From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 29 05:57:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB6E106566B for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 05:57:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from glenbarber.us (onyx.glenbarber.us [199.48.134.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC2AD8FC0C for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 05:57:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 29985 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jul 2012 05:57:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO glenbarber.us) (76.124.49.145) by 0 with SMTP; 29 Jul 2012 05:57:44 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 01:57:42 -0400 From: Glen Barber To: "Simon L. B. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20120729055742.GC1693@glenbarber.us> References: <20120728041732.GH1485@glenbarber.us> <9B7CD8B1-42CB-487D-9C27-C9F6D39CD600@FreeBSD.org> <40854dbc-f4c1-4609-9f48-791a1886c0c9@email.android.com> <48CC53EB-AB26-4F52-99AA-7D4ED0B8F85F@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48CC53EB-AB26-4F52-99AA-7D4ED0B8F85F@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT amd64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: webmaster@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Documentation Masters , World Wide Web Owner Subject: Re: Removal of old/outdated files from www.FreeBSD.org site X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 05:57:45 -0000 --p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 10:14:11PM +0100, Simon L. B. Nielsen wrote: > As a reference, the build script is at: > http://svnweb.freebsd.org/doc/head/share/tools/webupdate >=20 > So anyone wanting to try and fix that can start reading that. The > simple brute force solution would e.g. be a weekly install to a > separate dir and then check which files should not be in the dir > we serve www.freebsd.org off. >=20 Or, we can force a reinstall regardless of mtime. > Another solution might be to make the weekly full build install > to a different dir and switch the clean and the old dir... but I > slightly worry that any error in the script will result in no content > on www. Agreed. > > I will look into this for a permanent solution then. It is > > difficult to spot unless local changes are made though. But, 'make > > clean' followed by 'svn stat' will reveal these edge cases. >=20 > Hmm, how is it difficult to spot? A build of a document should > never ever produce an xNNNNN.html file. If it does, a sect1 is > missing an id. >=20 > Or am I missing something here? >=20 They are edge-cases. A few of which have taken me a few days to track the cause. It is not necessarily a problem with the build scripts, etc., but changes are that introduced as a result of workflow. I am still unsure of the exact chain of events that causes the duplicate, yet differently-named files, but it seems to follow in this pattern: o make changes to a chapter, rebuild the doc tree o make changes to a different section, rebuild the tree o run 'make clean', and xNNNN.html file from first change is not removed It has been highly inconsistently reproducible for me. Again, I am not saying there is a problem. I just want to avoid users finding outdated/wrong/bad/evil information from N years ago that would do very bad things to a system today. Glen --p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJQFNDWAAoJEFJPDDeguUaji/YH/iijzCc8/vzkqiVBJK3dqDFq MRJSh58+kA56sxg/6D29tRvtNeQ5DIr9RLYG7331wy9blpDNMMFkYMVxp5k2RIfL QbfqPUoq8cOwemU7TlDexVe/jteRrZXu2oRRnzuQQMfKrbLeh2m2OlNO3+n9oXjD tscll7fXdUrwdzHj1AfGgBR+0wr9vjaY7MHDsEmWUtrh9VvAMekST9zM/MGtADhF eSuqlLMQudwxQS7eC89Je9zzoFqlS5oQC7YsJ+bTyeni6hpjjisbFK6ImsQYixJp V3PAQfOdWoMeCrw59/WTiiBrYMZmhmL8MOKSftrdML4J1zZe+lOEF1McgdYg/OM= =iO98 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 29 09:22:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21869106566C; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:22:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hrs@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.allbsd.org (gatekeeper.allbsd.org [IPv6:2001:2f0:104:e001::32]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5328FC12; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:22:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from alph.allbsd.org (p2214-ipbf2707funabasi.chiba.ocn.ne.jp [123.225.119.214]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.allbsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6T9LpY1013009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:22:01 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from hrs@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by alph.allbsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6T9Lnus058860; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:21:51 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from hrs@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 16:43:22 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20120729.164322.483414833938209747.hrs@allbsd.org> To: gjb@FreeBSD.org From: Hiroki Sato In-Reply-To: <20120729055742.GC1693@glenbarber.us> References: <40854dbc-f4c1-4609-9f48-791a1886c0c9@email.android.com> <48CC53EB-AB26-4F52-99AA-7D4ED0B8F85F@FreeBSD.org> <20120729055742.GC1693@glenbarber.us> X-PGPkey-fingerprint: BDB3 443F A5DD B3D0 A530 FFD7 4F2C D3D8 2793 CF2D X-Mailer: Mew version 6.5 on Emacs 23.4 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="--Security_Multipart(Sun_Jul_29_16_43_22_2012_781)--" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.4 at gatekeeper.allbsd.