From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 25 00:35:26 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C1616A407 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:35:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB2413C4C7 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:35:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 71so1308036ugh for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:35:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lvqNUp15JqSPTtB/HvESZk8oyAX24qPAcGpM9MsVgFya2QioB6i/atAqgeh12Ui5rGFJhOHdywj296auBPgTJ4yzsK04Kj+JM6J95vtnVi0+BZYcUJRIXqyRNqoFBdoXIPXi4ISOdO18nt4ZmuaM04D4SIRcdf6kzmEr01P5abs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=US0GcAfFjDQV54iR32kjya4aX1fNuzU3mOW4AidtTUS1bxQiPAbdXbBXjLNZ/Iodq1hfm3qwB2R9oG37fgVTVugFPsXLrOV3MBVwcpIXnyE3clzKGviflQqF1hYxS48YJIkBDOBBCyKCZGfKQ8BR2XAGPG5HN59iRWg6BBUPlGM= Received: by 10.67.98.9 with SMTP id a9mr9434067ugm.1174782925540; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.123.111? ( [84.0.99.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id g1sm22058409muf.2007.03.24.17.35.24; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4605C415.7000206@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:36:37 +0100 From: deeptech71@gmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:35:27 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits > are used for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. > Is that sufficient for you? What the hell for? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 25 19:00:43 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7987716A402 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:00:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E030213C45E for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:00:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (crytyt@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2PJ0aGK058301; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:00:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l2PJ0Z8w058298; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:00:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:00:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, deeptech71@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <4605C415.7000206@gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:00:41 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, deeptech71@gmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:00:43 -0000 deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits > > are used for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. > > Is that sufficient for you? > > What the hell for? What's your problem? In your first mail you seemed to be complaining that there isn't sufficient range and accuracy in the time stamps. I explained to you that there is indeed more accuracy than you thought, and now you complain that there's too much of it? To answer your question: Modern hardware is already fast enough that sub-microsecond accuracy is required. Also keep in mind that it is undesirable to change the on-disk- format of a file system every year. When the UFS2 format was designed, it should be sufficient at least for the needs of ten years in the future, possibly even more. So the provision for nanosecond accuracy is not far off. Ideally, two consecutive, non-parallel operations should give two different timestamps. That applies to creating or touching a file or other kind of resource, or even just calling the gettimeofday() function from within the same thread, or whatever. In reality that isn't the case today for FreeBSD for other reasons, but the timestamp accuracy of UFS2 would certainly be sufficient for that. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "C++ is over-complicated nonsense. And Bjorn Shoestrap's book a danger to public health. I tried reading it once, I was in recovery for months." -- Cliff Sarginson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 25 19:40:33 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35BD16A404 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:40:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from igloo.linux.gr (igloo.linux.gr [62.1.205.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4D813C4C4 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:40:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from kobe.laptop (dialup96.ach.sch.gr [81.186.70.96]) (authenticated bits=128) by igloo.linux.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id l2PJdxOk018682 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:40:07 +0300 Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2PJdqKb080110; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:39:53 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l2PJSrAr077947; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:28:53 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:28:53 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, deeptech71@gmail.com Message-ID: <20070325192852.GA57485@kobe.laptop> References: <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> <4605C415.7000206@gmail.com> <46042B3A.7070100@gmail.com> <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4605C415.7000206@gmail.com> <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Hellug-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Hellug-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-3.671, required 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, AWL 0.53, BAYES_00 -2.60, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE 0.20) X-Hellug-MailScanner-From: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr X-Spam-Status: No Cc: Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:40:33 -0000 On 2007-03-24 17:04, Oliver Fromme wrote: > deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > > UNIX Timestamp: > > 32 bits, starts from year 1970, ticks every second > > capable of representing the time from 1970 to 2106 > > No, the UNIX time_t is a signed value, so it ranges from 1901 to 2038 > when it's a 32bit int (such as on FreeBSD; Solaris has a 64bit time_t, > for example): > > $ date -r $(( - 2 ** 31 )) > Fri Dec 13 