From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 02:28:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757DB16A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:28:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB4943D53 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:28:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 70so193527wra for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gXQRrjoM/+3RcKS3RsQU4fJNFwmgVM2wYyGWDlvFMOEreFpQXWKKykZj7Ffj6bTOnaSvEwh42GvP7KXCWf+z4tBOb1y7ygiQodhZYyhYBIoVJE3rIhKH0WqmLy2XlUTJ0govtwkSsvitrpNA4Vx2MOUisr+cbOVlDheN8o+spyA= Received: by 10.54.13.44 with SMTP id 44mr2268637wrm; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.66 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fd864e05060419287e997bc4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:28:05 -0700 From: Astrodog To: racerx@makeworld.com In-Reply-To: <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 02:28:06 -0000 Certainly #freebsdhelp on efnet gets a bad rep at times unduly.... I wouldn't however, reccomend #freebsd over there. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 02:31:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFC016A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:31:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C5143D4C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:31:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D179F60D8; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:31:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24390-04; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:31:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE1860D4; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:31:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A263FF.7030403@makeworld.com> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:31:27 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> <2fd864e05060419287e997bc4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05060419287e997bc4@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 02:31:37 -0000 Astrodog wrote: > Certainly #freebsdhelp on efnet gets a bad rep at times unduly.... I > wouldn't however, reccomend #freebsd over there. > > I will agree tho - FreeNode is by far the best, imo -- Best regards, Chris All American cars are basically Chevrolets. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 13:55:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB0616A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:55:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10FF43D48 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:55:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155D1E912 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:55:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.47]) by mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5601010C9E0 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:55:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-084-056-238-113.arcor-ip.net [84.56.238.113]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45EA31E912 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:55:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.13.3/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j55Dt4Hc064300 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:55:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j55Dt4Ir064299 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:55:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> <2fd864e05060308544bc66225@mail.gmail.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:55:10 -0000 Astrodog wrote: > If you aren't familier enough with something to evaluate it, you > shouldn't review it. On the other hand, the reviewer should be neutral, which in this area is strongly at odds with familiarity of the review subject. > I've done plenty of evaluations of software for customers of mine, > and I certainly don't just go through the install process, say "This > sucks" and move on to the next product. I'm sorry, but you are not in a position to judge your own review process. For that we need a third party observer. And for all I know, the producers of the software you evaluated might be aghast at your process. > I'm aware writing a review is incredibly difficult, however, I would > suggest that one simply not write a review, if they are unwilling, or > unable to meet the standard required by the technical audience their > review is targeted at. Which is why reviews are written by those who don't have these qualms. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 17:00:58 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F90516A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:00:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B97243D1D for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:00:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so936546wra for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 10:00:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cggKd4ijnN9hT/1t9UhZRY2Nk44a8WrVPGd9wPKKfdeWeDD+wdXzI1VymVCg8sWDXvI2UwaucK2ltS1asuSXNZyBRGNf/+B5jLMdzs4gjBtaAcyJJ/MijQyY/eJ/kwub+QzmdySb1KqgcOUxL+NqvCW3ohA9PyUrkadoorNqKv0= Received: by 10.54.78.16 with SMTP id a16mr2663555wrb; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 10:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.66 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fd864e05060510005beae696@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:00:57 -0700 From: Astrodog To: Christian Weisgerber In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> <2fd864e05060308544bc66225@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:00:58 -0000 On 6/5/05, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Astrodog wrote: >=20 > > If you aren't familier enough with something to evaluate it, you > > shouldn't review it. >=20 > On the other hand, the reviewer should be neutral, which in this > area is strongly at odds with familiarity of the review subject. >=20 It doesn't take long, on the lists, and reading docs, to be pretty familier with FreeBSD. > > I've done plenty of evaluations of software for customers of mine, > > and I certainly don't just go through the install process, say "This > > sucks" and move on to the next product. >=20 > I'm sorry, but you are not in a position to judge your own review > process. For that we need a third party observer. And for all I > know, the producers of the software you evaluated might be aghast > at your process. >=20 I certainly can't say if my reviews are great or not. What I can say, however, is that I don't just run the installer, and determine at that point what the software is good for. > > I'm aware writing a review is incredibly