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (mail.allbsd.org [133.31.130.32]); Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:22:01 +0900 (JST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.8 required=13.0 tests=CONTENT_TYPE_PRESENT, ONLY1HOPDIRECT, RCVD_IN_RP_RNBL, SAMEHELOBY2HOP, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on gatekeeper.allbsd.org Cc: webmaster@FreeBSD.org, doceng@FreeBSD.org, simon@FreeBSD.org, www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removal of old/outdated files from www.FreeBSD.org site X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:22:08 -0000 ----Security_Multipart(Sun_Jul_29_16_43_22_2012_781)-- Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen Barber wrote in <20120729055742.GC1693@glenbarber.us>: gj> o make changes to a chapter, rebuild the doc tree gj> o make changes to a different section, rebuild the tree gj> o run 'make clean', and xNNNN.html file from first change is not gj> removed gj> gj> It has been highly inconsistently reproducible for me. The xNNNN.html files can be left if building a doc, adding a new section to it, and rebuilding it, and then doing "make clean". Normally all of the generated *.html files including xNNNN.html are listed in HTML.manifest and "make clean" removes files in that file. However, adding a new section can change the name of xNNNN.html files and the successive rebuild overwrites HTML.manifest. The right way to solve this is adding section ids wherever applicable. I do not think we need to change the webupdate script once we remove the old files. -- Hiroki ----Security_Multipart(Sun_Jul_29_16_43_22_2012_781)-- Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAlAU6ZoACgkQTyzT2CeTzy2evACdEQiOvatmoukn+rOg90sEizDD a98AoJ8tU2cNVzfztgr9kFsV8mOzVpuP =HOiI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----Security_Multipart(Sun_Jul_29_16_43_22_2012_781)---- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 29 09:29:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EE6106566B; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:29:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from simon@FreeBSD.org) Received: from emx.nitro.dk (leto.nitro.dk [178.63.52.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882ED8FC0A; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:29:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailscan.leto.nitro.dk (mailscan.leto.nitro.dk [127.0.1.4]) by emx.nitro.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE90C205B09; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:29:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from emx.nitro.dk ([127.0.1.2]) by mailscan.leto.nitro.dk (mailscan.leto.nitro.dk [127.0.1.4]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ACxFCrbjOpYZ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:29:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.4.24] (unknown [89.100.2.68]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by emx.nitro.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9F751205AFF; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:29:29 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Simon L. B. Nielsen" In-Reply-To: <20120729.164322.483414833938209747.hrs@allbsd.org> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:29:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <40854dbc-f4c1-4609-9f48-791a1886c0c9@email.android.com> <48CC53EB-AB26-4F52-99AA-7D4ED0B8F85F@FreeBSD.org> <20120729055742.GC1693@glenbarber.us> <20120729.164322.483414833938209747.hrs@allbsd.org> To: Hiroki Sato X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: webmaster@FreeBSD.org, gjb@FreeBSD.org, www@FreeBSD.org, doceng@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removal of old/outdated files from www.FreeBSD.org site X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:29:32 -0000 On 29 Jul 2012, at 08:43, Hiroki Sato wrote: > Glen Barber wrote > in <20120729055742.GC1693@glenbarber.us>: >=20 > gj> o make changes to a chapter, rebuild the doc tree > gj> o make changes to a different section, rebuild the tree > gj> o run 'make clean', and xNNNN.html file from first change is not > gj> removed > gj> > gj> It has been highly inconsistently reproducible for me. >=20 > The xNNNN.html files can be left if building a doc, adding a new > section to it, and rebuilding it, and then doing "make clean". > Normally all of the generated *.html files including xNNNN.html are > listed in HTML.manifest and "make clean" removes files in that file. > However, adding a new section can change the name of xNNNN.html files > and the successive rebuild overwrites HTML.manifest. >=20 > The right way to solve this is adding section ids wherever > applicable. I do not think we need to change the webupdate script > once we remove the old files. I think we should still. It's not just a problem for xNNNNN.html file, = but also removed sections and renamed sections. E.g. we did recently = have a case where in the handbook there was a stale install chapter etc. = because the section had been renamed. Old files will accumulate if we = cannot automatically remove them. --=20 Simon L. B. Nielsen From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 30 11:07:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C42C1065692 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:07:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162408FC1F for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:07:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6UB7UIS001993 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:07:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q6UB7UjL001991 for freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:07:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:07:30 GMT Message-Id: <201207301107.q6UB7UjL001991@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 11:07:31 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o www/170053 www Mailing list sort options broken for svn lists o www/166496 www HP-UX manual pages are mangled o www/161174 www Make http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/search.cgi search GNAT o www/159291 www Error 404 - when I try to send-pr over freebsd.org/es/ s www/157076 www freebsd-wireless mailing list not shown on web All Lis o www/149446 www [patch] improve misleading title of "report a bug" f www/146089 www On www.freebsd.org some IPv6 mirror sites do not work o www/145917 www SVG at logo.html is broken s www/140580 www svnweb file logs are useless s www/129923 www Need stylesheet for FreeBSD Subversion DAV tree s www/111791 www FreeBSD website messes up while using "links" browser s www/103522 www Search interface oddity s www/73551 www [request] fix list archive 'quoted-printable' corrupti s www/51135 www Problems with the mailing-lists search interface 14 problems total. From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 30 23:05:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3DC106566C for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 23:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lpeterson@lcnets.org) Received: from mail.weavemail.org (unknown [IPv6:2002:4626:5600::4626:5600]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F0B78FC12 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 23:05:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fsheu-PC ([70.183.24.98]) by mail.weavemail.org ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:05:07 -0700 Message-ID: <02ebf6db-41120-28ab6702679398@fsheu-pc> From: "Larry Peterson" To: www@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:04:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Cc: Subject: Community Collaborative Networks X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Larry Peterson List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 23:05:20 -0000 July 30, 2012 Dear Community Leader, The Community Collaborative Networks at http://www.lcnets.org is inviting members to join. While a social network is for sharing of personal news and events, a community collaborative network is for sharing of resources (including information and tools) in a local community (by city) among its members. In the simplest case members can collaborate to create a comprehensive repository of resources. As specific needs arise further collaborations among individual members can spin off more collaborative networks. With a free membership you can network with other members in your local community via your private ‘space’ (where you create your own space name and slogan). You can also create your own collaborative networks so others can join. We hope you will find them useful, and look forward to your participation! Sincerely, Larry Peterson lpeterson@lcnets.org Community Collaborative Networks We apologize if you receive multiple copies of this message; to unsubscribe (mailto:unsubscribe@wikinets.org). 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From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 11:13:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D24B106567A; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:13:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gabor@FreeBSD.org) Received: from server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [87.229.73.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BCF8FC16; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:13:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.mypc.hu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357D814E7E1B; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:03:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at server.mypc.hu Received: from server.mypc.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id CRhdcZtC9ZgK; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:03:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.117] (catv-80-98-232-12.catv.broadband.hu [80.98.232.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE1F814E7E07; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:02:21 +0200 From: Gabor Kovesdan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/14.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: doc@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: www@FreeBSD.org Subject: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 11:13:05 -0000 Hi Doc Fellows, the XML migration that is in progress now, is also a big cleanup that will probably simplify documentation authoring. When working on this item I've encountered several old constructs and several things that made me think of further directions. I'd like to discuss these changes with you before proceeding with them: 1, Removing emacs PSGML comments: PSGML is an emacs mode for SGML editing. It can be instructed to behave in a determined way by SGML comments or separately with a configuration file (described in fdp-primer). Our documentation is scattered by PSGML comments like this: XML requires tags to be closed and attributes to be always quoted so this loses most if its utility and these comments just confuse people, who don't know what they mean. Indenting or any other specific option can be configured in the .emacs file. I propose dropping these comments. 2, Relaxing character entity usage: To be able to read non-ASCII characters on ASCII-only systems, we have been using character entities, like á. But in CJK languages, Greek and Russian every character is non-ASCII so practically they cannot be used nor were they used. So they are only used in ISO-8859 encodings (except Greek, which is also from this family). In fact, displaying these Latin-based characters nowadays isn't that problematic any more. Furthermore, if you edit text in a given language then we can suppose that you understand the language so you know what you should see and you know how to configure your system if you don't see the desired result. As a result, these entities nowadays don't have any real advantage any more but they highly "pollute" the text and make it much harder to edit and read. One exception is using characters in a specific language that aren't present there, e.g. a non-English developer name in the English documentation, etc. So I propose for every translation to convert back entities to normal characters and only conserve those that aren't present in the given language. Abundance of character entities used to mean difficulties for new documentation people, especially for those who don't have that much IT background. This change would make the texts more natural. 3, Preferring XML/XSLT over scripts: Some parts of the web, like the A-Z index and sitemap pages have their own format that is processed with shell scripts. It would be more consistent to use an XML data file with an XSLT stylesheet for this objective. It would give us more flexibility for further changes and would reduce the several different methods we use to generate things. 4, Stricter XHML: I don't propose going directly to XHTML Strict 1.0 but there are very inconsistently marked up
