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[71.136.150.27]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w3sm2969049ywc.45.2019.04.28.12.52.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Apr 2019 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) From: To: , , , , , Subject: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 Message-ID: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdT9+kYS/QrrZeloRTSTN/rqnNT4jQ== Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B7AFE72DBA X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=U35id6EI; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.99)[ip: (-9.44), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.19), asn: 15169(-2.27), country: US(-0.06)]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.966,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:52:28 -0000 FreeBSD Community, I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and 13-current using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images which will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly. Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and let us know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page going forward. Additionally, I will be hosting a Package Base working group at BSDCan 2019, and welcome user and developer attendance to discuss this and other ongoing package work: https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase FAQ ------------------------------------------------------------- https://trueos.github.io/pkgbase-docs/ Download Links ------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD 12-STABLE: https://pkg.trueos.org/iso/freebsd12-pkgbase/ FreeBSD 13-CURRENT: https://pkg.trueos.org/iso/freebsd-pkgbase/ -- Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 12:08:19 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D703D158A9D6; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:08:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8FB774495; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:08:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x3TC88dU068353 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:08:12 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua x3TC88dU068353 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x3TC88XF068352; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:08:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:08:08 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: kris@ixsystems.com Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-ID: <20190429120808.GI85201@kib.kiev.ua> References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,URIBL_RED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on tom.home X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:08:19 -0000 Cc: list trimmed to relevant. Very long essey below, be warned. On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 03:52:21PM -0400, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: > FreeBSD Community, > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and 13-current > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images which > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly. > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and let us > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page going > forward. > > > > Additionally, I will be hosting a Package Base working group at BSDCan 2019, > and welcome user and developer attendance to discuss this and other ongoing > package work: > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase > > > > > > FAQ > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > https://trueos.github.io/pkgbase-docs/ > I do not know what are design decisions for trueos pkgbase are, but I do know something about in-tree split and why some packaging decisions where made. I cannot attend your WG, but I believe the reasoning used for the in-tree is important enough to represent it intact from the source. I have to start with some explanatory long text to put it into the proper perspective. There are two knots of interdependinces which are critical for correctness of any upgrade where the target system cannot be simply discarded on failure: 1. C runtime 2. Minimal boot path to prompt. Let me elaborate both, starting from point 1, which is typically very obscure despite having the fundamental nature for anything related to upgrades. The basic execution environment for any program executed by the FreeBSD kernel is formed by combination of kernel' syscall interface and some system userspace code which makes the expected environment over the bare-bone image state after execve. The environment is typically named C runtime environment since C language ABI is directly tied into it, and normal C programs only get whatever is provided by the C runtime unless additional libraries are linked in. Trully, it is not just C runtime, any other execution environment on top of the OS is based on this one, but since almost every 'advanced' language runtime is backed by C language and its runtime, the name stuck. FreeBSD C runtime, arguably, is provided by the following four objects: /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 /lib/libc.so.7 /lib/libthr.so.3 /lib/libm.so.5 There, we do *guarantee* that the external ABI of the whole pack of these four objects is backward compatible, i.e. if the binary was compiled against set if base libraries at earlier date (may be also on earlier branch), then the binary behaviour would be same when executed on newer C runtime pack. This is not trivial to achieve, besides technical measures that helps there, like backward-compatible syscall interface, symbol versioning, providing fall-back code for older interface, a lot of overhead in the development is enforced, like carefull reviews of the changes, the policy and related discipline of versioning, following published ABI standards, and so on. But, internal ABI of the C runtime pack, i.e. interfaces which make rtld work with libc and libthr, or way by which libthr, when loaded, makes libc thread-aware, are not stable, and more, they are often changed in backward-incompatible way. Requiring backward-compatibility there would stop our ability to evolve the system. Answering some questions in advance, yes, rtld delves into libc, libthr patches libc on load, libc has hooks to control some libthr behaviour. The only provision that we make is that ld-elf.so.1 is required to work with older libc/libthr combination, but even then libc and libthr must be built from the same sources with the same options set. Now, returning to pkgbase, if you look at what libs are packed into clibs, you see: ld-elf.so.1 libc.so.7 (and modules like iconv tables or nss, if any) libthr.so.3 libdl.so.1 libgcc{, _eh, _s}.so.1 libm.so.5 libedit.so.7 libncurses{, w}.so.8 libc++.so.1 It adds very popular libs like libncurses/libedit, and C++ runtime. The basic reasoning is that this package is small and chances of something going wrong while installing it are small as result. Put it other way, the small clibs package organization makes it highly probable that system is left in the consistent state (either all new libs, or all old libs) after the upgrade, whetever the outcome is. If the C runtime pack is not split from the whole 700MB+ update blob, libthr update has almost certain chance to occur long after or before libc update, so failures do tend to leave inconsistent rtld/libc/libthr set. At best, it gives you strange glitches, at worst you get unusable system that cannot be repaired without external media. Now, the second item, the minimal boot path. By definition, it consists of everything that is required to get bare-bone shell prompt in single user mode, and where user can repair failed upgrade. Arguably, it should also include the tools to configure the network and fix filesystems. So it should consists of loader (including forth/lua scripts) kernel C runtime /sbin/init /bin/sh newfs/fsck/tunefs for UFS zfs/zfspool and libs for ZFS ifconfig/route/ping In this set, zfs and network management tools must be synced with the kernel, since ABI of the management syscalls is not guaranteed to be stable even on stable branches. The above brain dump is at least partial enumeration of things that were discussed between me and Glen when Glen created the current in-tree packaging code. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 12:12:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B705F158AD69; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:12:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.blih.net", Issuer "mail.blih.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E2BC74999; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:12:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 87105727; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:12:40 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=Ms5XXVorARtlOGUgvbKshdkOgo8=; b=V+JgettZt96XaRWjvJhsyyRzWvlD 7skvprZYj3ZfcbeGVWktzytAYg8KBd7jgnruNjnWkee85fZ1yd0YlDwuEHtiSHxv 4OeeMbBHEl1kCivSHZgY73Jl+KaY6NF5AenaxAuDXCWTGHci9rDkgOlUCp3b5c0v fVd/bs0WPMFG3xo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s= mail; b=fLgukhsrzDainCJvVhz22KowORFQow/wQuiVQ11LCCN7X0T2vuVwDRQc iUZgVYCFdZKKUx4jcjx2rwtoznm7DkhA9IoVMVoIEnT7QIIpNLWer4Mb+XXU34o2 4iuQsnJIA9Dol0Uksx7Va8zdaBu4NJ10mDBd4vktUSCjyx5GWaU= Received: from knuckles.blih.net (ip-9.net-89-3-105.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.105.9]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 024e27e4 TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:12:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:12:39 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Cc: , , , , , Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-Id: <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7E2BC74999 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mail header.b=V+JgettZ; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.177.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.41 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.56)[-0.561,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.83.177.182/32]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bidouilliste.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.05)[-0.054,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mx-backup.blih.net,mail.blih.net]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.947,0]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.38)[ip: (-0.89), ipnet: 212.83.160.0/19(2.97), asn: 12876(-0.17), country: FR(-0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.160.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:12:50 -0000 Hi Kris, On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 wrote: > FreeBSD Community, > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and 13-current > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images which > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly. > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and let us > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page going > forward. > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is a supposition, I haven't personally tested). - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. - Since you reduced the granularity on the userland bits it would mean that if we use your implementation for -p updates we would download the whole userland packages instead of just updating the package that was patched. For example with pkgbase, updating from 12.0 to 12.0p1 will only update the FreeBSD-runtime package. Yes this package is still big to download when you compare to what have changed but until pkg(8) have delta pkg supports (and if it will have support, I don't know if this is a wish or not) this is the best way to go. - I see that you are sorting the plist for kernel and userland based on the line length [1], why is that ? I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and will not be deleted in the user computer. > > Additionally, I will be hosting a Package Base working group at BSDCan 2019, > and welcome user and developer attendance to discuss this and other ongoing > package work: > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase > I will be present and looking forward to work with you on this. Cheers, P.S. : FYI I'm working on pkgbase currently and I will have some patches to commit soon (bsdinstall support, memstick creation that install a pkgbase aware installaton etc ...). [1] : https://github.com/trueos/trueos-ports/blob/trueos-master/os/userland-base/Makefile#L35 -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 12:55:25 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA8E158C2F0 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ken@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc30.google.com (mail-yw1-xc30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A66776553 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ken@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc30.google.com with SMTP id i66so3644046ywe.5 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 05:55:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:subject:date:mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references :organization:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GXyl7dap6IhRxhaABRUI74rtV+3oGDw+iiyBLaSZjr0=; b=HNkhaSiuxB25DBBRJUtgiok0TfRjj1m6D3XN55XwvglULsTwEnbkI3B4yOlNDYd92W U3R01jnWPniAQ5J+JHdBwVxgPDyfVi31O2RGXfOfqr/H+85p32u9+ax80kZ8s7WLScmL yMpFXHiY7iJqKBJAIw3m+WM59wi8Z03RUDberpgqUq80Wlhb5m+NS9GaK4/Wfn+HFJPM CT0RcWk06gV4g1hadf7wvfKTTZibA6fJ+AqMIJHmi2hFh8OqHiGN2V/2+SzFRUgZR8hn hgJIZrjq/FhvIiZvseL7wHfzNMQ0Wk3Oso5vdeGADAUA7k85ayTUu3UPwYZIkPebfLks v1ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:mime-version:message-id :in-reply-to:references:organization:user-agent :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GXyl7dap6IhRxhaABRUI74rtV+3oGDw+iiyBLaSZjr0=; b=BlanS91WDC7x8vq4l83Cea1vTUxbA4xgTo/EbJudF0fLxdfCq4Nfwa402atoyQErnS Cjr2bX07YiXSbiGPuLxPZChPeqDmsihtxj5zRxF4VP9iyQlz1msDwnzN0EsaWv/N+Fcc KS41u/NK5AkOH9i3ABIbxDVuFpS5i+byKvJ2eGWhpMWBz4lPF3PiMVkGd6QiMklVx+B8 XvObriNcPdBiEAuyv//Fnu8/8hEHxzzZUtibdzP6HRUWZ24JGGZZm6+1pFyJIsu1oRCC kXiSA4YAAhTk6DD8KkQPaH132+AIV3H4CxJ1QpNq2dZRWYV3p54xWnrXb/MQwpVU5aFS JugQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXMk1eN281cPhWejmd52GBws7r9qtvUpgGDkp//Zkr6YAtFtIGI UyNl5X72TK66HX8AWCK9M0M1bxkTiDrpDZbpjkeUik6uTUkzWJ/skca4Nb4oGyKon1L/LEX202y m6ITaGOw/oFtyVvU5c8yZ0A32mJbsI8c3f4dhalr4m/hB1kQBwxStb6cMbIKHBVU/krT5QVss X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx61ZLrZ53EO1xaQCzQdTm+PeIALEEHNv9iK3Lvsnh3sSG370i7kkWMovoxdwdoGLBp/Jgyuw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:2f83:: with SMTP id v125mr50872653ywv.259.1556542523156; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 05:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s127sm16051656yws.66.2019.04.29.05.55.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 05:55:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Moore To: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 08:55:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20190429120808.GI85201@kib.kiev.ua> References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429120808.GI85201@kib.kiev.ua> Organization: iXsystems User-Agent: Trojita/0.7; Qt/5.12.2; xcb; AnyBSD4.4FreeBSD; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 5A66776553 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.973,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:55:25 -0000 On Monday, April 29, 2019 8:08:08 AM EDT, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > Cc: list trimmed to relevant. Very long essey below, be warned. > > On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 03:52:21PM -0400, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: >> FreeBSD Community, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable=20 >> and 13-current >> using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD=20 >> images which >> will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command=20 >> directly. ... > > I do not know what are design decisions for trueos pkgbase are, but I > do know something about in-tree split and why some packaging decisions > where made. I cannot attend your WG, but I believe the reasoning used > for the in-tree is important enough to represent it intact from the > source. I have to start with some explanatory long text to put it into > the proper perspective. > > There are two knots of interdependinces which are critical for correctness > of any upgrade where the target system cannot be simply=20 > discarded on failure: > 1. C runtime > 2. Minimal boot path to prompt. > Let me elaborate both, starting from point 1, which is=20 > typically very obscure > despite having the fundamental nature for anything related to upgrades. > > The basic execution environment for any program executed by the FreeBSD > kernel is formed by combination of kernel' syscall interface and some > system userspace code which makes the expected environment over the > bare-bone image state after execve. The environment is typically named > C runtime environment since C language ABI is directly tied into it, > and normal C programs only get whatever is provided by the C runtime > unless additional libraries are linked in. Trully, it is not just C > runtime, any other execution environment on top of the OS is based on > this one, but since almost every 'advanced' language runtime is backed > by C language and its runtime, the name stuck. > > FreeBSD C runtime, arguably, is provided by the following four objects: > =09/libexec/ld-elf.so.1 > =09/lib/libc.so.7 > =09/lib/libthr.so.3 > =09/lib/libm.so.5 > There, we do *guarantee* that the external ABI of the whole pack of > these four objects is backward compatible, i.e. if the binary was > compiled against set if base libraries at earlier date (may be also > on earlier branch), then the binary behaviour would be same when > executed on newer C runtime pack. This is not trivial to achieve, > besides technical measures that helps there, like backward-compatible > syscall interface, symbol versioning, providing fall-back code for > older interface, a lot of overhead in the development is enforced, like > carefull reviews of the changes, the policy and related discipline of > versioning, following published ABI standards, and so on. > > But, internal ABI of the C runtime pack, i.e. interfaces which make rtld > work with libc and libthr, or way by which libthr, when loaded, makes > libc thread-aware, are not stable, and more, they are often changed > in backward-incompatible way. Requiring backward-compatibility there > would stop our ability to evolve the system. Answering some questions in > advance, yes, rtld delves into libc, libthr patches libc on load, libc > has hooks to control some libthr behaviour. > > The only provision that we make is that ld-elf.so.1 is required to work > with older libc/libthr combination, but even then libc and libthr must > be built from the same sources with the same options set. > > Now, returning to pkgbase, if you look at what libs are packed into clibs, > you see: > =09ld-elf.so.1 > =09libc.so.7 (and modules like iconv tables or nss, if any) > =09libthr.so.3 > =09libdl.so.1 > =09libgcc{, _eh, _s}.so.1 > =09libm.so.5 > =09libedit.so.7 > =09libncurses{, w}.so.8 > =09libc++.so.1 > It adds very popular libs like libncurses/libedit, and C++ runtime. The > basic reasoning is that this package is small and chances of something > going wrong while installing it are small as result. Put it other way, > the small clibs package organization makes it highly probable that > system is left in the consistent state (either all new libs, or all old > libs) after the upgrade, whetever the outcome is. > > If the C runtime pack is not split from the whole 700MB+ update blob, libth= r > update has almost certain chance to occur long after or before libc update,= > so failures do tend to leave inconsistent rtld/libc/libthr set. At best, > it gives you strange glitches, at worst you get unusable system that cannot= > be repaired without external media. > > Now, the second item, the minimal boot path. By definition, it consists > of everything that is required to get bare-bone shell prompt in single > user mode, and where user can repair failed upgrade. Arguably, it should > also include the tools to configure the network and fix filesystems. So > it should consists of > =09loader (including forth/lua scripts) > =09kernel > =09C runtime > =09/sbin/init > =09/bin/sh > =09newfs/fsck/tunefs for UFS > =09zfs/zfspool and libs for ZFS > =09ifconfig/route/ping > In this set, zfs and network management tools must be synced=20 > with the kernel, > since ABI of the management syscalls is not guaranteed to be stable even > on stable branches. > > The above brain dump is at least partial enumeration of things that were > discussed between me and Glen when Glen created the current in-tree > packaging code. Konstantin: Please read the pkgbase documentation that Kris posted in the CFT=20 (https://trueos.github.io/pkgbase-docs/). Your issues/questions keeps=20 referencing the packaging used in the current FreeBSD base-package=20 implementation instead of the pkgbase system proposed in this CFT. TLDR: The package format proposed here does not follow the=20 current/experimental base package format, but rather is a new ports-based=20 implementation which tries to mimic the traditional distfile outputs of=20 FreeBSD in package form. Because this new base package system is governed by ports instead of=20 in-tree changes to the freebsd source tree itself, this allows for the same=20= base package implementation to be used on almost any version of FreeBSD=20 that you like: which is how 12-STABLE and 13-CURRENT package repos were=20 both trivially created for this CFT. --=20 ~~ Ken Moore ~~ ken@ixsystems.com From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:19:43 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E26158C77B; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:19:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 743EE76D39; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:19:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from onlyone.not-for.work (onlyone.not-for.work [148.251.9.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: lev/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20E3BDD53; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:19:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.23.186] (unknown [89.113.128.32]) (Authenticated sender: lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) by onlyone.not-for.work (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E665F152FB; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:19:39 +0300 (MSK) Reply-To: lev@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: kris@ixsystems.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> From: Lev Serebryakov Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lev@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFKbGksBEADeguVs+XyJc3mL3iiOBqDd16wSk97YTJYOi4VsHsINzJr09oFvNDiaDBIi fLn2p8XcJvehcsF2GSgrfXfw+uK4O1jyNIKJmiYA0EtE+ZbRtvDrrE0w6Q8+SDeKA21SWh3Y vSQ0DJUontbgW55ER2CbEiIUTIn34uQ0kmESAaw/v5p/9ue8yPTmURvv130FqPFz8VPzltqL NxyGt54TxPfKAzAHEIwxlEZ63JOwzloKh1UDBExcsf9nJO08/TAVgR5UZ5njFBPzaaquhRoP qPJLEQQDqxPIlvMNtHKf7iIebE4BHeqgCdJA0BoiR6gpa0wlsZtdrTPK3n4wYSphLvGbhfOZ YW/hbcu7HYS/FImkVxB3iY17kcC1UTnx4ZaYeASPBGOOPbXky1lLfmDGWIFT//70yx+G17qD OZzF1SvJJhGvh6ilFYaWMX7T+nIp6Mcafc4D7AakXM+XdubNXOMlCJhzPcZ0skgAEnYV587w V7em5fDVwQccwvtfezzqKeJAU5TGiywBHSR5Svzk2FwRNf6M//hWkpq0SRR63iOhkHGOAEBi 69GfEIwH2/w24rLxP0E+Hqq8n+EWNkPatw1Mhcl5PKkdvGCjJUaGNMkpBffjyYo254JXRscR eEnwdIkJt4ErDvjb2/UrOFq31wWMOiLzJeVchAgvTHBMRfP9aQARAQABtCFMZXYgU2VyZWJy eWFrb3YgPGxldkBGcmVlQlNELm9yZz6JAlYEEwEIAEACGwMHCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgID AQIeAQIXgBYhBPltHKC19DGLZ0szCuqwPFi/3EePBQJb/TeXBQkPBbfGAAoJEOqwPFi/3EeP LtEQANQLS89OCDSnLDZLyCj7sH5GZbTikJp9Or2McqEOpjgtfY/OgqCe7lfo8f71tTN3gL2t VGtNEtsl6CqKeBdm6fqsetCAed2+waJfbXLZWReLRSFQJ/cbof8MB3h/uEw8Zng1ZbyEU0eG rc41Mhk8bTfxjNRjkXDbp0+2xug+eRr2RYhiY2SxH+iy57AbRIu9gkjfL05VztfvsV5dPxt7 +reHf2Vhtu+qCRtCytGQqDvYWGpVZ8U5fHJxFdsJpn66LAe8w+iRGCbppB5TKeHkqWqDb++u sd5ZHzwep/7qcLBeKggi8+a2C3J1J4TpYBwdPgusrGtBPf2EYSTc/0mW5j86g1l8UDN9qXAI FvWbKf22p5SlYUzf5qRLny4ZdDl1mH13lmJV7ZkZGMKnt0IjJ2x0LRgLGhiSm/D4Lh8yc/MX uhj9BB020XbWcMUPpA7S7YaWeIXbnK3NrPU0yk77prFJblfskOwuaxJIwa2mX+cCAQA95As5 2talifo4Kh8OLSvS1gpbMo64LllTzuGbCWuKecH3fpMlZlD7/10z9lBvkSXA7KgadDfN0yHO xGCK8KE9gXXmEVRlbgGDYOJw9FLWHuSZHUvQTkmr4goXrmMIKa9A4BKO3s9vowP4pJ0vp3kz MIBeEwKSvAeZZfgKbIKggKUuQ5gsAqvF360sG3+UuQINBFKbGksBEAC0a9wfjo2P3JyT7Lc+ QlbFVshGbSbazb4ma7QYG5IZZD5vfLBFkePoG6cnrn3WCXp4A43hszAynCwe4eXyAkv4+gPF 3ZSeNE5Wz3zYG+jh2nm2iGCkyaVykfbA+2chor2DKH5tHpuNMBlF+wSJHZKJmlo/sFIktAnV 1NBVg4/cL+9/hIpvl82cl3hYCD7/e7/qRE+w38CpAAzn65FvbODn7xlY3fsJt+cHPBJ4EBM9 KnTwcce+F+72RQMZQEl7vIAwSRmLdgZHN0MFC533l62SVoKjT0eaOOIBrvesmojhWjfwugib Xr+WRF/tGcW77Bxwe2eQLbEVESqWeMORxRxocx7Q7aACoHmf4G4U1Vzx7zUEfNfHjfjZeQVf AURf/MoUelZSW/BmMIfKCg3lRlWAt+Pq2h2UADPVqAZze45beE/c8z8LZsOZiGoRhYL8NSg6 +ziLTdmYLWdtFGAuZhqOtNp5h6tGj21OksBotcaIa5YjbCmmnImIjGlSBkUKvIhq/RXth5b2 gNwaQdu+Yv4AlZVHRsuVywL/skDFL5+We11bDK6MQ5PzvmntRJcgbyoisn1hiV04OV1LpJJM kJn1j8VlBqDQNT/z+BjB0ru/0anv+5uLj7v0ck06rEo4yiXT/ZAcBM76j7V7FaGbkoba6bUU CQ2H5YYBOKpikjCnpwARAQABiQI8BBgBCAAmAhsMFiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48F Alv9N7IFCQ8Ft+cACgkQ6rA8WL/cR49wpw//W7QrZHKYUWEVHtPLVMlcM1f7MgwnYlIRe/I6 gykwvt87sqxSYu7eHxfX6JZR2M9UYuUYscSR57gxXKu2Uzqaz2KjvEIXJCwCTsuXZjkQ19oL hAPsucw2AcMI6YqPXbZ7hO0Mh8jMeJzD6vDvx3zvunQxGQoZKxr3BvRUyO7NCYbA7N8ccI3E Tmdjj9JTbtue9WaUeGLszFDiITmkASBdsK07y4ylLAJzUGCvYLBU3gx0bBOB2S8SbxHYmQlj ewjovbp+MbT+CoXNxZp+gDRModGyIMdRIotkRiDbgNl0VWIT0SS1GUUlUHKzQ/ZPUvpvk6Gq s/SYBS7rBQNSoXXmJxNW6I6atVNW7JhInC1tkHxBlbpik4FK07J6NHFTx+9ygyCxbxwNA/Le FGkL3kU0VFXR2dNiAVbeueUPF6tU5Bye5ftgpLKOSAbo1g++EKUkc8335/4oYRBMcGEk4xUr NAvzoFPhA2W3KtklruJ9ThrFt9+//NB5ySlVgTwGWMuBJoskEmNOTBv34/UQPUIuE4xSwy6y H+nRQJooiMFo5QCosslJPlwyV63NS9lYXB6n3QWOCP6sFdWACNUCOFv4uk7LQdY9BsCmt2Tk cLuHmoS+fvUesQXnYV2aQi9HciriPIj2gvJ6WjgiaC/PpePil0fzyrfG/JMyHL0qcgmYoj0= Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:19:39 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TpJm1J75TwcSaTJFJfGZFTd5x8HJHCQ4J" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 743EE76D39 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.94 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.942,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:96.47.64.0/20, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:19:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TpJm1J75TwcSaTJFJfGZFTd5x8HJHCQ4J Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="vEqawuU6GRUsEVGjwIDj1i4SK2KWTYwfU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Lev Serebryakov Reply-To: lev@FreeBSD.org To: kris@ixsystems.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> In-Reply-To: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> --vEqawuU6GRUsEVGjwIDj1i4SK2KWTYwfU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28.04.2019 22:52, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and 13-cu= rrent > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images w= hich > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly= =2E > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and le= t us > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page = going > forward. Is it too coarse, isn't it? I'm not very interested in packetized base for "big servers" which contains full FreeBSd installation, but I have several NanoBSD installations, which have more than 100 "WITHOUT_XXX" options in src.conf. I want to have packetized base to create such images via `pkg' Not all these options could be converted to packages, options like WITHOUT_KERBEROS is more build option, but about 2/3 of these options turn off some file-based features, like sendmail, PPP, toolchain or bzip2= =2E IMHO, to be really useful packets in base should be based on these src.conf options to have ability to skip unneeded "optional" base components (including, for example, man pages!). And one more, not covered with src.conf WITHOUT_XXX: static libraries and header files, of course! --=20 // Lev Serebryakov --vEqawuU6GRUsEVGjwIDj1i4SK2KWTYwfU-- --TpJm1J75TwcSaTJFJfGZFTd5x8HJHCQ4J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48FAlzG+etfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEY5 NkQxQ0EwQjVGNDMxOEI2NzRCMzMwQUVBQjAzQzU4QkZEQzQ3OEYACgkQ6rA8WL/c R48NAw/+KK6UG12QnKFby79sKgBJ2TxAq7r5cAqQsCYDtnXVF1az8K5MugU/yGjA 7E/iVSSIqATll5m/AXvBCJZXCNQmv5ufKRm9tjMvDtSksOzpe5o9AMaiEqGD9SEh rcAvji5cZ1L2MRzHXYc1v4vhJ/KfTFeUpQFcoojW2vItdoPwTmDdqavwme1WULaE g21RGKtRy4Hi2E/MoLANRf3YGc5OnjOPTU2ZmBqsNNXdaElzXbeopk8+hhZ90SR9 tGmO1Ej6eXsXY0BGjC0f6lVHHWoh34GQD4lMXPipavzmhOetLcTgqe6cdM0XKC7J b++rpfJh53AoEiZKassTTXmASDGgsci+1TOK9xeunEvzTa1iOa8WTwRdM6MyR29O wzUYGTG4eX9JG3A5iOAthda3m3GnSjYNk6PJInDcHsW1CIL8XSMowgHJ5A9YVNC8 1e2P7HSTqiepW5MvggZRN1ah99AXYANt6KZIewc9VoHhg7e1hTZ2dyx19yGt8utl FVzXKkNUQLRWaK2CSHGetQMtf2+LY0OR+JfBr/KqQZ23XzXSr33qlzlEHvVDc2f4 xcE0lOXR1d1qzwzJSOuOPhwfaZkEzExGT8g7zNHpW4qegFm/voloXr/y5rPSrrZB VabtDf4HbvidUaVKSO9nO4ZijM8YJAt+vjTv/fHJEPeIeJCg7e8= =RYqC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TpJm1J75TwcSaTJFJfGZFTd5x8HJHCQ4J-- From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:25:16 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6AA158CDB7 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K5ww+uvGAcRKntVX3CuKClDjGquFkWxKL+ayep4zX10=; b=BwKVPctrUE+yztWYwZdAxB7zhgfjytP2JVqDtCrBppKnar4Kh1AHvQcOQb6g+WjmZt hXmpWYYhfx8v+yaRcnFJ9DTHpH0Hp7waMntwiaUIxiljtmDjuQrb1uw88fg8eJ5ZIlDo m0ivD5guABvGtOtAzIQdu6z3btdfrQLMCpigCJf/vMotYwRX/7gq8KL64W6OLvU+gE+R /pvy3nPgDYNr+TXrOU86w6SS5djIM6jebAQEUNdPyKO+F9H0XUWZlOL4HUrqHpSl5zS4 5P6/8OdzqKGnMU+QLhVMkTqydFL21dBBNH/+LimpgC0kOxQCl/OCniuM1keUb8MLd7zR +pZA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWL9gq56qEQcIX5fraCp/VGqf6Jqng5/qoH8tY2oy2oqKYxEsPC gR/TyymFnix9ba2zTksNNZuaOgKr055SEAZosezvvHtzxfQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwm14h2MgICKuqcdrdQJ/8RW3/UZp/daTTGMbYrmHnfG1Ujj5fda1MZPlsSOZzj6zfkimSVCHWyeAgGN3FbvDM= X-Received: by 2002:a24:4682:: with SMTP id j124mr18995293itb.90.1556544313611; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:25:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> From: Kris Moore Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: FreeBSD Stable , FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A60527785F X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:25:16 -0000 On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > Hi Kris, > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 > wrote: > > > FreeBSD Community, > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and > 13-current > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images > which > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly. > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and let > us > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page > going > > forward. > > > > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. > > - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are updated at same time. > - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is > a supposition, I haven't personally tested). > See above. > - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll get the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one. > - Since you reduced the granularity on the userland bits it would mean > that if we use your implementation for -p updates we would download the > whole userland packages instead of just updating the package that was > patched. For example with pkgbase, updating from 12.0 to 12.0p1 will > only update the FreeBSD-runtime package. Yes this package is still big > to download when you compare to what have changed but until pkg(8) have > delta pkg supports (and if it will have support, I don't know if > this is a wish or not) this is the best way to go. > Correct, this is by design. We used the in-tree pkg base for nearly a year, and found that the granularity didn't really offer any savings from a download or time perspective. Updating 100+ packages took far longer than a single one, due to all the meta operations. Additionally in real-world usage, we found that base packages tended to all get updated at the same time, which took far longer via pkg, since it had to go and perform 100+ fetch operations just to download the base system bits. > - I see that you are sorting the plist for kernel and userland based > on the line length [1], why is that ? Whoops! I'll fix :) > > I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and > will not be deleted in the user computer. > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this direction. Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us, current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully. Additionally we've added some additional features, such as being able to 'pkg install os/src' to get system sources used in exact build, as well as being able to rebuild your local world / kernel packages using ports "make config" framework is super handy. > > > > > Additionally, I will be hosting a Package Base working group at BSDCan > 2019, > > and welcome user and developer attendance to discuss this and other > ongoing > > package work: > > > > > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase > > > > I will be present and looking forward to work with you on this. > > Cheers, > > P.S. : FYI I'm working on pkgbase currently and I will have some > patches to commit soon (bsdinstall support, memstick creation that > install a pkgbase aware installaton etc ...). > Great! Looking forward to discussion then! > > [1] : > > https://github.com/trueos/trueos-ports/blob/trueos-master/os/userland-base/Makefile#L35 > > -- > Emmanuel Vadot > From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:37:21 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88136158D8B4 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:37:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2c.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 691D280448 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:37:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2c.google.com with SMTP id t79so3685487ywc.7 for ; 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Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KrisYogaC930 ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a4sm11538927ywa.7.2019.04.29.06.37.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:37:17 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'Ken Moore'" , References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429120808.GI85201@kib.kiev.ua> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:37:16 -0400 Message-ID: <02ef01d4fe90$a997a360$fcc6ea20$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFBRupbev+o6AHqgfoJLZwOgBKxNQH06tQyAf5q95SnWvhLcA== Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 691D280448 X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=HQcPz3YC; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.00 / 15.00]; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:37:21 -0000 Just echo'ing what Ken has stated here. This is part of the reason we implemented this style with the less granular pkgs. The entire 'userland-base' is one single archive, minus docs/tests/debug files. This means a single 'pkg upgrade' of userland-base will be able to finish extraction in one pass, ensuring that libc/libthr/libelf and friends all are splatted on disk in the same pass. -- Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org On Behalf Of Ken Moore Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 8:55 AM To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base On Monday, April 29, 2019 8:08:08 AM EDT, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > Cc: list trimmed to relevant. Very long essey below, be warned. > > On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 03:52:21PM -0400, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: >> FreeBSD Community, >> >> >> >> I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and >> 13-current using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock >> FreeBSD images which will allow users to perform all updating via the >> 'pkg' command directly. ... > > I do not know what are design decisions for trueos pkgbase are, but I > do know something about in-tree split and why some packaging decisions > where made. I cannot attend your WG, but I believe the reasoning used > for the in-tree is important enough to represent it intact from the > source. I have to start with some explanatory long text to put it > into the proper perspective. > > There are two knots of interdependinces which are critical for > correctness of any upgrade where the target system cannot be simply > discarded on failure: > 1. C runtime > 2. Minimal boot path to prompt. > Let me elaborate both, starting from point 1, which is typically very > obscure despite having the fundamental nature for anything related to > upgrades. > > The basic execution environment for any program executed by the > FreeBSD kernel is formed by combination of kernel' syscall interface > and some system userspace code which makes the expected environment > over the bare-bone image state after execve. The environment is > typically named C runtime environment since C language ABI is directly > tied into it, and normal C programs only get whatever is provided by > the C runtime unless additional libraries are linked in. Trully, it is > not just C runtime, any other execution environment on top of the OS > is based on this one, but since almost every 'advanced' language > runtime is backed by C language and its runtime, the name stuck. > > FreeBSD C runtime, arguably, is provided by the following four objects: > /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 > /lib/libc.so.7 > /lib/libthr.so.3 > /lib/libm.so.5 > There, we do *guarantee* that the external ABI of the whole pack of > these four objects is backward compatible, i.e. if the binary was > compiled against set if base libraries at earlier date (may be also on > earlier branch), then the binary behaviour would be same when executed > on newer C runtime pack. This is not trivial to achieve, besides > technical measures that helps there, like backward-compatible syscall > interface, symbol versioning, providing fall-back code for older > interface, a lot of overhead in the development is enforced, like > carefull reviews of the changes, the policy and related discipline of > versioning, following published ABI standards, and so on. > > But, internal ABI of the C runtime pack, i.e. interfaces which make > rtld work with libc and libthr, or way by which libthr, when loaded, > makes libc thread-aware, are not stable, and more, they are often > changed in backward-incompatible way. Requiring backward-compatibility > there would stop our ability to evolve the system. Answering some > questions in advance, yes, rtld delves into libc, libthr patches libc > on load, libc has hooks to control some libthr behaviour. > > The only provision that we make is that ld-elf.so.1 is required to > work with older libc/libthr combination, but even then libc and libthr > must be built from the same sources with the same options set. > > Now, returning to pkgbase, if you look at what libs are packed into > clibs, you see: > ld-elf.so.1 > libc.so.7 (and modules like iconv tables or nss, if any) > libthr.so.3 > libdl.so.1 > libgcc{, _eh, _s}.so.1 > libm.so.5 > libedit.so.7 > libncurses{, w}.so.8 > libc++.so.1 > It adds very popular libs like libncurses/libedit, and C++ runtime. > The basic reasoning is that this package is small and chances of > something going wrong while installing it are small as result. Put it > other way, the small clibs package organization makes it highly > probable that system is left in the consistent state (either all new > libs, or all old > libs) after the upgrade, whetever the outcome is. > > If the C runtime pack is not split from the whole 700MB+ update blob, > libthr update has almost certain chance to occur long after or before > libc update, so failures do tend to leave inconsistent > rtld/libc/libthr set. At best, it gives you strange glitches, at > worst you get unusable system that cannot be repaired without external media. > > Now, the second item, the minimal boot path. By definition, it > consists of everything that is required to get bare-bone shell prompt > in single user mode, and where user can repair failed upgrade. > Arguably, it should also include the tools to configure the network > and fix filesystems. So it should consists of > loader (including forth/lua scripts) > kernel > C runtime > /sbin/init > /bin/sh > newfs/fsck/tunefs for UFS > zfs/zfspool and libs for ZFS > ifconfig/route/ping > In this set, zfs and network management tools must be synced with the > kernel, since ABI of the management syscalls is not guaranteed to be > stable even on stable branches. > > The above brain dump is at least partial enumeration of things that > were discussed between me and Glen when Glen created the current > in-tree packaging code. Konstantin: Please read the pkgbase documentation that Kris posted in the CFT (https://trueos.github.io/pkgbase-docs/). Your issues/questions keeps referencing the packaging used in the current FreeBSD base-package implementation instead of the pkgbase system proposed in this CFT. TLDR: The package format proposed here does not follow the current/experimental base package format, but rather is a new ports-based implementation which tries to mimic the traditional distfile outputs of FreeBSD in package form. Because this new base package system is governed by ports instead of in-tree changes to the freebsd source tree itself, this allows for the same base package implementation to be used on almost any version of FreeBSD that you like: which is how 12-STABLE and 13-CURRENT package repos were both trivially created for this CFT. -- ~~ Ken Moore ~~ ken@ixsystems.com _______________________________________________ freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-pkgbase To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-pkgbase-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:39:26 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7BD158D95A for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:39:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc31.google.com (mail-yw1-xc31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EEF2804A7 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:39:27 -0000 This should be very doable with this package base. We use it for FreeNAS = in a similar manner, where we disable a couple dozen things from base, = resulting in a much more stripped down userland-base package. By default = we also break out the doc/tests/debug bits into their own userland-* = packages, for same reasons, to keep image nice and small. --=20 Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source -----Original Message----- From: Lev Serebryakov =20 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 9:20 AM To: kris@ixsystems.com; freebsd-current@freebsd.org; = freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base On 28.04.2019 22:52, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and=20 > 13-current using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock=20 > FreeBSD images which will allow users to perform all updating via the = 'pkg' command directly. > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've = > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and=20 > let us know if you have additional questions that we can include on=20 > that page going forward. Is it too coarse, isn't it? I'm not very interested in packetized base for "big servers" which = contains full FreeBSd installation, but I have several NanoBSD = installations, which have more than 100 "WITHOUT_XXX" options in = src.conf. I want to have packetized base to create such images via `pkg' Not all these options could be converted to packages, options like = WITHOUT_KERBEROS is more build option, but about 2/3 of these options = turn off some file-based features, like sendmail, PPP, toolchain or = bzip2. IMHO, to be really useful packets in base should be based on these = src.conf options to have ability to skip unneeded "optional" base = components (including, for example, man pages!). And one more, not covered with src.conf WITHOUT_XXX: static libraries = and header files, of course! -- // Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:43:39 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08546158DC84; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:43:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from meka@tilda.center) Received: from mail.tilda.center (srv02.tilda.center [199.247.21.11]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D416280907; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:43:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from meka@tilda.center) Received: from hal9000.home.meka.rs (79-101-248-108.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs [79.101.248.108]) by mail.tilda.center (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA3D318F2E; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:43:29 +0200 From: Goran =?utf-8?B?TWVracSH?= To: Kris Moore Cc: Emmanuel Vadot , FreeBSD Stable , FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-ID: <20190429134329.g7t77muqfb6dh2fj@hal9000.home.meka.rs> References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="t5aclbayfnyvbvsj" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: D416280907 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of meka@tilda.center designates 199.247.21.11 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=meka@tilda.center X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.27 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; IP_SCORE(-2.84)[ip: (-9.65), ipnet: 199.247.16.0/21(-4.74), asn: 20473(0.24), country: US(-0.06)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tilda.center]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mail.tilda.center]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.61)[-0.615,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:199.247.16.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[108.248.101.79.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:43:39 -0000 --t5aclbayfnyvbvsj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Kris Moore wrote: > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are > updated at same time. If I'm right, UFS doesn't support boot environments, so how would it work for UFS based installs? I personally feel GO is a bit ackward choice of language for something that practically should be part of base. At least I would expect OS update/upgrade not to require any external package. Regards, meka --t5aclbayfnyvbvsj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE1WIFkXy2ZeMKjjKEWj1TknovrLYFAlzG/30ACgkQWj1Tknov rLbwqQ//VC6wp5BQt7sP2Jr8NoCIo3pwn7oJOk+JPeFHFGuKqb0G/zyLj31LeYSH mtj+QN6lCIALHNuSis25OAUjBLp6rHXj7VM7oExuKfhtxJ4DJGXBxz4O8TnHwFuk CBGqFCwpv9Suedylc0evdHQls737zS46ExeM96DaDqm7Z86Ca2ODm7zm0RmeO19i m+FAdMDERGGgneQdTs8pHS5If420/vWkqldJzEKQoibXJQyom0hxtWZM/UoIvK8q h07d3yCa0s4A+2qzhWwuAJlTZs+SGZGC+Q/Kt4eMANRmp68obca3grFg7ribm1yq xTcS92ehnGBhLoNILWs3V0Nptcr7jy/aenRiX5Ume4P2ciH5tJEgw7n9iDqwSp49 Q4KVDsBOF5wfNIhrcHM9LGovxdUYPcnJSXOcbgcw1OQ2lOm8UC2rkMsRNx7Wci0P Q4Qi6w7KxQwaVhzzItAM/kdjAAFuXTbVpLmTo5yn81W26lR0t0d9mOF8DQ4Nw8B/ wPp/dOlGRT/tKETMUXTCQcdxFWSklvH6a1QKTVFwgLg4S5zi8fqma5y7B7TLDw1f E/zc4vz6SsT+1q6TSFmRwsjjI3yALWXQGHNb5PcH20j7Ws3+PXkCTFbxe1tHuDNJ nam2pOQyfyWhI9kaveYkVjmEEmuOR9HQDtGM+FmrfKTCpAc1kXs= =h7gm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --t5aclbayfnyvbvsj-- From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:43:46 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52693158DD20; 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Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:43:43 +0300 (MSK) Reply-To: lev@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: kris@ixsystems.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> <02f301d4fe90$f5270d70$df752850$@ixsystems.com> From: Lev Serebryakov Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lev@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFKbGksBEADeguVs+XyJc3mL3iiOBqDd16wSk97YTJYOi4VsHsINzJr09oFvNDiaDBIi fLn2p8XcJvehcsF2GSgrfXfw+uK4O1jyNIKJmiYA0EtE+ZbRtvDrrE0w6Q8+SDeKA21SWh3Y vSQ0DJUontbgW55ER2CbEiIUTIn34uQ0kmESAaw/v5p/9ue8yPTmURvv130FqPFz8VPzltqL NxyGt54TxPfKAzAHEIwxlEZ63JOwzloKh1UDBExcsf9nJO08/TAVgR5UZ5njFBPzaaquhRoP qPJLEQQDqxPIlvMNtHKf7iIebE4BHeqgCdJA0BoiR6gpa0wlsZtdrTPK3n4wYSphLvGbhfOZ YW/hbcu7HYS/FImkVxB3iY17kcC1UTnx4ZaYeASPBGOOPbXky1lLfmDGWIFT//70yx+G17qD OZzF1SvJJhGvh6ilFYaWMX7T+nIp6Mcafc4D7AakXM+XdubNXOMlCJhzPcZ0skgAEnYV587w V7em5fDVwQccwvtfezzqKeJAU5TGiywBHSR5Svzk2FwRNf6M//hWkpq0SRR63iOhkHGOAEBi 69GfEIwH2/w24rLxP0E+Hqq8n+EWNkPatw1Mhcl5PKkdvGCjJUaGNMkpBffjyYo254JXRscR eEnwdIkJt4ErDvjb2/UrOFq31wWMOiLzJeVchAgvTHBMRfP9aQARAQABtCFMZXYgU2VyZWJy eWFrb3YgPGxldkBGcmVlQlNELm9yZz6JAlYEEwEIAEACGwMHCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgID AQIeAQIXgBYhBPltHKC19DGLZ0szCuqwPFi/3EePBQJb/TeXBQkPBbfGAAoJEOqwPFi/3EeP LtEQANQLS89OCDSnLDZLyCj7sH5GZbTikJp9Or2McqEOpjgtfY/OgqCe7lfo8f71tTN3gL2t VGtNEtsl6CqKeBdm6fqsetCAed2+waJfbXLZWReLRSFQJ/cbof8MB3h/uEw8Zng1ZbyEU0eG rc41Mhk8bTfxjNRjkXDbp0+2xug+eRr2RYhiY2SxH+iy57AbRIu9gkjfL05VztfvsV5dPxt7 +reHf2Vhtu+qCRtCytGQqDvYWGpVZ8U5fHJxFdsJpn66LAe8w+iRGCbppB5TKeHkqWqDb++u sd5ZHzwep/7qcLBeKggi8+a2C3J1J4TpYBwdPgusrGtBPf2EYSTc/0mW5j86g1l8UDN9qXAI FvWbKf22p5SlYUzf5qRLny4ZdDl1mH13lmJV7ZkZGMKnt0IjJ2x0LRgLGhiSm/D4Lh8yc/MX uhj9BB020XbWcMUPpA7S7YaWeIXbnK3NrPU0yk77prFJblfskOwuaxJIwa2mX+cCAQA95As5 2talifo4Kh8OLSvS1gpbMo64LllTzuGbCWuKecH3fpMlZlD7/10z9lBvkSXA7KgadDfN0yHO xGCK8KE9gXXmEVRlbgGDYOJw9FLWHuSZHUvQTkmr4goXrmMIKa9A4BKO3s9vowP4pJ0vp3kz MIBeEwKSvAeZZfgKbIKggKUuQ5gsAqvF360sG3+UuQINBFKbGksBEAC0a9wfjo2P3JyT7Lc+ QlbFVshGbSbazb4ma7QYG5IZZD5vfLBFkePoG6cnrn3WCXp4A43hszAynCwe4eXyAkv4+gPF 3ZSeNE5Wz3zYG+jh2nm2iGCkyaVykfbA+2chor2DKH5tHpuNMBlF+wSJHZKJmlo/sFIktAnV 1NBVg4/cL+9/hIpvl82cl3hYCD7/e7/qRE+w38CpAAzn65FvbODn7xlY3fsJt+cHPBJ4EBM9 KnTwcce+F+72RQMZQEl7vIAwSRmLdgZHN0MFC533l62SVoKjT0eaOOIBrvesmojhWjfwugib Xr+WRF/tGcW77Bxwe2eQLbEVESqWeMORxRxocx7Q7aACoHmf4G4U1Vzx7zUEfNfHjfjZeQVf AURf/MoUelZSW/BmMIfKCg3lRlWAt+Pq2h2UADPVqAZze45beE/c8z8LZsOZiGoRhYL8NSg6 +ziLTdmYLWdtFGAuZhqOtNp5h6tGj21OksBotcaIa5YjbCmmnImIjGlSBkUKvIhq/RXth5b2 gNwaQdu+Yv4AlZVHRsuVywL/skDFL5+We11bDK6MQ5PzvmntRJcgbyoisn1hiV04OV1LpJJM kJn1j8VlBqDQNT/z+BjB0ru/0anv+5uLj7v0ck06rEo4yiXT/ZAcBM76j7V7FaGbkoba6bUU CQ2H5YYBOKpikjCnpwARAQABiQI8BBgBCAAmAhsMFiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48F Alv9N7IFCQ8Ft+cACgkQ6rA8WL/cR49wpw//W7QrZHKYUWEVHtPLVMlcM1f7MgwnYlIRe/I6 gykwvt87sqxSYu7eHxfX6JZR2M9UYuUYscSR57gxXKu2Uzqaz2KjvEIXJCwCTsuXZjkQ19oL hAPsucw2AcMI6YqPXbZ7hO0Mh8jMeJzD6vDvx3zvunQxGQoZKxr3BvRUyO7NCYbA7N8ccI3E Tmdjj9JTbtue9WaUeGLszFDiITmkASBdsK07y4ylLAJzUGCvYLBU3gx0bBOB2S8SbxHYmQlj ewjovbp+MbT+CoXNxZp+gDRModGyIMdRIotkRiDbgNl0VWIT0SS1GUUlUHKzQ/ZPUvpvk6Gq s/SYBS7rBQNSoXXmJxNW6I6atVNW7JhInC1tkHxBlbpik4FK07J6NHFTx+9ygyCxbxwNA/Le FGkL3kU0VFXR2dNiAVbeueUPF6tU5Bye5ftgpLKOSAbo1g++EKUkc8335/4oYRBMcGEk4xUr NAvzoFPhA2W3KtklruJ9ThrFt9+//NB5ySlVgTwGWMuBJoskEmNOTBv34/UQPUIuE4xSwy6y H+nRQJooiMFo5QCosslJPlwyV63NS9lYXB6n3QWOCP6sFdWACNUCOFv4uk7LQdY9BsCmt2Tk cLuHmoS+fvUesQXnYV2aQi9HciriPIj2gvJ6WjgiaC/PpePil0fzyrfG/JMyHL0qcgmYoj0= Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <021ff3c4-c325-61e1-21d0-2ee0a89e3642@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:43:43 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02f301d4fe90$f5270d70$df752850$@ixsystems.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EVhsfAW8TLjYCet3GsXtxSUapofh7bE9H" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: DD70280934 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.96 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.960,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:96.47.64.0/20, country:US]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:43:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --EVhsfAW8TLjYCet3GsXtxSUapofh7bE9H Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="imxEVOpxCXUUdBN4JJEL7DjvJwxWudHQS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Lev Serebryakov Reply-To: lev@FreeBSD.org To: kris@ixsystems.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <021ff3c4-c325-61e1-21d0-2ee0a89e3642@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> <02f301d4fe90$f5270d70$df752850$@ixsystems.com> In-Reply-To: <02f301d4fe90$f5270d70$df752850$@ixsystems.com> --imxEVOpxCXUUdBN4JJEL7DjvJwxWudHQS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29.04.2019 16:39, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: >=20 > This should be very doable with this package base. We use it for FreeNA= S in a similar manner, where we disable a couple dozen things from base, = resulting in a much more stripped down userland-base package. By default = we also break out the doc/tests/debug bits into their own userland-* pack= ages, for same reasons, to keep image nice and small. >=20 Ok, after # tar tf FreeBSD-HEAD-pkgbase-x64-20190426.iso | grep All dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/ca_root_nss-3.43_1.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/jq-1.6.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/kernel-20190420203550_1.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/oniguruma-6.9.1.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/pkg-1.10.5_5.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-20190420203550.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-base-20190420203550_7.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-docs-20190420203550.txz dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-lib32-20190420203550.txz # I was under impression, that there is only 3 userland packages, not 100+ :-) --=20 // Lev Serebryakov --imxEVOpxCXUUdBN4JJEL7DjvJwxWudHQS-- --EVhsfAW8TLjYCet3GsXtxSUapofh7bE9H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:53:33 -0000 On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 7:50 AM Lev Serebryakov wrote: > On 29.04.2019 16:39, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: > > > > > This should be very doable with this package base. We use it for FreeNAS > in a similar manner, where we disable a couple dozen things from base, > resulting in a much more stripped down userland-base package. By default we > also break out the doc/tests/debug bits into their own userland-* packages, > for same reasons, to keep image nice and small. > > > Ok, after > > > # tar tf FreeBSD-HEAD-pkgbase-x64-20190426.iso | grep All > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/ca_root_nss-3.43_1.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/jq-1.6.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/kernel-20190420203550_1.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/oniguruma-6.9.1.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/pkg-1.10.5_5.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-20190420203550.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-base-20190420203550_7.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-docs-20190420203550.txz > dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-lib32-20190420203550.txz > # > > I was under impression, that there is only 3 userland packages, not > 100+ :-) > It's a tradeoff... 100+ packages is super granular, but also a PITA to manage. 3 package installs quite a bit faster than the 100+ packages due to a large fixed cost in pkg per package, but isn't granular enough to tailor for NanoBSD systems. Warner > -- > // Lev Serebryakov > > From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:53:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EFF158E65F for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:53:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66A9B816CC for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:53:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2d.google.com with SMTP id q11so3726152ywb.0 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:53:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 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Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KrisYogaC930 ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i13sm1383267ywl.22.2019.04.29.06.53.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: To: =?UTF-8?Q?'Goran_Meki=C4=87'?= Cc: "'Emmanuel Vadot'" , "'FreeBSD Stable'" , "'FreeBSD Current'" , , , , References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> <20190429134329.g7t77muqfb6dh2fj@hal9000.home.meka.rs> In-Reply-To: <20190429134329.g7t77muqfb6dh2fj@hal9000.home.meka.rs> Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:53:48 -0400 Message-ID: <03b001d4fe92$f908c990$eb1a5cb0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFBRupbev+o6AHqgfoJLZwOgBKxNQFhdrr5Ad4+GxoBeMI9n6dU1Bqg Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 66A9B816CC X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:53:53 -0000 Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using specific to = FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as apart = of our CFT.=20 For UFS, there will need to be additional care taken when doing updates. = --=20 Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source -----Original Message----- From: Goran Meki=C4=87 =20 Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 9:43 AM To: Kris Moore Cc: Emmanuel Vadot ; FreeBSD Stable = ; FreeBSD Current = ; freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; = freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; = freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Kris Moore wrote: > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this.=20 > It performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that=20 > kernel/world are updated at same time. If I'm right, UFS doesn't support boot environments, so how would it = work for UFS based installs? I personally feel GO is a bit ackward choice of language for something = that practically should be part of base. At least I would expect OS = update/upgrade not to require any external package. Regards, meka From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:55:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23902158E871; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:55:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.blih.net", Issuer "mail.blih.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB398197D; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:55:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 76f0e8c2; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:55:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=MLAcrXcF53XA7rh7ywbaMUgcCS4=; b=FrWKqTnTfxlianTyg0eI+7KrLjVb L6GgT4tt8gE90MEQfz8nNlz+3cmzpC6TpXee+8Z20fE6vpTnxZRAh30M+5rI9WB6 Ej2gMptD/Jy7RVJmr4P2BKQ35tfRVBs9Ha/FHvp2VIIVbo9RzFW65ukQ1+Jqh/00 VkeUL2ZjqlWaT8I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s= mail; b=DjwipvzFHHdC3LvK7OlJ5FYooPxmQJnYK1IAsoHOChxJo+ZFX+/TobIs z7WpJtQA91Ij5B+cym6YB3/6RKi0GtuybjkqPlwcd1lpZDgbyrN3FBC1VojKmy32 sl+1ajou9LaTXqDqdt8nojcrvdf+abEGIeVQ+/a2vRfI/WRV2wo= Received: from skull.home.blih.net (ip-9.net-89-3-105.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.105.9]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 20095b58 TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:55:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:55:22 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Kris Moore Cc: FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-Id: <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2CB398197D X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mail header.b=FrWKqTnT; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.177.