-stable|lang/gcc32 failed to build end and in order to resign you'd have to be a member first: des@freefall /home/gnats/gnats-adm% finger bill | grep Login ; echo end Login: billf Name: Bill Fumerola Login: fenner Name: Bill Fenner Login: unfurl Name: Bill Swingle Login: wpaul Name: Bill Paul end so cut the drama queen act already. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:29:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F9637B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from magic.adaptec.com (magic.adaptec.com [208.236.45.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA3C43F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:29:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott_long@btc.adaptec.com) Received: from redfish.adaptec.com (redfish.adaptec.com [162.62.50.11]) by magic.adaptec.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h168SnD02219; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.btc.adaptec.com (btc.btc.adaptec.com [10.100.0.52]) by redfish.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14795; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from btc.adaptec.com (hollin [10.100.253.56]) by btc.btc.adaptec.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29977; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:28:19 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3E421C93.4040807@btc.adaptec.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 01:28:03 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021105 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bill Huey (Hui)" Cc: Brad Knowles , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206080808.GD5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> In-Reply-To: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Huey (Hui) wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:50:37AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > I'm sorry Bill, but your actions in this process leave me feeling > >rather unsympathetic to you. I understand your level of involvement > >so far in the JDK, but your incessant use of foul language and your > >extremely aggressive tone pretty much eliminate any real chance of > >getting people to buy into your underlying message. > > > The message is pretty simple and yes, I am pissed. Basically, a few > people in the FreeBSD Java group felt threatened by me in some way, > held a stupid grudge and then acted out on it when grant politics came > around. > > > > I don't agree with John's public posting of the e-mail exchange, > >at least not so soon in this discussion. However, your decision to > >take this matter public in your own way kind of absolves him of a lot > >of guilt on this issue. > > > The tone is irrelevant, he and that group have a responsibility with > that money and how it is dealt with in relation to the rest of the > FreeBSD project. > > > > Maybe John and the FreeBSD Foundation made a mistake in this > >process. If they did, I'm very sorry. But it's kind of hard to tell > >what really happened or why, when faced with all your thermonuclear > >flaming. > > > It's difficult to keep calm in this situation, you might like to Google > for my technical post as to my involvement with this project to see how > and why anybody with any genine caring for the success of a project would > be pissed if Nate Williams, Greg Lewis and company decided to go behind > your back and then pull some political move to exclude me from a political > body that I've always been effectvely apart of since the very beginning > of my involvement... > > It's simple not his decision to make behind my and everybody elses back. > And with his influence with the FreeBSD Foundation, well... put the two > together and you get something pretty sinister looking, whether it's > intentional or not. > > > > If I were on the FreeBSD Foundation and I had previous experience > >with this kind of incredibly rude behaviour from you in the past, I > > > I mean, I think I have some justification for it. > > > >can certainly see how I might be inclined to pick someone else to be > >chosen as the person we would be paying to do this work. > > > They have to deal with this in professional manner, I lightly proded, > but got more and more irrational resistence as I kept trying to get a > decent answer. Ignoring this doesn't make sense. Turns out, the folks > that stabbed me behind my back are in my own group. The 'lightly prodded' part is patently untrue. Scott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:34:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F5B37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from over18dvd.com (lsanca1-ar16-4-46-036-224.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.36.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B50C43F75 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:34:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@over18dvd.com) Reply-To: phil@over18dvd.comm From: yuka To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ÀϺ» ¼ºÀÎ DVD ÆǸÅ(¼ºÀα¤°í) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:34:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="euc-kr" Message-Id: <20030206083422.4B50C43F75@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¾È³çÇϼ¼¿ä?

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¼ö½Å°ÅºÎ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:35:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6A237B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF8443F85; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:35:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ghVg-0001Xo-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:35:52 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:35:52 -0800 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206083552.GA5935@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 09:27:48AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > *have* patches first: > > des@freefall /home/gnats/gnats-adm% grep Huey index ; echo end > ports/44481|current-users|obrien|closed|no|serious|medium|0|||1035601201|1043778680|1043778680|sw-bug|Bill Huey|-stable|lang/gcc32 failed to build > end > > and in order to resign you'd have to be a member first: Right, you have to have CVS access to our server at skul.freebsd.org an account and a clue. BTW, I don't do -stable work, so take that grep else where. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:37:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC51A37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC8C43FBD; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ghXX-0001Y3-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:37:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:37:47 -0800 To: Scott Long Cc: freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, jdp@polstra.com, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206083747.GB5935@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206080808.GD5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> <3E421C93.4040807@btc.adaptec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E421C93.4040807@btc.adaptec.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 01:28:03AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > >They have to deal with this in professional manner, I lightly proded, > >but got more and more irrational resistence as I kept trying to get a > >decent answer. Ignoring this doesn't make sense. Turns out, the folks > >that stabbed me behind my back are in my own group. > > The 'lightly prodded' part is patently untrue. Ok, flat out proded, but he still shouldn't have resisted in that way and shut off. It's a pretty selfish reaction given what he's responsible for... bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:47:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C958D37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB39843F3F; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:47:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h168lMja092221; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:47:22 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h168lMtA092220; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:47:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h168ffaX099401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:41:41 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: John Polstra Cc: billh@gnuppy.monkey.org (Hui), bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:58:10 PST." Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:41:41 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Polstra writes: > Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. > > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > here: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > Draw your own conclusions. Wow. Bad luck, John. Its disgusting that you should be subjected to this kind of abuse. Not all of us think as Bill does. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 1: 1:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5677837B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4AB43F3F; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ghuU-0001bn-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 01:01:30 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:01:30 -0800 To: Mark Murray Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:41:41AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > Wow. Bad luck, John. Its disgusting that you should be subjected to > this kind of abuse. > > Not all of us think as Bill does. That's a useless comment on your part. If you don't have anything to say that's constructive, then frankly shut the fuck up. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 1:26:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9408C37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com [12.234.22.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B44843F93 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from slave.gorean.org (qa7rs05vgsrtcb8n@slave.gorean.org [10.0.0.1]) by 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h169QPh9052606 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:26:22 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> Message-ID: <20030206005639.V40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> <20030205140726.407e150a.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [Please respect reply-to chat@freebsd.org, thanks] I'd like to make a point that I think is being overlooked here regarding exactly what a "commit bit" means. It simply means that the person has (essentially) unfettered access to commit code directly to the tree. For all intents and purposes, it's a matter of convenience. Personally, I was a contributor to the project for many years before people got tired of committing stuff for me, and they told me to do my own darn work. :) Unfortunately, for a number of complex reasons, some of which have been described publicly, and some of which are not appropriate to describe publicly, the core team decided that it's no longer appropriate for Matt to have this access to the cvs tree. This does _not_ mean that Matt's past contributions are not appreciated; or that future contributions, should he choose to make them, won't be welcomed. Matt's status in the project is exactly the same right now as the thousands of other contributors to the project who are not committers. Personally, I hope that Matt does choose to contribute to the project again in the future, but I respect his decision either way. Finally, I'd like to encourage everyone who thinks they have a contribution to make to give it their best shot. :) Don't make "getting a commit bit" your goal. If it turns out that having commit privileges is a good role for you, it will be thrust upon... I mean, offered to you. If not, don't be offended, or think we don't like you. Some of our most valued contributors don't have (usually because they don't want) one either. On the other hand, one sure way to irritate people is to focus on what you think the project "owes" you. You are owed exactly what we promised... namely all the pieces of the project; code, docs, ports, ideas, and technology (sorry, no fairings), all free for you to take and do with whatever you please. We definitely _try_ to make a system that is high quality, reliable, and responsive to the needs of our users (as we understand them). But at the end of the day, you get exactly what you paid for. And welcome to it. :) Hope this helps, Doug - -- If it's moving, encrypt it. If it's not moving, encrypt it till it moves, then encrypt it some more. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QipByIakK9Wy8PsRAoDfAJ0R8bIOU+5naYNGwoPyNebplj2snQCgp1qG ku3PeKcBc+S5cSCK6CT8mIA= =UMAV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 6: 4:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65E637B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD8543F85 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gmdX-0007Zw-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 06:04:19 -0800 Received: (qmail 5558 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 14:04:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:04:14 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mikhail Teterin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Message-ID: <20030206140414.GA5520@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030206012100.029d4990@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030206012100.029d4990@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Feb 6, 2003 at 01:23:02: > >And don't bother citing the US constitution. The US did not give > >rights to a substantial part of its population for nearly 200 years > >after independence. > > Are you suggesting, then, that users of FreeBSD should have > as few rights as slaves? > > That's it, Rahul; you're finally going off the deep end. Who's going off the deep end? Are you suggesting that it's actually possible to enslave you as a user of FreeBSD? Are you chained to your computer by Mark Murray or Greg Lehey, who will come by and shoot you if you try and "escape" to another operating system? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 6:18: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1945937B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C9B43FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gmqr-00006y-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 06:18:05 -0800 Received: (qmail 5653 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 14:18:01 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:18:01 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: John Polstra , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206141801.GA5599@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030206050728.GA4651@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030206081750.GB35718@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206081750.GB35718@mithrandr.moria.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neil Blakey-Milner said on Feb 6, 2003 at 10:17:50: > While John's replies were pretty concise, and not surrounded by the > pleasantries everyone seems to require in conversations today, I don't > see John saying: > > "Bill, we don't appreciate your work." > "Bill, we didn't like you and so we specifically didn't use you." > "Bill, we didn't think you were capable of doing it." > "Bill, we thought Alexey was better than you." > "Bill, you're obviously an arrogant pratt and we're happy we didn't use > you." No, he didn't say any of that (should I have expected him to?) And I agree Bill's mails were quite atrocious. However, Bill's feelings were legitimately hurt at not being consulted (he says he was looking to be part of the process, after contributing so much, not necessarily looking for the job itself). Bill's first two mails, while unnecessarily threatening, ask nothing more than an explanation for this. To that, Polstra sees it fit to reply, in essence, "I don't have to tell you anything." (ie, to quote, "We are answerable to our donors" and "there are easily a hundred people who could have done this".) He can at least try and mollify a ruffled developer, but ideally he can give him some details of the process. In fact, ideally a significant contributor would not have been excluded from the process in the first place. This is about human relations -- the guy at the top, who *should* be emotionally stable, dealing with a talented worker who's not necessarily emotionally stable. I wouldn't be so outraged if Polstra weren't VP of the FreeBSD Foundation (and reminded you of that in every signature). Someone in that position should learn to deal with upset colleagues a bit better than telling them that he doesn't care how they feel, it's not his responsibility. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 6:30:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F220937B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888C543FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:30:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18gn3C-000319-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 06:30:50 -0800 Received: (qmail 5746 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Feb 2003 14:30:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:30:47 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mikhail Teterin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Message-ID: <20030206143046.GA5694@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205230831.029f6520@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030206012100.029d4990@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030206012100.029d4990@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Feb 6, 2003 at 01:23:02: > > Are you suggesting, then, that users of FreeBSD should have > as few rights as slaves? To parody you a bit: FreeBSD team: "Here, come and have lunch with us every day. It's free." Brett Glass: "But I don't like the menu! I don't like your cooks! Who chose your head cooks?" FreeBSD team: "We did." Brett Glass: "That's undemocratic! Where are my rights as an eater here? I should be allowed to elect the head cooks!" FreeBSD team: "It's not realistic to get you to elect the cooks, but as a valued diner, your suggestions and feedback are invaluable. We'll try and think of some way to give you more avenues for feedback, and more recognition as a regular eater. Any ideas?" Brett Glass: "No, I want the right to elect your cooks! It's true your food is free, but I've been driving here at my expense every day, I have a huge investment in you, I deserve this! You're trying to enslave me! Where are my democratic rights? Give me freedom and liberty!" What the FreeBSD core members have *not* said on this list yet, though anyone with half a wit would have got the message already is, FreeBSD team: "Brett, if you don't like our food, don't eat here." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 6:55:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC63137B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C1943F85 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h16EtrOs021857; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:53 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h16Etp3j021854; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:52 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:51 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030206010919.90459.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030206155440.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > --- Narvi ha scritto: > > > ... > > he is just plain wrong. In fact, looking into the > > very issue of 'linux on > > desktop' on kernel traffic is stupid. The overlap > > between people who have > > a clue about linux kernel and linux desktop is very > > small. > > > And that's part of the problem. Everyone kept thinking > that making UNIX a good desktop was a matter of having > Star Office and Wordperfect. No clue there :(. > True - but you don't want to try it without having an office suite either, or your target audience is going to be pitifully small. But its stillonly a relatively small part of what you need to have a desktop. > > Oh - and I actually work for a company that does > > unix on desktop & is > > going to release a linux desktop. > > > > Good luck.. honest! It's a tough market. > Thanx 8-) I know - but being a large company helps a bit though. Btw,its interesting there is nobody putting together a coherent well-designed BSD based desktop as a single package. While there is most probably no money in this, it would be an interesting excerice/project. > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 7: 0:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC9B37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A75F43FB1 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:00:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h16F0fXc019365 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9W71500.5RR; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:00:41 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:00:37 -0500 Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Narvi From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030206155440.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 09:55 AM, Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > >> --- Narvi ha scritto: > >> >> ... >>> he is just plain wrong. In fact, looking into the >>> very issue of 'linux on >>> desktop' on kernel traffic is stupid. The overlap >>> between people who have >>> a clue about linux kernel and linux desktop is very >>> small. >>> >> And that's part of the problem. Everyone kept thinking >> that making UNIX a good desktop was a matter of having >> Star Office and Wordperfect. No clue there :(. >> > > True - but you don't want to try it without having an office > suite either, or your target audience is going to be pitifully > small. But its stillonly a relatively small part of what you > need to have a desktop. > >>> Oh - and I actually work for a company that does >>> unix on desktop & is >>> going to release a linux desktop. >>> >> >> Good luck.. honest! It's a tough market. >> > > Thanx 8-) I know - but being a large company helps a bit though. > > Btw,its interesting there is nobody putting together a coherent > well-designed BSD based desktop as a single package. While there > is most probably no money in this, it would be an interesting > excerice/project. > This is probably the most important aspect of any desktop. A coherent system. A desktop needs consistency, ease of use and applications. Sometime too much choice is just as bad, or worse, than no choice at all. I want to be able to setup a system that will look and feel the same for 99% of cases. I want to be able to use quicken, or word, or that cool photo app. I want my itunes, my instant messenger. That is what people say. Most don't have the time or care to get deeply involved in their computer, they want it to be just another electronic device they use, like a vcr, or a tv. So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole want to target this user audience? Is there the collective will to make that a reality? If the answer is no, I would think resources are best directed elsewhere perhaps? - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkJ4mOeV8VtPCL3dEQJOOACgtbYYSIpzWSIYWajz0b8SAqTCrYYAoIbv xqGiEys1ad/X51fjyd3F8wKa =ZBEV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 7:32:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38E237B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (aldan.algebra.com [216.254.65.