's, 's, etc. I would like to make them more consistent and prefer CSS styling when applicable. There are also empty paragraphs used as line breaks, which should also be eliminated. This would give us a more consistent look and more structure-oriented webpage files. And after the migration, I plan: 5, Identifying obsolete webpages: There are moved pages both in the English pages and translations that only serve for redirection. These pages were moved a very long time ago so any interested party could update her bookmarks. I would like to remove these finally. On the other hand, there are leftovers in translations, i.e. pages that were removed from the English web but not from the translations. I would like to generate a list of them and send patches to translation projects to clean these up. Thanks in advance for your comments, Gabor From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 11:13:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3814A106567B; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:13:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gabor@FreeBSD.org) Received: from server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [87.229.73.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C1B8FC17; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:13:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.mypc.hu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE3714E7E1C; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:03:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at server.mypc.hu Received: from server.mypc.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 5dA1-TUSftjG; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:03:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.117] (catv-80-98-232-12.catv.broadband.hu [80.98.232.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4182E14E7E1B; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:03:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <501BAFCF.9010600@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:02:39 +0200 From: Gabor Kovesdan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/14.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: doc@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: www@FreeBSD.org Subject: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 11:13:05 -0000 Hi Doc Fellows, the XML migration that is in progress now, is also a big cleanup that will probably simplify documentation authoring. When working on this item I've encountered several old constructs and several things that made me think of further directions. I'd like to discuss these changes with you before proceeding with them: 1, Removing emacs PSGML comments: PSGML is an emacs mode for SGML editing. It can be instructed to behave in a determined way by SGML comments or separately with a configuration file (described in fdp-primer). Our documentation is scattered by PSGML comments like this: XML requires tags to be closed and attributes to be always quoted so this loses most if its utility and these comments just confuse people, who don't know what they mean. Indenting or any other specific option can be configured in the .emacs file. I propose dropping these comments. 2, Relaxing character entity usage: To be able to read non-ASCII characters on ASCII-only systems, we have been using character entities, like á. But in CJK languages, Greek and Russian every character is non-ASCII so practically they cannot be used nor were they used. So they are only used in ISO-8859 encodings (except Greek, which is also from this family). In fact, displaying these Latin-based characters nowadays isn't that problematic any more. Furthermore, if you edit text in a given language then we can suppose that you understand the language so you know what you should see and you know how to configure your system if you don't see the desired result. As a result, these entities nowadays don't have any real advantage any more but they highly "pollute" the text and make it much harder to edit and read. One exception is using characters in a specific language that aren't present there, e.g. a non-English developer name in the English documentation, etc. So I propose for every translation to convert back entities to normal characters and only conserve those that aren't present in the given language. Abundance of character entities used to mean difficulties for new documentation people, especially for those who don't have that much IT background. This change would make the texts more natural. 3, Preferring XML/XSLT over scripts: Some parts of the web, like the A-Z index and sitemap pages have their own format that is processed with shell scripts. It would be more consistent to use an XML data file with an XSLT stylesheet for this objective. It would give us more flexibility for further changes and would reduce the several different methods we use to generate things. 4, Stricter XHML: I don't propose going directly to XHTML Strict 1.0 but there are very inconsistently marked up
's,
's, etc. I would like to make them more consistent and prefer CSS styling when applicable. There are also empty paragraphs used as line breaks, which should also be eliminated. This would give us a more consistent look and more structure-oriented webpage files. And after the migration, I plan: 5, Identifying obsolete webpages: There are moved pages both in the English pages and translations that only serve for redirection. These pages were moved a very long time ago so any interested party could update her bookmarks. I would like to remove these finally. On the other hand, there are leftovers in translations, i.e. pages that were removed from the English web but not from the translations. I would like to generate a list of them and send patches to translation projects to clean these up. Thanks in advance for your comments, Gabor From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 13:33:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC611065672 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:33:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from simon@qxnitro.org) Received: from mail-gg0-f182.google.com (mail-gg0-f182.google.com [209.85.161.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD268FC17 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:33:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ggnk4 with SMTP id k4so1007600ggn.