21:45:52 CET 1901 > $ date -r $(( 2 ** 31 - 1 )) > Tue Jan 19 04:14:07 CET 2038 > > (I'm using a privately patched version of /bin/sh which knows the "**" > operator, among other things.) > > > 'til then, computers will change > > sufficient for file timestamps, comparing file times > > FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits are used > for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. Is that sufficient > for you? > > See for the actual definitions: On 2007-03-25 01:36, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >Oliver Fromme wrote: >> FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits are used >> for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. Is that sufficient >> for you? > > What the hell for? ``Just because it can.'' Seriously now, please show some more respect to Oliver and the time he spent to research and write up a very informative reply. It's not very nice to post an original email like the one you posted, posing a relatively unintelligible question, and then reply ``what the hell for?'' to Oliver's email. At least *he* tried to find out something by reading the source, he wrote a reply with details pointers to places where you can find out more for yourself, and was enough of a gentleman to *avoid* using potentially offensive words. Let's be a little more cordial to the ones who help us, shall we? - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 25 20:15:03 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786DB16A402 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:15:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D02813C448 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:15:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k27so2455470nfc for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=A9Cp8MrJGM8HuLTAEkCpg+r9LnFste9k3iUAU19zMj6vGjzkKcCPFmnKWEPE0ZeOyiVvUk9l5Pod6vavq0n5xdIMdYn/L4bysAnTCxl+dAxhNgR0SxC9WqPaE0o4wesyqkgIMVNTaCZTrCHtWmq3oHDr3LSpOlSsUwRbP5GO1os= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sZzhjLaQQIC5f8EJ0kN+1dCeAj/NpIFBnEb+j02t2NtcSirbfR4x0VwVIY6rXfva0YA1l0VOLcDTtevHoi8EILq/cDEIHSMyIb4259S9UPOfLnp1Ub9JjjT3UFsIILEuiSPlDJbeL/ci1esx6DaTbIF48Xb14pEhRaFky2sHzfU= Received: by 10.82.178.11 with SMTP id a11mr12062510buf.1174853701743; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.123.111? ( [81.182.8.157]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id y6sm18464995mug.2007.03.25.13.14.58; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:16:14 +0200 From: deeptech71@gmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:15:03 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > What's your problem? In your first mail you seemed to be > complaining that there isn't sufficient range and accuracy > in the time stamps. I explained to you that there is > indeed more accuracy than you thought, and now you complain > that there's too much of it? I am in not complaining. Just wanted to talk about something, it's what freebsd-chat is for. I raised a topic, we started talking about it. Let me rework my comment, to get the more real meaning of it: IMO, that is redunant. (Don't you think so?) > To answer your question: Modern hardware is already fast > enough that sub-microsecond accuracy is required. Also > keep in mind that it is undesirable to change the on-disk- > format of a file system every year. When the UFS2 format > was designed, it should be sufficient at least for the > needs of ten years in the future, possibly even more. > So the provision for nanosecond accuracy is not far off. Don't know if I'm right, but in the hardware used nowadays, the time can change every several hundred nanoseconds. That is, can represent every microsecond with, say, 0.75 accuracy, for tens of microseconds that's 0.975, 0.9975 for hundreds, and 0.99975 for milliseconds. > Ideally, two consecutive, non-parallel operations should > give two different timestamps. That applies to creating or > touching a file or other kind of resource, or even just > calling the gettimeofday() function from within the same > thread, or whatever. In reality that isn't the case today > for FreeBSD for other reasons, but the timestamp accuracy > of UFS2 would certainly be sufficient for that. Actually, my intend wasn't to use it in filesystems, but server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers must be restarted every 3 weeks Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2007-03-25 01:36, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >> Oliver Fromme wrote: >>> FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits are used >>> for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. Is that sufficient >>> for you? >> What the hell for? > > ``Just because it can.'' Good. :] 2x64bit for x64? > Seriously now, please show some more respect to Oliver and the time he > spent to research and write up a very informative reply. It's not very > nice to post an original email like the one you posted, posing a > relatively unintelligible question, and then reply ``what the hell > for?'' to Oliver's email. At least *he* tried to find out something by > reading the source, he wrote a reply with details pointers to places > where you can find out more for yourself, and was enough of a gentleman > to *avoid* using potentially offensive words. > > Let's be a little more cordial to the ones who help us, shall we? And I appreciate your hard work trying to help me. Perhaps my comment was somewhat offensive. I appologize. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 25 21:58:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF72616A403 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:58:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from igloo.linux.gr (igloo.linux.gr [62.1.205.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5206C13C455 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:58:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from kobe.laptop (dialup96.ach.sch.gr [81.186.70.96]) (authenticated bits=128) by igloo.linux.