From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 20:42:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FF616A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A26F43D2D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2T4fsGB023388 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:41:54 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2T4fscK023387 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:41:54 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:41:54 +0800 (WST) From: Charon Message-Id: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 04:42:17 -0000 IBM is currently pushing Linux on its big iron offerings. What similar capacity options are available for FreeBSD based installations? Has IBM actually ported Linux or are they running a smoke and mirrors setup with Linux running in a vmware like environment? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 04:19:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC88E16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 04:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6692F43D66 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 04:19:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from [192.168.2.100] ([24.43.93.57]) by fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.comESMTP <20040329121854.SDTM163224.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@[192.168.2.100]>; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:18:54 -0500 From: Mike Jeays To: Charon In-Reply-To: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1080562783.3107.9.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 29 Mar 2004 07:19:43 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.43.93.57] using ID at Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:18:54 -0500 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:19:46 -0000 On Sun, 2004-03-28 at 23:41, Charon wrote: > IBM is currently pushing Linux on its big iron offerings. What similar > capacity options are available for FreeBSD based installations? Has IBM > actually ported Linux or are they running a smoke and mirrors setup > with Linux running in a vmware like environment? > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" IBM implemented its VM Operating system many years ago. It is capable of running guest operating systems that "believe" they are running on a bare machine. VM could be considered "prior art" for VMWare. Linux runs as a guest OS under VM, along with the conventional mainframe OS, MVS. VM can run many copies of Linux simultaneously. I am not sure it is quite fair to call this a "smoke and mirrors" port. Disclaimer: I don't work for IBM, and someone from the company might like to explain this more accurately? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 07:10:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47C216A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1720543D2D for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2TFAVGB024723 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:10:31 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from root@localhost)i2TFAVKa024722 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:10:31 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from root) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:10:31 +0800 From: Charlie Root To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040329151031.GA24674@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <1080562783.3107.9.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1080562783.3107.9.camel@chaucer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:10:56 -0000 On Mon, Mar 29, 2004 at 07:19:43AM -0500, Mike Jeays wrote: > On Sun, 2004-03-28 at 23:41, Charon wrote: > > IBM is currently pushing Linux on its big iron offerings. What similar > > IBM implemented its VM Operating system many years ago. It is capable of > running guest operating systems that "believe" they are running on a I was just curious. A local news site zdnet.au posted a story about Centrelink (large IT user in Australia) stalling Linux deployment because of SCO FUD. Someone mentioned that BSD couldn't be used because it couldn't run on a mainframe so I figured I would ask. > MVS. VM can run many copies of Linux simultaneously. I am not sure it > is quite fair to call this a "smoke and mirrors" port. I wasn't dissing IBM :-), shouldave used a different term. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 10:30:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6E316A584 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F32F43D1D for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:1647) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B81WP-00033C-49; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:30:05 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:20:34 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id HX2W37BD; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:19:16 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:28:00 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403291028.01102.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B81WP-00033C-49*7saRketOFQM* Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:30:28 -0000 On Sunday 28 March 2004 08:41 pm, Charon wrote: > IBM is currently pushing Linux on its big iron offerings. What > similar capacity options are available for FreeBSD based > installations? Has IBM actually ported Linux or are they running a > smoke and mirrors setup with Linux running in a vmware like > environment? IBM ported Linux itself to their mainframes. It wasn't a community project in any sense of the word. We could do this, but I don't think anyone here can afford an IBM mainframe. Heck, most of us couldn't afford the real estate to house one :-) There are practical and philosophical problems with Linux on their mainframes. First, this is a niche market. The only customers are going to be banks and other transaction-heavy Fortune 500 companies. It's a "brownie point" for Linux, but nothing to be ashamed of if you don't have it. Second, Unix and mainframes have completely different skill sets. Going with this solution means you need both mainframe and Linux administrators. Philosophically, from the Free Software side of things, it's kind of strange. You have a Free Software kernel running in a VM in a proprietary operating system on proprietary hardware with only one vendor available for support. Overall, there's few advantages for the customer, but large advantages to IBM. It would be nice if FreeBSD could run in the Z-Series, if only for the brownie points we would earn. But it would be little more than an experiment. You're not going to run a webserver on an IBM mainframe, or make it your development workstation or desktop. The only applications that would make sense could still be done cheaper on a cluster. If FreeBSD needs to expand out of its workstation/server niche, the logical area to expand to is not the mainframe market, but the embedded market. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 12:30:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCCF516A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D6143D3F for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ziggy@panix.com) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF35C984AB; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ziggy@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id i2TKUGY07843; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:30:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:30:16 -0500 From: Adam Turoff To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20040329203016.GA4496@panix.com> References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <200403291028.01102.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403291028.01102.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:30:40 -0000 On Mon, Mar 29, 2004 at 10:28:00AM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > On Sunday 28 March 2004 08:41 pm, Charon wrote: > > IBM is currently pushing Linux on its big iron offerings. What > > similar capacity options are available for FreeBSD based > > installations? Has IBM actually ported Linux or are they running a > > smoke and mirrors setup with Linux running in a vmware like > > environment? > > IBM ported Linux itself to their mainframes. It wasn't a community > project in any sense of the word. Actually, I think the initial work was done by a few hackers in Germany. I don't remember if IBM took this work and fleshed it out, or if they had a similar project already, and were waiting for customer demand to polish it up and release it. > We could do this, but I don't think > anyone here can afford an IBM mainframe. Heck, most of us couldn't > afford the real estate to house one :-) That's not strictly true anymore. I came across a reference to an open source project that provides VM hardware emulation. So you could run Linux under VM, or MVS, or any other VM hosted operating system on a stock x86 box. It was supposed to be a pretty faithful emulation, and was able to scale to a few concurrent OS instances on a reasonably powered vanilla box. Sorry, I don't have a reference for you. I don't remember where I saw it, but it was within the last 2 weeks or so. > There are practical and philosophical problems with Linux on their > mainframes. First, this is a niche market. The only customers are going > to be banks and other transaction-heavy Fortune 500 companies. It's a > "brownie point" for Linux, but nothing to be ashamed of if you don't > have it. Second, Unix and mainframes have completely different skill > sets. Going with this solution means you need both mainframe and Linux > administrators. Looking historically, yes. However, Unix is moving in this direction anyway. With UML, jail, and the like (including partitioning and virtualization of high end Solaris machines), we're moving to a situation where an admin will set up one physical machine with a dozen or so virtual environments running concurrently on that hardware. I think Linux is one step ahead at the moment -- UML or one of the other virutalized Linux/x86 environments can run multiple kernels concurrently in userland, while jail provides the ability of running the same kernel in multiple sandboxes. So while IBM's VM per se may only be interesting to the Fortune 500, virtualization is gaining traction, especially at the low end of the spectrum. ISPs for example have been offering accounts on virtual machines for a few years now. I wouldn't be surprised to see shops that used to buy vanilla boxes in groups of 4 to soon start buying boxes one one by one, adding a few GB of RAM and at least 1 TB of disk, and partitioning them on demand. > Philosophically, from the Free Software side of things, it's kind of > strange. You have a Free Software kernel running in a VM in a > proprietary operating system on proprietary hardware with only one > vendor available for support. Overall, there's few advantages for the > customer, but large advantages to IBM. That's one way to look at it. But how is this different from free software running on proprietary hardware (e.g. a PowerBook or an iMac)? > It would be nice if FreeBSD could run in the Z-Series, if only for the > brownie points we would earn. But it would be little more than an > experiment. You're not going to run a webserver on an IBM mainframe, or > make it your development workstation or desktop. The only applications > that would make sense could still be done cheaper on a cluster. Depends on the economics of the situation. There are real costs for a shop like Google to keep 10,000 machines up and running 24/7. For some customers, and for some applications, it is more cost effective to run on a Z-Series. Yes, they tend to be banks and Fortune 500. The economic conditions are not constant, nor are they universal. Z. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 12:46:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B732D16A4CF for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F01F43D1F for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:3982) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B83eH-000186-4v; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:46:21 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:36:52 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id HX2W301Y; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:35:34 -0800 From: Johnson David To: Adam Turoff Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:44:19 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <200403291028.01102.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20040329203016.GA4496@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040329203016.GA4496@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403291244.19599.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B83eH-000186-4v*/BUgX25vcZE* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:46:46 -0000 On Monday 29 March 2004 12:30 pm, Adam Turoff wrote: > So while IBM's VM per se may only be interesting to the Fortune 500, > virtualization is gaining traction, especially at the low end of the > spectrum. ISPs for example have been offering accounts on virtual > machines for a few years now. I wouldn't be surprised to see shops > that used to buy vanilla boxes in groups of 4 to soon start buying > boxes one one by one, adding a few GB of RAM and at least 1 TB of > disk, and partitioning them on demand. I don't know if this is the same thing or not, but the John Company (www.johncompanies.com) seems to be already doing this with FreeBSD. > That's one way to look at it. But how is this different from free > software running on proprietary hardware (e.g. a PowerBook or an > iMac)? It's not just the hardware, it's the fact you have to buy propriety software to run the free software. It would be like a NetBSD that required Aqua and Carbon to run on the Mac. Imagine an IBM advert saying "Free yourselves from software domination with Free Software Linux running on our Z-series mainframes! (required proprietary host OS sold separately...)" This was just one problem I saw, and not necessarily the one at the top of the list. But considering the antipathy towards proprietary software in the Linux community, I thought it strange. Somehow I can't imagine a MVS/Debian distribution :-) David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 14:06:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE9FE16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (82-44-220-218.cable.ubr10.haye.blueyonder.co.uk [82.44.220.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE4943D45 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:06:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20])i2TM6J5U062597; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:06:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2TM6JQ5045630; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:06:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost)i2TM6I2I045629; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:06:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:06:18 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20040329220618.GC713@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <200403291028.01102.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20040329203016.GA4496@panix.com> <200403291244.19599.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403291244.19599.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:06:21 -0000 --0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 29, 2004 at 12:44:19PM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > On Monday 29 March 2004 12:30 pm, Adam Turoff wrote: > > So while IBM's VM per se may only be interesting to the Fortune 500, > > virtualization is gaining traction, especially at the low end of the > > spectrum. ISPs for example have been offering accounts on virtual > > machines for a few years now. I wouldn't be surprised to see shops > > that used to buy vanilla boxes in groups of 4 to soon start buying > > boxes one one by one, adding a few GB of RAM and at least 1 TB of > > disk, and partitioning them on demand. >=20 > I don't know if this is the same thing or not, but the John Company=20 > (www.johncompanies.com) seems to be already doing this with FreeBSD. Right. JC use FreeBSD jails. I've had one with them for a while; they're a good company -- solid support, and it does exactly what it says on the tin. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAaJ3Wk6gHZCw343URAi+AAJ40l0ynYW0l7muwylgLB0tgJ0dX1wCfTrR7 zvrlqI0x12e0Q1htje/4+Bo= =xhFA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 21:30:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AAD16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from transport.cksoft.de (transport.cksoft.de [62.111.66.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D5A43D1F for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from transport.cksoft.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by transport.cksoft.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246491FF931; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by transport.cksoft.de (Postfix, from userid 66) id 2B6941FF91D; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix, from userid 1060) id 53658154F1; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:27:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C99153AA; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:27:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:27:59 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-X-Sender: bz@e0-0.zab2.int.zabbadoz.net To: Adam Turoff In-Reply-To: <20040329203016.GA4496@panix.com> Message-ID: References: <200403290441.i2T4fscK023387@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <20040329203016.GA4496@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS cksoft-s20020300-20031204bz on transport.cksoft.de cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mainframe support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:30:11 -0000 On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Adam Turoff wrote: > On Mon, Mar 29, 2004 at 10:28:00AM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > > IBM ported Linux itself to their mainframes. It wasn't a community > > project in any sense of the word. > > Actually, I think the initial work was done by a few hackers in Germany. > I don't remember if IBM took this work and fleshed it out, or if they > had a similar project already, and were waiting for customer demand to > polish it up and release it. IMHO the work was done by an IBM internal project here in Germany by the IBM Entwicklungs GmbH (with some external? people like Fritz Elfert who had worked on p.ex. isdn4linux). If I remember right a project page with some pictures had been on linux.s390.org but I am on cons25 at the moment. > > We could do this, but I don't think > > anyone here can afford an IBM mainframe. Heck, most of us couldn't > > afford the real estate to house one :-) > > That's not strictly true anymore. > > I came across a reference to an open source project that provides > VM hardware emulation. So you could run Linux under VM, or MVS, or any > other VM hosted operating system on a stock x86 box. It was supposed to > be a pretty faithful emulation, and was able to scale to a few > concurrent OS instances on a reasonably powered vanilla box. > > Sorry, I don't have a reference for you. I don't remember where I saw > it, but it was within the last 2 weeks or so. /usr/ports/emulatores/hercules/ this is ? > > It would be nice if FreeBSD could run in the Z-Series, if only for the Have a look at NetBSD. I do not know the current state of the port (or if they still work on this) but if I remember right there are a hand of people working on it ? Apart from that any port should be far more easy these days now that gcc and binutils are available but you will still need someone with enought MF experience to help and you need to get the specs for the very proprietary hardware - you do not want to get the GPLed code into a BSD kernel for an entire arch ... -- Greetings Bjoern A. Zeeb bzeeb at Zabbadoz dot NeT 56 69 73 69 74 http://www.zabbadoz.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 21:55:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B925316A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D911343D1D for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:55:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2U5tGGB026995 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:55:16 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2U5tGrM026994 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:55:16 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:55:16 +0800 (WST) From: Charon Message-Id: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:55:40 -0000 What are the obstacles along the way to adopting a more corporate/professional appeal in the layout of the freebsd.org website? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 22:07:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55AEC16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A27143D45 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:07:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A106404A; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:07:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Charon Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:07:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4068C835.24280.7871E25B@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:07:03 -0000 On 30 Mar 2004 at 13:55, Charon wrote: > What are the obstacles along the way to adopting a more > corporate/professional appeal in the layout of the freebsd.org website? My guess: someone to do the work such that the rest of the project accepts it. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 22:30:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD46216A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from web14606.mail.yahoo.com (web14606.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.224.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8829443D39 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:30:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plageotakes@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040330063015.83276.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.164.15.30] by web14606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:30:15 PST Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:30:15 -0800 (PST) From: peter lageotakes To: Charon , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:30:15 -0000 --- Charon wrote: > What are the obstacles along the way to adopting a > more corporate/professional > appeal in the layout of the freebsd.org website? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Please describe corporate and or professional. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 02:25:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDC316A4E7 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068DD43D2D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UAPPGB027627 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:25:25 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UAPPiB027626 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:25:25 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:25:25 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330102525.GA27612@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <20040330063015.83276.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330063015.83276.