From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 06:26:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8251106566B for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:26:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (trang.nuxi.org [74.95.12.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7EC8FC15 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:26:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2G6QHsS088607; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.org) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m2G6QHDx088606; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:26:17 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Steven Kreuzer Message-ID: <20080316062617.GA88526@dragon.NUXI.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Steven Kreuzer References: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OpenBSD sdiff Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:26:27 -0000 On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 07:14:04PM -0400, Steven Kreuzer wrote: > I achieve 100% compatability with the GNU version, I need to add > -v/--version and the issue I ran into is that since this program would > become part of the base os, what exactly should be displayed. I see no reason you need to be 100% compatabile with respect to -v/--version. Just about every GNU util has a --version output, but few (none?) BSD utils do. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 06:29:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D979E106564A; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (trang.nuxi.org [74.95.12.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA38D8FC1B; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2G6TJBE088641; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.org) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m2G6TJrU088640; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:29:19 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Bert JW Regeer Message-ID: <20080316062919.GB88526@dragon.NUXI.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bert JW Regeer , Stanislav Sedov , Steven Kreuzer References: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> <20080315135916.GH68662@dracon.ht-systems.ru> <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: Stanislav Sedov , FreeBSD Hackers , Steven Kreuzer Subject: Re: OpenBSD sdiff Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:29:26 -0000 On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 03:21:01PM -0700, Bert JW Regeer wrote: > Even if BSD has no tradition to keep a separate program version, it is > still very handy to be able to give this data to other developers if > something is failing. $ ident failing-binary is the output that means something. A version string will not. > Programs that don't have a -v or --version switch are frustrating to Anyone used to working on BSD will not expect a -v switch. It isn't part of BSD tradition. The simple fact there is no obivous "version" to print just shows that in a OS that is developed and built as a whole, having a version on the util is meaningless. > Dropping -v would be a bad thing, and make the tools not compatible, > thus breaking many scripts that do expect a -v. Come on, how many scripts do you write that do "sdiff -v" today? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 06:31:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36FE71065671 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:31:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (trang.nuxi.org [74.95.12.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260848FC1D for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:31:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2G6UfFD088720; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.org) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m2G6UPuV088693; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:30:25 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Jordan Gordeev Message-ID: <20080316063025.GC88526@dragon.NUXI.org> Mail-Followup-To: obrien@freebsd.org, Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:31:00 -0000 On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 02:58:40PM +0200, Jordan Gordeev wrote: > I am a student who considers applying for Google's Summer of Code > programme. > One of my ideas for a GSoC project has the following synopsis: > > Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and amd64 > architectures. > > The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. Not being up on DragonFlyBSD, can you better describe what "vkernel" is? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 06:49:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22FBC1065673 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:49:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from webmail50.yandex.ru (webmail50.yandex.ru [77.88.32.223]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CA98FC19 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from YAMAIL (webmail50) by mail.yandex.ru id S15040663AbYCPGt1 for (+ 1 other); Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:49:27 +0300 X-Yandex-Spam: 0 Received: from [77.72.136.70] ([77.72.136.70]) by mail.yandex.ru with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:49:25 +0300 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" To: obrien@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: 9060000000184602561 References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> 9060000000184602561 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:49:25 +0300 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 06:49:34 -0000 16.03.08, 09:30, "David O'Brien" : > > Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and amd64 > > architectures. > > > > The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. > Not being up on DragonFlyBSD, can you better describe what "vkernel" is? vkernel is similar to User Mode Linux technology. You can boot vkernel as a user mode process. I think it will be good to have similar in FreeBSD. There are several links: http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2007-01/msg00237.html http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/articles/vkernel/vkernel.shtml -- WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 07:10:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BDB106566B for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:10:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F608FC1C for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:10:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m2G7ApR8000664 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:10:53 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2G7ApgJ055797; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:10:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2G7ApTg055796; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:10:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:10:51 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Bert JW Regeer Message-ID: <20080316071050.GA44676@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> <20080315135916.GH68662@dracon.ht-systems.ru> <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: OpenBSD sdiff Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:10:57 -0000 --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 03:21:01PM -0700, Bert JW Regeer wrote: >Even if BSD has no tradition to keep a separate program version, it is=20 >still very handy to be able to give this data to other developers if=20 >something is failing. Programs that don't have a -v or --version switch ar= e=20 >frustrating to people who are trying to find a workaround for a bug that i= s=20 >in that program, or when looking at documentation online, when the=20 >documentation is for one version and not for a newer version. This demonstrates the difference between the BSD approach of having a complete, integrated operating system, and the GNU/Linux approach of having a variety of packages, each of different versions, which were riginally intended to supplant the vendor-provided versions of those utilities. A single string like "sdiff (GNU diffutils) 2.8.7" can only report that the sdiff you are using is part of GNU diffutils version 2.8.7. It is not particularly useful for reporting a failure because that failure is equally likely to be in (eg) glibc (the version of which is not reported). For a FreeBSD tool, the closest thing to a simple version number would be __FreeBSD_version. >Dropping -v would be a bad thing, and make the tools not compatible, thus= =20 >breaking many scripts that do expect a -v. The only sensible reason for a script to invoke a tool with '-v' would be to try and determine whether that tool has some feature/defect that the script needs to know about. In this case, the reported version number needs to be both in a format that the script can parse and have values that the script recognizes. If a script expects to see: >> $ sdiff -v >> sdiff (GNU diffutils) 2.8.7 >> Written by Thomas Lord. >> >> Copyright (C) 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc. >> This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is = NO >> warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPO= SE. Then it is likely to choke on (eg) $ sdiff -v sdiff (FreeBSD) 700055 --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfcx/oACgkQ/opHv/APuIce6ACffXXCJoQDi/qsjoBhI+dC5URU XJEAnRNwLdHcUwqaOqtFlCvlDc3gQ6en =bhYP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 07:13:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A32106566C; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:13:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mezz7@cox.net) Received: from eastrmmtai104.cox.net (eastrmmtai104.cox.net [68.230.240.11]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314588FC1D; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:13:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mezz7@cox.net) Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao107.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080316064620.YABO7068.eastrmmtao107.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:46:20 -0400 Received: from mezz.mezzweb.com ([24.255.149.218]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 1idq1Z0084iy4EG0000000; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:37:51 -0400 To: obrien@freebsd.org From: "Jeremy Messenger" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <20080316063025.GC88526@dragon.NUXI.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:47:51 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080316063025.GC88526@dragon.NUXI.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.26 (Linux) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Jordan Gordeev Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:13:51 -0000 On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:30:25 -0500, David O'Brien = wrote: > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 02:58:40PM +0200, Jordan Gordeev wrote: >> I am a student who considers applying for Google's Summer of Code >> programme. >> One of my ideas for a GSoC project has the following synopsis: >> >> Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and = >> amd64 >> architectures. >> >> The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. > > Not being up on DragonFlyBSD, can you better describe what "vkernel" i= s? http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man/?command=3Dvkernel§ion=3DAN= Y vkernel, vcd, vkd, vke -- virtual kernel architecture Cheers, Mezz -- = mezz7@cox.net - mezz@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD GNOME Team http://www.FreeBSD.org/gnome/ - gnome@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 09:42:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A25B10656C4 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:42:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgordeev@dir.bg) Received: from dir.bg (mail.dir.bg [194.145.63.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80FA8FC26 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:42:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgordeev@dir.bg) Received: from [78.90.113.14] (account jgordeev@dir.bg [78.90.113.14] verified) by srv.dir.bg (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTPSA id 29143336; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:42:21 +0200 Message-ID: <47DCEBA1.8040503@dir.bg> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:42:57 +0200 From: Jordan Gordeev User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070606 X-Accept-Language: bg, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> 9060000000184602561 <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:42:24 -0000 Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: >16.03.08, 09:30, "David O'Brien" : > > >>> Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and amd64 >>>architectures. >>> >>>The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. >>> >>> >>Not being up on DragonFlyBSD, can you better describe what "vkernel" is? >> >> > >vkernel is similar to User Mode Linux technology. You can boot vkernel as a >user mode process. I think it will be good to have similar in FreeBSD. >There are several links: >http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2007-01/msg00237.html >http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/articles/vkernel/vkernel.shtml > > > The two links that Andrey posted are very good. I just want to add a short summary: A vkernel is a kernel running as a user process under a real kernel. The vkernel runs in the CPU's priviledge ring 3. It services its child processes like a normal kernel, but whenever a page table needs to be modified, context switched, or some other privileged operation needs to be executed, the vkernel asks the real kernel through a syscall interface. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 10:09:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5BA1065671 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:09:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from auryn@zirakzigil.org) Received: from aurynhome1sv1.zirakzigil.org (mail.zirakzigil.org [82.63.178.63]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8734F8FC15 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:09:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from auryn@zirakzigil.org) Received: (qmail 92036 invoked by uid 98); 16 Mar 2008 10:09:08 -0000 Received: from 192.168.229.15 by aurynhome1sv1.zirakzigil.org (envelope-from , uid 89) with qmail-scanner-1.25 ( Clear:RC:1(192.168.229.15):. Processed in 0.04002 secs); 16 Mar 2008 10:09:08 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: auryn@zirakzigil.org via aurynhome1sv1.zirakzigil.org X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.25 (Clear:RC:1(192.168.229.15):. Processed in 0.04002 secs) Received: from unknown (HELO aurynmob2.giulioferro.it) (auryn@zirakzigil.org@192.168.229.15) by 0 with SMTP; 16 Mar 2008 10:09:08 -0000 Message-ID: <47DCF1BD.70102@zirakzigil.org> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:09:01 +0100 From: Giulio Ferro User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (X11/20070724) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eygene Ryabinkin References: <1xLCUYBNbj8sdUVp/UxnkYWg5h4@PIbJXusKFhenD3syFE+hwapDAcI> <47B97C96.1080206@zirakzigil.org> <2FpBxFvRMYTG0dQsWse9q7pKV8Y@8Af7teRYKqmQGMEC0xw84kqB83k> <47B98CCC.804@zirakzigil.org> <3l2h+px9k81jQrhpZARxo9ydv5g@Qf/k/EONkq0kVqnQID/zr6zCz2c> <47B99D9B.9050609@zirakzigil.org> <47B9A8F9.4090700@zirakzigil.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Synaptics Xorg driver for FreeBSD/amd64 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:09:11 -0000 Eygene Ryabinkin wrote: Hi Eygene, I could only now test the new port and it works. Now it's just a matter of fine-tuning it (i.e. I'd like to increase the acceleration of the pointer) Thanks for the great job! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 12:56:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FD31065671; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FB58FC18; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B1946C48; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 08:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" In-Reply-To: <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> 9060000000184602561 <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:23 -0000 On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > 16.03.08, 09:30, "David O'Brien" : > >>> Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and amd64 >>> architectures. >>> >>> The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. >> >> Not being up on DragonFlyBSD, can you better describe what "vkernel" is? > > vkernel is similar to User Mode Linux technology. You can boot vkernel as a > user mode process. I think it will be good to have similar in FreeBSD. There > are several links: > http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2007-01/msg00237.html > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/articles/vkernel/vkernel.shtml Another avenue to consider is the Linux KVM virtualization technology, which is seeing a high level of interest in the Linux community and sounds increasingly mature and well-exercised. It would also offer interesting migration benefits for Linux users wanting to try FreeBSD, allowing them to trivially create new FreeBSD installs under their existing Linux install. We had an SoC project last year but I'm not sure what the outcome was; it would be useful to give Fabio a ping and see how things are going. Obviously, anyone doing this project would need to manage the license issues involved carefully. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 13:26:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF311065686 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:26:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE08FC1E; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:26:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:26:23 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Gordeev References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> In-Reply-To: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:26:22 -0000 Jordan Gordeev wrote: > Hello! > I am a student who considers applying for Google's Summer of Code > programme. > One of my ideas for a GSoC project has the following synopsis: > > Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and > amd64 architectures. > > The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. > I wonder if vkernel support would have its place among the myriad of > virtualisation technologies, and if it would aid kernel hackers in their > kernel development work. > I also wonder if anybody would be interested in mentoring this. There are some important things to be aware of with Dragonfly's vkernel. Firstly, while Matt brought it to the point where it works to the extent of booting, being able to recompile kernels, etc, it was never optimized for performance. Dragonfly vkernels are *slow*, even relative to dragonfly non-vkernels which are already much slower than FreeBSD kernels across the board. In this sense it is not a complete project, and what remains to be done is the harder part of the work. It has also not been seriously stress-tested (in part because it is not production quality, but also because it has few users), so there may be a lot of bug fixing required to stabilize the code. Secondly, I don't know to what extent the vkernel work is multi-processor ready, but given that SMP support has also not been a priority for dragonfly there may well be large amounts of SMP work needed to integrate with FreeBSD. Any multi-processor synchronization present would likely have to be reimplemented for FreeBSD anyway due to the different architectural models. None of these issues are being actively worked on in dragonfly, as far as I know. Finally, the way vkernels were implemented in dragonfly was *very* disruptive to the kernel source (lots of function renaming etc), so it is likely that this would also have to be completely reimplemented in a FreeBSD port. The bottom line is that while vkernel is an interesting beginning of a project, it is not a complete piece of code that is suitable for porting to FreeBSD in its present form, and that doesn't seem likely to change in the forseeable future. Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 17:55:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90C41065674; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from mx45.mail.ru (mx45.mail.ru [194.67.23.236]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE798FC2D; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from f8.mail.ru (f8.mail.ru [194.67.57.106]) by mx45.mail.ru (mPOP.Fallback_MX) with ESMTP id 155FDE038921; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:36:32 +0300 (MSK) Received: from mail by f8.mail.ru with local id 1JatyK-000FfY-00; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:36:24 +0300 Received: from [69.114.219.103] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:36:24 +0300 From: Igor Shmukler To: Robert Watson Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: [69.114.219.103] Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:36:24 +0300 References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Igor Shmukler List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:55:24 -0000 What's vkernel's or modern UML multithreaded performance compared to native? I have not been reading hackers in a long time and have no idea what's going on... Please excuse my butting in... Given the fact that there are not as many developers as needed, what would be a practical purpose of vkernel? UML is typically used to debug drivers and/or for hosting. Now that Linux about to have or already has container technology, hosting on UML makes little sense. KVM and other hypervisors are valuable testing tools and can sometimes make sense in a hosting environment. If someone was to work on an open source hypervisor, perhaps they should consider Innotek's product. KVM and Xen use VT extensions to run guests in a protected mode. It's a little slow. Innotek has a fast binary translator. The big questions is whether there is a practical reason to run FreeBSD as a host, or this more about the "Freedom of choice?" I couple of years ago, we implemented a fairly complete container functionality in FreeBSD 5.x. It even supported live-migration of virtual environments. I showed it A. Perlstein while he was working in New York. We tried to see if anyone was interested at the time, but we have found none. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Watson To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions > > On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > > > 16.03.08, 09:30, "David O'Brien" : > > > >>> Add virtual kernel (vkernel) support to FreeBSD for the i386 and amd64 > >>> architectures. > >>> > >>> The vkernel support in question is the one found in DragonFlyBSD. > >> > >> Not being up on DragonFlyBSD, can you better describe what "vkernel" is? > > > > vkernel is similar to User Mode Linux technology. You can boot vkernel as a > > user mode process. I think it will be good to have similar in FreeBSD. There > > are several links: > > http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2007-01/msg00237.html > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/articles/vkernel/vkernel.shtml > > Another avenue to consider is the Linux KVM virtualization technology, which > is seeing a high level of interest in the Linux community and sounds > increasingly mature and well-exercised. It would also offer interesting > migration benefits for Linux users wanting to try FreeBSD, allowing them to > trivially create new FreeBSD installs under their existing Linux install. We > had an SoC project last year but I'm not sure what the outcome was; it would > be useful to give Fabio a ping and see how things are going. Obviously, > anyone doing this project would need to manage the license issues involved > carefully. > > Robert N M Watson > Computer Laboratory > University of Cambridge > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > á×ÔÏ@Mail.Ru: îÏ×ÙÊ Bugatti – ÓÁÍÙÊ ÄÏÒÏÇÏÊ Á×ÔÏ öÅÎÅ×Ù http://r.mail.ru/cln3686/auto.mail.ru From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 19:05:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414B0106566C for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:05:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from onemda@gmail.com) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A52D8FC1E for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:05:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from onemda@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so4841498wfa.7 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:05:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=G87xahSTLKc8LatbC/rbJtInMl8469JCAx9dL1TkJ6Q=; b=mGJt9CNJi5gfsqB8A1og5LcgvZskoik5s5fMrIOQUh2CLLqt4zBhPZ/qAPV5CVXiPNIFN4Tq5vxJ+2pLEAiZ0rbk9OtxGOE4r9dO3PfkfUh9VddgH72OkEH/hy/t2oNny4MZ8mELb8oIsqZ/SBDCfuJZruwrkDIbQVc7C3wGVlM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=s/8COlxDj1dz8nxB/+aEYcrbrRsA3/e/Vo0QBpc3G74PcvvpIQCVXpuvjREx9Iyjn/dW8xanta2d+X/Nq2vUX367NoABG7PW7z/chryd3goiQxz9ixjmpC0TY9SLFScBvjyeeVibvyhVjuVWtoU7jGEbd/wCoq7ctogtDeuarYA= Received: by 10.143.187.2 with SMTP id o2mr5654603wfp.162.1205694345427; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.178.11 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3a142e750803161205q249b719fgfa7232be0c191572@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:05:45 +0100 From: "Paul B. Mahol" To: "KAYVEN RIESE" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3a142e750803141944y390fb3aai9263bb4c0bcb2104@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freeBSD hardware list Subject: Re: Failure to Project OOImpress X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:05:46 -0000 Dont hold me for this: but I remmeber that I read somewhere that if projector is connected before Xorg starts available resolutions to projector would be limited. So best is to disconnect and connect it again when Xorg is already running. Beware: I dont have experience with projectors with Xorg, only with seconds monitors but that is different story. I hope that there are somebody over there with more experience with projectors than me. On 3/15/08, KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Paul B. Mahol wrote: > > > Was it connected prior or after Xorg startup? > > I think we connected prior. Should we have? I had my > computer turned off, and I booted it up. The projector > was on during boot. I thought the boot process would > take care of it but it didn't. > > > > > On 3/14/08, KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > >> > >> > >> Couldn't connect to projector for presentation. > >> > >> I was supposed to give a class presentation and we tried to hook > >> my computer into the 15 pin female joint (sorry I forget what it is > >> called three rows of 5 pins each on the computer, hooking to 15 pins > >> on the wire) that I guess is usually a monitor connector. The professor > >> kept saying "hit function-f8" but that didn't go. > >> > >> I am running gnome on freeBSD > >> > >> [kayve@kv_bsd ~]$ uname -a > >> FreeBSD kv_bsd 6.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 6.2-RELEASE #0: Fri Jan 12 10:40:27 > UTC > >> 2007 root@dessler.cse.buffalo.edu:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 > >> [kayve@kv_bsd ~]$ > >> > >> > >> He said it was all about BIOS, but we were trying to hit func-f8 during > >> gnome running, so I thought > >> I would get a second opinion. > >> > >> Here is a link with pictures of the model decal: > >> > >> http://www.monkeyview.net/id/965/fsck/dmesg/index.vhtml > >> > >> *----------------------------------------------------------* > >> Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) > >> (415) 902 5513 cellular > >> http://kayve.net > >> Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org > >> *----------------------------------------------------------* > >> _______________________________________________ > >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > >> > > > > *----------------------------------------------------------* > Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) > (415) 902 5513 cellular > http://kayve.net > Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org > *----------------------------------------------------------* > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 20:44:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63574106566B; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:44:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhary@unsane.co.uk) Received: from unsane.co.uk (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f08:110::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65258FC19; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:44:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhary@unsane.co.uk) Received: from crab.unsane.co.uk (crab.unsane.co.uk [10.0.0.111]) (authenticated bits=0) by unsane.co.uk (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id m2GKjIQ2013314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:45:19 GMT (envelope-from jhary@unsane.co.uk) Message-ID: <47DD85D2.3000801@unsane.co.uk> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:40:50 +0000 From: Vince User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080313) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul B. Mahol" References: <3a142e750803141944y390fb3aai9263bb4c0bcb2104@mail.gmail.com> <3a142e750803161205q249b719fgfa7232be0c191572@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3a142e750803161205q249b719fgfa7232be0c191572@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:25:32 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, KAYVEN RIESE , freeBSD hardware list Subject: Re: Failure to Project OOImpress X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:44:59 -0000 I seem to recall I just had to play with xrandr to get an external monitor to work on my dell while my old Toshiba laptop used to need the function-f3 or f4 key pressing, but its not something i've done recently enough to remember the exact procedure for either. Vince Paul B. Mahol wrote: > Dont hold me for this: but I remmeber that I read somewhere that if > projector is connected before Xorg starts available resolutions to > projector would be limited. > So best is to disconnect and connect it again when Xorg is already running. > Beware: I dont have experience with projectors with Xorg, only with > seconds monitors but that is different story. > > I hope that there are somebody over there with more experience with > projectors than me. > > On 3/15/08, KAYVEN RIESE wrote: >> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Paul B. Mahol wrote: >> >>> Was it connected prior or after Xorg startup? >> I think we connected prior. Should we have? I had my >> computer turned off, and I booted it up. The projector >> was on during boot. I thought the boot process would >> take care of it but it didn't. >> >>> On 3/14/08, KAYVEN RIESE wrote: >>>> >>>> Couldn't connect to projector for presentation. >>>> >>>> I was supposed to give a class presentation and we tried to hook >>>> my computer into the 15 pin female joint (sorry I forget what it is >>>> called three rows of 5 pins each on the computer, hooking to 15 pins >>>> on the wire) that I guess is usually a monitor connector. The professor >>>> kept saying "hit function-f8" but that didn't go. >>>> >>>> I am running gnome on freeBSD >>>> >>>> [kayve@kv_bsd ~]$ uname -a >>>> FreeBSD kv_bsd 6.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 6.2-RELEASE #0: Fri Jan 12 10:40:27 >> UTC >>>> 2007 root@dessler.cse.buffalo.edu:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 >>>> [kayve@kv_bsd ~]$ >>>> >>>> >>>> He said it was all about BIOS, but we were trying to hit func-f8 during >>>> gnome running, so I thought >>>> I would get a second opinion. >>>> >>>> Here is a link with pictures of the model decal: >>>> >>>> http://www.monkeyview.net/id/965/fsck/dmesg/index.vhtml >>>> >>>> *----------------------------------------------------------* >>>> Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) >>>> (415) 902 5513 cellular >>>> http://kayve.net >>>> Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org >>>> *----------------------------------------------------------* >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> *----------------------------------------------------------* >> Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) >> (415) 902 5513 cellular >> http://kayve.net >> Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org >> *----------------------------------------------------------* >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 16 23:24:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93172106564A; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:24:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8988FC15; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:24:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2GNDcpD009554; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2GNDbvl009550; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:13:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> To: Igor Shmukler , Robert Watson , jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> Cc: Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:24:46 -0000 Basically DragonFly has a syscall API that allows a userland process to create and completely control any number of VM spaces, including the ability to pass execution control to a VM space and get it back, and control memory mappings within that VM space (and in the virtual kernel process itself) on a page-by-page basis, so only 'invalid' PTEs are passed through to the virtual kernel by the real kernel and the real kernel caches page mappings with real hardware pmaps. Any exception that occurs within a running VM space is routed back to the virtual kernel process by the real kernel. Any real signal (e.g. the vkernel's 'clock' interrupt) or exception that occurs also forces control to return to the vkernel process. A DragonFly virtual kernel is just a user process which uses this feature to manipulate VM contexts (i.e. for processes running under the vkernel itself), providing a complete emulation environment that is opaque to userland. The vkernel itself is not running in an emulated environment, it is a 'real' (and singular) user process running on the machine. These VM contexts are managed by the real kernel as pure VM contexts, NOT as threads or processes or anything else. Since the VM context in the real kernel basically has one VM entry (representing the software emulated mmap of the entire address space), and since pmap's use throw-away PTEs, the real-kernel overhead is minimal and there is no real limit to the number of virtualized processes the virtual kernel can control, nor any other resource limitations within the real kernel. One can even run a virtual kernel inside a virtual kernel... not sure why anyone would want to do it, but it works! I can even thrash the virtual kernel without it having any effect whatsoever on the real kernel or system. The ENTIRE operational overhead rests solely in operations which must perform a context switch. Cpu-bound programs will run at full speed and I/O bound programs aren't too bad either. Context-switch-heavy programs suffer as they do in a hardware virtualized environment. Make no mistake about that, running any sort of kernel in a hardware virtualized environment that wasn't designed to run in and you are going to have horrible performance, as many people trying to simply 'move' their existing machines to virtualized environments have found out the hard way. I could probably shave off a microsecond from our virtual kernel syscall path, but it isn't a priority for me... I'm using a code efficient but performance inefficient implementation to pass contextual information between the emulated VM context and the virtual kernel, and it's a fairly expensive copy op that would benefit greatly if it were converted to shared memory or if I simply cached the userland page in the real kernel to avoid the copyout/lookup/pmap op. I could probably also parallelize the real I/O backend for the 'disk' better, but it isn't a priority for me either. SMP is supported the same as it is supported in a real kernel, the virtual kernel simply creates a LWP for each 'cpu' (for all intents and purposes you can think of it as forking once for each cpu). All the LWPs have access to the same pool of VM contexts and thus the virtual kernel can schedule its processes to any of the LWPs on a whim. It just uses the same process scheduler that the real kernel does... nearly all the code in the virtual kernel is the same, in fact, the vkernel 'platform' is only 700K of source code. There are some minor (and admittedly not very well developed) shims to reduce the load on the real machine when you do things like run a vkernel simulating many cpu's on a machine which only has a few physical cpu's. Spinning in a thread vs on a hard cpu is not the best thing in the world to do, after all. In anycase, this means that generally speaking SMP performance in a virtual kernel will scale as DragonFly's own SMP performance is improved. Right now the vkernels can be built SMP but it isn't recommended... those kinds of builds are best used to test SMP work and not for real applications. -- Insofar as virtual kernels verses machine emulation and performance goes, people need to realize that *NO* machine emulation technology is going to perform well for any task requiring a lot context switching or a lot of non-MMU-resolvable page faults. No matter WHAT technology you use, at some point any real I/O operation will have to pass through the real kernel, period. For example, a syscall-heavy process running under a virtual kernel will perform just about as badly as a syscall-heavy process running under something like VMWare. Hardware virtualized MMU support isn't quite advanced enough to solve the performance bottleneck for any virtualization technology that I am aware of. The only reason VMWare is perceived to have better performance in certain cases is simply because they have invested a ridiculous number of man-hours on instruction rewriting, plus targetted optimizations which do not stand the test of time (work with particular software and do not generally survive the evoluation of that software without retargetting the optimization). It's like the assembly-vs-C arguments we had in the mid-80's. It isn't a good precedent. Hardware virtualization is still the only real avenue for true cross- platform emulation, but it isn't ultimately going to be the best solution for same-platform emulation. Frankly a virtualized kernel such as DragonFly's kernel and user mode linux (which uses a similar but slightly different context switch handling model) is a better development path then machine emulation for SAME-OS kernels, because the virtualized kernel is explicitly designed to operate in that environment, allowing all the context- transitional interfaces to be customized far better then what you can do with any hardware virtualization technology, not to mention that a virtual kernel is actually better positioned to use hardware virtualization technologies then a hardware emulated kernel is. Sounds nuts, but it's true. Hardware virtualization technologies currently have far more eyeballs writing insanely complex instruction rewriting code which is why they are perceived as having a performance benefit at the moment, but the development path is extremely inelegant and there is far more room for optimization in a virtualized kernel environment then there is in a hardware emulated environment. The virtualized kernel environment can take advantage of the same hardware features as the hardware emulated environment, after all, but a hardware emulated environment cannot take advantage of all the direct syscall features available to a virtual kernel. -- Types of optimizations we can do to improve virtual kernel technologies, which also apply to hardware emulated kernels: * Prefetch more pages to avoid excessive invalid page exceptions. Right now mot prefetching is turned off, resulting in fairly horrible performance for malloc-intensive programs. * Improve the system call context switching path. Right now it uses excessive copyin/copyout ops. What it really needs to do is use an up-call mechanic that allows the register and FP context to be thrown away in the vkernel process (cutting out half the copyin/copyout's). * Do a better job bundle I/O (buffer cache interactions in the vkernel require very different optmizations vs buffer cache interactions in a real kernel). * Asynchronize real I/O better. Right now, I admit, I'm basically just using a write() to the disk file. True asynchronization requires creating some 'I/O' LWPs outside of the SMP model, and I haven't done that yet. Right now I have a few LWPs inside the SMP model to parallelize I/O but it doesn't work very well. Not really a big list, and nothing earthshattering. -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 00:12:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A46106566B; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:12:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2BFB8FC16; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:12:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2H0C1X8009975; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2H0C02i009972; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:12:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803170012.m2H0C02i009972@apollo.backplane.com> To: Igor Shmukler References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:12:13 -0000 : :Given the fact that there are not as many developers as needed, what would be a practical purpose of vkernel? : :UML is typically used to debug drivers and/or for hosting. Now that Linux about to have or already has container technology, hosting on UML makes little sense. The single largest benefit UML or a hardware emulated environment has over a jail is that it is virtually impossible to crash the real kernel no matter what you are doing within the virtualized environment. I don't know any ISP that is able to keep a user-accessible (shell prompt) machine up consistently outside of a UML environment. The only reason machines don't crash more is that they tend to run a subset of available applications in a subset of possible load and resource related circumstances. Neither jails no containers nor any other native-kernel technology will EVER solve that problem. For that matter, no native-kernel technology will ever come close to providing the same level of compartmentalization from a security standpoint, and particularly not if you intend to run general purposes applications in that environment. The reason UML is used, particularly for web hosting, is because web developers require numerous non-trivial backend tools to be installed each of which has the potential to hog resources, crash the machine, create security holes, or otherwise create hell for everyone else. The hell needs to be restricted and narrowed as much as possible so human resources can focus on the cause rather then on the collateral damage. For any compute-intensive business, collateral damage is the #1 IT issue, the cost of power is the #2 issue, and network resources are the #3 issue. Things like cpu and machines... those are in the noise. They're basically free. With a virtual kernel like UML (or our vkernel), the worse that happens is that the vkernel itself crashes and reboots in 5 seconds (+ fsck time for that particular user). No other vkernel is effected, no other customer is effected, no other compartmentalized resource is effected. Jails are great, no question about it, and there are numerous applications which require the performance benefits that running in a jail verses an emulated environment provides, but we will never, EVER see jails replace UML. This is particularly true considering the resource being put into improving emulated environments. The overhead for running an emulated environment ten years from now is probably going to be a fraction of the overhead it is now, as hardware catches up to desire. -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 00:43:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B33106564A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:43:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCA38FC17 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:43:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2H0h2P5010176; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2H0h2qO010175; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:43:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> To: Kris Kennaway References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:43:14 -0000 :Finally, the way vkernels were implemented in dragonfly was *very* :disruptive to the kernel source (lots of function renaming etc), so it :is likely that this would also have to be completely reimplemented in a :FreeBSD port. :... :Kris Well, I don't think I would agree with your assessment but, particularly, the way vkernels are implemented in DragonFly is NOT in the least disruptive to kernel source. It has about 1/10 the code pollution of FreeBSD's current jail implementation. The implementation is just about as clean as it is possible to make it from the point of view of code pollution. You could try reimplementing the concepts and APIs in a FreeBSD port, but good luck with that. The 'pollution' involved, aka the kernel shims needed, are fairly minor: * VM fault code detects fault in special mmap entry type and passes control to the virtual kernel. * Trap code tests that the fault occured in a managed VM context and passes control to the virtual kernel. * (real process) signal code checks that the signal occured while running a managed VM context and switches the context back to the virtual kernel before taking the signal (duh! gotta do that!). Note that there was some other work related to the vkernel work, such as signal mailboxes, but those aren't actually needed to port the vkernel, though you do need some way to properly deal with scheduling races without having to make signal blocking and unblocking system calls (which make system calls made by a virtualized process even more expensive). No matter how you twist it, you can't avoid any of that. The added APIs are: * mmap supporting emulated user-accessible page tables. This is unavoidable. There is no way a user process can control virtualized processes without page-level control of their pages or without page-level sharing of pages, with separate access domains, between the virtual kernel process and the virtualized user process running under it. Not only does a virtual kernel need to be able to manipulate pages within the virtualized VM context (representing a virtualized process), but it must also be able to manipulate pages within its OWN context to properly share pages between the virtual kernel and virtualized processes, or it can't do things like, oh, implement mmap()ing of files which have pages in both places, let alone implement the buffer cache. I did have an issue with mmap() in that 32 bit ranges are not supported by the current mmap code. i.e. I can't tell it in a single mmap() to map a 3G chunk of memory. I did hack that... the vkernel code just does three adjacent mmap()'s to map the emulated address space in the VM context. Hokey but it works. That's not really a kernel pollution issue anyway since it is in the vkernel platform code. * syscalls to switch into and out of a managed VM context. Kinda need to be able to control the virtualized contexts. * syscalls to manipulate managed VM contexts. Kinda need to be able to manipulate page-by-page mappings within managed VM contexts. * signal mailboxes (the only thing that could be done away with, really), used to avoid the vkernel having to block and unblock signals. The most complex part of the whole mess is the emulated page table support added to mmap. I don't think there is any way to avoid it, particularly if you intend to support SMP virtualization (which we do, completely, even though it may lack performance). The MMU interactions are tricky at best when one is trying to implement a virtual SMP kernel running inside a real SMP kernel, because the real kernel MUST implement real page tables inaccessible to the virtual kernel. Synchronizing page table modifications between the emulated and real page tables on SMP is *NOT* trivial but, hey, I wrote it so you guys have a working template for all that crap now. It took something like two months to make it work properly in a SMP environment. Now one thing you can do, which I considered but ultimately discarded, is to associate the managed VM context with a real kernel process separate from the virtual kernel process. This does simplify the signal processing somewhat and I believe it may also reduce context switch overhead slightly. The reason I discarded it was two fold: First, for a SMP build there are now two real processes per cpu instead of one, making scheduling more complex. Second, the emulated page table is not confined to the VM contexts under the virtual kernel's control, the virtual kernel itself uses the same feature, so additional MP related synchronization would have to occur to properly emulate the MMU and I got a headache trying to think about how to do it. What I strongly recommend you NOT do is try to associate each virtualized process running under the virtual kernel with a real-kernel process. The reason is that it is extremely wasteful of real-kernel resources and exposes the real kernel to resource starvation originating in the virtual kernel. My solution was to separate struct vmspace out from everything else and give it its own API. This isn't pollution... really it is a major clean-up and we already had partial separation due to our 'resident' code support. It was easy and cleaned up a chunk of the kernel source at the same time. In anycase, unless you do a 1:1 process model for the emulated processes you need the code to swap VM spaces for a process. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 01:13:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC7B1065676 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:13:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from myself@rojer.pp.ru) Received: from wooster.rojer.pp.ru (wooster.rojer.pp.ru [80.68.242.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB65D8FC22 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:13:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from myself@rojer.pp.ru) Received: from nb.rojer.pp.ru (unknown [192.168.169.171]) by wooster.rojer.pp.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2824B1142D; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:53:23 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <47DDC0FF.7050801@rojer.pp.ru> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:53:19 +0000 From: Deomid Ryabkov User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080309) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cristiano Deana References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090400040403060703050302" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mpt driver: check raid status X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:13:18 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090400040403060703050302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do sysctl -a | grep nonoptimal_volumes this should find an oid somewhere under mpt branch, and it should reflect the number of raid volumes in state other than "optimal". in most cases this means that a disk has gone bad. Cristiano Deana wrote: > Hi, > > I'm using a 7-RELEASE on a Dell PowerEdge 1955, using a mpt driver to > manage a hardware raid1. > Is there any way to check the status of the raid? > > Now it's running on a single disk (the second one failed and has been > removed), and the only thing i can see are: > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x16 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x12 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x16 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x15 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x21 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x15 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x21 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x15 > mpt0: mpt_cam_event: 0x21 > > in messages. > > Thanks in advance > > -- Deomid Ryabkov aka Rojer myself@rojer.pp.ru rojer@sysadmins.ru ICQ: 8025844 --------------ms090400040403060703050302 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIJPTCC 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(freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A748FC1C; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 02:43:31 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:43:28 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > :Finally, the way vkernels were implemented in dragonfly was *very* > :disruptive to the kernel source (lots of function renaming etc), so it > :is likely that this would also have to be completely reimplemented in a > :FreeBSD port. > :... > :Kris > > Well, I don't think I would agree with your assessment but, > particularly, the way vkernels are implemented in DragonFly is NOT > in the least disruptive to kernel source. I was referring to the decision you made to rename all of the kernel functions that conflicted with libc functions so that vkernels could be linked against libc. Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 03:06:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D843106564A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7418FC13 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:06:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id g13so3394899rvb.43 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:06:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=70rz3msO0joJvfncerPAQ+JOMgYMILC1ru2pvFZ2Zc4=; b=IUbEnKhRuS67U6KCDyB8YFkEuvClbN77yD170vWT81ghb0SjWGKmQse0C5iaoyusPrNu9FbAaKv0yuWGpH2YifFVd0V4miuxw0dtN82G1gWN2tE/8tk+sX5HtMOwsd2FYcHtRaGS6EoBm16OE0V4tKhlorcfbXgMQKikLst53ZQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=iAZ8ASO4P8QkpPNHEsnauHlSOtjkEZlf2+LOTruqwa00ptuoSp7tQdznegINR84gsHqn0dx4f35O1tf2q+RTzhAfYQFDDcjZFMucos/bZr3SURgbUSFe1vLG3sXILpf+eueJvY0wNiS8T2Bvg+2PAsj9aJc3dhw1D96FuJT+jgk= Received: by 10.141.180.5 with SMTP id h5mr7313874rvp.240.1205723170346; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.143.14 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:06:10 +0900 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Robert Watson" In-Reply-To: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5b8033e841478a24 Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:06:12 -0000 On 16/03/2008, Robert Watson wrote: > Another avenue to consider is the Linux KVM virtualization technology, which > is seeing a high level of interest in the Linux community and sounds > increasingly mature and well-exercised. It would also offer interesting > migration benefits for Linux users wanting to try FreeBSD, allowing them to > trivially create new FreeBSD installs under their existing Linux install. We > had an SoC project last year but I'm not sure what the outcome was; it would > be useful to give Fabio a ping and see how things are going. Obviously, > anyone doing this project would need to manage the license issues involved > carefully. Wasn't part of the original KVM idea to support a "hypervisor" interface to a parent, sort of Xen-like, providing interrupt, VM and inter-VM "IPC" hooks? I remember seeing this stuff a while back but for some reason all I read about KVM - outside of what Redhat are doing with it and Xen now - focuses on hardware virtualisation. A BSD-licenced KVM hypervisor + FreeBSD kernel might be an interesting project. I'm pretty sure Rusty wrote a very very lightweight KVM hypervisor as a demonstration which may serve as a starting point for things. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 03:19:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4875A106564A; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:19:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from f69.mail.ru (f69.mail.ru [194.67.57.220]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71328FC18; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:19:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from mail by f69.mail.ru with local id 1Jb5sQ-000Fju-00; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:19:06 +0300 Received: from [69.114.219.103] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:19:06 +0300 From: Igor Shmukler To: Matthew Dillon Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: [69.114.219.103] Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:19:06 +0300 In-Reply-To: <200803170012.m2H0C02i009972@apollo.backplane.com> References: <200803170012.m2H0C02i009972@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re[4]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Igor Shmukler List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:19:09 -0000 Matt, You sure won't argue that UML isolation is inherently better than one that can be provided by a hypervisor. If the performance is the same, what are you gaining? Hypervisor while slow, allows treating a complete OS with all applications as a black box. Why would I choose UML over a hypervisor? I am not trying to say there cannot be a place for vkernel. [I don't even yet understand what is does or how.] However, as a hosting company, why would I choose UML over a hypervisor? I can provide a number of reasons to pick a hypervisor: 1. use the same platform to host Unix, Windows and other guests 2. load balance all available hardware [based on some policy] 3. better implies that a hypervisor upgrade is less likely to damage guests I am sure people hosting on hypervisors could write a longer list. Containers [including jail] provide significantly lower overhead[, but more difficult to maintain]. At least it can be argued [probably both ways] that containers are cheaper. Are there real world people hosting with UML today who could comment on this, perhaps supporting Matt's position? igor -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Dillon To: Igor Shmukler Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions > > > : > :Given the fact that there are not as many developers as needed, what would be a practical purpose of vkernel? > : > :UML is typically used to debug drivers and/or for hosting. Now that Linux about to have or already has container technology, hosting on UML makes little sense. > > The single largest benefit UML or a hardware emulated environment has > over a jail is that it is virtually impossible to crash the real kernel > no matter what you are doing within the virtualized environment. I > don't know any ISP that is able to keep a user-accessible (shell prompt) > machine up consistently outside of a UML environment. The only reason > machines don't crash more is that they tend to run a subset of available > applications in a subset of possible load and resource related > circumstances. > > Neither jails no containers nor any other native-kernel technology will > EVER solve that problem. For that matter, no native-kernel technology > will ever come close to providing the same level of compartmentalization > from a security standpoint, and particularly not if you intend to run > general purposes applications in that environment. > > The reason UML is used, particularly for web hosting, is because > web developers require numerous non-trivial backend tools to be installed > each of which has the potential to hog resources, crash the machine, > create security holes, or otherwise create hell for everyone else. The > hell needs to be restricted and narrowed as much as possible so human > resources can focus on the cause rather then on the collateral damage. > For any compute-intensive business, collateral damage is the #1 IT issue, > the cost of power is the #2 issue, and network resources are the #3 > issue. Things like cpu and machines... those are in the noise. They're > basically free. > > With a virtual kernel like UML (or our vkernel), the worse that happens > is that the vkernel itself crashes and reboots in 5 seconds (+ fsck time > for that particular user). No other vkernel is effected, no other > customer is effected, no other compartmentalized resource is effected. > > Jails are great, no question about it, and there are numerous applications > which require the performance benefits that running in a jail verses > an emulated environment provides, but we will never, EVER see jails > replace UML. This is particularly true considering the resource being > put into improving emulated environments. The overhead for running an > emulated environment ten years from now is probably going to be a > fraction of the overhead it is now, as hardware catches up to desire. > > -Matt > á×ÔÏ@Mail.Ru: îÏ×ÙÊ Bugatti – ÓÁÍÙÊ ÄÏÒÏÇÏÊ Á×ÔÏ öÅÎÅ×Ù http://r.mail.ru/cln3686/auto.mail.ru From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 03:37:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6249106564A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:37:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kip.macy@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.239]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8EA8FC16 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:37:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kip.macy@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so5664264wxd.7 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:37:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=IbF6iQFx6xEZQkZoxSlGuJVx5x8Grvs0B9cuLmNrlt4=; b=WoNNlG8B8eCaRelE5g0lVLEdk9KwpV2Gd4ir3GRIAY56VUIx//wivM8A/VF1WfoodsDCbG7dFDnaNJCXallcLL6c8Qi8q7COMuk35m4QCYWeUaDhGe2NcvXjh+EsFklrw1JGvhDhvXaHh6zkVBT8dPrN7C1CL58HyGE7Zjr91Ec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y5YrXQYrZ0J9gLtcu4C9P8MzONLeK7JaT7YV7Ck5iQnaDE6B2ByxDXFxJzjsL4D+E2cLvRMo5xqCf/FM2E0KwI2s/HWFeyGlqLXwAqlTU1rn9s9/5R4UGG/Qcqyi71HfQ/MBm4CIaOkIu2H0I7S0UiMmHPehlB5w1W0PU6hJq1k= Received: by 10.115.106.7 with SMTP id i7mr17039056wam.18.1205723385093; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.22.10 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:09:45 -0700 From: "Kip Macy" To: "Adrian Chadd" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 03:37:48 -0000 On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > On 16/03/2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > > Another avenue to consider is the Linux KVM virtualization technology, which > > is seeing a high level of interest in the Linux community and sounds > > increasingly mature and well-exercised. It would also offer interesting > > migration benefits for Linux users wanting to try FreeBSD, allowing them to > > trivially create new FreeBSD installs under their existing Linux install. We > > had an SoC project last year but I'm not sure what the outcome was; it would > > be useful to give Fabio a ping and see how things are going. Obviously, > > anyone doing this project would need to manage the license issues involved > > carefully. > > Wasn't part of the original KVM idea to support a "hypervisor" > interface to a parent, sort of Xen-like, providing interrupt, VM and > inter-VM "IPC" hooks? > > I remember seeing this stuff a while back but for some reason all I > read about KVM - outside of what Redhat are doing with it and Xen now > - focuses on hardware virtualisation. > > A BSD-licenced KVM hypervisor + FreeBSD kernel might be an interesting > project. I'm pretty sure Rusty wrote a very very lightweight KVM > hypervisor as a demonstration which may serve as a starting point for > things. Nope. It is called lguest, is GPL, IBM has the rights to it and has no interest in changing the license. Using KVM for architectural ideas while starting from a fresh codebase is really the only way to go if you are concerned with licensing. -Kip From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 05:08:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1155106566B for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:08:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ep@exvere.net) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBCF8FC16 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:08:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ep@exvere.net) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so4558167fgg.35 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.84.5 with SMTP id h5mr4963050fgb.27.1205728969381; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.58.20 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1a72a3390803162142m57341c0dk9db0a80664838566@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:42:47 -0700 From: "Eddie Parra" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Freebsd 7.0 on ASUS P4R8L - No Disks Found! X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:08:07 -0000 (Newbie) I have FreeBSD 6.3 working on my Asus AB-2800. I just attempted a fresh install of 7.0 and it couldn't find my disks - "No Disks Found!" The Motherboard Chipset is ATI RS300 / IXP200. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 10:29:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FF1106564A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDA08FC14 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JbCap-0006fe-FN for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:23 +0000 Received: from 195.208.174.178 ([195.208.174.178]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:23 +0000 Received: from vadim_nuclight by 195.208.174.178 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:23 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Vadim Goncharov Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:15 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Nuclear Lightning @ Tomsk, TPU AVTF Hostel Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <200803160005.45827.max@love2party.net> X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.208.174.178 X-Comment-To: Max Laier User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD) Sender: news Subject: Re: Review please: pfil FIRST/LAST X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: vadim_nuclight@mail.ru List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:29:26 -0000 Hi Max Laier! On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 00:05:36 +0100; Max Laier wrote about 'Review please: pfil FIRST/LAST': > attached is a small diff to allow pfil(9) consumers to force a sticky=20 > position on the head/tail of the processing queue. This can be used to=20 > do traffic conditioning kind of tasks w/o disturbing the other filters. =20 > I will need this to implement carp(4) ip based load balancing. While=20 > here I also removed a few paragraphs in BUGS which are no longer true=20 > (since we are using rmlocks for pfil(9)). > I'd appreciate review of the logic in pfil_list_add - just to make sure I=20 > didn't botch it. Thanks. Could it be done a way which will allow user a simple configuration of filter plly ordering? E.g. to specify that order must alway be "ipfw, then pf". -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov. ICQ#166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru [Moderator of RU.ANTI-ECOLOGY][FreeBSD][http://antigreen.org][LJ:/nuclight] From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 12:33:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244DC106566B for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:33:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23E38FC37 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:33:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from vampire.homelinux.org (dslb-088-067-252-053.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.67.252.53]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKwpI-1JbEWt239k-0006TO; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:33:27 +0100 Received: (qmail 82381 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2008 12:32:45 -0000 Received: from myhost.laiers.local (192.168.4.151) by router.laiers.local with SMTP; 17 Mar 2008 12:32:45 -0000 From: Max Laier Organization: FreeBSD To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, vadim_nuclight@mail.ru Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:32:25 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200803160005.45827.max@love2party.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200803171332.26075.max@love2party.net> X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/ySXOumNRovEC7skSMdBj3yEEPuxwHDdDctmM 93Pu1c6BEJl5w6WaBBXu99Jrm/3BZbx6Mx46xpbJQ6Xyrw5v0l Mp0XBCp9dT9QO7AaaT6oA== Cc: Subject: Re: Review please: pfil FIRST/LAST X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:33:29 -0000 On Monday 17 March 2008 11:29:15 Vadim Goncharov wrote: > On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 00:05:36 +0100; Max Laier wrote about 'Review please: pfil FIRST/LAST': > > attached is a small diff to allow pfil(9) consumers to force a > > sticky position on the head/tail of the processing queue. This > > can be used to do traffic conditioning kind of tasks w/o > > disturbing the other filters. I will need this to implement > > carp(4) ip based load balancing. While here I also removed a few > > paragraphs in BUGS which are no longer true (since we are using > > rmlocks for pfil(9)). > > > > I'd appreciate review of the logic in pfil_list_add - just to make > > sure I didn't botch it. Thanks. > > Could it be done a way which will allow user a simple configuration of > filter plly ordering? E.g. to specify that order must alway be "ipfw, > then pf". This is a separate issue. I had patches once to specify hook order via sysctl and will probably revisit this as I like the idea. For now, though, this is not what I'm interested in. -- /"\ Best regards, | mlaier@freebsd.org \ / Max Laier | ICQ #67774661 X http://pf4freebsd.love2party.net/ | mlaier@EFnet / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 14:10:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCBA106566C for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from onemda@gmail.com) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28068FC18 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:09:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from onemda@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so5244881wfa.7 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:09:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Wn0EDMX6BK5RFNCXEFaI7HEJCPwMn3dBNkp/LIx1AE0=; b=ljBaksI3siAcwJP15Z7KJ4DllhS0qsFGbSVTT/qVZdeGTrFVa1IgkRTZwXQpSMpa0O4hOv87l/Km4fY8KNYQD6qinjlKa23dEMsc3DfgaVgijSVMXXi/C+N5kA6Y9NNB9jkisyJsvKMeg3fMjIEWQacWeNbFFIL1GuK5hi9OjWE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=okFRaqjy0eyRw4BDEMFowWvUrGcsyPD0VlfhYhdu4UTC/beKrFJPot3MbC25m5W09OlMZ8h+2ZL9THE/bSioX6EVFI8m+Zw3z90j2PavqgcRdtum4Ig7xC6EIkdRR5lxIMcZN/4wBV6432w7wLDeTbrt9e4mn6zhBSoApNbPiVk= Received: by 10.142.99.21 with SMTP id w21mr129198wfb.55.1205762999418; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.178.11 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3a142e750803170709x35c27dfl59a18a28fc7910d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:09:59 +0100 From: "Paul B. Mahol" To: "KAYVEN RIESE" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3a142e750803141944y390fb3aai9263bb4c0bcb2104@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freeBSD hardware list Subject: Re: Failure to Project OOImpress X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:10:00 -0000 On 3/15/08, KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Paul B. Mahol wrote: > > > Was it connected prior or after Xorg startup? > > I think we connected prior. Should we have? I had my > computer turned off, and I booted it up. The projector > was on during boot. I thought the boot process would > take care of it but it didn't. > It should not be directly related to system in any way. Googling around, I found that Xorg resolutions and modelines must be configured for projectors in the same way as with second monitors ie creating another display or screen layout in xorg.conf. But is should work "out of box way" if for example projector/monitor support current Xorg resolution. Also there are some problems (found by googling) with gdm and projectors in linux environment (no reasons why it should not happen in freebsd also). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 15:39:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA33106566B for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:39:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from skreuzer@exit2shell.com) Received: from scruffy.exit2shell.com (64.147.114.188.static.nyinternet.net [64.147.114.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FE48FC2A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:39:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from skreuzer@exit2shell.com) Received: from scruffy.exit2shell.com (64.147.114.188.static.nyinternet.net [64.147.114.188]) by scruffy.exit2shell.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2HFeZxb078602; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:40:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from skreuzer@scruffy.exit2shell.com) Received: (from skreuzer@localhost) by scruffy.exit2shell.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m2HFeYRn078601; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:40:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from skreuzer) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:40:34 -0400 From: Steven Kreuzer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bert JW Regeer , Stanislav Sedov Message-ID: <20080317154034.GA78551@scruffy.exit2shell.com> References: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> <20080315135916.GH68662@dracon.ht-systems.ru> <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> <20080316062919.GB88526@dragon.NUXI.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080316062919.GB88526@dragon.NUXI.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Subject: Re: OpenBSD sdiff Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:39:58 -0000 On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 11:29:19PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 03:21:01PM -0700, Bert JW Regeer wrote: > > Even if BSD has no tradition to keep a separate program version, it is > > still very handy to be able to give this data to other developers if > > something is failing. > > $ ident failing-binary is the output that means something. A version > string will not. > > > > Programs that don't have a -v or --version switch are frustrating to > > Anyone used to working on BSD will not expect a -v switch. It isn't part > of BSD tradition. The simple fact there is no obivous "version" to print > just shows that in a OS that is developed and built as a whole, having a > version on the util is meaningless. > > > Dropping -v would be a bad thing, and make the tools not compatible, > > thus breaking many scripts that do expect a -v. > > Come on, how many scripts do you write that do "sdiff -v" today? I have to agree with this. I will submit the port without -v/--version and worse comes to worse, add it in later if enough people complain. -- Steven Kreuzer http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 15:54:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CA31065671 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:54:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0748FC25 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:54:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) id m2HFsWGF028590; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:54:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:54:32 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: Steven Kreuzer Message-ID: <20080317155432.GC4295@dan.emsphone.com> References: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> <20080315135916.GH68662@dracon.ht-systems.ru> <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> <20080316062919.GB88526@dragon.NUXI.org> <20080317154034.GA78551@scruffy.exit2shell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080317154034.GA78551@scruffy.exit2shell.com> X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Stanislav Sedov , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bert JW Regeer Subject: Re: OpenBSD sdiff Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:54:43 -0000 In the last episode (Mar 17), Steven Kreuzer said: > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 11:29:19PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 03:21:01PM -0700, Bert JW Regeer wrote: > > > Even if BSD has no tradition to keep a separate program version, it is > > > still very handy to be able to give this data to other developers if > > > something is failing. > > > > $ ident failing-binary is the output that means something. A version > > string will not. > > > > > > > Programs that don't have a -v or --version switch are frustrating to > > > > Anyone used to working on BSD will not expect a -v switch. It > > isn't part of BSD tradition. The simple fact there is no obivous > > "version" to print just shows that in a OS that is developed and > > built as a whole, having a version on the util is meaningless. > > > > > Dropping -v would be a bad thing, and make the tools not > > > compatible, thus breaking many scripts that do expect a -v. > > > > Come on, how many scripts do you write that do "sdiff -v" today? > > I have to agree with this. > > I will submit the port without -v/--version > and worse comes to worse, add it in later if enough people complain. On the other hand, some programs that are contributed sources or are developed outside the FreeBSD cvs tree do have versions of their own. awk and tar, for example both recognize the --version flag (but not -v since that is already used). -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 17:16:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC671065670 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:16:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pisymbol@gmail.com) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92EF08FC17 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:16:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pisymbol@gmail.com) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n40so1119140gve.39 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=ggpTlyWoKaCH66NxrUJVvmYdMtkJfRXAgPvlEnEl3e8=; b=wVyDjYIwJsDt0MsSzG8EmfovmD8JmqK68+ZdjXOr8u4FHVeoiQSmiM3n5PX4XSg+Ch6ONgkJBAiTOYEZoHsbk7+cSyxIUcf+4o9mPrWpw+iKcQDSOCXLfSYlJ0Rwv07i/VKAjKAQN2Znj40LHuc9IEe7VFy/e3cZA4ibC/YNXhM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Dl/KA5wMSVjn1k2trVes41gme9nT6AsI7oaQtqsmFb49u6d4AYWa9QI6PjGgeFliEFFh1fx6CKdhYSqDRSOZcGcNw3e2UCXmlBJ/xsTE3lQVD0OIjEOnfhydiKM8VLCiDMseoUWfMbc9BfX1aLjNdwbgWNe6XAF4pkwAA7/ZSoU= Received: by 10.151.83.12 with SMTP id k12mr289224ybl.0.1205774196091; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.230.16 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3c0b01820803171016r456711fcuc4c77427056fd208@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:16:36 -0400 From: "Alexander Sack" To: "Eddie Parra" In-Reply-To: <1a72a3390803162142m57341c0dk9db0a80664838566@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1a72a3390803162142m57341c0dk9db0a80664838566@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Freebsd 7.0 on ASUS P4R8L - No Disks Found! X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:16:40 -0000 I suppose this should go to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org? But with that said, what mode is your SATA/IDE controller in? If there is an AHCI or Legacy mode, try it again. -aps On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Eddie Parra wrote: > (Newbie) I have FreeBSD 6.3 working on my Asus AB-2800. I just attempted > a > fresh install of 7.0 and it couldn't find my disks - "No Disks Found!" > The > Motherboard Chipset is ATI RS300 / IXP200. Any suggestions would > be appreciated. Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- "What lies behind us and what lies in front of us is of little concern to what lies within us." -Ralph Waldo Emerson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 18:14:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B85106566B for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:14:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maslanbsd@gmail.com) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.168]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0443E8FC22 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:14:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from maslanbsd@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so5362160wfa.7 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:14:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=1hZd4UC5ZEYlwdH273XV3/sA3tweWVcXjMkbUytj/p8=; b=ckSd7Wmd4PY+fRdz8B4J/uvg9W6sCYIcdwoGAZz/SYAE+AWYYFNEMbUUCyrJ+Snd1pN6aBv18c5NvPwTg27BBKWLdQ1ccTGboj4a0KPZxajZY6jpNnMzS1Pw2CIzPQhy6HbaEQ4FigzRD9/TSDDcQDRCaoR9Svtk4nRNMV0672U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=wQx29YIWhpSItqrzYFS+UW97eSPwopz2VAf8tg+05RDR6IHWCw15LgBEI0OvzdcMYqYQ3Yk/nzBsQFXG+aro3GwCWwnPDejRZGOcMTL0cw8/b2gauB6joXv5Cf+GjNuRQ9IlkXOu/7L7AZVtNTEZLHSKQycB1UXtnVaHDk3EF3w= Received: by 10.142.215.5 with SMTP id n5mr454798wfg.177.1205776152435; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.19.13 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <319cceca0803171049hfea3248qaa3d5ec66a84f7a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:49:12 +0000 From: Maslan To: "Kip Macy" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, Adrian Chadd , "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:14:59 -0000 Hi all, Aren't we working on a FreeBSD/Xen port ??? I think we don't need a Linux like KVM or DragonFly's vkernel, if we could run FreeBSD in dom0. Thank a lot On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:09 AM, Kip Macy wrote: > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > On 16/03/2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > Another avenue to consider is the Linux KVM virtualization technology, which > > > is seeing a high level of interest in the Linux community and sounds > > > increasingly mature and well-exercised. It would also offer interesting > > > migration benefits for Linux users wanting to try FreeBSD, allowing them to > > > trivially create new FreeBSD installs under their existing Linux install. We > > > had an SoC project last year but I'm not sure what the outcome was; it would > > > be useful to give Fabio a ping and see how things are going. Obviously, > > > anyone doing this project would need to manage the license issues involved > > > carefully. > > > > Wasn't part of the original KVM idea to support a "hypervisor" > > interface to a parent, sort of Xen-like, providing interrupt, VM and > > inter-VM "IPC" hooks? > > > > I remember seeing this stuff a while back but for some reason all I > > read about KVM - outside of what Redhat are doing with it and Xen now > > - focuses on hardware virtualisation. > > > > A BSD-licenced KVM hypervisor + FreeBSD kernel might be an interesting > > project. I'm pretty sure Rusty wrote a very very lightweight KVM > > hypervisor as a demonstration which may serve as a starting point for > > things. > > > Nope. It is called lguest, is GPL, IBM has the rights to it and has no > interest in changing the license. > > Using KVM for architectural ideas while starting from a fresh codebase > is really the only way to go if you are concerned with licensing. > > -Kip > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- System Programmer -- I'm Searching For Perfection, So Even If U Need Portability U've To Use Assembly ;-) -- http://libosdk.berlios.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 18:38:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076071065674; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4898FC28; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2HIcDoJ019147; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2HIcCii019146; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> To: Kris Kennaway References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:38:26 -0000 :> Well, I don't think I would agree with your assessment but, :> particularly, the way vkernels are implemented in DragonFly is NOT :> in the least disruptive to kernel source. : :I was referring to the decision you made to rename all of the kernel :functions that conflicted with libc functions so that vkernels could be :linked against libc. : :Kris Huh. Well, that's about the last thing I would have thought would be considered disruptive to the kernel source. Everyone liked those changes. malloc -> kmalloc, printf -> kprintf, and so forth... just not a big deal and it allowed numerous special cases in the header files dealing with prototype conflicts to be removed in addition to allowing vkernel's to link against libc. Not only that but it removed conflicts against GCC builtins (which have their own ideas about what '%' features are valid and what are not) and properly separated kernel functions like sprintf to ksprintf, especially considering that the kernel version of sprintf does not support everything that the libc version does. For that matter you might as well throw in the system call function name changes. Instead of the actual system call in the kernel being called 'read()' it is now called 'sys_read()', so as not to conflict with 'read()'. That turned out to be a major positive clarification of the source code that made syscall entry points completely obvious to even non kernel programmers trying to read and understand it. All in all, it was a very good move for the project and I would strongly recommend that FreeBSD do the same thing. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 18:56:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAFB106566C for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xistence@0x58.com) Received: from mailexchange.osnn.net (1e.66.5646.static.theplanet.com [70.86.102.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C44E38FC26 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:56:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xistence@0x58.com) Received: (qmail 79959 invoked by uid 0); 17 Mar 2008 18:56:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wideload.network.lan) (xistence@0x58.com@68.228.228.123) by mailexchange.osnn.net with SMTP; 17 Mar 2008 18:56:16 -0000 Message-Id: From: Bert JW Regeer To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20080316062919.GB88526@dragon.NUXI.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--160290215; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:56:16 -0700 References: <20080314231404.GB99765@scruffy.exit2shell.com> <20080315135916.GH68662@dracon.ht-systems.ru> <432044E0-812E-4C13-A62D-EEA7170DADB9@0x58.com> <20080316062919.GB88526@dragon.NUXI.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Stanislav Sedov , Steven Kreuzer Subject: Re: OpenBSD sdiff Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:56:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail-8--160290215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 15, 2008, at 23:29 , David O'Brien wrote: > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 03:21:01PM -0700, Bert JW Regeer wrote: >> Even if BSD has no tradition to keep a separate program version, it >> is >> still very handy to be able to give this data to other developers if >> something is failing. > > $ ident failing-binary is the output that means something. A version > string will not. > > >> Programs that don't have a -v or --version switch are frustrating to > > Anyone used to working on BSD will not expect a -v switch. It isn't > part > of BSD tradition. The simple fact there is no obivous "version" to > print > just shows that in a OS that is developed and built as a whole, > having a > version on the util is meaningless. > >> Dropping -v would be a bad thing, and make the tools not compatible, >> thus breaking many scripts that do expect a -v. > > Come on, how many scripts do you write that do "sdiff -v" today? > > -- > -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) > I see the reasoning behind dropping it now. It certainly make sense as you and Peter Jeremy describe it, I have just never thought of it that way. Cheers, Bert JW Regeer --Apple-Mail-8--160290215-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 19:43:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFB5106564A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:43:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pisymbol@gmail.com) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.189]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989658FC23 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:43:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pisymbol@gmail.com) Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id j2so1776451tid.3 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:43:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=r9kk/Lqh9XFSExsRyZjJZLGCbfh9r4NY21mGb5i87Xs=; b=Y9oINIz5YU/i2umz/gNkLdyUvL8uhMlt7wbgiYu20U8KtKkh2aMX36uNZh+iZd2hNiB5NpACReDqE+zGU7WxD900Zs/jqzINgo2PGiZIQxe65e3wuQyKxvNiGXadoJ0xDUoE+4kMAttKxDgYibip9spsRs65MK40PTj2bRr3jFc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kVihL6/pbpxeEB/jc7WRJ0hr7hH18uRoI2mbwPRJ4z2uFGJvbmXnaXlvVkrTI00aYAOnr05EgyA8sbTk0nN4k7O5H9R1mPaiPlgmfFKG6qmSjIKc0or+4hFi0yrlXXa6MyoB6EmZybCZqt5K9BKm18baLEh/a0+9ThiUTv57phs= Received: by 10.150.177.20 with SMTP id z20mr372384ybe.49.1205783002190; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.230.16 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:43:22 -0400 From: "Alexander Sack" To: "Matthew Dillon" In-Reply-To: <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:43:26 -0000 On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Matthew Dillon wrote: > Basically DragonFly has a syscall API that allows a userland process > to create and completely control any number of VM spaces, including > the ability to pass execution control to a VM space and get it back, > and control memory mappings within that VM space (and in the virtual > kernel process itself) on a page-by-page basis, so only 'invalid' PTEs > are passed through to the virtual kernel by the real kernel and the > real kernel caches page mappings with real hardware pmaps. Any > exception that occurs within a running VM space is routed back to the > virtual kernel process by the real kernel. Any real signal (e.g. the > vkernel's 'clock' interrupt) or exception that occurs also forces > control > to return to the vkernel process. Matt, I'm sorry I'm not trying to hijack this thread but isn't the vkernel approach very similar to VMWare's hosted architecture products (such as Fusion for the Mac and Client Workstation for windows)? As I understand it, they have a regular process like vkernel called vmware-vmx which provides the management of different VM contexts running along side the host OS. It also does a passthrough for invalid PTEs to the real kernel and manages contexts in I believe the same fashion you just described. There is also an I/O subsystem a long side it to reuse the hosted drivers to managed the virtualized filesystem and devices - not sure what Dragon does. I realize that their claim to fame is as you said x86 binary code translations but I believe VMWare's product is very close to what you are describing with respect to vkernels (please correct me if I'm wrong). Its just that this thread has devolved slightly into a hypervisor vs. hosted architecture world and I believe their is room for both. Thanks! -aps -- "What lies behind us and what lies in front of us is of little concern to what lies within us." -Ralph Waldo Emerson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 20:07:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022DD1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:07:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD7F8FC15; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:07:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47DECF6D.9010806@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:07:09 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:07:08 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > :> Well, I don't think I would agree with your assessment but, > :> particularly, the way vkernels are implemented in DragonFly is NOT > :> in the least disruptive to kernel source. > : > :I was referring to the decision you made to rename all of the kernel > :functions that conflicted with libc functions so that vkernels could be > :linked against libc. > : > :Kris > > Huh. Well, that's about the last thing I would have thought would be > considered disruptive to the kernel source. I don't think there's an issue that needs solving, GCC has -nostdlib and -fno-builtin for precisely this reason. Anyway, I agree that this is the least of someone's worries during a hypothetical port of the dragonfly vkernel code. Just so everyone is clear, the scope of such an effort would not be "port the code", it would be "port the code and also finish it". Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 20:13:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A631065670; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:13:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3820F8FC17; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:13:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47DED0FB.6070205@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:13:47 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maslan References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <319cceca0803171049hfea3248qaa3d5ec66a84f7a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <319cceca0803171049hfea3248qaa3d5ec66a84f7a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, Adrian Chadd , Kip Macy , "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:13:47 -0000 Maslan wrote: > Hi all, > > Aren't we working on a FreeBSD/Xen port ??? > I think we don't need a Linux like KVM or DragonFly's vkernel, if we > could run FreeBSD in dom0. I agree that people interested in virtualization will get the most return on investment if they contribute to the Xen port, large amounts of which are complete. Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 20:16:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F523106564A; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:16:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353C58FC18; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:16:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2HKGfgc020264; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2HKGfjA020263; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:16:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> To: "Alexander Sack" References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:16:54 -0000 :Matt, I'm sorry I'm not trying to hijack this thread but isn't the vkernel :approach very similar to VMWare's hosted architecture products (such as :Fusion for the Mac and Client Workstation for windows)? : :As I understand it, they have a regular process like vkernel called :vmware-vmx which provides the management of different VM contexts running :along side the host OS. It also does a passthrough for invalid PTEs to the :real kernel and manages contexts in I believe the same fashion you just :described. There is also an I/O subsystem a long side it to reuse the :hosted drivers to managed the virtualized filesystem and devices - not sure :what Dragon does. : :I realize that their claim to fame is as you said x86 binary code :translations but I believe VMWare's product is very close to what you are :describing with respect to vkernels (please correct me if I'm wrong). Its :just that this thread has devolved slightly into a hypervisor vs. hosted :architecture world and I believe their is room for both. : :Thanks! : :-aps This reminds me of XEN. Basically instead of trying to rewrite instructions or do 100% hardware emulation it sounds like they are providing XEN-like functionality where the target OS is aware it is running inside a hypervisor and can make explicit 'shortcut' calls to the hypervisor instead of attempting to access the resource via emulated hardware. These shortcuts are going to be considerably more efficient, resulting in better performance. It is also the claim to fame that a vkernel architecture has. In fact, XEN is really much closer to a vkernel architecture then it is to a hypervisor architecture. A vkernel can be thought of as the most generic and flexible implementation, with access to many system calls verses the fairly limited set XEN provides, and a hypervisor's access to the same subset is done by emulating hardware devices. In all three cases the emulated hardware -- disk and network basically, devolves down into calling read() or write() or the real-kernel equivalent. A hypervisor has the most work to do since it is trying to emulate a hardware interface (adding another layer). XEN has less work to do as it is really not trying to emulate hardware. A vkernel has even less work to do because it is running as a userland program and can simply make the appropriate system call to implement the back-end. There are more similarities then differences. I expect VMWare is feeling the pressure from having to hack their code so much to support multiple operating systems... I mean, literally, every time microsoft comes out with an update VMWare has to hack something new in. it's really amazing how hard it is to emulate a complete hardware environment, let alone do it efficiently. Frankly, I would love to see something like VMWare force an industry-wide API for machine access which bypasses the holy hell of a mess we have with the BIOS, and see BIOSes then respec to a new far cleaner API. The BIOS is the stinking pile of horseshit that has held back OS development for the last 15 years. For hardware emulation to really work efficiently one pretty much has to dedicate an entire cpu to the emulator in order to allow it to operate more like a coprocessor and save a larger chunk of the context switch overhead which is the bane of VMWare, UML/vkernel, AND XEN. This may seem wasteful but when you are talking about systems with 4 or more cores which are more I/O and memory limited then they are cpu limited, dedicating a whole cpu to handle critical path operations would probably boost performance considerably. -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 20:40:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827451065670; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:40:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FA08FC14; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:40:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2HKduG5020506; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2HKdux3020505; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:39:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803172039.m2HKdux3020505@apollo.backplane.com> To: Kris Kennaway References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> <47DECF6D.9010806@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:40:07 -0000 :I don't think there's an issue that needs solving, GCC has -nostdlib and :-fno-builtin for precisely this reason. You are missing the point entirely. The point is to allow the vkernel to use libc, aka allow it to be compiled, linked, and run as a normal user process. What is your rationale for trying to bypass libc? Why is it so important to you that the kernel retain all those conflicting symbols when it takes literally just an hour of work to fix all the conflicts? :Anyway, I agree that this is the least of someone's worries during a :hypothetical port of the dragonfly vkernel code. Just so everyone is :clear, the scope of such an effort would not be "port the code", it :would be "port the code and also finish it". : :Kris Jeeze, you make it sound like it is some incomplete mess when it is far, far from that. The vkernel is complete, the APIs are complete. It isn't finished in the sense that certain aspects of it, primarily the 'disk' emulation, is not very well optimized, but you are doing the work an extreme disservice by belittling it with undeserving labels. Do you think that hypervisors are magically more efficient? Do you honestly believe that having to spend thousands of man hours writing one hack after another to make windows run well on VMWare is the proper development path? Do you really want to load opaque black boxes into FreeBSD's kernel which you have no control over? If you have some disagreement about the APIs used to implement the emulation then I am all ears. Is there something you don't like about the new mmap() feature? Is there something you don't like about the new vmspace_*() system calls? I'm a perfectionist but my work output is also limited. You are quite welcome to help improve our projects, but if you are expecting me to dedicate my entire life to 'improving' one single aspect of our project, the vkernel in this case, just to satisfy some twisted idea of completeness, it isn't going to happen. Code submissions are always welcome in our corner of the woods. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 20:40:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479EA1065682 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:40:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pisymbol@gmail.com) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21598FC23 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:40:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pisymbol@gmail.com) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n40so1179859gve.39 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:40:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=LN07GVxq6l3h2T+vCsUxalJx0VsGnpbFrFJ0oSy/PD0=; b=gzri8L/7opCo+37dvDRo7WUV9sEKUDcr9tZ1KHwdE6v8A2VnTkN19iaS9J4xNuEqSV2jfgT36/sKz6O6Q68tOQxw0NzqtLup5Q9fZ8/6ThhqFsK0Ft7UNnyFBdeo2r9Y2zyL6+L7nbm7PZuk5tiTsHriyaeu15tc06BehAnwhzs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GGJ8LsUSQAFaOMHdwpnszZwoeNp712GMxiEm6hGxgJW9iszEXnjL1Z98ESkkeWrQ+/ELzyoFYEP9sfJsyTJ9k1zKtK2HsUZjrshqxCyrauSs/Ra93DGucXQXBJxEDgdRhrU1ThqInq0aa1rcmPvPBTbD6vvf1tO5hr9mQQ5Gwwc= Received: by 10.150.199.21 with SMTP id w21mr416937ybf.8.1205786452412; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.230.16 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3c0b01820803171340w58918956nace0044a3506ac28@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:40:52 -0400 From: "Alexander Sack" To: "Matthew Dillon" In-Reply-To: <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:40:55 -0000 Some interesting reading for anyone who cares: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/rd/89980079%2C480988%2C1%2C0.25%2CDownload/http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/papers/cs/24361/http:zSzzSzwww.usenix.orgzSzpublicationszSzlibraryzSzproceedingszSzusenix01zSzsugermanzSzsugerman.pdf/venkitachalam01virtualizing.pdf > These shortcuts are going to be considerably more efficient, resulting > in better performance. It is also the claim to fame that a vkernel > architecture has. In fact, XEN is really much closer to a vkernel > architecture then it is to a hypervisor architecture. A vkernel can > be thought of as the most generic and flexible implementation, with > access to many system calls verses the fairly limited set XEN provides, > and a hypervisor's access to the same subset is done by emulating > hardware devices. I've never used XEN (paravirtualization) but I assume that the target OS then has special system calls or shortcuts to ask the underlying monitor/hypervisor to the right things (like allocate safe (virtual) memory instead of relying on a shadow/trap model etc.). > In all three cases the emulated hardware -- disk and network basically, > devolves down into calling read() or write() or the real-kernel > equivalent. A hypervisor has the most work to do since it is trying to > emulate a hardware interface (adding another layer). XEN has less work > to do as it is really not trying to emulate hardware. A vkernel has > even less work to do because it is running as a userland program and can > simply make the appropriate system call to implement the back-end. I'm pretty sure this is what VMWare does for the their hosted product. Its a simple userland process that makes syscalls and traps interrupts which eventually devolve into reads and writes. I believe they do a lot of performance work in interrupt coalescing and doing their darnest to prevent world-wide context switches. > There are more similarities then differences. I expect VMWare is feeling > the pressure from having to hack their code so much to support multiple > operating systems... I mean, literally, every time microsoft comes out > with an update VMWare has to hack something new in. it's really amazing > how hard it is to emulate a complete hardware environment, let alone do > it efficiently. No doubt virtualization is a tough job and I'm wondering if future hardware enhancements will make software like VMWare/vkernel/XEN obsolete in the end. > Frankly, I would love to see something like VMWare force an industry-wide > API for machine access which bypasses the holy hell of a mess we have > with the BIOS, and see BIOSes then respec to a new far cleaner API. The > BIOS is the stinking pile of horseshit that has held back OS development > for the last 15 years. EFI? Just kidding... -aps -- "What lies behind us and what lies in front of us is of little concern to what lies within us." -Ralph Waldo Emerson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 20:59:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D9A1065672 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:59:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F008FC17; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:59:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47DEDBB5.3040508@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:59:33 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> <47DECF6D.9010806@FreeBSD.org> <200803172039.m2HKdux3020505@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803172039.m2HKdux3020505@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:59:32 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > :I don't think there's an issue that needs solving, GCC has -nostdlib and > :-fno-builtin for precisely this reason. > > You are missing the point entirely. The point is to allow the vkernel > to use libc, aka allow it to be compiled, linked, and run as a normal > user process. What is your rationale for trying to bypass libc? Why > is it so important to you that the kernel retain all those conflicting > symbols when it takes literally just an hour of work to fix all the > conflicts? If your goal is to link vkernels with libc then by definition you are forced to resolve the namespace conflicts, but I don't see this as a necessary goal. A minimal standalone libkernel would do the same thing without requiring global changes to the kernel namespace, which would likely cause a lot of downstream angst for users of FreeBSD kernel code, providers of third party modules, etc. It seems pretty hard to justify that level of disruption. > :Anyway, I agree that this is the least of someone's worries during a > :hypothetical port of the dragonfly vkernel code. Just so everyone is > :clear, the scope of such an effort would not be "port the code", it > :would be "port the code and also finish it". > : > :Kris > > Jeeze, you make it sound like it is some incomplete mess when it is > far, far from that. The vkernel is complete, the APIs are complete. > It isn't finished in the sense that certain aspects of it, primarily > the 'disk' emulation, is not very well optimized, but you are doing > the work an extreme disservice by belittling it with undeserving > labels. What is the undeserving label? You agree that the code is not finished. In your previous emails you yourself gave a long discussion of changes that would need to be made to bring reasonable performance to various aspects of the vkernel code. I am not discouraging anyone from contributing to that work either in the context of the FreeBSD project or the Dragonfly project; on the contrary we are both pointing out that there is work that needs to be done by someone. Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:09:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25E21065683 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:09:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outD.internet-mail-service.net (outD.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9597D8FC2D for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:09:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:09:11 -0700 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B212D6006; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47DEDDF9.7010200@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:09:13 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexander Sack , jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:09:13 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > In all three cases the emulated hardware -- disk and network basically, > devolves down into calling read() or write() or the real-kernel > equivalent. A hypervisor has the most work to do since it is trying to > emulate a hardware interface (adding another layer). XEN has less work > to do as it is really not trying to emulate hardware. A vkernel has > even less work to do because it is running as a userland program and can > simply make the appropriate system call to implement the back-end. And jails and similar have the absolute minimum.. at the cost of making a single accessible point of failure (the one kernel). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:13:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F02E1065671 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:13:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from modelnine@modelnine.org) Received: from jord.modelnine.org (jord.modelnine.org [83.246.72.120]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6275A8FC24 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:13:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from modelnine@modelnine.org) Received: from [192.168.1.38] (a89-182-208-39.net-htp.de [89.182.208.39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: modelnine) by jord.modelnine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC89A37382 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:55:41 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Wundram To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:56:36 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200803172156.37407.modelnine@modelnine.org> Subject: valgrind on FreeBSD 7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:13:07 -0000 Hey all! It's been some time now, and I just wanted to ping quietly whether there's any chance to get (a preview of) the valgrind adapted for FreeBSD 7. I'm currently hitting a point in my development where compiling the code on Linux to run valgrind simply won't do anymore, because of code dependencies on FreeBSD (generally, the Bluetooth framework, which is completely different on Linux, and I'm not prepared to make the code portable just yet ;-)). I know there's work on getting valgrind to run on AMD64 (which should also be adapted for FreeBSD 7, I presume), but pointing me at Perforce to check it out is a futile task, I guess, as I didn't manage to find it in the FreeBSD perforce repository the last time I looked (and was pointed there), but that's probably due to my personal stupidity in using the web-frontend for Perforce (which I find absolutely horrible). Thanks for any pointer/hint/message! -- Heiko Wundram From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:16:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37136106566C; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:16:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99FC8FC20; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2HLGaIA021002; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2HLGZSf021001; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:16:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803172116.m2HLGZSf021001@apollo.backplane.com> To: Kris Kennaway References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> <47DECF6D.9010806@FreeBSD.org> <200803172039.m2HKdux3020505@apollo.backplane.com> <47DEDBB5.3040508@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:16:52 -0000 : :If your goal is to link vkernels with libc then by definition you are :forced to resolve the namespace conflicts, but I don't see this as a :necessary goal. A minimal standalone libkernel would do the same thing :without requiring global changes to the kernel namespace, which would :likely cause a lot of downstream angst for users of FreeBSD kernel code, :providers of third party modules, etc. It seems pretty hard to justify :that level of disruption. Uh, well, each to his own but it sounds like pretty flimsy reasoning considering that major changes are made to the FreeBSD kernel every few months, particularly as related to APIs. Frankly, adding a 'k' is not a big deal and holding up opaque third party modules as a reason for not evolving the system is pretty damn stupid considering the poor track record opaque black boxes have with regards to keeping up-to-date with open source software generally. If they are driving the FreeBSD development process then you have a serious problem on your hands that goes beyond renaming a few functions. We had more issues changing the mbuf M_ defines to MB_ then we ever had changing the kernel printf to kprintf. Not the least of which being that any issue that crops up due to a namespace change is immediately apparent simply due to the kernel failing to link or a module failing to load. In a word: It's not the big deal you are making it out to be. In anycase, there is a lot more to running a UML/vkernel then just calling read() or write(). You only have to browse the platform/vkernel code to see all the places where there is a very high convenience factor to not having to hack around libc. Your statement about using libkernel is short-sighted. :What is the undeserving label? You agree that the code is not finished. : In your previous emails you yourself gave a long discussion of changes :that would need to be made to bring reasonable performance to various :aspects of the vkernel code. I am not discouraging anyone from :contributing to that work either in the context of the FreeBSD project :or the Dragonfly project; on the contrary we are both pointing out that :there is work that needs to be done by someone. : :Kris I'm a perfectionist. No code is ever finished for me. 'Optimal' for someone like me is counting machine cycles and worrying about cache footprints, it's not the same definition that most other people use. I guess my problem is that you are holding this up as a red flag when it isn't even remotely close to being one. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:17:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBCD1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:17:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outU.internet-mail-service.net (outU.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.244]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F210E8FC24 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:17:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:17:49 -0700 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A432D6011; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47DEDFFF.8070703@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:17:51 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> <47DECF6D.9010806@FreeBSD.org> <200803172039.m2HKdux3020505@apollo.backplane.com> <47DEDBB5.3040508@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <47DEDBB5.3040508@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:17:50 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Matthew Dillon wrote: >> :I don't think there's an issue that needs solving, GCC has -nostdlib >> and :-fno-builtin for precisely this reason. >> >> You are missing the point entirely. The point is to allow the >> vkernel >> to use libc, aka allow it to be compiled, linked, and run as a normal >> user process. What is your rationale for trying to bypass libc? Why >> is it so important to you that the kernel retain all those >> conflicting >> symbols when it takes literally just an hour of work to fix all the >> conflicts? > > If your goal is to link vkernels with libc then by definition you are > forced to resolve the namespace conflicts, but I don't see this as a > necessary goal. A minimal standalone libkernel would do the same thing > without requiring global changes to the kernel namespace, which would > likely cause a lot of downstream angst for users of FreeBSD kernel code, > providers of third party modules, etc. It seems pretty hard to justify > that level of disruption. It should be possible to make a libemul that provides just eh services needed, by doing the syscall() operation. actually, here's an idea.. a separate interpreter/exec/loader class that embeds some of the work into the kernel and uses syscalls that are designed exactly for the job required. (loaded as a .ko when needed.). who says it needs to run posix syscalls...? > >> :Anyway, I agree that this is the least of someone's worries during a >> :hypothetical port of the dragonfly vkernel code. Just so everyone is >> :clear, the scope of such an effort would not be "port the code", it >> :would be "port the code and also finish it". >> : >> :Kris >> >> Jeeze, you make it sound like it is some incomplete mess when it >> is far, far from that. The vkernel is complete, the APIs are >> complete. >> It isn't finished in the sense that certain aspects of it, primarily >> the 'disk' emulation, is not very well optimized, but you are doing >> the work an extreme disservice by belittling it with undeserving >> labels. > > What is the undeserving label? You agree that the code is not finished. > In your previous emails you yourself gave a long discussion of changes > that would need to be made to bring reasonable performance to various > aspects of the vkernel code. I am not discouraging anyone from > contributing to that work either in the context of the FreeBSD project > or the Dragonfly project; on the contrary we are both pointing out that > there is work that needs to be done by someone. > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:26:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA3A1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:26:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CA98FC13; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:25:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47DEE1E9.100@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:26:01 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <47DD1FFF.6070004@FreeBSD.org> <200803170043.m2H0h2qO010175@apollo.backplane.com> <47DDCCC3.3020408@FreeBSD.org> <200803171838.m2HIcCii019146@apollo.backplane.com> <47DECF6D.9010806@FreeBSD.org> <200803172039.m2HKdux3020505@apollo.backplane.com> <47DEDBB5.3040508@FreeBSD.org> <200803172116.m2HLGZSf021001@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803172116.m2HLGZSf021001@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jordan Gordeev , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:26:00 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > I guess my problem is that you are holding this up as a red flag when > it isn't even remotely close to being one. What I have said is that the dragonfly vkernel work is the interesting beginning of a project, but that further work needs to be done before the project is finished in the sense of having reasonable performance, and anyone approaching a FreeBSD port needs to be aware of the scope of the work needed. If you feel that is "belittling" you, then I'll have to beg your indulgence for not also donning a miniskirt and pompoms. Now that's an image I bet you all weren't expecting. Hah! :-D Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:43:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC7E106564A; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D5D8FC18; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2HLhSYn021240; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2HLhP03021235; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:43:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803172143.m2HLhP03021235@apollo.backplane.com> To: Julian Elischer References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> <47DEDDF9.7010200@elischer.org> Cc: Alexander Sack , jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:43:41 -0000 :> In all three cases the emulated hardware -- disk and network basically, :> devolves down into calling read() or write() or the real-kernel :> equivalent. A hypervisor has the most work to do since it is trying to :> emulate a hardware interface (adding another layer). XEN has less work :> to do as it is really not trying to emulate hardware. A vkernel has :> even less work to do because it is running as a userland program and can :> simply make the appropriate system call to implement the back-end. : :And jails and similar have the absolute minimum.. :at the cost of making a single accessible point of failure :(the one kernel). Yes, absolutely. Jails have the greatest performance, though the characterization of a single point of failure is a bit misleading. The problem with a jail is that all programs running under it are directly accessing the real kernel and are able to exercise *ALL* code paths into that kernel, even many root code paths, and thus expose all the bugs in that kernel. A vkernel or hypervisor use only a subset of the real kernel's functionality resulting in much lower exposure to potential kernel bugs. While a vkernel or kernel running under a hypervisor is fully exposed, a failure of same does not cause the whole machine to fail and a recovery 'reboot' can be as short as 5 seconds. The cost is performance. Even if you were to instrument the kernel code with full resource control (jailed memory use, I/O, descriptors, real-kernel memory use, etc)... even if you were to do that, it still doesn't solve the bug exposure issue. In anycase, there are only two performance bottlenecks that really matter for a vkernel or hypervisor: (1) system calls from virtualized processes to their virtualized kernels, and (2) MMU invalid page faults. The I/O path is a distant third, really requiring only a co-thread or two for write()s to be made efficient. (1) and (2) are not easy problems to solve, mainly due to the need for the real kernel to have exclusive access to the context when doing an iret (a R/W shared mapping of the top of the kernel stack is a security hole). I do think a read-only mapping might be doable, particularly for the standard syscall path which only modifies EAX and EDX in the critical path. That would cut the overhead in half. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 21:58:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D341065679; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:58:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB1D8FC20; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:58:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2HLwQa7021441; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2HLwPSI021438; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:58:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> To: Igor Shmukler References: <200803170012.m2H0C02i009972@apollo.backplane.com> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[4]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:58:37 -0000 : :Matt, : :You sure won't argue that UML isolation is inherently better than one that can be provided by a hypervisor. If the performance is the same, what are you gaining? : :Hypervisor while slow, allows treating a complete OS with all applications as a black box. Why would I choose UML over a hypervisor? : :I am not trying to say there cannot be a place for vkernel. [I don't even yet understand what is does or how.] However, as a hosting company, why would I choose UML over a hypervisor? : :... : :igor Well, whos hypervisor are you using? -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 22:49:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766AD106564A for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:49:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from murray@stokely.org) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062D08FC24 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:49:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from murray@stokely.org) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so798404uge.37 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.116.19 with SMTP id t19mr3206293ugm.47.1205794157262; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.9 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2a7894eb0803171549pe0c2fffqa23ed6813f45a390@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:49:17 -0700 From: "Murray Stokely" Sender: murray@stokely.org To: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 11dfc6fc963496b9 Cc: Subject: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:49:19 -0000 The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization for the Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin next week so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please send them to soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. A good student project has a well defined purpose, some key FreeBSD developers that could be identified as potential mentors, and is feasible for a student to complete in a few months time. The existing ideas list is available here : http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ If you can suggest something (getting specific parts of valgrind working on FreeBSD?) then please provide information in the form of the other projects listed on the page as far as difficulty level, requirements, etc.. Thanks, - Murray From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 22:43:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F061065675 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:43:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from murray@stokely.org) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2231D8FC26 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:43:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from murray@stokely.org) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n40so1208151gve.39 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.57.5 with SMTP id f5mr463543yba.71.1205792140613; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.9 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:15:40 -0700 From: "Murray Stokely" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:03:00 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:43:59 -0000 The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization for the Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin next week so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please send them to soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. A good student project has a well defined purpose, some key FreeBSD developers that could be identified as potential mentors, and is feasible for a student to complete in a few months time. The existing ideas list is available here : http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ If you can suggest something (getting specific parts of valgrind working on FreeBSD?) then please provide information in the form of the other projects listed on the page as far as difficulty level, requirements, etc.. Thanks, - Murray From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 23:38:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08431065671 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:38:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207E08FC1C for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:38:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so810285uge.37 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:38:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=l22WZODY2itKazjjmwfnOBPRNNOn2Fhj4UEIaQY9OPo=; b=d49Cf1Wf7vZvOB7gL2B8jIMEXfMRFOGruQiKHh3EuXBc/+EhmMh3mMhOZftALTO8CZvacU8gDJLrnp8/3M6r1QtAVEz9cjDRXEVSgvQC8YP5zZ+5PoUjErTGnPayKVviW3tX+d1L5/RppMI+XwhlqWVRuUrSKF2y0nGqXZi+yYY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kreKNGZxxjv1KRAKRxXwLQS4b5luwGPUVTErNA3kDKCR3+dmeCtxdZQGveFxJaQ+c3upQ5dPzgF9Dvf6mzMiAf/N4UD3qT9iurxnSUmK0zgmdbtI5V+aeAM9eTMGqg8pBobnVyo7QmOWrsNZ2S6qp1+VVwWM4skwdaSl3m4uBvk= Received: by 10.67.86.5 with SMTP id o5mr3235500ugl.50.1205797117712; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.248.11 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:38:37 +0000 From: "Igor Mozolevsky" Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com To: "Murray Stokely" In-Reply-To: <2a7894eb0803171549pe0c2fffqa23ed6813f45a390@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171549pe0c2fffqa23ed6813f45a390@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: d238708749bb708b Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:38:40 -0000 On 17/03/2008, Murray Stokely wrote: > The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization for > the Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin > next week so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please > send them to soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. [snip] How about tick()-less kernel - replace dependance on regular hearbeat with a delta-queue that could be used to program the time of the next scheduled interrupt? You could start with the delta-queue pretending to be a regular heart beat then work on changing deltas between events... I'm sure there was a mention of something similar in Linux... Cheers, Igor From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 00:49:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB887106566B for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:49:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97D48FC23 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:49:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 8496 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2008 00:49:19 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 18 Mar 2008 00:49:19 -0000 Message-ID: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:43:49 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Hackers X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:49:20 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I have 4 computers, 1 big FreeBSD-current (4 x86 procs), 2 GentooLinux (1 is a dial AMD Opteron, the other a dual older x86), and 1 MacOSX (dual PPC). I was thinking about looking for two items, I'm not sure if I want one or both of them: either some software to let me merely remotely manage them (public software, mind) or, even better, something to get these disparate hardwares to be able to work together, and (as much as possible) to be able to share work. What might be the best, in terms of ability, and especially the ability to make these work together? If they're not a FreeBSD port, as long as they're reasonably stable, I don't mind porting things, but it needs to be stable on all those CPUs. Could you reo\commend me something? I'll go chase each one down, I won't jump on you if you're wrong, gimme your guesses, ok? Thanks -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH3xBFz62J6PPcoOkRAoTnAJ9YmcaNg54AF8Gz7MN+DO5KZKdVzACfcOoM tys5V3b/kiN1+nzDGhtv7Lk= =YAXx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 02:53:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD771065670 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:53:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: from relay00.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.5.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4753F8FC12 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:53:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: (qmail 12928 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2008 02:53:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 18 Mar 2008 02:53:29 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 209.68.2.70 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:53:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: Heiko Wundram In-Reply-To: <200803172156.37407.modelnine@modelnine.org> Message-ID: <20080317214510.G89676@odysseus.silby.com> References: <200803172156.37407.modelnine@modelnine.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: valgrind on FreeBSD 7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:53:31 -0000 On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Heiko Wundram wrote: > Hey all! > > It's been some time now, and I just wanted to ping quietly whether there's any > chance to get (a preview of) the valgrind adapted for FreeBSD 7. > > out is a futile task, I guess, as I didn't manage to find it in the FreeBSD > perforce repository the last time I looked (and was pointed there), but > that's probably due to my personal stupidity in using the web-frontend for > Perforce (which I find absolutely horrible). > > Thanks for any pointer/hint/message! > > -- > Heiko Wundram Here's a tarball of what's in perforce right now. I tried it a little bit, and it seemed to work for me. Make sure to install the kernel module! http://www.silby.com/valgrind_freebsd_3.tar.gz But don't send me questions about it - I'm not an expert on it, I'm just the guy who grabbed it from perforce and found that it seems to work. :) -Mike From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 05:44:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371F01065672 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:44:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (cain.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F2B8FC12 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:44:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from inchoate.gsoft.com.au (inchoate.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2I5igOg029573 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:14:42 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:14:23 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200803172156.37407.modelnine@modelnine.org> <20080317214510.G89676@odysseus.silby.com> In-Reply-To: <20080317214510.G89676@odysseus.silby.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1484986.grO0SB4nst"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200803181614.33494.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -3.977 () ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 203.31.81.10 Cc: Heiko Wundram Subject: Re: valgrind on FreeBSD 7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:44:44 -0000 --nextPart1484986.grO0SB4nst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Mike Silbersack wrote: > Here's a tarball of what's in perforce right now. I tried it a > little bit, and it seemed to work for me. Make sure to install the > kernel module! > > http://www.silby.com/valgrind_freebsd_3.tar.gz > > But don't send me questions about it - I'm not an expert on it, I'm > just the guy who grabbed it from perforce and found that it seems to > work. :) Thanks for that (and to whomever is cutting the code)! Valgrind is an enormously helpful tool. =2D-=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C --nextPart1484986.grO0SB4nst Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBH31bB5ZPcIHs/zowRAl71AJ4sgQRv+Yv0pws38sbB9kdeZ8SWvACfflNl JeJeS0gRe8vbhBoAAdy+Gws= =r/kW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1484986.grO0SB4nst-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 07:34:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BE5106564A; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:34:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from f131.mail.ru (f131.mail.ru [194.67.57.