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id l2PLvcx8026483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:57:46 +0300 Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2PLvW1q019138; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:57:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l2PLvVVn019121; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:57:31 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:57:31 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: deeptech71@gmail.com Message-ID: <20070325215731.GA1517@kobe.laptop> References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> X-Hellug-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Hellug-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-3.677, required 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, AWL 0.52, BAYES_00 -2.60, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE 0.20) X-Hellug-MailScanner-From: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr X-Spam-Status: No Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:58:07 -0000 On 2007-03-25 22:16, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >Oliver Fromme wrote: >> Ideally, two consecutive, non-parallel operations should give >> two different timestamps. That applies to creating or >> touching a file or other kind of resource, or even just >> calling the gettimeofday() function from within the same >> thread, or whatever. In reality that isn't the case today for >> FreeBSD for other reasons, but the timestamp accuracy of UFS2 >> would certainly be sufficient for that. > > Actually, my intend wasn't to use it in filesystems, but > server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers > must be restarted every 3 weeks That's a bug in the applications themselves. The gettimeofday() call in any modern UNIX returns a `struct timeval', which contains *both* a time_t value of the current time with second-level accuracy and a tv_usec member with millisecond accuracy (or at least an approximation of a timestamp with millisecond accuracy). Any userlevel application which uses userlevel time counters and requires a restart every two or three weeks, because these userlevel timecounters have rolled back to zero, is broken and should be fixed. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 11:02:55 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074FE16A401 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:02:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765EB13C484 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:02:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (xabufw@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2QB2lqa008130; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:02:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l2QB2lKL008129; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:02:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:02:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200703261102.l2QB2lKL008129@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, deeptech71@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:02:52 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, deeptech71@gmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:02:55 -0000 deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > What's your problem? In your first mail you seemed to be > > complaining that there isn't sufficient range and accuracy > > in the time stamps. I explained to you that there is > > indeed more accuracy than you thought, and now you complain > > that there's too much of it? > > I am in not complaining. Just wanted to talk about something, it's > what freebsd-chat is for. I raised a topic, we started talking about > it. OK. it wasn't clear from your first mail what your actual intent was, and your comment sounded a bit unfriendly. > Let me rework my comment, to get the more real meaning of it: IMO, > that is redunant. (Don't you think so?) No, I don't think so. First of all, it's always desireable to have as much accuracy as possible, as long as the overhead for it is not prohibitively large. Second, the operating system should not make arbitrary assumptions about the accuracy requirements of any applications. Sure, there are certainly applications that don't care about one second more or less. But there are also applications that require high accuracy. For example, ntpd(8) requires a high precision of the system clock, while make(1) benefits from high precision of file time stamps. Therefore, applications should be able to get the accuracy they require, and not be limited by the operating system if possible. > > To answer your question: Modern hardware is already fast > > enough that sub-microsecond accuracy is required. Also > > keep in mind that it is undesirable to change the on-disk- > > format of a file system every year. When the UFS2 format > > was designed, it should be sufficient at least for the > > needs of ten years in the future, possibly even more. > > So the provision for nanosecond accuracy is not far off. > > Don't know if I'm right, but in the hardware used nowadays, the time > can change every several hundred nanoseconds. No, it can change within picoseconds. For example, the TSC counters in modern GHz processors increase several times per nanosecond (i.e. once every few hundred picoseconds), depending on their clock rate. > > Ideally, two consecutive, non-parallel operations should > > give two different timestamps. That applies to creating or > > touching a file or other kind of resource, or even just > > calling the gettimeofday() function from within the same > > thread, or whatever. In reality that isn't the case today > > for FreeBSD for other reasons, but the timestamp accuracy > > of UFS2 would certainly be sufficient for that. > > Actually, my intend wasn't to use it in filesystems, Well, you mentioned time stamps, so I assumed that they were your primary concern. > but server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers > must be restarted every 3 weeks I don't understand qwhat you're saying there. Why do they have to be restarted every three weeks? I don't see a reason for that. If an application (game or other, doesn't matter) requires time stamps with certain properties, then they should use appropriate types for it. If it doesn't, then it's a bug in that application. The operating