difficult, however, I would > > suggest that one simply not write a review, if they are unwilling, or > > unable to meet the standard required by the technical audience their > > review is targeted at. >=20 > Which is why reviews are written by those who don't have these > qualms. >=20 And why I'll continue to point out factual inaccuracies in said reviews. > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 17:22:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B4D16A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:22:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543D043D49 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:22:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Deyop-00085p-00; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:21:51 +0200 Received: from host217-42-173-197.range217-42.btcentralplus.com ([217.42.173.197] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Deyop-0002hh-00; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:21:51 +0200 Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:21:49 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: Chris Message-ID: <20050605172149.GA14788@anarion> References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:22:02 -0000 > While it's true anyone can flame anybody - we in the channel do have > some easy things to follow before asking. In the topic it refers to > seeking the Handbook, /usr/ports/updating & /usr/src/updating. > > Many users after reading such topics generally find that it's not much > to ask that they do a few things on ones own. I have been in that > channel for over a year, and while it's certainly try that does and can > happen - it's generally warranted. > > Just my point of view. And as I mentioned, we ARE working to correct the > image that is mentioned on the FBSD site. You'll never remove razor sharp wit. > > So please - don't presumably shut it down when you may not have been > there in some time. > > -- > Best regards, > Chris > What's the benefit of FreeBSD.org removing what they said? more traffic? People responding on the mailing lists to problems is much more beneficial. People can then search their problems! -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 17:27:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD4B16A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:27:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7AD43D1F for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:27:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F8160E2; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:26:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33301-05; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:26:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713BA60DA; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:26:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A335E5.6050307@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:27:01 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Liam J. Foy" References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> <20050605172149.GA14788@anarion> In-Reply-To: <20050605172149.GA14788@anarion> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:27:03 -0000 Liam J. Foy wrote: >>While it's true anyone can flame anybody - we in the channel do have >>some easy things to follow before asking. In the topic it refers to >>seeking the Handbook, /usr/ports/updating & /usr/src/updating. >> >>Many users after reading such topics generally find that it's not much >>to ask that they do a few things on ones own. I have been in that >>channel for over a year, and while it's certainly try that does and can >>happen - it's generally warranted. >> >>Just my point of view. And as I mentioned, we ARE working to correct the >>image that is mentioned on the FBSD site. > > > You'll never remove razor sharp wit. This may be true - but then again, it does add some comic relief. > >>So please - don't presumably shut it down when you may not have been >>there in some time. >> > > What's the benefit of FreeBSD.org removing what they said? more traffic? People > responding on the mailing lists to problems is much more beneficial. People can > then search their problems! > It's just another vehicle for users to use. The more tools you give to people, they better off they are if they wish to use them. IRC does not have to have the stigma it seems to have. There are many decent users out there - and the efforts should not be dismissed - imho. -- Best regards, Chris A large system, produced by expanding the dimensions of a smaller system, does not behave like the smaller system. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 17:53:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A119216A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:53:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469EA43D49 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:53:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DezJm-0005wr-00; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:53:50 +0200 Received: from host217-42-173-197.range217-42.btcentralplus.com ([217.42.173.197] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DezJm-00032g-00; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:53:50 +0200 Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:53:49 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: Chris Message-ID: <20050605175349.GA15071@anarion> References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> <20050605172149.GA14788@anarion> <42A335E5.6050307@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42A335E5.6050307@makeworld.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:53:55 -0000 > It's just another vehicle for users to use. The more tools you give to > people, they better off they are if they wish to use them. > > IRC does not have to have the stigma it seems to have. There are many > decent users out there - and the efforts should not be dismissed - imho. It's always the minority fucking it for everyone else. The FreeBSD view[1] also keeps them away from IRC problems. I personally think the FreeBSD view is fair and shows a true state of IRC these days. However, you must except people are not always going to head straight for the handbook (you mentioned we ask a few simple things). It seems most problems in IRC arise from someone asking a simple question, and everyone thinking they're cool to jump on the bang wagon and riducule. [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/support.html > > -- > Best regards, > Chris -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 18:02:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B60516A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:02:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BE843D1F