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD0C43FCB for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:32:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h16FW2iC089928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:32:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h16FW1Lx089927; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:32:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: legitimacy of core (Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:31:57 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205174625.029e7ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030205195726.00e5b5a0@localhost> X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7whJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 05 February 2003 10:00 pm, Brett Glass wrote: = At 07:08 PM 2/5/2003, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = >Now, that you've conceded, that the popular vote was not supposed to = >affect the choice of president, you should apologise for your attempt = >to mislead your audience into thinking, it was :-) = = I was not being misleading. You accused GWB of becoming a president _against_ the popular vote. That implied, the popular vote was supposed decide something. Now that I squeezed you, you conceded, that it was not, but instead -- _in your opinion_ -- it should have been. That substitution of your opinion for laws and facts is what was misleading. Since you yourself _knew_ the laws and the facts, apparently, the misleading was intentional :-( = I consider the Electoral College to be a bug, not a feature. As you = may recall, it was created due to elitism on the part of the Founding = Fathers; they believed that there had to be a layer of protection = against the "rabble" making a poor decision. No, it was designed to keep more value in being a separate state. The "rabble" can still make a poor decision -- in selecting the delegates. (It is adorable, that you stand up for the "rabble", but the fear of it is quite justified -- if you know about the Socrates' fate, for example.) = 200 years later, experience worldwide has shown that direct suffrage = works best. Where? How do you come to that? On the contrary, US being the most powerfull country for most of the last 100 years, I'd say _our_ system works best. = >= Nor should the president be chosen by the Supreme Court. = >Better that than a lot of other possibilities. (Ivory Coast? = >Venezuella?) = Or the current means of choosing -core (he says, trying to get the = conversation back on topic). You've already admitted, you don't know, how core is chosen. And the cabal intends to keep you in the dark... Your FreeBSD-related questions in this thread were already answered, it seems, so I'll try to restrain myself from continuing off-topic on this list. Yours, -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 7:33:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB3737B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721B343FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h16FXlOs022960; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:33:47 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h16FXksd022957; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:33:46 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:33:46 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Larry Sica Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030206170542.T43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > This is probably the most important aspect of any desktop. A coherent > system. A desktop needs consistency, ease of use and applications. > > Sometime too much choice is just as bad, or worse, than no choice at > all. I want to be able to setup a system that will look and feel the > same for 99% of cases. I want to be able to use quicken, or word, or > that cool photo app. I want my itunes, my instant messenger. That is > what people say. Most don't have the time or care to get deeply > involved in their computer, they want it to be just another electronic > device they use, like a vcr, or a tv. > > So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole want to target this > user audience? Is there the collective will to make that a reality? > If the answer is no, I would think resources are best directed > elsewhere perhaps? > There is no point in dragging - or trying to drag - FreeBSD as a whole into this. Its not useful and furthermore not the way things get done. They way to get things done is: * find similarily minded people who want to see it happen * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly your target audience is * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from the first two parts to end up with a desktop package But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE (alphabetical ordering). > - --Larry > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta > > iQA/AwUBPkJ4mOeV8VtPCL3dEQJOOACgtbYYSIpzWSIYWajz0b8SAqTCrYYAoIbv > xqGiEys1ad/X51fjyd3F8wKa > =ZBEV > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 7:33:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0468037B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13404.mail.yahoo.com (web13404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C68C43F3F for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:33:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030206153357.49090.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.176] by web13404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 16:33:57 CET Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:33:57 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) To: Larry Sica , Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Larry Sica ha scritto: > ----- ... > > So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole > want to target this > user audience? Is there the collective will to make > that a reality? > If the answer is no, I would think resources are > best directed > elsewhere perhaps? > Not really, but that doesn't mean FreeBSD can't offer the tools to do that in a future. Right now I would prefer we provide more tools for the embedded market.. ATM.. video broadcasting systems in a metro near you, etc .. ;) cheers, Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 8:11:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7613B37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1365043F85 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:11:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h16GBYOs023477; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:11:35 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h16GBXkV023474; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:11:33 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:11:33 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: Larry Sica , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030206153357.49090.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030206180952.O43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > --- Larry Sica ha scritto: > ----- > ... > > > > So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole > > want to target this > > user audience? Is there the collective will to make > > that a reality? > > If the answer is no, I would think resources are > > best directed > > elsewhere perhaps? > > > Not really, but that doesn't mean FreeBSD can't offer > the tools to do that in a future. Right now I would > prefer we provide more tools for the embedded market.. > ATM.. video broadcasting systems in a metro near you, > etc .. ;) > seeing as there are well-maintained packages of many "desktopy" things, obviously not everybody agrees. > cheers, > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 9: 8:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BC037B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from jupiter-mail.linuxengine.net (jupiter-mail.linuxengine.net [65.61.129.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2354043F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:08:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@utzweb.net) Received: from john.utzweb.net.utzweb.net (12-212-100-69.client.attbi.com [12.212.100.69]) by jupiter-mail.linuxengine.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h16H8EAd001521; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:08:15 -0600 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:08:31 -0800 Message-ID: <86y94tmj5c.wl@utweb.net> From: "John L. Utz III" To: Bill Huey (Hui) Cc: Mark Murray , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, calvin.austin@sun.com, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus-pre4) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.4 () IN_REP_TO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill, this is the behavior that is your undoing. Mark's point is just as valid as anybody else's. And there is no point to trying to squash people who disagree with you. you are guilty of the behavior you claim to abhor! At Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:01:30 -0800, Hui wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:41:41AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > Wow. Bad luck, John. Its disgusting that you should be subjected to > > this kind of abuse. > > > > Not all of us think as Bill does. > > That's a useless comment on your part. If you don't have anything to > say that's constructive, then frankly shut the fuck up. > > bill > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 9:59:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7B037B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D7143F75 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:59:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gqJ6-0004UU-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:59:28 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD desktop (was: GGI (was: Project Status)) In-Reply-To: <20030206155440.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Narvi wrote: > Btw,its interesting there is nobody putting together a coherent > well-designed BSD based desktop as a single package. While there > is most probably no money in this, it would be an interesting > excerice/project. Have a look at the *BSD-based CD-based, memory-based projects. Several people have made reasonable desktops. In fact, I made mine almost a year ago and have used the CD many times for teaching classes (for myself and my students), giving presentations, and for general BSD advocacy. It includes XFree86 with several default configurations for a wide variety of video/monitors (using VESA/IBM standards) which is useful since I sometimes don't know what type of hardware/video projection I will be using. Also includes a couple window managers with ready-to-use menus, Abiword, and various other desktop (and rescue) tools. (Daemon News was selling my CD bundled with a past NetBSD release.) Other live CDs have KDE and other software. On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Narvi wrote: > * find similarily minded people who want to see it happen Check the mailing list archives; a few others have started projects, websites, and discussions for doing this for a few years. (Search for homebsd and zebsd, for example.) > * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly > your target audience is My wife. My mom. My sister-in-law. :) (My wife already uses X, blackbox, vnc, and sylpheed. My mom's been using open source Unix for several years for everything. And my in-laws have been unknowingly and entirely using NetBSD for a year.) > * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from > the first two parts to end up with a desktop package The software is already available. The packages/ports are done. > But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky > decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE > (alphabetical ordering). It is not a lot of work (unless done by one person). I think it only needs a few things: 1) Nice-looking GUI installer. But it can be very simple: don't give the user very many choices. (If they want choices, let it fall back to sysinstall.) For example, no fdisk slicing or disklabeling. Just tell the user that it will be installed on entire disk. Or tell the user that certain partitions are available and ask which to use. Don't ask the user (during install) to choose software. Just install! Do ask the user for username, password and for a password for doing "administration tasks". ("Some computer tasks will require an additional administrator password. Please enter ...") 2) Make sure all menus are clearly preset. The software to install should be decided, but not too many options. Then make sure it works correctly, such as double-clicking on a mpeg should play it. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 10: 1:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7F137B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9A243FB1 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:01:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gqKk-0004Uu-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:01:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:01:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD desktop (was: GGI (was: Project Status)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > homebsd and zebsd, for example.) s/ze/ez To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 10:41:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6D737B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wall.polstra.com (wall-gw.polstra.com [206.213.73.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05BAD43F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from strings.polstra.com (strings.polstra.com [206.213.73.20]) by wall.polstra.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h16IfOu4036651; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.1 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:41:24 -0800 (PST) Organization: Polstra & Co., Inc. From: John Polstra To: "John L. Utz III" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Cc: Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, There have, not surprisingly, been quite a few follow-ups to this thread. In this mail I would like to answer the main questions and issues that have been raised by various people. I'll start with the easiest one. Some of you have taken me to task for putting private e-mails on the web page. The fact is that Bill's public attack on me stems from those e-mails. They contain the history of this issue. In transforming a simple, everyday hiring decision into a public attack on the FreeBSD Foundation and on me personally, Bill threw the rules of etiquette out the window. If Bill wants this to be public then it is _all_ going to be public. Some will disagree with this, but I can live with that. The e-mails will stay on the web page until I no longer feel the need to defend my actions in public. One person criticized the title I put on the web page. His point is well taken. The whole day yesterday was so utterly surreal that I guess I needed a small dose of comic relief. That was inappropriate, and I have changed the title to "Mail". Among several of you there seems to be some confusion about the obligations of a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization such as the FreeBSD Foundation with regard to contracting. A 501(c)(3) is not a branch of the US government; it is simply a corporation which, under the rules laid down by the IRS, has qualified as a tax-exempt charitable organization. While departments of the US government have many hiring regulations involving public bidding processes, civil service points, minority preferences, incentives of various kinds, etc., those rules have nothing to do with 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations. Furthermore, it is not standard practice among 501(c)(3)s to put out public bids for contracts. At the Foundation we hire pretty much the same way any other tiny corporation hires, and that is the standard practice among non-profits. Now I will go over the history of this particular hiring decision. As most of you know, the Foundation finalized a license agreement in December, 2001 with Sun Microsystems to allow us to distribute a FreeBSD version of the JDK and JRE. As part of that agreement, Sun requires that the distribution pass the full suite of tests in their Technology Compliance Kit (TCK). That sounds simple, but in fact it is a very difficult process and I am told that it typically takes a year or more to complete it. Now fast-forward about a year, to some time around the end of 2002. We at the Foundation were feeling a bit embarrassed. We had announced the license agreement with great fanfare a year before, and it naturally raised expectations that a release of the software was imminent. I can lay claim to some blame for that, as I myself thought that the software would be released very quickly. I did not understand at that time what a challenge the TCK was. So, some time in the final months of 2002 I asked the other Foundation board members if perhaps we could help move things along by funding somebody to work on getting the JDK and JRE to a point where it could be released. They agreed that it would be a good use of Foundation funds, and so we started working on it. Throughout the process of getting the license with Sun, we had had two contacts within the FreeBSD Java team: Greg and Nate. We had (and still have) a good relationship with both of them. We asked one or both of them (I don't remember for sure, and I doesn't seem worth digging through the mail archives to find out) whether it might help progress if we funneled some funding into the effort. The reply was affirmative, and we asked for recommendations. Both Greg and Nate agreed that Alexey would be a good person for the job. (This turned out to be a valuable recommendation, and we couldn't be more pleased with his work.) We initiated discussions with Alexey, worked out the contractual details, etc., and he went to work on it full time. Since then he has made great progress, and he has kept us up-to-date with status reports. That was the state of things at the beginning of this week. Now let me make something perfectly clear. When we asked for recommendations, Bill Huey's name never came up. He wasn't mentioned. As far as I know, I had never even heard his name before -- certainly not in any context that would cause me to remember it. Then, out of the blue, we received his first e-mail on Tuesday. It was absolutely baffling to all of us at the Foundation. Here was this profanity-laden flame from a perfect stranger, demanding an explanation for the fact that we hadn't hired him! The rest of the history is documented in the e-mails, which most of you have already seen. To re-iterate: msg01.txt was the first I had ever heard of Bill Huey. How would you feel in my position? Frankly, my first reaction was, "Thank GOD we didn't hire that guy!" Some of you have criticized the terseness of my replies to Bill. I hope this context will help you to understand it a little better. My very first contact with the fellow came in the form of a flame from him. This was followed 18 hours later by a second mail which contained an explicit threat. I don't think anybody knows for sure how to deal with a person who's in that state of mind. It seemed to me that the least harmful approach would be to avoid escalating the situation. So I sent him the briefest, most emotion-free reply I could manage, and in the subsequent mail I tried to keep things strictly on a professional level. We could talk all day long about whether that was the right approach or not. I did my best, and I am proud of the fact that I didn't let Bill drag me down to his level of discourse. On to a related topic ... Some people, Bill included, took offense at my statement, "Bill, there are easily a hundred people who could have done this work, but we could only hire one of them." This was in no way intended to be disparaging toward any Java developer; nor was it meant as any kind of insult. I am sorry that some people took it that way, and I'll try to learn how to express myself better in the future. The point I was trying to make was simply that if we hired one person, there were going to be a whole bunch of other qualified people that we _didn't_ hire. Bill was one of those. For whatever reason, he's the only one who took it as a personal affront. I actually am fairly confident that there are a hundred people in the world who could do the job. I mean -- come on, people! In the whole world? Of course there are! But honestly, the number doesn't matter for the point I was trying to make unless you think the number is 1 -- in which case you'll get nothing but a hearty belly laugh from me. I have just one other thing I'd like to say as I end this lengthy e-mail. We at the FreeBSD Foundation are volunteers who are simply trying to do something for the benefit of the FreeBSD Project. We don't get paid. In fact, we donate money as well as time to the Foundation. It is a rewarding job, at times, but frankly it isn't much fun. The Internet is a big place, and there is always somebody out there who can manage to view just about anything as a conspiracy. There is really nothing I can do about such people. I just try to keep my cool and do my best, knowing full well that I can't please everybody. Well, that's about it. I think I have said just about everything I can say on this topic. I am most likely not going to write any more about it. I just don't see the point of writing if there's nothing new to say. As I said at the very beginning: draw your own conclusions. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 10:44:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2896637B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:44:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13402.mail.yahoo.com (web13402.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0C6443F3F for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030206184449.69632.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.244] by web13402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:44:49 CET Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:44:49 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) To: Narvi Cc: Larry Sica , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030206180952.O43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Narvi ha scritto: > ... > > seeing as there are well-maintained packages of many > "desktopy" > things, obviously not everybody agrees. > The KDE and GNOME people have made a brave effort to keep us up to date, but by "integrated effort" I understand a lot more. In fact I'm tired of complaining about the brokeness of the ports distribution as a single tarball and it's poor integration with sysinstall. The future desktop, for me, will be MachOS X. Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:24:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8896C37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2183543F3F for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:24:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h16JNV140963; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:23:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:23:31 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Software for sheilas [was: BSD desktop] Message-ID: <20030207062331.F33743@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030206155440.M43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 09:59:28AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 09:59:28AM -0800, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Narvi wrote: > > > * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly > > your target audience is > > My wife. My mom. My sister-in-law. :) No go here. Those types of people, at least in my family, want to use their computers to assist with a range of craft and homey activities (knitting, sewing, crochet, design, pattern drafting, etc) for which alas there is no software. Not even a category in ports, or on sourceforge. There's a lot of software available for them on other platforms but AFAICS no *nix. I've been tempted to resurrect an old win3.1 or MacOS box so my mother has some "interesting" software to play with while she's here because she's getting sick of solitaire and nothing else appeals, and I can still get a few examples of what she wants for win3.1. Later Microsofts would offer the complete range, but she doesnt' know that yet :-) Nobody else seems to be missing these programs, especially programmers, so it's unlikely that there will be a surge of them in the near future. There's nothing wrong with people using the best available tool for the job they want to do, even if the best isn't very good. For me BSD is the best tool for the job of being a server and a desktop, but that's not going to work out the same for everybody, especially people like my Mum. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:27:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA58E37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2916743F3F for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:27:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C0C3F54; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:27:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Sue Blake Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 14:29:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Software for sheilas [was: BSD desktop] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3E42712F.25344.A121F53A@localhost> In-reply-to: <20030207062331.F33743@welearn.com.au> References: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 09:59:28AM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Feb 2003 at 6:23, Sue Blake wrote: > There's nothing wrong with people using the best available tool for the > job they want to do, even if the best isn't very good. For me BSD is the > best tool for the job of being a server and a desktop, but that's not > going to work out the same for everybody, especially people like my Mum. Agreed. My mum would have trouble with a mouse regardless of the GUI used. At present, she is using pine, and she has trouble with that one. What I need is a very simple and easy to use interface. Pine is not that. Before you flame, first consider that you are actually a very experience computer user. Especially when compared to my mum. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:34:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92EB237B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C5F43FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h16JYj9J024886 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9WJPX00.K3K; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:34:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:34:36 -0500 Subject: Re: BSD desktop (was: GGI (was: Project Status)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: "Jeremy C. Reed" From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <064CB153-3A0A-11D7-B89B-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 12:59 PM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Narvi wrote: > g list archives; a few others have started projects, > websites, and discussions for doing this for a few years. (Search for > homebsd and zebsd, for example.) > >> * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly >> your target audience is > > My wife. My mom. My sister-in-law. :) > > (My wife already uses X, blackbox, vnc, and sylpheed. My mom's been > using > open source Unix for several years for everything. And my in-laws have > been unknowingly and entirely using NetBSD for a year.) > >> * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come >> from >> the first two parts to end up with a desktop package > > The software is already available. The packages/ports are done. > What is needed is a good interface to it, both aesthetically, and technically as well as a stable method. >> But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky >> decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE >> (alphabetical ordering). > > It is not a lot of work (unless done by one person). I think it only > needs > a few things: > > 1) Nice-looking GUI installer. But it can be very simple: don't give > the > user very many choices. (If they want choices, let it fall back to > sysinstall.) For example, no fdisk slicing or disklabeling. Just tell > the user that it will be installed on entire disk. Or tell the user > that > certain partitions are available and ask which to use. > > Don't ask the user (during install) to choose software. Just install! > Yes I agree here, the base os shouldn't need 100000 options on install. Ideally it should just install everything for you, setting up disks and only asking for your personal information. > Do ask the user for username, password and for a password for doing > "administration tasks". ("Some computer tasks will require an > additional > administrator password. Please enter ...") > One could take a nod from apple here. It only asks for a password if you tell it you want to be asked for login, and will then ask for administrative tasks. It presents setting this up in a very friendly way as well. > 2) Make sure all menus are clearly preset. > > The software to install should be decided, but not too many options. > Then make sure it works correctly, such as double-clicking on a mpeg > should play it. > Install the basics, if someone really wants more they can install it later. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkK40OeV8VtPCL3dEQJVhwCg6H1SNBqA3mp66ST/HdepAau+0foAn3Eo hM35WEHSgrPEnbX1G7fIMR6p =EBea -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:43:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A095237B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E6D43F75 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:43:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h16JhKOs025389; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 21:43:21 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h16JhJq7025386; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 21:43:19 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 21:43:19 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Cc: Larry Sica , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20030206184449.69632.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030206212008.B43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > --- Narvi ha scritto: > > ... > > > > seeing as there are well-maintained packages of many > > "desktopy" > > things, obviously not everybody agrees. > > > > The KDE and GNOME people have made a brave effort to > keep us up to date, but by "integrated effort" I > understand a lot more. In fact I'm tired of > complaining about the brokeness of the ports > distribution as a single tarball and it's poor > integration with sysinstall. > True - and it is a good basis to build something on top. Btw, the ports collection is not something you need to worry about - its definately not for end users > The future desktop, for me, will be MachOS X. > You know, oddly enough, a lot of people are going that way... > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:49:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FB737B405; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound.ea.com (outbound.ea.com [159.153.6.29]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0F644017; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from JSchnitzer@maxis.com) Received: from eahq-bh3.rws.ad.ea.com (eahq-bh3.rws.ad.ea.com [10.14.204.35]) by outbound.ea.com (Switch-3.0.1/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id h16JmW62009456; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:48:10 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Thread-Index: AcLOD5hK7O2odSzNRj+B6mfO3j02RQAAQ1Bw From: "Schnitzer, Jeff" To: "John Polstra" Cc: , Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: John Polstra [mailto:jdp@polstra.com] >=20 > I have just one other thing I'd like to say as I end this lengthy > e-mail. We at the FreeBSD Foundation are volunteers who are simply > trying to do something for the benefit of the FreeBSD Project. We > don't get paid. In fact, we donate money as well as time to the > Foundation. It is a rewarding job, at times, but frankly it isn't > much fun. The Internet is a big place, and there is always somebody > out there who can manage to view just about anything as a > conspiracy. There is really nothing I can do about such people. I > just try to keep my cool and do my best, knowing full well that I > can't please everybody. You blew it. People contribute their time and effort to open source projects for a lot of reasons, but chief among them is recognition. You got an angry piece of mail from a contributor who felt unappreciated by your actions - and what was your response? It could have been "I'm sorry, who are you? Please explain." Instead you gave him a brush-off. Maybe the guy has legitimate reasons for being irate, maybe he doesn't, but you didn't even ask. It doesn't matter who "could" do the work, it matters who IS doing the work. From following freebsd-java, it's obvious there are at most two or three people putting significant effort into the project. Now there is one less. =20 Personally, I think you should apologize - to the community of people who want to use Java on FreeBSD. A bit of patience, understanding, and explanation might have ameliorated Bill's sense of alienation and encouraged him to continue his contributions. In the long run, fostering a vibrant development community is a much more important activity than issuing grants. =20 Jeff Schnitzer jeff@infohazard.org I don't know any of the people involved. My only involvement is an overwhelming desire to run JDK1.4 and JBoss on FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:52:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ADDA37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.futurequest.net (taz.futurequest.net [63.151.147.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B174543FE1 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joshua@sublimity.net) Received: (qmail 411 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2003 19:52:42 -0000 Received: from x200.futurequest.net (63.151.147.200) by taz.futurequest.net (63.151.147.100 ); 06 Feb 2003 19:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (199.181.134.220) by x200.futurequest.net (63.151.147.200) with ESMTP; 06 Feb 2003 19:52:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:52:09 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Joshua IV To: John Polstra Cc: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, , Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: sublimity.net_xsublimity-joshua@[127.0.0.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi John, crew. As a somewhat newcomer to freebsd-java and an utter lurker, I think I can offer a pretty unbiased opinion about the whole deal. I feel compelled to, because I'm a big proponent of open-source software development, which is a big win for everyone, but like any relative of the Prisoner's Dilemma, it has some fragility. After reading through the relevant mail, both that intended to be public and that intended not to be public, it was pretty clear to me that Bill didn't want the job. Of course you can argue that that was after-the-fact-ism, but regardless he makes it obvious that his primary concern isn't the job, but is acknowledgement of his work and enough respect to at least give him a handwave during the process. I can understand if you missed that message amid the napalm bombardment, but that doesn't absolve the underlying sin, which is needing him to tell you in the first place. As a significant member of an organization so dependent on volunteer contribution (including your own), I'm sure you've read Homesteading the Noosphere by Eric Raymond (you have, haven't you?) http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue3_10/raymond/ in which he gives a very reasoned and reasonable analysis of the open-source development culture and what drives it. It is in essence a gift economy. And the primary coinage in a gift economy is respect and acknowledgement, for better or worse. As a putative legal representative of an essentially open-source project, this should be part and parcel of the way you do business, but you seem to have ignored it. Bill's work has been instrumental in us getting hotspot running in a production environment. Furthermore, it only took about 3 days of being on the mailing list to learn about his work and take advantage of it. To suggest that you've never heard of him makes it quite clear that you've never spent so much as a few days reading the freebsd-java list, much less researched it intensively. Which naturally leads to the question: What do you make of an organization choosing to take responbility for bringing Java to FreeBSD, that hasn't bothered to spend any time in. . . freebsd-java? And what do you make of an organization that lives inside a gift economy, but isn't interested in participating in it? The answers probably aren't complimentary, and I urge the FreeBSD Foundation to do what it can to repair that oversight (probably too late, from both directions), and work in the future to becoming more aware of the environment it's working in. -j Joshua IV -=- -=- =-= -=- -=: :-= /-\ Floundering Cognitive Ass of the Cognitive Assonance Cabal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:56:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99EA37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCA943F3F for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:56:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h16JtT184554; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302061955.h16JtT184554@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Larry Sica Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD desktop (was: GGI (was: Project Status)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:55:24 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica writes: > One could take a nod from apple here. It only asks for a password if > you tell it you want to be asked for login, and will then ask for > administrative tasks. It presents setting this up in a very friendly > way as well. Does this mean you select a random password for the user, or leave the user with a null password? ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Envy devours good deeds, as a fire devours fuel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:59: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE4137B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F70F43FAF for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:59:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15851 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:58:53 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030206124340.03c37c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:45:50 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object In-Reply-To: <20030206005639.V40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> <20030205140726.407e150a.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:26 AM 2/6/2003, Doug Barton wrote: >I'd like to make a point that I think is being overlooked here regarding >exactly what a "commit bit" means. It simply means that the person has >(essentially) unfettered access to commit code directly to the tree. For >all intents and purposes, it's a matter of convenience. Exactly. Which means that it's likely NOT a good criterion for allowing someone to vote (and its absence should not be a reason to deny a member of the community a vote). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 12:11: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E0837B40D for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from taiwan.com (TN210-200-122-99.fx.apol.com.tw [210.200.122.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009B343F75 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from slc12@taiwan.com) From: slc12@taiwan.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?pc6k36zdp7mz4SEhIS4uLi4u?= Reply-To: slc19681202@taiwan.com Date: 07 Feb 2003 04:12:16 +0800 Expiry-Date: 07 Sep 2002 08:00:00 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20030206201056.009B343F75@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¯¬±z¦Ï¦~

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 12:16:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A632537B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9664C43F93 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gsRJ-0004kt-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:16:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:16:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD desktop (was: GGI (was: Project Status)) In-Reply-To: <064CB153-3A0A-11D7-B89B-000393A335A2@mac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > The software is already available. The packages/ports are done. > > > > What is needed is a good interface to it, both aesthetically, and > technically as well as a stable method. It has been awhile since I have played with a variety of gui package installers. Does KDE's kpackage work fine? Is it easy to use? (I need to give it a try again.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 12:25: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54D737B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from taiwan.com (TN210-200-122-99.fx.apol.com.tw [210.200.122.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBB343F75 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:24:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from slc12@taiwan.com) From: slc12@taiwan.com To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?pc6k36zdp7mz4SEhIS4uLi4u?= Reply-To: slc19681202@taiwan.com Date: 07 Feb 2003 04:26:19 +0800 Expiry-Date: 07 Sep 2002 08:00:00 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20030206202459.2BBB343F75@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¯¬±z¦Ï¦~

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 12:29:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FA137B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5235B43F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gse1-0000eT-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:29:13 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:29:13 -0800 To: John Polstra Cc: "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 10:41:24AM -0800, John Polstra wrote: > Bill's public attack on me stems from those e-mails. They contain > the history of this issue. In transforming a simple, everyday > hiring decision into a public attack on the FreeBSD Foundation and > on me personally, Bill threw the rules of etiquette out the window. BS, you have a responsibility to the greater FreeBSD community to make sure and that input is listened to and then acted upon appropriately. You failed when you did this behind everybody's back, not just me. You failed the entire group. > If Bill wants this to be public then it is _all_ going to be public. > Some will disagree with this, but I can live with that. The e-mails > will stay on the web page until I no longer feel the need to defend > my actions in public. You need to as a non-profit for the sake of the community, that's completely arrogant to think otherwise. > One person criticized the title I put on the web page. His point is > well taken. The whole day yesterday was so utterly surreal that I > guess I needed a small dose of comic relief. That was inappropriate, + ridicule and belittlement all of which reflect badly in a corporate context when getting grant money. It makes you and the rest of FreeBSD look stupid. You should be fired from the position and people need to be elected into roles that significant to the community. > and I have changed the title to "Mail". > kinds, etc., those rules have nothing to do with 501(c)(3) Non-profits like the Red Cross exist to serve a larger group folks, not you and your warped sense of ego in relation to the rest of the FreeBSD community. The fact that you don't understand this means, that you're missing something in your personal experience essential for the competent function of this job you've been self appointed to. > Greg and Nate agreed that Alexey would be a good person for the job. I would have agreed that Alexey is a good person for the job, but there should have never been a place and time where I should have been excluded from the decision making body, since I've classically had that role ever since I came from the BSD/OS group at WindRiver. > (This turned out to be a valuable recommendation, and we couldn't be > more pleased with his work.) We initiated discussions with Alexey, Yes, stroke yourself more. It's disgusting. > worked out the contractual details, etc., and he went to work on it Behind everybodies back with regard to any preexisting political structure in existence or otherwise, very stupid. > full time. Since then he has made great progress, and he has kept > us up-to-date with status reports. How do you know what the progress is ? have you seen the commit logs ? In fact, you don't know who's been doing what in the group, which is why you asked both Nate and Greg in the first place. That's crack smoking claim on your part.. You would even be making progress with any develope if I hadn't taken on this task from Dec 2001 to May 2002, all on my own time and money, just to see this through. > That was the state of things at the beginning of this week. Now let > me make something perfectly clear. When we asked for recommendations, > Bill Huey's name never came up. He wasn't mentioned. As far as I I never came up since Nate is partially held a senseless grudge from a private conversation that I dismissed as silly and never looked back thinking things where ok, he'll chill out and realize this was stupid. In partial summary, you were partially manipulated into not even considering me in the first place because of prior resentments and the non-mention of me in the first place... Regardless, given the core role I have in the group, I should have never been excluded from the discussion from hiring Alexey or anybody else. > know, I had never even heard his name before -- certainly not in any You never heard my name before ? Good god, do you know what I've done ? or even understand it ? > context that would cause me to remember it. It never came to you since your group didn't competently research what folks where doing in this group and didn't ask any formal body about what was really going on. That's another sign of incompetence. > Then, out of the blue, we received his first e-mail on Tuesday. It > was absolutely baffling to all of us at the Foundation. Here was > this profanity-laden flame from a perfect stranger, demanding an > explanation for the fact that we hadn't hired him! Not true, you have a reading comprehension problem. I asked why I wasn't included in the decision making body. Now that's clear, you didn't think to ask if the folks you asked for advice in the first place what other engineers would think about this. > The rest of the history is documented in the e-mails, which most of > you have already seen. To re-iterate: msg01.txt was the first I had > ever heard of Bill Huey. How would you feel in my position? > Frankly, my first reaction was, "Thank GOD we didn't hire that guy!" That's because you're a narrow minded dickhead that doesn't listen to anybody reasonable. > Some of you have criticized the terseness of my replies to Bill. I Terse = rude, dismissive, reactive, selfish, unanalytical and unsuitable for sitting on a $50,000 grant from Sun so that the license came be done through the FreeBSD Foundation, which I support since both Greg and Nate supported over Blackdown, Calvin Austin's suggestion. If we had just turned this into a Blackdown project this would have never happened in the first place. You were given political power in the community, in terms of several grant, one from Sun implicitly and more for Alexey, and then didn't act on it responsibly as a non-profit to the corporation nor to the developer or user body that you supposeably represent. > hope this context will help you to understand it a little better. > My very first contact with the fellow came in the form of a flame > from him. This was followed 18 hours later by a second mail which > contained an explicit threat. I don't think anybody knows for sure I think it's understandable when you didn't reply to it and "dismissed" it the first time around. It's partially your responsibility to interface and possibly deal with semi-irrate corporate body any constituents. > how to deal with a person who's in that state of mind. It seemed to > me that the least harmful approach would be to avoid escalating the > situation. So I sent him the briefest, most emotion-free reply I Most emotion free ? You've got to be kidding me, you were a condescending ass in that second email, which is why I got really fucking pissed. > could manage, and in the subsequent mail I tried to keep things > strictly on a professional level. We could talk all day long about Professional like competent communication between all relevant parties ? > whether that was the right approach or not. I did my best, and I am > proud of the fact that I didn't let Bill drag me down to his level > of discourse. You brought to new level when you title that exchange as "Bill's Job Interview", that's pretty stupid of you. > On to a related topic ... Some people, Bill included, took offense at > my statement, "Bill, there are easily a hundred people who could have > done this work, but we could only hire one of them." This was in no A number of folks did. > way intended to be disparaging toward any Java developer; nor was it > meant as any kind of insult. I am sorry that some people took it that > way, and I'll try to learn how to express myself better in the future. > The point I was trying to make was simply that if we hired one person, > there were going to be a whole bunch of other qualified people that we > _didn't_ hire. Bill was one of those. For whatever reason, he's > the only one who took it as a personal affront. Because I did all the freaking work. Pick a paper an read: http://research.sun.com/self/papers/papers.html This is what I have to deal with including a backward way of introducing myself to the intricacies of Solaris threading in one of the density C/C++/assembler trees most folks have ever seen. Believe it or not that's 1/3rd of the HotSpot compiler and not the entire thing. The JVM is used as supporting first class type system as an add on to HotSpot. It's simply complete insanity. > I actually am fairly confident that there are a hundred people in > the world who could do the job. I mean -- come on, people! In the > whole world? Of course there are! But honestly, the number doesn't > matter for the point I was trying to make unless you think the > number is 1 -- in which case you'll get nothing but a hearty belly > laugh from me. Bogus argument. It was implied that you though some job blow high school drop out could have done this job, which just isn't true. > I have just one other thing I'd like to say as I end this lengthy > e-mail. We at the FreeBSD Foundation are volunteers who are simply "We at the FreeBSD Foundation are incompetent voluteers, that should have had these roles be elected in office in first place so that we can actual serve the community at large instead of bloating our already overinflated egos." > trying to do something for the benefit of the FreeBSD Project. We > don't get paid. In fact, we donate money as well as time to the > Foundation. It is a rewarding job, at times, but frankly it isn't > much fun. The Internet is a big place, and there is always somebody > out there who can manage to view just about anything as a > conspiracy. There is really nothing I can do about such people. I Because it partially was. You didn't pick up on it nor demonstrated sensitivity to the situation. > just try to keep my cool and do my best, knowing full well that I > can't please everybody. > > Well, that's about it. I think I have said just about everything I > can say on this topic. I am most likely not going to write any more > about it. I just don't see the point of writing if there's nothing > new to say. As I said at the very beginning: draw your own > conclusions. Conclusions: 1) FreeBSD Foundation doesn't listen to people. 