From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 27 05:43:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64711065676 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 05:43:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saifi.khan@datasynergy.org) Received: from s219.sureserver.com (s219.sureserver.com [203.194.200.31]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C258FC1B for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 05:43:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 1280 invoked by uid 1002); 27 Sep 2009 05:43:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.10.10.9?) (saifi.khan@datasynergy.org@59.92.160.228) by s219.sureserver.com with ESMTPA; 27 Sep 2009 05:43:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:10:55 +0530 (IST) From: Saifi Khan X-X-Sender: saifi@freebsd To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Marius_N=FCnnerich?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 05:43:04 -0000 On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Marius N?nnerich wrote: > On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 08:57, Saifi Khan wrote: > > Hi all: > > > > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed > > that there is: > > . no SAP for FreeBSD > > . no DB2 for FreeBSD > > . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD > > . no Informix for FreeBSD > > > > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise > > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. > > What could be reason for this ? > > Same answer as last time: Please ask the respective vendors and report back. > This cannot be accidental. So this time, i've taken a two-pronged approach. 1. checking information on vendor sites and with contacts. 2. close analysis of discussions on freebsd-hackers during 2003-2005 time frame. thanks Saifi. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 27 19:54:29 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B65D1065672 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:54:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f222.google.com (mail-fx0-f222.google.com [209.85.220.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABE08FC13 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:54:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm22 with SMTP id 22so3553688fxm.36 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:54:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=78DPiPZ6TQIB7btRdz0P6Hw3vaHFG08TZ9lMrCueqvg=; b=l+DVqPzNgKwQocTWTUgkpfF/XJCTzzOTYlr3EQzbUer4e8h5ZFnc+eFydlG5xx/op0 DUqVvyWdmozHLrYam7QvVw6edvopW9dHHgExyy/x3wrgVltGRjJ4umZjphoSXZUPbFeU ZQNB6XSnAE4YmVuix9mfEknmxH8TXVxehCHTQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HJKm8j3ixTlVLNUf5+4U9+PtyMkucfVu4hPACD9YtBkCx3r1/R0P7VMSVDz0s8f83h ER2wErHqzHQmwPtsQzCdj2Xu8yghYslpNkvuGMeraLTeWi5lBq6B3BzzQwPWvGWkDQ+j 2mf+pjp2tcMZewfMn1xnitey/QE3pO7Q0B8r4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.20 with SMTP id j20mr2296114bkd.57.1254079570119; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:26:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <200909241735.n8OHZMVM099476@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Chris Rees Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:25:50 +0100 Message-ID: To: Saifi Khan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: utisoft@gmail.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:54:29 -0000 2009/9/25 Saifi Khan : > On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >> > > > i noticed that there is no Oracle available for FreeBSD >> > > > http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/index.= html >> > > > >> > > > What could be the reason for that ? >> > > >> > > Best ask direct of commercial application vendor Oracle. >> > > IE wave money under Oracle's nose & ask to purchase what you want. >> > > >> > > If Oracle think there's enough profit in it, there's many BSD >> > > consultants eg http://berklix.com/consultants/ willing to work. >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Julian >> > > -- >> > >> > i was wondering if there is any technical reason behind this ? >> >> Most unlikely. Ask Oracle & tell advocacy@ what you find out. >> I'd bet perceived market share & demand as ever, ie Money. >> > > Hi Julian: > > Here is the response on the Oracle forum thread to my posting, > > > """ > FreeBSD is a kernel not used in any extant operating system with > the sole exception being Apple's Mac OSX so you are heading, > full speed ahead, toward disappointment. And this is where he gives away that he knows nothing about it. In the first sentence, he shows that he thinks that Mac OS X uses the FreeBSD kernel. (Which is wrong, in case you were wondering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) ) > FreeBSD handles many > things very differently from the UNIX System 5 standard so you > can not just kludge your way into this. What? > > What fascinates me about your request is why you care. FreeBSD > is going nowhere at a staggeringly fast pace. And to the same > place as went Oracle Database version 8.0. Obscurity. What? > > Install Oracle's Enterprise Linux and you will have a real > operating system in less time than you've spent monitoring this > thead. And as an additional value it will support the Oracle > technology stack while you are still young enough to use it. > """ > > and > """ > IF you can match up the system calls, then you can 'make it > work'. > """ > > The relevant =A0links are > 1. =A0http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=3D952076&tstar= t=3D0 > 2. =A0http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=3D952076&tstar= t=3D0 > > The response seems to suggest that there is some feature used by > Oracle which is expected from a UNIX Sys 5 std and perhaps > FreeBSD does not support/have the syscall. > > Given the response, What is your analysis of the situation ? > > > thanks > Saifi. > This guy replying to your post was a troll, basically. Ignore him, and concentrate on real Oracle employees for sources. Of course, if this was an Oracle employee, then you really should think about using some different software.... Chris --=20 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 27 21:22:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299751065694 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:22:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.56]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37308FC16 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:22:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from OMTA01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.11]) by QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lwS81c0050EZKEL56x97Ln; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:09:07 +0000 Received: from comcast.net ([98.203.142.76]) by OMTA01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lx9c1c00E1f6R9u3Mx9dBm; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:09:38 +0000 Received: by comcast.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:09:35 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:09:35 -0700 From: Charlie Kester To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20090927210934.GA85077@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200909241735.n8OHZMVM099476@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5.20 X-Composer: VIM 7.2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:22:55 -0000 On Sun 27 Sep 2009 at 12:25:50 PDT Chris Rees wrote: >This guy replying to your post was a troll, basically. Ignore him, and Yep. It shows that some Linux fans are just as prone to creating FUD as their adversaries in the Windows world. I'd like to think the BSD community is better than that. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 27 22:29:10 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFD3106566C for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:29:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gedankezauberer@comcast.net) Received: from QMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466A38FC0C for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:29:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from OMTA03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by QMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lxRk1c0010b6N64A4yFzDY; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:15:59 +0000 Received: from zauberer.unix.freebsd.org ([76.112.93.25]) by OMTA03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lyFx1c0050Yq9Sc8PyFydd; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:15:58 +0000 Message-ID: <4ABFE303.8050104@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:11:15 -0400 From: Allen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081220) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200909241735.n8OHZMVM099476@fire.js.berklix.net> <20090927210934.GA85077@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20090927210934.GA85077@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:29:10 -0000 Charlie Kester wrote: > On Sun 27 Sep 2009 at 12:25:50 PDT Chris Rees wrote: >> This guy replying to your post was a troll, basically. Ignore him, and > > Yep. It shows that some Linux fans are just as prone to creating FUD as > their adversaries in the Windows world. > > I'd like to think the BSD community is better than that. I use Linux, I don't do this kind of thing because I use both. I have a machine with FreeBSD on it dual booting Windows 98 SE (So I can play Magic: The Gathering; Spells of the Ancients, and some other stuff) and then I have a Debian box, and another Debian machine dual booting with Windows XP, and my Laptop dual boots Slackware 13.0 and Windows XP, and then on my Wife's Laptop is Windows XP, and OpenSUSE. My FTP server PC runs Slackware 12.2. I use both Linux and BSD because I like both, and anyone who says Linux is better is sadly mistaken, they both are great :) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 02:55:42 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAA51065670; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mv@thebeastie.org) Received: from mail.jumbuck.com (p82.jumbuck.com [206.112.99.82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D588FC1C; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:55:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.jumbuck.com (mail.jumbuck.com [206.112.99.82]) by mail.jumbuck.