From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 24 23:41:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255E616A41F for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:41:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidxu@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <435D7139.6030801@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:41:45 +0800 From: David Xu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050806 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:41:38 -0000 Folks, For years development, we now have libpthread and libthr, libc_r does not support SMP or multi-core processor, also it has many bugs (still in our bug database), also threads@ developers seems not have interest to maintain it, it is doomed, so I would like to disconnect it from buildworld, and sometimes later, I would like to remove it. David Xu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 24 23:51:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C912016A41F; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:51:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567C843D45; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:51:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.13.5/8.13.5/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id j9ONp6N8027919; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:51:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: David Xu In-Reply-To: <435D7139.6030801@freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.ntplx.net) Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:51:07 -0000 On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: > Folks, > > For years development, we now have libpthread and libthr, > libc_r does not support SMP or multi-core processor, also it has > many bugs (still in our bug database), also threads@ developers > seems not have interest to maintain it, it is doomed, so I would > like to disconnect it from buildworld, and sometimes later, I would > like to remove it. Deprecate in 6.x and remove in 7.0? Someone might be able to make a port out of it also. -- DE From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 11:06:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C25116A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:06:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A42D43D53; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:06:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410F346BB0; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:06:47 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Daniel Eischen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: arch@freebsd.org, David Xu Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:06:48 -0000 On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: >> Folks, >> >> For years development, we now have libpthread and libthr, libc_r does >> not support SMP or multi-core processor, also it has many bugs (still >> in our bug database), also threads@ developers seems not have interest >> to maintain it, it is doomed, so I would like to disconnect it from >> buildworld, and sometimes later, I would like to remove it. > > Deprecate in 6.x and remove in 7.0? > > Someone might be able to make a port out of it also. I'd like to keep it around in some form -- I recently ran a series of HTTP-related benchmarks and libc_r benchmarked signicantly faster than other libraries on both UP and SMP. I'm working to refine the benchmark for improved realism, and will see if that persists. However, when it comes to understanding scheduling and threading behavior, I think libc_r remains useful... Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 13:06:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E9016A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:06:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidxu@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:06:23 +0800 From: David Xu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050806 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:06:18 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Daniel Eischen wrote: > >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> For years development, we now have libpthread and libthr, libc_r >>> does not support SMP or multi-core processor, also it has many bugs >>> (still in our bug database), also threads@ developers seems not have >>> interest to maintain it, it is doomed, so I would like to disconnect >>> it from buildworld, and sometimes later, I would like to remove it. >> >> >> Deprecate in 6.x and remove in 7.0? >> >> Someone might be able to make a port out of it also. > > > I'd like to keep it around in some form -- I recently ran a series of > HTTP-related benchmarks and libc_r benchmarked signicantly faster than > other libraries on both UP and SMP. I'm working to refine the > benchmark for improved realism, and will see if that persists. > However, when it comes to understanding scheduling and threading > behavior, I think libc_r remains useful... > > Robert N M Watson > libc_r runs on single kernel thread, so if you are continue using libc_r, you are not testing TCP/IP with multithreads program, this may give you false data. Only kernel threads based server can test to see if the TCP/IP stack locking works well. David Xu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 13:48:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF8A16A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:48:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marcolz@stack.nl) Received: from mailhost.stack.nl (vaak.stack.nl [131.155.140.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C18443D49; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:48:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marcolz@stack.nl) Received: from hammer.stack.nl (hammer.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::153]) by mailhost.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2385A2FD1; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by hammer.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 333) id 9D6B8644A; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:34 +0200 From: Marc Olzheim To: David Xu Message-ID: <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD hammer.stack.nl 6.0-BETA4 FreeBSD 6.0-BETA4 X-URL: http://www.stack.nl/~marcolz/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org, Robert Watson Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:48:36 -0000 --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 09:06:23PM +0800, David Xu wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > >I'd like to keep it around in some form -- I recently ran a series of=20 > >HTTP-related benchmarks and libc_r benchmarked signicantly faster than= =20 > >other libraries on both UP and SMP. I'm working to refine the=20 > >benchmark for improved realism, and will see if that persists. =20 > >However, when it comes to understanding scheduling and threading=20 > >behavior, I think libc_r remains useful... > > > >Robert N M Watson > > > libc_r runs on single kernel thread, so if you are continue using libc_r, > you are not testing TCP/IP with multithreads program, this may give you > false data. Only kernel threads based server can test to see if the TCP/IP > stack locking works well. Erhm, its not about testing the TCP/IP stack locking, this is about stable and raw performance. Of course the single kernel thread might have a negative impact on total performance, but in our real world applications, I don't see a real performance boost from KSE. What I do see is easier and cleaner programming with KSE, but once you've done all the work to get usable libc_r based I/O, it works good. (Well, unless you need to fork+exec from a heavily mallocing thread system, without a patch similar to the one in PR threads/76690...) Marc --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFDXjeyezjnobFOgrERApNrAKDKz3rmw4DMpAz/aResf4552go9TACgqpHs pAdCxsv7NXp7J6NLYddcHFg= =Z7kg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 14:39:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5BA16A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:39:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660A243D45; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:39:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8208346B2C; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:39:33 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: David Xu In-Reply-To: <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20051025152746.F31152@fledge.watson.org> References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:39:36 -0000 On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: >>> Deprecate in 6.x and remove in 7.0? >>> >>> Someone might be able to make a port out of it also. >> >> I'd like to keep it around in some form -- I recently ran a series of >> HTTP-related benchmarks and libc_r benchmarked signicantly faster than >> other libraries on both UP and SMP. I'm working to refine the >> benchmark for improved realism, and will see if that persists. >> However, when it comes to understanding scheduling and threading >> behavior, I think libc_r remains useful... > > libc_r runs on single kernel thread, so if you are continue using > libc_r, you are not testing TCP/IP with multithreads program, this may > give you false data. Only kernel threads based server can test to see if > the TCP/IP stack locking works well. The goal of this set of tests was to look at performance, not stability, and was a comparative look at the relative performance of the libraries with identical workloads. Since I was interested in the impact of direct dispatch in the network stack, which affects scheduling and how workload is assigned to threads, I felt looking simultaneously at the threading model was important. I run most of my thread related tests (performance and stability) using all available threading libraries, although I don't currently consider case where system scope threads are forced in libpthread, and the results depend a lot on the nature of the workload. To be honest, I was quite surprised by how much better performance was with libc_r for the HTTP-related tests, but due to being pretty busy the last few weeks, haven't had a chance to figure out why as yet. I hope hopes of investigating more thoroughly in the next couple of weeks. The load below is generated by pairing a multi-threaded http client on one machine, and a multi-threaded http server on another machine. I need to clean up the server a bit, and also add a forked execution mode. My anticipation is that, due to reduced contention on file descriptor array locks for processes, it may actually be faster forked than threaded, and lead to SMP showing improved performance. So while the tests need refinement, the results are still quite interesting. Another interesting observation from these tests is that libthr seemed to outperform libpthread on UP, but vice versa on SMP. Robert N M Watson 7.x UP Queued Dispatch: x httpd_libc_r_queue + httpd_libpthread_queue * httpd_libthr_queue +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |++ * * * xxx| |+++ * ** ** * * * * xxx| ||A |_____MA_____| |A|| +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ N Min Max Median Avg Stddev x 12 11369 11427 11395 11395.25 20.307298 + 12 9636 9687 9647 9648.5 14.343196 Difference at 95.0% confidence -1746.75 +/- 14.8851 -15.3288% +/- 0.130626% (Student's t, pooled s = 17.58) * 12 9842 10372 10025 10046.917 158.16186 Difference at 95.0% confidence -1348.33 +/- 95.4708 -11.8324% +/- 0.837812% (Student's t, pooled s = 112.755) 7.x UP Direct Dispatch: x httpd_libc_r_direct + httpd_libpthread_direct * httpd_libthr_direct +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |++ * x | |++ * * * xxx| |++ * * * * ** * * xxx| ||A |_____A__M_| |A|| +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ N Min Max Median Avg Stddev x 12 11463 11506 11487 11484.083 12.42767 + 12 9866 9899 9884 9881.6667 10.464949 Difference at 95.0% confidence -1602.42 +/- 9.72722 -13.9534% +/- 0.0847018% (Student's t, pooled s = 11.4883) * 12 10463 10869 10759 10686.667 133.98055 Difference at 95.0% confidence -797.417 +/- 80.5601 -6.94367% +/- 0.701494% (Student's t, pooled s = 95.1452) 7.x SMP Queued Dispatch: x httpd_libc_r_queue + httpd_libpthread_queue * httpd_libthr_queue +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | * ++ x| | * ++ x| | * ++ xx| |*** ++ xx| |*** ++ xx| |*** ++ xx| ||A| |A |A| +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ N Min Max Median Avg Stddev x 12 10573 10665 10642 10631.833 27.259138 + 12 7591 7620 7605 7604.5833 9.6996564 Difference at 95.0% confidence -3027.25 +/- 17.3228 -28.4735% +/- 0.162933% (Student's t, pooled s = 20.459) * 12 5400 5548 5460 5467.25 48.028637 Difference at 95.0% confidence -5164.58 +/- 33.0639 -48.5766% +/- 0.31099% (Student's t, pooled s = 39.05) 7.x SMP Direct Dispatch: x httpd_libc_r_direct + httpd_libpthread_direct * httpd_libthr_direct +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | * + xx| | * + xx| | *** ++ xx| |******* ++ xx| | |_A| |A A|| +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ N Min Max Median Avg Stddev x 12 10603 10649 10621 10620.333 13.865151 + 12 8664 8695 8676 8678.0833 10.569754 Difference at 95.0% confidence -1942.25 +/- 10.4383 -18.288% +/- 0.0982856% (Student's t, pooled s = 12.3281) * 12 7165 7449 7307 7297.25 77.255332 Difference at 95.0% confidence -3323.08 +/- 46.9927 -31.2898% +/- 0.442479% (Student's t, pooled s = 55.5006) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 14:45:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8550216A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3063C43D4C; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D484546B03; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:45:42 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Marc Olzheim In-Reply-To: <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> Message-ID: <20051025153950.S31152@fledge.watson.org> References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org, David Xu Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:43 -0000 On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Marc Olzheim wrote: >> libc_r runs on single kernel thread, so if you are continue using >> libc_r, you are not testing TCP/IP with multithreads program, this may >> give you false data. Only kernel threads based server can test to see >> if the TCP/IP stack locking works well. > > Erhm, its not about testing the TCP/IP stack locking, this is about > stable and raw performance. Of course the single kernel thread might > have a negative impact on total performance, but in our real world > applications, I don't see a real performance boost from KSE. > > What I do see is easier and cleaner programming with KSE, but once > you've done all the work to get usable libc_r based I/O, it works good. > (Well, unless you need to fork+exec from a heavily mallocing thread > system, without a patch similar to the one in PR threads/76690...) The change in performance from threading libraries varies for me a great deal by workload. I found that with MySQL, I did see significant improvements from switching to non-libc_r threading models, as the task was no longer blocked on synchronous I/O to disk. However, the results I posted in an earlier message illustrate a workload without synchronous blocking I/O, due to using sendfile() on a small set of files that basically live in the buffer cache. I've seen several workloads where using SMP improves performance, but in the test I posted earlier, SMP runs slower than UP, probably due to the fact that it's basically a test over overhead costs for context switch, system calls, and access to process data structures (such as file descriptors), so there's lots of room for overhead. I assume that the varying relative costs for libthr/libpthread/libc_r shed some light on things like the relative costs of system calls and context switches, as well as the degree to which the user and kernel schedulers can make effective use of available CPU resources. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 23:18:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613BD16A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:18:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidxu@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:18:33 +0800 From: David Xu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050806 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Olzheim References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> In-Reply-To: <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org, Robert Watson Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:18:25 -0000 Marc Olzheim wrote: >>libc_r runs on single kernel thread, so if you are continue using libc_r, >>you are not testing TCP/IP with multithreads program, this may give you >>false data. Only kernel threads based server can test to see if the TCP/IP >>stack locking works well. >> >> > >Erhm, its not about testing the TCP/IP stack locking, this is about >stable and raw performance. Of course the single kernel thread might >have a negative impact on total performance, but in our real world >applications, I don't see a real performance boost from KSE. > >What I do see is easier and cleaner programming with KSE, but once >you've done all the work to get usable libc_r based I/O, it works good. >(Well, unless you need to fork+exec from a heavily mallocing thread >system, without a patch similar to the one in PR threads/76690...) > >Marc > > What is raw performance? are you comparing it with RELENG-4, if you only need a single thread, why should we start SMP project ? I am interesting to see libthr is worse than libc_r in real world application, give us example. I have an example, run Dave's crew example from his book, libc_r just falls on its face. http://people.freebsd.org/~davidxu/ptest.tgz also, Robert can get better result if he does not use libc_r but use a state machine but not thread to serve http request like an example in ACE. David Xu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 23:21:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B34716A41F for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:21:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from daintree.corp.yahoo.com (daintree.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.52.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1846643D45 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:21:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by daintree.corp.yahoo.com (Postfix, from userid 2154) id E73671976C; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:21:10 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510251621.10384.peter@wemm.org> Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:21:11 -0000 On Tuesday 25 October 2005 06:06 am, David Xu wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Daniel Eischen wrote: > >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: > >>> Folks, > >>> > >>> For years development, we now have libpthread and libthr, libc_r > >>> does not support SMP or multi-core processor, also it has many > >>> bugs (still in our bug database), also threads@ developers seems > >>> not have interest to maintain it, it is doomed, so I would like > >>> to disconnect it from buildworld, and sometimes later, I would > >>> like to remove it. > >> > >> Deprecate in 6.x and remove in 7.0? > >> > >> Someone might be able to make a port out of it also. > > > > I'd like to keep it around in some form -- I recently ran a series > > of HTTP-related benchmarks and libc_r benchmarked signicantly > > faster than other libraries on both UP and SMP. I'm working to > > refine the benchmark for improved realism, and will see if that > > persists. However, when it comes to understanding scheduling and > > threading behavior, I think libc_r remains useful... > > > > Robert N M Watson > > libc_r runs on single kernel thread, so if you are continue using > libc_r, you are not testing TCP/IP with multithreads program, this > may give you false data. Only kernel threads based server can test to > see if the TCP/IP stack locking works well. libc_r is also a useful metric to measure the relative costs of the kernel threading libraries in certain circumstances. For a network based process, it can be win. Yes, the moment you mix in disk IO, then things fall apart, but it is still a useful baseline. Also, the only way to run a 32 bit threaded binary on amd64 is to use libmap32.conf to force the app to use libc_r. Neither libthr or libpthread work for 32 bit apps running on a 64 bit kernel. I'm ok with disconnecting it from the build by default, but I think its a little premature to remove it yet. Eventually yes, but not quite yet. Now of course if libthr could be made to work for 32 bit apps on a 64 bit kernel, then that particular objection of mine goes away. (libpthread is a major drama to get working) -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 23:24:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BC116A41F for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:24:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1106E43D49 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:24:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.13.5/8.13.5/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id j9PNOr4n012905; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:24:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: Peter Wemm In-Reply-To: <200510251621.10384.peter@wemm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.ntplx.net) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:24:55 -0000 On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Peter Wemm wrote: > > (libpthread is a major drama to get working) Curious... Why is that? -- DE From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 25 23:49:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6399016A41F; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:49:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from daintree.corp.yahoo.com (daintree.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.52.