From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 08:04:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7822A16A4CE; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 08:04:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org (nezlok.unixathome.org [66.154.97.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBBB43D48; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 08:04:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@nezlok.unixathome.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FF658E8; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nezlok.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 46907-10; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 315685895; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:10:02 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Langille To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041226081002.315685895@nezlok.unixathome.org> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:10:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at unixathome.org Subject: The FreeBSD Diary: 2004-12-05 - 2004-12-25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 08:04:53 -0000 The FreeBSD Diary contains a large number of practical examples and how-to guides. This message is posted weekly to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org with the aim of letting people know what's available on the website. Before you post a question here it might be a good idea to first search the mailing list archives and/or The FreeBSD Diary . These are the articles posted during this period: 6-Dec : Secure Your Wireless with IPsec WEP just isn't enough for me http://freebsddiary.org/ipsec-wireless.php?2 -- Dan Langille BSDCan - http://www.BSDCan.org/ - BSD Conference From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 15:49:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DCF16A4CE for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:49:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web80804.mail.yahoo.com (web80804.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.170.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D90343D53 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:49:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cmc3list-bsdnews@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041226154932.33575.qmail@web80804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.65.4.124] by web80804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:49:32 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:49:32 -0800 (PST) From: To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: freebsd-users list - semi regular post X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: cmc3list-bsdnews@yahoo.com List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:49:32 -0000 FreeBSD Users is a small (too small, so far :-)) informal mailing list for people who use FreeBSD. The list is not meant to compete with the formal FreeBSD lists, but to be a place for people who like to use FreeBSD to hang out, ask questions, talk about what interests them with FreeBSD. Think of it as the users group your town doesn't have :-). To join: http://www.whee.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-users I'll try to post here at least monthly. Email me if you have questions or comments. ===== Christopher Mark Conn http://storm.cadcam.iupui.edu/~cmcgoat Austin, Texas, USA From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 15:45:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C387916A4CE; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:45:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D8743D2D; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:45:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id i.1af.d12f66c (16238); Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d14.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.130]) by air-in03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ32-3f6e41d02e1638d; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:45:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:45:26 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: wes@softweyr.com, krinklyfig@spymac.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 67.106.161.246 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: grog@FreeBSD.org cc: sue@welearn.com.au cc: core@FreeBSD.org cc: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:45:38 -0000 Wes Peters wrote: < snipped for brevities sake > > Piece of cake. The server will tell you what it's running in response > a simple GET request. The way you do this is to use telnet to connect > to port 80 and tell the server GET / HTTP/1.0 followed by two carriage > returns. Thank you. Doing this showed that my ISP's server is also running 1.3.29. That was ALL that it showed though, which is probably not a bad idea. No one knows which OS they are running, whether PHP or Perl are available, etc. I understand the arguments regarding security through obscurity. Is there a good reason to display all of this information? > S: Server: Apache/1.3.29 (Unix) PHP/4.3.7 mod_ssl/2.8.16 OpenSSL/0.9.7c [Trying to stay on topic] > And so now I've violated the list charter, too. ;^) > > If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've pointed > you to it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want this same > question answered again next week, and they're not going to know to > search the archives for this wonderful answer I've just given you. > That's an even "better" problem to solve than simply answering your > question, even if it doesn't solve your immediate problem. I concur with your reasoning here. Does this mean that you believe the charter should be altered as opposed to disbanding the list? Would you be willing to join Joshua Tinnin in supporting such a change by moderating the list, helping to determine when a question should go to the -questions list, and attempting to help the newbies with their issues? I KNOW that I am not asking you to do something simple. I recognize the significance of this. But as I originally stated, modifying the charter of this list without the support of folks like you and Joshua is simply foolish, and would absolutely CREATE the very scenario that Greg was trying to prevent, newbies getting wrong answers. I am not qualified to know who COULD be qualified to answer these questions either. At best, I can only express the desire to have a place where my dumb questions are not only expected, but where someone can actually see a little past the question and try to get at the underlying cause of the original confusion. And that is NOT a simple task. Jeff __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! 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Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 19:53:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E36F16A4CE; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:53:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.finnovative.net (h204-247-59-114.ncal.verio.net [204.247.59.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558EE43D41; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:53:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linuxuser@finnovative.net) Received: from [192.168.55.105] ([192.168.55.105]) by mail.finnovative.net over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:53:18 -0800 Message-ID: <41D0682E.2070302@finnovative.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:53:18 -0800 From: Joaquin Menchaca User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Dec 2004 19:53:18.0301 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5FB78D0:01C4EC4D] cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:53:18 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical >nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why >it's not a good idea: > >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this > list. > > Support questions should be sent to > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be > sent to freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list > please) > > Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ > > Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information > regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list. > >2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as > mentioned above: FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.org. > >3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't > read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer > technical questions there. > >The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get >an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct. >In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to >see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to >the community at large. > >I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say, >two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's >up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues, >-questions is the obvious one to join. > >Comments? >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > > Hi, I have some UNIX experience (mostly Solaris and Linux), and I wanted to toy with FreeBSD. I thought I could help with testing and documentation of tidbits/hacks, etc. However, I am not sure where I would go if this list is disbanded. The reason I chose this area to subscribe to was that I didn't want to plague the group with newbie questions. Unfortunately in other groups for other topics, some list members get rude. For example, in the jserv mailing list, the developers would chastise common questions and tell them to read some unavailable FAQ (they wanted to use FAQ-o-matic, but no one converted the original docs and the original docs were not available). Given prior bad experiences, I think perhaps maybe some of us were timid to ask questions of the newbie nature when approaching a new open source project. :-) If this is disbanded, I suggest putting out a weekly message re-directing users to new lists, and phase it out over a month. On the web page, note appropriate forums for questions of the newbie nature. - joaquin From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 21:30:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0291F16A4CF; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:30:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA3A43D31; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:30:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com (cpe-69-75-218-19.san.rr.com [69.75.218.19]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FC7101A98; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:30:05 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.COM To: Jeff Lewis Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:30:04 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> In-Reply-To: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412271330.05504@zaphod.softweyr.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: krinklyfig@spymac.com cc: sue@welearn.com.au cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org cc: core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:30:07 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 07:45, Jeff Lewis wrote: > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've pointed > > you to it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want this same > > question answered again next week, and they're not going to know to > > search the archives for this wonderful answer I've just given you. > > That's an even "better" problem to solve than simply answering your > > question, even if it doesn't solve your immediate problem. > > I concur with your reasoning here. Does this mean that you believe the > charter should be altered as opposed to disbanding the list? No, I think the original charter would serve newbies better than asking technical questions and receiving bad advice on the -newbies list. I'm all for keeping the newbies list as a place to learn about other's experiences with learning FreeBSD, and as a place to get general questions like 'how do I learn more about running a web server on FreeBSD.' What I don't want is to have an ongoing situation where questions get asked and answered POORLY, leading people to believe that FreeBSD is somehow broken. When Sue Blake was the list nanny, issues like this generally got handled. Sue hasn't been active for more than a year, and the quality of the interactions has dropped because of it. If the list is to survive, it needs another nanny (or a nanny group), to direct people to FAQ, the -questions list, or other resources when they veer outside the list charter and start needing technical help. > Would you be willing to join Joshua Tinnin in supporting such a change > by moderating the list, helping to determine when a question should go > to the -questions list, and attempting to help the newbies with their > issues? > > I KNOW that I am not asking you to do something simple. I recognize > the significance of this. But as I originally stated, modifying the > charter of this list without the support of folks like you and Joshua > is simply foolish, and would absolutely CREATE the very scenario that > Greg was trying to prevent, newbies getting wrong answers. I'd like to, but I can't. Between work and family and FreeBSD I'm already overbooked, I haven't had any real personal time in more than two years. > I am not qualified to know who COULD be qualified to answer these > questions either. At best, I can only express the desire to have a > place where my dumb questions are not only expected, but where > someone can actually see a little past the question and try to get > at the underlying cause of the original confusion. The cool part is, we don't need somebody who can answer questions, or even necessarily tell the user where to get them answered. What we really need is somebody to watch for threads that are veering off into non-newbies-list topics and redirect those. I don't know that it really requires official moderation, though we could do that if the list members don't respond appropriately to suggestions by the nanny(ies). -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 22:03:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E7516A4D3 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:03:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 107C343D45 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:03:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 22:03:12 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:03:11 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271330.05504@zaphod.softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200412271330.05504@zaphod.softweyr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters cc: sue@welearn.com.au cc: core@freebsd.org cc: Jeff Lewis Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:03:14 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 01:30 pm, Wes Peters wrote: > On Monday 27 December 2004 07:45, Jeff Lewis wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've > > > pointed you to it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want > > > this same question answered again next week, and they're not > > > going to know to search the archives for this wonderful answer > > > I've just given you. That's an even "better" problem to solve > > > than simply answering your question, even if it doesn't solve > > > your immediate problem. > > > > I concur with your reasoning here. Does this mean that you believe > > the charter should be altered as opposed to disbanding the list? > > No, I think the original charter would serve newbies better than > asking technical questions and receiving bad advice on the -newbies > list. I'm all for keeping the newbies list as a place to learn about > other's experiences with learning FreeBSD, and as a place to get > general questions like 'how do I learn more about running a web > server on FreeBSD.' > > What I don't want is to have an ongoing situation where questions get > asked and answered POORLY, leading people to believe that FreeBSD is > somehow broken. > > When Sue Blake was the list nanny, issues like this generally got > handled. Sue hasn't been active for more than a year, and the quality > of the interactions has dropped because of it. > > If the list is to survive, it needs another nanny (or a nanny group), > to direct people to FAQ, the -questions list, or other resources when > they veer outside the list charter and start needing technical help. I am curious about this. Did Sue ever encounter newbies who were intimidated about asking -questions, and, if so, how did she handle it? I realize that there is a certain personality to the lists, and the people on FreeBSD's lists are more courteous than most (at least in my experience), but how do you convince someone it's worth it to ignore the noise? Moreover, I've found that most people in such a situation don't want to ask the -questions list due to the traffic, although I suppose it's always possible to post to the list without joining it. > > Would you be willing to join Joshua Tinnin in supporting such a > > change by moderating the list, helping to determine when a question > > should go to the -questions list, and attempting to help the > > newbies with their issues? > > > > I KNOW that I am not asking you to do something simple. I recognize > > the significance of this. But as I originally stated, modifying the > > charter of this list without the support of folks like you and > > Joshua is simply foolish, and would absolutely CREATE the very > > scenario that Greg was trying to prevent, newbies getting wrong > > answers. > > I'd like to, but I can't. Between work and family and FreeBSD I'm > already overbooked, I haven't had any real personal time in more than > two years. > > > I am not qualified to know who COULD be qualified to answer these > > questions either. At best, I can only express the desire to have a > > place where my dumb questions are not only expected, but where > > someone can actually see a little past the question and try to get > > at the underlying cause of the original confusion. > > The cool part is, we don't need somebody who can answer questions, or > even necessarily tell the user where to get them answered. What we > really need is somebody to watch for threads that are veering off > into non-newbies-list topics and redirect those. > > I don't know that it really requires official moderation, though we > could do that if the list members don't respond appropriately to > suggestions by the nanny(ies). Well, I agree that this would likely be the best of both worlds: having moderation without having a moderator, per se, but it seems to me like the frequency of newbies asking for technical help on this list indicates a lack of clear communication of the group charter. I realize newbies are less inclined (in general) to read instructions, but perhaps this in itself is reason to make the charter more clear to people before they join. - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 02:50:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDD216A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:50:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95DF343D46; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:50:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com (cpe-69-75-218-19.san.rr.com [69.75.218.19]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D60B100497; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:50:55 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.COM To: Joshua Tinnin Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:50:54 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271330.05504@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412271850.54926@zaphod.softweyr.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:50:56 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 14:03, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Monday 27 December 2004 01:30 pm, Wes Peters > wrote: > > > > The cool part is, we don't need somebody who can answer questions, or > > even necessarily tell the user where to get them answered. What we > > really need is somebody to watch for threads that are veering off > > into non-newbies-list topics and redirect those. > > > > I don't know that it really requires official moderation, though we > > could do that if the list members don't respond appropriately to > > suggestions by the nanny(ies). > > Well, I agree that this would likely be the best of both worlds: having > moderation without having a moderator, per se, but it seems to me like > the frequency of newbies asking for technical help on this list > indicates a lack of clear communication of the group charter. I realize > newbies are less inclined (in general) to read instructions, but > perhaps this in itself is reason to make the charter more clear to > people before they join. One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of the newbies list charter and to have it appended to every message, as a list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie flyers" like to have a go at the text for this? This gentle reminder should inform them to seek help on technical questions on the -questions list, and refer to the newbies list charter via URL. *You* of all people should know where to find the official list charter. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 03:16:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFA016A4D2 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:16:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C128C43D53 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:16:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 03:16:28 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:16:27 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <200412271850.54926@zaphod.softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200412271850.54926@zaphod.softweyr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters cc: core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:16:29 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 06:50 pm, Wes Peters wrote: > On Monday 27 December 2004 14:03, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > On Monday 27 December 2004 01:30 pm, Wes Peters > > wrote: > > > The cool part is, we don't need somebody who can answer > > > questions, or even necessarily tell the user where to get them > > > answered. What we really need is somebody to watch for threads > > > that are veering off into non-newbies-list topics and redirect > > > those. > > > > > > I don't know that it really requires official moderation, though > > > we could do that if the list members don't respond appropriately > > > to suggestions by the nanny(ies). > > > > Well, I agree that this would likely be the best of both worlds: > > having moderation without having a moderator, per se, but it seems > > to me like the frequency of newbies asking for technical help on > > this list indicates a lack of clear communication of the group > > charter. I realize newbies are less inclined (in general) to read > > instructions, but perhaps this in itself is reason to make the > > charter more clear to people before they join. > > One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of the > newbies list charter and to have it appended to every message, as a > list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie flyers" like to > have a go at the text for this? This gentle reminder should inform > them to seek help on technical questions on the -questions list, and > refer to the newbies list charter via URL. How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical help or support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " > *You* of all people should know where to find the official list > charter. ;^) Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people ... http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 03:19:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA28716A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:19:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 666DB43D2D for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:19:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 03:19:38 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:19:37 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271850.54926@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412271919.38251.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters cc: core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:19:38 -0000 Ah, criminny .. On Monday 27 December 2004 07:16 pm, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical help > or support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " Heh ... well, it would be better if it said freebsd-newbies, not freebsd-questions ... - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 07:33:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE49516A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:33:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B3843D41; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:33:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com (cpe-69-75-218-19.san.rr.com [69.75.218.19]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4252C14077E5; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:33:53 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.COM To: Joshua Tinnin Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:33:52 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271850.54926@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412272333.53058@zaphod.softweyr.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:33:54 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 19:16, you wrote: > On Monday 27 December 2004 06:50 pm, Wes Peters > > > > One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of the > > newbies list charter and to have it appended to every message, as a > > list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie flyers" like to > > have a go at the text for this? This gentle reminder should inform > > them to seek help on technical questions on the -questions list, and > > refer to the newbies list charter via URL. > > How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical help or > support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " > > > *You* of all people should know where to find the official list > > charter. ;^) > > Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people ... > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#E >RESOURCES-CHARTERS Ah, sorry, I meant the inclusive "you" as in the previously referred-to "frequent newbie flyers". And perhaps another sentence or two describing what the newbies list IS for? But thanks for stepping up on this, I'm sure you'll come up with something good, communicate it to core@, and someone there will shepherd it over to postmaster. You see, I'm leaving on holiday tomorrow morn... -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 08:20:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D94616A4D1 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:20:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0B3743D4C for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:20:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 08:20:16 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: Wes Peters Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:20:15 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <200412272333.53058@zaphod.softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200412272333.53058@zaphod.softweyr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:20:17 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 11:33 pm, Wes Peters wrote: > On Monday 27 December 2004 19:16, you wrote: > > On Monday 27 December 2004 06:50 pm, Wes Peters > > > One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of > > > the newbies list charter and to have it appended to every > > > message, as a list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie > > > flyers" like to have a go at the text for this? This gentle > > > reminder should inform them to seek help on technical questions > > > on the -questions list, and refer to the newbies list charter via > > > URL. > > > > How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical > > help or support list. See: > > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " > > > > > *You* of all people should know where to find the official list > > > charter. ;^) > > > > Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people > > ... > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresource > >s.html#E RESOURCES-CHARTERS > > Ah, sorry, I meant the inclusive "you" as in the previously > referred-to "frequent newbie flyers". And perhaps another sentence > or two describing what the newbies list IS for? > > But thanks for stepping up on this, I'm sure you'll come up with > something good, communicate it to core@, and someone there will > shepherd it over to postmaster. You see, I'm leaving on holiday > tomorrow morn... I was going for the most brevity ... OK, then, ... hmmm ... "freebsd-questions is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " I dunno. This part: "help each other with non-technical issues" sounds not quite right, as people can answer broad technical questions here, like whether it's better to use a GUI interface for system administration. Am having trouble distilling a description down to one sentence. Maybe that's alright and I'm just overthinking it. Will send it out and see what you all think. - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 09:01:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C511316A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:01:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4615143D48; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:01:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228090107i9100rftsse>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:01:08 +0000 Message-ID: <41D120CD.1050706@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:01:01 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Tinnin References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <200412272333.53058@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:01:09 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote: >On Monday 27 December 2004 11:33 pm, Wes Peters >wrote: > > >>On Monday 27 December 2004 19:16, you wrote: >> >> >>>On Monday 27 December 2004 06:50 pm, Wes Peters >>> >>> >>>>One of my ideas is to come up with a short, succint version of >>>>the newbies list charter and to have it appended to every >>>>message, as a list signature. Would any of you "frequent newbie >>>>flyers" like to have a go at the text for this? This gentle >>>>reminder should inform them to seek help on technical questions >>>>on the -questions list, and refer to the newbies list charter via >>>>URL. >>>> >>>> >>>How about something like, "freebsd-questions is not a technical >>>help or support list. See: >>>http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " >>> >>> >>> >>>>*You* of all people should know where to find the official list >>>>charter. ;^) >>>> >>>> >>>Me, specifically? Well, yes, but I'm not sure why me, of all people >>>... >>> >>>http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresource >>>s.html#E RESOURCES-CHARTERS >>> >>> >>Ah, sorry, I meant the inclusive "you" as in the previously >>referred-to "frequent newbie flyers". And perhaps another sentence >>or two describing what the newbies list IS for? >> >>But thanks for stepping up on this, I'm sure you'll come up with >>something good, communicate it to core@, and someone there will >>shepherd it over to postmaster. You see, I'm leaving on holiday >>tomorrow morn... >> >> > >I was going for the most brevity ... OK, then, ... hmmm ... > >"freebsd-questions is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users >to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical >issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See: >http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " > >I dunno. This part: "help each other with non-technical issues" sounds >not quite right, as people can answer broad technical questions here, >like whether it's better to use a GUI interface for system >administration. Am having trouble distilling a description down to one >sentence. Maybe that's alright and I'm just overthinking it. Will send >it out and see what you all think. > > > Yea I understand why it doesn't make sense, oxymorons never do. You might also what to think about changing freebsd-questions to freebsd-newbies. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 09:49:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9765716A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:49:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from weller-fahy.com (pD9FFF67E.dip.t-dialin.net [217.255.246.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A86F43D31 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:49:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dave-lists-freebsd-newbies@weller-fahy.com) Received: (qmail 33588 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Dec 2004 09:49:00 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:49:00 +0101 From: "David J. Weller-Fahy" To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041228094838.GA32901@weller-fahy.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271916.28076.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <200412272333.53058@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> X-URL-Me: http://www.weller-fahy.com X-Accept-Language: en X-Location: Germany, Gangelt, Hof Grootfeld User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:49:03 -0000 * Joshua Tinnin [2004-12-28 09:20 +0100]: > "freebsd-questions is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users > to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical > issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See: > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " What about: Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. Most of that's from the charter. Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 10:12:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E070016A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:12:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E88443D45 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:12:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 10:12:21 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:12:20 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041228094838.GA32901@weller-fahy.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228094838.GA32901@weller-fahy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters cc: core@freebsd.org cc: "David J. Weller-Fahy" Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:12:22 -0000 On Tuesday 28 December 2004 01:48 am, "David J. Weller-Fahy" wrote: > * Joshua Tinnin [2004-12-28 09:20 +0100]: > > "freebsd-questions OK, once again that's supposed to be -newbies, but you knew that ... man, not proofreading my email ... > > is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users > > to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical > > issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See: > > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " > > What about: > > Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and > moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. > > Most of that's from the charter. Personally, I like that better than mine. I think that pretty much says everything. Maybe "technical support issues," although that might be redundant. One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's technically correct to use a comma before the last item in a series, that is archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to leave it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing ideas and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better to use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the other way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a mom who's an English teacher ... - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 10:46:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB9416A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:46:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from weller-fahy.com (pD9FFF67E.dip.t-dialin.net [217.255.246.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832AF43D46 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:46:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dave-lists-freebsd-newbies@weller-fahy.com) Received: (qmail 34562 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Dec 2004 10:46:05 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:46:05 +0101 From: "David J. Weller-Fahy" To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041228104543.GA34268@weller-fahy.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041228094838.GA32901@weller-fahy.com> <200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> X-URL-Me: http://www.weller-fahy.com X-Accept-Language: en X-Location: Germany, Gangelt, Hof Grootfeld User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:46:07 -0000 * Joshua Tinnin [2004-12-28 11:13 +0100]: > OK, once again that's supposed to be -newbies, but you knew that ... > man, not proofreading my email ... > > Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and > > moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. > > Personally, I like that better than mine. I think that pretty much > says everything. Maybe "technical support issues," although that might > be redundant. The only reason I didn't include the word 'support' is that has specific associations, one of which is the feeling that one is entitled to receive help. I didn't want to give that impression, as these lists are all voluntary. > One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's technically > correct to use a comma before the last item in a series, that is > archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to leave > it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing ideas > and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better to > use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the other > way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a mom > who's an English teacher ... No problem. ;] I've never known grammar that well, so the correction is appreciated. Here's the version with changes: Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas and moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 11:20:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A3F16A4CF for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:20:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1463343D3F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:20:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:20:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041228104543.GA34268@weller-fahy.com> References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net><200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com><20041228094838.GA32901@weller-fahy.com><200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041228104543.GA34268@weller-fahy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6217E9A7-58C2-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:19:47 +0100 To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:20:14 -0000 On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:45 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote: > Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas and > moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. The problem is that newbies tend to think that their technical issues are just "general problems" which they have because they are newbies. Newbies will still ask on freebsd-newbies because they think their problem doesn't qualify as a "specific technical issue". How about something like this: Please use this list to share your thoughts and experiences with other users new to FreeBSD. Send all your questions asking for support and problem solving to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org and not to this list. Chris From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 11:29:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F18016A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:29:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A865143D5F; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:29:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228112926i9100rfinne>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:29:28 +0000 Message-ID: <41D14393.7080803@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:29:23 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Tinnin References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041228094838.GA32901@weller-fahy.com> <200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: "David J. Weller-Fahy" Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:29:29 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote: >On Tuesday 28 December 2004 01:48 am, "David J. Weller-Fahy" > wrote: > > >>* Joshua Tinnin [2004-12-28 09:20 +0100]: >> >> >>>"freebsd-questions >>> >>> > >OK, once again that's supposed to be -newbies, but you knew that ... >man, not proofreading my email ... > > > >>>is a general discussion forum for new FreeBSD users >>>to share their experiences and to help each other with non-technical >>>issues. It is not a technical help or support list. See: >>>http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ " >>> >>> >>What about: >> >>Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas, and >>moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. >> >>Most of that's from the charter. >> >> > >Personally, I like that better than mine. I think that pretty much says >everything. Maybe "technical support issues," although that might be >redundant. One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's >technically correct to use a comma before the last item in a series, >that is archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to >leave it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing >ideas and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better >to use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the >other way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a >mom who's an English teacher ... > >- jt > > My college English teacher said it was only ok for news papers to leave it off so they could save space. >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 11:41:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A905316A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:41:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from natpreptil.rzone.de (natpreptil.rzone.de [81.169.145.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F06543D2F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:41:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from buebo@buebo.de) Received: from reverse-82-141-59-164.dialin.kamp-dsl.de (reverse-82-141-59-164.dialin.kamp-dsl.de [82.141.59.164]) by post.webmailer.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBSBfTP5000204 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:41:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from 192.168.0.101 by golden-apple.ath.cx with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.20) id 1CjFjD-BN3-00 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:41:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:41:27 +0100 From: "Felix 'buebo' Kakrow" To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20041228114126.GA17111@gwen.pulp-friction.local> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> X-PGP-Key: http://www.buebo.de/pub_key.asc X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: B615 F83E D46F 8C56 AE8E AC25 8772 8994 FFB4 FCFB X-Jah-Luv: Always, Brother! User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:41:32 -0000 --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am 23.12.04 11:19 schrieb Charles Oppermann : > Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the > freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies > list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick aro= und > and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a cav= eat > that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. I totaly agree with that. Strikes me as the best option to have basicly two technical oriented list. One for Newbies with kind of FreeBSD-For-The-Inexperienced flavour and the down and dirty questions@ for the experienced user. I think this will create a much friendlier athmosphere, than having newbie-questions asked at questions@. Greetings, Felix --=20 "I should have been a plumber." -- Albert Einstein --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Encrypt Your Mail With GnuPG! iD8DBQFB0UZkh3KJlP+0/PsRAjNHAJ4lmPiuSCzGKYwACbdkw8oV8yjq7ACeNzyO wLWQQ9jZJ42fu7/eFB0Jn0U= =rKrk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5-- From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 11:44:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81A016A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:44:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.mail.ru (mx1.mail.ru [194.67.23.