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCBFDDC12B9; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:37:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ppp191-232.static.internode.on.net [59.167.191.232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jumbuck@jumbuck.com) by mail.jumbuck.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39524DDC12B5; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:37:27 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4AC02164.7040201@thebeastie.org> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:37:24 +1000 From: Michael Vince User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.1) Gecko/20090715 Thunderbird/3.0b3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Saifi Khan References: <200909241735.n8OHZMVM099476@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:55:42 -0000 On 25/09/2009 10:28 PM, Saifi Khan wrote: > On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > >>>>> i noticed that there is no Oracle available for FreeBSD >>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/index.html >>>>> >>>>> What could be the reason for that ? >>>>> >>>> Best ask direct of commercial application vendor Oracle. >>>> IE wave money under Oracle's nose& ask to purchase what you want. >>>> >>>> If Oracle think there's enough profit in it, there's many BSD >>>> consultants eg http://berklix.com/consultants/ willing to work. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Julian >>>> -- >>>> >>> i was wondering if there is any technical reason behind this ? >>> >> Most unlikely. Ask Oracle& tell advocacy@ what you find out. >> I'd bet perceived market share& demand as ever, ie Money. >> >> > Hi Julian: > > Here is the response on the Oracle forum thread to my posting, > > > """ > FreeBSD is a kernel not used in any extant operating system with > the sole exception being Apple's Mac OSX so you are heading, > The reality is that Oracle is meant to be a very expensive solution for companies that don't know what to do. This makes Red Hat etc an ideal contender for this situation as it promises full enterprise support. Whether it is the truth or if its even a good solution is completely irreverent to these 2 tech companies because at the end of the day they are just trying to make money and please the stock holders. We have bought the occasional Dell server with Enterprise Red Hat and found all sorts of weird little problems. My preferred story was the Perl that RHE came with was bleeding edge (for the time of release) which at first looked nice. But when I discovered my FreeBSD laptop could parse a 500meg log file 4 times faster then the quad core RHE Dell server I know something was wrong. It was just the version Perl that RHE decided to package up the distribution with. I ended up having to build a later version into /usr/local and everything was fine. But is this really a good solution? Was this worthy of the word enterprise? absolutely not, I mean its not a big deal to build a second Perl into /usr/local on RHE but FreeBSD ports seems like a far cleaner and professional solution if you ask me, just because its not point and click friendly shouldn't be some kind of excuse, to me its and clean and pure as I could dream. We hired a person directly from Oracle full time to build a new database project on Oracle. After it was all built and been using it for about 2 years I just thought it was a bit of a disgrace. Oracle is brittle, unreliable and expensive. We had FreeBSD+MySQL along side it the whole time and it was just so much more reliable and faster for the same amount of hardware. Oracle by packaged design is meant to encourage a comparatively massive amount of hardware investment compared to what could be achieved with MySQL and FreeBSD. I think it is just as much about masking its crap performance then any other argument. I think Oracle is a about of system of making money out of false beliefs, it takes full advantage of corporate companies conservative beliefs and is probably only the reasonable solution for at best 5% of the companies it lives at, its all a matter of opinion which would be argued more from how much money a set of individuals are making out of it over a better technical solution. Some how Oracle want people to believe that a few 100's thousand dollars for their software is vastly superior to any other DB in the world is just nonsense. There is not any other mass scale pieces of software that most company's need where there is some how a magically vastly superior solution. There is no single/few license $100,000 operating system, no single/few license $100,000 excel, no single/few license $100,000 web server. I guess what I am saying at the end of this is that if you can avoid Oracle that is great, I fully recommend you do. Just because you can buy MySQL Enterprise Server far more cheaply and install/deploy it far more easily on more different platforms isn't something to be suspicious about, its just a better software solution and I recommend you take full advantage of it while you still can. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 09:05:56 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD9B106566B for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:05:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-advocacy@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617748FC15 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:05:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1MsBvr-0007De-Cj for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:50:07 +0200 Received: from 93-141-69-233.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([93.141.69.233]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:50:07 +0200 Received: from ivoras by 93-141-69-233.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:50:07 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:49:36 +0200 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig953F4E31C9ECAD1A3479DF3A" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 93-141-69-233.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Sender: news Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:05:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig953F4E31C9ECAD1A3479DF3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saifi Khan wrote: > Hi all: >=20 > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed > that there is: > . no SAP for FreeBSD > . no DB2 for FreeBSD > . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD > . no Informix for FreeBSD=20 >=20 > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss.=20 > What could be reason for this ? An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. --------------enig953F4E31C9ECAD1A3479DF3A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkrAeKcACgkQldnAQVacBchANwCg9eTM5tok50EyjW0FZbJk3ehc xrwAn2fbWTgVLJnNTfBIiE+UOpIZYEEl =9ur0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig953F4E31C9ECAD1A3479DF3A-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 10:20:26 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CEC106568D for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:20:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tonyt@logyst.com) Received: from smtp.webfaction.com (mail6.webfaction.com [74.55.86.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07A68FC26 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:20:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pz0-f194.google.com (mail-pz0-f194.google.com [209.85.222.194]) by smtp.webfaction.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5C91C71B06; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:20:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: by pzk32 with SMTP id 32so2435753pzk.3 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:20:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.202.12 with SMTP id z12mr133388rvf.112.1254133223333; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:20:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:20:23 +1000 Message-ID: <22166b750909280320r3356c113l8d54e46279f2742f@mail.gmail.com> From: Tony Theodore To: Ivan Voras Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:20:26 -0000 2009/9/28 Ivan Voras > Saifi Khan wrote: > > Hi all: > > > > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed > > that there is: > > . no SAP for FreeBSD > > . no DB2 for FreeBSD > > . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD > > . no Informix for FreeBSD > > > > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise > > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. > > What could be reason for this ? > > An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes > it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. > > Which then leads the FreeBSD community to give those products a miss and use alternatives, or find ways of running them without vendor support, which further reduces demand. I guess from an advocacy perspective, it's hard to get enthused about this as the alternatives seem more attractive. It's not like hardware drivers that do constrain usage and development. Tony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 11:32:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E571065672 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saifi.khan@datasynergy.org) Received: from s219.sureserver.com (s219.sureserver.com [203.194.200.31]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222DC8FC17 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:32:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 4689 invoked by uid 1002); 28 Sep 2009 11:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.10.10.9?) (saifi.khan@datasynergy.org@59.92.166.14) by s219.sureserver.com with ESMTPA; 28 Sep 2009 11:32:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:00:37 +0530 (IST) From: Saifi Khan X-X-Sender: saifi@freebsd To: Ivan Voras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:32:30 -0000 On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Ivan Voras wrote: > Saifi Khan wrote: > > Hi all: > > > > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed > > that there is: > > . no SAP for FreeBSD > > . no DB2 for FreeBSD > > . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD > > . no Informix for FreeBSD > > > > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise > > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. > > What could be reason for this ? > > An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes > it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. > Thanks for providing the perspective on the issue. Here is a rather straight query, "how do we grow the userbase" ? thanks Saifi. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 12:07:26 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D041065693 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:07:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saifi.khan@datasynergy.org) Received: from s219.sureserver.com (s219.sureserver.com [203.194.200.31]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AACA8FC17 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 3486 invoked by uid 1002); 28 Sep 2009 12:07:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.10.10.9?) (saifi.khan@datasynergy.org@59.92.166.14) by s219.sureserver.com with ESMTPA; 28 Sep 2009 12:07:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:35:30 +0530 (IST) From: Saifi Khan X-X-Sender: saifi@freebsd To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: 2008 EuroBSDCon PDF and Audio ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:07:26 -0000 Hi: Every year the EuroBSDCon has a new host site and the slides and audio/video seem to go missing after a while. i'm trying to locate the stuff in 2009, about the 2008 EuroBSDCon talks page at http://2008.eurobsdcon.org/talks.html Does anybody know how the various slides and audio/video can be retrieved ? Please excuse me as i am a newbie and was wondering if there is a technical reason for not having the slides and media stuff consolidated at a single site ? Thanks in advance. thanks Saifi. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 12:43:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0B31065676 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:43:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF358FC1D for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:43:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from park.js.berklix.net (p549A65C9.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.101.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n8SChVIn049847; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:43:32 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by park.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n8SChHO9003321; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:43:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8SCjlcj065968; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:45:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200909281245.n8SCjlcj065968@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Saifi Khan From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:00:37 +0530." Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:45:47 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:43:47 -0000 > Thanks for providing the perspective on the issue. > > Here is a rather straight query, "how do we grow the userbase" ? IMO enough noise. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. http://berklix.com/free/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 12:53:12 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5D91065696 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:53:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DD78FC08 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:53:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from park.js.berklix.net (p549A65C9.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.101.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n8SCr09G049978; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:53:00 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by park.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n8SCqnAR003409; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:52:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8SCtK8V066238; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:55:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200909281255.n8SCtK8V066238@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Saifi Khan From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:35:30 +0530." Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:55:20 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2008 EuroBSDCon PDF and Audio ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:53:12 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Saifi Khan > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:35:30 +0530 (IST) > Message-id: Saifi Khan wrote: > Hi: > > Every year the EuroBSDCon has a new host site and the slides and > audio/video seem to go missing after a while. > > i'm trying to locate the stuff in 2009, about the 2008 EuroBSDCon > talks page at http://2008.eurobsdcon.org/talks.html > > Does anybody know how the various slides and audio/video can be > retrieved ? > > Please excuse me as i am a newbie and was wondering if there is > a technical reason for not having the slides and media stuff > consolidated at a single site ? [I believe I know the answer to that, but] ... I don't see it does any good for you to ask & get answers on that question via advocay@, 'cos that's not where those responsible could best be Direct contacted to improve things. Please think where you should first direct address your many questions. Dont dump all to advocacy@freebsd.org. eg in this case use the whois command for the domain name @eurobsdcon.org, & First mail there, or to postmaster@eurobsdcon.org or webmaster@eurobsdcon.org Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. http://berklix.com/free/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 13:01:46 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D234810656A3 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:01:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from khatfield@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f192.google.com (mail-px0-f192.google.com [209.85.216.192]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EC58FC14 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi30 with SMTP id 30so5640581pxi.7 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:01:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WuKw6NQ0Trk3RbU76FRqKOQvSxrylu0Pjnma6KvBUl4=; b=gtJlvMBSMLXf0mZfkY2B8aSv31+CoOZs0pl6dMpZ9KbDJZwPGEvDvIMHvl/xFp9fnL v2jLTPP6Gm68gZF+evb375rfAPe4WkNS+l91YCx3Zp17BfEs14F4kF3vCORgUQO0Zzaa 4+HkWR3GkYBs2mtVvPkxMC1Jms1VQAp70VJ9Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nX8IQ5hHYjF7IEkp7vMzgJcBM/osr3RepGvWdSBKUp1InjpK2eRdQ/WXZ2Ndx6gw2+ 2apckRNp7TNZeIo1sZ74TnsWCYo5Jh0GRDu6FtPVvSAdhfLQkLLga1Ttz73YOxNG4hU3 VeFghx9uksaryqifsd2ppuJ56vdAAAMEGQtD8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.18.15 with SMTP id v15mr121620rvi.297.1254141504677; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:38:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090928120004.6EAF710656B7@hub.freebsd.org> References: <20090928120004.6EAF710656B7@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:38:24 -0500 Message-ID: <44843e1b0909280538x217be446q17115d9169c4270c@mail.gmail.com> From: Kevin Hatfield To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 295, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:01:46 -0000 The simplest most effective way to grow the FreeBSD userbase is indemnification. Large companies that purchase RHEL/SuSE, etc. It's not because they "don't know what they're doing" as someone mentioned above. Most of the large Enterprise RHEL/SUSE contracts come down to indemnification with support being a bonus. Bottom line is that large companies purchase commercial support for three reasons, listed higher priority to lower: 1) Indemnification 2) Support 3) Someone responsible at the end of the day which will provide some sort of SLA. Companies don't want to be sued, they want to be able to get support when needed, and they need someone for the stakeholders to blame if a critical vulnerability is rampant within the business. Open source as a whole has one big issue which is they normally do not have the funds for a legal battle. They also have no *real* responsibility to fix issues. Don't take those things to offense because I'm a huge fan of FreeBSD. Run it on all of my personal business servers. Although, my job at the Enterprise has the requirements stated above. Of course, everyone knows SUSE/RHEL neither really deserve the "status" they have achieved in the Enterprise environment. It all comes down to survival and covering your tail. Just my 2 cents... On 9/28/09, freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org wrote: > Send freebsd-advocacy mailing list submissions to > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of freebsd-advocacy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? (Chris Rees) > 2. Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? (Charlie Kester) > 3. Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? (Allen) > 4. Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? (Michael Vince) > 5. Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? (Ivan Voras) > 6. Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? (Tony Theodore) > 7. Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? (Saifi Khan) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:25:50 +0100 > From: Chris Rees > Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? > To: Saifi Khan > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" > , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > > 2009/9/25 Saifi Khan : >> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> >>> > > > i noticed that there is no Oracle available for FreeBSD >>> > > > http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/index= .html >>> > > > >>> > > > What could be the reason for that ? >>> > > >>> > > Best ask direct of commercial application vendor Oracle. >>> > > IE wave money under Oracle's nose & ask to purchase what you want. >>> > > >>> > > If Oracle think there's enough profit in it, there's many BSD >>> > > consultants eg http://berklix.com/consultants/ willing to work. >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > Julian >>> > > -- >>> > >>> > i was wondering if there is any technical reason behind this ? >>> >>> Most unlikely. Ask Oracle & tell advocacy@ what you find out. >>> I'd bet perceived market share & demand as ever, ie Money. >>> >> >> Hi Julian: >> >> Here is the response on the Oracle forum thread to my posting, >> >> >> """ >> FreeBSD is a kernel not used in any extant operating system with >> the sole exception being Apple's Mac OSX so you are heading, >> full speed ahead, toward disappointment. > > And this is where he gives away that he knows nothing about it. In the > first sentence, he shows that he thinks that Mac OS X uses the FreeBSD > kernel. (Which is wrong, in case you were wondering > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) ) > >> FreeBSD handles many >> things very differently from the UNIX System 5 standard so you >> can not just kludge your way into this. > > What? > >> >> What fascinates me about your request is why you care. FreeBSD >> is going nowhere at a staggeringly fast pace. And to the same >> place as went Oracle Database version 8.0. Obscurity. > > What? > >> >> Install Oracle's Enterprise Linux and you will have a real >> operating system in less time than you've spent monitoring this >> thead. And as an additional value it will support the Oracle >> technology stack while you are still young enough to use it. >> """ >> >> and >> """ >> IF you can match up the system calls, then you can 'make it >> work'. >> """ >> >> The relevant =A0links are >> 1. =A0http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=3D952076&tsta= rt=3D0 >> 2. =A0http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=3D952076&tsta= rt=3D0 >> >> The response seems to suggest that there is some feature used by >> Oracle which is expected from a UNIX Sys 5 std and perhaps >> FreeBSD does not support/have the syscall. >> >> Given the response, What is your analysis of the situation ? >> >> >> thanks >> Saifi. >> > > > This guy replying to your post was a troll, basically. Ignore him, and > concentrate on real Oracle employees for sources. Of course, if this > was an Oracle employee, then you really should think about using some > different software.... > > Chris > > -- > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:09:35 -0700 > From: Charlie Kester > Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20090927210934.GA85077@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed > > On Sun 27 Sep 2009 at 12:25:50 PDT Chris Rees wrote: >>This guy replying to your post was a troll, basically. Ignore him, and > > Yep. It shows that some Linux fans are just as prone to creating FUD as > their adversaries in the Windows world. > > I'd like to think the BSD community is better than that. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:11:15 -0400 > From: Allen > Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <4ABFE303.8050104@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed > > Charlie Kester wrote: >> On Sun 27 Sep 2009 at 12:25:50 PDT Chris Rees wrote: >>> This guy replying to your post was a troll, basically. Ignore him, and >> >> Yep. It shows that some Linux fans are just as prone to creating FUD as >> their adversaries in the Windows world. >> >> I'd like to think the BSD community is better than that. > > I use Linux, I don't do this kind of thing because I use both. I have a > machine with FreeBSD on it dual booting Windows 98 SE (So I can play > Magic: The Gathering; Spells of the Ancients, and some other stuff) and > then I have a Debian box, and another Debian machine dual booting with > Windows XP, and my Laptop dual boots Slackware 13.0 and Windows XP, and > then on my Wife's Laptop is Windows XP, and OpenSUSE. My FTP server PC > runs Slackware 12.2. I use both Linux and BSD because I like both, and > anyone who says Linux is better is sadly mistaken, they both are great :) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:37:24 +1000 > From: Michael Vince > Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? > To: Saifi Khan > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" > , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <4AC02164.7040201@thebeastie.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed > > On 25/09/2009 10:28 PM, Saifi Khan wrote: >> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> >> >>>>>> i noticed that there is no Oracle available for FreeBSD >>>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/index.ht= ml >>>>>> >>>>>> What could be the reason for that ? >>>>>> >>>>> Best ask direct of commercial application vendor Oracle. >>>>> IE wave money under Oracle's nose& ask to purchase what you want. >>>>> >>>>> If Oracle think there's enough profit in it, there's many BSD >>>>> consultants eg http://berklix.com/consultants/ willing to work. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Julian >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>> i was wondering if there is any technical reason behind this ? >>>> >>> Most unlikely. Ask Oracle& tell advocacy@ what you find out. >>> I'd bet perceived market share& demand as ever, ie Money. >>> >>> >> Hi Julian: >> >> Here is the response on the Oracle forum thread to my posting, >> >> >> """ >> FreeBSD is a kernel not used in any extant operating system with >> the sole exception being Apple's Mac OSX so you are heading, >> > The reality is that Oracle is meant to be a very expensive solution for > companies that don't know what to do. This makes Red Hat etc an ideal > contender for this situation as it promises full enterprise support. > Whether it is the truth or if its even a good solution is completely > irreverent to these 2 tech companies because at the end of the day they > are just trying to make money and please the stock holders. > > We have bought the occasional Dell server with Enterprise Red Hat and > found all sorts of weird little problems. My preferred story was the > Perl that RHE came with was bleeding edge (for the time of release) > which at first looked nice. But when I discovered my FreeBSD laptop > could parse a 500meg log file 4 times faster then the quad core RHE Dell > server I know something was wrong. It was just the version Perl that RHE > decided to package up the distribution with. I ended up having to build > a later version into /usr/local and everything was fine. But is this > really a good solution? Was this worthy of the word enterprise? > absolutely not, I mean its not a big deal to build a second Perl into > /usr/local on RHE but FreeBSD ports seems like a far cleaner and > professional solution if you ask me, just because its not point and > click friendly shouldn't be some kind of excuse, to me its and clean and > pure as I could dream. > > We hired a person directly from Oracle full time to build a new database > project on Oracle. After it was all built and been using it for about 2 > years I just thought it was a bit of a disgrace. Oracle is brittle, > unreliable and expensive. We had FreeBSD+MySQL along side it the whole > time and it was just so much more reliable and faster for the same > amount of hardware. > Oracle by packaged design is meant to encourage a comparatively massive > amount of hardware investment compared to what could be achieved with > MySQL and FreeBSD. I think it is just as much about masking its crap > performance then any other argument. > > I think Oracle is a about of system of making money out of false > beliefs, it takes full advantage of corporate companies conservative > beliefs and is probably only the reasonable solution for at best 5% of > the companies it lives at, its all a matter of opinion which would be > argued more from how much money a set of individuals are making out of > it over a better technical solution. > Some how Oracle want people to believe that a few 100's thousand dollars > for their software is vastly superior to any other DB in the world is > just nonsense. > There is not any other mass scale pieces of software that most company's > need where there is some how a magically vastly superior solution. There > is no single/few license $100,000 operating system, no single/few > license $100,000 excel, no single/few license $100,000 web server. > > I guess what I am saying at the end of this is that if you can avoid > Oracle that is great, I fully recommend you do. > > Just because you can buy MySQL Enterprise Server far more cheaply and > install/deploy it far more easily on more different platforms isn't > something to be suspicious about, its just a better software solution > and I recommend you take full advantage of it while you still can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:49:36 +0200 > From: Ivan Voras > Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > > Saifi Khan wrote: >> Hi all: >> >> In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed >> that there is: >> . no SAP for FreeBSD >> . no DB2 for FreeBSD >> . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD >> . no Informix for FreeBSD >> >> Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise >> database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. >> What could be reason for this ? > > An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes > it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 259 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20090928/= 986fcfbf/signature-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:20:23 +1000 > From: Tony Theodore > Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? > To: Ivan Voras > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > <22166b750909280320r3356c113l8d54e46279f2742f@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > > 2009/9/28 Ivan Voras > >> Saifi Khan wrote: >> > Hi all: >> > >> > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed >> > that there is: >> > . no SAP for FreeBSD >> > . no DB2 for FreeBSD >> > . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD >> > . no Informix for FreeBSD >> > >> > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise >> > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. >> > What could be reason for this ? >> >> An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes >> it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. >> >> Which then leads the FreeBSD community to give those products a miss and > use alternatives, or find ways of running them without vendor support, wh= ich > further reduces demand. > > I guess from an advocacy perspective, it's hard to get enthused about thi= s > as the alternatives seem more attractive. It's not like hardware drivers > that do constrain usage and development. > > Tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:00:37 +0530 (IST) > From: Saifi Khan > Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? > To: Ivan Voras > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII > > On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Ivan Voras wrote: > >> Saifi Khan wrote: >> > Hi all: >> > >> > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed >> > that there is: >> > . no SAP for FreeBSD >> > . no DB2 for FreeBSD >> > . no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD >> > . no Informix for FreeBSD >> > >> > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise >> > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. >> > What could be reason for this ? >> >> An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes >> it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. >> > > Thanks for providing the perspective on the issue. > > Here is a rather straight query, "how do we grow the userbase" ? > > > thanks > Saifi. > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" > > > End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 295, Issue 1 > ************************************************ > --=20 Sent from my mobile device From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 13:19:11 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C70E106566C for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:19:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f209.google.com (mail-ew0-f209.google.com [209.85.219.209]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FE98FC16 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:19:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so2886998ewy.36 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:19:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bVEpnnDWFoiMoILAZginBPvztseMObsTkkO9+/lzKDE=; b=CAOrCP/A4uouPv8s6NIoxULzkZiC4moSETOHlcT60vWHtIILC/ldtFZhH3LcZxVgMH 925QRE/Xju9Q+Yc10TiqASgarDVvLOYfBkS43WfSw1vPKtwRz6rjRHX5/8Yuuj1CcBVx 4SJUsqvYgCxBZBtfxv0aZKP9mpi5yC5SBNVWo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=M95tjkNPe6+QEbdoFUGscHpuDS/QwbEj4iyGsdYb3W3zWzaLCIASg5Su0ezT41UPBT ujxlMeMfpQWGbHT+5Iunb+XDs7FqPheMrxRd3qcf75wfpNot/LKxA9asPuWkys4P41OO R1LcOyKagw6YNcbQ0s6b9Io25DGWcvCT5v41Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: ivoras@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.49.65 with SMTP id w43mr742927web.211.1254142162128; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:49:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ivan Voras Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:49:02 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 148e787b8e055b72 Message-ID: <9bbcef730909280549p4ecb4c1at8dca4b31cbbeeab5@mail.gmail.com> To: Saifi Khan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no SAP nor DB2 on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:19:11 -0000 2009/9/28 Saifi Khan : > On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Ivan Voras wrote: > >> Saifi Khan wrote: >> > Hi all: >> > >> > In continuation of my investigation of Oracle, i also noticed >> > that there is: >> > =C2=A0. no SAP for FreeBSD >> > =C2=A0. no DB2 for FreeBSD >> > =C2=A0. no Sybase ASE for FreeBSD >> > =C2=A0. no Informix for FreeBSD >> > >> > Discouing PostgreSql installations, effectively enterprise >> > database setups have given FreeBSD a miss. >> > What could be reason for this ? >> >> An obvious guess would be that the userbase is too small and that makes >> it unprofitable to support the products on FreeBSD. >> > > Thanks for providing the perspective on the issue. > > Here is a rather straight query, "how do we grow the userbase" ? Something like that is very tedious and hard, mostly because it's a chicken-and-the-end problem. Vendors will not develop products (and device drivers) for platforms with few users because it's unprofitable, and users will not use new platforms that have low vendor support. For a very pertinent example, see Linux - it has a vastly bigger user base and it's still largely unsupported by sw & hw vendors. There is no completely right "solution" for this - you can't even create a global survey of users that would possibly use a new platform if it were supported and submit it to vendors because the users are not well enough informed about it. One angle that would be interesting to play with vendors would be the BSD license - enabling them to create proprietary solutions - but apparently vendors are not that scared of the GPL. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 14:47:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7591065672 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:47:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrea@brancatelli.it) Received: from mela.raged.it (brancatelli.it [84.233.228.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831198FC23 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:47:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.193] (static-217-133-85-183.clienti.tiscali.it [217.133.85.183]) by mela.raged.it (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n8SEKaWe029591 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:20:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andrea@brancatelli.it) Message-ID: <4AC0C637.4010800@brancatelli.it> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:20:39 +0200 From: Andrea Brancatelli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; it; rv:1.9.1.1) Gecko/20090715 Thunderbird/3.0b3 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20090928120004.6EAF710656B7@hub.freebsd.org> <44843e1b0909280538x217be446q17115d9169c4270c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <44843e1b0909280538x217be446q17115d9169c4270c@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.94/9843/Mon Sep 28 04:23:36 2009 on mela.raged.it X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_HEADERS autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on mela.raged.it Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 295, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:47:04 -0000 Il 28/09/2009 14.38, Kevin Hatfield ha scritto: > The simplest most effective way to grow the FreeBSD userbase is > indemnification. Large companies that purchase RHEL/SuSE, etc. It's > not because they "don't know what they're doing" as someone mentioned > above. Most of the large Enterprise RHEL/SUSE contracts come down to > indemnification with support being a bonus. > > I strongly agree and also share my personal experience in deploying a massive system (3600 distributed boxes) in which Red Hat was adopted and FreeBSD (even if the project would actually work better under FreeBSD) just becase "if we run out of ideas we can always call red hat italy". This is a huge problem..... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 16:37:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2CA1065692 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:37:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5EC8FC14 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:37:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 4so524239eyf.3 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:37:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=JWD1N6b4rqRUdJ2trAo3QbdXlhoWrbxeSPJDd4sJ+pQ=; b=k5Jx3iUFlSereGvJ44smq2hg9uY+fJ9YXwa2pKUJSux9G3uYRocz4OYiDHzjT31+Jz WRt/xCU4UxxQp+PFcakXC4yEyb/USxA8NG2qYkKRmN8j2N+V9A/A67SZDKH3nGg0Bl5M +8enc/7IEstKac3xPK73hwL9/dNBcJf6pgsFw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=leVgs8HIPfRHfSYvtwigjCAFb3D8qF2qA4buwBrk5feHvhS2ZvQOLNzNmThzMKMUTX uzytiFatNuJLzm1TgcR9vmBMdTKv28s6D+hPz9LHEqwMx3KizFzjbXgk0N2YsiSqPbeU 4Cvp5tFK2DTDhli30RHPHsWeVKkR7Z4PtwwhQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.45.77 with SMTP id o55mr820960web.47.1254154104211; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:08:24 -0500 Message-ID: From: Don Wilde To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:37:28 -0000 http://www.engineeringjobfuture.com/articles/leverage/open-source-software -- -- Don Wilde " Engineering the Future " http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 16:41:59 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4981065695 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:41:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rejden@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08EE8FC22 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:41:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so3302621bwz.43 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:41:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:reply-to:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=kvErMpchl878JZ1TK1yufthCZd86QAmVyKBJF3Du8eA=; b=xBoTTv00cSanMhJ14mDv7do5tEo6K+H97ZExy9yRABA5rJvifPtmW3Sd4nDvAO17mY 3a4KW4q7/wt2XbpNffnSvgcEoJiCX7MUuUTA2ORguPk3mOuqwmIj4J2TlnytADyZtwlj e5kvTYEUFmXVdbTRYwRmtqfruvBjyXY55Bvjw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:reply-to:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; b=j8RTAxWBA1wXzD59h1MDu83uIUqmzn+TTLEhQrKKwjgzG9SHJBNGzQp8AuJSi1Oy/L Mh3bmXBR3zmDBp/mdwaejzZw8CWWLGwSNQid22pKIjbwARA8vqs5XMqzWuBvjEJ6Q+4x srxoD2z6KySO93/5gFzBZefTfk2goRpBqjoGQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rejden@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.143.151 with SMTP id v23mr3159044bku.169.1254154430836; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:13:50 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5f04e78cc627a761 Message-ID: <541b7a870909280913t40b1f545o10b051817201f14@mail.gmail.com> From: Jan Husar To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: FreeBSD 8.0 vs. Ubuntu 9.10 Benchmarks (also fbsd 7.2) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: jan.husar@skosi.