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.45)[-0.454,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.83.177.182/32]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bidouilliste.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.66)[0.664,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx-backup.blih.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.18)[0.183,0]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.38)[ip: (-0.87), ipnet: 212.83.160.0/19(2.97), asn: 12876(-0.17), country: FR(-0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.160.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:55:28 -0000 On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400 Kris Moore wrote: > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot > wrote: > > > > > Hi Kris, > > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 > > wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and > > 13-current > > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images > > which > > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly. > > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've > > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and let > > us > > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page > > going > > > forward. > > > > > > > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your > > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to > > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. > > > > - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and > > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor > > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and > > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. > > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are > updated at same time. > Which could never be imported into FreeBSD. > > > > - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for > > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs > > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be > > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is > > a supposition, I haven't personally tested). > > > > See above. > > > > - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your > > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need > > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose > > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us > > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. > > > > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll get > the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one. Mhm no, the kernel-debug packages only add the debug file in /usr/lib/debug/boot/ I'm talking about installing multiple kernels in // (i.e. /boot/kernel.GENERIC /boot/kernel.MYFEATUREIWANTTOTEST) like describe here : https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase#Project_goals_and_additional_unresolved_issues in the "How to handle /boot/kernel and /boot/kernel.$KERNCONF" point. > > > - Since you reduced the granularity on the userland bits it would mean > > that if we use your implementation for -p updates we would download the > > whole userland packages instead of just updating the package that was > > patched. For example with pkgbase, updating from 12.0 to 12.0p1 will > > only update the FreeBSD-runtime package. Yes this package is still big > > to download when you compare to what have changed but until pkg(8) have > > delta pkg supports (and if it will have support, I don't know if > > this is a wish or not) this is the best way to go. > > > > Correct, this is by design. We used the in-tree pkg base for nearly a year, > and found that the granularity didn't really offer any savings from a > download or time perspective. Updating 100+ packages took far longer than a > single one, due to all the meta operations. Additionally in real-world > usage, we found that base packages tended to all get updated at the same > time, which took far longer via pkg, since it had to go and perform 100+ > fetch operations just to download the base system bits. > But you never need to update 100+ packages on a proper pkgbase setup for -p updates. Again on a 12.0 to 12.0-p1 update only one package will be updated. > > > - I see that you are sorting the plist for kernel and userland based > > on the line length [1], why is that ? > > > Whoops! I'll fix :) > > > > > > I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if > > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those > > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while > > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and > > will not be deleted in the user computer. > > > > > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this direction. > Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us, > current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully. Can you give me more info on this ? What where the WITH/WITHOUT flags that causes problems ? > Additionally we've > added some additional features, such as being able to 'pkg install os/src' > to get system sources used in exact build, as well as being able to rebuild > your local world / kernel packages using ports "make config" framework is > super handy. > That would not be hard to add to pkgbase, I'll add it to my todo list. > > > > > > > > Additionally, I will be hosting a Package Base working group at BSDCan > > 2019, > > > and welcome user and developer attendance to discuss this and other > > ongoing > > > package work: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase > > > > > > > I will be present and looking forward to work with you on this. > > > > Cheers, > > > > P.S. : FYI I'm working on pkgbase currently and I will have some > > patches to commit soon (bsdinstall support, memstick creation that > > install a pkgbase aware installaton etc ...). > > > > Great! Looking forward to discussion then! > > > > > > [1] : > > > > https://github.com/trueos/trueos-ports/blob/trueos-master/os/userland-base/Makefile#L35 > > > > -- > > Emmanuel Vadot > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:57:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6167158EA61 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A33E881B96 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:57:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id a23so9029647iot.4 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IV5xp4d96teQp5ZZ9jz72xKeDmX+4moMz1uuHQxq1Zk=; b=SxGfvcEW0EyL/5PMBSXeYjR16eOlUeyOfaJDlUTeccI5fbP1ALR7M6t7Ngkp82yeKg fnKMZeCUWD0v1IXoVY0yNV/FrcxIC/lUfWw7vDXfWnhMKxDJ3vtYdiVNuMdTC2kXf3cj 8o7zdzDg7kbtg8p9qY1uMUTzQJa6Ylz47uh2r4i7lcJRGwEFYmfJnkilX7wIwQPj2eHd u3nGbWCEq91jWmdI+g9CY9TMievTFQ2jpwIDvvnSyS4IlOgdzJmXW+QuvLc6TLrLI4kb u5pBQ5U5STBp+C3CdCLUmnPJ31S6NvD/ECE58NRCc7Rpp0g+FlPZXwBZXk7qQs5+Yy49 Zseg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IV5xp4d96teQp5ZZ9jz72xKeDmX+4moMz1uuHQxq1Zk=; b=mfqw60Qdj4IHs61PNd/4kaHdYXyoJxRUtKRjb+sfy/E6O6h3F2cBJmNJNuoYZkqL2d LKOizWNjmoMF4GmTosLAgKQ2HwgUByKWI9Y2MC6/yt71P5HJ5pfsR94iu8jlTm2kXz9e mg9LykeA+OLSPoF9Ys8VrORndLRhdKMTUGxfH2msbNaX1i13Zs4WINR6q75Ow6oES7+c DyR58rIKMQx3dPs/J/PlNTEHgoKDE1dllocbIPs/RnIguKxGpHwWI56O5i3aIHO13OzX OcYIz4WGANJ8D0Uojtz3vkPfcuRj0mxlNxj8TF/bmV98E+3W8YpKEI/z0hW0T/TLCO77 eZhA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUsHctZxkk8OLDLkmbaOQz7gjHiA83yMTC2FNEJ+GBi/CO0wh/u iGyIMZljYnnHqdzfD8Ig8TF74x3v5Gw+qvc3bTkRsw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzX7NZ4ND7LC+dEx5A7FdK+Wyn6TVer/IkyQqNbB2HuU4W91Mu2UFWE4CxaQk+HjtELBbdu3C354Lbobpz1BnE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f809:: with SMTP id o9mr461395ioh.232.1556546219662; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:56:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> <02f301d4fe90$f5270d70$df752850$@ixsystems.com> <021ff3c4-c325-61e1-21d0-2ee0a89e3642@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: Kris Moore Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:56:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Warner Losh Cc: Lev Serebryakov , FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A33E881B96 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=SxGfvcEW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.77)[ip: (-8.35), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.17), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.960,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:57:02 -0000 On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:53 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 7:50 AM Lev Serebryakov wrote: > >> On 29.04.2019 16:39, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: >> >> > >> > This should be very doable with this package base. We use it for >> FreeNAS in a similar manner, where we disable a couple dozen things from >> base, resulting in a much more stripped down userland-base package. By >> default we also break out the doc/tests/debug bits into their own >> userland-* packages, for same reasons, to keep image nice and small. >> > >> Ok, after >> >> >> # tar tf FreeBSD-HEAD-pkgbase-x64-20190426.iso | grep All >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/ca_root_nss-3.43_1.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/jq-1.6.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/kernel-20190420203550_1.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/oniguruma-6.9.1.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/pkg-1.10.5_5.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-20190420203550.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-base-20190420203550_7.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-docs-20190420203550.txz >> dist/FreeBSD:13:amd64/latest/All/userland-lib32-20190420203550.txz >> # >> >> I was under impression, that there is only 3 userland packages, not >> 100+ :-) >> > > It's a tradeoff... 100+ packages is super granular, but also a PITA to > manage. 3 package installs quite a bit faster than the 100+ packages due to > a large fixed cost in pkg per package, but isn't granular enough to tailor > for NanoBSD systems. > > Warner > > Correct. Its all in the FAQ, there are about a dozen available packages: https://trueos.github.io/pkgbase-docs/#which-base-packages-are-available Really you only need a few of them on typical system, userland(meta-pkg)/userland-base/userland-docs/kernel > -- >> // Lev Serebryakov >> >> From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:06:26 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86711158F4B6 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:06:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-it1-x12a.google.com (mail-it1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACE6B829BF for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:06:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-it1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id v8so59779itf.0 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:06:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rkBXTnF4X5xo6I+15kt9hGs8sq+74DaaTGWyV1SenI4=; b=HNtcg/lv1HI8HPYZ1UR0iJ/cW3hCd/0PUXcXcPyjx56PWwbonrT24svfaV104XgS2M XyOCt4Y/3m4yigbe3f6vsDVKzufaoi3OOIIWQN302Vagm+9p7ANA6uRJG8bmjVXR9iGf RqEHUUu60vcMIhzY1jITqcCBc5FQF+In/GF1jMj8P3fs/UboF35nzEDu/3g3Qv62etch +U3L0D2v5JOTEWQmS5rnu1IUtXS+DkqZIRnmFPANEuUswWoLS01T8Ad2ThTfPwdhs+Qs /HecQh3HtK48CNUkqTtDIrCVQam0YDVmkmnwGJmywK2YP0AgvCOqmbB1OyGCtzZplgge Iwig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rkBXTnF4X5xo6I+15kt9hGs8sq+74DaaTGWyV1SenI4=; b=epI7KEetenIAhaeA3S5bZPEHfQMHSymhGAMDgzAum2Fqdqdqsetn4HVQHzuLtLF4Bv EKaoCSKVeFPOwGvIkk6T1+szV7eZOCEbi+oCOME2UEmZoEoXITrIri7FkxwGWXbH0cwG fF+YhSdQ4yLzpf5ZaRUO1ouiKnRImI+ZZkD7f7xP/p5Ql1vIJV1rv9FZDuEAWce9WoEl 3/7Pv6SHRcXLDkF5Cbr/G0hbgoquMZ5RBGHgjx4AsP6MzCAjN81gKEugcWQIsO4BzlCK rihaLWEXLjDEW4oB77vc/CJx6Io8MWPC9gEM7/JR1ovNCGctna7DmgvihiwGSD85ITny uXjg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX2hoevlcoObdZj+wbw3IxORIhI+QqU973QD2JE19WmQOCW4ePD GlLtYOk42gg0MmViIiZpQustAYOYbiutGjKm4kYFnQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz+8g7dXIkrTysL5y4+vtcwYgi5jxDCKrjcP2POhFwsT/KjZyv8dXTDR8y6bks7xSMPkHppOYMkPM0FJ2Jt3vE= X-Received: by 2002:a24:f68a:: with SMTP id u132mr19235507ith.45.1556546770513; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:06:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> From: Kris Moore Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:05:59 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: ACE6B829BF X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=HNtcg/lv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.27 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.77)[ip: (-8.39), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.17), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:06:26 -0000 On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:55 AM Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400 > Kris Moore wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Kris, > > > > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > FreeBSD Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and > > > 13-current > > > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images > > > which > > > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command > directly. > > > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, > we've > > > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and > let > > > us > > > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that > page > > > going > > > > forward. > > > > > > > > > > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your > > > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to > > > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. > > > > > > - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and > > > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor > > > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and > > > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. > > > > > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It > > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are > > updated at same time. > > > > Which could never be imported into FreeBSD. > Not suggesting it should be. Just information on how we solved that problem in our own appliance / platforms. For FreeBSD it would need some tooling still to handle this style of updating, regardless of which pkg base is used. And for what it's worth, FreeBSD is all the poorer for not being able to bring modern language based tools into the base. Personally I'm hoping the shift to base-packages makes this a moot point since the idea of 'what is base' can be diluted to just a manifest of what gets installed out of box. Just my 2C on the matter though :) > > > > > > > > - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for > > > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs > > > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be > > > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is > > > a supposition, I haven't personally tested). > > > > > > > See above. > You can selectively update os/kernel and reboot before doing rest. > > > > > > > - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your > > > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need > > > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose > > > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us > > > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. > > > > > > > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll > get > > the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one. > > Mhm no, the kernel-debug packages only add the debug file > in /usr/lib/debug/boot/ > I'm talking about installing multiple kernels in // > (i.e. /boot/kernel.GENERIC /boot/kernel.MYFEATUREIWANTTOTEST) like > describe here : > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase#Project_goals_and_additional_unresolved_issues > in the "How to handle /boot/kernel and /boot/kernel.$KERNCONF" point. > > Incorrect, os/kernel-debug installs /boot/kernel-debug which is (on 13-CURRENT) the Witness enabled kernel. os/kernel-debug-symbols are the /usr/lib/debug bits. > > > > > > > I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if > > > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those > > > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while > > > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and > > > will not be deleted in the user computer. > > > > > > > > > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this > direction. > > Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us, > > current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully. > > Can you give me more info on this ? What where the WITH/WITHOUT flags > that causes problems ? > I may have to pick Miwi's brain on this, but I believe some of the issues we saw were when introducing flags such as WITHOUT_RADIUS. Additionally there is a runtime problem to solve. I.E. if you change flags mid-stream, and user updates, there was no clean way on pkg-side to remove those already installed granular packages. Not without external tooling anyway. > > -- > Emmanuel Vadot > From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:09:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F7D158F869; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:09:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D9DC82F63; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:09:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x3TE9OGH072532; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x3TE9OFj072531; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201904291409.x3TE9OFj072531@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: <03b001d4fe92$f908c990$eb1a5cb0$@ixsystems.com> To: kris@ixsystems.com Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:09:24 -0700 (PDT) CC: "=?UTF-8?Q?'Goran_Meki=C4=87'?=" , "'Emmanuel Vadot'" , "'FreeBSD Stable'" , "'FreeBSD Current'" , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 1D9DC82F63 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.29)[-0.286,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.86)[0.858,0]; IP_SCORE(0.04)[ip: (0.15), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.07), asn: 13868(0.05), country: US(-0.06)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: gndrsh.dnsmgr.net]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.54)[0.537,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:09:32 -0000 > > Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using specific to FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as apart of our CFT. Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, and miss leading. > For UFS, there will need to be additional care taken when doing updates. > > -- > Kris Moore > Vice President of Engineering > iXsystems, Inc > Ph: (408) 943-4100 > Ph: (408) 943-4101 > The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - > Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source > > -----Original Message----- > From: Goran Meki? > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 9:43 AM > To: Kris Moore > Cc: Emmanuel Vadot ; FreeBSD Stable ; FreeBSD Current ; freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; freebsd-ports@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Kris Moore wrote: > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. > > It performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that > > kernel/world are updated at same time. > > If I'm right, UFS doesn't support boot environments, so how would it work for UFS based installs? > > I personally feel GO is a bit ackward choice of language for something that practically should be part of base. At least I would expect OS update/upgrade not to require any external package. > > Regards, > meka > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:12:00 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC20E158FD1B for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:11:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E56F183441 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id e8so9023089ioe.12 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:11:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=40AQJesMSDreckm3W3V4ATFBI5KF5MeS/44F3ZnXX3c=; b=nYkpusi1yW4pdelw+f5HrIzcu5pHmJ6AtFAUPXdWxhEIzs2O+9mrVst5cpe+9IiTBj buKkqkoH03+f9OlGwIQIwdHPqD+UScMHbimGSo3iV3cGRgp8VY98wSjOBqXByUWBnud2 oxPAEavbyZO9JJUxTfmA5qMUlzAKGxH6VWU/FqaYoD4lqKzsTawG++ufv+n0mqRA7cDA 2Mj0AxeI1IJ+3k0xAoeJlETShu1v7mHO9efo3yRJ4sirKLAj7cBnP39wcn2xLM0/ZSzc 2b81tXEznDwNaTweWwNqLD7WeH2cL9qRzoBVrRzX7/E6YvJ11WYmft729e3Bg1ODOyZ3 lZsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=40AQJesMSDreckm3W3V4ATFBI5KF5MeS/44F3ZnXX3c=; b=cTIb8A6/fsU+vY+DfTHTDj5GfrnSRWFQBVC28iAJPt3wqNVrKWu9G+USqOD1ajfib0 PQa9Jce/EhVfJzoFveVtLmhnPHMtIZDv0OMr6TMYNP6BybrqiO5ZBxsKeBXYsA4BlCCT xc6k1TPMD83adwPqn61fFdng2y0z57rBXQ0QLrg63u+g561X2W7UrZMeH9XhODVcBJ2s RLodfYs3rgq0nsQuuJt2mVvwm5qIblnprIkoS//4F9yQ+TK0dNZZJEqhZbgOttGChGmW kKHfAy1+miW7q9tHpt4fhJ3oiZ/3Ti7GwCAjmh4uX7UY9ndWD+0typVqw90jmfG8NagA kp9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXLONwVq0d0I0DsG/o5Dd1Jp79jvnnCgxZbq9UgvxPDOnZtuVpB XP/NqiVaGQLxmlZuS48JSRFKj9NHb/A2mr9u8WqU7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZczPSIfSA6FzUHIJ7nQ3lD+luMktNDaF/bc0ZvyXUkQSwBd9pNokOJ/XQddSd0tbCF/391BGIPpYk4cyTzcY= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f809:: with SMTP id o9mr529367ioh.232.1556547118014; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:11:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <03b001d4fe92$f908c990$eb1a5cb0$@ixsystems.com> <201904291409.x3TE9OFj072531@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201904291409.x3TE9OFj072531@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Kris Moore Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:11:47 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?R29yYW4gTWVracSH?= , Emmanuel Vadot , FreeBSD Stable , FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E56F183441 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=nYkpusi1; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.82)[ip: (-8.62), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.17), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.985,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:12:00 -0000 On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using specific to > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as apart of > our CFT. > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", > calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, > and miss leading. > Sorry, I disagree. This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using to wrangle boot-environments. Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the CFT. These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on UFS, no difference. If anything are probably safer due to being able to update all of userland in single extract operation, so you don't have out of order extraction of libc or some such. > > > For UFS, there will need to be additional care taken when doing updates. > > > > -- > > Kris Moore > > Vice President of Engineering > > iXsystems, Inc > > Ph: (408) 943-4100 > > Ph: (408) 943-4101 > > The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - > > Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Goran Meki? > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 9:43 AM > > To: Kris Moore > > Cc: Emmanuel Vadot ; FreeBSD Stable < > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; FreeBSD Current ; > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; freebsd-ports@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Kris Moore wrote: > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. > > > It performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that > > > kernel/world are updated at same time. > > > > If I'm right, UFS doesn't support boot environments, so how would it > work for UFS based installs? > > > > I personally feel GO is a bit ackward choice of language for something > that practically should be part of base. At least I would expect OS > update/upgrade not to require any external package. > > > > Regards, > > meka > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:19:37 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6082A15905C6; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theravensnest.org [46.226.110.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "theravensnest.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC28B84021; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:19:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [10.164.186.150] ([167.220.197.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x3TDnaeJ005846 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:49:37 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail: Host [167.220.197.150] claimed to be [10.164.186.150] Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: lev@FreeBSD.org, kris@ixsystems.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> From: David Chisnall Message-ID: <51429d1b-6305-7656-dfd0-cbad8b9c0c40@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:50:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1393169f-7988-7ce6-e030-8c61727f78b8@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: DC28B84021 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.82 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.825,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:46.226.108.0/22, country:FR]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:19:37 -0000 On 29/04/2019 14:19, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > I'm not very interested in packetized base for "big servers" which > contains full FreeBSd installation 'Big servers' may have a full FreeBSD installation in the base system, but they may also have hundreds of jails that want the absolute minimum required for the service that they're exporting. FreeBSD is currently suffering quite a lot from the lack of any solid story here. The vast majority of cloud deployments are now using some combination of Docker and Kubernetes or equivalents to spin up a large number of VMs and an even larger number of microservice containers within them. This should be something that FreeBSD is ideal for - jails preform better and provide a more coherent interface than the mess of cgroups and seccomp-bpf that Linux containers use. It *ought* to be trivial to create a jail that has basically nothing other than the core libraries (and maybe a shell) and is managed from the outside. Even the few FreeBSD core utilities that support jails don't really work like this (for example, I can use pkg to install something in a jail, but doing so implicitly installs a copy of the pkg tool inside the jail and invokes that). David From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:34:26 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF141591382 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:34:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CBD085049 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:34:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id m204so3835531ybc.10 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:34:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:34:26 -0000 > > > > > Incorrect, os/kernel-debug installs /boot/kernel-debug which is (on > > 13-CURRENT) the Witness enabled kernel. os/kernel-debug-symbols are > > the /usr/lib/debug bits. > > I only see kernel-20190420203550_1.txz and kernel-debug- > 20190420203550.txz in https://pkg.trueos.org/pkg/freebsd- > pkgbase/FreeBSD%3A13%3Aamd64/latest/All/ > and kernel-debug only contain the debug files. > If I'm not looking in the right directory please correct me. > > > -- > Emmanuel Vadot Ahh, you are correct. I checked and those packages haven't pushed to the mirrors yet, Jenkins is still chewing on a build of them here. I was using the 12-stable packages yesterday which has these changes. They should be synced up to the mirrors in the next 24-48 hours. Sorry about the confusion. -- Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:35:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A517F15914ED; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:35:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.blih.net", Issuer "mail.blih.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3703A8524C; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:35:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 11eeb002; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:28:47 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=pd7/fUDtndS60t3fDY8gFbr+Two=; b=AqXJs+17NHV0FINgAotTesH59c+B 109keWOxWL1+TMOSF+NDVQxB4H+HXTzoufryQIkVE+TtguwWQ9iHIhyNKMxw6DMp RScGGZ0hI8U8OtkWinOEOQxUm/tzAs8uQptSM4NCVj/OZ0h6MVS6SKnAwxTN4a1H ENep/QNErV197Gk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s= mail; b=n3JmpHsLPTGSrGwCTV7BGFwAwOPpILae22RBID1ZZiMRhksxrNHRWKqz pWHc2ldbxvBXtXPy51rxP3LbvvXIpZOYQcSKynauU421jQ9Ebow1gQW5B3cJjAYY 2OyQpeurrNKXkP5OnQLesEspie7y6WNyOknQ6b0jg2MyAELY2ag= Received: from skull.home.blih.net (ip-9.net-89-3-105.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.105.9]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id d0d7e356 TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:28:47 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Kris Moore Cc: FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-Id: <20190429162847.a32262b6073f5523bdbe0ed4@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3703A8524C X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mail header.b=AqXJs+17; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.177.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [8.90 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:212.83.177.182/32]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[trueos.org.multi.uribl.