for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:02:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E55660E2; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:02:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33555-01; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:02:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C2A60DA; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:02:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A33E35.3090805@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:02:29 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Liam J. Foy" References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> <20050605172149.GA14788@anarion> <42A335E5.6050307@makeworld.com> <20050605175349.GA15071@anarion> In-Reply-To: <20050605175349.GA15071@anarion> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:02:29 -0000 Liam J. Foy wrote: >>It's just another vehicle for users to use. The more tools you give to >>people, they better off they are if they wish to use them. >> >>IRC does not have to have the stigma it seems to have. There are many >>decent users out there - and the efforts should not be dismissed - imho. > > > It's always the minority fucking it for everyone else. The FreeBSD view[1] also > keeps them away from IRC problems. I personally think the FreeBSD view is fair > and shows a true state of IRC these days. > > However, you must except people are not always going to head straight for > the handbook (you mentioned we ask a few simple things). It seems most problems > in IRC arise from someone asking a simple question, and everyone thinking > they're cool to jump on the bang wagon and riducule. > > [1]: http://www.freebsd.org/support.html > >>-- >>Best regards, >>Chris > > While what you say has more truth then not, at least the website has changed some verbiage - and that's what I was hoping for to begin with. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/support.html#IRC In any event, we'll still continue to support the project there - no matter what the overall opinions are. -- Best regards, Chris If you are already in a hole, there's no use to continue digging. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 21:07:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC4316A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:07:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from mail.bitfreak.org (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DA943D4C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:07:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from SMILEY (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mail.bitfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3476F19F3B; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:08:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Darren Pilgrim" To: Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:07:07 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c56a12$8c3b76b0$0a2a15ac@SMILEY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 In-Reply-To: <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> Importance: Normal Cc: 'FreeBSD - Advocacy' Subject: RE: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:07:21 -0000 From: Chris > While it's true anyone can flame anybody - we in the channel do have > some easy things to follow before asking. In the topic it refers to > seeking the Handbook, /usr/ports/updating & /usr/src/updating. > > Many users after reading such topics generally find that it's not much > to ask that they do a few things on ones own. I have been in that > channel for over a year, and while it's certainly try that > does and can happen - it's generally warranted. Treating people like dirt just for asking a question is NEVER warranted, even if that question is at the level of, "What's the number for 911?" People who come and ask questions are, at some level, genuinely in need of help and deserve a genuine response. If it's in the Handbook, then tell them, "You need to do $FOO. A guide and reference can be found in the Handbook, section $BAR." People only grow when they realize their stupidity on their own terms. Forcing such realizations down their throats is not useful. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 21:22:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC2A16A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:22:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D80943D1D for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:22:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D3860E2; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:22:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34496-04; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:22:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC8560DA; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:22:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A36D2F.4010001@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:22:55 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim References: <002201c56a12$8c3b76b0$0a2a15ac@SMILEY> In-Reply-To: <002201c56a12$8c3b76b0$0a2a15ac@SMILEY> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Cc: 'FreeBSD - Advocacy' Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:22:56 -0000 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > From: Chris > >>While it's true anyone can flame anybody - we in the channel do have >>some easy things to follow before asking. In the topic it refers to >>seeking the Handbook, /usr/ports/updating & /usr/src/updating. >> >>Many users after reading such topics generally find that it's not much >>to ask that they do a few things on ones own. I have been in that >>channel for over a year, and while it's certainly try that >>does and can happen - it's generally warranted. > > > Treating people like dirt just for asking a question is NEVER warranted, > even if that question is at the level of, "What's the number for 911?" > People who come and ask questions are, at some level, genuinely in need of > help and deserve a genuine response. If it's in the Handbook, then tell > them, "You need to do $FOO. A guide and reference can be found in the > Handbook, section $BAR." > > People only grow when they realize their stupidity on their own terms. > Forcing such realizations down their throats is not useful. > While I certainly can't argue against what you are saying - you need to apply that to lists also. Far too often I have seen (and contributed) the same thing on the FBSD lists. There are exceptions. As I said, IRC is not perfect. There are users that are willing to, and are doing so, helping. It's like the list moderatators - when a thread gets out of hand, its halted or removed. Additionally (I want to stress this) our FBSD lists are NOT exempt from exactly what you have mentioned. And in the end, all I posted was a thread to allow users to visit any of the FBSD channels on any of the IRC networks and let them judge for themselves. Please don't be the judge for them. I shall not continue this thread - I have made my points, and I have listened to counter points (and some I agreed with). IRC is just another form of gaining help should a user wish to try it. -- Best regards, Chris Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 21:32:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700BE16A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:32:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206C443D49 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:32:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Df2jc-0003lg-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:32:44 +0200 Received: from host217-42-173-197.range217-42.btcentralplus.com ([217.42.173.197] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Df2jc-0005fb-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:32:44 +0200 Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:32:43 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050605213243.GA20634@anarion> References: <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> <002201c56a12$8c3b76b0$0a2a15ac@SMILEY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002201c56a12$8c3b76b0$0a2a15ac@SMILEY> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:32:45 -0000 > Treating people like dirt just for asking a question is NEVER warranted, > even if that question is at the level of, "What's the number for 911?" > People who come and ask questions are, at some level, genuinely in need of > help and deserve a genuine response. If it's in the Handbook, then tell > them, "You need to do $FOO. A guide and reference can be found in the > Handbook, section $BAR." I completely agree here. Being an asshole isn't cool or smart! =) > People only grow when they realize their stupidity on their own terms. > Forcing such realizations down their throats is not useful. -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 13:48:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B8116A41C; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:48:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E350143D4C; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:48:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (p54AAFA96.dip.t-dialin.net [84.170.250.150]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2EB30DD6; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:51:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A454AF.3010908@incubus.de> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:50:39 +0200 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050526) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maxi Combina References: <285af087050603095356601a3d@mail.gmail.com> <200506061249.j56Cn1vd018910@lurza.secnetix.de> <285af08705060606255e26aa5b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <285af08705060606255e26aa5b@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 OpenPGP: id=6FF22C9F; url=http://www.mkbuelow.net/mkbkeys Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:48:22 -0000 Maxi Combina wrote: > companies, etc) to move to an open source OS, we must do an effort. I > think that there are a lot of linux distros out there that are really > easy to use, and even more "friendly" or "beatiful" than windows. > I dont think that FreeBSD has achieved this. I dont think there is > need. FreeBSD is more suitable for a server station, but not for the > desktop. I use linux both as server and desktop with excelent results. If you want a Unix desktop, like most likely many people on this mailing list want, or need, you can use FreeBSD aswell as Linux but not Windows (even with things like UWin or Cygwin, it's a pain). I don't understand this "we need to compete with Windows on the desktop" thing. I've never considered Windows to be particularly useful as a desktop environment, why should the Unix systems compete with it? [And btw., please let's move this discussion to -advocacy, since it doesn't really belong on this list.] mkb. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 14:15:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF07316A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:15:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from arginine.spc.org (arginine.spc.org [83.167.185.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64D2443D1D for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:15:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A66265319; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:13:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from arginine.spc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arginine.spc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 95884-01-2; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:13:34 +0100 (BST) Received: from empiric.dek.spc.org (host81-134-123-217.in-addr.btopenworld.com [81.134.123.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A898A6530A; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:13:33 +0100 (BST) Received: by empiric.dek.spc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2D5E26266; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:15:31 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:15:31 +0100 From: Bruce M Simpson To: Matthias Buelow Message-ID: <20050606141531.GL734@empiric.icir.org> References: <285af087050603095356601a3d@mail.gmail.com> <200506061249.j56Cn1vd018910@lurza.secnetix.de> <285af08705060606255e26aa5b@mail.gmail.com> <42A454AF.3010908@incubus.