2) FF doesn't understand how putting money into a volunteer situation can possibly cause confusion in relation to other developers. Who fairly decides "what" goes to which person ? 3) John Polstra is a wuss that can't handle a little bit of confrontation so that another core developer understands why he was omitted from the political process in which should have never been omitted in the first place. 4) FF positions should be elected and have competent people interfacing with all corporate, developers and user communities. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 12:45:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518FE37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:45:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C57943FAF for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:45:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gstq-0000gy-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:45:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:45:34 -0800 To: "Alan B. Clegg" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: My words towards billh's resignation Message-ID: <20030206204534.GD2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206080808.GD5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206130331.GA58179@shazam.wetworks.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206130331.GA58179@shazam.wetworks.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:03:31AM -0500, Alan B. Clegg wrote: > Bill, having worked with you in the past, all I can say is that your > attitude of self importance has not changed in the least, and I, for one > wish you would: >[shut the fuck up] Oh, really ? can you tell me how you're going to get me to that ? Ok, maybe that's a good idea. > Nobody in the project is "THREATENED OF YOU" and your 31337 ninja coding > skillz anymore now than when you were banned from #bsdcode a few years > back due to their (Alfred and Fumerola's) "insecurities" (your word). Oh, Chicken Alfredo Hurlstein and Fill Firmerspicola ? I couldn't resist. :) > It seems to me that everything that does not go your way turns into a > "they are scared of me", "they are threatened by me", or "they are insecure Well, aren't they ? > because I'm better" type of argument. I suggest medication. Who said I was better ? I just said that I was annoyed and would like them to stop it. > If the foundation wants to hire someone else, it's THEIR CHOICE. They > don't have to pass ANYTHING by you, as you are a NOBODY just like the > rest of us. Dude, you know so little of how our group works that I can't believe you said that. It's like preparing for war and dismissing the tank division as calvary. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 14:47:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89EF037B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep11-int.chello.nl (amsfep11-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE6A43FA3; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:47:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@bowtie.nl) Received: from bowtie.nl ([213.46.7.58]) by amsfep11-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030206224751.CQDY2835.amsfep11-int.chello.nl@bowtie.nl>; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:47:51 +0100 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:47:45 +0100 Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Marc van Kempen , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" To: Bill Huey (Hui) From: Marc van Kempen In-Reply-To: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> Message-Id: <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On donderdag, feb 6, 2003, at 21:29 Europe/Amsterdam, Bill Huey (Hui) wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 10:41:24AM -0800, John Polstra wrote: >> Bill's public attack on me stems from those e-mails. They contain >> the history of this issue. In transforming a simple, everyday >> hiring decision into a public attack on the FreeBSD Foundation and >> on me personally, Bill threw the rules of etiquette out the window. > > BS, you have a responsibility to the greater FreeBSD community to make > sure and that input is listened to and then acted upon appropriately. > You failed when you did this behind everybody's back, not just me. > You failed the entire group. > [inflamatory reply to John's explanation cut out] Come on you two, you aren't communicating. John you still haven't addressed the issue why you don't reply to Bill's comments, it's only making things worse, do you want it to detoriate at this rate. If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would have certainly consulted you had I known." Now is that so hard? You should realize that you can't handle this in the proffesional way that you'd like, and perhaps are used to in the commercial world out there. This is a volunteer project and as Jeff Schnitzer said, recognition plays a great part as a motivator for doing the work. It's almost unbelievable that you didn't research the java project (and mailing lists) to find out what is going on. Had you done that you would have quickly realised Bill's role. While we're at it Bill, why do you keep using this much abusive language, it's not making things better, quite the contrary. Regards, Marc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 15: 1: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796A737B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3DF443FBD; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by sasami.jurai.net (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h16N0tvA048054; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:00:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:00:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Marc van Kempen Cc: Bill Huey , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> Message-ID: <20030206175143.E15295@sasami.jurai.net> References: <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote: > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would > have certainly consulted you had I known." > > Now is that so hard? You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition. If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort of compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your work. Rational people don't go stomping around demanding that the world be perfect for them. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | For Great Justice! | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 15:10:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4470A37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from twoface.shiftmanager.net (adsl-64-170-199-98.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.170.199.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E48A43F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt@twoface.shiftmanager.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.shiftmanager.net [127.0.0.1]) by twoface.shiftmanager.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h16NBE9S034829; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kurt@twoface.shiftmanager.net) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:11:14 -0800 (PST) From: Kurt Werle Reply-To: Kurt Werle To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Marc van Kempen , Bill Huey , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , , , , , , Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: <20030206175143.E15295@sasami.jurai.net> Message-ID: <20030206150320.C33922-100000@twoface.shiftmanager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote: > > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that > > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs > > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole > > java porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we > > would have certainly consulted you had I known." > > > > Now is that so hard? > > You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition. No, usually one demands pay for one's hard work. In this case, Bill clearly wanted recognition. He has not been paid, nor was it promised. In a Free Project, one usually doesn't need to demand recognition. Usually the folks who can give it do so freely. > If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't > seriously expect anything for your efforts. I think that you can and should expect recognition. If it's clear that you helped make an important component work in some large project, it may actually be something you would put on your resume'. If potential employers can look that info up, it makes it even more likely. > Rational people don't go stomping around demanding that the world be > perfect for them. No, rational people generally hope that the people in charge will do reasonable things. If they fail to do so, reasonable people try to change that. If that fails, reasonable people tend to walk away. Bill has done a poor job, politically speaking, of trying to change what's going on. John has done an equally poor job of trying to keep the peace and smooth things over. Kurt --- kwerle@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~kwerle/ Tired of spam? Control your Mailserver (or .forward)? http://tess.sf.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 15:17:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9934F37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3DC443FBD for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h16NHSja099804; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:17:28 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h16NHScj099803; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:17:28 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h16NE1aX006712; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:14:01 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302062314.h16NE1aX006712@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Marc van Kempen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:47:45 +0100." <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:14:01 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc van Kempen writes: > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would > have certainly consulted you had I known." Actually, he did. > Now is that so hard? Obviously not. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 15:30:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2588437B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E94F43FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:30:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h16NUa214086; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:30:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:30:36 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mark Murray Cc: Marc van Kempen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030206183036.P11962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Murray , Marc van Kempen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200302062314.h16NE1aX006712@grimreaper.grondar.org> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > Marc van Kempen writes: > > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that > > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs > > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java > > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would > > have certainly consulted you had I known." > > Actually, he did. No, he *did not*. Not on the archived mails on his web page, and not on these lists. Point out one single quote where he acknowledges Bill may have made a contribution to freebsd-java, or that he may have been mistaken in ignoring him. His latest long mail is an exercise in saying why it's ok to react as he did, because he's never heard of Bill. As others have pointed out, if he'd bothered to hang around the freebsd-java list for a couple of days, he'd have heard of Bill. Absolutely the only "mea culpa" jdp issues for the whole episode is for the title he used on his webpage. I don't totally blame him for his initial reaction, since he's in a volunteer position, he must have been freaked by Bill's mails, and Bill is way too foul-mouthed for normal people. But jdp is not close to even acknowledging Bill's contribution, let alone that it was a mistake not consulting him. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 15:46: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4902C37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F64743FB1 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003020623460400100g3bqve>; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:46:04 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h16Niq5F036677 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h16Nik5c036674; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> <20030205140726.407e150a.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> <20030206005639.V40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Feb 2003 15:44:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030206005639.V40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton writes: > [Please respect reply-to chat@freebsd.org, thanks] ... > Unfortunately, for a number of complex reasons, some of which have been > described publicly, and some of which are not appropriate to describe > publicly, the core team decided that it's no longer appropriate for Matt > to have this access to the cvs tree. Doug, your "reply-to" request makes you sound like a write-only chatter. Assuming that you're not, I'll respect your request, though I started to send it only to you to save the thread another message. You made good points and I don't disagree with the quote, but the tone of your message leads me to make these related comments: You surely understand how the silence about some of the reasons causes problems; maybe it's unavoidable, but it probably had worse consequences than more openness would have. But ends don't always justify means, and I won't mention it further. But the "end" of having non-hostile mailing lists and CVS logs might not justify the "means" of having people work under the threat of loss of privileges, based on judgements about whether they are polite enough, especially with suspicions of imperfect objectiveness in the absence of clear standards. Several core members have made it quite clear on -chat that the threshold reason that Matt lost his priviledge was that he was too impolite. Granted, this judgement has been put in core's hands, and their action was "legal" in the "FreeBSD legal system". But many people are complaining that the politeness threshold of individual core members and of the group are wrong, with some complainers finding it very wrong. (I've had my own encounter with this threshold and found it very wrong.) It need not be something to take personally; it's just a belief that FreeBSD would be better off with a (much?) looser attitude on the part of the Politeness Police. People are just trying to influence core's, and others', attitudes; elections aren't the only way to do that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 16:21:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F78837B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [193.124.215.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B72743F85; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from drweb by mail.nsu.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim 3.20 #1) id 18gwFp-0002lV-00; Fri, 07 Feb 2003 06:20:29 +0600 Received: from iclub.nsu.ru ([193.124.215.97] ident=root) by mail.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 18gwFn-0002jc-00; Fri, 07 Feb 2003 06:20:27 +0600 Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (fjoe@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h170KGRV047046; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:20:17 +0600 (NS) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: (from fjoe@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h170KEU1047044; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:20:14 +0600 (NS) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:20:13 +0600 From: Max Khon To: Marc van Kempen Cc: Bill Huey , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030207062013.A46600@iclub.nsu.ru> References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl>; from marc@bowtie.nl on Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:47:45PM +0100 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_05_08, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.43 X-Envelope-To: marc@bowtie.nl, billh@gnuppy.monkey.org, jdp@polstra.com, john@utzweb.net, brent@rcfile.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, there! On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:47:45PM +0100, Marc van Kempen wrote: > It's almost unbelievable that you didn't research the java project (and > mailing lists) to find out what is going on. Had you done that you > would have quickly realised Bill's role. They asked glewis and nate. Isn't that enough? Someone invested some amount of money and they have given it to Alexey. That's simple. Should they pay something to Greg? He's done tremendous amount of work to make 1.3.1 available on FreeBSD. Or Nate? I do not think that porting 1.1.8 was easy. Or some other developers that contribute to FreeBSD Java Project? If I had spare money that I could spend for such purpose maybe I'd pay Bill. If you have money feel free to send them to Bill. Bill is known to be one of the most active developers of 1.3.1 HotSpot. That's the fact. I highly appreciate his work. But what all you guys are talking about? I'd understand you if it were yours money. But they are not. It is a volunteer project and noone can expect that he will be paid for his job or request the contract if he was not chosen by some investor. /fjoe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 16:39:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5CE37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C261943F75; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:39:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from emerger.yogotech.com (emerger.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14883; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:39:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by emerger.yogotech.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) id h170d0EQ066292; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:39:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15939.36.855969.496240@emerger.yogotech.com> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:39:00 -0700 To: Doug Barton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: High-latency/long-distance IP stack (was Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access access.master access.ports) In-Reply-To: <20030206022854.G40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030205233916.6156C2A89E@canning.wemm.org> <20030205231630.D32815-100000@patrocles.silby.com> <20030206022854.G40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat ] > > Didn't Harti Brandt say that he was working on satelite communications? > > Perhaps he has plans to allow even larger RTTs to work well. :) > > > > "FreeBSD: The best connection to Mars... or AOL" > > You laugh, but various people, including Vint Cerf, are currently working > on an IP stack (or something that can be made to look like an IP stack) > that will work across those kinds of distances. It really isn't that hard to do that, IMNSHO. The hardest part is finding good 'initial' values for timeouts (if the first packet gets lost), since you don't want *too* long if it happens that the link is short. (Been there, done that. :) Once you get the initial 'broad' issues sorted out and understand that packet loss != congestion, the above stack isn't that hard to build/design. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 16:55:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD36137B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5294243FAF for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h170tJLK022263; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:55:19 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20030205171407.A15358@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20030205190345.GD42936@roark.gnf.org> <20030205140726.407e150a.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> <3E41CFED.45413F33@kuzbass.ru> <20030206005639.V40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:40:04 +0100 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: dillon@'s commit bit: I object Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:44 PM -0800 2003/02/06, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Several core members have made it quite clear on -chat that the > threshold reason that Matt lost his priviledge was that he was too > impolite. No. Not impolite. More like thermonuclear offensive and unbelievably abusive. In multiple cases. Over a long period of time. Sure, Matt has helped a number of people, myself included. But he has also reamed a lot of people a wide variety of new orifices, some of which have been made large enough to drive the Starship Enterprise through, as well as the whole rest of Starfleet. That said, it was my understanding that Matt was getting better. Certainly, I have not personally seen this kind of behaviour from Matt in a while -- I'm guessing that he has gotten better (than he was) and restricted this kind of behaviour to less public lists. However, there would appear to have been too much over a long period of time, and one particular (perhaps relatively minor) event was enough to vapourize the camel, the desert underneath it, the rock underneath the desert, the mantle, and everything else all the way down to the -core. ;-) > But many people > are complaining that the politeness threshold of individual core members > and of the group are wrong, with some complainers finding it very wrong. When you have a talking dog, the marvel is not that it speaks perfect prim and proper Oxford English, but that it can talk at all. The miracle here is that Matt has lasted as long as he has. > (I've had my own encounter with this threshold and found it very wrong.) > It need not be something to take personally; it's just a belief that > FreeBSD would be better off with a (much?) looser attitude on the part > of the Politeness Police. People are just trying to influence core's, > and others', attitudes; elections aren't the only way to do that. I don't think there's any problem with their "politeness threshold". Witness the load of elephant dung that Bill Huey has been spewing lately. If he keeps it up, he might reach Matt's level soon, and then in a few years he could expect to have his commit bit taken away, then given back, and then taken back away a few more years down the road. I would say that this is excessively generous to a fault, and my personal view is that they should take things back the other way a few notches. There's just no excuse for this kind of behaviour. IMO, the only real question on this matter is the level of information we were provided by -core regarding this subject, and the fact that I feel that they should have come up with a minimal official announcement on this subject and publicly posted it. In terms of what information we've finally gotten, I'm relatively satisfied with what Greg Lehey has provided. I just wish this level of detail had been provided beforehand, so as to avoid this whole argument. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 16:55:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B714237B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2DB43F3F; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:55:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h170tJLM022263; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:55:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:51:18 +0100 To: Bill Huey (Hui) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Cc: John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:29 PM -0800 2003/02/06, Bill Huey (Hui) wrote: > That's because you're a narrow minded dickhead that doesn't listen to > anybody reasonable. Buddy, you're digging yourself an ever-deeper grave. Have you ever heard of the concept of quitting while you're behind? For every single thing that comes out of your keyboard, my opinion of John grows higher and higher -- largely in amazement of his ability to keep any kind of sanity in the face of your global thermonuclear war. Give it up. At the very least, shut up and let your work speak for itself. You do yourself the gravest possible harm by continuing to issue planetary loads of such elephant dung. At this point, from now on I think I'll avoid using Java or anything related to Java, at least on FreeBSD. I don't ever want to touch anything that you have had any involvement in creating. And that's the last I'm going to say on this subject. *plonk* [ NB: If anyone ever wants to me to see any e-mail they send, make sure it doesn't have his name or e-mail address anywhere within the message body or headers. ] -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17: 7:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5ED37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F14443F75; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gwyl-00011J-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:06:55 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:06:55 -0800 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Marc van Kempen , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030207010655.GB3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> <20030206175143.E15295@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206175143.E15295@sasami.jurai.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 06:00:55PM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote: > > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that > > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs > > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java > > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would > > have certainly consulted you had I known." > > > > Now is that so hard? > > You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition. Not in a function group, no. But this isn't the case. > If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't > seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort of > compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your > work. Sure, you can. I can expect the my work be respect, recognized and that this earns a kind of status in a group. That's the point of the entire thing otherwise they're basically stealing my work without recognizing me. > Rational people don't go stomping around demanding that the world be > perfect for them. When you've done something the key and critical to a project you shouldn't be shitted by your peers or anybody else. If I had been properly recognized as a technical lead in this group then it wouldn't have been a problem. So, yes, I have to toot my horn so that the absolute idiots in this group realize that I did this significant and groundbreaking work. That was never question until John and Nate conspired against any kind of reasonable recognition of my role in the group. That's just fucked up any way you cut it. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:14:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FF637B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F5E43FAF; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gx6D-00012w-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:14:37 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:14:37 -0800 To: Max Khon Cc: Marc van Kempen , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030207011437.GE3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> <20030207062013.A46600@iclub.nsu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030207062013.A46600@iclub.nsu.ru> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 06:20:13AM +0600, Max Khon wrote: > They asked glewis and nate. Isn't that enough? > Someone invested some amount of money and they have given it to Alexey. > That's simple. No way, they did so without understanding a preexisting and implicit political structure in this group. I have always been apart of the inner circle until Nate decided to go completely nuts and feel threatened by my involvement with the project. > Should they pay something to Greg? He's done tremendous amount of work > to make 1.3.1 available on FreeBSD. Or Nate? I do not think that porting 1.1.8 > was easy. Or some other developers that contribute to FreeBSD Java Project? > If I had spare money that I could spend for such purpose maybe I'd pay Bill. > If you have money feel free to send them to Bill. > > Bill is known to be one of the most active developers of 1.3.1 HotSpot. > That's the fact. I highly appreciate his work. But what all you guys are > talking about? I'd understand you if it were yours money. But they are not. It's not about the person getting the money as much as how it happpened. It was done behind closed doors in the context of an open source project. > It is a volunteer project and noone can expect that he will be paid > for his job or request the contract if he was not chosen by some investor. Nobody was, but that's not the point. The point is the dysfunctional political body running this project into the ground. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:16:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4670D37B416; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5AD43F75; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gx7k-00013R-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:16:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:16:12 -0800 To: Brad Knowles Cc: John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org, "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030207011612.GF3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:51:18AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > For every single thing that comes out of your keyboard, my > opinion of John grows higher and higher -- largely in amazement of > his ability to keep any kind of sanity in the face of your global > thermonuclear war. Explain that to me. > Give it up. At the very least, shut up and let your work speak for > itself. The work has spoken for itself, but your ability to comprehend has to be completely comprimised > You do yourself the gravest possible harm by continuing to issue > planetary loads of such elephant dung. Great, another screwball. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:36: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C398F37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (dsl231-043-165.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.231.43.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 770EA43F93 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:36:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 12803 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2003 01:36:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Feb 2003 01:36:02 -0000 Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) From: Joe Kelsey To: Bill Huey Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Marc van Kempen , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org In-Reply-To: <20030207010655.GB3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> <20030206175143.E15295@sasami.jurai.net> <20030207010655.GB3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1044581762.84890.48.camel@zircon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1 Date: 06 Feb 2003 17:36:02 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 17:06, Bill Huey wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 06:00:55PM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote: > > > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that > > > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs > > > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java > > > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would > > > have certainly consulted you had I known." > > > > > > Now is that so hard? > > > > You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition. > > Not in a function group, no. But this isn't the case. > > > If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't > > seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort of > > compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your > > work. > > Sure, you can. I can expect the my work be respect, recognized and that > this earns a kind of status in a group. That's the point of the entire > thing otherwise they're basically stealing my work without recognizing > me. The problem, Bill, is that your work does speak for itself. It speaks volumes about someone who fundamentally does not understand how to work in a group or to work within a specific porting framework. The Java project is better with Alexey working on it. /Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:40:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1879337B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from keyser.soze.com (keyser.soze.com [194.165.93.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4454743F93; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefan.arentz@soze.com) Received: from soze.com (fw.norad.org [194.109.230.140]) by keyser.soze.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D2935180; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:40:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:40:29 +0100 Subject: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: jdp@polstra.com To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Stefan Arentz Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <237589D0-3A3D-11D7-8CCD-000A95678CE8@soze.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:24:33AM +0800, leafy wrote: > John, this looks nasty, I mean on your part. I think what Bill demanded was > resonable -- just an explaination or some respect for his hard work. I totally agree. Bill has done an amazing amount of hacking and that is the main reason why this 1.4.1 port exists today. It is the reason why the Foundation could hire just one person; all the hard work had already been done. Where is the recognition of that fact. Could other people have done it? Sure, but Bill was the one who devoted a *large* portion of his time in 2002 to get this done. That is why I don't buy the "hey this is a volunteer project" argument that someone else posted, in the end it *is* all about the volunteers who make it possible. Don't use it as an excuse to treat people like shit. Also, John Polstra's comment about 'there are easily a hundred people who done this work' shows a complete lack of understanding how difficult this project is. It involves a large amount of compiler, interpreter and kernel discipline which, combined, cannot be found in a lot of engineers. Bill knows this stuff. This is most definitely not your typical port with some #ifdefs and a recompile. He does not even acknowledge the fact that Bill did most of the hard work. I too was amazed not to find the proper credits to Bill's work. Not in a release note or even a list of contributors. Actually what Greg Lewis wrote was: 'Again, I would like to thank Alexey Zelkin who has single handedly been working on the 1.4 port. I'd also like to thank the FreeBSD Foundation who have provided the funding to allow Alexey to continue his work.' This is insulting. Alexey is of course doing great work but not 'single handedly'. He builds on Bill's work. Was that suddenly forgotten? Where is the recognition for the real hacker behind this release? The person who funded himself without any outside help financially. The person who worked many many hours on this project to make FreeBSD a better platform? I'm pretty sure that Bill couldn't care less about the money or the job. It is the complete lack of credits and respect that he deserves for doing this work that pissed him off. Wouldn't you be? Sometimes it is very difficult to see who does what in such a large project as FreeBSD, but the people involved here should known better in this case. This is all about proper recognition and keeping people motivated. It scares me that the FreeBSD foundation made this mistake and silently tries to deny it. Forget about Bill's direct approach in his response. He has every right to be pissed imo, and that doesn't invalidate all energy that he put in this project. The Foundation owes him an apology. Greetings, Stefan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:48:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E1D37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaw.ca (lsanca2-ar32-4-63-022-226.lsanca2.dsl-verizon.net [4.63.22.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 487BC43FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from porosuskylq@shaw.ca) Message-ID: <000310b4ed45$dde15600$03533134@orhavls.fqc> From: To: Subject: refinance now Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 04:24:37 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 18:46: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225C037B405 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (adsl-208-191-149-232.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.149.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AF043FDD for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.11.6) id h172nT51080486 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:49:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:49:25 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: My words towards billh's resignation Message-ID: <20030207024925.GB74606@holly.machined.net> Reply-To: chris@FreeBSD.org References: <20030205121006.GA69850@rcfile.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206080808.GD5538@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206130331.GA58179@shazam.wetworks.org> <20030206204534.GD2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030206204534.GD2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mr. Huey has already resigned and said he no longer wishes to contribute to the FreeBSD Project. Therefore, further posts to this thread are pointless. All this thread is doing is getting people inflamed and distracted from actual productive work. Just let it die, folks! -- Chris Costello FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org/ TrustedBSD Project http://www.TrustedBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 18:56:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDBD37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DD443FDD; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B5CBC5199E; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:26:32 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:26:32 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Bill Huey Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Core Team Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207011612.GF3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1y6imfT/xHuCvpN0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030207011612.GF3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --1y6imfT/xHuCvpN0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 5 February 2003 at 20:05:15 -0800, Bill Huey wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:58:10PM -0800, John Polstra wrote: >> Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. > > Yes, it is. You should have own the fuck up and then changed the > situation and clarified the political structures surrounding this > incredibly poor decision. On Thursday, 6 February 2003 at 1:01:30 -0800, Bill Huey wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:41:41AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: >> Wow. Bad luck, John. Its disgusting that you should be subjected to >> this kind of abuse. >> >> Not all of us think as Bill does. > > That's a useless comment on your part. If you don't have anything to > say that's constructive, then frankly shut the fuck up. On Thursday, 6 February 2003 at 17:16:12 -0800, Bill Huey wrote: > On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:51:18AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >> You do yourself the gravest possible harm by continuing to issue >> planetary loads of such elephant dung. > > Great, another screwball. Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate behaviour for a committer. If you continue like this, core will have to temporarily remove you from the lists until you calm down. This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified. That's an issue which will take longer to research. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --1y6imfT/xHuCvpN0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+QyBgIubykFB6QiMRAsKsAJ9yBCwAIF0x7wzc8DmIhQJ70RlGDwCfZ5jn NZK5bnuK0lDmR3afuwmtj0g= =Cw/S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1y6imfT/xHuCvpN0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 20: 7:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604BE37B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC6543FBD; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gznB-0001oq-00; Thu, 06 Feb 2003 20:07:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:07:09 -0800 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Core Team , "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030207040709.GA6985@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207011612.GF3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:26:32PM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate > behaviour for a committer. If you continue like this, core will have > to temporarily remove you from the lists until you calm down. Agreed. > This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified. > That's an issue which will take longer to research. That's what I wanted to hear from somebody close to -core. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 20:17:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F71637B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (aldan.algebra.com [216.254.65.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AADA43F75; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h174GfiC092379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:16:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h174GerC092378; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:16:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: BSD's reliable networking (Re: High-latency/long-distance IP stack) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:16:40 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20030205233916.6156C2A89E@canning.wemm.org> <20030206022854.G40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <15939.36.855969.496240@emerger.yogotech.com> In-Reply-To: <15939.36.855969.496240@emerger.yogotech.com> X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7whJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A success story to share. My significant other's grandfather, who lives one floor below us in the same appartment building, was (after I set things up for him) using our DSL connection to play chess online, e-mail a few friends, and read news. The chess software was for Windows, so his OS had to be Windows 98 (on an old Pentium @75MHz). The connection between him and us had to be wireless (802.11b) -- you can't run cables through the stairwell. The setup worked most of the time, but sometimes the connections were stopping. Sometimes realligning the antenna would help, but we did not believe, anything more could be done -- the walls and the ceiling are concrete and brick after all. A newer machine (Xeon @400MHz) became available and I decided to upgrade him. Since I also found out, there are Unix programs, that work with his chessclub.com, I installed FreeBSD. I was worried, the "barely-there" wireless connection will give me more headache, because we will not be using "the official" drivers for his Orinoco card, but, in fact, the connection seems flawless. You have to run ping to notice the occasional packet drops -- at about the same rate as before -- but the upper network layers still work -- there are no annoying timeouts or connection drops (even NFS works reliably), he did not have to climb up the chair to reajust the antenna since... If it is true, that Microsoft took the BSD network stack for their shameful OS-wannabes, they did a really poor job... His other two applications -- web-browser, and e-mail client -- are also working fine. He was previously using Netscape-4.5 (the last 4.x version, that had Russian translation). Konqueror and Kmail are his new tools... -mi P.S. If you were wondering, my ISP -- SpeakEasy.net -- is not against connection sharing (or running a server, for that matter)... Switch at: http://www.speakeasy.net/refer/29957 and I'll get a credit :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 23:16: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F4437B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (nexus.xs4all.nl [213.84.207.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8C443FA3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:16:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@nexus.ninth-circle.org) Received: by 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0758B5B8; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:16:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:16:02 +0100 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues Message-ID: <20030207071602.GV43834@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organisation: Ninth Circle Enterprises User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So nice to see all the slamming and slandering, but what I really don't get is how people are losing every little bit of common sense at this point. 1) We have people posting private email. Just wonderful. It might be in defense of your point, but I think it doesn't quite warrant that. 2) We have people cc:'ing people who work at other companies (for example someone at sun.com in the java slander thread). Well done people! You just pulled credibility to lower than zero. Shows real good grasp of how the corporate world will react to this kind of thing. 3) Egos rising skyhigh. I have no problem with people who are confident in what they do, but the self-patting and ego-boosting stuff I read on the lists have been ridiculous lately. Grow up, learn some humility (books about Buddhism are a good start). 