system should only provide ways to retrieve sufficiently accurate time stamps. It's the responsibility of the applications to use and store them appropriately, according to their equirements. > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2007-03-25 01:36, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > > > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > > FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits are used > > > > for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. Is that sufficient > > > > for you? > > > What the hell for? > > > > ``Just because it can.'' > > Good. :] 2x64bit for x64? No, the file system has to be portable between different architectures, so the storage format must be the same on 32bit and 64bit architectures. > > Seriously now, please show some more respect to Oliver and the time he > > spent to research and write up a very informative reply. It's not very > > nice to post an original email like the one you posted, posing a > > relatively unintelligible question, and then reply ``what the hell > > for?'' to Oliver's email. At least *he* tried to find out something by > > reading the source, he wrote a reply with details pointers to places > > where you can find out more for yourself, and was enough of a gentleman > > to *avoid* using potentially offensive words. > > > > Let's be a little more cordial to the ones who help us, shall we? > > And I appreciate your hard work trying to help me. Perhaps my comment was > somewhat offensive. I appologize. OK, no problem. I was just a little confused what your actual intention was. Best regards Oliver PS: Giorgos, thanks for your help. -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd C++: "an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog" -- Steve Taylor, 1998 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 13:08:32 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B8116A406 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:08:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jan.grant@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from diri.bris.ac.uk (diri.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4A913C48C for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:08:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jan.grant@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.16.62]) by diri.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id 1HVoh0-0001CN-KS; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:53:05 +0100 Received: from cse-jg.cse.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.12.37]:60649) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1HVogn-0001Gy-LL; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:52:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:52:45 +0100 (BST) From: Jan Grant X-X-Sender: cmjg@tribble.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: deeptech71@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070326134452.L69197@tribble.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-ILRT-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-ILRT-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.039, required 5, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.44, AWL 1.20, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR 0.28) X-ILRT-MailScanner-From: jan.grant@bristol.ac.uk X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -1.2 X-Spam-Level: - Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:08:32 -0000 On Sun, 25 Mar 2007, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2007-03-25 01:36, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > >> Oliver Fromme wrote: > >>> FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits are used > >>> for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. Is that sufficient > >>> for you? > >> What the hell for? > > > > ``Just because it can.'' > > Good. :] 2x64bit for x64? To measure what? Even at nanosecond resolution, the notion of timestamping an event seems a little arbitrary. Much beyond it and it's not clear exactly what you're "measuring" - or even if there is any physical interpretation. -- jan grant, ISYS, University of Bristol. http://www.bris.ac.uk/ Tel +44 (0)117 3317661 http://ioctl.org/jan/ The only certain way to prevent another 9/11 is via universal calendar reform. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 14:18:12 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9594C16A401 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:18:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284C213C4BC for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:18:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k27so2649054nfc for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZGrijvkFAHMCh9R56jDuXVxJeg1vB/GLFK961oAnqWafdCPTcadLoFwH/1jNpTCv0sg+vv63eBv8xZyMTv+8e7slAnu5xLX2eRck1pS+3KUlaryVTKq8PgD0BChPAkCwEXnctGHDzgc3tWKVQB9Td3iv1OmzygHyQsRb/lzaNoo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oNbEhK6Irh3rveYRRQfOENjqSTOTMpvJ7eW7z68eViNkvqgEykiTWVcORNBI9lMki1ytyA3yS0V/03xXsBpOOYyloztx0kVfvxpKXtSBiil1QWtsAsdznOUmyAM0WpnMcQ37l4joldnKkd64XgncKOOr24iuoAc42OODOg7zml4= Received: by 10.78.201.2 with SMTP id y2mr3021240huf.1174918690315; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.123.111? ( [84.0.100.