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 06:33:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxnitro.org; s=google; h=mime-version:sender:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dbl/JfLKOV4je4QvsvcQpLXy0XRcPGLM9OY2qv9H3oc=; b=Lm/FV3UcqqA1TuImGe+thxS3p3p4juuXivkNoIKceARwzidyt1oQr1Glh7JYsuv+8m AZrsbmwlLupui9YWN2YGDP8u29/6qhQWxKMhelCpVg2FCiAQzdiBDcTYdDUO+rr3oMK5 cCxB/R2UdIJ3NDK7tDrjyWoOmQcGOMmU9sva8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=dbl/JfLKOV4je4QvsvcQpLXy0XRcPGLM9OY2qv9H3oc=; b=E0sHvhqtiG6fvSZQfzJK1YdqtlR+93vpHNmcWxL3s8h85Pl9eHggQvlJ1+qa0T2lcP x8uVaEfkbWbxKv52rwG76U6+fZD6HnaWHPbm85bsHezBWtXBipiAFB2Vfu8iLAiwBmf1 pGVqvU1oxmurH6Iz9GUgnphS3TWpiYZKltf9k7zQlK9tMxa4bGQt0w7OeUTJLP81qBT2 1kOMh+TBUW+eSDGaiAAYz0KTfu57dhDpaQLhLvKlALFiEc1bSwgiB4/A0wxsJhnE1oJC 3wQ3K+tnRC59iRS19fK6hrjViRU4pz7Ztezqpn/IQfrt9r+xzRgXE0911Xb8x+C1yIzL up3A== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.208.100 with SMTP id md4mr3382478igc.65.1344000784315; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 06:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Sender: simon@qxnitro.org Received: by 10.64.18.74 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2620:0:1040:201:5991:b1e1:4b0b:1df0] In-Reply-To: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> References: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:33:04 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zo8pZ6vZ1dP06WRvxfEGzofnx8o Message-ID: From: "Simon L. B. Nielsen" To: Gabor Kovesdan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnyogMPCfLeVzW+JG78O+576F6bZUW1SyuHCKvU2GHh/qLxf3N/zf+N0yvNwtxURbyvVoEl Cc: doc@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:33:07 -0000 On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Gabor Kovesdan wrote: > 1, Removing emacs PSGML comments: PSGML is an emacs mode for SGML editing. > It can be instructed to behave in a determined way by SGML comments or > separately with a configuration file (described in fdp-primer). Our > documentation is scattered by PSGML comments like this: > > > > XML requires tags to be closed and attributes to be always quoted so this > loses most if its utility and these comments just confuse people, who don't > know what they mean. Indenting or any other specific option can be > configured in the .emacs file. I propose dropping these comments. I don't care too much about it confusing people, but if they loose their point with XML it sounds like a sane enough reason to remove them. > 2, Relaxing character entity usage: To be able to read non-ASCII characters > on ASCII-only systems, we have been using character entities, like á. > But in CJK languages, Greek and Russian every character is non-ASCII so > practically they cannot be used nor were they used. So they are only used in > ISO-8859 encodings (except Greek, which is also from this family). In fact, > displaying these Latin-based characters nowadays isn't that problematic any > more. Furthermore, if you edit text in a given language then we can suppose > that you understand the language so you know what you should see and you > know how to configure your system if you don't see the desired result. As a > result, these entities nowadays don't have any real advantage any more but > they highly "pollute" the text and make it much harder to edit and read. One I agree that the entities should generally not be used. I think we should just switch to UTF-8 and charecterset wherever possible to simplify it even more. And on that note, kill the useless character-set part of all our language directories which generate horrible paths with no additional value. > exception is using characters in a specific language that aren't present > there, e.g. a non-English developer name in the English documentation, etc. UTF-8 would fix that. > So I propose for every translation to convert back entities to normal > characters and only conserve those that aren't present in the given > language. Abundance of character entities used to mean difficulties for new > documentation people, especially for those who don't have that much IT > background. This change would make the texts more natural. Sounds good to me. > 3, Preferring XML/XSLT over scripts: Some parts of the web, like the A-Z > index and sitemap pages have their own format that is processed with shell > scripts. It would be more consistent to use an XML data file with an XSLT > stylesheet for this objective. It would give us more flexibility for further > changes and would reduce the several different methods we use to generate > things. To a degree. IMO XSLT is a horrible language to work with unless you are really used to it, and I suspect most people aren't compared to normal scripting languages. Using XML as the main format sounds fine with me, but only use XSLT if it can be done short and sanely. The more relevant part of this to fix IMO, is that both sitemap and a-z indexes are horribly out of date / incomplete. > 4, Stricter XHML: I don't propose going directly to XHTML Strict 1.0 but Eh, why would you go to XHTML at all considering it's basically deprecated in favor for HTML5 (yes, there is no standard for that, but still..). > there are very inconsistently marked up
's,
's, etc. I would > like to make them more consistent and prefer CSS styling when applicable. > There are also empty paragraphs used as line breaks, which should also be > eliminated. This would give us a more consistent look and more > structure-oriented webpage files. I agree with that, but do be aware that there might be reasons for it being done that at times... Ie, don't blindly convert without checking the output. > And after the migration, I plan: > > 5, Identifying obsolete webpages: There are moved pages both in the English > pages and translations that only serve for redirection. These pages were > moved a very long time ago so any interested party could update her > bookmarks. I would like to remove these finally. On the other hand, there I personally prefer not killing the redirects if possible, but they could be done better at the HTTP level. If you can just generate a list of redirects I can move add them at the HTTP layer. > are leftovers in translations, i.e. pages that were removed from the English > web but not from the translations. I would like to generate a list of them > and send patches to translation projects to clean these up. That also hints at the general problem of stale translated pages, which can be much worse than not translated at all. Do we ever check how out of date pages are currently? -- Simon L. B. Nielsen From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 14:03:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8C1106566C; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gabor@FreeBSD.org) Received: from server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [87.229.73.