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <42A454AF.3010908@incubus.de> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Maxi Combina Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:15:35 -0000 [Cc list trimmed] On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:50:39PM +0200, Matthias Buelow wrote: > I don't understand this "we need to compete with Windows on the desktop" > thing. I've never considered Windows to be particularly useful as a > desktop environment, why should the Unix systems compete with it? I disagree. People are increasingly looking to open source systems to offer a real alternative to the 'dominant paradigm' of Windows. The points made about cross-porting environments such as UWin, Cygwin etc. seem irrelevant here. I have worked with all of them in depth, and I can testify that they are of limited usefulness -- Windows is totally different =66rom UNIX, inside and out. Those systems which don't adapt to the new rules of the game will fall by the wayside, or find themselves increasingly forced into a niche. FreeBSD is no exception to this. It would be the height of conceit to imagine that FreeBSD's destiny lies in the server space alone, and the amount of work that goes into this system serves to demonstrate that the grass roots developer base at large are aware of this, even if the pundits amongst them don't voice this as an opinion. Just because I prefer to run WindowMaker and lots of shell sessions on my open source UNIX machine doesn't mean that I shouldn't care about the way these things are headed, because ultimately the value of this technology (and thus the opportunities to work on it) is determined by how useful it is to people at large. Regards, BMS From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 15:05:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A3E16A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:05:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from yuval_levy@yahoo.com) Received: from teby.sfina.com (teby.sfina.com [216.194.67.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EDAF543D1F for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:05:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from yuval_levy@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 23470 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2005 15:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by 0 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2005 15:05:02 -0000 Message-ID: <42A466E4.6070609@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:08:20 -0400 From: Yuval Levy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthias Buelow References: <285af087050603095356601a3d@mail.gmail.com> <200506061249.j56Cn1vd018910@lurza.secnetix.de> <285af08705060606255e26aa5b@mail.gmail.com> <42A454AF.3010908@incubus.de> In-Reply-To: <42A454AF.3010908@incubus.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:05:04 -0000 Matthias Buelow wrote: >I don't understand this "we need to compete with Windows on the desktop" >thing. I've never considered Windows to be particularly useful as a >desktop environment, why should the Unix systems compete with it? > > > You don't need to compete with Windows. You want to compete against yourself, and improve your own results to become even better. Usability is a count on which FreeBSD has weaknesses, especially in the eye of the large segment of users who value a GUI, i.e. those coming from the Windows world. For as much as I'd like to get rid of Windows on the desktop, I still find myself spending 80% of my time with it... even now, although I am using Thunderbird, available on many OS. The reason is that there is often this one or two application that drive the decision, in this case which is not available under other platforms (yes, there are alternatives but I have not had time to look into them yet) and Adobe Photoshop, which I could run on a Mac OSX, but I'd have to spend money on overpriced hardware I do not want. >[And btw., please let's move this discussion to -advocacy, since it >doesn't really belong on this list.] > > Agree with you, the FreeBSD vs. Windows belongs in advocacy. In my opinion the original topic of the thread still belongs where it was started. Yuv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 15:17:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2095E16A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:17:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC8B43D53 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:17:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (p54AAFA96.dip.t-dialin.net [84.170.250.150]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC25E30D7F; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:20:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A4699F.8070209@incubus.de> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:19:59 +0200 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050526) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yuval Levy References: <285af087050603095356601a3d@mail.gmail.com> <200506061249.j56Cn1vd018910@lurza.secnetix.de> <285af08705060606255e26aa5b@mail.gmail.com> <42A454AF.3010908@incubus.de> <42A466E4.6070609@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <42A466E4.6070609@yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 OpenPGP: id=6FF22C9F; url=http://www.mkbuelow.net/mkbkeys Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:17:36 -0000 Yuval Levy wrote: > yourself, and improve your own results to become even better. Usability > is a count on which FreeBSD has weaknesses, especially in the eye of the > large segment of users who value a GUI, i.e. those coming from the > Windows world. Maybe, but I only speak for myself, and not for that large segment of users who value a [Windows-style] GUI. I always found X11 more useful than Windows, if only because I could resize dialog windows, something that still doesn't seem to have made it into many Windows programs. OTOH, font handling is better on Windows. The new Xft stuff on X11 is a bloody mess. mkb. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 15:50:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF3816A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:50:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from yuval_levy@yahoo.com) Received: from web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F34A543D53 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:49:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from yuval_levy@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 24405 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jun 2005 15:49:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BG8O8OBjdlrhvN3f18mFf7ZeFNyZu2Edk92A6HCeTJHBuSKGxt1N+rVuYV2lB4TGcjYCGDd3rcz6q2iBsO/IPytZKarCw1BGVplCwwvejmvy/hthdnZrA0v49+pI3tFAzGb0yGjbFZ8B860lVy/NfXMTM01cV/Y2h1XLIGD2I6M= ; Message-ID: <20050606154959.24403.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.134.226.245] by web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:49:59 PDT Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT) From: yuval levy To: Matthias Buelow In-Reply-To: <42A4699F.8070209@incubus.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:50:01 -0000 --- Matthias Buelow wrote: > Yuval Levy wrote: > > > Usability > > is a count on which FreeBSD has weaknesses, > > especially in the eye of the > > large segment of users who value a GUI, i.e. those > > coming from the Windows world. > > Maybe, but I only speak for myself, and not for that > large segment of > users who value a [Windows-style] GUI. It is the market share that speaks for the silent majority who values and uses such a GUI. > I always found X11 more useful > than Windows, if only because I could resize dialog > windows, something > that still doesn't seem to have made it into many > Windows programs. Agree that Windows has a lot of nuisances, besides, it always sticks in my face and interrupts me. Unfortunately most GUIs do, making multitasking a pain. I personally find the differences between the existing GUIs less important than the applications that run on them. I take whatever there is for a default, as 90% of the users do (according to usability lab results). So I use Windows, I use Gnome (at least I think this is the default of Fedora Core 3) and I sometimes use KDE (default of Knoppix?). I have heard of X11 but I do not know much about it. Is it the underlying layer to both Gnome and KDE? No offense meant, but the further away from the application, the least I know. I am a dummy by choice. Yuv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 16:00:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118BF16A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:00:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BCB43D4C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:00:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (p54AAFA96.dip.t-dialin.net [84.170.250.150]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EACE30E16 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:03:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A473A8.6060700@incubus.de> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:02:48 +0200 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050526) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050606154959.24403.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050606154959.24403.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 OpenPGP: id=6FF22C9F; url=http://www.mkbuelow.net/mkbkeys Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:00:25 -0000 yuval levy wrote: > It is the market share that speaks for the silent > majority who values and uses such a GUI. A good part of the world's population cannot read and lives on a bowl of rice per day. Do you consider this to be a worthwile goal to adopt aswell? mkb. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 17:37:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0606916A41F for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:37:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from S2.cableone.net (smtp2.cableone.net [24.116.0.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9333D43D4C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:37:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.local.lan (unverified [24.119.122.41]) by S2.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S2) with ESMTP id 22151531 for multiple; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:15:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:40:42 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: yuval levy Message-ID: <20050606124042.3e9e1451@vixen42.local.lan> In-Reply-To: <20050606154959.24403.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <42A4699F.8070209@incubus.de> <20050606154959.24403.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.11 (GTK+ 2.6.7; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 1, First 18, in=25, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 24.119.122.41 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthias Buelow Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:37:34 -0000 On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT) yuval levy wrote: > --- Matthias Buelow wrote: > > > Yuval Levy wrote: > > > > > Usability > > > is a count on which FreeBSD has weaknesses, > > > especially in the eye of the > > > large segment of users who value a GUI, i.e. those > > > coming from the Windows world. > > > > Maybe, but I only speak for myself, and not for that > > large segment of > > users who value a [Windows-style] GUI. > > It is the market share that speaks for the silent > majority who values and uses such a GUI. > > > I always found X11 more useful > > than Windows, if only because I could resize dialog > > windows, something > > that still doesn't seem to have made it into many > > Windows programs. > > Agree that Windows has a lot of nuisances, besides, it > always sticks in my face and interrupts me. > Unfortunately most GUIs do, making multitasking a > pain. > > I personally find the differences between the existing > GUIs less important than the applications that run on > them. I take whatever there is for a default, as 90% > of the users do (according to usability lab results). > > So I use Windows, I use Gnome (at least I think this > is the default of Fedora Core 3) and I sometimes use > KDE (default of Knoppix?). I have heard of X11 but I > do not know much about it. Is it the underlying layer > to both Gnome and KDE? No offense meant, but the > further away from the application, the least I know. I > am a dummy by choice. Yeah, X11 is what is used to display the graphics. A tool kit is then used to make that job simpler. The toolkit used by Gnome is GTK+ and for KDE it is QT. It is a rather nice system, despite what you hear from all the idiots on slashdot and ect. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 16:40:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6624016A41C; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:40:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cbsplxsnxwud@fusemail.com) Received: from pool-71-100-197-167.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net (pool-71-100-197-167.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.100.197.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECD2743D5C; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:40:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cbsplxsnxwud@fusemail.com) Received: from laptop ([140.152.98.38]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.41.21 201-253-122-122-107-20011231) with ESMTP id <26709628193756.XGE2777.@jive> for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:40:10 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:40:10 -0800 Message-ID: <1092404610.3c1e9e7a4c3e2@webmail.avalon.net> From: "Janelle Saunders" To: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: KYX-CP/M FNORD-5607 Cc: java@freebsd.org, security-officer@freebsd.org, freebsd-admin@freebsd.org, niklas@freebsd.org, kensmith@freebsd.org Subject: Ever wanted a fuckfriend? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:40:39 -0000 There is this free date site filled with a bunch of sexoholics. No flowers, no walk on the beach, just meet up for sex :) There are also some people who want serious relationships though So if you want a long-termer, or a one-nighter, you got it ;) Whatever floats your boat pretty much! http://www.onlyliveonce.net/