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id g1sm28334300muf.2007.03.26.07.18.08; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4607D66B.4070800@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:19:23 +0200 From: deeptech71@gmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> <20070325215731.GA1517@kobe.laptop> In-Reply-To: <20070325215731.GA1517@kobe.laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:18:12 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2007-03-25 22:16, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >> Oliver Fromme wrote: >>> Ideally, two consecutive, non-parallel operations should give >>> two different timestamps. That applies to creating or >>> touching a file or other kind of resource, or even just >>> calling the gettimeofday() function from within the same >>> thread, or whatever. In reality that isn't the case today for >>> FreeBSD for other reasons, but the timestamp accuracy of UFS2 >>> would certainly be sufficient for that. >> Actually, my intend wasn't to use it in filesystems, but >> server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers >> must be restarted every 3 weeks > > That's a bug in the applications themselves. The gettimeofday() > call in any modern UNIX returns a `struct timeval', which > contains *both* a time_t value of the current time with > second-level accuracy and a tv_usec member with millisecond > accuracy (or at least an approximation of a timestamp with > millisecond accuracy). > > Any userlevel application which uses userlevel time counters and > requires a restart every two or three weeks, because these > userlevel timecounters have rolled back to zero, is broken and > should be fixed. No, it's not a bug, the server and client communicates with lots of packets timestamped with a synchronized time, and sending 64bit timestamps would be too much bandwidth consuming. There's a restart demand every hour or so, so it's not a problem... but the server is limited for max 3 weeks. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 14:30:18 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE7516A400 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:30:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9965313C4DB for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:30:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 71so1614858ugh for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jQPuiMGp7+tHuTwHggILKcNO7CGwYx1hY5rR/SGg1ydz4tVfopOI/wWR4FcPF5UYX6wJDJVJdVVUoSpYiE7CMFvsi1FCWevKF2BdK3oSYCHw1/O4JdfPn1u0Xv9pbQRpqY/IBodj0E4NTRNkf8KMdS1WhNvREcS9BON7HQW1+MA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aYC6kKtc3Xo3Oyt+ORTJ8IvmHntoSsuY4PWg9upIoGtaG7i6PtdrQ+wIai0NjwZADlXu9HXL0SLI939L28EDg8y9D1K2oitNvzj/kDNz2hPLnJJEVqkwpUAR41e7AstQObsCAk92IMtjys0GTeosr5cbEEB/Q6Uvlh7QX60WElY= Received: by 10.78.140.17 with SMTP id n17mr3022505hud.1174919414521; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.123.111? ( [84.0.100.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id g8sm20281030muf.2007.03.26.07.30.12; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4607D941.30600@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:31:29 +0200 From: deeptech71@gmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200703261102.l2QB2lKL008129@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200703261102.l2QB2lKL008129@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:30:18 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >> but server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers >> must be restarted every 3 weeks > > I don't understand qwhat you're saying there. Why do they > have to be restarted every three weeks? I don't see a > reason for that. If an application (game or other, doesn't > matter) requires time stamps with certain properties, then > they should use appropriate types for it. If it doesn't, > then it's a bug in that application. > > The operating system should only provide ways to retrieve > sufficiently accurate time stamps. It's the responsibility > of the applications to use and store them appropriately, > according to their equirements. 32bit int, 4294967296 values, 1000 CLOCKS_PER_SEC (millisecond accuracy), that's approximately 3 weeks (ok, 6 weeks if unsigned), rewinding timers without client notification (server restart) causes error. dont wanna go into deeper explanation... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 14:32:35 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CCF16A404 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:32:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F6813C4AE for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:32:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k27so2653211nfc for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:32:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=smFJJqhwwuj1EL0HFRFt4JKDCIx28t6hZMiqnjbK0KWYgCNX9HtWio1+X68bXwKgM5HXCU4WtKbSoPai1I/mFXnx0YVkvMo6LaXbENjuv1yClhUbiyfmyKpgmrDAx3oSIsLJpFGkGOYXGjcBIWnzemEgXz78wtrc4KHPFi7wzm4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HeXkONbAY7UyplEk7+MCvelqvEiskXZxadrW6zOOjvXKLluWknOo4/AtgMExhi/G5LrbaX/j9iIEJGb3baokpiZZeoT/38rMAhzGgTXoac2YDF3VICCU7/zNNPzXd8Ot7uKeeMmwRHDKtoTQ9u3/8W0lP3reBwePIvuwOlBTbuc= Received: by 10.78.138.14 with SMTP id l14mr2998465hud.1174919552704; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.123.111? ( [84.2.7.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id g1sm28386496muf.2007.03.26.07.32.31; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4607D9CB.9080406@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:33:47 +0200 From: deeptech71@gmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> <20070326134452.L69197@tribble.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20070326134452.L69197@tribble.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:32:35 -0000 Jan Grant wrote: > On Sun, 25 Mar 2007, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > >> Oliver Fromme wrote: >> >> Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >>> On 2007-03-25 01:36, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Oliver Fromme wrote: >>>>> FreeBSD's UFS2 already uses 96bit timestamps, where 64 bits are used >>>>> for seconds and 32 bits are used for nanoseconds. Is that sufficient >>>>> for you? >>>> What the hell for? >>> ``Just because it can.'' >> Good. :] 2x64bit for x64? > > To measure what? Even at nanosecond resolution, the notion of > timestamping an event seems a little arbitrary. Much beyond it and it's > not clear exactly what you're "measuring" - or even if there is any > physical interpretation. > > Yeah exactly, something's just redunant. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 14:34:43 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D0716A406 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:34:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6325B13C468 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:34:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 71so1616123ugh for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gi4hfv/JMrxyX6XS6JTk6cxGR041HaEq6qTs+EuwX+Q7ZqcQmC8X1O0teE9mynkVfWts5/RGOz9E0H0IT8yYuNwDb1YEBQjQGTU1+s0j7nQM//eT5lsX/phTAonAf7iWWYAXByyy921MO/3GLCHgI5Hz/guDacNGR4Ob0UiGGRI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VHYb3dw6lHAcjcXpVB8tybSfOzzZ5J9pfGVYHHJf5YfF6XBeqIVDLdMPmb3OcquRivc1D45XBkmIOraZ0GEeCCeY0wvQVRUk4ntAYUTnLUbcnYmzEZIPbSj6/dTDD59TvmmF0pR7oGezaX0RsD6Tuuss+//jIG918d9d4mrUd54= Received: by 10.67.93.6 with SMTP id v6mr12257023ugl.1174919677601; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.123.111? ( [84.2.7.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id e1sm8115240ugf.2007.03.26.07.34.35; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4607DA48.6040802@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:35:52 +0200 From: deeptech71@gmail.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> <20070325215731.GA1517@kobe.laptop> <4607D66B.4070800@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4607D66B.4070800@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:34:43 -0000 deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> On 2007-03-25 22:16, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >>> Oliver Fromme wrote: >>>> Ideally, two consecutive, non-parallel operations should give >>>> two different timestamps. That applies to creating or >>>> touching a file or other kind of resource, or even just >>>> calling the gettimeofday() function from within the same >>>> thread, or whatever. In reality that isn't the case today for >>>> FreeBSD for other reasons, but the timestamp accuracy of UFS2 >>>> would certainly be sufficient for that. >>> Actually, my intend wasn't to use it in filesystems, but >>> server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers >>> must be restarted every 3 weeks >> >> That's a bug in the applications themselves. The gettimeofday() >> call in any modern UNIX returns a `struct timeval', which >> contains *both* a time_t value of the current time with >> second-level accuracy and a tv_usec member with millisecond >> accuracy (or at least an approximation of a timestamp with >> millisecond accuracy). >> >> Any userlevel application which uses userlevel time counters and >> requires a restart every two or three weeks, because these >> userlevel timecounters have rolled back to zero, is broken and >> should be fixed. > > No, it's not a bug, the server and client communicates with lots of > packets timestamped with a synchronized time, and sending 64bit > timestamps would be too much bandwidth consuming. There's a restart > demand every hour or so, so it's not a problem... but the server is > limited for max 3 weeks. > sry, i wanted to say, 48bit or 64bit is acceptable, but 96bit is not From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 15:01:11 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA8F16A403 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from ketralnis.com (melchoir.ketralnis.com [68.183.67.83]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5186613C4BF for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from [166.214.150.203] (mobile-166-214-150-203.mycingular.net [166.214.150.203]) (authenticated bits=0) by ketralnis.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2QEjFoT090204 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <200703261102.l2QB2lKL008129@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <200703261102.l2QB2lKL008129@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <799C4E74-39DD-4C09-BE44-3EFE910E65F3@ketralnis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David King Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:44:43 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:01:11 -0000 >>> Let's be a little more cordial to the ones who help us, shall we? >> And I appreciate your hard work trying to help me. Perhaps my >> comment was >> somewhat offensive. I appologize. > OK, no problem. I was just a little confused what your > actual intention was. [...] > PS: Giorgos, thanks for your help. Wow, FreeBSDers aren't very good at having flame-wars, are they? ;) (seriously though, I've always appreciated the very humane tone 'round these parts) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 26 18:30:31 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413E916A473 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:30:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from igloo.linux.gr (igloo.linux.gr [62.1.205.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B6813C50F for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:30:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from kobe.laptop (host5.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.229]) (authenticated bits=128) by igloo.linux.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id l2QITvGI032565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:30:04 +0300 Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2QITd4G018207; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:29:51 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l2QITdXZ018206; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:29:39 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:29:38 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: deeptech71@gmail.com Message-ID: <20070326182938.GA18096@kobe.laptop> References: <200703251900.l2PJ0Z8w058298@lurza.secnetix.de> <4606D88E.4080503@gmail.com> <20070325215731.GA1517@kobe.laptop> <4607D66B.4070800@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4607D66B.4070800@gmail.com> X-Hellug-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Hellug-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-3.512, required 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, AWL 0.69, BAYES_00 -2.60, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE 0.20) X-Hellug-MailScanner-From: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr X-Spam-Status: No Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:30:31 -0000 On 2007-03-26 16:19, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >>On 2007-03-25 22:16, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >>> Actually, my intend wasn't to use it in filesystems, but >>> server-client apps, such as