From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 17:47:22 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3815399D2F9 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:47:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x22c.google.com (mail-ob0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2296E80 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 17:47:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obnw1 with SMTP id w1so109471575obn.3 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 10:47:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=EsBuxI3t7sfNUvrwWHOgi4a0MCIxrj3XM1XIHBdP1jg=; b=t0PltRLH4LJjVz/v+KFjSTG4mmicRrXJoL6rgFEfIgJ2UkfYMPb/AFQeOnfgDFjYDZ 6UE0AohgvUGT7+d0e6ZGupaLn2wLLUt7oeo5YBo5EE3oXk768iitbL0jnO2hgj/f0YNC yI3qkXEIVvGfoWZIjGIkdd+GN7/bXR+bHKcjsoZnIozimquD4DJ423bpM07O32rTfIMA H6HCoP0RLkRRUE5zpLGh8y/R/bNVjuXNf80AZ1ASi1QB8noo09IqqrgovblDdiDUZBcG FNRAQUPzTouuNjEmXNYENQcYaIfRDrJ9O1Cd/bZgzJq/T2myQnCUf8wr26HnOAXhbmK1 /CJQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.153.228 with SMTP id vj4mr16646461obb.83.1439142441057; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 10:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 10:47:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:47:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: Kevin Bowling Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 17:47:22 -0000 I have done much convincing with regard to new hardware. It always happens eventually. But many companies I deal with are in a colo, don't care about power consumption (yet) and are reluctant to quit paying for rack space they think they might want. They move very slowly. I'd love to have them all by new modern hardware, believe you me. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > On 8/5/2015 12:10 PM, Bill Sorenson wrote: > >> I have been advised to post this in this list. I was going to rewrite this >> a bit but I'm not sure what parts people will be interested. Anyway: >> >> >> I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple >> platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with BSD on >> some of the lesser used platforms. >> >> I manage a fair number of systems, most of them running FreeBSD on 64-bit >> Intel, but I probably have more sparc64 and powerpc systems running now >> than on i386. I have made it a bit of a specialty of mine to make use of >> BSD on existing equipment owned by a customer in a Solaris or OS X (or >> some >> other, older Unix...) environment and migrating their special sauce to run >> on it (or it could be as simple as setting up a FreeBSD Samba server on an >> existing G5 Mac they own). >> >> There are a lot of old SunFire servers running Solaris out there that will >> take years to die, and a lot of companies aren't excited about buying a >> lot >> of new hardware and porting their code over to Linux (thank goodness). >> When >> they start to run into software support and management issues, I've found >> FreeBSD to be a relatively easy sell. They get an up to date modern OS >> with >> modern ports available and usually migrating their C code or perl isn't >> much of an issue. They get to hold off on buying hardware until there is a >> direct need (accounting really loves this). >> >> The advantage for me is that when these companies start looking at new >> hardware with the latest Xeon, they're already running FreeBSD 9.3 or >> 10.1. >> Their code is already ported, the software they're now using is already >> available and works. When they move, its basically a recompile and its >> good >> to go. These customers stick to BSD and forget about Linux or paying >> Oracle >> more money. Everything just works and they couldn't be happier. >> >> I've always been interested in the older and more unusual hardware, its a >> big part of how I found a niche in supporting it on a professional level. >> Personally I run a sparc64 server, a powerpc G5 Xserve, a Alpha based >> DS20L >> running OpenBSD and an old 68k Mac running NetBSD, partly for fun and >> partly to make sure I can support my clients (ok, the 68k Mac is purely >> for >> fun). >> >> I've found a lot of value in FreeBSD's support for older platforms for >> getting my foot in the door with a lot of customers. Yes sparc64 isn't the >> future for FreeBSD but I still think it is very much the present. Its not >> dead yet, there are a lot of users of this old gear out there if you know >> where to look. For a company that has never heard of FreeBSD to adopt it >> because it will extend the life of their hardware I think that is a very >> powerful thing. >> >> -Bill Sorenson >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> " >> >> > If you look around, you'll find many core committers are quite active on > the ARM and MIPS ports. > > SPARC became solidly niche when Oracle bought Sun. Your business model is > commendable, and getting people onto FreeBSD makes me happy. But these > businesses are being penny wise, pound foolish. A $1200 Xeon-D server > could consolidate (jails) a handful of sun4u systems and pay for itself in > electric savings within the year. > > I would love to see SPARC support continue simply because it's a gauntlet > that can eek out bugs. jhb@ gave a good overview of what is needed for > the toolchain. sun4v support would be another nice thing. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 19:59:56 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1D499D68C for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:59:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com (mail-io0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5736B9A6 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:59:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: by iodd187 with SMTP id d187so152377018iod.2 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 12:59:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=uWwQTk5XZSEZ3A7/druE8Pfe3HAZHvpNE0IUFmmoHNA=; b=iQRm6YRP9Ou2t05RsbNE1s+Y3LbN0fGF3Ahs7OtLHXP/AAb06Lbdp0tLSwC3KJiMwg Kn+Y/PU8Cx8iHzgvZIqBxIZY0JbDoaFC1hp9kavHgAXIvqtPU/wX43I/aQuoVMrZC/JH FEaalWg6FqNVKMzsgVXnLARUWzAFj6ZU2PFBxB9lNt1Gxv8OXugQMMNJb/VZzii/S8Gg w95GKB/lYKQvjieQs906qdwx1p8qJCO48GftebtSx0gSDSQxlP5Un1EWs+6rvx+DNzzG xEg5Ylf5jEv2sf9x5FWrQcYsQ+vt+z8PYQWj/PtjLoeukbhuf9GNw6f9WaLlghgBn9e1 BG2g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.132.215 with SMTP id o84mr19338874ioi.36.1439150395644; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 12:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kmacybsd@gmail.com Received: by 10.36.29.193 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.29.193 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:59:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 12:59:55 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vb1tDher1lHibeeAx1XzUrigUeU Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: "K. Macy" To: Bill Sorenson Cc: Kevin Bowling , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 19:59:56 -0000 I'm eager to encourage wider adoption of FreeBSD to the point where I'm quite comfortable making myself unpopular with its inner circle by criticizing project dynamics that hinder that. Nonetheless, I don't agree that this is a particularly rewarding investment of project resources. Please bear in mind that the number of developer man hours of that caliber is extremely limited. Working on SPARC only makes sense for a developer who wants to have a free hand in making changes to the MD code that he simply can't on x86 or simply really enjoys working on it as a niche platform. The return on investment of sustaining a marginal architecture represented only by outdated hardware is really vanishingly small vis a vis supporting recent laptops, better support for newer cloud platforms, and countless other areas where FreeBSD is struggling to keep up with the Joneses. I'm not saying that people who currently work on SPARC should stop doing so. I'm simply pointing out that as avenues for facilitating wider use of FreeBSD go, it's a bit lacklustre. -K On Aug 9, 2015 10:47 AM, "Bill Sorenson" wrote: > I have done much convincing with regard to new hardware. It always happens > eventually. But many companies I deal with are in a colo, don't care about > power consumption (yet) and are reluctant to quit paying for rack space > they think they might want. They move very slowly. I'd love to have them > all by new modern hardware, believe you me. > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > > > On 8/5/2015 12:10 PM, Bill Sorenson wrote: > > > >> I have been advised to post this in this list. I was going to rewrite > this > >> a bit but I'm not sure what parts people will be interested. Anyway: > >> > >> > >> I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple > >> platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with BSD on > >> some of the lesser used platforms. > >> > >> I manage a fair number of systems, most of them running FreeBSD on > 64-bit > >> Intel, but I probably have more sparc64 and powerpc systems running now > >> than on i386. I have made it a bit of a specialty of mine to make use of > >> BSD on existing equipment owned by a customer in a Solaris or OS X (or > >> some > >> other, older Unix...) environment and migrating their special sauce to > run > >> on it (or it could be as simple as setting up a FreeBSD Samba server on > an > >> existing G5 Mac they own). > >> > >> There are a lot of old SunFire servers running Solaris out there that > will > >> take years to die, and a lot of companies aren't excited about buying a > >> lot > >> of new hardware and porting their code over to Linux (thank goodness). > >> When > >> they start to run into software support and management issues, I've > found > >> FreeBSD to be a relatively easy sell. They get an up to date modern OS > >> with > >> modern ports available and usually migrating their C code or perl isn't > >> much of an issue. They get to hold off on buying hardware until there > is a > >> direct need (accounting really loves this). > >> > >> The advantage for me is that when these companies start looking at new > >> hardware with the latest Xeon, they're already running FreeBSD 9.3 or > >> 10.1. > >> Their code is already ported, the software they're now using is already > >> available and works. When they move, its basically a recompile and its > >> good > >> to go. These customers stick to BSD and forget about Linux or paying > >> Oracle > >> more money. Everything just works and they couldn't be happier. > >> > >> I've always been interested in the older and more unusual hardware, its > a > >> big part of how I found a niche in supporting it on a professional > level. > >> Personally I run a sparc64 server, a powerpc G5 Xserve, a Alpha based > >> DS20L > >> running OpenBSD and an old 68k Mac running NetBSD, partly for fun and > >> partly to make sure I can support my clients (ok, the 68k Mac is purely > >> for > >> fun). > >> > >> I've found a lot of value in FreeBSD's support for older platforms for > >> getting my foot in the door with a lot of customers. Yes sparc64 isn't > the > >> future for FreeBSD but I still think it is very much the present. Its > not > >> dead yet, there are a lot of users of this old gear out there if you > know > >> where to look. For a company that has never heard of FreeBSD to adopt it > >> because it will extend the life of their hardware I think that is a very > >> powerful thing. > >> > >> -Bill Sorenson > >> _______________________________________________ > >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > >> " > >> > >> > > If you look around, you'll find many core committers are quite active on > > the ARM and MIPS ports. > > > > SPARC became solidly niche when Oracle bought Sun. Your business model > is > > commendable, and getting people onto FreeBSD makes me happy. But these > > businesses are being penny wise, pound foolish. A $1200 Xeon-D server > > could consolidate (jails) a handful of sun4u systems and pay for itself > in > > electric savings within the year. > > > > I would love to see SPARC support continue simply because it's a gauntlet > > that can eek out bugs. jhb@ gave a good overview of what is needed for > > the toolchain. sun4v support would be another nice thing. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 20:08:41 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029D599D960 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x235.google.com (mail-ob0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB1576AA; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:08:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obbhe7 with SMTP id he7so14582397obb.0; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CQ4kzuo5f6AV7cO1/SJENBZMuXLWfHISKvsCCUGg7H0=; b=yC2YTY2JZB/UF7HtuA9tCKXdOPyOXAk2nK2qPtJQ8APBzJHQUSpNPio6ISyvXvXIYH DeUXZwf5n6d/h0smNr64f7HdpfofIolP8SdG3U0/Fjw/32uVBLlxlkUhe718e7JJxQci RSgxiicN6+J1TMFpwgvIQbB6/Lnd/tQ4DNgvorXhQwJXMokO4jtvc9ZT11S73xrDe5Zn pDv1rMP/Fmn5/bJzOQ/dCHOrP7QjvD3bE9VuM9mv0SWqA2dI9qV8BJd5LpOJgOsTjg1t BJ2uXsx1JO/IrAzJS+yZ3oU04QuhlGE8JM9aICADbKQET/r3VDsT8IbtjOM2C59aElLx TChA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.52.110 with SMTP id s14mr5947925oeo.14.1439150920095; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 15:08:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: "K. Macy" Cc: Kevin Bowling , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 20:08:41 -0000 I don't entirely disagree. As long as sparc64 works I'm glad it stays in. I don't personally see sun4v support being much of a priority, unless Oracle pulls a rabbit out of their hat and makes sparc competitive again. On Aug 9, 2015 2:59 PM, "K. Macy" wrote: > I'm eager to encourage wider adoption of FreeBSD to the point where I'm > quite comfortable making myself unpopular with its inner circle by > criticizing project dynamics that hinder that. Nonetheless, I don't agree > that this is a particularly rewarding investment of project resources. > > Please bear in mind that the number of developer man hours of that caliber > is extremely limited. Working on SPARC only makes sense for a developer who > wants to have a free hand in making changes to the MD code that he simply > can't on x86 or simply really enjoys working on it as a niche platform. The > return on investment of sustaining a marginal architecture represented only > by outdated hardware is really vanishingly small vis a vis supporting > recent laptops, better support for newer cloud platforms, and countless > other areas where FreeBSD is struggling to keep up with the Joneses. > > I'm not saying that people who currently work on SPARC should stop doing > so. I'm simply pointing out that as avenues for facilitating wider use of > FreeBSD go, it's a bit lacklustre. > > -K > On Aug 9, 2015 10:47 AM, "Bill Sorenson" wrote: > >> I have done much convincing with regard to new hardware. It always happens >> eventually. But many companies I deal with are in a colo, don't care about >> power consumption (yet) and are reluctant to quit paying for rack space >> they think they might want. They move very slowly. I'd love to have them >> all by new modern hardware, believe you me. >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kevin Bowling >> wrote: >> >> > On 8/5/2015 12:10 PM, Bill Sorenson wrote: >> > >> >> I have been advised to post this in this list. I was going to rewrite >> this >> >> a bit but I'm not sure what parts people will be interested. Anyway: >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple >> >> platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with BSD >> on >> >> some of the lesser used platforms. >> >> >> >> I manage a fair number of systems, most of them running FreeBSD on >> 64-bit >> >> Intel, but I probably have more sparc64 and powerpc systems running now >> >> than on i386. I have made it a bit of a specialty of mine to make use >> of >> >> BSD on existing equipment owned by a customer in a Solaris or OS X (or >> >> some >> >> other, older Unix...) environment and migrating their special sauce to >> run >> >> on it (or it could be as simple as setting up a FreeBSD Samba server >> on an >> >> existing G5 Mac they own). >> >> >> >> There are a lot of old SunFire servers running Solaris out there that >> will >> >> take years to die, and a lot of companies aren't excited about buying a >> >> lot >> >> of new hardware and porting their code over to Linux (thank goodness). >> >> When >> >> they start to run into software support and management issues, I've >> found >> >> FreeBSD to be a relatively easy sell. They get an up to date modern OS >> >> with >> >> modern ports available and usually migrating their C code or perl isn't >> >> much of an issue. They get to hold off on buying hardware until there >> is a >> >> direct need (accounting really loves this). >> >> >> >> The advantage for me is that when these companies start looking at new >> >> hardware with the latest Xeon, they're already running FreeBSD 9.3 or >> >> 10.1. >> >> Their code is already ported, the software they're now using is already >> >> available and works. When they move, its basically a recompile and its >> >> good >> >> to go. These customers stick to BSD and forget about Linux or paying >> >> Oracle >> >> more money. Everything just works and they couldn't be happier. >> >> >> >> I've always been interested in the older and more unusual hardware, >> its a >> >> big part of how I found a niche in supporting it on a professional >> level. >> >> Personally I run a sparc64 server, a powerpc G5 Xserve, a Alpha based >> >> DS20L >> >> running OpenBSD and an old 68k Mac running NetBSD, partly for fun and >> >> partly to make sure I can support my clients (ok, the 68k Mac is purely >> >> for >> >> fun). >> >> >> >> I've found a lot of value in FreeBSD's support for older platforms for >> >> getting my foot in the door with a lot of customers. Yes sparc64 isn't >> the >> >> future for FreeBSD but I still think it is very much the present. Its >> not >> >> dead yet, there are a lot of users of this old gear out there if you >> know >> >> where to look. For a company that has never heard of FreeBSD to adopt >> it >> >> because it will extend the life of their hardware I think that is a >> very >> >> powerful thing. >> >> >> >> -Bill Sorenson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> >> " >> >> >> >> >> > If you look around, you'll find many core committers are quite active on >> > the ARM and MIPS ports. >> > >> > SPARC became solidly niche when Oracle bought Sun. Your business model >> is >> > commendable, and getting people onto FreeBSD makes me happy. But these >> > businesses are being penny wise, pound foolish. A $1200 Xeon-D server >> > could consolidate (jails) a handful of sun4u systems and pay for itself >> in >> > electric savings within the year. >> > >> > I would love to see SPARC support continue simply because it's a >> gauntlet >> > that can eek out bugs. jhb@ gave a good overview of what is needed for >> > the toolchain. sun4v support would be another nice thing. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> " >> > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 21:54:29 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D02C99E67E for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:54:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vps.rulingia.com (vps.rulingia.com [103.243.244.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vps.rulingia.com", Issuer "CAcert Class 3 Root" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED112B6D; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:54:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from server.rulingia.com (c220-239-242-83.belrs5.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.242.83]) by vps.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id t79LsB36020404 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:54:17 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id t79Ls3h5081070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:54:03 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.9/8.14.9/Submit) id t79Ls3KE081054; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:54:03 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:54:03 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Bill Sorenson Cc: "K. Macy" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Kevin Bowling Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Y5rl02BVI9TCfPar" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 21:54:29 -0000 --Y5rl02BVI9TCfPar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Aug 9, 2015 2:59 PM, "K. Macy" wrote: > Please bear in mind that the number of developer man hours of that caliber > is extremely limited. Working on SPARC only makes sense for a developer w= ho > wants to have a free hand in making changes to the MD code that he simply > can't on x86 or simply really enjoys working on it as a niche platform. T= he > return on investment of sustaining a marginal architecture represented on= ly > by outdated hardware is really vanishingly small vis a vis supporting > recent laptops, better support for newer cloud platforms, and countless > other areas where FreeBSD is struggling to keep up with the Joneses. > > I'm not saying that people who currently work on SPARC should stop doing > so. I'm simply pointing out that as avenues for facilitating wider use of > FreeBSD go, it's a bit lacklustre. On 2015-Aug-09 15:08:39 -0500, Bill Sorenson wro= te: >I don't entirely disagree. As long as sparc64 works I'm glad it stays in. I >don't personally see sun4v support being much of a priority, unless Oracle >pulls a rabbit out of their hat and makes sparc competitive again. IMHO, FreeBSD/sparc64 is currently in a very similar situation to what FreeBSD/alpha was in 2007-8: The architecture has been taken over by a vendor who has no interest in its future and, as a result, the number of FreeBSD developers who are both interested in supporting it and have the technical acumen to do so is diminishing. SPARC has the advantage that it was much more popular than AXP so there's a lot more surplus hardware floating around (though the lack of sun4v support means that not all of it can be used with FreeBSD). At this stage, it's not clear that SPARC has the critical mass of interest needed to ensure its ongoing viability. Continuing to support an architecture incurs a non-zero cost to the Project as a whole so continuing to suppport SPARC needs to demonstrate a benefit to justify that cost. The costs include: - Whilst sparc64 remains tied to gcc4.2.1, FreeBSD as a whole can't take advantage of newer C constructs. - Developer resources need to be spent ensuring that changes don't break sparc64 (and, potentially, worthwhile features won't be implemented in FreeBSD as a whole because supporting sparc64 is too hard). The benefits include: - Having a native big-endian architecture to catch endian-dependent bugs. - Advocacy - this thread demonstrates that people have built a business around FreeBSD/sparc64 and, in the absence of sparc64, they would move to a different OS. --=20 Peter Jeremy --Y5rl02BVI9TCfPar Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJVx8v7XxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFRUIyOTg2QzMwNjcxRTc0RTY1QzIyN0Ux NkE1OTdBMEU0QTIwQjM0AAoJEBall6Dkogs0aQkP/AmBK//OcL6Zr6RE87Zv/ppv kYar2Vh04RCys1/6Kn4E5u7CYPopZCQOCm4hLvXv0OMsxdnaULI/nYlFMM8kJHZ/ a5ZJCOgMCaeL0nHN3gu9gFIO9HmhW1HJ1bh1EkYy6XW9Yk8rCZxHDuvBGlrUFZiG +edk6m4y9oz2gzDE7AFZoq/XCta5QBfbjMA0W9bCv0D3FI/hID/QLuqPBPsXhP8o nX/6vY1QoMMt/yElu9ROdv5Y6CqOseQnpW/Zw/SKkdyGest3o4glBwArUnBfly5D VDFvsSQILGA0hP4sKskdmkrg3rd/gN669pCcxf1keR0AZ+cPAjnpiP4t093Drnh3 QKemBnmxO83Al+NxyWKM5t+w+ZSDa1KIPtleKsjflfiYKUrJwsEaq1qeU+dBkwGy te9oBJsb7/UKisBh4OstBE5IOwBXG1comgcsg/Y/PmWM2koEcBUTvwjiiNWJn//Y CHdau9j81Gl7SM3dIpBeFDYQ2/6EP7LjUawcWwULBN8bf10vZW6lVGcGQ3Ozw9gf 4aS1DE1cSoIJkFYpvMbxmR94n9ZFZbzk7/bwgdOEnR2mcA8U3bVp0lT3PlIf+xCH Jbz+TEOoB8uTOx91Tnhto/M7a0as1wkYXXvTGwfJ2++fXneJyXoSrinSgE/GSaEX fKlxTIBmKKdcpHSl+HI0 =UOne -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y5rl02BVI9TCfPar-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 23:26:29 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E113099D993 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D49782; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by oiev193 with SMTP id v193so49163873oie.3; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+3wF0QNNXgCFPYX8g/qkNAl7T3JXJ3bO6iPl+3EVu3k=; b=tVcTD23uH1FXf9i0RkjpkC68HgfcawGcdWXTtUMYtzmaZUc4SeTzzd2VmwYmWxM17o sw8riK2j8qQ6VBNc9GcIDriFSNpwyf5pGwh3coVHkoD4U8lH1spWJV3Ora7tjJCQQeBp pvowLsOkhGn9NOR6VBUaoHBRg0MLPYDs3tRu+lv55nMbx6KQOguhdedgxL99732t6RLB 3ZEXXql8LmwZfdI1ZBrQlxQWxccNZAq/GdZWwTsqT5sNMF9QE+sdpSFNfK1VhU3IRiW4 w8V0B8mVAQj5Z6/1mdteYYzzrWbRNAXHahT3lCVqrDAe4qitoCtdFtY99upaqzYfdqAN aECQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.73.21 with SMTP id w21mr16214793oia.23.1439162788775; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:26:28 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Kevin Bowling , Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "K. Macy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:26:30 -0000 For what it's worth I'm not opposed to relegating tier 2 platforms to an external toolchain. I'm not building a product out of FreeBSD on sparc, and I already use GCC from ports where clang is unavailable. If it means killing GPL code in base and using libdispatch I think that is probably worth it. I am on the side of rolling in OS X technology into FreeBSD. It's one of the advantages the license brings. We get ZFS, dtrace, OS X stuff. Forgive my ignorance though but I am curious as to the benefit of having libdispatch in base vs being a ports dependency. Is there much in the base system where it would be used? And if libdispatch were a port dependency on by default, in tier 2 land where we must build ports ourselves anyway, we could build without it or live with that port being broken. -Bill Sorenson On Aug 9, 2015 5:29 PM, "Jordan Hubbard" wrote: > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 2:54 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > > At this stage, it's not clear that SPARC has the critical mass of > interest > > needed to ensure its ongoing viability. Continuing to support an > > architecture incurs a non-zero cost to the Project as a whole so > continuing > > to suppport SPARC needs to demonstrate a benefit to justify that cost. > > > > The costs include: > > - Whilst sparc64 remains tied to gcc4.2.1, FreeBSD as a whole can't tak= e > > advantage of newer C constructs. > > I can speak to that a bit=E2=80=A6 I went through a bit of a kerfuffle w= ith the > project when I was agitating to get libdispatch incorporated into base so > that the project could have a decent multi-threading programming paradigm > (with none of the perils of pthreads) at its core on which to build futur= e > async, multicore-aware applications. That was=E2=80=99t just a pipe drea= m, either, > as I watched that exact evolution occur (and continue) in OS X and iOS. > It=E2=80=99s tried and tested and it Just Works across a wider applicatio= n base > than any Unix-derived system to date has ever even contemplated, much les= s > achieved. > > However, the need to support non-blocks aware compilers basically killed > the notion of pursuing that in the project. Yes, you can use libdispatch > without blocks, but it=E2=80=99s far less useful that way, and since my p= ersonal > needs are more than met by the amd64 architecture, one that by any metric > has become dominant in the industry, it was simply far more logical to > pursue that work in a fork (again!) and I stopped agitating for it. > > Now, should FreeBSD start insisting that clang support is mandatory to be > a tier 1 architecture and that tier 2 architectures should build with > external toolchains (on which they can also build with NO_FOO where FOO i= s > any feature that requires clang) then perhaps that might be a good time t= o > start thinking about bringing some of the OS X technologies back into the > fold. Until then, FreeBSD will of necessity be occupying a niche somewhe= re > in-between the original FreeBSD, where we made a deliberate choice to foc= us > on Intel and only Intel, and NetBSD. > > - Jordan > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Aug 9 23:29:50 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D7499DA62 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:29:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com [17.158.232.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C6D6977; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:29:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from [10.20.30.57] (75-101-82-48.static.sonic.net [75.101.82.48]) by nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NSU00GGB6HAFG30@nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com>; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:29:36 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-08-09_02:2015-08-07,2015-08-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1508090392 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Jordan Hubbard In-reply-to: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 15:29:34 -0700 Cc: Bill Sorenson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "K. Macy" , Kevin Bowling Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> To: Peter Jeremy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 00:20:03 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:29:50 -0000 > On Aug 9, 2015, at 2:54 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: >=20 > At this stage, it's not clear that SPARC has the critical mass of = interest > needed to ensure its ongoing viability. Continuing to support an > architecture incurs a non-zero cost to the Project as a whole so = continuing > to suppport SPARC needs to demonstrate a benefit to justify that cost. >=20 > The costs include: > - Whilst sparc64 remains tied to gcc4.2.1, FreeBSD as a whole can't = take > advantage of newer C constructs. I can speak to that a bit=E2=80=A6 I went through a bit of a kerfuffle = with the project when I was agitating to get libdispatch incorporated = into base so that the project could have a decent multi-threading = programming paradigm (with none of the perils of pthreads) at its core = on which to build future async, multicore-aware applications. That = was=E2=80=99t just a pipe dream, either, as I watched that exact = evolution occur (and continue) in OS X and iOS. It=E2=80=99s tried and = tested and it Just Works across a wider application base than any = Unix-derived system to date has ever even contemplated, much less = achieved. However, the need to support non-blocks aware compilers basically killed = the notion of pursuing that in the project. Yes, you can use = libdispatch without blocks, but it=E2=80=99s far less useful that way, = and since my personal needs are more than met by the amd64 architecture, = one that by any metric has become dominant in the industry, it was = simply far more logical to pursue that work in a fork (again!) and I = stopped agitating for it. Now, should FreeBSD start insisting that clang support is mandatory to = be a tier 1 architecture and that tier 2 architectures should build with = external toolchains (on which they can also build with NO_FOO where FOO = is any feature that requires clang) then perhaps that might be a good = time to start thinking about bringing some of the OS X technologies back = into the fold. Until then, FreeBSD will of necessity be occupying a = niche somewhere in-between the original FreeBSD, where we made a = deliberate choice to focus on Intel and only Intel, and NetBSD. - Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 01:13:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD16B998223 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:13:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (nk11p03mm-asmtpout002.mac.com [17.158.232.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5E62D96; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:13:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from [10.20.30.57] (75-101-82-48.static.sonic.net [75.101.82.48]) by nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NSU007CBE2W6710@nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com>; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:13:46 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-08-09_02:2015-08-07,2015-08-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1508100021 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Jordan Hubbard In-reply-to: Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:13:44 -0700 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> To: Bill Sorenson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:13:47 -0000 > On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:26 PM, Bill Sorenson = wrote: >=20 > Forgive my ignorance though but I am curious as to the benefit of = having > libdispatch in base vs being a ports dependency. Is there much in the = base > system where it would be used?=20 Well, it=E2=80=99s one of those libraries like libc and libpthreads - = lots of things start to depend on such foundation technologies pretty = quickly. Libdispatch, for example, is depended on by Libnotify, which = is key to distributed notifications on the system. Various things in = Libc want to post notifications when various key system resources = change, in turn, so they depend on Libnotify. Libdispatch itself, when = done =E2=80=9Call the way=E2=80=9D, requires some kernel primitives = (pthread_workqueue) to be even more efficient, though it can make do = without. It=E2=80=99s easier (and far less difficult to unravel = dependencies) if you just think of these libraries as all part of a = single gestalt. That is why OS X has Libsystem - an umbrella framework which contains = the common object runtime (retain / release / etc), the crypto routines, = libdispatch, libnotify, XPC, etc. Every executable =E2=80=9Cbelow and = including the GUI apps=E2=80=9D just depends on libSystem, which gives = it a very rich runtime and the opportunities for additional layering. = Things like libdispatch and asl can use the same retain/release = functions as the ObjectiveC runtime uses, for example, and you see this = expressed up through their own APIs with calls like dispatch_retain() = and asl_release() (and foo_object_t=E2=80=99s that support those = semantics). All of this =E2=80=9Cbedrock=E2=80=9D is an integral part of any = environment where the multi-threaded / memory managed object programming = paradigm is essentially baked in to the fundamentals of the system and = developers aren't constantly forced to ask themselves =E2=80=9CIs this = call thread safe? Do I need to put my own locks around it?=E2=80=9D So yeah, you could put it into ports, but then you wouldn=E2=80=99t = really have a common runtime on which to build higher layers, you=E2=80=99= d just have a derivative platform again because anyone wanting to build = those higher level things (and I can certainly elaborate on that if = desired) needs to essentially build their own base out of base + ports. Which is not to say that I think everything needs to be in base by any = stretch. Not arguing for emacs. Not arguing for python (though I know = that one comes up periodically). Just arguing for the basic (2) and (3) = level APIs to be extended a bit further so that really basic things like = leveraging multi-core CPUs better, having more asynchronous interfaces, = and having the system support notifications work. - Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 04:34:37 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA1B998EF2 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:34:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (nk11p03mm-asmtpout002.mac.com [17.158.232.