From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 01:55:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C77F2ADFD for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:55:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rroot@rootautomation.com) Received: from mail.4fast.net (mail.4fast.net [209.232.198.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.4fast.net", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59A848232A for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:55:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rroot@rootautomation.com) Received: (qmail 5785 invoked by uid 89); 4 Mar 2018 01:47:57 -0000 Received: by simscan 1.4.0 ppid: 5465, pid: 5633, t: 0.6839s scanners: clamav: 0.99.3/m:58/d:24361 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.101?) (rroot@rootautomation.com@162.254.181.135) by mail.4fast.net with ESMTPA; 4 Mar 2018 01:47:57 -0000 SavedFromEmail: rroot@rootautomation.com Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2018 17:47:54 -0800 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem In-Reply-To: Importance: normal From: Ryan Root To: cem@freebsd.org, John Darrah Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 01:55:27 -0000 SWYgcG9saXRpY3MgaXMgd2hlbiBhIGNvbW11bml0eSBoYWQgc3RhbmRhcmRzIGl0IG9wZXJhdGVk IGJ5IGJ1dCBpdCBzaG93ZWQgZmF2b3JpdGlzbSBub3QgZGlzY2lwbGluaW5nIGl0J3MgbWVtYmVy cyBpdCB0aG91Z2h0IHdlcmUgbW9yZSBpbXBvcnRhbnQgYW5kIGFsbG93ZWQgdGhlbSB0byBoYXJh 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+0300 To: John Darrah Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180304055433.10defcd1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 02:57:28 -0000 On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 17:30:14 -0500 John Darrah wrote: > FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that > developers and members must adhere to. There has been much backlash > online about it and about introducing identity politics into a > technical OS project in general. The Code of Conduct was adopted from > the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version, which claims (among other things) > that racism against whites doesn't exist, sexism against men doesn't > exist, and that certain protected classes of people should not be > criticised. > +1 All people on the Internet are equal, there is nothing to discuss. Any rules/CoC asserting the opposite are absurd. The more you learn about the relationships and decisions in FreeBSD, the more doubts it is to continue to deal with this. - Take the commit bit from an Iranian developer. (for me it's rumors, I can be wrong) - History with John Marino a year ago: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2017-February/107225.html - Now this strange code of conduct, when quite neutral could be taken: https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ and do not spend money. As for me personally, I do not understand where the logic is in many technical solutions, from those that I see. Perhaps these are differences of mentality and language. 1. The system does not still have the O_EVTONLY and O_NOATIME flags for open (). CoreTeam believes that FreeBSD should only work on servers? 2. 3+ years in the glib broken GFileMonitor and it was completely off then the applications crashed and eerily braked. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=199872 While 1+ year there were two solutions to the problem: a. go to libinotify and do not use the clumsy kqueue () code from glib b. use my alternative kqueue () code: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214338 As a result, wait clumsy patches of glib with which everything is still slow. I got the feeling that no one here at all does not care about FreeBSD users on workstations. 3. For 4 years there is still no support for modern LTE / 4g modems. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192345 I rolled up the patch, checked it, then I also made a couple of significant, I think, improvements in logic, as a result, my first version of the patch, slightly modified in the design, is added to the system. 4. I do not understand why I had to add an extra driver to the system "amdsmn - Family 17h System Management Network" which is only needed in amdtemp. https://reviews.freebsd.org/D12217 5. Constant begging in the mailing list to pay attention to the patches in the bugzilla and added to the ports / system. Otherwise, patches in bugzilla hang for months and years https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=223758 6. Imposing the use of poudriere port committers. 7. TCP stack which at considerable RTT and losses gives in times less speed than in Linux. The minimum set of CC algorithms in the base. In my experience CoreTeam (or whatever it is) is engaged in politics and code writing, and takes little care of both project and community management. I see how people who do much go away, nobody takes their place, nobody does their work. This is bad for the project and for users. Everything described above quite strongly demotivates me personally from any activity in the project. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 19:51:04 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB7EF2D2E8 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 19:51:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fox@davidlfox.uk) Received: from mx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (mx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.27.181.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D43906CB9C for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 19:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fox@davidlfox.uk) Received: from null (app-5.app.xion.oxcs.net [10.10.1.5]) by mta-1-out.mta.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 29AA539A3B4 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 19:45:17 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 20:45:17 +0100 (CET) From: David Fox Reply-To: David Fox To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> Subject: FreeBSD has a politics problem MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.8.4-Rev22 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 19:51:04 -0000 As a young adult user, webmaster and someone's who was trying to construct a project scope for using FreeBSD as replacement for our pre-existing systems within a animation studio, this is a let down. Diversity is a thing, and yes it's a big thing on the internet and in real life. I work with it everyday and its tricky. However not only do I feel offended as it kind of targets me but also embarrassed at the way this is going. How hard would of it been to gone to the community (You do have forums) "Here's a draft copy of our CoC, people read and get back to us with feedback by: date" but no its like "Take it or leave it" and reading the motto of "Shut up and Code And Conduct" from the email leak -- I'm sorry but that's just so rude. If not insulting. My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund. Let me remind what the homepage mentioned when I donated: "By donating to the foundation, you are helping us fund and manage projects, sponsor FreeBSD events, and provide travel grants to FreeBSD developers. You are also helping us represent the Project in executing contracts, license agreements, copyrights, trademarks, and other legal arrangements that require a recognized legal entity." Is the CoC any of this? And now If I am hearing right you're now using my donation money which had my intent on development and improvement to reach outside and hire someone who's not even related to the foundation, nor if any have any idea to the whole world of IT. It's just shameful. Not only does this effect the foundation but it also ruins the pitch I was hoping to show.. Thanks. Having moderators deleting sensible debates. Censorship, and an large email leak, yeah that really shows maturity. You got racism, rude remarks, insulting behavior all rolled into one and online now. Just my 2cents. I'm just someone who is trying to encourage FreeBSD's growth and someone in a younger generation which you need to push the drive. Everyone knows *nix but not really does anyone know FreeBSD. Stop the censorship and actually start listening to what users have to say. Politics have started to take over FreeBSD and the foundation is starting to turn blind with age. If not influenced by those who should really not have any say. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 21:03:49 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2C8F32C66 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 21:03:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mail-pl0-x241.google.com (mail-pl0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1FA76FAC5 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 21:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: by mail-pl0-x241.google.com with SMTP id c11-v6so8548822plo.0 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 13:03:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=R9ym6diZrZJ4H4NbMhUVe/XdEr9ZQ3dq84Nhx1XfdCc=; b=Cfx4f9HLFuezrWjR1SgneBCLXfQLnHdsJTB2Ig3ImfJqsHqlcx+KjXQ+0uEk+xTgZt q3mJYeUf1h4INYcw7jqJ4Q/5E4KbOHwMkDiXxB0p5ywq0TyUdU5yFpGWRC65XmIStAF8 VJ+FzOC6pQV1xEuE83ZEpja3BFccerE2hxb7BV31EtlQHX+fdHBDdyJGvpqeux5eiqxe 9+wHB/yCfZPVnTgmJVRynHtUFgtjnExx3BwqeG/eBOhWZ5EqnSh4A+wKnzxdVxI7fRZJ bx0EUvuugJWGLbWLcBQqHd064iRjCd7o7NdFW6b9WisSTdTJ0Qgw7Qb1Fnutwsr1agje 4uGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=R9ym6diZrZJ4H4NbMhUVe/XdEr9ZQ3dq84Nhx1XfdCc=; b=ehKQwPvPe80EiRw4K3CWAo2k6ce/TZPBAjmck57cvB1xKHAfUjyY9QvRwmwu8xzGzt lTvyZIuHdrqC/y7juI+ZVc5dE0LIynx6S3NLcukjWBjWVO6LSHfi+3M/dqAB23RSU3Nv wPaIGwLg71B097bsxlqRLfffSUGaaZCh7bLWbrTlXy3jv0Va7nFf3bHDO2hLDjnqvJpm j+QjhhiosEzeh/AJCuegEzZkU0uAWiTvkHyx0j2HzhwVyTSZggdhONwFE+u+JHbp609H WILhv4x4eGMtDzq4hpzeiQPXB6MotLzWuqZSIYFMgzFRO1w6azgx/irauzCCxGobJrnc miHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAFRZHo+b6o72x/3D78CNCmOddwSXAaDp7KPEaEiI8L1Zb8PEjl b+lKDRGiCMiC2EF92x6tvard9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtOhth9wMKVBXznn8OZTZMA5kbjkjxZdcqDF7vAw6VE6j1pEtKhnrUmJKqAzzPc7gyOMk/4bw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8c83:: with SMTP id t3-v6mr11273854plo.310.1520197426361; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 13:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-66-91-135-210.west.biz.rr.com (rrcs-66-91-135-210.west.biz.rr.com. [66.91.135.210]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u21sm17947372pfg.60.2018.03.04.13.03.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Mar 2018 13:03:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 11:02:58 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: John Darrah cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (BSF 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 21:03:49 -0000 Hi John, First of all this is really not an appropriate forum for this discussion. It is really unfortunate that these emails were leaked. However, I think if you take a careful look at them, you will find a couple examples of hostility but the great preponderance of them are quite reasonable discussion. People are sharing experiences, discussing how cultures other than western ones may be affected, what abuses have taken place, and what our aspirations for the project are. This mostly looks like healthy debate to me, understanding that the subject matter may create strong feelings all around. There is a lot of catastrophizing going on in the dialog, especially that on third party sites and among non-committers. I believe in the strength of the project and its members to avoid these worst case scenarios. I believe the vast majority of contributors are incredibly reasonable and desire a project where they can share their good work and be respected and respect others. It is unfortunate that a few have left but that seems quite rash to me at this stage. I would urge everyone to be calm and patient. This is an important dialog and it's bound to be bumpy. I also strongly urge people to refrain from discussing it further on technical lists where it is counter productive and unwelcome. Regards, Jeff On Sat, 3 Mar 2018, John Darrah wrote: > FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that developers and > members must adhere to. There has been much backlash online about it and > about introducing identity politics into a technical OS project in general. > The Code of Conduct was adopted from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version, > which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist, > sexism against men doesn't exist, and that certain protected classes of > people should not be criticised. > > Emails of the internal discussion about this controversial Code of Conduct > have now been leaked publicly, painting a picture of the disagreement in > the FreeBSD project about how this was handled. > > A number of developers, particularly benno@, phk@ and des@, have used racist > and sexist remarks against those criticising the far-reaching project policy > change, saying that the concerns about the policy essentially boil down to > "white male privilege" and being "on the wrong side of history". > > Other developers expressed concern about the policy being thrown upon them > with no discussion or debate, as well as The FreeBSD Foundation's choice > to pay an outside person (with donations from the users) to work on the > Code of Conduct's enforcement. Said person identifies as a feminist. > > Mods on BSD and FreeBSD-related subreddits are censoring posts, removing > threads, and banning users for posting the link. Colin Percival is among > the mods doing the removal. FreeBSD forum mods are also cracking down and > eliminating any discussion. Censorship is not the way to win culture wars. > > This file is an email archive in MBOX format. You can open it with any > email client (including the mail or mutt commands) or view it as plaintext > with any text editor. It contains just over 200 emails. > > View: > https://privatebin.net/?4c0fb59e63e8271e#irS3KFaEdtuFxsVM4xzQ4/llXLhSz0oZLV9WuOEUHBc= > > Download: > https://mega.nz/#!xBpHBSAb!ENyoYPopqGVlx320X-a4ecpRjJBtPvd9jmRT9h57eao > https://my.mixtape.moe/nhybsi.mbox > > I encourage you to read and form your own opinions, especially with regard > to how the project is handling donation money. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 22:32:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D481F39EDE for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:32:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fox@davidlfox.uk) Received: from mx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (mx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.27.181.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4BAD73DEE for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:32:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fox@davidlfox.uk) Received: from null (app-5.app.xion.oxcs.net [10.10.1.5]) by mta-2-out.mta.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CD1D6CCFED for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:24:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 23:24:35 +0100 (CET) From: David Fox Reply-To: David Fox To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> In-Reply-To: <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> References: <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.8.4-Rev22 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 22:32:53 -0000 Jeff, Please direct me where discussion is suppose to take place. Seeing as the foundation wants to censor such discussion posts. Pretty calm here but its irritating that there is no channel, even official to discuss. > On 04 March 2018 at 20:45 David Fox wrote: > > > As a young adult user, webmaster and someone's who was trying to construct a project scope for using FreeBSD as replacement for our pre-existing systems within a animation studio, this is a let down. > > Diversity is a thing, and yes it's a big thing on the internet and in real life. I work with it everyday and its tricky. However not only do I feel offended as it kind of targets me but also embarrassed at the way this is going. > > How hard would of it been to gone to the community (You do have forums) "Here's a draft copy of our CoC, people read and get back to us with feedback by: date" but no its like "Take it or leave it" and reading the motto of "Shut up and Code And Conduct" from the email leak -- I'm sorry but that's just so rude. If not insulting. > > My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund. > > Let me remind what the homepage mentioned when I donated: > > "By donating to the foundation, you are helping us fund and manage projects, sponsor FreeBSD events, and provide travel grants to FreeBSD developers. You are also helping us represent the Project in executing contracts, license agreements, copyrights, trademarks, and other legal arrangements that require a recognized legal entity." Is the CoC any of this? > > And now If I am hearing right you're now using my donation money which had my intent on development and improvement to reach outside and hire someone who's not even related to the foundation, nor if any have any idea to the whole world of IT. It's just shameful. Not only does this effect the foundation but it also ruins the pitch I was hoping to show.. Thanks. > > Having moderators deleting sensible debates. Censorship, and an large email leak, yeah that really shows maturity. You got racism, rude remarks, insulting behavior all rolled into one and online now. Just my 2cents. > > I'm just someone who is trying to encourage FreeBSD's growth and someone in a younger generation which you need to push the drive. Everyone knows *nix but not really does anyone know FreeBSD. Stop the censorship and actually start listening to what users have to say. Politics have started to take over FreeBSD and the foundation is starting to turn blind with age. If not influenced by those who should really not have any say. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 22:37:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963B2F3A40F for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:37:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 439B0740DF; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:37:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (unknown [127.0.1.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23B3A9BAD; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:37:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E581971E; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:37:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id IE66N74nKPHj; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:37:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.xzibition.com A7588717 To: David Fox , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <9b87cc32-2f28-d5f3-3590-24afc75ca19d@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:37:20 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JcIor06OkIRnzhMU5pTE3h3YjT06GGPZ6" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 22:37:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --JcIor06OkIRnzhMU5pTE3h3YjT06GGPZ6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MxZFuzhe0LAt3M7lipJIbFhu1sT3hChjE"; protected-headers="v1" From: Bryan Drewery To: David Fox , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <9b87cc32-2f28-d5f3-3590-24afc75ca19d@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem References: <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> In-Reply-To: <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> --MxZFuzhe0LAt3M7lipJIbFhu1sT3hChjE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/4/2018 2:24 PM, David Fox wrote: > Jeff, Please direct me where discussion is suppose to take place. Seein= g as the foundation wants to censor such discussion posts. Pretty calm he= re but its irritating that there is no channel, even official to discuss.= Note that Jeff's response was to a thread that had freebsd-current@ as a CC which is a strictly technical list. I don't think the same applies to freebsd-advocacy@. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --MxZFuzhe0LAt3M7lipJIbFhu1sT3hChjE-- --JcIor06OkIRnzhMU5pTE3h3YjT06GGPZ6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJanHUgAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPfCkIAJKd3mM1aNFG9wLUbq71TaP8 H3OlD95jocE1fPKRzwGcfHMR99tXnYTAplkfKjelOXsXbpruOVbG8BNqHiNA2fxP 1Pqugw+ahc8itB2TXYvmTmjH6V3qlak9vyxebcqwTxHQFv2/hmB91yRXYM2RI0P9 M2yl5Wemnc43QXIFRSKTKCXNn0uvQXolDAbqRDBzEzQgYHHu1X+/+WNQY/P2Ky0s PftiFI7hdcnBURLeMjeH404rbPn/8qasgrQWAU3pVG22jd1KL2Cbs+MUKOjxAAQp KgIc2eCDiRHmkrc8RF7vsLZbq5KtTzqPDyb+EDtf/8DbNENfxNa4gKJa72ixA6I= =kIcD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JcIor06OkIRnzhMU5pTE3h3YjT06GGPZ6-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 22:46:30 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDB5F3AE17 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:46:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsdfoundation.org) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 527F3746A4 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 22:46:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsdfoundation.org) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id l187so7795464ith.4 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 14:46:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsdfoundation.org; s=gfnp-20170908; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language:thread-index; bh=6iz9Ps6MMSX3SnmL8iEIYICPZCapomsd/jZniNC9+SU=; b=XclR7gMkrW/QKdi790TxMKXYnbvuyDgPvDkDNSjM6MOoZdTyHeV2qCHazlPYycqyCc tCEcdvvgSPkzEL9f0LBzgorMSWsyB+LSh7k1UECLNOyp/UT7WAjyfM6nz198uWa9tHSU VRb/flrhWyuCmVAMuoodvunkm7stRhwy3eTH6fPmIaw3udLNawwrulg8WOg4bvnnfrAi 8zfWhpWgEDSkxUq7kTJ3xsOrySwJjdsJgIupxCpt+cxqzZoT0FU7SUKn4u/BIMiow13t O00u9pgPtkLGKp+qCaOm/hiRfMuSdkrYKqKdOTs07vB4apeBvSVVKNcIy42ojDdNMCOO 0W9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=6iz9Ps6MMSX3SnmL8iEIYICPZCapomsd/jZniNC9+SU=; b=V0KaJRlHT8na2jwH9mWh/YIYRAuxJybRYFuR8iq1AUcdeRMxWR6fDz9ppwP37s5IzY PtlhLsIZjAbpBGcy2pM1jEELB62EQh6wFNRpI2T/ep0lEHxICrORmmwSsNvTM7ibgJoU Cwroi2xV9PWSUrZLHuZuD0gzTPnPudLdatZ6syQxs5qxoSSSqMgfs3yGsPtqlILZ5gWX 1lakjmnISyiVzg0TqoQgPm7dkUNwp8hPMyzUQQISmej00wmj/gLsknBd0GJWGDx6nM9W Hwc96LeVEEMzRYZFRE5tiuLPjj5RlhG6k0q3NtaWG1VS7ihftsekbXjn1naK0ZKIXm15 azHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EosOOvGqsvJ5jws6KNpY0TGh3vBLQoGdXMLBatHmNr/A21eJhZ rW4A2PAhtU0VpTPosiwQffmTvkJ8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuYWa504/52cpZE/mWCPli7QpNq7oDc9Rr8E/ZIYh2KNJbGCm3jtzXo8G82Bk5gbMVZFisxJw== X-Received: by 10.36.55.70 with SMTP id r67mr11908321itr.40.1520203589693; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 14:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from DebsPC (c-71-237-89-24.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [71.237.89.24]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 81sm3672270itl.41.2018.03.04.14.46.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Mar 2018 14:46:29 -0800 (PST) From: To: "'David Fox'" , References: <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> In-Reply-To: <11163049.2727.1520202275731@www.openxchange.eu> Subject: RE: FreeBSD has a politics problem Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 15:46:29 -0700 Message-ID: <1e0c01d3b40a$a34f1d20$e9ed5760$@freebsdfoundation.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQJYz5IWcsaVPAGsPMsaV32rFKTA/QGWTg2moqnB9tA= X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 22:46:31 -0000 Hi David, This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns regarding the Code of Conduct. Sincerely, Deb Goodkin Executive Director The FreeBSD Foundation -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of David Fox Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2018 15:25 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Jeff, Please direct me where discussion is suppose to take place. Seeing as the foundation wants to censor such discussion posts. Pretty calm here but its irritating that there is no channel, even official to discuss. > On 04 March 2018 at 20:45 David Fox wrote: > > > As a young adult user, webmaster and someone's who was trying to construct a project scope for using FreeBSD as replacement for our pre-existing systems within a animation studio, this is a let down. > > Diversity is a thing, and yes it's a big thing on the internet and in real life. I work with it everyday and its tricky. However not only do I feel offended as it kind of targets me but also embarrassed at the way this is going. > > How hard would of it been to gone to the community (You do have forums) "Here's a draft copy of our CoC, people read and get back to us with feedback by: date" but no its like "Take it or leave it" and reading the motto of "Shut up and Code And Conduct" from the email leak -- I'm sorry but that's just so rude. If not insulting. > > My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund. > > Let me remind what the homepage mentioned when I donated: > > "By donating to the foundation, you are helping us fund and manage projects, sponsor FreeBSD events, and provide travel grants to FreeBSD developers. You are also helping us represent the Project in executing contracts, license agreements, copyrights, trademarks, and other legal arrangements that require a recognized legal entity." Is the CoC any of this? > > And now If I am hearing right you're now using my donation money which had my intent on development and improvement to reach outside and hire someone who's not even related to the foundation, nor if any have any idea to the whole world of IT. It's just shameful. Not only does this effect the foundation but it also ruins the pitch I was hoping to show.. Thanks. > > Having moderators deleting sensible debates. Censorship, and an large email leak, yeah that really shows maturity. You got racism, rude remarks, insulting behavior all rolled into one and online now. Just my 2cents. > > I'm just someone who is trying to encourage FreeBSD's growth and someone in a younger generation which you need to push the drive. Everyone knows *nix but not really does anyone know FreeBSD. Stop the censorship and actually start listening to what users have to say. Politics have started to take over FreeBSD and the foundation is starting to turn blind with age. If not influenced by those who should really not have any say. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 01:11:03 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C88BF45421 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB2897A5A8 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:11:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w2519QcO029802 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:09:30 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w251AoAu093590 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:10:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w251AcIa087312 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:10:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803050110.w251AcIa087312@fire.js.berklix.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Sun, 04 Mar 2018 20:45:17 +0100." <912777970.2681.1520192717102@www.openxchange.eu> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 02:10:38 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 01:11:03 -0000 > My money may not be a sponsorship money but still donated; on belief what FreeBSD was doing right. Can I get a refund. Did the foundation really waste money on this ? https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html Bulleted elements are a bad mix of sensible & ridiculous. A few examples: "drugs": If someone is an alcy or druggy, code & commits need to be monitored. BSD is not art enhanceble with drugs. "employment": If code or commits emanate from an NSA employee it needs to be outed (pref. by self but any other will do) "*hug*" Shock ! Horror ! Heaven forfend such offense ! ;-) https://www.freebsdfoundation.org has no search box to find if/ how much was paid to make FreeBSD & its people look ridiculous. It reduced my interest to list the FreeBSD Foundation in my will (Wills usually list relatives & friends first if alive, but sometimes with a default of a group of charities as fallback) Rather than waste money on rubbish "based on the example policy from the Geek Feminism wiki" One could look at donating money for BSD _code_ via https://www.netbsd.org/foundation/ or possibly http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ we share BSD driver etc code after developed anyway. PS Re. censored media: jobs@freebsd is also censored. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 01:14:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B979BF45A9E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:14:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42A4F7A885 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:14:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w251CvrS029899 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:13:01 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w251EMcn093608; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:14:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w251Dv53087353; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:14:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> To: deb@freebsdfoundation.org cc: "'David Fox'" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Sun, 04 Mar 2018 15:46:29 -0700." <1e0c01d3b40a$a34f1d20$e9ed5760$@freebsdfoundation.org> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 02:13:57 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 01:14:34 -0000 deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: > Hi David, > > This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The > Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD > Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the > Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully > direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns > regarding the Code of Conduct. > > Sincerely, > > Deb Goodkin > Executive Director > The FreeBSD Foundation Hi Deb, Did the foundation pay for it ? Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 02:31:04 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A34AF25370 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:31:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclists@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x235.google.com (mail-qk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5CAE7DBAB for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:31:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclists@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id w142so18904214qkb.8 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 18:31:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UpLEhVaE53l+L88wthgxkJP+xv4eRo5TwdO0l0kPSFE=; b=ETnFJHabT3ZyML2sPMZxHXzNDELsPshszTeRNoCBvHP14Tfi6aFNVhVCEQE8bGAn0u 0nQ83IEyVYYLtzjnKdRIjeFX6glL+BDXzOUPR0fJGyoQp3ZTLWFjpe7FhjsPgg7ygQaB Xxt1r2f3WKy39UsLRB7tbtVkuaVxA6NdhjgpeNnJrZRJb203wWGInJJA52ejGj+HmLNV Geh1Bde9Mb69kUUQiS8yxZN71czN5XkQOryUTjgn+I9AAFScfGrWamdJFFYxUS4eqTmi dM+t89IIBvIZf1/wBRkWyftmpf9XUgcggHqQpN2TGMYZd7L7IawdGc5DIy5l+/8L744l if+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UpLEhVaE53l+L88wthgxkJP+xv4eRo5TwdO0l0kPSFE=; b=G8CPJdMCsbgwNbHMu2V1lKUsJ+GC1un2lj8stZXGtjTAAD+s/R/sdCyZYkGuw/mZLw z+bvM4RiUN2n3a8f2SlDR46hai6Boau48D4YRu6nbf+gAolWTYyZit6Liz1J1DoB8LwO hDP+P6TYDypbvWM0G+6EW0m83GYJOtrAC7SSLe7HR91xdbmAaf0nT9zl3mrjdNbk5lNO RDOveQDXQ+VTH2ciyFo5DqJ5iLq39icQmMC/0wPkTGf4Q6B9RBaf4Dz1BViYdTp3MVtW xz+8ovQmKcbFsE9dqTBSlFYnL1JcbJxlwTYG5wYZmfPD9KdJEVHBsTLOcOiz20XHgGPo /HSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Gz8UsKMDWI9gkJuGPXrclVy+5nRWgT9h0502aVIeYrIzmb1rhY SSrW0ETzpsj5wUPCMDvpwsUc2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvMXae1l/uc42Rb/UJDf5DVxOlnV0eIeslz4W9SCu+R+0HqSkvxBbRXTcsdQzMc3HLj+rK2ZQ== X-Received: by 10.55.167.204 with SMTP id q195mr19025715qke.164.1520217063321; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 18:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (ool-4572f03e.dyn.optonline.net. [69.114.240.62]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r22sm8307908qkr.21.2018.03.04.18.31.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Mar 2018 18:31:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: deb@freebsdfoundation.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Stephen Cook Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 21:31:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 02:31:04 -0000 On 2018-03-04 20:13, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: >> Someone else on this thread can hopefully >> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns >> regarding the Code of Conduct. Where? > Did the foundation pay for it ? I would like to know also please. -- Stephen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 02:38:44 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23EFF25E0C for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:38:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wtheesfeld@mailbox.org) Received: from mx2.mailbox.org (mx2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.mailbox.org", Issuer "SwissSign Server Silver CA 2014 - G22" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31A6A7E169 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:38:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wtheesfeld@mailbox.org) Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B5E540F44; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 03:32:42 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h= references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date:date :in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-type:received; s=mail20150812; t=1520217150; bh=OdsIVsF Fuew07l78ECkI/KkZETwgSbfNanBMdsxPPUc=; b=WdmhmNAC1XKnM5Vo08M1guk WJ3H2pwH0V0M7KF/Ynv5IiXkWRmHcFGbRki9OWksWxtHfo/nzcmofjwiWf9CJE46 PIQs/Wau4bFwlk7Jq9XFv/LaOVU8hUUFHSfvqPrQqjj4stIb3wAO3h91RrKVxmWH FMlTqVkjxSnzUWiIK65Nwv2NW/k+aHJbfsJy2wd4okbDPeNb5OtWIs2RtwcFlvcm PnsciHNdMiLG6/FXi7T/Y2UcDerXQX7vavfr7qpF01zcVaCCDdmZFKgcLno4m+sR IKpnpZd2QTIavEfMR174j/DryZISZdtiXWYHJ5+A4nA1Er24lBrl35AL/j7b7Ig= = X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by gerste.heinlein-support.de (gerste.heinlein-support.de [91.198.250.173]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id mRHqcee7WxwS; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 03:32:30 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: William Theesfeld Jr In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 21:32:27 -0500 Cc: deb@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <1444DB76-AA9C-4D71-91FF-2F7D2F6B8333@mailbox.org> References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Stephen Cook Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 02:38:44 -0000 I as well am curious < ) ( \=20 =E2=80=94X=E2=80=94 > On Mar 4, 2018, at 21:31, Stephen Cook wrote: >=20 >> On 2018-03-04 20:13, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: >>> Someone else on this thread can hopefully >>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns >>> regarding the Code of Conduct.=20 >=20 > Where? >=20 >> Did the foundation pay for it ?=20 >=20 > I would like to know also please. >=20 >=20 > -- Stephen >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 04:24:36 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1929F2E50A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 04:24:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deepbluemistake@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot0-x233.google.com (mail-ot0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D9C781B94 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 04:24:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deepbluemistake@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n74so13779082ota.1 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 20:24:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2eqnOoMoMAZeT4ZtxufT0fgozqbHV/1uKYb4RtlyKT4=; b=iczWRkHNITbC4gV8ffyeU/kqmXypj+1p/p3t323dbl6WdasZWYUioy+YIB8ntmSGlD 7eA1ykXnN/VMpfXLgsU62iiOwg9Hwwzo2GgvUaMsUnl8/tCp0J2t5UkX8t0HT1cHHbSm 1v8s0INF15yUAMRnaRgbVVJJZNKgHeyQiPdWikMTXdezxCyUqs7tpQ/YNXEpHgxKEgVb q1Kch+pG3OWHdEEq8P+isIJm7eiSHjuVsaGKF1fSXx3lwGiFJtTfEwjIzJy+H9/4KoXx nL4UhJijFfJ1qxhcII8dHz7o1G56ubNyf61gOD6gTSdwGEC/zo+LtUJdUfsgEdfo/ufY pjrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2eqnOoMoMAZeT4ZtxufT0fgozqbHV/1uKYb4RtlyKT4=; b=F0WZIiz36DVeiM0TTr2tkvUnEIYOt3SiujD0eTTztllP2MxtUMB4AG75LsQqbwoP53 IntxEIJkgfzcwwDoD3VxZo9VS9C67dm4PUXkl9JfkUVEpcAnitcQ31qmJ+tZA8HntPMj min8s6OwmZkDnS9MnNYER/dnC0dUC/fQneK6us65GknhZ4ecLN+uQlUuk6CfS0/OpRo+ pTJSf7qXi3yjUxuyRHDFcRxFlFoABxnQizAQfZtnlLFZM/y10xn9jIyQ71Gto38aVnLt SPYC3pKi//d864o8zwQRJI91Pwk6ExDjJq4OAtojNxQte7eyst3XPC5Km/++Dvp+GO9C d5iA== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPDN+3YYOZOoU+NgRiyxW/l71Y7GwIKmCAs6m/uOFIGCh8I6K1uw jtSHCnej16xunMRQldZU1zD44ruFOaBDN4Gj2TfdBw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvAecagP3N3bhgHhdTvEyrH9HNYwxvWm+f3kNC+KtSr/okPL1bWtQSYhOEaSe+CIrTOB/Kj7OtuB+Zq9nq22ag= X-Received: by 10.157.40.18 with SMTP id m18mr9036654otb.245.1520223875255; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 20:24:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.59.213 with HTTP; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 20:24:34 -0800 (PST) From: Andras Farkas Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 23:24:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: The word "leaked" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 04:24:36 -0000 > Please do not leak internal, private project emails. > It is really unfortunate that these emails were leaked. If you want to engage in secrecy, conspiracy, hiding, and sneaking: work on closed source software, not open source software. What do you have to hide from FreeBSD users? Why should users trust people who hide things from them? I'm not joking. Why work on open-source software if you dislike open-source? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance Go get a job with a for-profit corporation, sign a NDA, and have all the secrecy you desire. This has nothing to do with the subject of any leaked email, but with the fact that it's even considered a leak. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 06:40:50 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94F1F35B69; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 06:40:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from franco@lastsummer.de) Received: from host64.shmhost.net (host64.shmhost.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:a0:51d7::103:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67FC585FB6; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 06:40:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from franco@lastsummer.de) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:25:233:448b:17ce:95ca:50a4] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:25:233:448b:17ce:95ca:50a4]) by host64.shmhost.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5ABEB165097; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 07:40:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: Franco Fichtner In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 07:40:48 +0100 Cc: John Darrah , "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> References: To: Jeff Roberson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.3 at host64.shmhost.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 06:40:51 -0000 Hi there, > On 4. Mar 2018, at 10:02 PM, Jeff Roberson = wrote: >=20 > First of all this is really not an appropriate forum for this = discussion. Nobody discusses it elsewhere. "Decisions" are made between closed = doors. How anyone would think this doesn't blow up later is at least = unreasonable. > There is a lot of catastrophizing going on in the dialog, especially = that on third party sites and among non-committers. This is where the project friction is at. In a perfect world you don't need users, external contributors and fresh ideas to keep a project = moving forward, but we are not in a perfect world. I personally find it silly to keep begging for 6 years for someone to = commit something. It has gotten to a point where I'd rather not bother to = contribute because working around issues is less time-consuming. In community management terms, that's a major flaw. > I would urge everyone to be calm and patient. This is an important = dialog and it's bound to be bumpy. I also strongly urge people to = refrain from discussing it further on technical lists where it is = counter productive and unwelcome. So you are saying "shut up" and be patient like we've never been patient = in the last couple of years? That's bold, but unfortunately also = consistent MO. Cheers, Franco= From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 08:12:37 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8712EF3BD5E; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 08:12:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from madis555@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE36669FF3; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 08:12:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from madis555@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id z9so13574107wmb.3; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 00:12:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=N7rTTfEUXNIJdhhsg+FgUwVIF1VGOQPeUVDheotCH6U=; b=eQ/Vcu0PiGJ43cFbGbuPYpJIn5HsssmQSQUPKYUf0BFsd0dug0F7fZJ4Slk0goUI7H fSYXAJiQ1K83H09kf7IjTengSHEmUnagnfBfzs5DWoOFpycAjebPbTl8LDJqt+bN/mk8 HCg44zUEVfwabQI7lLp/OMRXvx3eNa3Dmp4hV+qDGUzjK/borqW2vU6vWPwlOKkd3E/M v3COrz8SgfpuIuz9Mali0BYBSZCkinP0XbsQSVC1oOVKb9xwTSdDlaG2jypaQLvieKdp dD9MME4hZIw9rrocTzONacYPEl6nvLAQtmnEYMVWKutraaa3HMOOtHlu0ZskRNek+9kZ tj3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N7rTTfEUXNIJdhhsg+FgUwVIF1VGOQPeUVDheotCH6U=; b=bMcMctWh3oQeg2nE+1pV16nbuAC30uuB6T0UGyfdqkG4+ZzbIWZCRFl9vcmofN3u2Y 5ed7gGpuXJlRhbbXeaIkbq6DItcbW/OLCf2AaGk5GwhSggV43I7JPppOptT6XPdbXKR4 EXrxFOJggEA+bK2tNymxV/Bukbodu84QmybxU1OCM2gPuwZnwwO31YMQkBhJ9nK0aOXL 1jAaeFFwnNi9YbpDsOrHKAEevmhQW3M4syecH7hmlH/Cu/7DoFFEaYxJ1PMGujGUcRER fbvBmo1AxJIclH9TAThprNOg2PR9lVOTIgYCUH1wMiNidJY3aob7Q+YXVP0Xp4dB2TYL UAdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HtKyTiIAX/fmhJa4A38f8gUmWtHucRsLhIOVkH226myxL76CXM r2sjkkYSUd4XDmS9LPrpD0RlOmnp5tu3k8vpxnEHDg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsNTFTn/Oj/w6ABARp5pClNhPHNhB8z2Qg8zi3rQp6YnU5rXCao4MhFUjjJVQ8Kit1DUCVZYi8bPikfCytMSek= X-Received: by 10.28.54.150 with SMTP id y22mr6818026wmh.74.1520237555722; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 00:12:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: madis555@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.135.130 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 00:12:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> From: Sulev-Madis Silber Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 10:12:34 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: NAW69hnhh-zEc-IWzGeVVyfvY0E Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: freebsd-current Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 08:12:37 -0000 I knew this would be end result of that coc(k) being whipped out. Also, I'm sure that it's not feminism you hate, it's that some idiots hide under that blanket and imagine they can't be attacked anymore. Why did that need for a new set of weird rules come out anyway? Right now it feels like successful trolling. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 08:37:35 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B279F3E3C6 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 08:37:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 199696C56F for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 08:37:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1700AEAA; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:37:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 02:37:27 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Andras Farkas Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The word "leaked" Message-ID: <20180305083726.GA32582@lonesome.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 08:37:35 -0000 On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 11:24:34PM -0500, Andras Farkas wrote: > What do you have to hide from FreeBSD users? Why should users trust > people who hide things from them? When I posted email to an internal list, I was under the impression that it would remain confidential. Someone, I don't know who, has violated that presumption of confidentiality; that rudeness seems to have been skipped in this meta-discussion. The way I might say something to someone in a small group of people may not be the same way I would phrase it if I knew I was talking to the whole world. I might feel freer to express doubts and questions without having every single word I said analyzed for correctness, by N people, M of whom I don't even know. If I have to carefully police every single thing I say in every single venue, so that someone, somewhere, won't raise a stink, I might as well give up this hobby and just read webcomics. mcl From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 17:37:40 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCA8F424EC; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91854858C2; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (unknown [127.0.1.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7517B1EF3B; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7F81307; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:37:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id l_SoE26pyUdm; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:37:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.xzibition.com DC9AD1302 To: Franco Fichtner , Jeff Roberson , Sulev-Madis Silber Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <65fa9b49-e817-f403-a549-8d1fd836491d@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 09:37:37 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VgXMi88jSDGzQvSqQdEj8PuTCUEje9whQ" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:37:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --VgXMi88jSDGzQvSqQdEj8PuTCUEje9whQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="iqojjqlUVx9ruAanhq2eDlqkuSFc0HDuJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Bryan Drewery To: Franco Fichtner , Jeff Roberson , Sulev-Madis Silber Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <65fa9b49-e817-f403-a549-8d1fd836491d@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> In-Reply-To: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> --iqojjqlUVx9ruAanhq2eDlqkuSFc0HDuJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/4/2018 10:40 PM, Franco Fichtner wrote: > Hi there, >=20 >> On 4. Mar 2018, at 10:02 PM, Jeff Roberson w= rote: >> >> First of all this is really not an appropriate forum for this discussi= on. > Nobody discusses it elsewhere. "Decisions" are made between closed doo= rs. > How anyone would think this doesn't blow up later is at least unreasona= ble. >=20 I said this in a reply not CC'd to freebsd-current@, but Jeff is right about "this" not being an appropriate forum for discussion. freebsd-current@ is a strictly technical list. I will only ask that further replies not CC freebsd-current@ and stick to freebsd-advocacy@ only where it seems like a more appropriate place for this sort of discussion. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --iqojjqlUVx9ruAanhq2eDlqkuSFc0HDuJ-- --VgXMi88jSDGzQvSqQdEj8PuTCUEje9whQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJanYBhAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPaSwIAMpbaFyZTK1hCeFg7yoFQNGD 6tOLrknaNox5xzbMNve0C5B4ktW/BXtJkOPyvhDOsdKSFLkY77OQ2K/sIQ97CpXS 5kiTqdhFQfsmOcWsR4asNvWUJHDQtnOdzNf+GnP914sgXa9OB82ZxGZa8msobQKe rGIXttLUQS9t5TQZx6W7JxgBZTtmGmgKPmEHAi74xvZJrd8a9ue73V/V+NOGZx1b wK5aXa41Xlwl9hTAd5OBWyMeOqV2YbP5qvGa6UaRSt05cn8YOvv2e7hfGS5t44ds Ey0VeP31ifnziemQKUARXOzsX54S34KxdAdpSpd3SsOo/dygLdSX/ETEKU1qmZA= =W/4C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VgXMi88jSDGzQvSqQdEj8PuTCUEje9whQ-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 17:51:05 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A32F4305E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:51:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47C2285FD6; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:51:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (unknown [127.0.1.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 245B91F16D; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:51:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56901132C; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:51:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id YovuX6uOALs3; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:51:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.xzibition.com 7264D1327 To: "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 09:51:01 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:51:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Bryan Drewery To: "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. Th= e >> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD >> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the >> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hope= fully >> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns >> regarding the Code of Conduct.=20 >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Deb Goodkin >> Executive Director >> The FreeBSD Foundation >=20 > Hi Deb, > Did the foundation pay for it ?=20 The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on either side. It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project asked for community feedback. IMHO it's not too late to go down those paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions of the CoC are only good; that the project should be more welcoming for everyone. There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC, even if it had flaws. It likely would need to help sponsor independent reviews to weed out unneutral language. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1-- --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJanYOGAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPWGkH/2yE2enZhHvESrdzgi38vs5Q fPYVVieTkNen/W8eJf7m3e9MyLVI0WC5F4ZKlUPLOrJJGWU4gCmuxjUFKdawk4hT R+8aXKMWakN6mdSfRtGl8EFvuxoI4onJ7r4/yN2eqGIWDyQ9w2GfNeMhJ9N13pud SPsOG55bfIGatLStwKwmajTpVgZkgqMkyeZop8DRzIiMJPZqEjogBTG3J6AAIzbx cLOiNcglRxkZLTVPko2Qs16R/eLCQ7VAcDUCF8ueBpDZH9m7PiRZBsoAxAwwjX0y 9hvFJm1TkG5JjM0pgSM5CfKJRBhOlvxM1dVmVd4OTSYpOGWlyWduUonkYjQxkqY= =KgRE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 19:10:06 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB92F48155 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:10:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DA3E694F3; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:10:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w25J8VC4064268 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:08:35 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w25J9taj098976; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:09:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w25J9b8s029105; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:09:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Bryan Drewery cc: deb@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 05 Mar 2018 09:51:01 -0800." Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 20:09:37 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 19:10:06 -0000 Bryan Drewery wrote: > This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) > --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1"; > protected-headers="v1" > From: Bryan Drewery > To: "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem > References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> > In-Reply-To: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> > > --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Language: en-US > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: > >> Hi David, > >> > >> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. Th= > e > >> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD > >> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the > >> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hope= > fully > >> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns > >> regarding the Code of Conduct.=20 > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> Deb Goodkin > >> Executive Director > >> The FreeBSD Foundation > >=20 > > Hi Deb, > > Did the foundation pay for it ?=20 > > The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on > either side. FreeBSD are at liberty to reject a non FreeBSD outsider who wrote this especially if they were paid to write it, even more so if the paid outsider hopes rules she/he wrote they'd like to see imposed on us. > It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC > had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project > asked for community feedback. ** A draft & period for comment should have been mandatory, omiting it suggests arrogance or incompetence. > IMHO it's not too late to go down those > paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions > of the CoC are only good; Maybe, or not, See ** above. > that the project should be more welcoming for > everyone. There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC, > even if it had flaws. I think legaly Foundation is not answerable to FreeBSD just to the few who founded the foundation. Nothing wrong with FreeBSD rejecting an unwanted gift as incompetent waste of money - if they want. > It likely would need to help sponsor independent > reviews to weed out unneutral language. Whoever sprung this on FreeBSD community without warning should be admonished. FreeBSD Foundation could ask for a refund from the incompetent who wrote it, & Foundation in turn could refund those such as the person who asked "Can I have a refund". Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 19:28:09 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4CFF4959F for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:28:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EF9A6A075; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:28:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (unknown [127.0.1.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25C09B30; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:28:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F1F1516; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:28:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id 72w1Y7TdWc_u; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:28:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.xzibition.com 4EC121511 To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org References: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <55739682-e3d2-52fd-15a5-f89d16e2dcde@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 11:28:04 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Dfb89j1723L9zFot341vqJ5ixcKpqkUga" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 19:28:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Dfb89j1723L9zFot341vqJ5ixcKpqkUga Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m"; protected-headers="v1" From: Bryan Drewery To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org Message-ID: <55739682-e3d2-52fd-15a5-f89d16e2dcde@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem References: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> --AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/5/2018 11:09 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Bryan Drewery wrote: >> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) >> --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo >> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyK= kOJvV1"; >> protected-headers=3D"v1" >> From: Bryan Drewery >> To: "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org >> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >> Message-ID: >> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem >> References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> >> In-Reply-To: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> >> >> --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >> Content-Language: en-US >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >>> deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. = Th=3D >> e >>>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD >>>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the >>>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can ho= pe=3D >> fully >>>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns >>>> regarding the Code of Conduct.=3D20 >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Deb Goodkin >>>> Executive Director >>>> The FreeBSD Foundation >>> =3D20 >>> Hi Deb, >>> Did the foundation pay for it ?=3D20 >> >> The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on >> either side. >=20 > FreeBSD are at liberty to reject a non FreeBSD outsider who wrote this > especially if they were paid to write it, even more so if the paid > outsider hopes rules she/he wrote they'd like to see imposed on us. >=20 >=20 >> It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC >> had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project >> asked for community feedback. >=20 > ** A draft & period for comment should have been mandatory, > omiting it suggests arrogance or incompetence. >=20 >=20 >> IMHO it's not too late to go down those >> paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentio= ns >> of the CoC are only good; >=20 > Maybe, or not, See ** above. >=20 >=20 >> that the project should be more welcoming for >> everyone. There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,= >> even if it had flaws. >=20 > I think legaly Foundation is not answerable to FreeBSD just to the > few who founded the foundation. Nothing wrong with FreeBSD rejecting > an unwanted gift as incompetent waste of money - if they want. >=20 >=20 >> It likely would need to help sponsor independent >> reviews to weed out unneutral language. >=20 > Whoever sprung this on FreeBSD community without warning should be admo= nished. >=20 > FreeBSD Foundation could ask for a refund from the incompetent who > wrote it, & Foundation in turn could refund those such as the person > who asked "Can I have a refund". >=20 The language and tone you are using only diminishes your voice, and frankly violates any average or common sense CoC. This was not done by 1 person or "outsider", it was done by a group of people and signed off by core@ (as I understand it). I think mistakes were made but attacking everyone involved won't achieve any positive results. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m-- --Dfb89j1723L9zFot341vqJ5ixcKpqkUga Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJanZpFAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPhfIIAIzJC+Q0OpElb5dEBJoGgT2v QirJTWYenCHVv2Hc17BgxYLZvcJ/yek2iREP5R5YuW0qJNkLobVVGYFFGm8TEXTS uvRflLbW8oYA1NAqqFyv56t6YvUTbZS+jNfIPUoM5eH1dxCj+fUo+y+bnP2NVTP7 H5rgIi4aeEnSjjOk6+BMPmn15vL+cqHbtOx9E8sjdFDnLy8J1VV0kG6CIHQf3mdk 2hF9AZ82ts3dR8gZYWv+heTdj969t6rj7oeRzoXPO2FKyclk+VW47276WXmS0Wr3 PbEmb+TD92RImp/4oh0evw0O5Ok++MzvAWN6eZgDUM64upkeQOt7MTHU0gOFJDk= =1s1U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Dfb89j1723L9zFot341vqJ5ixcKpqkUga-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 19:48:28 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F021FF4A8CA for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:48:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclists@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt0-x233.google.com (mail-qt0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88D7F6AAEF; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:48:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclists@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt0-x233.google.com with SMTP id r16so21785300qtm.4; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 11:48:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cYaOo7g2t6L6SVf009WnTqxgov0uCYeMYweEDCkPTWI=; b=oCBfkAuR3jk4JVhKcrhsPP0d8+oKH0HJBpvuoEu5RcIc8O7IdS6JmQ7UoDEv9L1HCs 7tb8XPh6H2qObLrllJR0yyXYPHhcb4EGYAxcRQxv2M/5Z9scrsJxTd4GzOsJVdLHABWw uVFCJfT7Dra1mWSjwEUVFkQXdtPaPXs1rd2PzqHgJeWKO0DZnktPPBxBQEhwsKIhGuLk 8kejV2idOLuGhmwWIaWM9CxReUSiNjt6y60Tt39+6S/4xR1thaibsbSV+67JxG+U+9Pa bsrzoa5qKyzZZWiQa+PmwOm6EuJSlPcF0DQwGRbbpA+ZCNweMd4Lq4BDZ6Jg+7dsanFY LRsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cYaOo7g2t6L6SVf009WnTqxgov0uCYeMYweEDCkPTWI=; b=VMXZk00zXAGAsgBmB1nFZhoO1RZmsBtyluukmUBcE82FX0NDTLTwr0YOrgwcE3ddqR 96JIbjcpV5M7hIZ+3h8+oODY2JSIDVmcjUnd8QwjnvHdmMsp0SIRMDjlPTzOSTpqvocG vAmvBIHXdOfWgY1OtGZtLxis8eXZTMkIebHV6/UXhxS3S0N60HLcC+HeAdKq/Br3KLxR adhn4czIvZh+XY5kUWuFimcO97kKHlrmmD20/C2tmHJP6dwlghkJC19PPVWlL+A7kjfx u9XgpbGrJTdwJuQp9jaCph9lLipcBle/4942NxrIm0wLAc8YB4MniVBY9v3VLGd8esSd XPBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GZuqqljf1tvjWYRjEKbEwsLARnWKrMa0zNIRl34SdiqViWmE87 0tX26bsKP0GIYsG5tAglo/OsCHfb X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtI9KrDZOTvGIW//B+BHgxBF5u3FAzJtnmTYEqAPrJiZy//sfmL80l7eg6qS/xQBEzWbGS85A== X-Received: by 10.237.46.33 with SMTP id j30mr24916717qtd.26.1520279306896; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 11:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (ool-4572f03e.dyn.optonline.net. [69.114.240.62]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u16sm8559349qke.97.2018.03.05.11.48.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 11:48:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: Bryan Drewery , "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Stephen Cook Message-ID: <769a3928-0571-255a-3bb2-b6069c7dbf33@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:48:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 19:48:28 -0000 On 2018-03-05 12:51, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: >>> Hi David, >>> >>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. The >>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD >>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the >>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can hopefully >>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns >>> regarding the Code of Conduct. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Deb Goodkin >>> Executive Director >>> The FreeBSD Foundation >> >> Hi Deb, >> Did the foundation pay for it ? > > The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on > either side. It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC > had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project > asked for community feedback. IMHO it's not too late to go down those > paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentions > of the CoC are only good; that the project should be more welcoming for > everyone. There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC, > even if it had flaws. It likely would need to help sponsor independent > reviews to weed out unneutral language. The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own set of rules, secretly. I have seen it happen to other open source projects, and other places in the world and on the internet. They are specialists at being offended, and experts at milking money from foundations and organizations to make sure those organizations properly babysit their members so that nobody publicly insults said experts / extremists or their chosen protected classes. They bully and intimidate with threats of "outing" people as racist sexist etc, regardless of whether it is true or not (they only want to shut up opposition, even if is opposition to their tactics and not their cause). You think it was an accident this was done behind closed doors? They know they cannot survive the sunlight. It doesn't matter if they are vaguely moving in the general direction of a better society... their tactics make them pure evil, and I do not support it. Sorry if this counts as "demonizing" or "othering" but I do not stand by anyone who tries to insert themselves as the new master of how I think and speak. I suspect from the lack of response to my earlier question that I accidentally paid for this when I thought I was donating to help develop an OS. Future FreeBSD donations will now go somewhere else. -- Stephen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 20:51:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535A0F27A35 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:51:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B98976D866; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:51:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11DAB2CB; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:51:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:51:31 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Stephen Cook Cc: Bryan Drewery , "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180305205130.GA3332@lonesome.com> References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> <769a3928-0571-255a-3bb2-b6069c7dbf33@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <769a3928-0571-255a-3bb2-b6069c7dbf33@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 20:51:34 -0000 On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 02:48:26PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote: > The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group > of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own > set of rules, secretly. This is exactly not what happened. > I suspect from the lack of response to my earlier question that I > accidentally paid for this when I thought I was donating to help develop > an OS. An alternate explanation is that people are tired of going through every sentence of every post about this, word by word, and trying to respond in a way that cannot possibly be misconstrued. tl:dr; your conclusion is wrong. I myself have neither the time nor motivation to respond to every single message on this subject; it's demotivating. I suspect most of the posters have already made up their minds, in any case. mcl From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 22:18:00 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4E8F2ECE7 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:18:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclists@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x243.google.com (mail-qk0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E725370AD9; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:17:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclists@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk0-x243.google.com with SMTP id j4so22576674qke.10; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:17:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZhjYzVbhNLqJvr7bBa/4Ksa1WQW2Aw29/ETjGGm0Wgs=; b=NBE/U/lHb/2qKPnWzBVQkFnsFPLox2RG5lXqfG+JJX+oE3k2JnSaai3jjbfm9iuquw xbtDQtvysj+fURC0MuodQpp2duQPrvUXt+78gfn5+0guFaJSuNzrrAtjnYsNzztAvGkn 326HFINdEWMaLwfYsGRJoG4pAf0Dv/x3nFuUjB8T/J6X/YorvoKECXLkTIF2+IbLHluq OqQE60Byid0TukatiuosDbQDx0OTXOKUZ+DnsShKaX4vbzIUFV2POj0P23HTYFcII+9m qqMtkKh8AkXYtHxBt/bQVuJpYfIr6dYn6E8tHhTo4cQ1nOdum38LY/NzlofqqU6EksJm NMdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZhjYzVbhNLqJvr7bBa/4Ksa1WQW2Aw29/ETjGGm0Wgs=; b=NnyJoe+Tr6WhB3FyAbAXPKT9tvFeSgemSyQJLsU3AZl6uJLeUBc4cZrIA4c3ShjjMB L+GixqBqdAK1T0Wbxo9tMvFTNaVgidsxaR/kW2mmuZ3TsOB/yE4zso17Q2CXmBzf322l PFtjOP1FNfyO2y00VI/sG1RnCa7+jdVUoRHMgSD9YhABKwDHGNhRDhpqXpesNJZkT8Q6 I0CC+zFyk/2R3i65qROezZkt/Z6Rti0Avo0oZJWMq2U3upRECT7oisEK2fM0TWT4+2BY c0ocYz6eygPUVwwgc9j9dTYNLCs9mlOeGHzcj/tIJ/xJn6o/9EJzQ3HKFs7SzpwWvQR5 f9dA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Hoi6ThbrinEOLH3469j5CTd0MmLLhqvUi3+m0V/VpUDz1MNarr NZse36947gGqjGPH2lCz6KAbHk/e X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtCQFlls4HFIapQkZvvVKinQWUwFiT2LbqvxiuCr5iYRt7azMjG0FGRcVADi2jDZON8bv5vXA== X-Received: by 10.55.66.77 with SMTP id p74mr25312648qka.55.1520288279370; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (ool-4572f03e.dyn.optonline.net. [69.114.240.62]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k29sm10083074qtc.45.2018.03.05.14.17.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:17:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: Mark Linimon Cc: Bryan Drewery , "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> <769a3928-0571-255a-3bb2-b6069c7dbf33@gmail.com> <20180305205130.GA3332@lonesome.com> From: Stephen Cook Message-ID: <3aa00142-eed7-cc2a-4661-6d6289dc8f18@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:17:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180305205130.GA3332@lonesome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:18:00 -0000 On 2018-03-05 15:51, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 02:48:26PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote: >> The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group >> of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own >> set of rules, secretly. > > This is exactly not what happened. Points of view will differ. Last I heard, there was a debate over whether it was appropriate or not to even have a CoC. Now it already exists, and is very obviously written by SJWs. >> I suspect from the lack of response to my earlier question that I >> accidentally paid for this when I thought I was donating to help develop >> an OS. > > An alternate explanation is that people are tired of going through every > sentence of every post about this, word by word, and trying to respond > in a way that cannot possibly be misconstrued. I haven't seen many posts about this, maybe you mean in the secret mailing list? It is a simple yes or no question, did money donated to the foundation pay these people to write this trash? I am not the first nor only one to ask. There is nothing to misconstrue or dance around. I cannot find this information on the site. > tl:dr; your conclusion is wrong. Some transparency would help people better understand what is going on. > I myself have neither the time nor motivation to respond to every single > message on this subject; it's demotivating. I suspect most of the posters > have already made up their minds, in any case. But you had time and motivation to respond to mine... To say I am wrong and that I do not deserve a response to my question, because everyone is tired of defending themselves after dumping on the community for the benefit of some activists. -- Stephen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 22:47:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8D1F30BCF for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:47:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E74E71A92; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:47:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w25Mjqod071024 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:45:56 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w25MlHcP000106; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:47:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w25Mkx7l031572; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:47:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803052247.w25Mkx7l031572@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Bryan Drewery cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 05 Mar 2018 11:28:04 -0800." <55739682-e3d2-52fd-15a5-f89d16e2dcde@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:46:59 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:47:25 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Bryan Drewery > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 11:28:04 -0800 Bryan Drewery wrote: > This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) > --Dfb89j1723L9zFot341vqJ5ixcKpqkUga > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m"; > protected-headers="v1" > From: Bryan Drewery > To: "Julian H. Stacey" > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org > Message-ID: <55739682-e3d2-52fd-15a5-f89d16e2dcde@FreeBSD.org> > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem > References: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> > In-Reply-To: <201803051909.w25J9b8s029105@fire.js.berklix.net> > > --AWPme4oYHHsk3S0wyJ5qq8uBNKGZido2m > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Language: en-US > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On 3/5/2018 11:09 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Bryan Drewery wrote: > >> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) > >> --oex5zYNtdOsHH7CGnZTm2mPFhuBKYldVo > >> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyK= > kOJvV1"; > >> protected-headers=3D"v1" > >> From: Bryan Drewery > >> To: "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org > >> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > >> Message-ID: > >> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem > >> References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> > >> In-Reply-To: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> > >> > >> --YJ0tBWvLQToy5jfzJdV74lsXFyKkOJvV1 > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 > >> Content-Language: en-US > >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >> On 3/4/2018 5:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >>> deb@freebsdfoundation.org wrote: > >>>> Hi David, > >>>> > >>>> This is Deb Goodkin, Executive Director for the FreeBSD Foundation. = > Th=3D > >> e > >>>> Foundation isn't responsible for the CoC, that would be the FreeBSD > >>>> Project's core team. Please don't spread mis-information about the > >>>> Foundation censoring discussions. Someone else on this thread can ho= > pe=3D > >> fully > >>>> direct you to the correct mailing list for discussing your concerns > >>>> regarding the Code of Conduct.=3D20 > >>>> > >>>> Sincerely, > >>>> > >>>> Deb Goodkin > >>>> Executive Director > >>>> The FreeBSD Foundation > >>> =3D20 > >>> Hi Deb, > >>> Did the foundation pay for it ?=3D20 > >> > >> The discussion needs to not demonize people or entities involved on > >> either side. > >=20 > > FreeBSD are at liberty to reject a non FreeBSD outsider who wrote this > > especially if they were paid to write it, even more so if the paid > > outsider hopes rules she/he wrote they'd like to see imposed on us. > >=20 > >=20 > >> It seems to me that it would have been better had this CoC > >> had more outside review and possibly a draft period where the project > >> asked for community feedback. > >=20 > > ** A draft & period for comment should have been mandatory, > > omiting it suggests arrogance or incompetence. > >=20 > >=20 > >> IMHO it's not too late to go down those > >> paths but we need to take a deep breath and consider that the intentio= > ns > >> of the CoC are only good; > >=20 > > Maybe, or not, See ** above. > >=20 > >=20 > >> that the project should be more welcoming for > >> everyone. There's nothing wrong with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC,= > > >> even if it had flaws. > >=20 > > I think legaly Foundation is not answerable to FreeBSD just to the > > few who founded the foundation. Nothing wrong with FreeBSD rejecting > > an unwanted gift as incompetent waste of money - if they want. > >=20 > >=20 > >> It likely would need to help sponsor independent > >> reviews to weed out unneutral language. > >=20 > > Whoever sprung this on FreeBSD community without warning should be admo= > nished. > >=20 > > FreeBSD Foundation could ask for a refund from the incompetent who > > wrote it, & Foundation in turn could refund those such as the person > > who asked "Can I have a refund". > >=20 > > The language and tone you are using only diminishes your voice, and > frankly violates any average or common sense CoC. This was not done by > 1 person or "outsider", it was done by a group of people and signed off > by core@ (as I understand it). I think mistakes were made but attacking > everyone involved won't achieve any positive results. Read https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html It's a mess of some sense & some ridiculous, force fed to FreeBSD. Expect some not to like force feeding, or proponents thereof. Expect forceful opposition to force feeding. We're waiting for Deb to say if Foundation paid for CoC ? If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's. I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited for years destroys incentive to file more fixes. An example from 2014 (not mine, though I have or had some too, gets too boring to keep track for ever, years on end) ftp://ctm.berklix.org/pub/FreeBSD/development/CTM/svn-cur/patch-for-ctm-v09 16221 Nov 15 2014 I resubmitted it recently https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/ctm-users/2018-February/000519.html https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=159665 PS Bryan I suggest fix your mailer to not emit quoted printable =20 noise. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Tue Mar 6 01:20:33 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21B6F3C6E6 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 01:20:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CA3177C61; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 01:20:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id k135so11746104ite.2; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:20:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=Lgxpra27UOhiV989BF/vIAb1rNIlOqK0GkCE6i8Lq+0=; b=Qj1suj/Vv1Giw9zKDLG/J7/E2C6OvGWDpLch7Zy5v30nIkvrIkGRsq76J4QOgdT2P/ 7Qkz6ibACgZ1CPWm/aXUkDBfshSrkEoMtQ/2TbSnQR85i40I0VQizGCy8aw3NEa0uj0O SxacZKky8Rp6USEsqHAD+pwegEMtuiSg3ILQUQMqtqoGW0e5khUIEvsATK0Xc6h+03Xm EApUZ+o1+gR1fQN2zPo7IrSawurQckQS2VjEA84DGEoV6F2v+cK6GrlIBYBl/Dy67UcR fGzagBuFqxUD4bWTJp6DBrZxIeqLLVveodLQLMwGypWOK0OEXHPuBJKDJpzXaTE3GI7Q 3fTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Lgxpra27UOhiV989BF/vIAb1rNIlOqK0GkCE6i8Lq+0=; b=cWHtTXBy3d6grbkeEhfb5gw4U7W24AxRZI/F9BI5alWksdTHls6U/AVTe6GuX+Ctfi 3EJlnKhpxRW7rftK/aOcUP9C20bwQG9zNhtTkIAVOJA9L5m5EOxip3J6YBq3eX8aphJU nrYlUxlt0zCjKWWg6FbrXGAt7N7L0M27nGOB3iiABogGUn0Opd1uWmIDNopeDBbCEdK/ A+/vvUwV8PNryvsKCQlZVEhqyC8nQmtmzStvJQg3jgrdHoznIdHPtqJn89R9qrRhz+g6 fTC4NBGsmT9oiXA5i9Gr+zalM7lX2ytluHD9FIvnyepbZN33ci39gI2sMbBwJYI+sQMq v/xw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EQX3wwdMn/uPSw0fC0WGyUIWfxp8ISxR1V22Atz8Ot6oUZXr2X 2w3D/dP4hQE+CNYpzVLRgNaMTMl/gZK4hL7DofZM1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsyUbBSG1oS5mOKNpFpw1swl1PCyasuWrmvMbBx4T8KST2cB1Fh9kdVZZ42YZU6D03xSTAILBTioiyoUS2lupI= X-Received: by 10.36.225.10 with SMTP id n10mr15316442ith.99.1520299231906; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.79.213.217 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:20:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201803052247.w25Mkx7l031572@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <55739682-e3d2-52fd-15a5-f89d16e2dcde@FreeBSD.org> <201803052247.w25Mkx7l031572@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Randi Harper Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:20:11 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0vYJpaL6Ws7bhcniwYfHuHJz7OE Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Bryan Drewery , "FreeBSD, Advocacy" , Deb Goodkin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 01:20:33 -0000 On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Read https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > It's a mess of some sense & some ridiculous, force fed to FreeBSD. > Expect some not to like force feeding, or proponents thereof. > Expect forceful opposition to force feeding. > > We're waiting for Deb to say if Foundation paid for CoC ? > > If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC > & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's. > I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited > for years destroys incentive to file more fixes. > > > You know, a lot of things happen in FreeBSD that I don't give a flying fuck about. Research and code is done around hardware and tools that I'll never use, because they don't fit my needs - and that's ok. Generally speaking, despite everything, I generally trust that the FreeBSD Foundation and FreeBSD Core both have the project's health and growth as their top priority. That trust is important, because I'm just a person with my own singular set of experiences and priorities, and I can't know everything that's happening in FreeBSD all the time or make a good judgement call as to what's needed that fits outside of my own focus. I don't complain when donated money is used on tech that I'll never use. This isn't any different. If you think that managing your community should take less of a priority than managing code, then you might want to sit back and think for a bit about why the Foundation and Core would bother with this CoC. If you disagree with the priorities of the project or the foundation, you can always make it your goal to get into a position where you are the one making those decisions. Although I expect that with the amount of experience and time required, by the time this was achieved, you probably would have changed your mind about a few things. I also don't generally advise going to someone on the Foundation and demanding that they provide receipts, especially when CC:ing a mailing list. It's not a good look for you or anyone. Conversations about PRs are great to have. Yes, there's a lot of maintenance work that needs to be done. But tying that to complaining about a CoC is disingenuous at best. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Tue Mar 6 02:05:20 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73FF0F4179E for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06CEB7A5C1; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:05:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BCC5F130A; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:05:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:05:15 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Bryan Drewery , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> References: <55739682-e3d2-52fd-15a5-f89d16e2dcde@FreeBSD.org> <201803052247.w25Mkx7l031572@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201803052247.w25Mkx7l031572@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 02:05:20 -0000 On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:46:59PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited > for years destroys incentive to file more fixes. I do not know anyone who disagrees with this. The issue is how to get people involved with this utterly thankless task. And, even if the backlog were to suddenly disappear, we still get more PRs per day than we can effectively handle. One person is not going to be enough to fix this -- and I know, because in the past, I've tried being that one person. > If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC > & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's. There is a false equivalence here, that time spent on the CoC somehow took time away from working on PRs. I don't detect much overlap between the people that work on the one, vs. the other. mcl From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Tue Mar 6 02:13:55 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F60F42364 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:13:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B48F97AB83; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:13:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E803130A; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:13:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:13:52 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Stephen Cook Cc: Bryan Drewery , "Julian H. Stacey" , deb@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180306021352.GB4294@lonesome.com> References: <201803050114.w251Dv53087353@fire.js.berklix.net> <769a3928-0571-255a-3bb2-b6069c7dbf33@gmail.com> <20180305205130.GA3332@lonesome.com> <3aa00142-eed7-cc2a-4661-6d6289dc8f18@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3aa00142-eed7-cc2a-4661-6d6289dc8f18@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 02:13:55 -0000 On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 05:17:59PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote: > On 2018-03-05 15:51, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 02:48:26PM -0500, Stephen Cook wrote: > >> The problem with the Foundation sponsoring a CoC is that a small group > >> of extremists forced their way in to generate and implement their own > >> set of rules, secretly. > > > > This is exactly not what happened. > > Points of view will differ. >From the emails I have read, the core@ group convened an outreach committee to draft the CoC. No one "forced their way in". Clearly from all the blowback, there is no way to debate the wording of something like this in a group of thousands of people. There has to be a subset. That's just human nature. Otherwise, nothing ever gets done. > > An alternate explanation is that people are tired of going through every > > sentence of every post about this, word by word, and trying to respond > > in a way that cannot possibly be misconstrued. > > I haven't seen many posts about this, maybe you mean in the secret > mailing list? I don't read all the FreeBSD mailing lists (I was surprised to find myself on advocacy@), so I have no idea where all the discussions are taking place, including the original question you asked. fwiw, I do not represent the Project, and thus ... > There is nothing to misconstrue or dance around. I cannot find this > information on the site. ... I can say I have no idea. > Some transparency would help people better understand what is going on. > > > I myself have neither the time nor motivation to respond to every single > > message on this subject; it's demotivating. I suspect most of the posters > > have already made up their minds, in any case. > > But you had time and motivation to respond to mine... Yes, despite knowing that I was wasting the first, and eroding the second. > to say I am wrong and that I do not deserve a response to my question I didn't say you did not deserve a response to your question. This is what I meant earlier about having every word scrutinized. But I'm just wasting electrons, now. mcl From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Wed Mar 7 11:44:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF18F48C83 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 11:44:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9C896E922; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 11:44:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w27BhLHT058881 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Mar 2018 11:43:25 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w27Bijb5011672; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 12:44:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w27BiLeb086509; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 12:44:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Mark Linimon cc: Bryan Drewery , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 05 Mar 2018 20:05:15 -0600." <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 12:44:21 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 11:44:59 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:46:59PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommited > > for years destroys incentive to file more fixes. > > I do not know anyone who disagrees with this. > > The issue is how to get people involved with this utterly thankless task. > > And, even if the backlog were to suddenly disappear, we still get more > PRs per day than we can effectively handle. > > One person is not going to be enough to fix this -- and I know, because > in the past, I've tried being that one person. > > > If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC > > & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's. > > There is a false equivalence here, that time spent on the CoC somehow > took time away from working on PRs. I don't detect much overlap between > the people that work on the one, vs. the other. > > mcl Yes, little overlap in skill sets, just money. A non tech paid for the easy job of writing a CoC couldn't do send-pr clearance, though many a FreeBSD user could write a CoC unpaid, without the bad bits. Send-pr clearance is much larger, harder, unattractive compared to text or code creation. Commercial companies get unattractive jobs done using Money. FreeBSD Foundation won't have enough money for much send-pr (esp. if things like CoC are paid, increasing costs and reducing contributions). The Foundation could treat each send-pr cleared like a lottery ticket: each month some randomised bug clearers would get an unexpected bonus. Bonus winners advertised monthly on FreeBSD media, encouraging more bug clearance & more donations to fund it. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Wed Mar 7 14:09:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE1EF2FA5E for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:09:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh.goldstein@protonmail.com) Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B6A475CBB for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:09:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh.goldstein@protonmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 09:09:08 -0500 To: "deb@freebsdfoundation.org" , "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" From: Josh Goldstein Reply-To: Josh Goldstein Subject: FreeBSD Foundation CoC involvement Message-ID: <2qlIxkRi5z3KdCx9V9B4iM8LUWPRZX8N39oco_rqaxdrd3NXzlF_Qjyd05r1jIHwU9wjF0wXJYg1-cY8T5w1CMV3HHosVFObe4_kZDlRPIc=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: JkHFQQiXFyKW1GTkRvbD-dTQ_1l0rFg3tA4_0ile1TyCNGEIOZAmHP-I_RaterTiPniXUnJrLbM0O8wDvwZErQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_20, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 14:09:25 -0000 Deb, Several people have now asked and you have yet to respond, so I will raise the question again in a new thread in case you're ignoring the politics thread: Did The FreeBSD Foundation pay for works related to the Code of Conduct, and if so how much did it pay, and to whom for what services? I don't think this is an unreasonable question; several of us have donated money to the Foundation and would like to know how it is being spent. Personally I assumed development but that appears to not be the case and I need to reassess my commitment. Regards, Josh From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Wed Mar 7 14:39:46 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5184F32056 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:39:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F8FC77411 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:39:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 188so5156542wme.1 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 06:39:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=p6m7g8-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t4hNptN+U3zlROIgxvqeXvgBtsiCHqTy4+PfEgxXQAg=; b=RWMfphDbYq1L06G97W3NP9hmyQjQwF3T054g+JXinRI6GMI3iNLEnoBsYN+PaGlcq4 4QqZXUR3BQJiTa9ulElK/OE/lvGYkzH00IFlCxxTnfSbwj7u2LyyaiXnlIGjCeUR1aeb WLrBjr9B9Q6y+OsyAp30IH+iJTyfCE02dRrNR9Vmm7UjQUPyV4uC8KECUNS9AcIutcLi B6hURbkEmKCZPXC9ufwdxaYw/1aM93kwAngdzJM0OlWg4ESJKmtBnLVztZoKOi0gLIj7 EMBBFqKqf5cDaNrLP9OCxW8WcogI7W5rZw3bTZ/zs/YpGzsk1Pca/vIYyWW93j/Pey/h SVqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t4hNptN+U3zlROIgxvqeXvgBtsiCHqTy4+PfEgxXQAg=; b=MT5Qv+KzR4p66gWnIz8+ZZJh0OfNimzbOlPF1D7RBRCEQNEQC7wnKn6LhzJGfS9GBg 7A1RRWR1cyLeJ/KICAp0Qlxc8Vm46SlhSwenTQQ2SdUZ4zMs+Rbq+oAmwAynphodUt7t Tcj4DriKPw0t/tsqR1XwoYO/OR2IUdr4qKc16ViY76OcWdmDWzYTVxNsiE6ucvpx2LGu 2MInHvtF5D2tDZQ+TPchjDAaANoaZb+PPGVLh7KYgXc6ob8FDleRktDtwTDC/5B7P85q 9gOxvAJBrRnRDzgWq/s/lnFJHEdTTWxJ+3GZpvJWiIt9b4V0S/0T0tebXnVm0sAq4l6n Zh9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F8bEG+X166EnKkPaWPaMb9H2Tkz+uabA09qYLSq4Kx1Dx1Neaa FFKEH+U5JddmdR3PYqO6Cf5C70CTtH9c6dwi4tVBaA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsMdzjo0yv2lJ7eHRDzHHOtYXr/BpIkzh5Yvg0dCD6fVpZhNwcrCZ21t36zrdGt+E8CoA0jsJhVEMd9CRUCB4I= X-Received: by 10.80.172.130 with SMTP id x2mr23765597edc.294.1520433584962; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 06:39:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.178.197 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 06:39:04 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [108.48.199.86] In-Reply-To: <2qlIxkRi5z3KdCx9V9B4iM8LUWPRZX8N39oco_rqaxdrd3NXzlF_Qjyd05r1jIHwU9wjF0wXJYg1-cY8T5w1CMV3HHosVFObe4_kZDlRPIc=@protonmail.com> References: <2qlIxkRi5z3KdCx9V9B4iM8LUWPRZX8N39oco_rqaxdrd3NXzlF_Qjyd05r1jIHwU9wjF0wXJYg1-cY8T5w1CMV3HHosVFObe4_kZDlRPIc=@protonmail.com> From: "Philip M. Gollucci" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 09:39:04 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Foundation CoC involvement To: Josh Goldstein Cc: "deb@freebsdfoundation.org" , "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 14:39:47 -0000 I'm perplexed, speaking as a previous officer of the ASF - Nearly everything we spent money on was public. I know the staff and infra budgets are. I wrote them for two years. At the moment I have no opinion on if this was good or bad to spend on; however as a 501c(3) vs 501c(6) you have limits on what can be asked for untargeted donations. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 AM, Josh Goldstein via freebsd-advocacy < freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> wrote: > Deb, > > Several people have now asked and you have yet to respond, so I will > raise the question again in a new thread in case you're ignoring the > politics thread: > > Did The FreeBSD Foundation pay for works related to the Code of Conduct, > and if so how much did it pay, and to whom for what services? > > I don't think this is an unreasonable question; several of us have > donated money to the Foundation and would like to know how it is being > spent. Personally I assumed development but that appears to not be the > case and I need to reassess my commitment. > > Regards, > > Josh > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4096R/D21D2752 ECDF B597 B54B 7F92 753E E0EA F699 A450 D21D 2752 Philip M. Gollucci (pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) c: 703.336.9354 Member, Apache Software Foundation Committer, FreeBSD Foundation Consultant, P6M7G8 Inc. Director Cloud Technology, Capital One What doesn't kill us can only make us stronger; Except it almost kills you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Wed Mar 7 16:11:37 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CF8F3B418 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:11:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsdfoundation.org) Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A21A47D2FA for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:11:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsdfoundation.org) Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id l187so4006775ith.4 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 08:11:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsdfoundation.org; s=gfnp-20170908; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-language:thread-index; bh=slv0dtQ257j0cKfI7ubWc9jNwwh0xgxwJO27D2O2wbM=; b=hILmx80x3wqQxrLQouwsbx3o4t4g7u6rf0+6lkMWsLowUyouTGBI9U6+IbGJuSMRlQ 0rxLdPp/YGZQk92OQZV2alz4h9CjDLC0lRoS9rNMpPQx2G1qs4Lz0go650Vlk9Yvxa7e 8XI+ebYhy+FLuZFt3AgRrq/bwE2I1SnItvmk+8VBkl7mqAE/wFzCLFS7b7KTAvyoY4o7 pabUGc25xbu3UVkawRLBkLQcHAesLSQdLoHCi8OR86D4ECT2ZgZlscdJxbgBMG7LKwfc XL3FmlpuLpdbJJYzUT0BIUmUj98JaStWaioyDhPTaRDnaAAhXLKYfh1NnAPvng3xNkXg nDog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-language:thread-index; bh=slv0dtQ257j0cKfI7ubWc9jNwwh0xgxwJO27D2O2wbM=; b=OznRvls2Pgnpd8v3uZYQQpN0Xbw3z6LPjeWJPTaMNntS1CIdP+MO1xNl+slVlqrl2/ wVJ2C+bcl+aBTKNM0swe3oQzmfZOr7osvGEuxRvWfFoAf1NzszuZgk2jy4u326VUej7r CbzYK9zaTTVN3eZo7VGxM6WkapbGJhGLxfzIYMdBxSM2QO911QJVEV5NH87cjwrTVG2W TWmGYHW/IT+MrHk/BZQJ+lDia0IwOYbs5fbFrNhbtbQ00k15ItjWQiY4qNZpCOnAG0F4 Q20vlpYSV2hD2gE08WvgmZxEdac526NOpMZkO2EWad8E+fbpWEvGcGQN7cipztBeu5/R SkHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HMfSixgf2SzKR23nUT2HWZxj48yeAKtbH6f3JKOmVVrpwVbMqw T7ly2oTNjxdBVdMri5PON0GG8GMQ3hbMuRGI2WwG/TryjuAGo2g5aMHxTquuraOoOIE2LUW2pI3 n5y+TO7BuzTonUDbtRUKwo/64/duNsz60PvLF0QW7Y7v9sGoUzm4ud4hN9lTclp807u2YrSU879 E0qFjb X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtm/tC6Yq3nvKKpKqo4SXQyHkYJCVbXvm813mIRH5h+ebCQuBmzrCzGoNjefbPPJh+HLapppw== X-Received: by 10.36.181.81 with SMTP id j17mr23494108iti.22.1520439095711; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 08:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from DebsPC (c-71-237-89-24.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [71.237.89.24]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r75sm1457901itb.25.2018.03.07.08.11.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Mar 2018 08:11:34 -0800 (PST) From: To: "'Philip M. Gollucci'" , "'Josh Goldstein'" Cc: References: <2qlIxkRi5z3KdCx9V9B4iM8LUWPRZX8N39oco_rqaxdrd3NXzlF_Qjyd05r1jIHwU9wjF0wXJYg1-cY8T5w1CMV3HHosVFObe4_kZDlRPIc=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: FreeBSD Foundation CoC involvement Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 09:11:34 -0700 Message-ID: <0b1c01d3b62e$f6eb4140$e4c1c3c0$@freebsdfoundation.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQKCID0Fl90T2yGwnBNyYViQCKbXvQL7EnF3olBEIrA= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 16:11:37 -0000 Hello Philip and Josh, Sorry, for the delay in my response, and thank you for inquiring how we = are spending our money. I need to keep this reply short, as I=E2=80=99m = on my way to the airport to attend SCALE to promote FreeBSD and recruit = more users and contributors to the Project. I will write up a more = formal statement after I arrive in California. This week has been = tough, with two major conferences happening this week. To answer Julien=E2=80=99s original question, no, the Foundation did not = pay for the CoC. However,, as we=E2=80=99ve been publicizing in our = monthly newsletters in 2016 and the FreeBSD quarterly status reports, we = did support the new Code of Conduct efforts by paying for a few hours of = time for an outside consultant to provide guidance and advice to the = CoC review committee made up of volunteers from within and outside the = FreeBSD community. The funding comes out of our general funds, like = other support we provide to the Project. The consultant did not write = the CoC, only provided advice. =20 To address Philip=E2=80=99s concern, we have always been public with our = spending. Please check out our financial reports here: = https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about/financials/ When you look at our P&L, you can see that we do not break out every = expense. For example, you won=E2=80=99t see how much we spent on = individual events, like the Bay Area Vendor Summit, or how much we paid = to sponsor AsiaBSDCon or BSDCon. Most of that is lumped into Project = Spending expense accounts. Paying for a consultant to provide guidance = into making sure the FreeBSD Project is inclusive, welcoming, and safe, = is part of our charter of supporting the FreeBSD Project and community. = I=E2=80=99ll also include here, that it was important to have that = expertise on putting together the reporting process. I understand that = there are people on this mailing list that are concerned about how we = are spending their donations, and I believe there is a misunderstanding = of how much we actually spent on this. To be clear, it was less than .1% = of our budget. Over 60% off our budget goes directly to software = development, with most of the rest going to release engineering and = security team support, FreeBSD infrastructure, and FreeBSD advocacy and = education. In fact, here is a list of the areas we supported in 2017, = copied from my December blog post: In 2017, your support helped us advance the Project through:=20 * Increasing the software development projects we are managing and = funding, by internal and external software developers, including the = OpenZFS RAID-Z Expansion project, Broadcom Wi-Fi infrastructural = improvements (bhnd(4) driver), increasing Intel server support, and = extensive progress towards a fully copyfree toolchain. * Growing the number of FreeBSD contributors and users from our global = FreeBSD outreach and advocacy efforts, including expanding into new = regions like China, India, Africa, and Singapore. * Keeping FreeBSD secure and reliable by having staff members fill = leadership roles on the Security and Release Engineering teams. * Starting up nascent internship/stipend programs by participating in = the University of Waterloo Co-op program, where we are hiring interns = for four-month periods to work directly on FreeBSD, and the University = Politehnica Bucharest, where we are providing stipends to students doing = research projects with FreeBSD. * Providing face-to-face opportunities such as developer and vendor = summits and company visits to help facilitate collaboration between = commercial users and FreeBSD developers,as well as helping to get = changes pushed into the FreeBSD source tree, and creating a bigger and = healthier ecosystem. * Utilizing a full-time staff member to ensure stability, reliability = and high performance via ongoing maintenance and bug fixes. =20 Most of you probably noticed that there is no mention of supporting the = FreeBSD CoC. That=E2=80=99s because this work was done in 2016. As I = mentioned earlier, the bulk of our funding goes directly to supporting = the Project, and that includes the salaries of our limited staff. We = also spend funding on a Human Resources consultant periodicity, an = accountant, an office, computers, and other administrative areas that = support our efforts. As someone who has traveled around the world, meeting FreeBSD = contributors who are new to the Project, and also many who have been = with it for a long time, I=E2=80=99m always impressed with the passion = and love for FreeBSD. I=E2=80=99m here to support our constituents, and = listen to what you want us to support. We are not a trade association = like some of the other open source foundations out there. Our sole = purpose is to support the FreeBSD Project and community. Though, we = don=E2=80=99t have enough funding to do the work we are currently doing, = we will step in the fill needs of the Project. Along with my staff, we are committed to supporting this Project. I = stand by the support we provided to the community to craft a better = Project CoC. As most people know, I will respond over email. If you = have specific concerns about the CoC, I=E2=80=99m open to listening. = But, please be specific on what concerns you. However, since I was not = part of the CoC effort, it would be best to send your concerns directly = to the core team, who is working on a process for committers to provide = their feedback on the current CoC. =20 Sincerely, =20 Deb Goodkin Executive Director The FreeBSD Foundation =20 =20 From: Philip M. Gollucci =20 Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 07:39 To: Josh Goldstein Cc: deb@freebsdfoundation.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Foundation CoC involvement =20 I'm perplexed, speaking as a previous officer of the ASF - Nearly = everything we spent money on was public. I know the staff and infra = budgets are. I wrote them for two years. =20 At the moment I have no opinion on if this was good or bad to spend on; = however as a 501c(3) vs 501c(6) you have limits on what can be asked for = untargeted donations. =20 On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 AM, Josh Goldstein via freebsd-advocacy = > = wrote: Deb, Several people have now asked and you have yet to respond, so I will raise the question again in a new thread in case you're ignoring the politics thread: Did The FreeBSD Foundation pay for works related to the Code of Conduct, and if so how much did it pay, and to whom for what services? I don't think this is an unreasonable question; several of us have donated money to the Foundation and would like to know how it is being spent. Personally I assumed development but that appears to not be the case and I need to reassess my commitment. Regards, Josh _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org = mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org = " =20 --=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- 4096R/ = = D21D2752 ECDF B597 B54B 7F92 753E E0EA F699 A450 D21D 2752 Philip M. Gollucci ( pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) = c: 703.336.9354 Member, Apache Software Foundation Committer, FreeBSD Foundation Consultant, P6M7G8 Inc. Director Cloud Technology, Capital One What doesn't kill us can only make us stronger; Except it almost kills you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Wed Mar 7 17:14:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60700F41724 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8D7681CB1 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:14:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id w128so6273781wmw.0 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 09:14:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=p6m7g8-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H5ByxtzjrNxz4V4NYITEQsUdkon3SAa4VQUdSNGzgFs=; b=YYwtuB5dTp/IJWsTFUegrDOuXGZbj8YVjxRZuti5D6tValIDWajDZQHy367+6lXy3N HAD85+6sTT1vKxSyKGvnzk1O4LZaPr2p/qjTlOafquWLla0uOG3Wxn9gaAYXIcZ+nXlt mpTt0yc5OQWX7IsTcFD5f6Zr1G2hrF7fwpV5IRF7inj3OviJ1r7f5nqse6Frejvk2yfJ lrrW4rOZqcBD+wOpR01/eb5/WfT2EFCyBCeUgJnINgvaqctkz/90bbfuazk1cIuFfbWI QzO87diDsXj2ixc7UjfyMZHs2IYRielr4R+LK3NT1moZkJ4Vy7JwULpBagdJS8jao/mL MJgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H5ByxtzjrNxz4V4NYITEQsUdkon3SAa4VQUdSNGzgFs=; b=tJ6w9mCB0dBO96beQ6mL5NBokCm0RjmXEhynDusy+iJDbDASwcgtx4WSUDyOXSnI0f pMOQBgAkZec3+NbAA1D4RyuvnKIASVwFFRPgbBvmIMC2eJXGXmrLksoGg6EUE9437Bhp 4qOOIzuCPHJ6wpDQ8uiBzIex8xHeMAftxwE3YLrOlOwd7/+Omsuxng/BTd4Gwyx6DHIQ OhZSC7rGO7ZhYyU+QNg3G2GzXV2oTdl+EX14G+wiQwSxxIbhOvQevXecIV5I1wtvjpnc ojisL0tdJnNugAHuxD3IbAVz1SNVBMcNXdHrIGQ0yT7+kVwR77RbxPRJi5nx2Djfanlv rG4A== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPC26AyyirszUK/5ZgxslSKHkPYHuMCo5LR4uR7fmo9gjQ2rwk3v I1oo07YPFy78AGSUT4umkBY8Wli1dPYUd61bnPmUpQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvg+2XfCZPL88BUj/nW7W5s4r8ggJZ1x/dN+s+gT2b0xCWqtztq+0+zjaKWBORxrCb01m21/Cn/+/o+cmRKqb8= X-Received: by 10.80.181.228 with SMTP id a91mr27987848ede.138.1520442895663; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 09:14:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2qlIxkRi5z3KdCx9V9B4iM8LUWPRZX8N39oco_rqaxdrd3NXzlF_Qjyd05r1jIHwU9wjF0wXJYg1-cY8T5w1CMV3HHosVFObe4_kZDlRPIc=@protonmail.com> <0b1c01d3b62e$f6eb4140$e4c1c3c0$@freebsdfoundation.org> In-Reply-To: <0b1c01d3b62e$f6eb4140$e4c1c3c0$@freebsdfoundation.org> From: "Philip M. Gollucci" Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 17:14:44 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Foundation CoC involvement To: deb@freebsdfoundation.org Cc: Josh Goldstein , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 17:14:57 -0000 Short? I will digest this. A well written response deb. Thank you. Yeah we didn=E2=80=99t really denote things under 1% much less 0.1%. I was looking for the financials link. My bad I couldn=E2=80=99t find that= . Personally I don=E2=80=99t have a problem with how fbsd or the foundation i= s spending money or not. I do find the community politics quite intriguing though..... On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:11 AM wrote: > Hello Philip and Josh, > > Sorry, for the delay in my response, and thank you for inquiring how we > are spending our money. I need to keep this reply short, as I=E2=80=99m o= n my way > to the airport to attend SCALE to promote FreeBSD and recruit more users > and contributors to the Project. I will write up a more formal statement > after I arrive in California. This week has been tough, with two major > conferences happening this week. > > To answer Julien=E2=80=99s original question, no, the Foundation did not = pay for > the CoC. However,, as we=E2=80=99ve been publicizing in our monthly newsl= etters in > 2016 and the FreeBSD quarterly status reports, we did support the new Cod= e > of Conduct efforts by paying for a few hours of time for an outside > consultant to provide guidance and advice to the CoC review committee ma= de > up of volunteers from within and outside the FreeBSD community. The fundi= ng > comes out of our general funds, like other support we provide to the > Project. The consultant did not write the CoC, only provided advice. > > > > To address Philip=E2=80=99s concern, we have always been public with our = spending. > Please check out our financial reports here: > > https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about/financials/ > > When you look at our P&L, you can see that we do not break out every > expense. For example, you won=E2=80=99t see how much we spent on individu= al events, > like the Bay Area Vendor Summit, or how much we paid to sponsor AsiaBSDCo= n > or BSDCon. Most of that is lumped into Project Spending expense accounts. > Paying for a consultant to provide guidance into making sure the FreeBSD > Project is inclusive, welcoming, and safe, is part of our charter of > supporting the FreeBSD Project and community. I=E2=80=99ll also include h= ere, that > it was important to have that expertise on putting together the reporting > process. I understand that there are people on this mailing list that are > concerned about how we are spending their donations, and I believe there = is > a misunderstanding of how much we actually spent on this. To be clear, it > was less than .1% of our budget. Over 60% off our budget goes directly to > software development, with most of the rest going to release engineering > and security team support, FreeBSD infrastructure, and FreeBSD advocacy a= nd > education. In fact, here is a list of the areas we supported in 2017, > copied from my December blog post: > > In 2017, your support helped us advance the Project through: > > - Increasing the software development projects we are managing and > funding, by internal and external software developers, including the > OpenZFS RAID-Z Expansion project, Broadcom Wi-Fi infrastructural > improvements (bhnd(4) driver), increasing Intel server support, and > extensive progress towards a fully copyfree toolchain. > - Growing the number of FreeBSD contributors and users from our global > FreeBSD outreach and advocacy efforts, including expanding into new re= gions > like China, India, Africa, and Singapore. > - Keeping FreeBSD secure and reliable by having staff members fill > leadership roles on the Security and Release Engineering teams. > - Starting up nascent internship/stipend programs by participating in > the University of Waterloo Co-op program, where we are hiring interns = for > four-month periods to work directly on FreeBSD, and the University > Politehnica Bucharest, where we are providing stipends to students doi= ng > research projects with FreeBSD. > - Providing face-to-face opportunities such as developer and vendor > summits and company visits to help facilitate collaboration between > commercial users and FreeBSD developers,as well as helping to get chan= ges > pushed into the FreeBSD source tree, and creating a bigger and healthi= er > ecosystem. > - Utilizing a full-time staff member to ensure stability, reliability > and high performance via ongoing maintenance and bug fixes. > > > > Most of you probably noticed that there is no mention of supporting the > FreeBSD CoC. That=E2=80=99s because this work was done in 2016. As I ment= ioned > earlier, the bulk of our funding goes directly to supporting the Project, > and that includes the salaries of our limited staff. We also spend fundin= g > on a Human Resources consultant periodicity, an accountant, an office, > computers, and other administrative areas that support our efforts. > > As someone who has traveled around the world, meeting FreeBSD contributor= s > who are new to the Project, and also many who have been with it for a lon= g > time, I=E2=80=99m always impressed with the passion and love for FreeBSD.= I=E2=80=99m here > to support our constituents, and listen to what you want us to support. W= e > are not a trade association like some of the other open source foundation= s > out there. Our sole purpose is to support the FreeBSD Project and > community. Though, we don=E2=80=99t have enough funding to do the work we= are > currently doing, we will step in the fill needs of the Project. > > Along with my staff, we are committed to supporting this Project. I stand > by the support we provided to the community to craft a better Project CoC= . > As most people know, I will respond over email. If you have specific > concerns about the CoC, I=E2=80=99m open to listening. But, please be spe= cific on > what concerns you. However, since I was not part of the CoC effort, it > would be best to send your concerns directly to the core team, who is > working on a process for committers to provide their feedback on the > current CoC. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Deb Goodkin > > Executive Director > > The FreeBSD Foundation > > > > > > *From:* Philip M. Gollucci > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 7, 2018 07:39 > *To:* Josh Goldstein > *Cc:* deb@freebsdfoundation.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > *Subject:* Re: FreeBSD Foundation CoC involvement > > > > I'm perplexed, speaking as a previous officer of the ASF - Nearly > everything we spent money on was public. I know the staff and infra > budgets are. I wrote them for two years. > > > > At the moment I have no opinion on if this was good or bad to spend on; > however as a 501c(3) vs 501c(6) you have limits on what can be asked for > untargeted donations. > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 AM, Josh Goldstein via freebsd-advocacy < > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> wrote: > > Deb, > > Several people have now asked and you have yet to respond, so I will > raise the question again in a new thread in case you're ignoring the > politics thread: > > Did The FreeBSD Foundation pay for works related to the Code of Conduct, > and if so how much did it pay, and to whom for what services? > > I don't think this is an unreasonable question; several of us have > donated money to the Foundation and would like to know how it is being > spent. Personally I assumed development but that appears to not be the > case and I need to reassess my commitment. > > Regards, > > Josh > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g > " > > > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- > 4096R/D21D2752 > ECDF > B597 B54B 7F92 753E E0EA F699 A450 D21D 2752 > > Philip M. Gollucci (pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) c: 703.336.9354 > > Member, Apache Software Foundation > Committer, FreeBSD Foundation > Consultant, P6M7G8 Inc. > Director Cloud Technology, Capital One > > What doesn't kill us can only make us stronger; > > Except it almost kills you. > --=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ 4096R/D21D2752 ECDF B= 597 B54B 7F92 753E E0EA F699 A450 D21D 2752 Philip M. Gollucci (pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) c: 703.336.9354 Member, Apache Software Foundation Committer, FreeBSD Foundation Consultant, P6M7G8 Inc. Director Cloud Technology, Capital One What doesn't kill us can only make us stronger; Except it almost kills you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Wed Mar 7 20:48:08 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89826F2F2E1 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 20:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jzottl@radiantnetworks.net) Received: from mail-it0-x235.google.com (mail-it0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 289506D794 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 20:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jzottl@radiantnetworks.net) Received: by mail-it0-x235.google.com with SMTP id n128so17390634ith.1 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 12:48:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=radiantnetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=t1PnTsON0klRkHbRg8rQn57hiPSXZbvntEJjSdkgRBg=; b=FxG7GqV/IScpPU+8M1YHWgq6jOMtS5Sa0fiLrDrT9Hb8DUkLxbW2qLvo+GKaE90aBg acxUcJuQtGl9pkNBMeygZzJebBw9lz+XdDi1BF2PXAfD79L+e2VCL9YTGjzZsfLZf9T/ V4/33W4rKkxjRB7Q2S70dSeqx7wKM/EwiAvMvNEWPzoyzXeQMjrO+2jigXeyeZ+VPbeK fHcMpWrGVxJnXQHRpxWL+1By7KmNsVCgX/senrCnsO8FHnp7DQVGkmgWKKAF5l874dXD Ahu1TXtdbNdMpj1HUrgK7bM19nJpc130WJoyzZdXIcXkTtR3HStO3dLSrumRcRcZFoT+ WakA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=t1PnTsON0klRkHbRg8rQn57hiPSXZbvntEJjSdkgRBg=; b=k0+8OksYKeYjRxirKUwl04f87DICKG82/3ejSdPSsT2hC5QBEgqqfTW6ryivGyW5Ec IYDy97mXNQl5S84iRnreSMZH6R6sLYrYnDgUrug9cma7g9LJEp1dkpKBse/dMktdM/V+ GFMWBEy19m4SlBP2nF9ahl/vT1AV6nXKxsUwp4WLQJgkGLZNm61LR1KT0mRjcoX0uWWQ 8dkQt577qn7KgfaelYOJwD/Xu14wc0aO4ALL4MuHqzw6x7XpcRGnRElKXM0fs1Musxjh tGNfMYc9N5Sn7bDYYNj/+nxPTP+8a+wTY/2YEeElLYA6szIs8UBS0OHl2EkASdCAVdiG EpJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7H3SWRt8/RpXqyNH9151E/zhavbaA9L8BMZG4FLDRrtLu86FiAm 5SHZi+e48kdq9EyQgdG6aXVz4TWevdCuena0bdhn9isI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELu+PObbRS1l25exOt763TteCZ37lk1mYd+Ik1uZoNnXp+UvMTdXCIyCHFwhWLvtPOx5bLhmVRoUHurfnGd2Rv8= X-Received: by 10.36.142.69 with SMTP id h66mr24472655ite.90.1520455687193; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 12:48:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.152.118 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 12:48:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Julian Zottl Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:48:06 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 20:48:08 -0000 So I'll ask a stupid question: Why not base it off of the millions of CoC's already out there? https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html is a good start. Yes, it's a commercial company, but it could easily be modified. The CoC as it stands is ridiculous. Here is my contribution to helping. Don't call out inclusion, it should naturally happen with an open CoC. I like the KISS method of working. We want the FreeBSD Project to be a venue where people can work together to make the best operating system, built by a strong community. These values extend beyond just development to all aspects of the Project. This code applies equally to everyone representing the FreeBSD Project in any way, from new members, to committers, to the core team itself. These rules are intended to ensure everyone feels welcome both working within, and interacting with, the Project. This document is a guide to make it easier to enrich all of us and the technical communities in which we participate. This code of conduct applies to all spaces used by the FreeBSD Project, including our mailing lists, IRC channels, and social media, both online and off. Anyone who is found to violate this code of conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from FreeBSD Project controlled spaces at the discretion of the FreeBSD Code of Conduct Committee. Some FreeBSD Project spaces may have additional rules in place, which will be made clearly available to participants. Participants are responsible for knowing and abiding by these rules. *Rules:* *Do no Evil* - Follow the law, acting honorably, and treating co-workers with courtesy and respect. Recognize that everything we do in connection with FreeBSD will be, and should be, measured against the highest possible standards of ethical conduct. *No Retaliation* - FreeBSD prohibits retaliation against any person who reports or participates in an investigation of a possible violation of our Code, policies, or the law. If you believe you are being retaliated against, please contact Ethics & Compliance. *Serve Our Users* - Our users value FreeBSD not only because we deliver a great Operating System, but because we hold ourselves to a higher standard in how we treat users and operate more generally. Keeping the following principles in mind will help us to maintain that high standard: =C2=B7 *Integrity* - Our reputation as a community that our users can tru= st is our most valuable asset, and it is up to all of us to make sure that we continually earn that trust. All of our communications and other interactions with our users should increase their trust in us. =C2=B7 *Usefulness* - Our Operating System should be useful for all our u= sers. We have many different types of users, from individuals to large businesses, but one guiding principle: =E2=80=9CIs what we are offering use= ful?=E2=80=9D =C2=B7 *Freedom of Expression* - FreeBSD is committed to advancing privac= y and freedom of expression for our users around the world. Where user privacy and freedom of expression face government challenges, we seek to implement internationally recognized standards that respect those rights as we develop products, do business in diverse markets, and respond to government requests to access user information or remove user content. Contact Legal or Ethics & Compliance if you have questions on implementing these standards in connection with what you do with FreeBSD. =C2=B7 *Responsiveness* - Part of being useful and honest is being respon= sive: We recognize relevant user feedback when we see it, and we do something about it. We take pride in responding to communications from our users, whether questions, problems, or compliments. If something is broken, fix it= . =C2=B7 *Take Action* - Any time you feel our users aren=E2=80=99t being w= ell-served, don=E2=80=99t be bashful - let someone in the community know about it. Cont= inually improving our product takes all of us, and we=E2=80=99re proud that FreeBSD champions our users and take the initiative to step forward when the interests of our users are at stake. *Equal Opportunity Community* Bring a contributor to the FreeBSD community is based solely upon individual merit and qualifications directly related to competence. We strictly prohibit unlawful discrimination or harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, veteran status, national origin, ancestry, pregnancy status, sex, gender identity or expression, age, marital status, mental or physical disability, medical condition, sexual orientation, or any other characteristics protected by law. We also make all reasonable accommodations to meet our obligations under laws protecting the rights of the disabled. *Harassment, Discrimination, and Bullying* FreeBSD prohibits discrimination, harassment and bullying in any form =E2= =80=93 verbal, physical, or visual If you believe you=E2=80=99ve been bullied or h= arassed by anyone at FreeBSD, or in the community, we strongly encourage you to immediately report the incident contact to the FreeBSD Ethics & Compliance group. *Conclusion* FreeBSD aspires to be a different kind of community. It=E2=80=99s impossibl= e to spell out every possible ethical scenario we might face. Instead, we rely on one another=E2=80=99s good judgment to uphold a high standard of integri= ty for ourselves and our company. We expect all FreeBSD=E2=80=99ers to be guided b= y both the letter and the spirit of this Code. Sometimes, identifying the right thing to do isn=E2=80=99t an easy call. If you aren=E2=80=99t sure, don=E2= =80=99t be afraid to ask questions of the FreeBSD Ethics & Compliance group. And remember=E2=80=A6 don=E2=80=99t be evil, and if you see something that = you think isn=E2=80=99t right =E2=80=93 speak up! Not really that hard, eh? ---- Julian On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 6:44 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:46:59PM +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > I agree with the other person's thoughts that FreeBSD fixes uncommite= d > > > for years destroys incentive to file more fixes. > > > > I do not know anyone who disagrees with this. > > > > The issue is how to get people involved with this utterly thankless tas= k. > > > > And, even if the backlog were to suddenly disappear, we still get more > > PRs per day than we can effectively handle. > > > > One person is not going to be enough to fix this -- and I know, because > > in the past, I've tried being that one person. > > > > > If so, it would be nice if FreeBSD Foundation got a refund for CoC > > > & spent it on a a student janitor to clear up years old send-pr's. > > > > There is a false equivalence here, that time spent on the CoC somehow > > took time away from working on PRs. I don't detect much overlap betwee= n > > the people that work on the one, vs. the other. > > > > mcl > > Yes, little overlap in skill sets, just money. A non tech paid for > the easy job of writing a CoC couldn't do send-pr clearance, though > many a FreeBSD user could write a CoC unpaid, without the bad bits. > > Send-pr clearance is much larger, harder, unattractive compared to text o= r > code creation. Commercial companies get unattractive jobs done using > Money. > FreeBSD Foundation won't have enough money for much send-pr (esp. if > things > like CoC are paid, increasing costs and reducing contributions). > > The Foundation could treat each send-pr cleared like a lottery ticket: > each month some randomised bug clearers would get an unexpected bonus. > Bonus winners advertised monthly on FreeBSD media, encouraging more bug > clearance & more donations to fund it. > > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, > Munich > Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU= . > UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. > Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g > " > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 02:31:24 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E336F4B0A7; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt0-x230.google.com (mail-qt0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC8917E142; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:31:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt0-x230.google.com with SMTP id j4so5142588qth.8; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=2z2MxKTg+YDWi7SQJMIuTWKQFPJyNo5LdPU/ZSfw5oE=; b=kLiFiUkSFi4VZNCdsUsD6yU8Gw8ZMWbk80F8T0BsIWDu+OZe0RAMJtP9l3WfbIJdWr m2dz7EJQzDlTOT8CHg2d5xSTYHjsk3mzLj00bzxfS0NPKvnDVn5CiR0XPNbmQaz0djM2 8tLGZ1eEEJ6zbeclfFxfEXG8NoesAV0xW6hfGXYqmA4NGeoO8WG6ByKTwdIzCJ9nXrxb oH2L4uQ6qbeTW/O8QJrWibvuj/0PMNABp/Y0Kl/I7Ly1tnzuwMVVwYLnKqhCVP3j/6QO gPRxOysKI3UMjtWaTw1W8HiNhaMec5nKXSbEcNc+p+U20uR5GMp6yeyAT+63Fc6jNr10 aa7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=2z2MxKTg+YDWi7SQJMIuTWKQFPJyNo5LdPU/ZSfw5oE=; b=OfZnp8Y9z/ofUhvKw1md067lP1HOt20Bnz1o3kpwmfRqqaf3/0F9Tjb1mcWfF6m+Jy Qp5EC0TPOzCK1M6sTRiIFGXc3nllLcnnaMt7RergNgpO4htEUNPlNdeOqWG4IsbIVfU9 dWpu3YmlATPtR3PfOLlDlEecAaFUNcas5Xgu6jpI2mPoFmgQI2cv0SiToy3tS4bgtrZc t0Z/7gXgsXzTkS2CZ6xol8pNJ8S3KFLcg8LwDEbSI4V5y9XdZhTl2gPvIQriHy/rydW2 hivnGDxdnP+nH9UOai31Eh/MjCMUqwg+ZvUirAsQFTiATK+0l6xZ5kTGzClB6xJ7+pdz QhkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FiSA2eo+YRDpJRewTqWycU8/pQl3bnVJ8B/LpuXPLLLly1bjlL WOZmhmbOiy7BsZProOPpVHfYqg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtGvlm4qVI8mTbeIhsgtTvwvQ4627Uu3Hu8dzJtrAU+ZlH7yCv16nYCKsKipMreOgfrxxxj8g== X-Received: by 10.237.32.135 with SMTP id 7mr37243320qtb.287.1520476283261; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dunkelheit ([23.226.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m3sm11795203qtg.57.2018.03.07.18.31.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:31:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 21:31:13 -0500 From: Geheimnisse To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 02:31:24 -0000 I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about the new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedoras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harrass others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is you were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a handful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it won't affect anything. Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to stalk and harrass people. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 04:30:39 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A2EF3001A for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 04:30:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07CBD83A30; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 04:30:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 23:30:23 -0500 To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org" , "developers@freebsd.org" From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Issues and proposed improvements to the FreeBSD CoC Message-ID: Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 04:30:39 -0000 Hello, I am a long-time FreeBSD user who has observed much of the controversy arou= nd the recently released CoC, and I would like to comment on it. While I do= n=E2=80=99t oppose the concept of a CoC, I think the current revision has s= ignificant issues that I think should be addressed and will outline here:= =20 1. It unnecessarily wades into contentious political territory, for example= by using language characteristic of particular ideological factions that c= ould be interpreted as endorsement of or indirect affiliation with those fa= ctions. FreeBSD is a technical project, and it should endeavor to avoid pol= itical entanglements that are far outside of its mission of developing an o= pen source operating system. Such entanglements are a distraction and also = exclusionary. As an example of why this is a problem, the CoC committee could have releas= ed a semantically similar document that used Christian terms and language t= o communicate the same messages as the new CoC, and it=E2=80=99s obvious th= at would have been unwise, controversial, and that non-Christians might tak= e issue. It=E2=80=99s the same with this document. The CoC should be rewrit= ten in the blandest, most uncontroversial language possible that communicat= es the indented meaning. Using different language would also have the benefit of making the document= easier for nonnative English speakers to understand, and spare them the ta= sk of familiarizing themselves with the neologisms and jargon of a North Am= erican political ideology. 2. The document text appears to have been presented as a fiat accompli to t= he project. No drafts appear to have been widely circulated for feedback pr= ior to release. For something as core to a community as how it should condu= ct itself, this is unacceptable. It appears that the reason for this is that the teams responsible judged it= as too difficult to gain consensus about the text from the wider project, = so it opted to avoid that task. However, in a more democratic, collaborativ= e project like FreeBSD this is a dereliction of duty. The political labor o= f working towards a consensus is a burden of project leadership and must be= done. To that end, the core team and the CoC committee should officially and open= ly solicit feedback from the wider developer group on the present CoC, hone= stly listen to that feedback, incorporate it into a new revision, and prese= nt that revision for approval by the wider group. In the interests of openn= ess and transparency, it=E2=80=99s preferable that the feedback not be pres= ented privately and that discussions about it appear in the open for other = project members to see. 3. This is a much more specific criticism, but the first example of harassm= ent needs to be revised to not exclude so many groups. I suggest that examp= le be replaced with the *exact text* used in the Geek Feminism CoC, which I= =E2=80=99ll quote here: > Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sex= ual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical a= ppearance, body size, age, race, or religion. I would also be fine if that was revised a little bit to =E2=80=9Coffensive= comments or comments that reinforce negative stereotypes,=E2=80=9D which m= ay get more at the intent of the CoC committee's modifications. The current language, which appears to be original to the FreeBSD CoC, spec= ifically does not apply to harassing comments directed at many genders, sex= ual orientations, races, religions, etc. due to its use of the term "system= atic oppression." There=E2=80=99s been some speculation that =E2=80=9Charas= sment includes but is not limited to=E2=80=9D covers such comments, but tha= t=E2=80=99s unacceptably vague. It must be made *clear* that harassment inv= olving *any* gender, race, religion, etc. is unacceptable. This is a major defect that must be corrected. The sorts of harassing comme= nts that the current text doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly forbid occur frequentl= y on social media. 4. The attribution should either be removed or language added stating that = FreeBSD does not endorse the viewpoint of =E2=80=9CGeek Feminism=E2=80= =9D or its ideas; besides the ones it has explicitly borrowed. This is clos= ely related to my point #1 above. 5. This is my least important comment, but the *hugs* example should be exc= ised. This example is too-easily mocked and this kind of behavior is a good= example of the kind of thing that should be covered under =E2=80=9Charassm= ent includes but is not limited to=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D It=E2=80=99s puzzling why this example was included while the glaring defec= ts in the example I covered in my point #3 were unaddressed. 6. The new CoC does not actually cover how one should conduct itself in the= project. It's really just anti-harassment policy with some prefatory plat= itudes about diversity and inclusion. That's really lacking. It should be revised to provide affirmative advice, not just negative examp= les. This could include something like =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is a technical proj= ect. It=E2=80=99s recommended that you focus on technical and project topic= s in your interactions, and avoid other subjects.=E2=80=9D In these regard, the original FreeBSD CoC was far better than the current r= evision. It should be consulted and much of its language salvaged and incor= porated into the new CoC. For reference, that version can be found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20171222235533/https://www.freebsd.org/internal= /code-of-conduct.html 7. Scope should be clarified and reasonable. The current phrasing of= =E2=80=A6 > This code of conduct applies to all spaces used by the FreeBSD Project, i= ncluding our mailing lists, IRC channels, and social media, both online and= off. =E2=80=A6is too ambiguous and may be over-broad. For instance, if someone i= s active on twitter, FreeBSD shouldn=E2=80=99t claim to be policing everyth= ing they=E2=80=99ve ever said there to anyone, because FreeBSD once used tw= itter. The risk I=E2=80=99m trying to avoid here is the kind of harassment = where someone with a grudge goes on a dirt digging expedition in order to e= xploit process. ---- These issues aren=E2=80=99t moot points. I=E2=80=99ve donated to the founda= tion and for some time I=E2=80=99ve toyed with the idea of trying to volunt= eer for the project, probably to help with scut-work due to the fact that m= y skills aren=E2=80=99t very aligned with it (I=E2=80=99m not very handy wi= th C, for instance). While I=E2=80=99ll continue to use FreeBSD, the introd= uction of this revision of the CoC means that it=E2=80=99s unlikely that I= =E2=80=99ll continue with my donations or attempt to volunteer unless the i= ssues are addressed. In short: * The present CoC has numerous issues that were introduced by recent revisi= on. Those issues are both issues in an of themselves and the cause of dram= a. They need to be addressed. * The issues should be addressed through an open, transparent process. If = this had been done initially, the the issues could have been dealt with ear= ly and more easily. * We should salvage language from the old CoC to address some of the proble= ms of the new one. * The CoC should endeavor, mightily, to accomplish its goals while avoiding= , as much as possible, contemporary political controversy, controversial or= sectarian ideology, and controversial terminology. Failure to do so will = inevitably lead to unnecessary drama and distraction, which has been amply = demonstrated by recent events. Thanks, - Fiorello G. Baumgartner, a pseudonymous FreeBSD user ---- P.S. Here=E2=80=99s a proposal for a revised list of examples (double-aster= isks denote modifications). I think we'd have a very good CoC if we took t= he original FreeBSD one, and grafted on these examples and the reporting pr= ocedures of the new CoC. ** Offensive comments or comments that reinforce negative stereotypes relat= ed to any gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disab= ility, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, = age, race, or religion. ** Unwelcome comments regarding a person's lifestyle choices and practices,= including those related to food, health, parenting, non-disruptive drug us= e, and employment. ** Deliberate and harassing use of rejected or unwanted names, nicknames, o= r pronouns. In some cases these are called =E2=80=9Cdead names.=E2=80=9D * Gratuitous or off-topic sexual images or behavior in spaces where they're= not appropriate. ** Physical contact without consent or after a request to stop. ** Threats of physical violence. ** Incitement of physical violence towards any individual, including encour= aging a person to commit suicide or to engage in self-harm. * Deliberate intimidation. ** Stalking or intrusive following. * Harassing photography or recording, including logging online activity for= harassment purposes. * Sustained disruption of discussion. * Unwelcome sexual attention. * Pattern of inappropriate social contact, such as requesting/assuming inap= propriate levels of intimacy with others. * Continued one-on-one communication after requests to cease. ** Deliberate "outing" of any private aspect of a person's identity without= their consent except as necessary to protect people from intentional abuse= . ** Publication of non-harassing private communication without consent, exce= pt to reveal misconduct. * Publication of non-harassing private communication with consent but in a = way that intentionally misrepresents the communication (e.g., removes conte= xt that changes the meaning). * Knowingly making harmful false claims about a person. ---- P.P.S. On the pseudonym: I'm not going to wade into public, forever-archive= d political debates under my real name. People are weird and I would rathe= r not chance the possibility of being stalked or harassed over this. ---- P.P.P.S Thank you for reading this far. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 15:35:03 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0088F3C202; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:35:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: from emkei.cz (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:36:5001::20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 947D77FF36; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:35:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: by emkei.cz (Postfix, from userid 33) id CE84CD5ABC; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:34:25 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Geheimnisse" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Errors-To: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Reply-To: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-Id: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:34:18 +0100 (CET) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:35:03 -0000 Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by the very people you want to be using this OS. It's fucking embarrassing and has all but signaled to a majority of users that there is a preference for progressive decay over technical progress. Do you realize shit like does nothing but red pill normal, accepting individuals who truly just care about technical merit? You care creating the very enemies you seek. And you will ultimately lose. But please, keep insulting us. Oh, mailed under your pseudonym account because we alt-right types like to stalk and harrass people. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Geheimnisse wrote: >Received: from dunkelheit ([23.226.128.30]) >From: Geheimnisse >Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem >Message-ID: <@dunkelheit> >References: <@lonesome.com> ><@fire.js.berklix.net> >In-Reply-To: <@fire.js.berklix.net> >User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) >I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about the new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedoras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. >Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harrass others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is you were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a handful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it won't affect anything. >Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to stalk and harrass people. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 15:49:55 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB817F3D955; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg0-x242.google.com (mail-pg0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D229081664; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:49:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg0-x242.google.com with SMTP id e3so2360156pga.6; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 07:49:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d8Hg4qRYVvLrUZl5CGmTJbT3g8HywdBX73QCweoxOsY=; b=cKhaXJBizMtZ3kLoht74pVP7GId9aogsf/Ao6FURj5VWYA3KPRIyK0ehXogRb58qSI OWKUmDrPo6tkIMZF+ndXqRi1K2d+l3PbMvdRp68aHV34zu79PPxQWP3CzA+JNxLnlbeB Dd9HJchzm9jsMoAE3BVdGAIt22LURJsAq+MmjtM4O3Ntp7kSd1vafl/b8vgQdRgwYp9+ tsym7hbuhcPoly5BsyNqJUxSB7UbpEu3rjWKkMLwlFE9kZsO5U384BZ9HW5uNfkJDrqK PpWQcEJZ2AMl3oYGsh9ycbcXuSlHTJ3wc/0AyjOLfGbmtqs+OhvP+XNu0NIqeyprQX0t v11g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d8Hg4qRYVvLrUZl5CGmTJbT3g8HywdBX73QCweoxOsY=; b=GGXfOn1dRHE3vDP5riKBfZFeap2r5h5SkzGOlnPdmQ0VgzYfV1GkJTOxmNNzApmb/a GhHAbT+hEioqdyLK2iSA4LDelvYRLSOicGAT+SVgWY+ogjZbbULhIrFXHDLAa6uo/0ht T6C2Ux7dK4CfD6EEs6yc/gdF8WexmmZ+MBxQNy350BXn4Xnoyw9/Go9HUS0k3H/7/e99 +6bIIY8uTFWv9nvLL1hPXSAVkoLkTBQufp0xQrzM5RKLVUUrsvmj621FNqUE1tqgpFg+ qYxSO2vu2KTQlgmuHz/xwkFZhQ+XHpe8wV/07LpXOQ/SmOWHzRjLBnhq+2rtF8ZpTEA5 IvBw== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBkONMI4gEtrUVZQJKHw3l5sR7bHjNLzCERkC/EVCcqV++s9Tny tGc4x6NgE831ukXDuGJ6JQVn3eaw9VFLf36P3Xg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvw6e39Jl4z8kj866uwrt0tujzG25Nu0HmteUKPwUvYF+AcNRQgoRl5l4YubaCdHJynWAAhAsqCqbtjOPIRGaA= X-Received: by 10.99.55.70 with SMTP id g6mr21473383pgn.284.1520524193819; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 07:49:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.179.130 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 07:49:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> From: Sander Vesik Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:49:53 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:49:55 -0000 > Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you > are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by > the very people you want to be using this OS Well, no, I am fairly certain you are wrong on this part. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 16:20:18 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62369F40680 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:20:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF57283286 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w28GIeFu025472 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:18:44 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w28GK5R0021477 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:20:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w28GJrEx072436 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:20:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803081620.w28GJrEx072436@fire.js.berklix.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 07 Mar 2018 21:31:13 -0500." <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:19:53 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:20:18 -0000 > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because Troll. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 16:56:19 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90513F438AD; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail3.protonmail.ch (mail3.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2030585854; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:55:51 -0500 To: "geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com" From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLYTO autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:56:19 -0000 > Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete f****t. People like you = are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by = the very people you want to be using this OS. You post is so over the top that I can't even tell if you're really this te= rrible or just a classical troll play-acting someone like that to start a f= lame war. In any case, you are causing nothing but damage. Go away, - Fiorello =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On March 8, 2018 9:34 AM, Geheimnisse wrote: > Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you = are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by = the very people you want to be using this OS. It's fucking embarrassing and= has all but signaled to a majority of users that there is a preference for= progressive decay over technical progress. Do you realize shit like does n= othing but red pill normal, accepting individuals who truly just care about= technical merit? You care creating the very enemies you seek. And you will= ultimately lose. But please, keep insulting us. >=20 > Oh, mailed under your pseudonym account because we alt-right types like t= o stalk and harrass people. >=20 > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Geheimnisse geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com wro= te: >=20 > > Received: from dunkelheit (\[23.226.128.30\]) > >=20 > > From: Geheimnisse geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com > >=20 > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem > >=20 > > Message-ID: <@dunkelheit> > >=20 > > References: <@lonesome.com> ><@fire.js.berklix.net> > >=20 > > In-Reply-To: <@fire.js.berklix.net> > >=20 > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) >=20 > > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about = the new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fed= oras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. > >=20 > > Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harr= ass others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is = you were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a h= andful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it = won't affect anything. > >=20 > > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like = to stalk and harrass people. > >=20 > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > >=20 > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > >=20 > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >=20 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 16:58:05 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F159CF43B4D; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail3.protonmail.ch (mail3.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F0E9859C4; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:58:00 -0500 To: Geheimnisse From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:58:05 -0000 > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about th= e new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedor= as. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. >=20 > .... Nobody cares aside from a handful of neckbeards, and nobody will car= e in a couple of weeks because it won't affect anything. Your comments should run afoul of *any* reasonable CoC. They are pure cont= empt of a strawman and have no substance. They have no place here. - Fiorello =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On March 7, 2018 8:31 PM, Geheimnisse wrote: > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about th= e new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedor= as. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. >=20 > Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harras= s others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is yo= u were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a han= dful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it wo= n't affect anything. >=20 > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to= stalk and harrass people. >=20 > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >=20 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 17:07:12 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD528F44656 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:07:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m@fifo.io) Received: from smtp0.lal.lwxdatacom.net (smtp0.lal.lwxdatacom.net [IPv6:2620:12e:1000::a00:10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74BC18605C for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:07:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m@fifo.io) Received: from fifo.io (unknown [IPv6:2620:12e:1000:0:a892:c4d5:9907:24c5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp0.lal.lwxdatacom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 657EF19D39 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:07:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 12:07:01 -0500 From: "Mike Oliver, KT2T" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180308170701.xsel5q3anidpymk6@fifo.io> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-WWW-URL: http://kt2t.us/ X-GPG-PGP-Public-Key: http://kt2t.us/gnupg/pubkey.asc X-GPG-PGP-Fingerprint: F850 18A7 F21A B32F CC4A F9AA 15DA 98BF 296F 4C77 X-GVOICE-Phone: +1-863-606-8008 X-Mobile-Phone: +1-863-738-2334 X-Mailing-Address0: 8008 Apache Lane X-Mailing-Address1: Lakeland, FL 33810-2172 X-Mailing-Address2: United States of America X-Guide-Questions: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html X-Guide-Netiquette: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:07:13 -0000 On 2018-03-08T17:49:53+0200, Sander Vesik wrote: >> Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you >> are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by >> the very people you want to be using this OS > > > Well, no, I am fairly certain you are wrong on this part. Surely, there is overlap among those who want to use FreeBSD and those who are embarrassed for the project given how the CoC has been received, and in that overlap group I can see how some would perceive the CoC as unnecessary, unnecessarily specific, or insulting. When I read it, I wondered if this is now KinderBSD (kinder as in kindergarten, to be clear), because just about everything in the finger-wagging don't-do-this list are things that most would have learned as children. What many also learned as children, which would obviate the need for this grotesquely specific CoC, is a thick skin. In my years, I've tried to be as kind as possible while accepting all variations of behavior. Certainly, there are those who would perceive me as kind, and others would perceive me as caustic, but I can only be me. I accept kindness and bitterness from others in a Postel-like mindset of being conservative in what I transmit and liberal in what I accept, but that appears to be a dying concept if we truly need documents like this new CoC. As I said, I can only be me, and I have good days and bad. Others are no different, and I am inclined to absorb those barbs and move on. I haven't been involved much in FreeBSD, other than many years of persistent advocacy, lately due to other priorities in my life, and to come back into this and see how things have changed is depressing and disheartening. You are all good people, you do good work, and you mostly treat each other with respect and dignity (CoC disputes and occasional rants notwithstanding). It makes me sad to see you at each others throats over this. There was a sentiment I read that the new CoC was needed because core@ didn't act upon previous perceived egregious behavior, and that this new CoC would address that. It seems to me that if rules against bad behavior weren't enforced, the way to address that is not to make new rules but to replace the (un)enforcers. How, exactly, does a new and arguably pedantic set of rules fix weak enforcement? It doesn't add up to me. One individual that has, and continues to, garner my respect is phk@, and I've learned much from his writings over the years. I even contributed to his experiment of taking time off of $DAYJOB to work on FreeBSD *way* back in the day. Another is DES, who could be the most caustic of anyone if you were lazy and didn't read before asking. Both of these guys, and Warner, and Brooks, and Robert N. M. Watson, and more that I can't recall so easily, are titans. That deep respect I have for them is what makes flippant invectives like "what behavior in the CoC do you want in the project" so deflating. Nobody on either side wants to see or experience harassment, and you're smart enough to know it. The phrasing of the argument where you want your opponent to enumerate what abhorrent behavior should be allowed, knowing that your opponent wants no such thing, is a disingenuous tactic used purely to stifle the dialog, and it's working. I am not here to defend a profanity-laced rant from , either. Both cases are disgusting. I've said enough, I suppose. Yes, I am on the side of rescinding the new CoC until such time as it has wider acceptance (surely by modification) by those who must live under it. Either way, I don't have to live under it and my opinion doesn't matter at all. However, as someone who has spent near 20 years in persistent advocacy of this project, I am invested personally and would like to see it gone. Not because I support any of the behavior condemned by the CoC, which I hope is obvious by now, but because it unnecessarily codifies ideas which are highly controversial to the point of being harassment to those who don't subscribe to those ideas. Yes, the document written to deter harassment is itself a tool of harassment. You're telling people who may not subscribe to the contemporary social assertions made in the new CoC that they must accept those assertions and you have no caring whatsoever how that imposition affects those who don't believe what you believe. This is the classic lack of tolerance shown by those who demand tolerance. I wish you all the best. Warmest regards, Mike -- Mike Oliver, KT2T [see complete headers for contact information] From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 17:54:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A3FF47F55 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:54:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johannes@perceivon.net) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53308681DD for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:54:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johannes@perceivon.net) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id i3so879604wmi.4 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 09:54:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=perceivon-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=d0YK6C7/jqc7vCjnI/o5dY0uPEe50WDFxgCvSU2rGCU=; b=msVI1OlOBlknYZAFnN0NmZcCVBHRrgDuQtxggI93r4JVjQ6JmofEl5NdcGztBg1eK0 Dpcquhavpv1B2mL1pCbimKMl0KHw7jfbNxXsN/sJzke9+AUP6G4KGAyyc+qw1dZPFePb aDBfFD1+0hhR9Ju7LSH/obXgyqNsOXIKECcVm9+HAyR3/SfLdaZy9MhNc1ebuq2WALh5 BB+/RnKD0xDuFI4h4oCczu5dQ22bj/5WSawNTIiZLFOyPWRiHlqqg6BcgbDBkeAvlkbF rkKQ44dAq/lrzXtICgpwI6uvHjX+AyjDyeWCyLghXIZ1tpepiH+Jl2w3gPew3I96lhEp sv+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=d0YK6C7/jqc7vCjnI/o5dY0uPEe50WDFxgCvSU2rGCU=; b=XUdr8c2pcuh7puN7TapJlBDyEFHL6CUduIpHIyA2rI96WUbNXiNPTmSKa5bYUAXKgl UmBdpYEnRXSACKiVZN+AnPr61hfaeMbJyRZ0CEUGxGYf/jAZVzrGqjD3NJ1WG643WZA4 S9ySSgQc9rk6wAUJDZRMwCKseUaiQCplqiyhM7ZkhI+qy9YFRSt3T4YZ7W6Q07VHZStI 0wGBqLsJqqy2TU0RjEY1Mx10cPxGhTYU/1ynWFlD1wYvwNdBXXFn0A2dRiZeo42ru1X2 8D4IDNxQlg3ugeElxv5mLDkcdo8+Cbu/1ofg4KB0Ju3LCTvM8zGR6oFNHzQP82qgtygy Q/2A== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPB/q7MXQhfuxJXBbA/oNxaiDNCM1DzJ4qn8KvMJ1hx65KF2rrD5 SjCmiUCx3I4vtgA4zt9eUZHvpLgG X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtAjh66TJwBaatuMroXUAvVtmvE748uysYz+6Q3Ax+ICkHzak4lxXDPXqiDi1Jv8no6QjVGyQ== X-Received: by 10.80.224.71 with SMTP id g7mr33193985edl.47.1520531690480; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 09:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx16 (214.247.77.83.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch. [83.77.247.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j55sm19374773ede.14.2018.03.08.09.54.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Thu, 08 Mar 2018 09:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx16 (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f359a1bf; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 18:54:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: Julian Zottl , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Johannes Jost Meixner Organization: Perceivon Hosting Inc. Message-ID: <94be57d4-d0b1-0050-efe8-c275b05883e1@perceivon.net> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 18:54:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6Yiex4xWMzcezFOoLAJkuhoJ3367x94de" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:54:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --6Yiex4xWMzcezFOoLAJkuhoJ3367x94de Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="uodo8Fty5opA58BVAw7Z4Hem7sKN60Z77"; protected-headers="v1" From: Johannes Jost Meixner To: Julian Zottl , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <94be57d4-d0b1-0050-efe8-c275b05883e1@perceivon.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: --uodo8Fty5opA58BVAw7Z4Hem7sKN60Z77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/07/2018 21:48, Julian Zottl wrote: > So I'll ask a stupid question: Why not base it off of the millions of C= oC's > already out there? > https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html > is a good start. Yes, it's a commercial company, but it could easily b= e > modified. >=20 > The CoC as it stands is ridiculous. Here is my contribution to helping= =2E > Don't call out inclusion, it should naturally happen with an open CoC. = I > like the KISS method of working. >=20 >=20 > We want the FreeBSD Project to be a venue where people can work togethe= r to > make the best operating system, built by a strong community. These valu= es > extend beyond just development to all aspects of the Project. >=20 > This code applies equally to everyone representing the FreeBSD Project = in > any way, from new members, to committers, to the core team itself. Thes= e > rules are intended to ensure everyone feels welcome both working within= , > and interacting with, the Project. This document is a guide to make it > easier to enrich all of us and the technical communities in which we > participate. >=20 > This code of conduct applies to all spaces used by the FreeBSD Project,= > including our mailing lists, IRC channels, and social media, both onlin= e > and off. Anyone who is found to violate this code of conduct may be > sanctioned or expelled from FreeBSD Project controlled spaces at the > discretion of the FreeBSD Code of Conduct Committee. >=20 > Some FreeBSD Project spaces may have additional rules in place, which w= ill > be made clearly available to participants. Participants are responsible= for > knowing and abiding by these rules. >=20 > *Rules:* >=20 > *Do no Evil* - Follow the law, acting honorably, and treating co-worker= s > with courtesy and respect. Recognize that everything we do in connectio= n > with FreeBSD will be, and should be, measured against the highest possi= ble > standards of ethical conduct. >=20 > *No Retaliation* - FreeBSD prohibits retaliation against any person who= > reports or participates in an investigation of a possible violation of = our > Code, policies, or the law. If you believe you are being retaliated > against, please contact Ethics & Compliance. >=20 > *Serve Our Users* - Our users value FreeBSD not only because we deliver= a > great Operating System, but because we hold ourselves to a higher stand= ard > in how we treat users and operate more generally. Keeping the following= > principles in mind will help us to maintain that high standard: >=20 > =C2=B7 *Integrity* - Our reputation as a community that our users can= trust is > our most valuable asset, and it is up to all of us to make sure that we= > continually earn that trust. All of our communications and other > interactions with our users should increase their trust in us. >=20 > =C2=B7 *Usefulness* - Our Operating System should be useful for all o= ur users. > We have many different types of users, from individuals to large > businesses, but one guiding principle: =E2=80=9CIs what we are offering= useful?=E2=80=9D >=20 > =C2=B7 *Freedom of Expression* - FreeBSD is committed to advancing pr= ivacy and > freedom of expression for our users around the world. Where user privac= y > and freedom of expression face government challenges, we seek to implem= ent > internationally recognized standards that respect those rights as we > develop products, do business in diverse markets, and respond to govern= ment > requests to access user information or remove user content. Contact Leg= al > or Ethics & Compliance if you have questions on implementing these > standards in connection with what you do with FreeBSD. >=20 > =C2=B7 *Responsiveness* - Part of being useful and honest is being re= sponsive: > We recognize relevant user feedback when we see it, and we do something= > about it. We take pride in responding to communications from our users,= > whether questions, problems, or compliments. If something is broken, fi= x it. >=20 > =C2=B7 *Take Action* - Any time you feel our users aren=E2=80=99t bei= ng well-served, > don=E2=80=99t be bashful - let someone in the community know about it. = Continually > improving our product takes all of us, and we=E2=80=99re proud that Fre= eBSD > champions our users and take the initiative to step forward when the > interests of our users are at stake. >=20 > *Equal Opportunity Community* >=20 > Bring a contributor to the FreeBSD community is based solely upon > individual merit and qualifications directly related to competence. We > strictly prohibit unlawful discrimination or harassment on the basis of= > race, color, religion, veteran status, national origin, ancestry, pregn= ancy > status, sex, gender identity or expression, age, marital status, mental= or > physical disability, medical condition, sexual orientation, or any othe= r > characteristics protected by law. We also make all reasonable > accommodations to meet our obligations under laws protecting the rights= of > the disabled. >=20 > *Harassment, Discrimination, and Bullying* >=20 > FreeBSD prohibits discrimination, harassment and bullying in any form =E2= =80=93 > verbal, physical, or visual If you believe you=E2=80=99ve been bullied = or harassed > by anyone at FreeBSD, or in the community, we strongly encourage you to= > immediately report the incident contact to the FreeBSD Ethics & Complia= nce > group. >=20 > *Conclusion* >=20 > FreeBSD aspires to be a different kind of community. It=E2=80=99s impos= sible to > spell out every possible ethical scenario we might face. Instead, we re= ly > on one another=E2=80=99s good judgment to uphold a high standard of int= egrity for > ourselves and our company. We expect all FreeBSD=E2=80=99ers to be guid= ed by both > the letter and the spirit of this Code. Sometimes, identifying the righ= t > thing to do isn=E2=80=99t an easy call. If you aren=E2=80=99t sure, don= =E2=80=99t be afraid to ask > questions of the FreeBSD Ethics & Compliance group. >=20 > And remember=E2=80=A6 don=E2=80=99t be evil, and if you see something t= hat you think isn=E2=80=99t > right =E2=80=93 speak up! >=20 > Not really that hard, eh? > ---- > Julian One of the previous codes of conduct made that "merit" case, it was not well-received and resulted in https://svnweb.freebsd.org/doc/head/en_US.ISO8859-1/htdocs/internal/code-= of-conduct.xml?r1=3D46998&r2=3D47141 --uodo8Fty5opA58BVAw7Z4Hem7sKN60Z77-- --6Yiex4xWMzcezFOoLAJkuhoJ3367x94de Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEwY8kko8dNupPoLLvSWqdcGJQ1AIFAlqheMgACgkQSWqdcGJQ 1ALBUg/+N8Xs2oHO9nxavVsd6lTTMrE8LHMGOHaS22s14UBA/RwJUzFpVCYaoeMy aZ1WG6LqtncJeGHXpj7yOy1ERfcWpdsUfgIOmP4+YlhdRNTfR518kPsiJzqPUM4V cJv1OZN0agPFTKWZ//T4fapu3ViQ60NW8yblbBXMNiTo9DZv38Sehp5dzQtQYdv7 GXGM/gUVSI24S6X6mK8Y0fTfAJ+gY2oy8/bABhDl2vnL2aOOfFcenaol7hIuxegN J50Ax2+Ak9USY49/sMOEs+2wA11B94NHM640jMNygLbIOggorYhQ+AHPFNGw5uUf qElbitDareRf11JhQNseyHvnhVXlOzCB0LthntlNhX+pa2MLc/MCSYmFeZXJRoTc F+CbRj6Lrqg6deVO2EaPTLd9entltP3lDLkalqJYPEVgDaD5PuBO4IhC+KyhgQY6 qITB9Akyd269QzcHhFczWK5dtLeBChXzIp/kf37Rasl3jhQrVawivwsBbb2pNOiG arNQZcSJt7pn9z4FkA8YuJ2OHYNXtDwWZEDYK1X0ZYUDbjSwTw6AjxEXfyul5Jo5 GpPk+oQ3vduZsyQJSNkUfuYwPbqXD9gjUKlrwj6gMfQvUgTJPJRqhcetdLkNwPuC Dbt+n7d1+CYmLvR/ptrn/CwECmTH8xMdTNpLN7vJWGn/7TTlZh4= =iwqZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6Yiex4xWMzcezFOoLAJkuhoJ3367x94de-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 19:31:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA51F27CF9; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:31:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x241.google.com (mail-qk0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75B5A6C959; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:31:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk0-x241.google.com with SMTP id f25so1011115qkm.0; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-disposition :user-agent; bh=MhA0FabUwCnqtMYkx9vEAEYyGHHK16/SBVUU4H1e/Ks=; b=okRjbqKYFkdZs4Tqj8KGRuO3EJGzlHYbufCLGTYz77H2wh33bRZpXKnSWxEvUKGr5k Bra+1DgshVvjMMbvPAnuc0gy3nw0caRgRu4vFUCp3mjXliYZiwe6WdP6F+sDnCQ+YNVq OX0JsP/uL82coLCmJUTVYAQkd6vtPl0qF3H9eEf8UqfZH19PsWW0NGklOt1m53ek07Wk fkuSxJo11tVfkMTNPJtfQqE7ig1XSaPTkM0jWM6xJWIOerYSmjAFA5WQHdDsWGhTgZk6 4McWyEKNQdqgNfrm8y0elBVWq96GNdYMA82cjO2W80blM/07fc0vHYS0w8FbSIp8uJxB Wdiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=MhA0FabUwCnqtMYkx9vEAEYyGHHK16/SBVUU4H1e/Ks=; b=fB+gzDcoOFcMpXgeORqr28AC+s6W/fbPC0NyOA5Z/alxJ0GvPz5eU9Hoks49KcydYX dBqUuGq+2N24T/K+k6LVg6FB/xwso0ROzcrC5vQqCd55XV8RiM+nU/0GTZGwPbaiZZxl A8vQA+1pNHPQokrq+cfApCynAFqY0FNzVV2yBS48IhHSXwGAxstUdL4YOIvKccu3MnLZ D6SfyadWu8B9ASCWZ9fhVNUDXeG16WlM680SmYs+kJz9uoXtn8B26yE1uieudVrh80RO Nh2ZS8gMzAUlQ+wf7RWqReD4dTFEkcZ3KuG9bE5gu2GlbgV7+AgcXvPdrem7LmTAEJsE WO7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FztqO419jxKCjS9D28JKN5wRJCgrox8pkFVCTSo9YeYdumeUzY 8JGaXKM/xdx4FPFTSGj2xqE25g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsv64M8gaEHqSuk0Kp2b9cBbYLky/VHGvYSjNWYUAT21jnDjzB0ZenZ2dXBenHR0Xai7of+HQ== X-Received: by 10.55.151.135 with SMTP id z129mr40699443qkd.339.1520537515914; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dunkelheit ([23.226.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m30sm15194975qkh.91.2018.03.08.11.31.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 14:31:28 -0500 From: Geheimnisse To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 19:31:57 -0000 Nope, Not a troll. Just protecting myself from alt-right creeps. Let's see, where to begin? Unironically using the term "cuck" as in "CuckBSD". Check. Unironically using the term "red pill". Check. Both of which are exclusively part of the alt-right lexicon. So, FreeBSD may have a politics problem - an alt-right politics problem. Manchildren who cry any time something happens that isn't right-wing. They don't want "politics out of FreeBSD" regarding the CoC, they want a CoC that aligns with their alt-right values. In conclusion, the alt-right can shut the hell up and move on to their next target. Leave FreeBSD alone, you neckbeard creeps. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 19:44:26 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB190F29FEB for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:44:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from demian.fc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8146D190 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:44:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from demian.fc@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id g21so952241ioj.5 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:44:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cZ2viCCPnIwU9pmWqrCgK/vgEVHExkPRitrtAxiCT+E=; b=GULsRIS9wKGXW8LFNKwJ5Bir97BQ2YoNjSSZV/YGZwGvspnuoA9ffzVArm4kCGoVo0 9A79WaCbNl3Yyav1UeSK7rdoK+4U7e6IvdL+2Dsxt3jkz4bkU1C64ceDHmlwhcAbmSwY AQqM4NEPn07XdnbOvNU9UYcCYAVXbGLlqnp4JV1ddx47Q9ScZGyk6VbB0rgGkgZLlSbV EDdlFs6rTqe5iKzQJnJiy9whksEvlsBBJPhwVgdl2ELS1JjCicdCmDg8v61r9bA3AGpa l9k7oHHJojJbtrEPXBXDY87B7MBmkY+684jdqk4Gz/njUMtDL/gSD70k1pjt5xfsTr3C zN5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=cZ2viCCPnIwU9pmWqrCgK/vgEVHExkPRitrtAxiCT+E=; b=fazpyJnAcnhRtKHBFCPcXdtvz7yJ4Km4SmeGHTcv8rtjzCVHKzfMDEw+eYJ/OIXTNI xDsZT8ZqT2PGrVFmyrmZaHJo0APXdbse6jcGlmkOlyKGjJZoEv+R91ZBeeWU+pCILDZt QhNRfvY5brniY8fCXNEB4PR+2tZQ5eKCvUr8IMSZuHYF5XAf+VCLLoXlIha9xl12Lsfn YMAdM6VhwNXktKosNQoRYOqIdZo2zMOHzLKqtvFUo9dcSJZpDjeh/+baGGG7AeW86ydu 8chTyOtq1kEC4NkxxFj9W1gHFRwI9o8BmXalm0HtaDQQTQC/DKqU2N83kRWR6nNBl9Ng qoVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EFFmv/F1LCJ6ZziOtz/auLUHv9WP9KrIq/8zX5C3EAIdU/vFq0 ypso5fuilpiz/S/RsenYi/YT0dECYNzW94Sgztc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuKDWZnO3pmQOqcx1bVpauLTTVcvoRLw3WVrNWLag67CLNWy1pT6Ilxdq+mV+amQ0UscG3RIYPQ1qrDxtlQBiY= X-Received: by 10.107.25.77 with SMTP id 74mr4139308ioz.33.1520538264375; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:44:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.167.2 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 11:44:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180308170701.xsel5q3anidpymk6@fifo.io> References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> <20180308170701.xsel5q3anidpymk6@fifo.io> From: Federico Caminiti Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:44:23 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 19:44:26 -0000 2018-03-08 14:07 GMT-03:00 Mike Oliver, KT2T : > > Surely, there is overlap among those who want to use FreeBSD and those > who are embarrassed for the project given how the CoC has been received, > and in that overlap group I can see how some would perceive the CoC as > unnecessary, unnecessarily specific, or insulting. > > I myself am also concerned about this. The initial intention to create a Code of Conduct was announced in the " freebsd-announce" mailing list (1) but no further discussion seems to have taken place anywhere. There is a "conduct" mailing list (2) which sound like it was created for a discussion of this sort, but as of today (08/03/2018) it seems to be empty. Like many, my main point of contention is that this was decided behind closed doors and there was no public discussion on the matter. What was the rationale for choosing Geek Feminism Wiki as guide on how to implement a code of conduct and not for example, the KDE Code of Conduct (3) or the Contributor Covenant (4) ?. The last one seems closer in spirit to what is trying to be achieved here, without inflamatory and/or politically charged language. Maybe there are non-arbitrary reasons behind the creation of this new CoC, but since it was discussed in private, we have no way to know. [1] - https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/ 2016-January/001691.html [2] - https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/conduct/ [3] - https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ [4] - https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 20:06:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A33F2BB27 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:06:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ted@io-tx.com) Received: from io-tx.com (io-tx.com [209.198.147.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.io-tx.com", Issuer "AlphaSSL CA - SHA256 - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CB16E172 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ted@io-tx.com) Received: from io-tx.com (io-tx.com [209.198.147.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by io-tx.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w28JqR1b066931 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 13:52:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ted@io-tx.com) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 13:52:27 -0600 (CST) From: Ted Hatfield To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> <20180308170701.xsel5q3anidpymk6@fifo.io> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.3 at io-tx.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on io-tx.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 20:06:25 -0000 On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Federico Caminiti wrote: > 2018-03-08 14:07 GMT-03:00 Mike Oliver, KT2T : > >> >> Surely, there is overlap among those who want to use FreeBSD and those >> who are embarrassed for the project given how the CoC has been received, >> and in that overlap group I can see how some would perceive the CoC as >> unnecessary, unnecessarily specific, or insulting. >> >> > I myself am also concerned about this. The initial intention to create a > Code of Conduct was announced in the " freebsd-announce" mailing list (1) > but no further discussion seems to have taken place anywhere. There is a > "conduct" mailing list (2) which sound like it was created for a discussion > of this sort, but as of today (08/03/2018) it seems to be empty. Like many, > my main point of contention is that this was decided behind closed doors > and there was no public discussion on the matter. > > What was the rationale for choosing Geek Feminism Wiki as guide on how to > implement a code of conduct and not for example, the KDE Code of Conduct > (3) or the Contributor Covenant (4) ?. The last one seems closer in spirit > to what is trying to be achieved here, without inflamatory and/or > politically charged language. Maybe there are non-arbitrary reasons behind > the creation of this new CoC, but since it was discussed in private, we > have no way to know. > > [1] - https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/ > 2016-January/001691.html > [2] - https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/conduct/ > [3] - https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ > [4] - https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I've read the published Code of Conduct here: https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html all of the provisions listed appear to me to be reasonable. Rather than get all bent out of shape about the fact that it's based upon the example policy at "Geek Feminism" I would like to hear exactly what's in the code of conduct you object to. Ted Hatfield From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 20:57:45 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75059F2FA9C; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:57:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail3.protonmail.ch (mail3.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F780700E8; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:57:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:57:32 -0500 To: Geheimnisse From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> References: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 20:57:45 -0000 Geheimnisse, you are *both* using words from the asshole lexicon and conduc= ting yourselves poorly. I don't think anyone wants to hear you go on about= your "alt-right" boogyman any more than we want to hear others go on about= their "SJW" boogyman. This whole thing is difficult enough as it is, don'= t make it worse. Please stop. Thanks, Fiorello =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On March 8, 2018 1:31 PM, Geheimnisse wrote: > Nope, Not a troll. Just protecting myself from alt-right creeps. >=20 > Let's see, where to begin? Unironically using the term "cuck" as in "Cuck= BSD". Check. Unironically using the term "red pill". Check. >=20 > Both of which are exclusively part of the alt-right lexicon. >=20 > So, FreeBSD may have a politics problem - an alt-right politics problem. = Manchildren who cry any time something happens that isn't right-wing. They = don't want "politics out of FreeBSD" regarding the CoC, they want a CoC tha= t aligns with their alt-right values. >=20 > In conclusion, the alt-right can shut the hell up and move on to their ne= xt target. Leave FreeBSD alone, you neckbeard creeps. >=20 > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >=20 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 22:45:24 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C017BF3874F for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 22:45:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498E5752AE for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 22:45:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w28MhqQ0050796 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 22:43:57 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w28MjIlY023249 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 23:45:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w28Mj6TZ074910 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 23:45:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803082245.w28Mj6TZ074910@fire.js.berklix.net> to: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 08 Mar 2018 14:31:28 -0500." <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 23:45:06 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 22:45:24 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Geheimnisse > Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 14:31:28 -0500 Geheimnisse wrote: > Nope, Not a troll. Troll, added to my black list. If it has been seen trolling wider, others might report it to postmaster@freebsd.org &/or abuse@gmail.com. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 23:13:28 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6391FF3A954 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 23:13:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED0CA767EC for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 23:13:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA8FAD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.143.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w28NBuuD051833 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Mar 2018 23:12:00 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w28NDLMm023445; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 00:13:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w28ND3hv075105; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 00:13:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201803082313.w28ND3hv075105@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Ted Hatfield cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:52:27 -0600." Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 00:13:03 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 23:13:28 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Ted Hatfield > Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 13:52:27 -0600 (CST) Ted Hatfield wrote: > On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Federico Caminiti wrote: > > 2018-03-08 14:07 GMT-03:00 Mike Oliver, KT2T : > > > >> > >> Surely, there is overlap among those who want to use FreeBSD and those > >> who are embarrassed for the project given how the CoC has been received, > >> and in that overlap group I can see how some would perceive the CoC as > >> unnecessary, unnecessarily specific, or insulting. > >> > >> > > I myself am also concerned about this. The initial intention to create a > > Code of Conduct was announced in the " freebsd-announce" mailing list (1) > > but no further discussion seems to have taken place anywhere. There is a > > "conduct" mailing list (2) which sound like it was created for a discussion > > of this sort, but as of today (08/03/2018) it seems to be empty. Like many, > > my main point of contention is that this was decided behind closed doors > > and there was no public discussion on the matter. > > > > What was the rationale for choosing Geek Feminism Wiki as guide on how to > > implement a code of conduct and not for example, the KDE Code of Conduct > > (3) or the Contributor Covenant (4) ?. The last one seems closer in spirit > > to what is trying to be achieved here, without inflamatory and/or > > politically charged language. Maybe there are non-arbitrary reasons behind > > the creation of this new CoC, but since it was discussed in private, we > > have no way to know. > > > > [1] - https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/ > > 2016-January/001691.html > > [2] - https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/conduct/ > > [3] - https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ > > [4] - https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > I've read the published Code of Conduct here: > > https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > > all of the provisions listed appear to me to be reasonable. > > Rather than get all bent out of shape about the fact that it's based upon > the example policy at "Geek Feminism" I would like to hear exactly what's > in the code of conduct you object to. There's good bits but bad bits too. Reluctant to reiterate. I suggest re-skim the many points other have made. Theyre all in archive, eg one I posted: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/2018-March/004699.html Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit Referendum stole 3,700,000 votes, inc. 700,000 from British in EU. UK Govt. lied it's "democratic" in Article 50 letter to EU paragraph 3. Petition for votes: http://berklix.eu/queen/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Fri Mar 9 01:10:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EA8F4353E for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 01:10:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04B4E7AD06 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 01:10:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id y6so9028459qtm.7 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:10:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=whatexit.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZWS7G2sHMoCSaDG8g+2VOJ3H+jYT0kgv2OmErlfqeFk=; b=gsOvsl/Z7meWAwaBEjyRxx5TlP47FI4moWzxIg4Pst3nk7sHWk0HFSsZb5O+U3Nqjf +aPi3GXNQjjIrXzKMw4FzqVizauXjp6htyzH7sC2mzDCoo7gm1fcKJN9nzlMoLd2WjkE ZWduy+TpdgmJ5Bx2T5DNfQ04s6wqvhbO40dH4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZWS7G2sHMoCSaDG8g+2VOJ3H+jYT0kgv2OmErlfqeFk=; b=Lolk5U4hmAJ/KDyKdXAASmDiRsEZzWxkzz5aOarOUsalKhbg1ZFZg6+qKgsjziV+6I qSJDGNCXZPX7eZgvIGU5c5ZNNei4AK8cpnAXnH7umbKU/VMJo14tEO0NkLqpjgHUJH2r GTxRuXgRbQzho9D4dQ437JliIDy2US2EWDkxSA24HAXCKIsqk2kXPSFmNn7XTxtPmFnO cQMrFXIbplPEMzW4PfrOzyNimdG/1AU4PJghlu7r3kn3oIDbmBo+kFrjkv0oSKkr72hl LaxlQaK5CLfNZh/b9l9bCqpJoN9Pxp2XOLejHJnQRh5Kap7IU2LCj8WBfYPOf7cLv1dA koDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F7zSq1S90V1zZCsVqQpj4RefS/FgiJm4yo3neQWt2/HvXhHUXV CMm0OW1Qnx+rtK16YdoRH4HPWkukgcoeX8ynWHuvXQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELv06Zrv+Fvf/czO04YaM0a9W5oB7O0XnKtrnt/h3Hys11NdHI/ZOe4o58Lq8+Xqh+E+/vMwdR7cU0BWh/gGnIQ= X-Received: by 10.237.51.132 with SMTP id v4mr43438705qtd.72.1520557833278; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:10:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> In-Reply-To: <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> From: Tom Limoncelli Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 01:10:21 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: Geheimnisse Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 01:10:34 -0000 Sing it, Geheimnisse! Tom On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:31 PM Geheimnisse wrote: > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about the > new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their > fedoras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. > > Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harrass > others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is you > were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a > handful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it > won't affect anything. > > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to > stalk and harrass people. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile. Autocorrect is my co-author.