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx-backup.blih.net]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.39)[ip: (-0.85), ipnet: 212.83.160.0/19(2.96), asn: 12876(-0.17), country: FR(-0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.160.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.92)[0.924,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bidouilliste.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.90)[0.897,0]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:35:30 -0000 On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:05:59 -0400 Kris Moore wrote: > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:55 AM Emmanuel Vadot > wrote: > > > On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400 > > Kris Moore wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kris, > > > > > > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > FreeBSD Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and > > > > 13-current > > > > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images > > > > which > > > > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command > > directly. > > > > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, > > we've > > > > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and > > let > > > > us > > > > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that > > page > > > > going > > > > > forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your > > > > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to > > > > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. > > > > > > > > - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and > > > > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor > > > > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and > > > > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. > > > > > > > > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It > > > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are > > > updated at same time. > > > > > > > Which could never be imported into FreeBSD. > > > > Not suggesting it should be. Just information on how we solved that problem > in our own appliance / platforms. For FreeBSD it would need some tooling > still to handle this style of updating, regardless of which pkg base is > used. > > And for what it's worth, FreeBSD is all the poorer for not being able to > bring modern language based tools into the base. Personally I'm hoping the > shift to base-packages makes this a moot point since the idea of 'what is > base' can be diluted to just a manifest of what gets installed out of box. > Just my 2C on the matter though :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for > > > > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs > > > > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be > > > > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is > > > > a supposition, I haven't personally tested). > > > > > > > > > > See above. > > > > You can selectively update os/kernel and reboot before doing rest. > > > > > > > > > > > > - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your > > > > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need > > > > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose > > > > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us > > > > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll > > get > > > the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one. > > > > Mhm no, the kernel-debug packages only add the debug file > > in /usr/lib/debug/boot/ > > I'm talking about installing multiple kernels in // > > (i.e. /boot/kernel.GENERIC /boot/kernel.MYFEATUREIWANTTOTEST) like > > describe here : > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase#Project_goals_and_additional_unresolved_issues > > in the "How to handle /boot/kernel and /boot/kernel.$KERNCONF" point. > > > > > Incorrect, os/kernel-debug installs /boot/kernel-debug which is (on > 13-CURRENT) the Witness enabled kernel. os/kernel-debug-symbols are the > /usr/lib/debug bits. I only see kernel-20190420203550_1.txz and kernel-debug-20190420203550.txz in https://pkg.trueos.org/pkg/freebsd-pkgbase/FreeBSD%3A13%3Aamd64/latest/All/ and kernel-debug only contain the debug files. If I'm not looking in the right directory please correct me. > > > > > > > > > > > I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if > > > > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those > > > > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while > > > > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and > > > > will not be deleted in the user computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this > > direction. > > > Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us, > > > current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully. > > > > Can you give me more info on this ? What where the WITH/WITHOUT flags > > that causes problems ? > > > > > I may have to pick Miwi's brain on this, but I believe some of the issues > we saw were when introducing flags such as WITHOUT_RADIUS. Additionally > there is a runtime problem to solve. I.E. if you change flags mid-stream, > and user updates, there was no clean way on pkg-side to remove those > already installed granular packages. Not without external tooling anyway. > > > > > > > -- > > Emmanuel Vadot > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:50:37 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D751592682; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:50:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4225D8646F; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:50:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [188.174.53.230] (helo=localhost.unixarea.de) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hL7bz-0002Y9-RN; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:31 +0200 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.unixarea.de (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id x3TEoUWV003159 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id x3TEoTvi003158; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:28 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-ID: <20190429145028.GA3124@c720-r342378> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: Emmanuel Vadot , Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> <20190429162847.a32262b6073f5523bdbe0ed4@bidouilliste.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190429162847.a32262b6073f5523bdbe0ed4@bidouilliste.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT r342378 (amd64) X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:50:37 -0000 --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why this thread has to go to all these lists? I receive any mail 5 times! matthias --=20 Matthias Apitz, =E2=9C=89 guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176= -38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub N =E2=82=AC I N zur EU! "Gegen das EU-Europa der Banken, Konzerne und Kriegstreiber. F=C3=BCr ein soziales und friedliches Europa der V=C3=B6lker." 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Grimes'" Cc: =?iso-8859-2?Q?'Goran_Meki=E6'?= , "'Emmanuel Vadot'" , "'FreeBSD Stable'" , "'FreeBSD Current'" , , , , References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:50:51 -0400 Message-ID: <053101d4fe9a$f1152320$d33f6960$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQM63uti6cm6tb0qpYZSIKL3MVPss6OHdbsQ Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 224A88650E X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=GVbnM8jW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.97)[ip: (-9.39), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.17), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:50:55 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rodney W. Grimes > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 10:41 AM > To: Kris Moore > Cc: Rodney W. Grimes ; Goran Meki=E6 > ; Emmanuel Vadot ; FreeBSD > Stable ; FreeBSD Current current@freebsd.org>; freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd- > pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; = freebsd-ports@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >=20 > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using = specific > > > > to > > > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as > > > apart of our CFT. > > > > > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", = calling > > > this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, and miss leading. > > > > > > > Sorry, I disagree. > Which is fine. >=20 > > This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using > > to wrangle boot-environments. Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the = CFT. > > These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on = UFS, no > > difference. If anything are probably safer due to being able to = update all > > of userland in single extract operation, so you don't have out of = order > > extraction of libc or some such. >=20 > You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, > No comment on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of > FreeNAS/TrueOS? >=20 > That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the user > community, you yourself said this would never be imported into FreeBSD > base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package = Base", > as it is not, that is a different project. >=20 > -- > Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org I think somehow you've missed the entire point here. This is being = brought forth as a FreeBSD CFT in the hopes of upstream adoption. No misleading = here whatsoever. The only thing that I wouldn't expect to be imported into = base was this external tool we use on FreeNAS/TrueOS to handle our specific use-case of ZFS only. Total strawman here. Seriously, suggest you bother looking at it and reading further to get = the full context. If anything this is far less invasive since it doesn't = require lots of hacking on base, and can even be used to package old versions of FreeBSD if desired. The only thing I changed to make these images was a patch to bsdinstall to replace dist-file extraction with 'pkg install userland kernel pkg ...'. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:51:39 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthias Apitz > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 10:50 AM > To: Emmanuel Vadot > Cc: Kris Moore ; FreeBSD Stable stable@freebsd.org>; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org; FreeBSD Current ; > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-ports@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >=20 >=20 > Why this thread has to go to all these lists? I receive any mail 5 = times! >=20 > Matthias Fair point. I'll restrict my replies to the -pkgbase list from here on = out, suggest others do the same. Sorry about the noise =F0=9F=98=8A > -- > Matthias Apitz, =E2=9C=89 guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ = +49-176- > 38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub N =E2=82=AC = I N zur EU! > "Gegen das EU-Europa der Banken, Konzerne und Kriegstreiber. > F=C3=BCr ein soziales und friedliches Europa der V=C3=B6lker." DKP From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:41:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F3F1591C40; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:41:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1872C85C1E; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:41:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x3TEfNiC072752; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x3TEfMid072751; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: To: Kris Moore Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:22 -0700 (PDT) CC: "Rodney W. Grimes" , =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=C4=87?= , Emmanuel Vadot , FreeBSD Stable , FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 1872C85C1E X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.27 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.78)[-0.776,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.43)[0.430,0]; IP_SCORE(0.04)[ip: (0.15), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.07), asn: 13868(0.05), country: US(-0.06)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: gndrsh.dnsmgr.net]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.19)[0.186,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:19:48 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:41:31 -0000 > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using specific to > > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as apart of > > our CFT. > > > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", > > calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, > > and miss leading. > > > > Sorry, I disagree. Which is fine. > This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using > to wrangle boot-environments. Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the CFT. > These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on UFS, no > difference. If anything are probably safer due to being able to update all > of userland in single extract operation, so you don't have out of order > extraction of libc or some such. You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, No comment on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of FreeNAS/TrueOS? That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the user community, you yourself said this would never be imported into FreeBSD base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package Base", as it is not, that is a different project. > > > For UFS, there will need to be additional care taken when doing updates. > > > > > > -- > > > Kris Moore > > > Vice President of Engineering > > > iXsystems, Inc > > > Ph: (408) 943-4100 > > > Ph: (408) 943-4101 > > > The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - > > > Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Goran Meki? > > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 9:43 AM > > > To: Kris Moore > > > Cc: Emmanuel Vadot ; FreeBSD Stable < > > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; FreeBSD Current ; > > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; freebsd-ports@freebsd.org > > > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Kris Moore wrote: > > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. > > > > It performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that > > > > kernel/world are updated at same time. > > > > > > If I'm right, UFS doesn't support boot environments, so how would it > > work for UFS based installs? > > > > > > I personally feel GO is a bit ackward choice of language for something > > that practically should be part of base. At least I would expect OS > > update/upgrade not to require any external package. > > > > > > Regards, > > > meka > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > > freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rod Grimes > > rgrimes@freebsd.org > > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 19:31:44 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198A3159AB6B; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:31:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A9B46E3AA; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:31:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id LBzshjHmcGusjLBzuhmeZ0; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:31:33 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=fOdHIqSe c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=oexKYjalfGEA:10 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=zoJ4fAklMHesfqNpwjwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3E2B3105; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x3TJV7Bg079805; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x3TJV73d079802; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=C4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, Emmanuel Vadot Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" of "Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:22 -0700." <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:31:07 -0700 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNzDWI+zWN/ORISOq2YqftqFPdS4edEpOvpU680vr/0sjvuXehwqqYw0ygP6+3T7Viuz3PQ57eRy7ntso0zPA0JjpvAP5KpCIGDydVICtnz/bDuBZkz4 VbYnvaZwzvtOLW8kh/E7iOCeqvOdfrhDDuiTa+Y3tiipLD5wFQ7WpOMBu8d6YrXpgO+nSY1ixyrUmJWDQMUI4uT6jZd+oryQwP57gTjGBm4H7h/9mgQjhYAY SQ1w9uhrKaTp77U96HuJm588nPRfFMJaHYZx/ujMsDcLJ2shhxEYacWnLVCukybqG59i/LE/HnqNK70ShU64HBWLAE0+UKo/j0aEmoKiYmImmhTpfe1quzvx eZfp65MULKH35mmEeRiGdaCZKvJl34o+2v5R9iwIpNcP+v2lEFdlES8D3hdvr1zkghhJAd92ZKzqvEq+P0/RrZed+EmdU0ZCe8iDz1f+E+g4/cZQBThOnlBZ elX6kJv4tFCEr9Dbre3Bz9SgHVyRWEGx7ERsHS2PMdNGgjxvUJk20eu6jc8= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9A9B46E3AA X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.49 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[139.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-2.29)[ip: (-5.71), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.21), asn: 6327(-2.45), country: CA(-0.09)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:54:35 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:31:44 -0000 In message <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using specific to > > > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as apart of > > > our CFT. > > > > > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", > > > calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, > > > and miss leading. > > > > > > > Sorry, I disagree. > Which is fine. > > > This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using > > to wrangle boot-environments. Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the CFT. > > These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on UFS, no > > difference. If anything are probably safer due to being able to update all > > of userland in single extract operation, so you don't have out of order > > extraction of libc or some such. > > You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, > No comment on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of FreeNAS/TrueOS? > > That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the user > community, you yourself said this would never be imported into FreeBSD > base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package Base", > as it is not, that is a different project. Taking the last comment on this thread to ask a question and maybe refocus a little. The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in the first place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which components they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix and match base packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in /usr rather than $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock install while person B wanted to replace, picking a random example, BSD tar with GNU tar. Isn't that the real advantage of pkgbase? If OTOH it's binary updates V 2.0, what's the point? I'm a little rhetorical here but you get my point. If I want ipfw instead pf or ipfilter instead of the others I should have the freedom. Similarly if I want vim instead of vi I should have the choice to install vim as /usr/bin/vi. Otherwise all the effort to replace binary updates makes no sense. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 20:10:03 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB08159C136 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:10:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc33.google.com (mail-yw1-xc33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A36CB70DC2 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:10:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc33.google.com with SMTP id q11so4248561ywb.0 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:10:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=lLyiKb28mtYm60BVLM2qqFxOLAJAwlyrKFppCz75E2E=; b=RYscBf/+KcqIu+Z81F71pcyVf6BCEihOiBVDzzaj/E3u1b5zjZkHDbB3aXpJSXp/kQ oogRKyKCu25MeZgGzbhVBPRzluLLzh7yOjOIWqZzd9qyI6Zrdvs3hJe/9uFcMwGd8t6I ZYCkGSH2KmwlUlbc4RaGRhKeVZMk+mfIpQF0MrEF1Qq1HBI70SVJc3/cpAOZ/nq/fEGq BM3QxwTlVdAspP2vOC4ZyAefRE4qlWxuSP6VZXVdmAFtMNVKNxHG8VsJmWFvCUxxdfgD 2NMczCSvz87RRSvz2lSMzLrASribm0QkyE3vJCIRJ+ooow/2JrtyXWTZJyZGbCDIHv7O v2JA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=lLyiKb28mtYm60BVLM2qqFxOLAJAwlyrKFppCz75E2E=; b=Do7LBughVslcOL+WbLbQZKvtB1eTwVx6xjRUe5rtnl6xM1VrQCQ8M34ef8fqgrWbPC 4GVnrThprH4B4mmgVi6Ku7d+Id2oQNblndR8zLPF8NYFJh1T+6JdgP5VGthIPCziHjPb WUxKLIHvLSGNTZd3A75zON0w9f+riH6h0/D825C5Eze0n1KINn5J7IB4z9cs+EDNPQzV 5lc53sb4RNeKgCCOHzElX2ZJWKh+Hh0/JnIjK1e85O5ibSe4yvrvRKSlFRAW6DniOrWy PGhwu98XZ7AY5bXKDI7X9rjQHGWcx9HMEd6q5ngmXa9qlJa9SpYuPRAc3F0S4OCL93mt 6lhA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUkS/4vJN5XGlPXdBz520TPbC1o/jXZLNWr3X7gIctR/xho713W hK4EVOt2j1pD2AEPFcB7f/Do1/lvj5U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyUA5LIwwiGHM5DQoo7be4fyPKALLmJvAC5dNcN1/zQqlFsmm8CNgANtIL+jC2WWXXNL8L5xQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:844c:: with SMTP id u73mr26632946ywf.70.1556568601432; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KrisYogaC930 ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f2sm1771695ywb.79.2019.04.29.13.10.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'Cy Schubert'" Cc: References: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" of "Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:22 -0700." <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:09:59 -0400 Message-ID: <00fb01d4fec7$86559650$9300c2f0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJwntuDUvMXv+H62eTQaW+A+ndXw6UcStqw Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A36CB70DC2 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=RYscBf/+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.84)[ip: (-8.75), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.16), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.972,0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:10:03 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Cy Schubert > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 3:31 PM > To: Rodney W. Grimes > Cc: Kris Moore ; FreeBSD Stable stable@freebsd.org>; freebsd-ports@freebsd.org; Goran Meki=E6 > ; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; FreeBSD Current > ; freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd- > pkg@freebsd.org; Emmanuel Vadot > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >=20 > In message <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney > W. > Grimes" > writes: > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > > > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using > > > > > specific to > > > > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as > > > > apart of our CFT. > > > > > > > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", > > > > calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, and miss > > > > leading. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I disagree. > > Which is fine. > > > > > This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using to = wrangle > > > boot-environments. Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the CFT. > > > These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on > > > UFS, no difference. If anything are probably safer due to being = able > > > to update all of userland in single extract operation, so you = don't > > > have out of order extraction of libc or some such. > > > > You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, No = comment > > on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of FreeNAS/TrueOS? > > > > That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the user > > community, you yourself said this would never be imported into = FreeBSD > > base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package > > Base", as it is not, that is a different project. >=20 > Taking the last comment on this thread to ask a question and maybe = refocus > a little. >=20 > The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in the first > place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which = components > they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix and match base > packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in /usr rather = than > $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock install while = person > B wanted to replace, picking a random example, BSD tar with GNU tar. = Isn't > that the real advantage of pkgbase? >=20 > If OTOH it's binary updates V 2.0, what's the point? I'm a little rhetorical here > but you get my point. If I want ipfw instead pf or ipfilter instead of = the others > I should have the freedom. Similarly if I want vim instead of vi I = should have > the choice to install vim as /usr/bin/vi. Otherwise all the effort to replace > binary updates makes no sense. >=20 >=20 That is a fantastic point. The way we've been doing it is with the os/userland meta-pkg. Using ZoL as an example, we build userland with = the ZFS options disabled, then added a ZOL option to userland, which makes sysutils/zol a depend of userland meta-pkg. Over time I can see this becoming a trend, were we replace bits of base = (by setting WITHOUT_*) and injecting the ports version of those bits via = regular pkg depends. Good candidates would be tools like svn / git, mailers, compilers, shells, editors, etc. Ironically this was an issue in the current pkg base implementation that = led us to flattening out the userland package. We found that run-time = removal of specific packages just flat out didn't work. I.E. pkg delete FreeBSD-zfs didn't work without re-compiling all the things in advance using the = proper WITHOUT_* flags. Same for trying to remove RADIUS support, or others. = Too many things tended to change in seemingly un-related packages, you'd = almost need a full set of flavors for a lot of WITH/WITHOUT combinations for = that to be viable.=20 Additionally, this was why we combined base/ports into a single pkg = repo. By building both through poudriere, it makes it possible to properly = interject depends and upgrade in lock-step. Really changes the paradigm of what is base/ports in a positive way IMHO. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 20:11:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB8C159C3BD; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:11:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mj-mailinglist@gmx.de) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D9E771048; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:11:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mj-mailinglist@gmx.de) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1556568683; bh=/CohqdqlEu9l7zyZzFBroyuRIPeYMCAEkqd5kWSNrHQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Subject:Date; b=BauOpAtNH5+UmAjdWGbA55JFXURk9F/XRyIruuKlh0lgZc6Lzf1f+YalBWxty+vRv 45KVaqpqphjsSe/SKOekQZNC7uMGT8OoyYx2n+b0Xl16FBspU98h65f9P6Jxi0LF2f k0dlbMagAabPS+OgjcxUGjgtz511RlZSeBY7G65U= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [89.244.165.76] ([89.244.165.76]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bs47.server.lan [172.19.170.99]) (via HTTP); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:58:25 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Martin Jakob" To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Creating jails from packagebase Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:58:25 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BvPKLBcTXcq8IIif+hdB8/qCX8ywM3ewIddm/CE6fz6UhE8chufnS5+WzXgu8z0KCkP0m CgYM36kzeAf1qvFFOi2W4ePUomnr4lIz5U+NFI0PxQOA4Z9viDx0aJcNnYAgHP0oGKi1lDX0aV6O N2oSOIikdG/QtiuZl9x+leyD7s2CA2uqP+oN6t5zpQ4zGy0lkY08L2o4gun36UsDjpU/PMxSmeDD +mZGu9J2svMceX5q5Wx0S8VWpLdBRKEEDNo/xyhiML4viqXvisFfF2gnJ5h+kaYcgBGgeoAAf+yh rM= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:IqJibukkDaM=:4HZwr2TVn6Lk6o0c6GOW+/ S5zju2Vl8DfSGF8pBa0ApeUq6IFqAMb1EM7Ajwq0x412O8aNxfRrZ0qRuxAIstw1FnKH3rcP4 trbEPXhg3zrnIuXbU01UvKDauuDrEjIg8zlVH24Bd7BYHlFEXMwCkVA9FNij/KmbmhPHR0C82 3lKWGtORztXkSUbfy6NGoBdHMAMGKyVs9do9PVPAThUvPXGrEC3w9h5OZ5PyAJnf76hqQ6Kki l/oXdgYNGMFzdZpeRBEzqWZccaJMJoOSLlwRTUlG8OqBmJyAOzYRbUWvDtuF6sX/Zyeo/2ggY lsfC36qMqKVCOOEqJKZmPFylfIpeG3ZcGy9e9qh6bWhzFdHwvLB+dO4O4cW/kr1+RUK+urMJ6 2zNegX+gINXv0YSq2wkDHHJNnmQOIEH77ZRfuhFsBAHh0PLU7uu4vNWfUxZE4J0ao4D+y9z3m elGAwrm3+Rr8lYSa7Kz+pM8TxWezsRxJwDlQD8u/SLPSvq7TL+3U9H+i1ivbKvSWvI6C8sRIo +ibMqjrOPu08G/wJEP+FAFXgHNQxIgJ0UIymPwDL97J9tPrnAjwb1qQckDl0hn93MPimFLt6K Q+uCKqPHf38NXvUlv+6Dn8pOXHEM0JCtUbmXHYstqBA0sE9zZKQl+KrQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9D9E771048 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=BauOpAtN; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mj-mailinglist@gmx.de designates 212.227.15.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mj-mailinglist@gmx.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.165.244.89.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.15.0/25]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.de]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.de]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mx00.emig.gmx.net,mx01.emig.gmx.net]; MIME_HTML_ONLY(0.20)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.99)[ip: (-5.39), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.40), asn: 8560(1.87), country: DE(-0.01)]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.338,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.de]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[19.15.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." 