games, where 32bit integer timers >>> must be restarted every 3 weeks >> >> That's a bug in the applications themselves. The >> gettimeofday() call in any modern UNIX returns a `struct >> timeval', which contains *both* a time_t value of the current >> time with second-level accuracy and a tv_usec member with >> millisecond accuracy (or at least an approximation of a >> timestamp with millisecond accuracy). >> >> Any userlevel application which uses userlevel time counters >> and requires a restart every two or three weeks, because these >> userlevel timecounters have rolled back to zero, is broken and >> should be fixed. > > No, it's not a bug, the server and client communicates with > lots of packets timestamped with a synchronized time, and > sending 64bit timestamps would be too much bandwidth > consuming. There's a restart demand every hour or so, so it's > not a problem... but the server is limited for max 3 weeks. Well, if timestamps are required and the bandwidth is not enough to send 128 bits of timestamp data every few nanoseconds, then the operating system cannot do a lot of things to help. The best the OS can do is provide you *locally* with extra-fine timestamps, and let a smart algorithm of time synchronization between the two remote hosts handle the rest. It's not going to be easy, but someone has to do the "hard work" :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 27 19:50:01 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A88916A403 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:50:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C706313C487 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:49:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FC02088; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:49:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330A82085; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:49:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 780B1A1073; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:49:38 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:49:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200703241604.l2OG4AU7084283@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:04:10 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <863b3qwjov.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: Re: 64bit timestamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:50:01 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > No, the UNIX time_t is a signed value, so it ranges from 1901 to > 2038 when it's a 32bit int (such as on FreeBSD; Solaris has a 64bit > time_t, for example): FreeBSD has a 64-bit time_t on all 64-bit platforms except Alpha, which has a 32-bit time_t for compatibility with OSF/1. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 29 18:18:45 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C627016A405 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AC313C45E for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from archangel.daleco.biz ([69.27.149.254]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.8/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l2THwVhJ017921; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:58:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <460BFE42.70307@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:58:26 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2pre) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Huff References: <20070328011712.GR11147@tigger.digitaltorque.ca> <8cb6106e0703271834l9014bffp8f1d5e753f7ec108@mail.gmail.com> <8EEB22EE-7230-4EEC-BEFE-514EBE059992@goldmark.org> <460A9689.2010506@daleco.biz> <20070329003400.GV11147@tigger.digitaltorque.ca> <460B3316.7080405@daleco.biz> <17931.14232.757720.812186@jerusalem.litteratus.org> In-Reply-To: <17931.14232.757720.812186@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: the art of pkgdb -F X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:18:45 -0000 [cc: redirected >> chat@] Robert Huff wrote: > Kevin Kinsey writes: > >> But I bet I'm not the only one who, once upon a time, happened to >> try "portupgrade -arR" or equivalent after forgetting to read >> UPDATING and ended up with more to do than I originally thought. > > Might as well paint "PLEASE KICK ME!" and an arrow pointing > down on your back .... > LOL! Maybe --- depends on the foot to be applied. Dad has a big foot; thankfully enough, I suppose, it hasn't been placed there for 30 years give or take. Now, at work, I'm the boss, so if I have to deinstall every port on the box, I can take the day off and let it compile as long as Apache, PHP, dovecot, and fetchmail get "pkg_add" called first thing before anyone else shows up. (I suppose one difficulty there is that PHP seems to be more temperamental than it used to be before all the modules were "split off", but maybe that's the fact I've not played with the thing much lately other than to write code in it.) Which might show that there is some advantage to being a "one and 2/3" person organization. Of course, I can't think of many others that apply at present. KDK -- TACKY: Serving grape kool-aid at religious functions. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 29 19:22:05 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A91116A403 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F5E13C489 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (qmail 5842 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2007 18:55:24 -0000 Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org) ([66.92.78.145]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Mar 2007 18:55:24 -0000 Received: by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix, from userid 1147) id 3999B28467; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:24 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20070328011712.GR11147@tigger.digitaltorque.ca> <8cb6106e0703271834l9014bffp8f1d5e753f7ec108@mail.gmail.com> <8EEB22EE-7230-4EEC-BEFE-514EBE059992@goldmark.org> <460A9689.2010506@daleco.biz> <20070329003400.GV11147@tigger.digitaltorque.ca> <460B3316.7080405@daleco.biz> <17931.14232.757720.812186@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <460BFE42.70307@daleco.biz> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:55:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: <460BFE42.70307@daleco.biz> (Kevin Kinsey's message of "Thu\, 29 Mar 2007 12\:58\:26 -0500") Message-ID: <44y7lfanhf.