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 155D611B; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:34:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from [10.20.30.57] (75-101-82-48.static.sonic.net [75.101.82.48]) by nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NSU00JWXNDL5D40@nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com>; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:34:36 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-08-09_02:2015-08-07,2015-08-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1508100083 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Jordan Hubbard In-reply-to: Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 21:34:33 -0700 Cc: Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> To: Adrian Chadd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:34:37 -0000 > On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Adrian Chadd = wrote: >=20 > What's missing is someone funding / finishing the push to external > toolchain support for all platforms. Does someone have that condensed down to a set of bullet points? Which = platforms are mandatory and which are optional? Is the task considered = done when one can do: # cd /usr/src # make buildworld buildkernel USE_EXT_TOOLCHAIN=3Dyes = EXT_TOOLCHAIN_PORT=3Dgcc-4.9 (or whatever the suitable incantation is?) Does it have to work for multiple values of =E2=80=9Cexternal = toolchain=E2=80=9D? Is it a safe assumption to just say that =E2=80=9Cpor= t install FOO=E2=80=9D will be a sufficient prerequisite and = /usr/local/bin/cc is all one needs to reference as the right compiler = driver (for the C stuff obviously). If anyone is going to fund anything, they will want a very specific set = of deliverables to fund, since it=E2=80=99s otherwise kind of a blank = check with a completely arbitrary outcome. > What's also missing a little bit here is the tier-1-ness of the > external toolchain support by the people using/developing other > toolchains. Not sure what that means? > It's basically there. There are some rough edges, but since the > compiler-developer people aren't using it and the non-x86-building > people aren't being forced to use it, the development inches along > very slowly. Again, maybe you could qualify just what that means. I don=E2=80=99t = know what moving parts are even really being described here. My life is = clang / LLVM and has been for a very long time - I don=E2=80=99t even = know what gcc is anymore. :) > If you'd like to erm, "rush" this along, we should actively start the > "deorbit gcc-4.2 by freebsd-11" and "disconnect gcc-4.2 from the -head > build" movement now, get those bits done, and start arm-twisting to > get the last bits finished. If gcc 4.2 de-orbits then that means that clang / LLVM can take its = place as the =E2=80=9Cdefault toolchain=E2=80=9D in base and any other = value of GCC (which?) comes from ports? - Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 05:33:18 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4498999DDCB for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22d.google.com (mail-io0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07EEDCAE for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmacybsd@gmail.com) Received: by ioii16 with SMTP id i16so159469291ioi.0 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=HVzsoszkwWui7Utj5ch78t/+wj5Prb8WyP+9ohacHb8=; b=Jzn940tBJ//EIXdFXmlZUepQhnjBX3Iht/TMNLO3AtTDrkGEJPf2M2UJRyAGUwk2QS Ad23Q12fYaao7KIWijKTBMs4banvWrycd5NULduVvO8vKAvaj/sYy+hTkJEc4jfcyCyt vJASip8wb+qJLXgM66Tl7/WrWfMUBpCRpB/EX2Kami4d6q9bZazdsbI2Xt9UhBHYV7g7 ChuvbRAG0sE4FPsSzLeAd7QkSJvqPSOvWohybUDEsWGZ7QkWl7bIfaerpWxEDvUhJ6wr 81XX0xUeihedP8c3p1yWpGKhea01o20O85Ivn9aE2Mie11mkqBC6RPkVe+ug2qZDoaM/ EgQA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.137.208 with SMTP id t77mr17701555ioi.2.1439184797357; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kmacybsd@gmail.com Received: by 10.36.29.193 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:33:17 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: gLz99y-ljBWJTPN00Nm6ZYZkSGs Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: "K. Macy" To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:33:18 -0000 On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Hi, > > What's missing is someone funding / finishing the push to external > toolchain support for all platforms. > > What's also missing a little bit here is the tier-1-ness of the > external toolchain support by the people using/developing other > toolchains. > > It's basically there. There are some rough edges, but since the > compiler-developer people aren't using it and the non-x86-building > people aren't being forced to use it, the development inches along > very slowly. > > If you'd like to erm, "rush" this along, we should actively start the > "deorbit gcc-4.2 by freebsd-11" and "disconnect gcc-4.2 from the -head > build" movement now, get those bits done, and start arm-twisting to > get the last bits finished. > You've basically answered the question yourself: if FreeBSD developers want this to actually happen there needs to be a simple agreement that gcc users have either switched to an external toolchain by the current best case date for -11 or their respective architectures will be removed from HEAD. They're of course welcome to maintain it in a branch in svn or git. It's ultimately the responsibility for maintainers of the individual architectures to make their platforms an asset and not a liability. -K From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 05:54:41 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FFB99E278 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:54:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (nk11p03mm-asmtpout002.mac.com [17.158.232.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 530AE3CB; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:54:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from [10.20.30.57] (75-101-82-48.static.sonic.net [75.101.82.48]) by nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NSU0013AR2DID50@nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com>; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:54:16 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-08-09_02:2015-08-07,2015-08-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1508100107 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Jordan Hubbard In-reply-to: Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:54:13 -0700 Cc: Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> To: Adrian Chadd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:54:41 -0000 > On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Adrian Chadd = wrote: >=20 > It's supposed to be (for mips): >=20 > pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain > make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... >=20 > .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working > out of the box. OK, so here=E2=80=99s what I would propose (and I would even, gulp, be = willing to toss a little engineering resources at it if it makes it = actually happen): 1. We add some sort of arch-bootstrap rule to /usr/src/Makefile which = does the following: 1a. If TARGET_ARCH is one of the =E2=80=9Cclang supported=E2=80=9D= architectures, it sets some =E2=80=9Cuse internal compiler=E2=80=9D = flags and declares an early victory. Go to step 1d. 1b. If TARGET_ARCH is one of those =E2=80=9CNo one can explain = to Adrian just how this even works=E2=80=9D then it just falls out of = -current until someone can do steps 1b and 1d. 1c. If TARGET_ARCH is one of the =E2=80=9Cexternal toolchain=E2=80= =9D supported architectures then it does the appropriate ``pkg info = blah'' introspection to see if the appropriate toolchain is already = installed, and if so, we go to step 1d. Otherwise, it goes =E2=80=9CBleah= ! You must: pkg install 6502-weird-ancient-gcc 6502-apple][-runtime=E2=80= =9D and aborts, so the user can then make the determination about = whether to cruft up their build machine with those packages and retry = the operation. 1d. All of the appropriate COMPILER_FOO variables are set to = compile for TARGET_ARCH and away we go. 2. Having done #1, we de-orbit the base version of gcc and let clang = take its rightful place as the only =E2=80=9Cinternal compiler=E2=80=9D = supported in base. None of the weird architecture folks can complain = that we just broke -current for them because the arch-bootstrap rule = will do all the right things for their architecture (or if it doesn=E2=80=99= t, they know what to hack until it does) and steer the user in the = direction of the appropriate package(s). Am I missing anything? Is it really that obvious? It seems I must be = missing something if this is truly just a 2 step process. :) - Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 06:29:50 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CA699E933 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:29:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x233.google.com (mail-ob0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 561EBAAD; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:29:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obbhe7 with SMTP id he7so20741701obb.0; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:29:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=/P4G6rnMBML6V387MViL3BaMr2hVt1twb009sAryw80=; b=Xyx6NAiNsQS9FvJM4lBZEDrdUqsDlFW0vvAi76kudETnBWW+g8SyFCNSB81Dl/dNsq XkR4UjhOtqBFhINX15RvqiigMOl2ACcsgrC1yGYs9MXBhor5DIY5yZYssAX8/YNkaQxq W9kDpaua4Ra/8TPB2jizxOe27kQgYNvEVdKj3W2NE+JLKmktsrscs7rVi94kWlNrrWm6 Yk+vJb9FaqZnRQCVy1O/XkcHd36Y43gmP6LRlTmtQEVv2Bkig31JCnS6/tMn8gwbORdI hZvxQA4nJlz4zC1HsY+GfLOR93gb3PgprMzDSteBWs2DYA1YwxDrr4vvojmUOHSOoIvi oUJA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.93.168 with SMTP id cv8mr18964913oeb.82.1439188189452; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:29:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:29:49 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Kevin Bowling , Jordan Hubbard , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Dimitry Andric , "K. Macy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:29:50 -0000 I'm worried this little thread I started is becoming a place where things are getting done. Golly. -Bill Sorenson On Aug 10, 2015 1:03 AM, "Adrian Chadd" wrote: > poke dim and the other compiler-y people. They have a plan, and it's > about time we started the deorbit. :) > > > -a > > On 9 August 2015 at 22:54, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Adrian Chadd > wrote: > >> > >> It's supposed to be (for mips): > >> > >> pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain > >> make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... > >> > >> .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working > >> out of the box. > > > > OK, so here=E2=80=99s what I would propose (and I would even, gulp, be = willing > to toss a little engineering resources at it if it makes it actually > happen): > > > > 1. We add some sort of arch-bootstrap rule to /usr/src/Makefile which > does the following: > > > > 1a. If TARGET_ARCH is one of the =E2=80=9Cclang supported=E2=80= =9D > architectures, it sets some =E2=80=9Cuse internal compiler=E2=80=9D flags= and declares an > early victory. Go to step 1d. > > > > 1b. If TARGET_ARCH is one of those =E2=80=9CNo one can explain = to Adrian > just how this even works=E2=80=9D then it just falls out of -current unti= l someone > can do steps 1b and 1d. > > > > 1c. If TARGET_ARCH is one of the =E2=80=9Cexternal toolchain=E2= =80=9D supported > architectures then it does the appropriate ``pkg info blah'' introspectio= n > to see if the appropriate toolchain is already installed, and if so, we g= o > to step 1d. Otherwise, it goes =E2=80=9CBleah! You must: pkg install > 6502-weird-ancient-gcc 6502-apple][-runtime=E2=80=9D and aborts, so the u= ser can > then make the determination about whether to cruft up their build machine > with those packages and retry the operation. > > > > 1d. All of the appropriate COMPILER_FOO variables are set to > compile for TARGET_ARCH and away we go. > > > > 2. Having done #1, we de-orbit the base version of gcc and let clang > take its rightful place as the only =E2=80=9Cinternal compiler=E2=80=9D s= upported in base. > None of the weird architecture folks can complain that we just broke > -current for them because the arch-bootstrap rule will do all the right > things for their architecture (or if it doesn=E2=80=99t, they know what t= o hack > until it does) and steer the user in the direction of the appropriate > package(s). > > > > Am I missing anything? Is it really that obvious? It seems I must be > missing something if this is truly just a 2 step process. :) > > > > - Jordan > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 07:26:19 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C092D99E455 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from nk11p03mm-asmtp001.mac.com (nk11p03mm-asmtpout001.mac.com [17.158.232.236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7890122; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from [10.20.30.57] (75-101-82-48.static.sonic.net [75.101.82.48]) by nk11p03mm-asmtp001.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NSU00BL5VARE340@nk11p03mm-asmtp001.mac.com>; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:25:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-08-09_02:2015-08-07,2015-08-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1508100121 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Jordan Hubbard In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 00:25:40 -0700 Cc: Dimitry Andric , Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> To: Adrian Chadd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:26:19 -0000 > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Chadd = wrote: >=20 > poke dim and the other compiler-y people. They have a plan, and it's > about time we started the deorbit. :) Well seriously though, let=E2=80=99s also take this opportunity to clean = things up with the build process and maybe also some of the release bits = too, since they=E2=80=99re fairly intrinsically tied together. I tried doing a =E2=80=9Cmake release=E2=80=9D in /usr/src today, = harkening back to the days when I was Release Engineer for FreeBSD and = that single command was all one needed to get a .iso image and some boot = floppy / QIC tape suitable media (!) for the i386. Obviously there are = more release products now, from single disc ISOs to DVDs to USB boot = device installers, and I quickly saw that all of these various targets = had moved into /usr/src/release (OK, that seems reasonable) but even = then, and after reading /usr/src/release/Makefile, I could not get = =E2=80=9Cmake cdrom=E2=80=9D to work. Looking at = https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/releng/release-build.= html references a script that doesn=E2=80=99t even exist anymore, so the = docs are clearly out of date. My point, and I do have one, is that while we=E2=80=99re cleaning things = up, and I think we should, there should be some clear goals to what = we=E2=80=99re doing: 1. The =E2=80=9Cbuildworld, buildkernel and release=E2=80=9D targets = should DTRT with a known and documented set of target switches like = TARGET_ARCH and whatever else is deemed =E2=80=9Cminimally necessary=E2=80= =9D to cross-build, or self-host for that matter, on any given platform. = Where self-hosting is the scenario, the defaults should also be set = reasonably enough to make those build targets Just Work with a minimum = [absence] of superfluous decorative flags or variables. In short, the Principle Of Least Astonishment is an excellent guiding = principle to follow and the minute someone says =E2=80=9Cwell, it=E2=80=99= s totally obvious how to build for the beagleboner 9000, you just go to = http://www.4chan.org/os-stuff/giggle/he-said-boner/davesdocs/howtomakefree= bsd.html and follow the instructions there after also customizing the = first 30 lines of the whiffle.sh script=E2=80=9D, we should be allowed = to kill them and eat their liver with some fava beans and a nice = chianti. Then we should automate it and document it on our own web = site. 2. We need to define what the targeted architectures are for =E2=80=9Croun= d one=E2=80=9D of this because reading = https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/arch= s.html is only partially enlightening. According to that, only i386 and = amd64 are tier 1 and tier 2 are ARM, pc98 (really??), powerpc and = sparc64. In Tier 3, in a lonely classification all by itself, is mips. = Even if we adopt all of them, which of those require an external = toolchain and which will build with the current clang? If you read = papers like = http://llvm.org/devmtg/2014-04/PDFs/LightningTalks/2014-3-31_ClangTargetSu= pport_LighteningTalk.pdf you could easily develop the impression that = even its own developers aren=E2=80=99t so sure, but I=E2=80=99m guessing = we have a bit better of an idea than that, no? 3. We need to collect all of the cross-building voodoo in one place and = then set about encoding it into the Makefiles such that even a = reasonably intelligent golden retriever can build one or all of the = supported target architectures. For extra credit, they should also be = able to pop out an installation image for it since the Release Engineer = often has better things to do than build custom images for folks, but = that=E2=80=99s also the only way to really TEST anything so =E2=80=9Cself = service=E2=80=9D should definitely be possible and even sort of fun. 4. We need to de-orbit gcc as previously discussed since nobody can = claim that this is regressive motion if there is a plan for the 88000 = and i860 ports and they even work better than they did before. I have a lab (several actually). I have engineers. How can we help. - Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 09:00:59 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97BB699D4BA for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:00:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 269B0217; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:00:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: by wibhh20 with SMTP id hh20so141062781wib.0; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=WgfFADROFBL8MLqSzgoLWesxPsBrDDQ95/rcVTdvcxM=; b=z4WDiDOIFCZVGEfcSKVr2wgZDgZ1cswsuWWfGILMDB01rhoOwJSwlB4QKSIvVwTzJ1 WSI/7zqSEemQuPQTuFPUshiU/ptYF9FfNwj8Zlmegem9mVxG/z+lGelEiW6IBuzj8Wia 3yCT+CQUV2hHGpYS8/Tm1cAE8Qc2Ux12K6JWiSLqZ3Iwk0XqwMeCWo6bfYEuR9lClkxD 5oFe8482ocytYYPOrTvanaB4jWZI38mQzqqc1stqo+0cJKJxy9TLNOBJJCPnl/QjxA1U Z8N2jmUkb7meheZa/Vo4UP1sGzIBGkLQUS8Faqr48tePn12juz4S/I3uxWKdOyYzJsIf N8yQ== X-Received: by 10.194.61.10 with SMTP id l10mr41554779wjr.138.1439197257551; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net ([2001:41d0:8:db4c::1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fb3sm12649983wib.21.2015.08.10.02.00.55 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Aug 2015 02:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Baptiste Daroussin Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:00:54 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "K. Macy" , Kevin Bowling , Bill Sorenson Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150810090054.GF96980@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w3uUfsyyY1Pqa/ej" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:00:59 -0000 --w3uUfsyyY1Pqa/ej Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 09:34:33PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >=20 > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > >=20 > > What's missing is someone funding / finishing the push to external > > toolchain support for all platforms. >=20 > Does someone have that condensed down to a set of bullet points? Which p= latforms are mandatory and which are optional? Is the task considered done= when one can do: Well external toolchain is know to work properly with sparc64 (without patc= hes) with mips with patches, I used to work with powerpc64 (haven't tried others= ). This was based on gcc 4.9 and has been updated to 5.2 recently. What is missing so far is the chicken egg problem that happen once you have= boot your newly built FreeBSD because you do not have a compiler, one would need= to work on a mechanism to be able to provide at least all the set of packages = until having a working compiler