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:41:59 -0000 check it out http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=freebsd8_ubuntu910&num=1 Jan -- ----------------------------------- | Jan Husar | | doing what matters | http://www.earthcause.org | http://www.skosi.org Open Source mission to Kosovo and eastern balcans http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=125834024563 Open Source mission to save Galapagos Islands http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43708354604 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 17:06:42 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2D5106566C for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:06:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1448FC15 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from park.js.berklix.net (p549A7054.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.112.84]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n8SH6dNt054057; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:06:39 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by park.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n8SH6Tn9005329; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8SH8xsG070888; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:09:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> To: dwilde1@gmail.com From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:08:24 CDT." Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:08:59 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:06:42 -0000 Hi, > From: Don Wilde Don Wilde wrote: > http://www.engineeringjobfuture.com/articles/leverage/open-source-software Article contains "The lawsuit was bitterly contested, but finally resolved. Everything developed before 1970 was declared by a judge to be open forever more, and everything developed after that was AT&T's property." False. I stopped reading at that point, after all, the journalist was probably just winging it, after a few emails to people who read the activity at the time (inc many of us doubtless). The people who know Most about the UCB Lite agreement, won't speak much anyway - they signed non disclosures. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. http://berklix.com/free/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 17:16:07 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B551065676 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:16:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f209.google.com (mail-ew0-f209.google.com [209.85.219.209]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E291D8FC18 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so3114755ewy.36 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:16:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UCEw93qWfEi9kPjISv63+hzw2BKS62igkVOWbeaxF+Q=; b=Zqi4fmxf/nbknC9Kw9FfEicDq5lxiwTnyFu1PZPHfq0ZXUQaFkRSqTMVytHG0eC1GU 4qF12RCD4ckCH6y1W7eMKwuiM8PY1mnW9Yh8XyHGI0pDy8VC31XIAX+syy8Os4IbUEZu 4ErsbPuYmURcX5oQCouun96yRBZ9Sf78mwD0Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=K3okhC4Mmp53f8vDGgS8Z6Xt/2bZ02B43NM7S7QQKUjHDpwIvV0+HqvTriP1LIC+x1 fRX+0PZePnc16qo16ETWGLAiLBIFdJBSPc2ejwcl3+y33As2akTRsUj1+DDjXAiYwgTU YvbhPlZx+UsE9OLYXPzupN57kvGm5o3H2CAPg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.86.203 with SMTP id w53mr874719wee.58.1254158165592; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:16:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:16:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Don Wilde To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:16:07 -0000 What is incorrect, Julian? I interviewed both Kirk McK and Berkeley's chief legal beagle several years ago. If I'm incorrect, I'd prefer to get it right. I even bought Kirk's video after a FBSD convention a long time back. He was drinking beer by the pitcher, so I'm sure he was more forthcoming than usual. I also was the one who orchestrated the Darwin press release when working as a stringer with Bob Bruce's WC-CDROM, so I do have a little history here. On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Hi, >> From: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Don Wilde > > Don Wilde wrote: >> http://www.engineeringjobfuture.com/articles/leverage/open-source-softwa= re > > Article contains > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"The lawsuit was bitterly contested, but finally resolved. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Everything developed before 1970 was declared by a judge > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to be open forever more, and everything developed after > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that was AT&T's property." > > False. I stopped reading at that point, after all, the journalist > was probably just winging it, after a few emails to people who read > the activity at the time (inc many of us doubtless). > > The people who know Most about the UCB Lite agreement, won't speak much > anyway - they signed non disclosures. > > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix= .com > =A0Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. =A0 =A0 =A0http://asciiribbon= .org > =A0Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 http://berkl= ix.com/free/ > --=20 -- Don Wilde " Engineering the Future " http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 17:49:50 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661F0106566B for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:49:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2978FC12 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:49:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from park.js.berklix.net (p549A479F.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.71.159]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n8SHnlY8054966; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:49:48 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by park.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n8SHnYkC005640; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:49:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8SHpmdo071531; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:52:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200909281752.n8SHpmdo071531@fire.js.berklix.net> To: dwilde1@gmail.com From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:16:05 CDT." Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:51:48 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:49:50 -0000 Don Wilde wrote: > What is incorrect, Julian? .. etc. In 1977 I started learning Unix V6 as a Unix newbie. There were no UCB bits I heard of till csh & job control & vi floated in to my Uni. a few years on, maybe 1980 +/- a year or 2, I'd guess about 82. Can't remember when I heard of first complete BSD releases for PDP/VAX but after the individual bits. man 3 ctime "The functions ctime(), gmtime() and localtime() all take as an argument a time value representing the time in seconds since the Epoch (00:00:00 UTC, January 1, 1970; see time(3))." 1970 in context quoted below ? No. > On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >> From:         Don Wilde > > Don Wilde wrote: > >> http://www.engineeringjobfuture.com/articles/leverage/open-source-software > > Article contains > >        "The lawsuit was bitterly contested, but finally resolved. > >        Everything developed before 1970 was declared by a judge > >        to be open forever more, and everything developed after > >        that was AT&T's property." > > > > False. I stopped reading at that point, after all, the journalist > > was probably just winging it, after a few emails to people who read > > the activity at the time (inc many of us doubtless). > > > > The people who know Most about the UCB Lite agreement, won't speak much > > anyway - they signed non disclosures. > > -- > -- Don Wilde > " Engineering the Future " > http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. http://berklix.com/free/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 18:02:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EADE106566C for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:02:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f209.google.com (mail-ew0-f209.google.com [209.85.219.209]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037DB8FC1B for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:02:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so3159387ewy.36 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:02:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xGJU3FBfOnjs6ckrwSJ4xdK2v+vl3vtVgsAc4O+tVHw=; b=n0ezop91i4UDx7vH6PVz8UUV7q1EyzHYmkDlXXZzCgSDqsLfp/4k7/QxUaU+jPwx/1 R//8AiCy2xZRXJ4bghFwrInk4jTQHLxVbab5gU/Dah1zOHuu32AGX8JFkeBRrSAjlqAL Rhdhg6XpUqTsEV4JYXrkK/hT+Uc+fLZ9O6FCc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bkvovC4vYi7B7rLDCRezgPp16BrhQaBO20UF7Y1hcxVSHMn60Vz9FgQpbpaPGZAGIb 8wK2U0TsaoxAvvO2rVjoEPMQ5MOQeaF+iiENGNfk52PMGs3cDnyGq/PqzWCG8Tu7g1dO w8VSWx4XZtFBBMYBdM7btKlzzVQ4dUaQR+jG4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.46.132 with SMTP id r4mr862826web.46.1254160921750; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:02:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200909281752.n8SHpmdo071531@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <200909281752.n8SHpmdo071531@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:02:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: Don Wilde To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:02:04 -0000 Thank you, Julian - Me bits be scrambled, methinks. Apologies all, correcting it I am now., For the record, the agreement was made in 1994. Here is the complete text. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=3D20041126130302760 -- :D On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Don Wilde wrote: >> What is incorrect, Julian? > .. etc. > > In 1977 I started learning Unix V6 as a Unix newbie. =A0There were > no UCB bits I heard of till csh & job control & vi floated in to > my Uni. a few years on, maybe 1980 +/- a year or 2, I'd guess about > 82. =A0Can't remember when I heard of first complete BSD releases for > PDP/VAX but after the individual bits. > > man 3 ctime > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"The functions ctime(), gmtime() and localtime() all take > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0as an argument a time value representing the time in secon= ds > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0since the Epoch (00:00:00 UTC, January 1, 1970; see time(3= ))." > > 1970 in context quoted below ? No. > >> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Julian H. Stacey wro= te: >> >> From: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Don Wilde >> > Don Wilde wrote: >> >> http://www.engineeringjobfuture.com/articles/leverage/open-source-sof= tware >> > Article contains >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"The lawsuit was bitterly contested, but finally resolv= ed. >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Everything developed before 1970 was declared by a judg= e >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to be open forever more, and everything developed after >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that was AT&T's property." >> > >> > False. I stopped reading at that point, after all, the journalist >> > was probably just winging it, after a few emails to people who read >> > the activity at the time (inc many of us doubtless). >> > >> > The people who know Most about the UCB Lite agreement, won't speak muc= h >> > anyway - they signed non disclosures. >> >> -- >> -- Don Wilde >> =A0 =A0" Engineering the Future " >> http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com > > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix= .com > =A0Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. =A0 =A0 =A0http://asciiribbon= .org > =A0Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 http://berkl= ix.com/free/ > --=20 -- Don Wilde " Engineering the Future " http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 18:11:40 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAAB2106566C for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:11:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C25C8FC12 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:11:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0166D41B; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:11:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2230C845E0; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:11:39 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: dwilde1@gmail.com References: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:11:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Don Wilde's message of "Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:16:05 -0500") Message-ID: <861vlr3pno.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:11:40 -0000 Don Wilde writes: > What is incorrect, Julian? Pretty much everything about the lawsuit. http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/USLsettlement.pdf I found the phrase "everything developed before 1970" particularly amusing, as it translates to approximately zero, plus or minus zero. Oh, and pretty much everything else as well. The practice of sharing source code without compensation (and the term "copyleft") can be traced to a hobbyist magazine that later developed into Dr Dobb's, and predates 3BSD (1BSD and 2BSD were only add-ons, not OS distributions) by about five years. The first explicit discussion of free software as such was in an article published in the July 1976 issue of SIGPLAN in reaction to Bill Gate's (in)famous "open letter". The first organized F/OSS movement was, like it or not, the GNU Project started by Richard Stallman in 1983. At that time, BSD was distributed only to institutions that already held an AT&T source code license. The network stack was "open sourced" in the late eighties, the rest of the system in the early-to-mid nineties. > He was drinking beer by the pitcher, so I'm sure he was more > forthcoming than usual. I neither know nor care whether that statement is true, but it's not a particularly nice thing to say about anyone. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 18:29:24 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873B91065679 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:29:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f209.google.com (mail-ew0-f209.google.com [209.85.219.209]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFED8FC21 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:29:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so3186305ewy.36 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:29:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jc/n4s0giIfgrod08fI5xCMXrP+FDukvFhkSdR+6FGs=; b=d2VfvKpUTHxmNEuFOfKE9zYPnwTv9G9Zr/Qrd9ekbew0fJ+iXfhptVqHa6UlGqToDv nWUFUV2H3Hlqp/ZpfUyWxaoZkx6UzX9K3azzEkuenVeEBWTijVQa2jfNsUUXA/Xd3Llj /0ZyylXDLpoQyS7oakJId1G6yM7aZ5pDyxIzs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xW8veuydyzZfj8H6eyLheBwOSypeIt+qbS8kx7J7HQi0VIdXYHy0aoVpW0Fja7hXtl b86ejq+IoCva7dzycQ3NFGwjQvjev5Oe9sIuOa3mzlbGAEgwl2gMBBT/wDffo1gzPZUm T824S0y78qzClT6nwKwvdvxshrzjjzAZdlw1c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.56.81 with SMTP id l59mr881702wec.88.1254162561984; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <861vlr3pno.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> <861vlr3pno.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:29:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Don Wilde To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:29:24 -0000 Dag-Erling, I remember you quite well as a core developer, so I don't doubt that your knowledge of history is better than mine. Thank you both for the corrections. AFA pitchers of beer, it was meant as a friendly dig on an insider's list and not meant as disrespect for Kirk's achievements, which have far more to do with all of us being here today than I do. :D 2009/9/28 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav : > Don Wilde writes: >> What is incorrect, Julian? > > Pretty much everything about the lawsuit. > > http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html > http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/USLsettlement.pdf > > I found the phrase "everything developed before 1970" particularly > amusing, as it translates to approximately zero, plus or minus zero. > > Oh, and pretty much everything else as well. > > The practice of sharing source code without compensation (and the term > "copyleft") can be traced to a hobbyist magazine that later developed > into Dr Dobb's, and predates 3BSD (1BSD and 2BSD were only add-ons, not > OS distributions) by about five years. =A0The first explicit discussion o= f > free software as such was in an article published in the July 1976 issue > of SIGPLAN in reaction to Bill Gate's (in)famous "open letter". =A0The > first organized F/OSS movement was, like it or not, the GNU Project > started by Richard Stallman in 1983. =A0At that time, BSD was distributed > only to institutions that already held an AT&T source code license. =A0Th= e > network stack was "open sourced" in the late eighties, the rest of the > system in the early-to-mid nineties. > >> He was drinking beer by the pitcher, so I'm sure he was more >> forthcoming than usual. > > I neither know nor care whether that statement is true, but it's not a > particularly nice thing to say about anyone. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no > --=20 -- Don Wilde " Engineering the Future " http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 19:00:32 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF1D1065696 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:00:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982B58FC20 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:00:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C586D41B; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:00:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 643EA845DC; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:00:31 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: dwilde1@gmail.com References: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> <861vlr3pno.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:00:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Don Wilde's message of "Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:29:21 -0500") Message-ID: <86ske63ne8.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:00:32 -0000 Don Wilde writes: > Dag-Erling, I remember you quite well as a core developer, so I don't > doubt that your knowledge of history is better than mine. Never been on core. My knowledge of this matter comes from researching it (thoroughly) for the history section of a presentation on open source licensing. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 28 19:27:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E9C1065670 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:27:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmdlnkid@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A788FC0A for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:27:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so3415859bwz.43 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:27:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent:x-openpgp-key-id :x-openpgp-key-fingerprint:mime-version:content-type; bh=o6AucTOY1pi/zRQmduSlYs1wWFQ+HjwdJzFtna3sHsg=; b=r4yqhHXugIb5dFc4gCJm0q27mJFGh1jtOmTVuyNIggyJfyWo5o5w/M+WK5Lp5QSSFc GIUVhL+FM7Ziq9zqwP0JdBquMg1caUU2ozvZyt5i3lBJbWPyvijmdDCjq4L7RRiknGcn HYtpt0F+F7noMHvqymq0WI5+45BewhtJX8X6w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:x-openpgp-key-id:x-openpgp-key-fingerprint:mime-version :content-type; b=ZqyjvQk0X9i4QTllgUWCvaIvmExV7U+LtfJpvUMjtPn8DhhcXphyBOM4ONXW+cFik4 DB3v2BtBNms8SiwDmT3P20vId42PiM90ElG/Mhgtag891l4uAGhsTATYEvzoJdYCehZw E2GhSuiWeFlVX04L4Cod6rBcuSXg96WORm68E= Received: by 10.204.141.18 with SMTP id k18mr3236661bku.139.1254164375048; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dimension.5p.local (adsl-99-35-15-84.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net [99.35.15.84]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g28sm5135402fkg.15.2009.09.28.11.59.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:59:26 -0400 From: CmdLnKid To: Andrea Brancatelli In-Reply-To: <4AC0C637.4010800@brancatelli.it> Message-ID: References: <20090928120004.6EAF710656B7@hub.freebsd.org> <44843e1b0909280538x217be446q17115d9169c4270c@mail.gmail.com> <4AC0C637.4010800@brancatelli.it> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0xFAD8B467 X-OpenPGP-Key-Fingerprint: D197 8B5A C1BC AD25 33C9 16DF 2C68 DCDE FAD8 B467 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 295, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:27:30 -0000 On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:20 -0000, andrea wrote: > Il 28/09/2009 14.38, Kevin Hatfield ha scritto: >> The simplest most effective way to grow the FreeBSD userbase is >> indemnification. Large companies that purchase RHEL/SuSE, etc. It's >> not because they "don't know what they're doing" as someone mentioned >> above. Most of the large Enterprise RHEL/SUSE contracts come down to >> indemnification with support being a bonus. >> >> > > I strongly agree and also share my personal experience in deploying a massive > system (3600 distributed boxes) in which Red Hat was adopted and FreeBSD > (even if the project would actually work better under FreeBSD) just becase > "if we run out of ideas we can always call red hat italy". > > This is a huge problem..... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > So basically... Bottom line is we need a stronger commercial support base than what is already implemented. Building upon that maybe more attention should be posed at getting certified BSD professionals into commercial support infrastructure sites that can influence small changes that impact future growth and funding. Personally I am working on a company that is not even 1 city block away from me and at this time they support all forms of Linux and they are a remote IT support type entity that is handling database technologies and VoIP. I am looking at coming on as a BSD advocate to broaden their range of support. If there is any suggestions that I could make as a selling point for a career at a company that does not offer any type of BSD support yet, I would certainly appreciate any feedback and ideas. Best regards "Were Here...." -- - (2^(N-1)) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 29 06:32:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37141065672 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:32:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.lalrindika@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f202.google.com (mail-pz0-f202.google.com [209.85.222.202]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B448FC0C for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:32:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk40 with SMTP id 40so2994830pzk.7 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:32:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BcC2jIG0lIMszS0yktMhCYSG9QVNEsER1NKkpeyPqd4=; b=rpO+7p4HyS+avjm4XQKuGFSe/dDWHGxHjAxjfK/bLvcpYCc0JcsV/zFM6Bbgfs9ULh /cSHF6mt0S4JrNUbx5fGCEuw9AQTrKyuMjNgYYYBeaKwj6Dng9+aEJC4hlH/Jc1biPlN 48+y5OIn1jkU3hbFXbRXXC8GVGiwbenrMOu1c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=WconEfiT1MQ9M72+YBGEDRzUPvVD2HijUQsTN/z0BaS0/z9CYJvZnc4cESnoCndkEh /NoE9bZtQyHWCK4mdrN4Eok2mjm/uccmCYztcN5yE33rVZ38TukWtytRV3ezP+Qn6MBh i/UZriEGcUg35Mh/dDpcugYWh/ElFeW41Bp04= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.5.18 with SMTP id 18mr7454245wae.140.1254204569596; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:09:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:09:29 -0700 Message-ID: <4ec07b640909282309lbc1af39m67ac8ac2268b565@mail.gmail.com> From: Madika Vuite To: dwilde1@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:32:51 -0000 On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Don Wilde wrote: > What is incorrect, Julian? I interviewed both Kirk McK and Berkeley's > chief legal beagle several years ago. If I'm incorrect, I'd prefer to > get it right. > > I even bought Kirk's video after a FBSD convention a long time back. > He was drinking beer by the pitcher, so I'm sure he was more > forthcoming than usual. > > I also was the one who orchestrated the Darwin press release when > working as a stringer with Bob Bruce's WC-CDROM, so I do have a little > history here. > > On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Julian H. Stacey > wrote: > > Hi, > >> From: Don Wilde > > > > Don Wilde wrote: > >> > http://www.engineeringjobfuture.com/articles/leverage/open-source-software > > > > Article contains > > "The lawsuit was bitterly contested, but finally resolved. > > Everything developed before 1970 was declared by a judge > > to be open forever more, and everything developed after > > that was AT&T's property." > > > > False. I stopped reading at that point, after all, the journalist > > was probably just winging it, after a few emails to people who read > > the activity at the time (inc many of us doubtless). > > > > The people who know Most about the UCB Lite agreement, won't speak much > > anyway - they signed non disclosures. > > > > Cheers, > > Julian > > -- > > Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich > http://berklix.com > > Mail ASCII plain text not HTML & Base64. http://asciiribbon.org > > Virused Microsoft PCs cause spam. http://berklix.com/free/ > > > > > > -- > -- Don Wilde > " Engineering the Future " > http://www.EngineeringJobFuture.com > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 30 14:50:29 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6D3106566B for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:50:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lordofhyphens@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f192.google.com (mail-px0-f192.google.com [209.85.216.192]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9098FC0C for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:50:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi30 with SMTP id 30so7982626pxi.7 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Txr6JA0phDZXhnDw1/RJLh1PQwEFzRiKuORCHaFqK04=; b=ekPVzZd70pQmp5MJT+ShGYDWSFQoHRIVucC5+w0lP9h5bU7qmSeHR/E/G5CtzwJGkf gEIaxjHJF4jw0joG/iIYtBcIPQjvBQH+QyD3S4djV8qMNKfAKZj9lvtinIrYr6woNQtS 66LygWHWTtKTZx4PJDR+iHEcEy6zZhDMwkyps= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OnNxFTVn2o48pFWGFlbvChdcM5236kVomTX8N56/21qfAHy592LpbdvPHWcm6qY3/j PcYmOz7yLNvBM2+QK8UHvki6oXa9FOxndA+5OEK47/5b1OhCU62wxdbIw5lm0zemyTVn Ax6eSjCLQ8UMFSWTochQSslhfZrlpTDdTrKqc= Received: by 10.140.132.7 with SMTP id f7mr591702rvd.296.1254320420495; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?131.230.41.170? (ws041170.vas.siu.edu [131.230.41.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1164639yxe.8.2009.09.30.07.20.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4AC36922.6010608@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:20:18 -0500 From: LoH User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" References: <200909241735.n8OHZMVM099476@fire.js.berklix.net> <4AC02164.7040201@thebeastie.org> In-Reply-To: <4AC02164.7040201@thebeastie.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why no Oracle on FreeBSD ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:50:29 -0000 > The reality is that Oracle is meant to be a very expensive solution > for companies that don't know what to do. This makes Red Hat etc an > ideal contender for this situation as it promises full enterprise > support. > Whether it is the truth or if its even a good solution is completely > irreverent to these 2 tech companies because at the end of the day > they are just trying to make money and please the stock holders. > > Huh? Last I remember reading, Oracle hasn't put a native version together for FreeBSD because running it through the linuxlator works well enough to justify not spending engineering resources on it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 30 22:58:24 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E7C1065696 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:58:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from outbound-mail-15.bluehost.com (outbound-mail-15.bluehost.com [69.89.18.115]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4548C8FC1B for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 31349 invoked by uid 0); 30 Sep 2009 22:58:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by outboundproxy1.bluehost.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2009 22:58:23 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=AvRXwsFFDRNbOqWgz1TOVBce0tDwCkTNchsy0GXJnwKxbCb2HIDJvbHawLKMn7IcI6z5AfzD9MYW4ql3iJFHlIKpoeG+1oUvYyTLxHy6IHrx45NCnnA9w32eVq5Mlmsh; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mt87r-00072D-AR for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:58:23 -0600 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:51:11 -0600 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:51:11 -0600 From: Chad Perrin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20090930225111.GA6843@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200909281709.n8SH8xsG070888@fire.js.berklix.net> <861vlr3pno.fsf@ds4.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <861vlr3pno.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: leveraging FOSS, especially FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:58:24 -0000 --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 08:11:39PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >=20 > I found the phrase "everything developed before 1970" particularly > amusing, as it translates to approximately zero, plus or minus zero. Wait . . . that wasn't a typo? --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkrD4N8ACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKVchACfQ3/z6kUy8a+euouxX1vWxnFx O8EAoNeantFG+zMLq6MefauqS0qPf2Qg =eV4J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6--