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C09C8FC1A; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:34:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from mail by f131.mail.ru with local id 1JbWLD-000ALT-00; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:34:35 +0300 Received: from [69.114.219.103] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:34:35 +0300 From: Igor Shmukler To: Matthew Dillon Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: [69.114.219.103] Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:34:35 +0300 References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re[6]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Igor Shmukler List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:34:37 -0000 Matt, We use VMWare Server at work. It does not have the same nice image management interface and/or video capture as commercial counterparts. However, it is is free and testing on it helps us out big time. We never concluded whether it maked sense to pay for VMWare licenses, instead of using free shell scripts legally available for free. I have used UML for development in the past. I even used bochs once to debug a boot loader. All nice tools. Beats real hardware for me. Xen and KVM are significantly slower than commercial products due to hardware switching. There is a GPLed product that works about as fast as VMWare's BT - VirtualBox by innotek. Sun recently scooped them up. Don't you use something like VMWare for development and debugging? In production, we don't use any of these products - too slow and too much RAM would be required. Sincerely, Igor Shmukler, http://www.elusiva.com -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Dillon To: Igor Shmukler Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re[4]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions > > > : > :Matt, > : > :You sure won't argue that UML isolation is inherently better than one that can be provided by a hypervisor. If the performance is the same, what are you gaining? > : > :Hypervisor while slow, allows treating a complete OS with all applications as a black box. Why would I choose UML over a hypervisor? > : > :I am not trying to say there cannot be a place for vkernel. [I don't even yet understand what is does or how.] However, as a hosting company, why would I choose UML over a hypervisor? > : > :... > : > :igor > > Well, whos hypervisor are you using? > > -Matt > Matthew Dillon > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 07:43:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0921065673 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:43:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707178FC19 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:43:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m2I7hW3x004408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:43:33 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2I7hWaG078831; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:43:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2I7hWHR078830; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:43:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:43:32 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Matthew Dillon Message-ID: <20080318074332.GS44676@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tMbDGjvJuJijemkf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:43:38 -0000 --tMbDGjvJuJijemkf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 01:16:41PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > This reminds me of XEN. Basically instead of trying to rewrite > instructions or do 100% hardware emulation it sounds like they are > providing XEN-like functionality where the target OS is aware it is > running inside a hypervisor and can make explicit 'shortcut' calls to > the hypervisor instead of attempting to access the resource via > emulated hardware. That reminds me of IBM VM/CMS: CP (the hypervisor) had a variety of magic "syscalls" (via the DIAGNOSE instruction) that CMS would use to perform (eg) real I/O. > Frankly, I would love to see something like VMWare force an industry-w= ide > API for machine access which bypasses the holy hell of a mess we have It would need to be open and I can't see any particular driver for VMWare (or anyone else) to force this. > with the BIOS, and see BIOSes then respec to a new far cleaner API. T= he > BIOS is the stinking pile of horseshit that has held back OS developme= nt > for the last 15 years. I'd go further and say that BIOSes are getting worse: Back in the AT-clone days, you could just totally ignore the BIOS once you'd gotten the kernel loaded. Now you _have_ to keep talking to the BIOS for things like ACPI - but the BIOSes are still just as broken as they used to be. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --tMbDGjvJuJijemkf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkffcqQACgkQ/opHv/APuIe2rACfe+2P3UZbyZZuQDNlQic8Jm7I DQMAoK2X2gB2BqiGT9U1SxvVEq+w42cK =1toW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tMbDGjvJuJijemkf-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 08:24:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA52106566C for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:24:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.192]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87478FC23 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:24:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m2I8OV6m025405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:24:34 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2I8OUTO079115; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:24:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2I8OSLN079114; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:24:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:24:28 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080318082428.GC44676@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RE3pQJLXZi4fr8Xo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:24:42 -0000 --RE3pQJLXZi4fr8Xo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:43:49PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >I have 4 computers, 1 big FreeBSD-current (4 x86 procs), 2 GentooLinux (1 >is a dial AMD Opteron, the other a dual older x86), and 1 MacOSX (dual >PPC). I was thinking about looking for two items, I'm not sure if I want >one or both of them: either some software to let me merely remotely manage >them (public software, mind) What do you see "remotely manage them" covering? For a small heterogenous network, it's not clear what you would save over just sticking the config files into CVS or similar. > or, even better, something to get these >disparate hardwares to be able to work together, and (as much as possible) >to be able to share work. Again, what do you mean by "share work"? Are you looking for something like beowulf? --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --RE3pQJLXZi4fr8Xo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfffDwACgkQ/opHv/APuIejwACgolVd7Y7aMDT8uqV+ARXUxgK0 B0kAoJuU81HlCKOKQ8GVDSsa2ZPpv44N =CfdL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RE3pQJLXZi4fr8Xo-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 08:28:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBBC106566B for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:28:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555468FC14 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:28:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1CDD21CC060; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:28:16 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:28:16 -0000 On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:43:49PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > I have 4 computers, 1 big FreeBSD-current (4 x86 procs), 2 GentooLinux (1 > is a dial AMD Opteron, the other a dual older x86), and 1 MacOSX (dual > PPC). I was thinking about looking for two items, I'm not sure if I want > one or both of them: either some software to let me merely remotely manage > them (public software, mind) or, even better, something to get these > disparate hardwares to be able to work together, and (as much as possible) > to be able to share work. > > What might be the best, in terms of ability, and especially the ability to > make these work together? If they're not a FreeBSD port, as long as > they're reasonably stable, I don't mind porting things, but it needs to be > stable on all those CPUs. Could you reo\commend me something? I'll go > chase each one down, I won't jump on you if you're wrong, gimme your > guesses, ok? I don't understand your question. It's almost like you're asking two questions: 1) How can I manage all of these machines remotely? (E.g. ssh, VNC, serial console, KVM, etc.) 2) How can I harness the power of all of these machines simultaneously? (e.g. some form of CPU clustering) Can you elaborate? -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 09:11:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645521065673 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:11:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shase@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: from smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP.andrew.cmu.edu [128.2.10.83]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273178FC18 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:11:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shase@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: from [128.237.238.177] ([128.237.238.177]) (user=shase mech=PLAIN (0 bits)) by smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2I8xdvq013933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:59:39 -0400 Message-ID: <47DF847F.4020802@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:59:43 -0400 From: sanket hase User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.60 on 128.2.10.83 Cc: Subject: Freebsd/Xen: pcifront: IRQ resource allocation failed: Query X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:11:05 -0000 Hi All, I am a Masters student at Carnegie Mellon Uni, working on xen/freebsd opensource project. I have been working on pci-passtrhough support for freebsd domU. I am testing pcifront on freebsd domU using following sound card [ Cirrus Logic CS 4614/22/24 [CrystalClear SoundFusion Audio Accelerator] Following sound driver is used for this sound card on Freebsd: *snd_csa*-- Crystal Semiconductor CS461x/462x/4280 PCI bridge device driver I am able to detect the card. pci3: on pcib3 csa0: mem 0xfafff000-0xfaffffff,0xfae00000-0xfaefffff irq 16 at device 5.0 on pci3 csa: card is Turtle Beach Santa Cruz But going ahead IRQ resource allocations fails, before interrupt handler can be setup. I found that it fails in "rman_reserve_resource_bound" Because: r = TAILQ_FIRST(&rm->rm_list) = is still NULL , as it was initialized. Here is the stacktrace: (gdb) where #0 rman_reserve_resource_bound (rm=0xc07b3de0, start=16, end=16, count=1, bound=0, flags=4, dev=0xc0d8f700) at ../../../kern/subr_rman.c:282 #1 0xc01747bc in rman_reserve_resource (rm=0xc07b3de0, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=4, dev=0xc0d8f700) at ../../../kern/subr_rman.c:491 #2 0xc035cb75 in nexus_alloc_resource (bus=0xc0db3000, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at ../../../i386/i386/nexus.c:367 #3 0xc016adae in bus_generic_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0d8f800, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #4 0xc016adae in bus_generic_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0d8f500, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #5 0xc016af34 in resource_list_alloc (rl=0xc0e03604, bus=0xc0e04b00, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #6 0xc00ab3d5 in pci_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0e04b00, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=0, end=4294967295, count=1, flags=6) at ../../../dev/pci/pci.c:3488 #7 0xc016ad1c in bus_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=0, end=4294967295, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #8 0xc00b54e6 in csa_attach (dev=0xc0d8f700) at bus.h:376 #9 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0d8f700) at device_if.h:178 #10 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0d8f700) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #11 0xc016aad9 in bus_generic_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2907 #12 0xc00ae8bf in pci_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at ../../../dev/pci/pci.c:2611 #13 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at device_if.h:178 #14 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #15 0xc016aad9 in bus_generic_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2907 #16 0xc033811b in xpcib_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at ../../../dev/xen/pcifront/pcifront.c:702 #17 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at device_if.h:178 #18 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #19 0xc016aad9 in bus_generic_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2907 #20 0xc03383ab in xpcife_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at ../../../dev/xen/pcifront/pcifront.c:640 #21 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at device_if.h:178 #22 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #23 0xc033792a in pcifront_backend_changed (xdev=0xc0e05000, be_state=XenbusStateConnected) at ../../../dev/xen/pcifront/pcifront.c:346 #24 0xc032fea8 in otherend_changed (watch=0xc0e05000, vec=0xc0defa00, len=2) at ../../../xen/xenbus/xenbus_probe.c:330 #25 0xc0330aec in xenwatch_thread (unused=0x0) at ../../../xen/xenbus/xenbus_xs.c:741 #26 0xc0129968 in fork_exit (callout=0xc0330980 , arg=0x0, frame=0xc588bd38) at ../../../kern/kern_fork.c:795 #27 0xc0350e84 in fork_trampoline () at ../../../i386/xen/exception.s:240 (gdb) p rm->rm_list $4 = {tqh_first = 0x0, tqh_last = 0xc07b3de0} (gdb) tqh_first is still 0 ( as it was initialzed ) which ultimately causes the IRQ resource allocation to fail. Am I missing anything ? Looking forward to hearing from you,Thanks for the help in advance. Thanks, Sanket Hase From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 09:41:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25CD8106564A for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:41:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shase@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: from smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP.andrew.cmu.edu [128.2.10.212]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40088FC24 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:41:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shase@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: from [128.237.238.177] ([128.237.238.177]) (user=shase mech=PLAIN (0 bits)) by smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2I93qS3002552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:03:52 -0400 Message-ID: <47DF857C.3050605@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:03:56 -0400 From: sanket hase User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070801) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.60 on 128.2.10.212 Subject: Freebsd/Xen: pcifront: IRQ resource allocation failed: Query X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:41:32 -0000 Hi , I am a Masters student at Carnegie Mellon Uni, working on xen/freebsd opensource project. I have been working on pci-passtrhough support for freebsd domU. I am testing pcifront on freebsd domU using following sound card [ Cirrus Logic CS 4614/22/24 [CrystalClear SoundFusion Audio Accelerator] Following sound driver is used for this sound card on Freebsd: *snd_csa*-- Crystal Semiconductor CS461x/462x/4280 PCI bridge device driver I am able to detect the card. pci3: on pcib3 csa0: mem 0xfafff000-0xfaffffff,0xfae00000-0xfaefffff irq 16 at device 5.0 on pci3 csa: card is Turtle Beach Santa Cruz But going ahead IRQ resource allocations fails, before interrupt handler can be setup. I found that it fails in "rman_reserve_resource_bound" Because: r = TAILQ_FIRST(&rm->rm_list) = is still NULL , as it was initialized. Here is the stacktrace: (gdb) where #0 rman_reserve_resource_bound (rm=0xc07b3de0, start=16, end=16, count=1, bound=0, flags=4, dev=0xc0d8f700) at ../../../kern/subr_rman.c:282 #1 0xc01747bc in rman_reserve_resource (rm=0xc07b3de0, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=4, dev=0xc0d8f700) at ../../../kern/subr_rman.c:491 #2 0xc035cb75 in nexus_alloc_resource (bus=0xc0db3000, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at ../../../i386/i386/nexus.c:367 #3 0xc016adae in bus_generic_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0d8f800, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #4 0xc016adae in bus_generic_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0d8f500, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #5 0xc016af34 in resource_list_alloc (rl=0xc0e03604, bus=0xc0e04b00, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=16, end=16, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #6 0xc00ab3d5 in pci_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0e04b00, child=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=0, end=4294967295, count=1, flags=6) at ../../../dev/pci/pci.c:3488 #7 0xc016ad1c in bus_alloc_resource (dev=0xc0d8f700, type=1, rid=0xc0d8f994, start=0, end=4294967295, count=1, flags=6) at bus_if.h:263 #8 0xc00b54e6 in csa_attach (dev=0xc0d8f700) at bus.h:376 #9 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0d8f700) at device_if.h:178 #10 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0d8f700) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #11 0xc016aad9 in bus_generic_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2907 #12 0xc00ae8bf in pci_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at ../../../dev/pci/pci.c:2611 #13 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at device_if.h:178 #14 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0e04b00) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #15 0xc016aad9 in bus_generic_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2907 #16 0xc033811b in xpcib_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at ../../../dev/xen/pcifront/pcifront.c:702 #17 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at device_if.h:178 #18 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0d8f500) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #19 0xc016aad9 in bus_generic_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2907 #20 0xc03383ab in xpcife_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at ../../../dev/xen/pcifront/pcifront.c:640 #21 0xc0169ecf in device_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at device_if.h:178 #22 0xc016a9f0 in device_probe_and_attach (dev=0xc0d8f800) at ../../../kern/subr_bus.c:2369 #23 0xc033792a in pcifront_backend_changed (xdev=0xc0e05000, be_state=XenbusStateConnected) at ../../../dev/xen/pcifront/pcifront.c:346 #24 0xc032fea8 in otherend_changed (watch=0xc0e05000, vec=0xc0defa00, len=2) at ../../../xen/xenbus/xenbus_probe.c:330 #25 0xc0330aec in xenwatch_thread (unused=0x0) at ../../../xen/xenbus/xenbus_xs.c:741 #26 0xc0129968 in fork_exit (callout=0xc0330980 , arg=0x0, frame=0xc588bd38) at ../../../kern/kern_fork.c:795 #27 0xc0350e84 in fork_trampoline () at ../../../i386/xen/exception.s:240 (gdb) p rm->rm_list $4 = {tqh_first = 0x0, tqh_last = 0xc07b3de0} (gdb) tqh_first is still 0 ( as it was initialzed ) which ultimately causes the IRQ resource allocation to fail. Am I missing anything ? Looking forward to hearing from you,Thanks for the help in advance. Thanks, Sanket Hase From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 10:16:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A465106566C for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:16:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanefbsd@gmail.com) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.245]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA128FC16 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:16:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanefbsd@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c16so1538804ana.7 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:16:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; bh=rupJdIoakXJSts+detxIFF8YhfS8lPgfazvhhMdBZNo=; b=uXtRv9OA84qDeDCgbdb8fC0O+hOMkSx60X75JbT+4C8E0hASA1M/ZA1rzAKz3sBUxCopXLE8wkxa9pOWMVQOcDCNUTu9LkuU8a7JiuBFeZojoby26MiWbWuJ+SyC59CZ+a6jm5fAkbqoevogjnv7G1YTjkJ+uWTD2+8+gnADj30= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=TJ4xsAZRU3wRe1m1lLQqG3AIBCXFhooz3YIo+9EYQh/gs6NdC0YfTFUvjJ1D+wiLDgYiQiXdK+90sHjTla3z4AGWORjz+Oat/A5MrT2S4ztNyzp/ns30uYqWSKZDNuHlPykcXYec4BKKro+Ru7W+PzY6+5XRm8CX2paMRizqcvU= Received: by 10.100.58.19 with SMTP id g19mr1208569ana.44.1205833635211; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.10.43? ( [99.139.48.67]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e27sm14999891elf.1.2008.03.18.02.47.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: Garrett Cooper To: Murray Stokely In-Reply-To: <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:47:12 -0700 References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Garrett Cooper Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:16:06 -0000 On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:15 PM, Murray Stokely wrote: > The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization > for the > Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin > next week > so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please send > them to > soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. A good > student > project has a well defined purpose, some key FreeBSD developers that > could > be identified as potential mentors, and is feasible for a student to > complete in a few months time. The existing ideas list is available > here : > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ > > If you can suggest something (getting specific parts of valgrind > working on > FreeBSD?) then please provide information in the form of the other > projects > listed on the page as far as difficulty level, requirements, etc.. > > Thanks, > > - Murray "Sysinstall" - Isn't this being handled to some extent? I remember someone posting an RFC a few months ago. They may need a helping hand in coding stuff up, but it sounded like there was a plan already in place. "Improving the USB stack in FreeBSD" - Wasn't HFS working on that too? Duplicating work might not be a good thing.. "FAT (msdosfs) infrastructure work" - (extension) Microsoft is coming up with a new extension to VFAT (they're calling it x-FAT), which supports large devices. There's also FATX (Xbox based FAT-spinoff FS). I was just thinking that combining the three into a base library with individual extensions might be a good idea. "NTFS - sync FreeBSD up with ntfs project" - NTFS support in FreeBSD is a bit out of date, and panics on some platforms with some configurations. Bringing NTFS in the kernel / userland up to date would be a welcome improvement for many users. FYI, I'm still working on the following items: 1. "Add hashed .db support to pkg_tools" (accepted) 2. "Utility for safe updating of ports in base system" (assumed) 3. "Package tools improvements" (assumed) Not saying helping hands wouldn't be welcome with my work, but I owe FreeBSD / GSoC as much of my time for last year and I've committed myself to seeing my work through. Thanks, -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 10:37:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B3E106566B for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E358FC15 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JbZCQ-00077u-AO for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:42 +0000 Received: from 195.208.174.178 ([195.208.174.178]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:42 +0000 Received: from vadim_nuclight by 195.208.174.178 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:42 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Vadim Goncharov Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:32 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Nuclear Lightning @ Tomsk, TPU AVTF Hostel Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.208.174.178 X-Comment-To: Murray Stokely User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD) Sender: news Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: vadim_nuclight@mail.ru List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:37:50 -0000 Hi Murray Stokely! On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:15:40 -0700; Murray Stokely wrote about 'Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas': > The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization for the > Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin next week > so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please send them to > soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. A good student > project has a well defined purpose, some key FreeBSD developers that could > be identified as potential mentors, and is feasible for a student to > complete in a few months time. The existing ideas list is available here : > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ > If you can suggest something (getting specific parts of valgrind working on > FreeBSD?) then please provide information in the form of the other projects > listed on the page as far as difficulty level, requirements, etc.. I'm going to write a proposal about a bunch of changes in ipfw2 (dynamic rules and others) in a day or two and post it for architectural discussion to ipfw@. Has it any chances to go to SoC 2008 ? -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov. ICQ#166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru [Moderator of RU.ANTI-ECOLOGY][FreeBSD][http://antigreen.org][LJ:/nuclight] From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 12:57:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479B3106564A for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:57:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from samflanker@gmail.com) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCE38FC26 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:57:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from samflanker@gmail.com) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e11so3439289rng.7 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:57:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PTYVOmIX2k75xD4mymh73jUdvrFFD/QVX5PCOe6zgUQ=; b=EHD7oM4QxtCnaRj5OvleXpFB5QeEX8PwLQg9VMs07ua6ETe2EClYPoVTWjCHi/y5U3pFMFaUAD4WvJ3+a9A1BgfFRzZdvU+9AQBaiH4y96aJD4WftxSvr9bYyex81OsHfAJcqXOpiWqi65eP1GwTwH6+/zBFKw7xF6Runl7zWfs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QovAU61owXS1fm60uLRaJ34Sx/gWfMBnIKOFxeOHqoGTvrSiOZhNKGl+jxBUK1CiG17gg/Nfg7zW9YrmOKUv2uNadXaaVkR4ryHYsgwgt/qxq9eIniorrb87YI6JFQq9tld7e/iWaRejGHUN5h0dH7vN19L/zt7Tco9g81wA9u4= Received: by 10.150.206.1 with SMTP id d1mr1000524ybg.4.1205845069474; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.12.89? ( [217.74.44.57]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b45sm6956841hsa.18.2008.03.18.05.57.47 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47DFBC49.4000002@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:57:45 +0300 From: sam User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ep@exvere.net Subject: Re: Freebsd 7.0 on ASUS P4R8L - No Disks Found! X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:57:50 -0000 > But with that said, what mode is your SATA/IDE controller in? If there is > an AHCI or Legacy mode, try it again. or Compatible mode (not Enchansed) in BIOS /Vladimir Ermakov // From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 13:03:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E437A106566C for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wmoran@collaborativefusion.com) Received: from mx00.pub.collaborativefusion.com (mx00.pub.collaborativefusion.com [206.210.89.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E318FC17 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wmoran@collaborativefusion.com) Received: from vanquish.ws.pitbpa0.priv.collaborativefusion.com (vanquish.ws.pitbpa0.priv.collaborativefusion.com [192.168.2.162]) (SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by wingspan with esmtp; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:53:44 -0400 id 00056413.47DFBB58.0001517F Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:53:43 -0400 From: Bill Moran To: Chuck Robey Message-Id: <20080318085343.eed4474c.wmoran@collaborativefusion.com> In-Reply-To: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> Organization: Collaborative Fusion X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.8; i386-portbld-freebsd6.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:03:49 -0000 In response to Chuck Robey : > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I have 4 computers, 1 big FreeBSD-current (4 x86 procs), 2 GentooLinux (1 > is a dial AMD Opteron, the other a dual older x86), and 1 MacOSX (dual > PPC). I was thinking about looking for two items, I'm not sure if I want > one or both of them: either some software to let me merely remotely manage > them (public software, mind) or, even better, something to get these > disparate hardwares to be able to work together, and (as much as possible) > to be able to share work. > > What might be the best, in terms of ability, and especially the ability to > make these work together? If they're not a FreeBSD port, as long as > they're reasonably stable, I don't mind porting things, but it needs to be > stable on all those CPUs. Could you reo\commend me something? I'll go > chase each one down, I won't jump on you if you're wrong, gimme your > guesses, ok? Your question is extraordinarily vague. I manage multiple systems remotely using ssh, so I'm not sure what additional "stuff" you want. However, here are some links that may provide some help. All of these are FreeBSD ports, and I'm fairly sure they'll work on Gentoo and OSX as well: http://www.webmin.com/ http://www.cfengine.org/ http://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/ -- Bill Moran Collaborative Fusion Inc. http://people.collaborativefusion.com/~wmoran/ wmoran@collaborativefusion.com Phone: 412-422-3463x4023 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 13:11:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9048D1065672 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:11:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED9D8FC13 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:11:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1889D46CA2; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:11:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Peter Jeremy In-Reply-To: <20080318074332.GS44676@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20080318130927.D17188@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080316122108.S44049@fledge.watson.org> <200803162313.m2GNDbvl009550@apollo.backplane.com> <3c0b01820803171243k5eb6abd3y1e1c44694c6be0f6@mail.gmail.com> <200803172016.m2HKGfjA020263@apollo.backplane.com> <20080318074332.GS44676@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:11:34 -0000 On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Peter Jeremy wrote: >> with the BIOS, and see BIOSes then respec to a new far cleaner API. >> The >> BIOS is the stinking pile of horseshit that has held back OS development >> for the last 15 years. > > I'd go further and say that BIOSes are getting worse: Back in the AT-clone > days, you could just totally ignore the BIOS once you'd gotten the kernel > loaded. Now you _have_ to keep talking to the BIOS for things like ACPI - > but the BIOSes are still just as broken as they used to be. On Sun's Niagara (sun4v) platform, it is expected that all OS's will sit on top of the hypervisor that ships in the firmware, abstracting away countless basic hardware services behind hypercalls. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 15:10:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DF11065678; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:10:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D268FC1C; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:10:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2IFAYsO020501; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:10:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m2IFAY8A020500; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:10:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:10:34 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200803181510.m2IFAY8A020500@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, koitsu@FreeBSD.ORG, 5000700@mail.ru In-Reply-To: <20080314120453.GA9740@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-hackers User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:10:35 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: Graphic boot loader? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, koitsu@FreeBSD.ORG, 5000700@mail.ru List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:10:37 -0000 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > Igor_Z wrote: > > Does anybody know something about graphic boot loader? > > I mean how to make this? > > I know that some guy is did it, but how? That is the question! =) > > This is currently "in development", as I understand it. The individual > working on it is Oliver Fromme . I'm sorry for the late reply, I'm currently swamped with work (not FreeBSD-related). It's true I'm working on the graphics support for the boot loader. Development is done in the P4 repository first. As soon as I have something for public test, I will post an RFT to the -current list. I plan to provide a .tar.gz that can simply be dropped in /boot, so everyone can participate in the test easily. It should work with both 8-current and 7-stable. I'm only asking for a little bit of patience, because my free time for working on this is currently very limited. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "What is this talk of 'release'? We do not make software 'releases'. Our software 'escapes', leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in its wake." From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 18:06:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25F81065671; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:06:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CA58FC2D; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:06:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2II6PV6031239; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2II6OMc031236; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:06:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> To: Igor Shmukler References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> Cc: jgordeev@dir.bg, "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re[6]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:06:41 -0000 :Matt, : :We use VMWare Server at work. It does not have the same nice image management interface and/or video capture as commercial counterparts. However, it is is free and testing on it helps us out big time. We never concluded whether it maked sense to pay for VMWare licenses, instead of using free shell scripts legally available for free. : :I have used UML for development in the past. I even used bochs once to debug a boot loader. All nice tools. Beats real hardware for me. : :Xen and KVM are significantly slower than commercial products due to hardware switching. There is a GPLed product that works about as fast as VMWare's BT - VirtualBox by innotek. Sun recently scooped them up. You've tried them all pretty much. VirtualBox is the only one that's actually open-source (well, bochs is too but bochs is a full simulator and unusably slow). VB is very nicely documented too, though I get a headache trying to read all that C++. I know several people using VB on linux host systems. The reason I ask is simply because I am trying to point out *the* major issue for open-source systems when it comes to hardware virtualization, that being the availability of an open-source solution. I have never trusted VMWare to maintain compatibility with any longevity. VB has a better chance and even though it is hard to gauge what Sun will do with it, I'd rather it be Sun then MS. :Don't you use something like VMWare for development and debugging? We use vkernel's for development and debugging. Pretty much everything except hardware device driver development can be done using a vkernel and being able to gdb the kernel binary (gdb, not kgdb) on a whim is rather nice. Kinda hard to beat a 5-second reboot, it makes the engineering test cycle almost as short as hitting ^C and re-running a program. I don't even bother to do a clean halt of the vkernel most of time, I just pop it into it's DDB with ctl-\ and then kill it with ^C, then restart. One interesting side-effect of having a vkernel so easily accessible is that it opens up kernel development to normal programmers. More DragonFly developers have been dipping their fingers into the kernel code in the last 6 months then in all the time before then. That alone justifies the time spent doing it. Except for hardware device driver development, the agonizing engineering cycle for kernel development is completely gone now. -Matt :In production, we don't use any of these products - too slow and too much RAM would be required. : :Sincerely, : :Igor Shmukler, http://www.elusiva.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 19:29:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C3C106564A for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:29:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgordeev@dir.bg) Received: from dir.bg (mail.dir.bg [194.145.63.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6983B8FC2D for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:29:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgordeev@dir.bg) Received: from [78.90.113.14] (account jgordeev@dir.bg [78.90.113.14] verified) by srv.dir.bg (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTPSA id 30028864 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:29:08 +0200 Message-ID: <47E0182F.3060606@dir.bg> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:29:51 +0200 From: Jordan Gordeev User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS i86pc; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20070606 X-Accept-Language: bg, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:29:11 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: >:Matt, >: >:We use VMWare Server at work. It does not have the same nice image management interface and/or video capture as commercial counterparts. However, it is is free and testing on it helps us out big time. We never concluded whether it maked sense to pay for VMWare licenses, instead of using free shell scripts legally available for free. >: >:I have used UML for development in the past. I even used bochs once to debug a boot loader. All nice tools. Beats real hardware for me. >: >:Xen and KVM are significantly slower than commercial products due to hardware switching. There is a GPLed product that works about as fast as VMWare's BT - VirtualBox by innotek. Sun recently scooped them up. > > You've tried them all pretty much. VirtualBox is the only one that's > actually open-source (well, bochs is too but bochs is a full simulator > and unusably slow). VB is very nicely documented too, though I get a > headache trying to read all that C++. I know several people using > VB on linux host systems. > > The reason I ask is simply because I am trying to point out *the* major > issue for open-source systems when it comes to hardware virtualization, > that being the availability of an open-source solution. I have never > trusted VMWare to maintain compatibility with any longevity. VB has > a better chance and even though it is hard to gauge what Sun will do > with it, I'd rather it be Sun then MS. > >:Don't you use something like VMWare for development and debugging? > > We use vkernel's for development and debugging. Pretty much everything > except hardware device driver development can be done using a vkernel > and being able to gdb the kernel binary (gdb, not kgdb) on a whim is > rather nice. Kinda hard to beat a 5-second reboot, it makes the > engineering test cycle almost as short as hitting ^C and re-running a > program. I don't even bother to do a clean halt of the vkernel most of > time, I just pop it into it's DDB with ctl-\ and then kill it with ^C, > then restart. > > One interesting side-effect of having a vkernel so easily accessible > is that it opens up kernel development to normal programmers. More > DragonFly developers have been dipping their fingers into the kernel > code in the last 6 months then in all the time before then. That alone > justifies the time spent doing it. Except for hardware device driver > development, the agonizing engineering cycle for kernel development > is completely gone now. > > -Matt > >:In production, we don't use any of these products - too slow and too much RAM would be required. >: >:Sincerely, >: >:Igor Shmukler, http://www.elusiva.com > > > > I have thought of the vkernel primarily as an aid to kernel development (where performance is not a prime concern), not as a virtualisation solution that will compete with Xen and VMWare. It's difficult to compete with thousands of men-hours paid by corporate funding. So far nobody has expressed interest in vkernels as a tool for kernel development. And I got the general impression that I've proposed something stupid and useless. I can see the value in having a virtualisation solution in the base system that allows one to easily try out kernel development. I know it would have helped _me_ get into the forbidden land. I'm augmenting my project idea by dropping the AMD64 version, and adding "performance work to reduce overhead for disk I/O and networking". I'll also make sure that no kernel function renaming will be needed, through some linking magic. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 20:29:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD92106566B for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:29:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from service2.sh.cvut.cz (service2.sh.cvut.cz [IPv6:2001:718:2:0:217:a4ff:fe3f:b3d4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA038FC22 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:29:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by service2.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC7F13775F; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:29:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from service2.sh.cvut.cz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (service2.sh.cvut.cz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25942-07; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:28:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r4v24.net.upc.cz [84.42.149.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by service2.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876BA137732; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:28:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:28:50 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VsOhY2xhdiBIYWlzbWFu?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hackers@freebsd.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig0D563EAC9E06487E970D9B91" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at service2.sh.cvut.cz X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 tagged_above=-255.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL, CRM114_HAM_00, JR_RCVD_TOO_FEW_HOPS, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:29:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig0D563EAC9E06487E970D9B91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build process does= n't=20 want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get the following: shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9: Malfor= med=20 conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} =3D=3D "no") "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use /usr/src t= ree=20 that does not reside in /usr/src? -- VH --------------enig0D563EAC9E06487E970D9B91 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4CYKoUFWwtEPkHIRCPGqAKCBydA633prNKQOtjGM2wFprftPRgCdG+Hm o3f9zEzRK+pPgZNcfmivUww= =1k5H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig0D563EAC9E06487E970D9B91-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 21:42:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B96106564A for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:42:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walraven@terantula.com) Received: from mx.terantula.com (mx.terantula.com [212.61.39.65]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6814C8FC17 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:42:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walraven@terantula.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.terantula.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810B814288 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:13:00 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at terantula.com Received: from mx.terantula.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (cotton.terantula.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id mI93Yk5HV10O for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:12:58 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx.terantula.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 816961428C; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:12:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:12:58 +0100 From: Marco Walraven To: "hackers@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <20080318211258.GC19374@cotton.terantula.com> References: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Organisation: Terantula Cc: Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:42:18 -0000 On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 09:28:50PM +0100, Vclav Haisman wrote: > Hi, > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build process > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get the > following: > > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9: > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} == "no") > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue > > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use /usr/src > tree that does not reside in /usr/src? You should link your /usr/src to ~/freebsd/src/ and that will make it work. M. -- Terantula - Industrial Strength Open Source phone:+31 64 3232 400 / www: http://www.terantula.com / pgpkey: E7EE7A46 pgp fingerprint: F2EE 122D 964C DE68 7380 6F95 3710 7719 E7EE 7A46 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 21:55:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211291065677 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:55:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from service1.sh.cvut.cz (service1.sh.cvut.cz [147.32.127.214]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BD88FC30 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:55:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by service1.