so one can pkg install gcc. (there is work in that direction but not that much, at least now installworld is installing stuff = this is usable as a sysroot (in 99% of the cases)). >=20 > # cd /usr/src > # make buildworld buildkernel USE_EXT_TOOLCHAIN=3Dyes EXT_TOOLCHAIN_PORT= =3Dgcc-4.9 (or whatever the suitable incantation is?) >=20 > Does it have to work for multiple values of =E2=80=9Cexternal toolchain= =E2=80=9D? Is it a safe assumption to just say that =E2=80=9Cport install = FOO=E2=80=9D will be a sufficient prerequisite and /usr/local/bin/cc is all= one needs to reference as the right compiler driver (for the C stuff obvio= usly). >=20 > If anyone is going to fund anything, they will want a very specific set o= f deliverables to fund, since it=E2=80=99s otherwise kind of a blank check = with a completely arbitrary outcome. >=20 > > What's also missing a little bit here is the tier-1-ness of the > > external toolchain support by the people using/developing other > > toolchains. >=20 > Not sure what that means? me neither :) >=20 > > It's basically there. There are some rough edges, but since the > > compiler-developer people aren't using it and the non-x86-building > > people aren't being forced to use it, the development inches along > > very slowly. >=20 > Again, maybe you could qualify just what that means. I don=E2=80=99t kno= w what moving parts are even really being described here. My life is clang= / LLVM and has been for a very long time - I don=E2=80=99t even know what = gcc is anymore. :) >=20 > > If you'd like to erm, "rush" this along, we should actively start the > > "deorbit gcc-4.2 by freebsd-11" and "disconnect gcc-4.2 from the -head > > build" movement now, get those bits done, and start arm-twisting to > > get the last bits finished. >=20 > If gcc 4.2 de-orbits then that means that clang / LLVM can take its place= as the =E2=80=9Cdefault toolchain=E2=80=9D in base and any other value of = GCC (which?) comes from ports? > That is the plan Best regards, Bapt --w3uUfsyyY1Pqa/ej Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlXIaEYACgkQ8kTtMUmk6EyuXACeOVt268VducpnlIBmcbxC9EoB kvAAni5lX+HlnM2FeEGUqCPqGVD5JY9y =dJkE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w3uUfsyyY1Pqa/ej-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 03:48:36 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109169983D9 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 03:48:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22a.google.com (mail-ig0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEB8AFE6; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 03:48:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by igr7 with SMTP id 7so62076878igr.0; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 20:48:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=e6CN71BRXe674148louAkfV7QyO6gUjJkfOl5ttBkfs=; b=f+gekbu3uvTrjqjKaSVKjIUuwLUQ65lOnimToSU82keAuT2ByxPi5Edap5d7y/FfMO zqQAvo4gEShfX1aOYEBWHUrA72oO/FIk2BjGLbKHRFAibdHKijg6qTdroPJYUwwlZ6+j 10p9UiFYJHTvkG94Q5kqo+jazczpXlOjZzTmz0xxwBreGe74Fu9xFIwNNn0pE08Z340A Fr3g5jt+qB2XT8SNFDD+rawZQcr7xFqJRyz1mchXkEHcAkthVxEZxd99v+XovcDVL6bC Mjz9LaMu1MiiZz1mlQdK+40fMQX8cjiz91/SQVbMyLmSeJHf/gR4PxgwGYUbvZxrRiCf +xaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.128.169 with SMTP id np9mr9287739igb.37.1439178515086; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 20:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.38.133 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:48:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:48:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Adrian Chadd To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:14:03 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 03:48:36 -0000 Hi, What's missing is someone funding / finishing the push to external toolchain support for all platforms. What's also missing a little bit here is the tier-1-ness of the external toolchain support by the people using/developing other toolchains. It's basically there. There are some rough edges, but since the compiler-developer people aren't using it and the non-x86-building people aren't being forced to use it, the development inches along very slowly. If you'd like to erm, "rush" this along, we should actively start the "deorbit gcc-4.2 by freebsd-11" and "disconnect gcc-4.2 from the -head build" movement now, get those bits done, and start arm-twisting to get the last bits finished. I've built and run MIPS and MIPS64 with gcc-4.9 - I'll try gcc-5.x next week now that that's the compiler in the ports system. I'll try to do the same for sparc64. We should do the same for PPC next up. So, who's up for it? Let's just get this gcc-4.2 in base removed already. -adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 05:11:46 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD5099D88C for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:11:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x229.google.com (mail-ig0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 933F134D; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:11:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by igbpg9 with SMTP id pg9so62407744igb.0; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:11:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=p6AKpmpQlI151U09Ih63xLb9RkCkD50yR+rBicGWrmQ=; b=zIOyzxDjKby9JsUMdfxkRt6AA2jCip3xHC6Z76ppLCNA5TiSI/cwzJCn1F4/OV2OG7 ZsjGWbBwenM1vcmdb+lIzk6ly8R/4doHGYzpGGLp1Om0AU6GIHzKEuPn4p0+O6Y/y+Ff TffcF/g9ALW+rc9BC6UMdvQRpnSVd6GtdTZRAm0WYlNSxPFRHRQyPSrusFnvsPFfSqnr 2HhoxzsYGUvTXnzJTtzj/bITphB4nlYc1GToD6je6YBUL4xqTXxw1YxqyOgFlavM4X4o Mq1/tu8WXN8pf5+JyINSj9aqcLAtcx60VJzkL6z2zpvYpW+AGWi8SZgCVQwjOesP3b1Y /kVg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.142.69 with SMTP id ru5mr8690785igb.61.1439183505969; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.38.133 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:11:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Adrian Chadd To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:21:40 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:11:46 -0000 On 9 August 2015 at 21:34, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: >> >> What's missing is someone funding / finishing the push to external >> toolchain support for all platforms. > > Does someone have that condensed down to a set of bullet points? Which p= latforms are mandatory and which are optional? Is the task considered done= when one can do: > > # cd /usr/src > # make buildworld buildkernel USE_EXT_TOOLCHAIN=3Dyes EXT_TOOLCHAIN_PORT= =3Dgcc-4.9 (or whatever the suitable incantation is?) > > Does it have to work for multiple values of =E2=80=9Cexternal toolchain= =E2=80=9D? Is it a safe assumption to just say that =E2=80=9Cport install = FOO=E2=80=9D will be a sufficient prerequisite and /usr/local/bin/cc is all= one needs to reference as the right compiler driver (for the C stuff obvio= usly). > > If anyone is going to fund anything, they will want a very specific set o= f deliverables to fund, since it=E2=80=99s otherwise kind of a blank check = with a completely arbitrary outcome. It's supposed to be (for mips): pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working out of the box. There's also some way involving "X" variables that one can use to point tools and such at non-system-default versions of things, but it's not nicely wrapped up as CROSS_TOOLCHAIN is, and I don't believe it's authoritatively documented (eg in a manpage, or share/examples/.) I get slightly different versions of slightly different things from different people each time I ask. >> What's also missing a little bit here is the tier-1-ness of the >> external toolchain support by the people using/developing other >> toolchains. > > Not sure what that means? The clang folk (eg dim) didn't use the external toolchain stuff the last time I checked. They would create a new branch and import clang into freebsd in it, or just extract it over the top of a freebsd checkout. Ie, the folk that would be the #1 testers and consumers of this stuff don't use it. I don't know if they still do it - we should ask. >> It's basically there. There are some rough edges, but since the >> compiler-developer people aren't using it and the non-x86-building >> people aren't being forced to use it, the development inches along >> very slowly. > > Again, maybe you could qualify just what that means. I don=E2=80=99t kno= w what moving parts are even really being described here. My life is clang= / LLVM and has been for a very long time - I don=E2=80=99t even know what = gcc is anymore. :) See above. :) >> If you'd like to erm, "rush" this along, we should actively start the >> "deorbit gcc-4.2 by freebsd-11" and "disconnect gcc-4.2 from the -head >> build" movement now, get those bits done, and start arm-twisting to >> get the last bits finished. > > If gcc 4.2 de-orbits then that means that clang / LLVM can take its place= as the =E2=80=9Cdefault toolchain=E2=80=9D in base and any other value of = GCC (which?) comes from ports? Right - for those ports that don't currently 'work' stable on clang/llvm, they'd just fail to build unless one defined an external or cross compiler toolchain. -adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 05:27:13 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41ECD99DC33 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE64A66; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 936715607A; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 00:27:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 00:27:12 -0500 From: Mark Linimon To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "K. Macy" , Kevin Bowling , Bill Sorenson Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150810052712.GB20696@lonesome.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:22:11 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:27:13 -0000 On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 09:34:33PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > If anyone is going to fund anything, they will want a very specific > set of deliverables to fund, since it’s otherwise kind of a blank > check with a completely arbitrary outcome. Sign me up! Oh. I misread that. "never mind" mcl From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 05:35:39 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFB999DE6C for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com (mail-io0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 767CBDBE; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by iodd187 with SMTP id d187so159471032iod.2; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=mle7LVumUy/W6ZC4F8RJbWgAL9tdob+OCdqYisdDH6s=; b=wrqku47lqaNFwD1ePsmoML2gPaNJQU4QA1c1dXj+VEvsgPGycQM/jZ4EIOScJXCJ9e +s7fIOoHjOZOWoiEVaTz1VKDLFGF1gHBAhT0Hf8Sh8pznsXqwXmODiSebGJ9VSrzJ18m qu32q9GWfd6mMIPfXue8uOORdaoBV07gAdG2dXMUbO18rrc0IdORBAZbH39oiJ+F+7RH 2/v6A4TiSv5FtW72x8CgTTPWog8Tq+oDl9rWSacaWylvoe4N87XUQb0qPotT5eIMVCdG 2OXRmeskY+mEjsThKvvxIjJKl4hfqIvfOL2b8U6h9z8COu3CF9Ayy4akmyRI92K97rhN mOPA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.164.103 with SMTP id n100mr11195744ioe.123.1439184938992; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.38.133 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:35:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:35:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Adrian Chadd To: "K. Macy" Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:22:24 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:35:39 -0000 Or we could just suggest (hint hint) to the clang people that we're ready to just pull the rip cord and start removing gcc-4.2 as an in-tree compiler, like they actually would like. Then see if people fix the external toolchain. I'm saying "hey, it's almost there, let's do it" and see if the carrot works. :) -adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 06:03:24 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3DA99E40F for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:03:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x234.google.com (mail-ig0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 417ACA0F; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:03:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by igbij6 with SMTP id ij6so63273469igb.1; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:03:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BBXNtNvks72ZbednVHOtFkPegJFQe6v04YJngmVL3EM=; b=VxODrmP/rdIskNPYfHRhDp1C+TLGUnhxbj25TdSHb5a8+krUT/Q815COFhe4VmAxH9 PgeyQjsIWeTGfytffPb2ZxY9qx59PlIf2PBHbzM6a10rvOPSeEi5HmpNWgGsUTX43AHR 0YtfmTJcrXTZVYFynwLWq1Ob29xzQGAj7jlrooPVmc7bywHxx+kAmfTLugh8bMVxRIID UCOnPGjwAg/Do42PWCUNueuGTx1N98O1eUY4SQV3n+MS+q62MOAgpEDSaM2Ovw205zCV VaqhslWAsMnRNqmvsg1PgcTHdxGfKdFcN7PRHBnHN5Na9YzFXr9OsuSvArVKj5V82nSU YiWA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.61.144 with SMTP id p16mr8845355igr.22.1439186603675; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 23:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.38.133 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:03:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:03:23 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Adrian Chadd To: Jordan Hubbard , Dimitry Andric Cc: Bill Sorenson , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:22:37 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:03:24 -0000 poke dim and the other compiler-y people. They have a plan, and it's about time we started the deorbit. :) -a On 9 August 2015 at 22:54, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote= : >> >> It's supposed to be (for mips): >> >> pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain >> make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... >> >> .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working >> out of the box. > > OK, so here=E2=80=99s what I would propose (and I would even, gulp, be wi= lling to toss a little engineering resources at it if it makes it actually = happen): > > 1. We add some sort of arch-bootstrap rule to /usr/src/Makefile which doe= s the following: > > 1a. If TARGET_ARCH is one of the =E2=80=9Cclang supported=E2=80= =9D architectures, it sets some =E2=80=9Cuse internal compiler=E2=80=9D fla= gs and declares an early victory. Go to step 1d. > > 1b. If TARGET_ARCH is one of those =E2=80=9CNo one can explain to= Adrian just how this even works=E2=80=9D then it just falls out of -curren= t until someone can do steps 1b and 1d. > > 1c. If TARGET_ARCH is one of the =E2=80=9Cexternal toolchain=E2= =80=9D supported architectures then it does the appropriate ``pkg info blah= '' introspection to see if the appropriate toolchain is already installed, = and if so, we go to step 1d. Otherwise, it goes =E2=80=9CBleah! You must:= pkg install 6502-weird-ancient-gcc 6502-apple][-runtime=E2=80=9D and abort= s, so the user can then make the determination about whether to cruft up th= eir build machine with those packages and retry the operation. > > 1d. All of the appropriate COMPILER_FOO variables are set to comp= ile for TARGET_ARCH and away we go. > > 2. Having done #1, we de-orbit the base version of gcc and let clang take= its rightful place as the only =E2=80=9Cinternal compiler=E2=80=9D support= ed in base. None of the weird architecture folks can complain that we just= broke -current for them because the arch-bootstrap rule will do all the ri= ght things for their architecture (or if it doesn=E2=80=99t, they know what= to hack until it does) and steer the user in the direction of the appropri= ate package(s). > > Am I missing anything? Is it really that obvious? It seems I must be mi= ssing something if this is truly just a 2 step process. :) > > - Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Aug 10 14:18:02 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFACE99E831 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:18:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x236.google.com (mail-ob0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7D4CAC; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:18:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obbop1 with SMTP id op1so124883513obb.2; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:18:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=67TFp49tUfNoB/0u2PygdcBf0/Xk+8CiapE73YtX9E4=; b=RRjmxqmdou6MtpIE3EghCdoKei1plwYOBETgzusmH4MWiJjE95K38NgCGYH3SymSDy JHlNgdBehDKSyovA61aZuSBMizjb9VGnc3pgm7tT4ZmmU7diczaDXGyUkESzX+2r4ywu 7knOeHBbpgXqq1eZsrw33HeSkOPLlbqmBrw+OFGtyw7jdSAWJk6nTrYFtCBJ1GCa7Uuf CAEMQsZBp8jK4ZcSfMlASHM0wI9vH2uC+9J1luCMmsq3rQqhgurKkpVjs/Hycb+BV/zJ rZiUMHjTlUyCxCpVL6iCKDQ6MprtZVm1hFO+caGWjbkDXx6Khxke15NDO494hQCNFjZy IFZA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.78.197 with SMTP id d5mr19327348oex.67.1439216280896; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:18:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:18:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Adrian Chadd , Dimitry Andric , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:18:02 -0000 > > > > 4. We need to de-orbit gcc as previously discussed since nobody can claim > that this is regressive motion if there is a plan for the 88000 and i860 > ports and they even work better than they did before. > > I have a lab (several actually). I have engineers. How can we help. > > - Jordan > You can break the Apple II and PDP-10 ports all you want as far as I'm concerned. IMO sold since the year 2000 would be a good absolute cutoff date for an architecture if it is necessary. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 02:03:37 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D93D99DB48 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 02:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E995CE9A; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 02:03:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=5uynL2LQXq29gs1HeBYL8SknN4FN6Jo/YsX5NDxBRnk=; b=a3vT+mb3KGvJJ0tEBmFEp2h6aIBWWMwoly2AFoMGaEgT4PQ0UyEd0lMvK8bsFGaBfqBEf2Z4iuyFaR9fb7lvaTUJudNFDGCXO3ep2H9J4fSxFQUHsJOhb89w5xz98rsJnJSKL/OkPg6KrAgGycYKDR6r/0XMfTdv5H2P0G7JGm8=; Received: from [39.255.12.223] (port=30549 helo=X220.alogt.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZOyuc-0041cH-60; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:03:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:03:27 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Hans Petter Selasky Cc: Andriy Gapon , Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: allow ffs & co. a binary search Message-ID: <20150811100327.0d12231f@X220.alogt.com> In-Reply-To: <55C335A7.8020503@selasky.org> References: <20150607081315.7c0f09fb@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <5573EA5E.40806@selasky.org> <20150607195245.62dc191f@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <20150607135453.GH2499@kib.kiev.ua> <558175FA.4040106@FreeBSD.org> <20150617165331.GA2080@kib.kiev.ua> <5582CCF1.8010505@FreeBSD.org> <55C335A7.8020503@selasky.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 02:03:37 -0000 Hi, On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:23:35 +0200 Hans Petter Selasky wrote: > On 06/18/15 15:51, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > On 17/06/2015 19:53, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > >> AFAIR it was about 'sufficiently smart compiler' and the fact that > >> the functions are not on the hottest paths. > > > > It seems that sufficiently smart compilers still do not exist :-) > > At least as far as compilers that are used for compiling FreeBSD > > are considered. > > > > [Offtopic] my impression is that lately smartness of compilers is > > mostly being improved by various tricks and shortcuts (undefined > > behavior, etc), rather than by recognizing patterns in the C code > > that could be turned into more efficient machine code. > > > Has there been any further thoughts on this topic during the summer? > I was just waiting for a clear result. I do not want to write something which is not accepted at the end. > It sounds fair to me that "Sean Eron Anderson's Bit Twiddling Hacks" > can be used in our code instead of a for() loop for the ffs() > function, given that a 2-clause BSD license is fine by Sean. > Typically the compilers can expand for loops using -O3, but I've > never seen a compiler yet that convert for loops into a simpler > functions where no constants are involved. Why not detect the built-in functions and do the binary search when they are not available and leave the original implementation for all other sizes? > > For sake of readability I would leave the old implementation under > "#if 0" so that readers not familiar with binary tricks can > understand the code. > > Any strong objections? > A clear route would be good. I could do it then. Erich From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 03:26:44 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86AE99FB75 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 03:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B713F193A; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 03:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 1DFB55607A; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:26:38 -0500 From: Mark Linimon To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "K. Macy" , Dimitry Andric , Kevin Bowling , Bill Sorenson Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150811032637.GB20026@lonesome.com> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 04:28:39 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 03:26:44 -0000 On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 12:25:40AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > pc98 (really??) Yes, the guys over there just quietly keep it working, it seems. It doesn't seem to get in the way of anything. mcl From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 04:56:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B770099E562 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 04:56:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Received: from mail-pd0-f169.google.com (mail-pd0-f169.google.com [209.85.192.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8947AB8D for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 04:56:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Received: by pdrh1 with SMTP id h1so61156314pdr.0 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:56:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=Qt0zeiG+5uSs1/GEkTCvKQbQODFpSCAruUP0miUgvZo=; b=JbpPK9J04pJDP/FbA3/2iTrTFgQVdGDFpvli0ztEJ3/fUmAprFAHWyr2vRxxJQjChm OblEp5T+eywJrwQniokpC/FRK3Jl2G9QSYttx1YeJlNVp69d8NbmFrYQhNGf/lgvs2a9 aPoV3EpDE0iLIFZ1RbpqFBPwNMthsIaMMowptKK/IhBkp8vKYdHU1Wfxjz6bNSbt13UT tWo+t4B6mSTq+d0oJEv+gpY9P5w0Ml9gCIA3Nt6mNqQxWqvfGck7rsWU0tCoRyCTQfoD dvOpYD2Ol5XxOlNRHaPR9p9D6QjG2ewjp8rlSBcFHE+TC++ljbnEzxcs7xm7dHo/3o4i jlvw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm+uq8Us0MapMX+IPUJkb378/yZDjpuACeVGu2Lr/3XmdWtU8AT3uZE27cqi+i5rR5ThXE7 X-Received: by 10.70.0.230 with SMTP id 6mr42666328pdh.76.1439268987383; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c-24-6-220-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.6.220.224]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c8sm779516pdj.59.2015.08.10.21.56.24 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Tim Kientzle In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:56:22 -0700 Cc: Jordan Hubbard , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "K. Macy" , Kevin Bowling , Bill Sorenson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> To: Adrian Chadd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 04:56:33 -0000 > On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Adrian Chadd = wrote: >=20 > It's supposed to be (for mips): >=20 > pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain > make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... >=20 > .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working > out of the box. >=20 If someone would chime in on this thread with the actual =E2=80=98make=E2=80= =99 incantations that should work for each architecture, you might find = some volunteers. Tim From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 07:02:06 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F9D99E1BA for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:02:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C187E1FFF for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:02:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: by igbpg9 with SMTP id pg9so85065183igb.0 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:02:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=A1h4bUa47qvmptVa5/E2mgeNwoy+U8ymmSqK2NZdSJ8=; b=q/LWmmD0MOnL/Z6OtNedG6vmaWUpzanx0p1itKtiq2IcGqog2Kb+EU1ZOMx0sAnfaF tNsWdU9hXryRmVCpC9lMfgxJ+UCM44fxDLtA4YE3fe7a+hTij1uvpjz7V2CHHRIE/+3V AWke6WBlbYgmAkGJ6gYSXYDu+ENMRg6Mb0gF40uElWmQYBVtQk5EPS9BzSwpbb5q8//I Y4+mlnwVf8Uhak1oN8H/zNkrQF+Ih7R4K6dBJ0SbffcRGECoGnFs0L/ovn/samr0VcYz cmrQbJY13S0zuRKMliQM6eNmvZDM+8ngLiPhk9vzBKR6RcB9TOn+HvDn+YxhyMg+CQeN CErA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.79.197 with SMTP id l5mr15213102igx.67.1439276524859; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.2.132 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 00:02:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Dieter BSD To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:02:06 -0000 Jordan: >take this opportunity to clean things up with the build process Tim: > If someone would chime in on this thread with the actual [deleted] > make [deleted] incantations that should work for each architecture, > you might find some volunteers. I keep seeing the same issues over and over. Cross builds don't work. Some people hate gcc for whatever reason and insist on ripping it out in hopes that someone will wave their magic wand and make some other compiler take over. Sort of like injuring a bunch of people in hopes that someone will improve emergency rooms. Oh, if only we could add this special feature in base then we could use it in lots of ports without having another dependency. NASA_BSD got the cross-arch cross-OS building stuff working *years* ago. Is there some valid reason that FreeBSD can't do it the same way? NIH is not a valid reason. There seems to be an assumption that all arches have to use the same toolchain. That's just silly. Build arches A & B with gcc, arches C & D with klang, arch E with pcc, arch F with Sally-Jo's code-cruncher, and so one. And go a step further. The 'base' compiler can be different for different arches. Probably easier if the toolchain is separate from the 'base' package. (like NASA_BSD did it) Lots of ports have *way* too many dependencies. Adding yet another is bad, but probably isn't going to kill us. Adding a bunch of garbage to base is worse. I see a lot of hatred towards the less popular, "weird" arches. Having a variety of arches has a *lot* of value. Jordan: > I have a lab (several actually). I have engineers. How can we help. In addition to the suggestions above, there are open PRs that need fixing. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 08:12:11 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A977099F3AA for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:12:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com [17.158.232.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FC59BBD for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:12:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordanhubbard@me.com) Received: from [10.20.30.11] (75-101-82-48.static.sonic.net [75.101.82.48]) by nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NSW003D7S408140@nk11p03mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:12:05 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-08-11_04:2015-08-10,2015-08-11,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=2 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1508110124 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Jordan Hubbard In-reply-to: Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 01:11:58 -0700 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <16D597AE-613F-431F-8F56-30A8908F1913@me.com> References: To: Dieter BSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:12:11 -0000 > On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:02 AM, Dieter BSD wrote: >=20 > I keep seeing the same issues over and over. Cross builds don't > work. Some people hate gcc for whatever reason and insist on > ripping it out in hopes that someone will wave their magic wand and > make some other compiler take over. That is an overly simplistic summary of the discussion so far. If = cross-builds don=E2=80=99t work, they=E2=80=99re not going to work with = any compiler toolchain. Everyone needs to be very clear about this: = This isn=E2=80=99t even *about* gcc and whether or not anyone = =E2=80=9Chates=E2=80=9D it. We=E2=80=99ve already said multiple times = in this thread that an external toolchain is absolutely desirable, and = that toolchain will almost certainly be gcc until/unless someone gets a = real hard-on to start trying Intel System Studio or something, the = problem is FreeBSD=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Carea of interface=E2=80=9D with = the compiler toolchain and the degree to which it=E2=80=99s not yet = capable of dealing with toolchain selection in a clean and = understandable (or hell, even fully functional) way. The fact is that, in the year 2015, not being able to build with a = selection of compiler toolchains is just lame. What=E2=80=99s even = lamer is that it doesn=E2=80=99t even appear to be the case that the = problem is purely related to =E2=80=9Cwhich=E2=80=9D toolchain so much = as a lack of clarity on HOW to actually use the various toolchains = necessary for various architectures! As multiple people have asked in = this thread, and still with no clear answer: =E2=80=9CCan someone = kindly tell us just HOW specifically to compile for MIPS / sparc64 / = PowerPC / etc? What flags do we use? What versions of gcc do we even = use? Can we use the official version(s) or do we have to apply patches = first?=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s just building. That doesn=E2=80=99t even cover the = release media building issues I=E2=80=99ve also raised in this thread, = where it=E2=80=99s not even necessarily clear how to build installation = media for all the various machine targets FreeBSD now supports, all part = of the =E2=80=9Cclean up the build system=E2=80=9D agenda I=E2=80=99ve = been trying to at least raise awareness of here. You can=E2=80=99t possibly believe that this situation can be hand-waved = away as a =E2=80=9Cgcc haters gonna hate!=E2=80=9D discussion with those = sorts of questions open. It doesn=E2=80=99t sound like anyone has even = really TRIED to take a systematic approach to cross building. Different = people have focused on their individual architectures of interest and = that=E2=80=99s been about it. It also doesn=E2=80=99t sound like any = compiler, currently in base or otherwise, can fulfill the full mission = goals for all Tier 1 and Tier 2 targets, so *obviously* this is going to = require that the choice of toolchain be configurable. That=E2=80=99s = not =E2=80=9Crip gcc out=E2=80=9D, that=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cmake gcc = actually WORK=E2=80=9D for cross-building since there is yet to be any = one-size-fits-all compiler toolchain available (it would be really nice = and simple if there were, but there isn=E2=80=99t and we can=E2=80=99t = have a pony, either). =20 > NASA_BSD got the cross-arch cross-OS building stuff working > *years* ago. Is there some valid reason that FreeBSD can't > do it the same way? NIH is not a valid reason. Where are those changes? Which version of FreeBSD were they forked = from? By all means, elaborate! I=E2=80=99m sure =E2=80=9CNIH=E2=80=9D = is not the objection, but probably more the case that few people have = even heard of =E2=80=9CNASA BSD=E2=80=9D (I=E2=80=99ve certainly never = heard of it and Google is strangely silent on the topic). Even the = most brilliant but completely obscure solution remains obscure, and I = don=E2=80=99t know what NASA did with their amazing BSD fork but =E2=80=9C= get it upstreamed=E2=80=9D was evidently not on their list of desires or = we might not even be having this discussion. > There seems to be an assumption that all arches have to use the same = toolchain. I=E2=80=99m not sure we have been reading the same thread. The last 5 = message I read specifically noted that all arches COULDN=E2=80=99T use = the same toolchain. How do you get =E2=80=9Chave to=E2=80=9D from = =E2=80=9Ccan=E2=80=99t?=E2=80=9D > I see a lot of hatred towards the less popular, "weird" arches. > Having a variety of arches has a *lot* of value. I=E2=80=99m sorry, but on top of the points above where I think you=E2=80=99= re fairly far off-base, you could not be more wrong here either. Even = NetBSD, which has long had the motto of =E2=80=9Cof course it runs = NetBSD!=E2=80=9D (as if the answer was so obvious as to be unworth the = question), has been retiring architectures left and right because there = is no such thing as =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D in software. Everything has = a cost in time, in complexity, in maintenance headaches, etc. You = absolutely MUST weigh the relative value of each and every platform (or = HW device) you support and be willing to ruthlessly cull the old and the = weak or before long, your software will be a collection of burdensome = conditionals and weird constructs that no one even understands the = purpose of anymore, but =E2=80=9Cthey were necessary for something, at = some point=E2=80=9D so no one dares remove them, either. Just ask the OpenSSL project how heavy the burden of history can be (and = look at how many lines of code LibreSSL has ripped out, often with great = glee) and then ask yourself again if your definition of =E2=80=9Cvalue=E2=80= =9D is truly aligned with the converse reality we objectively know to be = true - Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 08:52:22 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681D99FF96 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:52:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA7056CC; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: by wibhh20 with SMTP id hh20so184935986wib.0; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 01:52:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=E3hxwae7wbEfPH0ayu1I2oYnoC35dZwC74wht4ZI+f8=; b=Pu0bhT64oF0b0uFWA1XLaYASED0S4T+pSjX1ULBF40if9W6BuTAsUCvcvY7q+pZhAH Jjq9guKxvm7sBLKHNtjji/ANZp0B4FAcloaA2MgVHQkplYoyEr46VKpVshIUsPUuIPIQ 76r1njsDByl1IDA60rOM1Wjjp28SnosdpBc7Gxnt62SB+TJ+oY9QYpjmYZ8RboDA5K3f IqEDNMZ4C2DcDMkSDuTy2luakXZ9rv3+XSo10FWWdtYnRXtixk42goQZJ4SpN+lyhV9W mVyxUUXXJjeFK+ey0S0EBrvFnvUULIRUR7xxo6vrvhcTFe+g/9Wp67kOBs5LEbUGFpjL x3UA== X-Received: by 10.194.205.170 with SMTP id lh10mr57465154wjc.1.1439283140328; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 01:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net ([2001:41d0:8:db4c::1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k4sm2316578wix.19.2015.08.11.01.52.18 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Aug 2015 01:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Baptiste Daroussin Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:52:17 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Tim Kientzle Cc: Adrian Chadd , Jordan Hubbard , Bill Sorenson , Kevin Bowling , "K. Macy" , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150811085216.GH96980@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y9PDtDHaFrXNoMPU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:52:22 -0000 --y9PDtDHaFrXNoMPU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 09:56:22PM -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote: >=20 > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Adrian Chadd wrot= e: > >=20 > > It's supposed to be (for mips): > >=20 > > pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain > > make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... > >=20 > > .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working > > out of the box. > >=20 >=20 > If someone would chime in on this thread with the actual =E2=80=98make=E2= =80=99 incantations that should work for each architecture, you might find = some volunteers. >=20 > Tim I have already sent a mail long ago about that: and adding stuff in the wik= i: https://wiki.freebsd.org/ExternalToolchain Note that the mips part is missing Best regards, Bapt --y9PDtDHaFrXNoMPU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlXJt8AACgkQ8kTtMUmk6EwJoACcDvFSvw5beA26NmcgprQpAu4d Rn4AoItOGyis++WjSlgViupwFwW9EWgV =Bgmm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y9PDtDHaFrXNoMPU-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 09:01:09 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FE899D623 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:01:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from mail.turbocat.net (mail.turbocat.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:d16:4514::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99A83F24; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:01:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from laptop015.home.selasky.org (cm-176.74.213.204.customer.telag.net [176.74.213.204]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.turbocat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 735001FE023; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:00:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: allow ffs & co. a binary search To: Erich Dollansky References: <20150607081315.7c0f09fb@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <5573EA5E.40806@selasky.org> <20150607195245.62dc191f@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <20150607135453.GH2499@kib.kiev.ua> <558175FA.4040106@FreeBSD.org> <20150617165331.GA2080@kib.kiev.ua> <5582CCF1.8010505@FreeBSD.org> <55C335A7.8020503@selasky.org> <20150811100327.0d12231f@X220.alogt.com> Cc: Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Andriy Gapon From: Hans Petter Selasky Message-ID: <55C9BA23.10407@selasky.org> Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:02:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20150811100327.0d12231f@X220.alogt.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:01:09 -0000 On 08/11/15 04:03, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Why not detect the built-in functions and do the binary search when > they are not available and leave the original implementation for all > other sizes? How can we detect this compile time? --HPS From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 13:28:35 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A9899E6D1 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:28:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x235.google.com (mail-ob0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 034C5777 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:28:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obnw1 with SMTP id w1so147649891obn.3 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 06:28:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=0g4NRcy2bh0P7VIWAIF/yxPWBKHFIV8yj4X35UJa3V4=; b=fsxemNDVWXdij72hVQ/stW4bYgc2kzrQS8Zww1t7VvUn1oM5AJ//18o1wejJiTunW8 cXw8XZJ8jRSywEqJqsRsIgpIQc50Il7PjQsMbDf3LUEY1IXKAiFeh7H6bd1XrxWyd7bO I0y5fp3vGvg262EUOBYE/VnLLMSCUcZhgIuNtptWDWG0VRm0vxgDWu0SfGSx4HJuQypz R1sBS6QTdqun8MKcQ3AqLKLLHNWzvpQGxgH52ZGLkzuKaxog7f0ZnKlD9b16mlcsN+y3 RM12ZjNjlkhnB6rlhn5kObxOOZKjNszqBeTU0Vk/0S9bOO0YoeZaC//5faRVVaA9eERD tjoQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.215.226 with SMTP id ol2mr24281275obc.56.1439299713929; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 06:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 06:28:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150811085216.GH96980@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> References: <20150809215403.GC20238@server.rulingia.com> <6C12EBFE-EAA9-4C12-9F03-1CB2C28C4A6E@me.com> <51EEBC6E-5D85-439D-874D-D223EE045515@me.com> <926DDA42-8883-4AB4-B229-D44387FF5C6B@me.com> <20150811085216.GH96980@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:28:33 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:28:35 -0000 Since I have a few sparc machines lying around, I'm building clang 3.6 from ports to see how broken it is. Its gonna take a while. If that goes, tonight I'm going to see how broken system clang is in current. -Bill Sorenson On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 3:52 AM, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 09:56:22PM -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote: > > > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Adrian Chadd > wrote: > > > > > > It's supposed to be (for mips): > > > > > > pkg install mips-gcc mips-xtoolchain > > > make ... CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=3Dmips-gcc ... > > > > > > .. however there are loose ends to fix that prevent that from working > > > out of the box. > > > > > > > If someone would chime in on this thread with the actual =E2=80=98make= =E2=80=99 > incantations that should work for each architecture, you might find some > volunteers. > > > > Tim > > I have already sent a mail long ago about that: and adding stuff in the > wiki: > https://wiki.freebsd.org/ExternalToolchain > > Note that the mips part is missing > > Best regards, > Bapt > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 13:30:10 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCD799E770 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:30:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from smtp.digiware.nl (unknown [IPv6:2001:4cb8:90:ffff::3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9EE18A1 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:30:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from rack1.digiware.nl (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DC2153466; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:30:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at digiware.nl Received: from smtp.digiware.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by rack1.digiware.nl (rack1.digiware.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FoPwlF_WaDLf; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:29:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.101.176] (vpn.ecoracks.nl [31.223.170.173]) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 80170153430; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:29:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Sparc64 support To: Jordan Hubbard , Dieter BSD References: <16D597AE-613F-431F-8F56-30A8908F1913@me.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Willem Jan Withagen Message-ID: <55C9F8D2.5030704@digiware.nl> Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:29:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16D597AE-613F-431F-8F56-30A8908F1913@me.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:30:10 -0000 On 11-8-2015 10:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> I see a lot of hatred towards the less popular, "weird" arches. >> Having a variety of arches has a *lot* of value. > > I’m sorry, but on top of the points above where I think you’re fairly > far off-base, you could not be more wrong here either. Even NetBSD, > which has long had the motto of “of course it runs NetBSD!” (as if > the answer was so obvious as to be unworth the question), has been > retiring architectures left and right because there is no such thing > as “free” in software. Everything has a cost in time, in complexity, > in maintenance headaches, etc. You absolutely MUST weigh the > relative value of each and every platform (or HW device) you support > and be willing to ruthlessly cull the old and the weak or before > long, your software will be a collection of burdensome conditionals > and weird constructs that no one even understands the purpose of > anymore, but “they were necessary for something, at some point” so no > one dares remove them, either. > > Just ask the OpenSSL project how heavy the burden of history can be > (and look at how many lines of code LibreSSL has ripped out, often > with great glee) and then ask yourself again if your definition of > “value” is truly aligned with the converse reality we objectively > know to be true Well it starts with the fun job of writing compiler-backends where the code is generated... Let alone that the backend writes optimized machine-code. Newer CPUs allow for combinations of instructions never considered for which new algorithms must be designed to actual be able to use them efficiently. Then it gets to the OS and the platform itself, where ARM is a real nice example.. You can call it ARM, but just only the CPU has 4 modes, let alone that there are various versions with different instruction. sets. Then go the the VM and other system architecture variations and you understand why the development of FreeBSD on ARM still has lots of very tricky changes to accommodate for. Last but not least are the devices that come with new platforms. Sure they look a lot like the ones already done, especially if they are in the PCI family. But still fine details need to be tinkered to get devices to work (flawless). And then once you have mastered that all, try to retrofit something like ZFS.... No, over the years I've always been happy that FreeBSD was deliberately careful in selecting their platforms. Because there is always NetBSD as close alternative. I install BSD stats on most of the boxed I operate, but obviously not many people do... And even less SPARC people do, so it seems. Goto http://www.bsdstats.org/bt/cpus.html to get a hang of where FreeBSD is running.... Short version: Out of 11.000 submissions: (SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIe @ 500 MHz) 5 Microsystems UltraSparc-IIe 12 Microsystems UltraSparc-IIIi 2 Microsystems UltraSparc-IIi 1 But no ARM at all, so that sort of make the numbers above fall in the range: lies, damn lies, statistics. :) --WjW From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 19:57:24 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052BB99F3BC for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:57:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:75::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D36A1E5B; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:57:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from ralph.baldwin.cx (75-48-78-19.lightspeed.cncrca.sbcglobal.net [75.48.78.19]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9DE2B98E; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:57:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Bill Sorenson Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:02:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3293168.mJnTOSukKj@ralph.baldwin.cx> User-Agent: KMail/4.14.3 (FreeBSD/10.2-PRERELEASE; KDE/4.14.3; amd64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <20150808015610.GL43782@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> References: <20150808015610.GL43782@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:57:23 -0400 (EDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:57:24 -0000 On Saturday, August 08, 2015 03:56:10 AM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 04:54:46PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've tested it with mips/mips64. It works out mostly okay. There are > > still rough edges, because in the mips world we have different > > defaults in our base system gcc to what the current toolchain expects. > > But at least for mips/mips64 it spits out a kernel and binaries that > > work. > > > > What I did to make the MIPS bits call the external toolchain: > > > > make NO_WERROR=1 CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=mips-gcc buildworld > > > > .. so in theory the sparc64 stuff may just be: > > > > pkg install sparc64-gcc sparc64-xtoolchain-gcc > > make NO_WERROR=1 CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=sparc64-gcc buildworld > > > When I added the cross toolchain it was first tested on sparc64 and people > reported that it built and run fine with it. > > This was with gcc 4.9, I haven't tested with 5.2 Should we perhaps looking at switching the default toolchain for sparc64 to external similar to how we require external binutils for aarch64? (Require some sort of explicit make variable on HEAD to permit building with GCC 4.2.1?) -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 22:33:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E952199F79E for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:33:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (alchemy.franken.de [194.94.249.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "alchemy.franken.de", Issuer "alchemy.franken.de" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2B87A7; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:33:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alchemy.franken.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/ALCHEMY.FRANKEN.DE) with ESMTPS id t7BMXUWE052293 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:33:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: (from marius@localhost) by alchemy.franken.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id t7BMXU2w052292; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:33:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marius) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:33:30 +0200 From: Marius Strobl To: John Baldwin Cc: Baptiste Daroussin , Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Bill Sorenson Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150811223330.GA51727@alchemy.franken.de> References: <20150808015610.GL43782@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> <3293168.mJnTOSukKj@ralph.baldwin.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3293168.mJnTOSukKj@ralph.baldwin.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (alchemy.franken.de [0.0.0.0]); Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:33:30 +0200 (CEST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:33:34 -0000 On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:02:03AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > On Saturday, August 08, 2015 03:56:10 AM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 04:54:46PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've tested it with mips/mips64. It works out mostly okay. There are > > > still rough edges, because in the mips world we have different > > > defaults in our base system gcc to what the current toolchain expects. > > > But at least for mips/mips64 it spits out a kernel and binaries that > > > work. > > > > > > What I did to make the MIPS bits call the external toolchain: > > > > > > make NO_WERROR=1 CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=mips-gcc buildworld > > > > > > .. so in theory the sparc64 stuff may just be: > > > > > > pkg install sparc64-gcc sparc64-xtoolchain-gcc > > > make NO_WERROR=1 CROSS_TOOLCHAIN=sparc64-gcc buildworld > > > > > When I added the cross toolchain it was first tested on sparc64 and people > > reported that it built and run fine with it. > > > > This was with gcc 4.9, I haven't tested with 5.2 > > Should we perhaps looking at switching the default toolchain for sparc64 to > external similar to how we require external binutils for aarch64? > If you: o created and are willing to maintain long-term support system toolchain ports (the regular upstream binutils and GCC releases are way too much of a moving target to justify their existence alone, i. e. I cannot remember a single in-tree toolchain update where newly introduced bugs in binutils and/or GCC did not cause regressions like C++ exceptions no longer working on any of !x86 at that time, kernel modules no longer working on sparc64, etc.), o ensured release building works with the external toolchain, and o fixed the chicken and egg problem of obtaining a system toolchain on the cross-built target bapt@ pointed out, then: yes. Marius From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Aug 11 23:23:28 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60E399F3AF for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:23:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BE526CB; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:23:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=VT0HECjZxTMgugMlElwPSRJm7V4X3doRP0mXJBJRNdU=; b=VAPbLEuw+5VLbkEC4KCS4PBM47UbfHhPZwI0ko1Q3PyPXPZRBKbKgEhuvQLEUHz3gEMxwJfHaLNdklY102ZYnk62U+g75A6L7cXbx54do2Js1XBFtQqxd9NOwO7JG+Dt31Y1bK/k43gbZsW1VpyMUF6yPShGsWievCtgk04D6TE=; Received: from [39.251.0.151] (port=43445 helo=X220.alogt.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZPIt7-0026hQ-DB; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:23:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:23:14 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Hans Petter Selasky Cc: Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Andriy Gapon Subject: Re: allow ffs & co. a binary search Message-ID: <20150812072314.5ff873ec@X220.alogt.com> In-Reply-To: <55C9BA23.10407@selasky.org> References: <20150607081315.7c0f09fb@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <5573EA5E.40806@selasky.org> <20150607195245.62dc191f@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <20150607135453.GH2499@kib.kiev.ua> <558175FA.4040106@FreeBSD.org> <20150617165331.GA2080@kib.kiev.ua> <5582CCF1.8010505@FreeBSD.org> <55C335A7.8020503@selasky.org> <20150811100327.0d12231f@X220.alogt.com> <55C9BA23.10407@selasky.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:23:28 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:02:27 +0200 Hans Petter Selasky wrote: > On 08/11/15 04:03, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Why not detect the built-in functions and do the binary search when > > they are not available and leave the original implementation for all > > other sizes? > > How can we detect this compile time? the compiler is known to macros at compile time. We can use this then for known compilers (gcc and clang) and use binary search for unknown compilers. I would not like to spend time on the hack as it would have to be tested. Of course, for unknown data sizes, I would leave the original in. As long as FreeBSD does not switch the compiler again, this will work. Erich From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Aug 12 12:05:18 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83409A034B for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:05:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com) Received: from 9.mo175.mail-out.ovh.net (9.mo175.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.54.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64B491F1 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:05:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com) Received: from MBX002.OVH.local (corp.ovh.com [5.196.251.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mo175.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75734FF8265; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:39:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from desk533202.ovh.net (5.196.2.34) by MBX002.OVH.local (172.16.2.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:39:11 +0200 From: Ganael Laplanche Organization: OVH To: Subject: EFI ZFS loader success story Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:39:40 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/3.2.0-4-amd64; KDE/4.8.4; x86_64; ; ) CC: Eric McCorkle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <201508121139.40852.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> X-Originating-IP: [5.196.2.34] X-ClientProxiedBy: cas02.OVH.local (172.16.1.2) To MBX002.OVH.local (172.16.2.2) X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 1467329055665338920 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekfedrfeefucetufdoteggucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddm X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:05:19 -0000 Hi folks, hi Eric, Using the patch from this post : https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2015-June/047823.html against -CURRENT (r286279), I've been able to boot my ZFS-root system, yeah! =46or those interested, here are the steps needed to get a working system. = This=20 should be done on a live system to be able to operate freely on the hard di= sk. =46irst, create the partitions : =2D----------------------------- We will work on a single disk, detected as ada0. # gpart create -s gpt ada0 # gpart add -s 800K -t efi ada0 # gpart add -t freebsd-zfs ada0 # gpart show =3D> 34 3907029101 ada0 GPT (1.8T) 34 1600 1 efi (800K) 1634 3907027501 2 freebsd-zfs (1.8T) We use two partitions : the first one will host the loader and the second o= ne,=20 the zpool. Create the zpool, ZFS and mount the root FS : =2D-------------------------------------------- # zpool create -f -m none -o altroot=3D/mnt root ada0p2 # zfs create root/ROOT # zfs create root/ROOT/default # zfs set mountpoint=3D/ root/ROOT/default # zpool set bootfs=3Droot/ROOT/default root # zfs mount -a # mkdir /mnt/dev # mount -t devfs none /mnt/dev Install the system : =2D------------------- Now it is time to install the system within /mnt. [ not detailed here, use your favourite method ] You can then unmount and export the zpool. # umount /mnt/dev # zpool export root Prepare the EFI partition : =2D-------------------------- We copy the (patched) loader.efi (*not* boot1.efi, which did not work for m= e)=20 to efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi and set currdev within loader.rc : # newfs_msdos ada0p1 # mount -t msdosfs /dev/ada0p1 /mnt # mkdir -p /mnt/efi/boot/ # cp loader-zfs.efi /mnt/efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi # mkdir -p /mnt/boot # cat > /mnt/boot/loader.rc << EOF unload set currdev=3Dzfs:root/ROOT/default: load boot/kernel/kernel load boot/kernel/zfs.ko autoboot EOF # (cd /mnt && find .) =2E =2E/efi =2E/efi/boot =2E/efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi =2E/boot =2E/boot/loader.rc # umount /mnt Now, reboot and enjoy you new system :) Pushing the limits : =2D------------------- Using this method, it is even possible to get a system bootable from UEFI *= or*=20 legacy BIOS. Just insert a freebsd-boot (64K) partition between the efi and freebsd-zfs= =20 ones and install the pmbr + gptzfsboot loaders : # gpart bootcode -b /mnt/boot/pmbr -p /mnt/boot/gptzfsboot -i 2 ada0 =46inally, modify the /boot/loader.conf file within the ZFS root filesystem= =20 (mounted on /mnt) : # cat >> /mnt/boot/loader.conf << EOF zfs_load=3D"YES" vfs.root.mountfrom=3D"zfs:root/ROOT/default" EOF Now, you can reboot either from BIOS or UEFI, the system will handle both. Given the following partition scheme : 1 efi (800K) 2 freebsd-boot (64K) 3 freebsd-zfs (1.8T) The boot process will use the following paths : Boot from BIOS -> MBR (pmbr) -> 2 (gptboot) -> 3 (loader) -> 3 (kernel) -> = zfs=20 root mounted Boot from UEFI -> 1 (BOOTx64.efi, a.k.a patched loader.efi) -> 3 (kernel) -= >=20 zfs root mounted Eric, thanks for your great work, I hope your patch will be committed soon = :) Regards, =2D-=20 Gana=EBl LAPLANCHE From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Aug 12 12:47:54 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80E09A0B4F for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:47:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from astart2.astart.com (wsip-72-214-30-30.sd.sd.cox.net [72.214.30.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0762753 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:47:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from laptop_93.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astart2.astart.com (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id t7CCiQZW051168 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Message-ID: <55CB3FAA.5020507@astart.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:44:26 -0700 From: Patrick Powell Reply-To: papowell@astart.com Organization: Astart Technologies User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 support References: <16D597AE-613F-431F-8F56-30A8908F1913@me.com> <55C9F8D2.5030704@digiware.nl> In-Reply-To: <55C9F8D2.5030704@digiware.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:47:54 -0000 On 08/11/15 06:29, Willem Jan Withagen wrote: > On 11-8-2015 10:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >>> I see a lot of hatred towards the less popular, "weird" arches. >>> Having a variety of arches has a *lot* of value. >> I’m sorry, but on top of the points above where I think you’re fairly >> far off-base, you could not be more wrong here either. Even NetBSD, >> which has long had the motto of “of course it runs NetBSD!” (as if >> the answer was so obvious as to be unworth the question), has been >> retiring architectures left and right because there is no such thing >> as “free” in software. Everything has a cost in time, in complexity, >> in maintenance headaches, etc. You absolutely MUST weigh the >> relative value of each and every platform (or HW device) you support >> and be willing to ruthlessly cull the old and the weak or before >> long, your software will be a collection of burdensome conditionals >> and weird constructs that no one even understands the purpose of >> anymore, but “they were necessary for something, at some point” so no >> one dares remove them, either. >> >> Just ask the OpenSSL project how heavy the burden of history can be >> (and look at how many lines of code LibreSSL has ripped out, often >> with great glee) and then ask yourself again if your definition of >> “value” is truly aligned with the converse reality we objectively >> know to be true > Well it starts with the fun job of writing compiler-backends where the > code is generated... Let alone that the backend writes optimized > machine-code. > Newer CPUs allow for combinations of instructions never considered for > which new algorithms must be designed to actual be able to use them > efficiently. > > Then it gets to the OS and the platform itself, where ARM is a real nice > example.. You can call it ARM, but just only the CPU has 4 modes, let > alone that there are various versions with different instruction. > sets. Then go the the VM and other system architecture variations and > you understand why the development of FreeBSD on ARM still has lots of > very tricky changes to accommodate for. > > Last but not least are the devices that come with new platforms. Sure > they look a lot like the ones already done, especially if they are in > the PCI family. But still fine details need to be tinkered to get > devices to work (flawless). > > And then once you have mastered that all, try to retrofit something like > ZFS.... > > No, over the years I've always been happy that FreeBSD was deliberately > careful in selecting their platforms. Because there is always NetBSD as > close alternative. > > I install BSD stats on most of the boxed I operate, but obviously not > many people do... And even less SPARC people do, so it seems. > > Goto http://www.bsdstats.org/bt/cpus.html to get a hang of where FreeBSD > is running.... > > Short version: > Out of 11.000 submissions: > (SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIe @ 500 MHz) 5 > Microsystems UltraSparc-IIe 12 > Microsystems UltraSparc-IIIi 2 > Microsystems UltraSparc-IIi 1 > > But no ARM at all, so that sort of make the numbers above fall in the > range: lies, damn lies, statistics. :) > > --WjWX86, > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > As I was reading this, I kept having flashbacks to doing cross system porting: different compilers, include files, architectures, etc. etc. My congratulations to the FreeBSD/OpenBSD/WhateverLinuxThisWeek folks for getting things to run on X86/AMD64/Some RISC/Hardware Development Board De Jour. "It's not that the bear dances well, its amazing that the bear dances at all!" -- Patrick Powell Astart Technologies papowell@astart.com 1530 Jamacha Rd, Suite X Network and System San Diego, CA 92019 Consulting 858-874-6543 FAX 858-751-2435 Web: www.astart.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Aug 12 12:48:10 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8689A0B7D for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:48:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com) Received: from 2.mo175.mail-out.ovh.net (2.mo175.mail-out.ovh.net [178.33.255.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62E60829 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:48:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com) Received: from MBX002.OVH.local (corp.ovh.com [5.196.251.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mo175.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2CD0FF825B; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:48:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from desk533202.ovh.net (5.196.2.34) by MBX002.OVH.local (172.16.2.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:47:30 +0200 From: Ganael Laplanche Organization: OVH To: Subject: Re: EFI ZFS loader success story Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:47:59 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/3.2.0-4-amd64; KDE/4.8.4; x86_64; ; ) CC: Eric McCorkle References: <201508121139.40852.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> In-Reply-To: <201508121139.40852.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <201508121447.59970.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> X-Originating-IP: [5.196.2.34] X-ClientProxiedBy: cas01.OVH.local (172.16.1.1) To MBX002.OVH.local (172.16.2.2) X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 4647996290770123304 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekfedrfeefucetufdoteggucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddm X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:48:10 -0000 On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 11:39:40 AM Ganael Laplanche wrote: > Using the patch from this post : >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2015-June/047823.html >=20 > against -CURRENT (r286279), I've been able to boot my ZFS-root system, > yeah! As a followup to : https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2015-April/047608.html > Also, if someone with a UFS system could test that the modularization did= n't > break UFS functionality, that'd be helpful. I would like to add I've successfully booted a UFS root too (in UEFI mode)= =20 using your patch, with both loaders (either directly from loader.efi or usi= ng=20 boot1.efi + loader.efi). Here is how. =46irst, create partitions this way : # gpart create -s gpt ada0 # gpart add -s 800K -t efi ada0 # gpart add -t freebsd-ufs ada0 Then, install FreeBSD within the freebsd-ufs partition. You can then choose between two ways of booting your system : (let's consider the efi partition is mounted under /tmp/efi and the root FS= =20 under /mnt) 1) Using loader.efi : =2D-------------------- # cp loader.efi /tmp/efi/efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi # cat > /tmp/efi/boot/loader.rc << EOF unload set currdev=3Dpart1: load boot/kernel/kernel autoboot EOF 2) Using boot1.efi + loader.efi : =2D-------------------------------- # cp boot1.efi /tmp/efi/efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi # cp loader.efi /mnt/boot/ Cleanup previous test : # rm /tmp/efi/boot/loader.rc # rmdir /tmp/efi/boot Also, in both cases, do not forget to modify the fstab within /mnt/etc to=20 mount the root fs. Regards, =2D-=20 Gana=EBl LAPLANCHE From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Aug 12 23:46:02 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6139A0D11 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:46:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 243408; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:46:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by oip136 with SMTP id 136so18039740oip.1; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:46:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=AAQBKPN6RIdmAW2kAvqziRFfDOBDwVZRitpu3yQBJQM=; b=D4KgCwSGneE2t+StG5OHMiFJTVXqoIsNN54bf6Y5s8+w3AO0vSYY5F2sVWjyeEfJfE oH8bTC2sPtT+GKAfbXvl/p1oCA4JjbFy9gD/Ba4Lj597ehTNs9TJBZfC+Dh2atNHwpa7 l24UwVKOcCTnQsgcs+j9Y5pakOYmB/023fRUNbwEQRqWTm+BG3hZr950X7BnkGczfr8E gQtl1gMtDR2PtV/t44QEGSwGJ/O4JucnZOHMUZ+XUATg89fNEtxv38XBnW9h1TjX6SGV YvK7ySy8x2L+1NIrlkzcZ4QrcJYviwncJw4t7w6es0khEgoozGkmzLGV7g6ADjA2oJwG H4HQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.0.206 with SMTP id 197mr26115454oia.15.1439423161241; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:46:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7311511.ISQt3RZVgq@ralph.baldwin.cx> References: <7311511.ISQt3RZVgq@ralph.baldwin.cx> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 18:46:01 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:46:02 -0000 I just spent a day building clang36 from ports on one of my idle sparc machines, and it builds a working ubench binary. I'm going to see if I can build some ports with it but thus far the latest clang seems at least superficially functional on sparc. I know when I tired many moons ago, clang built binaries would instantly dump. -Bill Sorenson On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:53 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > On Wednesday, August 05, 2015 02:10:34 PM Bill Sorenson wrote: > > I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple > > platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with BSD on > > some of the lesser used platforms. > > Realistically, the major potential bump in the road for sparc64 is the > toolchain. GCC 4.2.1 is getting really long in the tooth and as a > Project we want to drop it as our system compiler. I can't tell you > when that will happen, but it will eventually. That means that all of > our supported platforms will either have to work with clang, or they will > need to use an external GCC toolchain (of more recent vintage). Ensuring > that one of these routes work for sparc64 will make it much easier for > sparc64 to stay in the tree without inhibiting other work. > > My understanding is that the most recent clang in HEAD can at least build > and install on sparc64, but that programs built with it might segfault, > etc. If you are up for debugging those issues then that is one approach. > I do think that clang works on Linux/sparc64, so that these should be > FreeBSD bugs moreso than clang/llvm bugs (but I can't promise that). > > In theory we have bits in our build system to use an external toolchain > for building a system. I haven't worked with them but I have seen others > talk about them (e.g. imp@ and bapt@). Getting the recipe down for how > to do it and testing that the system works with recent versions of > GCC is what is missing there I think (so that there are instructions of > 'install port foo', 'stick this in /etc/make.conf', or 'put this on the > command line to buildworld', etc.). Of course, testing that the resulting > binaries also work correctly would also be good. :) > > -- > John Baldwin > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Aug 13 07:20:05 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE6099F687 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:20:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x22c.google.com (mail-ob0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEA62DFF; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:20:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by obbop1 with SMTP id op1so31018945obb.2; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 00:20:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=FE9iqAoWlfwJAJNeycVfquWDitNmUe99ottKsqkPyEM=; b=NdXr6CJEcIbS4XYDaJYYUInXwwKnyeBJrKtrzbgc3cPEN0ZozAujr+HDfIE0BM8mk1 Qvjlpfj8khsPLjJ2oEPmrnPiP35XK7Va0AciSjnlKef0HViaL74zGjdY117No5wb5Ka6 dUzrwHd77qv04Z/HktSM7S2fR9uPcjuAPTCn9gpSt9U3Rb2ef0vWDT2hL7so0i/8BIO+ t/LGbVrLA0r9qjMjybflegkNfPxwsg9DVH1h6EhlEJ2Vllb1q1+sjg9RH7xTAWrxgjZ1 O9NhmSHEB5HltgYcWu8VZpIZ0W8J0SJT44cW4ms/8Cpee4QKBhn2ETuvPxvW6xNc4JWl 45mA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.236.200 with SMTP id uw8mr33549652obc.19.1439450403913; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 00:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.129.139 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 00:20:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150813064227.GA85863@vlakno.cz> References: <7311511.ISQt3RZVgq@ralph.baldwin.cx> <20150813064227.GA85863@vlakno.cz> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 02:20:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support From: Bill Sorenson To: Roman Divacky Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:20:05 -0000 Thats what I'm working towards. Clang37 is on track to be imported to current for 11 yes? On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 1:42 AM, Roman Divacky wrote: > Fwiw, there's been some fixes to the sparc64 backend in clang37, so you > might > want to spend some more idle sparc cycles to build and test that. > > Anyway, marius@ did an analysis of the sparc64 support in llvm last > december > and reported a number of issues. I don't think those issues have been > fixed. > > If you want to try/analyse/fix those bugs you're more than welcome. > > Roman > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 06:46:01PM -0500, Bill Sorenson wrote: > > I just spent a day building clang36 from ports on one of my idle sparc > > machines, and it builds a working ubench binary. I'm going to see if I > can > > build some ports with it but thus far the latest clang seems at least > > superficially functional on sparc. I know when I tired many moons ago, > > clang built binaries would instantly dump. > > > > -Bill Sorenson > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:53 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday, August 05, 2015 02:10:34 PM Bill Sorenson wrote: > > > > I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple > > > > platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with > BSD on > > > > some of the lesser used platforms. > > > > > > Realistically, the major potential bump in the road for sparc64 is the > > > toolchain. GCC 4.2.1 is getting really long in the tooth and as a > > > Project we want to drop it as our system compiler. I can't tell you > > > when that will happen, but it will eventually. That means that all of > > > our supported platforms will either have to work with clang, or they > will > > > need to use an external GCC toolchain (of more recent vintage). > Ensuring > > > that one of these routes work for sparc64 will make it much easier for > > > sparc64 to stay in the tree without inhibiting other work. > > > > > > My understanding is that the most recent clang in HEAD can at least > build > > > and install on sparc64, but that programs built with it might segfault, > > > etc. If you are up for debugging those issues then that is one > approach. > > > I do think that clang works on Linux/sparc64, so that these should be > > > FreeBSD bugs moreso than clang/llvm bugs (but I can't promise that). > > > > > > In theory we have bits in our build system to use an external toolchain > > > for building a system. I haven't worked with them but I have seen > others > > > talk about them (e.g. imp@ and bapt@). Getting the recipe down for > how > > > to do it and testing that the system works with recent versions of > > > GCC is what is missing there I think (so that there are instructions of > > > 'install port foo', 'stick this in /etc/make.conf', or 'put this on the > > > command line to buildworld', etc.). Of course, testing that the > resulting > > > binaries also work correctly would also be good. :) > > > > > > -- > > > John Baldwin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Aug 13 06:44:03 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16299A0C01 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rdivacky@vlakno.cz) Received: from vlakno.cz (mail.vlakno.cz [91.217.96.224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2447AA7D; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:44:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rdivacky@vlakno.cz) Received: by vlakno.cz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id D9D6B1E20C82; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:42:27 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=vlakno.cz; s=mail; t=1439448147; bh=aVREc77S+btWKpV00BQYHPnMAIV2WaP/xoS3UXKl/Xo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=R6HxHxVtNK57bVjwxJaULJJygBJklIsWyqInIaa5bz95MHsSzX01zly7E6gQPLjdv dyRrayRNNvAWkIS0jDdRhXk7pgqonHP3zR2BYkCNHwF+iNTzBd/QQs5X/d5vJZhupj Abo9rsjRXqEAfRYdPnuYt4e5ReM8WJ5HZLKG7Eo0= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:42:27 +0200 From: Roman Divacky To: Bill Sorenson Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 support Message-ID: <20150813064227.GA85863@vlakno.cz> References: <7311511.ISQt3RZVgq@ralph.baldwin.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:24:58 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:44:04 -0000 Fwiw, there's been some fixes to the sparc64 backend in clang37, so you might want to spend some more idle sparc cycles to build and test that. Anyway, marius@ did an analysis of the sparc64 support in llvm last december and reported a number of issues. I don't think those issues have been fixed. If you want to try/analyse/fix those bugs you're more than welcome. Roman On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 06:46:01PM -0500, Bill Sorenson wrote: > I just spent a day building clang36 from ports on one of my idle sparc > machines, and it builds a working ubench binary. I'm going to see if I can > build some ports with it but thus far the latest clang seems at least > superficially functional on sparc. I know when I tired many moons ago, > clang built binaries would instantly dump. > > -Bill Sorenson > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:53 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > > On Wednesday, August 05, 2015 02:10:34 PM Bill Sorenson wrote: > > > I'm one of probably a few users of FreeBSD and OpenBSD on multiple > > > platforms left and I thought I'd share some of my experience with BSD on > > > some of the lesser used platforms. > > > > Realistically, the major potential bump in the road for sparc64 is the > > toolchain. GCC 4.2.1 is getting really long in the tooth and as a > > Project we want to drop it as our system compiler. I can't tell you > > when that will happen, but it will eventually. That means that all of > > our supported platforms will either have to work with clang, or they will > > need to use an external GCC toolchain (of more recent vintage). Ensuring > > that one of these routes work for sparc64 will make it much easier for > > sparc64 to stay in the tree without inhibiting other work. > > > > My understanding is that the most recent clang in HEAD can at least build > > and install on sparc64, but that programs built with it might segfault, > > etc. If you are up for debugging those issues then that is one approach. > > I do think that clang works on Linux/sparc64, so that these should be > > FreeBSD bugs moreso than clang/llvm bugs (but I can't promise that). > > > > In theory we have bits in our build system to use an external toolchain > > for building a system. I haven't worked with them but I have seen others > > talk about them (e.g. imp@ and bapt@). Getting the recipe down for how > > to do it and testing that the system works with recent versions of > > GCC is what is missing there I think (so that there are instructions of > > 'install port foo', 'stick this in /etc/make.conf', or 'put this on the > > command line to buildworld', etc.). Of course, testing that the resulting > > binaries also work correctly would also be good. :) > > > > -- > > John Baldwin > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Aug 13 15:10:44 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5459A06F1 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:10:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@metricspace.net) Received: from mail.metricspace.net (mail.metricspace.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:617::103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733BC7CA for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:10:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@metricspace.net) Received: from [172.20.3.30] (unknown [208.71.37.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: eric) by mail.metricspace.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DD771EEA; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:10:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: EFI ZFS loader success story To: Ganael Laplanche , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <201508121139.40852.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> <201508121447.59970.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> From: Eric McCorkle Message-ID: <55CCB372.9030901@metricspace.net> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:10:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201508121447.59970.ganael.laplanche@corp.ovh.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vhPIKVffB48IR87blpEq5rPKPawgLRgAc" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:10:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vhPIKVffB48IR87blpEq5rPKPawgLRgAc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent! Thanks for testing it. On 08/12/2015 08:47 AM, Ganael Laplanche wrote: > On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 11:39:40 AM Ganael Laplanche wrote: >=20 >> Using the patch from this post : >> >> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2015-June/047823.h= tml >> >> against -CURRENT (r286279), I've been able to boot my ZFS-root system,= >> yeah! >=20 > As a followup to : >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2015-April/047608.h= tml >=20 >> Also, if someone with a UFS system could test that the modularization = didn't >> break UFS functionality, that'd be helpful. >=20 > I would like to add I've successfully booted a UFS root too (in UEFI mo= de)=20 > using your patch, with both loaders (either directly from loader.efi or= using=20 > boot1.efi + loader.efi). Here is how. >=20 > First, create partitions this way : >=20 > # gpart create -s gpt ada0 > # gpart add -s 800K -t efi ada0 > # gpart add -t freebsd-ufs ada0 >=20 > Then, install FreeBSD within the freebsd-ufs partition. >=20 > You can then choose between two ways of booting your system : >=20 > (let's consider the efi partition is mounted under /tmp/efi and the roo= t FS=20 > under /mnt) >=20 > 1) Using loader.efi : > --------------------- >=20 > # cp loader.efi /tmp/efi/efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi >=20 > # cat > /tmp/efi/boot/loader.rc << EOF > unload > set currdev=3Dpart1: > load boot/kernel/kernel > autoboot > EOF >=20 > 2) Using boot1.efi + loader.efi : > --------------------------------- >=20 > # cp boot1.efi /tmp/efi/efi/boot/BOOTx64.efi > # cp loader.efi /mnt/boot/ >=20 > Cleanup previous test : > # rm /tmp/efi/boot/loader.rc > # rmdir /tmp/efi/boot >=20 > Also, in both cases, do not forget to modify the fstab within /mnt/etc = to=20 > mount the root fs. >=20 > Regards, >=20 --vhPIKVffB48IR87blpEq5rPKPawgLRgAc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVzLN1AAoJECuREQPg1IcE4coP/3m1NzQPp4W9GWnjRbNm6mTz jwwKAvMJ/lORmTe92o9KgJB/LhsuV4sG6eE3bTkZ+XY1HSr4nVSR0gEjSRnel66n 6pIfKDkMsDAqRERlZiAlWMuZAOPlHoYrjsADsguC0f9cJ1RVvw6G23How/Ny0jaN eWQYS55w1AMDig4g5AdLrnoan8O+Txk/I3O8FpQRLa45B3O/HwTmwkx+qB/Mqn4I pQEHdnJS8RbZuPiRVsCmWVZpo6JIgvd5+U3iUxamY/7LP+OqF3X4Udt7pxUAJFEE IXEVml7iQzECahzhMSizlvtSxJ/RAqmAripoAQbSjwfUjKjitv5IUTOgUqmAjiEO 6MzbTmo9IF/Q/hT7stdwm4JleIvU2DJGDlMyWIy0tWVGj8KxJ6A/FuDRjMLu+/74 0pYbpWB29ucpwp9fYlRmJmK1e/AzaBIaUK+L2DpyBc2TJZvb/BldxEkIHE/4fM6n qVS8jdyZJyF3fqpWJhiu5OnVy1EFn3Hkn6ES4orLRNgX5Z39X0aXsNZBcVBcoDBS qrle+4zTi7BKX+CweJnjC4+dy46T94SDqV15s6O5DwHJe4yPW8j/JsZ6ynIYE000 Rb75UJKXlUj7BnuuVHfl9BDxptQC3DM0d4Bur7Ojga/MJpdZ4R2AEvwSo5HKOJmh cesAH0D+S+Vnp8ACxB61 =B8ym -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vhPIKVffB48IR87blpEq5rPKPawgLRgAc-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Aug 13 16:54:25 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161A19B8AF8 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:54:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from megas@alum.rpi.edu) Received: from tmsmtp01oc.mail2world.com (tmsmtp01oc.mail2world.com [209.67.128.216]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F0089D for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from megas@alum.rpi.edu) Received: from mail pickup service by tmsmtp01oc.mail2world.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:53:27 -0700 auth-sender: megas@alum.rpi.edu Received: from 10.1.106.67 unverified ([10.1.106.67]) by tmsmtp01oc.mail2world.com with Mail2World SMTP Server; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:53:26 -0700 X-M2WAction: forward Received: from [10.1.255.244] by alum.rpi.edu with HTTP; 8/13/2015 9:53:26 AM PST From: "Alexis Megas" To: Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:53:26 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 thread-index: AdDV6Bk0FKbItEeSSdGePttP6+arxgAAHl8/ Thread-Topic: libpw Subject: libpw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.4325 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2015 16:53:27.0198 (UTC) FILETIME=[932B93E0:01D0D5E8] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 18:12:05 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:54:25 -0000 Hello. I am interested in working on the libpw library (https://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage#libpw). I do not have a deep knowledge of pam/nss. Thank you and I apologize if I'm writing to the incorrect list. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Aug 13 20:08:46 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3389B8D41 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:08:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 875DA14B for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:08:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by iodt126 with SMTP id t126so64320072iod.2 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=sfFq1w1Oo/mznv3Ve6ueqJuotEzdLsFOZ/LahtkJzMk=; b=yOtfqIjWXwg/ImSkJYv843pqha44VdMNXTzPwgkTxw42BEB11Rq85r87jlgSa51VWd efUN1LLOaQYeuS7i9gkCqrXeifDThOEt+cgcNlpyFoPJozbBcidHfNEIXQrf/5zIwP/C s0G4j7NZ+ywROXBc9HLOglo0xgVxamf3BT8SNkRM6SYLUWK0or7QHYLFkQgqqK2WMx54 iXeqqnXknVFpFPgw1ozdLl4kNro3lVbOYJ6lK57KXMRrwyhT/uZerU8Z2jLNrB8wH7xM lNQx4YJZ1Fko+PoR7blNWJskpy9ByB315ozw/vDH43nrPoNFV+FB6RL7VeDnoYn662bW XFCA== X-Received: by 10.107.135.79 with SMTP id j76mr30250176iod.29.1439496525724; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:08:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.156.12 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:08:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7311511.ISQt3RZVgq@ralph.baldwin.cx> <20150813064227.GA85863@vlakno.cz> From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:08:26 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _1a1flDdYhGKzAQ_Szj4u8mlspk Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 support To: Bill Sorenson Cc: Roman Divacky , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:08:46 -0000 On 13 August 2015 at 03:20, Bill Sorenson wrote: > Thats what I'm working towards. Clang37 is on track to be imported to > current for 11 yes? Correct, we'll have at least Clang 3.7 in FreeBSD 11. If the timing works out it might well ship with Clang 3.8 instead. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Aug 13 20:37:11 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA959B82A8 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:37:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davide.italiano@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-x22f.google.com (mail-lb0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED496146; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:37:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davide.italiano@gmail.com) Received: by lbbtg9 with SMTP id tg9so34220937lbb.1; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:37:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=DaK8THBoLCQ9LoDcCcMdaU/tIOEk2u0biUwizVObaMc=; b=W4Bg44P7RohzSX82dJlzhx1uH2NqVvXCn1hYXu2l+3CAvBvwUoxePHFKGTkVFCXdbr 3q97fUKO3rVc+GJDiuq+n8d9wN2x5AGpTA92IAC0hkU5RV1cfhBW9yo007wmaxYQDWwT eXkHXcSKdgXx074ky3DXHLDtRzZxzCeu6X9XOeLDDa+ed9M92ngd7H9OvQag9CeTUmmp 2Zpa1eMtfTEGCy15xa5UZWWLMZHnoEfpyFaij044i7D3CW3dc950QdPPV22m+UIaPPS2 UJb8u0ERxqZ5iAiIMm7SQWWTICbWVH/efoNf1CS0MuSCon5h7kOwlEpFML3vXd8MmlKT utIQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.87.116 with SMTP id w20mr38407655laz.119.1439498228921; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.216.232 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:37:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5582CCF1.8010505@FreeBSD.org> References: <20150607081315.7c0f09fb@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <5573EA5E.40806@selasky.org> <20150607195245.62dc191f@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <20150607135453.GH2499@kib.kiev.ua> <558175FA.4040106@FreeBSD.org> <20150617165331.GA2080@kib.kiev.ua> <5582CCF1.8010505@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:37:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: allow ffs & co. a binary search From: Davide Italiano To: Andriy Gapon Cc: Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:18:56 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:37:11 -0000 On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > On 17/06/2015 19:53, Konstantin Belousov wrote: >> AFAIR it was about 'sufficiently smart compiler' and the fact that the >> functions are not on the hottest paths. > > It seems that sufficiently smart compilers still do not exist :-) > At least as far as compilers that are used for compiling FreeBSD are considered. > > [Offtopic] my impression is that lately smartness of compilers is mostly being > improved by various tricks and shortcuts (undefined behavior, etc), rather than > by recognizing patterns in the C code that could be turned into more efficient > machine code. > > -- > Andriy Gapon > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Sorry for resurrect an old thread. I fixed in LLVM upstream (I'll try to get this pulled in FreeBSD). http://llvm.org/viewvc/llvm-project?view=revision&revision=244947 It seems that we can still save another instruction, but LLVM is close enough to gcc now in code generation for this pattern. -- Davide "A mathematical theory is not to be considered complete until you have made it so clear that you can explain it to the first man whom you meet on the street." (D. Hilbert) From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Aug 14 01:37:56 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C076F99F23C for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 01:37:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BC70103E; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 01:37:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=U/Vqnbt+jc0mZSt7tsbmT/+jg/Fbn4vaHDuI5lckUk4=; b=S5TbPifeq/HTwHKaLaS6eUk2o2gKnLLt5J6IV0oEmZPsYV/PPimx6N19rfQnZCVP87wW/DAn33U2llsBaaNU4KUNVwqisf2qYFR+dWUtCumxr82mIxwD5tIOt1NIKAp6Eoko/upvBrnh5jP5dB2Psw/KOUbXaZx8S3/JuXayIjc=; Received: from [114.124.38.158] (port=57461 helo=X220.alogt.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQ3wL-0001xT-3m; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 19:37:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:37:43 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Davide Italiano Cc: Andriy Gapon , Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: allow ffs & co. a binary search Message-ID: <20150814093743.267af1c5@X220.alogt.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20150607081315.7c0f09fb@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <5573EA5E.40806@selasky.org> <20150607195245.62dc191f@B85M-HD3-0.alogt.com> <20150607135453.GH2499@kib.kiev.ua> <558175FA.4040106@FreeBSD.org> <20150617165331.GA2080@kib.kiev.ua> <5582CCF1.8010505@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 01:37:56 -0000 Hi, On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:37:08 -0400 Davide Italiano wrote: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > On 17/06/2015 19:53, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > >> AFAIR it was about 'sufficiently smart compiler' and the fact that > >> the functions are not on the hottest paths. > > > > It seems that sufficiently smart compilers still do not exist :-) > > At least as far as compilers that are used for compiling FreeBSD > > are considered. > > > > [Offtopic] my impression is that lately smartness of compilers is > > mostly being improved by various tricks and shortcuts (undefined > > behavior, etc), rather than by recognizing patterns in the C code > > that could be turned into more efficient machine code. > > > > -- > > Andriy Gapon > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Sorry for resurrect an old thread. > I fixed in LLVM upstream (I'll try to get this pulled in FreeBSD). > http://llvm.org/viewvc/llvm-project?view=revision&revision=244947 > It seems that we can still save another instruction, but LLVM is close > enough to gcc now in code generation for this pattern. > what does this mean? Does clang now recognise loops like this or is the built-in function now optimised? Erich