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663408FC0C; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:03:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.mypc.hu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC4314E7E1B; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:03:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at server.mypc.hu Received: from server.mypc.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Y6PkD5rwZW8d; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:03:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.117] (catv-80-98-232-12.catv.broadband.hu [80.98.232.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0778714E7E07; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:03:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <501BD9E3.305@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 16:02:11 +0200 From: Gabor Kovesdan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/14.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Simon L. B. Nielsen" References: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: doc@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:03:12 -0000 On 2012.08.03. 15:33, Simon L. B. Nielsen wrote: > I agree that the entities should generally not be used. I think we > should just switch to UTF-8 and charecterset wherever possible to > simplify it even more. Agreed. UTF-8 is the future but I see it too early. You can now edit Latin-based encodings everywhere but I often use ssh terminal and ee(1) to edit documentations because I have a build environment and my devel stuff set up on a server and I can confirm that editing UTF-8 is sometimes problematic. > To a degree. IMO XSLT is a horrible language to work with unless you > are really used to it, and I suspect most people aren't compared to > normal scripting languages. > > Using XML as the main format sounds fine with me, but only use XSLT if > it can be done short and sanely. These would be very simple and short templates and the whole XSLT stuff has been simplified in the sgml2xml branch. > > The more relevant part of this to fix IMO, is that both sitemap and > a-z indexes are horribly out of date / incomplete. Agreed. But I want to separate infrastructure and content changes. > >> 4, Stricter XHML: I don't propose going directly to XHTML Strict 1.0 but > Eh, why would you go to XHTML at all considering it's basically > deprecated in favor for HTML5 (yes, there is no standard for that, but > still..). I can think of two reasons: (1) It is the trivial and straight way to go to XHTML for now. HTML5 would be a bigger jump that should be tested more carefully. The current plan is to do the migration in several phases for better QA. For example, for now we are only going to DocBook 4.2/XML, which can still be used with Jade and DocBook DSSSL. Going to full XML-based standards and newer DocBook version will be a next step that requires more testing. (2) Are you sure HTML5 is supported in all browsers that our users use? For example, I sometimes use links and I imagine other people may do so, as well. We should investigate this more. > I agree with that, but do be aware that there might be reasons for it > being done that at times... Ie, don't blindly convert without checking > the output. Of course, I meant doing it with proper testing. > I personally prefer not killing the redirects if possible, but they > could be done better at the HTTP level. If you can just generate a > list of redirects I can move add them at the HTTP layer. Sounds good but what about mirrors? Maybe we should just generate redirection pages with a template and some Makefile macros? > >> are leftovers in translations, i.e. pages that were removed from the English >> web but not from the translations. I would like to generate a list of them >> and send patches to translation projects to clean these up. > That also hints at the general problem of stale translated pages, > which can be much worse than not translated at all. I agree but I don't want to step on the feet of the translators. They should themselves investigate how outdated something is but if something was deleted from the English pages, there's definitely no reason to keep it in translations, that's why I proposed it in such a way. > > Do we ever check how out of date pages are currently? I think it depends on each translation project. And checking "outdatedness" isn't trivial. The revision number doesn't say anything. Nor does the number of changes on the original version, since one change can be a typo fix or a relevant content update. There's no way to figure it out. And checking the modification date is also useless because there are generally valid pieces of information and if you commit a typo fix after 3 years that doesn't make the translation seriously outdated... So I think it can only be done manually. But we could generate a warning if there's a newer English version. The Japanese translation used to do that but it broke after the SVN migration. We'll check that with hrs@ after the XML migration is done. Gabor From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 14:15:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765631065670; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:15:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uqs@FreeBSD.org) Received: from acme.spoerlein.net (acme.spoerlein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:131:23c2::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8A48FC12; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:15:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (acme.spoerlein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:131:23c2::1]) by acme.spoerlein.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q73EFdCa061912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:15:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uqs@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:15:39 +0200 From: Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= To: "Simon L. B. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20120803141538.GG1202@acme.spoerlein.net> References: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: doc@FreeBSD.org, Gabor Kovesdan , www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:15:41 -0000 On Fri, 2012-08-03 at 14:33:04 +0100, Simon L. B. Nielsen wrote: > On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Gabor Kovesdan wrote: > > 2, Relaxing character entity usage: To be able to read non-ASCII characters > > on ASCII-only systems, we have been using character entities, like á. > > But in CJK languages, Greek and Russian every character is non-ASCII so > > practically they cannot be used nor were they used. So they are only used in > > ISO-8859 encodings (except Greek, which is also from this family). In fact, > > displaying these Latin-based characters nowadays isn't that problematic any > > more. Furthermore, if you edit text in a given language then we can suppose > > that you understand the language so you know what you should see and you > > know how to configure your system if you don't see the desired result. As a > > result, these entities nowadays don't have any real advantage any more but > > they highly "pollute" the text and make it much harder to edit and read. One > > I agree that the entities should generally not be used. I think we > should just switch to UTF-8 and charecterset wherever possible to > simplify it even more. > > And on that note, kill the useless character-set part of all our > language directories which generate horrible paths with no additional > value. > > > exception is using characters in a specific language that aren't present > > there, e.g. a non-English developer name in the English documentation, etc. > > UTF-8 would fix that. Last time I brought this up (trying to get rid of silly entities and the bogus charset name of the directories), I was told that our toolchain didn't fully grok UTF-8 yet, which was the reason we still had this de_DE.ISO8859-1 nonsense. The move to XML should really, really convert all files to UTF-8, drop that from the directories, and get rid of entities like ä or é, etc.o Just my two cents Uli From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 14:19:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E90F1065675 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:19:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from simon@qxnitro.org) Received: from mail-yw0-f54.google.com (mail-yw0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFC38FC14 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:19:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yhfs35 with SMTP id s35so1078789yhf.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 07:19:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxnitro.org; s=google; h=mime-version:sender:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lZofQR+UPmk/Hi9ZJQbyGeSTlK0T/soRSmCVtWAKiSE=; b=Lu194bnp7FXCM+7j9QX2vlhPx9bFgvEtdCH9x9cR1dq9k5zF+9zBVMb/psv8SiLts5 lF8bJZzNGFFE3ywTMdNTVffra0w7ocwBlGw+eUhXY/LEZBT7FAc4NiMN6ZCQ8m0bOvYC gWbQBtdFsbiCQgi5YDaATMqZixZ5b1LPNy0EE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=lZofQR+UPmk/Hi9ZJQbyGeSTlK0T/soRSmCVtWAKiSE=; b=Bj2admvfAgk/FY94YGzL7i2IgXJccfRv+d7xAkJMC/CZ82a399UA4OwSbmhshMohp8 FDmn4tOL0VW+atSNSRd8KOCDJ74TeBxDimC2NKyK3NtmxG1A7stypt+JmUe51ofQn12c oKZ7VSIJPZs/tijvBCMfSvlxesIeQg3hAto05QIWNAe7MnQlQPeH4mKyl3KxetRCkh4h FUHto5XJc2m5DuVslyfYAs2OROPhRKETB2CBZnvtMSd8y9B3sk/zC7ON0+YS/V9XcFBR 4Ae+KJUei75x38uK+0g8uwyHdxaJCx9oxsu6C5TKGGUbjPdONRl4afTYNlu1+GvLZY13 VA0g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.47.196 with SMTP id f4mr3646650ign.21.1344003584690; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 07:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: simon@qxnitro.org Received: by 10.64.18.74 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:19:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2620:0:1040:201:5991:b1e1:4b0b:1df0] In-Reply-To: <20120803141538.GG1202@acme.spoerlein.net> References: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> <20120803141538.GG1202@acme.spoerlein.net> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 15:19:44 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Z_sHHNIl_gqhHaVUdXVom5uXbZI Message-ID: From: "Simon L. B. Nielsen" To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ulrich_Sp=C3=B6rlein?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkYE6CUNZ4QZojJD67nmPbQwR8lLv9gWzL1hu8aAoJSPd57jSSwJmi7OHDOcJEKEJe5gVKr Cc: doc@freebsd.org, Gabor Kovesdan , www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:19:46 -0000 On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Ulrich Sp=C3=B6rlein wrot= e: > On Fri, 2012-08-03 at 14:33:04 +0100, Simon L. B. Nielsen wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Gabor Kovesdan wrot= e: >> > 2, Relaxing character entity usage: To be able to read non-ASCII chara= cters >> > on ASCII-only systems, we have been using character entities, like &aa= cute;. >> > But in CJK languages, Greek and Russian every character is non-ASCII s= o >> > practically they cannot be used nor were they used. So they are only u= sed in >> > ISO-8859 encodings (except Greek, which is also from this family). In = fact, >> > displaying these Latin-based characters nowadays isn't that problemati= c any >> > more. Furthermore, if you edit text in a given language then we can su= ppose >> > that you understand the language so you know what you should see and y= ou >> > know how to configure your system if you don't see the desired result.= As a >> > result, these entities nowadays don't have any real advantage any more= but >> > they highly "pollute" the text and make it much harder to edit and rea= d. One >> >> I agree that the entities should generally not be used. I think we >> should just switch to UTF-8 and charecterset wherever possible to >> simplify it even more. >> >> And on that note, kill the useless character-set part of all our >> language directories which generate horrible paths with no additional >> value. >> >> > exception is using characters in a specific language that aren't prese= nt >> > there, e.g. a non-English developer name in the English documentation,= etc. >> >> UTF-8 would fix that. > > Last time I brought this up (trying to get rid of silly entities and > the bogus charset name of the directories), I was told that our > toolchain didn't fully grok UTF-8 yet, which was the reason we still had > this de_DE.ISO8859-1 nonsense. Ah, ok. > The move to XML should really, really convert all files to UTF-8, drop > that from the directories, and get rid of entities like ä or > é, etc.o Unfortunately I can only agree 100% ;-). --=20 Simon L. B. Nielsen From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 16:31:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F191065676 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-gh0-f182.google.com (mail-gh0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2358D8FC19 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:31:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghbz22 with SMTP id z22so1254797ghb.