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECC343D48 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:44:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deralsem@inbox.ru) Received: from [81.26.152.28] (port=9560 helo=dev-project) by mx1.mail.ru with esmtp id 1CjFlk-000PW3-00 for FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:44:04 +0300 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:46:56 +0300 From: DerAlSem X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.2.4 Rush) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Organization: Nowhere Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1612318897.20041228144656@inbox.ru> To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20041228114126.GA17111@gwen.pulp-friction.local> References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> <20041228114126.GA17111@gwen.pulp-friction.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re[2]: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: DerAlSem List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:44:18 -0000 Hello Felix, Tuesday, December 28, 2004, 2:41:27 PM, you wrote: > Am 23.12.04 11:19 schrieb Charles Oppermann : >> Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the >> freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies >> list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick around >> and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a caveat >> that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. > I totaly agree with that. Strikes me as the best option to have basicly > two technical oriented list. One for Newbies with kind of > FreeBSD-For-The-Inexperienced flavour and the down and dirty questions@ > for the experienced user. > I think this will create a much friendlier athmosphere, than having > newbie-questions asked at questions@. Agreed. I was subscribed to questions, but there's large traffice there. So, i stayed only at newbies. But it's a bit not enough. And questions is too much. ;-) -- Best regards, DerAlSem mailto:deralsem@inbox.ru From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 12:01:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E7F16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:01:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44BA43D5E; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:01:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iBSC1k1o071181; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:01:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id iBSC1kiC071180; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:01:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:01:46 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: FreeBSD-Newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , FreeBSD-Newbies@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Core Team Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i cc: FreeBSD Core Team Subject: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:01:53 -0000 FreeBSD-Newbies was created at a time when FreeBSD had only been home to experienced Unix people with a strong Old Internet community culture. Occasionally new people had come in and pretty quickly adjusted to the culture (or left), but until that time we had been almost entirely the Venerable Hacker type. But we had a sudden new influx of people who had no Internet or Open Source Community culture, and the rate was increasing. Some place was needed for them to talk together about how to culturally integrate with FreeBSD, and for general chatter of a type that was banned on other lists. We had a list called FreeBSD-Chat which was the kind of thing but it was traditionally the place for FreeBSD-Hackers members to retreat to, continuing conversations that had started in the other list. They didn't want the mood to change, so we needed to set up something like a FreeBSD-Newbies-Chat. It could also be a place to help with learning to use the mailing lists correctly, including the importance of sticking to list charters. Due to some vague technical or aesthetic limitations, it could not be called a triple name and had to be shortened from the most obvious name to FreeBSD-Newbies, therefore it had to have a strong charter to remind people that it is for chat only, not questions, plus a periodic reminder notice to the list (the FAK). Yes, leaving the name like that was a big mistake. I told you so. From time to time people have asked for a place for new users to ask for technical help. That place is, and has always been, FreeBSD-Questions. If you want a separate group for that, then you have an issue that has nothing to do with the present discussion. If there ever were a mailing list for newbie tech support, it would NOT be this one, it would NOT be this one, do I make myself clear? A new mailing list would have to be created for the purpose, with a different name as well as a different list charter. But that's not the topic of this email. I'm talking only about the social chat list, FreeBSD-Newbies, that catered for a sudden influx of newbies last century when newbies were very rare in our community and our community wasn't sufficiently prepared to understand their social needs. That was many years ago now. Newbies are no longer an extremely small bunch of odd people coming in and not knowing how we behave. They are a large active and vital part of our community. The time for an enclave to protect and encourage their social interactions in a separate environment is over. Newbies are much more accepted on all the other mailing lists, indeed their presence is now expected. The FreeBSD-Newbies list has served its purpose, and if thrashed further will become a liability. Therefore I propose to disband the FreeBSD-Newbies list by late January 2005. We might make it read-only from 21st to 30th so that we can issue a final notice to those who don't read it often (like me). Now what are you going to do? I suggest you take your place in the mainstream community as you deserve to do. Let them know you're a newbie when you write, and they'll treat you gently. Be sure to read and agree to the List Charter of each mailing list before you start using it. And remember, there's no free lunch. You should consider helping other newbies on FreeBSD-Questions when you feel competent to do so, and your new user insights are highly valued by the FreeBSD-Doc documentation group, so please consider helping out with proof reading and testing docs. The only place that chatter is allowed is FreeBSD-Chat, and I expect you're all already subscribed to the read-only FreeBSD-Announce list. Thanks to the FreeBSD Wise Ones who respected this list for what it was, a place for newbies to relax, for so many years. Thanks to counteless generations of newbies who helped other newbies to feel welcome and find their way around the main mailing lists. And to the current newbies, welcome to FreeBSD, you won't be sorry you joined us, and nor will we. Happy coming-of-age! -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 12:04:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3706F16A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:04:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from weller-fahy.com (pD9FFF67E.dip.t-dialin.net [217.255.246.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157A243D1F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:04:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dave-lists-freebsd-newbies@weller-fahy.com) Received: (qmail 35924 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Dec 2004 12:04:54 -0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:04:54 +0100 From: "David J. Weller-Fahy" To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041228120432.GA34657@weller-fahy.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <20041228104543.GA34268@weller-fahy.com> <6217E9A7-58C2-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6217E9A7-58C2-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> X-URL-Me: http://www.weller-fahy.com X-Accept-Language: en X-Location: Germany, Gangelt, Hof Grootfeld User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:04:57 -0000 * Chris Zumbrunn [2004-12-28 12:20 +0100]: > On Dec 28, 2004, at 11:45 AM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote: > >Please use this list for general problem solving, sharing ideas and > >moral support. Take specific technical issues to freebsd-questions. > > The problem is that newbies tend to think that their technical issues > are just "general problems" which they have because they are newbies. > Newbies will still ask on freebsd-newbies because they think their > problem doesn't qualify as a "specific technical issue". True, I hadn't thought of that. Hrm. > How about something like this: > > Please use this list to share your thoughts and experiences with other > users new to FreeBSD. Send all your questions asking for support and > problem solving to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org and not to this list. I like the wording, but was trying to keep it at two lines. Let me take a try at rewording: Please share your thoughts/experiences with other new FreeBSD users here. Send support or problem solving questions to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. I think that conveys all needed information without being too long. Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 13:31:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5628216A4D1 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:31:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2DE543D49 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:31:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 13:31:18 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:31:17 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412280531.17688.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: Sue Blake Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:31:19 -0000 On Tuesday 28 December 2004 04:01 am, Sue Blake wrote: > FreeBSD-Newbies was created at a time when FreeBSD had only been home > to experienced Unix people with a strong Old Internet community culture. > Occasionally new people had come in and pretty quickly adjusted to > the culture (or left), but until that time we had been almost > entirely the Venerable Hacker type. But we had a sudden new influx > of people who had no Internet or Open Source Community culture, > and the rate was increasing. Some place was needed for them to > talk together about how to culturally integrate with FreeBSD, > and for general chatter of a type that was banned on other lists. > > We had a list called FreeBSD-Chat which was the kind of thing > but it was traditionally the place for FreeBSD-Hackers members > to retreat to, continuing conversations that had started in the > other list. They didn't want the mood to change, so we needed > to set up something like a FreeBSD-Newbies-Chat. It could also > be a place to help with learning to use the mailing lists > correctly, including the importance of sticking to list charters. > > Due to some vague technical or aesthetic limitations, it could not be > called a triple name and had to be shortened from the most obvious > name to FreeBSD-Newbies, therefore it had to have a strong charter to > remind people that it is for chat only, not questions, plus a > periodic reminder notice to the list (the FAK). Yes, leaving the > name like that was a big mistake. I told you so. > > From time to time people have asked for a place for new users to > ask for technical help. That place is, and has always been, > FreeBSD-Questions. If you want a separate group for that, then you > have an issue that has nothing to do with the present discussion. > If there ever were a mailing list for newbie tech support, it would > NOT be this one, it would NOT be this one, do I make myself clear? > A new mailing list would have to be created for the purpose, with a > different name as well as a different list charter. But that's not > the topic of this email. I'm talking only about the social chat > list, FreeBSD-Newbies, that catered for a sudden influx of newbies > last century when newbies were very rare in our community and our > community wasn't sufficiently prepared to understand their social > needs. > > That was many years ago now. Newbies are no longer an extremely > small bunch of odd people coming in and not knowing how we behave. > They are a large active and vital part of our community. The > time for an enclave to protect and encourage their social > interactions in a separate environment is over. Newbies are > much more accepted on all the other mailing lists, indeed their > presence is now expected. > > The FreeBSD-Newbies list has served its purpose, and if thrashed > further will become a liability. Therefore I propose to > disband the FreeBSD-Newbies list by late January 2005. > We might make it read-only from 21st to 30th so that we can > issue a final notice to those who don't read it often (like me). > > Now what are you going to do? I suggest you take your place in the > mainstream community as you deserve to do. Let them know you're a > newbie when you write, and they'll treat you gently. Be sure to > read and agree to the List Charter of each mailing list before you > start using it. And remember, there's no free lunch. You should > consider helping other newbies on FreeBSD-Questions when you feel > competent to do so, and your new user insights are highly valued by > the FreeBSD-Doc documentation group, so please consider helping out > with proof reading and testing docs. The only place that chatter > is allowed is FreeBSD-Chat, and I expect you're all already > subscribed to the read-only FreeBSD-Announce list. > > Thanks to the FreeBSD Wise Ones who respected this list for what > it was, a place for newbies to relax, for so many years. Thanks to > counteless generations of newbies who helped other newbies to > feel welcome and find their way around the main mailing lists. > And to the current newbies, welcome to FreeBSD, you won't > be sorry you joined us, and nor will we. Happy coming-of-age! What was the point of all that discussion, or asking the question in the first place, then, if this is the outcome? I'm sorry, but, can the people on this list not make any impact on the decision, or has it always been up to one person, and if so, why were we asked? And why is there so much emphasis on creating a new list if the charter changes? I don't quite see the logic in that. I'm getting the sense, however, that my questions are rhetorical and it won't make any difference. Oh well. - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 13:36:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24C916A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:36:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F01043D1D for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:36:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:36:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041228120432.GA34657@weller-fahy.com> References: <20041228104543.GA34268@weller-fahy.com><6217E9A7-58C2-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041228120432.GA34657@weller-fahy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <85AF28D4-58D5-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:36:47 +0100 To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:36:49 -0000 On Dec 28, 2004, at 1:04 PM, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote: > Please share your thoughts/experiences with other new FreeBSD users > here. > Send support or problem solving questions to > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. > > I think that conveys all needed information without being too long. Yes! Chris From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 13:52:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE9316A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:52:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9A343D2F; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:52:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228135250i9100rfqlhe>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:52:51 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1652E.3020402@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:52:46 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:52:52 -0000 Sue Blake wrote: >FreeBSD-Newbies was created at a time when FreeBSD had only been home >to experienced Unix people with a strong Old Internet community culture. >Occasionally new people had come in and pretty quickly adjusted to >the culture (or left), but until that time we had been almost >entirely the Venerable Hacker type. But we had a sudden new influx >of people who had no Internet or Open Source Community culture, >and the rate was increasing. Some place was needed for them to >talk together about how to culturally integrate with FreeBSD, >and for general chatter of a type that was banned on other lists. > >We had a list called FreeBSD-Chat which was the kind of thing >but it was traditionally the place for FreeBSD-Hackers members >to retreat to, continuing conversations that had started in the >other list. They didn't want the mood to change, so we needed >to set up something like a FreeBSD-Newbies-Chat. It could also >be a place to help with learning to use the mailing lists >correctly, including the importance of sticking to list charters. > >Due to some vague technical or aesthetic limitations, it could not be >called a triple name and had to be shortened from the most obvious >name to FreeBSD-Newbies, therefore it had to have a strong charter to >remind people that it is for chat only, not questions, plus a >periodic reminder notice to the list (the FAK). Yes, leaving the >name like that was a big mistake. I told you so. > > From time to time people have asked for a place for new users to >ask for technical help. That place is, and has always been, >FreeBSD-Questions. If you want a separate group for that, then you >have an issue that has nothing to do with the present discussion. >If there ever were a mailing list for newbie tech support, it would >NOT be this one, it would NOT be this one, do I make myself clear? >A new mailing list would have to be created for the purpose, with a >different name as well as a different list charter. But that's not >the topic of this email. I'm talking only about the social chat >list, FreeBSD-Newbies, that catered for a sudden influx of newbies >last century when newbies were very rare in our community and our >community wasn't sufficiently prepared to understand their social >needs. > >That was many years ago now. Newbies are no longer an extremely >small bunch of odd people coming in and not knowing how we behave. >They are a large active and vital part of our community. The >time for an enclave to protect and encourage their social >interactions in a separate environment is over. Newbies are >much more accepted on all the other mailing lists, indeed their >presence is now expected. > >The FreeBSD-Newbies list has served its purpose, and if thrashed >further will become a liability. Therefore I propose to >disband the FreeBSD-Newbies list by late January 2005. >We might make it read-only from 21st to 30th so that we can >issue a final notice to those who don't read it often (like me). > >Now what are you going to do? I suggest you take your place in the >mainstream community as you deserve to do. Let them know you're a >newbie when you write, and they'll treat you gently. Be sure to >read and agree to the List Charter of each mailing list before you >start using it. And remember, there's no free lunch. You should >consider helping other newbies on FreeBSD-Questions when you feel >competent to do so, and your new user insights are highly valued by >the FreeBSD-Doc documentation group, so please consider helping out >with proof reading and testing docs. The only place that chatter >is allowed is FreeBSD-Chat, and I expect you're all already >subscribed to the read-only FreeBSD-Announce list. > >Thanks to the FreeBSD Wise Ones who respected this list for what >it was, a place for newbies to relax, for so many years. Thanks to >counteless generations of newbies who helped other newbies to >feel welcome and find their way around the main mailing lists. >And to the current newbies, welcome to FreeBSD, you won't >be sorry you joined us, and nor will we. Happy coming-of-age! > > > Thats fine sue but what are we going to do with the new people that are too overwhelmed, intimidated, or jilted (from past experiences) to post to the questions mailing list? From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 14:13:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBFC16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:13:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F2843D2D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:13:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228141339i9100rgfkme>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:13:40 +0000 Message-ID: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:13:35 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Tinnin References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> <200412280531.17688.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412280531.17688.