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:25:50 -0000 On Mon, Mar 29, 2004 at 10:30:15PM -0800, peter lageotakes wrote: > > Please describe corporate and or professional. > Hopefully a pedantic description of 'corporate' or 'professional' won't be used as a means of negating any argument. I assume we are trying to get more people to use FreeBSD for home, business, and other markets. A typical home user is going to be used to seeing things a certain way on the web. They will be using commercial sites and particularly Microsoft whenever they have to think about their operating system (downloading a patch, fetching a new version of IE, and so on). When home users look for hardware online they are likely to look first at branded sites like Compaq, Dell, HP, and so on. In summary; they will look at branded commercial sites they recall before starting to look for alternatives. For business users the situation is not much different. In this case however other factors like time constraints and vendor relations start to apply. Both groups are going to commit the error of judging a book by its cover and correspondingly theres more members in the group who value substance _and_ style. Theres also the factor of belief reinforcement. For example, if I am looking for alternatives to my current OS I will expect the competition's website to look and behave in similar ways. What for example would happen if FreeBSD's website all of a sudden used a community bbs style (phpNuke say) with all the latest FreeBSD news listed on the centreline but no other material change to content? - a casual user would immediately identify the site as a news source not an OS vendor. That same user would feel uncomfortable using the site because it violates their expectations. What I am arguing for is a change to the site to make it more like the competition. In this case RedHat, MicroSoft, IBM, and so on. At the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, converting, and supporting new users. ps: when I started hunting for a new OS around 1997/8 my selection of FreeBSD was based on the website being prettier than Net or OpenBSD's offerings. I figured at the time that if FreeBSDs web facing had a higher quality then the OS would be better. I still see a similar metric applied today by people who mistake KDE as a more advanced version of FreeBSD when compared with fvwm2 on the same OS. Today if I was placed in a similar situation with the same knowledge I had then, I probably would have gone with RedHat. I think the current site is serving its purpose and the maintainers and contributors are doing a good job but I think there is room for a little more icing to capture a larger portion of first time visitors to the site. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 02:42:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2C916A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B1443D31 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:42:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UAgSGB027687 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:42:28 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UAgSGF027686 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:42:28 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:42:28 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:42:52 -0000 Anyone care to comment on this at www.zdnet.com.au To anonymous FreeBSD user. Due to its licence, FreeBSD cannot become an enterprise platform from the vendor's perspective. They all fear heavy proprietisation and forking of any non-GPL codebase. The only OS that can fly to where the Open Source world wants it to fly is Linux, FreeBSD is now 5+ years behind in terms of enterprise readiness. Please keep up with the times and avoid this whole OS pissing contest thing. Remember, we're not talking single-CPU internet servers anymore. FreeBSD cannot scale to 64 CPUs nor does it have the hardware support necessary to breach the enterprise space. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 03:20:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36D516A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:20:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F5843D39 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:20:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (3dc39c62ca08e13a967cdfb2bb30c0e2@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UBIvS5024010; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2C53752145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:20:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:20:03 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Charon Message-ID: <20040330112002.GA31675@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:20:20 -0000 --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 01:55:16PM +0800, Charon wrote: > What are the obstacles along the way to adopting a more corporate/professional > appeal in the layout of the freebsd.org website? The first obstacle is someone coming up with something better. Please let us know when you're done :) Kris --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAaVfiWry0BWjoQKURAk1IAKDwLjDObcr4+63iuLplluL+FZKWAQCeO7l2 o8PUpwxusAFPObUSWt4i9f4= =dheD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 03:46:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CB216A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.euronet.nl (smtp0.euronet.nl [194.134.35.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B6043D54 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com (zp-c-13e65.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl [81.69.92.101]) by smtp0.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB542474D; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:45:59 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:42:25 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charon References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:46:01 -0000 Charon wrote: > Anyone care to comment on this at www.zdnet.com.au > > To anonymous FreeBSD user. > > Due to its licence, FreeBSD cannot become an enterprise platform > from the vendor's perspective. They all fear heavy proprietisation > and forking of any non-GPL codebase. > > > The only OS that can fly to where the Open Source world wants it to > fly is Linux, FreeBSD is now 5+ years behind in terms of enterprise > readiness. Please keep up with the times and avoid this whole OS > pissing contest thing. > > Remember, we're not talking single-CPU internet servers anymore. > FreeBSD cannot scale to 64 CPUs nor does it have the hardware support > necessary to breach the enterprise space. My comment: I'm sorry, but you're totally full of shit. You've obviously not looked at the amount of LARGE companies that use FreeBSD. These include Yahoo, Juniper, NASA and MANY others. Additionally, unless you're contributing code, don't say things like this unless you're willing to take these things up. Want to get SMP support ``enterprise ready'' (as you term it per buzzwords)? DIY. FreeBSD 5.x can and will scale on servers with multiple CPUs. If there's a problem with hardware, get specifications. If you can't due to whatever reason, DIY. If you can't do it, shut up and use something else. The FBSD developers are already busy doing MANY other things to make FBSD a better operating system and environment for multiple applications. Additionally, I think that companies should APPRECIATE the BSD license _MORE_ than the GPL for ``proprietary'' drivers. It allows them to release code should they wish, but to also keep their own development closed. This post ranks all the way up there with the *BSD is Dead trolls to be found on Slashdot. The submitter obviously has no idea what he's talking about. My suggestion: Research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like a fool. My summary: A favorite quote from flynn in #FreeBSD on Freenode: ``Send patches or shut up.'' Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 03:55:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575BC16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:55:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail13.txucom.net (mail13.txucom.net [207.70.175.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B96143D46 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:55:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Received: (qmail 2209 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2004 11:55:38 -0000 Received: from lfkn-adsl-dhcp-net1-197.txucom.net (HELO tardis.buckhorn.net) ([207.70.145.197]) (envelope-sender ) by mail13.txucom.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Mar 2004 11:55:38 -0000 Received: from buckhorn.net (localhost.buckhorn.net [127.0.0.1]) by tardis.buckhorn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2A01B8F00; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:55:48 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <40696044.3090509@buckhorn.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:55:48 -0600 From: Bob Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charon References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:55:39 -0000 Charon wrote: > Anyone care to comment on this at www.zdnet.com.au > > To anonymous FreeBSD user. This is unpleasant. I never post anonymously. It leads others to think I'm "hiding". > Due to its licence, FreeBSD cannot become an enterprise platform > from the vendor's perspective. They all fear heavy proprietisation > and forking of any non-GPL codebase. And this explains the existence of the BSD IP stack in MS, Novel? Not to mention that nearly everyone uses ISC Bind (including MS)... Which is also under a BSD license. IBM and Sun got in bed with Linux because Linux was a buzz word. No harm in that, it's just good business. It still is. But it had nothing to do with the GPL. And remember, Linus holds the copyright to the kernel. It's released under the GPL, but he can stop further release any time he chooses. FreeBSD belongs to an organization, not an individual... > > The only OS that can fly to where the Open Source world wants it to > fly is Linux, FreeBSD is now 5+ years behind in terms of enterprise > readiness. Please keep up with the times and avoid this whole OS > pissing contest thing. Who is the "Open source world?" Who says it want's to fly anywhere? How do you calculate 5+ years? All of this is well written, but it's composed of empty words. > > Remember, we're not talking single-CPU internet servers anymore. > FreeBSD cannot scale to 64 CPUs nor does it have the hardware support > necessary to breach the enterprise space. I guess this means that only SGI is truly ready for the "Enterprise" as they can scale to more processors on a single back plane than anyone else. This is all lovely prose, but meaningless. What is an enterprise? How many servers with more than 4 processors does the "average enterprise" have? How many of those servers will run without nonproprietary OS's? Every OS has strengths and weaknesses. They are tools, not religions. Bob Martin > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 04:47:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2E716A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B088043D2F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UClNGB028063 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:47:23 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UClMeC028062 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:47:22 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:47:22 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:47:47 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 01:42:25PM +0200, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > I'm sorry, but you're totally full of shit. You and I both know this guy is full of shit but I can't come out and say that. Abusive ad hominem is the weakest possible way of dealing with this kind of FUD. Look at whats happening in c.o.l.a. and the bsd section of slashdot and you will see what I mean. Leave AH to the Linux guys - it demonstrates how polarized these groups have become and devalues their arguments and the forums they inhabit. > Additionally, unless you're contributing code, don't say things like > this unless you're willing to take these things up. Want to get SMP > support ``enterprise ready'' (as you term it per buzzwords)? DIY. DIY is not something a business or new user wants to hear. Its fine in forums like this but in the zdnet case the target audience is just going to take this as a sign that FreeBSD as a whole is in some sense incomplete or inferior. > found on Slashdot. The submitter obviously has no idea what he's talking > about. > Research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like a fool. The trick is to convince the zdnet readers of that in a way that doesnt require going into OS details. As far as the audience is concerned hes a tech making a valid point. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 04:56:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A87816A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C0ED43D3F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:56:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 19893 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Mar 2004 12:56:20 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:20 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Charon Message-ID: <20040330125620.GA10658@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Charon , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:56:57 -0000 Charon [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 08:47:22PM +0800]: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 01:42:25PM +0200, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > > > I'm sorry, but you're totally full of shit. > > You and I both know this guy is full of shit but I can't come > out and say that. Abusive ad hominem is the weakest possible > way of dealing with this kind of FUD. Mr. "Charon", I am very sorry to say this, but I think, that you're trolling. About "commercial vendors and FreeBSD", well, there's one small company called "Apple", which does a thingie called "MacOS X". Are you (or is that zdnet troll) one of people, who belive it is Linux based? About "64-CPU boxes"... well, I'd consider buing 4 16-CPU ones and giving them to 4 most active kernel hackers. I strongly belive results would come faster, than you may expect. That's all. > The trick is to convince the zdnet readers of that in a way > that doesnt require going into OS details. As far as the audience > is concerned hes a tech making a valid point. Perhaps that guy has some valid points, only he doesn't say about them specifically; instead he keeps on bashing the whole project. That could also be called "trolling". Feed him, if you want. Take care, -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:06:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2007216A4CF for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628F743D2F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:06:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UD60GB028130 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:06:00 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UD6052028129 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:06:00 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:06:00 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330130600.GA28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <20040330125620.GA10658@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330125620.GA10658@pasternak.w.lub.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:06:24 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:56:20PM +0200, Michal Pasternak wrote: > Mr. "Charon", > > I am very sorry to say this, but I think, that you're trolling. WHOAAAAAA there - I posted a post not authored the post. I am a long time freebsd user (since 2.0.5) and have used what resources I have at my disposal to promote FreeBSD not hinder it. My intention was to get people involved in the advocacy process by highlighting some of the crap thats popped up on ZDNet. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:13:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10F716A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A583E43D2F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:13:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 5160 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Mar 2004 13:13:53 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:13:53 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Charon Message-ID: <20040330131353.GA2495@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Charon , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <20040330125620.GA10658@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <20040330130600.GA28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330130600.GA28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:13:58 -0000 Charon [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 09:06:00PM +0800]: > My intention was to get people involved in the advocacy process > by highlighting some of the crap thats popped up on ZDNet. The correct way to do this would be to try to post some BSD-related article there. Perhaps you could find an interesting topic (only not, for god's sake, "yahoo & ports" or "open is secure, net portable and free just rocks", think of something special, interesting, write it up nicely, I am sure whole fbsd-advocacy@ can be your helping hand & editor in one). Also, I personally think, that as a long-time user of FreeBSD, you should be able to fulfil such task. What do you say? Fueling a flamewar by posting 150th comment in 50th thread, well, it matches the definition of "to get people involved", but is that "advocacy process" really? Take care, -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:32:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA7F16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.euronet.nl (smtp0.euronet.nl [194.134.35.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3137A43D49 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com (zp-c-13e65.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl [81.69.92.101]) by smtp0.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E36D247B8; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:32:22 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <40697611.8040602@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:28:49 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charon References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:32:23 -0000 Charon wrote: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 01:42:25PM +0200, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > >>I'm sorry, but you're totally full of shit. > > You and I both know this guy is full of shit but I can't come > out and say that. Abusive ad hominem is the weakest possible > way of dealing with this kind of FUD. Look at whats happening > in c.o.l.a. and the bsd section of slashdot and you will see > what I mean. Leave AH to the Linux guys - it demonstrates how > polarized these groups have become and devalues their arguments > and the forums they inhabit. No, I prefer to reserve my right to express my opinions in a legal form. I must also argue that this post was not composed of ``FUD'' (as defined by the Slashdot buzzword that people tend to use anywhere they think it looks good), but of misinformation. >>Additionally, unless you're contributing code, don't say things like >>this unless you're willing to take these things up. Want to get SMP >>support ``enterprise ready'' (as you term it per buzzwords)? DIY. > > DIY is not something a business or new user wants to hear. Its > fine in forums like this but in the zdnet case the target > audience is just going to take this as a sign that FreeBSD > as a whole is in some sense incomplete or inferior. I don't care what they want to hear. FreeBSD isn't for the businesses and new users that don't want that. If they can't do it, can't stand to find/fund (with money or resources) developers to do it, or just don't want it that bad, then they shouldn't be using FreeBSD (or any other _*FREE*_ OS). Yes, much emphasis on FREE. You get what you pay for. I'm big on advocacy of FreeBSD, and I will provide personal and professional support for it, but I won't mind if somebody who doesn't have the time/money/energy/know-how to get some serious work done on FreeBSD sits back and does nothing. I certainly find that more pleasant than reading Yet Another Thread on current@ or hackers@ about how ``this or that feature would be useful.'' My counter: Call up Microsoft and state your useful feature. See how fast they implement it. >>found on Slashdot. The submitter obviously has no idea what he's talking >>about. >>Research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like a fool. > > The trick is to convince the zdnet readers of that in a way > that doesnt require going into OS details. As far as the audience > is concerned hes a tech making a valid point. > Interestingly enough, I checked out www.zdnet.com.au and didn't find anything recent on FreeBSD. Could you please inform us as to which thread in which forum you are referring? Assume that you know nothing (or very little) about water. You state, as a fact, that water reflects light at a ``pink'' wavelength. You can state this, be certain, and making a ``valid point'' to others who also have no idea (i.e. said ``audience''). But water reflects at a mostly ``blue'' wavelength, which is why oceans and such get colored that way. Thus, I would suggest that, any audience stupid enough to take advice from a single post by a ``tech'' which is found on a forum on a ``tech site'' isn't smart enough to get past sysinstall in the first place. Then again, I'm just a tech making a valid point. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:39:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E86716A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06BC43D31 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:39:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UDchGB028234 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:38:43 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UDchSs028233 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:38:43 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:38:43 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330133843.GB28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <20040330125620.GA10658@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <20040330130600.GA28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <20040330131353.GA2495@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330131353.GA2495@pasternak.w.lub.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:39:06 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 03:13:53PM +0200, Michal Pasternak wrote: > The correct way to do this would be to try to post some BSD-related article One of the attributes of the zdnet forum is that its not really geared towards this kind of delivery mechanism. ZDNet posts and readers comment. The only kind of advocacy possible is through their commenting system. > there. Perhaps you could find an interesting topic (only not, for god's > sake, "yahoo & ports" or "open is secure, net portable and free just rocks", Yeh I know what you mean. 'Have a nice day' is supposedly an innocuous and friendly term but after the 20th sales assistant has said the same thing it begins to grate. > Fueling a flamewar by posting 150th comment in 50th thread, well, it matches > the definition of "to get people involved", but is that "advocacy process" > really? In this case the thread is small enough and it hasnt degenerated into a flame war. Hopefully it will remain reasoned rhetoric. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:41:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1410D16A4CF for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk (reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk [149.170.192.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DF443D3F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from p.robinson@mmu.ac.uk) Received: from agena.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.168.195]) by reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1B8JUC-0000il-00; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:41:00 +0100 Received: from MMU-HSS-AGENA/SpoolDir by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 30 Mar 04 14:41:00 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by MMU-HSS-AGENA (Mercury 1.48); 30 Mar 04 14:40:56 +0100 Received: from PRGMMITER (149.170.101.200) by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 30 Mar 04 14:40:56 +0100 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "'Charon'" , Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:40:56 +0100 Message-ID: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20040330102525.GA27612@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: RE: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:41:04 -0000 Charon wrote: > Hopefully a pedantic description of 'corporate' or 'professional' > won't be used as a means of negating any argument. Don't count on it. :-) > I assume we are trying to get more people to use FreeBSD for home, > business, and other markets. Well, this is the problem FreeBSD generally has. A lot of people would actually like to see more developers move to FreeBSD and contribute to the project. It then follows that as the "product" improves, we are able to see a rise in the number of users. Pedantic, yes, but I'm becoming less convinced of the need for us to get FreeBSD onto the family PC. I would like to see it on a lot more developer's desks though. > Theres also the factor of belief reinforcement. For example, if I > am looking for alternatives to my current OS I will expect the > competition's website to look and behave in similar ways. Won't you expect the competition's product to be a better alternative to the one you currently use? Do you honestly believe that OS choice is dependent on what the website looks like? If so, how did Mandrake ever take off? > What I am arguing for is a change to the site to make it more like > the competition. In this case RedHat, MicroSoft, IBM, and so on. At > the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no > really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, > converting, and supporting new users. Well, you know what the answer is then, don't you? You can grab the source, talk to the web team, produce a better version. Remember it has to be readable in text browsers, conform to WAI and Internationalisation standards and everyone has to agree by mutual consent it's a better design than the existing one. > ps: when I started hunting for a new OS around 1997/8 my selection > of > FreeBSD was based on the website being prettier than Net or > OpenBSD's > offerings. You know how silly that makes you sound, right? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:51:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC5616A4CF for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.euronet.nl (smtp0.euronet.nl [194.134.35.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A8E43D58 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com (zp-c-13e65.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl [81.69.92.101]) by smtp0.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4769824811; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:51:19 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:47:46 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> In-Reply-To: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:51:21 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > [snip; poor formatting] > > > Well, this is the problem FreeBSD generally has. A lot of people would > actually like to see more developers move to FreeBSD and contribute to > the project. It then follows that as the "product" improves, we are able > to see a rise in the number of users. Pedantic, yes, but I'm becoming > less convinced of the need for us to get FreeBSD onto the family PC. I > would like to see it on a lot more developer's desks though. And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD for the SFU software. > [snip; poor formatting] > > > Won't you expect the competition's product to be a better alternative to > the one you currently use? Do you honestly believe that OS choice is > dependent on what the website looks like? If so, how did Mandrake ever > take off? I have to agree here. > [snip; poor formatting] >> the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no >> really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, >> converting, and supporting new users. > > > Well, you know what the answer is then, don't you? You can grab the > source, talk to the web team, produce a better version. Remember it has > to be readable in text browsers, conform to WAI and Internationalisation > standards and everyone has to agree by mutual consent it's a better > design than the existing one. AMEN. This is a bikeshed that gets discussed every 6 or so months. Search advocacy@, doc@ and any number of other mailing lists for the amount of complaints about the webpage. As per the suggestion always posted that the FreeBSD page is too ``simple,'' my answer remains: http://www.google.com http://www.sun.com Simple, huh? As I stated on your other thread regarding the post on the ZDNet.au site; if you can't put up, shut up. I say that in a coarse manner not to be obtuse, but to discourage you and others from continuing with a bikeshed that nobody seems to care to fix. If you want to make a new site for FreeBSD, make a template, see what you can do, but don't expect it to be used. > [snip] Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:56:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F4016A4E0 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E6A43D41 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:56:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UDtnGB028295 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:55:49 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UDtnS3028294 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:55:49 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:55:49 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330135549.GC28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040330102525.GA27612@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:56:14 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:40:56PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > > FreeBSD was based on the website being prettier than Net or > > OpenBSD's > > offerings. > > You know how silly that makes you sound, right? Absolutely. Thankfully that was a long time ago and I now have a little more info up my sleeve. But then again after being involved in the delivery side of a sysadmin course based on FreeBSD at a uni for three years I can honestly say you probably havn't seen a really silly user ;-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 06:01:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF7116A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D20043D41 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UE1MGB028330 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:22 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UE1Mq1028329 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:22 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:22 +0800 From: Charon To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330140122.GD28088@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40695D21.7080000@sitetronics.com> <20040330124722.GA28005@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <40697611.8040602@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40697611.8040602@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:01:46 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 03:28:49PM +0200, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > Interestingly enough, I checked out www.zdnet.com.au and didn't find > anything recent on FreeBSD. Could you please inform us as to which > thread in which forum you are referring? 'SCO suit dampens Centrelink open source aspirations' http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39118971,00.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 07:22:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7013416A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from whitehall.lin-tech.net (whitehall.lin-tech.net [66.118.35.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBE043D45 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Received: from thor.leetrans.com (leetrans.com [65.116.29.218]) by whitehall.lin-tech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BD7FF2A; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:22:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from buckhorn.net (bob_laptop.leetrans.com [192.168.200.29]) by thor.leetrans.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2311F4F3A0; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:22:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <406990AD.2030001@buckhorn.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:22:21 -0600 From: Bob Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charon References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd and fprot cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:22:54 -0000 http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/talkback.htm?PROCESS=show&ID=20103844&AT=39118971-2000061733t-10000002c Charon wrote: > Anyone care to comment on this at www.zdnet.com.au > > To anonymous FreeBSD user. > > Due to its licence, FreeBSD cannot become an enterprise platform > from the vendor's perspective. They all fear heavy proprietisation > and forking of any non-GPL codebase. > > > The only OS that can fly to where the Open Source world wants it to > fly is Linux, FreeBSD is now 5+ years behind in terms of enterprise > readiness. Please keep up with the times and avoid this whole OS > pissing contest thing. > > Remember, we're not talking single-CPU internet servers anymore. > FreeBSD cannot scale to 64 CPUs nor does it have the hardware support > necessary to breach the enterprise space. > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 07:26:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF6216A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [146.145.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0BA843D1D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:26:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from essenz@beck.quonix.net) Received: from beck.quonix.net (localhost.quonix.net [127.0.0.1]) by beck.quonix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2UFQA6T002779 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (essenz@localhost)i2UFQAuA002776 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:26:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:26:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Von Essen To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> Message-ID: <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:26:16 -0000 This is an interesting point. Alot of big companies use FreeBSD, but under the following conditions: 1. The lead/senior sysadmins are old FreeBSD guru's 2. The systems that have FreeBSD installed are low-profile and can't be easily spotted (audited). 3. Management has loose control over their employees I am working for a large insurance company right now. Because, I love FreeBSD, I have made an attempt to "slip" FreeBSD into the network - on some backend mail servers, intranet web servers, etc.,. However, I still have no chance of getting FreeBSD into, say, our production web server pool. Management is brain-washed and all they know is Solaris, Solaris, Solaris, IBM, IBM, IBM. And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD seem NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a tech, not a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com or redhat.com look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer community look-n-feel. -john On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > Well, this is the problem FreeBSD generally has. A lot of people would > > actually like to see more developers move to FreeBSD and contribute to > > the project. It then follows that as the "product" improves, we are able > > to see a rise in the number of users. Pedantic, yes, but I'm becoming > > less convinced of the need for us to get FreeBSD onto the family PC. I > > would like to see it on a lot more developer's desks though. > > And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies > (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD > for the SFU software. > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > Won't you expect the competition's product to be a better alternative to > > the one you currently use? Do you honestly believe that OS choice is > > dependent on what the website looks like? If so, how did Mandrake ever > > take off? > > I have to agree here. > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > >> the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no > >> really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, > >> converting, and supporting new users. > > > > > > Well, you know what the answer is then, don't you? You can grab the > > source, talk to the web team, produce a better version. Remember it has > > to be readable in text browsers, conform to WAI and Internationalisation > > standards and everyone has to agree by mutual consent it's a better > > design than the existing one. > > AMEN. This is a bikeshed that gets discussed every 6 or so months. > Search advocacy@, doc@ and any number of other mailing lists for the > amount of complaints about the webpage. As per the suggestion always > posted that the FreeBSD page is too ``simple,'' my answer remains: > > http://www.google.com > http://www.sun.com > > Simple, huh? > > As I stated on your other thread regarding the post on the ZDNet.au > site; if you can't put up, shut up. I say that in a coarse manner not to > be obtuse, but to discourage you and others from continuing with a > bikeshed that nobody seems to care to fix. If you want to make a new > site for FreeBSD, make a template, see what you can do, but don't expect > it to be used. > > > [snip] > > Kind regards, > > Devon H. O'Dell > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 07:40:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48B316A4EC for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C74D43D3F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:40:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (acs-24-154-235-164.zoominternet.net [24.154.235.164]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2UFeMjx090857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:40:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:40:44 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: "Devon H. O'Dell" Message-Id: <20040330104044.2e0c982b@localhost> In-Reply-To: <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:40:24 -0000 On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:47:46 +0200 "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: [SNIP] > > As I stated on your other thread regarding the post on the ZDNet.au > site; if you can't put up, shut up. I say that in a coarse manner not to > be obtuse, but to discourage you and others from continuing with a > bikeshed that nobody seems to care to fix. If you want to make a new > site for FreeBSD, make a template, see what you can do, but don't expect > it to be used. This is a good point; give us suggestions or a new site that we can look over. Don't just sit there and state what you think is better and give us vague descriptions as to why; tell us what you would like to see. -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 07:43:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A8116A4F0 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931F743D49 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1B8LOn-0007VT-00; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:43:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:43:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:43:38 -0000 On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, John Von Essen wrote: > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD seem > NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a tech, not > a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com or redhat.com > look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer community > look-n-feel. This thread was already discussed this last year. Someone already volunteered and made a new webpage (for .com). I am sure the archives have the link (although I don't know if the website is still up). Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 07:55:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E673616A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.169.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C03B843D45 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:55:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dereckhaskins@yahoo.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.112.109?) (dereckhaskins@66.150.206.237 with plain) by smtp104.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Mar 2004 15:55:43 -0000 From: dereck To: John Von Essen In-Reply-To: <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 (1.0.3-4) Date: 30 Mar 2004 10:44:35 -0500 Message-Id: <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:55:44 -0000 John, 1. I agree with you that it is hard to get management to accept FreeBSD - perception is poor, though I'm not quite sure why. 2. I disagree that the website is to blame. I think it could use work, but as far as OSS software goes, it is pretty solid. (The search sucks, though :-) .) However, if you can do an alternative one there will be ways to get the people to use it. I for one encourage you to work on an alternative if you have time. 3. You management uses Solaris (!) - count your blessings. It could be FAR FAR worse!!! From my experience with [shall remain unnamed] *NIXES I'd rather deal with Solaris than any others apart from *BSD. But if your management moves to Linux, get another job :-). best, dereck On Tue, 2004-03-30 at 10:26, John Von Essen wrote: > This is an interesting point. Alot of big companies use FreeBSD, but under > the following conditions: > > 1. The lead/senior sysadmins are old FreeBSD guru's > 2. The systems that have FreeBSD installed are low-profile and can't be > easily spotted (audited). > 3. Management has loose control over their employees > > I am working for a large insurance company right now. Because, I love > FreeBSD, I have made an attempt to "slip" FreeBSD into the network - on > some backend mail servers, intranet web servers, etc.,. However, I still > have no chance of getting FreeBSD into, say, our production web server > pool. Management is brain-washed and all they know is Solaris, Solaris, > Solaris, IBM, IBM, IBM. > > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD seem > NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a tech, not > a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com or redhat.com > look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer community > look-n-feel. > > -john > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > > Paul Robinson wrote: > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > > > > Well, this is the problem FreeBSD generally has. A lot of people would > > > actually like to see more developers move to FreeBSD and contribute to > > > the project. It then follows that as the "product" improves, we are able > > > to see a rise in the number of users. Pedantic, yes, but I'm becoming > > > less convinced of the need for us to get FreeBSD onto the family PC. I > > > would like to see it on a lot more developer's desks though. > > > > And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies > > (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD > > for the SFU software. > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > > > > Won't you expect the competition's product to be a better alternative to > > > the one you currently use? Do you honestly believe that OS choice is > > > dependent on what the website looks like? If so, how did Mandrake ever > > > take off? > > > > I have to agree here. > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > >> the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no > > >> really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, > > >> converting, and supporting new users. > > > > > > > > > Well, you know what the answer is then, don't you? You can grab the > > > source, talk to the web team, produce a better version. Remember it has > > > to be readable in text browsers, conform to WAI and Internationalisation > > > standards and everyone has to agree by mutual consent it's a better > > > design than the existing one. > > > > AMEN. This is a bikeshed that gets discussed every 6 or so months. > > Search advocacy@, doc@ and any number of other mailing lists for the > > amount of complaints about the webpage. As per the suggestion always > > posted that the FreeBSD page is too ``simple,'' my answer remains: > > > > http://www.google.com > > http://www.sun.com > > > > Simple, huh? > > > > As I stated on your other thread regarding the post on the ZDNet.au > > site; if you can't put up, shut up. I say that in a coarse manner not to > > be obtuse, but to discourage you and others from continuing with a > > bikeshed that nobody seems to care to fix. If you want to make a new > > site for FreeBSD, make a template, see what you can do, but don't expect > > it to be used. > > > > > [snip] > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Devon H. O'Dell > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 08:03:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F17816A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from snootles.jimz.net (snootles.jimz.net [69.55.224.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B943043D2F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@jimz.net) Received: (qmail 93800 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2004 16:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?141.211.183.93?) (jamesez@141.211.183.93) by snootles.jimz.net with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 30 Mar 2004 16:03:11 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Zajkowski Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:03:09 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on snootles.jimz.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:03:23 -0000 On Mar 30, 2004, at 10:44 AM, dereck wrote: > 1. I agree with you that it is hard to get management to accept FreeBSD > - perception is poor, though I'm not quite sure why. It's probably the 'Free' part of the name, in all seriousness. --Jim -- Jim Zajkowski OpenPGP 0x21135C3 http://www.jimz.net/pgp.asc System Administrator 8A9E 1DDF 944D 83C3 AEAB 8F74 8697 A823 2113 5C53 UM Life Sciences Institute From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 08:08:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD1F16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [146.145.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1DF43D2F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from essenz@beck.quonix.net) Received: from beck.quonix.net (localhost.quonix.net [127.0.0.1]) by beck.quonix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2UG8J3p003073 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (essenz@localhost)i2UG8JHi003070 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:08:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:08:19 -0500 (EST) From: John Von Essen To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040330110035.T3001@beck.quonix.net> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:08:25 -0000 Bam.... You just hit it with the Linux note. If I propose to use FreeBSD on our production web pool, I'll get shot down. However, I can easily convince management to convert to Linux!!! In their minds linux is more mature and stable then this FreeBSD thing that they never heard of. Its sad but true... I dont think a new .com site will change everything, but it would definitely help. As for volunteering, web design aint my thing. But, it might help if the core team opened up the possibility of a new .com site in a more formal manner. I mean, more then just saying, go make a site, show it to us, and then we'll think about it. -john On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, dereck wrote: > John, > 1. I agree with you that it is hard to get management to accept FreeBSD > - perception is poor, though I'm not quite sure why. > > 2. I disagree that the website is to blame. I think it could use work, > but as far as OSS software goes, it is pretty solid. (The search sucks, > though :-) .) However, if you can do an alternative one there will be > ways to get the people to use it. I for one encourage you to work on an > alternative if you have time. > > 3. You management uses Solaris (!) - count your blessings. It could be > FAR FAR worse!!! From my experience with [shall remain unnamed] *NIXES > I'd rather deal with Solaris than any others apart from *BSD. But if > your management moves to Linux, get another job :-). > > best, > dereck > > > > > On Tue, 2004-03-30 at 10:26, John Von Essen wrote: > > This is an interesting point. Alot of big companies use FreeBSD, but under > > the following conditions: > > > > 1. The lead/senior sysadmins are old FreeBSD guru's > > 2. The systems that have FreeBSD installed are low-profile and can't be > > easily spotted (audited). > > 3. Management has loose control over their employees > > > > I am working for a large insurance company right now. Because, I love > > FreeBSD, I have made an attempt to "slip" FreeBSD into the network - on > > some backend mail servers, intranet web servers, etc.,. However, I still > > have no chance of getting FreeBSD into, say, our production web server > > pool. Management is brain-washed and all they know is Solaris, Solaris, > > Solaris, IBM, IBM, IBM. > > > > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD seem > > NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a tech, not > > a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com or redhat.com > > look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer community > > look-n-feel. > > > > -john > > > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > > > > Paul Robinson wrote: > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is the problem FreeBSD generally has. A lot of people would > > > > actually like to see more developers move to FreeBSD and contribute to > > > > the project. It then follows that as the "product" improves, we are able > > > > to see a rise in the number of users. Pedantic, yes, but I'm becoming > > > > less convinced of the need for us to get FreeBSD onto the family PC. I > > > > would like to see it on a lot more developer's desks though. > > > > > > And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies > > > (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD > > > for the SFU software. > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > > > > > > > Won't you expect the competition's product to be a better alternative to > > > > the one you currently use? Do you honestly believe that OS choice is > > > > dependent on what the website looks like? If so, how did Mandrake ever > > > > take off? > > > > > > I have to agree here. > > > > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > >> the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no > > > >> really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, > > > >> converting, and supporting new users. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, you know what the answer is then, don't you? You can grab the > > > > source, talk to the web team, produce a better version. Remember it has > > > > to be readable in text browsers, conform to WAI and Internationalisation > > > > standards and everyone has to agree by mutual consent it's a better > > > > design than the existing one. > > > > > > AMEN. This is a bikeshed that gets discussed every 6 or so months. > > > Search advocacy@, doc@ and any number of other mailing lists for the > > > amount of complaints about the webpage. As per the suggestion always > > > posted that the FreeBSD page is too ``simple,'' my answer remains: > > > > > > http://www.google.com > > > http://www.sun.com > > > > > > Simple, huh? > > > > > > As I stated on your other thread regarding the post on the ZDNet.au > > > site; if you can't put up, shut up. I say that in a coarse manner not to > > > be obtuse, but to discourage you and others from continuing with a > > > bikeshed that nobody seems to care to fix. If you want to make a new > > > site for FreeBSD, make a template, see what you can do, but don't expect > > > it to be used. > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Devon H. O'Dell > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 08:15:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFC816A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte244.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.244.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF42B43D31 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from question+advocacy@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 152BD45038; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:12:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:12:08 -0800 From: Linh Pham To: "Devon H. O'Dell" Message-ID: <20040330161208.GB51160@q.internal.closedsrc.org> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5I6of5zJg18YgZEa" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> Organization: closedsrc.org Mail-Copies-To: poster X-PGP-Key: http://closedsrc.org/~question/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:15:10 -0000 --5I6of5zJg18YgZEa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004-03-30 15:47 +0200, "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: # And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies= =20 # (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD=20 # for the SFU software. IIRC - Since Microsoft purchased Interix, SFU is using a more Linux-like userland than FreeBSD. I don't know if there are any other parts of the SFU, like the NFS daemon and/or client, that are based on FreeBSD or not. --=20 Linh Pham question+advocacy@closedsrc.org Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org Apprentice Manager Editor and Writer http://www.daemonnews.org C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung | There is always one more bug. --5I6of5zJg18YgZEa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAaZxYwhofDeWkDMIRAu8gAJ9HaR3VLQn6T8ewvg0/MNOFHPWrsgCeJOc8 kGCRn3nBa2gm0YWhC2TaeYo= =jJVh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5I6of5zJg18YgZEa-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 08:40:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23AF16A4D0 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAA443D41 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B8MI9-000GEw-0Z for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:40:45 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:35:26 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Kevin Golding References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:40:47 -0000 In article , Jim Zajkowski writes > >On Mar 30, 2004, at 10:44 AM, dereck wrote: > >> 1. I agree with you that it is hard to get management to accept FreeBSD >> - perception is poor, though I'm not quite sure why. > >It's probably the 'Free' part of the name, in all seriousness. Actually that logic extends to a problem which seems to hit *BSD in general - OpenBSD.org is the only site which doesn't have "project" emblazoned across the top of my browser. Granted, the management types most likely to be put off by something trivial like that usually feel their time is too valuable to look at a website; preferring instead a 15 page document justifying everything and anything. Kevin From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 08:43:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC2C16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4006643D2D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 67446 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Mar 2004 16:43:50 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:43:50 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Kevin Golding Message-ID: <20040330164350.GA40055@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Kevin Golding , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:43:53 -0000 Kevin Golding [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:35:26PM +0100]: > Actually that logic extends to a problem which seems to hit *BSD in > general - OpenBSD.org is the only site which doesn't have "project" > emblazoned across the top of my browser. Hmm, so that's it? Remove "project" from and <h?> and we're all saved? Brillant! Seriously, gentlemen, as 10 other people already pointed out, count me as 11th. Such discussions here repeat from time to time, and except the discussions itself I don't remember if I ever seen someone with a *clue* (eg. new site project + development roadmap). -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 08:49:48 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B4E16A4CF for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE87E43D1F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:49:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1065540D8; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:49:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org> To: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:49:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20040330164350.GA40055@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <KmpG67BOHaaAFwo2@caomhin.demon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:49:48 -0000 On 30 Mar 2004 at 18:43, Michal Pasternak wrote: > Kevin Golding [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:35:26PM +0100]: > > Actually that logic extends to a problem which seems to hit *BSD in > > general - OpenBSD.org is the only site which doesn't have "project" > > emblazoned across the top of my browser. > > Hmm, so that's it? Remove "project" from <title> and <h?> and we're all > saved? Brillant! > > Seriously, gentlemen, as 10 other people already pointed out, count me as > 11th. Such discussions here repeat from time to time, and except the > discussions itself I don't remember if I ever seen someone with a *clue* > (eg. new site project + development roadmap). Following upon the above: It was mentioned in a previous post: someone wanted official sanction by core (or something to that effect). My response to that: don't wait for it. Just do it. FreshPorts, FreeBSD Diary, and BSDCan[1] would not exist if official sanction were needed. If *you* think it's a good idea, do it, regardless of what other thinks. There are far more people willing to give advice than are willing to do the work. Just do it. [1] - OK, so BSDCan is yet to happen, but it will happen. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 09:02:27 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0B116A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [146.145.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9635343D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from essenz@beck.quonix.net) Received: from beck.quonix.net (localhost.quonix.net [127.0.0.1]) by beck.quonix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2UH2KAU003549 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (essenz@localhost)i2UH2Kph003546 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:02:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:02:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> Message-ID: <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> References: <KmpG67BOHaaAFwo2@caomhin.demon.co.uk> <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:02:27 -0000 I believe I was the one that requested a core sanction. The reason is I remember when this thread came up before... It's difficult to go out and start doing something and dedicate alot of time when you are not absolutely sure that it will be accepted. A core sanction would also help in other areas... What is the decided platform? Perl, PHP, MySQL, Postgresql. What happens if I go out and do it in mod_perl and mysql, and then a core member says, "It should be done in php like site xyz". -John On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Dan Langille wrote: > On 30 Mar 2004 at 18:43, Michal Pasternak wrote: > > > Kevin Golding [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:35:26PM +0100]: > > > Actually that logic extends to a problem which seems to hit *BSD in > > > general - OpenBSD.org is the only site which doesn't have "project" > > > emblazoned across the top of my browser. > > > > Hmm, so that's it? Remove "project" from <title> and <h?> and we're all > > saved? Brillant! > > > > Seriously, gentlemen, as 10 other people already pointed out, count me as > > 11th. Such discussions here repeat from time to time, and except the > > discussions itself I don't remember if I ever seen someone with a *clue* > > (eg. new site project + development roadmap). > > Following upon the above: > > It was mentioned in a previous post: someone wanted official sanction > by core (or something to that effect). My response to that: don't > wait for it. Just do it. > > FreshPorts, FreeBSD Diary, and BSDCan[1] would not exist if official > sanction were needed. If *you* think it's a good idea, do it, > regardless of what other thinks. > > There are far more people willing to give advice than are willing to > do the work. Just do it. > > [1] - OK, so BSDCan is yet to happen, but it will happen. > > -- > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 09:23:49 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF3B16A4CF for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0615343D46 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from COPPERMAWXP (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFD96DB2A for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Charles Oppermann" <charles@coppersoftware.com> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:35 -0800 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20040330164350.GA40055@pasternak.w.lub.pl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 Thread-Index: AcQWdlrjGCsAcBUtToS+12ChSlZuUwAA/QqA Message-Id: <20040330172339.BBFD96DB2A@smtp3.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:23:49 -0000 >> Hmm, so that's it? Remove "project" from <title> and <h?> and we're all saved? Brillant! Seriously, gentlemen, as 10 other people already pointed out, count me as 11th. Such discussions here repeat from time to time, and except the discussions itself I don't remember if I ever seen someone with a *clue* (eg. new site project + development roadmap). << I see the discussion as a way of building consensus. If the idea was ridiculed and no one contributed their views, then who would bother putting in the time or effort? The project would be doomed from the start. Charles Oppermann, charles@coppersoftware.com, http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 09:23:49 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DD916A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4ED243D3F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from COPPERMAWXP (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00826DD22 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Charles Oppermann" <charles@coppersoftware.com> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:35 -0800 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20040330102525.GA27612@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 Thread-Index: AcQWQZYXgNWayri6RBOT0+MDnCsEGAANEQ9A Message-Id: <20040330172347.B00826DD22@smtp3.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:23:50 -0000 This is a good discussion. Actually, I think the freebsd.org web site has an attractive look to it currently. The problem, IMHO, is that traditionally, UNIX folks place more emphasis on textual content and less on what they consider "flashy" graphics. UNIX has never been a "pretty to look at" OS. Commercial web sites are created by marketers, while products are created by engineers. Marketers know that eye-catching design and content editing will help the reader form a positive opinion of what's being presented. Engineers tend to think that the content is enough and doesn't need embellishing. Since FreeBSD is driven by developers and not marketers, there will be a natural tendency towards less visual appeal. Plus, as a volunteer project, the priority is on content first, presentation second. I like the current web site. I'd be interested in an example of how it could be made better. I agree entirely with the premises. I spent my career at Microsoft at a developer and manager. For web-based collaboration, they use SharePoint, which looks and feels a lot like the "My MSN" tools at http://my.msn.com. Obviously, Microsoft uses IIS with ASP and ASP.NET. Most intranet pages are edited with FrontPage. They look good and work well. Now I'm consulting at Cisco, and the department I'm in uses a Wiki variation called TWiki for group collaboration. It's mostly text, and while very customizable, it's not direct manipulation. For example, I can choose all sorts of colors for my TWiki page, if I put in the correct color codes. In SharePoint, colors are presented in color. Functionality-wise, both are the same. Text-only or mostly text-based pages do tend to seem less professional than others that are presented with a quality style. Even given the same textual content, quality presentation will tip the scales in favor of the "flashy" approach. Charles Oppermann, charles@coppersoftware.com, http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 09:23:50 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9E816A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352C443D3F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from COPPERMAWXP (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8206DB2A for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Charles Oppermann" <charles@coppersoftware.com> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:23:35 -0800 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 Thread-Index: AcQWQ8qL7keJ39QbSAqkwUFQZqXItwALvu4Q Message-Id: <20040330172349.6B8206DB2A@smtp3.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:23:50 -0000 >> Anyone care to comment on this at www.zdnet.com.au To anonymous FreeBSD user. Due to its licence, FreeBSD cannot become an enterprise platform from the vendor's perspective. They all fear heavy proprietisation and forking of any non-GPL codebase. << The argument could be turned around and said that some companies fear GPL-based software due to concerns over intellectual property rights. Plus, anyone who cannot spell license shouldn't be commenting about it. <grin> Just kidding. >> The only OS that can fly to where the Open Source world wants it to fly is Linux, FreeBSD is now 5+ years behind in terms of enterprise readiness. Please keep up with the times and avoid this whole OS pissing contest thing. << ...he said while whizzing away at the urinal. I usually ignore anything written in the reader forums. They are at the same quality level as callers to talk radio shows. That's not to said some points are valid and some posters/callers are credible; most aren't however. Let's face it; Ziff-Davis isn't exactly the place for objective coverage. They shrill for Linux at every opportunity. Just reading the article about SCO says it all. Never does the author even consider that SCO's claims might be valid. They may, they may not be, but I don't know and sure as heck some ZD writer doesn't know. Charles Oppermann http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ PS: This is my first posting to the FreeBSD mailing lists. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 09:30:30 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760D816A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 2advanced.com (2advanced.com [12.106.77.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E4B43D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:30:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jjirsa@hmc.edu) Received: from JJirsa (cartman.2advanced.net [12.106.77.2]) by 2advanced.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2UHUPB4014556 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:30:25 -0800 Message-Id: <200403301730.i2UHUPB4014556@2advanced.com> From: "Jeff Jirsa (HMC)" <jjirsa@hmc.edu> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:30:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcQWePTAWa9Rv7xSSz+AICkPipN+ZgAAs84w Subject: RE: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:30:30 -0000 > I believe I was the one that requested a core sanction. The reason is I > remember when this thread came up before... It's difficult to go out and > start doing something and dedicate alot of time when you are not > absolutely sure that it will be accepted. > > A core sanction would also help in other areas... What is the decided > platform? Perl, PHP, MySQL, Postgresql. > > What happens if I go out and do it in mod_perl and mysql, and then a core > member says, "It should be done in php like site xyz". > If core is interested in a redesign, can someone with a few spare minutes shoot me an email off-list? - Jeff Jirsa -- Jeff Jirsa jjirsa@2advanced.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 09:32:48 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E1316A4CF for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D548B43D48 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:32:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i2UHWNGB028941 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:32:23 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i2UHWNnC028940 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:32:23 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:32:23 +0800 From: Charon <charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040330173223.GA28898@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> <406990AD.2030001@buckhorn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <406990AD.2030001@buckhorn.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:32:48 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 09:22:21AM -0600, Bob Martin wrote: > [ freebsd advocacy ] ZDNets stats (2002 survey) Our Audience 3.2 Million page views per month 459,000 unique users 600,000 email newsletters delivered each month to over 100,000 subscribers ZDNet users buy technology for work and home 82% of users are involved in technology purchasing decisions at work 95% of users plan to purchase tech products for personal use in the next 12 months Position at work 65% of users hold management titles 18% hold senior management titles (CEO, CFO, CIO, CTO, VP, SVP, Pres.) General Demographics Age: 89% aged between 18 and 54 years Gender: 81% Male, 19% Female Education: 44% Tertiary, 28% Post Graduate Annual Income: 55% earn over $50,000 a year And its the third entry on the first page returned by a search for 'centrelink' and 'linux' on google. The first two entries are links to stories on linuxtoday.com which directly link zdnet. I think local tech sections of the Australian (newspaper) may contain references to the centrelink story aswell (but I have to check that further). :-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 10:10:36 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB3816A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep20-int.chello.nl (amsfep12-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B6943D48 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:10:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([62.163.150.239]) by amsfep20-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with ESMTP id <20040330181034.XLTW7031.amsfep20-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:10:34 +0200 Message-ID: <4069B744.10005@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:07:00 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linh Pham <question+advocacy@closedsrc.org> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330161208.GB51160@q.internal.closedsrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20040330161208.GB51160@q.internal.closedsrc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:10:36 -0000 Linh Pham wrote: > On 2004-03-30 15:47 +0200, "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> wrote: > > # And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies > # (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD > # for the SFU software. > > IIRC - Since Microsoft purchased Interix, SFU is using a more Linux-like > userland than FreeBSD. I don't know if there are any other parts of the > SFU, like the NFS daemon and/or client, that are based on FreeBSD or > not. > There is a member of #FreeBSD on the Freenode IRC server who works at Microsoft on SFU and uses FreeBSD regularly for his work porting code. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 10:11:52 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217B316A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A57F343D54 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:11:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 4862 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Mar 2004 18:11:49 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:11:49 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> To: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Message-ID: <20040330181149.GA74596@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <KmpG67BOHaaAFwo2@caomhin.demon.co.uk> <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:11:52 -0000 John Von Essen [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 12:02:20PM -0500]: > I believe I was the one that requested a core sanction. The reason is I > remember when this thread came up before... It's difficult to go out and > start doing something and dedicate alot of time when you are not > absolutely sure that it will be accepted. On the other hand, how do they have to sanacize something, that they didn't see? > A core sanction would also help in other areas... What is the decided > platform? Perl, PHP, MySQL, Postgresql. > > What happens if I go out and do it in mod_perl and mysql, and then a core > member says, "It should be done in php like site xyz". Well, that's a good question. First, philosophy. Sorry, if that's obvious, but: * structure of the site: what do we want to have, what we will be introducing in the future. Very important, start from creating it. Discuss it. Many times. * clean, easy to maintain code - that lets new people contribute to such project easier * separate data from page design/look. Always. Learn about MVC pattern, if you didn't do that already. * remember about machine, that serves the content. Not everything has to be a dynamic PHP script, you can save rendered HTML pages to save CPU time, perhaps in many areas of the site. * translations! Every letter of text on the page (images included) should be translateable to other languages. Think about this, while writing a web engine. * 2-clicks rule, cross-browser compatibility, coding - utf, of course, similar webinterface stuff * security! slashdot-like trolls on forums, bruteforce webform password crackers... remember about this. Tools, tools, tools. * choose by features and possibilities, that the tool gives you, not by popularity. "More people use PHP & MySQL, so it's better" sounds just like "More people use Windows XP, than FreeBSD, so Windows's better". * choose by features, not by speed. According to extreme programming rules, you should optimize only the bottleneck; how can you predict the bottleneck if you have no project? Only those tools I know a bit, sorry for not providing more information: * PHP: very popular among fresh webdevelopers, sometimes very criticized by the senior ones, especially by people, who like real object-oriented languages. Objects in PHP 5 are getting much better, perhaps PHP 6 or PHP 7 will be really good in this area. DOM XML module, except ugly syntax, seems to be pretty useable at parsing XML forms. It is quite easy to implement basic Adapter/Interface pattern in PHP; on the other hand, language syntax has still much TBD. Popular. Popularity should *not* be the _only_ factor considered. * Python: there are a few interesting Python projects to do webdevelopment, which intensivley utilize Python's syntax & object-oriented features; they are definetley worth giving them a look, among others: * Zope and Plone. Enough said - very complete, very sophisticated, still easy to use. * Twisted Python together with Newov (from divmod.org) - that's a quite interesting webdevelopment framework, if you ask me. Strongly suggested, if you don't plan to use it, at least have a look at the way problems are solved there. And, you can turn your simple test webserver into load-balancing spread cluster with single line of code. Database? * PostgreSQL is pretty good. In fact, it is very advanced database. MySQL could be an option, if you don't need that much features. Speed of database should *not* be the _only_ factor considered. Pros? Data can be shared between no-matter-what-language-you-write-it-in software. I have modified some sites, that used MySQL, and suffered because of lack of some features, that were already present in PostgreSQL. I don't know, how this two DBMS compare to each other at the time of this writing, but personally I'd choose PostgreSQL, unless someone will proove me the existence of the same features in MySQL server. * Zope uses ZODB, object oriented database engine. ZODB is definetley worth having a look; together with IndexedCatalog it can be quite fast. Pros? Many. Cons? Python-only, AFAIK. Just my $.25. Starting - as an open project - "the new corporate FreeBSD site" - requires much more discussion. Not to mention your own (yes, yours) time and resources. And, the discussion, if the page should be red, green or black should come after 40 - 75% of the code is done, not earlier. -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 10:46:47 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A039D16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep20-int.chello.nl (amsfep12-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C761643D54 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([62.163.150.239]) by amsfep20-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with ESMTP id <20040330184646.YPTY7031.amsfep20-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:46:46 +0200 Message-ID: <4069BFC1.5020903@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:43:13 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeff Jirsa (HMC)" <jjirsa@hmc.edu> References: <200403301730.i2UHUPB4014556@2advanced.com> In-Reply-To: <200403301730.i2UHUPB4014556@2advanced.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:46:47 -0000 Jeff Jirsa (HMC) wrote: > >>I believe I was the one that requested a core sanction. The reason is I >>remember when this thread came up before... It's difficult to go out and >>start doing something and dedicate alot of time when you are not >>absolutely sure that it will be accepted. >> >>A core sanction would also help in other areas... What is the decided >>platform? Perl, PHP, MySQL, Postgresql. >> >>What happens if I go out and do it in mod_perl and mysql, and then a core >>member says, "It should be done in php like site xyz". >> > > > If core is interested in a redesign, can someone with a few spare minutes > shoot me an email off-list? > > - Jeff Jirsa > Honestly, I think that a ``redesign'' is never happening. The reason nobody attempts it is because everybody knows that the Foundation will never saction it. The current FreeBSD.org site is nice, easy to navigate, has good information, etc. Here is my proposal: _IF_ people are genuinely interested in doing this, I will set up a Wiki or some other form of software in which discussions can take place. We can discuss a platform for development, data storage, content management, etc. We will probably need the following (in no particular order): * Project manager. I'm sick of seeing this bikeshed and I'm happy to manage the development of this project, so I will volunteer myself to spend whatever time necessary to manage this project, provided the other ``requirements'' are fulfilled. * People committed to spend several months merging content from freebsd.org to the ``sister site''. * People willing to develop or set up, maintain and modify a CMS such as Plone, EZ Publish, or any other corporate-friendly CMS. This will be an ongoing job. * People willing to create and maintain templates for said CMS. * People willing to manage content/news/etc. These people will need to be in close contact or part of the FreeBSD documentation and security projects and will need to be able to update data on the page and post security vulnerabilities. * Corporate content managers. You will need to be willing to spend enough time daily/weekly to develop and maintain corporate content. I imagine stories will focus on companies using FreeBSD for their products or to achieve their work (interviews, reviews, etc.) * Graphic designers able to come up with corporate logos and who are able to work with the corporate team to create logos and graphics for the site and for stories. * Web designers -- this may fall into the category of the template administrator as well. I'm probably underestimating the necessities at the moment, but as you can see, finding such a team to work _for free_ is no easy task. That said, if you can contribute (and only if you CAN contribute and WILL HAVE THE TIME and WILL COMMIT to the project NO DOUBTS, NQA, KTHX, etc.) Did I mention that if you have a doubt about your ability to commit, don't? Okay, that said: if you're interested, willing, and able: contact me off-list. We will get our shit together and do the following: * Assign tasks * Make a roadmap * Begin with the site * Develop a write-up and pitch this to the FreeBSD Foundation and core@ for their opinions. We will be aiming to create a page that the Foundation and core@ will officially endorse as a corporate page. I think one of the downfalls with this list is that people talk about it and want to talk to the Foundation and core@ about it but: a) never do, b) haven't put their money where their mouth is, or, c) never actually do anything after discussions * If this is good enough, we will continue assigning tasks, planning, mapping, developing and co-working with members of the FreeBSD group. So. If you're interested, contact me. If you know people who can help, get them in on it to. This is a non-paying project. YOU ARE VOLUNTEERING YOUR TIME. Again: if you can't put up, shut up. I'm tired of seeing this thread repeated. So let us all do something about it or let us PLEASE let it R.I.P. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 10:52:40 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDDF316A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4F843D48 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:52:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844C640F4; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:52:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org> To: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:52:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40697BA6.31624.7B2EE1A0@localhost> Priority: normal References: <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> In-reply-to: <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:52:41 -0000 On 30 Mar 2004 at 12:02, John Von Essen wrote: > I believe I was the one that requested a core sanction. The reason is I > remember when this thread came up before... It's difficult to go out and > start doing something and dedicate alot of time when you are not > absolutely sure that it will be accepted. > > A core sanction would also help in other areas... What is the decided > platform? Perl, PHP, MySQL, Postgresql. > > What happens if I go out and do it in mod_perl and mysql, and then a core > member says, "It should be done in php like site xyz". I think you are jumping the gun. You don't go away and come back with a completed solution. Propose something. And do not prospose using technology. Propose with mockup and features. Here's what it'll look like. Here is how things are updated. Here is how translations work. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:09:31 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E9716A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29E943D48 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040330190930.PHTF10539.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:09:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:06:43 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox <kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au Message-Id: <20040330110643.6626617e@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <200403300555.i2U5tGrM026994@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:09:31 -0000 On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:55:16 +0800 (WST) Charon <charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> wrote: > What are the obstacles along the way to adopting a more > corporate/professional appeal in the layout of the freebsd.org > website? Hehe, search the archives and you will find out this has come up more than once, generally with the idea being suggest that freebsd.org needs to be converted over to something spastic and hard to look at or whatever... ^_^ ...and like all ways the many dif things are going to be pointed out... and then usually some one will suggest or point out the best way to probally do this would to be have a two websites, like Sendmail does. I have to agree with that approach, it allows the nice interface for those that like the simplicity of the current one, while allowing for a glitzy or whatever interface to be put into place for ppl that go for that sort of thing. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:11:52 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C19A16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F013543D39 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1377D1FE28; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:11:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 96021-01-39; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:11:50 -0600 (CST) Received: by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 070901FE1F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:11:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051BA1A928; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:11:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:11:49 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon <cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us> To: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> In-Reply-To: <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> Message-ID: <20040330122431.P94083@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wolves.k12.mo.us cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:11:52 -0000 On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, John Von Essen wrote: > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD > seem NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a > tech, not a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a > suse.com or redhat.com look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the > developer community look-n-feel. Having two different web sites is unnecessary work. It is entirely possible to have a tech-friendly site that looks good enough to visually impress the CEO/CTO/etc. What techie people such as myself care about is the availability of and how easy it is to find the technical information we've come to the site looking for: documentation, FAQs, Knowledge Base, software downloads/patches, and so on... The FreeBSD site already does this fairly well except for the lack of a decent search engine. I will sometimes judge a product based on the quality of the technical information available for it on the official website. If the web site is devoid of any useful information, no matter how good it looks I'm likely to brush it off and go look for something else. If I can find what I want _and_ the site looks spiffy at the same time, that's extra brownie points and makes the product that much more impressive in my eyes. Take m0n0wall (http://m0n0.ch/wall) for example. I was impressed when I saw the non-typical (for open source), clean and professional web page that told me everything I wanted to know about what it is, what it does, what they've been doing lately, etc., and then blown away by the product itself. It's no SuSE or RedHat site, but its good in its own way. That's a win-win scenario in my book. :-) That said, the FreeBSD website really isn't that bad. It could stand a facelift now and then to keep things buzzing, but don't sacrifice its usability. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us FreeBSD: The fastest, most open, and most stable OS on the planet - Available for IA32, IA64, AMD64, PC98, Alpha, and UltraSPARC architectures - PowerPC, ARM, MIPS, and S/390 under development - http://www.freebsd.org Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:12:35 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CF916A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep16-int.chello.nl (amsfep16-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0D343D39 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:12:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([62.163.150.239]) by amsfep16-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20040330191232.VSGK26437.amsfep16-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:12:32 +0200 Message-ID: <4069C5C1.5020407@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:08:49 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <KmpG67BOHaaAFwo2@caomhin.demon.co.uk> <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> <20040330181149.GA74596@pasternak.w.lub.pl> In-Reply-To: <20040330181149.GA74596@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:12:35 -0000 Michal Pasternak wrote: > John Von Essen [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 12:02:20PM -0500]: > >>I believe I was the one that requested a core sanction. The reason is I >>remember when this thread came up before... It's difficult to go out and >>start doing something and dedicate alot of time when you are not >>absolutely sure that it will be accepted. > > > On the other hand, how do they have to sanacize something, that they didn't > see? This is a very good point. See my last email. > >>A core sanction would also help in other areas... What is the decided >>platform? Perl, PHP, MySQL, Postgresql. >> >>What happens if I go out and do it in mod_perl and mysql, and then a core >>member says, "It should be done in php like site xyz". > > > Well, that's a good question. > > First, philosophy. Sorry, if that's obvious, but: > > * structure of the site: what do we want to have, what we will be introducing > in the future. Very important, start from creating it. Discuss it. Many > times. And then discuss it again. > * clean, easy to maintain code - that lets new people contribute to such > project easier Indeed. Unfortunately, here is where you start to get into popularity. More people will be able to contribute (code-wise) to a PHP-based project than a, say, Ruby-based project. > * separate data from page design/look. Always. Learn about MVC pattern, if > you didn't do that already. This can not be stressed enough. Content can NOT rely on layout or vice versa. If one page has no content in some area _it has to be able to do without_. Extensibility is a necessity. > * remember about machine, that serves the content. Not everything has to > be a dynamic PHP script, you can save rendered HTML pages to save CPU > time, perhaps in many areas of the site. Indeed. Caching is used in many platforms (I know that PHP and Java use these, for instance). > * translations! Every letter of text on the page (images included) should > be translateable to other languages. Think about this, while writing > a web engine. Native-English speakers tend to forget about this, but there's a whole world out there with a tech market. We can't just advertise to the US, UK, Canada, Australia and other (semi-)majority English-speaking countries. > * 2-clicks rule, cross-browser compatibility, coding - utf, of course, > similar webinterface stuff For those not familiar, all vital content should be within 2 clicks. XHTML compliancy? What version? > * security! slashdot-like trolls on forums, bruteforce webform password > crackers... remember about this. Should the site even have forums? I personally think they make a ``corporate'' site look tacky. ZDNet, CNN, and news sites, for instance, let their viewers post feedback, but that's very limited on sites belonging to companies such as IBM, Sun, Intel, and Microsoft. > Tools, tools, tools. > > * choose by features and possibilities, that the tool gives you, not by > popularity. "More people use PHP & MySQL, so it's better" sounds just like > "More people use Windows XP, than FreeBSD, so Windows's better". Agreed. > * choose by features, not by speed. According to extreme programming rules, > you should optimize only the bottleneck; how can you predict the bottleneck > if you have no project? One other thing I would add to this list is distribution. FreeBSD.org has content that is mirrored across the globe via CVS or CVSup. How do you distribute the content of this site? > Only those tools I know a bit, sorry for not providing more information: > > * PHP: very popular among fresh webdevelopers, sometimes very criticized by > the senior ones, especially by people, who like real object-oriented > languages. Objects in PHP 5 are getting much better, perhaps PHP 6 or PHP > 7 will be really good in this area. DOM XML module, except ugly syntax, > seems to be pretty useable at parsing XML forms. It is quite easy to > implement basic Adapter/Interface pattern in PHP; on the other hand, > language syntax has still much TBD. Popular. Popularity should *not* > be the _only_ factor considered. PHP 5's objects are fashionable, though I'd still argue that OO development isn't necessary for web development. WRT the syntax: it's short, sweet, easy to pick up, and offers the largest developer base, statistically. > * Python: there are a few interesting Python projects to do webdevelopment, > which intensivley utilize Python's syntax & object-oriented features; they > are definetley worth giving them a look, among others: > > * Zope and Plone. Enough said - very complete, very sophisticated, > still easy to use. > > * Twisted Python together with Newov (from divmod.org) - that's a quite > interesting webdevelopment framework, if you ask me. Strongly > suggested, if you don't plan to use it, at least have a look at > the way problems are solved there. And, you can turn your simple > test webserver into load-balancing spread cluster with single > line of code. I know very little about Python, but there are other languages to consider. Namely: * C * Perl * Ruby * Combination of any of the above > Database? > > * PostgreSQL is pretty good. In fact, it is very advanced database. MySQL > could be an option, if you don't need that much features. Speed of > database should *not* be the _only_ factor considered. Pros? Data can > be shared between no-matter-what-language-you-write-it-in software. > I have modified some sites, that used MySQL, and suffered because of lack of > some features, that were already present in PostgreSQL. I don't know, > how this two DBMS compare to each other at the time of this writing, > but personally I'd choose PostgreSQL, unless someone will proove me > the existence of the same features in MySQL server. Backplane is a database that could be considered for storage, due to its native distribution/scalability focus. I don't know what, if any, languages support it/have hooks for it. If its in the interests of the project, I'm sure I could write hooks for it for whatever language(s) we decided to go for. One thing to consider is definitely distribution. There's no way we're going to manage a FreeBSD.com on 1 server. I can host some content, but mirrors will be necessary. > * Zope uses ZODB, object oriented database engine. ZODB is definetley > worth having a look; together with IndexedCatalog it can be quite > fast. Pros? Many. Cons? Python-only, AFAIK. There have been some ridiculous security vulnerabilities in Zope as of late. (From what I've heard. Don't jump on me, I'm repeating what's been told to me.) I don't know if ZODB can be clustered/distributed, which is my personal main concern with a database. > Just my $.25. Well, I've just turned it to $0.50. > Starting - as an open project - "the new corporate FreeBSD site" - requires > much more discussion. Not to mention your own (yes, yours) time and > resources. And, the discussion, if the page should be red, green or black > should come after 40 - 75% of the code is done, not earlier. Let me add a bit of stress on the ``your own time'' part. This begs the question though: develop your own CMS or use/expand an existing system. These are all things that need to be discussed. BTW, folks, these are all things that are discussed when corporations make webpages as well. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:19:19 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6004616A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:19:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5114B43D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:4275) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B8OlF-0001JL-4J; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:18:57 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <GFNZANKL>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:09:24 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id HX2WP4P8; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:08:06 -0800 From: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:16:51 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> In-Reply-To: <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B8OlF-0001JL-4J*5jmkFAVjbfo* cc: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:19:19 -0000 On Tuesday 30 March 2004 07:26 am, John Von Essen wrote: > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD > seem NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a > tech, not a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com > or redhat.com look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer > community look-n-feel. I hate to say this, but FreeBSD is definitely NON-enterprise. That's because we are not an enterprise! We are a non-commercial community based operating system. There is no way we could have a Redhat or SuSE style site, because we don't sell anything or provide paid support. We don't have "Business Customers", commercial "solutions", shrink wrapped boxes, offer certification, funds for professionally created graphics, etc. Some of this could be provided by commercial vendors of FreeBSD (Daemonnews, FreeBSD Mall), but not by FreeBSD itself. Actually, now that I look at it, the FreeBSD site follows the same basic layout as the KDE site. Last I heard KDE was turning heads in the enterprise... David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:21:55 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6249116A4CF for <advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (romulus-net.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0144943D1D for <advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from mailtest.sd73.bc.ca (mailtest.sd73.bc.ca [10.10.10.14]) i2UJBNDP003740 for <advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:11:23 -0800 Received: from 24.71.128.221 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fcash) by mailtest.sd73.bc.ca with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2101.24.71.128.221.1080674515.squirrel@mailtest.sd73.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: <20040330161208.GB51160@q.internal.closedsrc.org> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local><40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330161208.GB51160@q.internal.closedsrc.org> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Freddie Cash" <fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> To: advocacy@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:21:55 -0000 > On 2004-03-30 15:47 +0200, "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> > wrote: > # And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) > # companies (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS > # uses FreeBSD for the SFU software. Nope. MS bought Interix, which uses OpenBSD 3.0 as the base. > IIRC - Since Microsoft purchased Interix, SFU is using a more > Linux-like > userland than FreeBSD. I don't know if there are any other parts of > the > SFU, like the NFS daemon and/or client, that are based on FreeBSD or > not. Nope. See above. For more info, check http://www.deadly.org for the discussion regarding the discovery of OpenBSD in Interix. -- Freddie Cash fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:22:44 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104C016A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep14-int.chello.nl (amsfep14-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319CB43D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([62.163.150.239]) by amsfep14-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20040330192241.DPNI28932.amsfep14-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:22:41 +0200 Message-ID: <4069C811.1000603@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:18:41 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Dillon <cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <20040330122431.P94083@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> In-Reply-To: <20040330122431.P94083@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:22:44 -0000 Chris Dillon wrote: > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, John Von Essen wrote: > > >>And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD >>seem NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a >>tech, not a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a >>suse.com or redhat.com look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the >>developer community look-n-feel. > > > Having two different web sites is unnecessary work. It is entirely > possible to have a tech-friendly site that looks good enough to > visually impress the CEO/CTO/etc. What techie people such as myself > care about is the availability of and how easy it is to find the > technical information we've come to the site looking for: > documentation, FAQs, Knowledge Base, software downloads/patches, and > so on... The FreeBSD site already does this fairly well except for the > lack of a decent search engine. Well, indeed, but these aren't things that corporations are looking for. They're looking for testamonials, applications, how other companies are innovating with your product. They're looking for lists of new features; not hardware compatibilty lists. Indeed, they're not even looking for downloads and patches (although they will want to see your security record). > I will sometimes judge a product based on the quality of the technical > information available for it on the official website. If the web site > is devoid of any useful information, no matter how good it looks I'm > likely to brush it off and go look for something else. If I can find > what I want _and_ the site looks spiffy at the same time, that's extra > brownie points and makes the product that much more impressive in my > eyes. Take m0n0wall (http://m0n0.ch/wall) for example. I was > impressed when I saw the non-typical (for open source), clean and > professional web page that told me everything I wanted to know about > what it is, what it does, what they've been doing lately, etc., and > then blown away by the product itself. It's no SuSE or RedHat site, > but its good in its own way. That's a win-win scenario in my book. > :-) It's just not what the big companies are looking for. It is a large amount of work, but it is necessary for the ``look and feel.'' The CEOs are the guys who end up making the decisions (yes, I know that CTOs do exist, but they still have to report to the guy on top). Admittedly, one thing all these other OSes have that FreeBSD doesn't is commercial support, which is something that a lot of enterprises are looking for (they want someone to fix their stuff if it breaks, they want a contract so that they don't have to pay their already over-stressed admins even more overtime). The above paragraph is a bit spastic, but my basic point is that tastes differ among people. And whether or not you like the current page doesn't mean that the message couldn't be improved for corporations and ``enterprises'' by creating a more targeted page. > That said, the FreeBSD website really isn't that bad. It could stand > a facelift now and then to keep things buzzing, but don't sacrifice > its usability. > Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:26:13 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49D816A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep19-int.chello.nl (amsfep19-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B4D43D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:26:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([62.163.150.239]) by amsfep19-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with ESMTP id <20040330192611.WIGJ23304.amsfep19-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com> for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:26:11 +0200 Message-ID: <4069C8F2.5000809@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:22:26 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Call for Developers (Was: Re: The Website) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:26:13 -0000 Okay, I think that it has somewhat come down to this: * If you're interested in creating a separate site from FreeBSD.org that attempts to market FreeBSD to corporations, please email me. * Otherwise, let the thread drop. If I get enough interested response, I will set up a Wiki for the project and we can begin. If there isn't can we _PLEASE_ let this thread die FOREVER? Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:45:04 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3554616A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 73C8943D39 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 83586 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Mar 2004 19:44:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:55 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> To: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> Message-ID: <20040330194455.GA88714@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com>, Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> References: <KmpG67BOHaaAFwo2@caomhin.demon.co.uk> <40695EDA.10793.7ABE6086@localhost> <20040330115339.D3419@beck.quonix.net> <20040330181149.GA74596@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <4069C5C1.5020407@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4069C5C1.5020407@sitetronics.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> cc: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:45:04 -0000 Devon H. O'Dell [Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 09:08:49PM +0200]: > Indeed. Unfortunately, here is where you start to get into popularity. > More people will be able to contribute (code-wise) to a PHP-based > project than a, say, Ruby-based project. Well, this is getting a bit offtopic, but perhaps in the future it could be a good reference for people, who want to start with such projects. Real problem with PHP is, that it allows you to mix content & style easily. For many people it is the first programming language today; this can create bad programming practices. I've got a very simple PHP implementation of MVC framework, basically the idea is a copycat of rendering as seen Twisted Woven/Newov projects. I could polish that code a bit, add some documentation and publish it somewhere, if there is demand. > XHTML compliancy? What version? Currently irrelevant :) > One other thing I would add to this list is distribution. FreeBSD.org > has content that is mirrored across the globe via CVS or CVSup. How do > you distribute the content of this site? Same as rest of CVS. NetBSD, for example, has directory called "othersrc" in their repository, which is for sources, that don't fit to "src", "pkgsrc", "xsrc". Perhaps this would be a good place for the sources of the web engine. No idea about data. SQL dumps in CVS seem, well... unwise. > PHP 5's objects are fashionable, though I'd still argue that OO > development isn't necessary for web development. That's not exactly fashion. By using Adapter/Interface approach, you can write very clean and very extensible code. Basically, for example, the main page rendering procedure adapts all the objects it has to render using interface called "RenderIt", for example. Each of the objects can be different class - it can be a built-in type (string or array in PHP), it can be a paragraph object, it can be a picture. Adaptation of, for example, class Picture to interface RenderIt, would be done via a 3rd class (called, for example, PictureRenderer). Using this approach, you can have many ways to render a given object, even in a different contexts. Example code? See paragraph about page rendering. > I know very little about Python, but there are other languages to > consider. Namely: > > * C 1 month of Python coding can be worth 6 months of C/C++ coding. Belive me. Not always, but very often. I'd not consider C as a basic language of such website; it would be of course a great help in some areas, that need optimization - but basically, all the alghoritms should be first created in a high level language. Python, for example, seems much easier to debug, much harder to exploit via a buffer overflow, comes with interactive mode. Yes, there's Ch.. :) > * Combination of any of the above That's also important. Currently, except SQL database, I don't see other ways to exchange data between scripts/programs written in different languages. Propositions? > There have been some ridiculous security vulnerabilities in Zope as of > late. (From what I've heard. Don't jump on me, I'm repeating what's been > told to me.) I don't know if ZODB can be clustered/distributed, which is > my personal main concern with a database. Of course, bugs happen in every software project. My suggestion to have a look at Zope didn't mean, that we should use it as a basic development platform. My point is, that you can learn a lot about implementation of such software from so big project as it - this is very important, and I personally didn't found any PHP project, that would incorporate as advanced solutions, as Zope or Twisted. Language barieer? Perhaps. PHP still has to get mature. > This begs the question though: develop your own CMS or use/expand an > existing system. These are all things that need to be discussed. Pass. I've never seriously used any CMS. Propositions? (other, than www.plone.org) ? -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 11:48:42 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089AC16A4D2 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E860943D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2909) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B8PDb-0005T3-49; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:48:15 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <GFNZANVM>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:38:04 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id HX2WPVF7; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:36:47 -0800 From: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:45:33 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <20040330104228.GA27671@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403301145.33556.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B8PDb-0005T3-49*lVh42Rii3..* Subject: Re: Advocacy on ZDNet X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:48:42 -0000 On Tuesday 30 March 2004 02:42 am, Charon wrote: > Anyone care to comment on this at www.zdnet.com.au > > To anonymous FreeBSD user. > > Due to its licence, FreeBSD cannot become an enterprise platform > from the vendor's perspective. They all fear heavy proprietisation > and forking of any non-GPL codebase. This is nonsense. If these commercial enterprise users are truly concerned about the license, they are more than free to fork off a GPL distribution of FreeBSD! Certainly whatever code they themselves make can be licensed however they want it. The licensing may be of concern to a hacker, who's actually contributing to the project, but it's of no concern to a company who merely wants to use the OS. > The only OS that can fly to where the Open Source world wants it to > fly is Linux, FreeBSD is now 5+ years behind in terms of enterprise > readiness. Please keep up with the times and avoid this whole OS > pissing contest thing. It all depends on what he means by "enterprise readiness". If he was talking about IBM mainframes, he may be correct. But the vast majority of enterprises will NEVER have an IBM mainframe. In other areas of enterprise readiness, we're at the roughly the same level as Linux. A bit behind in some, a bit ahead in others. FreeBSD is not going to do as good of a job on a Sun Enterprise Server as Solaris, but then neither will Linux. > Remember, we're not talking single-CPU internet servers anymore. > FreeBSD cannot scale to 64 CPUs nor does it have the hardware > support necessary to breach the enterprise space. Linux can't scale to 64 CPUs either. So what's the point? And what is the necessary hardware support? When I can fill a roomful of racks with made-for-FreeBSD 7U quad Xeons, the only thing missing for "enterprise readiness" is perception. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 13:09:26 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A52316A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pccwbtn.com (mx.pccwbtn.com [63.216.0.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05CAE43D2D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) Received: from willow.webcoves.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pccwbtn.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i2UL9Bur095337; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:09:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Marina Brown <mbrown@btnaccess.com> Organization: Beyond The Network To: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:11:22 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403301611.22594.mbrown@btnaccess.com> cc: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net> Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:09:26 -0000 On Tuesday 30 March 2004 02:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: Last time i looked the FreeBSD site was clean and easy to navigate. I can not even think of a big corporate site that can claim that. Slick is not neccesarilly better. Marina > On Tuesday 30 March 2004 07:26 am, John Von Essen wrote: > > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD > > seem NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a > > tech, not a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com > > or redhat.com look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer > > community look-n-feel. > > I hate to say this, but FreeBSD is definitely NON-enterprise. That's > because we are not an enterprise! We are a non-commercial community > based operating system. > > There is no way we could have a Redhat or SuSE style site, because we > don't sell anything or provide paid support. We don't have "Business > Customers", commercial "solutions", shrink wrapped boxes, offer > certification, funds for professionally created graphics, etc. Some of > this could be provided by commercial vendors of FreeBSD (Daemonnews, > FreeBSD Mall), but not by FreeBSD itself. > > Actually, now that I look at it, the FreeBSD site follows the same basi= c > layout as the KDE site. Last I heard KDE was turning heads in the > enterprise... > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.= org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 13:21:39 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC6416A4D0 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from web60402.mail.yahoo.com (web60402.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 832E643D3F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040330212138.61691.qmail@web60402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.51.136] by web60402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:21:38 PST Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) From: twig les <twigles@yahoo.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200403301611.22594.mbrown@btnaccess.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:21:39 -0000 --- Marina Brown <mbrown@btnaccess.com> wrote: > On Tuesday 30 March 2004 02:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: > > Last time i looked the FreeBSD site was clean and easy to > navigate. > I'm giving a Linux distro another shot right now (it's been 2 years...) and must say that the mandrake site makes my head hurt. http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-us/ ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:11:04 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6405D16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.nativenerds.com (host-12-49-220-24.midco.net [24.220.49.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AD843D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:11:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from estover@nativenerds.com) Received: from [192.168.1.189] ([192.168.1.189]) by www.nativenerds.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2V65ECc098634; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:05:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from estover@nativenerds.com) From: Ed Stover <estover@nativenerds.com> To: John Von Essen <essenz@beck.quonix.net>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040330110035.T3001@beck.quonix.net> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <1080661480.4341.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040330110035.T3001@beck.quonix.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Native Nerds Message-Id: <1080713449.14130.11.camel@Macinlinuz> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5a) Date: 30 Mar 2004 23:10:49 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The Website X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: estover@nativenerds.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:11:04 -0000 You can get them to run FreeBSD on every server inhouse, all you have to do is ; 1> Show them all the advantages FreeBSD has to offer 2> Show them the money that could be saved 3> Let the management think that the conversion was there idea 4> Allow management the take all the credit when you have stable servers. On Tue, 2004-03-30 at 09:08, John Von Essen wrote: > Bam.... > > You just hit it with the Linux note. If I propose to use FreeBSD on our > production web pool, I'll get shot down. > > However, I can easily convince management to convert to Linux!!! In their > minds linux is more mature and stable then this FreeBSD thing that they > never heard of. > > Its sad but true... I dont think a new .com site will change everything, > but it would definitely help. As for volunteering, web design aint my > thing. But, it might help if the core team opened up the possibility of a > new .com site in a more formal manner. I mean, more then just saying, go > make a site, show it to us, and then we'll think about it. > > -john > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, dereck wrote: > > > John, > > 1. I agree with you that it is hard to get management to accept FreeBSD > > - perception is poor, though I'm not quite sure why. > > > > 2. I disagree that the website is to blame. I think it could use work, > > but as far as OSS software goes, it is pretty solid. (The search sucks, > > though :-) .) However, if you can do an alternative one there will be > > ways to get the people to use it. I for one encourage you to work on an > > alternative if you have time. > > > > 3. You management uses Solaris (!) - count your blessings. It could be > > FAR FAR worse!!! From my experience with [shall remain unnamed] *NIXES > > I'd rather deal with Solaris than any others apart from *BSD. But if > > your management moves to Linux, get another job :-). > > > > best, > > dereck > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2004-03-30 at 10:26, John Von Essen wrote: > > > This is an interesting point. Alot of big companies use FreeBSD, but under > > > the following conditions: > > > > > > 1. The lead/senior sysadmins are old FreeBSD guru's > > > 2. The systems that have FreeBSD installed are low-profile and can't be > > > easily spotted (audited). > > > 3. Management has loose control over their employees > > > > > > I am working for a large insurance company right now. Because, I love > > > FreeBSD, I have made an attempt to "slip" FreeBSD into the network - on > > > some backend mail servers, intranet web servers, etc.,. However, I still > > > have no chance of getting FreeBSD into, say, our production web server > > > pool. Management is brain-washed and all they know is Solaris, Solaris, > > > Solaris, IBM, IBM, IBM. > > > > > > And... It doesn't help when they go to freebsd.org. It makes FreeBSD seem > > > NON-enterprise. Personally, i think the site is fine, but Im a tech, not > > > a CTO. Maybe, freebsd.com can be redesigned have a suse.com or redhat.com > > > look-n-feel, and freebsd.org can retain - the developer community > > > look-n-feel. > > > > > > -john > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > > > > > > Paul Robinson wrote: > > > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is the problem FreeBSD generally has. A lot of people would > > > > > actually like to see more developers move to FreeBSD and contribute to > > > > > the project. It then follows that as the "product" improves, we are able > > > > > to see a rise in the number of users. Pedantic, yes, but I'm becoming > > > > > less convinced of the need for us to get FreeBSD onto the family PC. I > > > > > would like to see it on a lot more developer's desks though. > > > > > > > > And in more companies. FreeBSD is already used by many (large) companies > > > > (including those in the Fortune 500). I know that even MS uses FreeBSD > > > > for the SFU software. > > > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Won't you expect the competition's product to be a better alternative to > > > > > the one you currently use? Do you honestly believe that OS choice is > > > > > dependent on what the website looks like? If so, how did Mandrake ever > > > > > take off? > > > > > > > > I have to agree here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip; poor formatting] > > > > >> the moment it looks like a three column url listing with no > > > > >> really strong visual cues to things important to capturing, > > > > >> converting, and supporting new users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, you know what the answer is then, don't you? You can grab the > > > > > source, talk to the web team, produce a better version. Remember it has > > > > > to be readable in text browsers, conform to WAI and Internationalisation > > > > > standards and everyone has to agree by mutual consent it's a better > > > > > design than the existing one. > > > > > > > > AMEN. This is a bikeshed that gets discussed every 6 or so months. > > > > Search advocacy@, doc@ and any number of other mailing lists for the > > > > amount of complaints about the webpage. As per the suggestion always > > > > posted that the FreeBSD page is too ``simple,'' my answer remains: > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com > > > > http://www.sun.com > > > > > > > > Simple, huh? > > > > > > > > As I stated on your other thread regarding the post on the ZDNet.au > > > > site; if you can't put up, shut up. I say that in a coarse manner not to > > > > be obtuse, but to discourage you and others from continuing with a > > > > bikeshed that nobody seems to care to fix. If you want to make a new > > > > site for FreeBSD, make a template, see what you can do, but don't expect > > > > it to be used. > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Devon H. O'Dell > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:50:20 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA8A16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0717543D2D for <freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:50:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2V6oJbv032572 for <freebsd-advocacy@freefall.freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:50:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2V6oJ70032571; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:50:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:50:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Message-Id: <200403310650.i2V6oJ70032571@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, "Tom McLaughlin" <tmclaugh@sdf.lonestar.org> Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C12C16A4CF for <FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from compass.straycat.dhs.org (h0050da134090.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.91.148.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C3C43D41 for <FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org>; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:40:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tmclaugh@sdf.lonestar.org) Received: from compass.straycat.dhs.org (compass [192.168.1.128]) i2V6mPkU037907; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:48:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tmclaugh@sdf.lonestar.org) Message-Id: <1080715706.0@compass.straycat.dhs.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:48:26 -0500 From: "Tom McLaughlin" <tmclaugh@sdf.lonestar.org> To: "FreeBSD gnats submit" <FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org> X-Send-Pr-Version: gtk-send-pr 0.3.3 cc: dyeske@yahoo.com Subject: advocacy/64970: audio/baudline: update port to 0.97, unbreak X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:50:20 -0000 >Number: 64970 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: audio/baudline: update port to 0.97, unbreak >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: sw-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Tue Mar 30 22:50:19 PST 2004 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Tom McLaughlin >Release: FreeBSD 4.9-RELEASE-p4 i386 >Organization: >Environment: System: FreeBSD 4.9-RELEASE-p4 #0: Wed Mar 17 21:16:53 EST 2004 root@compass.straycat.dhs.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/COMPASS >Description: Update port to version 0.97 and unbreak port. Also added a run dependency on mpg123 which is required to process MPEG audio when using baudline. Maintainer CC'ed on this PR. >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: --- baudline-0.97.diff begins here --- diff -Nur baudline.orig/Makefile baudline/Makefile --- baudline.orig/Makefile Sat Mar 27 00:47:25 2004 +++ baudline/Makefile Wed Mar 31 01:39:12 2004 @@ -6,7 +6,7 @@ # PORTNAME= baudline -PORTVERSION= 0.96 +PORTVERSION= 0.97 CATEGORIES= audio linux MASTER_SITES= http://www.baudline.com/ PKGNAMEPREFIX= linux- @@ -15,13 +15,13 @@ MAINTAINER= dyeske@yahoo.com COMMENT= A real-time signal analysis tool and an offline time-frequency browser +RUN_DEPENDS= mpg123:${PORTSDIR}/audio/mpg123 + USE_X_PREFIX= yes ONLY_FOR_ARCHS= i386 USE_LINUX= yes NO_BUILD= yes STRIP= - -BROKEN= "Unfetchable" BRANDELF?= /usr/bin/brandelf diff -Nur baudline.orig/distinfo baudline/distinfo --- baudline.orig/distinfo Sun Dec 14 20:33:07 2003 +++ baudline/distinfo Wed Mar 31 00:59:19 2004 @@ -1 +1,2 @@ -MD5 (baudline_0.96_i686.tar.gz) = e7c9487ea201b2b2b92839260e1ff04f +MD5 (baudline_0.97_i686.tar.gz) = dd06fdc82dbcc40ad786d13e27bee9de +SIZE (baudline_0.97_i686.tar.gz) = 771677 --- baudline-0.97.diff ends here --- >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 04:05:03 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0832816A4CE; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE2E43D1F; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (josef@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2VC52bv070872; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from josef@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2VC5216070868; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: Josef El-Rayes <josef@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: <200403311205.i2VC5216070868@freefall.freebsd.org> To: josef@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ports/64970: audio/baudline: update port to 0.97, unbreak X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:05:03 -0000 Synopsis: audio/baudline: update port to 0.97, unbreak Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-advocacy-> Responsible-Changed-By: josef Responsible-Changed-When: Wed Mar 31 04:02:54 PST 2004 Responsible-Changed-Why: This belongs to ports-bugs. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=64970 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 08:31:08 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E3916A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep13-int.chello.nl (amsfep13-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A2643D31 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:31:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([62.163.150.239]) by amsfep13-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20040331163105.DSQC20933.amsfep13-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:31:05 +0200 Message-ID: <406AF173.6040003@sitetronics.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:27:31 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@sitetronics.com> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <4069C8F2.5000809@sitetronics.com> In-Reply-To: <4069C8F2.5000809@sitetronics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Call for Developers (Was: Re: The Website) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:31:08 -0000 I've actually gotten a decent bit of response on this. I'll be setting up the Wiki later this week. Please, if you're interested in helping, let me know. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 14:45:42 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEF516A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D4D43D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.12] ([64.230.164.114]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040331224540.LTMJ1581.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.12]> for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:45:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:50:32 -0500 (EST) From: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:45:42 -0000 O'Reilly is in the process of creating a "BSD Success Stories" booklet to be given away at trade shows, conferences, etc. For those of you who are familiar with the "Perl Success Stories", it will be following a similar format. You can get an idea of the types of stories at: http://perl.oreilly.com/news/success_stories.html If anyone is interested in contributing a success story, please contact chromatic@oreilly.com. If we can get five or six fairly quickly, there's a good chance the booklets will be ready for BSDCan (www.bsdcan.org) :-) Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 15:05:15 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8647E16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6213F43D41 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:05:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2VN4FjL027044; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id i2VN4FrA027043; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:04:15 -0800 From: Matt Olander <matt@offmyserver.com> To: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20040331150415.A26746@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org>; from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca on Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 05:50:32PM -0500 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:05:15 -0000 On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 05:50:32PM -0500, Dru wrote: > O'Reilly is in the process of creating a "BSD Success Stories" booklet to > be given away at trade shows, conferences, etc. For those of you who are > familiar with the "Perl Success Stories", it will be following a similar > format. You can get an idea of the types of stories at: > > http://perl.oreilly.com/news/success_stories.html > > If anyone is interested in contributing a success story, please contact > chromatic@oreilly.com. If we can get five or six fairly quickly, there's a > good chance the booklets will be ready for BSDCan (www.bsdcan.org) :-) great! thanks Dru. we'll be sure to submit our recent story of converting www.hostdepartment.com over to FreeBSD. previously, the company was using RedHat and faced an additional 21,000 dollar cost to upgrade to the advanced server edition. that, plus the ongoing annual support costs can get a bit expensive. now, they have 30 new systems running FreeBSD that are outperforming their previous Linux machines, and, with a bit of training, are now lower maintenence than ever before ;-) it should also boost FreeBSD on the netcraft lists too since this customer hosts so many (100k plus?) websites. cheers, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 16:36:02 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A7616A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE24943D3F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:36:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from [192.168.2.100] ([24.43.93.57]) by fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.comESMTP <20040401003445.ENXB39251.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@[192.168.2.100]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:34:45 -0500 From: Mike Jeays <Mike.Jeays@rogers.com> To: Matt Olander <matt@offmyserver.com> In-Reply-To: <20040331150415.A26746@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> <20040331150415.A26746@knight.ixsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1080779750.3107.13.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 31 Mar 2004 19:35:50 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.43.93.57] using ID <mjeays2551@rogers.com> at Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:34:45 -0500 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:36:02 -0000 On Wed, 2004-03-31 at 18:04, Matt Olander wrote: > On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 05:50:32PM -0500, Dru wrote: > > O'Reilly is in the process of creating a "BSD Success Stories" booklet to > > be given away at trade shows, conferences, etc. For those of you who are > > familiar with the "Perl Success Stories", it will be following a similar > > format. You can get an idea of the types of stories at: > > > > http://perl.oreilly.com/news/success_stories.html > > > > If anyone is interested in contributing a success story, please contact > > chromatic@oreilly.com. If we can get five or six fairly quickly, there's a > > good chance the booklets will be ready for BSDCan (www.bsdcan.org) :-) > > great! thanks Dru. we'll be sure to submit our recent story of > converting www.hostdepartment.com over to FreeBSD. previously, the company > was using RedHat and faced an additional 21,000 dollar cost to upgrade > to the advanced server edition. that, plus the ongoing annual support > costs can get a bit expensive. > > now, they have 30 new systems running FreeBSD that are outperforming > their previous Linux machines, and, with a bit of training, are now > lower maintenence than ever before ;-) > > it should also boost FreeBSD on the netcraft lists too since this customer hosts so > many (100k plus?) websites. > > cheers, > -matt > I am really glad they switched to FreeBSD, and I am sure it will turn out well for them - but I wonder why they didn't just stop buying support from Red Hat, and switching to Fedora, or one of the other Linux distributions that can be run without paying a support fee? Do they have a quote on how much better the performance is? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 16:43:34 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898B716A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710ED43D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:43:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i310gYjL028165; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:42:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id i310gYLS028164; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:42:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:42:34 -0800 From: Matt Olander <matt@offmyserver.com> To: Mike Jeays <Mike.Jeays@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20040331164234.F26746@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> <20040331150415.A26746@knight.ixsystems.net> <1080779750.3107.13.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1080779750.3107.13.camel@chaucer>; from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com on Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:35:50PM -0500 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:43:34 -0000 On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:35:50PM -0500, Mike Jeays wrote: > I am really glad they switched to FreeBSD, and I am sure it will turn > out well for them - but I wonder why they didn't just stop buying > support from Red Hat, and switching to Fedora, or one of the other Linux > distributions that can be run without paying a support fee? Because I told them FreeBSD was better ;-) Actually, for a variety of reasons, some of them concerning the SCO issues. My company is not going to indemnify end-users from any potential lawsuits resulting in purchasing Linux servers. Seems like a non-issue until you are actually being sued. At that point, it may not even be a matter of who's wrong and who's right, but who can afford more attorney fees. Also, PSoft, the software company that makes the hosting software that they use apparently do their development work on FreeBSD and recommended it as well. > Do they have a quote on how much better the performance is? I don't know that they have many hard numbers, but I'll certainly poke around when I'm writing this up. cheers, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 20:02:47 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997B016A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB53A43D41 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i3142MGB034093 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:02:22 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from root@localhost)i3142MMu034092 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:02:22 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from root) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:02:21 +0800 From: Charlie Root <root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040401040221.GA33856@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <4069C8F2.5000809@sitetronics.com> <406AF173.6040003@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <406AF173.6040003@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Call for Developers (Was: Re: The Website) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:02:47 -0000 On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 06:27:31PM +0200, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > Please, if you're interested in helping, let me know. Can we have at least some of the dialogue concerning the website on the mailing lists. It would help to keep the discussions/themes/ideas from becoming volatile (in the sense of a new subscriber might miss the thread). I had a closer look at some of the sites mentioned - RedHat, SuSe. IBM, and m0n0wall. I started with a goal 'I want to download Linux' or 'I want to download software' and tried to get a sense of whats involved. I found it easiest to think of it in terms of a finite state machine with pages representing a state. The visual cues, information in proximity to those cues, and apparent target audience I listed as triggers for a state transition (click to the next state). What sticks out immediately is the rapid differentiation of customers into business and other groups. If I am a member of a particular group I get reinforcement of the sense that the product is targetted at the group I belong to. What also sticks out is the limited amount of thought required to get from one state to the next and the limited number of total steps in the process (in the case of RedHat - from 'I want RedHat', to 'Buy' is 3 clicks). Also in RedHats case they have a neat shortcut - for anyone totally intimidated by whats presented after the first click they have a bright red 1-800 number in the top/right corner. IBM employ a similar rapid differentiation method, they even go so far as to use carefully selected paradigms once they have enough info on what your group is (shopping carts, specials, vanity merchandise and 'managers choice' are prominent in the page designed for the home/home-office group). SuSe starts off well but seems to go awol along the way. Mandrake is not too bad. In the case of FreeBSD (and Debian). There isnt any differentiation. The information present seems to target developers and solution implementors. Theres also alot of mixing of information that is used by a 'decision maker' and 'solution implementor' in different ways. For instance - a listing of online CD/DVD retailers lets a decision maker know that there is commercial interest and that the product is usefull and sells. The same listing lets a solution implementor know where to go buy the product. The same listing lets a developer know that their effort is supported and that they will get credit and profit by what they do. But - presenting the same information with lists of CTM/ftp/mirror sites etc makes the decision maker process more difficult and immediately gives the sense that the site is in some way pushing developer oriented software. Now to products and services. IBM has a clearly defined way of differentiating the audience and then presenting them with the idea that they are buying a complete solution or service. RedHat do the same. But FreeBSD does not provide either a product targetting a specific application nor a service for a business. What it provides is a product that needs to be taylored to an application by an implementor and information on where to find third party services. One way of handling this is to differentiate the sites user and then - in the case of a businessman or decision maker - use case studies, news articles, etc that don't contain technical implementation details but do contain positive outcome statements particularly when these cases target a particular solution. Side by side with this should be the means to rapidly find technical oriented information so that responsibility for implementation can be delegated easily by the decision maker. An example of how this could work. A CEO hears about FreeBSD and visits www.freebsd.org. he gets a visual cue that sends him through a series of states that provide easy to digest information and reinforces his ideas about himself and his business. now hes been differentiated and is targetted specifically by being presented with case studies and other information that tells him that others have done similar things and that a decision he is making is likely to be low risk, cost effective, and has a positive outcome. at this point he can click on a link that gives him implementation details (click: too hard, delegate to local implementori/CTO) or he can easily find some way to delegate responsibility to a third party for a solution (click: businesses that can implement the solution for him). ps: the m0n0wall website was a big help - particularly since i'd never visited the site and had no preconcieved ideas about the site. Can we get some feedback on other sites and maybe some of the ways they function? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 20:52:13 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E4416A4CF for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF1143D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i314pmGB034224 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:51:48 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from root@localhost)i314pmMs034223 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:51:48 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from root) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:51:48 +0800 From: Charlie Root <root@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040401045148.GA34170@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <002f01c4165c$a0c0d1d0$6f01a8c0@miter.local> <40697A82.2070402@sitetronics.com> <20040330101519.R2711@beck.quonix.net> <200403301116.51886.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <4069C8F2.5000809@sitetronics.com> <406AF173.6040003@sitetronics.com> <20040401040221.GA33856@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040401040221.GA33856@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Call for Developers (Was: Re: The Website) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:52:13 -0000 > now hes been differentiated and is targetted specifically by > being presented with case studies and other information that > tells him that others have done similar things and that a decision > he is making is likely to be low risk, cost effective, and has a > positive outcome. I didn't think of it at the time but case studies don't have to specifically mention FreeBSD. If the study is platform neutral then a link can still be made between what method was used and the ability to use that method on FreeBSD. For instance, a Perl success story about a particular solution and knowledge that Perl runs on FreeBSD will reinforce the notion that FreeBSD can be part of the solution. I'm just trying to enlarge the pool of Advocacy material that could be used. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 01:12:52 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8A016A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FC343D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:12:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i319BnM1070077; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:12:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <406BDCD0.9010404@401.cx> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:11:44 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" <listsub@401.cx> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> In-Reply-To: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 'clamd / ClamAV version 0.65', clamav-milter version '0.60p' cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:12:52 -0000 Dru wrote: > O'Reilly is in the process of creating a "BSD Success Stories" booklet to > be given away at trade shows, conferences, etc. For those of you who are > familiar with the "Perl Success Stories", it will be following a similar > format. You can get an idea of the types of stories at: > > http://perl.oreilly.com/news/success_stories.html > > If anyone is interested in contributing a success story, please contact > chromatic@oreilly.com. If we can get five or six fairly quickly, there's a > good chance the booklets will be ready for BSDCan (www.bsdcan.org) :-) > > Dru Do we have anyone at Yahoo! that could write something up for us? Yahoo! must without doubt be one of the biggest feathers in FreeBSD's hat. I know that distributed.net runs FreeBSD. It would be nice to have something from them that shows that BSD can handle massive SQL databases for those that like that. I know that a lot of people for some reason turns to linux/MySQL when it comes to databases. Showing that a project like distributed.net with their huge databases uses FreeBSD should convince atleast some people to take another look at BSD. Does anyone know anyone inside Yahoo! or distributed.net? -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 01:56:08 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BAE16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.euronet.nl (smtp1.euronet.nl [194.134.35.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD1743D1F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:56:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from offmyserver.com (zp-c-13e65.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl [81.69.92.101]) by smtp1.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DFC67236; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:56:06 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <406BE65F.9030709@offmyserver.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:52:31 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@offmyserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg <listsub@401.cx>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matt Olander <matt@offmyserver.com> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> <406BDCD0.9010404@401.cx> In-Reply-To: <406BDCD0.9010404@401.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:56:08 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Do we have anyone at Yahoo! that could write something up for us? Yahoo! > must without doubt be one of the biggest feathers in FreeBSD's hat. > > I know that distributed.net runs FreeBSD. It would be nice to have > something from them that shows that BSD can handle massive SQL databases > for those that like that. I know that a lot of people for some reason > turns to linux/MySQL when it comes to databases. Showing that a project > like distributed.net with their huge databases uses FreeBSD should > convince atleast some people to take another look at BSD. > > Does anyone know anyone inside Yahoo! or distributed.net? > > -- > R Not to mention Juniper, NASA, Envivio, About.com and many others. I'm sure Matt can get our customers to write a quick testimonial for this, being the great businessman he is :) Dru: is there a more concrete deadline than ``fairly quickly''? Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 02:34:25 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC2816A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 02:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B04C43D45 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 02:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 31312 invoked by uid 1001); 1 Apr 2004 10:34:23 -0000 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:34:23 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg <listsub@401.cx> Message-ID: <20040401103423.GA30825@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg <listsub@401.cx>, Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> <406BDCD0.9010404@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <406BDCD0.9010404@401.cx> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:34:25 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg [Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:11:44AM +0200]: > Do we have anyone at Yahoo! that could write something up for us? > Yahoo! must without doubt be one of the biggest feathers in > FreeBSD's hat. Roger and everyone - don't get me wrong, but as I already wrote it somewhere: I am quite tired of "Yahoo runs FreeBSD" advocacy. In the "ancient" times, their success story was very important for FreeBSD, as it clearly showed, that they would be unable to accomplish their task the same way, as they did it with FreeBSD - Linux was too immature at that time. Today the times have changed - Linux is often used to do large projects, like google.com, for example. This doesn't mean that we should ignore the fact Yahoo uses it - not at all - but, perhaps, people like me would really be more interested in hearing about other companies and projects, that use FreeBSD, as we already heard, that Yahoo does it. Many times. Also, chances are, that Yahoo! is not as popular and not as widely known in my country, as it is in yours. > I know that distributed.net runs FreeBSD. It would be nice to have > something from them that shows that BSD can handle massive SQL ... and that's news for me. I haven't heard that they use FreeBSD. I look forward to hear about much more other projects! Take care, -- Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl :: http://winsrc.sf.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 06:40:27 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C4316A4CF for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41115.mail.yahoo.com (web41115.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4868243D2D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:40:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Message-ID: <20040401144026.99535.qmail@web41115.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.172.45.60] by web41115.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:40:26 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" <scott@sremick.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <406BE65F.9030709@offmyserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:40:27 -0000 --- "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@offmyserver.com> wrote: > Not to mention Juniper, NASA, Envivio, About.com and many others. Let me know if you need help w/ About.com. I'm kind of on the inside there and could probably at least hook you up with names/emails of people. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 10:58:40 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDA016A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E34F43D45 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:59:17 -0600 Message-ID: <406C665E.6000505@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:58:38 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." <kdk@daleco.biz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040322 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> In-Reply-To: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 18:59:18.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F417180:01C4181B] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:58:40 -0000 Dru wrote: >O'Reilly is in the process of creating a "BSD Success Stories" booklet to >be given away at trade shows, conferences, etc. For those of you who are >familiar with the "Perl Success Stories", it will be following a similar >format. You can get an idea of the types of stories at: > > > Could a few of y'all (yeah, I'm Southern at heart) do me a favor and take a look at this piece? http://daleco.biz/FBSDstory.rtf http://daleco.biz/fbsdstory.html Please note that the HTML version is a quick PHP hack to make a badly formatted txt version more palatable (e.g, it's still awful). I'm gonna have to look into settings on "TextMaker" before I can make its txt docs public, I guess. I'll try and fix up the HTML later, but I"ve gotta get lunch and head out on a service call.... The story is most certainly small potatoes; should I even bother to send it in? Who else, besides Matt, is working on this? I did spend a good bit of time with the language ... what are your thoughts? Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 11:16:35 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE5016A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts36.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3CE43D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:16:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.12] ([64.230.164.114]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040401191633.KCUO1581.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.12]>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:16:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:21:26 -0500 (EST) From: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." <kdk@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <406C665E.6000505@daleco.biz> Message-ID: <20040401141933.H577@dru.domain.org> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> <406C665E.6000505@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:16:35 -0000 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > Dru wrote: > > >O'Reilly is in the process of creating a "BSD Success Stories" booklet to > >be given away at trade shows, conferences, etc. For those of you who are > >familiar with the "Perl Success Stories", it will be following a similar > >format. You can get an idea of the types of stories at: > > > > > > > > Could a few of y'all (yeah, I'm Southern at heart) > do me a favor and take a look at this piece? > > http://daleco.biz/FBSDstory.rtf > http://daleco.biz/fbsdstory.html > > Please note that the HTML version is a quick > PHP hack to make a badly formatted txt version > more palatable (e.g, it's still awful). I'm gonna > have to look into settings on "TextMaker" before > I can make its txt docs public, I guess. I'll try > and fix up the HTML later, but I"ve gotta get > lunch and head out on a service call.... > > The story is most certainly small potatoes; > should I even bother to send it in? Who else, > besides Matt, is working on this? > > I did spend a good bit of time with the > language ... what are your thoughts? I like it and don't think it is "small potatoes". Ease of use and reliability (even for the small network) is worth talking about. Send it to chromatic and he'll work with you to edit it to the requirements for the booklet... Cheers, Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 13:25:58 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0526416A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A555943D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:25:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.12] ([64.230.164.114]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040401212555.QDPY1581.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.12]>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:25:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:30:49 -0500 (EST) From: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: "Devon H. O'Dell" <dodell@offmyserver.com> In-Reply-To: <406BE65F.9030709@offmyserver.com> Message-ID: <20040401162650.E577@dru.domain.org> References: <20040331174544.B577@dru.domain.org> <406BDCD0.9010404@401.cx> <406BE65F.9030709@offmyserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:25:58 -0000 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > > > Do we have anyone at Yahoo! that could write something up for us? Yahoo! > > must without doubt be one of the biggest feathers in FreeBSD's hat. > > > > I know that distributed.net runs FreeBSD. It would be nice to have > > something from them that shows that BSD can handle massive SQL databases > > for those that like that. I know that a lot of people for some reason > > turns to linux/MySQL when it comes to databases. Showing that a project > > like distributed.net with their huge databases uses FreeBSD should > > convince atleast some people to take another look at BSD. > > > > Does anyone know anyone inside Yahoo! or distributed.net? > > > > -- > > R > > Not to mention Juniper, NASA, Envivio, About.com and many others. I'm > sure Matt can get our customers to write a quick testimonial for this, > being the great businessman he is :) > > Dru: is there a more concrete deadline than ``fairly quickly''? Next Wednesday so that this particular booklet can be edited and published in time. However, those that are under time constraints, write one up as you can. If we get enough, we can have different versions of the booklet; also once we have enough, we can have an URL similar to the Perl Success Stories one. chromatic has also indicated that he is more interested in personal (small/medium network) stories written by those in the trenches, rather than the big impersonal stories. Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 14:07:03 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C94C16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79ECA43D1D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from COPPERMAWXP (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56A86A832 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:07:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Charles Oppermann" <charles@coppersoftware.com> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:07:01 -0800 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2096 In-Reply-To: <20040401103423.GA30825@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Thread-Index: AcQX1b7QMtMJVXXAR8CgdUv9oYD5uAAUOXxA Message-Id: <20040401220702.B56A86A832@smtp4.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:07:03 -0000 >> Roger and everyone - don't get me wrong, but as I already wrote it somewhere: I am quite tired of "Yahoo runs FreeBSD" advocacy. In the "ancient" times, their success story was very important for FreeBSD, as it clearly showed, that they would be unable to accomplish their task the same way, as they did it with FreeBSD - Linux was too immature at that time. << I too wondered about Yahoo and FreeBSD. I guess when I hear the association made, is that implying that FreeBSD is being used for development internally, or intranet servers? When my browser connects to a yahoo.com server, what platform is that server running? If it's FreeBSD, that's a huge deal. If it's a hodgepodge of platforms that serve up yahoo.com content, then is there any idea of percentage that FreeBSD or others have? Never mind - I just found netcraft.com. Yep, Yahoo runs FreeBSD on it's servers. Now, what I found very enlightening was the uptime statistics. In a ranking of sites with the highest average uptimes, BSD owns the list. FreeBSD runs on 7 of the top 25 sites for average uptime. BSD/OS runs on other 18. #5 is amedas.wni.co.jp has been running FreeBSD continually for 1,612 days. That's nearly 4 and half years! Charles Oppermann, charles@coppersoftware.com, http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 06:38:08 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4327916A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41110.mail.yahoo.com (web41110.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D59C43D3F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Message-ID: <20040402143803.52862.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.172.45.60] by web41110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 06:38:03 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:38:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" <scott@sremick.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040401220702.B56A86A832@smtp4.pacifier.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: RE: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:38:08 -0000 Will the final version of "BSD Success Stories" also be available online somewhere so we can refer people to it? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 13:43:05 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30EA16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D1D43D2D for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.12] ([64.230.164.114]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040402214303.JHNA18104.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.12]> for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:43:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:47:58 -0500 (EST) From: Dru <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca> X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040402164643.N545@dru.domain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: RE: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:43:05 -0000 >Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:38:03 -0800 (PST) >From: Scott I. Remick <scott@sremick.net> >To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: RE: BSD Success Stories >Will the final version of "BSD Success Stories" also be available online >somewhere so we can refer people to it? Yes, that's in the works. I'll post the URL once it becomes available. Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 22:11:11 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB21616A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3697A43D41 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:11:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.32] ([65.92.68.3]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net ESMTP <20040403061110.TVZA7304.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.32]> for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 01:11:10 -0500 From: Chris Laverdure <dashevil@sympatico.ca> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040401220702.B56A86A832@smtp4.pacifier.net> References: <20040401220702.B56A86A832@smtp4.pacifier.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1080972666.77366.1.camel@elemental.DashEvil> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:11:06 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 06:11:11 -0000 On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 17:07, Charles Oppermann wrote: > >> > Roger and everyone - don't get me wrong, but as I already wrote it > somewhere: I am quite tired of "Yahoo runs FreeBSD" advocacy. In the > "ancient" times, their success story was very important for FreeBSD, as it > clearly showed, that they would be unable to accomplish their task the same > way, as they did it with FreeBSD - Linux was too immature at that time. > << > > I too wondered about Yahoo and FreeBSD. I guess when I hear the association > made, is that implying that FreeBSD is being used for development > internally, or intranet servers? > > When my browser connects to a yahoo.com server, what platform is that server > running? If it's FreeBSD, that's a huge deal. > > If it's a hodgepodge of platforms that serve up yahoo.com content, then is > there any idea of percentage that FreeBSD or others have? > > Never mind - I just found netcraft.com. Yep, Yahoo runs FreeBSD on it's > servers. > > Now, what I found very enlightening was the uptime statistics. In a ranking > of sites with the highest average uptimes, BSD owns the list. FreeBSD runs > on 7 of the top 25 sites for average uptime. BSD/OS runs on other 18. #5 > is amedas.wni.co.jp has been running FreeBSD continually for 1,612 days. > That's nearly 4 and half years! > Which also means that they haven't applied any kernel level patches for four and a half years? I really question those crazy high uptimes. > > > Charles Oppermann, charles@coppersoftware.com, > http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 09:27:10 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D71B16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [134.7.165.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F5D43D2F for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: from cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au (localhost.dssrg.curtin.edu.au [127.0.0.1])i33HQhGB048853 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:26:43 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au) Received: (from charon@localhost)i33HQhiK048852 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:26:43 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:26:43 +0800 From: Charon <charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040403172643.GA48831@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> References: <20040401220702.B56A86A832@smtp4.pacifier.net> <1080972666.77366.1.camel@elemental.DashEvil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1080972666.77366.1.camel@elemental.DashEvil> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:27:10 -0000 On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 01:11:06AM -0500, Chris Laverdure wrote: > I really question those crazy high uptimes. They may reflect a carefull configuration choice to begin with. Also, consider the anti bsd sentiments of some Linux folk and the perception that old=unpatched and therefore unsecure. The uptimes might really be valid. The only way to be sure is to ask the admins of the site. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 15:53:10 2004 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA3E16A4CE for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C19D143D41 for <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:53:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 47902 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Apr 2004 23:53:14 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:53:14 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> To: Charon <charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Message-ID: <20040403235314.GA47866@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Charon <charon@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040401220702.B56A86A832@smtp4.pacifier.net> <1080972666.77366.1.camel@elemental.DashEvil> <20040403172643.GA48831@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040403172643.GA48831@cimbali.dssrg.curtin.edu.au> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Success Stories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak <michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl> List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism <freebsd-advocacy.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy>, <mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 23:53:11 -0000 Charon [Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 01:26:43AM +0800]: > On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 01:11:06AM -0500, Chris Laverdure wrote: > > I really question those crazy high uptimes. > > They may reflect a carefull configuration choice to begin > with. Also, consider the anti bsd sentiments of some > Linux folk and the perception that old=unpatched and > therefore unsecure. The uptimes might really be valid. > The only way to be sure is to ask the admins of the site. Well, the real question is: http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2004/Feb/0123.html First thing is, we can laugh at Linux developers, who couldn't code proper uptme counter until 2.6.0. Second thing is, I wonder, how the uptimes will look in 1 - 2 years, just because Linux 2.6.x is getting to be widely used. Third, I don't really know, if that fault in Linux uptime counting really hits Netcraft. Perhaps they use some other method. Anyway, uptimes need a closer examination, before we can surely state some statements about it. Comments? -- mp