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 09:31:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ALGuV6CQ2qbUf0nsOp2pD8iAvAt2NKtZwsnyGqHIY+Y=; b=bZAIbM1y2mZf6H+/QaoYNJpSljqQLkHMRbu6ia6ZxeWhZ7aacmt+PM2SlRBqemrb7+ pzy5By6IHEkikbRKYWpmtMIN0LCrJCeHaXh8vd3Pr2696tfIdJjh8xcRUlyCQnNtmnaD cMUUss880GrrYpur0xmdjkj3l4gV9R0bhVMqU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=ALGuV6CQ2qbUf0nsOp2pD8iAvAt2NKtZwsnyGqHIY+Y=; b=BWWLDe4eF6B5neh03tdgn+pk5DjmBcZU7DQQN+ACagbtTfFqW1ltol0vo2bWn6wfFF ij6thrRmLJQeTQZHju6cSeF49tM1XMx+7QTEWNKvoPCVOMvOEYaNWvl/YacPcJSJB3wU QNqNtZIqeYuVCQIkVvuVHNy4cTVY8XNFCnyAgKNARiTGlz5lk7Wtw1lf7t8AlTJMp1Ro xOz+dazgCHf82IDq+Uj3UE+JzRDgmd5RHJEKFhgpgqUe08qmJZ8EQ09XDxZZrdAc0ptb s9MRRZGNppHFWAR6NE9z3rXS2oHhgVL/DBpIrvb4B5LqI1hOy4qb6wxf6ROYyIE/kzQl 6feA== Received: by 10.66.73.5 with SMTP id h5mr384239pav.79.1344011483960; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 09:31:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.67.52 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:30:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501BD9E3.305@FreeBSD.org> References: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> <501BD9E3.305@FreeBSD.org> From: Eitan Adler Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:30:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Gabor Kovesdan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQndNy2PYZaR444aHXXFs0WSGumLlHN6aS1Um2M12fmSCBAgCwBilWv9F19c+orbiwBIT8De Cc: doc@freebsd.org, "Simon L. B. Nielsen" , www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 16:31:25 -0000 On 3 August 2012 07:02, Gabor Kovesdan wrote: >>> 4, Stricter XHML: I don't propose going directly to XHTML Strict 1.0 but >> >> Eh, why would you go to XHTML at all considering it's basically >> deprecated in favor for HTML5 (yes, there is no standard for that, but >> still..). There is a standard. The WHATWG maintains it here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ > I can think of two reasons: > (1) It is the trivial and straight way to go to XHTML for now. HTML5 would > be a bigger jump that should be tested more carefully. The current plan is > to do the migration in several phases for better QA. For example, for now we > are only going to DocBook 4.2/XML, which can still be used with Jade and > DocBook DSSSL. Going to full XML-based standards and newer DocBook version > will be a next step that requires more testing. It is harder to move to XHTML than it is to move to HTML5. > (2) Are you sure HTML5 is supported in all browsers that our users use? For > example, I sometimes use links and I imagine other people may do so, as > well. We should investigate this more. I am reasonably sure browsers support HTML5 due to the fact that HTML5 largely documents *how things already work*. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 17:07:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4640D106566B; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gabor@FreeBSD.org) Received: from server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [87.229.73.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BAA8FC0C; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:07:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.mypc.hu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC6214E7E1F; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:07:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at server.mypc.hu Received: from server.mypc.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id gTuQge_KwlA1; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:07:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.117] (catv-80-98-232-12.catv.broadband.hu [80.98.232.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12BBD14E7E07; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:07:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <501C0529.7070801@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 19:06:49 +0200 From: Gabor Kovesdan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120604 Thunderbird/14.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eitan Adler References: <501BAFBD.3010008@FreeBSD.org> <501BD9E3.305@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: doc@freebsd.org, "Simon L. B. Nielsen" , www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: doc/www cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:07:41 -0000 On 2012.08.03. 18:30, Eitan Adler wrote: >> I can think of two reasons: >> >(1) It is the trivial and straight way to go to XHTML for now. HTML5 would >> >be a bigger jump that should be tested more carefully. The current plan is >> >to do the migration in several phases for better QA. For example, for now we >> >are only going to DocBook 4.2/XML, which can still be used with Jade and >> >DocBook DSSSL. Going to full XML-based standards and newer DocBook version >> >will be a next step that requires more testing. > It is harder to move to XHTML than it is to move to HTML5. > Could you elaborate this more? One issue with HTML5 is that we still want offline validation (not just well-formedness check) and there's no official schema. We have to write one or find one that is already written by someone and is reliable enough. Secondly, HTML5 isn't used widely yet and it would be nice to really be able to evaluate its usage for our docs in spite of all of its "awesomeness". In general, please consider that we have a really ancient technology set in use at the moment and we cannot risk big jumps by suddenly replacing everything. We have to catch up now with the upgrades that haven't done for a long time. I'm not against using UTF-8 and HTML5 and thorough testing and QA are important factors. I think something like this is a realistic upgrade path: 1, DocBook 4.2/XML, DocBook DSSSL, OpenJade, XHTML 1.0 --> currently in progress 2, DocBook 4.5/XML, DocBook XSL, xsltproc, xmlroff, HTML5 --> need to evaluate xmlroff for PDF and HTML5 3, DocBook 5.0/XML, DocBook XSL, xsltproc, xmlroff, HTML5, UTF-8 --> need to evaluate UTF-8 support Gabor