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: Sue Blake Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:13:41 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > >What was the point of all that discussion, or asking the question in >the first place, then, if this is the outcome? I'm sorry, but, can the >people on this list not make any impact on the decision, or has it >always been up to one person, and if so, why were we asked? And why is >there so much emphasis on creating a new list if the charter changes? >I don't quite see the logic in that. > >I'm getting the sense, however, that my questions are rhetorical and >it won't make any difference. Oh well. > >- jt > > Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice is unheard... From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 14:30:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9093016A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:30:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 99E1243D41 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:30:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:30:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <41D1652E.3020402@nbritton.org> References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> <41D1652E.3020402@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0AA78600-58DD-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:30:37 +0100 To: FreeBSD-Newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:30:40 -0000 On Dec 28, 2004, at 2:52 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Thats fine sue but what are we going to do with the new people that > are too overwhelmed, intimidated, or jilted (from past experiences) to > post to the questions mailing list? Isn't the main reason why new users are intimidated to ask questions on freebsd-questions because of the very existence of freebsd-newbies? Because freebsd-newbies exists, the newbies feel that that's where they belong. For the future new users, that will never have heard that freebsd-newbies ever existed, it will be natural to ask questions on freebsd-questions. Instead they will be intimidated to discuss "specific technical issue" on freebsd-hackers ;-) Chris From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 14:52:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD5516A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:52:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ha-smtp1.tiscali.nl (smtp-b2c.tiscali.nl [195.241.80.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B135D43D1F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:52:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freeknossin@tiscali.nl) Received: from edsger (195-241-9-180-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl [195.241.9.180]) by ha-smtp1.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550658DC026 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:52:53 +0100 (CET) From: "Freek Nossin" To: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:53:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> Thread-Index: AcTs1RziUHLZSm/qREuHLirrbRh0ygAFQsGQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20041228145253.550658DC026@ha-smtp1.tiscali.nl> Subject: RE: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:52:55 -0000 From time to time people have asked for a place for new users to ask for technical help. That place is, and has always been, FreeBSD-Questions. If you want a separate group for that, then you have an issue that has nothing to do with the present discussion. If there ever were a mailing list for newbie tech support, it would NOT be this one, it would NOT be this one, do I make myself clear? A new mailing list would have to be created for the purpose, with a different name as well as a different list charter. I do not see the problem in keeping this list. First you tell us that the original purpose of this list is not of this time anymore. So IF this list still had that purpose as its right to exist, in THAT case the list should be removed (I agree with that). But that isn't the case, obviously. The list is now used by people who don't want to post in the -questions mailing list for various reasons. Now you tell us that there must start a new mailing list for questions that. But why? This mailing list exists already and its name that used to be wrongly chosen (with the old purpose), now DOES cover the idea of the list. I do think that people that start with freebsd should have a place where they can ask "stupid" questions, separate from -questions. There are a number of reasons to do that, but in the past few days they've been summed up a number of times, so I won't bother you all with that. If this list must close for some reason and there is room for a "newbie corner", than I would suggest to create a -questions and a -advanced, or something like that. Ed From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 14:56:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F00316A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:56:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44E443D53 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:56:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041228145608i92002bhj7e>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:56:27 +0000 Message-ID: <41D17404.8070508@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:56:04 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> <41D1652E.3020402@nbritton.org> <0AA78600-58DD-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> In-Reply-To: <0AA78600-58DD-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:56:28 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Dec 28, 2004, at 2:52 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> Thats fine sue but what are we going to do with the new people that >> are too overwhelmed, intimidated, or jilted (from past experiences) >> to post to the questions mailing list? > > > Isn't the main reason why new users are intimidated to ask questions > on freebsd-questions because of the very existence of freebsd-newbies? > Because freebsd-newbies exists, the newbies feel that that's where > they belong. For the future new users, that will never have heard that > freebsd-newbies ever existed, it will be natural to ask questions on > freebsd-questions. Instead they will be intimidated to discuss > "specific technical issue" on freebsd-hackers ;-) > Yea I see your point but there's still the ones that feel overwhelmed by the volume of traffic on the questions list and to a lesser extent the jilted ones from being told to RTFM on linux type lists From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 15:35:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2860816A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:35:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C839243D54 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:35:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228153458i9100rfrfbe>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:35:04 +0000 Message-ID: <41D17D1E.60201@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:34:54 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freek Nossin References: <20041228145253.550658DC026@ha-smtp1.tiscali.nl> In-Reply-To: <20041228145253.550658DC026@ha-smtp1.tiscali.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:35:05 -0000 Freek Nossin wrote: > > > From time to time people have asked for a place for new users to >ask for technical help. That place is, and has always been, >FreeBSD-Questions. If you want a separate group for that, then you >have an issue that has nothing to do with the present discussion. >If there ever were a mailing list for newbie tech support, it would >NOT be this one, it would NOT be this one, do I make myself clear? >A new mailing list would have to be created for the purpose, with a >different name as well as a different list charter. > > > >I do not see the problem in keeping this list. >First you tell us that the original purpose of this list is not of this time >anymore. So IF this list still had that purpose as its right to exist, in >THAT case the list should be removed (I agree with that). > >But that isn't the case, obviously. The list is now used by people who don't >want to post in the -questions mailing list for various reasons. Now you >tell us that there must start a new mailing list for questions that. But >why? This mailing list exists already and its name that used to be wrongly >chosen (with the old purpose), now DOES cover the idea of the list. > >I do think that people that start with freebsd should have a place where >they can ask "stupid" questions, separate from -questions. There are a >number of reasons to do that, but in the past few days they've been summed >up a number of times, so I won't bother you all with that. > >If this list must close for some reason and there is room for a "newbie >corner", than I would suggest to create a -questions and a -advanced, or >something like that. > > > >Ed > > > > Ok, I have a solution to the problems at hand. Delete this list and "charter" then start a new list named freebsd-newbies and make up a new "charter" with the inclusion of basic newbie help questions. I see this as the only real solution to this problem as every one here seems to get all bent out of shape when you don't follow a charter, rule, or some other obscure thing so lets just skirt around the issue and use this loop hole so we can have are calk and eat it to. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 15:36:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F202116A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:36:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD2E43D5D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:36:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBSFYTER083755; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:34:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:34:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041228.083428.05622618.imp@bsdimp.com> To: freebsd@nbritton.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> <200412280531.17688.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: krinklyfig@spymac.com cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: sue@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:36:22 -0000 In message: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> Nikolas Britton writes: : Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice is : unheard... Clearly you have no idea about how core works. I've read every single message in this thread, but have thought it better to let it run its coarse to see what the consensus of the community was. That's clearly listening to the voices of all those concerned. Warner From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 15:41:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2F316A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:41:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A514B43D31; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:41:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a005.otenet.gr [212.205.215.5]) iBSFfYYr026654; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:41:40 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBSFfGQE049635; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:41:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBSFelIm049223; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:40:47 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:40:47 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Joshua Tinnin Message-ID: <20041228154047.GA29577@gothmog.gr> References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271330.05504@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: sue@welearn.com.au cc: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: Jeff Lewis cc: core@freebsd.org cc: grog@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:41:51 -0000 On 2004-12-27 14:03, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > I realize that there is a certain personality to the lists, and the > people on FreeBSD's lists are more courteous than most (at least in my > experience), but how do you convince someone it's worth it to ignore > the noise? Moreover, I've found that most people in such a situation > don't want to ask the -questions list due to the traffic, although I > suppose it's always possible to post to the list without joining it. The most important detail is the one you list near the end of this paragraph. It is not obligatory to _subscribe_ to the freebsd-questions list to post a question there :-) There are no traffic problems when you just post a few messages in a single thread. I know that people are reluctant to post to -questions. I just don't know why yet, but this is something that, in my opinion, _can_ be helped by the presence of the -newbies list. My relatively aggressive PR in favor of FreeBSD in the Linux companies I hang out with, has started to bear fruit. Many people here in Patras have now heard about FreeBSD. Some of them have also tried to use it for real work. Most of them seem very reluctant to post to the -questions list though. I have had a few conversations with those who don't post to mailing lists and tried to discuss this reluctancy they seem to have. One of the major causes of questions that remain unanswered is the fear of "asking stupid things". Which is silly, but that's the way the guys I've talked with think. When I point out to them that, in fact, "there is no stupid question" and that they should do at least the following (in this order): - Look at the existing FreeBSD documentation. - Ask me for pointers to the existing documentation. - Look at the documentation again. - Search Google. - Search the -questions archives. - Post to -questions if all else fails. They always feel thankful for at least having a clear 6-step plan for troubleshooting. THIS is what a newbie needs most of the time. Not the real details of setting up a firewall with PF or IPFILTER, not all the gory details of IP routing and network address translation, not even the delicate instructions for editing `inetd.conf' or even `rc.conf'. Most of the time, the newbies I've had to deal with have questions that they don't know what to do about. All they need is a pointer towards the docs or just a friendly pat in the back and a couple of kind words: "Oh, that's ok. You should read the manpage of `inetd.conf'. If you need more help with that, post to -questions, since I haven't ever tinkered with FOOBAR services myself". I think that -newbies should not provide technical answers, detailed and fancy as -questions. But it may make a huge difference, when people don't know what to do about some problem they have, by providing exactly this sort of guidance: a mini summary of what can and should be done. The rest of the time, we can brag about our accomplishments as usual (which, admittedly, happens very rarely these days) :-) - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 15:52:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DC716A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:52:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1D843D46; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:52:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228155252i9100rgd6ke>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:52:53 +0000 Message-ID: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:52:48 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> <200412280531.17688.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> <20041228.083428.05622618.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228.083428.05622618.imp@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: krinklyfig@spymac.com cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: sue@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:52:54 -0000 M. Warner Losh wrote: >In message: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> > Nikolas Britton writes: >: Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice is >: unheard... > >Clearly you have no idea about how core works. I've read every single >message in this thread, but have thought it better to let it run its >coarse to see what the consensus of the community was. That's clearly >listening to the voices of all those concerned. > >Warner > > > I was generalizing. but now that I got your ear what is the core team doing about PR and Martketing, and why is the "Public Relations & Corporate Liaison" seat open? see the "FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?" and freebsd foundation threads on -questions for more info. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 16:03:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF6B16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:03:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F4043D48; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:03:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBSG0HTq084066; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:00:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:00:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041228.090017.106033285.imp@bsdimp.com> To: freebsd@nbritton.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> References: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> <20041228.083428.05622618.imp@bsdimp.com> <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: krinklyfig@spymac.com cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: sue@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:03:39 -0000 In message: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> Nikolas Britton writes: : M. Warner Losh wrote: : : >In message: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> : > Nikolas Britton writes: : >: Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice is : >: unheard... : > : >Clearly you have no idea about how core works. I've read every single : >message in this thread, but have thought it better to let it run its : >coarse to see what the consensus of the community was. That's clearly : >listening to the voices of all those concerned. : > : >Warner : > : > : > : I was generalizing. but now that I got your ear what is the core team : doing about PR and Martketing, and why is the "Public Relations & : Corporate Liaison" seat open? see the "FreeBSD's Visual Identity: : Outdated?" and freebsd foundation threads on -questions for more info. We are well aware of the issues here, and have talked about them in some depth. We'd planned on launching our efforts to fix the problems, if any truly exist, after the first of the year when people are back from their holidays. Also, there's never been a PR seat, so to complain that it is open is like complaining that the village idiot seat is open... That critism is unwarranted. In the past, PR has been done by the cdrom companies, but their monitary incentives for doing that is now way down since cdrom sales have dropped so much over the years. The FreeBSD Foundation is an independent entity, over which core has no control. Warner From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 16:31:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E83E16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:31:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8DCE43D45; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:31:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228163153i9100rfspne>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:31:54 +0000 Message-ID: <41D18A75.7000202@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:31:49 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> <20041228.083428.05622618.imp@bsdimp.com> <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> <20041228.090017.106033285.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228.090017.106033285.imp@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: krinklyfig@spymac.com cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: sue@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:31:55 -0000 M. Warner Losh wrote: >In message: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> > Nikolas Britton writes: >: M. Warner Losh wrote: >: >: >In message: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> >: > Nikolas Britton writes: >: >: Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice is >: >: unheard... >: > >: >Clearly you have no idea about how core works. I've read every single >: >message in this thread, but have thought it better to let it run its >: >coarse to see what the consensus of the community was. That's clearly >: >listening to the voices of all those concerned. >: > >: >Warner >: > >: > >: > >: I was generalizing. but now that I got your ear what is the core team >: doing about PR and Martketing, and why is the "Public Relations & >: Corporate Liaison" seat open? see the "FreeBSD's Visual Identity: >: Outdated?" and freebsd foundation threads on -questions for more info. > >We are well aware of the issues here, and have talked about them in >some depth. We'd planned on launching our efforts to fix the >problems, if any truly exist, after the first of the year when people >are back from their holidays. > Thats good to know, sounds like some progress... keep us informed and I'm willing to help if needed. > Also, there's never been a PR seat, so >to complain that it is open is like complaining that the village idiot >seat is open... That critism is unwarranted. > Ok (sorry), then there is the first thing to fix, delete it from this page: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/staff-who.html >In the past, PR has >been done by the cdrom companies, but their monitary incentives for >doing that is now way down since cdrom sales have dropped so much over >the years. The FreeBSD Foundation is an independent entity, over >which core has no control. > >Warner > > > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 20:59:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B464D16A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:59:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from safeco.hostingservice.net (safeco.hostingservice.net [209.150.128.