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.93 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: the art of pkgdb -F X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:22:05 -0000 Kevin Kinsey writes: > [cc: redirected >> chat@] > > Robert Huff wrote: >> Kevin Kinsey writes: >> >>> But I bet I'm not the only one who, once upon a time, happened to >>> try "portupgrade -arR" or equivalent after forgetting to read >>> UPDATING and ended up with more to do than I originally thought. >> >> Might as well paint "PLEASE KICK ME!" and an arrow pointing >> down on your back .... >> > > LOL! Maybe --- depends on the foot to be applied. Dad > has a big foot; thankfully enough, I suppose, it hasn't > been placed there for 30 years give or take. I update my ports often enough that I've always been lucky so far when I forget to check UPDATING. > Now, at work, I'm the boss, so if I have to deinstall every port on > the box, I can take the day off and let it compile as long as Apache, > PHP, dovecot, and fetchmail get "pkg_add" called first thing before > anyone else shows up. (I suppose one difficulty there is that PHP > seems to be more temperamental than it used to be before all the > modules were "split off", but maybe that's > the fact I've not played with the thing much lately other > than to write code in it.) > > Which might show that there is some advantage to being > a "one and 2/3" person organization. Of course, I can't > think of many others that apply at present. Well, yeah. In a bigger organization, there should be a extra machines to help limit (or avoid) the downtime. You can imitate that situation on a single box by using a chroot environment to build all of your ports before installing any of them. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 30 16:28:40 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F02F16A401 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AFF13C43E for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 71so877152ugh for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:28:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=IvXVR3qFJB6ZUIx1iy0CG7V5KRczMgTIGKsi1QcIeohar903KtREPXfFIOWE3fimjyY3NGcqVU/AXjZ3zcoEX8AL5weJplDlJDdr9Re2iTPYEXtFRNyEnA/rUqEI8lnIBu4HEZbloDPt6ikEqAMnc0PVHlttwgObssYg4vtx5cU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=J1edDSxlONjLd1QbbjVrEBo8HrqOtDdtttVsBsVSCida8vgxXxWb9p4R7edZnGag/qvdIw854pUu5QWPkjdtSlNDeg0w+Y9+RDwHYvSCLdCRSQs2cN0jqI4RPLCZqSs1+Lst0iSVHxM0kA5NFH4XvHIuEOsFk9NwsuuFz8bRuyA= Received: by 10.82.186.5 with SMTP id j5mr4092579buf.1175267919470; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.175.6 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:18:39 -0500 From: "illoai@gmail.com" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: geom, lies, and video tape X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:28:40 -0000 # bsdlabel -e da0s1 . . . Such that: da0s1a => / da1s1a => /tmp da[0-3]s1b => swap da[23]s1a, da[0-3]s1d, da[01]s1e => unused # gstripe label -s 65536 var da0s1d da1s1d Similarly for stripe/home, stripe/ports, and stripe/usr # newfs -U /dev/stripe/var . . . ffwd a couple of months: % bsdlabel stripe/var bsdlabel: /dev/stripe/var: no valid label found % ls -l /dev/stripe/ total 0 crw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 134 Mar 24 09:09 home crw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 135 Mar 24 09:09 ports crw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 133 Mar 24 09:09 usr crw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 132 Mar 24 09:09 var % bsdlabel da0s1 # /dev/da0s1: 8 partitions: # size offset fstype [fsize bsize bps/cpg] a: 730360 16 4.2BSD 2048 8192 42388 b: 605492 730376 swap c: 8321607 0 unused 0 0 # "raw" part, don't edit d: 605492 1335868 unused 0 0 e: 6380247 1941360 unused 0 0 % gstripe list var Geom name: var State: UP Status: Total=2, Online=2 Type: AUTOMATIC Stripesize: 65536 ID: 3018421848 Providers: 1. Name: stripe/var Mediasize: 619970560 (591M) Sectorsize: 512 Mode: r1w1e1 Consumers: 1. Name: da0s1d Mediasize: 310011904 (296M) Sectorsize: 512 Mode: r1w1e2 Number: 0 2. Name: da1s1d Mediasize: 310011904 (296M) Sectorsize: 512 Mode: r1w1e2 Number: 1 Oddly*, it all works perfectly. My curiousity is about whether this is, not so much expected, but proper** behaviour. I have also done gstripe the canonical way, with striping the daN or daNsN, bsdlabel the stripe, newfs the resulting partitions. But doing it wrong way 'round seems to do no (particular) harm. * Or not-so-oddly, as you wish. ** Demure: "Trousers were meant for women, as women have belatedly discovered." (Anthony Burgess) -- -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 30 19:58:01 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6316816A400 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:58:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F03E13C448 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:58:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A7B2081; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:57:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E35207E; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:57:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2617CA1073; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:57:57 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: "illoai@gmail.com" References: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:57:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: (illoai@gmail.com's message of "Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:18:39 -0500") Message-ID: <86hcs2ec6y.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom, lies, and video tape X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:58:01 -0000 "illoai@gmail.com" writes: > % bsdlabel stripe/var > bsdlabel: /dev/stripe/var: no valid label found stripe/var is a filesystem, not a partition. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no