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3542043D46; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:49:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by daintree.corp.yahoo.com (Postfix, from userid 2154) id EE45F197A9; Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wemm To: Daniel Eischen Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:49:21 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510251649.21425.peter@wemm.org> Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:49:22 -0000 On Tuesday 25 October 2005 04:24 pm, Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Peter Wemm wrote: > > (libpthread is a major drama to get working) > > Curious... Why is that? Because kern_kse.c wants to do copyin/copyout of the 64 bit format thread mailboxes, even when the userland is expecting and using the 32 bit layout of mailboxes. Not to mention that the first item in one of the structs is a ucontext_t, which is different sizes on i386 and amd64. It might be possible to build a special hybrid 32 bit libpthread.so that uses the 64 bit layout of these structs. But then it has to convert the ucontext itself and deal with both formats. I expect libthr to be easier to get working because it doesn't have a binary blob for its communication format. I haven't checked for a while. It used to depend on the missing 32 bit wrappers for getcontext/setcontext/swapcontext. But those have been implemented now, there probably isn't much more work needed to get it working. But again, I haven't looked for a while. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 26 11:08:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CAC16A41F; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:08:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C9943D48; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:08:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA17D46B45; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:08:26 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: David Xu In-Reply-To: <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:08:30 -0000 On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: > What is raw performance? are you comparing it with RELENG-4, if you only > need a single thread, why should we start SMP project ? I am interesting > to see libthr is worse than libc_r in real world application, give us > example. I have an example, run Dave's crew example from his book, > libc_r just falls on its face. > http://people.freebsd.org/~davidxu/ptest.tgz also, Robert can get better > result if he does not use libc_r but use a state machine but not thread > to serve http request like an example in ACE. We both know that many things can be made faster by not using threading, but apparently that isn't deterrence to prevent people from using threads when in fact it hurts performance :-). Our goals are presumably to: - Provide improved programming tools and models so that people can write better/faster code. For example, adding KQueue, etc. - Make the commonly used programming tools and models as fast as we can. Just because people use threads where it doesn't always make sense doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make their applications faster. Threads are widely used not just because they offer parallelism, but also because they offer a programming model that is appealing. I'll try to set up and run Apache2 with various configurations as a substitute for the performance measurement httpd I have in src/tools/tools/netrate, and see how its mpms interact with our threading implementations. My increasing suspicion is that the performance issue for threads is heavy access to the file descriptor related locks, resulting in significant contention. I need to look at traces and profiling some more to decide which are the biggest problems, and whether there are useful ways to improve them that help. In the libthr vs. libpthread measurements, it could well be that libpthread reduces kernel lock contention by allowing a thread to compete less with itself for locks: i.e., it introduces additional kernel threads only when blocked on a real sleep, not a mutex wait, whereas with libthr, threads will yield to each other on a CPU as they sleep on mutexes, resulting in more mutex contention. This is just a conjecture, however. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 26 21:10:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8B116A420; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:10:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from daintree.corp.yahoo.com (daintree.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.52.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C41F43D48; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:10:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by daintree.corp.yahoo.com (Postfix, from userid 2154) id 425B019773; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:10:22 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510261410.23688.peter@wemm.org> Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , Robert Watson , David Xu , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:10:24 -0000 On Wednesday 26 October 2005 04:08 am, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: > > What is raw performance? are you comparing it with RELENG-4, if you > > only need a single thread, why should we start SMP project ? I am > > interesting to see libthr is worse than libc_r in real world > > application, give us example. I have an example, run Dave's crew > > example from his book, libc_r just falls on its face. > > http://people.freebsd.org/~davidxu/ptest.tgz also, Robert can get > > better result if he does not use libc_r but use a state machine but > > not thread to serve http request like an example in ACE. > > We both know that many things can be made faster by not using > threading, but apparently that isn't deterrence to prevent people > from using threads when in fact it hurts performance :-). Here's an example. fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~peter/pp.c peter@daintree[1:59pm]/tmp-160> ./pp_c_r -v PING-PONG CONFIGURATION: target (-i) = 1000000 ntables (-n) = 1 sleepms (-z) = 0 pthread_scope (-s) = process pthread_process (-p) = private concurrency (-c) = 0 stacksize (-S) = 0 2 threads initialised in 0ms 1 games completed in 1472ms Summary of all thread libraries: libc_r: 1472ms libpthread: 1658ms libthr: 8496ms Note the execution times.. libc_r is the fastest, followed closely by libpthread, and libthr is way behind. This is on a UP system. On SMP though, the numbers are very different. libpthread falls flat on its face. libthr holds up more gracefully, but is still slower than libc_r. On a 4-cpu system: libc_r: 1498ms libthr: 25462ms libpthread: 28104ms This is pure computationally intensive program. It excercises the locking mutexes. It certainly shows a worst-case for libthr and shows how libpthread doesn't handle SMP scheduling well either. It is especially embarresing because libc_r is a single process, while libthr and libpthread are using two cpus concurrently. This is a good example of why libc_r should not be removed. We need it to show baseline values. By all means, don't build it by default. But don't remove it entirely. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 26 21:10:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8B116A420; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:10:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from daintree.corp.yahoo.com (daintree.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.52.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C41F43D48; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:10:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by daintree.corp.yahoo.com (Postfix, from userid 2154) id 425B019773; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:10:22 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510261410.23688.peter@wemm.org> Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , Robert Watson , David Xu , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:10:24 -0000 On Wednesday 26 October 2005 04:08 am, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: > > What is raw performance? are you comparing it with RELENG-4, if you > > only need a single thread, why should we start SMP project ? I am > > interesting to see libthr is worse than libc_r in real world > > application, give us example. I have an example, run Dave's crew > > example from his book, libc_r just falls on its face. > > http://people.freebsd.org/~davidxu/ptest.tgz also, Robert can get > > better result if he does not use libc_r but use a state machine but > > not thread to serve http request like an example in ACE. > > We both know that many things can be made faster by not using > threading, but apparently that isn't deterrence to prevent people > from using threads when in fact it hurts performance :-). Here's an example. fetch http://people.freebsd.org/~peter/pp.c peter@daintree[1:59pm]/tmp-160> ./pp_c_r -v PING-PONG CONFIGURATION: target (-i) = 1000000 ntables (-n) = 1 sleepms (-z) = 0 pthread_scope (-s) = process pthread_process (-p) = private concurrency (-c) = 0 stacksize (-S) = 0 2 threads initialised in 0ms 1 games completed in 1472ms Summary of all thread libraries: libc_r: 1472ms libpthread: 1658ms libthr: 8496ms Note the execution times.. libc_r is the fastest, followed closely by libpthread, and libthr is way behind. This is on a UP system. On SMP though, the numbers are very different. libpthread falls flat on its face. libthr holds up more gracefully, but is still slower than libc_r. On a 4-cpu system: libc_r: 1498ms libthr: 25462ms libpthread: 28104ms This is pure computationally intensive program. It excercises the locking mutexes. It certainly shows a worst-case for libthr and shows how libpthread doesn't handle SMP scheduling well either. It is especially embarresing because libc_r is a single process, while libthr and libpthread are using two cpus concurrently. This is a good example of why libc_r should not be removed. We need it to show baseline values. By all means, don't build it by default. But don't remove it entirely. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 26 21:17:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E150C16A423; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:17:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4D743D45; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:17:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6145D46B3C; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:17:56 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Peter Wemm In-Reply-To: <200510261410.23688.peter@wemm.org> Message-ID: <20051026221511.R31152@fledge.watson.org> References: <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> <200510261410.23688.peter@wemm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org, David Xu , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:17:58 -0000 On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Peter Wemm wrote: > This is pure computationally intensive program. It excercises the > locking mutexes. It certainly shows a worst-case for libthr and shows > how libpthread doesn't handle SMP scheduling well either. It is > especially embarresing because libc_r is a single process, while libthr > and libpthread are using two cpus concurrently. > > This is a good example of why libc_r should not be removed. We need it > to show baseline values. > > By all means, don't build it by default. But don't remove it entirely. Similar properties can be explored using "juggle" and "thr_pipeline", which look at the performance of IPC between threads, and the performance of pthread'd data processing pipelines in microbenchmark form: http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/benchmarks/ juggle tries a number of IPC methods, and illustrates how some of them do better for bigger data operations, some for smaller, some on UP, some on SMP, etc. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 26 21:17:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E150C16A423; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:17:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4D743D45; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:17:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6145D46B3C; Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:17:56 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Peter Wemm In-Reply-To: <200510261410.23688.peter@wemm.org> Message-ID: <20051026221511.R31152@fledge.watson.org> References: <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> <200510261410.23688.peter@wemm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org, David Xu , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:17:58 -0000 On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Peter Wemm wrote: > This is pure computationally intensive program. It excercises the > locking mutexes. It certainly shows a worst-case for libthr and shows > how libpthread doesn't handle SMP scheduling well either. It is > especially embarresing because libc_r is a single process, while libthr > and libpthread are using two cpus concurrently. > > This is a good example of why libc_r should not be removed. We need it > to show baseline values. > > By all means, don't build it by default. But don't remove it entirely. Similar properties can be explored using "juggle" and "thr_pipeline", which look at the performance of IPC between threads, and the performance of pthread'd data processing pipelines in microbenchmark form: http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/benchmarks/ juggle tries a number of IPC methods, and illustrates how some of them do better for bigger data operations, some for smaller, some on UP, some on SMP, etc. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 01:05:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F01A16A41F; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:05:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidxu@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <436027E6.8080604@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:05:42 +0800 From: David Xu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050806 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:05:32 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > ... > I'll try to set up and run Apache2 with various configurations as a > substitute for the performance measurement httpd I have in > src/tools/tools/netrate, and see how its mpms interact with our > threading implementations. > > My increasing suspicion is that the performance issue for threads is > heavy access to the file descriptor related locks, resulting in > significant contention. I need to look at traces and profiling some > more to decide which are the biggest problems, and whether there are > useful ways to improve them that help. In the libthr vs. libpthread > measurements, it could well be that libpthread reduces kernel lock > contention by allowing a thread to compete less with itself for locks: > i.e., it introduces additional kernel threads only when blocked on a > real sleep, not a mutex wait, whereas with libthr, threads will yield > to each other on a CPU as they sleep on mutexes, resulting in more > mutex contention. This is just a conjecture, however. > You sample program is nothing to do with libpthread or libthr, you never have userland locking code, in kernel they should be same, in fact. I have done a simple test, on my dual PIII machine, libthr is faster than libpthread, if I use ULE, libpthread is far behind than libthr, I recommend you to try different file sizes, I have got very different result, for small file size, e.g /usr/src/sys/sys/umtx.h, libthr beats libpthread, I can not test big file, because my 100M network is very easy to be saturated. If you suspect fd locking overhead, try to use fork() model, though it will introduce more context switch overhead, but it still worthy to do. > Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 10:31:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBF516A41F; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:31:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 499AD43D46; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:31:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20E346B0C; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:31:10 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: David Xu In-Reply-To: <436027E6.8080604@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20051027112622.O32255@fledge.watson.org> References: <20051025120538.K52058@fledge.watson.org> <435E2DCF.6080809@freebsd.org> <20051025134834.GB62148@stack.nl> <435EBD49.7090207@freebsd.org> <20051026120219.V32255@fledge.watson.org> <436027E6.8080604@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Marc Olzheim , Daniel Eischen , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libc_r is deprecated X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:31:11 -0000 On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, David Xu wrote: > You sample program is nothing to do with libpthread or libthr, you never > have userland locking code, in kernel they should be same, in fact. I > have done a simple test, on my dual PIII machine, libthr is faster than > libpthread, if I use ULE, libpthread is far behind than libthr, I > recommend you to try different file sizes, I have got very different > result, for small file size, e.g /usr/src/sys/sys/umtx.h, libthr beats > libpthread, I can not test big file, because my 100M network is very > easy to be saturated. > > If you suspect fd locking overhead, try to use fork() model, though it > will introduce more context switch overhead, but it still worthy to do. Well, I think the significant difference is the scheduling of when work is requested: specifically, that libthr with our current scheduler necessarily results with a process competing more with itself for locks associated with the process than libpthread, which tries not to run additional threads unless there's a gap in current execution by a current thread. The question, I suppose, is whether the answer to this problem lies in: - Helping the scheduler do a better job of discouraging that scenario. - Working to change the file descriptor model to reduce the impact of contention. - Accepting that it's inevitable in the threading model and looking for other things to improve. I would like to run the following additional tests: - Create a forked httpd microbenchmark to see what impact that has. I suspect a performance improvement. - Experiment with reducing contention on the file descriptor lock through hacking a bit on how file descriptor arrays work -- nothing production-worthy, but something that changes the potential contention enough to see if it helps. I.e., break the array into two parts locked using different locks. - Use ktrace, mutex profiling, or pmc to try and evaluate whether contention on the lock really is the cause. Alternatively, to roughly attempt to profile wait times for that lock. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 13:33:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F3116A41F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:33:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) Received: from einhorn.in-berlin.de (einhorn.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386D843D49 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:33:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) X-Envelope-From: gbergling@0xfce3.net X-Envelope-To: Received: from node26.0xfce3.net (port-212-202-34-7.dynamic.qsc.de [212.202.34.7]) (authenticated bits=128) by einhorn.in-berlin.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-4) with ESMTP id j9RDXhWP002927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:33:46 +0200 Received: from node26.0xfce3.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by node26.0xfce3.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RDXbkE000833 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:33:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) Received: (from gordon@localhost) by node26.0xfce3.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j9RDXbZQ000832 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:33:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) X-Authentication-Warning: node26.0xfce3.net: gordon set sender to gbergling@0xfce3.net using -f Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:33:37 +0200 From: Gordon Bergling To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Url: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.0-RC1 i386 X-Host-Uptime: 3:24PM up 14 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.08, 0.04, 0.05 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Score: (0.944) AWL,BAYES_40,FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang_at_IN-Berlin_e.V. on 192.109.42.8 Subject: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:33:51 -0000 Hi, I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs console code. While reading a lot of source code and add some code here and there I came to the idea how useful it whould be to have these changes for other BSDs and architectures != i386 on FreeBSD. I saw that OpenBSD and NetBSD use wscons. This whould make things for my project easier, if we whould have wscons in FreeBSD. What whould the FreeBSD project think about a ported wscons for FreeBSD? I know that wscons lags a few things, what we allready have at syscons, but people arn't forced to use it if they don't want to. best regards, Gordon -- Gordon Bergling http://www.0xFCE3.net/ PGP Fingerprint: 7732 9BB1 5013 AE8B E42C 28E0 93B9 D32B C76F 02A0 RIPE-HDL: MDTP-RIPE "There is no place like 127.0.0.0/8" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 13:38:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399FB16A41F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:38:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D898C43D45 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:38:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E762BC7A; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:38:43 +0000 (UTC) To: Gordon Bergling From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:33:37 +0200." <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:38:43 +0200 Message-ID: <22908.1130420323@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:38:46 -0000 In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes: >Hi, > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs >console code. Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we talk about here: When you say "console", do you mean "vga+keyboard" ? or "printf(9) destination" ? or "/dev/console" ? or all of the above ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 13:49:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1010E16A41F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:49:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) Received: from einhorn.in-berlin.de (einhorn.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E4E43D4C for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:49:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) X-Envelope-From: gbergling@0xfce3.net Received: from node26.0xfce3.net (port-212-202-34-7.dynamic.qsc.de [212.202.34.7]) (authenticated bits=128) by einhorn.in-berlin.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-4) with ESMTP id j9RDnPWP004353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:49:26 +0200 Received: from node26.0xfce3.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by node26.0xfce3.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RDnMap000940; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:49:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) Received: (from gordon@localhost) by node26.0xfce3.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j9RDnJmU000939; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:49:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) X-Authentication-Warning: node26.0xfce3.net: gordon set sender to gbergling@0xfce3.net using -f Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:49:19 +0200 From: Gordon Bergling To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> References: <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> <22908.1130420323@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <22908.1130420323@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Url: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.0-RC1 i386 X-Host-Uptime: 3:43PM up 32 mins, 3 users, load averages: 0.12, 0.07, 0.05 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Score: * (1.736) AWL,BAYES_50,FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang_at_IN-Berlin_e.V. on 192.109.42.8 Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:49:29 -0000 Hi, * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk): > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes: > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs > >console code. > > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we > talk about here: > > When you say "console", do you mean > "vga+keyboard" ? > or > "printf(9) destination" ? > or > "/dev/console" ? > or all of the above ? What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from "simple" vga + keyboard to a possible machine indepent framebuffer API. The case, why I am considering porting wscons, is that in this way all *BSD could benefit from this work. If they would adopt changes is another question. ;) Sorry, if that wasn't clear... best regards, Gordon -- Gordon Bergling http://www.0xFCE3.net/ PGP Fingerprint: 7732 9BB1 5013 AE8B E42C 28E0 93B9 D32B C76F 02A0 RIPE-HDL: MDTP-RIPE "There is no place like 127.0.0.0/8" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 13:54:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE4316A41F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:54:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984E143D48 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:54:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EECBC84; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:54:19 +0000 (UTC) To: Gordon Bergling From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:49:19 +0200." <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:54:19 +0200 Message-ID: <22975.1130421259@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:54:22 -0000 In message <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes: >> or all of the above ? > >What I mean was 'all of the above'. Cool! We need to talk, because I have my axe^H^H^Heditor aimed at the tty code and there is significant intersection and some nasty details we have to work out. Any chance you'll be at EuroBSDcon ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 15:36:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C5316A42F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:36:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39F143D49 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:36:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9RFXkq3042584; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:33:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:33:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20051027.093346.04239110.imp@bsdimp.com> To: gbergling@0xfce3.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> References: <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> <22908.1130420323@critter.freebsd.dk> <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (harmony.bsdimp.com [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:33:52 -0600 (MDT) Cc: phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:36:47 -0000 In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> Gordon Bergling writes: : Hi, : : * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk): : > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes: : > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs : > >console code. : > : > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we : > talk about here: : > : > When you say "console", do you mean : > "vga+keyboard" ? : > or : > "printf(9) destination" ? : > or : > "/dev/console" ? : > or all of the above ? : : What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize : FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from "simple" vga : + keyboard to a possible machine indepent framebuffer API. wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination. Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is really a framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga), with zero or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system. It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the 'console' issues that you've been keen on working out. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 17:07:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59D016A41F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:07:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) Received: from einhorn.in-berlin.de (einhorn.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BB443D48 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:07:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) X-Envelope-From: gbergling@0xfce3.net Received: from node26.0xfce3.net (port-212-202-34-7.dynamic.qsc.de [212.202.34.7]) (authenticated bits=128) by einhorn.in-berlin.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Debian-4) with ESMTP id j9RH7DM7029511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:07:16 +0200 Received: from node26.0xfce3.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by node26.0xfce3.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RH7DNJ001977; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:07:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) Received: (from gordon@localhost) by node26.0xfce3.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j9RH79HJ001976; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:07:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gbergling@0xfce3.net) X-Authentication-Warning: node26.0xfce3.net: gordon set sender to gbergling@0xfce3.net using -f Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:07:09 +0200 From: Gordon Bergling To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20051027170709.GB1901@node26.0xfce3.net> References: <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> <22908.1130420323@critter.freebsd.dk> <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> <20051027.093346.04239110.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20051027.093346.04239110.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Url: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.0-RC1 i386 X-Host-Uptime: 7:04PM up 3:54, 4 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Score: * (1.864) AWL,BAYES_50,FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang_at_IN-Berlin_e.V. on 192.109.42.8 Cc: gbergling@0xfce3.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:07:32 -0000 * Thus spake M. Warner Losh (imp@bsdimp.com): > In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> > Gordon Bergling writes: > : * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk): > : > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes: > : > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs > : > >console code. > : > > : > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we > : > talk about here: > : > > : > When you say "console", do you mean > : > "vga+keyboard" ? > : > or > : > "printf(9) destination" ? > : > or > : > "/dev/console" ? > : > or all of the above ? > : > : What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize > : FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from "simple" vga > : + keyboard to a possible machine indepent framebuffer API. > > wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination. > Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is really a > framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga), with zero > or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system. > > It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the 'console' > issues that you've been keen on working out. With other words, its something desireable to have at FreeBSD? best regards, Gordon -- Gordon Bergling http://www.0xFCE3.net/ PGP Fingerprint: 7732 9BB1 5013 AE8B E42C 28E0 93B9 D32B C76F 02A0 RIPE-HDL: MDTP-RIPE "There is no place like 127.0.0.0/8" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 18:48:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F1516A427 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:48:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from canning.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A83043D49 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:48:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from fw.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by canning.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43402A952 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:48:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by fw.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FE1E2B5 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9RIlTxv026136; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id j9RIlEl3026135; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Authentication-Warning: overcee.wemm.org: peter set sender to peter@wemm.org using -f From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:47:13 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> <20051027.093346.04239110.imp@bsdimp.com> <20051027170709.GB1901@node26.0xfce3.net> In-Reply-To: <20051027170709.GB1901@node26.0xfce3.