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Grimes" , Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, =?utf-8?Q?Goran_Meki=C4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, Emmanuel Vadot Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> To: Cy Schubert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.8) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3D8E471344 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=k9foXJI/; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jmaloney@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jmaloney@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.71 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[11]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.920,0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.78)[ip: (1.55), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.16), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:39:51 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:12:48 -0000 With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components = such as sendmail with a port option. That does entirely solve the = problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a = rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could solve = that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. Joe Maloney Quality Engineering Manager / iXsystems Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source > On Apr 29, 2019, at 3:31 PM, Cy Schubert = wrote: >=20 > In message <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W.=20= > Grimes" > writes: >>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W. Grimes < >>> freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: >>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Correct, this is ZFS only. And it's something we're using specific = to >>>> FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it as = apart of >>>> our CFT. >>>>=20 >>>> Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", >>>> calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, >>>> and miss leading. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sorry, I disagree. >> Which is fine. >>=20 >>> This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using >>> to wrangle boot-environments. Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the = CFT. >>> These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on = UFS, no >>> difference. If anything are probably safer due to being able to = update all >>> of userland in single extract operation, so you don't have out of = order >>> extraction of libc or some such. >>=20 >> You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, >> No comment on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of = FreeNAS/TrueOS? >>=20 >> That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the user >> community, you yourself said this would never be imported into = FreeBSD >> base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package = Base", >> as it is not, that is a different project. >=20 > Taking the last comment on this thread to ask a question and maybe=20 > refocus a little. >=20 > The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in the=20= > first place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which=20= > components they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix and=20= > match base packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in=20 > /usr rather than $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock=20= > install while person B wanted to replace, picking a random example, = BSD=20 > tar with GNU tar. Isn't that the real advantage of pkgbase? >=20 > If OTOH it's binary updates V 2.0, what's the point? I'm a little=20 > rhetorical here but you get my point. If I want ipfw instead pf or=20 > ipfilter instead of the others I should have the freedom. Similarly if=20= > I want vim instead of vi I should have the choice to install vim as=20 > /usr/bin/vi. Otherwise all the effort to replace binary updates makes=20= > no sense. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Cheers, > Cy Schubert > FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org >=20 > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 20:50:06 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF00F159DDC7 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:50:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (khavrinen.csail.mit.edu [IPv6:2603:400a:0:7ec::801e:1c14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "khavrinen.csail.mit.edu", Issuer "Client CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 804AF74B89 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:50:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x3TKo0VD092499 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL CN=khavrinen.csail.mit.edu issuer=Client+20CA); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x3TKo0iJ092498; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:00 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman To: Cy Schubert Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.1 (amd64-portbld-freebsd11.2) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (khavrinen.csail.mit.edu [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:50:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 804AF74B89 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=csail.mit.edu; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu designates 2603:400a:0:7ec::801e:1c14 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[khavrinen.csail.mit.edu,incoming.csail.mit.edu]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[csail.mit.edu,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.67)[-0.667,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.01)[asn: 3(0.02), country: US(-0.06)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[wollman@csail.mit.edu,wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3, ipnet:2603:400a::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[wollman@csail.mit.edu, wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:50:07 -0000 < said: > The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in the > first place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which > components they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix and > match base packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in > /usr rather than $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock > install while person B wanted to replace, picking a random example, BSD > tar with GNU tar. Isn't that the real advantage of pkgbase? No. The "real" advantage of pkgbase is that it allows the distributor of a customized version of the operating system to support binary-only updates, without all the (non-trivial) infrastructure of running a custom FreeBSD-update builder and distribution server. Consider my position: I have about 30 servers (and another ~10 jails) that all run the same local build of FreeBSD. Right now, the only reliable way to update them is to NFS-mount /usr/src and /usr/obj from my build server, and run a (slow) "make installworld". It would literally save me hours out of every upgrade (or base-system security fix) to be able to install compressed binary packages downloaded over http, and I'd have better security because binary packages are signed. For my use case, I don't much care what the granularity is, so long as I can safely upgrade (or update) the kernel independently of the userland and independently of third-party packages -- just two packages (kernel and userland) would suffice, although I'd probably prefer the runtime libraries to be in a separate package just for safety. I'm not distributing packages to third parties, I just want to be able to install and upgrade my packages on my fleet of servers and jails quickly and safely. This is not the entirety of the use cases the project as a whole needs to support, but it's a major *end-user* use case. (And I've said as much in various surveys.) -GAWollman From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 20:54:06 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB8B159E001 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:54:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69FD57504C for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:54:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id LDHdhvdzKldkPLDHfhhfSF; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:53:58 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Ko4zJleN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=oexKYjalfGEA:10 a=3wrpl_rMAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=7ASnObcnAAAA:8 a=3Wcr1kJK1ZeYeQlFzn4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=wVKCuHpmm_5FZbsenW_a:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=pj5rz7AvTRnaHDIeLm0D:22 Received: from DESKTOP-IJTJOA3.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BCBD6238; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:53:28 -0700 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <00fb01d4fec7$86559650$9300c2f0$@ixsystems.com> References: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" of "Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:22 -0700." <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <00fb01d4fec7$86559650$9300c2f0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: kris@ixsystems.com CC: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <890199D5-C118-4EAE-A3E0-0364B0BC3A2F@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNuL6XmXqLE8zdyiljVEtu5fXR8o5zYmfQxZVEcF8Cj2rlXcbsFUCGrK9UrEHIPEuIbaOJTiJl+TESUXkzaHQ/DoAPzUcCHJLcRam+tucHNU9xli0Mmi qDbpCkUF7TxG9mIYvgJ9I/Eh8tQYY/i0TCma4LQTn92RPQn1A0OpntIEVExC3FGJl2drNa/+9uTdWimPI17IyU+ijarbtwrBOCOx8OssqWdNVEItN/9iEmMO X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 69FD57504C X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[233.154.66.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11,17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.50)[ip: (-6.73), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.21), asn: 6327(-2.45), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:54:06 -0000 On April 29, 2019 1:09:59 PM PDT, kris@ixsystems=2Ecom wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Cy Schubert >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 3:31 PM >> To: Rodney W=2E Grimes >> Cc: Kris Moore ; FreeBSD Stable > stable@freebsd=2Eorg>; freebsd-ports@freebsd=2Eorg; Goran Meki=C4=87 >> ; freebsd-hackers@freebsd=2Eorg; FreeBSD Current >> ; freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd= - >> pkg@freebsd=2Eorg; Emmanuel Vadot >> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >>=20 >> In message <201904291441=2Ex3TEfMid072751@gndrsh=2Ednsmgr=2Enet>, "Rodn= ey >> W=2E >> Grimes" >> writes: >> > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W=2E Grimes < >> > > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh=2Ednsmgr=2Enet> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only=2E And it's something we're using >> > > > > specific to >> > > > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it >as >> > > > apart of our CFT=2E >> > > > >> > > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", >> > > > calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, and >miss >> > > > leading=2E >> > > > >> > > >> > > Sorry, I disagree=2E >> > Which is fine=2E >> > >> > > This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using to >wrangle >> > > boot-environments=2E Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the CFT=2E >> > > These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on >> > > UFS, no difference=2E If anything are probably safer due to being >able >> > > to update all of userland in single extract operation, so you >don't >> > > have out of order extraction of libc or some such=2E >> > >> > You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, No >comment >> > on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of FreeNAS/TrueOS? >> > >> > That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the >user >> > community, you yourself said this would never be imported into >FreeBSD >> > base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package >> > Base", as it is not, that is a different project=2E >>=20 >> Taking the last comment on this thread to ask a question and maybe >refocus >> a little=2E >>=20 >> The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in >the >first >> place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which >components >> they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix and match >base >> packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in /usr rather >than >> $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock install while >person >> B wanted to replace, picking a random example, BSD tar with GNU tar=2E >Isn't >> that the real advantage of pkgbase? >>=20 >> If OTOH it's binary updates V 2=2E0, what's the point? I'm a little >rhetorical here >> but you get my point=2E If I want ipfw instead pf or ipfilter instead >of the >others >> I should have the freedom=2E Similarly if I want vim instead of vi I >should >have >> the choice to install vim as /usr/bin/vi=2E Otherwise all the effort to >replace >> binary updates makes no sense=2E >>=20 >>=20 > >That is a fantastic point=2E The way we've been doing it is with the >os/userland meta-pkg=2E Using ZoL as an example, we build userland with >the >ZFS options disabled, then added a ZOL option to userland, which makes >sysutils/zol a depend of userland meta-pkg=2E > >Over time I can see this becoming a trend, were we replace bits of base >(by >setting WITHOUT_*) and injecting the ports version of those bits via >regular >pkg depends=2E Good candidates would be tools like svn / git, mailers, >compilers, shells, editors, etc=2E > >Ironically this was an issue in the current pkg base implementation >that led >us to flattening out the userland package=2E We found that run-time >removal of >specific packages just flat out didn't work=2E I=2EE=2E pkg delete >FreeBSD-zfs >didn't work without re-compiling all the things in advance using the >proper >WITHOUT_* flags=2E Same for trying to remove RADIUS support, or others=2E >Too >many things tended to change in seemingly un-related packages, you'd >almost >need a full set of flavors for a lot of WITH/WITHOUT combinations for >that >to be viable=2E=20 > >Additionally, this was why we combined base/ports into a single pkg >repo=2E By >building both through poudriere, it makes it possible to properly >interject >depends and upgrade in lock-step=2E Really changes the paradigm of what >is >base/ports in a positive way IMHO=2E I don't think we want to disable parts of base=2E We should build base pac= kages that can be optionally replaced by ports with flavour @base=2E Ports could be built with flavours @base, with $PREFIX /usr, or @ports (or= some better name), with $PREFIX /usr/local=2E Pkgbase could build the base packages negating the need for WITHOUT_* or t= he base packages could be excluded from base using WITHOUT_* and new ports = be used to build those same packages=2E In this case, IMO, the implementati= on doesn't matter at the moment but getting straight what we want is the im= portant point here=2E If this is indeed the goal, IMO should be, we can bikeshed the implementat= ion details in another thread on another day=2E I'd like to focus on what i= s pkgbase to look like to the end-user when we're finally done=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 00:26:33 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AC415A1D1A for ; 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Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:25:54 -0700 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Garrett Wollman CC: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfN2Pxp0sPJ25lJaD0Fg/Lpk0ZIO9XBJbgUR+SgmnC7DXC8leQM9vpJbqWLG1s6c6U3qp8sJ9NYe6t8PptFJ06uBGBD1qQwdnur6VK4iMVry73cBFGLC0 U9v8jJhHY/FDGTJ1t0W1IsvnhFrXOen3zrya6V3glPyRr0HhSEtp52Ro3uvj5OSjYo6iOMD43UzMY63ITfVzDuwdDbEXILV0+JCpyVKsLlyj4y1hYuUwljV7 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B218084121 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.65 / 15.00]; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 00:26:33 -0000 On April 29, 2019 1:50:00 PM PDT, Garrett Wollman wrote: >< said: > >> The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in >the=20 >> first place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which > >> components they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix >and=20 >> match base packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in=20 >> /usr rather than $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock=20 >> install while person B wanted to replace, picking a random example, >BSD=20 >> tar with GNU tar=2E Isn't that the real advantage of pkgbase? > >No=2E The "real" advantage of pkgbase is that it allows the distributor >of a customized version of the operating system to support binary-only >updates, without all the (non-trivial) infrastructure of running a >custom FreeBSD-update builder and distribution server=2E > >Consider my position: I have about 30 servers (and another ~10 jails) >that all run the same local build of FreeBSD=2E Right now, the only >reliable way to update them is to NFS-mount /usr/src and /usr/obj from >my build server, and run a (slow) "make installworld"=2E It would >literally save me hours out of every upgrade (or base-system security >fix) to be able to install compressed binary packages downloaded over >http, and I'd have better security because binary packages are >signed=2E > >For my use case, I don't much care what the granularity is, so long as >I can safely upgrade (or update) the kernel independently of the >userland and independently of third-party packages -- just two >packages (kernel and userland) would suffice, although I'd probably >prefer the runtime libraries to be in a separate package just for >safety=2E > >I'm not distributing packages to third parties, I just want to be able >to install and upgrade my packages on my fleet of servers and jails >quickly and safely=2E This is not the entirety of the use cases the >project as a whole needs to support, but it's a major *end-user* use >case=2E (And I've said as much in various surveys=2E) > >-GAWollman An anaconda-like installer for freebsd could do that=2E Also a perfect job= for cfengine or ansible=2E Deploy and use a playbook to enforce policy=2E You don't need to break up base into packages (not arguing against packagi= ng) to gain the benefits of configuration management=2E As for updating, freebsd-update is mostly there to accomplish your require= ment without pkgbase=2E Which begs the question, if we're simply replacing= freebsd-update and it does most of what we want why the extra effort? Unle= ss we want to solve more than just this problem? Which BTW I think we do=2E I've seen pkgbase as a building block to build an anaconda-like installer = complete with scripting language=2E The ability to pick and choose packages= as many Linux distros do is one part of it=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 02:41:57 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5185B15805DA for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 02:41:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28566887BF for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 02:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x3U2ffIq075776; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x3U2femm075775; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201904300241.x3U2femm075775@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> To: Cy Schubert Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:41:40 -0700 (PDT) CC: Garrett Wollman , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 28566887BF X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.846,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.73)[-0.726,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.21)[0.213,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: gndrsh.dnsmgr.net]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.05)[ip: (0.17), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.08), asn: 13868(0.06), country: US(-0.06)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 02:41:57 -0000 > On April 29, 2019 1:50:00 PM PDT, Garrett Wollman wrote: > >< > said: > > > >> The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in > >the > >> first place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which > > > >> components they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix > >and > >> match base packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in > >> /usr rather than $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock > >> install while person B wanted to replace, picking a random example, > >BSD > >> tar with GNU tar. Isn't that the real advantage of pkgbase? > > > >No. The "real" advantage of pkgbase is that it allows the distributor > >of a customized version of the operating system to support binary-only > >updates, without all the (non-trivial) infrastructure of running a > >custom FreeBSD-update builder and distribution server. > > > >Consider my position: I have about 30 servers (and another ~10 jails) > >that all run the same local build of FreeBSD. Right now, the only > >reliable way to update them is to NFS-mount /usr/src and /usr/obj from > >my build server, and run a (slow) "make installworld". It would > >literally save me hours out of every upgrade (or base-system security > >fix) to be able to install compressed binary packages downloaded over > >http, and I'd have better security because binary packages are > >signed. > > > >For my use case, I don't much care what the granularity is, so long as > >I can safely upgrade (or update) the kernel independently of the > >userland and independently of third-party packages -- just two > >packages (kernel and userland) would suffice, although I'd probably > >prefer the runtime libraries to be in a separate package just for > >safety. > > > >I'm not distributing packages to third parties, I just want to be able > >to install and upgrade my packages on my fleet of servers and jails > >quickly and safely. This is not the entirety of the use cases the > >project as a whole needs to support, but it's a major *end-user* use > >case. (And I've said as much in various surveys.) > > > >-GAWollman > > An anaconda-like installer for freebsd could do that. Also a perfect job for cfengine or ansible. Deploy and use a playbook to enforce policy. https://anaconda-installer.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ > You don't need to break up base into packages (not arguing against packaging) to gain the benefits of configuration management. > > As for updating, freebsd-update is mostly there to accomplish your requirement without pkgbase. Which begs the question, if we're simply replacing freebsd-update and it does most of what we want why the extra effort? Unless we want to solve more than just this problem? Which BTW I think we do. > > I've seen pkgbase as a building block to build an anaconda-like installer complete with scripting language. The ability to pick and choose packages as many Linux distros do is one part of it. What seems to be confusing here is that TrueOS/FreeNAS's "package base" and the work that has been on going IN the FreeBSD base system for 2+ (3?) years are 2 different things with different goal sets and this CFT has very much muddied that water as to what is what. Is there an advocation by iXsystems and TrueOS to replace what is in the base system now with this new Go implementation in ports? Are they orthagonal? If so can we please rename one? -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 03:25:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913821581301 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:25:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmaloney@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2c.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F32B589CA1 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:25:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmaloney@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2c.google.com with SMTP id g29so4888640ywk.3 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:25:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=r3wt8Ka/gEpopTKdVO1uzaTJ3ZVQ0NgugE/qUmB/P2Q=; b=rRSqKR+0qijZ3IlBE18+HTrdFNiMe28f5hgMTxq+pNb7qMVRNtloLxlWkTQtAci1BY dafQpSHxB4aA73cnMeZA2Kv8K2GV5aBileT+eoRvKHw/qrhyuHNZXHsipDMYh/fywEtg x/iRXz5Mv+URl/YJfSv5qHBxT5wj2iBgd+5Yr6JleI3FJfsgfju56jXST5IDV1xT27sm Nzf6Jiw9dbJ7K2gwSM23mUdw5Aqp4+FuPQg5nCivxVycQq+eYQyPpwxwQ6KjzDevsgXS PZZXynrvrFIrW2Dc4E0C3NG28f8ic20UUpZV1CrRenmrWmSntjNB/PIcb7xjKzDx3azs nuhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=r3wt8Ka/gEpopTKdVO1uzaTJ3ZVQ0NgugE/qUmB/P2Q=; b=WMsT/VcJwWPEKBPIdf2HzLPShLAIrGOs6yU0wSRzhayj1aIPYCDjHSRpz8weLQLg/B j9cctkSXN8RUWkjDpIbO1olIJ6LaTM14g+7Yqda6Vz9mNRo44wogSlzQ23KFUi8cJG1T 1Mf4emwEYlC2Z49sq8YvXn4Jg/jHu/KlVep4yeaA8UJ+f5a8obLxtkfobQd+hsyW+DQA b5A2bH8mWu83cPpFDykS5bDR21ju4NwCBEVNeEXBsrU9IwY/ktx8b3glBNRbpjPr/ORF idMnnFS341C141KsomQhe9lzWNMIXjoDBlWBuez7pPLfG23f/6dOWp/VlJJ4hzGs2Tn2 DiCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVbi1iu/Z5r7pvgJosrA9PNFDFwW7krGZBtHiyP2i7eGEKwzM51 vJqUy37SXN8i4Va3+I0FI3EzETRjWvRVXA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxcZnS7tUA/KLUnDk5BKyNTad+Tr/sLu4Pi2k8aN/EYaIqpfFXSNEFw8alDQ/UzOuDwRu50zA== X-Received: by 2002:a25:d9cd:: with SMTP id q196mr54909899ybg.410.1556594731224; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.97] (71-136-149-239.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net. [71.136.149.239]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a80sm6548611ywe.78.2019.04.29.20.25.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:25:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Maloney Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.8\)) Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:25:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: <201904300241.x3U2femm075775@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Cc: Cy Schubert , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org To: "Rodney W. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:25:34 -0000 What you describe is the sysup tool for managing updates with boot = environments which is not part of the CFT ISO. The pkg upgrade command = is used to update the base packages. Sysup is not necessary unless you = want a wrapper to create boot environments. =20 Having said that I cannot describe the problems I=E2=80=99ve had for = several years with FreeBSD=E2=80=99s pkg base without muddying the = waters with this CFT. So I sort of agree it should be called =E2=80=9Cpla= nned pkg-base=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cactually has a chance at being = integratabtle pkg-base=E2=80=9D. Try the ISO I think you will like it. Joe Maloney Quality Engineering Manager / iXsystems Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source > On Apr 29, 2019, at 10:41 PM, Rodney W. Grimes = wrote: >=20 >> On April 29, 2019 1:50:00 PM PDT, Garrett Wollman = wrote: >>> <>> said: >>>=20 >>>> The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in >>> the=20 >>>> first place? My impression was that it allowed people to select = which >>>=20 >>>> components they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix >>> and=20 >>>> match base packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in=20= >>>> /usr rather than $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a = stock=20 >>>> install while person B wanted to replace, picking a random example, >>> BSD=20 >>>> tar with GNU tar. Isn't that the real advantage of pkgbase? >>>=20 >>> No. The "real" advantage of pkgbase is that it allows the = distributor >>> of a customized version of the operating system to support = binary-only >>> updates, without all the (non-trivial) infrastructure of running a >>> custom FreeBSD-update builder and distribution server. >>>=20 >>> Consider my position: I have about 30 servers (and another ~10 = jails) >>> that all run the same local build of FreeBSD. Right now, the only >>> reliable way to update them is to NFS-mount /usr/src and /usr/obj = from >>> my build server, and run a (slow) "make installworld". It would >>> literally save me hours out of every upgrade (or base-system = security >>> fix) to be able to install compressed binary packages downloaded = over >>> http, and I'd have better security because binary packages are >>> signed. >>>=20 >>> For my use case, I don't much care what the granularity is, so long = as >>> I can safely upgrade (or update) the kernel independently of the >>> userland and independently of third-party packages -- just two >>> packages (kernel and userland) would suffice, although I'd probably >>> prefer the runtime libraries to be in a separate package just for >>> safety. >>>=20 >>> I'm not distributing packages to third parties, I just want to be = able >>> to install and upgrade my packages on my fleet of servers and jails >>> quickly and safely. This is not the entirety of the use cases the >>> project as a whole needs to support, but it's a major *end-user* use >>> case. (And I've said as much in various surveys.) >>>=20 >>> -GAWollman >>=20 >> An anaconda-like installer for freebsd could do that. Also a perfect = job for cfengine or ansible. Deploy and use a playbook to enforce = policy. >=20 > https://anaconda-installer.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ = >=20 >> You don't need to break up base into packages (not arguing against = packaging) to gain the benefits of configuration management. >>=20 >> As for updating, freebsd-update is mostly there to accomplish your = requirement without pkgbase. Which begs the question, if we're simply = replacing freebsd-update and it does most of what we want why the extra = effort? Unless we want to solve more than just this problem? Which BTW I = think we do. >>=20 >> I've seen pkgbase as a building block to build an anaconda-like = installer complete with scripting language. The ability to pick and = choose packages as many Linux distros do is one part of it. >=20 > What seems to be confusing here is that TrueOS/FreeNAS's > "package base" and the work that has been on going IN > the FreeBSD base system for 2+ (3?) years are 2=20 > different things with different goal sets and this > CFT has very much muddied that water as to what is > what. >=20 > Is there an advocation by iXsystems and TrueOS to replace > what is in the base system now with this new Go implementation > in ports? >=20 > Are they orthagonal? If so can we please rename one? >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rod Grimes = rgrimes@freebsd.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org = mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-pkgbase = > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-pkgbase-unsubscribe@freebsd.org = " From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 06:32:40 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B238D158519B for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from franco@opnsense.org) Received: from mail.opnsense.org (mail.opnsense.org [IPv6:2001:1af8:4700:a129:100::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBAAB8ECB3 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:32:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from franco@opnsense.org) Received: from localhost (mail.opnsense.org [127.0.0.1]) by mail.opnsense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F8E14EC61; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:32:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.opnsense.org Received: from mail.opnsense.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.opnsense.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O94og1jqvLf6; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:32:30 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=opnsense.org; s=dkim; t=1556605950; bh=SnPtqVtaFqzzzOuCZL4IZsrPVs8LYkGwKu/dSXPF2kg=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=LEZDmZSrH2DXsMRNe4eA+a6dnbOzl4IOAFRNjmAiKL9ObpJ0tr1k3BvYvt3ivGF5t lHetEfg+1X7s0MzQLF7cqEq1KH+RJRGswjKPiN2xOmPo63VXAWOHxAQO6fBvKNxRdz /8YTovMBkO9EzpP4REO1y+zaRnevxxoBt9/I0L2Q= Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.8\)) Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base From: Franco Fichtner In-Reply-To: <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:32:29 +0200 Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7B9F9F37-9DCB-4B9D-BEF1-8C3092331DD0@opnsense.org> References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> To: Cy Schubert X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:32:40 -0000 > On 30. Apr 2019, at 2:25 AM, Cy Schubert = wrote: >=20 > As for updating, freebsd-update is mostly there to accomplish your = requirement without pkgbase. Which begs the question, if we're simply = replacing freebsd-update and it does most of what we want why the extra = effort? Unless we want to solve more than just this problem? Which BTW I = think we do. There's hbsd-update, pfSense-upgrade and opnsense-update precisely because pkgbase was pulled ever since it's first ETA in 11.0 and the subsequent non-delivery. freebsd-update is not the answer. Speaking for opnsense-update[1] specifically it's a shell script with a bit of bloat for handling package updates as normal and otherwise use base.txz and kernel.txz and arbitrary signatures in pkg (built upon the idea of pkg.txz.sig) to verify their signature directly linked to the fingerprints of the pkg repo used -- all well under 1000 LOC counting whitespaces for readability and battle- proven since 2015. My point is simply this: The sole focus on "the" pkgbase that will solve all issues and the unwillingness to cooperate on "pkgbase" at the same time has made the situation much much worse than it should have been for FreeBSD users and blocked the road for other types of improvements in the update area for a number of years now. It's time to step up instead of further dividing the topic so I want to thank Kris for his effort very much. Cheers, Franco [1] = https://raw.githubusercontent.com/opnsense/update/master/update/opnsense-u= pdate.sh= From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 08:23:12 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8927158867E; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:23:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theravensnest.org [46.226.110.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "theravensnest.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22C2A931AD; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:23:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [10.164.186.150] ([167.220.197.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x3U8MAWr015104 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:22:10 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail: Host [167.220.197.150] claimed to be [10.164.186.150] Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Joe Maloney , Cy Schubert Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, Emmanuel Vadot References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> From: David Chisnall Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:22:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 22C2A931AD X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.97 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.976,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:46.226.108.0/22, country:FR] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:20:56 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:23:13 -0000 On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components such as sendmail with a port option. That does entirely solve the problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create a custom base image. Great. But how do I express dependencies in ports on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specific base package, but how does this work in your model? For example, if I have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of the base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to install it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of my existing version as part of the install process? More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of use case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need some mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this mechanism is better than using small individual packages. David From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 11:24:16 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1F9158D5CD; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:24:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mj-mailinglist@gmx.de) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEFB16B6E4; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:24:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mj-mailinglist@gmx.de) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1556623444; bh=C48Y2DAFDvdSncQPnRp9EYT/pMwLrRMv8yayxyDZlIU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Subject:Date; b=Vbmz8EC0XPWBxF8fDBSybwT1pcjBarTJcrcew6W1uANckhbJ8PcJQjvdfIK/tzvFR PRp1zfBSng4KGBGUk+9YqxQ2V7FTX1htiNUCjoSFDo0MwH+T0C4465gSysCMLd8VFP oGZVPDE6wSylwNf+BRldTgKSBjOvmkDGpUWN49CU= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [194.59.36.88] ([194.59.36.88]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bs07.server.lan [172.19.170.56]) (via HTTP); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:24:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Martin Jakob" To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Creating jails from pkgbase packages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:24:04 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:tLU9i8MVgGDKBk2v80XuLSUrQJhK5X/hN4cPMCASgMLS+yH6CSD4AHSf5VDYu8vw/a9A0 WkV/5UwVeeCCKbvb1+Rlm1HZ7V0mkqret1zFY9OFthT5j6iqusnI82jTjkknr9jMRxn9IK9PvWyc +4L8HJSPSfZXtt1qz7sUuJF+Oy57kQXPSZYebSRw4HGhO85S+kdCIVI/OHNLy2rzx3ISZzeK13ue c1VNgwdpBT+8kYqt2tntRWYKQSa/1DCWucY8aLpbuH/lB9QWwzzd7I8teiwyjj5MpaGMHxOviJaD SY= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:j6NES14qW/Q=:F5EETivzkJXM15DfCvMA7z fgKbYi/Prx72FrWmT6wQxalUYmUKQQg5u+eGpeVR8FWQFvzwQs9nMykas8NpUPCRUWXcV+ox6 0ZwCRektshKyl+HLbU7pPIjU7v4io7NZ9v4/hYWbArRklexs79K7WopcUg0wAD8qmgAdONWmA h1dATRYzzuH5OJU8ouVtzff+3E0lgAinErhRNT4UxjbVtxdm+czh0VjB4choemWxSncXbLnNR MU09f3QpVR5VGHKbGUxZ1cKGzzRIsXbkLe7MwK5HL8tfgD4D9LERdD2raK0F/kkfx/EnCdYIE C4iFnRr3W/2IKYxIK7BAZuxuZzAkT320MjS0qvQXsUPjsaT8/MbEtF1Vu75cniQNEcoVYT8tt 6qwe0P2pIUJ86BKx6Tpx4ot3GedLfjxatz10VIqVFJoLL1txjBhABiqgGMV4OdrgwyTZEYS1+ fQo28klv9QY/Dnq7n9tlm5F2RxYmbGuUoEhWj7zMyu0eXJ1X0RFHaf9Qsh8/6UZDkdNWQMxvj ASQLmSLpHOeXIiBwVbhx2bhAOUL1xVXAEoR4u2Bm5N2L+noi4mRjLDhixuSU4vS3zNQado3LH 6D+cbevu9F8ZRIodqfqEZMXKdmKN4B376+cGPiKhCMY/K76sVqMJziKw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: DEFB16B6E4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=Vbmz8EC0; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mj-mailinglist@gmx.de designates 212.227.17.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mj-mailinglist@gmx.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[22.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.17.0/27]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.de]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.de]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx00.emig.gmx.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.897,0]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(-0.85)[ip: (-4.73), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.40), asn: 8560(1.87), country: DE(-0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.de]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:24:16 -0000 My first attempt seems to be empty when its arrived at the maillinglist, so= i try it again in pure text format (i hope)=2E Sorry, if there are unwante= d duplicates=2E=20 Since a few days i was experimenting with jails build from pkgbase (i got = the idea from Michael W=2E Lucas Freebsd Jails book)=2E Now there is some d= iscussion about pkgbase again :) So i want to share my experience, i hope this is not offtopic to this conv= ersation and my writing style is not too offputting=2E=2E=2E =C2=A0 This experiments were made on an resently updated 12-stable system=2E Sorr= y, i dont have a system with head=C2=A0available right now=2E =C2=A0 Anyway, this is what i did: - I first set the variable "REPODIR=3D/usr/repo" in /etc/make=2Econf, to h= ave a nonvolatile repository (is this the right place/variable to do this?)= =2E - then after the standard "make buildworld|installworld|buildkernel|instal= lkernel" in /usr/src, i created the pkgbase packages with the command "make= packages"=2E =C2=A0 the files are placed in "/usr/repo/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest" where l= atest is a symlink to the, well latest build=2E =C2=A0 drwxr-xr-x =C2=A02 root =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0805 14 Apr=2E 14:59 12=2E= 0=2Es20190414123806/ =C2=A0 drwxr-xr-x =C2=A02 root =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0805 21 Apr=2E 09:27 12=2E= 0=2Es20190419155807/ =C2=A0 drwxr-xr-x =C2=A02 root =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0805 22 Apr=2E 13:53 12=2E= 0=2Es20190422094219/ =C2=A0 drwxr-xr-x =C2=A02 root =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0805 27 Apr=2E 14:12 12=2E= 0=2Es20190427084356/ =C2=A0 lrwxr-xr-x =C2=A01 root =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0 20 27 Apr=2E 11:04 lates= t@ -> 12=2E0=2Es20190427084356 =C2=A0=C2=A0 - this repo is published via the file "/usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD-ba= se=2Econf"which has this content: root@betablock:~ # cat "/usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD-base=2Econf" # FreeBSD base system repository FreeBSD-base: { =C2=A0 url: "file:///usr/repo/${ABI}/latest", =C2=A0 mirror_type: "none", =C2=A0 enabled: yes } =C2=A0 now to the jail stuff: - this command installs the FreeBSD-runtime and the 72 neccesary dependenc= ies in the jails root directory /jails/test03: root@betablock:~ # pkg --rootdir /jails/test03 -o 'ASSUME_ALWAYS_YES=3Dtru= e' install -r FreeBSD-base FreeBSD-runtime =C2=A0 - the newly created jail "test03" (an entry in /etc/jail=2Econf already ex= ists) is started with the command: root@betablock:~ # jail -vc test03 =C2=A0 sadly the jail wont start, it exits with this message: =2E=2E=2E test03: created test03: run command in jail: /bin/sh /etc/rc jail: test03: getpwnam: No such file or directory jail: test03: /bin/sh /etc/rc: failed test03: removed =2E=2E=2E =C2=A0 This happens, because there are no user-database files (like master=2Epass= wd, pwd=2Edb, spwd=2Edb) and no group files in the jails /etc/ directory=2E= hmmm=2E=2E=2E I saw in the pkg install output of the FreeBSD-runtime =C2=A0pkg this mess= age: =2E=2E=2E [2/72] Extracting FreeBSD-runtime-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806: 100% pwd_mkdb: /jails/test03/etc/master=2Epasswd: No such file or directory =2E=2E=2E so pkg tries to run the pwd_mkdb as defined in the runtime=2Eucl file, or = embedded in the pkg file, it is viewable with this command: root@betablock:~ # pkg info --raw --file /usr/repo/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest= /FreeBSD-runtime-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806=2Etxz =2E=2E=2E scripts: { =C2=A0 =C2=A0 post-install: "cap_mkdb -l ${PKG_ROOTDIR}/etc/login=2Econf\n= \tpwd_mkdb -i -p -d =C2=A0${PKG_ROOTDIR}/etc ${PKG_ROOTDIR}/etc/master=2Epa= sswd\n\tservices_mkdb -l -q -o ${PKG_ROOTDIR}/var/db/services=2Edb ${PKG_RO= OTDIR}/etc/services\n\tchmod 1777 ${PKG_ROOTDIR}/tmp" } =2E=2E=2E - so for a quick fix, i copied the "missing" files (master=2Epasswd, pwd= =2Edb, spwd=2Edb, group) from a FreeBSD base=2Etxz package to my jails etc = directory and tried to start the jail again=2E Read below for a "better" so= lution=2E Now the jail starts: root@betablock:~ # jls =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JID =C2=A0IP Address =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hostname =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pa= th =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=2E=2E=2E =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05 =C2=A0192=2E168=2E0=2E113 =C2=A0 test03=2Elocal =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/jails/test03 =C2=A0 i can "enter" it with this command: root@betablock:~ # jexec -l test03 =C2=A0=C2=A0 now to some more experiments with the jail which results in some questions= (also, see below) =C2=A0 - trying to ping something: root@test03:~ # ping google=2Ecom ld-elf=2Eso=2E1: Shared object "libcap_dns=2Eso=2E1" not found, required b= y "ping" =C2=A0 the required library libcap_dns=2Eso=2E1 is in the file FreeBSD-libcasper-= 12=2E0=2Es20190414123806=2Etxz, so lets install it: Outside of the jail: root@betablock:~ # pkg --rootdir /jails/test03 -o 'ASSUME_ALWAYS_YES=3Dtru= e' install -r FreeBSD-base FreeBSD-libcasper =C2=A0 and inside the jail: root@test03:~ # ping google=2Ecom PING google=2Ecom (216=2E58=2E213=2E206): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 216=2E58=2E213=2E206: icmp_seq=3D0 ttl=3D52 time=3D23=2E398 = ms 64 bytes from 216=2E58=2E213=2E206: icmp_seq=3D1 ttl=3D52 time=3D23=2E975 = ms 64 bytes from 216=2E58=2E213=2E206: icmp_seq=3D2 ttl=3D52 time=3D23=2E252 = ms =2E=2E=2E success! =C2=A0 The size of this freshly installed jail: du -h -d 1 /jails/ =2E=2E=2E 90M =C2=A0 =C2=A0/jails/test03 =C2=A0 - now lets install some packages from outside of the jail: root@betablock:~ # pkg --rootdir /jails/test03 install nginx-full Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue=2E=2E=2E pkg: Repository FreeBSD load error: access repo file(/jails/test03/var/db/= pkg/repo-FreeBSD=2Esqlite) failed: No such file or directory Fetching meta=2Etxz: 100% =C2=A0 =C2=A0944 B =C2=A0 0=2E9kB/s =C2=A0 =C2= =A000:01 Fetching packagesite=2Etxz: 100% =C2=A0 =C2=A06 MiB =C2=A0 2=2E2MB/s =C2= =A0 =C2=A000:03 Processing entries: 100% FreeBSD repository update completed=2E 31883 packages processed=2E Updating Synth repository catalogue=2E=2E=2E Synth repository is up to date=2E Updating FreeBSD-base repository catalogue=2E=2E=2E FreeBSD-base repository is up to date=2E All repositories are up to date=2E The following 146 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): New packages to be INSTALLED: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 nginx-full: 1=2E16=2E0_2,2 [FreeBSD] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 apache24: 2=2E4=2E39 [FreeBSD] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 libnghttp2: 1=2E38=2E0 [FreeBSD] =2E=2E=2E =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 libdrizzle: 0=2E8_6 [FreeBSD] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 brotli: 1=2E0=2E7_1,1 [FreeBSD] Number of packages to be installed: 146 The process will require 953 MiB more space=2E 232 MiB to be downloaded=2E =2E=2E=2E =C2=A0 Funfact -=C2=A0the jailsize after this installation: 1,0G =C2=A0 =C2=A0/jails/test03 =C2=A0 - lets enable the nginx service root@betablock:~ # sysrc -R /jails/test03 nginx_enable=3DYES nginx_enable: =C2=A0-> YES =C2=A0 - and start it (after a jail restart, without it nginx does not find its l= ibraries, installed above) root@test03:~ # service nginx start Performing sanity check on nginx configuration: ld-elf=2Eso=2E1: Shared object "libexecinfo=2Eso=2E1" not found, required = by "libprofiler=2Eso=2E0" =C2=A0 - lets install this missing library with the command=C2=A0 root@betablock:~ # pkg --rootdir /jails/test03 -o 'ASSUME_ALWAYS_YES=3Dtru= e' install -r FreeBSD-base FreeBSD-libexecinfo =C2=A0 - and lets also install vi: root@betablock:~ # pkg --rootdir /jails/test03 -o 'ASSUME_ALWAYS_YES=3Dtru= e' install -r FreeBSD-base FreeBSD-vi =C2=A0 - so lets try again (after creating the missing config files nginx=2Econf = and mime=2Etypes): root@betablock:~ # jexec -l test03 service nginx start Starting nginx=2E nginx: [emerg] gethostbyname() failed in /usr/local/etc/nginx/nginx=2Econf= :122 =C2=A0 - and the check: root@betablock:~ # jexec -l test03 service nginx status nginx is running as pid 41359=2E =C2=A0 (Browser access works too=2E=2E=2E) =C2=A0 - Now Lets work with packages within the jail: root@test03:~ # pkg update The package management tool is not yet installed on your system=2E Do you want to fetch and install it now? [y/N]: y Bootstrapping pkg from pkg+http://pkg=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg/FreeBSD:12:amd64/lat= est, please wait=2E=2E=2E pkg: Error loading revoked certificates =C2=A0 - Hm, this is because the directory "/usr/share/keys/pkg/revoked/" is miss= ing, lets create it: root@test03:~ # mkdir /usr/share/keys/pkg/revoked/ =C2=A0 - and now: root@test03:~ # pkg update The package management tool is not yet installed on your system=2E Do you want to fetch and install it now? [y/N]: y Bootstrapping pkg from pkg+http://pkg=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg/FreeBSD:12:amd64/lat= est[http://pkg=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest], please wait=2E=2E= =2E Verifying signature with trusted certificate pkg=2Efreebsd=2Eorg=2E2013102= 301=2E=2E=2E done [test03=2Elocal] Installing pkg-1=2E10=2E5_5=2E=2E=2E [test03=2Elocal] Extracting pkg-1=2E10=2E5_5: 100% Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue=2E=2E=2E FreeBSD repository is up to date=2E All repositories are up to date=2E root@test03:~ # pkg info FreeBSD-casper-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806 casper package FreeBSD-clibs-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806 Core C Libraries FreeBSD-jail-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806 Jail Utilities FreeBSD-lib-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806 lib package FreeBSD-lib80211-12=2E0=2Es20190414123806 lib80211 package =2E=2E=2E x265-3=2E0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 H=2E265/High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) format xorg-fonts-truetype-7=2E7_1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0X=2EOrg TrueType fonts xorgproto-2018=2E4 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xorg p= rotocol headers xvid-1=2E3=2E5,1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Opensource MPEG-4 codec, based on OpenDivx yajl-2=2E1=2E0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Portable JSON parsing and serialization library in ANSI C Btw=2E The missing "revoked" directory problem shoud be fixed with https:/= /reviews=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/D20056[https://reviews=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/D20056] --- So this is a basic jail installation with pkgbase, now to some further exp= eriments and resulting questions: =C2=A0 - i looked into why the userdatabase was missing in the newly created jail= =2E Well, it is, because the files are not included in the default Freebsd-= runtime package=2E =C2=A0 To check if it would work, i built my own Freebsd-runtime package w= ith these files added=2E to do this, i copied the runtime=2Eplist file from= the $WSTAGEDIR and modified it=2E =C2=A0 - first i removed a lot of duplicated directory entries like =C2=A0 @dir(root,wheel,0755,) /boot =C2=A0 @dir(root,wheel,0755,) /boot =C2=A0 @dir(root,wheel,0755,) /boot =C2=A0 @dir(root,wheel,0755,) /boot =C2=A0 =2E=2E=2E (and many more) =C2=A0 - then i added the "missing" files and directory =C2=A0 @config(root,wheel,0600,) /etc/master=2Epasswd =C2=A0 @config(root,wheel,0644,) /etc/group =C2=A0 @dir(root,wheel,0755,) /usr/share/keys/pkg/revoked =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - after that i rebuild the Freebsd-runtime package with these chang= es (found in /usr/src/Makefile=2Einc1): =C2=A0 root@betablock:~ # pkg -o ABI_FILE=3D/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64=2Eamd64= /worldstage/usr/bin/uname -o ALLOW_BASE_SHLIBS=3Dyes create -M /usr/obj/usr= /src/amd64=2Eamd64/worldstage/runtime=2Eucl -p /root/pkgs/runtime=2Eplist -= r /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64=2Eamd64/worldstage --output-dir /usr/repo/FreeBSD:= 12:amd64/latest =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and rebuilding the repo metadata with: =C2=A0 root@betablock:~ # pkg repo /usr/repo/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest =C2=A0 a jail created with this Freebsd-runtime starts directly, without t= he steps mentioned above=2E =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 My Question: Is the ommission of these files intentional?=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - one last experiment:=C2=A0i deleted the manpages, the examples, a= nd the /boot directory (i guessed a jail has no need for it), the jail buil= d from this file is 75M, the installation of packages like nginx=C2=A0works= like in the original file=2E =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - should the FreeBSD-libcasper package be installed as a dependency= of the FreeBSD-casper package? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - i did not observe more missing libraries like libcasper above, bu= t depending on the tasks that are=C2=A0executed or packages that are instal= led, there might be more that are missing=2E =C2=A0 So that was my pkgbase-jail experiment, it was fun and i learned some thin= gs about pkgbase=2E Any comments, tips, tricks and (mild) critique are welc= ome=2E =C2=A0 Greetings =C2=A0 Martin =C2=A0 From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 12:56:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424601590593 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CAB06F249 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:56:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy@freebsd.org) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id LSIthqo3BGusjLSIvhonmd; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:56:14 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=fOdHIqSe c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=oexKYjalfGEA:10 a=cAe2BUNkAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=sNKlHJBAFK4ZAaVlVyoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Ggd1tVC6cxfQud7OqMxb:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D7171B; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 05:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x3UCuAZh006798; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 05:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@freebsd.org) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x3UCu9TJ006795; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 05:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@freebsd.org) Message-Id: <201904301256.x3UCu9TJ006795@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Franco Fichtner cc: Cy Schubert , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: Message from Franco Fichtner of "Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:32:29 +0200." <7B9F9F37-9DCB-4B9D-BEF1-8C3092331DD0@opnsense.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 05:56:09 -0700 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNGNjsUPc2VO+vLwRdZoWIPSRtALZNspbNFQe0CmJ/b4wTZfr5eleisNBs0XBnRXrYAvOUMaEq7P4f+570cboitSKzJnnVIyr1sPoyxG8Wi1nvV/gahB ROzbZjvOUg49AhVC+N6rsbwX52bBbSpEbQptMms6T1RgKREYnwHfiV5uSwv5v7oyLXjbAu1IH+PEfTFoiohP7UDjdZstieRbVHc= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 8CAB06F249 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.985,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:56:18 -0000 In message <7B9F9F37-9DCB-4B9D-BEF1-8C3092331DD0@opnsense.org>, Franco Fichtner writes: > > > > On 30. Apr 2019, at 2:25 AM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > As for updating, freebsd-update is mostly there to accomplish your requirem > ent without pkgbase. Which begs the question, if we're simply replacing free > bsd-update and it does most of what we want why the extra effort? Unless we w > ant to solve more than just this problem? Which BTW I think we do. > > There's hbsd-update, pfSense-upgrade and opnsense-update precisely > because pkgbase was pulled ever since it's first ETA in 11.0 and > the subsequent non-delivery. freebsd-update is not the answer. > > Speaking for opnsense-update[1] specifically it's a shell script > with a bit of bloat for handling package updates as normal and > otherwise use base.txz and kernel.txz and arbitrary signatures > in pkg (built upon the idea of pkg.txz.sig) to verify their signature > directly linked to the fingerprints of the pkg repo used -- all well > under 1000 LOC counting whitespaces for readability and battle- > proven since 2015. > > My point is simply this: > > The sole focus on "the" pkgbase that will solve all issues and the > unwillingness to cooperate on "pkgbase" at the same time has made the > situation much much worse than it should have been for FreeBSD users > and blocked the road for other types of improvements in the update > area for a number of years now. The purpose of pkgbase is to bring us into the 20th century. > > It's time to step up > Ahh. I've been told. I have plenty of FreeBSD projects on the go. Yet another project will mean a more thinly spread out me and nothing will get done. I've already stepped up to the plate -- on many fronts. > instead of further dividing the topic so I > want to thank Kris for his effort very much. P.S. It doesn't help attacking someone already contributing to FreeBSD. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 13:39:33 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2F21591702 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:39:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C3F471687 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:39:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com with SMTP id r139so5865089ywe.12 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:39:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Fd7GJnL18mhDJpCFIHHkxJ2a/Vstdaj/bDHrSbsQGBw=; b=veLJ27w8Oeby3ocGygVlU3Bbdy+x0S184hpChnqD4fsxgyJHt2FRIiJ7PqIkRUbf+k rkaUXH8889l9BIxNF+5fonnBnuovD+bBFT6Ax1zu9kdJ2uV+oRCIYnnlUUASPO2WJswC RRh5/Ys1DC7eGB10/ANePfeMgEDWLJmCuBOCPppBLHmTu/Q1KytrM+5snGd1trY0D/VR RFM2QESakDSyyoqQeYfd+6AwdetOpCggvKVpb2GOylrkuIRREOCjKIcGhhxe8qiqo7CR FSGc1RIS1lF2DIyi34XNg1fNp0Tkv07OZGiOgGOShzQHC4TLUfGkC36HbYi0wseeEfiM RnFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Fd7GJnL18mhDJpCFIHHkxJ2a/Vstdaj/bDHrSbsQGBw=; b=ALzr/qZm4OSO+WIdcOcjQJ1N147T2clppt1ipxQQ1Tm00Lz1qrsSQB491xraCt2j/S Lle9TonzDRly7CA0EzPf15o+GWePvHG4Fyq4DMfZcQZi9RT4tC289qgHrJFgyhEdEgPj pxUHG4nk1VDAdPJjO2WDP04mAGuZjjFAk2WxIhLm9RQnSso+lD3r1yAlbtv5znOwV/d4 BDwooUT4QDSP4Q0Ut1fU4ayFglryT8/Xg3sokJh30+dFQClUolecyvUf/2rKLST4hk1R D2mtYY04akRa1dHkvghXrnBE9N0yn9lTQmOXjiI/NN5zkSlq9H34l3Ty8ORi3vJVJsGB QiNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUfPhCxF5w3mjbgYpwuMPRa8DHdZ2p1ww3yoAEuEBEFja/omHba L0vtJK2T4bCC53/8755nOco64JHZPFQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy0WNA/VHGxUe058Wf56udymTg2H0vAm5e4QaDd8uND6QqQ59gHEVCcRcth2k61+jNbCb5ZGw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:4b50:: with SMTP id y77mr47442292ywa.484.1556631571159; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KrisYogaC930 ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j189sm1026797ywd.107.2019.04.30.06.39.