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71C112371A; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:35:14 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at service1.sh.cvut.cz X-Spam-Score: -0.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.087 tagged_above=-255 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.313, CRM114_HAM_00=, JR_RCVD_TOO_FEW_HOPS=0.6] Received: from service1.sh.cvut.cz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (service1.sh.cvut.cz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILnWwWfwcvTT; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:35:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r4v24.net.upc.cz [84.42.149.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by service1.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D3C123717; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:35:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47E0358D.2070800@sh.cvut.cz> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:35:09 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VsOhY2xhdiBIYWlzbWFu?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hackers@freebsd.org" References: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> In-Reply-To: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigA6B98F51E97605231645D445" Cc: Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:55:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigA6B98F51E97605231645D445 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable V=C3=A1clav Haisman wrote, On 18.3.2008 21:28: > Hi, > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build process=20 > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get the=20 > following: >=20 > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9:=20 > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} =3D=3D "no") > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue >=20 > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use /usr/src= =20 > tree that does not reside in /usr/src? Never mind, I have realised that I have copied the wrong tree. I have cop= ed=20 /usr/src for HEAD instead of 6.3 that the box uses. With the 6.3 /usr/src= it=20 works fine. -- VH --------------enigA6B98F51E97605231645D445 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4DWaoUFWwtEPkHIRCKbfAJsFFgNhaLSO6wQ1owZXkzOyT9MpvACbBAjw lzYe6KPhBlWX/UDD8yi093w= =BNTr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigA6B98F51E97605231645D445-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 22:32:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B48106564A for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:32:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fbsd-hackers@mawer.org) Received: from outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au (outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.108]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F748FC1F for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:32:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fbsd-hackers@mawer.org) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnIBAD7Y30fLzq3r/2dsb2JhbAAIqSg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,519,1199631600"; d="scan'208";a="299759680" Received: from unknown (HELO [10.24.1.1]) ([203.206.173.235]) by outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2008 07:02:43 +0900 Message-ID: <47E03BDB.40406@mawer.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:02:03 +1100 From: Antony Mawer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Gordeev References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> <47E0182F.3060606@dir.bg> In-Reply-To: <47E0182F.3060606@dir.bg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:32:37 -0000 Jordan Gordeev wrote: > Matthew Dillon wrote: >> We use vkernel's for development and debugging. >> ... >> One interesting side-effect of having a vkernel so easily accessible >> is that it opens up kernel development to normal programmers. More >> DragonFly developers have been dipping their fingers into the kernel >> code in the last 6 months then in all the time before then. That >> alone >> justifies the time spent doing it. Except for hardware device driver >> development, the agonizing engineering cycle for kernel development >> is completely gone now. >> > I have thought of the vkernel primarily as an aid to kernel development > (where performance is not a prime concern), not as a virtualisation > solution that will compete with Xen and VMWare. It's difficult to > compete with thousands of men-hours paid by corporate funding. > > So far nobody has expressed interest in vkernels as a tool for kernel > development. And I got the general impression that I've proposed > something stupid and useless. I can see this would be advantageous for lowering the barrier for kernel development. The easier this is made, the better chance we have of people having a go at fixing issues in some of the unmaintained bits and pieces out there. I recall trying to take the leap into kernel development some years back to fix some issues in NWFS and SMBFS; even though I was using VMware for testing, I still found the whole compile/install/reboot test cycle a bit tedious. If it were a matter of just Ctrl-C'ing a kernel and then waiting 5 seconds or a new one to boot up, while still having the rest of the machine available "outside" to view/edit source at the same time, it would be much simpler... -- Antony From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 18 23:04:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D4B1065671 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30228FC17 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JbkrM-0003hK-5d for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:44 +0000 Received: from adsl-69-234-231-14.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net ([69.234.231.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:44 +0000 Received: from w41ter by adsl-69-234-231-14.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:44 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: walt Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:05:54 -0700 Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-69-234-231-14.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 3.0a1pre (X11/2008031805) In-Reply-To: <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> Sender: news X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:15:52 +0000 Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:46 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > :Matt, >... > :Don't you use something like VMWare for development and debugging? > We use vkernel's for development and debugging. Pretty much everything > except hardware device driver development can be done using a vkernel... Does that include trying to get rid of the BGL, for example? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 03:35:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B9A106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from f163.mail.ru (f163.mail.ru [194.67.57.38]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EB88FC1F for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shmukler@mail.ru) Received: from mail by f163.mail.ru with local id 1Jbp5P-0009On-00; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:35:31 +0300 Received: from [69.114.219.103] by win.mail.ru with HTTP; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:35:31 +0300 From: Igor Shmukler To: Jordan Gordeev Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: [69.114.219.103] Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:35:31 +0300 References: <47E0182F.3060606@dir.bg> In-Reply-To: <47E0182F.3060606@dir.bg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Igor Shmukler List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:35:33 -0000 > I have thought of the vkernel primarily as an aid to kernel development > (where performance is not a prime concern), not as a virtualisation > solution that will compete with Xen and VMWare. It's difficult to > compete with thousands of men-hours paid by corporate funding. > > So far nobody has expressed interest in vkernels as a tool for kernel > development. And I got the general impression that I've proposed > something stupid and useless. I don't think that what you have proposed is stupid or useless. Sorry if I came across rude. However, if I understand what Matt has done correctly, DragonFly can be used to develop virtualized FreeBSD and the 5 seconds restart would still be there. [Perhaps, some extension might be necessary, but fundamentally it should be possible. Is it not?] If that indeed is the case, I would rather more people worked on the same codebase as opposed to everyone maintaining their own version [one with renaming and the one without]. Would it not be better to extend existing vkernels on DragonFly to do more and support other guests making into a [more] powerful kernel development platform? BSDs have many great "things" to offer, but there is not enough people. I was under the impression even laptops are not fully supported yet. That has been on the TODO for years. If the goal is have the "power to serve" real people, extending the existing jail into a complete container is probably more useful. Does it matter whether a developer is using FreeBSD-over-FreeBSD instead of virtualized FreeBSD over DragonFly? Even easier could be extending FreeBSD to support afterburning and running L4FreeBSD as an L4 server. That is however another dog with different fleas. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 04:51:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209981065670 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:51:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-out-05.forthnet.gr (mx-out.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787448FC1A for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:51:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-av-03.forthnet.gr (mx-av.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.27]) by mx-out-05.forthnet.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2J4aqgx021683; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:36:52 +0200 Received: from MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr (mx-in-02.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.185]) by mx-av-03.forthnet.gr (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2J4aq4f019419; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:36:52 +0200 Received: from kobe.laptop (adsl86-158.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.53.158]) by MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2J4aoMi019334; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:36:51 +0200 Authentication-Results: MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr smtp.mail=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; spf=neutral Authentication-Results: MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr header.from=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; sender-id=neutral Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2J4anHm006140; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:36:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2J4alm4006139; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:36:47 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 06:36:47 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: V??clav Haisman Message-ID: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> References: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> Cc: "hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:51:08 -0000 On 2008-03-18 21:28, V??clav Haisman wrote: > Hi, > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build process > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get the > following: > > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9: > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} == "no") > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue > > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use /usr/src > tree that does not reside in /usr/src? Hmmm, that should work. I regularly build as a non-root user, at `/home/build/src'. The error about ``Malformed conditional'' seems a bit odd too. Are you using /usr/bin/make? What version of FreeBSD is the build host running, and what version of the source tree have you checked out? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 07:27:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37D01065671 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:27:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tataz@tataz.chchile.org) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DB38FC19 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:27:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tataz@tataz.chchile.org) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0009E3F62B6; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:27:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from tatooine.tataz.chchile.org (tataz.chchile.org [82.233.239.98]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B353F626A; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:27:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from obiwan.tataz.chchile.org (unknown [192.168.1.25]) by tatooine.tataz.chchile.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903309BF12; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:26:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obiwan.tataz.chchile.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7F118405B; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:26:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:26:16 +0100 From: Jeremie Le Hen To: Jordan Gordeev Message-ID: <20080319072616.GB20579@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> References: <47DBC800.8030601@dir.bg> <160451205650165@webmail50.yandex.ru> <47DCEBA1.8040503@dir.bg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47DCEBA1.8040503@dir.bg> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15 (2007-04-06) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Andrey V. Elsukov" Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:27:20 -0000 On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:42:57AM +0200, Jordan Gordeev wrote: > > vkernel is similar to User Mode Linux technology. You can boot vkernel as a > > user mode process. I think it will be good to have similar in FreeBSD. > > There are several links: > > http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2007-01/msg00237.html > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/articles/vkernel/vkernel.shtml > > > > > The two links that Andrey posted are very good. I just want to add a short > summary: > A vkernel is a kernel running as a user process under a real kernel. The > vkernel runs in the CPU's priviledge ring 3. It services its child processes > like a normal kernel, but whenever a page table needs to be modified, > context switched, or some other privileged operation needs to be executed, > the vkernel asks the real kernel through a syscall interface. True, but ISTR that contrary to User-Mode Linux, the virtual memory operations are handled by the host kernel, which should increase speed. I have no pointer for this, I've got this information on #dragonflybsd. Regards, -- Jeremie Le Hen < jeremie at le-hen dot org >< ttz at chchile dot org > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 13:45:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BB91065672 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:45:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACF78FC18 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:45:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D763B46C85; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:45:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Murray Stokely In-Reply-To: <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080319134323.U38501@fledge.watson.org> References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:45:21 -0000 On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Murray Stokely wrote: > The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization for the > Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin next week > so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please send them to > soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. A good student > project has a well defined purpose, some key FreeBSD developers that could > be identified as potential mentors, and is feasible for a student to > complete in a few months time. The existing ideas list is available here : > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ > > If you can suggest something (getting specific parts of valgrind working on > FreeBSD?) then please provide information in the form of the other projects > listed on the page as far as difficulty level, requirements, etc.. FYI, to students considering doing projects -- in the last day or two, we've made significant updates to the project ideas list. If you looked a few days ago, please look again. In particular, we've flagged a large number of potential SoC projects that were not there previously. We've also filtered out some that looked too big to be a good 3-month summer project, although you can still find many on the full ideas list. If you're going to work on a proposal for one of these projects, please directly contact the contacts listed for the project to get feedback before submitting your proposal. We will continue to update the project ideas page as new ideas come in, so do keep checking back. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 16:33:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12566106564A for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:33:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1688FC28 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:33:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2JGXu5a088273; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:33:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m2JGXuBt088272; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:33:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:33:56 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200803191633.m2JGXuBt088272@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <47E03BDB.40406@mawer.org> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-hackers User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:33:57 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:33:59 -0000 Hi, Sorry for jumping in here, but I've seen several people talking about that "5 seconds to reboot" thing ... Are you aware that a standard FreeBSD kernel also takes just 5 seconds to reboot within qemu? And that's even when _not_ using the kqemu accelerator module. I've used qemu a lot for debugging my /boot/loader stuff. It takes just about 1 second to get to the loader (i.e. from starting qemu on the command line to the loader menu popping up on the screen). Going single-user takes about 3 seconds. Going multi-user takes a little bit longer, depending on what stuff is enabled via rc.conf. The vkernel feature has certainly benefits, e.g. the fact that you can attach to it with standard gdb and use the familiar debugging facilities, which can attract more developers who wouldn't dare to touch the kernel otherwise. But the "5 seconds to reboot" is not a unique feature; you can have that with qemu as well, and it's there today. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "I have stopped reading Stephen King novels. Now I just read C code instead." -- Richard A. O'Keefe From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 17:07:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA416106564A for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:07:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6DA8FC14 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:07:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 4336 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2008 17:07:09 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Mar 2008 17:07:08 -0000 Message-ID: <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:01:45 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:07:10 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:43:49PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >> I have 4 computers, 1 big FreeBSD-current (4 x86 procs), 2 GentooLinux (1 >> is a dial AMD Opteron, the other a dual older x86), and 1 MacOSX (dual >> PPC). I was thinking about looking for two items, I'm not sure if I want >> one or both of them: either some software to let me merely remotely manage >> them (public software, mind) or, even better, something to get these >> disparate hardwares to be able to work together, and (as much as possible) >> to be able to share work. >> >> What might be the best, in terms of ability, and especially the ability to >> make these work together? If they're not a FreeBSD port, as long as >> they're reasonably stable, I don't mind porting things, but it needs to be >> stable on all those CPUs. Could you reo\commend me something? I'll go >> chase each one down, I won't jump on you if you're wrong, gimme your >> guesses, ok? > > I don't understand your question. It's almost like you're asking two > questions: > > 1) How can I manage all of these machines remotely? (E.g. ssh, VNC, > serial console, KVM, etc.) > > 2) How can I harness the power of all of these machines simultaneously? > (e.g. some form of CPU clustering) > > Can you elaborate? > Sure. I suppose what was really driving me was a little daydreaming that I'd been having, about the direction of computing, in the coming few years. Not 20 years ahead, but more likely 2 or 4 years ahead. I was thinking that the present wave towards constructing single-ships with multiple cores on them could only grow in scale, so the real question would be, just how large could "n" get? Then, IF that were true, it begs another question ... right now, we rely upon our fine smp code to do a fairly good job of both managing the administration of those cores, AND the dispatching of jobs amongst them. By now, you've probably smelled the rat: I didn't allow for the difference in hardware that I'd painted: 2 x86 cores, 6 x86_64 cores, and 2 PPC cores. Well, I had to throw all that in if I were to reach for the sky, but I was asking for all that I could possibly get, but not, honestly, unwilling to consider something maybe a bit less than that, if it were easier to consider. What is most important in my considerations are, how might it to possible to stretch our present smp software to be able to extend the management domains to cover multiple computers? Some sort of a bridge here, because there is no software today (that I'm awarae of, and that sure leaves a huge set of holes) that lets you manage the cores as separate computers) so that maybe today I might be able to have an 8 or 10 core system, and maybe tomorrow look at the economic and software possibility of having a 256 core system. I figure that there would need to be some tight reins on latency, and you would want some BIGTIME comm links, I dunno, maybe not be able to use even Gigabit ethernet, maybe needing some sort of scsi bus linkage, something on that scale? Or, is Fiber getting to that range yet? Anyhow, is it even remotely posible for us to be able to strech our present SMP software (even with it's limitation on word size to limit the range to 32 processors) to be able to jump across machines? That would be one hell of a huge thing to consider, now wouldn't it? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4Ub5z62J6PPcoOkRAl9qAJ0fROAdNq/QFFR+7cYix0BvwjGZhQCeIsUH fAWfi7eKgNogAF6uaKpgMoI= =ZIcm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 17:12:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05CF8106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:12:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC32E8FC14 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:12:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 582 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2008 17:12:41 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Mar 2008 17:12:41 -0000 Message-ID: <47E14847.7050309@chuckr.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:07:19 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318085343.eed4474c.wmoran@collaborativefusion.com> In-Reply-To: <20080318085343.eed4474c.wmoran@collaborativefusion.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:12:42 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bill Moran wrote: > In response to Chuck Robey : > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> I have 4 computers, 1 big FreeBSD-current (4 x86 procs), 2 GentooLinux (1 >> is a dial AMD Opteron, the other a dual older x86), and 1 MacOSX (dual >> PPC). I was thinking about looking for two items, I'm not sure if I want >> one or both of them: either some software to let me merely remotely manage >> them (public software, mind) or, even better, something to get these >> disparate hardwares to be able to work together, and (as much as possible) >> to be able to share work. >> >> What might be the best, in terms of ability, and especially the ability to >> make these work together? If they're not a FreeBSD port, as long as >> they're reasonably stable, I don't mind porting things, but it needs to be >> stable on all those CPUs. Could you reo\commend me something? I'll go >> chase each one down, I won't jump on you if you're wrong, gimme your >> guesses, ok? > > Your question is extraordinarily vague. I manage multiple systems > remotely using ssh, so I'm not sure what additional "stuff" you want. I left it vague on purpose, because I know I am speaking to a crowd thjat certainly includes folks who know more on the subject than i do, and I was curious as to what woud pop up. I filled in some more of the puzzle in a separate email i just sent (so i won't duplicate that all here), but I have already begun to learn, because, no, I didn't know off all these links. I was thinking (very, very quickly) of putting our smp and the Ganglia thing into a mixer, 2 minutes at high speed, and see what came out? Anyhow, thanks for the links, please don't hesitate to give me more on this subject (this fuzzy cloud?) > > However, here are some links that may provide some help. All of these > are FreeBSD ports, and I'm fairly sure they'll work on Gentoo and > OSX as well: > http://www.webmin.com/ > http://www.cfengine.org/ > http://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4UhHz62J6PPcoOkRAvwFAJ9Y3Q1osqjUJVrQrB89Ya9RczLIowCbBC8V xqihMxtA9lwvt2TEPl8xBN0= =6QlR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 17:22:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC064106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:22:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28BA8FC30 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:22:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C5E821CC060; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:22:13 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:22:14 -0000 On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 01:01:45PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > What is most important in my considerations are, how might it to possible > to stretch our present smp software to be able to extend the management > domains to cover multiple computers? Some sort of a bridge here, because > there is no software today (that I'm awarae of, and that sure leaves a huge > set of holes) that lets you manage the cores as separate computers) so that > maybe today I might be able to have an 8 or 10 core system, and maybe > tomorrow look at the economic and software possibility of having a 256 core > system. I figure that there would need to be some tight reins on latency, > and you would want some BIGTIME comm links, I dunno, maybe not be able to > use even Gigabit ethernet, maybe needing some sort of scsi bus linkage, > something on that scale? Or, is Fiber getting to that range yet? > > Anyhow, is it even remotely posible for us to be able to strech our present > SMP software (even with it's limitation on word size to limit the range to > 32 processors) to be able to jump across machines? That would be one hell > of a huge thing to consider, now wouldn't it? Ahh, you're talking about parallel computing, "clustering", or "grid computing". The Linux folks often refer to an implementation called Beowulf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_%28computing%29 I was also able to find these, more specific to the BSDs: http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/myths.html#clustering http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-cluster/2006-June/000292.html http://people.freebsd.org/~brooks/papers/bsdcon2003/fbsdcluster/ -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 18:09:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25ADD1065679 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076808FC2D for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:09:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 5616 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2008 18:09:15 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Mar 2008 18:09:15 -0000 Message-ID: <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:03:54 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:09:16 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 01:01:45PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >> What is most important in my considerations are, how might it to possible >> to stretch our present smp software to be able to extend the management >> domains to cover multiple computers? Some sort of a bridge here, because >> there is no software today (that I'm awarae of, and that sure leaves a huge >> set of holes) that lets you manage the cores as separate computers) so that >> maybe today I might be able to have an 8 or 10 core system, and maybe >> tomorrow look at the economic and software possibility of having a 256 core >> system. I figure that there would need to be some tight reins on latency, >> and you would want some BIGTIME comm links, I dunno, maybe not be able to >> use even Gigabit ethernet, maybe needing some sort of scsi bus linkage, >> something on that scale? Or, is Fiber getting to that range yet? >> >> Anyhow, is it even remotely posible for us to be able to strech our present >> SMP software (even with it's limitation on word size to limit the range to >> 32 processors) to be able to jump across machines? That would be one hell >> of a huge thing to consider, now wouldn't it? > > Ahh, you're talking about parallel computing, "clustering", or "grid > computing". The Linux folks often refer to an implementation called > Beowulf: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_%28computing%29 > > I was also able to find these, more specific to the BSDs: > > http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/myths.html#clustering > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-cluster/2006-June/000292.html > http://people.freebsd.org/~brooks/papers/bsdcon2003/fbsdcluster/ > Well, I am, and I'm not, if you could answer me one quiestion, then I would probably know for sure. What is the difference between our SMP and the general idea of clustering, as typified by Beowulf? I was under the impression I was talking about seeing the possibility of moving the two closer together, but maybe I'm confused in the meanings? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4VWKz62J6PPcoOkRAtxnAJoDKlh4EgbL17TLUuH3gEDCwt4u9ACePFGh dWFantC9QyS5g9FJh80wXNI= =viHY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 18:42:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6624106566C for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:42:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DB58FC21 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:42:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A4A821CC06A; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:42:44 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:42:45 -0000 On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:03:54PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > Well, I am, and I'm not, if you could answer me one quiestion, then I would > probably know for sure. What is the difference between our SMP and the > general idea of clustering, as typified by Beowulf? I was under the > impression I was talking about seeing the possibility of moving the two > closer together, but maybe I'm confused in the meanings? SMP as an implementation is mainly intended for single systems with multiple processors (e.g. multiple physical CPUs, or multiple cores; same thing). It distributes kernel operations (kernel threads) across those processors, rather than only utilising a single processor. Clustering allows for the distribution of a task (a compile using gcc, running of certain disk I/O tasks, running multiple userland (or I suppose kernel, if the kernel had clustering support) threads) across multiple physical computers on a local network. The best example I have for real-world clustering is rendering (mostly 3D, but you can "render" anything; I'm referring to 3D in this case). A person doing modelling creates a model scene using 3D objects, applies textures to it, lighting, raytracing aspects, vertex/bones animation, and anything else -- all using their single workstation. Then the person wants to see what it all looks like -- either as a still frame (JPEG/PNG/TIFF), or as a rendered animation (AVI/MPG/MJPEG). Without any form of clustering, the workstation has to do all of the processing/rendering work by its lonesome self. This can take a very, very long time -- modellers aren't going to wait 2 hours for their work to render, only to find they messed up some bones vertexes half way into the animation. With clustering, the workstation has the capability to send the rendering request out onto the network to a series of what're called "slaves" (other computers set up to handle such requests). The workstation says "I want this rendered. I want all of you to do it". Let's say there's 200 machines in the cluster as slaves, and let's say all 200 of those machines are dual-core (so 400 CPUs total). You then have 400 CPUs rendering your animation, versus just 2 on the workstation. The same concept can apply to compiling (gcc saying "I want this C file compiled" or whatever), or any other "distributed computing" computational desired. It all depends on if the software you want to support clustering can do it. Different clustering softwares run at different levels; some might act as "virtual environments", thus underlying software may not need to know about clustering (e.g. it "just works"); others might require each program to be fully cluster-aware. Make sense? :-) -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 19:15:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E1E1065670 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:15:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D288FC23 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:15:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 18864 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2008 19:15:33 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Mar 2008 19:15:33 -0000 Message-ID: <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:10:12 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:15:34 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:03:54PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >> Well, I am, and I'm not, if you could answer me one quiestion, then I would >> probably know for sure. What is the difference between our SMP and the >> general idea of clustering, as typified by Beowulf? I was under the >> impression I was talking about seeing the possibility of moving the two >> closer together, but maybe I'm confused in the meanings? > > SMP as an implementation is mainly intended for single systems with > multiple processors (e.g. multiple physical CPUs, or multiple cores; > same thing). It distributes kernel operations (kernel threads) across > those processors, rather than only utilising a single processor. > > Clustering allows for the distribution of a task (a compile using gcc, > running of certain disk I/O tasks, running multiple userland (or I > suppose kernel, if the kernel had clustering support) threads) across > multiple physical computers on a local network. > > The best example I have for real-world clustering is rendering (mostly > 3D, but you can "render" anything; I'm referring to 3D in this case). > > A person doing modelling creates a model scene using 3D objects, applies > textures to it, lighting, raytracing aspects, vertex/bones animation, > and anything else -- all using their single workstation. Then the > person wants to see what it all looks like -- either as a still frame > (JPEG/PNG/TIFF), or as a rendered animation (AVI/MPG/MJPEG). > > Without any form of clustering, the workstation has to do all of the > processing/rendering work by its lonesome self. This can take a very, > very long time -- modellers aren't going to wait 2 hours for their work > to render, only to find they messed up some bones vertexes half way into > the animation. > > With clustering, the workstation has the capability to send the > rendering request out onto the network to a series of what're called > "slaves" (other computers set up to handle such requests). The > workstation says "I want this rendered. I want all of you to do it". > Let's say there's 200 machines in the cluster as slaves, and let's say > all 200 of those machines are dual-core (so 400 CPUs total). You then > have 400 CPUs rendering your animation, versus just 2 on the > workstation. > > The same concept can apply to compiling (gcc saying "I want this C file > compiled" or whatever), or any other "distributed computing" > computational desired. It all depends on if the software you want to > support clustering can do it. > > Different clustering softwares run at different levels; some might act > as "virtual environments", thus underlying software may not need to know > about clustering (e.g. it "just works"); others might require each > program to be fully cluster-aware. > > Make sense? :-) Not completely yet (I tend to be stubborn, if I carry this too far, tell me in private mail and I will politely drop it). Your use cases show me the differences in size, and *because* of the size, the differences in how you'd use them, and that part I did already know. I'm perfectly well aware of the current differences in size, but what I'm after is what are the real differences, ignoring size, in what they actually accomplish, and how they go about doing it. I'm thinking of the possibility of perhaps finding it it might be possible to find some way to extend the work domain of an smp system to stretch across machine lines, to jump across motherboards. Maybe not to be global (huge latencies scare me away), but what about just going 3 feet, on a very high speed bus, like maybe a private pci bus? Not what is, what could be? And, I have experienced just as many looniees as you have, who ask for some gigantic task, then sit back and want to take the credit and act like a cheerleader, figuring they really got the thing going. Well, I DON'T really want the help, I have in mind a project for me and a friend, with small smallish machine resources, maybe a bunch of small ARM boards. I wouldn't turn down help, but I'm not really proselytizing. Something small, but with a bunch of bandwidth. So, in that case, what really are the differences between smp and clustering, besides the raw current size of the implementation? Are there huge basic differences between the clustering concept and by smp's actual tasks? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4WUUz62J6PPcoOkRAoJNAJ4o4jpDeVlLG2X6Sk1ccggORyO2GwCgku/s U3w/oylwEgt8CufFZwccfw4= =zbNA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 20:03:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784891065670 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:03:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outK.internet-mail-service.net (outK.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.234]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5859B8FC12 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:03:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:04:32 -0700 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E4F2D6180; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47E16A0C.1010500@elischer.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:31:24 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuck Robey References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> In-Reply-To: <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers , Jeremy Chadwick Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:03:59 -0000 Chuck Robey wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Jeremy Chadwick wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:03:54PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >>> Well, I am, and I'm not, if you could answer me one quiestion, then I would >>> probably know for sure. What is the difference between our SMP and the >>> general idea of clustering, as typified by Beowulf? I was under the >>> impression I was talking about seeing the possibility of moving the two >>> closer together, but maybe I'm confused in the meanings? >> SMP as an implementation is mainly intended for single systems with >> multiple processors (e.g. multiple physical CPUs, or multiple cores; >> same thing). It distributes kernel operations (kernel threads) across >> those processors, rather than only utilising a single processor. >> >> Clustering allows for the distribution of a task (a compile using gcc, >> running of certain disk I/O tasks, running multiple userland (or I >> suppose kernel, if the kernel had clustering support) threads) across >> multiple physical computers on a local network. >> >> The best example I have for real-world clustering is rendering (mostly >> 3D, but you can "render" anything; I'm referring to 3D in this case). >> >> A person doing modelling creates a model scene using 3D objects, applies >> textures to it, lighting, raytracing aspects, vertex/bones animation, >> and anything else -- all using their single workstation. Then the >> person wants to see what it all looks like -- either as a still frame >> (JPEG/PNG/TIFF), or as a rendered animation (AVI/MPG/MJPEG). >> >> Without any form of clustering, the workstation has to do all of the >> processing/rendering work by its lonesome self. This can take a very, >> very long time -- modellers aren't going to wait 2 hours for their work >> to render, only to find they messed up some bones vertexes half way into >> the animation. >> >> With clustering, the workstation has the capability to send the >> rendering request out onto the network to a series of what're called >> "slaves" (other computers set up to handle such requests). The >> workstation says "I want this rendered. I want all of you to do it". >> Let's say there's 200 machines in the cluster as slaves, and let's say >> all 200 of those machines are dual-core (so 400 CPUs total). You then >> have 400 CPUs rendering your animation, versus just 2 on the >> workstation. >> >> The same concept can apply to compiling (gcc saying "I want this C file >> compiled" or whatever), or any other "distributed computing" >> computational desired. It all depends on if the software you want to >> support clustering can do it. >> >> Different clustering softwares run at different levels; some might act >> as "virtual environments", thus underlying software may not need to know >> about clustering (e.g. it "just works"); others might require each >> program to be fully cluster-aware. >> >> Make sense? :-) > > Not completely yet (I tend to be stubborn, if I carry this too far, tell me > in private mail and I will politely drop it). Your use cases show me the > differences in size, and *because* of the size, the differences in how > you'd use them, and that part I did already know. I'm perfectly well aware > of the current differences in size, but what I'm after is what are the real > differences, ignoring size, in what they actually accomplish, and how they > go about doing it. I'm thinking of the possibility of perhaps finding it > it might be possible to find some way to extend the work domain of an smp > system to stretch across machine lines, to jump across motherboards. Maybe > not to be global (huge latencies scare me away), but what about just going > 3 feet, on a very high speed bus, like maybe a private pci bus? Not what > is, what could be? > > And, I have experienced just as many looniees as you have, who ask for some > gigantic task, then sit back and want to take the credit and act like a > cheerleader, figuring they really got the thing going. Well, I DON'T > really want the help, I have in mind a project for me and a friend, with > small smallish machine resources, maybe a bunch of small ARM boards. I > wouldn't turn down help, but I'm not really proselytizing. Something > small, but with a bunch of bandwidth. So, in that case, what really are > the differences between smp and clustering, besides the raw current size of > the implementation? Are there huge basic differences between the > clustering concept and by smp's actual tasks? The difference is in the "S" in SMP. In SMP all memory (and other resources) is equally available to all processors and threads and processes can migrate around without special regard for location. File descriptors and data are equally available for all threadds of a process independenly of which CPU thye are on.. etc. etc. In clustering, you basically have to have an extra layer of indirectinb between the working processor and teh resources. Some resources are local. Some are not. threads running in a process can only do so when they have access to all the resources of the process. processes MAY be able to migrate, but it is a complex operation that involves process snapshotting and transportation of the snapshot etc. Matt in DragonFly is trying to make his system suitable for clustering. This is not hte same as making it suitable for SMP though there are of course some common requirements. He's doing SMP as well though. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFH4WUUz62J6PPcoOkRAoJNAJ4o4jpDeVlLG2X6Sk1ccggORyO2GwCgku/s > U3w/oylwEgt8CufFZwccfw4= > =zbNA > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 20:48:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B83106567D for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:48:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C208FC26 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:48:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from c83-253-25-183.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.25.183]:49994 helo=falcon.midgard.homeip.net) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Jc4yI-0002Uu-4o for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:33:15 +0100 Received: (qmail 93953 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2008 21:33:11 +0100 Received: from owl.midgard.homeip.net (10.1.5.7) by falcon.midgard.homeip.net with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2008 21:33:11 +0100 Received: (qmail 71354 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Mar 2008 21:33:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:33:11 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080319203311.GA71206@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Chuck Robey , Jeremy Chadwick , FreeBSD-Hackers References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Originating-IP: 83.253.25.183 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1Jc4yI-0002Uu-4o. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1Jc4yI-0002Uu-4o 98519d252e1915d7637ad8c0580b7360 Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers , Jeremy Chadwick Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:48:48 -0000 On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:03:54PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 01:01:45PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > >> What is most important in my considerations are, how might it to possible > >> to stretch our present smp software to be able to extend the management > >> domains to cover multiple computers? Some sort of a bridge here, because > >> there is no software today (that I'm awarae of, and that sure leaves a huge > >> set of holes) that lets you manage the cores as separate computers) so that > >> maybe today I might be able to have an 8 or 10 core system, and maybe > >> tomorrow look at the economic and software possibility of having a 256 core > >> system. I figure that there would need to be some tight reins on latency, > >> and you would want some BIGTIME comm links, I dunno, maybe not be able to > >> use even Gigabit ethernet, maybe needing some sort of scsi bus linkage, > >> something on that scale? Or, is Fiber getting to that range yet? > >> > >> Anyhow, is it even remotely posible for us to be able to strech our present > >> SMP software (even with it's limitation on word size to limit the range to > >> 32 processors) to be able to jump across machines? That would be one hell > >> of a huge thing to consider, now wouldn't it? > > > > Ahh, you're talking about parallel computing, "clustering", or "grid > > computing". The Linux folks often refer to an implementation called > > Beowulf: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_%28computing%29 > > > > I was also able to find these, more specific to the BSDs: > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/myths.html#clustering > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-cluster/2006-June/000292.html > > http://people.freebsd.org/~brooks/papers/bsdcon2003/fbsdcluster/ > > > > Well, I am, and I'm not, if you could answer me one quiestion, then I would > probably know for sure. What is the difference between our SMP and the > general idea of clustering, as typified by Beowulf? I was under the > impression I was talking about seeing the possibility of moving the two > closer together, but maybe I'm confused in the meanings? The short version is that software written for SMP and for clusters make very different assumptions on what operations are available and the relative costs between them. Software written for one of them will typically either not run at all, or run very inefficiently on the other. Longer version: SMP (Symmetric Multi Processing) refers to a situation where all the CPUs involved are 'equal' and all use the same shared physical memory. In an SMP system it does not really matter which CPU you run a program on, since they are all equal and all have the same access to memory. One important feature of such a system is that when one CPU writes to memory all the others can see that write. A close relative of SMP is NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access), with the most popular variant being ccNUMA (cache coherent NUMA). Here all CPUs still share the memory, but different parts of memory can be differently expensive to access depending on which CPU is involved. (For example: CPU 1 might have fast access to memory area A, and slow access to memory area B, while CPU 2 have fast access to B, and slow access to A.) (Many multi-CPU machines in use today are actually ccNUMA even if they are often called SMP. Software written for SMP will typically run unmodified on an ccNUMA system, although perhaps with somewhat suboptimal performance.) In a cluster on the other hand the CPUs do not share physical memory. They cannot automatically see each others memory operations. Any communication between the CPUs must take place over the network (which is much slower than the internal buses inside a computer.) So in an SMP system communication between CPUs is fast, switching which CPU is running a given program is a cheap and simple operation, and much of the work in synchronizing the CPUs is taken care of automatically by the hardware. In a cluster communication between nodes is expensive, transferring a program from one CPU to another is slow and complicated, and one needs to do extra work to keep each CPU aware of what the others are doing. In a clustered system one usually also has to take care of the case that one node crashes or the network connection to it is broken. In typical SMP systems one just ignores the possibility of one CPU crashing. (The exception being some mainframe systems with high redundancy where one can replace almost all components (including CPUs) while the machine is running. There is a reason why these cost lots and lots of money.) A system that is written to work in a clustered environment can fairly easily be moved to run on an SMP machine, but it will do a lot of work that is not necessary under SMP and thus not make very good use of the hardware. Moving from SMP to cluster is more difficult. One can emulate the missing hardware support in software, but this has a very high overhead. Or one can rewrite the software completely, which is a lot of work. FreeBSD is written for SMP systems and makes many assumptions about the capabilities of the underlying hardware. Modifying FreeBSD to run efficiently and transparently on top of a clustered system would be a *huge* undertaking. -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 21:05:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7F610656C1 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:05:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scode@hyperion.scode.org) Received: from hyperion.scode.org (hyperion.scode.org [85.17.42.115]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4E18FC16 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:05:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scode@hyperion.scode.org) Received: by hyperion.scode.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4C1A02394A6; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:14:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:14:53 +0100 From: Peter Schuller To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080318211453.GA37126@hyperion.scode.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Asynchronous syscalls for massive concurrency X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:05:30 -0000 --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Reading the recent thread on -current regarding dropping KSE and the evolution of application design with respect to concurrency, prompted me to want to ask what people think regarding the desirability and/or feasability of making FreeBSD support an asynchronous interface to *all* system calls. In particular, I would love to hear from experienced kernel developers whether this is a total pipe dream in terms of practically implementing it semi-efficiently with a reasonable amount of work, in a real-world operating system like FreeBSD. It is something that I have secretly coveting for for a long time (generally, not for FreeBSD specifically). Let me explain my motivation. Some will probably disagree, others will think I am pointing out the obvious, but I still want to summarize it here in the hopes of triggering a fruitful and/or interesting discussion. If this has been discussed, feel free to point me in the right direction. Apologies if this reads like a rant (will se if anyone bothers to read it to begin with ;). State machines vs. concurrency in application design: It is my belief that, in general, from a design perspective there is a desire to model a fundamentally concurrent process in the form of concurrency, rather than a state machine. It is my belief that, ignoring efficiency, concurrency tends to lead to cleaner, more modularized and more easily maintainable code. "Concurrency" above does not necessarily refer to operating system threads using the pthread model. I will mention implementation issues later on. Right now, I am arguing strictly from the design perspective of how I want to structure my code. In the simplest cases, a state machine will be pretty small and easy to understand (let's say the state machine parsing simple line-based messages in an IRC server). As the problem grows more complex, you will invariable wish to modularize the code; introduce abstractions; moving details away from the core loop. This can be done to any extent; you might generalize it a bit and be fairly satisfied. Until you want to introduce even more features and you feel the need to further generalize. You end up reaching a point where the framework for writing a modularized state machine is approaching the featurefullness of actual concurrency. If your language supports continuations, you may very well simply implement the state machine in terms of these. In this case, you pretty much have userland co-operative threading. That is one end of the extreme; the other end is the simple core state machine loop without modularizations. In between, you have various levels of generality in explicit state management. In this way, I view "true" concurrency modelling as essentially being the perfect state machine, completely hidden from application code. From this perspective, manually writing explicit state management is essentially a less powerful and less expressive way of achieving the same goal, that I would only resort to if "true" concurrency is not possible or practical. I will readily admit that I have not written a lot of state machine style code, exactly because of my view expressed above. I have however written, and write on a daily basis, a pretty considerable amount of multi-threaded (or otherwise concurrent) code. Some of it could reasonable be re-done in the form of a state machine, while in other cases the complexity would be absolutely tremendous without using some form of state management framework that at least approaches true concurrency (and even then complexity would be considerably higher than now). This is my reason for fundamentally preferring a concurrent approach, and would love for it to be supported by the language/environment being used, to an extent such that there is no need to fall back to explicit state management. Enabling massive concurrency by asynchronous syscalls: Support for asynchronous syscalls, I believe, would help *a lot* in realizing practical massive concurrency in a variety of environments, =66rom C/C++ to more higher level languages. C/C++ and similar w/ pthread concurrency model: One can already come *fairly* far by writing code in a stack conscious manner. Most of the C/C++ I do is written with this in mind, and having tens of thousands of threads or more is not a problem at all, because the stack size can be very very conservative. This is not to say that it is necessarily the most efficient approach (context switching overhead, cache localitly, etc), but it does get you pretty far - particularly when the application is extremely concurrent in relation to the actual amount of work done in total (that is, when your problem is not CPU efficiency, but the ability to e.g. handle 30 000 clients, most of which are mostly idle). That said, there are still issues. Regardless of whether explicit memory management is used, or garbage collection, there is a desire to reduce contention. Many mallocs have thread-local pools (including jemalloc). But of course, if you want to be running with a 32 kbyte stack size, suddenly you do not have a lot of room for thread-local resources of that type. Having asynchronous syscalls, in combination with sufficient support from the runtime/threading libraries, would allow for these resources to scale with the number of *cores*, rather than the number of threads. Even if the nature of the C language more or less requires, as far as I can tell, that you retain a per-thread native stack, it would be a huge plus in several situations to be able to scale based on memory availability relative to stack size, without worrying about secondary affects like higher contention in malloc. Higher level languages with native threads (e.g. Python, Ruby 1.9, some Common Lisps): A similar situation exists here as with C/C++. Higher level languages without native threads (Ruby 1.8, erlang, chicken, etc): This is my primary motivation. Several languages attempt to get away with using non-native threads, and end up being pretty scalable in terms of concurrency - but at a cost. Only certain operations are possible to do in a non-blocking fashion (basically, I/O). In the case of e.g. Ruby and Chicken, the problem is simply lived with, and other syscalls block the interpreter, causing the language to be much less usable than it otherwise would have been, in a variety of "production" situations. In the case of erlang, this problem is dealt with by requiring blocking operations to be performed in a separate process, with pretty expensive communication going on between those processes and the core virtual machine. The fact that you can't just randomly do your syscall, or blocking library call, right off the bat means the threshold, in terms of effort, in interfacing with native non-erlang code is pretty high. (Of course in erlang a major purpose is to have this separation on purpose, to ensure that the core virtual machine is not tained by broken native code. I am ignoring that here.)=20 The reason why your call blocks the entire {Ruby,Chicken,...} interpreter is not that somebody *wants* this to happen, but because of the effort required to fix this problem - especially if you are not willing to take the massive performance hit of requireing native threads. Ruby 1.9 will have native threading, but at a certain cost in terms of concurrency overhead, but also in terms of language power (continuations are no longer feasable to support). Are asynchronous system calls just a bad idea to begin with? Am I failing to identify major problems with this approach?[1] Is it just not feasable at the kernel implementation level? How much of this overlaps with KSE? Would it be correct to say that the primary complexity in implementing this in the kernel, stems from exactly the problem I claim with application development - a need for additional reliance on explicit state management, in the blocking cases where, right now, a lot is kept implicit in the process' kernel stack? If so I guess one could look at it as moving that problem from the applications, to the kernel (and/or the runtime library). [1] One problem I can think of is that one will loose concurrency in memory access, so that the impact of high-latency paging (to/from disk) will likely be a lot higher, since your other threads (in the same native thread/process) will not be able to execute during said paging. A single page-in (and to a lesser extent page-out) effectively blocks any number of "threads". --=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfgMMwACgkQDNor2+l1i307AgCeNfRhz41hFV8j6qCFQaI3EUoX BJsAnioU0VOarlWNjN5+JiVOuLcDW5cT =8dLq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 21:12:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7A41065680 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:12:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEAC8FC15 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:12:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from vampire.homelinux.org (dslb-088-066-042-203.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.66.42.203]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu8) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML31I-1Jc5aY1LOv-0003eC; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:12:46 +0100 Received: (qmail 31732 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2008 21:12:02 -0000 Received: from myhost.laiers.local (192.168.4.151) by mx.laiers.local with SMTP; 19 Mar 2008 21:12:02 -0000 From: Max Laier Organization: FreeBSD To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:11:32 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> In-Reply-To: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200803192211.32728.max@love2party.net> X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/GLrrPgrrZrS+rswXTyFB2tlkW8ycRjzbN+/e L+BGDB7EV29kuj6I6zg2V8Xsanv504hGpwmvPvW/sSKuTy4C1g AVYz1HbVWYNMPVX3L1qMw== Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , V??clav Haisman Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:12:48 -0000 On Wednesday 19 March 2008 05:36:47 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2008-03-18 21:28, V??clav Haisman wrote: > > Hi, > > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build process > > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get the > > following: > > > > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make > > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9: > > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} == "no") > > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif > > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue Looks like a problem with /usr/share/mk being out of date (not sure this should be an issue, though). A simple fix should be to add "-m `pwd`/share/mk" to make ... or "-m `pwd`/../../share/mk" in your example above. The buildworld target seems to pick this automatically. > > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use > > /usr/src tree that does not reside in /usr/src? > > Hmmm, that should work. I regularly build as a non-root user, at > `/home/build/src'. > > The error about ``Malformed conditional'' seems a bit odd too. Are you > using /usr/bin/make? What version of FreeBSD is the build host > running, and what version of the source tree have you checked out? -- /"\ Best regards, | mlaier@freebsd.org \ / Max Laier | ICQ #67774661 X http://pf4freebsd.love2party.net/ | mlaier@EFnet / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 21:17:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F5D106566B; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:17:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAD18FC2F; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:17:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47E182E1.1060102@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:17:21 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> <20080319134323.U38501@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080319134323.U38501@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Murray Stokely Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:17:20 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Murray Stokely wrote: > >> The FreeBSD Project was again accepted as a mentoring organization for >> the Google Summer of Code. The student application period will begin >> next week so if you have any ideas for great student projects, please >> send them to soc-admins@FreeBSD.org or post them here for discussion. >> A good student project has a well defined purpose, some key FreeBSD >> developers that could be identified as potential mentors, and is >> feasible for a student to complete in a few months time. The existing >> ideas list is available here : >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ >> >> If you can suggest something (getting specific parts of valgrind >> working on FreeBSD?) then please provide information in the form of >> the other projects listed on the page as far as difficulty level, >> requirements, etc.. > > FYI, to students considering doing projects -- in the last day or two, > we've made significant updates to the project ideas list. If you looked > a few days ago, please look again. In particular, we've flagged a large > number of potential SoC projects that were not there previously. We've > also filtered out some that looked too big to be a good 3-month summer > project, although you can still find many on the full ideas list. If > you're going to work on a proposal for one of these projects, please > directly contact the contacts listed for the project to get feedback > before submitting your proposal. We will continue to update the project > ideas page as new ideas come in, so do keep checking back. Also, keep in mind that you can submit more than one application if there are multiple projects you find interesting (or we add some later). You can also come up with your own project ideas if we have missed one :) Kris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 21:21:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DBC106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:21:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outQ.internet-mail-service.net (outQ.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.240]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600478FC20 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:21:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:21:25 -0700 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D083C2D6017; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47E183CC.6050309@elischer.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:21:16 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Schuller References: <20080318211453.GA37126@hyperion.scode.org> In-Reply-To: <20080318211453.GA37126@hyperion.scode.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Asynchronous syscalls for massive concurrency X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:21:18 -0000 Peter Schuller wrote: > Hello, > > Reading the recent thread on -current regarding dropping KSE and the > evolution of application design with respect to concurrency, prompted > me to want to ask what people think regarding the desirability and/or > feasability of making FreeBSD support an asynchronous interface to > *all* system calls. In particular, I would love to hear from > experienced kernel developers whether this is a total pipe dream in > terms of practically implementing it semi-efficiently with a > reasonable amount of work, in a real-world operating system like > FreeBSD. > > It is something that I have secretly coveting for for a long time > (generally, not for FreeBSD specifically). Let me explain my > motivation. Some will probably disagree, others will think I am > pointing out the obvious, but I still want to summarize it here in the > hopes of triggering a fruitful and/or interesting discussion. If this > has been discussed, feel free to point me in the right direction. > > Apologies if this reads like a rant (will se if anyone bothers to read > it to begin with ;). > > State machines vs. concurrency in application design: > > It is my belief that, in general, from a design perspective there is a > desire to model a fundamentally concurrent process in the form of > concurrency, rather than a state machine. It is my belief that, > ignoring efficiency, concurrency tends to lead to cleaner, more > modularized and more easily maintainable code. > > "Concurrency" above does not necessarily refer to operating system > threads using the pthread model. I will mention implementation issues > later on. Right now, I am arguing strictly from the design perspective > of how I want to structure my code. > > In the simplest cases, a state machine will be pretty small and easy > to understand (let's say the state machine parsing simple line-based > messages in an IRC server). As the problem grows more complex, you > will invariable wish to modularize the code; introduce abstractions; > moving details away from the core loop. > > This can be done to any extent; you might generalize it a bit and be > fairly satisfied. Until you want to introduce even more features and > you feel the need to further generalize. You end up reaching a point > where the framework for writing a modularized state machine is > approaching the featurefullness of actual concurrency. If your > language supports continuations, you may very well simply implement > the state machine in terms of these. In this case, you pretty much > have userland co-operative threading. That is one end of the extreme; > the other end is the simple core state machine loop without > modularizations. In between, you have various levels of generality in > explicit state management. > > In this way, I view "true" concurrency modelling as essentially being > the perfect state machine, completely hidden from application > code. From this perspective, manually writing explicit state > management is essentially a less powerful and less expressive way of > achieving the same goal, that I would only resort to if "true" > concurrency is not possible or practical. > > I will readily admit that I have not written a lot of state machine > style code, exactly because of my view expressed above. I have however > written, and write on a daily basis, a pretty considerable amount of > multi-threaded (or otherwise concurrent) code. Some of it could > reasonable be re-done in the form of a state machine, while in other > cases the complexity would be absolutely tremendous without using some > form of state management framework that at least approaches true > concurrency (and even then complexity would be considerably higher > than now). > > This is my reason for fundamentally preferring a concurrent approach, > and would love for it to be supported by the language/environment > being used, to an extent such that there is no need to fall back to > explicit state management. > > Enabling massive concurrency by asynchronous syscalls: > > Support for asynchronous syscalls, I believe, would help *a lot* in > realizing practical massive concurrency in a variety of environments, > from C/C++ to more higher level languages. > > C/C++ and similar w/ pthread concurrency model: > > One can already come *fairly* far by writing code in a stack > conscious manner. Most of the C/C++ I do is written with this in > mind, and having tens of thousands of threads or more is not a > problem at all, because the stack size can be very very > conservative. This is not to say that it is necessarily the most > efficient approach (context switching overhead, cache localitly, > etc), but it does get you pretty far - particularly when the > application is extremely concurrent in relation to the actual > amount of work done in total (that is, when your problem is not > CPU efficiency, but the ability to e.g. handle 30 000 clients, > most of which are mostly idle). > > That said, there are still issues. Regardless of whether explicit > memory management is used, or garbage collection, there is a > desire to reduce contention. Many mallocs have thread-local pools > (including jemalloc). But of course, if you want to be running > with a 32 kbyte stack size, suddenly you do not have a lot of room > for thread-local resources of that type. > > Having asynchronous syscalls, in combination with sufficient > support from the runtime/threading libraries, would allow for > these resources to scale with the number of *cores*, rather than > the number of threads. Even if the nature of the C language more > or less requires, as far as I can tell, that you retain a > per-thread native stack, it would be a huge plus in several > situations to be able to scale based on memory availability > relative to stack size, without worrying about secondary affects > like higher contention in malloc. > > Higher level languages with native threads (e.g. Python, > Ruby 1.9, some Common Lisps): > > A similar situation exists here as with C/C++. > > Higher level languages without native threads (Ruby 1.8, erlang, > chicken, etc): > > This is my primary motivation. Several languages attempt to get > away with using non-native threads, and end up being pretty > scalable in terms of concurrency - but at a cost. Only certain > operations are possible to do in a non-blocking fashion > (basically, I/O). > > In the case of e.g. Ruby and Chicken, the problem is simply lived > with, and other syscalls block the interpreter, causing the > language to be much less usable than it otherwise would have been, > in a variety of "production" situations. > > In the case of erlang, this problem is dealt with by requiring > blocking operations to be performed in a separate process, with > pretty expensive communication going on between those processes > and the core virtual machine. The fact that you can't just > randomly do your syscall, or blocking library call, right off the > bat means the threshold, in terms of effort, in interfacing with > native non-erlang code is pretty high. (Of course in erlang a > major purpose is to have this separation on purpose, to ensure > that the core virtual machine is not tained by broken native > code. I am ignoring that here.) > > The reason why your call blocks the entire {Ruby,Chicken,...} > interpreter is not that somebody *wants* this to happen, but > because of the effort required to fix this problem - especially if > you are not willing to take the massive performance hit of > requireing native threads. Ruby 1.9 will have native threading, > but at a certain cost in terms of concurrency overhead, but also > in terms of language power (continuations are no longer feasable > to support). > > Are asynchronous system calls just a bad idea to begin with? Am I > failing to identify major problems with this approach?[1] Is it just not > feasable at the kernel implementation level? How much of this overlaps > with KSE? KSE's asynchronous system calls could be used to do what you suggest however it turns out that if you are going to do this you probably want to do it in a way where the program is aware of what is going on, so the ability to make all syscalls "TRANSPARENTLY ASYNCHRONOUS" is not really a requirement. The async syscall part of KSE could be kept/reintroduced pretty seperatly from the thread support part, but it really requires someone to decide how to use it. > > Would it be correct to say that the primary complexity in implementing > this in the kernel, stems from exactly the problem I claim with > application development - a need for additional reliance on explicit > state management, in the blocking cases where, right now, a lot is > kept implicit in the process' kernel stack? > > If so I guess one could look at it as moving that problem from the > applications, to the kernel (and/or the runtime library). > > [1] One problem I can think of is that one will loose concurrency in > memory access, so that the impact of high-latency paging (to/from > disk) will likely be a lot higher, since your other threads (in the > same native thread/process) will not be able to execute during said > paging. A single page-in (and to a lesser extent page-out) effectively > blocks any number of "threads". > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 21:36:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5876106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:36:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org) Received: from mired.org (student.mired.org [66.92.153.77]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B8B8FC1D for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:36:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org) Received: (qmail 27744 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Mar 2008 17:36:09 -0400 Received: from bhuda.mired.org (192.168.195.1) by bhuda.mired.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:36:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:36:08 -0400 To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080319173608.558a3704@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.8; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Mike Meyer Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers , Jeremy Chadwick Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:36:52 -0000 On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:10:12 -0400 Chuck Robey wrote: > Not completely yet (I tend to be stubborn, if I carry this too far, tell me > in private mail and I will politely drop it). Your use cases show me the > differences in size, and *because* of the size, the differences in how > you'd use them, and that part I did already know. I'm perfectly well aware > of the current differences in size, but what I'm after is what are the real > differences, ignoring size, in what they actually accomplish, and how they > go about doing it. I'm thinking of the possibility of perhaps finding it > it might be possible to find some way to extend the work domain of an smp > system to stretch across machine lines, to jump across motherboards. Maybe > not to be global (huge latencies scare me away), but what about just going > 3 feet, on a very high speed bus, like maybe a private pci bus? Not what > is, what could be? What you're describing is a classic multi-cpu system. From the software point of view, it's just a another variant on the whole multiprocessor thing. I believe most modern multi-cpu systems share all the resources, and are all SMP. You could build one with memory that wasn't equally accessible to all CPUs in the system, but in general you don't want to do that unless the CPUs in question are doing different things, such as a GPU, an I/O processor of some kind, etc. So the answer to your two central questions "what are the real differences between what they actually accomplish and how they go about doing it" - at least for tightly coupled, everything shared multi-cpu boxes - is "there aren't any." There's been lots of work done in these areas, dating back to the 60s. Multics, Tandem and V are the ones that come to my mind, but there are others. There are schools of concurrent software design that hold that this should be true across the entire scale: that you design your system to work the same way on a single box with a quad-core CPU as you would on single-cpu boxes one each in Sao Paulo, Anchorage, Melbourne and Trondheim, as the differences are "implementation details". In real life, those difference are huge. In particular, if you're staying inside the same room, the critical one is going from "all memory shared" to "some memory shared", as the former means you can have a single memory location representing an external resource, and once you lock it you're set. With the latter, you can't do that - you have to bounce messages back and forth between the system, and get them all agree to let you have it before you work on it. This can easily push timing things out to as bad as the next level of sharing. For instance, I build ETL systems that shove thousands of multi-megabyte files/hour between boxes. It's actually faster to transfer the data over the network and let each box use an unshared file system for them than to rename the files on a shared disk from one directory to another, because doing the file rename requires locking both directories on every system that has access to them - which in this case means dozens of them. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 21:46:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32B31065670 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:46:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org) Received: from mired.org (student.mired.org [66.92.153.77]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4108B8FC29 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:46:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org) Received: (qmail 27865 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Mar 2008 17:45:19 -0400 Received: from bhuda.mired.org (192.168.195.1) by bhuda.mired.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:45:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:45:18 -0400 To: Erik Trulsson Message-ID: <20080319174518.202d241c@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <20080319203311.GA71206@owl.midgard.homeip.net> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> <20080319203311.GA71206@owl.midgard.homeip.net> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.8; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Mike Meyer Cc: Chuck Robey , Jeremy Chadwick , FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:46:01 -0000 On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:33:11 +0100 Erik Trulsson wrote: > A system that is written to work in a clustered environment can fairly > easily be moved to run on an SMP machine, but it will do a lot of work > that is not necessary under SMP and thus not make very good use of the > hardware. > Moving from SMP to cluster is more difficult. One can emulate the missing > hardware support in software, but this has a very high overhead. Or one > can rewrite the software completely, which is a lot of work. One way to think of such is that cluster software will typically consist of lots of processes talking to each other over sockets whereas SMP software will typically consist of one process with threads talking to each other through shared memory locations. On an SMP system the cluster software could be rewritten to use shared memory and hence improve performance. Likewise, moving the SMP program into a cluster environment means you have to replace shared objects with proxies that copy things around and coordinate actions. At least one concurrent software development system (Bertrand Meyer's SCOOP) is set up so the developer doesn't worry about those things; the location and communications channels of the objects in the program is specified at launch time. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 22:14:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E97106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:14:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scode@hyperion.scode.org) Received: from hyperion.scode.org (hyperion.scode.org [85.17.42.115]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B8E8FC1C for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:14:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scode@hyperion.scode.org) Received: by hyperion.scode.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8A38D23C49B; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:14:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:14:41 +0100 From: Peter Schuller To: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <20080319221441.GA22580@hyperion.scode.org> References: <20080318211453.GA37126@hyperion.scode.org> <47E183CC.6050309@elischer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E183CC.6050309@elischer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Asynchronous syscalls for massive concurrency X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:14:43 -0000 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > KSE's asynchronous system calls could be used to do what you suggest > however it turns out that if you are going to do this you probably want t= o=20 > do it in a way where the program is aware of what is going on, > so the ability to make all syscalls "TRANSPARENTLY ASYNCHRONOUS" is > not really a requirement. I did not mean to imply it had to be transparent; in fact that was not my goal. But I see it as a problem that, right now, if a process wishes to make n concurrent system calls (concurrent in the sense of the time period between request to response, not actually concurrent in terms of execution in the kernel or in user space), it *must* have n threads (or n co-operating processes). In other words, there is an enforcement that logical concurrency be matched with actual machine/kernel concurrency. This makes userland threading non-transparent (from the perspective of application code written in a language or framework that attempts to provide light-weight concurrency) because you can suddenly not count on all operations playing well with it. Basically, disregarding tricks that do things like offloading certain operations to separate processes (which still does not remove the n process/n thread requirement), any light-weight concurrency implementation is not generally applicable. That is, you are forced to trade trade light weight against a restricted feature set. > The async syscall part of KSE could be kept/reintroduced pretty > seperatly from the thread support part, but it really requires > someone to decide how to use it. The intended use would be to augment exiting code to take advantage of it. If it caught on among operating systems, it would be a big step forward in my opinion, from the perspective of application development. If a single or a few operating systems did it, they would have an advantage to the extent that someone actually implements the necessary support in $language_or_framework. In particular various higher level languages where it would make a huge difference to be able to support this in the interpreter/vm/core library. It would remove, or lessen, the need to differentiate between "not quite threads" and "threads" (witness stackless python tasks or ruby fibers, vs. the actual native threads in Python and Ruby 1.9; once again trading light-weight vs. generality). As far as I can see, it can be applied to the C runtime library as well, but the advantage would be less since you won't get around the need to maintain a per-thread native stack. This latter point is why I am mostly interested in it from the higher level language perspective, where higher level primitives (e.g., continuations, interpreter level stacks on the heap, etc) can be used for thread context instead of the native stack, thus removing the need to take an kbyte hit per thread just for the stack alone. It is not even mutually exclusive to native code compilation. Oh and btw, regarding my comment on paging: While as far as I can tell it holds relative to native threading, it is still not worse (better in fact) than the single-threaded state machine model where a high-latency paging operation blocks the entire process. --=20 / Peter Schuller PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfhkFEACgkQDNor2+l1i30DagCfb2S8OF/XRsFuSVL/Vmv9746u BdcAnA/ZLM8QkWmI601gkiPZIzrMX7zv =qfbe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 22:15:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE16F1065671 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:15:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stsp@stsp.name) Received: from einhorn.in-berlin.de (einhorn.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BC08FC22 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:15:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stsp@stsp.name) X-Envelope-From: stsp@stsp.name X-Envelope-To: Received: from stsp.name (ted.stsp.name [217.197.84.186]) (authenticated bits=128) by einhorn.in-berlin.