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , phk@phk.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:48:34 -0000 On Thursday 27 October 2005 10:07 am, Gordon Bergling wrote: > * Thus spake M. Warner Losh (imp@bsdimp.com): > > In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> > > > > Gordon Bergling writes: > > : * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk): > > : > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes: > > : > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of > > : > > FreeBSDs console code. > > : > > > : > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about > > : > what we talk about here: > > : > > > : > When you say "console", do you mean > > : > "vga+keyboard" ? > > : > or > > : > "printf(9) destination" ? > > : > or > > : > "/dev/console" ? > > : > or all of the above ? > > : > > : What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize > > : FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from > > : "simple" vga + keyboard to a possible machine indepent > > : framebuffer API. > > > > wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination. > > Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is > > really a framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga), > > with zero or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system. > > > > It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the > > 'console' issues that you've been keen on working out. > > With other words, its something desireable to have at FreeBSD? A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit. Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha, sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere. It works with multiple mice and (supposedly) multiple keyboards, but that is more a function of external drivers (sysmouse and kbdmux etc). I think a wscons port was attempted before, early in the sparc64 days, but I don't remember that clearly. Also, there is ssh and serial console between old and new freebsd systems to keep in mind. Having the escape codes consistent is valueable in a data center where you have to tip/cu in text mode over a serial cable to another machine's console and all the control codes are in sync. What would a wscons port buy us anyway? I'm not trying to pour cold water on it, but I would like to know what we get in return for the pain. And how much pain there will be? Does it fix the printf/console/syslogd/dmesg/etc problems? I tend to think the latter group of problems are indepenant of what the actual console driver is. Things that are personally crucial to me: * Speed. (syscons is lightning fast) * text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works. * cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work. Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 19:57:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FF016A41F for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:57:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482C443D6A for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:57:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465CBBC7A; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:57:39 +0000 (UTC) To: Peter Wemm From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:47:13 PDT." <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:57:39 +0200 Message-ID: <25022.1130443059@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Gordon Bergling , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:57:44 -0000 In message <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org>, Peter Wemm writes: >A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all >the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change >without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit. Agreed. >Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things >like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha, >sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere. ...but studying the source code, one can't help wonder if somewhere inside there is a small device driver struggling to get out... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 20:09:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC49916A420 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:09:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF55D43D53 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:09:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9RK97O2045380; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:09:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20051027.140908.124085864.imp@bsdimp.com> To: phk@phk.freebsd.dk From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <25022.1130443059@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org> <25022.1130443059@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (harmony.bsdimp.com [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Cc: gbergling@0xfce3.net, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:09:46 -0000 In message: <25022.1130443059@critter.freebsd.dk> "Poul-Henning Kamp" writes: : In message <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org>, Peter Wemm writes: : : >A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all : >the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change : >without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit. : : Agreed. Actually, the input multiplexing is what interests me. The one or more keyboards part in my description means one or more at the same time... There are likewise a number of issues relating to usb mice/keyboards that are much better in uhid from NetBSD than from FreeBSD. This isn't so much about escape sequences and such. : >Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things : >like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha, : >sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere. : : ...but studying the source code, one can't help wonder if somewhere : inside there is a small device driver struggling to get out... wscons runs on more than just those systems and is a better match to the hardware abstractions in the non-vga world. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 09:53:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5566516A41F for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:53:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhay@meraka.csir.co.za) Received: from zibbi.meraka.csir.co.za (zibbi.meraka.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A743943D58 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:53:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhay@meraka.csir.co.za) Received: by zibbi.meraka.csir.co.za (Postfix, from userid 3973) id 3ACE633C84; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:52:54 +0200 (SAST) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:52:54 +0200 From: John Hay To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20051028095254.GA48727@zibbi.meraka.csir.co.za> References: <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org> <25022.1130443059@critter.freebsd.dk> <20051027.140908.124085864.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20051027.140908.124085864.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:53:45 -0000 > : > : >A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all > : >the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change > : >without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit. > : > : Agreed. > > Actually, the input multiplexing is what interests me. The one or > more keyboards part in my description means one or more at the same > time... There are likewise a number of issues relating to usb > mice/keyboards that are much better in uhid from NetBSD than from > FreeBSD. It would also be very nice if you could run multiple instances of it, so that you could hook multiple screens, keyboards and mice onto a machine and have more than one person work on it simultaneously. :-) John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@meraka.csir.co.za / jhay@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 15:45:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB0C16A423 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:45:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from mv.twc.weather.com (mv.twc.weather.com [65.212.71.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9F343D5F for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:45:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.50.41.234] (Not Verified[10.50.41.234]) by mv.twc.weather.com with NetIQ MailMarshal (v6, 0, 3, 8) id ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:02:13 -0400 From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:25:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net> <20051027170709.GB1901@node26.0xfce3.net> <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org> In-Reply-To: <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510281025.16527.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , phk@phk.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:45:39 -0000 On Thursday 27 October 2005 02:47 pm, Peter Wemm wrote: > On Thursday 27 October 2005 10:07 am, Gordon Bergling wrote: > > * Thus spake M. Warner Losh (imp@bsdimp.com): > > > In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net> > > > > > > Gordon Bergling writes: > > > : * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk): > > > : > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon > > Bergling writes: > > > : > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of > > > : > > FreeBSDs console code. > > > : > > > > : > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about > > > : > what we talk about here: > > > : > > > > : > When you say "console", do you mean > > > : > "vga+keyboard" ? > > > : > or > > > : > "printf(9) destination" ? > > > : > or > > > : > "/dev/console" ? > > > : > or all of the above ? > > > : > > > : What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize > > > : FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from > > > : "simple" vga + keyboard to a possible machine indepent > > > : framebuffer API. > > > > > > wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination. > > > Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is > > > really a framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga), > > > with zero or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system. > > > > > > It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the > > > 'console' issues that you've been keen on working out. > > > > With other words, its something desireable to have at FreeBSD? > > A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all > the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change > without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit. > > Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things > like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha, > sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere. > It works with multiple mice and (supposedly) multiple keyboards, but > that is more a function of external drivers (sysmouse and kbdmux etc). > I think a wscons port was attempted before, early in the sparc64 days, > but I don't remember that clearly. It is _really_ grotty on all but i386 and amd64 though. It would be nice to have a syscons replacement that truly does work well with framebuffers and isn't VGA centric. I think phk's console concerns are rather orthogonal to syscons vs. wscons. > Things that are personally crucial to me: > * Speed. (syscons is lightning fast) > * text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works. > * cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect > compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work. * truly supports framebuffers as well as displays that can render text directly (i.e. VGA, EGA, etc.) * allows displays, keyboards, and mice to be tied together in arbitrary combinations such that each "console" can consist of zero-or-more displays, keyboards, and mice with well-defined behavior for what state is shared vs. private when multiple objects of the same class are connected to a single console. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 17:24:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F5816A41F; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:24:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from babkin@verizon.net) Received: from vms042pub.verizon.net (vms042pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B2543D5A; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:24:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from babkin@verizon.net) Received: from vms073.mailsrvcs.net ([192.168.1.2]) by vms042.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPA id <0IP200JM9Z0DGK21@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:24:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:24:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Sergey Babkin To: John Baldwin , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-id: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: Gordon Bergling , phk@phk.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: babkin@users.sf.net List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:24:14 -0000 >From: John Baldwin >> Things that are personally crucial to me: >> * Speed. (syscons is lightning fast) >> * text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works. >> * cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect >> compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work. > > * truly supports framebuffers as well as displays that can render text > directly (i.e. VGA, EGA, etc.) > * allows displays, keyboards, and mice to be tied together in arbitrary > combinations such that each "console" can consist of zero-or-more > displays, keyboards, and mice with well-defined behavior for what > state is shared vs. private when multiple objects of the same class > are connected to a single console. And by default connects all the keyboards/mice to the first console. This makes the installs on the machines with USB-only keyboard transparent. * When entering panic/debugger mode the console should reset its video mode to the one where the panic information is visible. -SB From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 18:34:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3638D16A41F for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:34:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from mv.twc.weather.com (mv.twc.weather.com [65.212.71.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A4E43D46 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:34:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.50.41.234] (Not Verified[10.50.41.234]) by mv.twc.weather.com with NetIQ MailMarshal (v6, 0, 3, 8) id ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:51:05 -0400 From: John Baldwin To: babkin@users.sourceforge.net Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:35:40 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> In-Reply-To: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:34:19 -0000 On Friday 28 October 2005 01:24 pm, Sergey Babkin wrote: > >From: John Baldwin > > > >> Things that are personally crucial to me: > >> * Speed. (syscons is lightning fast) > >> * text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works. > >> * cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect > >> compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work. > > > > * truly supports framebuffers as well as displays that can render text > > directly (i.e. VGA, EGA, etc.) > > * allows displays, keyboards, and mice to be tied together in arbitrary > > combinations such that each "console" can consist of zero-or-more > > displays, keyboards, and mice with well-defined behavior for what > > state is shared vs. private when multiple objects of the same class > > are connected to a single console. > > And by default connects all the keyboards/mice to > the first console. This makes the installs on > the machines with USB-only keyboard transparent. Yes. > * When entering panic/debugger mode the console > should reset its video mode to the one where > the panic information is visible. I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know what X has done to the hardware unless you make X talk to the console driver to do everything. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 18:59:32 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4A016A41F for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:59:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B3C43D45 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:59:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s13so18607wxc for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=I1HO3c9CmvbrD2zQ3CtXJGYwkOr1sw/0mllt+3aSj9R1IpIqngHp3kfpxeuQ8UhjGim7N+rgkQ/AbmMCcL3tgLMhf061gGfFTpJCoyPeyOp49lKAu4t+YEz1HPU6f6PgBh50RDLtunezeMGk0dm/+fXi1DNt+YkvhTmFRZrmHzc= Received: by 10.70.109.20 with SMTP id h20mr414648wxc; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.13 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <84dead720510281159h71a1d6bfua0813835911fbb9b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:29:30 +0530 From: Joseph Koshy To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , babkin@users.sourceforge.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:59:32 -0000 > I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know > what X has done to the hardware unless you make X talk to the > console driver to do everything. How does MS implement their BSOD display mode? -- FreeBSD Volunteer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 19:10:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580C116A41F for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:10:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from newsletter@acsoftware.org) Received: from mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D93743D49 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:10:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from newsletter@acsoftware.org) Received: from aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20051028191052.LENX21883.mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:10:52 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.49] (really [82.12.175.204]) by aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20051028191052.HQWH26459.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@[192.168.1.49]> for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:10:52 +0100 Message-ID: <436277BB.2050308@acsoftware.org> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:10:51 +0100 From: Newsletter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Billionton LNA-100B pcmcia ethernet problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:10:54 -0000 hi! I have this Billionton LNA-100B pcmcia card, and freebsd seems able to recongise it when i insert the card but when i do ifconfig -a, it doesnt have that card in there and so, i dun hve any networking.... Here is the output when i insert the card... pccard0: mtu 1500 lo0: flags=8049 mtu 16384 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 inet6 :: 1 prefixlen 128 inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2 anyone know how can i configure this card?? btw, i am using freebsd 5.4 Thanks for any helps... Alan From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 19:16:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E57D16A41F; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:16:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from canning.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B429043D45; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:16:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from fw.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by canning.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A192A91A; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by fw.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EFAE2B5; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j9SJFJK9067425; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id j9SJF9I9067417; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:15:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Authentication-Warning: overcee.wemm.org: peter set sender to peter@wemm.org using -f From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:15:08 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> <84dead720510281159h71a1d6bfua0813835911fbb9b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <84dead720510281159h71a1d6bfua0813835911fbb9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510281215.08897.peter@wemm.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , babkin@users.sourceforge.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:16:15 -0000 On Friday 28 October 2005 11:59 am, Joseph Koshy wrote: > > I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know > > what X has done to the hardware unless you make X talk to the > > console driver to do everything. > > How does MS implement their BSOD display mode? They have device drivers from the vendors for each piece of hardware to change the display modes. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 19:25:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D44016A41F for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:25:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from mv.twc.weather.com (mv.twc.weather.com [65.212.71.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A5443D48 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:25:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.50.41.234] (Not Verified[10.50.41.234]) by mv.twc.weather.com with NetIQ MailMarshal (v6, 0, 3, 8) id ; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:42:18 -0400 From: John Baldwin To: Joseph Koshy Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:27:04 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> <84dead720510281159h71a1d6bfua0813835911fbb9b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <84dead720510281159h71a1d6bfua0813835911fbb9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200510281527.07095.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , babkin@users.sourceforge.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:25:44 -0000 On Friday 28 October 2005 02:59 pm, Joseph Koshy wrote: > > I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know > > what X has done to the hardware unless you make X talk to the > > console driver to do everything. > > How does MS implement their BSOD display mode? Their graphics driver stuff is in the kernel and not a separate user process like X? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 28 23:36:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E1616A48C; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:36:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from babkin@verizon.net) Received: from vms046pub.verizon.net (vms046pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D3843D48; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:36:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from babkin@verizon.net) Received: from verizon.net ([141.153.251.60]) by vms046.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPA id <0IP300LFKG9D8QA2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:36:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:36:49 -0400 From: Sergey Babkin Sender: root To: John Baldwin Message-id: <4362B611.B4A12AF8@verizon.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE i386) Content-type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en, ru References: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: Gordon Bergling , phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: babkin@users.sf.net List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:36:53 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > > On Friday 28 October 2005 01:24 pm, Sergey Babkin wrote: > > >From: John Baldwin > > > > > * When entering panic/debugger mode the console > > should reset its video mode to the one where > > the panic information is visible. > > I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know what X has done > to the hardware unless you make X talk to the console driver to do > everything. Can you re-initialize the device from scratch? My knowledge about the video hardware dates to SVGA times and even that is not too deep. Maybe provide a basic SVGA re-initialization routine on x86 and have an interface for the third-party in-kernel drivers that would contain the re-initialization routine. -SB From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 29 03:48:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC4016A422 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:48:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E4E43D45 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:48:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9T3kstU066167; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:46:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:46:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20051028.214658.93207877.imp@bsdimp.com> To: newsletter@acsoftware.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <436277BB.2050308@acsoftware.org> References: <436277BB.2050308@acsoftware.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (harmony.bsdimp.com [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:46:55 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Billionton LNA-100B pcmcia ethernet problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:48:47 -0000 In message: <436277BB.2050308@acsoftware.org> Newsletter writes: : hi! I have this Billionton LNA-100B pcmcia card, and freebsd seems able : to recongise it when i insert the card but when i do ifconfig -a, it : doesnt have that card in there and so, i dun hve any networking.... : : Here is the output when i insert the card... : : pccard0: mtu 1500 : lo0: flags=8049 mtu 16384 : inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 : inet6 :: 1 prefixlen 128 : inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2 : : : anyone know how can i configure this card?? btw, i am using freebsd 5.4 You need to have ed in your kernel. However, it would appear that this is a variation of this card that the FreeBSD kernel doesn't know about yet. Some versions of this card have a manufacturer id of 0x021b instead of 0xffff. I've added a new device ID to current for this. I'll see what I can do about back-porting it to 5.x, but I no longer have any 5.x laptops around for easy testing so that may take a while. To add support yourself, you'll need to add the following line to pccarddevs near the other billionton entries: product BILLIONTON LNA100B { "Billionton", "LNA-100B", NULL, NULL } Billionton LNA-100B And then add a line like the following to if_ed_pccard.c in the ed_card_products section: { PCMCIA_CARD(BILLIONTON, LNA100B, 0), NE2000DVF_AX88190}, near the other BIOLLIONTON lines. Rebuild, reinstall and try again. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 29 03:52:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53ACE16A41F; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:52:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38C643D45; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:52:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9T3ojhN066202; Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:50:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:50:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20051028.215049.102576958.imp@bsdimp.com> To: babkin@users.sourceforge.net, babkin@verizon.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <4362B611.B4A12AF8@verizon.net> References: <12768156.1130520253107.JavaMail.root@vms073.mailsrvcs.net> <200510281435.41700.jhb@freebsd.org> <4362B611.B4A12AF8@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (harmony.bsdimp.com [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:50:50 -0600 (MDT) Cc: gbergling@0xfce3.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wscons for FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 03:52:23 -0000 In message: <4362B611.B4A12AF8@verizon.net> Sergey Babkin writes: : John Baldwin wrote: : > : > On Friday 28 October 2005 01:24 pm, Sergey Babkin wrote: : > > >From: John Baldwin : > > > : : > > * When entering panic/debugger mode the console : > > should reset its video mode to the one where : > > the panic information is visible. : > : > I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know what X has done : > to the hardware unless you make X talk to the console driver to do : > everything. : : Can you re-initialize the device from scratch? My knowledge : about the video hardware dates to SVGA times and even that : is not too deep. : : Maybe provide a basic SVGA re-initialization routine on x86 and have : an interface for the third-party in-kernel drivers that : would contain the re-initialization routine. When this has come up in the past, those in the know say that it takes card specific registers and knowledge to reset these cards' video modes. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 29 10:51:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA1516A41F for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:51:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from newsletter@acsoftware.org) Received: from mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9986943D45 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:51:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from newsletter@acsoftware.org) Received: from aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20051029105107.XKBA21883.mta07-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:51:07 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.49] (really [82.12.175.204]) by aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20051029105107.WHVV8786.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@[192.168.1.49]>; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:51:07 +0100 Message-ID: <43635417.5000509@acsoftware.org> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:51:03 +0100 From: Newsletter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <436277BB.2050308@acsoftware.org> <20051028.214658.93207877.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20051028.214658.93207877.imp@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Billionton LNA-100B pcmcia ethernet problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:51:09 -0000 Hi! So, is that mean, it should work in the final version of freebsd 6?? if yes, I can wait until version 6, since i am not in the hurry to use it... :D thanks! Alan M. Warner Losh wrote: > You need to have ed in your kernel. > > However, it would appear that this is a variation of this card that > the FreeBSD kernel doesn't know about yet. Some versions of this card > have a manufacturer id of 0x021b instead of 0xffff. I've added a new > device ID to current for this. I'll see what I can do about > back-porting it to 5.x, but I no longer have any 5.x laptops around > for easy testing so that may take a while. > > To add support yourself, you'll need to add the following line to > pccarddevs near the other billionton entries: > > product BILLIONTON LNA100B { "Billionton", "LNA-100B", NULL, NULL } Billionton LNA-100B > > And then add a line like the following to if_ed_pccard.c in the > ed_card_products section: > { PCMCIA_CARD(BILLIONTON, LNA100B, 0), NE2000DVF_AX88190}, > near the other BIOLLIONTON lines. Rebuild, reinstall and try again. > > Warner > > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 29 22:27:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC63316A420 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:27:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8C343D49 for ; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:27:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9TMQRGA078835; Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:26:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:26:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20051029.162630.97041127.imp@bsdimp.com> To: newsletter@acsoftware.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <43635417.5000509@acsoftware.org> References: <436277BB.2050308@acsoftware.org> <20051028.214658.93207877.imp@bsdimp.com> <43635417.5000509@acsoftware.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (harmony.bsdimp.com [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:26:27 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Billionton LNA-100B pcmcia ethernet problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:27:54 -0000 In message: <43635417.5000509@acsoftware.org> Newsletter writes: : Hi! So, is that mean, it should work in the final version of freebsd 6?? : if yes, I can wait until version 6, since i am not in the hurry to use : it... :D I'm afraid that 6.0 is very very advanced. I think the final version is building right now. As such, I think it is too late to get this into 6.0. If 6.0 unexpectedly slips out, I'll try for it. However, it should be in 6.1 for sure. Warner