4) Also, the ability to generalise seems to be paramount nowadays. 5) The ability to take one topic and connect it to another and drawing seeing connections. Me, oh my, it reminds me of the Bush joke that there's a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, since both have a Q in them. Are we losing common sense and politeness here people? -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.advogato.org/person/asmodai/ When Silence cries... Is it what I feel? Or is it what you really long to be..? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 23:28:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8204937B401 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F001543FB1 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:28:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h177SR188905; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200302070728.h177SR188905@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:28:22 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok writes: > So nice to see all the slamming and slandering, but what I really don't > get is how people are losing every little bit of common sense at this > point. Well, common sense is not common. Speaking of commonality, I detect a common theme in all the flaming of late. It seems that if someone becomes unreasonable and angry, this makes anything that happened before irrelevant and unassailable. Never mind what actually happened, apparently if someone starts posting scathing flames, they are automatically wrong and previous events are discarded. Real truth is not measured by the level of anger. It's measured by what actually happened, which might be independent of the anger. The only one I've seen posting in this regard is Greg Lehey. Kudos to you, sir, for recognizing that: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" writes: > This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified. > That's an issue which will take longer to research. I've no clue into the politics of these situations. If this man and this topic is on -core, there is hope yet. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< A monk said to Nasrudin, "I am so detached that I never think of myself, only of others." Nasrudin replied, "I am so objective that I can look at myself as if I _were_ another person; so I can afford to think of myself." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 0:36:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE72C37B401; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD8343FA3; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: by testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E9573CF48; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:36:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE14CD23; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:36:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:36:32 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Bill Huey Cc: Max Khon , Marc van Kempen , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: <20030207011437.GE3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> Message-ID: <20030207013834.U10604@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> <20030207062013.A46600@iclub.nsu.ru> <20030207011437.GE3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Bill Huey wrote: > On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 06:20:13AM +0600, Max Khon wrote: > > They asked glewis and nate. Isn't that enough? Someone invested > > some amount of money and they have given it to Alexey. That's > > simple. > > No way, they did so without understanding a preexisting and implicit > political structure in this group. I have always been apart of the > inner circle until Nate decided to go completely nuts and feel > threatened by my involvement with the project. Might as well throw my two cents in, since everybody else already has... It seems to me that, if I understand what I've read in this huge thread correctly, your beef stems from the FF not understanding the "political structure" of the Java group. This non-understanding results in the FF handing out money to the wrong person, in your eyes. Now, here come the million-dollar questions: How was the FF supposed to know of this political structure or even of your existence? Is it common knowledge? Has it been plastered all over the front pages of newspapers? Was it handed down from Above on stone tablets? Apparently it was none of the above, so they ask the only two people they have as contacts in the project who they should give the money to. They don't contact you, because they don't even know you exist. You can't expect them to "just know". They apparently had no reason to distrust the input of their contacts, so things proceeded accordingly. Now, not letting the most recent events cloud rational thought, how is the FF initially overlooking you in any way their fault? -- Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, ARM, and S/390 under development - http://www.freebsd.org No trees were harmed in the composition of this message, although some electrons were mildly inconvenienced. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 0:38: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9549537B401; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E3143F3F; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:37:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h178bli21825; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:37:47 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:37:47 +0100 (CET) From: Harti Brandt X-X-Sender: hbb@beagle.fokus.gmd.de To: Nate Williams Cc: Doug Barton , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: High-latency/long-distance IP stack (was Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access access.master access.ports) In-Reply-To: <15939.36.855969.496240@emerger.yogotech.com> Message-ID: <20030207093019.O3730@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> References: <20030205233916.6156C2A89E@canning.wemm.org> <20030205231630.D32815-100000@patrocles.silby.com> <20030206022854.G40993@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <15939.36.855969.496240@emerger.yogotech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Nate Williams wrote: NW>[ Moved to -chat ] NW> NW>> > Didn't Harti Brandt say that he was working on satelite communications? NW>> > Perhaps he has plans to allow even larger RTTs to work well. :) NW>> > NW>> > "FreeBSD: The best connection to Mars... or AOL" NW>> NW>> You laugh, but various people, including Vint Cerf, are currently working NW>> on an IP stack (or something that can be made to look like an IP stack) NW>> that will work across those kinds of distances. NW> NW>It really isn't that hard to do that, IMNSHO. The hardest part is NW>finding good 'initial' values for timeouts (if the first packet gets NW>lost), since you don't want *too* long if it happens that the link is NW>short. (Been there, done that. :) NW> NW>Once you get the initial 'broad' issues sorted out and understand that NW>packet loss != congestion, the above stack isn't that hard to NW>build/design. In fact there are such stacks: SCPS and now the CCSDS protocol suite. Some of the CCSDS protocols are designed to work over distances to mars (they are quite different from TCP, however). What is missing from current FreeBSD is clearly SACK. Even when doing TCP to the moon SACK can help. In the last two years I have seen at least two announcements of people that have offered a SACK implementation to FreeBSD. Unfortunately non of the TCP experts in the FreeBSD camp took a chance to get this into the tree. A minor problem is that there should be some documentation on how to tune FreeBSD TCP for long fat pipes. There are a number of non-abvious sysctls you have to tune to get it working. An yes, the current RTT stuff in FreeBSD is broken. I'm running my measurement machines on HZ=10000. RTTs are counted in ticks. There is a point where RTT computation breaks. harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de, harti@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 0:52:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAE637B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4257A43FB1 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:52:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h178qVja066999; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:52:31 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h178qVDm066998; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:52:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h178mTaX011012; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:48:29 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302070848.h178mTaX011012@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:28:22 PST." <200302070728.h177SR188905@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:48:29 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes writes: > It seems that if someone becomes unreasonable and angry, this makes > anything that happened before irrelevant and unassailable. Never mind > what actually happened, apparently if someone starts posting scathing > flames, they are automatically wrong and previous events are > discarded. Sort of. I believe that it is the Japanese who say that if someone loses his temper, he automatically loses the argument. If you can't keep control, you shouldn't be playing the game. > Real truth is not measured by the level of anger. It's measured by > what actually happened, which might be independent of the anger. When anger is overwhelming, how can objective measurement work? More objective outsiders have a (slightly) better chance, but the person with the temper runs the very grave risk of turning many people against him from the outset. > The only one I've seen posting in this regard is Greg Lehey. > Kudos to you, sir, for recognizing that: > > "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" writes: > > This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified. > > That's an issue which will take longer to research. > > I've no clue into the politics of these situations. If this man > and this topic is on -core, there is hope yet. Greg is on core, yes. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 3: 6:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C369937B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 03:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED50343FBF for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 03:06:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h17B6Hca097852; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:06:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost) by scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h17B6HAa097849; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:06:17 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:06:17 +0100 (CET) From: Magnus B{ckstr|m To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Subject: Sense, common (n.) (was Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues) In-Reply-To: <20030207071602.GV43834@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > Subject: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues > > So nice to see all the slamming and slandering, but what I really don't > get is how people are losing every little bit of common sense at this > point. Since when -choke- ...ahem, sorry. Sense isn't all that common. What you see is a number of people taking the opportunity to express views that suddenly don't seem out of place. > 2) We have people cc:'ing people who work at other companies (for > example someone at sun.com in the java slander thread). Well done > people! You just pulled credibility to lower than zero. Shows real > good grasp of how the corporate world will react to this kind of thing. You hit your head on a pretty important nail there. I know at least one organisation at which "apparent level-headedness" is a significant part of the broader impression of "the FreeBSD project", and is part reason FreeBSD is taken quite seriously in competition with alternatives. We run 227 machines (desktop, mostly) with FreeBSD here, an improvement of 226 in the past three years. Internal arguments are an unavoidable irritation; it is appalling when they start leaking. Hopefully the receiver is in possession of enough sanity that those stray posts will be taken for exactly what they are. > 3) Egos rising skyhigh. I have no problem with people who are confident > in what they do, but the self-patting and ego-boosting stuff I read on > the lists have been ridiculous lately. Grow up, learn some humility > (books about Buddhism are a good start). mMmhmm, that last part sounds particularly not bad :-) > 4) Also, the ability to generalise seems to be paramount nowadays. > > 5) The ability to take one topic and connect it to another and drawing > seeing connections. Me, oh my, it reminds me of the Bush joke that > there's a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, since both have a Q in > them. > > Are we losing common sense and politeness here people? The value of "Politeness" is surprisingly variable. It makes me want to drive that generalisation bandwagon for a bit; humor me. Three kinds of people are involved here, call them (1), (x), and (2). They differ along a particular dimension: The (1) people think civility, manners, and good conduct are merits equal in importance to technical skill, productivity, knowledge etc. They will throw an offending (in their view) element out or quietly leave in disgust. The (x) people value technical aptitude and results achieved, and regard social skill as perhaps nice but absolutely optional in a greater scheme. They are visible in offering variously reasoned arguments that person so-and-so should be reinstated/apologized to/put up with because (s)he's really too valuable to let go. The (2) people -- for whom a field of technical competence is a mental theater on which to win prizes of recognition, fame, and glory -- regard the exchange of views as a process that is most effective when allowed unhindered access to a full vocabulary. Choose your camp. B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 4:52:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1BA37B401; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 04:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE5943F3F; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id CE79A536E; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:52:44 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Bill Huey , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Core Team Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:52:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> (Greg 'groggy' Lehey's message of "Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:26:32 +1030") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207011612.GF3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes: > Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate > behaviour for a committer. Bill is not a committer, has never been, and after this thread quite probably never will be. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 5: 3:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC5E37B401; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 05:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB5D243FB1; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 05:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oberdorf@earthlink.net) Received: from h-69-3-106-247.nycmny83.covad.net ([69.3.106.247] helo=linux) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18h89v-0001Ef-00; Fri, 07 Feb 2003 05:03:11 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Oliver Reply-To: oly@oberdorf.org To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:03:02 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 Cc: Bill Huey , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Core Team References: <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302070803.02483.oberdorf@earthlink.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org While Greg Lehey's email was generally directed towards Bill, I think he=20 intended for all of us to let it drop. Let's not make him send each of us a personalized request to do so. -Oly On Friday 07 February 2003 07:52 am, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes: > > Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate > > behaviour for a committer. > > Bill is not a committer, has never been, and after this thread quite > probably never will be. > > DES To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 6:39: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071E537B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B2343F93 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:38:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h17EcSHl004158 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9Y0NM00.DCT; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:38:10 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:38:06 -0500 Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030206175143.E15295@sasami.jurai.net> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Note: i've trimmed the cross-posts. On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 06:00 PM, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote: >> If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that >> you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs >> and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole >> java >> porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we >> would >> have certainly consulted you had I known." >> >> Now is that so hard? > > You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition. > One typically does demand something. And unless you are truly humble, doing something for recognition is not so far fetched. > If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't > seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort > of > compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your > work. > You can expect recognition for your work, that is not an unusual expectation. > Rational people don't go stomping around demanding that the world be > perfect for them. > rational is such a loaded word. In this case, it really is almost a classic customer service type of issue. You have someone contacting you with a problem and they vent some initially. They get no response so that just escalates it, they then react stronger and the response they get goads them more.... When in a position of power, dealing with someone like this, you do not goad them into reaction, you respond politely even if you want to pound them with a sledgehammer. If you are equals then whatever, but when you have one person in a position of power dealing with someone less then it's up to the person with the power to respond properly and control the situation not let it get out of control. That said, expecting some recognition for something you worked on is not unreasonable. Not getting it and asking for it is also not unreasonable. - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkPE0ueV8VtPCL3dEQLoxgCg4IAF0aoMeGi19jsoaW1kIctEE00AoLew eH42BcjjCJEvejPDvC6Owe+t =pznI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 6:52: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46F037B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-89.apple.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A8C43F3F for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h17Eq3Sk010911 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9Y1AR00.59K; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:52:03 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:52:03 -0500 Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , To: Narvi From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030206180952.O43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 11:11 AM, Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > >> --- Larry Sica ha scritto: > ----- >> ... >>> >>> So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole >>> want to target this >>> user audience? Is there the collective will to make >>> that a reality? >>> If the answer is no, I would think resources are >>> best directed >>> elsewhere perhaps? >>> >> Not really, but that doesn't mean FreeBSD can't offer >> the tools to do that in a future. Right now I would >> prefer we provide more tools for the embedded market.. >> ATM.. video broadcasting systems in a metro near you, >> etc .. ;) >> > > seeing as there are well-maintained packages of many "desktopy" > things, obviously not everybody agrees. > Well some are better maintained than others imho. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 6:55: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A306737B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-97.apple.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361D643F93 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:55:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h17Et2Fw007561 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9Y1FP00.S9D; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 06:55:01 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:54:59 -0500 Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , To: Narvi From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030206170542.T43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-Id: <20D3115E-3AAC-11D7-8AC2-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 10:33 AM, Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > >> >> This is probably the most important aspect of any desktop. A coherent >> system. A desktop needs consistency, ease of use and applications. >> >> Sometime too much choice is just as bad, or worse, than no choice at >> all. I want to be able to setup a system that will look and feel the >> same for 99% of cases. I want to be able to use quicken, or word, or >> that cool photo app. I want my itunes, my instant messenger. That is >> what people say. Most don't have the time or care to get deeply >> involved in their computer, they want it to be just another electronic >> device they use, like a vcr, or a tv. >> >> So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole want to target this >> user audience? Is there the collective will to make that a reality? >> If the answer is no, I would think resources are best directed >> elsewhere perhaps? >> > > There is no point in dragging - or trying to drag - FreeBSD as a whole > into this. Its not useful and furthermore not the way things get done. > They way to get things done is: > > * find similarily minded people who want to see it happen > Perhaps, but there also needs to be some level of commitment at the core level. And I don't just mean core@, i mean a willingness overall to have things move in that direction on some level. > * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly > your target audience is > Well that is a given, trying to please everyone all of the time is impossible. > * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from > the first two parts to end up with a desktop package > This is not so simple. There are more factors than just what someone likes to use. What I like or you like may be horrible for the target audience. You have to worry about maintainability among other things. Compatability, future compatability, etc etc... > But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky > decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE > (alphabetical ordering). > Yes, also when using a third party base you lose some control. Since now you have to compensate for their packages and quirks and bugs and localizations. - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkPIxeeV8VtPCL3dEQJT5gCfdt+kBegeiQSjeniirqZY1hb1RC0AnjNP 6PivUtGuPbxdrOmbQsNENsu9 =AcnM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 7: 7:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F0837B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 07:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49C043F93 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 07:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (123-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.123]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00A8120370 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:07:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3E43CC65.A20418DB@emailrob.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 09:10:29 -0600 From: rob spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues References: <200302070848.h178mTaX011012@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > Sort of. I believe that it is the Japanese who say that if > someone loses his temper, he automatically loses the argument. > > If you can't keep control, you shouldn't be playing the game. this is one form. another, which is particularly amusing to observe and which comes to us from the 24-hour floggers of current events, comes from politics and policy. in this arena, it is considered impolitic to lose one's temper. conclusive evidence that one party to a discussion has determined for themselves that they have lost the debate is when they shift to "harrumph - i am so offended; to think that i, a Good Person, would have been deceived into engaging in debate with a neanderthal such as you" mode and make an "ad hominem" attack. in spite of this shift, they retain both politeness and quiet tone. currently, two of the most popular and, therefore, least effective of these attacks are variants of: a] "you're a racist" and b] "you just want to help your rich friends". polite harrumphness: whatever the topic, you can bet the mortgage. rob spellberg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 10:48: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361DB37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:48:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496E143FD7 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:48:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h17Im2Os038792; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:48:02 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h17Im0C5038789; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:48:01 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:48:00 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Larry Sica Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <20D3115E-3AAC-11D7-8AC2-000393A335A2@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030207193738.J43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 10:33 AM, Narvi wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > > >> > >> This is probably the most important aspect of any desktop. A coherent > >> system. A desktop needs consistency, ease of use and applications. > >> > >> Sometime too much choice is just as bad, or worse, than no choice at > >> all. I want to be able to setup a system that will look and feel the > >> same for 99% of cases. I want to be able to use quicken, or word, or > >> that cool photo app. I want my itunes, my instant messenger. That is > >> what people say. Most don't have the time or care to get deeply > >> involved in their computer, they want it to be just another electronic > >> device they use, like a vcr, or a tv. > >> > >> So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole want to target this > >> user audience? Is there the collective will to make that a reality? > >> If the answer is no, I would think resources are best directed > >> elsewhere perhaps? > >> > > > > There is no point in dragging - or trying to drag - FreeBSD as a whole > > into this. Its not useful and furthermore not the way things get done. > > They way to get things done is: > > > > * find similarily minded people who want to see it happen > > > > Perhaps, but there also needs to be some level of commitment at the > core level. And I don't just mean core@, i mean a willingness overall > to have things move in that direction on some level. > I think there is sufficent amount of this > > * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly > > your target audience is > > > > Well that is a given, trying to please everyone all of the time is > impossible. > Exactly - and different groups are best served by different > > > * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from > > the first two parts to end up with a desktop package > > > > This is not so simple. There are more factors than just what someone > likes to use. What I like or you like may be horrible for the target > audience. You have to worry about maintainability among other > things. Compatability, future compatability, etc etc... > This is why you need to deal with the decisions - and make the ones that may seem the wrong ones for you *personaly*, but are a better fit for the target audience. > > > But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky > > decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE > > (alphabetical ordering). > > > > Yes, also when using a third party base you lose some control. Since > now you have to compensate for their packages and quirks and bugs and > localizations. > Its unlikely you will have the resources to start something like gnomeor kde from scratch, and imho an utter waste of time. Instead you should start with the base and add your own customisation layer that fixes up some of the things and changes others. > - --Larry > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta > > iQA/AwUBPkPIxeeV8VtPCL3dEQJT5gCfdt+kBegeiQSjeniirqZY1hb1RC0AnjNP > 6PivUtGuPbxdrOmbQsNENsu9 > =AcnM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 11: 1: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE9B37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A38543F75 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h17J0rrY027675 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9YCTG00.1F0; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:00:52 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:00:48 -0500 Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , To: Narvi From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030207193738.J43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-Id: <78721AF2-3ACE-11D7-8AC2-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 01:48 PM, Narvi wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > > Exactly - and different groups are best served by different > >> >>> * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from >>> the first two parts to end up with a desktop package >>> >> >> This is not so simple. There are more factors than just what someone >> likes to use. What I like or you like may be horrible for the target >> audience. You have to worry about maintainability among other >> things. Compatability, future compatability, etc etc... >> > > This is why you need to deal with the decisions - and make the ones > that > may seem the wrong ones for you *personaly*, but are a better fit for > the > target audience. > >> >>> But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky >>> decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE >>> (alphabetical ordering). >>> >> >> Yes, also when using a third party base you lose some control. Since >> now you have to compensate for their packages and quirks and bugs and >> localizations. >> > > Its unlikely you will have the resources to start something like > gnomeor > kde from scratch, and imho an utter waste of time. Instead you should > start with the base and add your own customisation layer that fixes up > some of the things and changes others. > You misundestood me here, I was not saying not to use one or the other, merely that there will always be some part that is not under one's control fully. - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkQCY+eV8VtPCL3dEQJTswCg2bdJgwIou/4eesAjDVEUT0llRsYAn36a xGXtyVCZN6tkJdvB9gr4dl+h =Afib -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 11:21:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D3D37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0850943FBD for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h17JLhOs039209; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:21:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h17JLhXF039206; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:21:43 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:21:43 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Larry Sica Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status) In-Reply-To: <78721AF2-3ACE-11D7-8AC2-000393A335A2@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030207212116.H43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > > You misundestood me here, I was not saying not to use one or the other, > merely that there will always be some part that is not under one's > control fully. > > Ah, ok. But this is always true 8-) > - --Larry > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta > > iQA/AwUBPkQCY+eV8VtPCL3dEQJTswCg2bdJgwIou/4eesAjDVEUT0llRsYAn36a > xGXtyVCZN6tkJdvB9gr4dl+h > =Afib > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 12:19: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5659B37B401; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F14443FB1; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:19:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: by testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C6D0ECF49; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:18:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id C130CCD23; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:18:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:18:57 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Randall Hamilton Cc: Bill Huey , Max Khon , Marc van Kempen , John Polstra , "John L. Utz III" , Brent Verner , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rwatson@freesbsd.org, calvin.austin@sun.com, brian@collab.net, bod@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) In-Reply-To: <000b01c2ce8a$468ed650$0301a8c0@nitedog> Message-ID: <20030207140859.D14822@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> <20030207062013.A46600@iclub.nsu.ru> <20030207011437.GE3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207013834.U10604@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> <000b01c2ce8a$468ed650$0301a8c0@nitedog> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Randall Hamilton wrote: > Generally, When a group of people(Read: Corperation) are looking > to finance and/or fund a major development process, they do so only > after they research WHAT they are doing. The half ass approch of > saying "dude, you know anyone into this whole java thing?" really > does not cut it. There is a reasons that corperations spend > millions on research, focus groups, and testing on any product they > release....anyone care to wager what it is? Everybody who thinks the FF needed to first do more "research" obviously fails to understand the fact that they are volunteers, and they are already doing as much as they can on their own time, on their own dime. Who is to spend the time to do this research? They did as much research as they could afford and thought was necessary, and that research was to talk with their two contacts in the project. That IS research. Maybe, once the FF has large enough amounts of donations rolling in, they'll be able to distrust everybody they want to give money to and hire a private investigator to go around and ferret out all of the Black Helicopters. Until then, they don't and can't. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, ARM, and S/390 under development - http://www.freebsd.org No trees were harmed in the composition of this message, although some electrons were mildly inconvenienced. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 12:35:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CDF37B405; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.nfy.ca (zeus.nfy.ca [204.244.63.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918B343FCB; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:35:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mayo@nfy.ca) Received: from nfy.ca (ajhc11noy2ng.bc.hsia.telus.net [64.180.250.89]) by zeus.nfy.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796AB20B200; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:35:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E4418D5.10105@nfy.ca> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 12:36:37 -0800 From: Mayo Jordanov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) References: <20030206202913.GA2285@gnuppy.monkey.org> <01E2A478-3A25-11D7-8CFD-0003930B8FFA@bowtie.nl> <20030207062013.A46600@iclub.nsu.ru> <20030207011437.GE3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207013834.U10604@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> <000b01c2ce8a$468ed650$0301a8c0@nitedog> <20030207140859.D14822@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> In-Reply-To: <20030207140859.D14822@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Dillon wrote: >On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Randall Hamilton wrote: > > > >> Generally, When a group of people(Read: Corperation) are looking >>to finance and/or fund a major development process, they do so only >>after they research WHAT they are doing. The half ass approch of >>saying "dude, you know anyone into this whole java thing?" really >>does not cut it. There is a reasons that corperations spend >>millions on research, focus groups, and testing on any product they >>release....anyone care to wager what it is? >> >> > >Everybody who thinks the FF needed to first do more "research" >obviously fails to understand the fact that they are volunteers, and >they are already doing as much as they can on their own time, on their >own dime. Who is to spend the time to do this research? They did as >much research as they could afford and thought was necessary, and that >research was to talk with their two contacts in the project. That IS >research. Maybe, once the FF has large enough amounts of donations >rolling in, they'll be able to distrust everybody they want to give >money to and hire a private investigator to go around and ferret out >all of the Black Helicopters. Until then, they don't and can't. > Could you stop this discussion in this list already PLEASE? This is getting totaly off topic, and I think that's what the -chat list is for. I get enough email during the day, I don't need even more, and that's why I did not sign up for the -chat list. And if I remember right, there was number of requests to stop this discussion in this list already. If you are doing reply to all just take java@freebsd.org out of the CC/TO fields. It's not that hard. Someone who is on the the -chat list, rely time message too please. (Don't think it will get there if I'm not gined up) Thanks, mayo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 15:52:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F364637B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 15:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from citymail.com.tw (148.1.30.61.isp.tfn.net.tw [61.30.1.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4E143FD7 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 15:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chin1122@citymail.com.tw) From: jerry@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ¦¬¤J¼W¥[ªº¤èªk Reply-To: ch1n1122@citymail.com.tw Date: 08 Feb 2003 08:12:11 +0800 Organization: Foobar Inc. X-Mailer: Gammadyne Mailer x-delete-me: 1 (this tells Gammadyne's server to delete the message) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20030207235202.CD4E143FD7@mx1.FreeBSD.org> To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¦L¶r¾÷

·s¦~§ª«°e±z¤@¥x¦L¶r¾÷ ...

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 16:34:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F58837B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 16:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntl.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1DF43FAF for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 16:34:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntl.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h180aTm8055285 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:36:29 GMT (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost) by aqua.lan.palfreman.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h180aTeg055282 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:36:29 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:36:13 +0000 (GMT) From: William Palfreman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: OT: Tuxedo.org? Message-ID: <20030208003024.Q283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sorry to disrupt the Bill & Matt show, but am I the only one whose getting really weird things off my hero, Eric S. Raymond's homepage, www.tuxedo.org/~esr ? And since when has his IP address resolved to dsl092-236-083.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net? I assumed someone was playing a little joke on me at first, but I'm getting the same from my shell account too. - -- W. Palfreman. Tel: 0771 355 0354 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+RFENlEOQDkvPqLYRAjXDAJsHbKUem01/++bc3z20iSauFKaw4QCfdWgt p6WBi28qfbc8ZBemaS4uwJ0= =u/Dq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 17:26:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD98F37B401; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AF943F93; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:26:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18hJks-0000n8-00; Fri, 07 Feb 2003 17:26:06 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:26:06 -0800 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Core Team , "Bill Huey (Hui)" Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) Message-ID: <20030208012606.GC2538@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <20030207011612.GF3899@gnuppy.monkey.org> <200302060841.h168ffaX099401@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030206090130.GB6076@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030206040515.GA4682@gnuppy.monkey.org> <20030207025632.GJ92901@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Bill Huey (Hui) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:52:43PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Bill is not a committer, has never been, and after this thread quite > probably never will be. Frank, I don't care, but you should since you've just lost a highly technical person that was capable of doing KSE/kernel work. You're attitude in this regard isn't very inclusive. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 17:38:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE3D37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E554143FA3 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:38:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h181ckA1013306 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([68.39.203.40]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H9YV8M00.CCJ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:38:46 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:33:24 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: Tuxedo.org? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: William Palfreman From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030208003024.Q283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Message-Id: <5064490F-3B05-11D7-8DC9-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 07:36 PM, William Palfreman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Sorry to disrupt the Bill & Matt show, but am I the only one whose > getting really weird things off my hero, Eric S. Raymond's homepage, > www.tuxedo.org/~esr ? And since when has his IP address resolved to > dsl092-236-083.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net? > > I assumed someone was playing a little joke on me at first, but I'm > getting the same from my shell account too. > Not from here. It resolves to eff.org - --Larry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPkRfpueV8VtPCL3dEQIwJACfa+2BIHmtmcZZi0B7PhbqCiYNYcMAn1oh H0t+n3nvEo+YacrKm/QB6QRR =8AGn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 17:44:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373E837B645 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaw.ca (hnllhi1-ar2-4-63-117-049.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net [4.63.117.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F203043FBD for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:44:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eremusweso@shaw.ca) Message-ID: <001500e5da16$cec68268$42032706@kvsblwc.hyv> From: To: Subject: digital drug Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:33:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Vo<!ni>odooM<!sovn>achine.bz
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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 18:41:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C39537B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntl.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6B143FE1 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:41:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntl.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h182hjm8055671; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 02:43:45 GMT (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost) by aqua.lan.palfreman.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h182hjsh055668; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 02:43:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 02:43:45 +0000 (GMT) From: William Palfreman To: Larry Sica Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: Tuxedo.org? In-Reply-To: <5064490F-3B05-11D7-8DC9-000393A335A2@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030208024127.T283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <5064490F-3B05-11D7-8DC9-000393A335A2@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > ----------------------------- PGP Command Output ----------------------------- > gpg: Signature made Sat Feb 8 01:38:46 2003 GMT using DSA key ID 4F08BDDD > gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found > ------------------------------- End PGP Output ------------------------------- > > Not from here. It resolves to eff.org > > --Larry Yeah, but _why_? EFF is not Eric S Raymond. It also comes out as the Debian homepage, ethics.org and someone called Wayreth. -- W. Palfreman. Tel: 0771 355 0354 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 22:40:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF70D37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8FA43F85 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spcoltri@omcl.org) Received: from h-69-3-76-205.phndaz91.covad.net ([69.3.76.205] helo=omcl.org) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18hOem-0001Ra-00; Fri, 07 Feb 2003 22:40:08 -0800 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Larry Sica , William Palfreman Subject: OT: Tuxedo.org? In-Reply-To: <20030208024127.T283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:41:17 -0700 From: Steve Coltrin Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Raymond's moved his stuff to www.catb.org/ . The random redirect seems to be an _exceedingly_ lame way to get people to update their links. -spc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 4:44: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6623537B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 04:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntl.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4304A43F75 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 04:43:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntl.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h18CkAm8060471 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:46:10 GMT (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost) by aqua.lan.palfreman.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h18CkA5e060468 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:46:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:46:10 +0000 (GMT) From: William Palfreman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tuxedo.org? (fwd) Message-ID: <20030208124242.S283@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh. So not got at then. Pity there is no explanation on either tuxedo.org or catb.org about this. Bill P. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Brad Knowles At 8:58 AM +0100 2003/02/08, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Yup, I also saw this behaviour 2 or 3 days ago, looking for the > fetchmail home page. Hacked or an experiment from Eric Raymond? My understanding is that the domain was owned by someone else who was letting Eric use it, and Eric wanted to move to a different hosting provider. The owner refused, so Eric had to go get his own domain name, which is catb.org. Meanwhile, the owner of tuxedo.org has apparently set up HTTP redirects to send people to a variety of interesting other places, presumably to get people to notice that the old URLs don't work anymore. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 7:27:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2769237B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA3D43F93 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h18FSXT5075309; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:28:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 10:26:48 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: northern snowfall , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected to chat, becuase ... well, you know] Mike Meyer wrote: > In <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net>, northern snowfall typed: > >>>>what are the bbest three languages to learn? >>> >>C, java and as many flavors of ASM as possible =) > > You're being redundant. C is just a portable ASM. Java is just a slow > portable ASM. Either one should be enough for even the most jaded > masochist. Anything with pointers in it is enough for this massochist. But I don't disagree. > How about Scheme, Eiffel and CAML? Scheme because the worlds best CS > textbook - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs by > Abelson, Sussman and Sussman - uses it. Eiffel because the worlds best > OO programming book - Object Oriented Software Construction by > Bertrand Meyer - uses it, and CAML because every programmer should be > exposed to FP at least once. > > How about HTML, XML and WML? I'm surprised that you consider these "languages". I lump then in the catagory of "data formats". I've even seen some people call them "protocols" as they resemble that more than a language. > Seriously, this is just idle speculation until the OP bothers to tell > us what he intends to use the knowledge for. It's odd that we haven't heard from him since the first post. Someone else speculated that he was trying to start a long-winded conversation, and I suspect that may be the case. Not that I mind, but it doesn't belong on questions@. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 10:31:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9EE37B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr [163.178.60.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1580E43F75 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:31:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fabmirha@ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr) Received: by ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (Postfix, from userid 5481) id A05D22ABF0; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:32:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C33B26DDD for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:32:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:32:57 -0600 (CST) From: Fabio Miranda Hamburger To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: we rule! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I cvsup to 4-stable from an old release, and I notice each time I log on a "tip" or advice is shown on the screen. That is pretty great, You learn alot each time you use freebsd. I like the style of freebsd, It's polite, serious, following all standats, Freebsd doesnt pretend to be better than any os. for example, there is a file in slackware that says "powered by ms-dos", that is pretty stupid and freebsd will never do that. Many linux distro shows the kernel version on the telnet banner, freebsd doenst do that cuz have security in mind. freebsd donest come with "featurefull" shells and anonying colors or shell prompts, it's up to the user to use them, freebsd donest assume by default you want "all the features" turned on. I am proud of FreeBSD, in the begging I got mad a lot of time, for example, I couldnt past from 3-stable to 4, It has been long time and now I understand the importance of "README" files and how to ask good questions on mailing list... I really like FreeBSD and for me It's the best os ever. --- Fabio Andres Miranda Ingenieria de sistemas informaticos Universidad Latina - Costa Rica To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 10:44:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB5037B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mired.org (ip68-97-54-220.ok.ok.cox.net [68.97.54.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B930E43F3F for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1045161877.201bc8@mired.org) Received: (qmail 34626 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2003 18:44:37 -0000 Received: from localhost.mired.org (HELO guru.mired.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.mired.org with SMTP; 8 Feb 2003 18:44:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:36 -0600 To: Bill Moran Cc: northern snowfall , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages In-Reply-To: <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`; h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.69 (Count Fleet) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com>, Bill Moran typed: > [Redirected to chat, becuase ... well, you know] Thank you. > > How about HTML, XML and WML? > I'm surprised that you consider these "languages". I lump then in the > catagory of "data formats". I've even seen some people call them > "protocols" as they resemble that more than a language. It says they are languages right in the name - markup languages. I don't consider them programming languages, though. It's possible to define a programming language in XML - I know, I've programmed in one. Given that, it's hard not to consider them as languages. > > Seriously, this is just idle speculation until the OP bothers to tell > > us what he intends to use the knowledge for. > It's odd that we haven't heard from him since the first post. Someone > else speculated that he was trying to start a long-winded conversation, > and I suspect that may be the case. Not that I mind, but it doesn't > belong on questions@. That someone else was me. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 10:52:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1608937B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mired.org (ip68-97-54-220.ok.ok.cox.net [68.97.54.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 07DC243FDF for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:52:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1045162370.9785ae@mired.org) Received: (qmail 34725 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2003 18:52:50 -0000 Received: from localhost.mired.org (HELO guru.mired.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.mired.org with SMTP; 8 Feb 2003 18:52:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15941.20993.593940.933429@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:52:49 -0600 To: Bill Moran Cc: northern snowfall , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages In-Reply-To: <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`; h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.69 (Count Fleet) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm going to say one more thing on this subject, that's probably going to upset a lot of people. If the object is employability, my answers are SQL, VB and C#. Based on figures I've seen elsewhere, and my watching various technical help wanted locations, there are far more people wanted to write SQL than anything else. The problem is that it's balkanized, so that knowing the Postgres flavor may not work in getting you a job if they want someone who knows the Oracle flavor. VB just edges out perl, java and C++, which seem to be about even with each other. VB is also balkanized a bit, as each application apparently has it's own variant. You may wind up in the same situation as with SQL. C# actually trails perl, java and C++, but not by a lot. Since it's the fastest growing of the four, that may change in the near future. Obviously, Perl, Java and C++ are the choices if you don't like the balkanization of SQL and VB, and the newness of C#. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 11:53:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C859C37B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAA843FA3 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id BF9D7536E; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:53:17 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mike Meyer Cc: Bill Moran , northern snowfall , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:53:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <15941.20993.593940.933429@guru.mired.org> (Mike Meyer's message of "Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:52:49 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20993.593940.933429@guru.mired.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > VB just edges out perl, java and C++, which seem to be about even with > each other. VB is also balkanized a bit, as each application > apparently has it's own variant. Not just each application, but each version of each application, and that includes nationalization (they translate VB along with the rest of the application). There's also a dotnet version which I've heard is significantly different from previous versions (the dotnet platform is allegedly so idiosyncratic they couldn't port VB to it without a lot of modifications) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 12:44:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC6B37B401; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8789F43F93; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bham@skunkbox.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB231C3DE7; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id DEA85393F; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Ham To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Project Status Report Reply-To: bham@skunkbox.com X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030208204407.DEA85393F@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fellow committers, After reading this month's Greg Lehey's Daemonnews column,=20 I feel the need to share more info with our users.=20 Here's a list of some FreeBSD developers, and a rating of=20 their current work. Ade Barkah : 1, Normal Adrian Chadd : 1, Normal Akinori MUSHA : 5, portmgr Alan Clegg : 1, Normal Alexander Geflenbain : 1, Normal Alfred Perlstein : -1, Asshole Anders Nordby : -1, Redundant Andreas Klemm : 1, Normal Andrew R. Reiter : 1, Normal Andrzej Bialecki : 1, Normal Archie Cobbs : 1, Normal Atsushi Murai : 1, Normal Benno Rice : 3, Interesting (PPC work) Bernd Walter : 1, Normal Bill Fenner : 5, Distfiles guy Bill Fumerola : -5, The biggest asshole on earth Bill Swingle : 1, Normal Boris Popov : 1, Normal Bosko Milekic : -1, Troll Boyd Faulkner : 1, Normal Brian S. Dean : 1, Normal Brian Somers : 1, Normal Bruce A. Mah : 3, RE CHOI Junho : 1, Normal Chad David : 3, Interesting Chris Costello : -1, Moron Chris D. Faulhaber : 1, Normal Christopher Shumway : 1, Normal Clive Lin : 1, Normal Coleman Kane : 1, Normal Crist J. Clark : 0, Offtopic Dag-Erling Smorgrav : -1, Flamebait Daichi GOTO : 1, Normal Dan Moschuk : 1, Normal Daniel Baker : 1, Normal Daniel Harris : 1, Normal Daniel O'Callaghan : 1, Normal David Nugent : 1, Normal David Xu : 2, Interesting Dima Ruban : -1, Offtopic=20 Dirk Meyer : 1, Normal Dmitry Sivachenko : 1, Normal Donald Burr : 1, Normal Doug Barton : -1, Arrogant asshole Doug Rabson : -1, ex-core Duffy Penski : 1, Normal Edwin Groothuis : -1, Fuck Mavetju Eric Anholt : 3, DRI Eric Melville : 1, Normal Ernst de Haan : 3, Java work FUJISHIMA Satsuki : 1, Normal Foxfair Hu : 1, Normal Garrett Wollman : 2, Interesting Gary Palmer : 1, Normal George C A Reid : -1, Arrogant asshole Greg Lehey : -1, core Gregory Neil Shapiro : 1, Normal Gregory Sutter : 1, Normal Guy Helmer : 1, Normal Hajimu UMEMOTO : 1, Normal Hartmut Brandt : 1, Normal Hellmuth Michaelis : 1, Normal Hye-Shik Chang : 1, Normal Jacques Vidrine : 5, security officer James L. Robinson : 1, Normal Jan Koum : 1, Normal Jean-Marc Zucconi : 1, Normal Jeffrey Hsu : 1, Normal Jeremy Lea : 1, Normal Jing-Tang Keith Jang : 1, Normal Joerg Wunsch : 1, Normal Johann Visagie : 1, Normal John Baldwin : -1, Flamebait John Birrell : 1, Normal John Fieber : 1, Normal John H. Aughey : 1, Normal John Polstra : -1, moron John W. De Boskey : 1, Normal John-Mark Gurney : 1, Normal Jonathan Chen : 1, Normal Jonathan Lemon : 3, Interesting Jonathan M. Bresler : 1, Normal Jordan K. Hubbard : -1, ex-core Jose M. Alcaide : -1, Terrorist Joseph Koshy : 1, Normal Juli Mallett : -1, Lesbo Julian Elischer : 5, KSE Jun Kuriyama : 1, Normal Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino : 5, guru Justin M. Seger : 1, Normal KATO Takenori : 1, Normal Kevin Lo : 1, Normal Luoqi Chen : 1, Normal Maho Nakata : 1, Normal Marc van Woerkom : 1, Normal Marcel Moolenaar : -1, Arrogant asshole Mark J. 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Ham and the rest of RE _____________________________________________________________ Join the Skunky email revolution at http://www.skunkbox.com=20 It's very Skunky and it's free !! Stone Junction - Who ! http://www.stone-junction.com _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No = Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=3Dtag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 16:46:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB06237B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9203043FAF for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h190lpT5075567; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:47:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 19:46:12 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: northern snowfall , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > In <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com>, Bill Moran typed: >>>How about HTML, XML and WML? >> >>I'm surprised that you consider these "languages". I lump then in the >>catagory of "data formats". I've even seen some people call them >>"protocols" as they resemble that more than a language. > > It says they are languages right in the name - markup languages. I > don't consider them programming languages, though. It's possible to > define a programming language in XML - I know, I've programmed in > one. Given that, it's hard not to consider them as languages. OK, I'll give you XML, but despite the name, I don't really consider HTML a "language". >>>Seriously, this is just idle speculation until the OP bothers to tell >>>us what he intends to use the knowledge for. >> >>It's odd that we haven't heard from him since the first post. Someone >>else speculated that he was trying to start a long-winded conversation, >>and I suspect that may be the case. Not that I mind, but it doesn't >>belong on questions@. > > That someone else was me. Oh. Well, there you go. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 17: 0:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7796A37B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7CE43F93 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h19120T5075579; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:02:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E45A825.5040500@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:00:21 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: northern snowfall , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20993.593940.933429@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > I'm going to say one more thing on this subject, that's probably going > to upset a lot of people. Well, I'm just sort of upset all the time. > If the object is employability, my answers are SQL, VB and C#. > > Based on figures I've seen elsewhere, and my watching various > technical help wanted locations, there are far more people wanted to > write SQL than anything else. The problem is that it's balkanized, so > that knowing the Postgres flavor may not work in getting you a job if > they want someone who knows the Oracle flavor. Sheese ... you'd think I could live more comfortably then. Considering I have experience with MySQL, MSSQL, PostgreSQL, PHP interfaces, FoxPro, as well as perl and C. I must be promoting myself poorly. But I don't disagree that those languages are popular. I don't see what the big deal is about moving from one version of SQL to another. It is a bit of a slowdown to learn the idiosyncrosies of a new SQL server, but not debilitating or anything. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 17: 6:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C74F37B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.det3.ameritech.net (mailhost2-sfldmi.sfldmi.ameritech.net [206.141.193.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8864043F93 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbailey27@ameritech.net) Received: from ameritech.net ([67.38.16.140]) by mailhost.det3.ameritech.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20030209010550.MWNM20886.mailhost.det3.ameritech.net@ameritech.net>; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:05:50 -0500 Message-ID: <3E45A960.9090903@ameritech.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:05:36 -0500 From: northern snowfall User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020518 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net, dbailey27@ameritech.net Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK, I'll give you XML, but despite the name, I don't really consider > HTML a "language". Its still a language. *shrug* A language is defined as any stream of mnemonics that can be interpreted lexically. A binary stream is a language in the scope of its mnemonics: 1 and 0. I'm sure many "civilized" individuals didn't consider the relevance of the Navaho language until it helped us win a war. Don "coming down the mountain... I met a child, man, she had pin eyes" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 18:44:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C569737B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1359243FA3 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:44:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003020902444200100g22bpe>; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 02:44:42 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h192hA5F077195; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h192h5Yd077192; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 Feb 2003 18:43:04 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran writes: > OK, I'll give you XML, but despite the name, I don't really consider > HTML a "language". XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what to do. Of course, that could also be said about object code which is seldom thought of as a language, and even data which is used to control the computer. The latter doesn't seem like language, and I can see how you might want to classify HTML as data. I wonder if it's possible to distinguish between language and data, generally; two things we are so used to consider different because of their distinct definitions in the context of CPU design where code and data are handled separately. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 19:29: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A7B37B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD7843FAF for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:28:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h193UGT5075649; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:30:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E45CAE7.9020102@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:28:39 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: northern snowfall Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <3E45A960.9090903@ameritech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org northern snowfall wrote: >> OK, I'll give you XML, but despite the name, I don't really consider >> HTML a "language". > > Its still a language. *shrug* > A language is defined as any stream of mnemonics that can be interpreted > lexically. A binary stream is a language in the scope of its mnemonics: 1 > and 0. Well, I don't know where you got that definition, but both Merriam-Webster and foldoc agree with you enough that I'll have to bow out and admit that you, Gary, and Mike are right. Even if I don't like it ;) > I'm sure many "civilized" individuals didn't consider the relevance > of the Navaho language until it helped us win a war. Well, this is even further off-topic and has more to do with how big of assholes people have been all through history, and less to do with the official classification of whether or not something is a computer language or not. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 20: 3:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FB937B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.det2.ameritech.net (mailhost1-sfldmi.sfldmi.ameritech.net [206.141.193.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D3E43FAF for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:03:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbailey27@ameritech.net) Received: from ameritech.net ([67.38.16.140]) by mailhost.det2.ameritech.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20030209040310.FCBB26543.mailhost.det2.ameritech.net@ameritech.net>; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 23:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: <3E45D2EA.9040209@ameritech.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 23:02:50 -0500 From: northern snowfall User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020518 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@freebsd.org, matrix@altima.net, dbailey27@ameritech.net Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <3E45A960.9090903@ameritech.net> <3E45CAE7.9020102@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, I don't know where you got that definition, but both > Merriam-Webster > and foldoc agree with you enough that I'll have to bow out and admit that > you, Gary, and Mike are right. > Even if I don't like it ;) Same definition, different wording. > Well, this is even further off-topic and has more to do with how big > of assholes people have been all through history, and less to do with > the official classification of whether or not something is a computer > language or not. Its not off topic at all =) The point is that individuals tend to rationalize their perception of society, environment, self, etc. based on ideals that help create some kind of equilibrium relative to ego. This is what you would call "being an asshole" when individuals prioritize their need for equilibrium over an understanding that other individual's scope of self/research has worth as well. You're talking about "official classifications" when you don't attempt to prove official class, rather, your own perception of "language". I see this as a parallel to the Navaho instance in that something is only "relevant" to individuals when it benefits them directly. Indirect benefits tend to become ignored and deprioritized in favor of a pseudo sense of self worth. HTML/XML/and friends are all languages (despite attempts to underplay their relevance) whose usage is directly relative to a developer's facet of research). Don > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 22: 7: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E9737B401 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1B543FB1 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:07:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1966urM000437; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:06:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1966u7I000436; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:06:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:06:56 -0800 From: David Schultz To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Bill Moran , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209060656.GA398@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Bill Moran , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Gary W. Swearingen : > Bill Moran writes: > > > OK, I'll give you XML, but despite the name, I don't really consider > > HTML a "language". > > XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what > to do. Sure. Just don't categorize them as such on your resume. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message