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4981D43D46 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:59:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from adam@jamradar.com) Received: from PANASONIULSWMR (131.sub-166-153-179.myvzw.com [166.153.179.131])iBSKxK324732 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:59:20 -0600 Message-ID: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> From: "Adam" To: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:59:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Shared Hosting Webserver X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:59:23 -0000 Does anyone have any configuration files or install CD's that will = install a commercial grade shared webserver for hosting peoples websites? From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 21:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F82816A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:25:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from net.netophilia.net (ns.netophilia.net [66.96.216.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D4F43D4C for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:25:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@netophilia.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.netophilia.net [127.0.0.1]) by net.netophilia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DDE1496F; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from net.netophilia.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (net.netophilia.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05137-03; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by net.netophilia.net (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 4AFFD1496C; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:25:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:25:08 -0500 From: Dan Kilbourne To: Adam Message-ID: <20041228212508.GA4911@netophilia.net> References: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> Organization: netophilia.net Visit: http://netophilia.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netophilia.net cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shared Hosting Webserver X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:25:10 -0000 Adam extolled: > Does anyone have any configuration files or install CD's that will install a commercial grade shared webserver for hosting peoples websites? Hmmm...what do you mean by "commercial grade"? Bloated, closed-source, and not supported well? I am assuming you mean "commercial quality," as in "I want to have a real kickass product to make lots of money off of, but not have to pay a dime for it." You can do all that stuff yourself with some open-source tools + knowledge. If you do not have the knowledge or time to do this yourself, you may wish to look into some commercial products, such as cPanel (http://www.cpanel.net) or Plesk (http://www.sw-soft.com/en/products/plesk/) -- ___ Dan From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 21:27:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55F216A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:27:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B6A43D31 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:27:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041228212753i92002b678e>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:27:58 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1CFD5.5070909@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:27:49 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam References: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> In-Reply-To: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shared Hosting Webserver X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:27:59 -0000 Adam wrote: >Does anyone have any configuration files or install CD's that will install a commercial grade shared webserver for hosting peoples websites? > > You mean like ensim? http://www.ensim.com/index.html Apache will do everything you ask and more, the only trick is you have to know how do set it up. as for commercial products to do what you want the only thing I know of is ensim and that is Linux only, most of them will be linux only aswell. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 21:50:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24EB16A4D3 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:50:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jail.idea-anvil.net (idea-anvil.net [63.226.12.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F2743D48 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:50:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@idea-anvil.net) Received: from mail.Idea-Anvil.net (vaio [10.0.0.99]) by jail.idea-anvil.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBSLowRl076371 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:50:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from james@idea-anvil.net) From: James Jhai To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:50:41 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> In-Reply-To: <007201c4ed20$1a1de640$83b399a6@PANASONIULSWMR> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412281450.42086.james@idea-anvil.net> Subject: Re: Shared Hosting Webserver X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:50:45 -0000 On Tuesday 28 December 2004 01:59 pm, Adam wrote: > Does anyone have any configuration files or install CD's that will install > a commercial grade shared webserver for hosting peoples websites? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Do some reading in the Apache docs on the topic of virtual hosts. This will allow you to setup apache to server a different /root-base for each domain name. So if you setup 3 domains http://srvr1.org http://srvr2.net http://srvr3.com each connection to your apache server would server a different page to them and they wouldn't need to use the http://srvs.org/~username/ -- - James From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 08:32:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6A816A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:32:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asclepius.uwa.edu.au (asclepius3.uwa.edu.au [130.95.128.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F47943D45 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:32:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from zanchey@mussel.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au) Received: from asclepius.kas (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asclepius.uwa.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 113AB184526 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:30 +0800 (WST) Received: from asclepius (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asclepius.prekas (Postfix) with SMTP id 031BB18444A for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:30 +0800 (WST) X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.13.9 (UWA) Received: from mooneye.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (mooneye.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au [130.95.13.9]) by asclepius.input (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB8B183C0A for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:29 +0800 (WST) Received: by mooneye.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Postfix, from userid 801) id 29CC217F17; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:29 +0800 (WST) Received: from mussel (mussel.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au [130.95.13.18]) by mooneye.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A7417E2C; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:28 +0800 (WST) Received: from zanchey (helo=localhost) by mussel with local-esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CjZFs-0005bw-00; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:28 +0800 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:32:28 +0800 (WST) From: David Adam To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41D14393.7080803@nbritton.org> Message-ID: References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412280020.16012.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <200412280212.20958.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <41D14393.7080803@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: David Adam X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (188/041227) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 290904] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [02-08-04] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:32:44 -0000 On Tue, 28 Dec 2004, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >redundant. One nitpicky thing - although punctuation rules say it's > >technically correct to use a comma before the last item in a series, > >that is archaic usage, and the most commonly accepted modern rule is to > >leave it off. So, it would be better as: "... problem solving, sharing > >ideas and moral support." It's not that big of a deal, but it's better > >to use accepted punctuation rules, and, besides, if it ends up the > >other way it's going to drive me crazy. Sorry, but I was raised by a > >mom who's an English teacher ... > > > >- jt > > > My college English teacher said it was only ok for news papers to leave > it off so they could save space. Ahh, the old Oxford (or serial) comma... Nikolas, your college English teacher was right. You should leave the third comma in there. The FreeBSD Documentation Project says so :-) http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/writing-style.html "Use the serial comma In a list of items within a paragraph, separate each item from the others with a comma. Separate the last item from the others with a comma and the word ``and''." Remember, for fun and games with grammar, you can always join freebsd-doc@! (And incidentally, this is fast going OT...) Cheers, David Adam zanchey@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au "Second-year MBBS... so that means you can cure 1/6th of all diseases?" From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 20:21:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A0416A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:21:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0281B43D1F; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:21:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041229202130i92002agbbe>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:21:34 +0000 Message-ID: <41D311C5.7080400@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:21:25 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <6587631D.5034AB43.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <200412271330.05504@zaphod.softweyr.com> <200412271403.12158.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041228154047.GA29577@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: <20041228154047.GA29577@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: sue@welearn.com.au cc: Joshua Tinnin cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: Jeff Lewis cc: core@freebsd.org cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:21:35 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >On 2004-12-27 14:03, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > >>I realize that there is a certain personality to the lists, and the >>people on FreeBSD's lists are more courteous than most (at least in my >>experience), but how do you convince someone it's worth it to ignore >>the noise? Moreover, I've found that most people in such a situation >>don't want to ask the -questions list due to the traffic, although I >>suppose it's always possible to post to the list without joining it. >> >> > >The most important detail is the one you list near the end of this >paragraph. It is not obligatory to _subscribe_ to the freebsd-questions >list to post a question there :-) > >There are no traffic problems when you just post a few messages in a >single thread. > >I know that people are reluctant to post to -questions. I just don't >know why yet, but this is something that, in my opinion, _can_ be helped >by the presence of the -newbies list. > >My relatively aggressive PR in favor of FreeBSD in the Linux companies I >hang out with, has started to bear fruit. Many people here in Patras >have now heard about FreeBSD. Some of them have also tried to use it >for real work. Most of them seem very reluctant to post to the >-questions list though. > >I have had a few conversations with those who don't post to mailing >lists and tried to discuss this reluctancy they seem to have. One of >the major causes of questions that remain unanswered is the fear of >"asking stupid things". Which is silly, but that's the way the guys >I've talked with think. > >When I point out to them that, in fact, "there is no stupid question" >and that they should do at least the following (in this order): > > - Look at the existing FreeBSD documentation. > - Ask me for pointers to the existing documentation. > - Look at the documentation again. > - Search Google. > - Search the -questions archives. > - Post to -questions if all else fails. > >They always feel thankful for at least having a clear 6-step plan for >troubleshooting. > >THIS is what a newbie needs most of the time. Not the real details of >setting up a firewall with PF or IPFILTER, not all the gory details of >IP routing and network address translation, not even the delicate >instructions for editing `inetd.conf' or even `rc.conf'. Most of the >time, the newbies I've had to deal with have questions that they don't >know what to do about. All they need is a pointer towards the docs or >just a friendly pat in the back and a couple of kind words: "Oh, that's >ok. You should read the manpage of `inetd.conf'. If you need more help >with that, post to -questions, since I haven't ever tinkered with FOOBAR >services myself". > >I think that -newbies should not provide technical answers, detailed and >fancy as -questions. But it may make a huge difference, when people >don't know what to do about some problem they have, by providing exactly >this sort of guidance: a mini summary of what can and should be done. > >The rest of the time, we can brag about our accomplishments as usual >(which, admittedly, happens very rarely these days) :-) > >- Giorgos > > > I think I understand why they are overwhelmed now. There not using message filters, everything is just flowing into there main inbox (as well as there normal email), This would overwhelm me too. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 13:19:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAA616A4D1 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:19:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB5C43D55 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:19:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041230131859i92002abkle>; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:18:59 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4003E.9090403@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:18:54 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Removing Blank Lines X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:19:00 -0000 Removing Blank or Empty Lines from a text file. Just posting this so I don't forget it, the last link and perl script is the one that worked btw: http://www.itworld.com/nl/unix_sys_adm/06272001/ http://unix.t-a-y-l-o-r.com/VMblank.html http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.perl.misc/browse_thread/thread/6521c310c7b32940/d4910450d920f281 perl -i.bak -ne "print if /\S/" file From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 18:00:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE7416A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:00:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F7543D41 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:00:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.1a.fdd112b (16239) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d24.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.165]) by air-in03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ33-3f6f41d4422839b; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:00:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:00:08 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 67.106.161.248 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:00:13 -0000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sue & Greg: Please don't hesitate to suggest that I take these * * comments to a more appropriate list. I do not want * * them to just be allowed as in times past. * * * * I believe that all of these postings are within * * the list's charter. Perhaps they will be a good * * example. If not, then perhaps I will concur with * * you both that the list should be disbanded. But * * I figure that I have roughly 30 days to push the * * envelope. Be purists so that newbies understand. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * FIRST ----- I chose FreeBSD to house my company's new external web server primarily because of it's stability. I've only played with linux, but enough to feel like I was on a real whirlwind of updates all the time. I figured that if FreeBSD was stable enough for Yahoo, Google and Pair (my ISP) to base THEIR business on, then it should be stable enough for this little business as well. SECOND ------ I have time. I have 3-6 months to get this box up, stable and secure. Security is this huge black hole for me. I don't even know enough to know how much I don't know. I am chomping at the bit to learn. THIRD ----- I primarily come from an MSDOS 3.0 - 6.22 world. I beta tested Win95. I barely used Win98, preferring WinNT. But I've used a multitude of computers throughout my career, including TRS-DOS, Concurrent CPM, PR1MOS, and tons of embedded stuff. I spent roughly 25 years in an electronics manufacturing environment. I got into IT as a Netware 3 and 4 administrator. Took a job at a fast growing company in the center of a major US city and helped them setup WinNT servers, as well as create a WAN throughout the US. The corporate mandate there was Microsoft. No FOSS whatsover, period. Today, I am an administrator for a small Microsoft based Win2k3/WinXP network, in a small company, located only 2 miles from my home. I am 47, eat lunch at home everyday and see my wife and teenagers every night. But I choose what we run here. We were bound to an app that mandated Microsoft SQL Server. We had no such mandate for the new web server. AND FINALLY! ------------ I have played with Unix, or worked in a very small way on production SunOS computers off and on for years. I never understood the whole concept of multiple shells and/or scripting languages. I've read about them, but there MUST be some teflon in the cranium somewhere. I understand this next question could invoke what I've termed digital zealotry, but as a FreeBSD newbie, I gotta know. Why are there so many different shells? Does each shell interface directly with the kernel independantly? AND (here it comes) which is the [right one/best one] to use? I guess I am TOO comfortable with the command.com/batch file world and that I need to open my mind a little. I've always felt that CMD/Batch was more of a limiting factor than a plus, but I could alway use KIX or Novell's login scripts to get network scripting done. For everything else, there was perl. I never had to chang a shell, replaced command.com. Just used a different scripting language. Perl has existed a lot longer in the unix world than the MS world. Why not script everything in that? So why CSHELL as a shell AND a scripting language, BASH as a shell AND a scripting language? SHELL, CSHELL and BASH all on the same machine? Do they have specific purposes? Should I log in as root using one type of shell but log in as my user account using another type of shell? I guess that I am leaning towards BASH for everything. I have an O'Reilly book for BASH. But if I do so, am I missing some rich feature set somewhere else? Is there a good rule of thumb for when I should not use a BASH script and go to a PERL script? URLs gladly accepted for places to learn more. Jeff __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 18:39:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AABC16A4CF for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:39:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1520D43D2F for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:39:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.108?) (mjeays2551@24.114.152.139 with plain) by smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 18:39:47 -0000 From: Mike Jeays To: Jeff Lewis In-Reply-To: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:39:54 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:39:48 -0000 On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 13:00, Jeff Lewis wrote: > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * > * Sue & Greg: Please don't hesitate to suggest that I take these * > * comments to a more appropriate list. I do not want * > * them to just be allowed as in times past. * > * * > * I believe that all of these postings are within * > * the list's charter. Perhaps they will be a good * > * example. If not, then perhaps I will concur with * > * you both that the list should be disbanded. But * > * I figure that I have roughly 30 days to push the * > * envelope. Be purists so that newbies understand. * > * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > FIRST > ----- > I chose FreeBSD to house my company's new external web server primarily > because of it's stability. I've only played with linux, but enough to > feel like I was on a real whirlwind of updates all the time. I figured > that if FreeBSD was stable enough for Yahoo, Google and Pair (my ISP) > to base THEIR business on, then it should be stable enough for this > little business as well. > > SECOND > ------ > I have time. I have 3-6 months to get this box up, stable and secure. > Security is this huge black hole for me. I don't even know enough to > know how much I don't know. I am chomping at the bit to learn. > > THIRD > ----- > I primarily come from an MSDOS 3.0 - 6.22 world. I beta tested Win95. > I barely used Win98, preferring WinNT. But I've used a multitude of > computers throughout my career, including TRS-DOS, Concurrent CPM, > PR1MOS, and tons of embedded stuff. I spent roughly 25 years in an > electronics manufacturing environment. I got into IT as a Netware 3 > and 4 administrator. Took a job at a fast growing