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Debian-1) with ESMTP id m2JLutB1009403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:56:55 +0100 Received: from ted.stsp.name (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stsp.name (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JLvd4v002543 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:57:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stsp@ted.stsp.name) Received: (from stsp@localhost) by ted.stsp.name (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2JLvddt002542 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:57:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stsp) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:57:39 +0100 From: Stefan Sperling To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080319215739.GB1486@ted.stsp.name> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> <20080319134323.U38501@fledge.watson.org> <47E182E1.1060102@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="l76fUT7nc3MelDdI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E182E1.1060102@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang_at_IN-Berlin_e.V. on 192.109.42.8 Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:15:15 -0000 --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:17:21PM +0100, Kris Kennaway wrote: > You can=20 > also come up with your own project ideas if we have missed one :) I've got one: Implement wake on lan support for every ethernet device driver in the tree. ifconfig in -CURRENT already supports configuring WOL, but there's not a single driver yet that makes use of this. There should be enough information to get interested people going at http://wiki.freebsd.org/WakeOnLan Apart from if_vr patches by Yongari (linked from the wiki page) and some other patches that sit in a few peoples' mailboxes, nothing has been happening around this in a while. I myself am busy working on Subversion atm and will start working on my Bachelor theses starting next semester (April-Juli), so I'm out :/ I'd be available to answer questions if necessary, however. --=20 stefan http://stsp.name PGP Key: 0xF59D25F0 --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfhjFMACgkQ5dMCc/WdJfBs2wCfWvtAoLkvK4vvfv5ev/42tGqd miUAoIF2Le8/UL3SiCG4q173dE67LnPn =SeGn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 22:48:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A658C1065674 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:48:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748758FC1A for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:48:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2JMmkLu045987; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2JMmkEn045986; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803192248.m2JMmkEn045986@apollo.backplane.com> To: walt References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> <200803181806.m2II6OMc031236@apollo.backplane.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:48:47 -0000 :Matthew Dillon wrote: :> :Matt, :>... :> :Don't you use something like VMWare for development and debugging? : :> We use vkernel's for development and debugging. Pretty much everything :> except hardware device driver development can be done using a vkernel... : :Does that include trying to get rid of the BGL, for example? Yah, the SMP stuff works the same in a vkernel as it does in a real kernel. If anything, the vkernel is even more sensitive to conflicts since vkernel 'cpus' are threads on the real system and can wind up being scheduled as time-share (for example, booting a 4-cpu vkernel on a single-cpu platform). -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 19 23:15:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19CE106566B for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:15:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xi@borderworlds.dk) Received: from kazon.borderworlds.dk (kazon.borderworlds.dk [213.239.213.48]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBAC8FC13 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:15:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xi@borderworlds.dk) Received: from dominion.borderworlds.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kazon.borderworlds.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F481701C for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:55:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by dominion.borderworlds.dk (Postfix, from userid 2000) id D4B60495; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:55:19 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <2a7894eb0802200020g5e4f9ff8p7d3044bbec261706@mail.gmail.com> <2a7894eb0803171515l7a0e1acld84b793aa3c9cc6c@mail.gmail.com> <20080319134323.U38501@fledge.watson.org> <47E182E1.1060102@FreeBSD.org> <20080319215739.GB1486@ted.stsp.name> From: Christian Laursen Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:55:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080319215739.GB1486@ted.stsp.name> (Stefan Sperling's message of "Wed\, 19 Mar 2008 22\:57\:39 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.99 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Summer of Code 2008 Project Ideas X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:15:15 -0000 Stefan Sperling writes: > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:17:21PM +0100, Kris Kennaway wrote: >> You can >> also come up with your own project ideas if we have missed one :) > > I've got one: Implement wake on lan support for every ethernet > device driver in the tree. I like that idea. I miss being able to wake a few of my machines the way I could a couple of releases ago. -- Christian Laursen From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 04:06:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A38106566C for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:06:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org) Received: from mired.org (student.mired.org [66.92.153.77]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E7A8FC15 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:05:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org) Received: (qmail 3041 invoked by uid 1001); 20 Mar 2008 00:05:17 -0400 Received: from bhuda.mired.org (192.168.195.1) by bhuda.mired.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:05:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:19:50 -0400 To: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <20080319171950.79e567fa@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <47E16A0C.1010500@elischer.org> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> <47E16A0C.1010500@elischer.org> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.8; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Mike Meyer Cc: Chuck Robey , Jeremy Chadwick , FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:06:00 -0000 On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:31:24 -0700 Julian Elischer wrote: > Chuck Robey wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:03:54PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > >>> Well, I am, and I'm not, if you could answer me one quiestion, then I would > >>> probably know for sure. What is the difference between our SMP and the > >>> general idea of clustering, as typified by Beowulf? I was under the > >>> impression I was talking about seeing the possibility of moving the two > >>> closer together, but maybe I'm confused in the meanings? > >> SMP as an implementation is mainly intended for single systems with > >> multiple processors (e.g. multiple physical CPUs, or multiple cores; > >> same thing). It distributes kernel operations (kernel threads) across > >> those processors, rather than only utilising a single processor. > >> > >> Clustering allows for the distribution of a task (a compile using gcc, > >> running of certain disk I/O tasks, running multiple userland (or I > >> suppose kernel, if the kernel had clustering support) threads) across > >> multiple physical computers on a local network. > >> > >> The best example I have for real-world clustering is rendering (mostly > >> 3D, but you can "render" anything; I'm referring to 3D in this case). > >> > >> A person doing modelling creates a model scene using 3D objects, applies > >> textures to it, lighting, raytracing aspects, vertex/bones animation, > >> and anything else -- all using their single workstation. Then the > >> person wants to see what it all looks like -- either as a still frame > >> (JPEG/PNG/TIFF), or as a rendered animation (AVI/MPG/MJPEG). > >> > >> Without any form of clustering, the workstation has to do all of the > >> processing/rendering work by its lonesome self. This can take a very, > >> very long time -- modellers aren't going to wait 2 hours for their work > >> to render, only to find they messed up some bones vertexes half way into > >> the animation. > >> > >> With clustering, the workstation has the capability to send the > >> rendering request out onto the network to a series of what're called > >> "slaves" (other computers set up to handle such requests). The > >> workstation says "I want this rendered. I want all of you to do it". > >> Let's say there's 200 machines in the cluster as slaves, and let's say > >> all 200 of those machines are dual-core (so 400 CPUs total). You then > >> have 400 CPUs rendering your animation, versus just 2 on the > >> workstation. > >> > >> The same concept can apply to compiling (gcc saying "I want this C file > >> compiled" or whatever), or any other "distributed computing" > >> computational desired. It all depends on if the software you want to > >> support clustering can do it. > >> > >> Different clustering softwares run at different levels; some might act > >> as "virtual environments", thus underlying software may not need to know > >> about clustering (e.g. it "just works"); others might require each > >> program to be fully cluster-aware. > >> > >> Make sense? :-) > > > > Not completely yet (I tend to be stubborn, if I carry this too far, tell me > > in private mail and I will politely drop it). Your use cases show me the > > differences in size, and *because* of the size, the differences in how > > you'd use them, and that part I did already know. I'm perfectly well aware > > of the current differences in size, but what I'm after is what are the real > > differences, ignoring size, in what they actually accomplish, and how they > > go about doing it. I'm thinking of the possibility of perhaps finding it > > it might be possible to find some way to extend the work domain of an smp > > system to stretch across machine lines, to jump across motherboards. Maybe > > not to be global (huge latencies scare me away), but what about just going > > 3 feet, on a very high speed bus, like maybe a private pci bus? Not what > > is, what could be? > > > > And, I have experienced just as many looniees as you have, who ask for some > > gigantic task, then sit back and want to take the credit and act like a > > cheerleader, figuring they really got the thing going. Well, I DON'T > > really want the help, I have in mind a project for me and a friend, with > > small smallish machine resources, maybe a bunch of small ARM boards. I > > wouldn't turn down help, but I'm not really proselytizing. Something > > small, but with a bunch of bandwidth. So, in that case, what really are > > the differences between smp and clustering, besides the raw current size of > > the implementation? Are there huge basic differences between the > > clustering concept and by smp's actual tasks? > > The difference is in the "S" in SMP. I think you're grabbing the wrong difference. Loosing the symmetry in an SMP system leaves you with an asymmetric MP system, not a cluster. You can do asymmetric MP on a single box. Most early Unix MP implementations were such, as the easiest thing to implement. > In SMP all memory (and other resources) is equally available to all > processors and threads and processes can migrate around without > special regard for location. File descriptors and data are equally > available for all threadds of a process independenly of which CPU thye > are on.. etc. etc. This is true in some non-S MP system as well. What's different is that the kernel divides the work up between the processor(s) asymmetrically; typically that interrupts and kernel code run on only one processor (hence it's not symmetric). > Some resources are local. Some are not. threads running in a process > can only do so when they have access to all the resources of the > process. processes MAY be able to migrate, but it is a complex > operation that involves process snapshotting and transportation > of the snapshot etc. Some of them, anyway. Even worse, operations on those with the extra layer can't be locked locally, but have to be locked on the rest of the systems as well. This can lead to some really strange results (i.e. - it's faster to ship thousands of multi-megabyte files per hour across a network link than renaming them between directories on a SAN, because the SAN has to lock the two directories on all systems to do a rename). http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 08:15:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683811065739 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:15:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from modelnine@modelnine.org) Received: from jord.modelnine.org (jord.modelnine.org [83.246.72.120]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093BB8FC2B for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:15:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from modelnine@modelnine.org) Received: from [192.168.1.38] (a89-182-222-181.net-htp.de [89.182.222.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: modelnine) by jord.modelnine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA76A37383 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:15:03 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Wundram To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:16:10 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200803172156.37407.modelnine@modelnine.org> <20080317214510.G89676@odysseus.silby.com> <200803181614.33494.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200803181614.33494.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200803200916.11100.modelnine@modelnine.org> Subject: Re: valgrind on FreeBSD 7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:15:05 -0000 Am Dienstag, 18. M=E4rz 2008 06:44:23 schrieb Daniel O'Connor: > On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Mike Silbersack wrote: > > Here's a tarball of what's in perforce right now. I tried it a > > little bit, and it seemed to work for me. Make sure to install the > > kernel module! > > > > http://www.silby.com/valgrind_freebsd_3.tar.gz > > > > But don't send me questions about it - I'm not an expert on it, I'm > > just the guy who grabbed it from perforce and found that it seems to > > work. :) > > Thanks for that (and to whomever is cutting the code)! > > Valgrind is an enormously helpful tool. Okay, so far valgrind on FreeBSD 7 isn't workable for me, simply because it= =20 doesn't yet support threading (missing syscall implementation, which causes= =20 the running program to bomb). Anyway, if there is anybody who's regularily cutting releases from the=20 perforce tree, if you'd be so kind to give me a hint when a new release is= =20 available, I'd be more than grateful to give it a run! Thanks! =2D-=20 Heiko Wundram From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 13:02:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC061065673 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:02:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81F78FC17 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:02:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400BE1A4D80; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:02:25 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:54:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> <200803192248.m2JMmkEn045986@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200803192248.m2JMmkEn045986@apollo.backplane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200803200854.26258.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: walt Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:02:25 -0000 On Wednesday 19 March 2008 06:48:46 pm Matthew Dillon wrote: > :Matthew Dillon wrote: > :> :Matt, > :> > :>... > :> > :> :Don't you use something like VMWare for development and debugging? > :> > :> We use vkernel's for development and debugging. Pretty much > :> everything except hardware device driver development can be done using a > :> vkernel... > : > :Does that include trying to get rid of the BGL, for example? > > Yah, the SMP stuff works the same in a vkernel as it does in a real > kernel. If anything, the vkernel is even more sensitive to conflicts > since vkernel 'cpus' are threads on the real system and can wind up > being scheduled as time-share (for example, booting a 4-cpu vkernel > on a single-cpu platform). Except that you still need "real" hardware concurrency to see some races and that is important for testing. I'd worry about the overhead of any non-hardware assisted virtualization basically enforcing more serialization and coherency than is present in real-world systems meaning that code will work fine in the virtual environment and only break on real hardware. For example, when I worked on the rwlock implementation for FreeBSD 6/7, I wrote a custom kernel module that banged on the locks a lot and used KTR traces to verify that every single code path in the lock and unlock routines was exercised on a 4-way machine. I do think that vitualized environments can certainly be useful for many things (I used qemu for the recent GPT boot stuff and BTX changes and being able to single step in gdb for that was extremely useful and time-saving), but with concurrency races I think it is very important to make sure there is a lot of testing on full-speed, concurrent hardware. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 13:40:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B691065671 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:40:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stef-list@memberwebs.com) Received: from mx.npubs.com (mail.writemehere.com [209.66.100.224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D498FC17 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:40:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stef-list@memberwebs.com) Received: from mx.npubs.com (avhost [209.66.100.194]) by mx.npubs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBCA94C8A9 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:16:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from northstar-srv2 (unknown [172.27.2.11]) by mx.npubs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E66B94C853 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:16:38 +0000 (UTC) From: Stef Walter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030601000406070402070900" Message-Id: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:16:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:52:32 +0000 Subject: Vital Patches for ataraid with Intel Matrix RAID (ICH7) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stef@memberwebs.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:40:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030601000406070402070900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's some vital patches for the ataraid driver when using Intel Matrix RAID (often found built into mainboards these days). These are problems that will bite at the worst time: When a disk goes out in your RAID. A combined patch is attached which applies to FreeBSD 6 and 7, and the various specific problem reports and issues are outlined below. Cheers, Stef Walter Fix an early boot panic if you reboot with all drives present when your RAID is marked DEGRADED. This can happen if a drive has an unreadable block and the drive gets detached from the RAID. Rebooting at this point will panic. Yoichi created a patch for this over a year ago. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=102211 Don't duplicate the RAID amoeba style if you boot with a drive present that was detached from a RAID. This can happen if you manage to get past the above panic problem. You'll end up with two devices like ar0 and ar1. This can be a major mess if ar1 was already contained active file systems. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=121899 If you reboot after adding a spare, or during the rebuilding process, the RAID will become magically READY by itself. Not cool. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=102210 --------------030601000406070402070900 Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="intel-matrix-raid.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="intel-matrix-raid.patch" --- sys/dev/ata/ata-raid.c.orig 2008-03-19 11:20:15.000000000 +0000 +++ sys/dev/ata/ata-raid.c 2008-03-19 21:53:37.000000000 +0000 @@ -848,10 +848,17 @@ rdp->status &= ~AR_S_READY; } + /* + * Note that when the array breaks so comes up broken we + * force a write of the array config to the remaining + * drives so that the generation will be incremented past + * those of the missing or failed drives (in all cases). + */ if (rdp->status != status) { if (!(rdp->status & AR_S_READY)) { printf("ar%d: FAILURE - %s array broken\n", rdp->lun, ata_raid_type(rdp)); + writeback = 1; } else if (rdp->status & AR_S_DEGRADED) { if (rdp->type & (AR_T_RAID1 | AR_T_RAID01)) @@ -860,6 +867,7 @@ printf("ar%d: WARNING - parity", rdp->lun); printf(" protection lost. %s array in DEGRADED mode\n", ata_raid_type(rdp)); + writeback = 1; } } mtx_unlock(&rdp->lock); @@ -2157,22 +2165,23 @@ /* clear out any old info */ for (disk = 0; disk < raid->total_disks; disk++) { + u_int32_t disk_idx = map->disk_idx[disk] & 0xffff; raid->disks[disk].dev = NULL; - bcopy(meta->disk[map->disk_idx[disk]].serial, + bcopy(meta->disk[disk_idx].serial, raid->disks[disk].serial, sizeof(raid->disks[disk].serial)); raid->disks[disk].sectors = - meta->disk[map->disk_idx[disk]].sectors; + meta->disk[disk_idx].sectors; raid->disks[disk].flags = 0; - if (meta->disk[map->disk_idx[disk]].flags & INTEL_F_ONLINE) + if (meta->disk[disk_idx].flags & INTEL_F_ONLINE) raid->disks[disk].flags |= AR_DF_ONLINE; - if (meta->disk[map->disk_idx[disk]].flags & INTEL_F_ASSIGNED) + if (meta->disk[disk_idx].flags & INTEL_F_ASSIGNED) raid->disks[disk].flags |= AR_DF_ASSIGNED; - if (meta->disk[map->disk_idx[disk]].flags & INTEL_F_SPARE) { - raid->disks[disk].flags &= ~(AR_DF_ONLINE | AR_DF_ASSIGNED); - raid->disks[disk].flags |= AR_DF_SPARE; + if (meta->disk[disk_idx].flags & INTEL_F_SPARE) { + raid->disks[disk].flags &= ~AR_DF_ONLINE; + raid->disks[disk].flags |= (AR_DF_SPARE | AR_DF_ASSIGNED); } - if (meta->disk[map->disk_idx[disk]].flags & INTEL_F_DOWN) + if (meta->disk[disk_idx].flags & INTEL_F_DOWN) raid->disks[disk].flags &= ~AR_DF_ONLINE; } } @@ -2183,7 +2192,7 @@ if (!strncmp(raid->disks[disk].serial, atadev->param.serial, sizeof(raid->disks[disk].serial))) { raid->disks[disk].dev = parent; - raid->disks[disk].flags |= (AR_DF_PRESENT | AR_DF_ONLINE); + raid->disks[disk].flags |= AR_DF_PRESENT; ars->raid[raid->volume] = raid; ars->disk_number[raid->volume] = disk; retval = 1; @@ -2233,11 +2242,16 @@ } rdp->generation++; - microtime(×tamp); + + /* Generate a new config_id if none exists */ + if (!rdp->magic_0) { + microtime(×tamp); + rdp->magic_0 = timestamp.tv_sec ^ timestamp.tv_usec; + } bcopy(INTEL_MAGIC, meta->intel_id, sizeof(meta->intel_id)); bcopy(INTEL_VERSION_1100, meta->version, sizeof(meta->version)); - meta->config_id = timestamp.tv_sec; + meta->config_id = rdp->magic_0; meta->generation = rdp->generation; meta->total_disks = rdp->total_disks; meta->total_volumes = 1; /* XXX SOS */ --------------030601000406070402070900-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 15:05:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59BD1065670 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16C38FC1E for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7A19D1CC068; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:05:11 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: stef@memberwebs.com Message-ID: <20080320150511.GA59787@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vital Patches for ataraid with Intel Matrix RAID (ICH7) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:05:11 -0000 On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 01:16:39PM +0000, Stef Walter wrote: > Here's some vital patches for the ataraid driver when using Intel Matrix > RAID (often found built into mainboards these days). Will this address any of the MatrixRAID and/or ATA issues documented here? http://wiki.freebsd.org/JeremyChadwick/Commonly_reported_issues -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 15:38:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E56A106566B for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:38:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roam@ringlet.net) Received: from straylight.ringlet.net (nat98.cnsys.bg [85.95.80.98]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E67DA8FC1A for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roam@ringlet.net) Received: (qmail 28576 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Mar 2008 15:23:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:23:14 +0200 From: Peter Pentchev To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ivan Voras , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20080313210242.GA55395@hades.panopticon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080313210242.GA55395@hades.panopticon> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Transferring ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:38:59 -0000 --tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:02:42AM +0300, Dmitry Marakasov wrote: > * Ivan Voras (ivoras@freebsd.org) wrote: > > Is there a utility that would do that, and if not, does anyone have the > > time to write one? >=20 > Actually, I've already had an idea of utility with pretty similar > functionality for a long time. The utility would copy directory > hierarchies recursively based on file include/exclude list, like this: >=20 > +/{etc,bin,sbin,lib} > +/usr > -/usr/local > +/usr/local/{bin,sbin,libexec,share,lib} > -/usr/share/locale > +/usr/share/locale/ru_RU* >=20 > so `my_cool_copy_utility / /path/to/jail` will copy /etc,/bin,/sbin,/lib > and /usr dirs to jail, but in /usr/share/locale will only copy > russian locales, but no others, and in usr/local it won't copy > man, include and other dirs not needed in a jail. >=20 > The purpose is similar - creating jails out of host system in fast > and easy way, possibility to strip everything unneeded (useful for > secure minimal jails or flash/livecd/embedded installations of > minimal size) and add something extra, like stuff from /usr/local > without installing full packages in a jail, or, say, copying over > additional tree of jail-specific changes (mostly stuff under /etc > and /usr/local/etc). >=20 > Such an utility is something I still might start working on. Errrrrr... why not use rsync for that? It works locally, too - I use it to copy directories all over the place all the time. Come to think of it... oh, just go install net/rsync, take a look at its manual page and the "FILTER RULES" section in particular - it even supports rules with prefixes, "-" for exclude, "+" for include, just like you want them :) Well, okay, you might need to list separate directories on separate lines (it doesn't seem to support the {bin,sbin} syntax), but other than that, it seems to fit your requirements pretty well :) G'luck, Peter --=20 Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@cnsys.bg roam@FreeBSD.org PGP key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553 This sentence claims to be an Epimenides paradox, but it is lying. --tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfigWIACgkQ7Ri2jRYZRVPOoQCghV7wgK5dULUf/OsFVgvOkABG G6oAmwRpUG8K8+fnJenOC4mWEccALUbe =NDnj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 16:45:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D9A1065673 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791B78FC1C for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:45:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2KGj65D053981; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.1/8.13.4/Submit) id m2KGj6BP053980; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:45:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200803201645.m2KGj6BP053980@apollo.backplane.com> To: John Baldwin References: <200803172158.m2HLwPSI021438@apollo.backplane.com> <200803192248.m2JMmkEn045986@apollo.backplane.com> <200803200854.26258.jhb@freebsd.org> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, walt Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:45:07 -0000 :Except that you still need "real" hardware concurrency to see some races and :that is important for testing. I'd worry about the overhead of any :non-hardware assisted virtualization basically enforcing more serialization :and coherency than is present in real-world systems meaning that code will :work fine in the virtual environment and only break on real hardware. For :example, when I worked on the rwlock implementation for FreeBSD 6/7, I wrote :a custom kernel module that banged on the locks a lot and used KTR traces to :verify that every single code path in the lock and unlock routines was :exercised on a 4-way machine. : :I do think that vitualized environments can certainly be useful for many :things (I used qemu for the recent GPT boot stuff and BTX changes and being :able to single step in gdb for that was extremely useful and time-saving), :but with concurrency races I think it is very important to make sure there is :a lot of testing on full-speed, concurrent hardware. : :-- :John Baldwin Hardware and vkernel/qemu environments exercise different code paths and different timing mechanics. Certain bugs show up on vkernel's more readily then on real hardware, while other bugs show up more readily on real hardware then on vkernel's. I don't think one is particularly better then another with regards to testing, they just cover different continuums. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 16:52:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9336B106566C for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:52:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from qb-out-0506.google.com (qb-out-0506.google.com [72.14.204.238]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9468FC21 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:52:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: by qb-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id a10so1351967qbd.7 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:52:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=GCv1vuDNqA1bP2711iWD4JCEBCJrtbr45HuqYJPwrLY=; b=WTkpa+nxhaco3fnzQ57I6l1JqW7bhunc9Qp3HQD6++xpbjb70b+dU7S89GagfN9IyXY4x9eh3x1yKt1E23Z2ewxY9dc9PaXPmcsR5cUoQztCSz1Vdz2pPsCbICiXywSFzh/rt2hLjUMnBFN7Tup4v18tf1VkzaX7aVVFwCJBwuQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dvmPp633o4tTmB9RV9Mn8N9G+w10BRpnuMEgAiEXVIn2etIkHZ2SxgpxxmGoYzDLuvUcqETSvwLUtqlvfoS1rCxTfp2q8/UENP7sO+LK13gITN6OqtpB7K+ADbTK7cuR4guIJvZv7M/fABPwwqItCN/7OOO/cyJcn9elU94U9ug= Received: by 10.140.249.20 with SMTP id w20mr883831rvh.21.1206031935374; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.212.1 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9bbcef730803200952t3058f247k3913fbbfbc1ef214@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:52:15 +0100 From: "Ivan Voras" Sender: ivoras@gmail.com To: "Doug Poland" In-Reply-To: <47E287EF.1010802@polands.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080313210242.GA55395@hades.panopticon> <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> <47E287EF.1010802@polands.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c3b0f80fba0aceb3 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Transferring ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:52:16 -0000 On 20/03/2008, Doug Poland wrote: > Peter Pentchev wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:02:42AM +0300, Dmitry Marakasov wrote: > >> * Ivan Voras (ivoras@freebsd.org) wrote: > >>> Is there a utility that would do that, and if not, does anyone have the > >>> time to write one? > >> > > Would this not be an appropriate use for packages? If one creates a > package for every installed port on the "host" system, then one simply > installs the package on the target system. Yes, that's exactly what I need (the same functionality as "pkg_create -b" + install on the other system), only without the actual package file being created. Pipes would also be acceptable (piping the output of pkg_create from one machine to the other, etc). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 16:06:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173841065674; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@polands.org) Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.123]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C458B8FC16; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:06:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@polands.org) Received: from corinth.polands.org ([75.87.219.217]) by hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080320155118.JJHR25381.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@corinth.polands.org>; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:51:18 +0000 Received: from omnihp.polands.org ([208.49.58.254]) by corinth.polands.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2KFpHWR021924; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:51:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from doug@polands.org) Message-ID: <47E287EF.1010802@polands.org> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:51:11 -0500 From: Doug Poland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080315) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20080313210242.GA55395@hades.panopticon> <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> In-Reply-To: <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.4/6310/Thu Mar 20 01:02:00 2008 on corinth.polands.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:20:38 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: Transferring ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:06:24 -0000 Peter Pentchev wrote: > On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:02:42AM +0300, Dmitry Marakasov wrote: >> * Ivan Voras (ivoras@freebsd.org) wrote: >>> Is there a utility that would do that, and if not, does anyone have the >>> time to write one? >> Would this not be an appropriate use for packages? If one creates a package for every installed port on the "host" system, then one simply installs the package on the target system. I have used this technique with some success when "transferring" ports from one system to another. In my situation, I'm using the same architecture (i386) and OS version (6.3 --> 6.3 or 7.0 --> 7.0). -- Regards, Doug From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 17:38:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB031065671 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outY.internet-mail-service.net (outY.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.248]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2408FC25 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:38:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:38:52 -0700 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4132D6018; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47E2A12B.2010207@elischer.org> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:38:51 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20080313210242.GA55395@hades.panopticon> <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> In-Reply-To: <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: Transferring ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:38:52 -0000 Peter Pentchev wrote: > On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:02:42AM +0300, Dmitry Marakasov wrote: >> >> The purpose is similar - creating jails out of host system in fast >> and easy way, possibility to strip everything unneeded (useful for >> secure minimal jails or flash/livecd/embedded installations of >> minimal size) and add something extra, like stuff from /usr/local >> without installing full packages in a jail, or, say, copying over >> additional tree of jail-specific changes (mostly stuff under /etc >> and /usr/local/etc). >> >> Such an utility is something I still might start working on. I don't use the host system.. I keep a special pristine jail just for that purpose (to act as a source for other jails). sometimes I also use null=mounts, and sometimes if the jails are on one big partition, I hardlink some stuff.. e.g binaries in /bin etc betweem teh jails.. saves memory and disk.. Of course that is only when I basically trust the jail user (me). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 19:31:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E711065670 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:31:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from itz@mushinsky.net) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F318FC17 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from itz@mushinsky.net) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so648192nfb.33 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.133.18 with SMTP id g18mr1050225ybd.74.1206039892960; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.139.1 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:04:52 -0400 From: "Isaac Mushinsky" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Linux version of libusb that works with FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:31:17 -0000 There was a thread on this subject a couple of months ago: a working libusb in /compat/linux. Has anybody tried to make this work? There is a linux binary application I want to run and a photo film scanner that it uses via libusb directly (not sane backend)... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 20:11:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC3A1065674 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from service1.sh.cvut.cz (service1.sh.cvut.cz [147.32.127.214]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489168FC22 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by service1.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC7F1237AD; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:54:09 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at service1.sh.cvut.cz X-Spam-Score: -0.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.093 tagged_above=-255 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.307, CRM114_HAM_00=, JR_RCVD_TOO_FEW_HOPS=0.6] Received: from service1.sh.cvut.cz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (service1.sh.cvut.cz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zXUvhSvwCHx6; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:54:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r4v24.net.upc.cz [84.42.149.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by service1.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6EB1237B1; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:54:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47E2C0DC.1070607@sh.cvut.cz> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:54:04 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VsOhY2xhdiBIYWlzbWFu?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig9F714A076632042089C599B3" Subject: fpathconf() and extended attributes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:11:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig9F714A076632042089C599B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I am trying to detect whether it is possible to set extended attributes o= n a=20 file/fd. Now, fpathconf() seems like it could be the right thing but=20 pathconf(2) doesn't mention extended attributes at all and neither does=20 statfs(2). Is there any other way how to detect extended attributes avail= ability? -- VH --------------enig9F714A076632042089C599B3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4sDnoUFWwtEPkHIRCGHgAJ42/aobiP4kO0vYl8cZ4Vt9qie1QwCfdD2E IHrSju1shgdNXGbhCs/I/7g= =GWzQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig9F714A076632042089C599B3-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 19:24:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5651065671; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:24:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@polands.org) Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com [71.74.56.123]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069658FC17; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:24:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@polands.org) Received: from corinth.polands.org ([75.87.219.217]) by hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080320192411.XUXQ6098.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@corinth.polands.org>; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:24:11 +0000 Received: from omnihp.polands.org ([208.49.58.254]) by corinth.polands.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2KJOAlg023222; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:24:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from doug@polands.org) Message-ID: <47E2B9D4.7070000@polands.org> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:24:04 -0500 From: Doug Poland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080315) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <20080313210242.GA55395@hades.panopticon> <20080320152314.GA1586@straylight.m.ringlet.net> <47E287EF.1010802@polands.org> <9bbcef730803200952t3058f247k3913fbbfbc1ef214@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9bbcef730803200952t3058f247k3913fbbfbc1ef214@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.4/6311/Thu Mar 20 11:35:54 2008 on corinth.polands.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:40:35 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Transferring ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:24:12 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > On 20/03/2008, Doug Poland wrote: >> Peter Pentchev wrote: >> > On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:02:42AM +0300, Dmitry Marakasov wrote: >> >> * Ivan Voras (ivoras@freebsd.org) wrote: >> >>> Is there a utility that would do that, and if not, does anyone have the >> >>> time to write one? >> >> >> >> Would this not be an appropriate use for packages? If one creates a >> package for every installed port on the "host" system, then one simply >> installs the package on the target system. > > Yes, that's exactly what I need (the same functionality as "pkg_create > -b" + install on the other system), only without the actual package > file being created. Pipes would also be acceptable (piping the output > of pkg_create from one machine to the other, etc). > Too bad you cannot accept the package file. If pkg_create would accept a - instead of specifying the output tarball, then one could do some foo with nc, i.e., target# nc -l 1234 | tar -xf - source# pkg_create -b mypackage - | nc target 1234 -- Regards, Doug From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 20:03:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843131065680; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:03:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stef@memberwebs.com) Received: from mx.npubs.com (mail.wsfamily.com [209.66.100.224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6116F8FC1B; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:03:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stef@memberwebs.com) Received: from mx.npubs.com (avhost [209.66.100.194]) by mx.npubs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52E694C8B9; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:35:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from northstar-srv2 (unknown [172.27.2.11]) by mx.npubs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249BD94C8B7; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:35:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Stef Walter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> <20080320150511.GA59787@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20080320193540.249BD94C8B7@mx.npubs.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:35:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:42:18 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vital Patches for ataraid with Intel Matrix RAID (ICH7) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:03:43 -0000 Nice list. All the fixes I made were Intel MatrixRAID specific. It should fix the following issue on your list, as well as others not listed. Intel MatrixRAID incompatibilities * Symptom: When using a MatrixRAID-managed RAID1 array, one can crash the kernel when a disk is lost then later reattached Open PR: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/108924 FWIW, kern/108924 seems to be a duplicate of kern/102211 Cheers, Stef Walter Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 01:16:39PM +0000, Stef Walter wrote: >> Here's some vital patches for the ataraid driver when using Intel Matrix >> RAID (often found built into mainboards these days). > > Will this address any of the MatrixRAID and/or ATA issues documented > here? > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/JeremyChadwick/Commonly_reported_issues > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 20 21:23:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A416D106567E; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:23:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from babkin@verizon.net) Received: from vms042pub.verizon.net (vms042pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818E18FC14; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:23:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from babkin@verizon.net) Received: from vms071.mailsrvcs.net ([172.18.12.131]) by vms042.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JY100DKKSQOGIH1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:23:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 65.242.108.162 ([65.242.108.162]) by vms071.mailsrvcs.net (Verizon Webmail) with HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:23:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:23:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Sergey Babkin X-Originating-IP: [65.242.108.162] To: John Baldwin , Matthew Dillon Message-id: <12362883.2752181206048192946.JavaMail.root@vms071.mailsrvcs.