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:39:30 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'Rodney W. Grimes'" , "'Cy Schubert'" Cc: References: <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> <201904300241.x3U2femm075775@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201904300241.x3U2femm075775@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:39:29 -0400 Message-ID: <026801d4ff5a$23485730$69d90590$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQByInlXN6F3gTi8FDfGbRAGVFs5IKkabI0Q Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 5C3F471687 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=veLJ27w8; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.91)[ip: (-9.09), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.17), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:39:33 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > What seems to be confusing here is that TrueOS/FreeNAS's "package base" > and the work that has been on going IN the FreeBSD base system for 2+ (3?) > years are 2 different things with different goal sets and this CFT has very > much muddied that water as to what is what. > > Is there an advocation by iXsystems and TrueOS to replace what is in the > base system now with this new Go implementation in ports? > > Are they orthagonal? If so can we please rename one? > > > -- > Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org Seriously Rod, this is just embarrassing now. Obviously you completely uninformed on the work being presented, I suggest you bother to take 5-10 minutes and try it for yourself. Feel free to let me know if you find any "Go" code in the CFT. (Spoilers: There's none). It's a less intrusive way of doing pkg base that only has a small patch to poudriere (Shell) and then some port Makefiles (or are those suspect now as well?) Seriously, I'm not sure what has set you off recently, but you're doing a disservice to yourself and to the community with these kind of irrational and ignorant arguments. -- Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 14:17:46 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465B61592E96 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06F5573473 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:17:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com with SMTP id q11so6004535ywb.0 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:17:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=q/bNcvxm3EBtJ4W9GXovwrw15kSP4ZLCv54Tx1EbskI=; b=tfcDwyXGRJiez4Ri1acoMYe1EdHyEb3XR3cwvLgW5yaeTIhdZUG9JtPnVLBQBXfSbj ZNrCj2qS8D/2cmeYatyEefS2gh/mOix6MOdE6Cf7NdhvzSQUVC18UA4RPCAg301+CdW0 hDnxDFtiIdmYQmrE16ficvdru03b5PDFHZzv6vG62wrgzLZVuhC3oAycoqhJ2/uUJDM4 eOECgK+cvqFXl4bOh3nll702szVlMPpOJztEiGEAbyoA6yshzYqfHupXLcq0Jphf1Gad h9qYRJ6lt+eqBTLu6D0Zss8YDDHJRqvNxifjJQSiMFhQV1TnL/RlD+Swt01TCLuCY07g 0loQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=q/bNcvxm3EBtJ4W9GXovwrw15kSP4ZLCv54Tx1EbskI=; b=AOHPCVjS0ah/MljPD4mz0mCZ2k3k4LYb7j23C5u2gZ9WxMpJmfie02hk+pd9cjSCaO Hdi9f04sYv5aeGxY82iMLpm0STaUXS5Tii8T5TgWBELzKTD9ycQbgw8S1zr0VYP6dTgC xDtkdvQfjoya5InlusadY9WPd18n0e86T6QYS1hqdw7tIh0L3HFK1EcqW2RzQT0aQdfb 26b7YsEdC+sHHQtgynF2AgOk1Xa/3AIQLdGgSAililXGwNUHGavf1gDGlUcex7MlluBn PNMoqXI08TJPz9T7AyK7HCSMQGG/ISMKzeYfR9WxGGR4D4iaxdl5NCjD5U83QwbfLumB KKQA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXapGnxYz60DMy89XRYVi/h0qUQ01oDe6gZxMNqduWZmuf3piKZ 601vO0qUM2WhNKavWN+YYHu0kQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzg8a5M7F/koK7aqNlLbsM9IStb8tD7bjsifj8YwNoQn7ezdq4q19CAbwzURYW5hf+7ZFVzUg== X-Received: by 2002:a25:bec4:: with SMTP id k4mr10740291ybm.367.1556633864041; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KrisYogaC930 ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x12sm14454931ywj.76.2019.04.30.07.17.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:17:43 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'David Chisnall'" , "'Joe Maloney'" , "'Cy Schubert'" Cc: "'Rodney W. Grimes'" , =?utf-8?Q?'Goran_Meki=C4=87'?= , , "'Emmanuel Vadot'" References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:17:42 -0400 Message-ID: <040b01d4ff5f$79db2cd0$6d918670$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJwntuDUvMXv+H62eTQaW+A+ndXwwITa+GXAVm475ClAhTYAA== Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 06F5573473 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=tfcDwyXG; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ixsystems.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kris@ixsystems.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kris@ixsystems.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.91 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.92)[ip: (-9.15), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.17), asn: 15169(-2.24), country: US(-0.06)]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ixsystems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ALT3.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ixsystems.com,none]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.978,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:17:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Chisnall > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 4:23 AM > To: Joe Maloney ; Cy Schubert > > Cc: Rodney W. Grimes ; Kris Moore > ; FreeBSD Stable ; > freebsd-ports@freebsd.org; Goran Meki=C4=87 ; = freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org; FreeBSD Current ; > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; Emmanuel Vadot > > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >=20 > On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > > With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual = components > such as sendmail with a port option. That does entirely solve the = problem of > being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a rebuild of = the > userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could solve that problem > assuming flavors could extend beyond python. >=20 > This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create = a > custom base image. Great. But how do I express dependencies in ports = on a > specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specific = base > package, but how does this work in your model? For example, if I have = a > package that depends on a library that is an optional part of the base = system, > how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to install it, or = install a > userland pkg that includes that library in place of my existing = version as part > of the install process? >=20 > More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a = completely > empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the = maintainer of > the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of the base = system > that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? >=20 > One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of = use case, > easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single = service. With a > monolithic base package set, you're going to need some mechanism other > than packages to express the specific base subset package that you = need and > I think that you need to justify why this mechanism is better than = using small > individual packages. >=20 > David Yes, this is the next logical step of this package base effort. We'd = like to build out the port framework to do proper flavors of some of the = most common base configurations. We did this last week to allow having = both Debug/NonDebug kernels available via pkg, next step would be to = extend that to the base system itself, so you could have a variety of = configs represented as flavors, including minimal. The way we'll be able to interject depends on ports is going to be = through our usage of "userland" as a meta-package. That meta-package = depends on userland-base (The traditional FreeBSD world contents). = However it currently has options to depend on sysutils/zol, pairing that = with a userland-base that is compiled without ZFS. Fleshing that out = should be fairly straight forward, but we wanted to get some hands-on = testing and feedback on the current work before going down that route.=20 Ideally we extend some of the flavors support that already exists in = Ports for Python 2/3 with base as well and it avoids us having to = brute-force it with tons of dummy ports with different flag = combinations. This would give you the ability to 'pkg install = userland-minimal' or whatever name, and more importantly your ports = could have depends on those particular flavors as well. I.E. some port = needs SSL in base, or firewall, etc, etc.=20 --=20 Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 17:29:22 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EA915989B8 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 17:29:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (khavrinen.csail.mit.edu [IPv6:2603:400a:0:7ec::801e:1c14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "khavrinen.csail.mit.edu", Issuer "Client CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 609BE84A2F for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 17:29:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x3UHTGxp004649 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL CN=khavrinen.csail.mit.edu issuer=Client+20CA); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:29:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.csail.mit.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x3UHTGSP004648; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:29:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23752.34284.56207.860696@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:29:16 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman To: Cy Schubert Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.1 (amd64-portbld-freebsd11.2) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (khavrinen.csail.mit.edu [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:29:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 609BE84A2F X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=csail.mit.edu; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu designates 2603:400a:0:7ec::801e:1c14 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.19)[0.189,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: khavrinen.csail.mit.edu]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[csail.mit.edu,none]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[wollman@csail.mit.edu,wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[wollman@csail.mit.edu, wollman@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 17:29:22 -0000 < said: > An anaconda-like installer for freebsd could do that. Also a perfect job for cfengine or ansible. Deploy and use a playbook to enforce policy. "make delete-old" is inherently interactive. ("yes | make delete-old" will delete configuration files that shouldn't be deleted.) Likewise etcupdate. > You don't need to break up base into packages (not arguing against > packaging) to gain the benefits of configuration management. Huh? We have plenty of configuration management already. What I need is an automated process for installing updates that doesn't require a huge pile more sui-generis infrastructure. > As for updating, freebsd-update is mostly there to accomplish your > requirement without pkgbase. Except that it requires a huge pile of infrastructure to build and distribute updates. I'd rather have only one, thanks. > Which begs the question, if we're simply replacing freebsd-update > and it does most of what we want why the extra effort? Anyone who isn't using a completely stock make.conf/src.conf is already replacing freebsd-update, and it would be much *less* effort to have only one mechanism to distribute software rather than two. I'd like to have a better installation process, too, because that would make it much easier to redeploy servers. But most of our servers are file servers with unique user data so "redeploy" is not a relevant operation much of the time. -GAWollman From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 18:46:13 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8F7159AB14 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:46:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2b.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4EAC881EB for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@ixsystems.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2b.google.com with SMTP id w196so6671526ywd.10 for ; 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Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KrisYogaC930 ([12.189.233.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f124sm10007923ywe.34.2019.04.30.11.46.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'Garrett Wollman'" , "'Cy Schubert'" Cc: References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> <23752.34284.56207.860696@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <23752.34284.56207.860696@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:46:09 -0400 Message-ID: <081a01d4ff84$fa4f3d50$eeedb7f0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHEqfooBbgouy58uTW2ZKbqOz4WGwM63utiAnCe24MBjENrowNC4uCKAiLkTw6mEMeYwA== Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B4EAC881EB X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:46:13 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org pkgbase@freebsd.org> On Behalf Of Garrett Wollman > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 1:29 PM > To: Cy Schubert > Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >=20 > > Which begs the question, if we're simply replacing freebsd-update = and > > it does most of what we want why the extra effort? >=20 > Anyone who isn't using a completely stock make.conf/src.conf is = already > replacing freebsd-update, and it would be much *less* effort to have = only > one mechanism to distribute software rather than two. >=20 > I'd like to have a better installation process, too, because that = would make it > much easier to redeploy servers. But most of our servers are file = servers > with unique user data so "redeploy" is not a relevant operation much = of the > time. >=20 > -GAWollman >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-pkgbase > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-pkgbase- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" This was a big motivator for us to merge base pkgs into poudriere. In my = career I've written 4 build systems that all do some variation of = buildworld/kernel + poudriere + create ISO + create updates. I'm sure = plenty of other FreeBSD consumers have done the same, and frankly its = getting old. At least now I'm down to poudriere + create ISO only.=20 And my sympathies to anybody still having to use freebsd-update as part = of their custom updating process =F0=9F=98=89 --=20 Kris Moore Vice President of Engineering iXsystems, Inc Ph: (408) 943-4100 Ph: (408) 943-4101 The Groundbreaking TrueNAS M-Series - Enterprise Storage & Servers Driven By Open Source From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Tue Apr 30 22:13:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7A8159FF9D; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=7/jM=TA=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11DA96A723; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:13:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=7/jM=TA=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B397E28417; Wed, 1 May 2019 00:03:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from illbsd.quip.test (ip-62-24-92-232.net.upcbroadband.cz [62.24.92.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 51D3828411; Wed, 1 May 2019 00:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: David Chisnall Cc: Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Message-ID: <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz> Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 00:03:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/52.0 SeaMonkey/2.49.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 11DA96A723 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.46 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.88)[0.883,0]; IP_SCORE(0.94)[ip: (0.49), ipnet: 94.124.104.0/21(0.25), asn: 42000(3.88), country: CZ(0.08)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[quip.cz]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.952,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: elsa.codelab.cz]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.105.124.94.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,SRS0=7/jM=TA=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,SRS0=7/jM=TA=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:13:31 -0000 David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: > On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: >> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components >> such as sendmail with a port option.  That does entirely solve the >> problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a >> rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could >> solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. > > This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create a > custom base image.  Great.  But how do I express dependencies in ports > on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specific > base package, but how does this work in your model?  For example, if I > have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of the > base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to install > it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of my > existing version as part of the install process? > > More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a > completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the > maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of > the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? > > One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of use > case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single > service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need some > mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset > package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this > mechanism is better than using small individual packages. Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports tree? Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Wed May 1 03:56:46 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04312158331C; Wed, 1 May 2019 03:56:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E73A974C1C; Wed, 1 May 2019 03:56:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id LgMEhBJ2TldkPLgMFhnFVa; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:56:36 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Ko4zJleN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=oexKYjalfGEA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=q2XNxBO46EK3obBdrt4A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BF6514E; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x413uX67074032; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x413uUnV068470; Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:56:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201905010356.x413uUnV068470@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> cc: David Chisnall , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: Message from Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> of "Wed, 01 May 2019 00:03:44 +0200." <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:56:30 -0700 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfN/xmWRaWQf4f3J4LUJQu3pZlq2R+heRrUgbSIStI3jW7zX/5fMm4b0wrONS30PxYTM3L4AEceAbaUlH0j4Ssk2hgu0ilk7uSIb2ZQm3B34wLKJrGhxU HwWqFVGWz0FbohtGB8vZe+ZhlwMlOl+nV4bTEhDv1vj7LNpbO3NZmQOnMb1uHsrEYnimp8U3o5Ldv1Btob7Oz5spUCDh01syPNS8efzuut3lZbEWglh78Iul sPyzs8ESB8rbpCG1Etz3uwemvekBrPSWvbdp4F0pPhs+i985u/KunSKaEPyPP+EnNKeIq6a2IowFuvaH5ee+dvx8eKz/lEv74EXMf7LyIodLisYvO6SVjh3b 05bnRfDMx0Uroy8xz142FesMv0fY2sueoDnS5Afs/XbfU78s8tk0bOhtge4PbZSjTvqk5TyKv8onRizm9SpnzbpATzmeHLo6AdBYkyy7AWk5lCjRClOg0mbc 1/pTZMJvQHzSrCWq X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E73A974C1C X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.63 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.937,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-2.49)[ip: (-6.68), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.21), asn: 6327(-2.46), country: CA(-0.09)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 03:56:46 -0000 In message <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz>, Miroslav Lachman wri tes: > David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: > > On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > >> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components > >> such as sendmail with a port option.  That does entirely solve the > >> problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a > >> rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could > >> solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. > > > > This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create a > > custom base image.  Great.  But how do I express dependencies in ports > > on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specific > > base package, but how does this work in your model?  For example, if I > > have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of the > > base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to install > > it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of my > > existing version as part of the install process? > > > > More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a > > completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the > > maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of > > the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? > > > > One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of use > > case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single > > service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need some > > mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset > > package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this > > mechanism is better than using small individual packages. > > Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the > dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports tree? No more than it is today. Remember, people have been doing this sort of thing for decades. If the folks at Red Hat, Oracle (formerly Sun), and IBM can do it, I'm sure we can too. The dependency lists will be longer. We may require dependency lists that allow the choice of one of many prereqs or coreqs. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Wed May 1 08:31:47 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FE4159C6F5; Wed, 1 May 2019 08:31:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=6TW8=TB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B5F76B63C; Wed, 1 May 2019 08:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=6TW8=TB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655DD28423; Wed, 1 May 2019 10:31:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from illbsd.quip.test (ip-62-24-92-232.net.upcbroadband.cz [62.24.92.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C08428422; Wed, 1 May 2019 10:31:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Cy Schubert Cc: FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, David Chisnall , FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: <201905010356.x413uUnV068470@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Message-ID: <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 10:31:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/52.0 SeaMonkey/2.49.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201905010356.x413uUnV068470@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 1B5F76B63C X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.98)[0.983,0]; IP_SCORE(0.94)[ip: (0.49), ipnet: 94.124.104.0/21(0.24), asn: 42000(3.88), country: CZ(0.08)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[quip.cz]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.996,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: elsa.codelab.cz]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.105.124.94.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,SRS0=6TW8=TB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,SRS0=6TW8=TB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 08:31:47 -0000 Cy Schubert wrote on 2019/05/01 05:56: > In message <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz>, Miroslav > Lachman wri > tes: >> David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: >>> On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: >>>> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components >>>> such as sendmail with a port option.  That does entirely solve the >>>> problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a >>>> rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could >>>> solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. >>> >>> This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create a >>> custom base image.  Great.  But how do I express dependencies in ports >>> on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specific >>> base package, but how does this work in your model?  For example, if I >>> have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of the >>> base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to install >>> it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of my >>> existing version as part of the install process? >>> >>> More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a >>> completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the >>> maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of >>> the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? >>> >>> One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of use >>> case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single >>> service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need some >>> mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset >>> package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this >>> mechanism is better than using small individual packages. >> >> Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the >> dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports tree? > > No more than it is today. Remember, people have been doing this sort of > thing for decades. If the folks at Red Hat, Oracle (formerly Sun), and > IBM can do it, I'm sure we can too. The dependency lists will be > longer. We may require dependency lists that allow the choice of one of > many prereqs or coreqs. They are experts and they are paid for their work. I am not. I am maintaining a few packages and the reality is I don't know what they need in base. Till these days I don't care about this kind of dependency. I am not system developer or programmer and I think there are more than just me who see this as a kind of problem. So in this case, pkg base gives me nothing but more work on those packages. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Wed May 1 10:41:56 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBF91591013; Wed, 1 May 2019 10:41:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theravensnest.org [46.226.110.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "theravensnest.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8146702FE; Wed, 1 May 2019 10:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [10.164.186.150] ([167.220.197.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x41Aeksu029858 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 1 May 2019 10:40:47 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail: Host [167.220.197.150] claimed to be [10.164.186.150] Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Cy Schubert Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: <201905010356.x413uUnV068470@slippy.cwsent.com> <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> From: David Chisnall Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 11:41:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A8146702FE X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.96 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:46.226.108.0/22, country:FR]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 10:41:56 -0000 On 01/05/2019 09:31, Miroslav Lachman wrote: > They are experts and they are paid for their work. I am not. I am > maintaining a few packages and the reality is I don't know what they > need in base. Till these days I don't care about this kind of > dependency. I am not system developer or programmer and I think there > are more than just me who see this as a kind of problem. > So in this case, pkg base gives me nothing but more work on those packages. This is a UI problem that is largely addressed by sane defaults. For example: - Ports for libraries default to depending on libc and libm, with poudriere warning if you link to anything in /lib that you don't have a dependency for. - Ports for programs default to depending on a large subset of base (probably not things like vi, but probably including sh for anything that may want to call system()). I would a few oddball things will have other dependencies that will need explicit handling (for example, a GUI tool for network configuration may depend on ifconfig), but I'd expect you to spend a lot less time worrying about base system dependencies than you waste from the ports system's refusal to make plist generation automatic. David From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Wed May 1 11:32:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AA71593E44 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 11:32:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C239472424 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 11:32:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.86 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hLnSv-0001gP-BC; Wed, 01 May 2019 14:31:57 +0300 Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 14:31:57 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: kris@ixsystems.com Cc: 'Garrett Wollman' , 'Cy Schubert' , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-ID: <20190501113157.GI2161@zxy.spb.ru> References: <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <23751.25464.908633.101215@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> <8B10CAFD-88A1-4DAD-92C2-93F5DE4B3402@cschubert.com> <23752.34284.56207.860696@khavrinen.csail.mit.edu> <081a01d4ff84$fa4f3d50$eeedb7f0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <081a01d4ff84$fa4f3d50$eeedb7f0$@ixsystems.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C239472424 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.04 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.86)[0.864,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zxy.spb.ru]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.10)[0.105,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[zxy.spb.ru]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.18)[0.182,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5495, ipnet:195.70.192.0/19, country:RU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[country: RU(0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 11:32:18 -0000 On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 02:46:09PM -0400, kris@ixsystems.com wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org > pkgbase@freebsd.org> On Behalf Of Garrett Wollman > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 1:29 PM > > To: Cy Schubert > > Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base > > > > > Which begs the question, if we're simply replacing freebsd-update and > > > it does most of what we want why the extra effort? > > > > Anyone who isn't using a completely stock make.conf/src.conf is already > > replacing freebsd-update, and it would be much *less* effort to have only > > one mechanism to distribute software rather than two. > > > > I'd like to have a better installation process, too, because that would make it > > much easier to redeploy servers. But most of our servers are file servers > > with unique user data so "redeploy" is not a relevant operation much of the > > time. > > > > -GAWollman > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-pkgbase > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-pkgbase- > > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > This was a big motivator for us to merge base pkgs into poudriere. > In my career I've written 4 build systems that all do some variation > of buildworld/kernel + poudriere + create ISO + create updates. I'm > sure plenty of other FreeBSD consumers have done the same, and > frankly its getting old. At least now I'm down to poudriere + create > ISO only. svnlite export foreach patch patch -E -p0 -z '' sh release.sh release.conf tar -xf $R/R/ftp/base.txz --strip-components 5 -C tmp ./var/db/etcupdate/current/ tar -cf $R/R/ftp/etcupdate.tar -C tmp . and update find -x . -flags +schg | xargs chflags noschg fetch -qo - http://pkg/update12/doc.txz | tar xf - fetch -qo - http://pkg/update12/kernel.txz | tar xf - fetch -qo - http://pkg/update12/kernel-dbg.txz | tar xf - fetch -qo - http://pkg/update12/lib32.txz | tar xf - fetch -qo - http://pkg/update12/base.txz | tar xf - --exclude ./boot/device.hints ./COPYRIGHT boot dev media mnt proc tmp bin lib libexec rescue sbin usr var/yp/Makefile.dist > > And my sympathies to anybody still having to use freebsd-update as part of their custom updating process 😉 freebsd-update take x4 time and space to build, constantly broken, slow update on client and take too much space and files on client. And have fixed bindings for run on official freebsd-update cluster. I am don't use it anymore. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Wed May 1 23:21:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBC91580843 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 23:21:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ggm@algebras.org) Received: from mail-it1-x141.google.com (mail-it1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEF826AF70 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 23:21:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ggm@algebras.org) Received: by mail-it1-x141.google.com with SMTP id l10so272132iti.3 for ; Wed, 01 May 2019 16:21:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5WmwH5NkVUI2HIdbMNumu7MIyCRRYcmkr6a8TGMsRjs=; b=C4iGPZnrJqpvqi5rUDPOGh9fvmiuugSLG+2XOkDeO70DbvEwSI85UbStp6SOmvJr2g t/cjrwUVjMVLJeeZ3eeXev0h/4IBTGKaZgpSk8Fq273j+CYS+R/ksAVfJQeFvhoXlv4x bL0/bgkeCEooiVd2DVB3ecK+5Iij4r/45xrnhd0UlKQpMmRzWUKnCBRj7nV5DNrKQujA 5M3IYgQrifNgbs/eHCFwIIMbKie1SFfscrFShVK7CYWfgpjfqtOGZCWeP/aPN3NZD87A 65JN5E1WaI4KcrDXx8CtbL4uVgPtAexxetSq+0VqxpA9uXfErjAuAAQ5Qlh101nEEj0M ZV9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5WmwH5NkVUI2HIdbMNumu7MIyCRRYcmkr6a8TGMsRjs=; b=aUudBTzjVJuR8KQu8xcJOpwCYj3wqjs6eBMu8a1CstXPFcQzpxjCmCdvqgO5NGj9Bc Q13PNQtYpRDlve6NzV7kSVOAj21Zd2OvcMZUOLkldeSklqZmlOrbKKhT/R88vQQ27HZ5 FhBlkKWjAaCmaZ68lvw9N0fF3sj8GSr/b5po+5GafnwrfUH+srws6go28yWwKD6XSm4Z ptFB31ffMqCs/67yomWraa8m1IOJlsjWvJ7HS3YDpZ9sxqIG4g1qGLhWCwR2Jzl5v8qm C1iLanK3kIh3LJcySs7Vvndz/VSl3Xr01SZu0Vlgg3pFaWANPu8OTYW8gigHbMuzxVRR rj3w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXaopHNhbkMiv9xiyTJl5cEXNzkEUkAuNCxJi3qhk2Z3jJVPm+7 K9Ucn6hcTUGZE4labAyKiac1+/iXXnFZWAqQ6SCYyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwiBOkB8a9fekOEhV9VM6R4WRvjf65VvbBEdpZc6dh33OISvmJanCg5eCDzD1hP6K2+8xbvaSrKGdeHWNPqjbs= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c619:: with SMTP id i25mr245071jan.141.1556752905936; Wed, 01 May 2019 16:21:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201905010356.x413uUnV068470@slippy.cwsent.com> <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> From: George Michaelson Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:21:34 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: FreeBSD Stable Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: BEF826AF70 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=C4iGPZnr; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ggm@algebras.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ggm@algebras.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.30 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[algebras.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM,ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM,ASPMX4.GOOGLEMAIL.COM,ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM,ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM,ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM,ASPMX5.GOOGLEMAIL.COM]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.964,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.82)[ip: (1.37), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.19), asn: 15169(-2.25), country: US(-0.06)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 23:21:49 -0000 The current state of this looks logical: its the bare minimum to represent the .tgz which we recognized from install menu choices, which minimises any real SAT solver dependency load, because these are not cross-dependant in any strong sense. The goal surely would be to prove this works and test. Then, we can move to the state I think I want, and I presume by extension everyone else wants: Sets which are small enough they expose risk of cross dependency, but once a SAT solver reconciles them, you have ONLY the minimum needed to do your job. So a "tiny" FreeBSD could be back under 4MB (hypothetically) because it was /rescue and the kernel, and if you needed /usr/share you loaded a pkg. -G On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 7:33 PM Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: > > Cy Schubert wrote on 2019/05/01 05:56: > > In message <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz>, Miroslav > > Lachman wri > > tes: > >> David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: > >>> On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > >>>> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual componen= ts > >>>> such as sendmail with a port option.=C3=82 That does entirely solve= the > >>>> problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a > >>>> rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could > >>>> solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. > >>> > >>> This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to creat= e a > >>> custom base image.=C3=82 Great.=C3=82 But how do I express dependen= cies in ports > >>> on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a speci= fic > >>> base package, but how does this work in your model?=C3=82 For exampl= e, if I > >>> have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of = the > >>> base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to inst= all > >>> it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of = my > >>> existing version as part of the install process? > >>> > >>> More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a > >>> completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does t= he > >>> maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of > >>> the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? > >>> > >>> One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of u= se > >>> case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single > >>> service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need som= e > >>> mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset > >>> package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this > >>> mechanism is better than using small individual packages. > >> > >> Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the > >> dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports t= ree? > > > > No more than it is today. Remember, people have been doing this sort of > > thing for decades. If the folks at Red Hat, Oracle (formerly Sun), and > > IBM can do it, I'm sure we can too. The dependency lists will be > > longer. We may require dependency lists that allow the choice of one of > > many prereqs or coreqs. > > They are experts and they are paid for their work. I am not. I am > maintaining a few packages and the reality is I don't know what they > need in base. Till these days I don't care about this kind of > dependency. I am not system developer or programmer and I think there > are more than just me who see this as a kind of problem. > So in this case, pkg base gives me nothing but more work on those package= s. > > Miroslav Lachman > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Thu May 2 10:52:42 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770C115905CA; Thu, 2 May 2019 10:52:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from root@sfc.wide.ad.jp) Received: from mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp (mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org 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ESMTPSA id 51D3828411; Wed, 1 May 2019 00:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: David Chisnall Cc: Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Message-ID: <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz> Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 00:03:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/52.0 SeaMonkey/2.49.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DATE_IN_PAST(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,root@sfc.wide.ad.jp]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2500, ipnet:203.178.128.0/17, country:JP]; IP_SCORE(-1.78)[ip: (-6.60), ipnet: 203.178.128.0/17(-1.45), asn: 2500(-0.80), country: JP(-0.06)]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[freebsd.org:s=dkim]; SPAM_FLAG(5.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.25)[-0.253,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[quip.cz]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.73)[0.729,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.37)[0.371,0]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 10:52:42 -0000 RGF2aWQgQ2hpc25hbGwgd3JvdGUgb24gMjAxOS8wNC8zMCAxMDoyMjoKPiBPbiAyOS8wNC8yMDE5 IDIxOjEyLCBKb2UgTWFsb25leSB3cm90ZToKPj4gV2l0aCBDRlQgdmVyc2lvbiB5b3UgY2hvc2Ug dG8gYnVpbGQsIGFuZCBwYWNrYWdlIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgY29tcG9uZW50cyAKPj4gc3VjaCBhcyBz ZW5kbWFpbCB3aXRoIGEgcG9ydCBvcHRpb24uwqAgVGhhdCBkb2VzIGVudGlyZWx5IHNvbHZlIHRo ZSAKPj4gcHJvYmxlbSBvZiBiZWluZyBhYmxlIHRvIHJlaW5zdGFsbCBzZW5kbWFpbCBhZnRlciB0 aGUgZmFjdCB3aXRob3V0IGEgCj4+IHJlYnVpbGQgb2YgdGhlIHVzZXJsYW5kIChiYXNlKSBwb3J0 IGJ1dCBwZXJoYXBzIGJhc2UgZmxhdm9ycyBjb3VsZCAKPj4gc29sdmUgdGhhdCBwcm9ibGVtIGFz c3VtaW5nIGZsYXZvcnMgY291bGQgZXh0ZW5kIGJleW9uZCBweXRob24uCj4gCj4gVGhpcyBzb3Vu ZHMgdmVyeSBtdWNoIGxpa2UgbG9jYWwgb3B0aW1pc2F0aW9uLiBJdCdzIG5vdyBlYXN5IHRvIGNy ZWF0ZSBhIAo+IGN1c3RvbSBiYXNlIGltYWdlLsKgIEdyZWF0LsKgIEJ1dCBob3cgZG8gSSBleHBy ZXNzIGRlcGVuZGVuY2llcyBpbiBwb3J0cyAKPiBvbiBhIHNwZWNpZmljIGJhc2UgY29uZmlndXJh 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YnNkLm9yZyIK From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Thu May 2 10:53:57 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9D215906E9; Thu, 2 May 2019 10:53:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from root@sfc.wide.ad.jp) Received: from mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp (mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82D5B882A6; Thu, 2 May 2019 10:53:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from root@sfc.wide.ad.jp) Received: by mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix, from userid 0) id B7B971BCCF; Thu, 2 May 2019 19:40:08 +0900 (JST) X-Original-To: micchie@sfc.wide.ad.jp Received: from ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp (ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:8803:203:178:142:150]) by mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7161212691 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 13:00:36 +0900 (JST) Received-SPF: None (ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp: no sender authenticity information available from domain of owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org) identity=pra; client-ip=8.8.178.116; receiver=ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp; envelope-from="owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org"; x-sender="owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: Pass (ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp: domain of owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org designates 8.8.178.116 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=8.8.178.116; receiver=ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp; envelope-from="owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org"; x-sender="owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible; x-record-type="v=spf1"; x-record-text="v=spf1 ip4:8.8.178.116 ip4:96.47.72.81 ip6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:2 ip6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:2 ~all" Received-SPF: None (ironport1.sfc.wide.ad.jp: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@mx2.freebsd.org) identity=helo; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 10:53:57 -0000 In message <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz>, Miroslav = Lachman wri tes: > David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: > > On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > >> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components = > >> such as sendmail with a port option.=C2=A0 That does entirely solve th= e = > >> problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a = > >> rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could = > >> solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. > > = > > This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create = a = > > custom base image.=C2=A0 Great.=C2=A0 But how do I express dependencies= in ports = > > on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specifi= c = > > base package, but how does this work in your model?=C2=A0 For example, = if I = > > have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of th= e = > > base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to instal= l = > > it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of my = > > existing version as part of the install process? > > = > > More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a = > > completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the = > > maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of = > > the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? > > = > > One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of use = > > case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single = > > service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need some = > > mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset = > > package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this = > > mechanism is better than using small individual packages. > > Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the = > dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports tree? No more than it is today. Remember, people have been doing this sort of = thing for decades. If the folks at Red Hat, Oracle (formerly Sun), and = IBM can do it, I'm sure we can too. The dependency lists will be = longer. We may require dependency lists that allow the choice of one of = many prereqs or coreqs. -- = Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Thu May 2 10:47:53 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12591590333; Thu, 2 May 2019 10:47:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from root@sfc.wide.ad.jp) Received: from mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp (mail1.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with 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08:22:10 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail: Host [167.220.197.150] claimed to be [10.164.186.150] Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: Joe Maloney , Cy Schubert Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Kris Moore , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=c4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, Emmanuel Vadot References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> From: David Chisnall Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:22:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> Content-Language: en-GB X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:18:36 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1556619726; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=3uPMqOLVHtYQgxrxynDls3RQ8GV3oY9kZDZ+kHumHuA=; b=g4gbI4tF+/541QaCNzdPW/8LRGuA+PoEp0ah9c1fu35Ve9czp4mOhHlEdhWziFbcMi5n0Y 2POyiFKnnVlYSaLCRrvMcnn+SLNvODlCpyPvkav6Vq5POiLnblaI3wAT64DTU/LiW26Flz l2Iu8DRmtrPLOGO0FyeQdMECGN76V1a1UcMHQLJSlru+mIOvlXUdVLlgSYm4LO2UJvTGng iGNkO677hHmmSOxXf/bu5D+27ip3n9SVpHPNX7f+5JkeuAhqtDbtffeQ+2VfJz6tQJDjZW LyZtGyR/z46AfT9BoE/5p9fMaYRSCvIDhN69D9k7VcKbhJKNx06xGuEchqQaLw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1556619726; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Kg+ptVck8q6po4TCQr2gAt0NuNEYt+ot69Q2MxR86D99LgRUTnCTl3uyWZh0uqJ9cyh5Ih Dc19+UW5/dU33txeVvzIiOVj/cLNPnmqsXYFNFcTjyOK+oOmQmeXwv2Cm0AuvIVHu9X0KN fTHL9JvNmOejAGy+/0oHiQU3P9bjiCRDFcAtYU/vgYK7/7jUzoNrv8xOY0DV/ZaQsQQOnz rKtNPBjF/1GKrvyH0wEVlqNIPgSFHM6ZCLcWJKhb7aTUwQoNAe9EASpFp56MecR9XLxIsN 6xSQdaSEIW+i2ABKbMaPr7lNhZHbzqvr9G5tX2C+9sPI2Z/0L2mtNSZdhkdHsQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 18D2687BEF X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=freebsd.org header.s=dkim header.b=cOCLsWyB; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of root@sfc.wide.ad.jp designates 203.178.142.133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=root@sfc.wide.ad.jp X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.71 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:mail.sfc.wide.ad.jp]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[freebsd.org:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: ironport1.otemachi.wide.ad.jp]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.923,0]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[theraven@FreeBSD.org,root@sfc.wide.ad.jp]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DATE_IN_PAST(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2500, ipnet:203.178.128.0/17, country:JP]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[theraven@FreeBSD.org,root@sfc.wide.ad.jp]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[freebsd.org:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWELVE(0.00)[12]; IP_SCORE(-1.56)[ip: (-5.91), ipnet: 203.178.128.0/17(-1.19), asn: 2500(-0.65), country: JP(-0.06)]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 May 2019 11:21:12 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 10:47:54 -0000 On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual components such as sendmail with a port option. That does entirely solve the problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create a custom base image. Great. But how do I express dependencies in ports on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a specific base package, but how does this work in your model? For example, if I have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of the base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to install it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of my existing version as part of the install process? More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does the maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of use case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need some mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this mechanism is better than using small individual packages. David _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Thu May 2 11:09:10 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43351591609; Thu, 2 May 2019 11:09:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vulpes.vvelox.net (vulpes.vvelox.net [96.95.67.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF2D893B7; Thu, 2 May 2019 11:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vvelox.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: kitsune) by vulpes.vvelox.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0D4B023355C1; Thu, 2 May 2019 06:09:00 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 06:09:00 -0500 From: "Zane C. B-H." To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Cc: David Chisnall , FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Gor?= =?UTF-8?Q?an_Meki=C4=87?= , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base In-Reply-To: <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz> References: <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <6EB65F49-47CD-48B2-8C58-BF387D8C7A58@ixsystems.com> <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz> Message-ID: <8d664f5eb336c955475c97332bcd2b2b@vvelox.net> X-Sender: v.velox@vvelox.net User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.3.3 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0AF2D893B7 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of v.velox@vvelox.net designates 96.95.67.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=v.velox@vvelox.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.52 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:96.95.67.25/32]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[vvelox.net]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.14)[0.139,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mail.vvelox.net]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; IP_SCORE(-0.95)[ip: (-0.90), ipnet: 96.64.0.0/11(-3.92), asn: 7922(0.14), country: US(-0.06)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:96.64.0.0/11, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 May 2019 11:46:13 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 11:09:10 -0000 On 2019-04-30 17:03, Miroslav Lachman wrote: > David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: >> On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: >>> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual >>> components such as sendmail with a port option.  That does entirely >>> solve the problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact >>> without a rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base >>> flavors could solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond >>> python. >> >> This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create >> a custom base image.  Great.  But how do I express dependencies in >> ports on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a >> specific base package, but how does this work in your model?  For >> example, if I have a package that depends on a library that is an >> optional part of the base system, how do I express that pkg needs to >> either refuse to install it, or install a userland pkg that includes >> that library in place of my existing version as part of the install >> process? >> >> More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a >> completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does >> the maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set >> of the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? >> >> One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of >> use case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a >> single service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to >> need some mechanism other than packages to express the specific base >> subset package that you need and I think that you need to justify why >> this mechanism is better than using small individual packages. > > Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the > dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports > tree? Speaking as a ports maintainer, it will be very annoying. Splitting it into a handful of large ass packages, same as you are presented with during install, would be best. From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Sat May 4 16:14:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8771592C3D for ; Sat, 4 May 2019 16:14:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mj-mailinglist@gmx.de) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05208F10B for ; Sat, 4 May 2019 16:14:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mj-mailinglist@gmx.de) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1556986485; bh=dDdso63mvifb3KdsCQ8OSKpmboYqOSFrjsWnAKq1WzY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Subject:Date; b=V+V2f5T8gEnFbi5PqrNhWWsO9LXUgAdGle6U1gPbPj4kUJjMhQX2ePZwU/m+65O93 sOgYVS9Y21TE3YbiIjD7oQA5P+GBiCBoSsp6sMLedM00AvrucIXyOOFm7JaalNM3ns //5PYh/ijMMDjJ2lwmmJ3n/TV6A3jklNsx5WfU/c= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [89.247.30.228] ([89.247.30.228]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bs51.server.lan [172.19.170.104]) (via HTTP); Sat, 4 May 2019 18:14:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Martin Jakob" To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: No master.passwd and group file in FreeBSD-runtime package Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 18:14:44 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:LITXjn2KES9wGTQ6bhICxSQ/49++tMm9GpcPFIX/e9ECCp8dwwnvLSOg+A+z+2khZu+dQ X8nWL/kAkq8TR7mNfmlgd8uyFiWIh+OiltVG4/NWal3PR/nJMGV0NpuZamvzI44gIW5qAbmEaZ81 8EClYxkfNs8GyGnl8dubqwq9OsgSU/Rg13C7cqZNJ2iMWCM3l7CBOE1ddINU4Lm5ImCjHh+H0T2+ aFkGgpIIDWBJwwX2Oe7/lrCDj7/McUJMrH28VEOZ1gk40cIllfELt9egICYTwrL3TmXdQNwEsTXA G4= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jQpR92+YZ1M=:0d0RICarNGBRFzXkOyPZx1 iqrR6pwRjPGc1LrToSCnt+ATDAEjWbzr5ZyQ2u5/PJR4eOKY+9gWBd6ygeEkKccaWMUL8Tp/9 Mq6nUEalYZu0ZGIXiZYV3jqdbf0tzlGu891KSqMfcq3pkjf2rrJPfQQT/Q0wzdp4yxp7QstQG AO+nMb0TwfOkawKPn+D/9qsa1SAxiooiseM6iyuBoYwBSM8f6qsaXf5RNJ70+m/h5fW9ilJj9 4ypLPcFYdOfVNQIvuLICVgXQO/jVnKXl7Z3KVMx0m26VhP19NC4BPz4E++185D9IWzFYzMs1T 9iz6LJpmCHU3wPO6JL/JIilbKFhrxQQ8Cq87Qu33L08Da3focU0lPqibgzYGaMR+vM87OPKNE et/RaaTysLLOPrkWUd7Nvv5uc2O9/yc0iZiyNHDxmBQjxT/UnDu9b/mnl0VrlLqiAp2U1SQIN Y12hMrLHzACNN3FRlMM+ijrN1bI0PBSht4eHH85a0azTKdus2QGBuU89e+iC2ikAoYxcr0ulp XfOs4qN7Ht1t5RC10QGa4YPTjRm54Xf7Pc1cuU7ohkHhNnmVb3ZpHziUFF569nian4lZNgV0I ACwDy37VqlpB/GFQ9x7VI9ltkS0ZcBQyeXV0XX6n/MPvvkjTpoWhtQqQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: F05208F10B X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=V+V2f5T8; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mj-mailinglist@gmx.de designates 212.227.17.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mj-mailinglist@gmx.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.17.0/27]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.de]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mx00.emig.gmx.net,mx01.emig.gmx.net]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.873,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[20.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[228.30.247.89.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.10]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.de]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.de]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.01)[ip: (-5.47), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.44), asn: 8560(1.85), country: DE(-0.01)]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 16:14:51 -0000 While experimenting with jails and pkgbase (you can read about it here: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-pkgbase/2019-April/000431.html), i noticed that the files master.passwd and hosts are not included in the FreeBSD-runtime package. So, in my case the created jail does not start correctly. The package is prepared for processing the master.passwd file, by calling the pwd_mkdb command internaly, but this fails because the files are not there. A FreeBSD-runtime package modified by me, to include these two files, results in a working jail. My question is, are there reasons to exclude the master.passwd and group files from the package? Maybe to prevent problems when performing a pkg upgrade run on the system? -- regards Martin Jakob