company in the > center of a major US city and helped them setup WinNT servers, as > well as create a WAN throughout the US. The corporate mandate there > was Microsoft. No FOSS whatsover, period. > > Today, I am an administrator for a small Microsoft based Win2k3/WinXP > network, in a small company, located only 2 miles from my home. I am 47, > eat lunch at home everyday and see my wife and teenagers every night. > > But I choose what we run here. We were bound to an app that mandated > Microsoft SQL Server. We had no such mandate for the new web server. > > > AND FINALLY! > ------------ > I have played with Unix, or worked in a very small way on production > SunOS computers off and on for years. I never understood the whole > concept of multiple shells and/or scripting languages. I've read about > them, but there MUST be some teflon in the cranium somewhere. > > I understand this next question could invoke what I've termed digital > zealotry, but as a FreeBSD newbie, I gotta know. > > Why are there so many different shells? Does each shell interface > directly with the kernel independantly? AND (here it comes) which is > the [right one/best one] to use? There are several shells because each author felt he could improve on what had been done before - and to scratch a personal itch, perhaps. There isn't a 'best' shell - this is the stuff of flamewars. My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most Unixes, and has a good selection of features. I don't so much like the csh/tcsh family, which have a somewhat different syntax. It pays to learn one thoroughly - they are so similar that if you use several, it is easy to get confused. > > I guess I am TOO comfortable with the command.com/batch file world > and that I need to open my mind a little. I've always felt that CMD/Batch > was more of a limiting factor than a plus, but I could alway use KIX > or Novell's login scripts to get network scripting done. For everything > else, there was perl. I never had to chang a shell, replaced command.com. > Just used a different scripting language. Perl has existed a lot longer > in the unix world than the MS world. Why not script everything in that? > > So why CSHELL as a shell AND a scripting language, BASH as a shell AND > a scripting language? SHELL, CSHELL and BASH all on the same machine? > Do they have specific purposes? Should I log in as root using one type > of shell but log in as my user account using another type of shell? There is no reason to have separate shells for batch and interactive use - this just increases the learning curve. Many people recommend keeping sh as the root shell for FreeBSD, but lots more disagree. The benefit is that sh should always be available, even in a badly crippled machine. (If even sh won't work, the machine is probably toast) > > I guess that I am leaning towards BASH for everything. I have an > O'Reilly book for BASH. But if I do so, am I missing some rich feature > set somewhere else? > > Is there a good rule of thumb for when I should not use a BASH script > and go to a PERL script? If you can't do it easily in Bash, then using Perl makes sense. It depends on your skill level - Bash can do just about anything, but the harder things are very tricky sometimes. > > URLs gladly accepted for places to learn more. > > Jeff > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Switch to Netscape Internet Service. > As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register > > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer > Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. > Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 19:08:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069BB16A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:08:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vfemail.net (miwi2dsl-a234.wi.tds.net [216.170.248.235]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178BF43D41 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:08:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lute@vfemail.net) Received: (qmail 87502 invoked by uid 85); 30 Dec 2004 19:08:17 -0000 Received: from lute@vfemail.net by mail.vfemail.net by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (clamscan: 0.75.1. spamassassin: 2.63. Clear:. Processed in 2.307146 secs); 30 Dec 2004 19:08:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO agnes.myhome.net) (lute@vfemail.net@63.229.187.130) by miwi2dsl-a234.wi.tds.net with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 19:08:15 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:08:15 -0600 From: Lute Mullenix To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041230130815.568afedc@agnes.myhome.net> In-Reply-To: <41D17D1E.60201@nbritton.org> References: <20041228145253.550658DC026@ha-smtp1.tiscali.nl> <41D17D1E.60201@nbritton.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:08:20 -0000 On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:34:54 -0600 Nikolas Britton insisted: > Ok, I have a solution to the problems at hand. Delete this list and > "charter" then start a new list named freebsd-newbies and make up a new > "charter" with the inclusion of basic newbie help questions. I see this > as the only real solution to this problem as every one here seems to get > > all bent out of shape when you don't follow a charter, rule, or some > other obscure thing so lets just skirt around the issue and use this > loop hole so we can have are calk and eat it to. > I kind of like that idea. While I am not a total newbie, been using FreeBSD since getting 4.3 in Annelise Anderson's book. Have used two different versions of X and a whole slew of window managers, but there are a lot of stuff I still don't know. Don't get the questions list because it's a total flood that I don't want to deal with it. And if anyone has ever tried some of the FreeBSD IRC channels you know they can be less than sociable. Also have been totally ignored more than once on the questions list so not real fond of that either. So I have been thinking that I was going to be left totally on my own once this list shuts down. I have managed to get by for the most part cuz I'm not afraid to read but sometimes I don't have a clue where to even start. So something like this could be a workable alternative. I would support this idea. -- Lute It's OK to be different FreeBSD 5.3 RELEASE From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 19:21:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490BE16A4CF for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:21:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF74A43D45 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:21:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.1b7.d169a3c (16239) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d19.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.135]) by air-in03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ33-3f6f41d4552a269; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:21:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:21:14 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <732FB0DF.419212DD.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 67.106.161.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Batch Translation X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:21:22 -0000 I always suspected that MSDOS Batch files were the smallest of subsets of [insert favorite shell here]. Bit it's all I know well. Does anyone know of a web page that translates MSDOS batch file commands to [insert favorite shell here]? Jeff PS - I'm liking BASH. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 19:36:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D6A16A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:36:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E2F43D1D for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:36:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.c2.ee6abb1 (22681) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d26.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.167]) by air-in04.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ42-589941d458bc143; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:36:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:36:28 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <68170974.4104A84E.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 67.106.161.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Security issue - just getting started X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:36:32 -0000 I don't understand the concept of userland? (Userland vs ???) Throw in "chroot" and "jail" and I'm just completely lost. Where can I get started on understanding FreeBSD security? I want to lock down my Apache based webserver properly. I don't want to JUST run a script like Bastille, except to learn from it. I need the understanding to move forward. Jeff __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 20:24:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4566E16A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:24:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web42007.mail.yahoo.com (web42007.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BDD443D4C for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:24:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from d3javu1978@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 62754 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Dec 2004 20:24:07 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=IEUBPBTct+K+JXvGL7sbEM5vFysZ8HUfzqzuabuc+WmldtWqR8FwzX6fCrZXAprhVhPO7iE9LVJolKuXqxD2m2mHaYtKGW0jtyhp8VuJl1sIs3QVftJE/49wBHnIpAqTzVuVL+KdhZNZyHvE7k9F2bVews9zRodbUYS19CFgIYA= ; Message-ID: <20041230202407.62752.qmail@web42007.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.100.104.17] by web42007.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:24:07 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:24:07 -0800 (PST) From: Me To: Jeff Lewis , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:24:08 -0000 Hi, I would suggest reading Absolute BSD by Michael Lucas, he covers pretty much every question you asked in great detail. Building firewalls with IPFILTER, Installing Apache, diffrent kernel operation modes, file system security using chflags and other utilities. Diffrent shells are there for flexibility more then any thing, it just depends on what you like and how you plan to use your system. Here is a link that explains shells in more detail http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/shell-differences/ Scripting languages like PERL and Bash serve diffrent purposes. I do alot of Bash scripting to automate alot of day to day task, the possibilities are endless using a scripting language such as bash. If you're interested, a great book is UNIX Shell Programing by Stephen Kochan, Patrick Wood. Br, -JL --- Jeff Lewis wrote: > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * > * > * > * Sue & Greg: Please don't hesitate to suggest > that I take these * > * comments to a more appropriate list. > I do not want * > * them to just be allowed as in times > past. * > * > * > * I believe that all of these postings > are within * > * the list's charter. Perhaps they > will be a good * > * example. If not, then perhaps I will > concur with * > * you both that the list should be > disbanded. But * > * I figure that I have roughly 30 days > to push the * > * envelope. Be purists so that newbies > understand. * > * > * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * > > FIRST > ----- > I chose FreeBSD to house my company's new external > web server primarily > because of it's stability. I've only played with > linux, but enough to > feel like I was on a real whirlwind of updates all > the time. I figured > that if FreeBSD was stable enough for Yahoo, Google > and Pair (my ISP) > to base THEIR business on, then it should be stable > enough for this > little business as well. > > SECOND > ------ > I have time. I have 3-6 months to get this box up, > stable and secure. > Security is this huge black hole for me. I don't > even know enough to > know how much I don't know. I am chomping at the bit > to learn. > > THIRD > ----- > I primarily come from an MSDOS 3.0 - 6.22 world. I > beta tested Win95. > I barely used Win98, preferring WinNT. But I've used > a multitude of > computers throughout my career, including TRS-DOS, > Concurrent CPM, > PR1MOS, and tons of embedded stuff. I spent roughly > 25 years in an > electronics manufacturing environment. I got into IT > as a Netware 3 > and 4 administrator. Took a job at a fast growing > company in the > center of a major US city and helped them setup > WinNT servers, as > well as create a WAN throughout the US. The > corporate mandate there > was Microsoft. No FOSS whatsover, period. > > Today, I am an administrator for a small Microsoft > based Win2k3/WinXP > network, in a small company, located only 2 miles > from my home. I am 47, > eat lunch at home everyday and see my wife and > teenagers every night. > > But I choose what we run here. We were bound to an > app that mandated > Microsoft SQL Server. We had no such mandate for the > new web server. > > > AND FINALLY! > ------------ > I have played with Unix, or worked in a very small > way on production > SunOS computers off and on for years. I never > understood the whole > concept of multiple shells and/or scripting > languages. I've read about > them, but there MUST be some teflon in the cranium > somewhere. > > I understand this next question could invoke what > I've termed digital > zealotry, but as a FreeBSD newbie, I gotta know. > > Why are there so many different shells? Does each > shell interface > directly with the kernel independantly? AND (here it > comes) which is > the [right one/best one] to use? > > I guess I am TOO comfortable with the > command.com/batch file world > and that I need to open my mind a little. I've > always felt that CMD/Batch > was more of a limiting factor than a plus, but I > could alway use KIX > or Novell's login scripts to get network scripting > done. For everything > else, there was perl. I never had to chang a shell, > replaced command.com. > Just used a different scripting language. Perl has > existed a lot longer > in the unix world than the MS world. Why not script > everything in that? > > So why CSHELL as a shell AND a scripting language, > BASH as a shell AND > a scripting language? SHELL, CSHELL and BASH all on > the same machine? > Do they have specific purposes? Should I log in as > root using one type > of shell but log in as my user account using another > type of shell? > > I guess that I am leaning towards BASH for > everything. I have an > O'Reilly book for BASH. But if I do so, am I missing > some rich feature > set somewhere else? > > Is there a good rule of thumb for when I should not > use a BASH script > and go to a PERL script? > > URLs gladly accepted for places to learn more. > > Jeff > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Switch to Netscape Internet Service. > As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at > http://isp.netscape.com/register > > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer > Search from anywhere on the Web and block those > annoying pop-ups. > Download now at > http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 22:59:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C3916A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:59:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web80807.mail.yahoo.com (web80807.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.170.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C99A43D31 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:59:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041230225920.10186.qmail@web80807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.35.232.241] by web80807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:59:20 PST Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:59:20 -0800 (PST) From: To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: freebsd-users list X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:59:20 -0000 Hi newbie list members I've posted about this before but it might be a good time to bring it up again with all the changes with this list. FreeBSD Users is not a formal FreeBSD list and isn't dedicated to any one area of FreeBSD, it's just a small list. Right now we have about 20 members. My intention is for this list to be low key and helpful, chatty or technical, whatever the members need at the time. Basically an email user's group. To join: http://www.whee.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-users ===== Christopher Mark Conn http://storm.cadcam.iupui.edu/~cmcgoat Austin, Texas, USA From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 00:11:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951ED16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:11:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0310E43D46 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:11:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041231001139i9100rg1ume>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:11:40 +0000 Message-ID: <41D49936.4000802@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:11:34 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Jeays References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Jeff Lewis cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:11:41 -0000 Mike Jeays wrote: >On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 13:00, Jeff Lewis wrote: > > >> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >> * * >> * Sue & Greg: Please don't hesitate to suggest that I take these * >> * comments to a more appropriate list. I do not want * >> * them to just be allowed as in times past. * >> * * >> * I believe that all of these postings are within * >> * the list's charter. Perhaps they will be a good * >> * example. If not, then perhaps I will concur with * >> * you both that the list should be disbanded. But * >> * I figure that I have roughly 30 days to push the * >> * envelope. Be purists so that newbies understand. * >> * * >> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >> >>FIRST >>----- >>I chose FreeBSD to house my company's new external web server primarily >>because of it's stability. I've only played with linux, but enough to >>feel like I was on a real whirlwind of updates all the time. I figured >>that if FreeBSD was stable enough for Yahoo, Google and Pair (my ISP) >>to base THEIR business on, then it should be stable enough for this >>little business as well. >> >>SECOND >>------ >>I have time. I have 3-6 months to get this box up, stable and secure. >>Security is this huge black hole for me. I don't even know enough to >>know how much I don't know. I am chomping at the bit to learn. >> >>THIRD >>----- >>I primarily come from an MSDOS 3.0 - 6.22 world. I beta tested Win95. >>I barely used Win98, preferring WinNT. But I've used a multitude of >>computers throughout my career, including TRS-DOS, Concurrent CPM, >>PR1MOS, and tons of embedded stuff. I spent roughly 25 years in an >>electronics manufacturing environment. I got into IT as a Netware 3 >>and 4 administrator. Took a job at a fast growing company in the >>center of a major US city and helped them setup WinNT servers, as >>well as create a WAN throughout the US. The corporate mandate there >>was Microsoft. No FOSS whatsover, period. >> >>Today, I am an administrator for a small Microsoft based Win2k3/WinXP >>network, in a small company, located only 2 miles from my home. I am 47, >>eat lunch at home everyday and see my wife and teenagers every night. >> >>But I choose what we run here. We were bound to an app that mandated >>Microsoft SQL Server. We had no such mandate for the new web server. >> >> >>AND FINALLY! >>------------ >>I have played with Unix, or worked in a very small way on production >>SunOS computers off and on for years. I never understood the whole >>concept of multiple shells and/or scripting languages. I've read about >>them, but there MUST be some teflon in the cranium somewhere. >> >>I understand this next question could invoke what I've termed digital >>zealotry, but as a FreeBSD newbie, I gotta know. >> >>Why are there so many different shells? Does each shell interface >>directly with the kernel independantly? AND (here it comes) which is >>the [right one/best one] to use? >> >> > >There are several shells because each author felt he could improve on >what had been done before - and to scratch a personal itch, perhaps. >There isn't a 'best' shell - this is the stuff of flamewars. > >My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most Unixes, >and has a good selection of features. I don't so much like the csh/tcsh >family, which have a somewhat different syntax. > >It pays to learn one thoroughly - they are so similar that if you use >several, it is easy to get confused. > > >>I guess I am TOO comfortable with the command.com/batch file world >>and that I need to open my mind a little. I've always felt that CMD/Batch >>was more of a limiting factor than a plus, but I could alway use KIX >>or Novell's login scripts to get network scripting done. For everything >>else, there was perl. I never had to chang a shell, replaced command.com. >>Just used a different scripting language. Perl has existed a lot longer >>in the unix world than the MS world. Why not script everything in that? >> >>So why CSHELL as a shell AND a scripting language, BASH as a shell AND >>a scripting language? SHELL, CSHELL and BASH all on the same machine? >>Do they have specific purposes? Should I log in as root using one type >>of shell but log in as my user account using another type of shell? >> >> > >There is no reason to have separate shells for batch and interactive use >- this just increases the learning curve. > >Many people recommend keeping sh as the root shell for FreeBSD, but lots >more disagree. The benefit is that sh should always be available, even >in a badly crippled machine. (If even sh won't work, the machine is >probably toast) > > I thought csh was the default shell for freebsd....yea it is: root:********************************:0:0::0:0:Charlie &:/root:/bin/csh >>I guess that I am leaning towards BASH for everything. I have an >>O'Reilly book for BASH. But if I do so, am I missing some rich feature >>set somewhere else? >> >>Is there a good rule of thumb for when I should not use a BASH script >>and go to a PERL script? >> >> > >If you can't do it easily in Bash, then using Perl makes sense. It >depends on your skill level - Bash can do just about anything, but the >harder things are very tricky sometimes. > > >>URLs gladly accepted for places to learn more. >> >>Jeff >> >> >> >> Do you remember the TMTOWTDI motto for perl and the underlying message in it jeff?...... From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 00:36:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A2716A4D3 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:36:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from alpha.it.teithe.gr (alpha.it.teithe.gr [195.251.240.