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:43:32 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, walt Subject: Re: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:23:13 -0000 >From: Matthew Dillon >To: John Baldwin >:Except that you still need "real" hardware concurrency to see some races and >:that is important for testing. I'd worry about the overhead of any > > Hardware and vkernel/qemu environments exercise different code paths > and different timing mechanics. Certain bugs show up on vkernel's > more readily then on real hardware, while other bugs show up more > readily on real hardware then on vkernel's. I don't think one is When testing multi-threaded code I sometimes insert artificial delays at different strategic locations. This widens any present race windows and makes the related bugs show up every time instead of once in a while. Of course, the resulting code works slower during the tests too :-) -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 01:16:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7635106567B for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 01:16:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.187]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7030D8FC25 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 01:16:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-20-82.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.20.82]) by mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m2L1FmBf031875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:15:56 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2L1FmKF069247; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:15:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2L1FlkM069246; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:15:47 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:15:47 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Chuck Robey Message-ID: <20080321011547.GA69011@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <47DF1045.6050202@chuckr.org> <20080318082816.GA74218@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E146F9.5060105@chuckr.org> <20080319172213.GA28075@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E1558A.2030107@chuckr.org> <20080319184244.GA29838@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47E16514.7090203@chuckr.org> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: remote operation or admin X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 01:16:07 -0000 --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 03:10:12PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >it might be possible to find some way to extend the work domain of an smp >system to stretch across machine lines, to jump across motherboards. Maybe >not to be global (huge latencies scare me away), but what about just going >3 feet, on a very high speed bus, like maybe a private pci bus? Not what >is, what could be? This is definitely possible. DEC built a memory channel adapter which allowed multiple AlphaServers to share (part of) each other's RAM. You could also try looking at Amoeba - it is a cross between a "traditional" SMP system and a cluster. There's probably no reason why you couldn't build a kernel module to "share" RAM between hosts using Ethernet or similar - though it would be much slower than accessing local RAM. >small, but with a bunch of bandwidth. So, in that case, what really are >the differences between smp and clustering, besides the raw current size of >the implementation? Are there huge basic differences between the >clustering concept and by smp's actual tasks? The access time differences between local and remote RAM mean that there are different trade-offs: Memory coherence is extremely expensive so more effort is expended in avoiding operations that require coherence. In general tasks that work well in a clustered environment have very low inter-process communication requirements. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkfjDEMACgkQ/opHv/APuIc65wCfcgbQTBbiTKgRbozJmTkYRDho WzMAn1stcC68WpWWqu57rBMkNXSOReHl =CQEP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 16:34:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FAB106566B for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:34:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE4F8FC12 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:34:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2LGWUkv068653; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:32:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:33:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080321.103310.-1301412573.imp@bsdimp.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, olli@lurza.secnetix.de From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <200803191633.m2JGXuBt088272@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <47E03BDB.40406@mawer.org> <200803191633.m2JGXuBt088272@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:34:32 -0000 In message: <200803191633.m2JGXuBt088272@lurza.secnetix.de> Oliver Fromme writes: : The vkernel feature has certainly benefits, e.g. the fact : that you can attach to it with standard gdb and use the : familiar debugging facilities, which can attract more Can't you say qemu -s and attach gdb to that port as well? Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 16:34:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAAC106566B for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:34:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA7C8FC17 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:34:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2LGYEiE068683; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:34:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080321.103454.174086793.imp@bsdimp.com> To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> References: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:34:44 -0000 In message: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> Giorgos Keramidas writes: : On 2008-03-18 21:28, V??clav Haisman wrote: : > Hi, : > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build process : > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get the : > following: : > : > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make : > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9: : > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} == "no") : > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif : > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue : > : > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use /usr/src : > tree that does not reside in /usr/src? : : Hmmm, that should work. I regularly build as a non-root user, at : `/home/build/src'. : : The error about ``Malformed conditional'' seems a bit odd too. Are you : using /usr/bin/make? What version of FreeBSD is the build host running, : and what version of the source tree have you checked out? The problem is that MK_DYNAMICROOT is defined by bsd.own.mk. This likely means that he's not building the same version of FreeBSD as the system is running, otherwise the system's bsd.own.mk file would cope. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 20:25:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8B5106567D for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:25:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from service2.sh.cvut.cz (service2.sh.cvut.cz [IPv6:2001:718:2:0:217:a4ff:fe3f:b3d4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD0F8FC18 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:25:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by service2.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCAA137742; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:25:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from service2.sh.cvut.cz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (service2.sh.cvut.cz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04813-02; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:25:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r4v24.net.upc.cz [84.42.149.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by service2.sh.cvut.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B1013773A; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:25:47 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47E419A5.7060407@sh.cvut.cz> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:25:09 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?VsOhY2xhdiBIYWlzbWFu?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <47E02602.1050102@sh.cvut.cz> <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> <20080321.103454.174086793.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20080321.103454.174086793.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigCF43B03C9349EAF091464BFD" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at service2.sh.cvut.cz X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 tagged_above=-255.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL, CRM114_HAM_00, JR_RCVD_TOO_FEW_HOPS X-Spam-Level: Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:25:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigCF43B03C9349EAF091464BFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable M. Warner Losh wrote, On 21.3.2008 17:34: > In message: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > : On 2008-03-18 21:28, V??clav Haisman wrote: > : > Hi, > : > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build proces= s > : > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I get th= e > : > following: > : > > : > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make > : > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line 9: > : > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} =3D=3D "no") > : > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif > : > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue > : > > : > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use /usr= /src > : > tree that does not reside in /usr/src? > :=20 > : Hmmm, that should work. I regularly build as a non-root user, at > : `/home/build/src'. > :=20 > : The error about ``Malformed conditional'' seems a bit odd too. Are y= ou > : using /usr/bin/make? What version of FreeBSD is the build host runni= ng, > : and what version of the source tree have you checked out? >=20 > The problem is that MK_DYNAMICROOT is defined by bsd.own.mk. This > likely means that he's not building the same version of FreeBSD as the > system is running, otherwise the system's bsd.own.mk file would cope. >=20 > Warner That was the problem as I stated in email from two days ago. I guess nobo= dy=20 noticed the second email :) -- VH --------------enigCF43B03C9349EAF091464BFD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH5Bm3oUFWwtEPkHIRCDWVAJ9/MxtdueE1EeGqGBuPfOv6ybKsJACfVESl HSkffh6qSdmhkmKDrvKOk/g= =FTjK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigCF43B03C9349EAF091464BFD-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 20:31:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5161065677 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:31:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com (el-out-1112.google.com [209.85.162.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30FE8FC13 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so1059251ele.12 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:received:received:x-authentication-warning:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:user-agent; bh=xuKSpXEMlo0HbRtbboxlZG1l1ijBnk0XqwMFioJLc5U=; b=gCgl0JaoU9VxgQar/IDR1ZD1qfkf/jruVZAi5xRuev0ofTl+lVMN5mR5igxRSMiDmd+sdZDhD6CQqZrl47Kgao45tojvr7eOP2PTpoMgRapgrDsoRKYZDrruK0TFsCIUe2z1d89kOQX2inTvvVvAnCBo2GsxTrNnEpfl3XfQ80U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=x-authentication-warning:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:user-agent; b=OxzZptA3KVZQ20XXMtvs3JW0/XYGqaoz5j4kXfddfrchLPSWbfDxtH4LKz9nCW2MqZOjngo9r6JThBlakmRZlspRexZZbph44zc3k63zS36qm3e4uSLzrRp/0gKTXrkjjkOYu/bEoIEA3TBAjAHPw2WjP2hIZL20Vy53QXEIPJM= Received: by 10.150.143.14 with SMTP id q14mr1803266ybd.113.1206129799714; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ( [85.8.1.55]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h4sm6043443nfh.8.2008.03.21.13.03.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost.my.domain) by localhost with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JcnSR-0003cn-Ux for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:03:20 +0100 Received: (from kaffir@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2LK3J6V013936 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:03:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kaiwang27@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: kaffir set sender to kaiwang27@gmail.com using -f Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:03:19 +0100 From: Kai Wang To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080321200319.GA13917@plan0> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: features of objcopy X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:31:26 -0000 Hi list, I'm working on a BSD Licensed objcopy/strip rewrite(in p4) based on libelf, I really want to know the answers to a few questions listed below, and please do not hesitate if you have other related suggestions. Thanks in advance! 1. Do you often use object/strip on 'ar' archives? 2. Do you often convert ELF to raw binary, iHex, S-Record or vice versa? 3. What features do you like to add into objcopy? 4. What features would be useful for FreeBSD build system and is currently missing in objcopy? -- Kai From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 20:35:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965E7106568A for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:35:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496038FC17 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:35:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2LKViV9071446; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:31:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:32:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080321.143224.556005365.imp@bsdimp.com> To: v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <47E419A5.7060407@sh.cvut.cz> References: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> <20080321.103454.174086793.imp@bsdimp.com> <47E419A5.7060407@sh.cvut.cz> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:35:17 -0000 In message: <47E419A5.7060407@sh.cvut.cz> V=E1clav Haisman writes: : M. Warner Losh wrote, On 21.3.2008 17:34: : > In message: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> : > Giorgos Keramidas writes: : > : On 2008-03-18 21:28, V??clav Haisman wrote= : : > : > Hi, : > : > I am trying to use /usr/src copied to my $HOME but the build pr= ocess : > : > doesn't want to work. For example when I try build /bin/cp I ge= t the : > : > following: : > : > : > : > shell::wilx:~/freebsd/src/bin/cp> make : > : > "/usr/home/users/wilx/freebsd/src/bin/cp/../Makefile.inc", line= 9: : > : > Malformed conditional (${MK_DYNAMICROOT} =3D=3D "no") : > : > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif : > : > make: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue : > : > : > : > Is there any sort of tutorial/prescription anywhere how to use = /usr/src : > : > tree that does not reside in /usr/src? : > : = : > : Hmmm, that should work. I regularly build as a non-root user, at= : > : `/home/build/src'. : > : = : > : The error about ``Malformed conditional'' seems a bit odd too. A= re you : > : using /usr/bin/make? What version of FreeBSD is the build host r= unning, : > : and what version of the source tree have you checked out? : > = : > The problem is that MK_DYNAMICROOT is defined by bsd.own.mk. This : > likely means that he's not building the same version of FreeBSD as = the : > system is running, otherwise the system's bsd.own.mk file would cop= e. : > = : > Warner : That was the problem as I stated in email from two days ago. I guess = nobody = : noticed the second email :) I noticed after I replied. That should teach me to read the whole thread before replying :-) Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 20:44:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9AE01065670 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:44:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C858FC24 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:44:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from vampire.homelinux.org (dslb-088-066-001-036.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.66.1.36]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu6) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML29c-1Jco670s64-000283; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:44:19 +0100 Received: (qmail 4855 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2008 20:43:31 -0000 Received: from myhost.laiers.local (192.168.4.151) by mx.laiers.local with SMTP; 21 Mar 2008 20:43:31 -0000 From: Max Laier Organization: FreeBSD To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:42:56 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080321200319.GA13917@plan0> In-Reply-To: <20080321200319.GA13917@plan0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200803212142.56886.max@love2party.net> X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/Q7m3O+D60gTANBFjX7mdA5AzKXI+91bHvASu YxNLjB7DZLhnP7iGCtsV0bxDKp/nDbI50czf9DG8lL+VGzAhAg BV5/2iHu+EzXM2+TjUCNw== Cc: Kai Wang Subject: Re: features of objcopy X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:44:21 -0000 On Friday 21 March 2008 21:03:19 Kai Wang wrote: > Hi list, > > I'm working on a BSD Licensed objcopy/strip rewrite(in p4) based on > libelf, I really want to know the answers to a few questions listed > below, and please do not hesitate if you have other related > suggestions. Thanks in advance! > > 1. Do you often use object/strip on 'ar' archives? > > 2. Do you often convert ELF to raw binary, iHex, S-Record or > vice versa? > > 3. What features do you like to add into objcopy? > > 4. What features would be useful for FreeBSD build system > and is currently missing in objcopy? take a look at how we currently build firmware(9) modules (this concerns 2-4). Right now we use ld to convert a raw binary to something we can link and have basic symbols to find the start and length of the binary. This works, but not for all archs (ia64) and could be more comfortable. I remember that we tried GNU objcopy at first, but it didn't give what we were looking for - don't recall details, though. Let me know if you have questions about this. -- /"\ Best regards, | mlaier@freebsd.org \ / Max Laier | ICQ #67774661 X http://pf4freebsd.love2party.net/ | mlaier@EFnet / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 21:51:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B98106564A for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:51:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-out-04.forthnet.gr (mx-out.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E23F8FC22 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:51:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-av-04.forthnet.gr (mx-av.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.27]) by mx-out-04.forthnet.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2LLpEqP007236; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:51:14 +0200 Received: from MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr (mx-in-05.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.32]) by mx-av-04.forthnet.gr (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2LLpDul008826; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:51:13 +0200 Received: from kobe.laptop (adsl52-170.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.179.170]) by MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LLp4Yl027896; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:51:06 +0200 Authentication-Results: MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr smtp.mail=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; spf=neutral Authentication-Results: MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr header.from=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; sender-id=neutral Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LLp3pb002074; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:51:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2LLp3KO002073; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:51:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <20080319043647.GA6088@kobe.laptop> <20080321.103454.174086793.imp@bsdimp.com> <47E419A5.7060407@sh.cvut.cz> <20080321.143224.556005365.imp@bsdimp.com> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:51:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20080321.143224.556005365.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:32:24 -0600 (MDT)") Message-ID: <878x0brbjt.fsf@kobe.laptop> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, v.haisman@sh.cvut.cz Subject: Re: Building in /usr/src copied to $HOME X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:51:17 -0000 On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:32:24 -0600 (MDT), "M. Warner Losh" = wrote: > In message: <47E419A5.7060407@sh.cvut.cz> > V=A8=A2clav Haisman writes: > : > The problem is that MK_DYNAMICROOT is defined by bsd.own.mk. This > : > likely means that he's not building the same version of FreeBSD as > : > the system is running, otherwise the system's bsd.own.mk file > : > would cope. > : > : That was the problem as I stated in email from two days ago. I guess > : nobody noticed the second email :) > > I noticed after I replied. That should teach me to read the whole > thread before replying :-) I replied offline, and then got the rest of the thread when I reconnected. My apologies for the noise. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 23:10:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E281065672 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:10:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A719B8FC1D for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:10:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAE0E2845A for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:10:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (tarsier.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB3BEBBD88; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:10:30 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrNKcDjlqysU; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:10:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (71.5.7.139.ptr.us.xo.net [71.5.7.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DBDDEB597B; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:10:24 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vavydZsCPmCzEak0OMSfr9rvoEnlJbGlRVmDCMbRiVxdyYFi2CM99ZGeC9SqfrtsY KHGD6XZVkk4P0NnUlbSMg== Message-ID: <47E4405E.2080609@delphij.net> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:10:22 -0700 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080312) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Some versioned storage program? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:10:33 -0000 Hi, folks, I'm looking for some versioned storage program that can fulfill the following requirements: - Open source/Free Software that can run on FreeBSD, or not far (i.e. on other POSIX OS) - Support of atomic commit/rollback. - Fast checkin time (At least, when added/changed files are explicitly specified). - Fast update time (i.e. something like 'cvsup -s' that makes it possible to trust bookkeeping file rather than stat'ing every files) - Scalable for a large number of files, directories and revisions. Say, it is not acceptable for it to store a zillion of revisions as individual files within one directory. - Ideally it can support some sort of "hook" functions upon commit so that changes can be notified in some way such as e-mail. - Ideally it can support fast export of a snapshot for HEAD and "nearby" revision like HEAD - 1, etc. I think what I need is some SCM software like subversion or hg, but I do not know if there is some superior stuff that matches these requirements better. Any other suggestions? Cheers, -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 21 23:13:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B10106566B for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:13:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joerg@britannica.bec.de) Received: from www.pkgsrc-box.org (www.ostsee-abc.de [62.206.222.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E868FC1A for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:13:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joerg@britannica.bec.de) Received: from britannica.bec.de (www.pkgsrc-box.org [127.0.0.1]) by www.pkgsrc-box.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A26E4195B for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:13:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by britannica.bec.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2F416175D5; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:12:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:12:38 +0100 From: Joerg Sonnenberger To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080321231238.GA24130@britannica.bec.de> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20080321200319.GA13917@plan0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080321200319.GA13917@plan0> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Re: features of objcopy X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:13:08 -0000 On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 09:03:19PM +0100, Kai Wang wrote: > 1. Do you often use object/strip on 'ar' archives? Strip on ar(1)chives is very handy. > 2. Do you often convert ELF to raw binary, iHex, S-Record or > vice versa? Not via objcopy, but with ld. > 3. What features do you like to add into objcopy? Proper support to add loadable sections that end up in the header as well. Consider loadable memory disk images as part of the kernel without having to preallocate the space. Joerg From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 22 00:10:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33F2106566C for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:10:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-out-03.forthnet.gr (mx-out.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148B38FC19 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:10:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-av-05.forthnet.gr (mx-av.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.27]) by mx-out-03.forthnet.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2M0AVmF023055; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:10:31 +0200 Received: from MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr (mx-in-05.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.32]) by mx-av-05.forthnet.gr (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2M0ADJv009587; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:10:13 +0200 Received: from kobe.laptop (adsl44-54.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.171.54]) by MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2M0A4Zr016208; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:10:06 +0200 Authentication-Results: MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr smtp.mail=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; spf=neutral Authentication-Results: MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr header.from=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; sender-id=neutral Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2M0A3lt013137; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:10:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2M0A16J013133; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:10:01 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) From: Giorgos Keramidas To: d@delphij.net References: <47E4405E.2080609@delphij.net> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 02:10:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <47E4405E.2080609@delphij.net> (Xin LI's message of "Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:10:22 -0700") Message-ID: <874pazpqjq.fsf@kobe.laptop> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some versioned storage program? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:10:35 -0000 On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:10:22 -0700, Xin LI wrote: > Hi, folks, > > I'm looking for some versioned storage program that can fulfill the > following requirements: > > - Open source/Free Software that can run on FreeBSD, or not far > (i.e. on other POSIX OS) > - Support of atomic commit/rollback. > - Fast checkin time (At least, when added/changed files are explicitly > specified). > - Fast update time (i.e. something like 'cvsup -s' that makes it > possible to trust bookkeeping file rather than stat'ing every files) > - Scalable for a large number of files, directories and revisions. Say, > it is not acceptable for it to store a zillion of revisions as > individual files within one directory. > - Ideally it can support some sort of "hook" functions upon commit so > that changes can be notified in some way such as e-mail. > - Ideally it can support fast export of a snapshot for HEAD and > "nearby" revision like HEAD - 1, etc. > > I think what I need is some SCM software like subversion or hg, but I do > not know if there is some superior stuff that matches these requirements > better. Any other suggestions? Before you start using Hg, Git or Subversion it may be worth experimenting a bit with them. My apologies if you _have_ already and the previous sentence sounds patronising. All I'm saying is that they all have a fair share of good, not so good, or even bad aspects. So it would be nice to have tried them all a bit and pick the one that seems like the best fit for the job at hand :) To provide a few starting points: - Subversion, Git and Hg, all run on FreeBSD - They support 'changesets' as the basic model of storing commits - Commit speed varies a bit. For locally stored 'workspaces', Git and Hg seem to be more or less equally fast, with Subversion being a close second - Update times tend to vary a bit too. Hg and Git will blow Subversion away on locally stored repositories, but they might suck a bit on NFS workspaces - Storing individual revisions as 'a zillion directory entries in a single tree' seem to point at Subversion. Have you already tried it, and found that it doesn't scale for your sort of work? It is used by many large-ish projects, so it would be surprising but not unrealistic to have scalability issues after a few million commits - Hooks _are_ supported by Subversion, Git and Hg (others too) - Checkout speed (and `export' speed) is pretty fast in Git and Hg. Subversion is a bit slower, but still usable. Changeset support is a nice feature, because it doesn't matter if your `export' run takes 1.5 minutes instead of 20 seconds. When a given changeset is exported in any of svn/git/hg you _never_ get a mix of file revisions from changesets ${FOO} ... ${FOO+j} for some arbitrarily random value of 'j', because 'j+k' commits happened in the mean time. Before you _do_ embark on the journey of using a VCS for storing a bunch of files, it would be nice to stop for a moment and consider if you need one. If you do, there _are_ options, and they are definitely not limited to the three systems mentioned so far. HTH, Giorgos From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 22 00:57:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E5F106566C for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:57:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F0B8FC1E for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:57:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64E082845A for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:57:53 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (tarsier.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DE6EBBFFB; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:57:52 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tXf5pNGoWGbo; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:57:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (71.5.7.139.ptr.us.xo.net [71.5.7.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC7AAEB572B; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:57:45 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to: x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rwS4LLpswS+fl7ZLk3wEj5irmdxghRXT3xz6KcERD5+LkduKSDMJOS4IN0y3ii4Hk 6mEJ03U5fFvoi4rWw6kZw== Message-ID: <47E45984.3080907@delphij.net> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:57:40 -0700 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080312) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <47E4405E.2080609@delphij.net> <874pazpqjq.fsf@kobe.laptop> In-Reply-To: <874pazpqjq.fsf@kobe.laptop> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, d@delphij.net Subject: Re: Some versioned storage program? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:57:56 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:10:22 -0700, Xin LI wrote: >> Hi, folks, >> >> I'm looking for some versioned storage program that can fulfill the >> following requirements: >> >> - Open source/Free Software that can run on FreeBSD, or not far >> (i.e. on other POSIX OS) >> - Support of atomic commit/rollback. >> - Fast checkin time (At least, when added/changed files are explicitly >> specified). >> - Fast update time (i.e. something like 'cvsup -s' that makes it >> possible to trust bookkeeping file rather than stat'ing every files) >> - Scalable for a large number of files, directories and revisions. Say, >> it is not acceptable for it to store a zillion of revisions as >> individual files within one directory. >> - Ideally it can support some sort of "hook" functions upon commit so >> that changes can be notified in some way such as e-mail. >> - Ideally it can support fast export of a snapshot for HEAD and >> "nearby" revision like HEAD - 1, etc. >> >> I think what I need is some SCM software like subversion or hg, but I do >> not know if there is some superior stuff that matches these requirements >> better. Any other suggestions? > > Before you start using Hg, Git or Subversion it may be worth > experimenting a bit with them. My apologies if you _have_ already and > the previous sentence sounds patronising. All I'm saying is that they > all have a fair share of good, not so good, or even bad aspects. So it > would be nice to have tried them all a bit and pick the one that seems > like the best fit for the job at hand :) Ah... Ok I think I should have mentioned the purpose of the system. It is supposed to be used in a CMS system, and the storage program will be used as one auxiliary backend where rendered pages are being stored. > To provide a few starting points: > > - Subversion, Git and Hg, all run on FreeBSD > - They support 'changesets' as the basic model of storing commits > - Commit speed varies a bit. For locally stored 'workspaces', Git and > Hg seem to be more or less equally fast, with Subversion being a close > second > - Update times tend to vary a bit too. Hg and Git will blow Subversion > away on locally stored repositories, but they might suck a bit on NFS > workspaces > - Storing individual revisions as 'a zillion directory entries in a > single tree' seem to point at Subversion. Have you already tried it, > and found that it doesn't scale for your sort of work? It is used by > many large-ish projects, so it would be surprising but not unrealistic > to have scalability issues after a few million commits > - Hooks _are_ supported by Subversion, Git and Hg (others too) > - Checkout speed (and `export' speed) is pretty fast in Git and Hg. > Subversion is a bit slower, but still usable. Changeset support is a > nice feature, because it doesn't matter if your `export' run takes 1.5 > minutes instead of 20 seconds. When a given changeset is exported in > any of svn/git/hg you _never_ get a mix of file revisions from > changesets ${FOO} ... ${FOO+j} for some arbitrarily random value of > 'j', because 'j+k' commits happened in the mean time. > > Before you _do_ embark on the journey of using a VCS for storing a bunch > of files, it would be nice to stop for a moment and consider if you need > one. If you do, there _are_ options, and they are definitely not > limited to the three systems mentioned so far. Thanks for all these information. I have tried svn and hg but neither is "just fit" and both have good stuff and drawbacks. I have even tried to use cvsup/cvs in a small system when I was in university and it served them well for many years, however I think it would not work well for larger systems. For now I am more inclined to use hg (if not using some home grown system as this is not exactly source code version management and a lot of complexity can be thus just skipped) but I think I need to find out how well it would work with 'pull+update' on large repositories, the largest hg repository I am aware of right now, is less than 1GB and the potential size of the repository I would use will be larger than that and grow from time to time. I think it's a good point that speed would vary when the repository is being stored locally (git and hg) and remotely (svn), also speed of synchronization between several hosts would be important as well. Cheers, -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 22 01:11:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A44106566C for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:11:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Received: from kientzle.com (h-66-166-149-50.snvacaid.covad.net [66.166.149.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AC48FC15 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:11:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.0.0.128] (p54.kientzle.com [66.166.149.54]) by kientzle.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m2M1Aupb058433; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <47E45CA0.5000705@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:10:56 -0700 From: Tim Kientzle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20060422 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: d@delphij.net References: <47E4405E.2080609@delphij.net> <874pazpqjq.fsf@kobe.laptop> <47E45984.3080907@delphij.net> In-Reply-To: <47E45984.3080907@delphij.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some versioned storage program? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:11:16 -0000 Xin LI wrote: > Ah... Ok I think I should have mentioned the purpose of the system. It > is supposed to be used in a CMS system, and the storage program will be > used as one auxiliary backend where rendered pages are being stored. I've considered using SVN+Apache behind one or more Squid caches for serving pages: * Easy remote update (via SVN command-line or other tools; TortoiseSVN even makes manual updates easy for most Windows users). * Easy tracking and rollback. * No need to mess with explicit "export" processes; simply committing the change to SVN makes it available. Not sure if this suits your needs or not, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there. Cheers, Tim Kientzle From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 22 04:12:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8246A106566B for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:12:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (cain.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8758FC1B for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from inchoate.gsoft.com.au (ppp121-45-145-12.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net [121.45.145.12]) (authenticated bits=0) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2M4CRgq019018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:42:28 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, stef@memberwebs.com Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:37:17 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> In-Reply-To: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart12565624.rhC4FBC7UD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200803220937.33552.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -0.906 () BAYES_00,DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,RDNS_DYNAMIC X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 203.31.81.10 Cc: Subject: Re: Vital Patches for ataraid with Intel Matrix RAID (ICH7) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:12:34 -0000 --nextPart12565624.rhC4FBC7UD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Stef Walter wrote: > Don't duplicate the RAID amoeba style if you boot with a drive > present that was detached from a RAID. This can happen if you manage > to get past the above panic problem. You'll end up with two devices > like ar0 and ar1. This can be a major mess if ar1 was already > contained active file systems. I have seen this bug in other ATA RAID implementations (VIA & Promise)=20 too. From what I can tell this part of your patch is general to all ATA=20 RAID arrays, right? I can be bad even with just ar0 - you can end up with ar0 & ar1 after a=20 boot where ar0 is stale, it's awesome fun to debug :( =2D-=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C --nextPart12565624.rhC4FBC7UD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBH5D+15ZPcIHs/zowRAkysAKCDdwSxI3WSSOqY8FHpNmiqDQnXPQCeML30 O6V96hMxXzcGm9tW/TrU4WE= =XTc5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart12565624.rhC4FBC7UD-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 22 05:22:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295E3106566C for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 05:22:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stef-list@memberwebs.com) Received: from mx.npubs.com (mail.zoneseven.net [209.66.100.224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267058FC21 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 05:22:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stef-list@memberwebs.com) Received: from mx.npubs.com (avhost [209.66.100.194]) by mx.npubs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17C894C891; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:58:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from northstar-srv2 (unknown [172.27.2.11]) by mx.npubs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F8D94C804; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:58:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Stef Walter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor References: <20080320131638.7E66B94C853@mx.npubs.com> <200803220937.33552.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20080322045846.58F8D94C804@mx.npubs.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:58:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vital Patches for ataraid with Intel Matrix RAID (ICH7) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stef@memberwebs.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 05:22:44 -0000 Daniel O'Connor wrote: > I have seen this bug in other ATA RAID implementations (VIA & Promise) > too. From what I can tell this part of your patch is general to all ATA > RAID arrays, right? Yes, a small part. The part that will write out the RAID information (thus updating the generation) whenever the status changes, regardless of whether that change takes place when the machine is off or not. Without testing, I can't be sure whether this solves the problem on other ataraid devices. Cheers, Stef Walter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 22 15:20:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925BB1065672 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:20:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1951F8FC47 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:20:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2MFK8MB059295; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:20:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m2MFK7TM059293; Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:20:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <200803221520.m2MFK7TM059293@lurza.secnetix.de> To: imp@bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:20:07 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <20080321.103310.-1301412573.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:20:09 +0100 (CET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vkernel & GSoC, some questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:20:13 -0000 M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <200803191633.m2JGXuBt088272@lurza.secnetix.de> > Oliver Fromme writes: > : The vkernel feature has certainly benefits, e.g. the fact > : that you can attach to it with standard gdb and use the > : familiar debugging facilities, which can attract more > > Can't you say qemu -s and attach gdb to that port as well? Good point. According to the manpage it would work, but I've never tried it myself. (I'm rather careful with the qemu manpage because it also contains a few things that only work on Linux.) For loader work (i.e. non-kernel), the good old printf debugging was sufficient for me so far. :) (Or maybe I was just lucky that my bugs were easy enough to fix, so that I didn't need other debugging facilities. I'll certainly keep qemu -s in mind.) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead.