From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 3 21:05:18 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C7610AD807; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:05:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF7A88F691; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:05:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 673363C475F; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:05:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:05:16 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:18 -0000 --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl The criteria for exception are: - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be deemed satisfy the "popular" requirement. - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. The full FCP-0101 is included below. -- Brooks --- authors: Brooks Davis state: feedback --- # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before FreeBSD 13. ## Problem Statement Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to iflib, but each additional driver takes work. 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). ## Proposed Solution We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This will entail: - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes to FreeBSD 12. - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated devices. Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be deemed satisfy the "popular" requirement. - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) ### Exceptions to removal Device | Reason -------|------------------------------------------------- ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards fxp | Popular device long recommended by the project. dc | Popular device for CardBus card. hme | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. sis | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641. vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards. xl | Popular device for CardBus card. Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round. ### Device to be removed ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe ## Final Disposition TBD --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbtS8LAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAgGIIAIf/HrZS1GimKs2lATax83yk 8LzR3qFz0t5ZJAzYjh6u+BjXxBM2cca8MhLHojG+qMzMVpKsSZ0x97YJyxg8Eu+o urJ5gDZ1wb6hcfRcrbg87/9Ek68gcAjY8MsSNjTJbyAigQmFrRVkhdELn4QF3wU7 hU+1LOmbtL/yp3qk2Ub/wd1zeOu6MKd5mcFbAOjWHxV9Yz5Mb/uisVtuOeEPmStT zm8UcjAwlBJXR2j2O1/u0JXh1oEh4gXA6ARD3G2Gtr+peKiLcpiEPzttvidAtrdQ PevJk/Xp+Tugrl963b0Yg9LLecww+z+Ta8X2NKxULlz0vSzkYQDUl82X2do3jms= =A/uC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 3 21:53:19 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CF910AF075 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30DEB71A62 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:53:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w93LrHHA012703 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:53:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w93LrGJw012702 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:53:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:53:16 +0200 From: Robert Clausecker To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:53:19 -0000 I request that ed(4) be kept as well as that's the driver for NE2000 compatible cards, the most common kind of ethernet card for the ISA bus. In case anybody wants to run FreeBSD on a system with just an ISA bus, this kind of card would be the easiest way to get networking to work. It's also a commonly emulated card by virtual machines, e.g. by QEMU. Yours, Robert Clausecker On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. > > The full FCP-0101 is included below. > > -- Brooks > > --- > authors: Brooks Davis > state: feedback > --- > > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before > FreeBSD 13. > > ## Problem Statement > > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). > > ## Proposed Solution > > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes > to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated > devices. > > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > ### Exceptions to removal > > Device | Reason > -------|------------------------------------------------- > ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards > fxp | Popular device long recommended by the project. > dc | Popular device for CardBus card. > hme | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. > le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. > sis | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641. > vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards. > xl | Popular device for CardBus card. > > Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round. > > ### Device to be removed > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > ## Final Disposition > > TBD -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 3 23:35:20 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2995F10B10AB for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:35:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jakub_lach@mailplus.pl) Received: from n6.nabble.com (n6.nabble.com [162.255.23.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E0B75233 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:35:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jakub_lach@mailplus.pl) Received: from n6.nabble.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by n6.nabble.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE5F9C59760 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 16:35:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 16:35:19 -0700 (MST) From: Jakub Lach To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1538609719357-0.post@n6.nabble.com> In-Reply-To: <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> References: <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 23:35:20 -0000 I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PCs. Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too. -- Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 3 23:42:50 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662CD10B1342 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:42:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x12d.google.com (mail-it1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6912755D4 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id q70-v6so10775044itb.3 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 16:42:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W1vRRiDU0oMJpLP8QprN+sXIKGDOX6qRo3t4W28ql7w=; b=zVNekEJo+8gTKFB01yIgPPR8YDXpnYYyoRi0rj9pHhqEO85DvQjoDV5ZTWAx85qjbZ Lx1QoPcofdduSZqogTmJzNF0u+dUG4BEhcqJuOuLXpxOd2DfwOiFSbjeUgicgdFaqR8Z wt4RSoiDx6WqxlUTD7tomnRIuLKwyL02LFuKYbDpDxBNrAdiDXopQYKipCOJ3xyYrtFM 595ImNFWTMZ5Xd2QVkUf0MZqZv9mB91m97okzyllyUJfqecpwQKMJ4A2oKz4i+qFmX2p 07sUMMyRbR0JmlAgeGggXd6hUpC5RRyn31bzZInDclHI6rugaVXzx7Tb60JFBCz4/Z0V ofZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W1vRRiDU0oMJpLP8QprN+sXIKGDOX6qRo3t4W28ql7w=; b=mXtyXLELqK2H+1TiV7jjlFD7scB15tGpFY94NP+XbSXfXIUSpm73O60U19wy8L6Jut nbFzVdicLo6u80XMHKHc5zpW0g1APjT/n0sBfViBp+9o31oZ1jLeVh8UZqj0dcL1yN2W hxcFprTMnOsfRH3rPzAy4NwYP1Z9KyT5A09Emg2V2sFtXjl0bDt2TWePKTgWBmGUmcas pBlvE/G8BRdc78oymZdcl6NiClyteM86HEOUxII2JsuGEySo3C2+BzT+4xdafctFSzqH OTtY+VsLaSbF12+ivDts4rIKzGm0Oj9ipLsXd/CKpfx1y+ik6Cln7wf7lhdN/ueQVy0A Ltow== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohch5vBGPNLOVTLdszRdgcFR4D9EGI5eBTGdAfsZ8BlVdBzBOuJ BAw0JE4SF/wdKs9DFYPqClXIxv89MclqD726CYYbVk58 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63Y9c/1Pqx1W3k6iWDuJGI3bEUwHakHWX5fC7YFswFwuJSQC6FlBMF8mgFF/65AZ4P9QTKgqo6yeqqBrWlPde4= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr3226449itc.75.1538610169143; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 16:42:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> <1538609719357-0.post@n6.nabble.com> In-Reply-To: <1538609719357-0.post@n6.nabble.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:42:37 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Jakub Lach Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 23:42:50 -0000 Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on FreeBSD 12. Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well (specifically, they typically lack adequate memory). QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces. Warner On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach wrote: > I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PCs. > Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 3 23:45:30 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6E110B1433 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:45:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x12c.google.com (mail-it1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F6A4756D4 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:45:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id i76-v6so11526652ita.3 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 16:45:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W6ev6f2ylRREX9su2Iox/0JPK0JFEF8iFSfU76NmH6o=; b=nHqsei9CU7S6ZKdqm/vCdmsmU94V6nYKl9+b789UTQfPyWXgbS5+cBoWWmqfq2dko5 d1jygCYBWGRTz6zAQrqkgVIJHr6jL1bGxD9V3VWCTwZs5MuGev+kUd4yTmEPMVu1ekOE ZtFqtcrflncRD18+CfFLSXxa+vNwqj5Hc9Gqpy1t8cK1GXwTEIv7CTkiTzhBf1bK+lX4 Km3MN964yXeSR+4HtsIuqvEkWML0hx8RnJlAXoMQv9lBMs1YOsxN4A9oXbJ5hh8qryqD DLfQZu7RCNoKGektQBT1C5AfJfKNQuL2dU50I7/ksEpqyrP98lYBz3+lzzI4XBKPpUDo iWqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W6ev6f2ylRREX9su2Iox/0JPK0JFEF8iFSfU76NmH6o=; b=pz/a3ZxH7HHSH2fPpbz/d/rXCDuij3tM40C703PQ92tuqe/W7TQUQk9nwIJDOutm5S kXLuLS4GJb0iUjViSeDxxVXyiuwOyb9dlLH3tUAH8KsDb/NrMrIoyrjs7o97B3mT+mza KYBbVlCAkCC8Ja6AsM/w61f2d3+KQYjOCjmad5kBHO978AjHQk2XT0ME/cPqxVjtNIlz z2IqGuOyLr5Rll+P0Q47Vte109aWO14DTZUEhkFmr5FVX5t/Wr+0sMjglnDLLt8TfwTO 13flZYwfZ+5U2SKtmpzqgOKNSWRWXtKh4uMIbzmQWnmxw2qo8DNAD5pR33PZdT9d9nyD KXUw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoiqjhQ3eTLF4fjHtE5xsHtzIn0e3e026CEDlCFyI6xbqiws1i30 9JeckfPVChkdM8pTuAPD07PIDsKx9tLXdB0aHQCfNFoF X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62RM4deqU2I8E20W1nk1Qp2c+OUx/lBVyZ1uq5NTBn9qXiQ2YvNxD+p36RHCk0Ya3k8x7cwGkGHOhHbLImQwjc= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr3231398itc.75.1538610329668; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 16:45:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> In-Reply-To: <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:45:18 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: fuz@fuz.su Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 23:45:30 -0000 On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker wrote: > I request that ed(4) How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface? QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000 series (em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 00:02:06 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5235010B1B54 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:02:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D811675D89 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:02:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 7r5Ygo0BSWppD7r5agnWH5; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 18:01:59 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=YIcrNiOx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=9I5xiGouAAAA:8 a=o9wl_EvMZ6t8q0DHStoA:9 a=KxB4Zd7y_loLyP7P:21 a=g8Km92vptL5RTwor:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=z_8v0CgUty0A:10 a=BMXLjGjH3vrTFAprE08A:9 a=zLYwCF4ZriuhGg4u:21 a=tk6U_UQ3hsH1Ow38:21 a=Edl-gG_6ss5TdQFi:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=ARFN2YZ7Uv8kHtb7LS-q:22 Received: from [25.170.208.187] (unknown [72.143.235.27]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 064BC523; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:03:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:01:56 -0700 To: Warner Losh , Jakub Lach CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfLNPFauoIjWq5imxI7eJde+AOchGI6TqUx5jIoKglPNUPS8mbyK1RUCaGasDfwBeQ+AzOqUVr/4jWCji/IUHssOxZiRfGczq3d9TgeL6GFVWVTgR3TCk FaEmj2Sw8LjR+oe9IJdBQA3z+FaCn/+/xmbWyXv0sPTg6hZnrmcyKqkUye3xaOY0HI13cPfzhI1K2KUWAz+dH/Jb2QQiI42utbJbe1BjxRab6/gJ+F6ybXft H0bNPI8YWdi4BdmPxMttkw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:02:06 -0000 I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move = rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware. Will this help? --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Warner Losh Sent: 03/10/2018 16:45 To: Jakub Lach Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on FreeBSD 12. Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well (specifically, they typically lack adequate memory). QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces. Warner On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach wrote: > I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PC= s. > Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.htm= l > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 00:09:23 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14D910B1DBE for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:09:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5071B75FD6 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:09:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id e12-v6so6500065iok.12 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 17:09:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aLxHzO6z5WzoMhyPY1tXkOm/67uChyPIl7YmS4vch9Y=; b=t4jSjp/+r1dtyLbIVnVg1BbepVPBscerElt+JenaZkpfmB6dv38yXI0EhNCwCzxXoY fqbXmR9C7Ri+0P6rWf5PL/P27pAHaY8SrljRXDm5t+Tc9fGem2OIsjPNfIXyybUBibsZ nrp+fHdbLi8hivYEHhRyF14ZT5E7c4Q/H8XuILq9/fwnsRN+kPMtGMEz3+PonctteqBm ANVR2m4ZSsqtS0sKiBm9FbfbT8ZVusO1p1Ax63oHApPhs6XDtMXPT8A07myzCzXjwZ4g Iz9I88J+ccpinhREcPgOjQXz2DxOd3k0vi2RXEYMg0qU5fN2HUB6x0QzfJ3E4SiYnkWI dahg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aLxHzO6z5WzoMhyPY1tXkOm/67uChyPIl7YmS4vch9Y=; b=VKswK+qYueuy//iH+7oRF4TWUJcyUTrk7XXBvcfuBUaBkI2R8bOdHuJj4el8ZO2UC3 LB0VeeawCvDYQaSZqJuQ+l4kEErORpj+oex6ZzLHn/KiB0Tysxu83QNyWLDKpECse6yN yWs0UUk6e2V/p9dLi6vxa5ndQbvbSYp4/NbDm2WFqyh6X/o+jRLXSasxzYbOcEgxRvZd HNt85QMwa6OzfwzGf1xtRDxkwtPZ/dRxxtWDydbYqrfm/WCXXjjNSzCmpHGfMQsMtpk7 jAc3lG+xtemZ9hGY+s1lUoEXlDrZzgxHokeH2e2kPsDP59SqBfEuuMR5T+1YQACA2xhy Zm2w== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogHXj6/1ySXjLmiYQ7ITvgGjyzYXS8wTfouJd7fAqymm9ZSCaTL iihSs3xzMkMyHOskVbhsP4G5gEH2Z2TjKEPFyU3PdRVD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62tSBQniWp1oQfrpAz0R+jcifkih9Cx1sKBNDkLV1JnFVBVRf/1P23cJ1JrLn0sfe/33X8JjlT+l/3b0GN/SEk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr2715153ioa.299.1538611761473; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 17:09:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> In-Reply-To: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:09:10 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Cy Schubert Cc: Jakub Lach , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:09:23 -0000 Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right? Warner On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert wrote: > I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move > rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware. > > Will this help? > > --- > Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. > Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. > Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. > > Cy Schubert > or > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > --- > ------------------------------ > From: Warner Losh > Sent: 03/10/2018 16:45 > To: Jakub Lach > Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The > requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on > FreeBSD 12. > > Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well > (specifically, they typically lack adequate memory). > > QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The > NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces. > > Warner > > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach wrote: > > > I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era > PCs. > > Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too. > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: > http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 00:15:41 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7958210B21C0 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:15:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0863C7654B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:15:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 7rImgJLNHwyxU7rIng9tYB; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 18:15:39 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NPJhBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=9I5xiGouAAAA:8 a=I6gMpJlUr38An2rD4ZkA:9 a=IXJQsTFNuGbRokNN:21 a=KJsGK8sC1fDLfyVC:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=z_8v0CgUty0A:10 a=teumYZLV22S0GJBW:21 a=xk5chF5tCWmEZzSg:21 a=7_ZR5OBMdNkaTm9E:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=ARFN2YZ7Uv8kHtb7LS-q:22 Received: from [25.170.208.187] (unknown [72.143.235.66]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C73856A; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:17:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:15:35 -0700 To: Warner Losh CC: Jakub Lach , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20181004001716.9C73856A@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCoJBnttov4dJho1RKhmRlhJyqwvXPCLCGT+VwPu2enbV9Yy2bJkHqxBfcJ1UfZ7TbUyKD+znAeJYJlHwCur0im5fgz7ooGPRezkXYPazUzDt9bkHLKi f3W7XqYdcb4A/7+98elZYBd+RB/D6HtR8YxSSytAfIRMPd2v7swexilxcLuQ4TgxlkxicM0hasvvn9ok1jp5aajBwMkTwBoND26uqVpGsuoZ1/hdEzrQ1gfw Ag3i+LwHo2D2Y9L5dJ40dg== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:15:41 -0000 Yup. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Warner Losh Sent: 03/10/2018 17:11 To: Cy Schubert Cc: Jakub Lach; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're r= unning FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right? Warner On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert wrot= e: I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move = rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware. Will this help? --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- From: Warner Losh Sent: 03/10/2018 16:45 To: Jakub Lach Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Do you have any machines running FreeBSD 12.0 with this interface? The requirement is that we have at least 5 real users of the interface on FreeBSD 12. Many of the P III era PCs aren't beefy enough to run FreeBSD very well (specifically, they typically lack adequate memory). QEMU also emulates newer NICs, so you wouldn't be left w/o a solution. The NE-2000 is still supported, as well E1000 (em/igb) interfaces. Warner On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Jakub Lach wrote: > I request to keep rl(4) as it's the standard ethernet card in PIII era PC= s. > Moreover, it's emulated by QEMU too. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.htm= l > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" = From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 00:21:15 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249D610B247A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:21:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from CAN01-TO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr670069.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDADC76707 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:YTOPR0101MB1353; H:YTOPR0101MB1820.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: uoguelph.ca does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: polua49Jn3F3R+otSBe2XLLNk9QVlzkdkT4/KKUSOhi2p9oRd1Y9hGK3+hry1EwAe6PlYfpvB+DijFxRUxJY4LMaKsNSir0jQn0Xz0N87Eb2ZKIiLeoWGtJb4ZxtHA3Uvca9LzVBoDAaVIakpL7mbHjOh3LqMVkv7BIdC0jiYU/D2G2iVMpwzQcdK0ZOUqOgiNwbqCuTg3OOUfA8FW6gmzaRe1cxXjJoNe+nSZRUI7Z5O7IX4pGmgfWLZgu7TmlAefalcMWFLGlZNMl2uRQqLN3bfNvfgx71396oHpBZEg3SKmQMNVyPhXOudvBZZ0Lc7/PK3M6Lbi92scIKVkww5fmOuxIyNhPE8qidGkezBJ8= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: uoguelph.ca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7d72d95b-6d6c-4344-1481-08d6298f4ae7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Oct 2018 00:21:13.2273 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: be62a12b-2cad-49a1-a5fa-85f4f3156a7d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: YTOPR0101MB1353 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:21:15 -0000 Warner Losh wrote: >Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're >running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right? > >Warner > >On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert >wrote: > >> I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to mo= ve >> rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware. >> >> Will this help? My main development machine has a bfe in it, so I will definitely be keeping a driver for it going. I don't care if it goes away from head/curre= nt. (I can leave the driver somewhere for anyone else that wants it, although I'm not a ports guy, so someone else would have to put it in ports.) The other box I run FreeBSD on is an fxp, so I'll be doing the same for it,= if/when it gets deleted. I find these machines work fine, but I don't do Z= FS. [stuff snipped] rick From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 00:34:08 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D478D10B287B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:34:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jakub_lach@mailplus.pl) Received: from n6.nabble.com (n6.nabble.com [162.255.23.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF0B76FE4 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:34:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jakub_lach@mailplus.pl) Received: from n6.nabble.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by n6.nabble.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666C29C5CC42 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:34:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:34:06 -0700 (MST) From: Jakub Lach To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1538613246359-0.post@n6.nabble.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> <1538609719357-0.post@n6.nabble.com> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:34:09 -0000 Thanks for all replies. I personally have one PIII-S system somewhere, as this CPU was relatively popular in certain applications, others might want to use it still. Regarding memory that's quite true of typical setup at the time, but Intel 440BX can use 1024MB, which should be ok. I would certainly like to update this system to something more recent time permitting, though I admit it has already felt behind and haven't seen anything like 11-STABLE or 12. -- Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-arch-f4152488.html From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 00:54:24 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5753F10B30D5 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD3E777921 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 00:54:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 7ruHgJW7QwyxU7ruIg9zak; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 18:54:22 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NPJhBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=UqCG9HQmAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=zx3pcVOHSrahllPZR38A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21F19621; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w940sKTH015563; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id w940sK3T015537; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201810040054.w940sK3T015537@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Rick Macklem cc: Warner Losh , Cy Schubert , Jakub Lach , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: Message from Rick Macklem of "Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:21:13 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 17:54:20 -0700 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDHNlx38R3K7A5KgqraRFP5kdcmdR74k6Dx4zf31V0kMC1oUm7mAgmm7bnLgzNH++tbxfcnKf7cx5aV7lBsvrdgH+XwcY9k9Y9uURuB/pznE4h0FMw9b ghm0AE38J9H1PWO8s2bwJfH025PaGL7a0U1VaP8Mh5HuJW5uqRyp3zRMxpdRxU8ObOtIDijy64XQEIb+lrvRo2qJIPWsZZayZbMBux1NB0fsOSAdDttht8lC BCuL7Tq7JTRLUyNxfBnRsxftPDDc4BiOlT0horT8/L0= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 00:54:24 -0000 In message , Rick Macklem writes: > Warner Losh wrote: > >Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're > >running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right? > > > >Warner > > > >On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:01 PM Cy Schubert > >wrote: > > > >> I have a laptop (used for i386 testing) with that NIC. The plan is to move > >> rl(4) to ports until I no longer need to test i386 on real hardware. > >> > >> Will this help? > My main development machine has a bfe in it, so I will definitely be > keeping a driver for it going. I don't care if it goes away from head/current > . > (I can leave the driver somewhere for anyone else that wants it, although > I'm not a ports guy, so someone else would have to put it in ports.) > The other box I run FreeBSD on is an fxp, so I'll be doing the same for it, i > f/when it gets deleted. I find these machines work fine, but I don't do ZFS. > [stuff snipped] Ahh, the old laptop used for i386 testing has had ZFS on it since I got it. Initially with only 768 MB RAM. It was the the one talked about in the ZFS tuning wiki. It's got more RAM now, still with ZFS and no special ZFS tuning except to reduce bshift to 13 and reduce the vdev cache to 5 MB. It'll probably become a hand-me-down for the grandkids when I teach them programming. Junior committers, hopefully. I'm sure they'll want something newer shortly later. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 02:18:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439F110B8C99 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C58547C9D9 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:18:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id z16-v6so6699192iol.6 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 19:18:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WDVKY5NNVaLuH5pOho/srP6BAVa1wlccKoqcl3gyCZ8=; b=fBPF8YXRrT/t4jjmRyhq4T0usgaUSnTEhjBIn8YCjZx/FT+EEyy672zhQ7xUTCMHlU PxMWssbmydbtAe825+jxXnZhVkDIA09lZLQrcl3GF10Szh0clmrGPoW07rYBdjqXlLbX ubtA6zCZFBTC+/+W+H5ryi3kKe/yIENPUDCsRKQxQj4ZL7cKdRqH4COeN+0sXyuvG6Nl feuvm9OYAJulSppBwVtCqeU3/J8P3GrR/Ejy2iq2HZZVfozSggwNnQJrqt3Va89OFsBQ xVL6EvrsV2btPGk+0BDzHqLS43SSanGRuUtFMN6vm2Jp7zNfwgMHU7Sq8XMjz/TWWDl3 yvKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WDVKY5NNVaLuH5pOho/srP6BAVa1wlccKoqcl3gyCZ8=; b=QAxRyWXQDkKEubo9RX8db10DysxfHkqsv1ucAl2QA4vaWhUqxQvvXKzyXM4iWHm7HE D/TKIvkZQBgiOtTFfIXiUdh6KvAYURSLLHmKUprdD7XhxH1ROEWbvtDz6lNWILcP3VHd Vls+9qkZNpsVDmhtoqmwOjazco372wyWyg5QHLm9m8+7qku87DDMKfWC+0CrEF9OfySv LoBWjdgRXeLTyzvzokjGqknrkLrxuMUe2X/bSdycINv4mYPHO/LxHGkpTSzFAARrHWsH HBSfvTufRIZ72CfjGx3HikB3oZIm5+1NDP5FO6ukKvwK70CfxguodaVqHnbhRbEuea+R l2tw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfog7pe7yWDHXGC7pAOVGnErgEegxfdGTkIu14Kzn6kD7+dQqiBOX hKqNS9VIf2G3XFc9D+iVS2HmpTRpSpFOkt2L/sePpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV60xNJ/pAJSlCBGc6SZKVxAAM6E9fKCDmyB7NLUYX/f5sWoUsBKhcybtMtWafGDWiNEnwnuqRmUyGFo3mx9KPKs= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr2926645ioa.299.1538619506064; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 19:18:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810040121.w941Lwcg003883@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810040121.w941Lwcg003883@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 20:18:15 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 02:18:27 -0000 On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 7:58 PM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > Since when did a FCP become a core only process???? Why was this > dicussed within core and not within the larger community? > Core hasn't approved this FCP, we're in the community discussion phase now. If you have substantive comments, please comment. It's a proposal, and it's being discussed now. > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > I am going to strongly object to the whole thing, > as this is NOT how the FCP process is suppose to work it > is not for core to dictate this type of policy to > the developers. > We've just started the process. The FCP is a draft for discussion. Core hasn't approved it, since there's no discussion to look at to weigh what consensus might be and add whatever oversight we may need to. The conversation has just started. Warner > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > > > The criteria for exception are: > > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > > deemed satisfy the "popular" > > requirement. > > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform > usable. > > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > > > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. > > > > The full FCP-0101 is included below. > > > > -- Brooks > > > > --- > > authors: Brooks Davis > > state: feedback > > --- > > > > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > > > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before > > FreeBSD 13. > > > > ## Problem Statement > > > > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) > > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. > > > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > > > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). > > > > ## Proposed Solution > > > > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This > > will entail: > > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and > > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes > > to FreeBSD 12. > > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind > > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete > deprecated > > devices. > > > > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception > > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on > > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > > deemed satisfy the "popular" > > requirement. > > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform > usable. > > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > > > ### Exceptions to removal > > > > Device | Reason > > -------|------------------------------------------------- > > ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards > > fxp | Popular device long recommended by the project. > > dc | Popular device for CardBus card. > > hme | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. > > le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. > > sis | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641. > > vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards. > > xl | Popular device for CardBus card. > > > > Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round. > > > > ### Device to be removed > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > ## Final Disposition > > > > TBD > -- End of PGP section, PGP failed! > > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 01:22:02 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0C510B4AE9 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:22:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE42C797C1; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:22:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w941Lw1L003884; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w941Lwcg003883; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810040121.w941Lwcg003883@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> To: Brooks Davis Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:21:58 -0700 (PDT) CC: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 01:22:02 -0000 > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting Since when did a FCP become a core only process???? Why was this dicussed within core and not within the larger community? > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. I am going to strongly object to the whole thing, as this is NOT how the FCP process is suppose to work it is not for core to dictate this type of policy to the developers. > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. > > The full FCP-0101 is included below. > > -- Brooks > > --- > authors: Brooks Davis > state: feedback > --- > > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before > FreeBSD 13. > > ## Problem Statement > > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). > > ## Proposed Solution > > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes > to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated > devices. > > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > ### Exceptions to removal > > Device | Reason > -------|------------------------------------------------- > ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards > fxp | Popular device long recommended by the project. > dc | Popular device for CardBus card. > hme | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. > le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. > sis | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641. > vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards. > xl | Popular device for CardBus card. > > Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round. > > ### Device to be removed > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > ## Final Disposition > > TBD -- End of PGP section, PGP failed! -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 02:28:31 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D0A10B943A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:28:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kim@westryn.net) Received: from mail.westryn.net (mail.westryn.net [199.48.135.251]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66D6C7CE18 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:28:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kim@westryn.net) Received: from ice.westryn.net (225x169.ouraynet.com [204.16.225.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.westryn.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 694F29432CD; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 20:28:23 -0600 (MDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Kim Shrier In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 20:28:21 -0600 Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5E572684-1F25-4D74-BDBE-3EF1A9703A46@westryn.net> References: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 02:28:31 -0000 On Oct 3, 2018, at 6:09 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You're > running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right? > I am also using rl(4) on my home firewall machine. Yes, it is built out of ancient hardware but it works just fine. Are we up to 3? Kim From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 03:55:02 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C790910BE07B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 03:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x132.google.com (mail-it1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D71681338 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 03:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x132.google.com with SMTP id w200-v6so12113999itc.4 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 20:55:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iDgUf6i5k5ruUI10znJNt0NLIXG/kflw4IQj7gTedg8=; b=2K0DI0HN7vf4BNdbTnM24medu7n1es8T3JwIeJbg/nDhjpaaIJ8Fq3xjMy+hEsZ7x1 Nz55tKOha9vPUwW/zNf5caORCPJdOsu/Yk5pTiRnqJ0qeqlTvBfgy4dDbtqn85/OmGJm WOnWjyhDv8NM5/t+EP28laZMHqXS9d4xV+9mMNg+ws9qci1dM+2uepXCXWg/ptrScJBX iCeBt/KsjiXrzE72X3tIg8pI5kpAFOl44D9uNAb1aZle2mjEsYDe/Y3isB7HBFD30uNs OOwHE3R/lRp99M66hCdKCVycYlDja1/BftwHB97Z+OhEupUeHlW9qEtNg4/I98hby5FE J/pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iDgUf6i5k5ruUI10znJNt0NLIXG/kflw4IQj7gTedg8=; b=oDlbAACsBswlcD/PpjR59gIt4+atT6OR7ctCTMLcazggGO1Wc0ZdHJmdtsPZj9ZihB xegVgP7CA9d0/mHUimwCi31bkIxa1CSTjJRfC5fWoXDFUjFKg7Y4WumrSjSCvQCjiOIN vYxiYSZfPDjLbHzyYk6IddUPl/8WSXjNLEcbLjLAN28U3giLII3Mr09X1/CmNSbyBz+L TQklvBjpR0kwTveLB/5qov3pLFtqeHx8YRRiFxKSC6olJCvuPnqobuhYVBV7veaSsJb2 lleW26cftEu/eT3gpfqOzDw/ePsjfsbhAV3A0BAIuGi2XUmrOS/hFlFDLlixb8tpwiNt Bvtg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoh69YPgr4I56jkYqH6M/9FZAMNSZHdcEG6qjsTJShajH6/tgwW5 VP86VnlRaTfGI5uzg+zz71qyyswa1sSaDZgApkYldb/p X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61xx2AbLaeN6g+9VnJOkNoP9Ckk3JK4rbeIS6RDA4g037dj6bgC+zx0TzhRLfkcJmJfT0mnlC68lFkp+w4N9dU= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr3703205itc.75.1538625301654; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 20:55:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <5BB580FD.7010705@andyit.com.au> In-Reply-To: <5BB580FD.7010705@andyit.com.au> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:54:50 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Andy Farkas Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 03:55:03 -0000 On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:50 PM Andy Farkas wrote: > On 04/10/2018 07:05, Brooks Davis wrote: > >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > > > I do not see: > > de0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 > ether 00:00:c0:bf:6a:e4 > inet 172.22.2.34 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 172.22.2.47 > inet6 fe80::200:c0ff:febf:6ae4%de0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 > nd6 options=23 > media: Ethernet 10base2/BNC > status: active > > on the list. > > FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p5 #0: Thu Jun 30 03:52:15 UTC 2016 > (yes, a very old version, but you know.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it) > Are you planning on upgrading? de should have been on the list to go.... Its a fairly uncommon NIC.... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 04:03:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5731F10BE969 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 04:03:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.wilcox-tech.com [45.32.83.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.wilcox-tech.com", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C518D81C06 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 04:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: (qmail 30711 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2018 04:03:53 -0000 Received: from 99-50-40-94.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net (HELO ?192.168.1.99?) (awilcox@wilcox-tech.com@99.50.40.94) by mail.wilcox-tech.com with ESMTPA; 4 Oct 2018 04:03:53 -0000 Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> From: "A. Wilcox" Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <81f48455-830e-ece0-57cd-68428a20a62b@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:04:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux ppc64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Sn26lF6mCFWXYcZjZgplRAYuxHvDtZb3m" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 04:03:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Sn26lF6mCFWXYcZjZgplRAYuxHvDtZb3m Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UxgNmZ1QRHKbjkZhVbQ07UsWL8S7NUTZH"; protected-headers="v1" From: "A. Wilcox" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <81f48455-830e-ece0-57cd-68428a20a62b@Wilcox-Tech.com> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> --UxgNmZ1QRHKbjkZhVbQ07UsWL8S7NUTZH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/03/18 16:05, Brooks Davis wrote: > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. Th= is > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and= > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those change= s > to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2019) Remind > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete depre= cated > devices. [ ... ] > For a device to be placed on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: [ ... ] > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) So, does that mean that the window for porting to iflib is between now and January? Or would the driver need to be ported before the FCP is passed? Sorry, just wondering for clarification's sake, since I have a pcn and rl hanging around and if I have any free time I could potentially look at porting, if that'd help. --arw --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python) https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/ --UxgNmZ1QRHKbjkZhVbQ07UsWL8S7NUTZH-- --Sn26lF6mCFWXYcZjZgplRAYuxHvDtZb3m Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEjNyWOYPU1SaTSMHHyynLUZIrnRQFAlu1kT4ACgkQyynLUZIr nRRBgBAAnE82oVdhg3ET7j+v69ZknaAcqgpGTDjdxzVKZcxo+tdhxM9mXSb7ni+O ejTAiHg5dzQg1OBX5kI0HK0jYBY6bIsim23iLY6n+9E9QW6E4TwmIKAJnW9JpHj6 i3+XBsWLgOqu0FK0YTw2EbPYzlfwqPxXKx57J20Oisg6LEc9a2PytaXiwHAm5jKQ ld6PVhB87Gqvrpt7Bb9uE4dqXPNx65yFIsGclvMSjXOPj+y+Ov5sTEs9jJjBg2rt Dll31I3rZys+r88uGUtERTHtijlyMtDAgtYj1xXzJ9SrS9NicYhvqWe56GfQiy47 VksM38xN/oVe3vqE5QKVwcshTru0vwrHVB/5AkGpr7l3kuvq3OPb658fXqrojDcR btYhBjmfl0ba25o+m3m+2TEk5zTA+VXR3prjgACBpphzwq2ygnYtktP3oL/UqeNw sgzLIRor8BsSCOHJlTKrqVGc9J1TzidJwg+GRIEUp3rAh0efHFkWewcjdk0o+YLs F3zq/hrAneZ18k8nAEWbNmn+YyzpfIjBJ70pWmQHtLb3Sn95gyMCaXzvG1TkBPY1 llZAHD3atfNANjLwlldtTDmWxjruXTMcDeckEYnQOuQjQwVJEYvumL6DYl56YoDr 7xWFNVP8EigK6SZkq+axLuycs7J+9KfBh4+DLpzz4G/8Jp+6g/c= =e2rq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sn26lF6mCFWXYcZjZgplRAYuxHvDtZb3m-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 02:55:36 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE20E10BAD31 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:55:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andyf@andyit.com.au) Received: from alpine.spintel.net.au (alpine.spintel.net.au [IPv6:2407:e400:1::b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44F9E7E0F5 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:55:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andyf@andyit.com.au) Received: from drunkfish.andyit.com.au (210-1-210-40-cpe.spintel.net.au [210.1.210.40]) by alpine.spintel.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72EF04C2728 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:54:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from snuggles.andyit.com.au (snuggles.andyit.com.au [172.22.2.2]) by drunkfish.andyit.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w942srrY067606 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:54:55 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from andyf@andyit.com.au) Message-ID: <5BB580FD.7010705@andyit.com.au> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:54:53 +1000 From: Andy Farkas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 02:55:37 -0000 On 04/10/2018 07:05, Brooks Davis wrote: >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > I do not see: de0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 ether 00:00:c0:bf:6a:e4 inet 172.22.2.34 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 172.22.2.47 inet6 fe80::200:c0ff:febf:6ae4%de0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 nd6 options=23 media: Ethernet 10base2/BNC status: active on the list. FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p5 #0: Thu Jun 30 03:52:15 UTC 2016 (yes, a very old version, but you know.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it) -andyf From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 03:56:37 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FF810BE1A8 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 03:56:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.wilcox-tech.com [45.32.83.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.wilcox-tech.com", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB06E81457 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 03:56:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: (qmail 30529 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2018 03:49:51 -0000 Received: from 99-50-40-94.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net (HELO ?192.168.1.99?) (awilcox@wilcox-tech.com@99.50.40.94) by mail.wilcox-tech.com with ESMTPA; 4 Oct 2018 03:49:51 -0000 Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> <5E572684-1F25-4D74-BDBE-3EF1A9703A46@westryn.net> From: "A. Wilcox" Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <2a90e8e7-1ef9-491f-c548-b9c8728e1db0@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 22:50:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux ppc64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5E572684-1F25-4D74-BDBE-3EF1A9703A46@westryn.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="omvTS7clavXoZ7EmONTjWDv5LK7NKHlJV" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 03:56:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --omvTS7clavXoZ7EmONTjWDv5LK7NKHlJV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ZAE1iIz3Xt9R2twSSxOlEERr0Andopl8l"; protected-headers="v1" From: "A. Wilcox" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <2a90e8e7-1ef9-491f-c548-b9c8728e1db0@Wilcox-Tech.com> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers References: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> <5E572684-1F25-4D74-BDBE-3EF1A9703A46@westryn.net> In-Reply-To: <5E572684-1F25-4D74-BDBE-3EF1A9703A46@westryn.net> --ZAE1iIz3Xt9R2twSSxOlEERr0Andopl8l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/03/18 21:28, Kim Shrier wrote: > On Oct 3, 2018, at 6:09 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Well, we're at 1 maybe 2 now. Only 3 more to go for a reprieve. :) You= 're >> running FreeBSD-current on that i386 laptop, right? >> >=20 > I am also using rl(4) on my home firewall machine. Yes, it is built ou= t of > ancient hardware but it works just fine. >=20 > Are we up to 3? >=20 > Kim I have three machines left that run FreeBSD. One has 1x hme (which seems safe), one 2x rl (which hopefully may be safe), and the last has 1x pcn 1x ed (ouch! this one probably will end up going to NetBSD). They all run 11, only because none of them are up to the task of building current. Plans to upgrade to 12 over the US November holiday times have already been made. Funny enough, I've been looking at bringing up a FreeBSD machine or two for PowerPC work, so that number may go up to four or five. I believe all my PowerPCs capable of booting FreeBSD have gigE, however, so no issues are likely. --arw --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python) https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/ --ZAE1iIz3Xt9R2twSSxOlEERr0Andopl8l-- --omvTS7clavXoZ7EmONTjWDv5LK7NKHlJV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEjNyWOYPU1SaTSMHHyynLUZIrnRQFAlu1jfQACgkQyynLUZIr nRTlfQ/+JzOx3yqzvj4U+d/AyghPvpk/SY8/u9cvDAk+ZnU54iCkM035iaakgnfJ U7PECqjkLKs09Sb0qtLQmJ1Q4ORl2AC4fC0/uvN8YlcpziYzMTpr9dii7yfMXOKq DRtn9inKtSiR+dAj+MZU+14b+BrcdmX2X35tGBsZTGaFLqSGtP4xf231UEraa/GV PO79lRQJK1XUMUNw1NBWanVm+BogA6h4cM1DxzSkdZAJx8238uzoJcz/KOUoz+bv DMD50Ip9e0bEvAxNb2XngCV/Wt5bWIR+A9OsnXvByrdqhEY4HdVJFnT9SNfFI+7T yHDttslkoA6sL/PdfmZclTDLHfsFVeRVg7knnnzvORx3ukxidTe8U8Y9D/0h+vFq cWYNDQG7xOPOXHfa1urVSsKCMgYOz5W5nsPEDSh+CdulHTboSpaRcTBrsuHMqGKC Lx0W75Tl3RpKnj+XqwPnlPBwc1o56BqypYi2w9qxyILT4MCjOM8LWjPoGU4cHoXF lC9vfxhgr4jKK/65EjpfuwMrQep47+qA7SPXD2l1v57sQwXQjzR3S2PWz/U4Afn8 VoEpwXVpPPJjpYA2SGhE04vKwhzJ0XKjs682ZCrGE8Uq9OocJOLmKPLrmx3S8ANf 9cGq8Zmvttl+Uwy+VWOMa3IAM91Yd6ENPTE/OWOdZHBY+G+NEMM= =LMzw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --omvTS7clavXoZ7EmONTjWDv5LK7NKHlJV-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 05:25:26 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A2A10C0477 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:25:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andyf@andyit.com.au) Received: from alpine.spintel.net.au (alpine.spintel.net.au [IPv6:2407:e400:1::b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD3758396C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:25:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andyf@andyit.com.au) Received: from drunkfish.andyit.com.au (210-1-210-40-cpe.spintel.net.au [210.1.210.40]) by alpine.spintel.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B1254C272B; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:24:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from snuggles.andyit.com.au (snuggles.andyit.com.au [172.22.2.2]) by drunkfish.andyit.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w945OrMx086972; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:24:53 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from andyf@andyit.com.au) Message-ID: <5BB5A425.1060006@andyit.com.au> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:24:53 +1000 From: Andy Farkas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <5BB580FD.7010705@andyit.com.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 05:25:26 -0000 On 04/10/2018 13:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:50 PM Andy Farkas > wrote: > > On 04/10/2018 07:05, Brooks Davis wrote: > >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > > > I do not see: > > de0: flags=8843 metric 0 > mtu 1500 > ether 00:00:c0:bf:6a:e4 > inet 172.22.2.34 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 172.22.2.47 > inet6 fe80::200:c0ff:febf:6ae4%de0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 > nd6 options=23 > media: Ethernet 10base2/BNC > status: active > > on the list. > > FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p5 #0: Thu Jun 30 03:52:15 UTC 2016 > (yes, a very old version, but you know.... if it ain't broke, > don't fix it) > > > Are you planning on upgrading? > > de should have been on the list to go.... Its a fairly uncommon NIC.... > > I guess I won't be upgrading. I tried, but PC-BSD won't update anymore. I use this box to MOP boot my Vaxen, with tftp and bootparamd. NetBSD is looking like the option for me. -andyf From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 05:40:03 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9FD10C0867 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:40:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9929B83DF1 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id z16-v6so6950235iol.6 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:40:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=doK5bsD5AzZSgst+AogoNMn+k1jiPinub6cFobQHzyo=; b=IdVNbAfLrqNJYR/ela9ZAozXMmV34talxZxIJ06bpRUYl08oQAE73RcefHnX/C8dU2 z3vtaePvishZ4/GUsq7Onirr+KXnfq194ZZs3+tJYj9QrFS4VDFJBTnJQsrow5oYkmZc gQ6eokHGm14vWJlVan6fZzcCYFF+sbqmhtIrVoHBqUCrUNQ9+32fnUiwly9JDjnrC5Rp +PJ9GfRUzE6bQH/zXSXGmZe7KQ0N8BIJuo8gPuXZtshtM1HXm8k1p5DPG0MF5QyfK8Y5 1OY1O3VuVWPhkQAM6sISwkmPvWww0N7BAXK1JGIzFxMO7a0WD0bZ2ibr9jwDwxfU04CT pivA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=doK5bsD5AzZSgst+AogoNMn+k1jiPinub6cFobQHzyo=; b=ChioiLbDisHfNFs5LJhRlu3WhUHK5XBaW5w3CKfBp9ZNTL3B72lEtSk01K89HHAlEJ Vp5tbMC4DDiulFaGsSqOVhQ/zhkRNaT5QUrYxq/WoPzBsckBplDwpAxtA8/FdN/NlwIz axJIvfpYLoFQOtbJJe+AritgFDgRUZAiiLRPGhnqF8PGt2iRmMMFP0E6szgvGu9q15KR IQKmcImIWJ2/PNF1fU46OePTGF81+D9gKCeXLXy+NyR4Tq/myQ6FWGScuhTziyYVj2mv rHN2T3Dus8oS+8qZxUvptqcoPxeLmh03LuEWuCueFrJpenhGvjjq4UfQQE4neAFXIZlv JyVA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogRMWs6fxhaJkEK+5rvb6Emegt/KgUp/fWlP8VO8sBKcSOaJqat cpeJo3QJl0Aw5FXIOxVugy2y983QTdeuHoFGYjexxROz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63LYxYPQ7I9Yf1U1TpHyVmwCszs45G7SETCep+fhsZoEIcBp0Z3N2JanwoF9bQTw5d6TDwm7P3uUsNgUqLhCw0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr3232826ioa.299.1538631601834; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:40:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <81f48455-830e-ece0-57cd-68428a20a62b@Wilcox-Tech.com> In-Reply-To: <81f48455-830e-ece0-57cd-68428a20a62b@Wilcox-Tech.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:39:50 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Anna Wilcox Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 05:40:03 -0000 On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 10:05 PM A. Wilcox wrote: > So, does that mean that the window for porting to iflib is between now > and January? Or would the driver need to be ported before the FCP is > passed? > I believe the notion was between now and the removal time. > Sorry, just wondering for clarification's sake, since I have a pcn and > rl hanging around and if I have any free time I could potentially look > at porting, if that'd help. > That would be awesome. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 06:03:22 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F11110C124D; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:03:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from hz.grosbein.net (hz.grosbein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:d12:604::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hz.grosbein.net", Issuer "hz.grosbein.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D854C84DCF; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:03:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from eg.sd.rdtc.ru (eg.sd.rdtc.ru [IPv6:2a03:3100:c:13:0:0:0:5]) by hz.grosbein.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94638ZY001523 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:03:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) X-Envelope-From: eugen@grosbein.net X-Envelope-To: brooks@freebsd.org Received: from [10.58.0.4] ([10.58.0.4]) by eg.sd.rdtc.ru (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94637vj087882 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:03:07 +0700 (+07) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Cc: "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" From: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:03:01 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,LOCAL_FROM,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Report: * -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record * 2.6 LOCAL_FROM From my domains X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on hz.grosbein.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:03:22 -0000 04.10.2018 4:05, Brooks Davis wrote: >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl "fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose. While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about removal of ste(4) and especially rl(4). These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs sold in enourmous values in certain markets by vendors like D-Link and TP-Link using various trade names. Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I suppose. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 06:51:26 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97AEA10C1EC0 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:51:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@vnode.se) Received: from oden.vnode.se (oden.vnode.se [IPv6:2001:19f0:6c01:6b7:5400:1ff:fe33:16b1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "oden.vnode.se", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C1F0861A7; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:51:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@vnode.se) Received: from ymer.vnode.se (62-20-154-136-no280.tbcn.telia.com [62.20.154.136]) by oden.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C7C31F62B; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:51:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:51:17 +0200 From: Joel Dahl To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004065116.GA3612@ymer.vnode.se> Mail-Followup-To: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:51:26 -0000 On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe I have several of these nics, some used in machines running FreeBSD 10 or 11 and a few just laying around as spare. Please keep the following drivers: ae bfe ed pcn rl vx Most machines will be upgraded to 12+ in the future. (I actually have 9 machines with rl nics so I think they are quite common still)... -- Joel From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 07:51:05 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F7A10C326A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:51:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A31E788923 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:51:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w947omnH003633 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:50:52 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua w947omnH003633 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w947okaR003632; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:50:46 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:50:46 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004075046.GA5335@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20181004000338.064BC523@spqr.komquats.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on tom.home X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 07:51:05 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:21:13AM +0000, Rick Macklem wrote: > My main development machine has a bfe in it, so I will definitely be > keeping a driver for it going. I don't care if it goes away from head/current. > (I can leave the driver somewhere for anyone else that wants it, although I have CoreM/1.5G laptop which netboots whatever I need for testing, the machine has bfe in it. It is i386 machine, this is Cores which did not yet have long mode. The machine is one of my bare metal i386 crash boxes. Am I qualified ? Anyway, count of 5 looks quite arbitrary. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 08:44:12 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E04A10C4AD7; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:44:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5DAB8A8A5; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:44:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1033) id 81F071E8BF; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:44:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:44:11 +0000 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.5 (2018-04-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:44:12 -0000 On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 Holy shit! OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs are in fact 100. > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly is the burden here? Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff? We offer probably the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink one of the few areas where we shine. WTF?! > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers. My home router uses sf(4) happily. It's a dual-port card and I don't want to look for expensive and completely needless replacement. Other people have already told you about ed/rl/etc. > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10. So how about making this proposal cover only 10 cards, if you can't resist the itch to remove something from the tree? ./danfe From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 09:41:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6A410C6281; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:41:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-stable@sentry.org) Received: from shadow.sentry.org (shadow.sentry.org [210.8.237.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "shadow.sentry.org", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FD2D8C87F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-stable@sentry.org) Received: from shadow.sentry.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shadow.sentry.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w949S6MX080717; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:28:06 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from freebsd-stable@sentry.org) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> From: Trev Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:28:06 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.49.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (shadow.sentry.org [0.0.0.0]); Thu, 04 Oct 2018 19:28:06 +1000 (AEST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:41:34 -0000 > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. Sill using my Asus EeePC 701 (just bought a new battery pack) for FreeBSD with ae nic (and I do not foresee discontinuing its use any time soon as its serial port comes in handy for talking to other serial devices). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 09:45:33 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F04510C64C7 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:45:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@trouble.is) Received: from weatherwax.trouble.is (weatherwax.trouble.is [IPv6:2a00:dd80:3c::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "weatherwax.trouble.is", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CF898CD2D for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:45:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@trouble.is) Received: from rincewind.trouble.is (rincewind.trouble.is [88.198.44.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "rincewind.trouble.is", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by weatherwax.trouble.is (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42Qp0X278yz3C1F for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:45:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by rincewind.trouble.is (Postfix, authenticated sender philip) id 42Qp0T5M2TzQqd; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:45:29 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=trouble.is; s=20180707; t=1538646330; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=kfRFjChjt1hv8n4SK2CcfABqlVn4sGCvC6J1P9427W8=; b=kbmXTBh82ZWkHDM9LJEP8ghq4MXpJ5wbZsDp6u7vwnb0Zkfqe0bKmHG+xoSdz73LgsoDGO gp1jO7kI+AGUqAn7gum1kVOIuPbFTEVQB0qHkUZ+MCOYgpkDSQfDk7BaCdmyOu670MCwNi +YIBCMuPV0AttchobKERLDPvxHoBQXxtV7WpjHLIuJ3smh42s9ztI2Hq4tOGziz9tUg4dC jGd9bubQqoaMg/yY9v3V0sJzzxJ4zRlvf/2ZfBypIReq3ShTlcgzYbffFj8JaU+R6ehKXT LWpdIB6UapXFp1c7Z0RIpk4SAwKlTpWwGnmQVfJlPHkZDHbV1ljGeYWeLaWwtg== From: "Philip Paeps" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:45:26 +0200 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12r5533) Message-ID: <6DAC6D29-EBA7-439F-B18A-A982CD0118DA@trouble.is> In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:45:33 -0000 On 2018-10-03 23:05:16 (+0200), Brooks Davis wrote: >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD > 12 and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining > and improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl ae is still popular in many cheap Asian laptops (Asus, Acer, etc). rl is still popular in many cheap PCI adapters. I've not encountered any of the others in a very long time. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 10:07:05 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1599310C6F09 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:07:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from ravenloft.kiev.ua (ravenloft.kiev.ua [94.244.131.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA5AA8DC8C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:07:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:06:56 +0200 From: Alex Kozlov To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004100656.GA95703@ravenloft.kiev.ua> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <6DAC6D29-EBA7-439F-B18A-A982CD0118DA@trouble.is> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6DAC6D29-EBA7-439F-B18A-A982CD0118DA@trouble.is> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:07:05 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:45:26AM +0200, Philip Paeps wrote: > On 2018-10-03 23:05:16 (+0200), Brooks Davis wrote: > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the core > > team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > ae is still popular in many cheap Asian laptops (Asus, Acer, etc). > rl is still popular in many cheap PCI adapters. +1 for ae and rl -- Alex From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 11:30:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D5A10A3A26; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:30:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5B8190D7C; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:30:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82562CD9; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 04 Oct 2018 07:30:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zyxst.net; h= from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=u 0/+4vTeyUtZEdHMOWufT0+0I+A2Wx9kDDPIjy9Z6F4=; b=03m9wIpuzTWydipnp O4u17hZGbdpHz2Yps0V0Saej05E/3CYyNk+b64fBomP3FSuslPtxy7q5Z39wT4MS wODvVnS6/UKv3GJVJxGRKXLlNNZHiEb/49i5VchShPkYTufAiKlJ+Q5yBnr+WYM7 JslPc5vDNOaDmnyUJJg3Q8VFzKcVLG15+LWu9dy0VNkCpE7YLrW2GRLk3lv/l87z pXB1QUc1fbFdVuLXZyrAPAzLk8zs3zfx5bTzVRUKm+ydqaBsARAftBAuao+/HDNS eVG5RAw/D5pnkP3XSFpFqf9/jsWOPmtvPGvhCmf3vxdQ+wQylJofl1tt0rcoDgwg FYqig== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=u0/+4vTeyUtZEdHMOWufT0+0I+A2Wx9kDDPIjy9Z6 F4=; b=tSF2dWqWsegvuri3VVbQQi7sccrOPc/1Uyln/r0TCp4cCI1gORxY2UNe1 p6Dg25c7vYJke0txGnUkSoRjWQNtv/8pWfDJ4RUUglPCH9Ab6b0uO6xMA4UWW4Gs dlyEFQthhHDXBp3XnDffYDzcyrXeFfZCCazOBR3FFCCsAzC+0sf+suAYjStgS7nx njxq3wMlFY9rc7m2Io9yA4/rke0vqYsBS4HrpxGl4RcAT9IfSppwDM6IGsLX/17Y CGrqkNaOwY1Gxt/XE5qIoUJ9pooZy21FW9H5Q8ft6SBB1Wib8B4VJAQ5c5Fgr+ya U9juHXMnnKubI19Arz9lCwe9LGUvA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.15] (parsley.growveg.org [82.70.91.97]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A1497102DE; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:30:45 -0400 (EDT) From: tech-lists Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Organization: zyxst.net Message-ID: <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:30:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:30:56 -0000 On 03/10/18 22:05, Brooks Davis wrote: > We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe Please do not remove rl. I have two rl interfaces in a machine built in 2011 still in daily use. One rl interface is an aftermarket card bought new in *2016*. The other one is built into the motherboard. That's just the stuff I personally own. rl is in lots of machines which will probably still be running a decade from now. I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. -- J. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:06:41 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F03010A6F55; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:06:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmt@burggraben.net) Received: from smtp.burggraben.net (smtp.burggraben.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:140:50a2::3:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ns.exwg.net", Issuer "Christoph Moench-Tegeder" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A144892A63; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:06:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmt@burggraben.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.burggraben.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF666002F6; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:06:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Scanned: by amavisd-new at exwg.net Received: from smtp.burggraben.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ns.burggraben.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id quPWIdgyPJfD; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:06:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elch.exwg.net (elch.exwg.net [IPv6:2001:470:7120:1:127b:44ff:fe4f:148d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "elch.exwg.net", Issuer "Christoph Moench-Tegeder" (verified OK)) by smtp.burggraben.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:06:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by elch.exwg.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CA8BB2733A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:06:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:06:26 +0200 From: Christoph Moench-Tegeder To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004120626.GA39489@elch.exwg.net> Mail-Followup-To: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brooks Davis , freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:06:41 -0000 ## Alexey Dokuchaev (danfe@FreeBSD.org): > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > Holy shit! OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't > seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > are in fact 100. Don't panic - they're talking about removing the 100 MBps NICS, not the 100 GBps NICs. Jokes aside - obviously there are very different populations of NICS. Here, the only 100MBps interface is in the IP phone, and I would guess that even most consumer hardware comes with a GBps interface on board (heck, even RPis have a GBit interface, even if can't use more than 30% of it's bandwith). Checking with a hardware-dealer: very few NICs in their catalog are 100MBps, most are gigabit-grade. I would have expected that things look different in the embedded world... On the other hand, some data centers I know routinely use 10GBps, and 1 GBps is considered "legacy" there. So, perceptions are very different... let's keep this rational and make a list of cards still in use. Regards, Christoph -- Spare Space From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:23:02 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9BD10A7C90 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:23:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schmiedgen@gmx.net) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BD7E936E1 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:23:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schmiedgen@gmx.net) Received: from [192.168.10.5] ([62.246.110.10]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MbbWD-1gOsiP0O3h-00J3Ce for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:22:52 +0200 Received: from [192.168.10.5] ([62.246.110.10]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MbbWD-1gOsiP0O3h-00J3Ce for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:22:52 +0200 Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> From: Michael Schmiedgen Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:22:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:LvVNPJRXyCjvYlIR4WheSnQXlklW2vxHJIO4FFiK/vDmzYhqYFr ocRdzFYe0BKVtujeKLTfow6opCzBGG5cLGmKNcayc2ZZxo25A1RT0Cni5mpxPn7ic5Vj5hY aWQoG2tIfdsTLQ3pQaDqL24D+7ZqVVlR+pMqMagbAVTFRZE3EYTz6om/9XEHrpUXLJNsyjW Y4qTka/WeU6A5X8pnzCzg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:JDq9HAS6ujk=:SmLMiz1R/dzMFbe4bkpB8N oTU24r8fTpj08MFM+nIry/j1a4VTXIdYgF1peRg1aYv8BMVpaKBLejJV+ZnUBxttwOJ+z3CBG gFZgrhCFEO4gE1U2ztCoo2QPhz8uxVK1wFXkUgabxxr/8T5nerWHAJjwVn6bHxixAxocATjGZ jA5iLoCDYsmm4CtGV1OAHrMQRrLiIv+fa09g/AfE727+Pt0RrVM1HbNwr351dBtXS736xMt1/ 4OwcJqHDnaw9qXRzKWFHbBboJSMlqWMqv1w4lTLwNpVQciDaQoKahOvA6rMMPyg8SUFiS4U8v vudL//exHSkrRoQNWua72dDSVn1VjJ7YY8SW6LPWopNNXXUz6W1KpP8hOmyJWnoLOoX1IR55D Gu+oGv2Dl91I+IaGCANammrgg0FJ/9hvjEHTCcGa1vv8SQDcfXW2ef2chkRC/S5i3ge3AjBUY X1guFTvygHMcWAJWZQ++6fb4rAXWZLxuvu/TONtxAVryFtpXpAtyiwM9T7Hc5ZV1DHE2Pb0H+ l3Worl6ykC8gUAF2NT9cgnLxQiVC1GM/9IjvCcLm64pOu6ha83uVipVxkmQaqVZhQclR7/JF5 ITlda3EoI6H1fmraIQhfi2Rp1FwctzsMUyhbIR/d/fNXw6RI/3mdoi7Gp9E7XMBZaFWrhaE+q 64aVYorIRcqDQedhUYMF5/SigJAq39X4wjiqoVmyYXUny+isXau6TiMn1YP3sjs3vH2TYAYvP Npe8YhS8EYxws9Fe1It7oBEaZgdsNDhvt/CucrfoD3WwyBpCdDsKinAVe8BOoP5k+80l5W9Ca DMAnmP2vBV3uXhGGxQIkh0pmfNIKMQQ2wYtJ0ONE9LJlrjFTYQ= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:23:02 -0000 > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > I have vr(4) on my PCEngines APU board, so good to keep it. But I am rather surprised that you want to remove ed(4) and rl(4), because I have seen lots of them over the years, and I can imagine that these are built into even not-so-old cheapo NICs and boards. Michael From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:29:01 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0967D10A805B; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:29:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vterziev@gvcgroup.com) Received: from mgate03.itsfogo.com (mgate03.itsfogo.com [195.72.134.149]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.itsfogo.com", Issuer "Thawte RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83C6693A9E; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:29:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vterziev@gvcgroup.com) From: Vladimir Terziev To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" CC: Brooks Davis , Eugene Grosbein Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Thread-Topic: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Thread-Index: AQHUW1z8oQomlAn8e0yTY1T+r3ZBB6UOd46AgABnmwA= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:13:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> In-Reply-To: <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) x-originating-ip: [10.138.239.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:29:01 -0000 I also call for keeping of the ste(4) driver. We use several 4-head D-Link DFE-580TX cards. Removing their support would = incur serious expenses for us for replacement hardware. > On 4 Oct 2018, at 09:03, Eugene Grosbein wrote: >=20 > 04.10.2018 4:05, Brooks Davis wrote: >=20 >>>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< >>=20 >> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) >> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 >> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and >> improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the >> core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting >> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. >>=20 >> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: >>=20 >> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, >> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe >>=20 >> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: >>=20 >> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl >=20 > "fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose. >=20 > While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about remo= val of ste(4) and especially rl(4). > These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs sold in enourmous values in cer= tain markets > by vendors like D-Link and TP-Link using various trade names. >=20 > Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I = suppose. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-net@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-net-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:35:20 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A6D10A850A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:35:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83199407F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:35:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from next.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8EE8846; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:35:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by next.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 06A59B660; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:35:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> (Alexey Dokuchaev's message of "Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:44:11 +0000") References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (berkeley-unix) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:35:18 +0200 Message-ID: <86va6h7uux.fsf@next.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:35:20 -0000 Alexey Dokuchaev writes: > Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. Please do not confuse =E2=80=9Cnobody is maintaining them=E2=80=9D with =E2= =80=9Cthey don't need maintenance=E2=80=9D, because they do. And please assume good faith. Broo= ks asked for people to speak up if they care about some of the drivers he proposed to remove; all you had to do was say =E2=80=9CI still use this dri= ver=E2=80=9D. There was no need to attack him, much less to swear. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:48:48 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9185010A8EB4 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:48:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clbuisson@orange.fr) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp03.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.125]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Bizanga Labs SMTP Client Certificate", Issuer "Bizanga Labs CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1083B94B2A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:48:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clbuisson@orange.fr) Received: from localhost ([109.222.128.105]) by mwinf5d57 with ME id jQoe1y0072GahT903QoeEb; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:48:39 +0200 X-ME-Helo: localhost X-ME-Auth: Y2xidWlzc29uQHdhbmFkb28uZnI= X-ME-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:48:39 +0200 X-ME-IP: 109.222.128.105 Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> From: Claude Buisson Message-ID: <5228bc9f-f6e3-50c2-4555-f4220b0f3ab9@orange.fr> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:48:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:48:48 -0000 On 10/03/2018 23:05, Brooks Davis wrote: >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > Of these, I still use: bfe CBu From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:49:55 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A17610A8FE8; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (baobab.bilink.net [212.45.144.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD54694C5F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:49:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42Qt574NgSz1ftWX; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:49:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.mcs.it (hermes.mcs.it [192.168.132.21]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42Qt573dbmz1ftWT; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:49:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mordeus (unknown [192.168.45.6]) by hermes.mcs.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C5E23949; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:49:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:49:47 +0200 From: Luciano Mannucci To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.3) X-Face: 4qPv4GNcD; h<7Q/sK>+GqF4=CR@KmnPkSmwd+#%\F`4yjKO3"C]p'z=(oWRnsYBQGM\5g:4skqQY0NnV'dM:Mm:^/_+I@a"; [-s=ogufdF"9ggQ'=y MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <42Qt573dbmz1ftWT@baobab.bilink.it> X-Virus-Scanned: PippoLillo, ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:49:55 -0000 On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:03:01 +0700 Eugene Grosbein wrote: > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > "fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose. > > While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about removal > of ste(4) and especially rl(4). These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs > sold in enourmous values in certain markets by vendors like D-Link and > TP-Link using various trade names. > > Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I > suppose. + 1 I have a lot of them in production systems. It would be a pity that they will never get a 12.x or newer version ever. I can replace few de cards but not everything... Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 12:58:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8698110A95BD for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:58:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x12d.google.com (mail-it1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E09F953D7 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:58:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id j81-v6so12925558ite.0 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 05:58:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BKTL4xuvcMBz4CQ2fA7FexX9P6hdEJMlWtmrnncI5Dg=; b=zczaN9fQVrFKbj6tugKh7CyQfZQ2hebFgp8LJ6rkr0NX7IxOuPxFD+n6GpqOdOKofY yupIdKpCBS1MdSbGC3DlhflCJhR4M4HA53/dg2iBqePvWDcJMmHNVZI59TOzST/Pc6P3 r0ap6aVhc69JNuKf9NDehCVj2QDR6L+4Dcd531Pf6nFRSNQEFGFleHuIIEdGqdL44VGh AyC/iAnTJ37Z+WkzRvc6+GdOhu4LszSeS+lk01V+Sj9QOtDubcz8riRZVEohFsEhr8vr /tmXuJCEGKAyV72MinmmA2Mq6fAH3t0OxrGmD3dF2oKQ0lgeHRylwSgi3QcB3gW29RAe pOyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BKTL4xuvcMBz4CQ2fA7FexX9P6hdEJMlWtmrnncI5Dg=; b=cmfa2WiuON9tuJlL/rYdiuZ2hV7oi/TWj8O1o0A4kGnSp02rYUpRoDf6LU8UQTArIb OSUxxuFjpoBet5sa9PKvjZOxUwvL0/sLKEzH5EfhQ22PLazRiqt1fZOrjPEa7rvvSo5F KrYTpkOl2GEXgsvLZxqtl0sMWMO5oGqNr5Ekxh4KasNfoaJXHqJSHAtCLtJ4p3MA6Kdj ZSkQOAoK7wjR5J2OhiQKitJgKDhRqLq8VuWgmzAv7QF6w+6I8i9LM22ymplaetb1KH5O 5OhpHB3eWTntunWaDWcTxhp9nymWI5sydb7GLTiErnCZH9dWZtEultMtngHBaZ43JvY8 3+Ag== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohin+PPfYTsL4V/L4cF/nP3ozkoqkI/Oj9OUX+xwK7fTL32nF/q nPHqBgQiu63tgKg+QH/KkUNtwZdKk+Uk8oL49oHZeQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61pi0fpl6iGGNnk8fsK1Cb6rS0EP2Ix7tsQbpGYbSajXL8/Wp/44XhhFTPEiIx7EJlIiarmxsyul7UDhPknNyg= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr4870923itc.75.1538657938275; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 05:58:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> <42Qt573dbmz1ftWT@baobab.bilink.it> In-Reply-To: <42Qt573dbmz1ftWT@baobab.bilink.it> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:58:47 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: luciano@vespaperitivo.it Cc: FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:58:59 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:53 AM Luciano Mannucci wrote: > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:03:01 +0700 > Eugene Grosbein wrote: > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > > > "fxpl" should have been "fxp" here, I suppose. > Yes. > > While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about > removal > > of ste(4) and especially rl(4). These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular NICs > > sold in enourmous values in certain markets by vendors like D-Link and > > TP-Link using various trade names. > Enough people are using rl that it's off the list by my count. > > Lack of support for such popular 100M cards won't be good for FreeBSD, I > > suppose. > > I have a lot of them in production systems. It would be a pity that they > will never get a 12.x or newer version ever. I can replace few de cards > but not everything... > To be clear, the proposal is that 12.x be the last branch they are supported in and not in 13. So while we'd remove them from current soon, they'd still be in 12 for the life of the 12.x branch, so into the early 2020's. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 13:07:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830F310A9A2F for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2C0E958ED for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id z16-v6so7818989iol.6 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:07:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9mIHULBX1kVwtTwodZcHYwSmmtg1NerNJ6YRELoeZbs=; b=mC9mykkocwqgYjG1HmWAop3WNmcXs+XzC52j83sF1JwIlSH/scLbKSFMPD/PsDLCMS FGa3isvhCmfGQHRJKb8QI55hupzsjwifTuPp6irEc+V99xi/pVwohtAV8z0PhwWB3mZ7 xj3KtClKF7uIEpuoMQjm0H+5e281892F0gcuptX2QUMPIJYdkRu4BLfgrgHRTwOZD/WK nNhU7VrMUc0KBY9kWhWSYJBjHE7CmxFHbgX922n2XzBL73DpydwGOLYTP6fNIZFQR0GZ 4glKio1n5lbZZvWNpLn3SlXLHJCt2Z7JIc71JsYxIGA2r7rgv/It6/T0pUvb+8S9bbvO x/qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9mIHULBX1kVwtTwodZcHYwSmmtg1NerNJ6YRELoeZbs=; b=S2StosoZqFxqj+Lmxym0SvsZpNCz22RsjC2fvLmbyPqoePXzdLUYH1s3CHDimf/sjz L8zW76AhuAapUo2ytgjd91ZWmtA+dLUO3tfnL7fnUG6o/4RanSpVWuy/6DY4MaRpOzwS nZYFpIqgORVAPOBxa2sg8lsigZLdspyMJdIt2nCq+AWW55rT6tyGFVkCeJLVJOrMon0D m13xFiZcZevEcf05ea1iZPQVwM+BanbxVfRlN2LtAbJpVadZZ1nxJztiuivXqs8s+uSp KeUyghMSUlsREH5W56uOkqnuinVo/68HRXuomfRCCzhszPcQ2bQV7Gi5vYp0reLlHB5z XFRA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojAX1GRYpcMS9FhYLDVro8ldrcQl7j+rWOb0PFKEXaSlXbx/50N lZ0RrRHMScdJr59d9GexlgFmzBwqwFo3xMJo6Xqtuw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV6248mDexwkUBIAGL9LrKwjM5xJbv162K5jpqnZafffvRm2Mlh1/tMaHrYBQRcyI6tE2SnUGAHv5EFLuRIl71UU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e715:: with SMTP id b21-v6mr4537243ioh.37.1538658474822; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 07:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:07:56 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:45 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly > is the burden here? > I believe that characterization is incorrect. There's a burden. And it's death of a thousand cuts. And many of those cuts have been inflicted on brooks@. Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the tree. I did a back of the envelope computation that this is on the order of hundreds of hours of time, spread across all the drivers over all the years we've supported them. Some of these drivers are clearly unused, and so that's 100% wasted effort. Most of these drivers are on machines that most likely won't be able to run 13.0 well when it comes out in 2 years due to increased memory demands that it will almost certainly have. The declining use means we anticipate that if we were to maintain them until 13, it would be wasted effort for at least some on the list. That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not dozens. At the root of this problem is the community's long resistance to having data reported back to the project data about the machines running FreeBSD. Absent any real and significant data, the only way to know if things are unused is to ask. We cannot have the act of merely asking cause people to freak out and hurl expletives all over the place. That's significantly not cool. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 13:59:51 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA6310AB5B1; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:59:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41ACC97B84; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:59:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109031483F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:59:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94DxmIW089561 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:59:48 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w94Dxlto089560; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:59:47 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Warner Losh cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Net , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <89558.1538661587.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:59:47 +0000 Message-ID: <89559.1538661587@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:59:51 -0000 -------- In message , Warner Losh writes: >Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over th= e >years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation >because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in th= e >tree. As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED! It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 14:26:41 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2840110AC4ED for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:26:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B018F70E8B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:26:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94EQcms072819 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:26:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w94EQcX4072818 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:26:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:26:38 +0200 From: Robert Clausecker To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004142638.GA72667@fuz.su> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:26:41 -0000 I have a machine with FreeBSD 2.2.8 running with such an interface, but none with FreeBSD 12, so you do have a point here. However, I am not sure if it's a good idea to kill this driver; it's good for over 100 different cards according to the man page, so surely there are some users left. Yours, Robert Clausecker On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 05:45:18PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > I request that ed(4) > > > How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface? > > QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000 series > (em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU. > > Warner -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 14:26:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A9810AC536; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:26:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [18.222.6.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0A9870EAB; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:26:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (unknown [18.188.142.31]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F052016E65; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:26:45 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:26:44 +0000 From: Mark Linimon To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:26:53 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > are in fact 100. Sigh. If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD. You can buy used core i5 laptops for around $20 if you shop around. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 14:38:52 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFC010ACC26; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from CAN01-TO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr670084.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.67.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F02F771656; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:38:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from YTOPR0101MB1820.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (52.132.44.160) by YTOPR0101MB1980.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (52.132.50.161) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1207.23; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:38:49 +0000 Received: from YTOPR0101MB1820.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::65af:417a:161f:f4eb]) by YTOPR0101MB1820.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::65af:417a:161f:f4eb%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1207.021; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:38:49 +0000 From: Rick Macklem To: Warner Losh , Alexey Dokuchaev CC: "freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Net , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Thread-Topic: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Thread-Index: AQHUW75rx+tO2i59GUe7XUN0ESb1HKUPDvyAgAAYPpE= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:38:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rmacklem@uoguelph.ca; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:YTOPR0101MB1980; H:YTOPR0101MB1820.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: uoguelph.ca does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: dUiyQ2ENIUTCNV/XbdypwGDzOVtIuOzFqyn2XBZRtT/adkv3RQjoRbq5D3CkAMr4oATDrDQg9Mqa1yQ9SiEuXudftgsq4jt6Hh81gYKKvg1BeMeH3SNIlZaUhOeebJZfymZarU85duc8XIu2yUf2/i5OPsyxnygBBsaK7fr/Cl5DBaZFSXckAOMu5IxE02Fq11lvBDGFlBLRXOu35HtbYpFy3icXOATqClKrXbq2XD666Hxhb7hjaaCCqmIFiWVqR4OqnHj38zdOgvJ6xYKCwmlL7IvVORNtGipz92gnYoV5JZ+951g/Bt3wRsDJQME5mxJ5P5MWo4m1FLIA0FeHrOgSlH42F2aLdtH4rgM7C4k= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: uoguelph.ca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f3cfb827-9c8d-42a7-de02-08d62a071946 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Oct 2018 14:38:49.6125 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: be62a12b-2cad-49a1-a5fa-85f4f3156a7d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: YTOPR0101MB1980 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:38:52 -0000 Warner Losh wrote: [lots of stuff snipped] >That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to >iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, >common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not >dozens. I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both. Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted, so I can see what needs to be done? Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree. [more stuff snipped] rick From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 14:40:12 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0644D10ACD52; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:40:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABE727183D; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:40:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1033) id A3C634C48; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:40:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:40:11 +0000 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Mark Linimon Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004144011.GA70537@FreeBSD.org> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.5 (2018-04-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:40:12 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:26:44PM +0000, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen > > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > > are in fact 100. > > Sigh. If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in > 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD. I don't quite understand why are you grouping 10/100 vs. 1000 rather than 10 vs. 100/1000. ./danfe From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 14:40:32 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54F210ACDEB for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:40:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd41.google.com (mail-io1-xd41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45B0271892 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:40:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd41.google.com with SMTP id x26-v6so8068427iog.11 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 07:40:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LkziUTj8zMkhYNInm0s1stIVGTnQCjeGBy8IeWzl/R4=; b=QG4cf20BsAEKLUPjSumFM5IxUwDJ94auIsVzS+BULDZnYn6YYb1fJQwc5t6YWBokNa 53PxVTeuOPJhxLR4yCc5eYnBokIrHMyGSrTaN4AwzPpLhEREOhZYRzoH3x69361j/1wj YLcT8KAInY6FSN8cwSsbK0QdBkk5KSBKBEhmNKvZUiTnf0tgjxN3Iqv9PAoHmCDIThBD yMHQL8HEFjBrRWafaQiZZL0jq3KaeTpVmO41IgtsoBfOczSqX4q7K05kk+16qVTs1dRK 1F0FdSTTfDmGXEuCkErv2rxM+AOXQc3VJFuElzhe0YqwhVeAvI1w+JdVfziXh/cILfz2 NrWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LkziUTj8zMkhYNInm0s1stIVGTnQCjeGBy8IeWzl/R4=; b=rHgkbGgihcxy915UKKvrVQzBU7NKIUI+KVHt57zXypdqdy/v7Now026Qbnt6lDLpM7 fWWwLLHZ5zOnlL7nK/pCB786abkE0DAOrj6VeXPGU42dbQqV5kRO+ZQlfF08vz+O3zx0 GMUXpf2lfJ8sOII0g4o+O5ms2MJd0ULva8szSgja5ApeR0vhTqOu98Dpwv5b+WmCE3UK mT54snorylRAQapeaK8NMSL7QjfTa85SrE4Krt9z1nS8dMyCATe47MUOfYcAax9HnTDC a88pRwaxXKIeOU2196cnuPH11vx6w4tsapcuCS/XRJw078+BpXyjsQGGvgiVFp4WoUF2 SSJw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoh89hEviS8Q5YNkp/mRWFozB4Wy2uJC3Ve3b3buoetyIDZIn/47 6v+RG4d8uL1tnrSJjlqfwIz+9KYmmwzp/+up/jxAc42h X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62bMQW4WAYAxGx9g4DSYkLG1cSq95B+JermRquaXXHhzKL/4Ipi8K5dH2Y3R6rye6qc4WfRX84Fhqi6QerKUEQ= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:3902:: with SMTP id g2-v6mr4668757ioa.168.1538664031521; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 07:40:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181003215316.GA12527@fuz.su> <20181004142638.GA72667@fuz.su> In-Reply-To: <20181004142638.GA72667@fuz.su> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:40:20 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: fuz@fuz.su Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:40:33 -0000 Well, I'd wager its 100 cards that nobody is currently using (ed) has no value. Even 1000 different cards or 10,000. The ed(4) driver likely supported in excess of 1000 different cards because so many people made ne-2000 compatible cards... in the early 1990s. However, since nobody has ISA or PC Card (not CardBus) interfaces anymore (those machines topped out around 32-64MB, which FreeBSD no longer works well on), the benefit to the project is quite low. Even the 'newer' PC Card versions that were 10/100 couldn't get more than about 10-12Mbps due to ISA/PC Card bus speed limitations. The PCI versions were never popular (I had to hunt a bunch for them 10 years ago when I was finishing up my activities on the driver for my vast PC Card collection to find an example to test), and even it had trouble beyond 20Mbps because it wasn't DMA'd. The ED driver was a solid driver last time I tried it, but when I can plug in dozens of 100Mbps or 1Gbps cards into the same CardBus slot and those cost < $10 now, there's very little return on programmer time to keeping this one going. However, having said all that, if we can document 5 real users of this card on machines running FreeBSD 12, it will meet the criteria for remaining, just like any other driver.... So far we've found 0, while we have found many other users of other drivers. Warner On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:27 AM Robert Clausecker wrote: > I have a machine with FreeBSD 2.2.8 running with such an interface, but > none with FreeBSD 12, so you do have a point here. However, I am not > sure if it's a good idea to kill this driver; it's good for over 100 > different cards according to the man page, so surely there are some > users left. > > Yours, > Robert Clausecker > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 05:45:18PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > > > I request that ed(4) > > > > > > How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface? > > > > QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000 > series > > (em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU. > > > > Warner > > -- > () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world > /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 14:43:46 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F31510AD28B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:43:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x12e.google.com (mail-it1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63DA571EBC for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:43:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id l191-v6so13429777ita.4 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 07:43:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mSYsp+MPBtH1sN6OJmBg072JbNMsaRf5Beq+czvHypk=; b=ZBEO2NPYh/v1rzdKzuHejRB8k5+Ijmf7/pmNPfFnQVFfdJ0Duy9YC88iIpn/SctkOe z8s1CpvFycrm66y2Ewy4JHH6X1BU2AV1bXO5u6Oxm1ihyQXDzOlYm8RCBpVrvSfAwQzS +L1NQveWIx5pJCXYrN6ctGi9AgOWg4WYN4q+J0j2lXrlkopNOg2yd+63Wcuux/wWAEb7 PLSTzHMFlLx5zcs5pYfciIDh9gXKkZ7vGgcHLZtD8rsCBjDqCDdZOD8iDuhZeuqLS4Ny ntQe/jZe+F96/uqUB9w0gvAKuvyXpjSiwDnDYUXBPAnzjrMCUHKU+Hb/uP3EcZVXEyu2 qSeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mSYsp+MPBtH1sN6OJmBg072JbNMsaRf5Beq+czvHypk=; b=MKwB3OY+Lw9Rva/c6IMtgXJkoytdNpEmjPAAZGWMLx/48IUStGWRIc5p04HPnrgYoR 9p5NXZbQ+FTWtojXQuheDx3Zm62D8wWv4oBN9C1EP1ff1z9F5kNpLEmk0nbBdXEOtu1A 9JVOmam2V3JfWskU2XmRIWw0F/STwqE+Je6oOSuIbF6rF7OdpQVEXn7jdb+QC4cXqxnx TSwgnw07gazHkLEXKtb/3kT6BgQnSXUpL2Gy16XtAVzokqISqvhkRITprSRyna4fB6Dm 3PBlhZAC5trhdFBR1jZd3WmuLzDtJYdvZjFRO1YT5XGMSt1Mehz2iVwGW9kgmq5Uk8K3 7yBg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojRMH4IS9vCqxKaNa2KXCPINQl09P3EnURRgb6YJcnEwl9EFKHY 0dZo8rjIntjvi5axZpqCrizQi0o0vnk7aid4+xH6Og== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63dyT9JCR5N2bY1kW5S8iBZXUw3ujeb8lY6FkIB/7qZkioiIT9k/RW6lAfiJ5Almsu8IDcO4OPa3FFFZQqUp8I= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr5269918itc.75.1538664224668; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 07:43:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> <20181004144011.GA70537@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20181004144011.GA70537@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:43:33 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Net , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:43:46 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:26:44PM +0000, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen > > > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > > > are in fact 100. > > > > Sigh. If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in > > 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD. > > I don't quite understand why are you grouping 10/100 vs. 1000 rather than > 10 vs. 100/1000. > As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. They were all specifically 10Mbps or 10/100Mbps. Support for 10Mbps or 100Mbps isn't being removed from the tree: there's still dozens of GigE drivers that can do those speeds that have PCI or better bus attachments. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:07:23 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2344610AE171 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:07:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@vnode.se) Received: from oden.vnode.se (oden.vnode.se [45.76.82.188]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "oden.vnode.se", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8ECF72F1A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:07:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@vnode.se) Received: from ymer.vnode.se (62-20-154-136-no280.tbcn.telia.com [62.20.154.136]) by oden.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC48D1F638; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:07:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:07:20 +0200 From: Joel Dahl To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004150720.GA4942@ymer.vnode.se> Mail-Followup-To: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:07:23 -0000 On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. Why doesn't reports of uses on machines running FreeBSD 10/11 count? I don't get it. 12.0 isn't even out yet, and most of our users are probably not running CURRENT. As I wrote in an earlier email, I have lots of these cards running in production - and most of them are on FreeBSD 11. They'll likely be upgraded to 12.1 in the future (but probably not 12.0 - I usually skip .0 releases). But doing the jump to CURRENT/12 now is just out of the question - these are production systems after all. -- Joel From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:08:08 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C98110AE224; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:08:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7B5973127; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:08:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1033) id C00C555FA; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:08:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:08:07 +0000 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Warner Losh Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Net , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004150807.GB70537@FreeBSD.org> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> <20181004144011.GA70537@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.5 (2018-04-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:08:08 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. Right. My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used, 100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones. That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps. Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay. Following up on Ricks' question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable. ./danfe From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:17:22 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2F910AE986 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:17:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1783273C2F for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:17:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id C1D113C475F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:17:20 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:17:20 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004151720.GC74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004150720.GA4942@ymer.vnode.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GPJrCs/72TxItFYR" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181004150720.GA4942@ymer.vnode.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:17:22 -0000 --GPJrCs/72TxItFYR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 05:07:20PM +0200, Joel Dahl wrote: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > > The criteria for exception are: > > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will = be > > deemed satisfy the "popular" > > requirement. >=20 > Why doesn't reports of uses on machines running FreeBSD 10/11 count? I do= n't > get it. 12.0 isn't even out yet, and most of our users are probably not > running CURRENT. As I wrote in an earlier email, I have lots of these car= ds > running in production - and most of them are on FreeBSD 11. They'll > likely be upgraded to 12.1 in the future (but probably not 12.0 - I usual= ly > skip .0 releases). But doing the jump to CURRENT/12 now is just out of the > question - these are production systems after all. For the current poll, good faith intent to upgrade is fine. -- Brooks --GPJrCs/72TxItFYR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbti7/AAoJEKzQXbSebgfAijUIAIL7gvvts+nZmtxeGGdseIaH aPY/i7Ca8TElu63WskyWJwGZy1nvXzeko59F0415P6rXlxQYB4TQi6vVaSh8y/Sd PnRkBR8DwJEoeBHws0YLSGwTBMDVtmQNuwf2K2EnYs0usjekhyA1y5aWw9h9KgVS +9f2lEUrJcY5ksvVk5y296YzIuwCSFsG0gByPat1C50MuqoJvhB7Tw8MDTqNOBs9 VZxKFY+sKnjbGiOC/w/LXRy4eFz1QNQr/+yEgkB5CiqcFgmPymPa6jljYoaWOtio sPaBeoBXjO+oGPxccdoHl60l5XFO2bbY8nCMcvPi/uC9N99Ewg1JuVIwizhmxkE= =/Ixx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GPJrCs/72TxItFYR-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:34:35 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596E310AF304 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:34:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D774A746B1; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w94FYWWg006836; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w94FYUJ5006835; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810041534.w94FYUJ5006835@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181004151720.GC74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> To: Brooks Davis Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:34:30 -0700 (PDT) CC: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:34:35 -0000 > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 05:07:20PM +0200, Joel Dahl wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > > > The criteria for exception are: > > > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > > > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > > > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > > > deemed satisfy the "popular" > > > requirement. > > > > Why doesn't reports of uses on machines running FreeBSD 10/11 count? I don't > > get it. 12.0 isn't even out yet, and most of our users are probably not > > running CURRENT. As I wrote in an earlier email, I have lots of these cards > > running in production - and most of them are on FreeBSD 11. They'll > > likely be upgraded to 12.1 in the future (but probably not 12.0 - I usually > > skip .0 releases). But doing the jump to CURRENT/12 now is just out of the > > question - these are production systems after all. > > For the current poll, good faith intent to upgrade is fine. What I am finding very bothersome at this point is that a great miss understanding has been conveyed onto the users by the statement that "core has discussed this and we plan to proceed as proposed" >From a posting by Warner that statement is incorrect, this WHOLE fcp-101 is up for discussion and shaping. Right here above is an example of one thing that needs to be corrected in the FSP, the criteria is incorrectly stated if infact as "good faith intenet to upgrade is fine." I also saw another person state that the "5" user number appears to be very arbitrary. I agree. We should NOT be taking the pole until the FCP itself is approved... as altering the FCP could greatly effect the outcome of that pole. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:38:13 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246A510AF492 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:38:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3A7674892 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:38:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id CACBB3C475F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:38:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:38:11 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: Warner Losh Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004153811.GD74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810040121.w941Lwcg003883@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mSxgbZZZvrAyzONB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:38:13 -0000 --mSxgbZZZvrAyzONB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 08:18:15PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 7:58 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: >=20 > > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD = 12 > > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > > > Since when did a FCP become a core only process???? Why was this > > dicussed within core and not within the larger community? >=20 > Core hasn't approved this FCP, we're in the community discussion phase no= w. > If you have substantive comments, please comment. It's a proposal, and it= 's > being discussed now. As Warner says, this FCP isn't approved. Core's discussion centers on two points. First, we'd like to encourage the use the FCP process to solicit feedback and document decisions. That means using it so we can grind the sharp edges off and understand what works and doesn't work. Second, core believes that we support too much stuff and do a bad job of removing old things. Threads like this are a way to get more data prior to adding deprecation annotations (another way to collect data). Thus far we've found some that clearly should be on the exception list which is exactly as expected. -- Brooks --mSxgbZZZvrAyzONB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbtjPjAAoJEKzQXbSebgfA/M8H/A4MWwpV8oNwIdnw2/clJ3gt wQc7CfOWDc0FjkUK+BTEwnqEL9s/10U4NZBv4sRIv8DlzGpvs/tj03VExREdU0yU MhZ21abZoNeuNM/O/RF+MHGpmNRXUQI/DnrSQS7q+K88tXYX0zXA7vhbAGBdt7V4 cu5tQbAbZ5jBV4bLz4fu+DC3L5/ECG77EX+k7XmUc2w3fgs3wiIbI5zJ66Q0F4hH U7jcn6iRU5OdaKaf+mrozZxHFfDaQW83Y7Njcotk3x0UvDH1yxqrnyd4SurDS1qp m8wu5mpGlFEsS3fRudCMsZE4Ars2Lk7JxLatUurNKNCATTzDjmwajVsQEBHNYUk= =MMu8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mSxgbZZZvrAyzONB-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:46:13 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1936E10AF7A1; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:46:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F74D74D96; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:46:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 85pBgMWaIwyxU85pCgBVAw; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:46:04 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NPJhBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=mWm0YDQeuCclk_H0j58A:9 a=8wXVE3Uy4fUhRt1V:21 a=4jGVw-z9EJOV3jKp:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_Tt1_Y8nLLjDiYd8RLkA:9 a=g1D6cVUl-6yD_9a0:21 a=-9_FuqygaB4bePlk:21 a=AkvTBx0Z0YGVrdNs:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from [10.168.101.253] (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79EA3154E; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:47:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:46:03 -0700 To: Poul-Henning Kamp , Warner Losh CC: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20181004154744.79EA3154E@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKNMz4m05A6D71Kv19EkrViQQ3A97TBLwVkBHqLUFZnBEkFSrX1z0L1CedVgK4bAIBAhDyuJEetEzBzEg3rYg1A4IAkDmCRxJdqgzkcF8CPWn30MIPkF /AD8VuppSq2LpG6TsXuXcMPlFRqom3Q9XlEl9zgHLPwnEsl6vKhRrrbjzssD4XslX5pyJ0O6G99igClJzMfHpAcbtMqSfq8R+mPYN1vRNUePyV+mO58w8sPX aSb5P8owLANw7TBYwi1iKRoMfRe5bqi/gm7BNFTyllumWBa+zGzA2Fv9rCm+24z4X5bLCwR/PQTfRwiyrj+cotWVUpZDMd/EU+eo+vPhtHsNys0IuW4L/h2x 8ZQr5AfepWncRT7VUEHhtSSe2+n81g== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:46:13 -0000 I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not schedule= d for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, including w= ireless, currently installed here. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: 04/10/2018 07:03 To: Warner Losh Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List; FreeBSD Ne= t; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers -------- In message , Warner Losh writes: >Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the >years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation >because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the >tree. As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED! It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes. --=20 Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =20 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:49:18 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420A510AF914 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:49:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCB4774F44 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:49:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id z16-v6so8289528iol.6 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:49:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Y9R71KugAC+KDyAVk+sGzwQiRfyf9/Rmb5gaaBpOQMY=; b=ZgBNasgMHPTeyNW/sml5I/3dUCXRhHFgArT1rLcYb1hjm3Hy3juw/M3e7Wwt0+t4mH njzaVwgTWrk7A04nod2P3wtfoNdtyfcykQc5lr7WbkeU6oL50AqCjkjAEfcItkDV+ZNS d2VyrUqD/OEXtpvA8jVfEQdNxzmkFcc88UwW75kmYEniA236VzwcSBQl84BDLFjdPX4o DEjIqye0W9B7OE+LMd5cRnQe2eAryRSwrd1H+qhEj8ALY+HF2Ae395QDhPktsg11S09R lAjn8bwFXVhTkNn2AfebIlIYLK4iVGpYw95bgXpegBbTNaOkU8pZ7DMLLyw29X4oub7t 5e/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y9R71KugAC+KDyAVk+sGzwQiRfyf9/Rmb5gaaBpOQMY=; b=gnZuHTEA3J0Aw/oPhjg+QJS1tye+T4NxGr2YqnIsf0rYtSuTwIs8zxCoGzx3EbIT4q xCxm2f18Ks1NyQX2rBTvF1/FKNhMH2PAB3TkkYnXV4ssjl/n0NSgGaG916iObrW1AUNX EyNkAPZkROSH6N2rafZtC9L5BXwokiIK6cQrTksWzS4k0fKs+ewmhfNk9vkQca2xZC+x 4hfvq936l6DTDu2O5airhL771hv5SeuDn6QdLyavQOe46XxZcMwG9ETkUHXY0W2TPl8N BNz4lfqRAdYc08VgEPnmVZ9iaj7hYwMd3nwOmYxD6ZBM6Wpd/ShgM7i0KuWSp8vGYgto +FUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohFHdWRnUsvZt3d6+06JPH9qWk5Tt9CwNgc24egGdYiL/CXXU2T fswt21wI5YftCgTUWlKwNf99/0ufoLsGfjiQnmzKow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62FBGru3z3tFR8RkiLc+6ZgAPCsHrwGwY5jpMh6veIUUGR5N21KZ8yV92f8ZwYSTdiATLnc5M16iY1/sD32lWk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr4727466ioa.299.1538668157054; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:49:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181004151720.GC74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810041534.w94FYUJ5006835@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810041534.w94FYUJ5006835@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:49:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:49:18 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:35 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 05:07:20PM +0200, Joel Dahl wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > > > > The criteria for exception are: > > > > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond > the > > > > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > > > > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 > will be > > > > deemed satisfy the "popular" > > > > requirement. > > > > > > Why doesn't reports of uses on machines running FreeBSD 10/11 count? I > don't > > > get it. 12.0 isn't even out yet, and most of our users are probably not > > > running CURRENT. As I wrote in an earlier email, I have lots of these > cards > > > running in production - and most of them are on FreeBSD 11. They'll > > > likely be upgraded to 12.1 in the future (but probably not 12.0 - I > usually > > > skip .0 releases). But doing the jump to CURRENT/12 now is just out of > the > > > question - these are production systems after all. > > > > For the current poll, good faith intent to upgrade is fine. > > What I am finding very bothersome at this point is that a great > miss understanding has been conveyed onto the users by the > statement that "core has discussed this and we plan to proceed > as proposed" > > From a posting by Warner that statement is incorrect, this WHOLE > fcp-101 is up for discussion and shaping. For the record, I never said anything to the contrary. Stop putting words in my mouth. It's not helpful. I said it was in the community feedback phase. That's part of the process: changing things as the community gives feedback. > Right here above is an example > of one thing that needs to be corrected in the FSP, the criteria > is incorrectly stated if infact as "good faith intenet to upgrade > is fine." > That's part of the community feedback process. We add things, we adjust things. I never once said anything to the contrary in this thread. > I also saw another person state that the "5" user number appears > to be very arbitrary. I agree. > It's totally arbitrary. What's your point? We have to start somewhere, and so far the data is splitting nicely between 0 or 1 users and > 5 if my counts are correct. It appears, so far, to be a useful first order sorting function. > We should NOT be taking the pole until the FCP itself is approved... > as altering the FCP could greatly effect the outcome of that pole. > I disagree. We can run the two in parallel unless we hit something major. So far, I've seen nothing that suggests the polling done so far is invalid. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:52:17 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B193010AFBF3; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:52:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E57F5753B8; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:52:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 85vAgr4GWWppD85vBgpESt; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:52:14 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=YIcrNiOx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=LXThwzgc8wN3FM9o13oA:9 a=fqc2PL_DztmBmVzj:21 a=ZEiQw5VPCOVqgmOC:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=AIbFiXiN0DI7uwZkaOQA:9 a=L0QZSfI6CJ03u12I:21 a=H279Z_-4CPkF8jX7:21 a=BSQxGs51GfGbYr7p:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from [10.168.101.253] (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C2A51571; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:53:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:52:14 -0700 To: Rick Macklem , Warner Losh , Alexey Dokuchaev CC: FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org" , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20181004155355.6C2A51571@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGMshGmXv5liWXXAk0SNXTIODQak7iDJNiKbtro3L2CrLjwqEP6Oe/u+j7v1fQyS2K9q7yySvQLqFIAj2pCJuyi9kC9q6iH5AL+ygt6FXvC70npchxsy Br09qRjipULCE3Yyun+iTT3l6FdqodsPfURrJ8SVePvCKcbWIsobU0/tNJtN+bXCRQRoz/7dAY7D+KR33fxdExjBVu8HSxuYrjtfmjM3VEgf0g+weYcvjOFR MasDAjgRQ1MB2+kph2Jet9+MaoVZbUAGJIjo5OyWgwEErvyT6+JV8tNhCc+idngEkNlsuEWR7WaWtWP1RHX12csBdpE3m47r6EO3sLBO849bAE7AX6GsMSxa 2OomvdRLZYVYMVzErke/DNPdk7DeO4G9YicW3hk0K+sA7+9O/sg= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:52:17 -0000 I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, a= nd sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which= I can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Rick Macklem Sent: 04/10/2018 07:41 To: Warner Losh; Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: FreeBSD Net; freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE Mail= ing List; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Warner Losh wrote: [lots of stuff snipped] >That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to >iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, >common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not >dozens. I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both. Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted, so I can see what needs to be done? Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree. [more stuff snipped] rick _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:53:49 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A284510AFD20 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:53:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x12d.google.com (mail-it1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 339A475531 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:53:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id w200-v6so14703207itc.4 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:53:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dB0vU18jO+K8xwwl4vXxW3H0Qrno7/GlJCT85H+qyDI=; b=JqXwPAGzj5oOtDfkXmkQC33LC9adNykBe3EcP4XaczRYrChUI/bxSb/dlD/9+RHwhS txA4L9Pq7QP4n5dTzICmOx34PdpW8TKaIk3b+mKNWlKMMWOTVCc746ctVyH02Ix32z9d bmCtEbcdYiF4N184vnFNG0418MuFjuxouFHyVXfBVOX7cvWVCeOhKPmssXTqPC/YCLV0 cluwtkCCzgdvHzbxvUSoz+jHb8aAnFDF2xrh0GpYgwgKwhPG1HNBuhMnc4kjR5WlN5An v+oDklrJok/UXOpag/zkZ5nispI0DUsxTDIpd1nnYmKJnJ3lkQS7NRwFvBFNwavMrGIh nDtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dB0vU18jO+K8xwwl4vXxW3H0Qrno7/GlJCT85H+qyDI=; b=QGydReUGzx4csKsV39Qo+dR7iUIFU5RNkAVn9NYHtbCWtGJGgDkYX08wdJ5hmJHaxL g5nbpgETHDjactQNLC9vUxwCBG/el5gycPpmSQVVIWs9ZxVZ/5NXVCrLVRwBcFsij1Re e1aKq2Z/KxZcQ9O6WyvqNdABlaZFJQeotXGAh9Z4buHsi0ANIZOyIJyR3WInzmsrevGj c4HPw7DpJlH25UuHAWk+pyN5bGdjLcZYA9HwgD8xyBgONUsb8vL1FPBOrL0cLjCp6rxL /I3rd5PWgQYMUVoi0I8OW5yNryD6JhfORAPCrwQe1m/APvpBf0KaqlHnMqqWwQm8XDn/ 6k6g== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoi/zuWXwXadl6slBKml3cfs3M0aL9ZsZRiZYCcfDsYZc1FJzWXF 96Pvld1vG/ngh2md82GBIpC9QH9TfdlM1oWOL7bpFA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62WFya3GcyBdemgjkR86qUYoyUcDI0t8MgoNPGjiGk4UzFkvGOPX41a/9xx+XJ+ZSpdsfBVHeOZQb/upa96nJQ= X-Received: by 2002:a24:ac5:: with SMTP id 188-v6mr5112743itw.39.1538668428558; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:53:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181004154744.79EA3154E@spqr.komquats.com> In-Reply-To: <20181004154744.79EA3154E@spqr.komquats.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:53:37 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Cy Schubert Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:53:49 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert wrote: > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, > including wireless, currently installed here. > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 15:59:01 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BC710B0200; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:59:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 158A575AAB; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:59:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w94FwtdI007084; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w94FwtQD007083; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810041558.w94FwtQD007083@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:58:55 -0700 (PDT) CC: Cy Schubert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , Poul-Henning Kamp , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:59:01 -0000 > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert > wrote: > > > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not > > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, > > including wireless, currently installed here. > > > > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has > evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and > committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current > iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend. Nothing in the current state of the "freeze" would block a man page correction. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:02:52 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387D910B0780 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCCEC7613B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:02:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 865Qgr7sLWppD865RgpH8a; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:02:50 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=YIcrNiOx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=1I5U23AiimhIBCSnZOoA:9 a=IbZP0HunBpSMxrZc:21 a=Y_ZpuCQcp_Tmi-ZU:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=ie0lAQJSWFtoc10K1gAA:9 a=DzTo18lYn78rU0Xz:21 a=QTjgFShwftNUy96m:21 a=HIOFVkM2Cjwq-qcP:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from [10.168.101.253] (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D54EF15C5; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:04:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:02:50 -0700 To: Warner Losh , "fuz@fuz.su" CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20181004160431.D54EF15C5@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKJwa29iGe7QBHvRg+M2EZT1d0jbTPkB7XNRkkx+cZ8w/Rb7opbSfR6oBmKptZFhOXdl6tOoqDrMszbM7TSusO4zchqp/xejScBUQVvwUnf8/2AFLHy1 QboQo8uPSV0jF9heG5SJKYRiPCFXW7Z8Gsijzw55nXG94dJtW64evH27HhZ42qmvIRbastiWP9A2VhZUbNMnOHg3GYL8CCkkPbE= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:02:52 -0000 Not that I'm arguing to keep ed(4), I have three ne2000 PCI cards in my des= k here. Sure one could insert one in a current machine, but why? --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Warner Losh Sent: 04/10/2018 07:45 To: fuz@fuz.su Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Well, I'd wager its 100 cards that nobody is currently using (ed) has no value. Even 1000 different cards or 10,000. The ed(4) driver likely supported in excess of 1000 different cards because so many people made ne-2000 compatible cards... in the early 1990s. However, since nobody has ISA or PC Card (not CardBus) interfaces anymore (those machines topped out around 32-64MB, which FreeBSD no longer works well on), the benefit to the project is quite low. Even the 'newer' PC Card versions that were 10/100 couldn't get more than about 10-12Mbps due to ISA/PC Card bus speed limitations. The PCI versions were never popular (I had to hunt a bunch for them 10 years ago when I was finishing up my activities on the driver for my vast PC Card collection to find an example to test), and even it had trouble beyond 20Mbps because it wasn't DMA'd. The ED driver was a solid driver last time I tried it, but when I can plug in dozens of 100Mbps or 1Gbps cards into the same CardBus slot and those cost < $10 now, there's very little return on programmer time to keeping this one going. However, having said all that, if we can document 5 real users of this card on machines running FreeBSD 12, it will meet the criteria for remaining, just like any other driver.... So far we've found 0, while we have found many other users of other drivers. Warner On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:27 AM Robert Clausecker wrote: > I have a machine with FreeBSD 2.2.8 running with such an interface, but > none with FreeBSD 12, so you do have a point here. However, I am not > sure if it's a good idea to kill this driver; it's good for over 100 > different cards according to the man page, so surely there are some > users left. > > Yours, > Robert Clausecker > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 05:45:18PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:54 PM Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > > > I request that ed(4) > > > > > > How many FreeBSD 12.0 machines do you have running with this interface? > > > > QEMU does support this interface, but also supports the Intel E1000 > series > > (em/igb), so it's not necessarily needed for QEMU. > > > > Warner > > -- > () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world > /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:07:36 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2E310B0B76; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:07:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7128C76583; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:07:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 86A0gr9VvWppD86A1gpIQi; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:07:34 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=YIcrNiOx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=iNGMpphc3T5klhet3SkA:9 a=FwdSzZpY-AED6S4V:21 a=nP5a0vt2DfjzhsF2:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=lQAYqbelq4TCjjL6:21 a=yRds3KjQjLn9Fhxo:21 a=51MI_dSXgo8BWtul:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from [10.168.101.253] (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8CAFD15E7; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:07:34 -0700 To: Alexey Dokuchaev , Warner Losh CC: Mark Linimon , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net Message-Id: <20181004160915.8CAFD15E7@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPUIH3w5HSxtDe0JC0aDKpqaaCOALBGnuftciLF1uBydigCIIK2DkxiFz+Bgmy6Qjd2BQVIkJlSBQ0FOc/eXlq7nUTVhxIexU+ubFeep1RD+tUzcsS/c gdEelJV4UabnvyXdkHvR1gPgCKseAKsxic+DMSfGBeZPcCgRAu3uxNqtHpPIdjx0G/3Qg+serq0Yw817hcq1TWovTZRXuZvxNe4ggE7fXUgXSitdL93mF5Lg LBpC5msF5BELsc3NqaPhBhXXDIqZR8ncWM5tJogMlLMiPnMqYkMF3kpAAFW0UbxV233GIRiOf99nv5g0eb4qggdgBEVUKMycd20wwV3EItcrow1hfSR9ZKJK o0o/sF6K0brd6CqEr8vuM5xK/tQpwQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:07:36 -0000 People need to submit patches then. OTOH, they can all be moved to ports. I= MO, when pkgbase becomes a reality, much of this will become moot. People w= ill be able to mix and match base and ports packages. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Alexey Dokuchaev Sent: 04/10/2018 08:11 To: Warner Losh Cc: Mark Linimon; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org; FreeBS= D-STABLE Mailing List; FreeBSD Net Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. Right. My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used, 100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones. That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps. Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay. Following up on Ricks' question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable. ./danfe _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:13:14 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037F210B105C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:13:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CC0E76B62 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:13:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id c85-v6so14822658itd.1 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:13:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hW4LF5T2u8OYOcB31fyBhLwOhcZMQ5TPUhtlrrhgtNw=; b=tfyI3xuUUzhZlJa8tCz2lTy5+ELwo3YrXTMmIuOcexzqq65kcGtgySqg/28R/tj9LS KKdKzsIWumvTrfnIcM0pT8zO0fSIzyapfpc/p/I1FFDDJ7RRPEVbWROoYVoPvGtm9QFF NE6JfnGPDDrc5VbIORgDrGYEq0igOmtxZP1p8Dt069wHBsrdUJf8ZlDr97GI0s4qqPwp RYUJSubFbH98kmkOVZEFuU456zCbRWbGBor3PHvygdi6v50vk4u25w1Sepqu03QfG1DQ Mf6fAu0ERF9/IQCjSd/po9Rww2cr1Oo3CbopxwEilV38iWfOBbZ1TPJEh/Be4txqxXLN kWIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hW4LF5T2u8OYOcB31fyBhLwOhcZMQ5TPUhtlrrhgtNw=; b=CYyrvWvrE+WClq5Da2qVDtMu3qfCyj/U/ymdxyyu0eBfLHZ9uNXsYO5FU0OqWeOIUC 16ls3iH2H63RYNWpnVmOIbp8L+F1zj1B3FjLj17JgT+I0Hk2AnZlfN8CNUX4XjotA/ro yzfDbKtTG6YlQLGWGP9Rsmm/Syqf29i/OWeXtIaCouBRpCTwWGyH2N676B268ohMpSfg LucQAP8MMj16hVHvfh5pS3tr5e4diJeRYLDf8DKD+fKitio0cQqc7soDLohjV5X8+brw /nPeJ0XTVnnpCyqL0zSkBZtAzpU15A/WxfrgJO1Z9E9VWQ7miSSKQVgR5HJSuPuSCwgk augg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohUDqWvKwoaxXhUGLMZs15MxbAmhOfUuZvM0jFA9VvIEauXTtGN Byo29lYQC2/XQNiy78J+FU7zS1RGNZ6FSQAf5CRbOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62I87M88uG/hXNc/MnJcfL7kXoipkWXzwTvxPct+FOFFvmtw9ZBktHsz8wjyVqkCyYBh62bC2w/nNNjOR3LvOs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:660c:b03:: with SMTP id f3mr5549887itk.60.1538669592788; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201810041558.w94FwtQD007083@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810041558.w94FwtQD007083@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:13:01 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Cy Schubert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , Poul-Henning Kamp , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:13:14 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:59 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert > > wrote: > > > > > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not > > > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, > > > including wireless, currently installed here. > > > > > > > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has > > evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and > > committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the > current > > iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend. > > Nothing in the current state of the "freeze" would block a > man page correction. > All commits, no matter how trivial, require re@ approval. That necessarily slows things down, hence my phrase "as quickly as the freeze allows." Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:13:55 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1556B10B111A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:13:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from hades.sorbs.net (hades.sorbs.net [72.12.213.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6A676C3D; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:13:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from isux.com (gate.mhix.org [203.206.128.220]) by hades.sorbs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.29.0 64bit (built Jul 9 2013)) with ESMTPSA id <0PG200J3JYUAFP00@hades.sorbs.net>; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: tech-lists , Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> From: Michelle Sullivan Message-id: <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 01:13:40 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:51.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/51.0 SeaMonkey/2.48 In-reply-to: <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:13:55 -0000 tech-lists wrote: > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as far as I can see is just the messenger. -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:21:21 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0E610B180E for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:21:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x133.google.com (mail-it1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B87797748C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:21:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x133.google.com with SMTP id e74-v6so1985661ita.2 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:21:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9ESKOX6UU+T613F+kxO3YUulh7v4el2l+t1kDe4JsJM=; b=AG3GFqptYCAL+mRUppbSVtfz2ylXcCJlal7dfBpIWSkQW4LSbCzMDpxcy6Dr6WO7KT 2UpyTLCiKTgl95IlryPr3WfD7+IcaMFIPqMR2w3dwX4aVC5a/oH+iMPLH7vArO924Zej Tyd01pUvhZ9MStEBZ/5qq9f08SvNAtycwL/OiSpIDaLRQjqSie7Vwozvo3tz5ZkFTQC8 dHyEPDjqJ2LAVLTVP1vfm+4nOcp4gEOS2rcSzvj94wXL7lP907GT+tAybYMq7OXP9Ft1 Ht47id9ub+xyPNGar3PGltbc2EoNsB0rRUS316TA6+n27Vn5fbCb1iXbL4HujpzyOZKK cObg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9ESKOX6UU+T613F+kxO3YUulh7v4el2l+t1kDe4JsJM=; b=i3hPRox2ktbvHTCEjtYd/wmSxT6UIOZ+MRR8Lai0E4sTV8tKXv9cGFXN9ZHBCXAUIP 7luPQ9XkQLkfktF21nUZ5m9XEzwcMIlHQ7Wl4BeA1QginH13+QJ0LhmgLJU6FHGc0p7G dISma/PDt5Z8istE27MB+1vDFdKfrG5p9aFEUN1RLlwHTa2P+MQcT2X+ER74NJKjtEz8 +M4vNeAFbNchmmsu79VoqZhPfbQSDK611JYOSGqTnu0MExVyRdf3/0/Jrlux9vmgwHIt RTu5hRX1RZW69dOKRHmc2RLB4p/6qT4Mg691EJ+HnGBwnRR+7MyL8GaFTTmdfj6KILW7 cqTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogdJhkOTNjM+ivWiLvBa9d4dSjBQz7/h4JbU116wxWud9TFtnsG lxTGa1Hes/7gLqEpmtqt7eQqyion1JStmKCbP6V/qw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61uIP6uHlXelil+bkWSFpCxB/oi2F+bCFR1krxvlAqTrEfCltxcYhed8fdxaL2Mm+H7jfuZY+YBE5pabQWuU74= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr5640647itc.75.1538670080011; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:21:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> In-Reply-To: <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:21:08 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: michelle@sorbs.net Cc: tech-lists , Brooks Davis , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:21:21 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan wrote: > tech-lists wrote: > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > far as I can see is just the messenger. > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong here in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had waned much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used at Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology because that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:21:11 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AA910B17E6; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:21:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevin@your.org) Received: from mail.your.org (chi02.mail.your.org [204.9.55.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2316B7734A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:21:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevin@your.org) Received: from mail.your.org (chi02.mail.your.org [204.9.55.23]) by mail.your.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D683A433D86; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:21:03 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=your.org; h=content-type :mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= selector1; bh=Ub5B3JAvXr1w0aAon9vpA15qJtY=; b=TMJKve9G5Sm8YRqvPP IDSa//zIxUUWaHjTd5sIqcFlzOSQXmfrZy+p2lCblGpmEmr7w2x7Ju85wwfl1S16 G+fT/FeVD214sdElXPcR9I2MsiirjmAeFw933y8KvhpMWprhmu5CJ9DbieKBHKAe BZ9iY92Yq8t1kDqVXB7SMqUxQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=your.org; h=content-type :mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; q=dns; s= selector1; b=m4EgeILpTGFGe3BFxowLIz717J+dhThiKZi1Lbl53Eq39G5Y/yL t2hHMgpbsH4BZ7KYaqFJDLXoY7g1NrceWKvTU7gRsAPri+QZoB8LYUKIATJo59c1 n11TmI43kp3xgTTK356OdNg+n76q2VgIxN+kibkYT2QXC3Siwjm3DXgw= Received: from unassigned.v6.your.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4978:1:45:f964:f9ab:54b2:c38d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.your.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB02D433D85; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:21:03 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Kevin Day In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:21:03 -0500 Cc: luciano@vespaperitivo.it, FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43356262-A30B-4B4E-AB81-DE79DB985806@your.org> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> <42Qt573dbmz1ftWT@baobab.bilink.it> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:21:11 -0000 > On Oct 4, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:53 AM Luciano Mannucci = > wrote: >=20 >>> While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about >> removal >>> of ste(4) and especially rl(4). These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular = NICs >>> sold in enourmous values in certain markets by vendors like D-Link = and >>> TP-Link using various trade names. >>=20 >=20 > Enough people are using rl that it's off the list by my count. If you need any extra data, rl is the only one that I'd be sad to lose = as well. We have a lot of embedded devices that are still shipping today = with rl chips. I could chip in a little to sponsor someone to modernize = the driver if needed. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:22:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7541110B1917; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:22:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E02D77626; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:22:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id E8E343C475F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:22:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:22:25 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004162225.GE74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:22:27 -0000 --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< A few points of clarification: Rod correctly points out that this message makes it look like the FCP is a done deal as written. This is not the case and we welcome feedback on the entire proposal. IMO, soliciting input on the list of drivers along with the proposed process is a way to keep discussion concrete so we will proceed with both. It was asked: when does iflib conversion need to occur to save a driver? My proposed plan it to proceed with deprecation notices of otherwise unpopular drivers, but conversion can come in and remove those notices at and upto (or even after) removal from the tree. In an effort to save some email, we will be moving rl(4) to the list of drivers to STAY as it has proved itself to be popular. A few others appear to be well on their way so keep the reports coming. Thanks, Brooks P.S. As a person who has edited every driver in the tree multiple times in the last year (mostly in an external tree), I will consider this process successful even if we keep the majority of listed drivers in the tree. On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +0000, Brooks Davis wrote: > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< >=20 > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. >=20 > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: >=20 > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe >=20 > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: >=20 > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl >=20 > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usabl= e. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) >=20 > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. >=20 > The full FCP-0101 is included below. >=20 > -- Brooks >=20 > --- > authors: Brooks Davis > state: feedback > --- >=20 > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers >=20 > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before > FreeBSD 13. >=20 > ## Problem Statement >=20 > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. >=20 > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. >=20 > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). >=20 > ## Proposed Solution >=20 > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes > to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete depreca= ted > devices. >=20 > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usabl= e. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) >=20 > ### Exceptions to removal >=20 > Device | Reason > -------|------------------------------------------------- > ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards > fxp | Popular device long recommended by the project. > dc | Popular device for CardBus card. > hme | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. > le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. > sis | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641. > vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards. > xl | Popular device for CardBus card. >=20 > Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round. >=20 > ### Device to be removed >=20 > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe >=20 > ## Final Disposition >=20 > TBD --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbtj5BAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAC4wH/203c8m6mZBpqfAuCctlsUsm nJEuJNu9hHYRFe/GZOo5G6l7utCXqgggirIIehYSVP8MoDMBdjFCOKMWhRnqfNgc vZkOEJ04F56y2C1cMWwzBbSkp7omSIoAuIjq2NKZmi0tyY37UKjlvpHUP2LdS0lr eMbug1tgOhXRDGem5+J6hZ/C61F9n9/6l3wdbHGDTGfuR3LdzYVH0M6H3d16OBKW PSNNPnBdK3p8B7HJb6YTryvVJXMajtqg10tvFEWAElLuOc4tieQXfcWH0oSISLZ9 S0kjPyd5exmoosuOxWruuGS3WOEH+0o4TtSys70VyQxRH34h0oGpjCLXedP0ky8= =bJ8N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 16:23:44 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4BA10B1B1F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:23:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A268778EC; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:23:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 6DAD03C475F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:23:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:23:43 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: Kevin Day Cc: Warner Losh , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , luciano@vespaperitivo.it Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004162343.GF74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <45c44128-85cb-5b4c-3af3-cbdf1560c9be@grosbein.net> <42Qt573dbmz1ftWT@baobab.bilink.it> <43356262-A30B-4B4E-AB81-DE79DB985806@your.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43356262-A30B-4B4E-AB81-DE79DB985806@your.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:23:44 -0000 --Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:21:03AM -0500, Kevin Day wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Oct 4, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > >=20 > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:53 AM Luciano Mannucci > > wrote: > >=20 > >>> While I have no objection for general direction, I have doubts about > >> removal > >>> of ste(4) and especially rl(4). These are cheap 100Mbit VERY popular = NICs > >>> sold in enourmous values in certain markets by vendors like D-Link and > >>> TP-Link using various trade names. > >>=20 > >=20 > > Enough people are using rl that it's off the list by my count. >=20 > If you need any extra data, rl is the only one that I'd be sad to lose as= well. We have a lot of embedded devices that are still shipping today with= rl chips. I could chip in a little to sponsor someone to modernize the dri= ver if needed. It's definitly on the STAY list at this point. If you could help get it update that would be great, especially if it's still shipping (a very useful datapoint). -- Brooks --Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbtj6OAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAHNwH/Ro7yBo3G2I9lVw1y1fGEDED rS9XTO/HDOfWkfeYvcez952oBeh6YOsXRgWAxsA7UcO43fYrRtE6R/Hb7XPUoxWa /r5gvhrWWfsmwg/eJCE+wSS8NjCdxWGa2aebZYjQct6tzHjsokuH+m9yvbfx6qD1 ecIhtMITo8Zo+5G5bybcH2JzxM1aJVATq0zVO2Ezy+MkqYg49cCbCqMsAHKFE04L 66ri3K38pMHpZxH74ucW5r4dyVSba5XDr76qKIMxBlqlfJG3OjtWQOfWVv54zXzo SdUeKYnvK7CNxv8MTP99TAk+tQ399mRfKVW5AifmHoEBld572bZzgxwlxyksvjY= =/BDY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y1L3PTX8QE8cb2T+-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:24:28 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A708B10B3A0E for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:24:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from mail.bitblocks.com (ns1.bitblocks.com [173.228.5.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3943E7A927 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:24:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.bitblocks.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08F5156E40C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:24:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000." <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Comments: In-reply-to Brooks Davis message dated "Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <21759.1538673853.1@bitblocks.com> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:24:13 -0700 Message-Id: <20181004172420.F08F5156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:24:28 -0000 On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000 Brooks Davis wrote: > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl What is the disposition of drivers not on either list? > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. I don't understand why there is a "significant ongoing 'tax' on new development" for old NICs. Can the internal MI<->MD interface be evolved in the direction where the MD drivers for old h/w "just work"? Or is it a hopeless task? From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:30:48 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3620F10B3C1B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:30:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C15D07AADB for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:30:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id m16-v6so4353858ioj.4 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:30:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8ac9fRdAHJZrwvm8mXHNN15tKJb6ZE7ZDEZKeLIHRKU=; b=k1Zd2OZ4j68s96tFAq9bPr1XD+A6ZovpqhboxILwcAnvs/5CgMxpIjYRq5TckHWUqk 0v1MIWoYYiA982gvwxmCmYkxexwbyXNwgDv+HEzVK+tvUhfvBHlub6KBlGMSP3QKdehI Pud8ur/lvePjENpgAB0uAHinJXL/2oUINsdGXf+ACjms+yN5l7o1Ej8/LyQmVqFZ0z4t JbjnNlUhmrUu4QnC4CPy/Ynz0OsP8xylNG11ul1yXCHQuqZft6T3T0lATvJ9UDmeGMhD bvQLGsEXGje6V+gUfl/5//GyadqHP+J+KCw+qrWtvBc3E8vX5BOJqwuprsXujRMw30x7 y4Yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8ac9fRdAHJZrwvm8mXHNN15tKJb6ZE7ZDEZKeLIHRKU=; b=ToVP3IPMVvOnYZXLrLOZXHf6KZ55VyL9H93pCUhsKXAqLvBrrQQfYANHd8lNsVC6VG Vz1J9TVgpSN6xjvkN+R4qe/vRQYvOSaZd1xAXSSQV7GVr9AMaf5SxbsEk6p1tnPEE+Iz svxzcv13CE/dorc1O0Ed5EzZC3erLe+eQLWrVtTkassmAoajxaGjhq//sDi1XsEnPGbU IdevXfJLIosTdjreY37GJYIU3F3NY3J0hafdQYxJyz0z2Sk6R5p7dz0M9fobnlm6H91g 9UqTQb1QII+pJREzSeWNKN7Kt/y8eQKTJmz/Vx1OkdW+dO5fG/lwxjojbO6TUAiou0pj yWXA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoh6Wi4Lz6Fxo5+Gqp8GJHLSHQB8IoCMC6Pykn11aMWerL6pmqk/ qRwgHiK8CD4JndK8oj94KBlstb8QyI425+2PERUSq2MH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63iMcaxF8ozE231P05gEUYCesucXOZsU9zwoJbiAajpcq75t24i5MWNQOA1nOF0VH1BmxKwUvLtrV5UTDRr1dw= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr5039036ioa.299.1538674247026; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:30:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004172420.F08F5156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> In-Reply-To: <20181004172420.F08F5156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:30:35 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Bakul Shah Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:30:48 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:25 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000 Brooks Davis > wrote: > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > What is the disposition of drivers not on either list? > Apart from de, what are they? > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > I don't understand why there is a "significant ongoing 'tax' > on new development" for old NICs. Can the internal MI<->MD > interface be evolved in the direction where the MD drivers for > old h/w "just work"? Or is it a hopeless task? > There's two problems. One is that the current APIs are very much setup for cut and paste driver construction. This leads to many drivers needing to be changed more often than necessary as the APIs are evolved. The second is the nature of the hardware has changed. We've gone from devices that can handle at most a single packet at the same time to drives that can handle thousands with some of the TCP stack offloaded into the card. This wide range of hardware is difficult to program for with the current stack. iflib is supposed to help (which is the MI/MD thing you're talking about), but in the end it can likely help only so much before support for old cards holds back adaptation of new features for new cards. Taken together, the old NICs in the tree represent a real burden to people trying to innovate (or even just bug fix) in this area. Add to that the inability to actually test the hardware in any meaningful way, and you have a situation that needs to change. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:38:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED9510B3F3C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:38:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x142.google.com (mail-it1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D481A7B143 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x142.google.com with SMTP id p64-v6so15248735itp.0 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SqBfgU3fCH1zqiEW7mq0A7AGd6Y5Qng9r+jOAXqXyfU=; b=glavLR2Jm3bdqDdq4Uk0CAncro430qeKBaT2yH7pwfogcW86cIUZPJcyyZXTqMMrN7 1n+2Hi7q8Yel4RLihxiJ29At4uJPfr1jPX+FBaJhXMLIH79cyb3S8hBwIxDV9iefuAGf QMAfAy75RaRgbkW08QWWzIAbKzS1Uvuos8fhi/ydThxfHtd6TxPLpPOwt0YXExd7y4sI +5u0YQwdqLk5/dRxwb1pYFv4/OGmHPZqfj28VpLg3potUU0nvY+r8FnmpnYojWawG3g0 4uJJ3n8vV1B4iOR6ObAXl9o1ruJ6iagw8bS7FzpzJvTXPPTt3V2RYvIf/jJGKMUKeKPM +NcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SqBfgU3fCH1zqiEW7mq0A7AGd6Y5Qng9r+jOAXqXyfU=; b=Gu6y2rq/Ao5rQ5qND+bbPZRpi3oiuG1Wr7STJIrj5IKlrMmV9UTj1P5nONU7e+AAcY MfPyY8epCMwNuIiqnneRiixkIlPNQKibwwiE1DJrt1PJcRLrUVA12ryPoOMYAodB7i9p Z/uatUu6rxumVTaDZVZHV81UAyRmH2RiSfVflp5Ca+rl5h1M7ojeEojjli5/yB5FHwUb 4QgqLh1mCfkbPDRFAg/6PUciRfOLA/TIVSzg/yvnBiuZH6E3tN6wBu/WTS/S59MqStlM xI8HASaSlp8B9yopJ+P3UtQcni1JWmnLNJI6HryU7W//qA0Ma6+T9gchZchEj3gs6efK +mgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoiHJUuKI92F+uFIZCrpu8kxwH2oereyR287RfPqqsiR08+9ZsA+ b+PnumukCHAN8PKdh9pfPs0QjVhLip5Zvkujc7Rt1ZxD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62HyqJuIyxVs4At+pv6ID5coX+AMcEgIRUDBqTpQqFsWecMMLrfg24TR7jERGqp0uW5bN2yfD6pP9InwfC3+UY= X-Received: by 2002:a02:31d:: with SMTP id y29-v6mr6016517jad.98.1538674738107; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:38:46 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Ian Lepore Cc: michelle@sorbs.net, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:38:59 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > wrote: > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > here > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > waned > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > at > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > because > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that it's taken them to keep things current with rl. In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were later... I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:42:00 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A18C10B425B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB6CA7B77A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:41:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 990DC3C475F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:41:53 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:41:53 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: Bakul Shah Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004174153.GA88762@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004172420.F08F5156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gKMricLos+KVdGMg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181004172420.F08F5156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:42:00 -0000 --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 10:24:13AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000 Brooks Davis wrot= e: > >=20 > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl >=20 > What is the disposition of drivers not on either list? They weren't considered and nothing changes unless someone points them and proposes some action. The document points out that USB devices were skipped. Not mentioned were NICs tied to specific architectures. > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. >=20 > I don't understand why there is a "significant ongoing 'tax' > on new development" for old NICs. Can the internal MI<->MD > interface be evolved in the direction where the MD drivers for > old h/w "just work"? Or is it a hopeless task? I've touched every single Ethernet driver by hand multiple times in that past year in our research tree. We'll never know how much modernization isn't being done because it's a pain. iflib does reduce this cost, but conversion isn't trivial. We should work to migrate drivers that are used and stop wasting time on ones that aren't. -- Brooks --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbtlDgAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAgdgH/iLB2J/7iIm7ZduA9TWd3EFG /qB3XxgIsJ3uLp3W7OlelHBqxX1+2CuWWfsqRueNbD9eTm25DwqTXeGqhF/u2j5p m9w3g3a0cOhqLUEEp0TgI3aKqBenNYA0KbDxoQUCFBf1e4NDpuSqw+g5gKhwrPbV VsNZTskw5joGV6AducvsHzg2qkvglUunt9xsqbE1jWlI3ktT1Hlwh+d46MZLAfLm 5w+zlWLRoN3heGCu29cKKWlBZEIjaZMoICJ+7Ga7BJjPIL7ce1BNU6YOw8opwDI5 eLft9HcpFLpcY5R5ndYuL6xboks9ME0xn7vTLZwzYVWT9BcPJCJ4U6n1OSarlTU= =Ejo8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gKMricLos+KVdGMg-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:42:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37E510B4461 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:42:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound2r.ore.mailhop.org (outbound2r.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.129.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B1387B84C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:42:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: a5fd50ef-c7fa-11e8-a70c-1d534e3451d5 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound2.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id a5fd50ef-c7fa-11e8-a70c-1d534e3451d5; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:26:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w94HQbEx000310; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:26:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Ian Lepore To: Warner Losh , michelle@sorbs.net Cc: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:26:37 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:42:53 -0000 On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > wrote: > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong here > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had waned > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used at > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology because > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > Warner 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:52:13 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3D910B4A18 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:52:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from mail.bitblocks.com (ns1.bitblocks.com [173.228.5.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4887BF10 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:52:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.bitblocks.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3E2156E40C; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah To: Warner Losh cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:30:35 -0600." References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004172420.F08F5156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> Comments: In-reply-to Warner Losh message dated "Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:30:35 -0600." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22183.1538675517.1@bitblocks.com> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:51:57 -0700 Message-Id: <20181004175204.EA3E2156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:52:13 -0000 On Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:30:35 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:25 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > > > On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000 Brooks Davis > > wrote: > > > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > > > > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > > > What is the disposition of drivers not on either list? > > > > Apart from de, what are they? I have re on on the motherboard on one machine. Granted this is a very dumb test but... cd /usr/src/dev for a in *; do if [ -e $a/if_$a.c ] ; then echo $a; fi; done | wc -l 86 > > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > > > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > > > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > > > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > > > I don't understand why there is a "significant ongoing 'tax' > > on new development" for old NICs. Can the internal MI<->MD > > interface be evolved in the direction where the MD drivers for > > old h/w "just work"? Or is it a hopeless task? > > > > There's two problems. One is that the current APIs are very much setup for > cut and paste driver construction. This leads to many drivers needing to be > changed more often than necessary as the APIs are evolved. The second is > the nature of the hardware has changed. We've gone from devices that can > handle at most a single packet at the same time to drives that can handle > thousands with some of the TCP stack offloaded into the card. This wide > range of hardware is difficult to program for with the current stack. iflib > is supposed to help (which is the MI/MD thing you're talking about), but in > the end it can likely help only so much before support for old cards holds > back adaptation of new features for new cards. Taken together, the old NICs > in the tree represent a real burden to people trying to innovate (or even > just bug fix) in this area. Add to that the inability to actually test the > hardware in any meaningful way, and you have a situation that needs to > change. Thanks for the explanation. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:58:42 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F2310B4BAA for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x134.google.com (mail-it1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44A337C1B2 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:58:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x134.google.com with SMTP id c85-v6so15318972itd.1 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:58:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H4wpBeohmCgTa0t3GpKab3BGtsR+5MKwBOnLIofY5fA=; b=vPVKMu8kofxzG53rI+wpbu8TQ79VdoNOUZ2zpaB6o3rC8ma6rBxCPksqBZTJFQ3FbB KuY/OvIAYmPNhdN3WHsMn9+NH3/cEnJzNbLnVnLPSWnsOd1uGCdc7IQlO2vmHTPo9jeh 20Vei+jMyPZc2W45qlGq0f4V41QguqlEQQh4ukbgu1/tVC9GBYRA9mRTrTa+PxdlJZNw 6gXFcg1CmlXulhpES8pEbwb8TbaFwyzYxoeLvi07vvW6GCHQhQpfaITvC5kWuixoBOf0 aqVA4sEKi6JoXtkdutnp5IYjRDfOFfSwpTWxx7u4A8itCNgfA2Ao0gU0fjieCoVDpFul VUfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H4wpBeohmCgTa0t3GpKab3BGtsR+5MKwBOnLIofY5fA=; b=hqHNnI3xhsIZZRAx2D/C+ygGpRO3aCOrk0dMlTtS8+rxUn/5w54wPWhDQ7liFjCt6b 28iM3Z0aMhwOk3O7KNmRKGNELVJMLStSALgyf51ZgtHa2Zs392FK/v/QW1nBJqJMpJkc w9BXLPDgTtsOlrCdMmMB+yzPtGIqCioZcjgq5/i4IFnfKxiDj+SacuI/H5AMXohhLEt8 IcBmWqAWGHi+Y4y9ZTINYGBwJ4+8re0trw9cuVg2BaZm0oV3U2hWQVDoTsi7XaIj7etW xpL9nr+5EAq0W7niRaqKAytcClwBVEwbBqp1eRB3fOcMzydiloBqD9ogoB4+xOjepYB0 6OLA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoiQr1J/ESZuXpbCVwWd2GF87cxe8llrMvh0pt6ArFTCviaiiqqQ 04adZNrZFqsQqdWOwjYF4rxaayXeUJFLlvwZj6L8Rg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV603OJNJGULvVfKBgz+Z2jKVWYqZtFTXxcSkhpSGe0spX88Y/J3UujQeOtJCk8cEDzHJJRX8BlYF5piCTta3kII= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr5963145itc.75.1538675920518; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:58:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:58:29 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Ian Lepore Cc: FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:58:42 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks > as > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > > here > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it > was > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > > waned > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in > them > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we > used > > > at > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > > because > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > > > Warner > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still > be > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > > later... > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list > we still use appears to be rl. > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. > I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and that you may someday upgrade them as well? Which of the Vortex86 processors are you using, if you can answer that... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:03:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BA310B50A6 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:03:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org (outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.247.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70A0B7C7E7 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: 99cde7c4-c7fd-11e8-aed8-99744f00ac98 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound1.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 99cde7c4-c7fd-11e8-aed8-99744f00ac98; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:47:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w94HljgT000365; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:47:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Ian Lepore To: Warner Losh Cc: FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:47:45 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:03:57 -0000 On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > here > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > waned > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > > at > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > because > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > later... > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > Warner I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list we still use appears to be rl. One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:18:10 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0543810B58A3; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:18:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from hz.grosbein.net (hz.grosbein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:d12:604::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hz.grosbein.net", Issuer "hz.grosbein.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E2AE7D379; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:18:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from eg.sd.rdtc.ru (eg.sd.rdtc.ru [IPv6:2a03:3100:c:13:0:0:0:5]) by hz.grosbein.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94II1Jw007207 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:18:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) X-Envelope-From: eugen@grosbein.net X-Envelope-To: imp@bsdimp.com Received: from [10.58.0.4] ([10.58.0.4]) by eg.sd.rdtc.ru (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94II1nw095386 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:18:01 +0700 (+07) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Warner Losh , Ian Lepore References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> Cc: FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" From: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: <71975da2-af36-7886-47f2-3f630ee67073@grosbein.net> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:17:54 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,LOCAL_FROM,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Report: * -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record * 2.6 LOCAL_FROM From my domains X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on hz.grosbein.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:18:10 -0000 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote: > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports in my home router). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:22:10 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5179610B5AFE; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:22:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from hz.grosbein.net (hz.grosbein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:d12:604::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hz.grosbein.net", Issuer "hz.grosbein.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF26F7D811; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:22:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from eg.sd.rdtc.ru (eg.sd.rdtc.ru [IPv6:2a03:3100:c:13:0:0:0:5]) by hz.grosbein.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94IM3pw007260 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:22:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) X-Envelope-From: eugen@grosbein.net X-Envelope-To: brooks@freebsd.org Received: from [10.58.0.4] ([10.58.0.4]) by eg.sd.rdtc.ru (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94IM2l4095408 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:22:02 +0700 (+07) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004162225.GE74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:21:56 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181004162225.GE74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,LOCAL_FROM,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Report: * -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record * 2.6 LOCAL_FROM From my domains X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on hz.grosbein.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:22:10 -0000 04.10.2018 23:22, Brooks Davis wrote: > In an effort to save some email, we will be moving rl(4) to the list of > drivers to STAY as it has proved itself to be popular. A few others > appear to be well on their way so keep the reports coming. And ste(4) please, as these are hardly replaceable two- and four-ports cards. In many cases it is impossible to replace them without replacement of whole boxes that have no extra PCI slots. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:23:29 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7BF10B5D6C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:23:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x134.google.com (mail-it1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 281367DA39 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:23:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x134.google.com with SMTP id l127-v6so2526687ith.1 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:23:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t6ioxtNxlhWY4VEAbEIW/LTMG/y+05x0eO598I2z1cA=; b=BlLEyhytAIZaK5qJF7c6RzY+uWM313GDMRkBxPKNh/IWyloemT/2pa02i08VtyWPZf ZYkWUZmxjN9M5era56vH+UuI7X+xXSRPVxYXbI6GeHLXfIgXzAV6euEofwGN+jThTKu1 lDdujleKckqWcbrBNHiXSZuzVkRA5x1FkvmfhCaDKZUkj24XelMyH4+17kGTALlmG6hH +bTEMofud6Rul1ALDVQKbQ3Xy6APNSRs5gC9L2LpBIHnf1xmGBPA7cKsnw8KmQDWRfID occLVNaRgQHmxldeHpb5M+K5Tj05XXbA2DQoK+tK1FcDv26abhl0b6UwgoDm10AqClKT hXsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t6ioxtNxlhWY4VEAbEIW/LTMG/y+05x0eO598I2z1cA=; b=Ygea94UHz/E/dpYJsKquH7Y4jNQuG6dT8WSoj6bRl5g7pya+BuUUP6WpDVnXky2eUq XrurcA9uvu5eYwhsxWCaNi+a1aObeIlx/Wf1HeT5TXETv8w8uoDRdl2viQJR2YnhA2ot TPTuguU1U2SA09eXkFGqylE9KiJID4+3KUO3Vq/0CwB7d9uf6FGQtbhkw+/Pu6YtdjUJ LhYf5H06SHCQdc2il+Pv9Eyid9PhPd8S2RoRvceU11exTGfnIdQsKlrTSPKHLdt7GyJJ LDWT8UNot2yPHmxjrb9wp+c4cigpskkGZdFZtsVvasRbZaPefLM0Gom6MCEUghsG4uTN jBqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogd5F8Ohwq8fR7rKnPd58dIc9WC46V3DNz9QoxjNIOaNgigkHwh oCx+vkmsdnNRs29JvZC+Vq2cF5bpzE59ey6+hJftyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62xVOVgoGmSCdFiEp21teQGY5S6ouwG+2WdqPtCG/w9bv+QOJfqSpZEjoaMd/6mlM9X3VrTQ12V5BPt8JhXnC0= X-Received: by 2002:a24:ac5:: with SMTP id 188-v6mr5578356itw.39.1538677408464; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:23:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <71975da2-af36-7886-47f2-3f630ee67073@grosbein.net> In-Reply-To: <71975da2-af36-7886-47f2-3f630ee67073@grosbein.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:23:17 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Eugene Grosbein Cc: Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:23:29 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein wrote: > 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote: > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as > it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports > in my home router). > Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:24:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D7E10B5F06 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:24:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound1a.eu.mailhop.org (outbound1a.eu.mailhop.org [52.58.109.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDE1D7DC25 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: 833b1f58-c800-11e8-af31-edadc92cdc1a X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 833b1f58-c800-11e8-af31-edadc92cdc1a; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:08:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w94I8ZNZ000419; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:08:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1538676515.14264.15.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Ian Lepore To: Warner Losh Cc: FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:08:35 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:24:57 -0000 On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how > > > > > > > common > > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to > > > > > > Brooks.  Brooks > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I > > > > > guessed wrong > > > > here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I > > > > > knew it > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's > > > > > popularity had > > > > waned > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems > > > > > with rl in > > them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the > > > > > SBCs we > > used > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old > > > > > technology > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare > > > > > availability...). > > > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of > > > > Microchip) are > > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping > > > > software > > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build > > > > systems with a > > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability > > > > and > > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a > > > > BIG reason > > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production > > > years > > > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users > > > of > > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. > > > That's a > > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the > > > efforts that > > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should > > > still > > be > > > > > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was > > > one that > > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used > > > in around > > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will > > > ever be > > > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked > > > during my > > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times > > > were > > > later... > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, > > > sn, smc, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > thread, and > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the > > list > > we still use appears to be rl. > > > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So > > I'll > > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. > > > I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and > that you > may someday upgrade them as well?  Which of the Vortex86 processors > are you > using, if you can answer that... > > Warner It's a DM&P Vortex86DX on a PCA-6743 board, which you can still buy. 32-bit only, BTW, which is why I hate hearing recent mumblings about discarding 32-bit x86 support in freebsd. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:30:33 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1729710B6548; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:30:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from hz.grosbein.net (hz.grosbein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:d12:604::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hz.grosbein.net", Issuer "hz.grosbein.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93B757E2C8; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from eg.sd.rdtc.ru (eg.sd.rdtc.ru [IPv6:2a03:3100:c:13:0:0:0:5]) by hz.grosbein.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94IUP0w007359 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:30:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) X-Envelope-From: eugen@grosbein.net X-Envelope-To: linimon@lonesome.com Received: from [10.58.0.4] ([10.58.0.4]) by eg.sd.rdtc.ru (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94IUPfR095554 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:30:25 +0700 (+07) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Mark Linimon , Alexey Dokuchaev References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> Cc: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, Brooks Davis , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:30:18 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181004142644.GA17270@lonesome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,LOCAL_FROM,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Report: * -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record * 2.6 LOCAL_FROM From my domains X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on hz.grosbein.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:30:33 -0000 04.10.2018 21:26, Mark Linimon wrote: > You can buy used core i5 laptops for around $20 if you shop around. And plus even more for overseas delivery. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:42:30 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38BD10B700C; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from spork@bway.net) Received: from smtp2.bway.net (smtp2.v6.bway.net [IPv6:2607:d300:1::28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 845557F574; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from spork@bway.net) Received: from frankentosh.sporklab.com (pool-108-53-194-153.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [108.53.194.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: spork@bway.net) by smtp2.bway.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6626095853; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Charles Sprickman In-Reply-To: <20181004155355.6C2A51571@spqr.komquats.com> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:42:19 -0400 Cc: Rick Macklem , Warner Losh , Alexey Dokuchaev , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org" , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <11826345-1B82-46CB-894C-E567725F8EB8@bway.net> References: <20181004155355.6C2A51571@spqr.komquats.com> To: Cy Schubert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:42:30 -0000 > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Cy Schubert = wrote: >=20 > I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), = nfe, and sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory = for which I can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath = too. I also have a stack of old stuff (almost certain there=E2=80=99s at = least one vx in there - VORTEX power!). If anyone needs cards, please = contact me and if I have it, I=E2=80=99ll send it your way. Also have = some old video (AGP), sound (ISA), SATA (PCI-X) and other total rando = stuff. One place I see the older cards are in some firewall boxes that are in = SFF boxes. Old PCI 10/100 NICs are more than adequate for backup WAN = purposes (xDSL, cable, etc.) and some of the SFF boxes have one pci-e = plus one pci slot and that=E2=80=99s it. Charles >=20 > --- > Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. > Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. > Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. >=20 > Cy Schubert > or > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > --- >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Macklem > Sent: 04/10/2018 07:41 > To: Warner Losh; Alexey Dokuchaev > Cc: FreeBSD Net; freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE = Mailing List; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers >=20 > Warner Losh wrote: > [lots of stuff snipped] >> That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert = to >> iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the = stupid, >> common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, = not >> dozens. >=20 > I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both. > Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been = converted, > so I can see what needs to be done? >=20 > Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree. >=20 > [more stuff snipped] >=20 > rick >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:54:24 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DA810B7671; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F95C7FE38; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE431483F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:54:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94IsMYw090725 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:54:22 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w94IsMpA090724; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:54:22 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Brooks Davis cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-reply-to: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <90722.1538679262.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:54:22 +0000 Message-ID: <90723.1538679262@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:54:25 -0000 -------- >FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) Can I open a FCP to rename FCP to FBS (for FreeBSD BikeShed) ? Guys... most if not all of these emails could have been sent to directly Brooks without Cc'ing four mailing lists. Then Brooks could revise his tallies and scores to match informed reality and _then_ we could discuss if the criteria were sound on the list(s). Poul-Henning (singing an almost 20 year old refrain again) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 19:14:02 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3E210B814A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:14:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [18.222.6.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E520D80BAE; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:14:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (unknown [18.188.142.31]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9471F16E65; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:14:00 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:13:58 +0000 From: Mark Linimon To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004191358.GB31270@lonesome.com> References: <20181004151720.GC74146@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810041534.w94FYUJ5006835@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810041534.w94FYUJ5006835@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 19:14:02 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:34:30AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > What I am finding very bothersome at this point is that a great > miss understanding has been conveyed onto the users by the > statement that "core has discussed this and we plan to proceed > as proposed" I really don't understand why people don't assume good faith anymore. I read it as "core has discussed setting up an FCP". Warner could have just posted something to -current saying "I'm going to delete these on xyz2019 unless they're updated to use iflib." It would have been a lot less work and stress on his part than trying to do things The Right Way. Having people look through every single word in every single post looking for hidden meanings is one of the things that is absolutely taking all the fun out of FreeBSD. Frankly if I wanted to have everything gone over with a fine-tooth-comb I'd go back into the workforce. tl;dr: no, thanks. I liked the old "shut up and code" days better. ob. disclaimer: don't assume that Warner and I agree on much of anything, but IMHO he's trying to go about things the right way this timee. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 19:26:51 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260C610B848B; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:26:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@vnode.se) Received: from oden.vnode.se (oden.vnode.se [45.76.82.188]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "oden.vnode.se", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6BD48109B; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:26:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@vnode.se) Received: from ymer.vnode.se (62-20-154-136-no280.tbcn.telia.com [62.20.154.136]) by oden.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF8A11F62B; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:26:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:26:48 +0200 From: Joel Dahl To: Warner Losh Cc: Eugene Grosbein , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004192648.GA5522@ymer.vnode.se> Mail-Followup-To: Warner Losh , Eugene Grosbein , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <71975da2-af36-7886-47f2-3f630ee67073@grosbein.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 19:26:51 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:23:17PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein wrote: > > > 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as > > it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports > > in my home router). > > > > Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards > after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver. I mentioned vx. Working fine here: vx0: <3COM 3C590 Etherlink III PCI> port 0x1100-0x111f irq 20 at device 0.0 on pci16 -- Joel From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 19:36:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6519310B8953; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:36:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACD14816A1; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:36:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 89Q5gNr1qwyxU89Q6gCRZg; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:36:24 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NPJhBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=smKx5t2vBNcA:10 a=lRtnlflVAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=nOql8xjiBvw8Set5z38A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=203WYvXZLHx0qCticVN7:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 021F619BF; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w94Ja45H004525; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id w94Ja4EK004522; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201810041936.w94Ja4EK004522@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Charles Sprickman cc: Cy Schubert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Rick Macklem , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org" , Warner Losh Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: Message from Charles Sprickman via freebsd-fcp of "Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:42:19 -0400." <11826345-1B82-46CB-894C-E567725F8EB8@bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:36:04 -0700 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfN7RKI/ywlF4s0JK8Z152uABEeYEXH828NnSGltI10c66vdrs4+xuKLjfjHhnBUFe2odxrlE5ySLWinZwyLPippihdAB8L4uugFN1pn+ux85wPNf3OUl kOnXgCju79BdpELB9XlzbxEUbsmUntNx4c87Z0aIzyio0vLumYlmip1vLVBswQ6TjQCmdXnhFSFBEH7rp0eu/dl24GoENxXQKqF3Cf7QXAPweHdpeBCGkh80 gRpG5o2tvFRPJEmBO7nPMB6nNelLHPsMGQWYrcOOS7HgQQbBH7OASSlUMCWoXCjinpGam54347+B+/Gg0g1dKG7PDkvHPzSTY7cGcQvlQAsFuBI35JEdlKqX kXI1daQpiMggpBSih5dtmzf2gQsvSjLrQNZWdk7PIR8/HcP+4i8= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 19:36:27 -0000 In message <11826345-1B82-46CB-894C-E567725F8EB8@bway.net>, Charles Sprickman v ia freebsd-fcp writes: > > > > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, a > nd sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I > can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too. > > I also have a stack of old stuff (almost certain there’s at least one vx in > there - VORTEX power!). If anyone needs cards, please contact me and if I h > ave it, I’ll send it your way. Also have some old video (AGP), sound (ISA) > , SATA (PCI-X) and other total rando stuff. > > One place I see the older cards are in some firewall boxes that are in SFF bo > xes. Old PCI 10/100 NICs are more than adequate for backup WAN purposes (xDSL > , cable, etc.) and some of the SFF boxes have one pci-e plus one pci slot and > that’s it. My firewall has most of them. It has 2 sk(4), 2 nfe(4), fxp(4), and xl(4), with xl and fxp connected to my ISP and the others on my internal network. My testbed has sk(4), nfe(4), and dc(4), connected to my DMZ, for ipfilter testing. My main build machine and my current laptop have sk(4), nfe(4), bge(4), while my i386 testbed (an old laptop) has rl(4). I have a spare motherboard (in case something breaks, while I purchase a replacement) with nv(4). All parts, including CPUs, are interchangeable. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 19:54:37 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237D210B90D5; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:54:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from srs0=uily=mq=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B065F821A4; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:54:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from srs0=uily=mq=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42R3W83DbCz2fjRy; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:54:28 -0700 Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <15FCEA6B-C017-40C5-8193-8C7AA3F563CC@mail.sermon-archive.info> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> To: Brooks Davis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 19:54:37 -0000 I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see = that listed in either category. None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet = as it has not been released. Also there are some with rl. Those are = add-on boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive = effort as the machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would = require reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired). I also have two production machines with ue devices. There is no = provision for replacing them. They are running an early version of 12 = as 11 doesn't run on those machines. I don't see ue listed in either = category. -- Doug > On 3 October 2018, at 14:05, Brooks Davis wrote: >=20 >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< >=20 > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD = 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. >=20 > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: >=20 > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe >=20 > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: >=20 > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl >=20 > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will = be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform = usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) >=20 > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. >=20 > The full FCP-0101 is included below. >=20 > -- Brooks >=20 > --- > authors: Brooks Davis > state: feedback > --- >=20 > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers >=20 > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them = before > FreeBSD 13. >=20 > ## Problem Statement >=20 > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management = (`ioctl`) > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. >=20 > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. >=20 > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). >=20 > ## Proposed Solution >=20 > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. = This > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those = changes > to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete = deprecated > devices. >=20 > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the = exception > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed = on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will = be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform = usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) >=20 > ### Exceptions to removal >=20 > Device | Reason > -------|------------------------------------------------- > ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards > fxp | Popular device long recommended by the project. > dc | Popular device for CardBus card. > hme | Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. > le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. > sis | Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641. > vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards. > xl | Popular device for CardBus card. >=20 > Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round. >=20 > ### Device to be removed >=20 > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe >=20 > ## Final Disposition >=20 > TBD From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 21:06:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D5E10BAE33; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:06:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vtr.rulingia.com (vtr.rulingia.com [IPv6:2001:19f0:5801:ebe:5400:1ff:fe53:30fd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vtr.rulingia.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2514E8510F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:06:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from server.rulingia.com (ppp59-167-167-3.static.internode.on.net [59.167.167.3]) by vtr.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94L6ZWA015005 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:06:46 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w94L6TSr097472 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:06:29 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w94L6TSU097471; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:06:29 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:06:28 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181004210628.GC21091@server.rulingia.com> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="A6N2fC+uXW/VQSAv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 21:06:56 -0000 --A6N2fC+uXW/VQSAv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2018-Oct-04 08:44:11 +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: >Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly >is the burden here? As various others have stated, this isn't true. All the code in FreeBSD has an ongoing maintenance cost and is an impediment to adding new features. There is no point in spending valuable developer effort to update drivers and test them with unusual/obsolete hardware unless those drivers are going to actually be used. >Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill >non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff? That language is uncalled for. >We offer probably >the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink >one of the few areas where we shine. WTF?! Supporting NICs that no-one uses doesn't benefit anyone. No-one is talking about removing NICs that are in active use. >ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers. Those netbooks are more than a decade old now and I don't expect many are still functional. Will people still expect to use them with FreeBSD 13 in 5 years time? >As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no >one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10. So how about making this >proposal cover only 10 cards, What is the purpose in keeping unused FastEthernet cards in the tree? >if you can't resist the itch to remove >something from the tree? Again, that language is uncalled for. --=20 Peter Jeremy --A6N2fC+uXW/VQSAv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE7rKYbDBnHnTmXCJ+FqWXoOSiCzQFAlu2gNRfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEVF QjI5ODZDMzA2NzFFNzRFNjVDMjI3RTE2QTU5N0EwRTRBMjBCMzQACgkQFqWXoOSi CzRLMQ/7BHZCxWvC61I7bvv2AtbR4AfOz+Ei84NDcdKie4wNSdTn8w9JHqyEdolj cL49a1chwzS25dJIqpcj0wXM9j+1v0ed8+UYl+JYMVqD7qVdsyKIi66ceg8nnH1i flO/cyBrFfSAs2k1HZd1+BqJg2phvM0utK5MxMrYNqFlFRpfQXu0HnZweyBV7Of0 Nwk4ooKhFTgy+dgi9QVSNmfodD0VOh6J35ZXiSQAsDgtDohv9oliFfbf5FdlzW9t PbjPwhyTbultFQ4rNrJwM05fR2tTFIfMm84P2W5nZS/MMeTKsDjDMad2ePlwL3TX mU2K3f0HN1hfA6LTKiRl9fcFqzKSRQszE9RQ1hjW/rkk2JS2KkpMY2biScONAOmh YhT6kUMQORS5BI3YZxYnHCgGNNVltmXGCgFQBasBaf1Mb456vo2tb3lCEGRaUvi9 Uiv6TkCOWsZHSeMuAVTlWHyaMOnflLH+cu890Ox5FwTACLy6oA4zwSb/fDvOLmn6 CV+R0VEiEze0sUNPIhPPqpWBc5PwuFMnjCyleFeQuMigCOb0JHV6BljJ9XpqQY43 dYxB1HyE+8vPUgqvJBadoh7iVXHOQ74T2XacrU571WY5T/TdEBGaza1vaYKic/td gF8wDjOk8iVpfkvAqTh/ea9Mj6Pn7Gb7I6UAwqW4wD85YAShtxo= =qZrA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --A6N2fC+uXW/VQSAv-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 14:46:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C6F10ADA11; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:46:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2034E83015; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52C221.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.194.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w95Drmv9034754 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 13:53:52 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w95DrhMR076193; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:53:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w95DrVkC072450; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:53:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810051353.w95DrVkC072450@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Brooks Davis cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:05:16 -0000." <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:53:31 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 14:46:25 -0000 > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one using xe or ex. That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril. Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers, stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc. Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping live code is offensive. Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ... until their nets don't work. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed. http://exitbrexit.uk From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 15:05:16 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E770F10AE2E9; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@fubar.geek.nz) Received: from fry.fubar.geek.nz (fry.fubar.geek.nz [139.59.165.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1B683C67; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@fubar.geek.nz) Received: from [IPv6:2001:630:212:2a8:fd98:5c4c:514a:52ac] (unknown [IPv6:2001:630:212:2a8:fd98:5c4c:514a:52ac]) by fry.fubar.geek.nz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D3B84EC9D; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:04:38 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Andrew Turner In-Reply-To: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:04:36 +0100 Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> To: Brooks Davis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:05:16 -0000 > On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis wrote: >=20 >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< >=20 > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD = 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. >=20 > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: >=20 > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I=E2=80=99ve seen it in = the Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it=E2=80=99s = also in the other models, but don=E2=80=99t have a license for them to = check. Andrew [1] = https://developer.arm.com/products/system-design/fixed-virtual-platforms From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 15:13:36 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE1310AE904 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:13:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D39842A2 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:13:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id l25-v6so10944699ioj.0 for ; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:13:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2YXOf4VyPauBAfRAGu6+u4Z/ZAW74+nHlykIdp+IS4w=; b=bIhCsEh0fGUDbJBl7/EbA2uDFB0vGFVglRMVCaVYBp9UUqdOit2iJg8OSkshv7qe70 R1o5O56IxrLsYOGlCE+FK7RH3itEgvA8tvXd/ZrdBRiAcCaVrpZ9nOWO59zaTl34xYVs UXUZfsZ9RS/B7BCM834EPIxKewvHtnQh+T3kczm7Guatjr0GcS2Ph8QZg9yBY3+u4BtH gE+HloSwfXhhmpTLwg/ND8cRQnyNCjWDByVGddf2dViwCuezEGSsIs5B96/M61AvthDf BEI3+tppIK9a9f2Fe13Pt+K7CbBkeprMD3Q3fsAYs8ZY19RuY+z0Fg49rFHl97N4BX5P TZvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2YXOf4VyPauBAfRAGu6+u4Z/ZAW74+nHlykIdp+IS4w=; b=X4Wj9UzamGTqMIVfDQ937HJnbTR9BgISOvxHei13BclOq4qwqu9po1guPvI2HmHWyv ef36WaT66L/s8iUXl8bJjHYdKuHnCd64wA262N7RodT5nXvEaDXLFA+vStT6rW9P/euC vtA4QghsDAUPS06kbRr77sR9eSmcDM+skIBCmZBGd2UCen54j46LIRcllWP6/GHReYOF FY7oQFURsr76QtKU7La6ZHh1OeQ2k5eZQwEurxFc7igwVdBjHPr4rrwwdh0uamkgBi9p S+/D2Kk+N+A4W3vvBD0Lbw9pL2fAdfOJr9dhwK3y89E7/EN1wtkZPRdejSpNLLnDV04t NZrg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohpMCdyJv332vwJXjW2Q7o4PMPky9YCWUNDbDRVfuoC5YYBWfrJ NJz9lm5aCCiFQZbtct6R5pon/T6BP28iRh2N9mciNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61U2HQUUqOp0CJJkJfbz8A1HS0npwHJcowFlpxqMvNBlgHeJR11FrZclRinFXicG4KbOsAbrXV6+Y3wtZUo4SM= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr7869274ioa.299.1538752413806; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:13:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810051353.w95DrVkC072450@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201810051353.w95DrVkC072450@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:13:22 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:13:36 -0000 On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one > using xe or ex. That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril. > Later in the thread rl was removed from the list. What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no reports of people using the latter two in about a decade. Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers, > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc. > You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of maintenance yourself. > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping > live code is offensive. Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ... > until their nets don't work. > I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs. There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words will not. I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware that's no longer used. Warner > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, > Munich > Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits > in EU > Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum > needed. > http://exitbrexit.uk > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fcp > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-fcp-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 15:18:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CC510AEC07; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E126484519; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:18:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w95FIPCq014811; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:18:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id w95FIP3r014802; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:18:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201810051518.w95FIP3r014802@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 16:18:22 +0100 Organization: Dyslexic Fish Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, brooks@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004120626.GA39489@elch.exwg.net> In-Reply-To: <20181004120626.GA39489@elch.exwg.net> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Fri, 05 Oct 2018 16:18:25 +0100 (BST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:18:27 -0000 Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig. I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc driver: alc0: port 0x2000-0x207f mem 0xe0500000-0xe053ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 cheers, jamie From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 15:19:15 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D44910AECE7 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:19:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 912DF84699 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:19:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id n18-v6so10935253ioa.9 for ; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=snscEp4dM3BJgbDdGyBYAuQVJDz/Wzzg3BsRrMpgQMI=; b=XXN0Khz0cPFy1I/z/NEYiyI1A7EG/tPB4Te1Q6uHtxfuJXmNesqsUMquUDTpZSR2NF vvtwdTJwdD416DyTj3XLf6noq9WcoIBXKzUyZ3efcYq9WeZfBd86bozlBv+OOhup05DF JC7qx9DEhRMAh+nzYtqFNwxoRugtNxqirKCWqzf5hRRIBXNjdWY7aKtxmmsVzC/MEX4Y S57iIWeWLf1bbSUg2WLnO2J0EKI6JN+csFshYiXxEkWxlIIaXFkP/9KpFOPzL3vxsAFz Zgc2bW2WmOjVXu9AdzGHOsmHCZLaetIcTx60xs9VNDF5fICPCGd9loDgG0jyad3ilX85 2zgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=snscEp4dM3BJgbDdGyBYAuQVJDz/Wzzg3BsRrMpgQMI=; b=WYEJwMYA59B/XCiIgZkLL1Kd4lLbhHeaV3cO3WhhHqNfYKM7cggv3G1PDiEnEARv+u tEa4Sqn7WjldAPeBRTZo+geeAdSN81E3Vz56Ezip8gnApktncxXafkT8wUKSP33fkvDZ JuGjU+UzdfbFPoofGoleQdmeA7D1q/UKgb4riRTbrjTDXNvMeqo3S3QeYf4rRxgOJbdL 8w6gFjqEichinWR7eIjHO8AGONoJQaxavqFe/owd44NWnvollkkVQgcbRqjuC0B2qVhX lagsqkS1LMaSTHvhSFHHziKX4io0uvquH7LSN3QyqJqet/C6NLDLNiWXwbAmCkJe/Z2Z AJXg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojVRZqTCrSpf/I48llNAFvAPaFI/lY2OpNRNRc6I4eahsdjBfJY FJ89nPQXmzrFhIv+1W1txCqF8c4Q4pbUPmk2Rr2Dsw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61jXpOSGyLgpR1pvuPa3nO2BFWPZ9cQ2ssSESrzF2xhZ+bNoH0fVPUc9YBrKNj6R32qJKruLeLeOkY744Eufm8= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e715:: with SMTP id b21-v6mr8539518ioh.37.1538752753680; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:19:02 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Andrew Turner Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:19:15 -0000 On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:05 AM Andrew Turner wrote: > > > On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis wrote: > > > >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I=E2=80=99ve seen it in = the > Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it=E2=80=99s also i= n the > other models, but don=E2=80=99t have a license for them to check. > Do we currently support those simulators? I see it is in the VERSATILEPB simulator that QEMU provides. Does that still work? Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 15:21:36 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DE610AF20E; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@fubar.geek.nz) Received: from fry.fubar.geek.nz (fry.fubar.geek.nz [139.59.165.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C8984BAE; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@fubar.geek.nz) Received: from [IPv6:2001:630:212:2a8:fd98:5c4c:514a:52ac] (unknown [IPv6:2001:630:212:2a8:fd98:5c4c:514a:52ac]) by fry.fubar.geek.nz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96CE84E76A; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:21:05 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Turner Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:21:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" To: Warner Losh References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:21:37 -0000 > On 5 Oct 2018, at 16:19, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:05 AM Andrew Turner > wrote: >=20 > > On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis > wrote: > >=20 > >>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > >=20 > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md = ) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD = 12 > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining = and > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are = solictiting > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > >=20 > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > >=20 > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe >=20 > smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I=E2=80=99ve seen it = in the Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it=E2=80=99s = also in the other models, but don=E2=80=99t have a license for them to = check. >=20 > Do we currently support those simulators? I see it is in the = VERSATILEPB simulator that QEMU provides. Does that still work? Yes, I boot FreeBSD/arm64 on them in a local Jenkins instance. Andrew From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 17:27:15 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDE810B1E97; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:27:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schmiedgen@gmx.net) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0E7B89A91; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schmiedgen@gmx.net) Received: from [192.168.10.5] ([62.246.110.10]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M8MyE-1flqMQ2h50-00vuJN; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:27:00 +0200 Received: from [192.168.10.5] ([62.246.110.10]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M8MyE-1flqMQ2h50-00vuJN; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:27:00 +0200 Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Warner Losh , Ian Lepore Cc: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> From: Michael Schmiedgen Message-ID: <5520e82c-6fb1-ab97-3b3b-e410c11e54f3@gmx.net> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:26:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:DJ9ya0Ka38TjABBizMaDRCg/aXHT+hV0MXw3VzGbRMtxFFOmJRL MuHjqCrRnh1tJavOMKj4+ZsI3+X0wga5MSoaJHTv5TugLlY0fLSMrptAkJuhNyoVlAPRf91 y/fpQVIvLez8lYnUgngD77hJPhbLnXFXx+SBtwoVcISgdQrE1I6xsFcsjjo2hA4YOd8Qu+w 1cURZx9Gm8xbVQWZSQ37g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:aP/NgBRi7sY=:oQ3LEE80icAZrSExZZZ/qd 09O2Rys4YlwX0muzt4JCAawtdLk/cclnJXg/cJIPhJ+S49VaSMuD0CQMGKti6BGhu0aiRoOl7 o5n3nQ1ZO2yk6amP8GNloIlpBeUySo+9B/QEk0KVNcM81KMojl9bi+qxO/EneD+UQ3hSnvGQB lqP/J2AJA9DeaTC+nagaz6HzJsQqJd7bsj17fL45Emy/31QLB2+d8CitG92O5NhWCJueEnLGC sl4WK5Rz42dVQNfxhjNUNLJDozKIKxKVCS7JR99i9UFmfV+U1angLXumpeE/h3R9319rahH8l icnVJqgaABkNta5I8YI54cJgFUobmXFU+jlDihUHiAs1/jdHhTwZ7PCLUhjG7+mQNRCmmBAd/ FXTbB84z++8fPlsI0gaqkpwVjoA4O991fLDRf8m77+cAr0zltcc3RGVHNutFXc9NX//XqroUh 3581ikKYfOMA1oqbl4S1xWW1zC0aCW4FRbDIWm85FLzT0X7tebzrDkgCufUmfVwr7CrjBY5mQ rsKDg65pIHiX6Cxe9+IARYOvycuZqJY/nctYlE7sBvgyDNGXbqlhDAm9KQLxo+YLt+w2Owh9f aht6Au32fWkJ1wFhZ2bFmV6ndwv9Gr1+9GxjHQ7RU7VdU3TXoHdZtK9DxUgbH2QD2PqCnBk6x E/lVICWspPW9F9JjMHCJ9nwh3k7NweNM7V1T1LHA5a2X7tEk9jF5S0T/jOVsSdv6pWu15ZowD NoddrOuK+SatpcDwGgpD6RedWwuAufMI5o8z0s3plF5x8l0ypZC1J28pc0cyO2fnZGIyEwAZ6 SZ8ezWezlzgvEi8UEQ+zsgkSALpUCoOgVy1QVnmQYBzxNHnNo8= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 17:27:15 -0000 > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. vr(4) here in im PCEngines ALIX board running OPNsense. Michael From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 19:41:00 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7756E10B4C4C; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:41:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ricera10@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it1-f182.google.com (mail-it1-f182.google.com [209.85.166.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 161348E028; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:40:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ricera10@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it1-f182.google.com with SMTP id w200-v6so4328574itc.4; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=E5/LxQQSjOahvfGaMjpFO1+BiLIs5QUXWpyzwAfQOpY=; b=ec0It7U42yvjsJpnbSMKkU2oBIUTEgeEdMc+aJGiiL0IbGNWqEx0vTVzj/3R/j3QZf HtUR9DflMfrT8za0jxfqSGRLVYdmIQZhREJPXq1Tpj5aNZ2PIhFXH/Mw2KrDKUGOEXno RAVEOv58JYnf6O8SLyMKjNtqi+cCQaGa8g7afISRiuGXdsxpySndmIGU9IRPeTMJ7DI5 iXLDG5zw1nBfE0SwIkTsl9N5X7gin5MnLX4+h6A6jD6Lczj5Rr/j5uFLOaH2ZInAnNxA FQeeUrrA/3YOy+W3WHoHLkb8hi3eN0gTTTAlpQ/HD25bkVwIF5iYv+ASXHLJmPODC1ot hc+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohOqpFP00paotcVMSwKsvxNK6Tru3c5wvX6m0hgdc9ubNKw9wMY E8zKezE+GXm3esdMDiNUHnB7FDRppGo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62KroD9qBHB/BqwIORukAyu5bxRv4RbSKgsr1V6sfsGWndgV7+zSLBFL7/xRNV3Vah6K5YSWw== X-Received: by 2002:a02:a98e:: with SMTP id q14-v6mr9644985jam.109.1538768453013; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-f54.google.com (mail-io1-f54.google.com. [209.85.166.54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l2-v6sm2762673ioj.59.2018.10.05.12.40.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-f54.google.com with SMTP id p4-v6so11564142iom.3; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d611:: with SMTP id w17-v6mr9194673ioa.216.1538768451148; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <5520e82c-6fb1-ab97-3b3b-e410c11e54f3@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <5520e82c-6fb1-ab97-3b3b-e410c11e54f3@gmx.net> From: Eric Joyner Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:40:13 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: schmiedgen@gmx.net Cc: imp@bsdimp.com, Ian Lepore , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, michelle@sorbs.net, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:41:00 -0000 Being an Ethernet driver maintainer and being at most 4 years old when Fast Ethernet was introduced makes me biased to the point of irrelevant here, but I absolutely am all for drivers for old 100M-only devices being removed. I just can't really understand the support. I'd be incredibly annoyed if anything I owned was 100M-at-most (like my Wi-Fi router), and Intel is already dropping support left and right for 100M speeds on newer things. Maybe it just comes down to money. - Eric On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:28 AM Michael Schmiedgen wrote: > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > vr(4) here in im PCEngines ALIX board running OPNsense. > > Michael > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 20:57:15 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503C910B68E6; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:57:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D202B70C81; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:57:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52C221.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.194.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w95Kv2Xq047363 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:57:07 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w95KuuPN078893; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:56:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w95KucIo012200; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:56:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810052056.w95KucIo012200@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Warner Losh cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Fri, 05 Oct 2018 09:13:22 -0600." Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 22:56:38 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 20:57:15 -0000 Thanks for the reply warner, Warner Losh wrote: > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one > > using xe or ex. That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril. > > > > Later in the thread rl was removed from the list. That's a partial relief. > What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no > reports of people using the latter two in about a decade. I can look more later, but for a quick partial reply: I keep an incomplete ad hoc occasionaly/rarely updated list of logs, useful for odd questions such as this, so I can run quick checks cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep ed0: * */* | grep port # ... vi dual film flip lapn loft slim wind cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ed0: * */* dual film flip lapl loft park rain snow wall wind cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep xe0: * */* lapd lapo cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep xe0: * */* nothing cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep ex0: * */* nothing cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ex0: * */* nothing Hosts above are custom PCs no model numbers, but these are standard laptops: xe: lapd: Digital HiNote Ultra2000 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/digital/ ed: lapl: Toshiba Libretto 70CT http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/toshiba/libretto/ ed: lapn: Dell Latitude XPi P133ST http://berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/dell_latitude_xpi_p133st xe: lapo: Novatech (MiTAC) 8355 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ ( PS ed0 is also used by Hewlett Packard Network ScanJet 5 a multi sheet feeder with FreeBSD built inside, however that's stuck on a seriously old release, still a great device though - http://berklix.com/scanjet/ ) PS My master kernel config from pre 4.11 to current: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/jhs/sys/amd64/conf/HOLZ So quick summary: ex: I dont seem to use ed: I use on many of my hosts, not just those above, & I have some spare to stick in to any PCI or ISA box I work on if needed. ed & xe I also have on pcmcia & cardbus, so they move around between laptops. > Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers, > > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade > > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc. > > > > You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of > maintenance yourself. Didn't know drivers could be farmed out to ports/, sounds like a recipe for breakage sooner or later. > > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping > > live code is offensive. Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions > > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except > > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ... > > until their nets don't work. > > > > I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to > 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs. > There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced > and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to > show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes > non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will > be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case > that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you > look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made > compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future > to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words > will not. > > I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone > is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing > with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data > for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these > periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware > that's no longer used. > > Warner Yes, needs careful balance. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed. http://exitbrexit.uk From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 21:53:16 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F4B10B7EE2; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 21:53:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE0897307F; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 21:53:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id ECD2E3C475F; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 21:53:08 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 21:53:08 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: Jamie Landeg-Jones Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, brooks@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181005215308.GA93171@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004120626.GA39489@elch.exwg.net> <201810051518.w95FIP3r014802@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810051518.w95FIP3r014802@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 21:53:16 -0000 --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 04:18:22PM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote: > Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig. >=20 > I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc dr= iver: >=20 > alc0: port 0x2000-0x207f mem 0xe05000= 00-0xe053ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 There are no plans to touch such drivers. -- Brooks --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbt91EAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAiiIH/0snI3OvAyCkC4phGfs7EQV1 8Zpn6NUb7HPnkUAMYCVfAh+sXmn3Mc7d7jMQoXDHgWAKS6ly2o6U07tpZUDf1lj8 i5jHlzikKveqpwZDBjWqy/wpAVJsFTec7jhTBuY22d+MnRX7GhcOljq4GoPSujpV mZC8N6+DRLOpFio7NjEPh4YcOxMmj6osO4CblR2owWI9AKqpROTDZ8EAHtCseSpe 3zXEJYBkXEL0qE52oapcbXd7pdi2Fq9Cr1QYb+hsqJXzanh0N4T9Q7O2mFF57CBp qaX06ogTSZMAXbQRgsHXM96MUN6Y2cpTpjCqgEZiR1iR9OOcJKmFOcMcfBKurWQ= =Lu2i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Oct 6 03:06:04 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE3010C1E4D; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 03:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A050C7D489; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 03:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w96361xF084586; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 04:06:01 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id w96360U3084585; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 04:06:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201810060306.w96360U3084585@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2018 04:05:59 +0100 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: jamie@catflap.org, brooks@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, brooks@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> <20181004120626.GA39489@elch.exwg.net> <201810051518.w95FIP3r014802@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> <20181005215308.GA93171@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> In-Reply-To: <20181005215308.GA93171@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Sat, 06 Oct 2018 04:06:02 +0100 (BST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2018 03:06:04 -0000 Brooks Davis wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 04:18:22PM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote: > > Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig. > > > > I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc driver: > > > > alc0: port 0x2000-0x207f mem 0xe0500000-0xe053ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 > > There are no plans to touch such drivers. Yep, sorry I wasn't clear. That's what I meant - I was responding to someone who was worried that the support was being dropped for 100Mbps cards. cheers, Jamie