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655C043D39 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:36:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pstal@it.teithe.gr) Received: from [192.168.69.242] (ppp42-ax.noc.teithe.gr [195.251.120.42]) by alpha.it.teithe.gr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBV0aQTS009495; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:36:27 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <41D49F0F.6010003@it.teithe.gr> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:36:31 +0200 From: P Stalidis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Lewis References: <732FB0DF.419212DD.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> In-Reply-To: <732FB0DF.419212DD.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Batch Translation X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:36:42 -0000 Jeff Lewis wrote: >I always suspected that MSDOS Batch files were the smallest of subsets of [insert favorite shell here]. Bit it's all I know well. > >Does anyone know of a web page that translates MSDOS batch file commands to [insert favorite shell here]? > >Jeff > >PS - I'm liking BASH. > >__________________________________________________________________ > > > I remember 5 or 6 years ago a friend of mine had made himself csh scripts with MS-DOS names and syntax that would do the same thing as in dos. He then put them in a folder and added it in his path. So whenever he wrote something that would be correct for MS-DOS command.com his unix system would run it... The bad thing is that I have lost touch with him.... but you can do that yourself and I suppose that your old MS-DOS scripts will be available again. Of course you will learn how to make bash or csh or sh or zsh or whatever shell scripts in the proccess and probably the consumed time will be greater than to write all your dos scripts again. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 01:15:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9629D16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:15:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD15A43D2F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:15:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBV1FsCZ062712 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:15:54 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:15:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:15:56 -0000 Mike Jeays wrote: >My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most Unixes, >and has a good selection of features. I don't so much like the csh/tcsh >family, which have a somewhat different syntax. I particularly like the history mechanism which is enabled for the default csh/tcsh with FreeBSD. The recent usage of any command is recalled by typing a few letters and then up arrow. Bash probably can do it too and would have similar 'TAB' file name completion. But then - I remember thinking doskey was cool :) -- John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 01:51:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5886E16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:51:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D29C43D49 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:51:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041231015117i9100rffdme>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:51:17 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4B08F.8020304@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:51:11 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sub01@freeode.co.uk References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:51:18 -0000 John Murphy wrote: >Mike Jeays wrote: > > > >>My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most Unixes, >>and has a good selection of features. I don't so much like the csh/tcsh >>family, which have a somewhat different syntax. >> >> > >I particularly like the history mechanism which is enabled for the >default csh/tcsh with FreeBSD. The recent usage of any command is >recalled by typing a few letters and then up arrow. Bash probably >can do it too and would have similar 'TAB' file name completion. > >But then - I remember thinking doskey was cool :) > > Doskey was cool! :-) From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 02:09:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2856316A4CF for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:09:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp101.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp101.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 99E7F43D45 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:09:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.108?) (mjeays2551@24.114.152.139 with plain) by smtp101.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 02:09:41 -0000 From: Mike Jeays To: sub01@freeode.co.uk In-Reply-To: References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104431994.1669.19.camel@chaucer> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:09:42 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:09:43 -0000 On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:15, John Murphy wrote: > Mike Jeays wrote: > > >My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most Unixes, > >and has a good selection of features. I don't so much like the csh/tcsh > >family, which have a somewhat different syntax. > > I particularly like the history mechanism which is enabled for the > default csh/tcsh with FreeBSD. The recent usage of any command is > recalled by typing a few letters and then up arrow. Bash probably > can do it too and would have similar 'TAB' file name completion. > > But then - I remember thinking doskey was cool :) Bash has very similar features. Most of the shells have borrowed the good ideas from others, and you can compare this with evolutionary convergence - good ideas tend to persist and be re-used. Bash and TCSH share features for the same reason that fish and dolphins are similar shapes - it it the best solution to a problem. Fully agree about DOSKEY - it made the awful Windows command line a little bit more tolerable. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 02:33:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4710616A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:33:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3E443D2F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:33:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBV2X4CZ062921 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:33:04 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:33:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> In-Reply-To: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:33:06 -0000 jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) wrote: >Perl has existed a lot longer in the unix world than the MS world. >Why not script everything in that? Why not indeed. You can choose to write "everything" in perl but the OS can run on hardware where there wouldn't be room for it and; where scripts do their job perfectly well with a small shell, I doubt much would be gained by re-writing them. Also, FreeBSD is trying to use *less* GPL code. I'm sure you'll enjoy your web server project. You've certainly made a good choice of OS. The Fine Handbook will help you install and configure the various programs you'll need, but documentation on their usage, in greater depth, would be found on their respective web sites. -- John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 02:45:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB72716A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:45:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7404A43D5F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:45:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2004 02:45:44 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:45:37 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412301845.38627.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Mike Jeays cc: sub01@freeode.co.uk Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:45:44 -0000 On Thursday 30 December 2004 06:09 pm, Mike Jeays wrote: > On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:15, John Murphy wrote: > > Mike Jeays wrote: > > >My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most > > > Unixes, and has a good selection of features. I don't so much > > > like the csh/tcsh family, which have a somewhat different syntax. > > > > I particularly like the history mechanism which is enabled for the > > default csh/tcsh with FreeBSD. The recent usage of any command is > > recalled by typing a few letters and then up arrow. Bash probably > > can do it too and would have similar 'TAB' file name completion. > > > > But then - I remember thinking doskey was cool :) > > Bash has very similar features. Most of the shells have borrowed the > good ideas from others, and you can compare this with evolutionary > convergence - good ideas tend to persist and be re-used. Bash and > TCSH share features for the same reason that fish and dolphins are > similar shapes - it it the best solution to a problem. Incidentally, my favorite shell is zsh, which is a bit of a kitchen sink approach, but it's quite powerful. It's intended to be a superset of ksh, but it incorporates many features of ksh, Bash and tcsh. Most people I know who started out in the *nix world running Linux prefer Bash, because that's the default shell. Like others have said, it doesn't really matter that much what shell you prefer, as long as you learn the one you have and know it's strengths/weaknesses and can work with them. - jt > Fully agree about DOSKEY - it made the awful Windows command line a > little bit more tolerable. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 02:52:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF3C16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:52:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kryten.go-dedicated.com (kryten.go-dedicated.com [67.18.56.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACBC43D4C for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:52:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nic@ohko.org) Received: from 82-41-161-16.cable.ubr02.linl.blueyonder.co.uk ([82.41.161.16] helo=[192.168.0.4]) by kryten.go-dedicated.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1CkCtb-0000WA-0Y for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:52:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <200412301845.38627.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> <200412301845.38627.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nicolas Mackintosh Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:52:01 +0000 To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: nic@ohko.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - kryten.go-dedicated.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ohko.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:52:12 -0000 On 31 Dec 2004, at 02:45, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Thursday 30 December 2004 06:09 pm, Mike Jeays > wrote: >> On Thu, 2004-12-30 at 20:15, John Murphy wrote: >>> Mike Jeays wrote: >>>> My personal preference is Bash. It is readily available on most >>>> Unixes, and has a good selection of features. I don't so much >>>> like the csh/tcsh family, which have a somewhat different syntax. >>> >>> I particularly like the history mechanism which is enabled for the >>> default csh/tcsh with FreeBSD. The recent usage of any command is >>> recalled by typing a few letters and then up arrow. Bash probably >>> can do it too and would have similar 'TAB' file name completion. >>> >>> But then - I remember thinking doskey was cool :) >> >> Bash has very similar features. Most of the shells have borrowed the >> good ideas from others, and you can compare this with evolutionary >> convergence - good ideas tend to persist and be re-used. Bash and >> TCSH share features for the same reason that fish and dolphins are >> similar shapes - it it the best solution to a problem. > > Incidentally, my favorite shell is zsh, which is a bit of a kitchen > sink > approach, but it's quite powerful. It's intended to be a superset of > ksh, but it incorporates many features of ksh, Bash and tcsh. Most > people I know who started out in the *nix world running Linux prefer > Bash, because that's the default shell. Like others have said, it > doesn't really matter that much what shell you prefer, as long as you > learn the one you have and know it's strengths/weaknesses and can work > with them. > > - jt > >> Fully agree about DOSKEY - it made the awful Windows command line a >> little bit more tolerable. While I'm fairly new to the whole BSD experience, I've dabbled with various Linux builds over a year or two. I've always looked at the shell as a very personal thing. Some will prefer Bash, others will want to play with something completely different. It's a bit like having a favorite hammer... Only a lot more elegant! \npm From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 03:07:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B85816A4CF for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:07:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DAB43D4C for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:07:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041231030702i9100rgc77e>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:07:02 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4C250.3010200@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:06:56 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041230) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sub01@freeode.co.uk References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:07:04 -0000 John Murphy wrote: >Also, FreeBSD is trying to use *less* GPL code. > Perl is not GPL, heck it was around before the GPL was even a twink in RMS's head. The only stipulation I see for modifications to the code is that you have to release it into the "Public Domain" or "otherwise make them Freely Available" (BSD/MIT license) the motive as I understand it behind freebsd taking perl out of the "base system" was to make it easy for people to use whatever version of perl they want (5, 5.6, 5.8, etc) ------------------------------------------------ The (Perl) Artistic License Preamble The intent of this document is to state the conditions under which a Package may be copied, such that the Copyright Holder maintains some semblance of artistic control over the development of the package, while giving the users of the package the right to use and distribute the Package in a more-or-less customary fashion, plus the right to make reasonable modifications. Definitions "Package" refers to the collection of files distributed by the Copyright Holder, and derivatives of that collection of files created through textual modification. 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The End From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 03:16:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247B816A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:16:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5390243D3F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:16:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBV3GdCZ063309 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:16:39 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:16:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <68170974.4104A84E.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> In-Reply-To: <68170974.4104A84E.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Security issue - just getting started X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:16:41 -0000 Jeff Lewis wrote: >I don't understand the concept of userland? (Userland vs ???) If it's vs anything it would be kernelspace I guess. Userland is the rich toolset, the configuration mechanisms, the man pages and documentation. Everything, in fact, which a user may interact with and is part of the base install. >Where can I get started on understanding FreeBSD security? http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/security.html >I want to lock down my Apache based webserver properly. I'm sure that is a fine art. The balance between allowing what your users want and keeping all the bad guys out may not be easy to find. Nearly nine million google hits for 'apache security' though ;) -- John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 05:11:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB36816A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:11:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gawab.com (www.gawab.com [204.97.230.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C2B743D53 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:11:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jadukor@gawab.com) Received: (qmail 12689 invoked by uid 1004); 31 Dec 2004 05:09:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20041231050954.12686.qmail@gawab.com> References: <20041230120111.953ED16A502@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20041230120111.953ED16A502@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from 202.84.38.45 by www.gawab.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:09:54 GMT From: "Emon" To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:09:54 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [202.84.38.45] Subject: Dial-up connection problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:11:28 -0000 Hello everyone I am a newbie. I have just installed FreeBSD 4.10 and set up a Dial-up connection using "kppp"(it came with KDE). I am using an old external modem (PROLONK 1456VE). The problem is when I dial my ISP the connection sets up ok (I think...), but mozill/konqueror still can't browse, complaining something like "THE CONNECTION TO WWW.GOOGLE.COM COULD NOT BE FOUND". Oh by the way, my default security setting is medium, I don't know if it has got anything to do with this. SO... that's about it then Any pointers or suggessions??? Thanks in avdance --------------------------------------------- Free POP3 Email from www.Gawab.com Sign up NOW and get your account @gawab.com!! From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 05:30:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B280216A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:30:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nuumen.pair.com (nuumen.pair.com [209.68.1.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B6EB43D1F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:30:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from thuppi@nuumen.pair.com) Received: (qmail 2194 invoked by uid 55300); 31 Dec 2004 05:30:17 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:30:16 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Huppi X-X-Sender: thuppi@nuumen.pair.com To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:30:18 -0000 On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Nicolas Mackintosh wrote: > I've always looked at the shell as a very personal thing. Some will > prefer Bash, others will want to play with something completely > different. It's a bit like having a favorite hammer... Only a lot more > elegant! Heh...you have not seen my work then :) My two cents, though: I started out in a multi-platform environment and thus choose Bourne Shell for scripting (and still had to learn the sed, awk, etc differences since most shells are pretty useless alone.) As time goes by, I suspect it's less of an issue even for the few folks who find themselves in such a position. I will mention, though, that knowing Bourne Shell and portability issues can come in handy for working with autoconf, and that is likely a more common demand these days. FWIW, I've always used 'tcsh' interactively, but almost switched a while back out of disgust at not being able to figure out how to get a one-line foreach/{do_something}/end loop (which would allow me to re-run a complex command easily.) Thanks, - Tom From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 05:33:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D017F16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:33:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jail.idea-anvil.net (idea-anvil.net [63.226.12.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F8743D49 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:33:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@idea-anvil.net) Received: from mail.Idea-Anvil.net (vaio [10.0.0.99]) by jail.idea-anvil.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBV5Xest013305 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:33:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from james@idea-anvil.net) From: James Jhai To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:33:39 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20041230120111.953ED16A502@hub.freebsd.org> <20041231050954.12686.qmail@gawab.com> In-Reply-To: <20041231050954.12686.qmail@gawab.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412302233.39461.james@idea-anvil.net> Subject: Re: Dial-up connection problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:33:40 -0000 On Thursday 30 December 2004 10:09 pm, Emon wrote: > > Hello everyone > > I am a newbie. I have just installed FreeBSD 4.10 and set up a > Dial-up connection using "kppp"(it came with KDE). I am using an > old external modem (PROLONK 1456VE). The problem is when I dial > my ISP the connection sets up ok (I think...), but > mozill/konqueror still can't browse, complaining something like > "THE CONNECTION TO WWW.GOOGLE.COM COULD NOT BE FOUND". Oh by the > way, my default security setting is medium, I don't know if it > has got anything to do with this. > > SO... that's about it then > Any pointers or suggessions??? > > Thanks in avdance > --------------------------------------------- > Free POP3 Email from www.Gawab.com > Sign up NOW and get your account @gawab.com!! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Have you added the ip address of a dns server to /etc/resolv.conf? You'll need to add a line like this: nameserver 63.226.12.96 That is a name server I run, your welcome to use it, but it would be better to use your isp's DNS server. -- - James From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 05:40:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9653816A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:40:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F84043D1D for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:40:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041231054057i9100rg6f7e>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:40:57 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4E663.60206@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:40:51 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041230) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emon References: <20041230120111.953ED16A502@hub.freebsd.org> <20041231050954.12686.qmail@gawab.com> In-Reply-To: <20041231050954.12686.qmail@gawab.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dial-up connection problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0000 Emon wrote: >Hello everyone > >I am a newbie. I have just installed FreeBSD 4.10 and set up a >Dial-up connection using "kppp"(it came with KDE). I am using an >old external modem (PROLONK 1456VE). The problem is when I dial >my ISP the connection sets up ok (I think...), but >mozill/konqueror still can't browse, complaining something like >"THE CONNECTION TO WWW.GOOGLE.COM COULD NOT BE FOUND". Oh by the >way, my default security setting is medium, I don't know if it >has got anything to do with this. > >SO... that's about it then >Any pointers or suggessions??? > >Thanks in avdance > > Sounds Like a DNS and/or default router problem, Have you tried pinging the IP address of anything outside you?.... This is as far as we can help you on this list because are hands are tied, after you look into what I said post anymore questions you have to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > ping www.google.com PING www.google.com (216.239.57.103): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 216.239.57.103: icmp_seq=0 ttl=240 time=78.521 ms 64 bytes from 216.239.57.103: icmp_seq=1 ttl=240 time=72.450 ms 64 bytes from 216.239.57.103: icmp_seq=2 ttl=240 time=77.833 ms ^C --- www.google.com ping statistics --- 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 72.450/76.268/78.521/2.714 ms > ping www.freebsd.org PING www.freebsd.org (216.136.204.117): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 216.136.204.117: icmp_seq=0 ttl=51 time=80.989 ms 64 bytes from 216.136.204.117: icmp_seq=1 ttl=51 time=77.891 ms 64 bytes from 216.136.204.117: icmp_seq=2 ttl=51 time=83.015 ms ^C --- www.freebsd.org ping statistics --- 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 77.891/80.632/83.015/2.107 ms From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 08:23:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2531416A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:23:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10F543D31 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:23:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vijayendra.gadgil@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so97006wri for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:23:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=WBKyBQKPUraG8WV+TCu47j8ZFFqUYXehcgN53j+gPoxV98VPBQv/WlIoBCRtKxYWepSVDDxwkHz2zJh8DFjeTYApMQjWkAzOPDuubGJuYzH97a5P55/B1ZhMqnOX4/ggn8uLfafes7SnSbFmo5rzBGIL8PU8nDIyMDiZEPIV5no= Received: by 10.54.19.32 with SMTP id 32mr95522wrs; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.20.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:23:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:53:46 +0530 From: vijayendra gadgil To: Tom Huppi In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: vijayendra gadgil List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:23:47 -0000 On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:30:16 -0500 (EST), Tom Huppi wrote: > > On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Nicolas Mackintosh wrote: > > > > > I've always looked at the shell as a very personal thing. Some will > > prefer Bash, others will want to play with something completely > > different. It's a bit like having a favorite hammer... Only a lot more > > elegant! > > Heh...you have not seen my work then :) > > My two cents, though: I started out in a multi-platform > environment and thus choose Bourne Shell for scripting (and still > had to learn the sed, awk, etc differences since most shells are > pretty useless alone.) As time goes by, I suspect it's less of an > issue even for the few folks who find themselves in such a > position. I will mention, though, that knowing Bourne Shell and > portability issues can come in handy for working with autoconf, > and that is likely a more common demand these days. > > FWIW, I've always used 'tcsh' interactively, but almost switched a > while back out of disgust at not being able to figure out how to > get a one-line foreach/{do_something}/end loop (which would allow > me to re-run a complex command easily.) I would recommend 'ksh' it does the tasks of both 'csh' and 'sh' with advanced programming features, check out http://www.kornshell.com/ From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 08:53:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D9416A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:53:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nuumen.pair.com (nuumen.pair.com [209.68.1.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C43743D31 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:53:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from thuppi@nuumen.pair.com) Received: (qmail 71229 invoked by uid 55300); 31 Dec 2004 08:53:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:53:43 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Huppi X-X-Sender: thuppi@nuumen.pair.com To: vijayendra gadgil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:53:44 -0000 On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, vijayendra gadgil wrote: > On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:30:16 -0500 (EST), Tom Huppi wrote: > > FWIW, I've always used 'tcsh' interactively, but almost switched a > > while back out of disgust at not being able to figure out how to > > get a one-line foreach/{do_something}/end loop (which would allow > > me to re-run a complex command easily.) > > I would recommend 'ksh' it does the tasks of both 'csh' and 'sh' with > advanced programming features, check out http://www.kornshell.com/ As it happens, my attempts to do this one-liner with 'tcsh' were a direct result of watching someone who used 'ksh'. I thought it probable that 'bash' also could accomplish this feat (and maybe 'tcsh' also if I could figure it out.) Anyone know? IIRC, I solved the immediate issue with either find/-exec, or a ubiquitous and simple utility called 'checksed' (and it's friends.) After that, I ran out of incentive to change shells :) This being the newbies list, I should like to mention that I've found both 'find' and 'checksed/runsed' to be really useful over the years. They are two things that I have been happy to have spend the effort necessary to learn what they are and their basic usage. Thanks, - Tom From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 09:36:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B47016A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:36:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fidel.freesurf.fr (fidel.freesurf.fr [212.43.206.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C574943D2D for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:36:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (62-240-248-216.adsl.freesurf.fr [62.240.248.216]) by fidel.freesurf.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D0E2A5D14; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:36:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41D51D98.7010006@gautherot.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:36:24 +0100 From: Olivier Gautherot User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Huppi References: <49B5BEF2.7CCF22F4.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> <1104458982.622.3.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: vijayendra gadgil cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:36:16 -0000 Hi folks! >>>FWIW, I've always used 'tcsh' interactively, but almost switched a >>>while back out of disgust at not being able to figure out how to >>>get a one-line foreach/{do_something}/end loop (which would allow >>>me to re-run a complex command easily.) >>> >>> >>I would recommend 'ksh' it does the tasks of both 'csh' and 'sh' with >>advanced programming features, check out http://www.kornshell.com/ >> >> > >As it happens, my attempts to do this one-liner with 'tcsh' were a >direct result of watching someone who used 'ksh'. I thought it >probable that 'bash' also could accomplish this feat (and maybe >'tcsh' also if I could figure it out.) Anyone know? > > The keyword is "for", not "foreach". Try: bash-2.05b$ for n in tata tete titi toto tutu ; do echo "New item" ; echo $n ; done New item tata New item tete New item titi New item toto New item tutu bash-2.05b$ Note that the "do" must be followed directly by a command. A semicolon (i.e. an empty command) is considered a syntax error. My cent worth ;-) Olivier From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 18:13:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136E116A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:13:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31BA43D1F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:13:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick.shelton@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so75672wri for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:13:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:content-type:to:subject:from; b=JxbRLtaC/FyPV4Jspo/4EhUut67Fp+xbVIsOtB9ujGZX8xZJm2QKwJP0nI7OxAPmRdU5SlP4NQpjpgSaMrn02DOUzzRFXQuMGnznWmkxqBabjYcAn7FDaPBNRVa4tboRZTYoMzH1bbJHIHsb5jRm3F3L33FzMn8iYrXSwZ1dj00= Received: by 10.54.31.69 with SMTP id e69mr480843wre; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from onr.com ([67.10.100.47]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTP id 65sm86839wra.2004.12.31.10.13.07; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:13:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41D59731.9070508@onr.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:15:13 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org From: rick Subject: Re: Security issue - just getting started X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:13:09 -0000 i'm sure there are better explanations of these concepts than i can provide. > I don't understand the concept of userland? (Userland vs ???) userland and kernelspace has to do with which code is being executed. system calls and lower level functionality comes from the kernel. > Throw in "chroot" and "jail" and I'm just completely lost. jailing a process is the idea of creating a false virtual environment for a program. the program believes that its environment is something completely different from the real environment that is the entire system provided by the operating system and its utilities. for example, say i want to run a ftp server. running it straight from a non-jailed environment means that the entire system environment is visible to the service. but running the service from a chroot-ed environment would limit what was visible to the ftp service. the ftp service would believe that the root of the file system was something like /var/ftp/ instead of just /. then, no matter what tomfoolery occurs, nothing above the /var/ftp/ directory would ever be available to the ftp service. of course, breaking out of a jailed environment is one of the goals of malicious users. > > Where can I get started on understanding FreeBSD security? there are incredible amounts of information available on this subject online. search for things like "freebsd security" and "unix security." but the real first step is getting to know your system. log in as a regular user and see what you can and can't do. look at your shell environment and see how it differs from the root user's environment. things like that. understand file and directory permissions and how they can be used with owner/group id's. > > I want to lock down my Apache based webserver properly. > I don't want to JUST run a script like Bastille, except > to learn from it. I need the understanding to move forward. apache.org has some information about securing your installation. again, there are incredible amounts of information available on this subject. i have read that running apache in a chroot environment is a bad idea and that there are better ways of securing the server. you may also want to read the apache bible. it has lots of advice and examples. because it is geared toward someone who is starting out, i would also recommend finding more involved discussion once you're familiar with the basics. but it does seem like a fair enough starting point. once you're running your service, try it out. see how much you can make it do. then ask yourself if you really want it to do that. as always, have a healthy mistrust of any service you run on your system. be vigilent by watching out for security announcements and inspecting log files. and never enable or allow for more than is necessary. -- ~rick From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 19:10:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B355B16A4CF for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A2843D31 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sue@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (sue@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBVJAND1000965 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:23 GMT (envelope-from sue@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from sue@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBVJANCC000921 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:23 GMT (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:23 GMT From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <200412311910.iBVJANCC000921@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Newbies FAK X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:23 -0000 FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://people.freebsd.org/~sue/newbies/fak.html FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. It is particularly important to send all installation questions and answers to FreeBSD-Questions so that they only appear in one place. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for FreeBSD help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. We can help people to use the FreeBSD mailing lists and resources, or to interact more productively with the broader FreeBSD community. These are not support questions, and not technical, so we deal with them here. Everyone can help with these new user orientation requests. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ Mailing list membership To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Use the easy form at http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies to subscribe to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list, or to change your subscription details if you are already a member. To Unsubscribe from FreeBSD-Newbies: To stop receiving list emails, simply follow the unsubscribe link that appears at the bottom of each email you receive from the mailing list. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org is distributed to all members of the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 21:00:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84FB16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:00:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AC443D2D for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:00:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id g.1c.fe0213e (22683); Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d18.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.134]) by air-in04.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ44-589b41d5bdc99c; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:59:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:59:53 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: freebsd@nbritton.org (Nikolas Britton), Mike.Jeays@rogers.com (Mike Jeays) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FC5E3B8.4CB72279.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 151.204.10.75 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:00:01 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: >Do you remember the TMTOWTDI motto for perl and the underlying message >in it jeff?...... No. But I googled for it, and I am learning. "There's more than one way to do it." Apparently authored by Tim Towdy. Yes, I like options. And I like the idea that not everyone works well in the same environment -- so we have variety, and maybe even more importantly, the freedom (as in speech) to have that variety. Happy Newbie Year everyone, and thanks for all your help! __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 21:13:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5AC16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:13:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028E643D1F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:13:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1b5.d179f98 (22683); Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d17.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.133]) by air-in04.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ44-589b41d5c1102d3; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:13:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:13:52 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: d3javu1978@yahoo.com (Me), freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0CF97B56.60183188.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 151.204.10.75 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Shell Games X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:13:59 -0000 Me wrote: > Hi, > I would suggest reading Absolute BSD by Michael Lucas, > he covers pretty much every question you asked in > great detail. Building firewalls with IPFILTER, > Installing Apache, diffrent kernel operation modes, > file system security using chflags and other utilities. > Different shells are there for flexibility more then any thing, > it just depends on what you like and how you plan to > use your system. Here is a link that explains shells > in more detail I currently have "The Complete FreeBSD" by Greg Lehey. It's the 3rd edition and the disks inside say that they are v4.0 from March 2000. It has a section on Firewalling and IP Aliasing. >http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/shell-differences/ JUST what I was looking for! Will read thoroughly. > >Scripting languages like PERL and Bash serve diffrent >purposes. I do alot of Bash scripting to automate alot >of day to day task, the possibilities are endless >using a scripting language such as bash. >If you're interested, a great book is UNIX Shell >Programing by Stephen Kochan, Patrick Wood. Thanks one more time. I will work with the book "Learning the bash Shell" and if I become adept at this, will move on to this scripting. Thanks for the leg up! __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 21:24:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C77016A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:24:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C3543D1D for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:24:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id o.1b5.d17a49b (16237); Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-d13.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.129]) by air-in03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ31-3f6d41d5c3a026f; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:24:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:24:48 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: pstal@it.teithe.gr (P Stalidis) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2C80B6FE.7B258810.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 151.204.10.75 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Batch Translation X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:24:55 -0000 P Stalidis wrote: >I remember 5 or 6 years ago a friend of mine had made himself csh >scripts with MS-DOS names and syntax that would do the same thing as in >dos. He then put them in a folder and added it in his path. So whenever >he wrote something that would be correct for MS-DOS command.com his unix >system would run it... >The bad thing is that I have lost touch with him.... but you can do that >yourself and I suppose that your old MS-DOS scripts will be available >again. Of course you will learn how to make bash or csh or sh or zsh or >whatever shell scripts in the proccess and probably the consumed time >will be greater than to write all your dos scripts again. That's kind of like running bash scripts on my XP box using CygWin. Actually, I'm looking for something more like this: DOS BSD ------------------------------ ------------------------------ List the directory contents dir ls dir /s (include subdirectories) ls -R (lists recursively) Just an idea. Jeff __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp