From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 01:11:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E292FD458 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:11:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZKyb3vTlz44X0 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:11:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id d1so6109233ila.8 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 18:11:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Piuqor7uijZnvZwyjy8/CAHG8lT/WIqYIaTqX3Q7Co4=; b=UE44y8CMOvUi+VTpPl1QpcvQTKLJVhUQ9v+mza2zMCcatb+by9KizgmuSO9m4rJwph EKZq+5SnPYRl2cMPF414aSRy4oYEnVuCQBabcz7IuI0uQWZg2L5clm+wx01EWp3GvTv5 Zu00ulMF1xW97myq5KofDVW+5wWTf6IGH05VDYcebtZ0qODDUxBk6eYWKvWPsMFZ2nJo jP1/ogdPMVmKON0w34I1ZxxJCmk0Zw7YkXas+q1NmwsAlZ+6R1GQ/v7IGlSFhZXicxyO Pj3/oG6FKX69UKXom9pRhz3rD7SoNX5aUgAQwBusgo0uM+Xq/Lzse4HEcUW9WDhYUDR8 mAEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Piuqor7uijZnvZwyjy8/CAHG8lT/WIqYIaTqX3Q7Co4=; b=VkkKFfImoQTUt05JJhkxcW5tkfPtZVT/w0NNOlorVqYtsI8jjBHBjcjEeSnDScuVNv gYIZpHGCRCwb0eLxhxi3/x3GxXGiy8Ebc5wNobk5dFarK2cxd91raKmhP1ptDvrfMui2 tSmC73mBG5eXhTYRhZTBJxmsYvQHD2bDCNzXfToBAVO9k/Pmk0OojQbdRRDvp1QCz0h7 vL/35HYUOvCWVFyQEiaevGuceYuW5YXjI0FeNJ/5m5In6VYsnB6tXz5K3DO4cRHq8sVh PwJ6ptQ1vWs4vqVls9P7vnNz3zSKx9qTpHTHIAWXuuwXw5riPY4JCRHWSLvSjem3bHNY NUNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xnilWenFBsBj7nXcdIKAzQUS+M/xDHhoehkZjy7+PETOstCnA OJDn6vKtVTYfvZdsTd0RF9lz6fn3SnosXAi4i+vgLNjA X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQtFcMg0PusCLUvwvi9xbpMMz8YxZ2NpyKq++WzPRlfs9L2mzTMSHwViyzhHx3CTU93bEsVifoWW2GiAzWeg8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c78e:: with SMTP id c14mr4322927ilk.70.1590887510212; Sat, 30 May 2020 18:11:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:6cf:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 30 May 2020 18:11:49 -0700 (PDT) From: David Mehler Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 21:11:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: rsync counts not identical To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZKyb3vTlz44X0 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=UE44y8CM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of davemehler@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=davemehler@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.53 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.955]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.41)[0.412]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 01:11:52 -0000 Hello, I'm using rsync on two FreeBSD servers to send files and subfolders from one to the other. The command I'm using is rsync -avz /path/of/first/system/folder/ /path/of/second/system/folder/ The first set of files/folders is on a ufs disk, the second on a zfs volume, differences in sizes are 13 to 20MB differences between the source and destination. Is this normal? Thanks. Dave. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 01:39:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046002FE40C for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:39:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZLYs5pzvz461H; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:38:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MnaY1-1jFoKm0SDF-00jadA; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:38:53 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:38:52 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: Matthew Seaman , "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-Id: <20200531033852.9c345a6b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iHL6wAzX1EfVMKbQglgUTzvyB19nzKEOWu3XaxCOW5eilPf9IvM Q2bx2svkBAbzS86XNDEggvr0I53vO3In9dhoTY1saVPj8hXiw3esm2p9RYVQlaxUDPX5FAa rl4Rjg0E9zLtcIwiCVlZ02ujFuywYeGLsToNRJbs+6rseeqyaDGd2qGJdjKzwwraug+wsY9 boKyOjQYnBI16MaRack+g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:AOMc2mJFNHI=:x8GZlbTbcJVmV8Vbr4Yv1m PZXnL7SnbjXKCyyN5DueM8M+wTfega+peW6G/sV3mLfQaDyQuS59lfFDs1BCfN7+f2IRfBSL4 JZ5TMIMydcLxxZ1kifPPvcIgC2hTLbP/w6wlgSGSw9vflrrR3c0pZT8oul7XcjPNXQnYBJheW xpz9KmGscPDKx58AfIGNitCw/R7r05nxJUT55KNgSzblzjflIXh/IWFgjwkQCSAT3OTYCRePT F+bvPztbk+4eJHKVxZC0H0aLuT0ocxawxi61i5pt6cxP1hoT6ucxAVV5hUfRpvVKGCu7WWMC+ V9TDmsij3pTqwKxl8oyFapPSC6rNdizDwTLcoO7ra29JZWn+ZY9PYV93o2tKsRoDu9Pp/AvDm apIYFLTeSZ/2Pjl3cAU6FD6EeKhGfPJhGgByBzmGmkKSWWBU5BfRHa9RdzWpVecsB7XXqNPBn KgjNqM5InjHPo6CEkOcCUvOOIz40/XBMiWMXH0UDI80V/vG9anw9Ten/P+UfFgci7xleRkrUq nkUgzbQgJhsvG+rYVTX8wPyliGvYcebUnMMbrzh4lTetXOiHxCHvzP5nk+4zQZzniL/zjfC0k hrcORrVMAt56U67TVrs4Kpq3LDgGl0Y7BK0r9Z1Ok2rsNqnipFcQZzcrkkgDyR4EkyubJ76D2 uoELhQ1N0eWhHxMzow1uHgcgJNKklplyN5zU1Xds4q/75Mv7BMZRjeQNgO1XGwAJRJ7Lmwl3F 1PgMXNIpY4ccRiOj2OmiuWuNOOl7zFzXC6O+QiWtB2VR120A2YqIXTm9s8uvpjeEr/Hf8K/LU RFDPQ5ru1FgZVKzzkOueZ61GzJd5S9ZxP9vRYFimuS9RWSRMVQ2/bjaqZB3miNNN461nZDMgl w/+nR0uJ60iQjAgr1tIA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZLYs5pzvz461H X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.97 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.10)[-0.099]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.81)[0.811]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.86)[0.857]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 01:39:00 -0000 On Sat, 30 May 2020 23:03:59 +0000, Brandon helsley wrote: > So to find out the legality of licensing to port a program to > freebsd do all I have to do is contact that programs website. That is the first step to go. For most open source programs, it should not be a big problem to make them available as a FreeBSD port when a Linux version already exists. However, contacting the original author(s) is probably the best thing you can do. In absolutely worst case, you can always contact a legal counsel, if that should be needed. > And then source code is quite easy to obtain I see. Depends. Some projects have their own website where they also publish source code, others use external services like GitHub. I'm also sure there are at least a few which use different services, like their own SVN server or something like that. In certain cases, _no_ source code is distributed (for example the nVidia graphics driver published by nVidia is just a binary blob, embedded as a port, so building the port does not compile anything, instead it just creates a package from an existing set of binary files). > It would just be on git hub right. At least today, that would surely be the most common way. > For the executable script and profiles and config files l, > I guessing the porters handbook is how you fashion those > in working order? Correct. Understand a port as a "cooking recipe" that describes where to obtain program sources from, how to patch them, how to build them, and where to install the results to. That kind of "recipe" is standardized - it's more or less the same approach for all ports. The result of following that "recipe" usually is a package that can be installed with pkg (and "make install" does exactly that). Note that there are a few ports where the licensing terms do not allow distribution in binary form - such ports cannot be installed via "pkg install", instead you always have to build them from source. This aspect is alco controlled by the "recipe". The FreeBSD Porter's Handbook provides an excellent foundation on how all those things work, from file description, their meaning and content, which tools and procedures, up to how the results of building a port are structured. So I'd suggest that reading this specific piece of documentation is essential for anyone who wants to become a port maintainer. You simply cannot get it working without it. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 01:42:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E652FE4B4 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZLdc6lcdz46cM for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M8k65-1jaY9T3BOj-004hGb; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:42:10 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:42:10 +0200 From: Polytropon To: David Mehler Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rsync counts not identical Message-Id: <20200531034210.ed0ddc30.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xTptPnIHFXx5P7sJTS7XKpY1jp+3U6KqA2PD6zQtXPXp+VnwFpa WEqUWpynuriwTO3nh7K0Cmp9igR7TvxvdaFLx0hq8IbEzimuoxg9vCSJDtiP5752JtUlBJ7 Mr3/8FRDO7fcnZgbybI4MGdIqXRqUMzJrh0uuqIA2Mid7bt9FqcBKkShXAuNeev6naf4MzA iZyFYEgiOxTrKucoorbJw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:N9VOVaqBECY=:sj9X+bA/DfX5vIkoqGM7Fs ZepjaDXeklJJdkHlVtA6iEtWvfr4xWIx+g8UJgtEOpBrHGGTD9eKH7JAg/BEV0ukaztN8y55w 8hAPJAHpxeaRTZ65sfwsMvmTRTPHI05LQsIk1Ehlk/57Fa4PRXVgMjxowdz34Gjxf/2o8Mi+8 zZtsZB2rxuZY+RR1z+a8mjb8ilE+iLm8u+S4NhOeUi6T5AlHTetrIRWDAocFwfZf/9Gn0HO08 DsAqPPD8XTRBpKK2lM9IYAJE2WNrfEvRyUb7K/mL1QvXripFizAPyoIANqTgsJMacG7HCYu7N bpW38y9BLyalrNSS7JpKHdHQwUpmpBSCcThmLn1KDDUMRAtM7mQ4rHR89GhjYsypKO1atCICg VoVk5D3LqvWV+P/OIPpHqsW/xadrYPHEXrK2XdfYxvWHXxjXhcOhsTK7cPZT9URS4QmqqV9XG 8PYc8xr0fH/uRYOOM7MibdlMLHSuWm8oWXdkRjCVNbDNZ/4hxgRSVKeL/lVM2iz2JrxeVTT5I Y8QQ6r35drBTS9nPbj7rpRBqND48yRi2+QlqdpalLR0mKlNtaEObgNQF8KPrpxHqaFG3t8pZo EbGdfiJNBn58BmkBajVPdiigUBva5lIqWJyLgGYtbJKdWGCqsVwWvwiqDiAbDbtUSD8p29R8D 3LqZbx+FYckAbaXWbftPE3Fy/vOm6Fndpu9LmwEe8WwWkK1GNc/ZDeZAWlHpt6CITaqdq2uRq 307lUMPqTUHzlL44ssXoNof5PwgbkHavl0ICdhV5tEnmHlWislHlEboqKSCqEzn23iGr9mf0U Uzag/MaYFTAfOYyr3QupIszCU8fLsuu7GX07KbjxCXGmaW6mThqmZaO3F6LhqahM4HvgdLS X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZLdc6lcdz46cM X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.09 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.094]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_NEUTRAL(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.89)[0.887]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.90)[0.896]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:14 -0000 On Sat, 30 May 2020 21:11:49 -0400, David Mehler wrote: > Hello, > > I'm using rsync on two FreeBSD servers to send files and subfolders > from one to the other. The command I'm using is rsync -avz > /path/of/first/system/folder/ /path/of/second/system/folder/ > > The first set of files/folders is on a ufs disk, the second on a zfs > volume, differences in sizes are 13 to 20MB differences between the > source and destination. Is this normal? How have the sizes been measured? Is it possible that some symlinks or hardlinks have been "resolved" in some undesired way? PS. Technically correct term is "directory"; a "folder" is the name of an icon representing (!) a directory. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 01:42:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9192FE4C0 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-27.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-27.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZLf039zlz46rx for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 0VRLFdUVM1lsccKJ6Wdm4ICgdhM4i0OAlDlK0FPEKSCYIGkJ3btGgsraq97QUwW 05cnwN7BPY_4Jwl2TKbXCDll3DPjbYwHEallDxbkPiIMFwgjIjUcL_MEmBY0FB.FwuYF4mDJb9Hm 5nH5Ser5SLPcPng3DW6Y5Vy_gVWLcoUxR4yPfLT6ythhi4zB0qOAp6zYOU7fqGOB9FvaPiCns7vV Fyvs6bgekQiJlgd.DiXxpRwq6QvdH7etaMTNbNjteKZjhE14c.6bIBHReqhUmB6qyzvtcSbXFeBo zWy6fLOr9za1A3OThZywk1YWVdMTcOY5P9Qh7rW9uQDXHCitkAJw0Cq_26QtDfsVQV.ffOaC00qH gM2JeBYmC_hp5hViA_dTrrp6gYuCXhQIdZL7Dp5xQHQtocrQMU0mE39HIQNZII0_.uTJK9B7xaaW 03YHNexgWcby4pE5O_X.D1dmYnDoWAy6NV9kV.bkv5N6RzmUtHxU1xggZEl0tzSAye0IMkP9h8PO _OlbBg3Dpee3mZ8oJbhCngz5MfrY6auZZHy5i3b_oPmql.5PU56g.BkZJXBF4BQ43CA.kvqYZMDq 9zbLnufvfhMwDxDaK2Q8aUB6uT6sX45sp201mbhX_GSd2wphRBhAxldRoQ9TLCPknCv5fL0L6dmu OdVhudoqGxa4Kyq6_6cvyTlp2guufRxUp06Gy5HOr4VjnQm1mtQx8vm5jBTO4tfwcpjN_YzJ2H4O fFlHShKYimgUrUd7.Eib.D0dMprtgiCgncq1xomii7oj8optzX3V4mJeo4MI7oG41fOcM78AfNiC wBWd3TgK3PTNnBgK4mevuuBoULiB2nzarJMvNyEqQ4HAFe4krkh5ihfQ.jRhlGgBx54DnPlJ9lcP zBXFyoH00Xgy_T8lqwD5m.YdVqvJhR2xlwCoH2ep3hXgzrLL6DpfRkd9.2l3JiMLsh4_Z9NmYsmA HO7WrAgp1B.UNY.HHmmA_Ey51E5QP2X29CPHadhZDpwgHRB6ZTLAYC9lPy_VxtbKc32mqv2uCHXP CDYwWR4iNSmWNGvYotnfl2OXoJHj7zK0kuDZBP2RGkAigcby1m6ozyk.LJcSsSnvFji9m.GLKgzL .06ycJF6dPF3eLFlY5wyDcDRJE0nLQdPY0xpviW7qLQFuxFTXdBGzAIfKm0xZYPnKf8tEtUrp68P fYeEVI82I48QfV0q1P4Uq5hFn_KiM4J_EAbFecRdy.hOFSDlaj9eBbDZ.TnFcR_VJ.iJt2Tv8XCn 0sxiXqr2v.AkDPQD1OrMXvmq03xZMUU7CCNw.L51nh7grIsoHvmbD7gzptlWvRBisCH8CftJ_UBE 3sPH1vG7Sw95bxLVBLM76Z3QKVwiOEJAxLQ2tdZk3h1zJdzoHggPYw_wBrh10ne6wHodP53XvLbo ngE8- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:30 +0000 Received: by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8fbbad8473c901f6566e684a12a07a47; Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:29 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:42:31 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-ID: <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZLf039zlz46rx X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.40 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.98:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.00)[-0.001]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.904]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.98:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 01:42:33 -0000 On Sat, 30 May 2020 23:03:59 +0000, Brandon helsley wrote: >So to find out the legality of licensing to port a program to freebsd >do all I have to do is contact that programs website. And then source >code is quite easy to obtain I see. It would just be on git hub right. Not necessarily on Microsoft's hosting service GitHub. There are SourceForge, GitLab a zillion other and some developers simply use their own homepage to provide the source code. >For the executable script and profiles and config files l, I guessing >the porters handbook is how you fashion those in working order? I don't know if the hanbook mentions the following, too. Often it's wiser to get in touch with upstream, to ask them to fix an issue, than to fix an issue by a FreeBSD port (or any other operating system's repository). Often just reporting a bug correctly is the best thing to do. Go to the issue tracker and describe an issue. What happens? What should happen instead? Post the output you get by a terminal, strace, gdb a log file... Describe the steps to reproduce the issue. The developer probably will reply and give you pointers in helping troubleshooting. So you will learn a lot you might need the day you become a port maintainer. Maybe before maintaining a port, you will use your skills to help maintaining Wikis, so you would help FLOSS communities and get more skills yourself. Now that you know the procedures, it makes more sense to read the FreeBSD handbooks and Wikis that are not necessarily related to FreeBSD only, on how to do things, such as maintaining a port, debugging or even how to do interleaved posting when replying to a mailing list thread. etc. and after that, if still necessary, to ask for help on a mailing list. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 02:16:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617882FEC7B for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 02:16:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZMPg2vrPz48Yp for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 02:16:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id 18so6161083iln.9 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 19:16:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NmsA0MXPNncrxvsrt9/lPRmQspVb+JH9TcmoKpWwiPs=; b=V4rmLK+ov+6xPPJ14AzNvxcHA8tsk9VdxLv/cxbY2oRxbkyXJM57znED8YmCkQvEYT u2oD5ybC27rHbBHi66stabiFypG8GmsuC+x16XZMJiop7/rKbBDLMjYd/gyqkNAmpHSE 08sR5LAfM6ZVrOgAetkGi7emMXg1Ep46WipuRyo/UljpIp2b7j497H0wp8vHsov7Pzz1 SZH+/FCIk0B/lcpkew/xNGMXbzj//t3/ktVZFE1IBFVwNDszkDN73RY7ORA78YV0oqY9 Q/bjMKLb4Y/FreMYD2dr1lVcafPECUkgJKjtIl7hqTsaYcW6+gg1pBnfHux9zAI21t+2 ayVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NmsA0MXPNncrxvsrt9/lPRmQspVb+JH9TcmoKpWwiPs=; b=DjX65zxh1wjuFFPUUg/fOZEHvP8mrZDepeEAOcz2UXfr7Tnyk5szxdeDahpx8Ghv7t xQwzI9h/iLOKCpE4iIOyjt9jClAd67HBNQh4bskn1kxpYsR5lnPyMskuTaibK+ueyCWQ MzHrZBt046r1zdi8RhJ1LGOQmP8ScKQxnJhPDvq0IgEboVFEUz9+HLMK2dS8bN+2EJS9 xXEIUZc1xQUOQvXr/rOY3xeaHuUHHl6G6u/sdjW5tDnHwmZvxVxlj1IisirX96mmOQ3Z uTPs1HLvnme09PnGT0DY1aXsGJNkSDAv0Be8QBd9vJf0wEZJbnRHD941YPtYIqCQClkE rb8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QJKRHxG1sc5+5oHPK6LC/daHXDa7Pm34hTfa0J+az7Wpz4Zcv TmlzKVYz2kYLefy3eX1+VDdPmO8zT4RNt8djCe0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxN4g02wgTY3iR3JtWLWT9DrudTY5bcgthqczq8zKnYWwx0J57A2rkeLAk9YBXv2SSVv2uyCeVjaLt+Bj7O8Qk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c94f:: with SMTP id i15mr13758561ilq.185.1590891414196; Sat, 30 May 2020 19:16:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 22:16:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZMPg2vrPz48Yp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=V4rmLK+o; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.95 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.951]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::142:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 02:16:56 -0000 On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 9:42 PM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Sat, 30 May 2020 23:03:59 +0000, Brandon helsley wrote: > >So to find out the legality of licensing to port a program to freebsd > >do all I have to do is contact that programs website. And then source > >code is quite easy to obtain I see. It would just be on git hub right. > > Not necessarily on Microsoft's hosting service GitHub. There are > SourceForge, GitLab a zillion other and some developers simply use > their own homepage to provide the source code. > > >For the executable script and profiles and config files l, I guessing > >the porters handbook is how you fashion those in working order? > > I don't know if the hanbook mentions the following, too. Often it's > wiser to get in touch with upstream, to ask them to fix an issue, than > to fix an issue by a FreeBSD port (or any other operating system's > repository). > Depends on how active the upstream is and how critical the fix is. For example on the port I maintain the original developer (upstream) passed away from complications of cancer in 2014 and thus there is no upstream, yet since I use the port as a critical component in my daily work I have kept it in good working order with patches on FreeBSD. Now the question is why do I continue to use devel/aegis instead of switching over to svn or git? Real simple aegis enforces a more robust development model then either svn or git (non-working code is almost impossible to add to the repo/baseline until you prove/make it work). I also use devel/cook from the same original developer for similar reasons over make (see "Recursive Make Considered Harmful"). The aside on why I use aegis is to show even if a port has no upstream if it still provides real value to the users of it you should still maintain it and make the needed patches to keep it in good working order as the FreeBSD base system evolves. > Often just reporting a bug correctly is the best thing to do. Go to the > issue tracker and describe an issue. What happens? What should happen > instead? Post the output you get by a terminal, strace, gdb a log > file... Describe the steps to reproduce the issue. > One way of gaining is to volunteer to be a pre-port commit tester. > > The developer probably will reply and give you pointers in helping > troubleshooting. So you will learn a lot you might need the day you > become a port maintainer. Maybe before maintaining a port, you will use > your skills to help maintaining Wikis, so you would help FLOSS > communities and get more skills yourself. > How does maintaining a wiki in and upon itself help any community? > Now that you know the procedures, it makes more sense to read the > FreeBSD handbooks and Wikis that are not necessarily related to > FreeBSD only, on how to do things, such as maintaining a port, debugging > or even how to do interleaved posting when replying to a mailing list > thread. etc. and after that, if still necessary, to ask for help on a > mailing list. > Just a general comment on the "no top posting" "rule" that FreeBSD has no one else has such a rule and many mail clients do top posting by default and make interleaving non-trivial (such OP's it appears). Additionally there is enough top posting being done on today's Internet that everyone should be familiar with it and know how to read it in context. So we might want to recommend interleaving but it should not be some rule set in stone that will get any newbie flamed for not using it, talk about one way to turn people off to FreeBSD quickly. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 02:43:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC032FF8C4 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 02:43:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZN012PLRz4Bb4 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 02:43:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id v11so6252138ilh.1 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AOwKIualcgkGXGU7csDzm/p7Y57q/QIS9ptIy89gIc0=; b=bx01/RXGP8N1ZtUKWA47oE1A0VxSfoHLqTNr0991pEgxvbbd33CCyk9S4LcDnOcR8N IOH7yHW7sUdhIDmf+53sUdZNP34OzJpH4yp/62v7qqXuVvOOjsoBoZdnQZ26t4HAHPxo dVljbfQ3BcdMK3wvL16X3WTbVKAk0NBOMr6qBDLvX6uJrvzW5K+aTZe6w4Lxc1rBEF3V 6Yd1LGJOYUJSGX5gP+HByj1vFbsXolgonVs/IQFJwAOj3yJ28XtHR4dgLDVFtkXU0MBz ciGJeUCoxt22rQiT5uNM3/35Dj9XinSEQMJsGz+iz75xSRKbs8Npobly35gr+6I137pQ vedA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AOwKIualcgkGXGU7csDzm/p7Y57q/QIS9ptIy89gIc0=; b=Ei17ZkZU+atC1MXbbW1C3svTj7bvE9skBS1jH/+7rHaugMHiQ5bP9URPQ0tqP9k5Ve neyTpkZW/Kp0/ADKM2Ah1cYLrx3Qt6JJMtdTQJoSyzMHmk5VTThYj0yrYbyj2FWZnVJs jeq8yZIT4TsYSm80ARM6LCTOybZBkrPdfD0MEspjaHjc59viC0JeHnvSHAjyRHRpbO1U 0Xy4nOlZ9N8nXE30rctcSuD8Kdy49EASNj2Qh/BOyozH9Zat0B+Jq4S471UpNDhLJHID Ed0AfRhp8fjIkEuP09JdA0VsTL3tkr7xT9WhG2qh7qdwVwGlae1WBCQE5zLGJbHefitL omsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530+4x5G/QV7fbu+YoIVFqq1hZsJPcj2hLM5yRXuGg4M5+HynjpH iLF8VLmomFMdMmwQ3YYT0m+BBIl6CU4aU35gg4Gv4Jug X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxIf9SlWu1f+IOi6VXE/EwRxMj+RW8TeT3Wzf0PF/FdsqAwUBIN7coQZRcN7bqmtqEaeBlCb879n0XnyNfC5JE= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cf48:: with SMTP id c8mr14523331ilr.147.1590892992076; Sat, 30 May 2020 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:6cf:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 30 May 2020 19:43:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200531034210.ed0ddc30.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200531034210.ed0ddc30.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Mehler Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 22:43:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: rsync counts not identical To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZN012PLRz4Bb4 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=bx01/RXG; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of davemehler@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=davemehler@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.06 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.006]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::133:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.06)[-1.061]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 02:43:14 -0000 Hello, Thanks, I did a du -sh on both source and destination directories. Thanks. Dave. On 5/30/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Sat, 30 May 2020 21:11:49 -0400, David Mehler wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I'm using rsync on two FreeBSD servers to send files and subfolders >> from one to the other. The command I'm using is rsync -avz >> /path/of/first/system/folder/ /path/of/second/system/folder/ >> >> The first set of files/folders is on a ufs disk, the second on a zfs >> volume, differences in sizes are 13 to 20MB differences between the >> source and destination. Is this normal? > > How have the sizes been measured? > > Is it possible that some symlinks or hardlinks have been > "resolved" in some undesired way? > > > > > PS. > > Technically correct term is "directory"; a "folder" is the name > of an icon representing (!) a directory. ;-) > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 03:11:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D146D328535 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:11:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZNct3bTwz4DgS for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:11:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: EdQzV2sVM1lSwkgXsmTpz08AL9J_Y5QgTWbCBqSbtJSAGcuAxYaOirCdzNjiSxS 7ALIOBJJriLbyGwqXXfoPsrodJ2dEBnSCqo5DOZdwE_ypE7ry9x5fp_7TdlAeaQf0s8JlN9t19UN 32BwWy8NpYU1IOajBA22Z08_qx8QxFCzF3QoZS8Y6RqV68wdF84HBRCF2H.hAkRvOaJAf2TsN4qE voDl4XtVPh7_wbSiH4rv82xz8iondbgo6jpO4caiTBnE3mpLldNHsMG_TDgSWmtS7MDf_6AOAGcM VWASvA5SUW2.eELcRj0.Q4Pm_OFBVJIOTyjUX_J1K3FzbULK3OuvvKvMGLKIG9reyDjw056pI1Pu 7HcOK8MsmLRPeF4nTxDh6zrSuxF15Gt46kzweLrqHS5Onz1ltMY6ZKHn_bQi2JvQydqVuhfZT2.n o5x2jwpXFZqtO1yXUTgfs4Sl.sjyj6PX8IpyPptHh6P88xggXV8Mk_zGLCebr0lebFZBTGxrEgu5 NX7h6z5ksjZCddvHvdSk3B8z4pnz0EXybwqelVvKIKAff3S7LJwVkgHd3tLJrqnX.vct70yO0EFM fzb2vvS8bLZFL6XDsLph4h4OZYOOv6xT0pkfaoKG35d6NHygouQRnHrxtlhlcjRq0gDIF7skvn4g 0OpbfJ.qlXGpd8CeK8AzbxaTv52yR2gc_lR9KO80xxZhRb8DaILgzuKPIBDh4fRGrnhxRZv2yjI6 VQYvbM3UuDuCHWlBvaQy.d0RRRJHtJ9g9SteJA7tNotwjhxrs6.SSJr6t2hg1gyNzbw9mTxOJsVc 80xffIkQM5ZOGYUHPb3Yhu92BjeVjlHV_V0YwffhBnkP8lt6JpEWJrnrls47L3tOf4iLKKYB5wdT 3ejjQ_MH5EkhOhM_o0RpOQo3rcnmbF3MtebVIXWEo9XH6L4gs4wvhRHp7mqF3nnKewnEWRyCZJFI sSEMsWgmmE8OBmjK4XYuC8XJHP5HAHpm5HmXbLQ8.1rnAPjNpJOxhEUp1hIEcuBPMM2K5wZDoZU4 5qSXP.dpZe9aQGNIFhYvyuoVjWuFLtDD0uRRMiODxiry.PIPfK844ivXxFG0PDqnhRzyecbYGGxd mr0M3a6UEF9VbuRpYxOCwxzeyzfmDoV2B9nnL8skXsLgBmKHMVLNS4RC0f9Cf12no4wjJxV2tnWy KHRp2MSJzefFKKCRuGQqoT3ozFDSaCTvARNU9u4ksyuTuP0qFMMYddj4JJ3wjnfbBYEPSJUfqycw jSP.EamUmRPUHYcpRG_6B7K11qT2aoBSKUs1EtOwhWvZXp.3g3Qp05TAV.3STnMAU23kLG3HHpOY tcmIYCTaFj_LHGHRTnE0Gu0oClBLY7scwi1Yf.eYyhqNpJSEHqjG.KN6QCgv7JJ9RoWn84UPvtGN m6cZzcbA- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:11:39 +0000 Received: by smtp405.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 761cb5acbc5639d6bd20680d6e69f439; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:11:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 05:11:39 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-ID: <20200531051139.56914db2@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZNct3bTwz4DgS X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.07 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.97:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.657]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.912]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.97:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:11:44 -0000 On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:16:42 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 9:42 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> I don't know if the hanbook mentions the following, too. Often it's >> wiser to get in touch with upstream, to ask them to fix an issue, >> than to fix an issue by a FreeBSD port (or any other operating >> system's repository). > >Depends on how active the upstream is and how critical the fix is. Full acknowledge >How does maintaining a wiki in and upon itself help any community? Man(ual) pages are sometimes incomplete and even if they are complete they seldom provide hints, to e.g. understand pitfalls. Keep in mind something simple such as globbing. Information about stdout, stderr... Good software without a manual at all. Pitfalls such as immutable files, that a user even with root privileges can't remove, due to set attributes. Pitfalls such as sudo echo "1234" > test returns "Permission denied". Beginners usually need a hint, that sudo applies to echo, not to the redirection, so a Wiki might inform about tee: echo "1234" | sudo tee test >Just a general comment on the "no top posting" "rule" that FreeBSD has >no one else has such a rule and many mail clients do top posting by >default and make interleaving non-trivial (such OP's it appears). >Additionally there is enough top posting being done on today's >Internet that everyone should be familiar with it and know how to read >it in context. So we might want to recommend interleaving but it >should not be some rule set in stone that will get any newbie flamed >for not using it, talk about one way to turn people off to FreeBSD >quickly. In addition to ignoring bottom posting subscribers might want to send HTML text only, break lines of posted terminal output, recursively quote signatures or way more fun, keep the complete digest text. How many rules could be ignored before communication becomes impossible? Confusing the subject with the mail's body, breaking threads? Actually it's possible to move the cursor and to delete content when using any mail client. A lot users don't write a new mail, they push a reply button, replace the subject and the body, so their "new" thread actually is a reply to another thread. Moving the cursor and deleting works when doing this, but not for bottom or interleaved posting? Btw. even replying to digest emails does not need to break threading and the subject: http://www.list.org/mailman-member/node28.html Sometimes I'm using iPad Mail, a disgusting mailer, but it's still possible to move the cursor and edit a reply. Almost all mailing lists have got similar etiquettes for good reasons, not just the FreeBSD and Linux mailing lists, also mailing lists of upstream providing software for FreeBSD and/or Linux and even philosophers or scientists mailing lists tend to follow those rules. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 03:12:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B4832862B for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:12:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZNdb1stGz4Dqs for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:12:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 20:12:09 -0700 Subject: Re: rsync counts not identical To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200531034210.ed0ddc30.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 20:12:08 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZNdb1stGz4Dqs X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.31 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.75)[0.751]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.951]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.71)[0.710]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:12:21 -0000 > On 5/30/20, Polytropon wrote: >> On Sat, 30 May 2020 21:11:49 -0400, David Mehler wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm using rsync on two FreeBSD servers to send files and >>> subfolders from one to the other. The command I'm using is rsync -avz /path/of/first/system/folder/ /path/of/second/system/folder/ >>> The first set of files/folders is on a ufs disk, the second on a >>> zfs volume, differences in sizes are 13 to 20MB differences >>> between the source and destination. Is this normal? >> >> How have the sizes been measured? >> >> Is it possible that some symlinks or hardlinks have been "resolved" >> in some undesired way? On 2020-05-30 19:43, David Mehler wrote: > Thanks, I did a du -sh > on both source and destination directories. Your rsync(1) command is not deleting files on the destination that do not exist on the source. See the various '--delete' options. You might have leftover files or directories on the destination that do not exist on the source. Your du(1) command is displaying disk usage, not apparent size. See the '-A' option. It is unlikely that UFS and ZFS will use the exact same amount of disk space for the same content. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 03:56:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7B532A1CE for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:56:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZPcD0jPQz4JwJ for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:56:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: Rx_U8asVM1nLsduf_mSSi4k6b64CoqAiR3wT0Iw.fA78RIbcYLnzMeDge7GInvv ayJ0LQxQXQ8P5r1nutE7CkXG5fEEK4fwdN_8uyZD86XpIa039hwxJqRDgddYEfBiq7S02fgo8fcY SO5_BaoSfyCl3b6LxA3NlBCBz9Q1XKYlEBj8UUQnTVAtzZZEaenTvFmVvORIIPDpUMV11QS5CXVO EROt.75HvKTxbURQE74AV_YxS5B3u5gPYNEGk1tDboiPa5Vtc3xbFEMjs2u6zfQLJNkJ0LK_.nfY dkcdfm1cAXTmmuuJc9L11JJhNmfar4mTJbgG3Vfrfdr.6x5DA2txul0uIn.5bN0O657vRPqG.HhE 3toLX97_kh.be6yr3KFdD7F0PBv1Hth1jMEFjHnhv.ath6SnKN4kMTApmg3buvZQ_VTD7ZjXZ9ZV xVItqkCVPzrGf21UuBkkso6dkTrM26JOWMw0Bc0e55VK0VErIZC5ToaKZ_RIhuYMOQXEdJPtaah0 MnHmjuGVcE_YNzSLDGTf1rO7vRb64kZ6ihQnvFutBPo9.bKxo3QniIkMxnTfW7rWs7N0fqsf.rF6 apKOnLF3vxGpobF3SJJqj2V_Ar9gX1pX0hHv9pGbE2fCCE4mpih_mjW6E2wueXv.WTABZcHpUpWK BFAOLRvAKfIpuMEtXg2knHcQkpm1CT.uMjzgg.FqpjdVW2vZbjQ3RZnL9FegnbiwuY6W6EQ5e5D5 f.pChmLNX_McEJ9CwK8PcaR_bjb96UFp6IUemN7CXEINCuaDM..XrkcnjUUb0MR8PRRznS_YJ7ko Z14PChbU4eaV_1G6JedxvZI0Gk5282zhhK8U3KxoKfU3aha3EaQwn6YUeGmK2dsJZtiKPR92HuZv lNUPUNoTZxFI7IqliCViAXVK_U0UXjJCwdRGp0k6.7NwkcsTe6LVuVdcfxj3DrT4vEcgyfwAYXAa fNwQzPPrtWL27B2qzqQQcf0CoN29A1EsYIc1IlkocvJeXFP4giE.cNozf0DiLOBQHMwSC6uCMsLT 7e.kp.vEJDsDvEXsklXDMFPdXy12OaWXDW8BGaTH7xAuvx3v8E.XUZ_5zzVBsAGfovwVbjwBztE5 zRwF_Mdq6TZU4o9fBHF92xTs76qSn2k4fsUjpG4QqC9nMVBzUfD0_35x96OVj.UXzlis1q4P4Lch .mGDZgoCRG_1oMNNBx6aWGIxdRhZ8WAOB30xY8oqKrUx6_BR84p4IvSp8vUZqBxS8_FJwzm2r2bU QzmCAWIbv1_ZrI322vxPBx2w8cAuOnsApzzo.p26KddD02GuPYts8Oy5pPtaqIGS6duDHezhJa1u UOUoSzmCCovcS_q5nRrpI72_hRQWwGu9dvnMP.zWAm4ESft9DJV2vXl4auUVkNa_y6PVu2r_2sx1 o9NkAYtk- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:56:09 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 92be201810b8b93453be097813f27059; Sun, 31 May 2020 03:56:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 05:56:07 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-ID: <20200531055607.1195536a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200531024452.GA82377@neutralgood.org> References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531033852.9c345a6b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531024452.GA82377@neutralgood.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZPcD0jPQz4JwJ X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.09 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.189:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.70)[-0.696]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.904]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.189:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 03:56:13 -0000 On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:44:52 -0400, Kevin P. Neal wrote: >Lawyers are mercenaries. They work in the best interest of whoever is >paying them. Actually I'm not paying my lawyer. Since my Money Bins are usually not that much filled as averaged Money Bins are, she gets the money from the German nation. She represents my interests against German government agencies successfully, we always won. IOW it depends on the system, as well as on the world view of the layer. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 12:22:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEA3333E5A for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zcqy2gtcz426X for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N3Kc6-1iwinc0qbS-010IhA; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:21:58 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:21:57 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Ralf Mardorf , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-Id: <20200531142157.fdaf5e10.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:kWxQYcSrqjEP+AgfXAcqfONOo01bomcEQCF0kj+DkBus6u3A4ZV 3dMp5rxZqmpFbLL6DDzK5YGGkoQAOxKSx+Buoy5u0LFLEq9XgPPkM72G+PJeNMyDib3tWcL TancLLYQ82Vp+eOUA7X05HYfCk5dOkGYoDip3OJtrwcMMRuvY3/nebZu0TawNEO6/JjE9Up CcaWW6hnli18klu95UkJw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:isGnuCNmasw=:+vJsItBJiw5R/UOYzVMPCg GoRnm3nFZW/ogT5Pmn1I/Oc1iLQ1tdAs+h6DToH8Ul7Q2Oxkn+K5Q2yFcrBU8J1DQP2emc4X+ Q47fF1chragyhwAb62Nv6L/qRLUZiXFQbb99y2tOmCvYy4366ynSWNBHFVW9VOBWYpnsViokj fdrCsTFIq+cV1F2WZz9paPzT4Y9/we/Qwp3ebsZ+fhP9Xha3BSV9+EXn+R+AKODNHJfcO2DLj LPY/c8gCidNhFkqMfjmZ8j5EXspxlJXS+j8zXnaiTZl254hJE7jh1yr+ZLW42jxgWVKaXcPnB QQQi07dqpZNIiyKq5UMJNeEOQHPr7CPib5IFg0raVehX4sdohhMdBIiKh7TvEKvlQFyU8rp0P OrlyGQ/E7YIsAlv0e994yJufNiDa733l9+APxRwdw+FTaFGfxrT+BcIpS7T1W2uYiaRWqi9t1 wl6HMHchNuOp710yqCSlzhP7zwd+A2ADsJZ6GMtlEoHt90PA677M1mowpl+dhQSh5MbC5XUx5 FEDEce+7drbnArXsXMX94RPXAZ2LzKjT8hEoEZIFylXdIyoYr3/7L2Boa4eagky12H4m8z7kD 2a5dPFbHbwzpsLNMUFl+PrXQrbcy+u8tYt0cbGCl3pLJwSXdpE7jvmdgCn4bEWxJxnp6hpJsj QbCGdzLsbnpyL5dr3PQwAAiTeZxwyWPJrTb0KEJHO+a2Tc2G0x7pc/46H0Q1seqmhHy5VjX3k Jpbbl1qHv8RfEYDCumnitM4jGBfDG7uuZI+7Zitsvf96DrK0LhnyFPKVh2LOolXgrECMwqlmQ RzItnWAM7V+S6MKurGYr0U526MxTW6a/rDakHjncL5ToqITBPrP3VYSYs80+EMOzSSPXhYp X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zcqy2gtcz426X X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.06 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.06)[0.060]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.040]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.56)[0.563]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:22:07 -0000 Allow me to comment on just one aspect of your message: On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:16:42 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Just a general comment on the "no top posting" "rule" that FreeBSD has no > one else has such a rule [...] It's not a rule, it's a recommendation, and there are valid reasons for this. In many cases, mailing list archives serve as a reference, and therefore it's helpful to be able to get the desired information from "the final message" which still contains the initial problem description. Less complex things surely can be discussed in a top-posting manner, but more complex things, especially those that discuss _more than one_ thing in _one_ message, really benefit from inline posting. And as you can see from my current message, I can even write something at the top, but not the statement that refers to what you said at the bottom of your message I am replying to. :-) > [...] and many mail clients do top posting by default > and make interleaving non-trivial (such OP's it appears). You say this as if it was something good... ;-) > Additionally > there is enough top posting being done on today's Internet that everyone > should be familiar with it and know how to read it in context. As I said, it's more _complex_ to read top-posted messages, especially those that do not contain reply headers and reply indentation. The "who said what" question cannot be answered easily, and you cannot easily follow a discusstion _thread_ with top posting. Others say it's unnatural, and just because some half-baked MUA started with top-posting as a default, it didn't improve anything. I'd like to leave those here: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Souce: http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html And: A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? I don't have a specific source for that one, sorry. > So we > might want to recommend interleaving but it should not be some rule set in > stone that will get any newbie flamed for not using it, talk about one way > to turn people off to FreeBSD quickly. As you can see from the mailing list archives, it is not a rule, and it does not prevent users from posting to the list, or from receiving helpful answers. It's just a common consensus, a thing that you can find in many communities, contexts, and companies: Some use tabs, some use spaces; some use 4 spaces, others 2, and others 8. Some use PascalCase, others use_the_underscores, and others typical camelCase. And where does the { have to be put? Depending on already existing suggestions, recommendations and standards ("rules"), if you enter a specific context, it's usually helpful if you try to adapt to the existing consensus of how to do certain things. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 14:04:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E3E335971 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:04:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49Zg6R2XgGz491m for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:04:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.241]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8916B4E65A for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 09:04:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531033852.9c345a6b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531024452.GA82377@neutralgood.org> <20200531055607.1195536a@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 09:04:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200531055607.1195536a@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zg6R2XgGz491m X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.07 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.241:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.071]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.967]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.93)[0.932]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:04:48 -0000 On 5/30/20 10:56 PM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:44:52 -0400, Kevin P. Neal wrote: >> Lawyers are mercenaries. They work in the best interest of whoever is >> paying them. > > Actually I'm not paying my lawyer. Since my Money Bins are usually > not that much filled as averaged Money Bins are, she gets the money from > the German nation. She represents my interests against German government > agencies successfully, we always won. IOW it depends on the system, as > well as on the world view of the layer. This is amazing thing: the government pays your lawyer to defend you from actions of the government. Amazingly unselfish government. In my word it is always the fight of interests. The government is as selfish as people are, thus does all to perpetuate itself (and the people in command), thus it works tirelessly to grab away people's freedoms, and the people (some of them) are fighting back attempting to give up as little of freedoms as possible. Gradually loosing. This is what I observe looking around, and this is confirmed (for me) by the fact that tyranny (dictatorship) is the most stable form of the government. Valeri > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 14:53:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CB6336CB4 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZhBk5Wbyz4Dbq for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:53:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 3Yq93V4VM1nd5951tughw3S4rwOx0lTLII9IwKrzjk6BvbQEs_YYQHfP9l2tUMo 44aAeq0KYwT7iV24zu0gJ5ltp8_vGI_sk5E3wTlxyCAIq6lYYSr4qIza11UcUuAJlKakUWmKYw_e kFsz3nTxui.0E.eCapjLrkE4gzppOdwqaHVaLs7PUTeZRvTHsRSdMBjvnt6iJiqzVsEw4sH1ABwT _eZZsnSHrXihWA66AAnCNIBp1GhDecQiY5GGnEGKtf05Uj_mlDRenfKZzrHBQt_kYY6KgMACM0qx 4g82NVjiiqYoV4DcpHwyxUMz57AH7CMJNkpHgPPFrC89CO9iDynyFyZrnN0_VFspPKf2jsrNYKxV usBW508htIC9Q.XwlHk.GWzSaoWkjuiAeCzCsf_bI0_KCEXWd8ICApks87fVcG9lqD9mKDfXCFlQ 5rU4NKDmxnTnV3DLt5C2DXItC2OIoSTXiTvFdw8hUU1VeSgtgv_k5MeqE_Uq0f6zCyHz.iBVKVPG D3rsHgoFvZNfL9VybLr7F8ZOKOdJ.ZF2JovWPVKCqVCnAdhOBvv2PshpmZkvhfq1fx4AsTS0Lsmg tSEOEydKWGQQC3goDTE2GIb_I2oL85m_BFW12eOwB6f2dAUOUpYWdDAIBjjASTnmrWydFzYLHshC tfNVZiVK1MDUuK32UZzqP4Q2AJ7vgB0g6vxL0XLQgVNHyRf_kcL4GM4GQQwP.HVp9RcDpVukajLP .dMijFxkVzhUXzEOAVa2jrNWAkRZuUH097NQr9h0Vu3bsM1hOMIz97zzIUothZS8EDU1n5GpTrMe kwbxTJ3CVH0AcWpmdc9oWC87HhecOSGO.i9A7ZL4PdQuPp2NMRTxnF_CUkYJ0VClx2QOklgiceqU HoDh7q_rQ6qLTQy5bQIPsqp90i52z.2_Z3iOhX5UmrS.w8XA6_A2YEldijtfWkeEA9tgRqqQClUq Tttoir6_6SV.3.pQrwXSW4xYKQw8_HGHJ5G9_VwkO4LysTYzDP_HXROomXE1fruUpnzA_Su2hi0_ fRwvZZQ9NNQUTlf3PXkLjx_jzgYwyfSAXxHhID01zv0tevRPJipGD16o2yA5ZcoELq1whR3xhgaX YH5kizmEiCQdh4BzibHECdcUlNqm0.GmOx4JzoSaGys8V.qejgaD8JhHQIMNN4RiD3RTr3gnKi4M ZoqpRf86VheAgMdWwtu.wK13EvekNeh36k377bxV8oI8VBiSW20wqjhz83.BhXwUu0SDwQwh1Svt 3LWqPieV4K9nNQ9Qy6y6JAg8Bq_5va5h6WKS47yXNzDSHdGjkPRvjxjDMZVlMI9s.2yuZC4dn1By 7kcabl_S0Gp_SqtwmKxi2j_SKKTsZvHSUOxSd6IbpFK7Rk9o6vmr5SN2NkJXuq01Hjj3e8SxBw1. AD.Zw2CFRmGwH9w-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:53:32 +0000 Received: by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4bdb01775f2ea98711e9fd86c7d76eeb; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:53:30 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 16:53:30 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-ID: <20200531165330.169b480f@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531033852.9c345a6b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531024452.GA82377@neutralgood.org> <20200531055607.1195536a@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZhBk5Wbyz4Dbq X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.81 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.042]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[87.248.110.31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.23)[-0.234]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.046]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[87.248.110.31:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:53:37 -0000 On Sun, 31 May 2020 09:04:40 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >On 5/30/20 10:56 PM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >> On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:44:52 -0400, Kevin P. Neal wrote: =20 >>> Lawyers are mercenaries. They work in the best interest of whoever >>> is paying them. =20 >>=20 >> Actually I'm not paying my lawyer. Since my Money Bins are usually >> not that much filled as averaged Money Bins are, she gets the money >> from the German nation. She represents my interests against German >> government agencies successfully, we always won. IOW it depends on >> the system, as well as on the world view of the layer. =20 > >This is amazing thing: the government pays your lawyer to defend you=20 >from actions of the government. Amazingly unselfish government. > >In my word it is always the fight of interests. The government is as=20 >selfish as people are, thus does all to perpetuate itself (and the=20 >people in command), thus it works tirelessly to grab away people's=20 >freedoms, and the people (some of them) are fighting back attempting >to give up as little of freedoms as possible. Gradually loosing. This >is what I observe looking around, and this is confirmed (for me) by >the fact that tyranny (dictatorship) is the most stable form of the >government. It's called "Beratungshilfe" and we can make use of it for more or less everything, usually to solve issues with landlords, employment law, social legislation, IOW more essential things, than disputes about ordered T-shirts. Actually we usually need to pay 15,-=E2=82=AC, probably to avoid misuse of "Beratungshilfe" for bagatelles. https://www.linguee.com/german-english/translation/beratungshilfe.html https://www.ag-oberhausen.nrw.de/aufgaben/abteilungen/Beratungshilfe/index.= php I guess at least a "Pflichtverteidiger" for criminal trials https://www.dict.cc/?s=3Dpflichtverteidiger is also known in a lot of other countries, even if somebody is guilty of setting a government agency on fire. OTOH in Germany we don't have class actions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action#Germany https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammelklage#Deutschland Apart from this consumer centers are not allowed to help against all kinds of companies. The German law has got pros and cons. Rich and famous people enjoy privileges, a well know example is Uli Hoene=C3=9F, the former president of German football club Bayern Munich. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 15:25:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F973337616 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:25:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lobo@bsd.com.br) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZhvF4JSPz4GcN for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:25:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lobo@bsd.com.br) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id d5so4347700ios.9 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsd.com.br; s=capeta; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HRYFUQyiVMY0aa7l9KBdH+TbZLCvvGdl8tVTKMJJ7NE=; b=M93Bca625t4xI2pNF+y5LszbJGvTZ/MZIG+dnRos67gmGRqGGXItYD6afaiehwPIjI ntwjdyXCbVEN3bJPeKxj1UB6nYoFsF+is/zTHrn1i7kbze8hDGg1GfporGkSOknbO8bQ hWLYZLmsf7CoREHH0/EYP30MnB0z6zVowDGqI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HRYFUQyiVMY0aa7l9KBdH+TbZLCvvGdl8tVTKMJJ7NE=; b=oq116qan6/BmbX8BM4SSIJPNbPb/GCNpI790PXQiEc3nW3QzYxRpMdpkb/K6Cusxze rQPwiYGDaNm9G+j6tLsSkobJXZAmEoWaLdd3i0rNhp+0t7rMI55e9mEsiFMDQtnDfiNI yVOHEIn3KLOO4JcOQ36hyVB8QaLcLIW0aT4ZCLWtg7Lf11XhaMQmkPVAoqwqV/Sqicv4 kb5r2ZSMGY+waM/AguMxgihVTGYT7VzVTtlyP9wvgGBq/T+1hTzZ0/NMbUZ82veWIJQt q/1j90yOwY49wk79nBBq8WWZp7equTL7Cv5jWoRs9F3vH1ZMTXQKLrdlNLuJF/hc78vK Y3NQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531sR3FhHy0dtHg68huziGKFKN/C0Rs+73zma9RtMCovjmwpGNIX foy1qEXaGKcejfq2S8/b1iICqsNGF/qPdv0vwtn2P8bcaA0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoDP0TzoP86i4YaK88EDjx0ZvAIvA7/uONljKTj7FW/TRrv+zSXtZwDWFS6NEV5PTvSCR9QSlDMvnSA+4NNcA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8d0d:: with SMTP id p13mr13919946ioj.133.1590938711835; Sun, 31 May 2020 08:25:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200530210930.986f7954.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200530210930.986f7954.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Mario Lobo Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:25:00 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sound problems. To: Polytropon Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZhvF4JSPz4GcN X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsd.com.br header.s=capeta header.b=M93Bca62; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lobo@bsd.com.br designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lobo@bsd.com.br X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsd.com.br:s=capeta]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.09)[-1.088]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsd.com.br]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsd.com.br:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.40)[-0.405]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 15:25:15 -0000 On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 4:09 PM Polytropon wrote: > On Fri, 29 May 2020 11:09:51 -0300, Mario Lobo wrote: > > The realtek mic doesn't work. I tried everything I could. The microphone > > sound goes out to the speakers, apps (firefox) detect a mic but its input > > doesn't go back into the system. So I wanted to switch the recording > source > > pcm6, so: > > > > sysctl hw.snd.default_unit=6 > > > > which yields this: > > > > mixer > > Mixer mic is currently set to 95:95 > > > > i.e., I won't be able to hear a damn thing, and applications won't > detect a > > mic. > > I had a comparable problem (not "mic not found", but "mic-through > can be heared, but it doesn't record anything, in no program"). > The solution was to set the gain mixer channels (igain, ogain) > to 100, and then it worked; maybe 0...99 = off, 100 = on? ;-) > > So maybe try setting all related channels to 100 first and then > see if you can reduce the level. In worst case, attach an external > hardware mixer to get better level control (which is what I'm doing > at the moment). > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > Thanks for the reply, Poly. Tested with this: Mixer vol is currently set to 84:84 Mixer pcm is currently set to 96:96 Mixer speaker is currently set to 85:85 Mixer line is currently set to 20:20 Mixer mic is currently set to 100:100 Mixer mix is currently set to 94:94 * Mixer rec is currently set to 100:100 * Mixer igain is currently set to 100:100 Mixer ogain is currently set to 100:100 Recording source: mic On these sites: https://webcammictest.com/check-mic.html https://www.onlinemictest.com/ Firefox finds the mic but no input back in Chromium doesn't even find the mic. The webcam works on both. Audacity doesn't record anything from the mic. Thanks for trying. -- Mario Lobo http://www.mallavoodoo.com.br FreeBSD since version 2.2.8 [not Pro-Audio.... YET!!] From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 16:10:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15193384DC for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 16:10:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zjvm4r59z4KrT for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 16:10:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [80.187.82.30] (helo=[172.20.10.4]) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jfQXp-0007Xd-Tr for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:10:41 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: Subject: IMAP && Server certificate has expired Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:10:40 +0200 User-Agent: Dekko/0.6.20; Qt/5.4.1; ubuntumirclient; Linux; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> In-Reply-To: <20200531132051.GA7974@c720-r342378> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 80.187.82.30 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zjvm4r59z4KrT X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.61 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.81)[0.807]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[178.254.4.101:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.986]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.01)[1.014]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[178.254.4.101:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.4.0/24, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 16:10:45 -0000 Hello, When I connect with the MUA mutt directly with IMAP to my ISP with: $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ I get since some hours: Server certificate has expired and the cert presented gives the information below. I can overcome the situation with 'set ssl_verify_dates=3Dno' in .muttrc, but I'm wondering what should I tell to my ISP as no information about his server (1blu.de) shows up in the expired certificate. Or is this because something on my OpenSSL installation expired? FreeBSD is an older CURRENT from January 2019 and ports of the same time. Any ideas? =09matthias >=20 >=20 > This certificate belongs to: > AddTrust External CA Root > Unknown > AddTrust AB > AddTrust External TTP Network > Unknown > Unknown > SE >=20 > This certificate was issued by: > AddTrust External CA Root > Unknown > AddTrust AB > AddTrust External TTP Network > Unknown > Unknown > SE >=20 > This certificate is valid > from May 30 10:48:38 2000 GMT > to May 30 10:48:38 2020 GMT >=20 > SHA1 Fingerprint: 02FA F3E2 9143 5468 6078 5769 4DF5 E45B 6885 1868 > SHA256 Fingerprint: 687F A451 3822 78FF F0C8 B11F 8D43 D576 > 671C 6EB2 BCEA B413 FB83 D965 D06D 2FF2 >=20 >=20 --=20 Sent from my Ubuntu phone http://www.unixarea.de/ NO to the EU! NEIN zur EU! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 16:23:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C5E338A49 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 16:23:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zk9w3p5Hz4M0B for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 16:23:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id j10so9028341wrw.8 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 09:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uyJIZ43UcEnkFXv/ishNgEVIQH3P0M9VNw6WmVqFftY=; b=XQWzHH47GWPnXkSvnqghhBHBia5bw4x90wxtjSGRGf+Q56gr7/YfEcHhiDM/LsoEcO +WGCVEW2nP/tF6LbJNvclEp8NSCdghweO4nEz0GvY17swLD6JE45PyRptInwPcIpjaJx ON5jafS7zyPx9JfC+YVJbqBr5/t9IL68ObD9KOAKpb4nsKd93TyVkymmmfLN5JUXHI0j ZZSiwLpD9Cb3f7e0E8W9CiqbEFOqB4xv/47GsiJ5m/MizYFgL7Q4kDXmIam22p6iMGNV opzthjclNYvbhh7X7MRGZbiVKruwKRPjlafaH/sxfurvPiMUdvi3Q69VmQug6NewdPOP EKfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uyJIZ43UcEnkFXv/ishNgEVIQH3P0M9VNw6WmVqFftY=; b=LCU7DlYF7SmEzA98oKYrFJ1gxh9hOLjIVr+wRXKpyoNLKUbCRrhrUequArL3HCev2M 3OLcESswdBzMQOoX4dky+V3oTt9MIVJHakkxnHgFB5BKD5EXtHgd8OVpZkv5PX2nIN0O vQpmO10LP4VEbovngMaYau9o700T2id0QujEUetKVsZGXz+Y/cB4S6RUEtZjUL+p8bBc Fx21hACmZVx8e+IL+sYxhNm6Px/7JGxmZP+zsoSxx5meSwpXo62WsEQzaZpD7R9MGBE8 Y5X0ZjkfGHedYLHm9EQKAyjBoSPnt44UC7D+7AKqGtV3qDs145ew1Fsv3NSeXjve5rzv Ec0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Tf8tDwltyBz/7f6Vyzs9ncgKBxxWBJ5PcqUo3VvITJEBW/B1B Ji5qIJhkfVW8JU218BzFEICs9OwXlF10ThBU7rvTCzoZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzeTOOCB/oPh6PzKI3cIG1x/B+f3MI9Rk1qh3niuSD034u1IxcKi2Z1T5A5BrlI+hRyyCOyd5bHLTeAbgW4ceU= X-Received: by 2002:adf:c98a:: with SMTP id f10mr6499009wrh.329.1590942178632; Sun, 31 May 2020 09:22:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:22:23 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: kernel module disable / blacklist To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zk9w3p5Hz4M0B X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=XQWzHH47; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::42c) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.35)[-0.349]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.44)[-0.439]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42c:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.30)[0.304]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 16:23:01 -0000 Hello world :-) I am creating an embedded system that exposes the serial port over USB. This causes auto-load ucom, umodem, u3g modules, even though I have removed them by hand. Because of the development steps I need to plug and unplug that device quite often. It would be lovely to be able to blacklist a given set of modules so they does not auto-load on device connect. `module_blacklist` in `loader.conf` does not seem to work at runtime. Is there a simple way to temporarily blacklist given modules? I would prefer not to modify the devd configurations because also I have a u3g modem in my laptop that I would like to use by default. Temporary blacklist should ideally have a precedence over devd. Any hints appreciated :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 17:12:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06CC03396EE for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 17:12:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZlGZ6rLgz4PrW for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 17:12:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: CyoHRxAVM1k51Aqkld4VVvF4FZrPrim9hf4k6LgFN3JJzdGF9kDCqg4T_D2Gt7g SZPSJa2Zk4YzDA7xm1Icydi3D00BJqlzqrJufuDbYGGyLm1J4sss08hajh77a.Dqte3TNBB9oXqo NGqazmkPe4joP.u4HN42Bk4RMjJKOkyKh9Vk9_StQDR4Set9Etw7Yt5_PSGwy4GihLzPKRYSy8gJ N3ipc5RiRuneztUm_g3JrrSafp.nZZnpxYy9DZoTjgJK3ub0Rb87WYYrUTBA4FBQAu_5qoUBaUBD fqZjyTJrehx1.50lmtuphHFTOYJaWPvY2rlGy9_MWUGIly.ZXBqOJNtE0YgwjhW1SOt7E3bDrnmJ vvwJDsQlWhCasyQu23hwZ6kzs33MoQq5J1yWe8faKYjV4EzeZPMYKsluDRpzFPSQbE2yeQfX4LQR kZXpA5ocNJcP.98D96im.Gf9K00BAtBxQh0s10GscNp_AROh1Qw7cyEyFQkUX2n_xhmYCdqhWUSC 3ff5JBD06QU.1jEhPlGyRqMXaVucSNNv.j2AVcCfK5JzJvIpWrr5TYxTMiRLKf7.ekINGcWJ_nkR nI_gfZqqmDa8otxKRiYqmJpZvLoztgQhc7iu9K3FeLORGSWJiwjunePLwnyFe1lGhcKf.zb6_rN2 BNvrSL_JpNdVmuIfBwpdz1UyVDpzONNeJAiFOxWS877jXZM8LMHhj4cA1BBkE5aXqyXlIVIhpSDx 0v5nMGH5joX.w9uerO6NwOOgNP_DT5YWogJSFBMsEvkCwkWWdSGnpvh7aWL2Ywx3m.RJyPiPooNc m9N6sr_Kh2iSYDSkS.z8tciGwaqA_HNxOr3DQaEDiZfJetObPz.kFltBs51boPRwred9uzVgfHFK .TIXQRy_Vr5QJ1k9vZMkmEM3G30zX8LdHCD7gUPIaDgRbJQk_GWX5Ho6btsaHugqO23qhzjUr3tl SfIHjH3PHiJk_0CfNt5ATigpBgiYn0ya1gyv1.5aY7rnM.UCi78OSgzVdY1mN3bQfHf.gjd8_Jcb 6lO5CyyybM9peXDR1rGQ7yY9jKaWFXsz_WMp2hJLvbXY2M4fqCNLU7eCTtY99kyivKTCOQ.GP2aS VUZ0tc84JyO8_eWmWrgy6a13AoMlUmM7Pu3Z8.t041sPhiC86xxUcpCXwDBL3T7v02rAn5liISy7 QuYs5sVSh9W4iClzr80jpdZ9BmolROQnIdmckG_n1rMEX9ysa9_uxctPgW28WLDgkNKV5NyZk.jR p0eWGFqnKrFcxrP.lGJL2GzDMzZheVygpVJucl.dFJ6.EpUCrQLJ9yUkLZPomhtVzP_c_.1zfS9G qM7D9lt.DZ7zStpE1NU56oEiF3DDj94eFpWMx99hOpaWNEn2AMcCf1aeW1DLhZh2cMeNMSHX_Qlf 4auSTqeLWHaZuqXQzwA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2020 17:12:04 +0000 Received: by smtp418.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c9e9f6d555e53ce94a3726d63a9cb1b0; Sun, 31 May 2020 17:12:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf1-f179.google.com with SMTP id g5so2336694pfm.10 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 10:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530l2W80ER2zFejqVz0q34QJXtHj3bepaaNlgEtqUYr4RWcZOEvj Khcqt1FKsw1qpwQxYF6BnLG8qxplyScmExRO+7U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRNyKRYvSxALrfga4NnMtmZorksipq+KKwb5ZlIUp/t6dG3uBPlB4ksWc9eSVJcKqZIqtPD4L97JVxYfY89Pc= X-Received: by 2002:a63:3449:: with SMTP id b70mr16726958pga.289.1590945120169; Sun, 31 May 2020 10:12:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200531132051.GA7974@c720-r342378> <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> In-Reply-To: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:11:44 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZlGZ6rLgz4PrW X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.35 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.07)[-1.074]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.016]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.187.146:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.562]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.187.146:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 17:12:08 -0000 On Sun, 31 May 2020 at 17:10, Matthias Apitz wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > When I connect with the MUA mutt directly with IMAP to my ISP with: > > $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ > Have you tried port 993? -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 18:08:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C16633A27C for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:08:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZmWZ1NWpz4T1R for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:08:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [188.174.48.26] (helo=localhost.unixarea.de) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jfSNj-0004rr-Ie for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:08:23 +0200 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.unixarea.de (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id 04VI8Mcf010917 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:08:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id 04VI8Mtj010916 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:08:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 20:08:22 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired Message-ID: <20200531180822.GA10779@c720-r342378> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200531132051.GA7974@c720-r342378> <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 188.174.48.26 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZmWZ1NWpz4T1R X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.19 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[guru@unixarea.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[188.174.48.26:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.4.0/24, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[178.254.4.101:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.44)[0.435]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.67)[0.665]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.79)[0.790]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[178.254.4.101:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:08:27 -0000 El día domingo, mayo 31, 2020 a las 06:11:44p. m. +0100, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions escribió: > On Sun, 31 May 2020 at 17:10, Matthias Apitz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > When I connect with the MUA mutt directly with IMAP to my ISP with: > > > > $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ > > > > Have you tried port 993? $ mutt -f imaps//imap.1blu.de:993/ gives the same problem: Server certificate has expired There is some rumor that other systems are effected also: https://support.sectigo.com/articles/Knowledge/Sectigo-AddTrust-External-CA-Root-Expiring-May-30-2020 but I don't know if I've to fix this locally or the ISP. matthias -- Matthias Apitz, ✉ guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub May, 9: Спаси́бо освободители! Thank you very much, Russian liberators! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 18:50:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E0033DEA7 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:50:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZnSb59Dxz3SMd for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:50:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 31176 invoked from network); 31 May 2020 18:50:48 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=79c6.5ed3fc88.k2005; bh=7hcc4F9WbV9M7v8Vkr5iNP82Bh6STYzrYO/Ao3ztclA=; b=wYAyu/Lx6vkL4Fjz8RNDM8zYmSt5N1Ek9D8iQ3ZZsS1QcPprSMhjPw9/923l8ctiG5QrdzrEIylsww6+qmykEWNjzz5Yv39KhL3VB/oHvPzcwXT8Z7cCx4epG0AtZWuoMA2E/UTuaJYCiiQiofisaRDU/nC5t4zsmvggyG7n9Yuk8rHQKE2aVf1/SpXJh6jcgbbFI4ioMy7FoyMYzvNu4pkc84vDTWTee3CRk50/kgQoHbjW+joGYhiaNATer3b0 Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 31 May 2020 18:50:48 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 41BB119ECF73; Sun, 31 May 2020 14:50:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: 31 May 2020 14:50:47 -0400 Message-Id: <20200531185048.41BB119ECF73@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: guru@unixarea.de Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired In-Reply-To: <20200531180822.GA10779@c720-r342378> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZnSb59Dxz3SMd X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=79c6.5ed3fc88.k2005 header.b=wYAyu/Lx; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.064]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=79c6.5ed3fc88.k2005]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com:dkim]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.661]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:50:57 -0000 In article <20200531180822.GA10779@c720-r342378> you write: >El día domingo, mayo 31, 2020 a las 06:11:44p. m. +0100, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions escribió: > >> On Sun, 31 May 2020 at 17:10, Matthias Apitz wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hello, >> > >> > When I connect with the MUA mutt directly with IMAP to my ISP with: >> > >> > $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ >> > >> >> Have you tried port 993? Try it yourself, same response. The cert on this server uses a Comodo intermediate certificate issued 20 years ago that expired yesterday. >but I don't know if I've to fix this locally or the ISP. It's the ISP's certificate, only they can get a new one. The sensible thing for them to do is to get a free cert from Let's Encrypt and set up your scripts to renew it automatically as needed, generally ever 90 days. That's what I do on my mail servers. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 19:41:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3724933EFAC for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 19:41:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZpZX4kN0z3Wpj for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 19:41:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MEFCF-1jnUil1GvV-00ADzS for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:41:06 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:41:05 +0200 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:A84m2uBGJDDGPUM8OdrTMp28jSiKnIThsa21t5mAR76nfPQUZ2I p0UyslP8XvbfL1Sfne/VSZfDszuPSpbNeJee/DrxzIICG2aOd8rzPv85lkcRc0RT9kLmTHx E0Kvzyt5PQ60EWeeATVeZnUhPGoeCNDtW8PG5WYt8BypuK1TK+0t8+SAh53+qnSYIJfwV6e eGYRKA6Gsf4mINqE2bhQQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ztB587apPnM=:KzYWn5qdn7qNXAQToN0UEa rj/6Mmpx1vfzd6ObXec/xZAPjFUzERbLdZt4oh3F84bzGJ+o+o/RDQSguhbWHXxoJI2l9mNVl cTHkBDvLy9wcFyHfiHCCdSXr/Jf98S9XD04N5EDlG/khwkFLkNlWk2JObBiADQvLkUlgFg9Mv 4DAL9JYt5hklQn/zFofgWMYCQpDCTX0DHYA8EJc0WKDdF8bUVOjcI1Oin2B6CFxZJ6/Ot86Og YSaZ/qw2RrAvBCPLlMcwaqtzg7PA+kae7p83537+GKpHjaE7G7sFro7M+khyazlXfWzqHVaGD 7oIAz72nerYwVCCHG/RYJGrGHoKlHAHBwkaikvMstWDPSNhjYwZAoitPtRot7S6XL6iHJE5Up /JC9F/dAXc+ZFwPEB5fwaMQLEt9S6xEMbF3jG7yryfaJF8C4EwblbE078s+CC0VB9a2sxooGt k2uYpV2g5BjYcJFGQ/6bPn4B9lmgMBjtgjDV1wcfvouBdCMMVRScWn25IdvLpkFmLdFpK/Z57 8jiBdeU/jYbaTT5NUjz322OFnW67MrnOraOOwwgTh2jLbbEhjV94kTKgQE7Mh1R1PUB456Tnw 4hZz7aQoCGtGprCSd3OJPJPHrNNjM5vGOhyUL0OxxY3CgixZqk0lWp4ZhENjs2dXp7+dXNBMv F4HGhN7EAx+4+nWRjxOYA+mgiJ299ED7RDIv8S7gNEex6sIPCwUXo31PalPI/UPxGiSxyKf4+ P4GQTWYZ2fEX4jS79KLNrg38r2MvzPdxivOtxQOCGUc8hzjg2PT1jrd69nw+0FUZEsnBkngFB PII3BDsgpTU3HIj1+NQwutSQFU6VTy/c0B78eG82StlVb6nFbKkp1FsnT9OsalbjsXdPlNt X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZpZX4kN0z3Wpj X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.75) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.30 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.97)[0.966]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.91)[0.907]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.02)[1.025]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 19:41:10 -0000 I have upgraded today a HP Pavilion DM-1 laptop (from 2011), and without any surprise, the OS upgrade went as expected, but on the application side, there are problems. The upgrade process has been performed as per the handbook, from 12.0-p? to 12.1-p5. I also reinstalled all software via pkg. Problem: In X, the mouse is no longer working. The keyboard seemed to be stuck; I added a "xterm &" to ~/.xinitrc to see something entirely new: When pressing any key, garbage appears inside the terminal, it changes font size and position on screen. I cannot use Ctrl+Alt+PF1 to get back to vt "text mode", so the only thing I can do is press the power button, and the system will shut down and power off properly. NB: "Keyboard" and "mouse" refer to the laptop's built-in keyboard and mouse. The graphics in this system is: vgapci0@pci0:0:1:0: class=0x030000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x98021002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]' class = display subclass = VGA I have installed: drm-legacy-kmod-g20200306 for the kernel module, loaded via /etc/rc.conf, as kld_list="/boot/modules/radeonkms.ko" and xf86-video-amdgpu-19.1.0_1 for X. I chose "legacy" because the laptop is almost 10 years old (but still in perfectly fine condition, it even has a new SSD inside). Also there is no xorg.conf file, just two component files in /usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d: keyboard-de.conf (to set the german keyboard, worked before), and screen.conf (sets the screen size to the actual hardware size, with the option to change this for an external CRT display if needed). This is exactly as before, when it worked. During boot, I get the following messages: info: [drm] Initialized drm 1.1.0 20060810 drmn0: ======================================================= drmn0: This code is obsolete abandonware. Install the graphics/drm-legacy-kmod pkg drmn0: ======================================================= drmn0: Deprecated code (to be removed in FreeBSD 13): drm2 drivers drmn0: ======================================================= drmn0: This code is obsolete abandonware. Install the graphics/drm-legacy-kmod pkg drmn0: ======================================================= drmn0: Deprecated code (to be removed in FreeBSD 13): drm2 drivers You don't say! That's exactly what I did! In /etc/rc.conf, I have kld_list="/boot/modules/radeonkms.ko" as suggested by the handbook. Further messages: drmn0: on vgapci0 info: [drm] Initialized radeon 2.29.0 20080528 for drmn0 on minor 0 Then, on the display, I can see the X desktop fine, with IceWM, wbar, even the xv-controlled background image appears, and the xterm, in which only garbage appears when I press keys on the keyboard. In /var/log/Xorg.0.log, I get the following message: [ 769.536] (EE) Failed to load module "ati" (module does not exist, 0) So I rebooted and installed xf86-video-ati-19.1.0_3,1 with the result that now the screen goes black. When I press the spacebar (or Enter, or the shift key!), I hear several beeps, and I expect the xterm (which I now cannot see) to fill with garbage as before. Now xf86-video-ati has been deleted. Why did X try to load it? Of course I also have installed ibudev-devd-0.4.1 And I have set kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=6 in /etc/sysctl.conf. The X log file is no big help. It looks as if it loaded VESA (???) even though all required components should now be installed. I'm obviously missing something important here. What could it be? Never touch a running system... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 19:47:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF83C33F349 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 19:47:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zpjl5mPkz3X2R for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 19:47:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id p5so3458291wrw.9 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 12:47:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=L46iZzwEHlVzl2xRlB8V3VtVlShyvyYn4HjSyyvqHyE=; b=Q4mIBQ69JIY0zcLOpYvV6aH9lWUD5+D/zhwTIn8F5b958ruB/GLPf8GBu6IvCpU760 7YtSJ+TKxaBnNLeqYN1KPD9gYM7hfi0FqNjOh2ESW0STf/Q5TMOO2/ChcVXxeqXY/X/d P1FcF8QmNdTCRH5HDsTYYFAOdnt7puhz82xuVXM/TsBIQcDmwpn8WzbqYUdz3CsqBy4x 0i2Y7INL+4SKXYmu5kCiF5vvNgoTrb3ysE9OOj80EN2Hwbz3nizJ63iO1YTnP69FzmOw xB2N7bHEI6sSKmQ1HTnWFfE+NyHjHApnCMZSGkAyeCK9oMY7R8sQcTH+osov3OQlLWVo VmYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=L46iZzwEHlVzl2xRlB8V3VtVlShyvyYn4HjSyyvqHyE=; b=MdB03ORRzrq7Vdx6RX8s7+f9agyyA2emj2zDwqZKNo34EALH+DUJ+tkM/eTxhNwc5j nk5sl1SvJ1rCiR4Ubmljxiq/98v+5tk3y08sSNe3KPMph/MSCMv14MDF2dwbtjz8lnvl i9l2gbuW8dINk1TtjafaMYEHfykbLnWG8wXPl8EiRAF8xzfXPmW2b9mowLbKcGoGYDgO 5Kmi45qWzQ8MMFO8tfQQJk7n2R680TJ9PP4xwY9u8H2n4CcrITZQc8CerpeUNmkMv+yp 7Zm9O21B8qlA0o2IiaPWRtuSXWehwoLqVh83vlOsQNEUhDfMXGkggqIT5xaddZa/qETf 2tSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339HdMFN6w7Znty2NAA8IP9xHPWWaiZW+ur9PXJJbnCsOCUY4mf joveuL0qGYD/kruMqm9HK3lzwFIM/Ft2sJRwG8oyM1YY X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwAT4cvKIKcNSyO+2Ypy+4LfL4pT/lAWKl5BeOQDpuKVMOh9Bl57VtgP6X9LqL/tGRjhmsdDP6S7IwGvYvaogo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1146:: with SMTP id d6mr18222546wrx.400.1590954442115; Sun, 31 May 2020 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:46:46 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: kernel module disable / blacklist To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zpjl5mPkz3X2R X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=Q4mIBQ69; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.35)[-0.346]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.44)[-0.437]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42b:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.22)[0.221]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 19:47:25 -0000 On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 6:22 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > I am creating an embedded system that exposes the serial port over > USB. This causes auto-load ucom, umodem, u3g modules, even though I > have removed them by hand. Because of the development steps I need to > plug and unplug that device quite often. It would be lovely to be able > to blacklist a given set of modules so they does not auto-load on > device connect. `module_blacklist` in `loader.conf` does not seem to > work at runtime. > > Is there a simple way to temporarily blacklist given modules? > > I would prefer not to modify the devd configurations because also I > have a u3g modem in my laptop that I would like to use by default. > Temporary blacklist should ideally have a precedence over devd. `service devd stop` for testing and then `service devd start` did the trick as it was the one loading modules. No need to blacklist a module, sorry, I was curious if there was such option in FreeBSD :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 20:22:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF5D33F67E for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:22:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZqVB2r5Zz3ZbT for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:22:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id x13so9454968wrv.4 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8CfVFujI1Z/1pn9WLf0F9VhFWkXS0LFW3WPZjA40ZUg=; b=MJyH4zHBCCuAPQ+DzQP2GpV/NWBOulxNrUYxrXK6LZ7QngsowhqkntIwUuFrSRISfU UtXu7W99GdgfOEjkmUPzgPsNyNl/XQCCWBT3unzU6TPanNy0DrZ0O3JseQDM/1GnQSip IC0bolcu00dbum/H4YaYZ8hrm4L0lbaeRwFRKTkjjOfFtlrqfBqUDxLFLMSLyN6P3WFV f65z1geJQYc79s4z6PyYeJpBqtdg2nCWmgXfSjpglRdX8LntqLXDqLiMpZS2iLikFnrW r/hFonpBHwEw5irOLGdkV9Fi6SdA69JqdCs5Y41gWBWfwgw3Cz1khNhqZ3TnpTZLm3uC EzUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8CfVFujI1Z/1pn9WLf0F9VhFWkXS0LFW3WPZjA40ZUg=; b=gQLP/ztAi28L9viu7+TtetXqw4n6Qqx/mgsv3y3652KTmDfpswkF8Yi/WEve0hAc1Q kW5o7a5os37F/zuUtL21qp9t5fWR4VB3p5da5uwjqEyMUZXas/LoeE/xW0Ld6WQdBSgE k35FMKg15TAj4dsWYCAcy0od/bqyBhH3pI1L3NtugHuNFKw6/bpySIL8HMXeAhAHaJTZ aVyBmBdgz4Allse+Hs7T12F6BVvAX10kvwcKrLqe8nNOkVSZkwTjRjzKTb8sKRMAT1UH nZ1DOGqzpPadkztZMClWRGJecuH5loFMKU0q2761eZ9VlIy0/4jQZOUfuVdH3d0hwYLD fPkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305VPVaJtjSWGmI04e3WRx0IxYspGXRl54YhBTfBTH27wMot9Ak YShxky0nbI4nW5xWbB2DlI+7Tlwzfr5Ax6l7oDdMHLVQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzRUbCPrJJ6fnn0o/bcFUAEtwN4OvZr7KbBqAuW2UxhpHlYS+yDTEwneXdmzk581ZgLF3z3yp+O0nBH4dSnv8o= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4488:: with SMTP id j8mr18108710wrq.242.1590956544742; Sun, 31 May 2020 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:21:49 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZqVB2r5Zz3ZbT X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=MJyH4zHB; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::432) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.028]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.965]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::432:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.36)[-0.357]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 20:22:27 -0000 Hey Poly :-) There were big changes recently in Xorg and video and input drivers handling in FreeBSD.. those changes mostly come from and are enforced by a Linux world and the hardware vendors.. not really much to be done about it rather than adapt (and the upstream development). I also experienced those problems with video and I also get the impression that input is a bit worse than before.. but it works now.. and if you search the history there are people with similar problems and solutions :-) Another upcoming solution for the Xorg issues may be Wayland on FreeBSD instead of Xorg. There also was quite a large mailing thread for that. You may take a look at Enlightenment as the Xorg but also Wayland enabled WM :-) Take care! :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 20:46:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4812F02EF for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:46:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zr1L6xgQz3c7q for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:45:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:45:57 -0600 References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8B745BDF-24B5-4CEC-8665-7C553B74B3B4@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zr1L6xgQz3c7q X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.08 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.47)[-0.473]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.17)[-0.166]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.12)[0.122]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 20:46:00 -0000 On 30 May 2020, at 20:16, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: > Just a general comment on the "no top posting" "rule" that FreeBSD has = no one else has such a rule It is not a rule per se, and it is not unique to this mailing list. Most = mailing list and newsgroups encourage trimming posts (as I did) and = replying in line (as I am) as it makes posts much easier to read and to = follow, especially when looking at archived posts. > and many mail clients do top posting by default That is because Microsoft decide this was a great idea and then many = companies and vendors wrote software that relied on top posting for the = CSR systems. When you are having a conversation type exchange it is much = better to interleave your comments. This dates back decades, and = predates Windows' existence. > and make interleaving non-trivial (such OP's it appears). = Additionally there is enough top posting being done on today's Internet = that everyone should be familiar with it and know how to read it in = context. The issue is knowing what particular part of a post is being referred = to. Imagine if that line was at the top of this post. Would you have ANY = idea what I was talking about? At all? But the tl;dr is that you follow the conventions of the group you are = in. If you go to a company that has a style guide for code, you follow = that style guide. Your format and comment code as that organization = decided. If you work for The New Yorker, you write co=C3=B6perate, = because that is their style. If your team is all saying jiff you are = probably going to need to start saying jiff. > So we might want to recommend interleaving but it should not be some = rule set in > stone It is not. But you will notice you get fewer replies if people see your = posts as hard to read. I know that I mostly ignore anything that is top = posted or sent with HTML styles ot attached images. And not just in this = mailing list, but pretty much across the board. O lee[ ,y computer in = dark mode, so when someone shoes yo enforce black text on a white = background, for example, I usually DELETE that post immediately since = the white background blinds me and affects my (poor) vision for several = minutes. So you are free to top post, but others are free to complain about you = top-posting. If you continue to top-post, you will get fewer replies. = But no one is going to come over and arrest you or fine you for = top-posting. > that will get any newbie flamed for not using it, talk about one way = to turn people off to FreeBSD quickly. That's your choice, but the standards for this newsgroup have nothing to = do with FreeBSD software, so that would be a very silly reason to stop = using it. But you be you. --=20 I believe you can joke about anything. -- George Carlin From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 20:59:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EAC2F0A06 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:59:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZrJg4553z3dHg for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 20:59:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: freebsd-update versions? Message-Id: <43710642-9E74-40DC-A50C-9DC0C9C4BED1@kreme.com> Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:59:14 -0600 To: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZrJg4553z3dHg X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.371]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.27)[-0.268]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.09)[0.087]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 20:59:16 -0000 Since there is not a way to see the available versions via the = freebsd-update tool, what is the recommended way to get access to a list = of what is available for use with freebsd-update -r? --=20 Passion is the pill you can swallow forever Taking them one by one One by One --Agents of Good Roots "Come On" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 21:11:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532022F1551 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:11:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Received: from mail.bsd4all.net (mail.bsd4all.net [94.130.200.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.bsd4all.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZrZM3Mmtz3g1L for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:11:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 23:10:58 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=gojira.at; s=mail202005; t=1590959460; bh=eoIJ1J1Os3FIwc52ZT/2U6LdyrxCBCFtFvnw3cmIHbs=; h=Date:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Ooihg43DWMiVleFd7F/rdjuuTl+tJauffqiSachCU4dOvsJyPQtT73Gzv6lEZIHO0 vBK1TA3nX04cpqq73y+fetEewybkGzZBQMb8vYOK1kIKRjYgYWdOhInr+mBeyAnzEm m7TL8aExF2JULcJtqHUV39+iXzxigDSq+767xtykVL7sF7yKhhQ/orfvyqiZEoUBmm bqxDnV+Z4gIYwp5SZ+B7ZFVVNnsmbwSlPWcXQuiB2aQB6/fAmLFRW44+MOjsVuyUEy hcEWXSGg+BW4pFQAvic3tLi5iOJu26iUDqqYSPGHzLerCXBrlKDHOw7s9D1tYw63Tb Gfcwrwx0KDWFg== Message-ID: <87o8q33j4t.wl-herbert@gojira.at> From: "Herbert J. Skuhra" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired In-Reply-To: <20200531180822.GA10779@c720-r342378> References: <20200531132051.GA7974@c720-r342378> <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> <20200531180822.GA10779@c720-r342378> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/28.0 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZrZM3Mmtz3g1L X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gojira.at header.s=mail202005 header.b=Ooihg43D; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of herbert@gojira.at designates 94.130.200.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=herbert@gojira.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.83)[-0.829]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gojira.at:s=mail202005]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:94.130.200.20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gojira.at]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.14)[-0.144]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gojira.at:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.23)[-0.225]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:94.130.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:11:08 -0000 On Sun, 31 May 2020 20:08:22 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote: > = > El d=EDa domingo, mayo 31, 2020 a las 06:11:44p. m. +0100, Ottavio Ca= ruso via freebsd-questions escribi=F3: > = > > On Sun, 31 May 2020 at 17:10, Matthias Apitz wro= te: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > When I connect with the MUA mutt directly with IMAP to my ISP wit= h: > > > > > > $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ > > > > > = > > Have you tried port 993? > = > $ mutt -f imaps//imap.1blu.de:993/ > = > gives the same problem: Server certificate has expired > = > There is some rumor that other systems are effected also: > = > https://support.sectigo.com/articles/Knowledge/Sectigo-AddTrust-Exter= nal-CA-Root-Expiring-May-30-2020 > = > but I don't know if I've to fix this locally or the ISP. Do you use libressl? openssl: Verify return code: 0 (ok) libressl: Verify return code: 10 (certificate has expired) -- Herbert From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 21:13:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3242F1669 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:13:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10007cb91cd.e6b4316694ce24915f5f61a8deccc039@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zrd349W4z3gLk for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:13:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10007cb91cd.e6b4316694ce24915f5f61a8deccc039@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1590959608; x=1593551608; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=ffHHAGzv7uwpRtyqIUM0QXJpDc0VKabx8VhMvIR4oow=; b=lRyx8q3JLwJVeQXEvw5N6v5oui4w8TY3h1tpcDAZPTUGmlif3EDQYQXnDQk2auC3yi/s2Kt1Q7rjSjDPLe2YGN49vpz6bJZUSCXCCN62lgwRFKoktnrumxu0+MDhLzuzaHIsyhNougaHqQ+zBmgmevL41LvvTmCxPWhF7tgfl48= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDdjYjkxY2QuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 31 May 2020 17:13:24 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 31 May 2020 17:13:23 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jfVGk-000Pc7-3W; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:13:22 +0100 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:13:21 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Ralf Mardorf , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-Id: <20200531221321.802962ddd909a8014e9310cf@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <626d9ab4-b00b-6112-8697-ea972eceb5b2@heuristicsystems.com.au> <8696720e-3c03-8ffa-6b2c-4c4c98772a49@FreeBSD.org> <20200531005421.8f845320.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531034231.5a6a7092@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zrd349W4z3gLk X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=lRyx8q3J; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10007cb91cd.e6b4316694ce24915f5f61a8deccc039@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10007cb91cd.e6b4316694ce24915f5f61a8deccc039@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.49 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.058]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.978]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.75)[-0.751]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10007cb91cd.e6b4316694ce24915f5f61a8deccc039@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10007cb91cd.e6b4316694ce24915f5f61a8deccc039@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:13:28 -0000 On Sat, 30 May 2020 22:16:42 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Just a general comment on the "no top posting" "rule" that FreeBSD has no Interleaved posting and trimming of context is generally appropriate in mailing lists and USENET where the full context is available to all but having the immediate context makes for very natural conversational reading. > one else has such a rule and many mail clients do top posting by default Top posting and retention of complete context is generally appropriate when the recipients are individuals and the set of recipients is liable to change as the thread progresses, a common pattern for internal email threads in many companies. The point being that it benefits everyone to adopt the appropriate style for the context which is why interleaved posting has been encouraged on USENET for longer than the Internet has existed but sees little use in corporate settings. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 21:16:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECF12F1AC3 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:16:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zrgz50YTz3gYC for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:15:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [188.174.48.26] (helo=localhost.unixarea.de) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jfVJE-000334-Co for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 May 2020 23:15:56 +0200 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.unixarea.de (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id 04VLFt6b012016 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 23:15:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id 04VLFtFp012015 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 May 2020 23:15:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 23:15:55 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired Message-ID: <20200531211555.GA11537@c720-r342378> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200531180822.GA10779@c720-r342378> <20200531185048.41BB119ECF73@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20200531185048.41BB119ECF73@ary.qy> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT r342378 (amd64) X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 188.174.48.26 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zrgz50YTz3gYC X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.40 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[guru@unixarea.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[188.174.48.26:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.4.0/24, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[178.254.4.101:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.65)[0.653]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.66)[0.657]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.79)[0.789]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[178.254.4.101:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:16:00 -0000 El día domingo, mayo 31, 2020 a las 02:50:47p. m. -0400, John Levine escribió: > >> > $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ > >> > > >> > >> Have you tried port 993? > > Try it yourself, same response. The cert on this server uses a Comodo intermediate > certificate issued 20 years ago that expired yesterday. > > >but I don't know if I've to fix this locally or the ISP. > > It's the ISP's certificate, only they can get a new one. Ok. > The sensible thing for them to do is to get a free cert from Let's > Encrypt and set up your scripts to renew it automatically as needed, > generally ever 90 days. That's what I do on my mail servers. What do you mean with "set up your scripts..."? I do not run any script (from my ISP), only the MUA mutt and fetchmail. Thanks for your reply in any case. matthias -- Matthias Apitz, ✉ guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub May, 9: Спаси́бо освободители! Thank you very much, Russian liberators! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 21:17:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B6B2F1CD4 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:17:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zrjp5RHFz3gqD for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:17:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MBSJT-1jqFUq2Mn9-00D0gR; Sun, 31 May 2020 23:17:31 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 23:17:31 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ba/dtjmvXlyUh4Ou8Jv7VHUyc4EiRaD8FhHPh3KSFeMXEqRL8rG DdXd2MDrpIi/+Ngjqd7CMi5hh5onu0qwTMiIMEP/L4QG57LREZ1Wnp17PkohQQWP39qt3DI 7AmqGQbnpt3GAb8ReO0VQtfOqV/L36ud1xjPIxZXCp0U2LeZwL/5gE1GRT61dYEBMm3DuLL kMOFwu/hWs5/QiQ8kwM9Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ERuuz8+DEB0=:uHqvfNUzRESEL1jKz43LiU xzFg65TzAZpDaJ4IR0ZJKFXRxKHEYh3rPQMCCVNXAUDSkRV/Bcv/1I6K3udRSQdAeuHa3lEEA P/31Iqiyzx2AMHFpOmHRC3uxSWVm7ZHJ/RRUKepURoxR0MlhqGfg2YB+JJ3KFTFGEts4jVFcd xjwZIz8NlN72y5eGOk1TrDPBGhZ421r7kj+qTrTPb6ZzAyMBeSWk1d49fBFmoecJojT9S/2eW D2lXshR/wltsAYmddXvo8W2wiMCk5jCEcqBqPk6z3g+Vks2CSKlI4MDEbVLR8mV/PL2gLfXz+ eGYcxzXBJexnQ9mXQ98+LBpaXrS0TpamTseTS/mxSOlkd4YBb7Qnb1V45CT7Vgw+6fPLQvqqE ZvyxOo7mGeRJoVMfSO6VOcpHyr9br2UsisGa87wZiQFVEr5gpqd9FTpDU6n0zNzcTJT4iqs9x TC5xjItbFZhKv+34JutHKvUVQfDoDNp64WKaUWh/8VQey05S48nlBh3QRRG6kJ9JqkC5h4Aay zkuMyS4yQBxZrLSaPSkfhko8e08kG8NCclZ+uCuOSaK7b8S/B3ia75dovufkAJDF/PmhlP5jw IOx3zmjSt9UFTnn8yQ9RTE0rkXqFo5RrAVoCV5lrwyXA2oPBJWVpf1N1hHEfKTTm8SO4XVy3u mqV4cGNP7zFFBtFo/BKGvK4UAQcJCrGQ0+Trv8qteQ/6Fssaw4iYmKnyZijpYdIRUMMRO6n6g 1GFu+N+CVaIkqZ2w01OvR/du/qLivXKSrFkENqxXfCsuVKoWHGD+nshFgtv+ZiopFMWSbHIXU l6nIvPYVenCC/6s8tOIQc17iPSeKmLyxhT3iHil61Z9iiMTXQBW/kGSO2Fuyd7c1uNk863I X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zrjp5RHFz3gqD X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.40 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.51)[0.514]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.47)[0.471]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.02)[1.016]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:17:36 -0000 On Sun, 31 May 2020 22:21:49 +0200, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Hey Poly :-) There were big changes recently in Xorg and video and > input drivers handling in FreeBSD.. those changes mostly come from and > are enforced by a Linux world and the hardware vendors.. not really > much to be done about it rather than adapt (and the upstream > development). I also experienced those problems with video and I also > get the impression that input is a bit worse than before.. but it > works now.. and if you search the history there are people with > similar problems and solutions :-) Here is what at the moment (!) works at least for me: I first verified the system has installed libinput-1.15.4 xf86-input-libinput-0.29.0 and it is not running HAL or DBus. I then tried ~/.xinitrc with the addition of setxkbmap -rules evdev -layout de and removing /usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/keyboard-de.conf. _That_ probably was the correct thing to do, at least here. Now keyboard language has to be set on a per-user basis, as it seems... terrible... Let's see what stops working with the next update, and what five new ways of fixing it temporarily will emerge. ;-) The "xinput" command shows both mouse and keyboard correctly, even though it uses ugly "graphics characters" where something more ASCII would have been sufficient. Yes, nobody pipes program outputs anywhere today, people just want colorful screenshots. I have no idea what to say... > Another upcoming solution for the Xorg issues may be Wayland on > FreeBSD instead of Xorg. There also was quite a large mailing thread > for that. You may take a look at Enlightenment as the Xorg but also > Wayland enabled WM :-) That would be no problem for me; hopefully other applications intended for use with X will soon be ported to work with Wayland. The current situation is definitely not in line with the decades of "it just works" experienced on FreeBSD... :-/ Sidenote: It seems that there's still something wrong with the video driver that X has loaded. It's probably still VESA... while "xvinfo" reports Adaptor #0: "GLAMOR Textured Video" and "glxinfo" states AMD PALM (DRM 2.29.0 / 12.1-RELEASE-p5, LLVM 8.0.1) (0x9802) I can get only 60 fps in "glxgears" (5600 on my old home PC from 2007). The user is a member of the "video" group. Sadly /var/log/Xorg.0.log is far from usable to easily determine which graphics driver has been loaded; [ 996.700] (II) LoadModule: "ati" [ 996.701] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module ati [ 996.702] (EE) Failed to load module "ati" (module does not exist, 0) As I mentioned, installing the matching package leads to a black screen. All that can't be normal... too many moving parts... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 22:02:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184342F36EB for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:02:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZsjS0nYZz42KK for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:02:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id f185so9497813wmf.3 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:02:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0ebILtGVYSK7uplnrnwhqXK7g11Tx+kFE1tLH3/SpL0=; b=TVW0KN3QYoQG0e+Gk+/G8M7Ovd4voOOmNswaBrDhiGEVOJ3/AhSAWxhvyigcUgL7o2 XBfCE9WfHEeT1W0vNXPDpv8FQ6oJ68enNa794RBgjuhXxKe23L6BNEXNXDr0GD2xc/pk HED8IHbD35iK+2mU2VRfk0tJ5oMBSmjkt3uLzg+KprajiRNHWp0p/zEUiwfKUMvAZpE/ R1TNXBbUhWjbMmRvnvdamkDBvf2ET5UIhTgpRKZ0xUgMtzjq/gpuLgQmfBfUt6Sm+JOL c8tSwHy2DZccEFKyXpkXZmwwcLnWflEEBbGoeTgWfBbXd6x5Xzv3AteyhzmDjmHY3O5K XpsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0ebILtGVYSK7uplnrnwhqXK7g11Tx+kFE1tLH3/SpL0=; b=DSvo0XwNjBYRYIgfezk2ebdeK9+MBwoqxilYWU+V4gbBYyS1Es2IZoB5rKJuxEPTip i8XTFCuwj+HAlHBSYEfkSz6euHY2THOX+ofVU+41MFEFUvwlJh9QPHmzkekNW+aoEhti T7KX155gfJI1pE0vipnpWrKFmdFMSgLWuxnKLepEdmZFLf9vqnR6/y57cUyuB4rrc855 nPfTBh+lDLjCIGcphBAVbWk4v4Bsddl89JJLrE72H2R0cfPcA+L050B+msluBiBPWzsA I+ilvkdXkcIayKS9dixrMFjiXGcaWvaUyDeiNjs+vRus2O5HAgBHFMU4ukxSF3LKLBvQ Fjig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336x/uXs0MsiB9gDv3m1uGHzFxQiXoorQVDhSMIt6mOhCHz5TQq Y+1Mx5zmYX1y15yW/KlGxc+fkoQcoXfh6ELR5hwr5m54L+8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRvRPb6+VCfzs5aY96CkahpW0vVMOVJb6cV2h6+0eVFL922i22r/B9l4xt4pdtMBrEe6y9DXFfurWTF4VYZIA= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a943:: with SMTP id s64mr18475774wme.103.1590962538359; Sun, 31 May 2020 15:02:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:01:41 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZsjS0nYZz42KK X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=TVW0KN3Q; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::32a) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.016]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.959]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.380]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:02:21 -0000 On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 11:17 PM Polytropon wrote: > (..) > All that can't be normal... too many moving parts... It is what it is, "change is good", "software development is about enforcing changes", etc ;-) Long story short, the new way is to use evdev / libinput and the drm-kmod + modesetting instead of old ati / intel drivers. Xorg modesetting should autoconfigure for you. You may try the old drivers with the older hardware but I found them problematic. New ati driver is called AMDGPU and you also need to install firmwares package. It works for me on desktop with RADEON RX580 with some tuning on UEFI. On laptop I use Intel drm driver. I also use hald and dbus. https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 22:11:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932032F37D1 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:11:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zsvr0R6mz43KF for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:11:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mj8eD-1j1Fk81WCr-00fEy5; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 00:11:17 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:11:17 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+KgvJ/QJ4EtfKr8B8d57ER+sm8nOKekHZpfbNj98Sxt5OX8q2Ds jfVCJzczck3VryuCeX5AhrBjlu1ZMXOY9YvBbnnu6V7ZHD97dp7I3g0hD1fHB8rUWLUGeeW hi0S0TMqw9+Iu1vyCP/QQumf/sSi5PwNMWd83OltbmgyyubqImIXpZTrG/4jOmUxfjrQzjZ T7DCHuGR1zrUR8OeO4ZrQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:s6ILchRPQDs=:18v0ipUIz2QiFMOjE416zg ugv6ItgIPZkoOr7pdSdxzYLLSFTe/VU2dXSK7kPTgQOMn698h+MN1aO0Yrl0moB0I8JTJSy+A x+S0jEGrSNhb5Cc0Q5OvMep1SwIdrJWVgraGdFvliUFftKasUAzz1pbxfWWkbQn/uaLQSX+J5 Q0YuPhXhqHFJcA30KcywvELj7kPmQribBjJZDpqhH/hkJdUhvkgKrGbk/1/IRJuwva5fdJOQ9 0swa7bUZ1u3WYfHXLaUy057f3Ar0RhDsEoVfQBpO8BaxpRs9NF9tYmxujaBq9HRSS0fuwQy3v bNBxnWV68e9WObmX8P3a5JKAkopQzZ7fkGVavvRBtH0g8aEVxXcdwMe2Uxcp5nPChe1QrjnCT /9iKlsSycDX1q2ceqElLS+GruZ+CUAsa+0f6bWdxBH65GCd8cNAPxtEeegSuOo8R6Lmqmorq8 TXy6IT/JSzp2TSbV6JchuOblGlurLhu8t9+h7dPFSBd6vjMOaBN/+GqJrFNsT2w7C99/8PPM3 L9ZcKP4twq+4/S7zPiwQ4LPL6+fcb+hCazpq44zrRduQawrbPIuCP8cxrUlKIrBrnI3VHRbOX gXhCblyGP/Q4gnlufG1WNpcl+cIeUM6MlcUiQT2h75S+IXCnG+Bf+hfrA6LxKuP1F5puBYLsO bBLhXWHo8JkG2usv4rzP3dCv1VFos/iCV5HV9hrs5ZNR3vQ2rcuSAzxTZDivl1p/mxmJF38cp ILdmi+lZCRRRRubYNTUg/f6d4TGcxtYg5+pMGV0wuwO/QAIdJTWE6Fcc1zAkbTIh9Kq04k0H9 FHDbB2uRicsmfiSZHabptALjWShDLHFLf15b8Z52O0HONq6G4seZ/Hoe5z64iaLebbCulCk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zsvr0R6mz43KF X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.31 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.47)[0.468]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.43)[0.431]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.01)[1.012]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:11:21 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:01:41 +0200, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Long story short, the new way is to use > evdev / libinput and the drm-kmod + modesetting instead of old ati / > intel drivers. Xorg modesetting should autoconfigure for you. What is the correct driver for X for "modesetting", and how can I easily verify it has been loaded? > You may > try the old drivers with the older hardware but I found them > problematic. I don't want "problematic", I want "it works", and it doesn't matter if "new works" or "old works"; FreeBSD has been able to deliver "it works" for decades. :-) > New ati driver is called AMDGPU and you also need to > install firmwares package. I will try this tomorrow, sounds interesting. I'm still not very confident with using the new termini technici correctly. Thanks for the pointer. Strangely, I have "amdgpu" comments in my configuration files... > It works for me on desktop with RADEON > RX580 with some tuning on UEFI. The HP dm-1 is 10 years old, it doesn't have UEFI yet, and its BIOS / CMOS setup doesn't have too much choices (compared to, for example, a Lenovo Thinkpad from the same era). > On laptop I use Intel drm driver. I have a Lenovo R61i where the Intel graphics works well. Still only 60 FPS in "glxgears", but that's probably normal for "desktop graphics"; it plays Descent=B3 though. ;-) > I > also use hald and dbus. Accepting outdated Linux stuff to make FreeBSD graphics work again doesn't sound as if it was the right thing to do... ;-) > https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics >=20 > https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix Many many moving parts. :-) --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 22:16:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F308B2F3CC5 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:16:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from smtp10.server.rpi.edu (gateway.canit.rpi.edu [128.113.2.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "canit.localdomain", Issuer "canit.localdomain" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zt1m3YxNz440B for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 22:16:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from smtp-auth1.server.rpi.edu (route.canit.rpi.edu [128.113.2.231]) by smtp10.server.rpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 04VMGQ8Y068552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 31 May 2020 18:16:26 -0400 Received: from smtp-auth1.server.rpi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-auth1.server.rpi.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CB95805C; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.113.125.55] (calyx-55.net.rpi.edu [128.113.125.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drosih) by smtp-auth1.server.rpi.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B41C358032; Sun, 31 May 2020 18:16:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Garance A Drosehn" To: "Matthias Apitz" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:16:16 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> References: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: outgoing, @@RPTN) X-Spam-Score: 0.00 () [Hold at 10.10] HTML_MESSAGE:0.001 X-CanIt-Incident-Id: 032Jygq06 X-CanIt-Geo: ip=128.113.125.55; country=US; region=New York; city=Troy; latitude=42.7273; longitude=-73.6696; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.7273,-73.6696&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: outgoing X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.230 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zt1m3YxNz440B X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rpi.edu; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of drosih@rpi.edu designates 128.113.2.230 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=drosih@rpi.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.07)[-1.075]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:128.113.2.225/28]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[128.113.2.230:from]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rpi.edu,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.523]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:91, ipnet:128.113.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 22:16:30 -0000 On 31 May 2020, at 12:10, Matthias Apitz wrote: > Hello, > > When I connect with the MUA mutt directly with IMAP to my ISP with: > > $ mutt -f imap://imap.1blu.de:143/ > > I get since some hours: > > Server certificate has expired > > and the cert presented gives the information below. I can overcome > the situation with 'set ssl_verify_dates=no' in .muttrc, but I'm > wondering what should I tell to my ISP as no information about his > server (1blu.de) shows up in the expired certificate. Or is this > because something on my OpenSSL installation expired? FreeBSD is > an older CURRENT from January 2019 and ports of the same time. > > Any ideas? >> >> This certificate was issued by: >> AddTrust External CA Root >> Unknown >> AddTrust AB >> AddTrust External TTP Network >> Unknown >> Unknown >> SE >> >> This certificate is valid >> from May 30 10:48:38 2000 GMT >> to May 30 10:48:38 2020 GMT There is a cert from AddTrust which expired early on Saturday. I believe it was the cert for certificate-authority named USERTrust RSA. This shouldn't have been a problem, because there is a newer cert for that same CA which has not expired. I do not understand all the details, but apparently there is a bug in versions of OpenSSL which are older than version 1.1. If the older (now-expired) cert is known on some system, it is used instead of the newer cert. And therefore that cert, and every cert which was generated by that CA is also considered invalid. This problem hit us at RPI on many Redhat systems yesterday. I also saw the problem in Mail.app on some of my older MacOS systems, but Mail.app does not have this problem on MacOS catalina. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu Lead Developer @rpi and gad@FreeBSD.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun May 31 23:02:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A582F4A9B for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 23:02:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Zv2J3HX5z47jS for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 23:02:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id u13so9032415wml.1 for ; Sun, 31 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iMHGWz3n1aXkqiaiJ/qyre4KbTCmrnH6h7YIQlxwJc4=; b=LDiWB3l+ofpKcAB6c0VFabbQmUPs7ApQGzkqb5RtDXLZPSxZFpKOwVXaX1TiMPvosP D+SxFw7qfzl6Iry1Nf8hQ7IrGS+oJOpzbCWbgqE8v/U1n8y+UmjCzZnv97Htf3jOd5JJ LwVxiE1jI2Adk1PS864Cd0XyxEnPBZTlJB5R2JHI4+T4BYR4z4l1j9wPuXDCN4siVcPG Mmewt9Kn36wHR52owZt/7Sv4vTqh5E6bgPJ3bHa5zZRzoWhiYgWQzRVDJHNvKYD3x9Vw sy9FujHtGATa424IDzxrwUQ7ZgNbGtmCEfxjPCYu5LT5KS/5xR5CjpduJnXS6Ht6LRbS CV3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iMHGWz3n1aXkqiaiJ/qyre4KbTCmrnH6h7YIQlxwJc4=; b=cpyVWT2gjYoPwj5w5pZwyMTKkp82obt8O5aE3+hBDhWXhbtHYt3Z3DOX/FzAB+HJYF lCXqSyE6u475nfH5eaObUAMUC7t5uoj1l74LUTixkQMG1Ro0j7XnluVEPypQ0DRxmU9v f5HQGEKCCl4eAZgXBslqwm0beOHyhKKlhhUyISMXs6zb8zE4SAtuqrZQI77ObDt1t3H+ thdFpsJv4LnIR9Gy/E1NIsmAinrsT9vQUs4RuIanV2bndWQzb9wMiCwxEaBtwoyrOZKW VD1yxT19rM0AX4dNfCsSFS0OVi6I5nLmiv0vdmnjQfYdrRRSRo68vXUNwwZkvCZJuwbH aXPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wQK4PCxO0gZDolftnn4nOTP0PaRG7Oqzykbu/MWXyJbFb8aCY zIX8RMCg+KwPeY8TE3nLPF3ZJ8XfWkoTyhPCNphTUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwzR6LbZOliP/1eAmxrXANAjA+lUJPfjwUhy+9dvPwRsVxEC7UxqhPLfxtDHUR5uGQ0pUa7HU9uqfNDPNwZJ9Y= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cc82:: with SMTP id p2mr18663001wma.101.1590966118556; Sun, 31 May 2020 16:01:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 01:01:22 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Zv2J3HX5z47jS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=LDiWB3l+; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::333) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.029]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.964]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::333:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.44)[-0.445]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 23:02:02 -0000 On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 12:11 AM Polytropon wrote: > What is the correct driver for X for "modesetting", and how > can I easily verify it has been loaded? It is part of the Xorg I guess. Make sure you are in the video group. Use no config launch startx and it should auto configure. Well thing changed a bit and we just need to put some time for that to work no other way ;-) > > You may > > try the old drivers with the older hardware but I found them > > problematic. > > I don't want "problematic", I want "it works", and it doesn't > matter if "new works" or "old works"; FreeBSD has been able > to deliver "it works" for decades. :-) Well there are some issues but I moved away from macOS to FreeBSD looking at the direction of global changes and the way it goes does not look promising. Seems like we are the folks to "make things work" now. BSD still seems to be "the rational island" in this "sand castle world" and I can clearly see that I also need to add my bricks to make it work well thus my focus here :-) > > I > > also use hald and dbus. > > Accepting outdated Linux stuff to make FreeBSD graphics > work again doesn't sound as if it was the right thing to > do... ;-) Yea, but this is my _work_station_ so my main focus is to get the results in a shorter and shorter time spans.. not always I have lots of time to play and fix things anymore.. the world gone mad :-( After I finish a bigger project around August I will get back to E + Wayland on FreeBSD. I am working now and testing the new EFL+Enlightenment (still in Xorg mode). The E community is very helpful and responsive that also use FreeBSD and sometimes offer patches really quickly. Still some work to make it production ready :-) > Many many moving parts. :-) "Change is good" man "root is obsolete" why do we even need those computers ;-) ;-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 01:03:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403452F6CA8 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 01:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ZxkB0ZF7z4Hg2 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 01:03:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 81248 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2020 01:03:12 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=13d5d.5ed453d0.k2005; bh=P/YA1iqAeCbYPiaZbUx/EV6+4WfYYTenXxZFsSqHd/Y=; b=Q3n2S31oeOlP8/e0uVzmbTQLby+yaQwassbEwfGgBf+5AWrb76GNlWTasKrGiIMXTl9zWmeXTl5dYnfas0hi8fTfMjPcQJ5kwDRA4x7ZuS+BUoAigjLK2ZHzhnGdWAFMslgRsIolAagCtusYNjf37IAlcIHLmKAo+5kYLpao/fjbAHnGc2bBvgPznG07JgBnTnTSZmy6saRX1Nku1lcUh0IPN5con6rqDImydh6HXT20nb0hIz7qbJBOxfMYqVVv Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 01 Jun 2020 01:03:11 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C2AE919EF731; Sun, 31 May 2020 21:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: 31 May 2020 21:03:11 -0400 Message-Id: <20200601010311.C2AE919EF731@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: guru@unixarea.de Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired In-Reply-To: <20200531211555.GA11537@c720-r342378> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ZxkB0ZF7z4Hg2 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=13d5d.5ed453d0.k2005 header.b=Q3n2S31o; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.46 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.063]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=13d5d.5ed453d0.k2005]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com:dkim]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.985]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.911]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 01:03:15 -0000 In article <20200531211555.GA11537@c720-r342378> you write: >> The sensible thing for them to do is to get a free cert from Let's >> Encrypt and set up your scripts to renew it automatically as needed, >> generally ever 90 days. That's what I do on my mail servers. > >What do you mean with "set up your scripts..."? I do >not run any script (from my ISP), only the MUA mutt and fetchmail. Sorry, I meant set up their scripts. Again, this is the ISP's cert, only they can manage and renew it. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 07:31:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE9A32CA86 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 07:31:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from p-impout001.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net (p-impout002aa.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net [47.43.26.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49b6LM062Yz4JgN for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 07:31:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from localhost ([96.28.177.163]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id feuxjWiGXv4w0feuxjILS2; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:31:32 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=KaesTjQD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:117 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:17 a=HpEJnUlJZJkA:10 a=ceHJ1wc0exqcN1DEbdQA:9 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:31:39 +0000 From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org CC: Doug McIntyre Subject: Re: Documentation and debugging for NFSv4 References: <20200522182635.GA4515@geeks.org> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfOraZunFKxNOxyE7i7E+Q2Ma0BKwLMy5F6wzsBo0Z4kNfDEIWvkaPAWZU+YWcYx+L+B+HmqVdhwSedJe5xtYSijXv2KsJ1If2VTYzccITae+lg1O2Znq oprbB1/NjRYeT+Q6pJ0NyrP716pvkjldrW0mSL6cy6M4G0fIT5qTFl7vRLVBzKiRgENAwc3viMOq7FJrVX0tsANcgymQlIDANog= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49b6LM062Yz4JgN X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mueller6722@twc.com designates 47.43.26.133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mueller6722@twc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.99 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.736]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[twc.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:47.43.26.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[twc.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.12)[-0.120]; MISSING_MID(2.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.36)[-0.357]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:40294, ipnet:47.43.24.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[twc.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[96.28.177.163:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:31:40 -0000 from Doug McIntyre: > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 03:15:01PM +0100, Norman Gray wrote: > > I'm having difficulty finding consistent documentation and debugging tools > > for NFSv4. Is there some handbook-like source that I'm missing? Or some > > layer of documentation for configuration or debugging that I've failed to > > find? > I think in general, that NFSv4 is not widely deployed outside of > hetrogenous linux environments. Given the state of things, I'd imagine > it is downgraded to NFSv3 more often than not in other use cases of mixed > OSes. > > Normally some combination of netstat and tcpdump would make some headway, > > but SunRPC is blacker magic than that. > NFSv4 is a big change, most implementations I've seen operate over TCP instead of UDP > whereas TCP was optional in v2 and v3. NFSv4 doesn't need rpc portmapper, nor > other helper daemons. The IDmapper is a big change as well, no more UID passed > through, but all UIDs have to be mapped back and forth on both sides. > Make sure you use V4 definitions in /etc/exports. From what I > remember even connecting as a client needed 'V4: /' in there to > connect right to a linux NFSv4 server, but I could be misremembering. One question has bugged me, how to set up /etc/exports to be able to export by either NFSv3 or NFSv4, without having to have two files and copy to /etc/exports every time you want to use the other (NFSv3 or 4) protocol. I believe an OS that does not support NFSv4 (such as NetBSD) can not mount_nfs when the server is using NFSv4? Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 08:45:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89BE32E660 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:45:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49b7zb6qqSz4Qg5 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:45:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5179F28568 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:45:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1591001123; bh=ANRNQSYxXmgqTXc1yYLjDMM2ur4eZgM3oW2cMqeVS7E=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=exeKy+i4axAv/4tjkmKYfdYOfaAdjQhJsEHFQ+zMuD9GCd6AOxLT+y/wpVDe8taYo 2Eztur1sM+QeotmYXjo/EI7FEg+GbOBxd6bhO8K/gGtutwpeYkh7iVVgsgSctSeep2 NG6veYpjb4iXZ3Bd86u/MdAVCNVlLfkghYOxA1Bg= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C175F28567 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:45:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1591001122; bh=ANRNQSYxXmgqTXc1yYLjDMM2ur4eZgM3oW2cMqeVS7E=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=4wnj1fCLlsnm6QTRClI+U88sCh9NStIsWbvLl178rv3f1DQQ/W3KvhxjLh8j+qcrH HZnvj1XzfKEvzvdSpFowzhDGkRB5XeR2Liirs4cksK70PG8uquu8/xR3o6wEOQNDcq BmnXCd0AtW7wiqUd3O/qe1XdZwtyhVQS+FpJa0+s= Subject: Re: 7ZIP Windows question To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <56263fa6-a3fc-ffbb-9f78-732e69b94b8d@irk.ru> From: Jos Chrispijn Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:45:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49b7zb6qqSz4Qg5 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=exeKy+i4; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=4wnj1fCL; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.001]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.09)[0.089]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 08:45:33 -0000 On 27-5-20 20:01, Yuri Pankov wrote: >> Problem is the following: Somebody sent to me the archive with files >> with Russian names in 7Z format. I used the p7zip from both ports and >> packages to extract it. Result was the same: Some files were not >> extracted with diagnostic "Too long filename". Try to rename first from within the 7Z file (so check content of the 7Z archive by overview, rename the file(s) and update the archive. Best, Jos From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 08:47:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17ED32E8C8 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49b81R4QDFz4QnJ for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:47:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [188.174.56.132] (helo=localhost.unixarea.de) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jfg64-0000gG-I5; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 10:47:04 +0200 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.unixarea.de (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id 0518l3hm004280 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:47:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id 0518l3wD004279; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:47:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:47:03 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: John Levine Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IMAP && Server certificate has expired Message-ID: <20200601084703.GA3913@c720-r342378> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: John Levine , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200531211555.GA11537@c720-r342378> <20200601010311.C2AE919EF731@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20200601010311.C2AE919EF731@ary.qy> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT r342378 (amd64) X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 188.174.56.132 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49b81R4QDFz4QnJ X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.82 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[guru@unixarea.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.11)[-0.106]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[188.174.56.132:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.4.0/24, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[178.254.4.101:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.50)[0.500]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.12)[0.125]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[178.254.4.101:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 08:47:08 -0000 El día domingo, mayo 31, 2020 a las 09:03:11p. m. -0400, John Levine escribió: > >What do you mean with "set up your scripts..."? I do > >not run any script (from my ISP), only the MUA mutt and fetchmail. > > Sorry, I meant set up their scripts. Again, this is the ISP's cert, > only they can manage and renew it. It will take a long time and a tough job to convince them that's their fault, starting already with the fact that the affected piece of software is the MUA mutt on FreeBSD, both little known to them. I know this from the past with other problems :-) matthias -- Matthias Apitz, ✉ guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub May, 9: Спаси́бо освободители! Thank you very much, Russian liberators! 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RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 10:46:45 -0000 Thomas, hello. On 1 Jun 2020, at 8:31, Thomas Mueller wrote: > One question has bugged me, how to set up /etc/exports to be able to > export by either NFSv3 or NFSv4, without having to have two files and > copy to /etc/exports every time you want to use the other (NFSv3 or 4) > protocol. It should be that if you include V4: / in the /etc/exports, setting the NFS-root, then the same paths will be accessible via both v3 and v4. I recall this did work for me, though in my case I'm committing to NFSv4 only, so have set a NFS-root different from /. In the case of 'V4: /foo', then the directory /foo/bar will be accessible as that via NFSv3 and as /bar via NFSv4. Best wishes, Norman -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK Charity number SC004401 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 14:12:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2787E338014 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:12:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bHDP35rYz40Vp for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:12:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id c185so9119697qke.7 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:12:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CKD1yyj00bVuZAwEosE7Ih3Vl0BOsmehAvguy1DqeZM=; b=NjmRGIfYsaGOrDgO7jGCYd6PfN7KpYpSZx5GU8W1hvGQS2zVXK0T8ae6WuMjeIR3zn kjz7IEEfcKkfDPItDSpYa0gPmf7pp47CRYdcZK5BX75DTepuL+xIBZIbAaQbfIM9W499 oxzrCKYrxoudpXKx3QJfSZMg9VrciHFGSKsUjoEfkIWif18H9KDfmWllKZXvTSbPRDqG XAk2ZNVwfKuG9HKxEpUJb4+2IzROp1GKtdZ1IcA++ORC46dat5JYFvZMN/MIuM15WdF/ HxcgM43b9FIjns4kCCfRIrPSPNsJY6PhWy0OXlRORjygEIQAxd8gpR1UA4hU7X8JoA42 QtSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CKD1yyj00bVuZAwEosE7Ih3Vl0BOsmehAvguy1DqeZM=; b=a5MsfycPRS+x9CXRCbYRxYk9PfeP5I7SfvRNk/JnG6jyQ8MdXjZLKw5Zqu06cnGhN6 45YVATHZ37w9+Pncy5VKKHnatDKO3jJgCsFyfu9LklWRZYvDSpuRHtbX6ABRzXrL7GyJ KZOxl4xZ7jLx6l/RCQpO9LcUFTypJfFDq+qGtYLEBLqXz8vgpjM7Yd7C/BsBOhHo+OGB 15ntfQqMV12pPtzF9W79+Tt82fl13AC7TvOa3VoGWzwD+flTyCBpH+W/EQ6nbMpPMUN5 BZU8L61eZW2/18KyfBxrZDjs2nN0bFad4L673D1a3+qzauu3sB25Bbm2N5Ro+IivgrRP XnzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fjUN6WQNTrIVqClpKK0DWykYJkl+gUJeAABIfOd7jTC9NKPMb exsg1ct1sPH2QGt9iPNwNdNIUGHE X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzsWXBdBF4CKpqSjwCvdZbw3Yi2epDuI7ZVIXEwduVv1G1+H2ghu6D4EjPmr/pf+FeKyh5+cA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:664a:: with SMTP id a71mr18785426qkc.428.1591020724055; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-53-210.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.53.210]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o33sm5967592qtj.44.2020.06.01.07.12.02 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5ED50CB1.5080003@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 10:12:01 -0400 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jos Chrispijn CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 7ZIP Windows question References: <56263fa6-a3fc-ffbb-9f78-732e69b94b8d@irk.ru> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bHDP35rYz40Vp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=NjmRGIfY; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::730 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.10)[-0.104]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[65.25.53.210:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::730:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 14:12:06 -0000 Jos Chrispijn wrote: > On 27-5-20 20:01, Yuri Pankov wrote: > >>> Problem is the following: Somebody sent to me the archive with files >>> with Russian names in 7Z format. I used the p7zip from both ports and >>> packages to extract it. Result was the same: Some files were not >>> extracted with diagnostic "Too long filename". > > Try to rename first from within the 7Z file (so check content of the 7Z > archive by overview, rename the file(s) and update the archive. > > Best, Jos Try using the windows10 version of 7z From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 14:36:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2A03389B1 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:36:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bHmQ1Dvsz422H for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:36:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C2E1510ACE for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:36:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c43e:bed4:fd80:ab56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 771751BCE3 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:36:18 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/771751BCE3; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: freebsd-update versions? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <43710642-9E74-40DC-A50C-9DC0C9C4BED1@kreme.com> From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci TMyaWC2YCIHz4Ljs+TnwWMz0E8PNFDfHVbQ0W4PRGV7gRAqxfL+yKufauIEGbEq8rNDbSwL3 bcUCxR4ZDlaUEUwT4J8naf7rjdgiEYHs2Ig3jeK1+ER4FPG1sQARAQABtCRNYXR0aGV3IFNl YW1hbiA8bWF0dGhld0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsFFgMC 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In-Reply-To: <43710642-9E74-40DC-A50C-9DC0C9C4BED1@kreme.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Z4Gdvpi9aKeKmQZ2OxKgOxBUuOoYGw5bj" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 14:36:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Z4Gdvpi9aKeKmQZ2OxKgOxBUuOoYGw5bj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="O2wvyjXbF2NhuptYw5Ccu83KQmhEiuDsu" --O2wvyjXbF2NhuptYw5Ccu83KQmhEiuDsu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 31/05/2020 21:59, @lbutlr wrote: > Since there is not a way to see the available versions via the > freebsd-update tool, what is the recommended way to get access to a lis= t > of what is available for use with freebsd-update -r? By checking on this web page under 'Production Release': https://www.freebsd.org/releases/ Cheers, Matthew --O2wvyjXbF2NhuptYw5Ccu83KQmhEiuDsu-- --Z4Gdvpi9aKeKmQZ2OxKgOxBUuOoYGw5bj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl7VEu5fFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5Od67w/9H25n5jsuJ/8/olnuy7M9GUCeabWQKNuP5ZA/IOLxU0JK9B4++anMxyDb 9tOtGJ3bZMNonne12jl4Ulq5kVGweKCUZMSFfZkXC/iGfthukUFoTEMufC/C/dXL 2KmpVxifsEjO5MCcjfPmL0DgEm21OZ3N1knKD5ENrL2EOcJdSrb5/kqaigNMdmA0 H/GY9EwYZOnI0g4QJyJemhh2s/5KPkrXm4V+DsXVci+aEpSsBUH/8QyDtaciqtfJ EfZ0SPuIF+Ytzo9NZcqltHpo3BS/zneukdjZrmQJS4AL90u89eRoCfNzKu+k3y78 j9drO/wPOGotcMek69KasoGAyvfuviKyr2iSE9m40WNRTTPKAmuHTI67c0ijcYbQ Geg6ypRsqKO+zlwxwwk1JGxxZpuDBrEiZ8+e50kWt8ULbPrP+D+pob7Oo1v5dR+j /UHsehpfqF/zSuKDuoEmZd0hbrrsXRpQbS8GW2suLgeDi8CYVVrW/gVrvqJtKXsd 5oKROjM2K+ivnP733AyU/wVGihH/08k0reDddvbdoBAs43QjLQNFU/Exn3Ap/ecF vE/dCZzKSLvJIlnZXMEcPrqXQltMjxsKfu02HLsWP0r1E3QNcell+h4NMIbCUlUY uonBc+v2m/Lx9zYs6+S23RGA1BiNVC62XNqO1MEjEHTZH/ZiQIc= =j12Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Z4Gdvpi9aKeKmQZ2OxKgOxBUuOoYGw5bj-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 15:03:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179683392CD for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:03:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bJN23fkSz44Y1; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:03:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MDhQt-1jnmzw2hV9-00AmMU; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 17:03:43 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:03:43 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Matthew Seaman Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-update versions? Message-Id: <20200601170343.303e93c3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <43710642-9E74-40DC-A50C-9DC0C9C4BED1@kreme.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7lkN8kn3OopCyX8fNpQdXJaOk/DLrpmpo6ocORwxvrsYarJw5Bh vkerzrynMcvk4CG5x4H/iji8OwHpYqaSJX47XRsJnen/IIsbEUL23cClJ0atEnuE3UG7Nlo iaSuQ1EiWuGwIPiHIQTXiJ71krtsjSEVH5BJYczSKD4GySm38ZlDpsaksRYfeSgqkNqAQ1G L7z871DlCu2+SwqZdip3A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:lPOBepDzeCM=:cpRXD9xD2+mRKTAVvwF24M PviEXSj5TB5AIfEsXzWUNCjOQpOkc3U6rePNyLRUPEUr1CumMmzs814/icZzKdPC0ru0synNW YnkBJyCl02VntEMucr+Js8YPIxhjLWxd4hA+6kCochXJxn+PEObrxLAzNvGjO1Yq2iim15IXm L1kRZzs8h7thm1jhe528CyMbCYvt9c7/jVXRGCxhagSLbR8McEC9RZ/cjDzwkTH85dVsVtghB HevqQGZIwFBRkhwO5p44az7lNZo+WMqNQcfDVZsLQMFrLwkiii3BJj6ki0N5V37L2LGo8KjYk gb2fd32OQF/v8Bdkm6TKPXebS/Kg4NpURE3HoLgdYNWdYM6VT3wgk1nTPttr7j5tW3ltgha8d AJ2VGW9nGn8He5yZF6rhvQ7SkAfMrRro7SkuCDCD+f09cWIlgAX74CHRgRiNh0GvWZon3E4Nk eCw1WKSAj16TZXJo4jnS8FdHUMYFdyylyG1oZ5SK3cSWLHRAlIYF4zURHRndi/2e5cFgxDUSw 3yvjXPxAmMvhDyy0dkcvE7OGi3xgqXuHjjEaB2HYU7RM1JhEUTHalZ1sqw86VFJ4SxeOmeIRO QP6aaXcEgFNuE5eJs0yJQbYuAidB5mBc7ffABUrBjsV9MFNHGcpIqqySxZnd7F6Q8xxGyIEUZ pUhBXPweU7i325BrrK6gzXHhKrj3MnH3PiFFgJxN5H7jBZc/mfc8IdinsVAZsO+OpAtJsoS7a 9cNpUmrfkFNqy2IU5SBUKqZgnOvZ0owWu9R1Q34GpchICmkSE7vJRFDOYqTt7jfibg6ruhE42 LRQOomWRRPJgb7VStszXQOwpS8Rgs3EENE3xokNMgddEt3tLpEiAUxaJdN52DjDcTTLeJcP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bJN23fkSz44Y1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 15:03:47 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:38:38 +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 31/05/2020 21:59, @lbutlr wrote: > > Since there is not a way to see the available versions via the > > freebsd-update tool, what is the recommended way to get access to a list > > of what is available for use with freebsd-update -r? > > By checking on this web page under 'Production Release': > > https://www.freebsd.org/releases/ This (and the "Errata" subpages) are quite informative, but I assume the information expected is something like this: # freebsd-version -ku <- what we currently have 12.1-RELEASE-p5 12.1-RELEASE-p5 # freebsd-update -e <- what we could get 12.1-RELEASE-p7 12.2-RELEASE # freebsd-update -r upgrade So by this fictional example, it would now be possible to upgrade the current 12.1-p5 to 12.1-p7, or upgrade to the new 12.2 (no patches yet). The option -e / --expect could for example retrieve and show what could be installed; of course older releases and patches are not shown because it's freebsd-update, not freebsd-downdate. Am I thinking into the right direction? :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 17:21:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B144133CAC5 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:21:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@bertram-scharpf.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bMQV2vbdz4HYg for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:21:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@bertram-scharpf.de) Received: from becker.bs.l ([77.182.15.127]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.129]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M1YtP-1jiH630WIl-0033Ua for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:21:04 +0200 Received: from bsch by becker.bs.l with local (Exim 4.93.0.4 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jfo7T-00090C-K1 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:21:03 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:21:03 +0200 From: Bertram Scharpf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Funtion getlogin_r()'s protoype Message-ID: <20200601172103.d4ellm6wparwm3fb@becker.bs.l> Reply-To: Bertram Scharpf Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Bertram Scharpf X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:gmC5v+k4w1CfVro6nkqtdWG1qFjlrnU1UkIbYq1aA5OnCEpUY7w luRu5RVYqUVQUV0xhWxL3RCJiHNjE6a5f6CgsUXlvCSz40Ft7itO4HXcZM4EmGqYbdrz7Tt avO8M5DqxA0gIeCluB9aHkF+vbn+XvTNh//HWnQTOxsvL8X3r8FyIlxkmZPcOkDrrweP1zV rPYApiVFmvwreqZzmuz9g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:E6gv+k8MGBk=:NueStUy7C/sB+UXfVDqkC+ WUAqw5zrwkujrSJWzdPbbFgV/oAtMfUnMPN8woJYLqTONdtX+SR7oOfq+dxsKWeDvfdH9shHx APiCzHOJgnFkAoA2de+qWCAkF0RT5Qn2pL8ptYBk051JeAhb894I6Iy2wJ086tIqIG+sqO8xC ql2S1PX1BZbpr78B+LMf2G0oFk37LstSXsfMtIJE3u6iOsU89f09OSeBb1Q0taIYkrxRRAwBu Jm61qF8CXSl4f5rHGI2ZYl0MlWbi37vgIYqVtvbMygjdDZej2yALxhORGNSohCM1QzzLx8wSC OqDghMIJSH0yU8eIkGYDJVAgQgpD8VbhjTRZ11AOXWVN0ZOPTQnPS+7tZGm7E3tmKppijhIDp T/N7hnJfXBoHm7QEaaDQQifNMp0toabGkWDNJEkKg9trtCByhWRF7yaJp9VwISpcK7gBoUmF1 3n7roMEEzqF6PAJS8tLLBzOoGYHKDV/QC5UQG7cO+paLN1w8y1jUrjLvPgdkae8mdpo9BnKcf 9uY6Jqeo91QqTMDcc9tqFfLLfrGvWvPib/QRBarvswsgOTO0nP82uIOwLKFXbpQS8PokrF0tE 4gexvyMWHUagsJ+lorbsWoeVIBOYdAzJHQZ317R8KCiWujpP/QSI+twbxdN4jBQP/dDw9T8/t q6wHvn7YuU7H+RW+51+Bm8hI5ZIuO2bIZsqLutRwIHWFReV5Wxm90R78awDo1XuYXdfLN79Wj DC4teiNQM3CeijCKbJZOeJcDi/eP2ZcVXTdDoweeItRN21nVlOdvjj/fE2XuVDSF5Z99osI0L svgfctfEInFrcLg8tdlcvzYw2FwgiKVQq8IhMbiXxqjlMxlLtNxkKnciLUMHLCQIZXO6+bR X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bMQV2vbdz4HYg X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lists@bertram-scharpf.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=lists@bertram-scharpf.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.65 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[lists@bertram-scharpf.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.096]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.941]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.72)[0.716]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[77.182.15.127:received]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bertram-scharpf.de]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 17:21:07 -0000 Hi, I tried to build the newest Ruby. The compilation breaks because a function is declared differently in Linux and in FreeBSD. The Ruby crew doesn't seem to have noticed this yet. int getlogin_r(char *, size_t); /* Linux */ int getlogin_r(char *, int); /* FreeBSD */ The longer I think about it I get convinced this is a problem of FreeBSD rather than of Ruby. What do you think? What solution do you propose? Bertram -- Bertram Scharpf Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany http://www.bertram-scharpf.de From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 18:42:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4466233EB29 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bPDR2fpvz4Qm4 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:42:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: freebsd-update versions? Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:42:28 -0600 References: <43710642-9E74-40DC-A50C-9DC0C9C4BED1@kreme.com> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <695847E2-3AA9-42CC-93C4-3258C37EEB47@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bPDR2fpvz4Qm4 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.46)[-0.455]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.26)[-0.261]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.504]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 18:42:32 -0000 On 01 Jun 2020, at 08:38, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 31/05/2020 21:59, @lbutlr wrote: >> Since there is not a way to see the available versions via the >> freebsd-update tool, what is the recommended way to get access to a = list >> of what is available for use with freebsd-update -r? >=20 > By checking on this web page under 'Production Release': > https://www.freebsd.org/releases/ That is not that helpful when you are on the console, or even when you = are in a ssh session since you have to then switch to some other program = to check. Is there really no way to list the current versions other than = accessing a web page? On 01 Jun 2020, at 09:03, Polytropon wrote: > This (and the "Errata" subpages) are quite informative, but > I assume the information expected is something like this: >=20 > # freebsd-update -e <- what we could get > 12.1-RELEASE-p7 > 12.2-RELEASE >=20 > # freebsd-update -r upgrade Yes, something very much like this without having to go 'off-server' for = a web browser or do some scraping along the lines of wget -q -O- https://www.freebsd.org/releases/ \ | grep "Production Release:" \ | awk -F'>' '{print $4}' \ | sed 's/.\{3\}$//' 12.1 11.3 Or wget -q -O- https://www.freebsd.org/releases/ \ | grep "

Release " \ # or grep "Release [0-9]" if you = prefer | awk '{print $2}' \ | sed 's/.\{4\}$//' Which is bound to fail at some point. (Sooner more likely than later.) --=20 I SAW NOTHING UNUSUAL IN THE TEACHER'S LOUNGE Bart chalkboard Ep. 8F17 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 18:57:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7030E33ED82 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bPYC6zcdz4Rxt for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:57:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MkYLW-1jHExf25qI-00m2m6; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:57:01 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:56:59 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TPL+Q4ZYztDCGCcMXCXskbIptMBORGlR1UM4ssSZzz/ZQZpZ+XP rbXm2+4oKDfJQ7GEY4rfAe5kiJhmylxvpG30arLVsmf2+IaT4j+TdRGxBjcH/hC6+DXmvop qOxG7FPkNKA2EG1suZkpsuWEPr/pjNMHPf3JAM0sV1ovpxDfU7eiawXtWTfZm17xg37Bw02 d0KugcAIvDbumUBdR+X0A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:x+fM/aXwuws=:dvUV6I3M+c2XeoLx4HLWXA wN7qdoG7Jm5m7oVQuXRh0DFRfwgThifKKOpbSEwnWvfPLP11iovo92C2nJAKZT5KBZ+fUoA+y UaBUqKwDVUXRnHaetDCjFzPNP9AzswjqhKuOqHbaL8GLdHVt+DdwnPxQJ4Utgt+6z13rgJCUl 0jSLrEn1SxXH3Hk4jCNz4oOoFBd1a1KacEld8icQ55OO/gtNKqNJhxoGQx27BQXZ2evzuhmss Qmfxq/gFmYq6UzfYhRzyVZOfUVy5oi/0FkNAW8Q9W2mzC4pp1w2RIlkqF7+fU5NzWkvO03iIU cyt2dpXvYY4wOvn/5f7qG7/FAP1n7o5qyYMvk5/mnKK4wP2rwlTpJ6i75pA+f+5tyE+ASNtFr HF4TM29iKmvUXxHpe6EzFY8UZEiJCSs4jTdrhWxL2maztmSE/BZ6DTGht4kNavtZpg3/sLTyW AnO8xWyTuo3bbqioP0lr+mtzsZA8FUqqM7MJZYtVZxenTVycFH3rAqDjM+2PX7yDqSPxN+9KD tSlTOh+6Q6l0ew4Z/xN8Y+lNEyr4ms5D0heTUOl9tIH+uLu1uWrXmGAI2oP+3021g9piHmbcC wX8PLoCOQToK9RVcVVevkfn7bNcD+q8RUh+iLEhEVXld2lftHfSeUTJFKi80y0sRrAHz1Zqfp gmLzrm298oz4usclRDp0wl9TbY17qYnFvnatnRBl1biVFd+KKOz5CuQRpXFbC+/WEHgvZtakR pgNU1kftsQc3T4sRFxArhPQ21Vq5KdTdEzyVnlQk6Zse7RtDJ3/E6xku8hQmUIli+ArlyFmsL PN5RUtkKd3vg3lZFI0BSwATpBRuicFnojFeDeMLkyX0nDpsTbrAAAAlVEml6nPQ5SY0ig7h X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bPYC6zcdz4Rxt X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.26 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.01)[0.010]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.83)[0.830]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.02)[1.016]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 18:57:05 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 01:01:22 +0200, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 12:11 AM Polytropon wrote: > > What is the correct driver for X for "modesetting", and how > > can I easily verify it has been loaded? > > It is part of the Xorg I guess. Make sure you are in the video group. Verified. The user is also member of the "administrative groups" (operator and wheel). > Use no config launch startx and it should auto configure. Yes, this works. I no longer need (as it seems to be unsupported( a configuration file for keyboard language, as this has now become a O(n) instead of O(1) operation, bah, per user. > Well thing > changed a bit and we just need to put some time for that to work no > other way ;-) I just wish it was documented in a way a simple mind like mine could understand. :-) So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): In /boot/loader.conf: drm_load="YES" In /etc/rc.conf: kld_list="amdgpu" In the user's ~/.xinitrc: setxkbmap -rules evdev -layout de The following related packages are installed: drm-kmod-g20190710 drm-fbsd12.0-kmod-4.16.g20200221 xf86-video-amdgpu-19.1.0_1 libdrm-2.4.99,1 In /var/log/Xorg.0.log, I still get the misleading messages: [ 43.096] (II) LoadModule: "ati" [ 43.098] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module ati [ 43.098] (EE) Failed to load module "ati" (module does not exist, 0) As I seaid, when the xf86-video-ati package was installed, I just got a black screen in X. However, with xf86-video-amdgpu installed, there is no indication in the log file that a driver named "amdgpu" (or the like) has been loaded. Bit I get the message saying Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so Followd by those errors: [ 43.111] (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory [ 43.111] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting [ 43.111] (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory [ 43.111] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for scfb ... [ 43.111] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" And later on, it's still pointing to VESA being used. Strange thing, with "glxgears", I now get approx. 260 FPS, which is 5 times as much as before. No directory /dev/dri does exist. I have installed the MESA packages (mesa-demos, mesa-libs, and mesa-dri), but that's the software renderer. The "driinfo" program reports an error, obviously. So it still seems that there's something missing for DRI? Or is this something to enable somewhere else? > BSD still seems to be "the rational island" in this "sand castle > world" and I can clearly see that I also need to add my bricks to make > it work well thus my focus here :-) >From all the sand that is blewn over from Linux world, it becomes a bit harder to see _which_ solution is the suggested one, at least for the moment... > > > I > > > also use hald and dbus. > > > > Accepting outdated Linux stuff to make FreeBSD graphics > > work again doesn't sound as if it was the right thing to > > do... ;-) > > Yea, but this is my _work_station_ so my main focus is to get the > results in a shorter and shorter time spans.. not always I have lots > of time to play and fix things anymore.. the world gone mad :-( I have systems running MATE which also have HAL and DBus for whatever reason, and this works. > > Many many moving parts. :-) > > "Change is good" man "root is obsolete" why do we even need those > computers ;-) ;-) I don't know I'm no good with computering. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 19:09:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF2633EF3D for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:09:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mx.blih.net (mx.blih.net [212.83.155.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.blih.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bPqJ6vmBz4T3P for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; s=mx; t=1591038548; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=RJsrX8U114335Rgi84nifua+h3pbIlMelBjJK92Y5/A=; b=QWHtm3Iuo1MZidBAo4iTtkKcl5dJM7xx5oVaS5B/uuk4lquV8FmRgoRDwVWJYwOc0L3SYg 58K8wNEdMpNlCQ/MMx3/G74whgS596aoFW4tC5rKx6RqeRVPGCwrz70MS0eIiiyCQlBAVQ q2JKxYvg2/WVG+gFRI5+ebcgFYRh+yg= Received: from skull.home.blih.net (lfbn-idf2-1-900-181.w86-238.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.238.131.181]) by mx.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 13ee68bd (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:09:04 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Polytropon Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bPqJ6vmBz4T3P X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mx header.b=QWHtm3Iu; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=bidouilliste.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.155.74 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mx]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[bidouilliste.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.151]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.128.0/19, country:FR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:09:18 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:56:59 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 01:01:22 +0200, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 12:11 AM Polytropon wrote: > > > What is the correct driver for X for "modesetting", and how > > > can I easily verify it has been loaded? > > > > It is part of the Xorg I guess. Make sure you are in the video group. > > Verified. The user is also member of the "administrative > groups" (operator and wheel). > > > > > Use no config launch startx and it should auto configure. > > Yes, this works. I no longer need (as it seems to be unsupported( > a configuration file for keyboard language, as this has now become > a O(n) instead of O(1) operation, bah, per user. > > > > > Well thing > > changed a bit and we just need to put some time for that to work no > > other way ;-) > > I just wish it was documented in a way a simple mind like mine > could understand. :-) > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > drm_load="YES" That won't work. > In /etc/rc.conf: > > kld_list="amdgpu" This should be enough to have drm.ko loaded as a dependency. > > In the user's ~/.xinitrc: > > setxkbmap -rules evdev -layout de > > The following related packages are installed: > > drm-kmod-g20190710 > drm-fbsd12.0-kmod-4.16.g20200221 > xf86-video-amdgpu-19.1.0_1 > libdrm-2.4.99,1 > > In /var/log/Xorg.0.log, I still get the misleading messages: > > [ 43.096] (II) LoadModule: "ati" > [ 43.098] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module ati > [ 43.098] (EE) Failed to load module "ati" (module does not exist, 0) > > As I seaid, when the xf86-video-ati package was installed, I > just got a black screen in X. However, with xf86-video-amdgpu > installed, there is no indication in the log file that a driver > named "amdgpu" (or the like) has been loaded. Bit I get the > message saying > > Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so > > Followd by those errors: > > [ 43.111] (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory > [ 43.111] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting > [ 43.111] (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory > [ 43.111] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for scfb > ... > [ 43.111] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" > > And later on, it's still pointing to VESA being used. Strange thing, > with "glxgears", I now get approx. 260 FPS, which is 5 times as > much as before. > > No directory /dev/dri does exist. If you have no /dev/dri and no /dev/drm it means that the drm modules wasn't loaded. Look in dmesg for errors and also try to "kldload amdgpu" or "kldload radeonkms" depending on your GPU. > I have installed the MESA packages (mesa-demos, mesa-libs, and > mesa-dri), but that's the software renderer. The "driinfo" program > reports an error, obviously. > > So it still seems that there's something missing for DRI? > > Or is this something to enable somewhere else? > > > > > BSD still seems to be "the rational island" in this "sand castle > > world" and I can clearly see that I also need to add my bricks to make > > it work well thus my focus here :-) > > From all the sand that is blewn over from Linux world, it > becomes a bit harder to see _which_ solution is the suggested > one, at least for the moment... > > > > > > > I > > > > also use hald and dbus. > > > > > > Accepting outdated Linux stuff to make FreeBSD graphics > > > work again doesn't sound as if it was the right thing to > > > do... ;-) > > > > Yea, but this is my _work_station_ so my main focus is to get the > > results in a shorter and shorter time spans.. not always I have lots > > of time to play and fix things anymore.. the world gone mad :-( > > I have systems running MATE which also have HAL and DBus for > whatever reason, and this works. > > > > > > Many many moving parts. :-) > > > > "Change is good" man "root is obsolete" why do we even need those > > computers ;-) ;-) > > I don't know I'm no good with computering. :-) > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 19:10:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E0F33F022 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bPrY4LxLz4TSP for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:10:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1McGtA-1j7t393PgK-00cepp; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 21:10:19 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:10:19 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Bertram Scharpf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Funtion getlogin_r()'s protoype Message-Id: <20200601211019.b262da3e.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200601172103.d4ellm6wparwm3fb@becker.bs.l> References: <20200601172103.d4ellm6wparwm3fb@becker.bs.l> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.21 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.02)[-0.020]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.83)[0.830]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.005]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:10:22 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:21:03 +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote: > I tried to build the newest Ruby. The compilation breaks > because a function is declared differently in Linux and in > FreeBSD. The Ruby crew doesn't seem to have noticed this > yet. > > int getlogin_r(char *, size_t); /* Linux */ > int getlogin_r(char *, int); /* FreeBSD */ > > The longer I think about it I get convinced this is a > problem of FreeBSD rather than of Ruby. > > What do you think? What solution do you propose? >From what I understand, I agree. The 2nd parameter is the length parameter, which should be of size_t (as many other length and amount parameters already are). Maybe a bug report plus a suggestion for a fix is helpful? >From "man getlogin_r": int getlogin_r(char *name, int len); Implementation in /usr/src/lib/libc/gen/getlogin.c: int getlogin_r(char *logname, int namelen) { char tmpname[MAXLOGNAME]; int len; if (namelen < 1) return (ERANGE); logname[0] = '\0'; if (_getlogin(tmpname, sizeof(tmpname)) < 0) return (errno); len = strlen(tmpname) + 1; if (len > namelen) return (ERANGE); strlcpy(logname, tmpname, len); return (0); } This looks like a perfect place to use size_t instead of int (note the range check). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 19:40:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABF733FD56 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:40:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bQWM4McMz4Xvv for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:40:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0893C529D; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:40:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo12-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yLPeFi5a6ao7; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:40:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F2D1EC5235; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:40:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 051JeOD4038307 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:40:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:40:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bQWM4McMz4Xvv X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.43 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[81.228.157.209:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.737]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.18)[-0.177]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.55)[0.549]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.68.202.10:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:40:32 -0000 On 2020-05-31 23:17, Polytropon wrote: > > I can get only 60 fps in "glxgears" (5600 on my old home PC from 2007). At least for me (and many others according to google), it initially says: Running synchronized to the vertical refresh. The framerate should be approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate. I.e. 60 fps (I get the same) is probably correct. Unfortunately the only way to find out how to make it *not* be "synchronized to the vertical refresh" seems to be google (or the source, probably). Try $ env vblank_mode=0 glxgears (I get 7100+ fps with that.) --Per From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 20:06:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920702F0BBB for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bR5Q68xGz4cS2 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDD2C4489; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:06:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo12-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8KCKPN5IghZ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:06:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8181EC0C79; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:06:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 051K6TAC038393 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:06:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:06:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bR5Q68xGz4cS2 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[81.228.157.209:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.739]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.145]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.531]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.68.202.10:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:06:35 -0000 On 2020-06-01 20:56, Polytropon wrote: > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > drm_load="YES" Not saying that it will improve anything:-), but I believe you should drop this - it will load /boot/kernel/drm.ko, which I believe is causing the "This code is obsolete abandonware" message that you reported earlier, and possibly other errors that you are seeing. $ strings /boot/kernel/drm.ko | grep abandon This code is obsolete abandonware. Install the graphics/drm-legacy-kmod pkg > In /etc/rc.conf: > > kld_list="amdgpu" This module is from the drm*kmod port/package, installed in /boot/modules - I believe (at least this is the case with i915kms) it will in turn cause /boot/modules/drm.ko (also from the port, and *not* "abandonware":-) rather than /boot/kernel/drm.ko to be loaded - provided that you haven't already loaded /boot/kernel/drm.ko... --Per From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 20:13:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2FE2F11AD for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:13:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bRFm2zNkz4dRc for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:13:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MofPt-1jD6d51iw5-00p6NN; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:13:34 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:13:34 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601221334.c9486a27.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:R/dGYbIq8fxqKHP2VedriivXv3bfaqA2qvYFpwHhXZZNuLqOcr4 eq9xWkJUWcBRcDrMQfi0LxpFQ451e2aPWVZN+6IfZXD1W9NF1FzAVTlCowih+Q8X6XWJLHS re4HXNFmgsvr5HR+bRq7Z679xa6iFg3JJIft5DzCar7OtxI+2LcCCC92ySDi9ItsqhPXrbn PTLg9VBWW0XOoE0S1l7vQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jndpQnfkwfY=:Vjty/gndJ3z5fBXK8nKGk/ Zbcv9AG+O5uwT5Y/ZHsId/PvxuSwglBQPSMfSKY7x/Ggl7yzvlEZ6mXEnNmZmFigZt/vwac5a NF4KQePRvFpOr7BLMips0j91yGqWxradyCEAaAeLCLJG/aV+D1Q+fMXR0hzQN+tuxVyubsGCb aF1Rl9sBAmqvIlabMh1rJ05zBUdKSHesirF5FhS4vo2Y6yafo6wsNZqLPXjOmplaudS9ZOIQC t51WG1GWGgyhiyeKIXlwhaYzZr5ThEpcrtHNtKOtVJ6oRyVEoPtDbYTh2qLOo0oBTDuAmXI7J a3zqcXJDJBvDzkweCEfoGSWlFGwoSyNKRJnluJJS8Ycm0mCxOir4m34LSYw2T3jBk/fe4cjxJ pR1MCIXHGpJiEn2Y4fcGj3xNYRtKZUlxX0BkRit/dfOgC03lKm6n7yfsx21NzGEJ6gQNd527o yJljMchJTk5/vARd1pasBdiE1OY46z9p9UyrNXj1wd8lJ77i0/J3PXa0qUltqr068ibgofaCk NoWrkmrBiZurZOurHeucC5qinthgU2iBcw9pEbt4WMCsvrf8fchOoI0FjRnfe6NlnMo6bT7+/ wpKAUdLhPBdvZUWEX0Kes2d5w7J241kzepr8YTLlW/ElWmasf+bSnzlh6a2LvXk549BeU9xiI 4T6RzRLVKVmEB+QSmkO5VctQqeZiWwSlnYIELkV3SwYPxYu2eL8KYcGYts2GpCtUSQDygCGgZ qfUZR5aPBqmkoGoGVvTJrlUvb05hyzWX68p8hyR33UosU2IY+7YRgZFQkRq0Mkx7yZunbMTNS DobCAQowJ2DGb61VxzwVZwN8wlNHnrJgqP8CSaBM6T2hzEwysllvru0EeyPRqqBds59Wc+Z X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bRFm2zNkz4dRc X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.63 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.39)[-0.386]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.65)[0.654]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.96)[0.964]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:13:49 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:09:04 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:56:59 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > > > drm_load="YES" > > That won't work. > > > In /etc/rc.conf: > > > > kld_list="amdgpu" > > This should be enough to have drm.ko loaded as a dependency. I will comment out the setting in /boot/loader.conf. Currently I have the following (interesting) modules: # kldstat Id Refs Address Size Name 1 47 0xffffffff80200000 2448f20 kernel [...] 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 250464 amdgpu.ko <--- 5 2 0xffffffff82a72000 76570 drm.ko <--- 6 5 0xffffffff82ae9000 10eb0 linuxkpi.ko 7 4 0xffffffff82afa000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko [...] So those seem to be loaded correctly. After reboot, the result is the same: drm.ko has been loaded automatically. Thanks for that particular pointer, no need to explicitely order things that will be automatically ordered anyway. :-) > If you have no /dev/dri and no /dev/drm it means that the drm modules > wasn't loaded. > Look in dmesg for errors and also try to "kldload amdgpu" or "kldload > radeonkms" depending on your GPU. I have /dev/drm/{0...255} owned by root:video (with rw for the group, which the user is a member of). The "kldstat" output shows that at least drm.ko and amdgpu.ko have been loaded. I do _not_ have /dev/dri (and card0 therein), which is what Xorg.0.log seems to complain about. In the "dmesg" output, the following entry is relevant: [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled. So this part probably is complete. The laptop HP dm-1 contains a 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' model 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]', as reported by "pciconf -lv". I have to admit that I'm confused by the "amdgpu" vs. "radeon" vs. "ati" naming and drivers stuff, though... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 20:24:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4532F13D6 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bRVb27r7z4fd0 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:24:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M1HuU-1jic98448g-002mPL; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:24:53 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:24:52 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Per Hedeland Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601222452.52e4c3c1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:F/Z7tMqTSW/UL8j10Dw/429nuUozb4kjigXa5w3bHgS39SKZdX3 kaqgvfAZVJJqUoc2xrmhhUOzEBSRE4F69sZGAVbcCmxTWcon2m4orkuT6uzmWbGQ+C52ktV r0saboIn8AfwIkFhTchYtb+5cLmrgMpI2xkSBD8SWv2pCvpbJw2rLta0yf4taFuCRj/+43N j/uv8Ku7d5a7+hfAtfqYg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:u8FAqZ/t8Us=:vKEMB9Fut0qo+fceqanvu7 ZfE/E7YTjwvmZPMEPn4Gb8KCNtM6Raec8ynJTuNBskK0ILJTr5LCpp0WW3R2HNfeGckvkozYJ +jxaY9edm8n/VnM3bBrT4ZdsKFJiOP1+rIRFbSHJhZw4wuOlZ6xOwZT/BShPwu9aKSAk8XDWI IbZUVPPuK4XABQ1O9umPsLi9WlUCqSxQ7ZOJF6+uOWkcqE6l6WZpN4smQJiVC+Yd+i2l4wk6X EVUVnZ8XV9aLiJGC8XmnfyqvIVBSYCLIqWxJV7ppn996PdHXYxJlVxV12FQWUs1oFwoYMvEBD ptkv97vUym04El3r+U9FO2EuaPZAUMM0msRCpPxDHjwiOACQDH5BPc0jb90NMQpi6eJ6uyj+Q shY3zJiBq3Av93FrYKnm9hixgeeURcNZ19/infX6qdaodu1U2jJQPEEzErqPTH5iH/zyDkiL/ jx59+UYGonYRISJNNIRRVhet6xgZ4c3fRoX3MeKoB2/wWlPZ79W9yy04Qxwwnuq22On//Besa gQV2VD7fnYqWQ0Qm3GfEewNf30Xc/2f6Y2ewaJKDjoKeBVDLC66JK5HEOr4rdRmD2E5kXKuqw 2+LKvvj5zEj2NiMbZTG2FVxEcW9Pt59kEnGuW8awaZVz0PC/xxHG6LDL66GjXRMnx+RR0VcYO 6DaIfOuUw9u3unFbNq6wD/1x8diioFF5OJJT8SI3A/lkoJzIlG0bYNyQW2fpjMihgvIeDK8SD giE5THEL19liTwNva2afVi/zbkxxgLQvgVEHuSf2UASldypOBO3gTi7W0prTwJfQPup60RrEm sRgaXxsZVLSzlMTY1UKErw1TkJK7ToWAUDr0w9e8qlkCqINf8PtI7KaX7zaN0Y+ZT6ps/KV X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bRVb27r7z4fd0 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.48 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.379]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.44)[0.440]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.02)[1.016]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:24:56 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:40:24 +0200, Per Hedeland wrote: > On 2020-05-31 23:17, Polytropon wrote: > > > > I can get only 60 fps in "glxgears" (5600 on my old home PC from 2007). > > At least for me (and many others according to google), it initially says: > > Running synchronized to the vertical refresh. The framerate should be > approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate. > > I.e. 60 fps (I get the same) is probably correct. Unfortunately the > only way to find out how to make it *not* be "synchronized to the > vertical refresh" seems to be google (or the source, probably). Try > > $ env vblank_mode=0 glxgears > > (I get 7100+ fps with that.) With or without that environmental setting, I now get about 260 FPS (the setting doesn't seem to change anything), which already is an improvement using the "amdgpu" kernel module. Still I'm not sure if my X still runs on VESA - seems like it; the log file contains: [ 237.685] (II) LoadModule: "ati" [ 237.688] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module ati [ 237.688] (EE) Failed to load module "ati" (module does not exist, 0) [ 237.688] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting" [ 237.688] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so [...] [ 237.691] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/scfb_drv.so [...] [ 237.692] (II) LoadModule: "vesa" [...] [ 237.693] (II) modesetting: Driver for Modesetting Kernel Drivers: kms [ 237.698] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" And then lots of VESA information. I thought that "amdgpu" is now the correct driver name? I have the kernel module installed and loaded, I have the X drivers package installed (xf86-video-amdgpu), so shouldn't there be at least _some_ little evidence that this driver has been loaded, in the log file? As I said, when I install xf86-video-ati, after "startx" I only get a black screen. The names "amdgpu" / "radeon" / "ati" more or less seem to mean the same, but are totally different in what they are to be used for. This is very confusing... :-/ Sidenote: On my el-cheapo Aldi home PC with nVidia graphics I get approx. 5200 FPS in "glxgears". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 20:41:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7F12F1F03 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:41:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bRt50PVvz3SSH for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:41:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M1JJC-1jibL72lp4-002l5b; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:41:47 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:41:47 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Per Hedeland Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601224147.33d102d6.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4OhiWAhcdraLchgYIcQqOPXbYZrMkS7dfq8s8LbnZBtPuWbdQjJ TjW67EkBJ+RSGha6MkmCNHBAfZdwp+fNGysPgQgY6wZfcHgKD84GtQD39eKBysZPEiQKcB5 gcwY1TmrR0KrKmkR2B6zNh1zpRyTJfV20Z/auw1lwmDwopPMiFnlcaCwGDH2b73ht9V1rEm HmGsb3q/xHxX1P/IsUJrA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:q/J2pUiB2YQ=:J59+wLe2Y7lnmuy4/dr24Q lnJMzBBH2SuGlz3zjqO/o37vdDNkVmlWRDNalGv8THK3jHqBxFRI2kLL5MvFCkgeGjeT/bbw7 q7LPsWDfZZ485ov1scMR41wfSln4k3wWxzEf0NysTMpid0vD44iYGKPcG064QthRmKuW13mvW Qsp6T4Ghd5aOWc0piAHvwdBhCWepo2rpimMMRXIW5XZ6rmvMS6EPC2wsH9KDbAgQTTro6PtOC a8UO3RMOTUJwYN5syoViaXBlB7NhgDQhyQ7SCh6gUJQ11nwyt70KVxH+pIsRjZKpgaosd3DLM hnfCELERTdsY6kWO78UxjFSb+grSzvtY7B8v2Pl3PzcfCLZXPWPc2voAt8r3Ux8T2sapkWl+L rbdsZhOh8ZxkhQ/HraaRcXbzaMKiLueswI61SsNScV+eTjHJ2TRF+go8fUKfkPsMZMDkluM+W urOul683WNN2VQq6Mgx2/3WpzxcGiZKBsIRPzq1ZtdXID7gD+j3dDgInr2+sMRwB0FNCc9wHM doM1mMUYKurzslt14sGEyWaLbU0cOtXVAQXR81V9PSTHuag1AO65I6HJSg6a8gL5ldv0UK5B6 aRbJeSqx8AaLyChCaZVGApJ3x0TXumR2+ZP+GRQtkFw7boRslbKNgnbOUTSDNsl35hFTgb2Eo MTwBoC3S9V9OiMVCT7Se17qMVLUVi/jRRw9ird9YAeG34TUSESa9noT73e0nPSnprEpWfkZWw uBYSxLYkc3EqBrptJ7BXhBZxDqrhJ4apHK1TJq92qECWYeAh1oQX8bsQM/1jwRQm0oazoXMc8 xkDFmWp1hcTKBGz8rpRlFGK6Qj4gIj+CgXJm/8NpUtXcYM+D/1MoCCG+q/WpdA1hE/xeb6R X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bRt50PVvz3SSH X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.75 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.10)[-0.104]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.44)[0.439]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.02)[1.016]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:41:50 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:06:29 +0200, Per Hedeland wrote: > On 2020-06-01 20:56, Polytropon wrote: > > > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > > > drm_load="YES" > > Not saying that it will improve anything:-), but I believe you should > drop this - it will load /boot/kernel/drm.ko, which I believe is > causing the "This code is obsolete abandonware" message that you > reported earlier, and possibly other errors that you are seeing. Yes, it works when it's not explicitely listed in /boot/loader.conf; no abandonware messages. :-) > > In /etc/rc.conf: > > > > kld_list="amdgpu" > > This module is from the drm*kmod port/package, installed in > /boot/modules - I believe (at least this is the case with i915kms) it > will in turn cause /boot/modules/drm.ko (also from the port, and *not* > "abandonware":-) rather than /boot/kernel/drm.ko to be loaded - > provided that you haven't already loaded /boot/kernel/drm.ko... Correct, and confirmed: # kldstat -v | grep "/boot/modules" 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 250464 amdgpu.ko (/boot/modules/amdgpu.ko) 5 2 0xffffffff82a72000 76570 drm.ko (/boot/modules/drm.ko) 7 4 0xffffffff82afa000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko (/boot/modules/linuxkpi_gplv2.ko) 8 2 0xffffffff82b0d000 6d0 debugfs.ko (/boot/modules/debugfs.ko) 9 1 0xffffffff82b0e000 f181 ttm.ko (/boot/modules/ttm.ko) So from the kernel module and installed packages perspective, everything seems to be in place. Remaining question: Why does X still use VESA? And what is that "modesetting" driver that gets loaded and unloaded? X is complicated. Maybe nobody knows. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 20:43:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DFB2F1A2F for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mx.blih.net (mx.blih.net [212.83.155.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.blih.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bRvy6W70z3SgH for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:43:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; s=mx; t=1591044204; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=ofgKT/KGIBVTB4MjpXMMjb4NYkweIS9o4sKrMiMPt4s=; b=dH6sFG781SLT/XuQJ0DfxEzGatgpcQ2CntPmnzhNn+4pgwhO7+i4RyChSgL9tEp4ZJ9HZs GwAI0yduXP+WZxW1SlU+xQ5tvjN9VVQ6XL0U2tva65OyNnC61AIn1S0UXTCkilbhJzkuX9 2HUxz/pZfsBd1z2vnXS9Fr3lYbUpSgQ= Received: from amy.home (lfbn-idf2-1-900-181.w86-238.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.238.131.181]) by mx.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 031d0b19 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:43:24 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:43:24 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Polytropon Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601224324.af8aecf82db7ad2b5efb4679@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: <20200601221334.c9486a27.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> <20200601221334.c9486a27.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bRvy6W70z3SgH X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mx header.b=dH6sFG78; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=bidouilliste.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.155.74 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mx]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[bidouilliste.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.18)[-0.177]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.984]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.128.0/19, country:FR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:43:28 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:13:34 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:09:04 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:56:59 +0200 > > Polytropon wrote: > > > > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > > > > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > > > > > drm_load="YES" > > > > That won't work. > > > > > In /etc/rc.conf: > > > > > > kld_list="amdgpu" > > > > This should be enough to have drm.ko loaded as a dependency. > > I will comment out the setting in /boot/loader.conf. Currently > I have the following (interesting) modules: > > # kldstat > Id Refs Address Size Name > 1 47 0xffffffff80200000 2448f20 kernel > [...] > 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 250464 amdgpu.ko <--- > 5 2 0xffffffff82a72000 76570 drm.ko <--- > 6 5 0xffffffff82ae9000 10eb0 linuxkpi.ko > 7 4 0xffffffff82afa000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko > [...] > > So those seem to be loaded correctly. > > After reboot, the result is the same: drm.ko has been loaded > automatically. Thanks for that particular pointer, no need to > explicitely order things that will be automatically ordered > anyway. :-) > > > > > If you have no /dev/dri and no /dev/drm it means that the drm modules > > wasn't loaded. > > Look in dmesg for errors and also try to "kldload amdgpu" or "kldload > > radeonkms" depending on your GPU. > > I have /dev/drm/{0...255} owned by root:video (with rw for the > group, which the user is a member of). The "kldstat" output > shows that at least drm.ko and amdgpu.ko have been loaded. > > I do _not_ have /dev/dri (and card0 therein), which is what > Xorg.0.log seems to complain about. That really weird and I don't really see how that can happen. Can you share the full dmesg please ? > In the "dmesg" output, the following entry is relevant: > > [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled. > > So this part probably is complete. > > The laptop HP dm-1 contains a 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > model 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]', as reported by "pciconf -lv". > I have to admit that I'm confused by the "amdgpu" vs. "radeon" > vs. "ati" naming and drivers stuff, though... It is confusing yes. Basically radeonkms is for old card up to Sea Island generation while amdgpu is for newer card (but also work for both Southern Island and Sea Island) Using https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/#radeongraphicscomputehardware if you have a >=GFX8 core use amdgpu. If you have a GFX6 or GFX7 core use either amdgpu or radeonkms depending on the result. Otherwise use radeonkms. And that might explain why you don't have /dev/dri as you should use radeonkms. So the drm module will create the /dev/drm/ nodes but as no driver registered no /dev/dri node is created. Please share the full pciconf -lv so I can confirm. > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 21:38:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F21B2F2D71 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:38:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10007ea6a2f.b8de1ee3cb36623982a45a1c261dfe3a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bT7s4dWvz3Zf7 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:38:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10007ea6a2f.b8de1ee3cb36623982a45a1c261dfe3a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591047530; x=1593639530; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=8Ca9QAndXyfqzsTZ9IS29vHNW2j/rTpFO92dGK7Ik9o=; b=jw3w/gVeKY2f/olbnNj+AgEThlqbtHxw/1v18QbxrZw+TVdUzoTu4GC8F9gmLPR0xKiJfDtTMums3Hkn0yhaHSsVadNx70gjRTUXvcxnfR96lyxSgtMr+RzmgLSc9YEI+O/hONeNv6XdooLZ9fQqAPStR5qnRoNexXZ8+ADTsUU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDdlYTZhMmYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:38:39 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:38:38 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jfs8i-0004x8-Rg; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:38:36 +0100 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:38:36 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: Per Hedeland , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601223836.3f170eec7421e733a5de60a1@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200601224147.33d102d6.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601224147.33d102d6.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bT7s4dWvz3Zf7 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=jw3w/gVe; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10007ea6a2f.b8de1ee3cb36623982a45a1c261dfe3a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10007ea6a2f.b8de1ee3cb36623982a45a1c261dfe3a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.988]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.931]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10007ea6a2f.b8de1ee3cb36623982a45a1c261dfe3a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org, 4250.82.1d4c10007ea6a2f.b8de1ee3cb36623982a45a1c261dfe3a@email-od.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 21:38:50 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:41:47 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > Remaining question: Why does X still use VESA? Yep because that's why you're seeing such low performance from glxgears. > And what is that "modesetting" driver that > gets loaded and unloaded? Good question - I thought it was the X end of kms but clearly not since it gets loaded and unloaded for me too and everything driver related is reported as 'intel' in Xorg.0.log. I run with no config at all apart from the kld_list in rc.conf. > X is complicated. Maybe nobody knows. :-) I understood X11R5 well enough to get it going on a box with no TCP stack, no shared memory support and no streams or sockets[guess first then see 1] - also a development environment where make had a line length limit too short for several of the Makefiles. I did cheer when an X appeared and followed the mouse, even more when I tortured the 1MB video card into giving me the resolution I wanted. The current iteration of Xorg and DRI/DRM is mostly black magic to me, but when it cooperates it is impressive. [1] Pseudo TTY pairs for client/server transport - and only one half of that code was written, I had to write the other half. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 21:40:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5072F2F79 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:40:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bTB23QBlz3ZyN for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:40:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MZCvh-1jSHF340Ir-00V6eK; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 23:40:25 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:40:24 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601234024.4511a19d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200601224324.af8aecf82db7ad2b5efb4679@bidouilliste.com> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> <20200601221334.c9486a27.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601224324.af8aecf82db7ad2b5efb4679@bidouilliste.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:N8ajI+0zkpad5VidX8+cV6EIv2yYP9da451ZQquTzGd+TWFS/lN RGa95EqyumQ/x17uWew33+TnRUDcHtO37yZ2Qdb/po78JsmdibS/yTFkE+PVH4lxz/sEQaQ jmDtZNk9ejnc6GLNmo2Mbl1F4RGpV204fP82FyQwgrAH7BKAHy8NLzQ16IdhJgRBVx4UIM2 hbFQLe4QbFgd5NT/D2IkQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:1KhBe5xOnr0=:RY/jWW9g/UhKr/9JMGQJiO RVTsJLWYbP3wSHd0tcLIKrCoe/fU8ORB9NMKfkpyrEZpZ35aYAraHHON3SyT680pN+egvVNfY J66gQM1MFu8rYiyeExWM+Wkstbn2qhEcxxRr9Uh+AoggFpj+DDI+F+IA9fgD0V+k5MSx8NJLQ PmfVlOQVyIYiRalM7QJXv0PJCudi0BTxGHpSAsG6Mzg5leXN25bdRlDPeec0Gewg5/T1UMA6u bPAJgLSlaZQYiOawqW2HdIRLZ83yHeiu73+155CZTaQYpUcYJQpNMUj+22wCDHBVkZXEXnyQX ZwhhuzLD5Av7xhWSVB5DuHkuLrsVQnT5vjNi4tkEa8kcvWi45GCaQYWV3hCMDTu6oHQEjLiuY wBtAaT0mSRjh4JXzwHh6qvbgBMJHf6ckqJ2QUUyrYEM6vwHYNCHZ9LEikewrg+YKfvSIWO1mD +nkXL107elYqyfDwYjY6DMxkka/r/6UkarxuG0MKvC9SPzlNlcjsicL9gYl5jykvFJduc4v4g KdrsV2a/vWMcsFvqjy1aWd3m5MRd0mxFtCuXeGrAATKLHsLrmKnkcqmx7I9EMOPitid3GVRuM DqzLQt49udsipUu8IzXyFDzwOaRewr9R1qPViVH9GFVykNxfXHe/yCGZF8wGKiFkyc3+KOc+g +fk7elMPXm16NlIJsL4OFdS/Albv5Nlw1hhaMXaRti8jGpOTo65a6rTPAxkT5c6GMntZW3a1z +OgpYonxlcAKBF2k5ZihVaohKDtDQd5QfRi+HVaAbhl/WHQyLBVHImPwi04BslfvsIMBFUmDC w5H5Q7hRJWMHw3tCmAkLPzVMnchcvBQyZnBEYf/o/Zz5SJOXii/bkCiZFrv3zIbm2RVr0T8 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bTB23QBlz3ZyN X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 21:40:43 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:43:24 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:13:34 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:09:04 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:56:59 +0200 > > > Polytropon wrote: > > > > > > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > > > > > > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > > > > > > > drm_load="YES" > > > > > > That won't work. > > > > > > > In /etc/rc.conf: > > > > > > > > kld_list="amdgpu" > > > > > > This should be enough to have drm.ko loaded as a dependency. > > > > I will comment out the setting in /boot/loader.conf. Currently > > I have the following (interesting) modules: > > > > # kldstat > > Id Refs Address Size Name > > 1 47 0xffffffff80200000 2448f20 kernel > > [...] > > 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 250464 amdgpu.ko <--- > > 5 2 0xffffffff82a72000 76570 drm.ko <--- > > 6 5 0xffffffff82ae9000 10eb0 linuxkpi.ko > > 7 4 0xffffffff82afa000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko > > [...] > > > > So those seem to be loaded correctly. > > > > After reboot, the result is the same: drm.ko has been loaded > > automatically. Thanks for that particular pointer, no need to > > explicitely order things that will be automatically ordered > > anyway. :-) > > > > > > > > > If you have no /dev/dri and no /dev/drm it means that the drm modules > > > wasn't loaded. > > > Look in dmesg for errors and also try to "kldload amdgpu" or "kldload > > > radeonkms" depending on your GPU. > > > > I have /dev/drm/{0...255} owned by root:video (with rw for the > > group, which the user is a member of). The "kldstat" output > > shows that at least drm.ko and amdgpu.ko have been loaded. > > > > I do _not_ have /dev/dri (and card0 therein), which is what > > Xorg.0.log seems to complain about. > > That really weird and I don't really see how that can happen. > Can you share the full dmesg please ? > > > In the "dmesg" output, the following entry is relevant: > > > > [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled. > > > > So this part probably is complete. > > > > The laptop HP dm-1 contains a 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > > model 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]', as reported by "pciconf -lv". > > I have to admit that I'm confused by the "amdgpu" vs. "radeon" > > vs. "ati" naming and drivers stuff, though... > > It is confusing yes. Basically radeonkms is for old card up to > Sea Island generation while amdgpu is for newer card (but also work for > both Southern Island and Sea Island) Okay, as this machine is already "quite old", I should probably not use amdgpu, even though it "somehow works". :-) > Using > https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/#radeongraphicscomputehardware > > if you have a >=GFX8 core use amdgpu. > If you have a GFX6 or GFX7 core use either amdgpu or radeonkms > depending on the result. > Otherwise use radeonkms. The graphics card in the HP Pavilion dm-1 laptop is the following: vgapci0@pci0:0:1:0: class=0x030000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x98021002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]' class = display subclass = VGA >From the X.org resource, "Wrestler" is GFX4, and it is supposed to support OpenGL 4 (so no need for a software renderer). As seen in my previous posts, X tried to load "ati" driver, but when I installed it, I just got a black screen; the "ati" driver is not compatible with the "amdgpu" kernel module. So many moving parts. It's like herding cats... :-) > And that might explain why you don't have /dev/dri as you should use > radeonkms. So the drm module will create the /dev/drm/ nodes but as no > driver registered no /dev/dri node is created. And for X, will I need the xf86-video-ati driver package, or should the built-in "modesetting" miracle do the trick? I'm still unable to understand the new "graphics stack"... In addition to "what graphics hardware do I have", the next important question is "how old is the graphics hardware", which guides the choice for software components (kernel modules, how to activate them, and X driver). This is of course not comparable to the past when you had an ATI card, you installed the ATI driver for X, and all things worked. ;-) > Please share the full pciconf -lv so I can confirm. Of course. Now with the xf86-video-ati drivers installed again, in combination with radeonkms, per /etc/rc.conf: kld_list="/boot/modules/radeonkms.ko" and present in kldstat as: 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 152fd0 radeonkms.ko <--- 5 2 0xffffffff82974000 76570 drm.ko <--- 6 5 0xffffffff829eb000 10eb0 linuxkpi.ko 7 4 0xffffffff829fc000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko 8 2 0xffffffff82a0f000 6d0 debugfs.ko 9 1 0xffffffff82a10000 f181 ttm.ko 10 1 0xffffffff82a20000 12f3 radeon_PALM_pfp_bin.ko 11 1 0xffffffff82a22000 16f1 radeon_PALM_me_bin.ko 12 1 0xffffffff82a24000 d73 radeon_SUMO_rlc_bin.ko 13 1 0xffffffff82a25000 32293 radeon_SUMO_uvd_bin.ko It now seems to work in X. Testing with "glxgears" again is only 60 FPS, except when I use this: % setenv vblank_mode 0 % glxgears I get almost 1300 FPS, which is much better. Also "glxinfo" now reports direct rendering as "yes", and "xdriinfo" also reports screen as "r600", and I can query further options. In the X log file, no error (EE) messages, only a few warnings (WW): [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for scfb [ 19.749] (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support [ 20.768] (WW) RADEON(0): 3 ZaphodHeads crtcs unavailable. Some outputs will stay off. It also seems that I could get rid of VESA, but "modesetting" is not available - instead the "radeon" driver from the "ati" is now in action: [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "scfb" [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa" Thank you! This now seems to _fully_ work. For future reference, I will add the requested system data. The system is a HP Pavilion dm-1 F.12 laptop from 2011, running FreeBSD 12.1-p5 amd64, everything else works, too (wireless, LAN, webcam, HDMI, etc.). Great! =^_^= ********** dmesg ********** ---<>--- Copyright (c) 1992-2019 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 FreeBSD clang version 8.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_801/final 366581) (based on LLVM 8.0.1) VT(vga): resolution 640x480 CPU: AMD E-350 Processor (1596.04-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x500f10 Family=0x14 Model=0x1 Stepping=0 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x802209 AMD Features=0x2e500800 AMD Features2=0x35ff SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=8 TSC: P-state invariant, performance statistics real memory = 4294967296 (4096 MB) avail memory = 3699724288 (3528 MB) Event timer "LAPIC" quality 600 ACPI APIC Table: FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs FreeBSD/SMP: 1 package(s) x 2 core(s) random: unblocking device. ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 4 ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard Launching APs: 1 Timecounter "TSC" frequency 1596035637 Hz quality 800 Cuse v0.1.36 @ /dev/cuse random: entropy device external interface kbd1 at kbdmux0 000.000024 [4335] netmap_init netmap: loaded module [ath_hal] loaded module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (vesa, 0xffffffff8112e0f0, 0) error 19 nexus0 vtvga0: on motherboard cryptosoft0: on motherboard acpi0: on motherboard acpi0: Power Button (fixed) cpu0: on acpi0 hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff irq 0,8 on acpi0 Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 950 Event timer "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 550 Event timer "HPET1" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 450 atrtc0: port 0x70-0x71 on acpi0 atrtc0: registered as a time-of-day clock, resolution 1.000000s Event timer "RTC" frequency 32768 Hz quality 0 attimer0: port 0x40-0x43 on acpi0 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 Event timer "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 100 Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 900 acpi_timer0: <32-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x408-0x40b on acpi0 acpi_ec0: port 0x62,0x66 on acpi0 acpi_button0: on acpi0 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pci0: on pcib0 vgapci0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xe0000000-0xefffffff,0xf0200000-0xf023ffff irq 18 at device 1.0 on pci0 vgapci0: Boot video device hdac0: mem 0xf0244000-0xf0247fff irq 19 at device 1.1 on pci0 pcib1: at device 4.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 re0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xf0004000-0xf0004fff,0xf0000000-0xf0003fff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 re0: Using 1 MSI-X message re0: turning off MSI enable bit. re0: ASPM disabled re0: Chip rev. 0x2c000000 re0: MAC rev. 0x00200000 miibus0: on re0 rgephy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 rgephy0: none, 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 10baseT-FDX-flow, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 100baseTX-FDX-flow, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-master, 1000baseT-FDX, 1000baseT-FDX-master, 1000baseT-FDX-flow, 1000baseT-FDX-flow-master, auto, auto-flow re0: Using defaults for TSO: 65518/35/2048 re0: Ethernet address: 2c:27:d7:aa:d7:98 re0: netmap queues/slots: TX 1/256, RX 1/256 pcib2: at device 5.0 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 ral0: mem 0xf0100000-0xf010ffff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci2 ral0: MAC/BBP RT5390 (rev 0x0502), RF RT5390 (MIMO 1T1R), address c0:f8:da:66:49:82 ahci0: port 0x3118-0x311f,0x3124-0x3127,0x3110-0x3117,0x3120-0x3123,0x3100-0x310f mem 0xf024e000-0xf024e3ff irq 19 at device 17.0 on pci0 ahci0: AHCI v1.20 with 1 6Gbps ports, Port Multiplier supported ahci0: quirks=0x22000 ahcich0: at channel 0 on ahci0 ohci0: mem 0xf024d000-0xf024dfff irq 18 at device 18.0 on pci0 usbus0 on ohci0 usbus0: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 ehci0: mem 0xf024c000-0xf024c0ff irq 17 at device 18.2 on pci0 usbus1: EHCI version 1.0 usbus1 on ehci0 usbus1: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 ohci1: mem 0xf024b000-0xf024bfff irq 18 at device 19.0 on pci0 usbus2 on ohci1 usbus2: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 ehci1: mem 0xf024a000-0xf024a0ff irq 17 at device 19.2 on pci0 usbus3: EHCI version 1.0 usbus3 on ehci1 usbus3: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 hdac1: mem 0xf0240000-0xf0243fff irq 16 at device 20.2 on pci0 isab0: at device 20.3 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 pcib3: at device 20.4 on pci0 pci3: on pcib3 ohci2: mem 0xf0249000-0xf0249fff irq 18 at device 22.0 on pci0 usbus4 on ohci2 usbus4: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 ehci2: mem 0xf0248000-0xf02480ff irq 17 at device 22.2 on pci0 usbus5: EHCI version 1.0 usbus5 on ehci2 usbus5: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 battery0: on acpi0 acpi_acad0: on acpi0 acpi_lid0: on acpi0 acpi_tz0: on acpi0 acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 hwpstate0: on cpu0 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec hdacc0: at cad 0 on hdac0 hdaa0: ada0 at ahcich0 bus 0 scbus0 target 0 lun 0 ada0: ACS-3 ATA SATA 3.x device ada0: Serial Number 50026B738043E958 ada0: 600.000MB/s transfers (SATA 3.x, UDMA6, PIO 512bytes) ada0: Command Queueing enabled ada0: 228936MB (468862128 512 byte sectors) at nid 1 on hdacc0 acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) pcm0: at nid 3 on hdaa0 hdacc1: at cad 0 on hdac1 hdaa1: at nid 1 on hdacc1 pcm1: at nid 13,11 and 12 on hdaa1 pcm2: at nid 17 on hdaa1 ugen4.1: at usbus4 ugen5.1: at usbus5 uhub0: on usbus4 uhub1: on usbus5 ugen3.1: at usbus3 ugen1.1: at usbus1 uhub3: on usbus1 uhub2: on usbus3 ugen2.1: at usbus2 ugen0.1: at usbus0 uhub5: on usbus0 uhub4: on usbus2 Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ada0p2 [rw]... uhub0: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered uhub5: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered uhub4: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered uhub1: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled. uhub3: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered uhub2: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered wlan0: Ethernet address: c0:f8:da:66:49:82 lo0: link state changed to UP ugen4.2: at usbus4 re0: link state changed to DOWN ugen3.2: at usbus3 ugen3.3: at usbus3 umass0 on uhub2 umass0: on usbus3 umass0: SCSI over Bulk-Only; quirks = 0x4000 umass0:1:0: Attached to scbus1 intsmb0: at device 20.0 on pci0 smbus0: on intsmb0 ubt0 on uhub0 ubt0: on usbus4 re0: link state changed to UP WARNING: attempt to domain_add(bluetooth) after domainfinalize() WARNING: attempt to domain_add(netgraph) after domainfinalize() da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI device da0: Serial Number 20090516388200000 da0: 40.000MB/s transfers da0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present da0: quirks=0x2 Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system process `vnlru' to stop... done Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system process `syncer' to stop... Syncing disks, vnodes remaining... 1 0 done Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system thread `bufdaemon' to stop... done Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system thread `bufspacedaemon-0' to stop... done Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system thread `bufspacedaemon-1' to stop... done All buffers synced. Uptime: 8m16s ubt0: detached umass0: detached ugen2.2: at usbus2 ugen2.3: at usbus2 umass0 on uhub4 umass0: on usbus2 umass0: SCSI over Bulk-Only; quirks = 0x4000 umass0:1:0: Attached to scbus1 (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 2 more tries remain (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 1 more tries remain (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 0 more tries remain (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Error 5, Retries exhausted umass0: detached re0: link state changed to DOWN re0: link state changed to UP ---<>--- Copyright (c) 1992-2019 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 FreeBSD clang version 8.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_801/final 366581) (based on LLVM 8.0.1) VT(vga): resolution 640x480 CPU: AMD E-350 Processor (1596.04-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x500f10 Family=0x14 Model=0x1 Stepping=0 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x802209 AMD Features=0x2e500800 AMD Features2=0x35ff SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=8 TSC: P-state invariant, performance statistics real memory = 4294967296 (4096 MB) avail memory = 3699724288 (3528 MB) Event timer "LAPIC" quality 600 ACPI APIC Table: FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs FreeBSD/SMP: 1 package(s) x 2 core(s) random: unblocking device. ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 4 ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard Launching APs: 1 Timecounter "TSC" frequency 1596036360 Hz quality 800 Cuse v0.1.36 @ /dev/cuse random: entropy device external interface kbd1 at kbdmux0 000.000024 [4335] netmap_init netmap: loaded module [ath_hal] loaded module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (vesa, 0xffffffff8112e0f0, 0) error 19 nexus0 vtvga0: on motherboard cryptosoft0: on motherboard acpi0: on motherboard acpi0: Power Button (fixed) cpu0: on acpi0 hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff irq 0,8 on acpi0 Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 950 Event timer "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 550 Event timer "HPET1" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 450 atrtc0: port 0x70-0x71 on acpi0 atrtc0: registered as a time-of-day clock, resolution 1.000000s Event timer "RTC" frequency 32768 Hz quality 0 attimer0: port 0x40-0x43 on acpi0 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 Event timer "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 100 Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 900 acpi_timer0: <32-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x408-0x40b on acpi0 acpi_ec0: port 0x62,0x66 on acpi0 acpi_button0: on acpi0 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pci0: on pcib0 vgapci0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xe0000000-0xefffffff,0xf0200000-0xf023ffff irq 18 at device 1.0 on pci0 vgapci0: Boot video device hdac0: mem 0xf0244000-0xf0247fff irq 19 at device 1.1 on pci0 pcib1: at device 4.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 re0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xf0004000-0xf0004fff,0xf0000000-0xf0003fff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 re0: Using 1 MSI-X message re0: turning off MSI enable bit. re0: ASPM disabled re0: Chip rev. 0x2c000000 re0: MAC rev. 0x00200000 miibus0: on re0 rgephy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 rgephy0: none, 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 10baseT-FDX-flow, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 100baseTX-FDX-flow, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-master, 1000baseT-FDX, 1000baseT-FDX-master, 1000baseT-FDX-flow, 1000baseT-FDX-flow-master, auto, auto-flow re0: Using defaults for TSO: 65518/35/2048 re0: Ethernet address: 2c:27:d7:aa:d7:98 re0: netmap queues/slots: TX 1/256, RX 1/256 pcib2: at device 5.0 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 ral0: mem 0xf0100000-0xf010ffff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci2 ral0: MAC/BBP RT5390 (rev 0x0502), RF RT5390 (MIMO 1T1R), address c0:f8:da:66:49:82 ahci0: port 0x3118-0x311f,0x3124-0x3127,0x3110-0x3117,0x3120-0x3123,0x3100-0x310f mem 0xf024e000-0xf024e3ff irq 19 at device 17.0 on pci0 ahci0: AHCI v1.20 with 1 6Gbps ports, Port Multiplier supported ahci0: quirks=0x22000 ahcich0: at channel 0 on ahci0 ohci0: mem 0xf024d000-0xf024dfff irq 18 at device 18.0 on pci0 usbus0 on ohci0 usbus0: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 ehci0: mem 0xf024c000-0xf024c0ff irq 17 at device 18.2 on pci0 usbus1: EHCI version 1.0 usbus1 on ehci0 usbus1: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 ohci1: mem 0xf024b000-0xf024bfff irq 18 at device 19.0 on pci0 usbus2 on ohci1 usbus2: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 ehci1: mem 0xf024a000-0xf024a0ff irq 17 at device 19.2 on pci0 usbus3: EHCI version 1.0 usbus3 on ehci1 usbus3: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 hdac1: mem 0xf0240000-0xf0243fff irq 16 at device 20.2 on pci0 isab0: at device 20.3 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 pcib3: at device 20.4 on pci0 pci3: on pcib3 ohci2: mem 0xf0249000-0xf0249fff irq 18 at device 22.0 on pci0 usbus4 on ohci2 usbus4: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 ehci2: mem 0xf0248000-0xf02480ff irq 17 at device 22.2 on pci0 usbus5: EHCI version 1.0 usbus5 on ehci2 usbus5: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 battery0: on acpi0 acpi_acad0: on acpi0 acpi_lid0: on acpi0 acpi_tz0: on acpi0 acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 hwpstate0: on cpu0 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec hdacc0: at cad 0 on hdac0 hdaa0: ada0 at ahcich0 bus 0 scbus0 target 0 lun 0 ada0: ACS-3 ATA SATA 3.x device ada0: Serial Number 50026B738043E958 ada0: 600.000MB/s transfers (SATA 3.x, UDMA6, PIO 512bytes) ada0: Command Queueing enabled ada0: 228936MB (468862128 512 byte sectors) at nid 1 on hdacc0 pcm0: at nid 3 on hdaa0 acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) hdacc1: at cad 0 on hdac1 hdaa1: at nid 1 on hdacc1 pcm1: at nid 13,11 and 12 on hdaa1 pcm2: at nid 17 on hdaa1 ugen4.1: at usbus4 uhub0: ugen3.1: at usbus3 on usbus4 uhub1: on usbus3 ugen1.1: at usbus1 ugen0.1: at usbus0 uhub2: on usbus1 uhub3: on usbus0 ugen5.1: at usbus5 uhub4: on usbus5 ugen2.1: at usbus2 Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ada0p2 [rw]... uhub5: on usbus2 uhub0: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered uhub3: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered uhub5: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered uhub4: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered [drm] radeon kernel modesetting enabled. drmn0: on vgapci0 vgapci0: child drmn0 requested pci_enable_io vgapci0: child drmn0 requested pci_enable_io [drm] initializing kernel modesetting (PALM 0x1002:0x9802 0x103C:0x1611 0x00). [drm:radeon_device_init] Unable to find PCI I/O BAR [drm:radeon_atombios_init] Unable to find PCI I/O BAR; using MMIO for ATOM IIO ATOM BIOS: HP drmn0: VRAM: 384M 0x0000000000000000 - 0x0000000017FFFFFF (384M used) drmn0: GTT: 1024M 0x0000000018000000 - 0x0000000057FFFFFF Successfully added WC MTRR for [0xe0000000-0xefffffff]: 0; [drm] Detected VRAM RAM=384M, BAR=256M [drm] RAM width 32bits DDR [TTM] Zone kernel: Available graphics memory: 1869738 kiB [TTM] Initializing pool allocator [drm] radeon: 384M of VRAM memory ready [drm] radeon: 1024M of GTT memory ready. [drm] Loading PALM Microcode uhub2: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered uhub1: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/PALM_pfp.bin drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/PALM_me.bin ugen3.2: at usbus3 ugen4.2: at usbus4 drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/SUMO_rlc.bin [drm] Internal thermal controller without fan control [drm] Found smc ucode version: 0x00010200 [drm] radeon: dpm initialized ugen3.3: at usbus3 umass0 on uhub1 umass0: on usbus3 umass0: SCSI over Bulk-Only; quirks = 0x4000 umass0:1:0: Attached to scbus1 da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI device da0: Serial Number 20090516388200000 da0: 40.000MB/s transfers da0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present da0: quirks=0x2 drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/SUMO_uvd.bin [drm] GART: num cpu pages 262144, num gpu pages 262144 [drm] PCIE GART of 1024M enabled (table at 0x0000000000162000). drmn0: WB enabled drmn0: fence driver on ring 0 use gpu addr 0x0000000018000c00 and cpu addr 0x0xfffff80005528c00 drmn0: fence driver on ring 3 use gpu addr 0x0000000018000c0c and cpu addr 0x0xfffff80005528c0c drmn0: fence driver on ring 5 use gpu addr 0x0000000000072118 and cpu addr 0x0xfffff800e0072118 [drm] Supports vblank timestamp caching Rev 2 (21.10.2013). [drm] Driver supports precise vblank timestamp query. drmn0: radeon: MSI limited to 32-bit drmn0: radeon: using MSI. [drm] radeon: irq initialized. [drm] ring test on 0 succeeded in 1 usecs [drm] ring test on 3 succeeded in 3 usecs [drm] ring test on 5 succeeded in 1 usecs [drm] UVD initialized successfully. [drm] ib test on ring 0 succeeded in 0 usecs [drm] ib test on ring 3 succeeded in 0 usecs [drm] ib test on ring 5 succeeded [drm] Connector LVDS-1: get mode from tunables: [drm] - kern.vt.fb.modes.LVDS-1 [drm] - kern.vt.fb.default_mode [drm] Connector HDMI-A-1: get mode from tunables: [drm] - kern.vt.fb.modes.HDMI-A-1 [drm] - kern.vt.fb.default_mode [drm] Connector VGA-1: get mode from tunables: [drm] - kern.vt.fb.modes.VGA-1 [drm] - kern.vt.fb.default_mode [drm] radeon atom DIG backlight initialized [drm] Radeon Display Connectors [drm] Connector 0: [drm] LVDS-1 [drm] HPD1 [drm] DDC: 0x6430 0x6430 0x6434 0x6434 0x6438 0x6438 0x643c 0x643c [drm] Encoders: [drm] LCD1: INTERNAL_UNIPHY [drm] Connector 1: [drm] HDMI-A-1 [drm] HPD2 [drm] DDC: 0x6440 0x6440 0x6444 0x6444 0x6448 0x6448 0x644c 0x644c [drm] Encoders: [drm] DFP1: INTERNAL_UNIPHY [drm] Connector 2: [drm] VGA-1 [drm] DDC: 0x64d8 0x64d8 0x64dc 0x64dc 0x64e0 0x64e0 0x64e4 0x64e4 [drm] Encoders: [drm] CRT1: INTERNAL_KLDSCP_DAC1 [drm] fb mappable at 0xE0366000 [drm] vram apper at 0xE0000000 [drm] size 4325376 [drm] fb depth is 24 [drm] pitch is 5632 VT: Replacing driver "vga" with new "fb". start FB_INFO: type=11 height=768 width=1366 depth=32 cmsize=16 size=4325376 pbase=0xe0366000 vbase=0xfffff800e0366000 name=drmn0 flags=0x0 stride=5632 bpp=32 cmap[0]=0 cmap[1]=7f0000 cmap[2]=7f00 cmap[3]=c4a000 end FB_INFO drmn0: fb0: radeondrmfb frame buffer device [drm] Initialized radeon 2.50.0 20080528 for drmn0 on minor 0 wlan0: Ethernet address: c0:f8:da:66:49:82 lo0: link state changed to UP re0: link state changed to DOWN re0: link state changed to UP intsmb0: at device 20.0 on pci0 smbus0: on intsmb0 ubt0 on uhub0 ubt0: on usbus4 WARNING: attempt to domain_add(bluetooth) after domainfinalize() WARNING: attempt to domain_add(netgraph) after domainfinalize() ********** dmesg ********** end ********** ********** pciconf -lv ********** hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x15101022 chip=0x15101022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 14h Processor Root Complex' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI vgapci0@pci0:0:1:0: class=0x030000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x98021002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]' class = display subclass = VGA hdac0@pci0:0:1:1: class=0x040300 card=0x1611103c chip=0x13141002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'Wrestler HDMI Audio' class = multimedia subclass = HDA pcib1@pci0:0:4:0: class=0x060400 card=0x12341022 chip=0x15121022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 14h Processor Root Port' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI pcib2@pci0:0:5:0: class=0x060400 card=0x12341022 chip=0x15131022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 14h Processor Root Port' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI ahci0@pci0:0:17:0: class=0x010601 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43911002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 SATA Controller [AHCI mode]' class = mass storage subclass = SATA ohci0@pci0:0:18:0: class=0x0c0310 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43971002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB ehci0@pci0:0:18:2: class=0x0c0320 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43961002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB ohci1@pci0:0:19:0: class=0x0c0310 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43971002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB ehci1@pci0:0:19:2: class=0x0c0320 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43961002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB intsmb0@pci0:0:20:0: class=0x0c0500 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43851002 rev=0x42 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SBx00 SMBus Controller' class = serial bus subclass = SMBus hdac1@pci0:0:20:2: class=0x040300 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43831002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA)' class = multimedia subclass = HDA isab0@pci0:0:20:3: class=0x060100 card=0x1611103c chip=0x439d1002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller' class = bridge subclass = PCI-ISA pcib3@pci0:0:20:4: class=0x060401 card=0x00000000 chip=0x43841002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SBx00 PCI to PCI Bridge' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI ohci2@pci0:0:22:0: class=0x0c0310 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43971002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB ehci2@pci0:0:22:2: class=0x0c0320 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43961002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB hostb1@pci0:0:24:0: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17001022 rev=0x43 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 0' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb2@pci0:0:24:1: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17011022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 1' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb3@pci0:0:24:2: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17021022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 2' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb4@pci0:0:24:3: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17031022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 3' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb5@pci0:0:24:4: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17041022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 4' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb6@pci0:0:24:5: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17181022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 6' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb7@pci0:0:24:6: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17161022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 5' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI hostb8@pci0:0:24:7: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17191022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 7' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI re0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x020000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x816810ec rev=0x06 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.' device = 'RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller' class = network subclass = ethernet ral0@pci0:2:0:0: class=0x028000 card=0x1637103c chip=0x539f1814 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Ralink corp.' device = 'RT5390 [802.11 b/g/n 1T1R G-band PCI Express Single Chip]' class = network ********** pciconf -lv ********** end ********** ********** /var/log/Xorg.0.log ********** [ 19.663] X.Org X Server 1.20.8 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 [ 19.663] Build Operating System: FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 amd64 [ 19.663] Current Operating System: FreeBSD ***REDACTED*** 12.1-RELEASE-p5 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 [ 19.664] Build Date: 14 May 2020 11:04:54AM [ 19.664] [ 19.664] Current version of pixman: 0.38.4 [ 19.664] Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org to make sure that you have the latest version. [ 19.664] Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. [ 19.664] (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Mon Jun 1 22:15:55 2020 [ 19.671] (==) Using config directory: "/usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d" [ 19.671] (==) Using system config directory "/usr/local/share/X11/xorg.conf.d" [ 19.679] (==) No Layout section. Using the first Screen section. [ 19.680] (**) |-->Screen "Screen0" (0) [ 19.680] (**) | |-->Monitor "" [ 19.681] (==) No monitor specified for screen "Screen0". Using a default monitor configuration. [ 19.681] (==) Automatically adding devices [ 19.681] (==) Automatically enabling devices [ 19.681] (==) Not automatically adding GPU devices [ 19.682] (==) Max clients allowed: 256, resource mask: 0x1fffff [ 19.693] (==) FontPath set to: /usr/local/share/fonts/misc/, /usr/local/share/fonts/TTF/, /usr/local/share/fonts/OTF/, /usr/local/share/fonts/Type1/, /usr/local/share/fonts/100dpi/, /usr/local/share/fonts/75dpi/, catalogue:/usr/local/etc/X11/fontpath.d [ 19.693] (==) ModulePath set to "/usr/local/lib/xorg/modules" [ 19.693] (II) The server relies on udev to provide the list of input devices. If no devices become available, reconfigure udev or disable AutoAddDevices. [ 19.693] (II) Loader magic: 0x42e020 [ 19.693] (II) Module ABI versions: [ 19.693] X.Org ANSI C Emulation: 0.4 [ 19.693] X.Org Video Driver: 24.1 [ 19.693] X.Org XInput driver : 24.1 [ 19.693] X.Org Server Extension : 10.0 [ 19.694] (--) PCI:*(0@0:1:0) 1002:9802:103c:1611 rev 0, Mem @ 0xe0000000/268435456, 0xf0200000/262144, I/O @ 0x00003000/256, BIOS @ 0x????????/65536 [ 19.695] (II) LoadModule: "glx" [ 19.697] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so [ 19.722] (II) Module glx: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.722] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.0 [ 19.722] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 10.0 [ 19.722] (==) Matched ati as autoconfigured driver 0 [ 19.722] (==) Matched modesetting as autoconfigured driver 1 [ 19.722] (==) Matched scfb as autoconfigured driver 2 [ 19.722] (==) Matched vesa as autoconfigured driver 3 [ 19.722] (==) Assigned the driver to the xf86ConfigLayout [ 19.722] (II) LoadModule: "ati" [ 19.722] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/ati_drv.so [ 19.723] (II) Module ati: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.723] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 19.1.0 [ 19.723] Module class: X.Org Video Driver [ 19.723] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 [ 19.724] (II) LoadModule: "radeon" [ 19.725] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/radeon_drv.so [ 19.735] (II) Module radeon: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.735] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 19.1.0 [ 19.735] Module class: X.Org Video Driver [ 19.735] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 [ 19.735] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting" [ 19.736] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so [ 19.737] (II) Module modesetting: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.737] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.20.8 [ 19.737] Module class: X.Org Video Driver [ 19.737] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 [ 19.737] (II) LoadModule: "scfb" [ 19.738] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/scfb_drv.so [ 19.738] (II) Module scfb: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.738] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 0.0.5 [ 19.738] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 [ 19.738] (II) LoadModule: "vesa" [ 19.739] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/vesa_drv.so [ 19.740] (II) Module vesa: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.740] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 2.4.0 [ 19.740] Module class: X.Org Video Driver [ 19.740] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 [ 19.740] (II) RADEON: Driver for ATI/AMD Radeon chipsets: ATI Radeon Mobility X600 (M24), ATI FireMV 2400, ATI Radeon Mobility X300 (M24), ATI FireGL M24 GL, ATI Radeon X600 (RV380), ATI FireGL V3200 (RV380), ATI Radeon IGP320 (A3), ATI Radeon IGP330/340/350 (A4), ATI Radeon 9500, ATI Radeon 9600TX, ATI FireGL Z1, ATI Radeon 9800SE, ATI Radeon 9800, ATI FireGL X2, ATI Radeon 9600, ATI Radeon 9600SE, ATI Radeon 9600XT, ATI FireGL T2, ATI Radeon 9650, ATI FireGL RV360, ATI Radeon 7000 IGP (A4+), ATI Radeon 8500 AIW, ATI Radeon IGP320M (U1), ATI Radeon IGP330M/340M/350M (U2), ATI Radeon Mobility 7000 IGP, ATI Radeon 9000/PRO, ATI Radeon 9000, ATI Radeon X800 (R420), ATI Radeon X800PRO (R420), ATI Radeon X800SE (R420), ATI FireGL X3 (R420), ATI Radeon Mobility 9800 (M18), ATI Radeon X800 SE (R420), ATI Radeon X800XT (R420), ATI Radeon X800 VE (R420), ATI Radeon X850 (R480), ATI Radeon X850 XT (R480), ATI Radeon X850 SE (R480), ATI Radeon X850 PRO (R480), ATI Radeon X850 XT PE (R480), ATI Radeon Mobility M7, ATI Mobility FireGL 7800 M7, ATI Radeon Mobility M6, ATI FireGL Mobility 9000 (M9), ATI Radeon Mobility 9000 (M9), ATI Radeon 9700 Pro, ATI Radeon 9700/9500Pro, ATI FireGL X1, ATI Radeon 9800PRO, ATI Radeon 9800XT, ATI Radeon Mobility 9600/9700 (M10/M11), ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 (M10), ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 (M11), ATI FireGL Mobility T2 (M10), ATI FireGL Mobility T2e (M11), ATI Radeon, ATI FireGL 8700/8800, ATI Radeon 8500, ATI Radeon 9100, ATI Radeon 7500, ATI Radeon VE/7000, ATI ES1000, ATI Radeon Mobility X300 (M22), ATI Radeon Mobility X600 SE (M24C), ATI FireGL M22 GL, ATI Radeon X800 (R423), ATI Radeon X800PRO (R423), ATI Radeon X800LE (R423), ATI Radeon X800SE (R423), ATI Radeon X800 XTP (R430), ATI Radeon X800 XL (R430), ATI Radeon X800 SE (R430), ATI Radeon X800 (R430), ATI FireGL V7100 (R423), ATI FireGL V5100 (R423), ATI FireGL unknown (R423), ATI Mobility FireGL V5000 (M26), ATI Mobility Radeon X700 XL (M26), ATI Mobility Radeon X700 (M26), ATI Radeon X550XTX, ATI Radeon 9100 IGP (A5), ATI Radeon Mobility 9100 IGP (U3), ATI Radeon XPRESS 200, ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M, ATI Radeon 9250, ATI Radeon 9200, ATI Radeon 9200SE, ATI FireMV 2200, ATI Radeon X300 (RV370), ATI Radeon X600 (RV370), ATI Radeon X550 (RV370), ATI FireGL V3100 (RV370), ATI FireMV 2200 PCIE (RV370), ATI Radeon Mobility 9200 (M9+), ATI Mobility Radeon X800 XT (M28), ATI Mobility FireGL V5100 (M28), ATI Mobility Radeon X800 (M28), ATI Radeon X850, ATI unknown Radeon / FireGL (R480), ATI Radeon X800XT (R423), ATI FireGL V5000 (RV410), ATI Radeon X700 XT (RV410), ATI Radeon X700 PRO (RV410), ATI Radeon X700 SE (RV410), ATI Radeon X700 (RV410), ATI Radeon X1800, ATI Mobility Radeon X1800 XT, ATI Mobility Radeon X1800, ATI Mobility FireGL V7200, ATI FireGL V7200, ATI FireGL V5300, ATI Mobility FireGL V7100, ATI FireGL V7300, ATI FireGL V7350, ATI Radeon X1600, ATI RV505, ATI Radeon X1300/X1550, ATI Radeon X1550, ATI M54-GL, ATI Mobility Radeon X1400, ATI Radeon X1550 64-bit, ATI Mobility Radeon X1300, ATI Radeon X1300, ATI FireGL V3300, ATI FireGL V3350, ATI Mobility Radeon X1450, ATI Mobility Radeon X2300, ATI Mobility Radeon X1350, ATI FireMV 2250, ATI Radeon X1650, ATI Mobility FireGL V5200, ATI Mobility Radeon X1600, ATI Radeon X1300 XT/X1600 Pro, ATI FireGL V3400, ATI Mobility FireGL V5250, ATI Mobility Radeon X1700, ATI Mobility Radeon X1700 XT, ATI FireGL V5200, ATI Radeon X2300HD, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2300, ATI Radeon X1950, ATI Radeon X1900, ATI AMD Stream Processor, ATI RV560, ATI Mobility Radeon X1900, ATI Radeon X1950 GT, ATI RV570, ATI FireGL V7400, ATI Radeon 9100 PRO IGP, ATI Radeon Mobility 9200 IGP, ATI Radeon X1200, ATI RS740, ATI RS740M, ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2900 Pro, ATI Radeon HD 2900 GT, ATI FireGL V8650, ATI FireGL V8600, ATI FireGL V7600, ATI Radeon 4800 Series, ATI Radeon HD 4870 x2, ATI Radeon HD 4850 x2, ATI FirePro V8750 (FireGL), ATI FirePro V7760 (FireGL), ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4850, ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4850 X2, ATI FirePro RV770, AMD FireStream 9270, AMD FireStream 9250, ATI FirePro V8700 (FireGL), ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4870, ATI Mobility RADEON M98, ATI FirePro M7750, ATI M98, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4650, ATI Radeon RV730 (AGP), ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4670, ATI FirePro M5750, ATI RV730XT [Radeon HD 4670], ATI RADEON E4600, ATI Radeon HD 4600 Series, ATI RV730 PRO [Radeon HD 4650], ATI FirePro V7750 (FireGL), ATI FirePro V5700 (FireGL), ATI FirePro V3750 (FireGL), ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4830, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4850, ATI FirePro M7740, ATI RV740, ATI Radeon HD 4770, ATI Radeon HD 4700 Series, ATI RV610, ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro, ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO AGP, ATI FireGL V4000, ATI Radeon HD 2350, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 XT, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400, ATI RADEON E2400, ATI FireMV 2260, ATI RV670, ATI Radeon HD3870, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3850, ATI Radeon HD3850, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3850 X2, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3870, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3870 X2, ATI Radeon HD3870 X2, ATI FireGL V7700, ATI Radeon HD3690, AMD Firestream 9170, ATI Radeon HD 4550, ATI Radeon RV710, ATI Radeon HD 4350, ATI Mobility Radeon 4300 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon 4500 Series, ATI FirePro RG220, ATI Mobility Radeon 4330, ATI RV630, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT AGP, ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro AGP, ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro, ATI Gemini RV630, ATI Gemini Mobility Radeon HD 2600 XT, ATI FireGL V5600, ATI FireGL V3600, ATI Radeon HD 2600 LE, ATI Mobility FireGL Graphics Processor, ATI Radeon HD 3470, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3430, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3400 Series, ATI Radeon HD 3450, ATI Radeon HD 3430, ATI FirePro V3700, ATI FireMV 2450, ATI Radeon HD 3600 Series, ATI Radeon HD 3650 AGP, ATI Radeon HD 3600 PRO, ATI Radeon HD 3600 XT, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3650, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3670, ATI Mobility FireGL V5700, ATI Mobility FireGL V5725, ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics, ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics, ATI Radeon HD 3300 Graphics, ATI Radeon 3000 Graphics, SUMO, SUMO2, ATI Radeon HD 4200, ATI Radeon 4100, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200, ATI Mobility Radeon 4100, ATI Radeon HD 4290, ATI Radeon HD 4250, AMD Radeon HD 6310 Graphics, AMD Radeon HD 6250 Graphics, AMD Radeon HD 6300 Series Graphics, AMD Radeon HD 6200 Series Graphics, PALM, CYPRESS, ATI FirePro (FireGL) Graphics Adapter, AMD Firestream 9370, AMD Firestream 9350, ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series, ATI Radeon HD 5900 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5800 Series, ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series, ATI Radeon HD 6700 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5570, ATI Radeon HD 5670, ATI Radeon HD 5570, ATI Radeon HD 5500 Series, REDWOOD, ATI Mobility Radeon Graphics, CEDAR, ATI FirePro 2270, ATI Radeon HD 5450, CAYMAN, AMD Radeon HD 6900 Series, AMD Radeon HD 6900M Series, Mobility Radeon HD 6000 Series, BARTS, AMD Radeon HD 6800 Series, AMD Radeon HD 6700 Series, TURKS, CAICOS, ARUBA, TAHITI, PITCAIRN, VERDE, OLAND, HAINAN, BONAIRE, KABINI, MULLINS, KAVERI, HAWAII [ 19.746] (II) modesetting: Driver for Modesetting Kernel Drivers: kms [ 19.746] (II) scfb: driver for wsdisplay framebuffer: scfb [ 19.746] (II) VESA: driver for VESA chipsets: vesa [ 19.747] (--) Using syscons driver with X support (version 2.0) [ 19.747] (--) using VT number 9 [ 19.749] (II) [KMS] Kernel modesetting enabled. [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for scfb [ 19.749] scfb trace: probe start [ 19.749] scfb trace: probe done [ 19.749] (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support [ 19.750] (==) RADEON(0): Depth 24, (--) framebuffer bpp 32 [ 19.750] (II) RADEON(0): Pixel depth = 24 bits stored in 4 bytes (32 bpp pixmaps) [ 19.750] (==) RADEON(0): Default visual is TrueColor [ 19.750] (==) RADEON(0): RGB weight 888 [ 19.750] (II) RADEON(0): Using 8 bits per RGB (8 bit DAC) [ 19.750] (--) RADEON(0): Chipset: "AMD Radeon HD 6310 Graphics" (ChipID = 0x9802) [ 19.751] (II) Loading sub module "fb" [ 19.751] (II) LoadModule: "fb" [ 19.752] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/libfb.so [ 19.754] (II) Module fb: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 19.754] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.0 [ 19.754] ABI class: X.Org ANSI C Emulation, version 0.4 [ 19.754] (II) Loading sub module "dri2" [ 19.754] (II) LoadModule: "dri2" [ 19.754] (II) Module "dri2" already built-in [ 20.651] (II) Loading sub module "glamoregl" [ 20.651] (II) LoadModule: "glamoregl" [ 20.652] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/libglamoregl.so [ 20.711] (II) Module glamoregl: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 20.711] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.1 [ 20.711] ABI class: X.Org ANSI C Emulation, version 0.4 [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): glamor X acceleration enabled on AMD PALM (DRM 2.50.0 / 12.1-RELEASE-p5, LLVM 8.0.1) [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): glamor detected, initialising EGL layer. [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): KMS Color Tiling: enabled [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): KMS Color Tiling 2D: enabled [ 20.761] (==) RADEON(0): TearFree property default: auto [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): KMS Pageflipping: enabled [ 20.762] (II) RADEON(0): Output LVDS has no monitor section [ 20.762] (II) RADEON(0): Output HDMI-0 has no monitor section [ 20.768] (II) RADEON(0): Output VGA-0 has no monitor section [ 20.768] (WW) RADEON(0): 3 ZaphodHeads crtcs unavailable. Some outputs will stay off. [ 20.769] (II) RADEON(0): EDID for output LVDS [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Manufacturer: SEC Model: 3053 Serial#: 0 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Year: 2008 Week: 0 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): EDID Version: 1.3 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Digital Display Input [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Max Image Size [cm]: horiz.: 26 vert.: 14 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Gamma: 2.20 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): No DPMS capabilities specified [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Supported color encodings: RGB 4:4:4 YCrCb 4:4:4 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): First detailed timing is preferred mode [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): redX: 0.580 redY: 0.340 greenX: 0.310 greenY: 0.550 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): blueX: 0.155 blueY: 0.155 whiteX: 0.313 whiteY: 0.329 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Manufacturer's mask: 0 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Supported detailed timing: [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): clock: 69.3 MHz Image Size: 256 x 144 mm [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): h_active: 1366 h_sync: 1414 h_sync_end 1446 h_blank_end 1480 h_border: 0 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): v_active: 768 v_sync: 770 v_sync_end 775 v_blanking: 780 v_border: 0 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Unknown vendor-specific block f [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): SAMSUNG [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 116AT02-H01 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): EDID (in hex): [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00ffffffffffff004ca3533000000000 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00120103801a0e780a87f594574f8c27 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 27505400000001010101010101010101 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 010101010101121b567250000c303020 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 25000090100000190000000f00000000 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00000000001eb4027400000000fe0053 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 414d53554e470a2020202020000000fe [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00313136415430322d4830310a2000b7 [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Printing probed modes for output LVDS [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1366x768"x60.0 69.30 1366 1414 1446 1480 768 770 775 780 -hsync -vsync (46.8 kHz UeP) [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1280x720"x60.0 74.65 1280 1344 1472 1664 720 723 728 748 -hsync +vsync (44.9 kHz) [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1152x768"x59.9 71.95 1152 1216 1328 1504 768 771 781 798 -hsync +vsync (47.8 kHz) [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1024x768"x59.9 63.53 1024 1072 1176 1328 768 771 775 798 -hsync +vsync (47.8 kHz) [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "800x600"x60.0 38.31 800 832 912 1024 600 603 607 624 -hsync +vsync (37.4 kHz) [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "848x480"x59.9 31.65 848 872 952 1056 480 483 493 500 -hsync +vsync (30.0 kHz) [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "720x480"x59.9 26.85 720 744 808 896 480 483 493 500 -hsync +vsync (30.0 kHz) [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "640x480"x59.9 23.98 640 664 720 800 480 483 487 500 -hsync +vsync (30.0 kHz) [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): EDID for output HDMI-0 [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): EDID for output VGA-0 [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output LVDS connected [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output HDMI-0 disconnected [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output VGA-0 disconnected [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Using user preference for initial modes [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output LVDS using initial mode 1366x768 +0+0 [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): mem size init: gart size :3fdde000 vram size: s:18000000 visible:f87a000 [ 20.777] (==) RADEON(0): DPI set to (96, 96) [ 20.777] (==) RADEON(0): Using gamma correction (1.0, 1.0, 1.0) [ 20.777] (II) Loading sub module "ramdac" [ 20.778] (II) LoadModule: "ramdac" [ 20.778] (II) Module "ramdac" already built-in [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" [ 20.778] (II) Unloading modesetting [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "scfb" [ 20.778] (II) Unloading scfb [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa" [ 20.778] (II) Unloading vesa [ 20.780] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2] Setup complete [ 20.780] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2] DRI driver: r600 [ 20.780] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2] VDPAU driver: r600 [ 20.782] (II) RADEON(0): Front buffer size: 4128K [ 20.782] (II) RADEON(0): VRAM usage limit set to 225252K [ 20.786] (II) RADEON(0): SYNC extension fences enabled [ 20.787] (II) RADEON(0): Present extension enabled [ 20.787] (==) RADEON(0): DRI3 enabled [ 20.787] (==) RADEON(0): Backing store enabled [ 20.787] (II) RADEON(0): Direct rendering enabled [ 20.906] (II) RADEON(0): Use GLAMOR acceleration. [ 20.906] (II) RADEON(0): Acceleration enabled [ 20.906] (==) RADEON(0): DPMS enabled [ 20.906] (==) RADEON(0): Silken mouse enabled [ 20.906] (II) RADEON(0): Set up textured video (glamor) [ 20.908] (II) RADEON(0): [XvMC] Associated with GLAMOR Textured Video. [ 20.909] (II) RADEON(0): [XvMC] Extension initialized. [ 20.913] (II) Initializing extension Generic Event Extension [ 20.914] (II) Initializing extension SHAPE [ 20.915] (II) Initializing extension MIT-SHM [ 20.916] (II) Initializing extension XInputExtension [ 20.918] (II) Initializing extension XTEST [ 20.919] (II) Initializing extension BIG-REQUESTS [ 20.920] (II) Initializing extension SYNC [ 20.920] (II) Initializing extension XKEYBOARD [ 20.922] (II) Initializing extension XC-MISC [ 20.923] (II) Initializing extension SECURITY [ 20.923] (II) Initializing extension XFIXES [ 20.924] (II) Initializing extension RENDER [ 20.925] (II) Initializing extension RANDR [ 20.926] (II) Initializing extension COMPOSITE [ 20.928] (II) Initializing extension DAMAGE [ 20.928] (II) Initializing extension MIT-SCREEN-SAVER [ 20.929] (II) Initializing extension DOUBLE-BUFFER [ 20.930] (II) Initializing extension RECORD [ 20.930] (II) Initializing extension DPMS [ 20.931] (II) Initializing extension Present [ 20.932] (II) Initializing extension DRI3 [ 20.932] (II) Initializing extension X-Resource [ 20.933] (II) Initializing extension XVideo [ 20.934] (II) Initializing extension XVideo-MotionCompensation [ 20.934] (II) Initializing extension GLX [ 20.948] (II) AIGLX: Loaded and initialized r600 [ 20.948] (II) GLX: Initialized DRI2 GL provider for screen 0 [ 20.948] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-VidModeExtension [ 20.948] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-DGA [ 20.949] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-DRI [ 20.950] (II) Initializing extension DRI2 [ 20.955] (II) RADEON(0): Setting screen physical size to 361 x 203 [ 21.306] (II) config/udev: Adding input device System keyboard multiplexer (/dev/input/event0) [ 21.307] (**) System keyboard multiplexer: Applying InputClass "Evdev keyboard" [ 21.307] (**) System keyboard multiplexer: Applying InputClass "libinput keyboard catchall" [ 21.307] (II) LoadModule: "libinput" [ 21.309] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/input/libinput_drv.so [ 21.356] (II) Module libinput: vendor="X.Org Foundation" [ 21.356] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 0.29.0 [ 21.356] Module class: X.Org XInput Driver [ 21.356] ABI class: X.Org XInput driver, version 24.1 [ 21.356] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'System keyboard multiplexer' [ 21.356] (**) System keyboard multiplexer: always reports core events [ 21.356] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event0" [ 21.357] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" [ 21.377] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard [ 21.377] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: device is a keyboard [ 21.379] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: device removed [ 21.379] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event0" [ 21.379] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "System keyboard multiplexer" (type: KEYBOARD, id 6) [ 21.379] (**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev" [ 21.467] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard [ 21.467] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: device is a keyboard [ 21.468] (II) config/udev: Adding input device System mouse (/dev/input/event1) [ 21.468] (**) System mouse: Applying InputClass "libinput pointer catchall" [ 21.468] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'System mouse' [ 21.468] (**) System mouse: always reports core events [ 21.468] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event1" [ 21.468] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" [ 21.470] (II) event1 - System mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse [ 21.471] (II) event1 - System mouse: device is a pointer [ 21.471] (II) event1 - System mouse: device removed [ 21.471] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event1" [ 21.471] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "System mouse" (type: MOUSE, id 7) [ 21.472] (**) Option "AccelerationScheme" "none" [ 21.472] (**) System mouse: (accel) selected scheme none/0 [ 21.472] (**) System mouse: (accel) acceleration factor: 2.000 [ 21.472] (**) System mouse: (accel) acceleration threshold: 4 [ 21.474] (II) event1 - System mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse [ 21.474] (II) event1 - System mouse: device is a pointer [ 21.475] (II) config/udev: Adding input device AT keyboard (/dev/input/event2) [ 21.475] (**) AT keyboard: Applying InputClass "Evdev keyboard" [ 21.475] (**) AT keyboard: Applying InputClass "libinput keyboard catchall" [ 21.475] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'AT keyboard' [ 21.475] (**) AT keyboard: always reports core events [ 21.475] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event2" [ 21.475] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" [ 21.477] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard [ 21.477] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: device is a keyboard [ 21.478] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: device removed [ 21.478] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event2" [ 21.478] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "AT keyboard" (type: KEYBOARD, id 8) [ 21.478] (**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev" [ 21.480] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard [ 21.480] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: device is a keyboard [ 21.482] (II) config/udev: Adding input device Generic PS/2 mouse (/dev/input/event3) [ 21.482] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: Applying InputClass "libinput pointer catchall" [ 21.482] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'Generic PS/2 mouse' [ 21.482] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: always reports core events [ 21.482] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event3" [ 21.482] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" [ 21.503] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse [ 21.504] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: device is a pointer [ 21.504] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: device removed [ 21.544] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event3" [ 21.544] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Generic PS/2 mouse" (type: MOUSE, id 9) [ 21.545] (**) Option "AccelerationScheme" "none" [ 21.545] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: (accel) selected scheme none/0 [ 21.545] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: (accel) acceleration factor: 2.000 [ 21.545] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: (accel) acceleration threshold: 4 [ 21.568] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse [ 21.569] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: device is a pointer [ 21.809] (II) RADEON(0): EDID vendor "SEC", prod id 12371 [ 21.809] (II) RADEON(0): Printing DDC gathered Modelines: [ 21.809] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1366x768"x0.0 69.30 1366 1414 1446 1480 768 770 775 780 -hsync -vsync (46.8 kHz eP) ********** /var/log/Xorg.0.log ********** end ********** -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 21:47:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FE22F3B26 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:47:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mx.blih.net (mx.blih.net [212.83.155.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.blih.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bTKk2p1zz3cBY for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:47:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; s=mx; t=1591048039; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Ec1ExlLTXSjjFC24LHm7oi3zt70RCzebu46PQAcBRzo=; b=swbUODi4mByUVbZ0va3ptZf+PNzD95+7GFfcHH7iPrIZzkTvhOp0CzJyiWw0xdWsmAAE5l BUWzRCRRl9lym7sztuRHEl6bTr73C+dC0GKHwPUzRfAeN2XDNUEJSgL3xrcx75/WTiQB2i yFLReBx1L/isxdvZWJWsahNQfCihtPU= Received: from amy.home (lfbn-idf2-1-900-181.w86-238.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.238.131.181]) by mx.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 8816100c (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:47:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:47:18 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Polytropon Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200601234718.6db5f0a62f6b42b53fa23b51@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: <20200601234024.4511a19d.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> <20200601221334.c9486a27.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601224324.af8aecf82db7ad2b5efb4679@bidouilliste.com> <20200601234024.4511a19d.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bTKk2p1zz3cBY X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mx header.b=swbUODi4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=bidouilliste.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.155.74 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.09 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mx]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; SH_EMAIL_DBL_DONT_QUERY_IPS(0.00)[0.0.0.0:email]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[bidouilliste.com,none]; DBL_PROHIBIT(0.00)[0.0.0.0:email]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.60)[-0.600]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.985]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.128.0/19, country:FR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 21:47:24 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:40:24 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:43:24 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:13:34 +0200 > > Polytropon wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:09:04 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:56:59 +0200 > > > > Polytropon wrote: > > > > > > > > > So at the moment, I have this (as explained in the documentation): > > > > > > > > > > In /boot/loader.conf: > > > > > > > > > > drm_load="YES" > > > > > > > > That won't work. > > > > > > > > > In /etc/rc.conf: > > > > > > > > > > kld_list="amdgpu" > > > > > > > > This should be enough to have drm.ko loaded as a dependency. > > > > > > I will comment out the setting in /boot/loader.conf. Currently > > > I have the following (interesting) modules: > > > > > > # kldstat > > > Id Refs Address Size Name > > > 1 47 0xffffffff80200000 2448f20 kernel > > > [...] > > > 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 250464 amdgpu.ko <--- > > > 5 2 0xffffffff82a72000 76570 drm.ko <--- > > > 6 5 0xffffffff82ae9000 10eb0 linuxkpi.ko > > > 7 4 0xffffffff82afa000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko > > > [...] > > > > > > So those seem to be loaded correctly. > > > > > > After reboot, the result is the same: drm.ko has been loaded > > > automatically. Thanks for that particular pointer, no need to > > > explicitely order things that will be automatically ordered > > > anyway. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have no /dev/dri and no /dev/drm it means that the drm modules > > > > wasn't loaded. > > > > Look in dmesg for errors and also try to "kldload amdgpu" or "kldload > > > > radeonkms" depending on your GPU. > > > > > > I have /dev/drm/{0...255} owned by root:video (with rw for the > > > group, which the user is a member of). The "kldstat" output > > > shows that at least drm.ko and amdgpu.ko have been loaded. > > > > > > I do _not_ have /dev/dri (and card0 therein), which is what > > > Xorg.0.log seems to complain about. > > > > That really weird and I don't really see how that can happen. > > Can you share the full dmesg please ? > > > > > In the "dmesg" output, the following entry is relevant: > > > > > > [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled. > > > > > > So this part probably is complete. > > > > > > The laptop HP dm-1 contains a 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > > > model 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]', as reported by "pciconf -lv". > > > I have to admit that I'm confused by the "amdgpu" vs. "radeon" > > > vs. "ati" naming and drivers stuff, though... > > > > It is confusing yes. Basically radeonkms is for old card up to > > Sea Island generation while amdgpu is for newer card (but also work for > > both Southern Island and Sea Island) > > Okay, as this machine is already "quite old", I should > probably not use amdgpu, even though it "somehow works". :-) The module was loaded but didn't do anything. > > > > Using > > https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/#radeongraphicscomputehardware > > > > if you have a >=GFX8 core use amdgpu. > > If you have a GFX6 or GFX7 core use either amdgpu or radeonkms > > depending on the result. > > Otherwise use radeonkms. > > The graphics card in the HP Pavilion dm-1 laptop is the > following: > > vgapci0@pci0:0:1:0: > class=0x030000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x98021002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]' > class = display > subclass = VGA > > From the X.org resource, "Wrestler" is GFX4, and it is > supposed to support OpenGL 4 (so no need for a software > renderer). > > As seen in my previous posts, X tried to load "ati" driver, > but when I installed it, I just got a black screen; the "ati" > driver is not compatible with the "amdgpu" kernel module. > So many moving parts. It's like herding cats... :-) > > > > > And that might explain why you don't have /dev/dri as you should use > > radeonkms. So the drm module will create the /dev/drm/ nodes but as no > > driver registered no /dev/dri node is created. > > And for X, will I need the xf86-video-ati driver package, or > should the built-in "modesetting" miracle do the trick? I'm > still unable to understand the new "graphics stack"... For AMD cards it really depend on the hardware, I suggest you try both and see which one works better. > In addition to "what graphics hardware do I have", the next > important question is "how old is the graphics hardware", > which guides the choice for software components (kernel > modules, how to activate them, and X driver). This is of > course not comparable to the past when you had an ATI card, > you installed the ATI driver for X, and all things worked. ;-) > > > > > Please share the full pciconf -lv so I can confirm. > > Of course. > > > > Now with the xf86-video-ati drivers installed again, in combination > with radeonkms, per /etc/rc.conf: > > kld_list="/boot/modules/radeonkms.ko" > > and present in kldstat as: > > 4 1 0xffffffff82821000 152fd0 radeonkms.ko <--- > 5 2 0xffffffff82974000 76570 drm.ko <--- > 6 5 0xffffffff829eb000 10eb0 linuxkpi.ko > 7 4 0xffffffff829fc000 12f30 linuxkpi_gplv2.ko > 8 2 0xffffffff82a0f000 6d0 debugfs.ko > 9 1 0xffffffff82a10000 f181 ttm.ko > 10 1 0xffffffff82a20000 12f3 radeon_PALM_pfp_bin.ko > 11 1 0xffffffff82a22000 16f1 radeon_PALM_me_bin.ko > 12 1 0xffffffff82a24000 d73 radeon_SUMO_rlc_bin.ko > 13 1 0xffffffff82a25000 32293 radeon_SUMO_uvd_bin.ko > > It now seems to work in X. Testing with "glxgears" again is only 60 FPS, > except when I use this: > > % setenv vblank_mode 0 > % glxgears > > I get almost 1300 FPS, which is much better. I don't know why it is better, vsync is needed for good rendering, no need to render a frame 20 times if it will be only draw once on the screen. > Also "glxinfo" > now reports direct rendering as "yes", and "xdriinfo" also > reports screen as "r600", and I can query further options. > > In the X log file, no error (EE) messages, only a few > warnings (WW): > > [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting > [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for scfb > [ 19.749] (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support > [ 20.768] (WW) RADEON(0): 3 ZaphodHeads crtcs unavailable. Some outputs will stay off. > > It also seems that I could get rid of VESA, but "modesetting" > is not available - instead the "radeon" driver from the "ati" > is now in action: > > [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" > [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "scfb" > [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa" > > Thank you! This now seems to _fully_ work. Glad I could help. > > > For future reference, I will add the requested system data. > The system is a HP Pavilion dm-1 F.12 laptop from 2011, > running FreeBSD 12.1-p5 amd64, everything else works, too > (wireless, LAN, webcam, HDMI, etc.). > > Great! =^_^= > > > > > > ********** dmesg ********** > > ---<>--- > Copyright (c) 1992-2019 The FreeBSD Project. > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. > FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 > FreeBSD clang version 8.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_801/final 366581) (based on LLVM 8.0.1) > VT(vga): resolution 640x480 > CPU: AMD E-350 Processor (1596.04-MHz K8-class CPU) > Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x500f10 Family=0x14 Model=0x1 Stepping=0 > Features=0x178bfbff > Features2=0x802209 > AMD Features=0x2e500800 > AMD Features2=0x35ff > SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=8 > TSC: P-state invariant, performance statistics > real memory = 4294967296 (4096 MB) > avail memory = 3699724288 (3528 MB) > Event timer "LAPIC" quality 600 > ACPI APIC Table: > FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs > FreeBSD/SMP: 1 package(s) x 2 core(s) > random: unblocking device. > ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 4 > ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard > Launching APs: 1 > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 1596035637 Hz quality 800 > Cuse v0.1.36 @ /dev/cuse > random: entropy device external interface > kbd1 at kbdmux0 > 000.000024 [4335] netmap_init netmap: loaded module > [ath_hal] loaded > module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (vesa, 0xffffffff8112e0f0, 0) error 19 > nexus0 > vtvga0: on motherboard > cryptosoft0: on motherboard > acpi0: on motherboard > acpi0: Power Button (fixed) > cpu0: on acpi0 > hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff irq 0,8 on acpi0 > Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 950 > Event timer "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 550 > Event timer "HPET1" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 450 > atrtc0: port 0x70-0x71 on acpi0 > atrtc0: registered as a time-of-day clock, resolution 1.000000s > Event timer "RTC" frequency 32768 Hz quality 0 > attimer0: port 0x40-0x43 on acpi0 > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 > Event timer "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 100 > Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 900 > acpi_timer0: <32-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x408-0x40b on acpi0 > acpi_ec0: port 0x62,0x66 on acpi0 > acpi_button0: on acpi0 > pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 > pci0: on pcib0 > vgapci0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xe0000000-0xefffffff,0xf0200000-0xf023ffff irq 18 at device 1.0 on pci0 > vgapci0: Boot video device > hdac0: mem 0xf0244000-0xf0247fff irq 19 at device 1.1 on pci0 > pcib1: at device 4.0 on pci0 > pci1: on pcib1 > re0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xf0004000-0xf0004fff,0xf0000000-0xf0003fff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 > re0: Using 1 MSI-X message > re0: turning off MSI enable bit. > re0: ASPM disabled > re0: Chip rev. 0x2c000000 > re0: MAC rev. 0x00200000 > miibus0: on re0 > rgephy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 > rgephy0: none, 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 10baseT-FDX-flow, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 100baseTX-FDX-flow, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-master, 1000baseT-FDX, 1000baseT-FDX-master, 1000baseT-FDX-flow, 1000baseT-FDX-flow-master, auto, auto-flow > re0: Using defaults for TSO: 65518/35/2048 > re0: Ethernet address: 2c:27:d7:aa:d7:98 > re0: netmap queues/slots: TX 1/256, RX 1/256 > pcib2: at device 5.0 on pci0 > pci2: on pcib2 > ral0: mem 0xf0100000-0xf010ffff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci2 > ral0: MAC/BBP RT5390 (rev 0x0502), RF RT5390 (MIMO 1T1R), address c0:f8:da:66:49:82 > ahci0: port 0x3118-0x311f,0x3124-0x3127,0x3110-0x3117,0x3120-0x3123,0x3100-0x310f mem 0xf024e000-0xf024e3ff irq 19 at device 17.0 on pci0 > ahci0: AHCI v1.20 with 1 6Gbps ports, Port Multiplier supported > ahci0: quirks=0x22000 > ahcich0: at channel 0 on ahci0 > ohci0: mem 0xf024d000-0xf024dfff irq 18 at device 18.0 on pci0 > usbus0 on ohci0 > usbus0: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 > ehci0: mem 0xf024c000-0xf024c0ff irq 17 at device 18.2 on pci0 > usbus1: EHCI version 1.0 > usbus1 on ehci0 > usbus1: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 > ohci1: mem 0xf024b000-0xf024bfff irq 18 at device 19.0 on pci0 > usbus2 on ohci1 > usbus2: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 > ehci1: mem 0xf024a000-0xf024a0ff irq 17 at device 19.2 on pci0 > usbus3: EHCI version 1.0 > usbus3 on ehci1 > usbus3: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 > hdac1: mem 0xf0240000-0xf0243fff irq 16 at device 20.2 on pci0 > isab0: at device 20.3 on pci0 > isa0: on isab0 > pcib3: at device 20.4 on pci0 > pci3: on pcib3 > ohci2: mem 0xf0249000-0xf0249fff irq 18 at device 22.0 on pci0 > usbus4 on ohci2 > usbus4: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 > ehci2: mem 0xf0248000-0xf02480ff irq 17 at device 22.2 on pci0 > usbus5: EHCI version 1.0 > usbus5 on ehci2 > usbus5: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 > battery0: on acpi0 > acpi_acad0: on acpi0 > acpi_lid0: on acpi0 > acpi_tz0: on acpi0 > acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) > atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 > atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 > kbd0 at atkbd0 > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > hwpstate0: on cpu0 > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > hdacc0: at cad 0 on hdac0 > hdaa0: ada0 at ahcich0 bus 0 scbus0 target 0 lun 0 > ada0: ACS-3 ATA SATA 3.x device > ada0: Serial Number 50026B738043E958 > ada0: 600.000MB/s transfers (SATA 3.x, UDMA6, PIO 512bytes) > ada0: Command Queueing enabled > ada0: 228936MB (468862128 512 byte sectors) > at nid 1 on hdacc0 > acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) > pcm0: at nid 3 on hdaa0 > hdacc1: at cad 0 on hdac1 > hdaa1: at nid 1 on hdacc1 > pcm1: at nid 13,11 and 12 on hdaa1 > pcm2: at nid 17 on hdaa1 > ugen4.1: at usbus4 > ugen5.1: at usbus5 > uhub0: on usbus4 > uhub1: on usbus5 > ugen3.1: at usbus3 > ugen1.1: at usbus1 > uhub3: on usbus1 > uhub2: on usbus3 > ugen2.1: at usbus2 > ugen0.1: at usbus0 > uhub5: on usbus0 > uhub4: on usbus2 > Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ada0p2 [rw]... > uhub0: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered > uhub5: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > uhub4: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > uhub1: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered > [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled. > uhub3: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > uhub2: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > wlan0: Ethernet address: c0:f8:da:66:49:82 > lo0: link state changed to UP > ugen4.2: at usbus4 > re0: link state changed to DOWN > ugen3.2: at usbus3 > ugen3.3: at usbus3 > umass0 on uhub2 > umass0: on usbus3 > umass0: SCSI over Bulk-Only; quirks = 0x4000 > umass0:1:0: Attached to scbus1 > intsmb0: at device 20.0 on pci0 > smbus0: on intsmb0 > ubt0 on uhub0 > ubt0: on usbus4 > re0: link state changed to UP > WARNING: attempt to domain_add(bluetooth) after domainfinalize() > WARNING: attempt to domain_add(netgraph) after domainfinalize() > da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 > da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI device > da0: Serial Number 20090516388200000 > da0: 40.000MB/s transfers > da0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present > da0: quirks=0x2 > Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system process `vnlru' to stop... done > Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system process `syncer' to stop... > Syncing disks, vnodes remaining... 1 0 done > Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system thread `bufdaemon' to stop... done > Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system thread `bufspacedaemon-0' to stop... done > Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system thread `bufspacedaemon-1' to stop... done > All buffers synced. > Uptime: 8m16s > ubt0: detached > umass0: detached > ugen2.2: at usbus2 > ugen2.3: at usbus2 > umass0 on uhub4 > umass0: on usbus2 > umass0: SCSI over Bulk-Only; quirks = 0x4000 > umass0:1:0: Attached to scbus1 > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 2 more tries remain > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 1 more tries remain > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Retrying command, 0 more tries remain > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): INQUIRY. CDB: 12 00 00 00 24 00 > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): CAM status: CCB request completed with an error > (probe0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): Error 5, Retries exhausted > umass0: detached > re0: link state changed to DOWN > re0: link state changed to UP > ---<>--- > Copyright (c) 1992-2019 The FreeBSD Project. > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. > FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 > FreeBSD clang version 8.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_801/final 366581) (based on LLVM 8.0.1) > VT(vga): resolution 640x480 > CPU: AMD E-350 Processor (1596.04-MHz K8-class CPU) > Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x500f10 Family=0x14 Model=0x1 Stepping=0 > Features=0x178bfbff > Features2=0x802209 > AMD Features=0x2e500800 > AMD Features2=0x35ff > SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=8 > TSC: P-state invariant, performance statistics > real memory = 4294967296 (4096 MB) > avail memory = 3699724288 (3528 MB) > Event timer "LAPIC" quality 600 > ACPI APIC Table: > FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs > FreeBSD/SMP: 1 package(s) x 2 core(s) > random: unblocking device. > ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 4 > ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard > Launching APs: 1 > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 1596036360 Hz quality 800 > Cuse v0.1.36 @ /dev/cuse > random: entropy device external interface > kbd1 at kbdmux0 > 000.000024 [4335] netmap_init netmap: loaded module > [ath_hal] loaded > module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (vesa, 0xffffffff8112e0f0, 0) error 19 > nexus0 > vtvga0: on motherboard > cryptosoft0: on motherboard > acpi0: on motherboard > acpi0: Power Button (fixed) > cpu0: on acpi0 > hpet0: iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff irq 0,8 on acpi0 > Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 950 > Event timer "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 550 > Event timer "HPET1" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 450 > atrtc0: port 0x70-0x71 on acpi0 > atrtc0: registered as a time-of-day clock, resolution 1.000000s > Event timer "RTC" frequency 32768 Hz quality 0 > attimer0: port 0x40-0x43 on acpi0 > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 > Event timer "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 100 > Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 900 > acpi_timer0: <32-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x408-0x40b on acpi0 > acpi_ec0: port 0x62,0x66 on acpi0 > acpi_button0: on acpi0 > pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 > pci0: on pcib0 > vgapci0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xe0000000-0xefffffff,0xf0200000-0xf023ffff irq 18 at device 1.0 on pci0 > vgapci0: Boot video device > hdac0: mem 0xf0244000-0xf0247fff irq 19 at device 1.1 on pci0 > pcib1: at device 4.0 on pci0 > pci1: on pcib1 > re0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xf0004000-0xf0004fff,0xf0000000-0xf0003fff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 > re0: Using 1 MSI-X message > re0: turning off MSI enable bit. > re0: ASPM disabled > re0: Chip rev. 0x2c000000 > re0: MAC rev. 0x00200000 > miibus0: on re0 > rgephy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 > rgephy0: none, 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 10baseT-FDX-flow, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 100baseTX-FDX-flow, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-master, 1000baseT-FDX, 1000baseT-FDX-master, 1000baseT-FDX-flow, 1000baseT-FDX-flow-master, auto, auto-flow > re0: Using defaults for TSO: 65518/35/2048 > re0: Ethernet address: 2c:27:d7:aa:d7:98 > re0: netmap queues/slots: TX 1/256, RX 1/256 > pcib2: at device 5.0 on pci0 > pci2: on pcib2 > ral0: mem 0xf0100000-0xf010ffff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci2 > ral0: MAC/BBP RT5390 (rev 0x0502), RF RT5390 (MIMO 1T1R), address c0:f8:da:66:49:82 > ahci0: port 0x3118-0x311f,0x3124-0x3127,0x3110-0x3117,0x3120-0x3123,0x3100-0x310f mem 0xf024e000-0xf024e3ff irq 19 at device 17.0 on pci0 > ahci0: AHCI v1.20 with 1 6Gbps ports, Port Multiplier supported > ahci0: quirks=0x22000 > ahcich0: at channel 0 on ahci0 > ohci0: mem 0xf024d000-0xf024dfff irq 18 at device 18.0 on pci0 > usbus0 on ohci0 > usbus0: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 > ehci0: mem 0xf024c000-0xf024c0ff irq 17 at device 18.2 on pci0 > usbus1: EHCI version 1.0 > usbus1 on ehci0 > usbus1: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 > ohci1: mem 0xf024b000-0xf024bfff irq 18 at device 19.0 on pci0 > usbus2 on ohci1 > usbus2: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 > ehci1: mem 0xf024a000-0xf024a0ff irq 17 at device 19.2 on pci0 > usbus3: EHCI version 1.0 > usbus3 on ehci1 > usbus3: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 > hdac1: mem 0xf0240000-0xf0243fff irq 16 at device 20.2 on pci0 > isab0: at device 20.3 on pci0 > isa0: on isab0 > pcib3: at device 20.4 on pci0 > pci3: on pcib3 > ohci2: mem 0xf0249000-0xf0249fff irq 18 at device 22.0 on pci0 > usbus4 on ohci2 > usbus4: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 > ehci2: mem 0xf0248000-0xf02480ff irq 17 at device 22.2 on pci0 > usbus5: EHCI version 1.0 > usbus5 on ehci2 > usbus5: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 > battery0: on acpi0 > acpi_acad0: on acpi0 > acpi_lid0: on acpi0 > acpi_tz0: on acpi0 > acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) > atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 > atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 > kbd0 at atkbd0 > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > hwpstate0: on cpu0 > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > hdacc0: at cad 0 on hdac0 > hdaa0: ada0 at ahcich0 bus 0 scbus0 target 0 lun 0 > ada0: ACS-3 ATA SATA 3.x device > ada0: Serial Number 50026B738043E958 > ada0: 600.000MB/s transfers (SATA 3.x, UDMA6, PIO 512bytes) > ada0: Command Queueing enabled > ada0: 228936MB (468862128 512 byte sectors) > at nid 1 on hdacc0 > pcm0: at nid 3 on hdaa0 > acpi_tz0: _ACx value is absurd, ignored (-273.1C) > hdacc1: at cad 0 on hdac1 > hdaa1: at nid 1 on hdacc1 > pcm1: at nid 13,11 and 12 on hdaa1 > pcm2: at nid 17 on hdaa1 > ugen4.1: at usbus4 > uhub0: ugen3.1: at usbus3 > on usbus4 > uhub1: on usbus3 > ugen1.1: at usbus1 > ugen0.1: at usbus0 > uhub2: on usbus1 > uhub3: on usbus0 > ugen5.1: at usbus5 > uhub4: on usbus5 > ugen2.1: at usbus2 > Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ada0p2 [rw]... > uhub5: on usbus2 > uhub0: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered > uhub3: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > uhub5: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > uhub4: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered > [drm] radeon kernel modesetting enabled. > drmn0: on vgapci0 > vgapci0: child drmn0 requested pci_enable_io > vgapci0: child drmn0 requested pci_enable_io > [drm] initializing kernel modesetting (PALM 0x1002:0x9802 0x103C:0x1611 0x00). > [drm:radeon_device_init] Unable to find PCI I/O BAR > [drm:radeon_atombios_init] Unable to find PCI I/O BAR; using MMIO for ATOM IIO > ATOM BIOS: HP > drmn0: VRAM: 384M 0x0000000000000000 - 0x0000000017FFFFFF (384M used) > drmn0: GTT: 1024M 0x0000000018000000 - 0x0000000057FFFFFF > Successfully added WC MTRR for [0xe0000000-0xefffffff]: 0; > [drm] Detected VRAM RAM=384M, BAR=256M > [drm] RAM width 32bits DDR > [TTM] Zone kernel: Available graphics memory: 1869738 kiB > [TTM] Initializing pool allocator > [drm] radeon: 384M of VRAM memory ready > [drm] radeon: 1024M of GTT memory ready. > [drm] Loading PALM Microcode > uhub2: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > uhub1: 5 ports with 5 removable, self powered > drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/PALM_pfp.bin > drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/PALM_me.bin > ugen3.2: at usbus3 > ugen4.2: at usbus4 > drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/SUMO_rlc.bin > [drm] Internal thermal controller without fan control > [drm] Found smc ucode version: 0x00010200 > [drm] radeon: dpm initialized > ugen3.3: at usbus3 > umass0 on uhub1 > umass0: on usbus3 > umass0: SCSI over Bulk-Only; quirks = 0x4000 > umass0:1:0: Attached to scbus1 > da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 > da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI device > da0: Serial Number 20090516388200000 > da0: 40.000MB/s transfers > da0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present > da0: quirks=0x2 > drmn0: successfully loaded firmware image with name: radeon/SUMO_uvd.bin > [drm] GART: num cpu pages 262144, num gpu pages 262144 > [drm] PCIE GART of 1024M enabled (table at 0x0000000000162000). > drmn0: WB enabled > drmn0: fence driver on ring 0 use gpu addr 0x0000000018000c00 and cpu addr 0x0xfffff80005528c00 > drmn0: fence driver on ring 3 use gpu addr 0x0000000018000c0c and cpu addr 0x0xfffff80005528c0c > drmn0: fence driver on ring 5 use gpu addr 0x0000000000072118 and cpu addr 0x0xfffff800e0072118 > [drm] Supports vblank timestamp caching Rev 2 (21.10.2013). > [drm] Driver supports precise vblank timestamp query. > drmn0: radeon: MSI limited to 32-bit > drmn0: radeon: using MSI. > [drm] radeon: irq initialized. > [drm] ring test on 0 succeeded in 1 usecs > [drm] ring test on 3 succeeded in 3 usecs > [drm] ring test on 5 succeeded in 1 usecs > [drm] UVD initialized successfully. > [drm] ib test on ring 0 succeeded in 0 usecs > [drm] ib test on ring 3 succeeded in 0 usecs > [drm] ib test on ring 5 succeeded > [drm] Connector LVDS-1: get mode from tunables: > [drm] - kern.vt.fb.modes.LVDS-1 > [drm] - kern.vt.fb.default_mode > [drm] Connector HDMI-A-1: get mode from tunables: > [drm] - kern.vt.fb.modes.HDMI-A-1 > [drm] - kern.vt.fb.default_mode > [drm] Connector VGA-1: get mode from tunables: > [drm] - kern.vt.fb.modes.VGA-1 > [drm] - kern.vt.fb.default_mode > [drm] radeon atom DIG backlight initialized > [drm] Radeon Display Connectors > [drm] Connector 0: > [drm] LVDS-1 > [drm] HPD1 > [drm] DDC: 0x6430 0x6430 0x6434 0x6434 0x6438 0x6438 0x643c 0x643c > [drm] Encoders: > [drm] LCD1: INTERNAL_UNIPHY > [drm] Connector 1: > [drm] HDMI-A-1 > [drm] HPD2 > [drm] DDC: 0x6440 0x6440 0x6444 0x6444 0x6448 0x6448 0x644c 0x644c > [drm] Encoders: > [drm] DFP1: INTERNAL_UNIPHY > [drm] Connector 2: > [drm] VGA-1 > [drm] DDC: 0x64d8 0x64d8 0x64dc 0x64dc 0x64e0 0x64e0 0x64e4 0x64e4 > [drm] Encoders: > [drm] CRT1: INTERNAL_KLDSCP_DAC1 > [drm] fb mappable at 0xE0366000 > [drm] vram apper at 0xE0000000 > [drm] size 4325376 > [drm] fb depth is 24 > [drm] pitch is 5632 > VT: Replacing driver "vga" with new "fb". > start FB_INFO: > type=11 height=768 width=1366 depth=32 > cmsize=16 size=4325376 > pbase=0xe0366000 vbase=0xfffff800e0366000 > name=drmn0 flags=0x0 stride=5632 bpp=32 > cmap[0]=0 cmap[1]=7f0000 cmap[2]=7f00 cmap[3]=c4a000 > end FB_INFO > drmn0: fb0: radeondrmfb frame buffer device > [drm] Initialized radeon 2.50.0 20080528 for drmn0 on minor 0 > wlan0: Ethernet address: c0:f8:da:66:49:82 > lo0: link state changed to UP > re0: link state changed to DOWN > re0: link state changed to UP > intsmb0: at device 20.0 on pci0 > smbus0: on intsmb0 > ubt0 on uhub0 > ubt0: on usbus4 > WARNING: attempt to domain_add(bluetooth) after domainfinalize() > WARNING: attempt to domain_add(netgraph) after domainfinalize() > > ********** dmesg ********** end ********** > > > > > ********** pciconf -lv ********** > > hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x15101022 chip=0x15101022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 14h Processor Root Complex' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > vgapci0@pci0:0:1:0: class=0x030000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x98021002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'Wrestler [Radeon HD 6310]' > class = display > subclass = VGA > hdac0@pci0:0:1:1: class=0x040300 card=0x1611103c chip=0x13141002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'Wrestler HDMI Audio' > class = multimedia > subclass = HDA > pcib1@pci0:0:4:0: class=0x060400 card=0x12341022 chip=0x15121022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x01 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 14h Processor Root Port' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-PCI > pcib2@pci0:0:5:0: class=0x060400 card=0x12341022 chip=0x15131022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x01 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 14h Processor Root Port' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-PCI > ahci0@pci0:0:17:0: class=0x010601 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43911002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 SATA Controller [AHCI mode]' > class = mass storage > subclass = SATA > ohci0@pci0:0:18:0: class=0x0c0310 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43971002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > ehci0@pci0:0:18:2: class=0x0c0320 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43961002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > ohci1@pci0:0:19:0: class=0x0c0310 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43971002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > ehci1@pci0:0:19:2: class=0x0c0320 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43961002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > intsmb0@pci0:0:20:0: class=0x0c0500 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43851002 rev=0x42 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SBx00 SMBus Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = SMBus > hdac1@pci0:0:20:2: class=0x040300 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43831002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA)' > class = multimedia > subclass = HDA > isab0@pci0:0:20:3: class=0x060100 card=0x1611103c chip=0x439d1002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-ISA > pcib3@pci0:0:20:4: class=0x060401 card=0x00000000 chip=0x43841002 rev=0x40 hdr=0x01 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SBx00 PCI to PCI Bridge' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-PCI > ohci2@pci0:0:22:0: class=0x0c0310 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43971002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > ehci2@pci0:0:22:2: class=0x0c0320 card=0x1611103c chip=0x43961002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > hostb1@pci0:0:24:0: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17001022 rev=0x43 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 0' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb2@pci0:0:24:1: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17011022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 1' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb3@pci0:0:24:2: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17021022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 2' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb4@pci0:0:24:3: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17031022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 3' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb5@pci0:0:24:4: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17041022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 4' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb6@pci0:0:24:5: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17181022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 6' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb7@pci0:0:24:6: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17161022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 5' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > hostb8@pci0:0:24:7: class=0x060000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x17191022 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'Family 12h/14h Processor Function 7' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > re0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x020000 card=0x1611103c chip=0x816810ec rev=0x06 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.' > device = 'RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller' > class = network > subclass = ethernet > ral0@pci0:2:0:0: class=0x028000 card=0x1637103c chip=0x539f1814 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Ralink corp.' > device = 'RT5390 [802.11 b/g/n 1T1R G-band PCI Express Single Chip]' > class = network > > ********** pciconf -lv ********** end ********** > > > > > ********** /var/log/Xorg.0.log ********** > > [ 19.663] > X.Org X Server 1.20.8 > X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 > [ 19.663] Build Operating System: FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 amd64 > [ 19.663] Current Operating System: FreeBSD ***REDACTED*** 12.1-RELEASE-p5 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 > [ 19.664] Build Date: 14 May 2020 11:04:54AM > [ 19.664] > [ 19.664] Current version of pixman: 0.38.4 > [ 19.664] Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org > to make sure that you have the latest version. > [ 19.664] Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, > (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, > (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. > [ 19.664] (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Mon Jun 1 22:15:55 2020 > [ 19.671] (==) Using config directory: "/usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d" > [ 19.671] (==) Using system config directory "/usr/local/share/X11/xorg.conf.d" > [ 19.679] (==) No Layout section. Using the first Screen section. > [ 19.680] (**) |-->Screen "Screen0" (0) > [ 19.680] (**) | |-->Monitor "" > [ 19.681] (==) No monitor specified for screen "Screen0". > Using a default monitor configuration. > [ 19.681] (==) Automatically adding devices > [ 19.681] (==) Automatically enabling devices > [ 19.681] (==) Not automatically adding GPU devices > [ 19.682] (==) Max clients allowed: 256, resource mask: 0x1fffff > [ 19.693] (==) FontPath set to: > /usr/local/share/fonts/misc/, > /usr/local/share/fonts/TTF/, > /usr/local/share/fonts/OTF/, > /usr/local/share/fonts/Type1/, > /usr/local/share/fonts/100dpi/, > /usr/local/share/fonts/75dpi/, > catalogue:/usr/local/etc/X11/fontpath.d > [ 19.693] (==) ModulePath set to "/usr/local/lib/xorg/modules" > [ 19.693] (II) The server relies on udev to provide the list of input devices. > If no devices become available, reconfigure udev or disable AutoAddDevices. > [ 19.693] (II) Loader magic: 0x42e020 > [ 19.693] (II) Module ABI versions: > [ 19.693] X.Org ANSI C Emulation: 0.4 > [ 19.693] X.Org Video Driver: 24.1 > [ 19.693] X.Org XInput driver : 24.1 > [ 19.693] X.Org Server Extension : 10.0 > [ 19.694] (--) PCI:*(0@0:1:0) 1002:9802:103c:1611 rev 0, Mem @ 0xe0000000/268435456, 0xf0200000/262144, I/O @ 0x00003000/256, BIOS @ 0x????????/65536 > [ 19.695] (II) LoadModule: "glx" > [ 19.697] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so > [ 19.722] (II) Module glx: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.722] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.0 > [ 19.722] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 10.0 > [ 19.722] (==) Matched ati as autoconfigured driver 0 > [ 19.722] (==) Matched modesetting as autoconfigured driver 1 > [ 19.722] (==) Matched scfb as autoconfigured driver 2 > [ 19.722] (==) Matched vesa as autoconfigured driver 3 > [ 19.722] (==) Assigned the driver to the xf86ConfigLayout > [ 19.722] (II) LoadModule: "ati" > [ 19.722] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/ati_drv.so > [ 19.723] (II) Module ati: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.723] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 19.1.0 > [ 19.723] Module class: X.Org Video Driver > [ 19.723] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 > [ 19.724] (II) LoadModule: "radeon" > [ 19.725] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/radeon_drv.so > [ 19.735] (II) Module radeon: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.735] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 19.1.0 > [ 19.735] Module class: X.Org Video Driver > [ 19.735] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 > [ 19.735] (II) LoadModule: "modesetting" > [ 19.736] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/modesetting_drv.so > [ 19.737] (II) Module modesetting: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.737] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.20.8 > [ 19.737] Module class: X.Org Video Driver > [ 19.737] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 > [ 19.737] (II) LoadModule: "scfb" > [ 19.738] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/scfb_drv.so > [ 19.738] (II) Module scfb: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.738] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 0.0.5 > [ 19.738] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 > [ 19.738] (II) LoadModule: "vesa" > [ 19.739] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/vesa_drv.so > [ 19.740] (II) Module vesa: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.740] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 2.4.0 > [ 19.740] Module class: X.Org Video Driver > [ 19.740] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 24.1 > [ 19.740] (II) RADEON: Driver for ATI/AMD Radeon chipsets: > ATI Radeon Mobility X600 (M24), ATI FireMV 2400, > ATI Radeon Mobility X300 (M24), ATI FireGL M24 GL, > ATI Radeon X600 (RV380), ATI FireGL V3200 (RV380), > ATI Radeon IGP320 (A3), ATI Radeon IGP330/340/350 (A4), > ATI Radeon 9500, ATI Radeon 9600TX, ATI FireGL Z1, ATI Radeon 9800SE, > ATI Radeon 9800, ATI FireGL X2, ATI Radeon 9600, ATI Radeon 9600SE, > ATI Radeon 9600XT, ATI FireGL T2, ATI Radeon 9650, ATI FireGL RV360, > ATI Radeon 7000 IGP (A4+), ATI Radeon 8500 AIW, > ATI Radeon IGP320M (U1), ATI Radeon IGP330M/340M/350M (U2), > ATI Radeon Mobility 7000 IGP, ATI Radeon 9000/PRO, ATI Radeon 9000, > ATI Radeon X800 (R420), ATI Radeon X800PRO (R420), > ATI Radeon X800SE (R420), ATI FireGL X3 (R420), > ATI Radeon Mobility 9800 (M18), ATI Radeon X800 SE (R420), > ATI Radeon X800XT (R420), ATI Radeon X800 VE (R420), > ATI Radeon X850 (R480), ATI Radeon X850 XT (R480), > ATI Radeon X850 SE (R480), ATI Radeon X850 PRO (R480), > ATI Radeon X850 XT PE (R480), ATI Radeon Mobility M7, > ATI Mobility FireGL 7800 M7, ATI Radeon Mobility M6, > ATI FireGL Mobility 9000 (M9), ATI Radeon Mobility 9000 (M9), > ATI Radeon 9700 Pro, ATI Radeon 9700/9500Pro, ATI FireGL X1, > ATI Radeon 9800PRO, ATI Radeon 9800XT, > ATI Radeon Mobility 9600/9700 (M10/M11), > ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 (M10), ATI Radeon Mobility 9600 (M11), > ATI FireGL Mobility T2 (M10), ATI FireGL Mobility T2e (M11), > ATI Radeon, ATI FireGL 8700/8800, ATI Radeon 8500, ATI Radeon 9100, > ATI Radeon 7500, ATI Radeon VE/7000, ATI ES1000, > ATI Radeon Mobility X300 (M22), ATI Radeon Mobility X600 SE (M24C), > ATI FireGL M22 GL, ATI Radeon X800 (R423), ATI Radeon X800PRO (R423), > ATI Radeon X800LE (R423), ATI Radeon X800SE (R423), > ATI Radeon X800 XTP (R430), ATI Radeon X800 XL (R430), > ATI Radeon X800 SE (R430), ATI Radeon X800 (R430), > ATI FireGL V7100 (R423), ATI FireGL V5100 (R423), > ATI FireGL unknown (R423), ATI Mobility FireGL V5000 (M26), > ATI Mobility Radeon X700 XL (M26), ATI Mobility Radeon X700 (M26), > ATI Radeon X550XTX, ATI Radeon 9100 IGP (A5), > ATI Radeon Mobility 9100 IGP (U3), ATI Radeon XPRESS 200, > ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M, ATI Radeon 9250, ATI Radeon 9200, > ATI Radeon 9200SE, ATI FireMV 2200, ATI Radeon X300 (RV370), > ATI Radeon X600 (RV370), ATI Radeon X550 (RV370), > ATI FireGL V3100 (RV370), ATI FireMV 2200 PCIE (RV370), > ATI Radeon Mobility 9200 (M9+), ATI Mobility Radeon X800 XT (M28), > ATI Mobility FireGL V5100 (M28), ATI Mobility Radeon X800 (M28), > ATI Radeon X850, ATI unknown Radeon / FireGL (R480), > ATI Radeon X800XT (R423), ATI FireGL V5000 (RV410), > ATI Radeon X700 XT (RV410), ATI Radeon X700 PRO (RV410), > ATI Radeon X700 SE (RV410), ATI Radeon X700 (RV410), > ATI Radeon X1800, ATI Mobility Radeon X1800 XT, > ATI Mobility Radeon X1800, ATI Mobility FireGL V7200, > ATI FireGL V7200, ATI FireGL V5300, ATI Mobility FireGL V7100, > ATI FireGL V7300, ATI FireGL V7350, ATI Radeon X1600, ATI RV505, > ATI Radeon X1300/X1550, ATI Radeon X1550, ATI M54-GL, > ATI Mobility Radeon X1400, ATI Radeon X1550 64-bit, > ATI Mobility Radeon X1300, ATI Radeon X1300, ATI FireGL V3300, > ATI FireGL V3350, ATI Mobility Radeon X1450, > ATI Mobility Radeon X2300, ATI Mobility Radeon X1350, > ATI FireMV 2250, ATI Radeon X1650, ATI Mobility FireGL V5200, > ATI Mobility Radeon X1600, ATI Radeon X1300 XT/X1600 Pro, > ATI FireGL V3400, ATI Mobility FireGL V5250, > ATI Mobility Radeon X1700, ATI Mobility Radeon X1700 XT, > ATI FireGL V5200, ATI Radeon X2300HD, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2300, > ATI Radeon X1950, ATI Radeon X1900, ATI AMD Stream Processor, > ATI RV560, ATI Mobility Radeon X1900, ATI Radeon X1950 GT, ATI RV570, > ATI FireGL V7400, ATI Radeon 9100 PRO IGP, > ATI Radeon Mobility 9200 IGP, ATI Radeon X1200, ATI RS740, > ATI RS740M, ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2900 Pro, > ATI Radeon HD 2900 GT, ATI FireGL V8650, ATI FireGL V8600, > ATI FireGL V7600, ATI Radeon 4800 Series, ATI Radeon HD 4870 x2, > ATI Radeon HD 4850 x2, ATI FirePro V8750 (FireGL), > ATI FirePro V7760 (FireGL), ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4850, > ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4850 X2, ATI FirePro RV770, > AMD FireStream 9270, AMD FireStream 9250, ATI FirePro V8700 (FireGL), > ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4870, ATI Mobility RADEON M98, > ATI FirePro M7750, ATI M98, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4650, > ATI Radeon RV730 (AGP), ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4670, > ATI FirePro M5750, ATI RV730XT [Radeon HD 4670], ATI RADEON E4600, > ATI Radeon HD 4600 Series, ATI RV730 PRO [Radeon HD 4650], > ATI FirePro V7750 (FireGL), ATI FirePro V5700 (FireGL), > ATI FirePro V3750 (FireGL), ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4830, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4850, ATI FirePro M7740, ATI RV740, > ATI Radeon HD 4770, ATI Radeon HD 4700 Series, ATI RV610, > ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro, > ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO AGP, ATI FireGL V4000, ATI Radeon HD 2350, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 XT, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400, > ATI RADEON E2400, ATI FireMV 2260, ATI RV670, ATI Radeon HD3870, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3850, ATI Radeon HD3850, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3850 X2, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3870, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3870 X2, ATI Radeon HD3870 X2, > ATI FireGL V7700, ATI Radeon HD3690, AMD Firestream 9170, > ATI Radeon HD 4550, ATI Radeon RV710, ATI Radeon HD 4350, > ATI Mobility Radeon 4300 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon 4500 Series, > ATI FirePro RG220, ATI Mobility Radeon 4330, ATI RV630, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600 XT, > ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT AGP, ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro AGP, > ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT, ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro, ATI Gemini RV630, > ATI Gemini Mobility Radeon HD 2600 XT, ATI FireGL V5600, > ATI FireGL V3600, ATI Radeon HD 2600 LE, > ATI Mobility FireGL Graphics Processor, ATI Radeon HD 3470, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3430, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3400 Series, > ATI Radeon HD 3450, ATI Radeon HD 3430, ATI FirePro V3700, > ATI FireMV 2450, ATI Radeon HD 3600 Series, ATI Radeon HD 3650 AGP, > ATI Radeon HD 3600 PRO, ATI Radeon HD 3600 XT, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3650, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3670, > ATI Mobility FireGL V5700, ATI Mobility FireGL V5725, > ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics, ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics, > ATI Radeon HD 3300 Graphics, ATI Radeon 3000 Graphics, SUMO, SUMO2, > ATI Radeon HD 4200, ATI Radeon 4100, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200, > ATI Mobility Radeon 4100, ATI Radeon HD 4290, ATI Radeon HD 4250, > AMD Radeon HD 6310 Graphics, AMD Radeon HD 6250 Graphics, > AMD Radeon HD 6300 Series Graphics, > AMD Radeon HD 6200 Series Graphics, PALM, CYPRESS, > ATI FirePro (FireGL) Graphics Adapter, AMD Firestream 9370, > AMD Firestream 9350, ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series, > ATI Radeon HD 5900 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5800 Series, > ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series, ATI Radeon HD 6700 Series, > ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 Series, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5570, > ATI Radeon HD 5670, ATI Radeon HD 5570, ATI Radeon HD 5500 Series, > REDWOOD, ATI Mobility Radeon Graphics, CEDAR, ATI FirePro 2270, > ATI Radeon HD 5450, CAYMAN, AMD Radeon HD 6900 Series, > AMD Radeon HD 6900M Series, Mobility Radeon HD 6000 Series, BARTS, > AMD Radeon HD 6800 Series, AMD Radeon HD 6700 Series, TURKS, CAICOS, > ARUBA, TAHITI, PITCAIRN, VERDE, OLAND, HAINAN, BONAIRE, KABINI, > MULLINS, KAVERI, HAWAII > [ 19.746] (II) modesetting: Driver for Modesetting Kernel Drivers: kms > [ 19.746] (II) scfb: driver for wsdisplay framebuffer: scfb > [ 19.746] (II) VESA: driver for VESA chipsets: vesa > [ 19.747] (--) Using syscons driver with X support (version 2.0) > [ 19.747] (--) using VT number 9 > > [ 19.749] (II) [KMS] Kernel modesetting enabled. > [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting > [ 19.749] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for scfb > [ 19.749] scfb trace: probe start > [ 19.749] scfb trace: probe done > [ 19.749] (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support > [ 19.750] (==) RADEON(0): Depth 24, (--) framebuffer bpp 32 > [ 19.750] (II) RADEON(0): Pixel depth = 24 bits stored in 4 bytes (32 bpp pixmaps) > [ 19.750] (==) RADEON(0): Default visual is TrueColor > [ 19.750] (==) RADEON(0): RGB weight 888 > [ 19.750] (II) RADEON(0): Using 8 bits per RGB (8 bit DAC) > [ 19.750] (--) RADEON(0): Chipset: "AMD Radeon HD 6310 Graphics" (ChipID = 0x9802) > [ 19.751] (II) Loading sub module "fb" > [ 19.751] (II) LoadModule: "fb" > [ 19.752] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/libfb.so > [ 19.754] (II) Module fb: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 19.754] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.0 > [ 19.754] ABI class: X.Org ANSI C Emulation, version 0.4 > [ 19.754] (II) Loading sub module "dri2" > [ 19.754] (II) LoadModule: "dri2" > [ 19.754] (II) Module "dri2" already built-in > [ 20.651] (II) Loading sub module "glamoregl" > [ 20.651] (II) LoadModule: "glamoregl" > [ 20.652] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/libglamoregl.so > [ 20.711] (II) Module glamoregl: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 20.711] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 1.0.1 > [ 20.711] ABI class: X.Org ANSI C Emulation, version 0.4 > [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): glamor X acceleration enabled on AMD PALM (DRM 2.50.0 / 12.1-RELEASE-p5, LLVM 8.0.1) > [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): glamor detected, initialising EGL layer. > [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): KMS Color Tiling: enabled > [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): KMS Color Tiling 2D: enabled > [ 20.761] (==) RADEON(0): TearFree property default: auto > [ 20.761] (II) RADEON(0): KMS Pageflipping: enabled > [ 20.762] (II) RADEON(0): Output LVDS has no monitor section > [ 20.762] (II) RADEON(0): Output HDMI-0 has no monitor section > [ 20.768] (II) RADEON(0): Output VGA-0 has no monitor section > [ 20.768] (WW) RADEON(0): 3 ZaphodHeads crtcs unavailable. Some outputs will stay off. > [ 20.769] (II) RADEON(0): EDID for output LVDS > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Manufacturer: SEC Model: 3053 Serial#: 0 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Year: 2008 Week: 0 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): EDID Version: 1.3 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Digital Display Input > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Max Image Size [cm]: horiz.: 26 vert.: 14 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Gamma: 2.20 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): No DPMS capabilities specified > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Supported color encodings: RGB 4:4:4 YCrCb 4:4:4 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): First detailed timing is preferred mode > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): redX: 0.580 redY: 0.340 greenX: 0.310 greenY: 0.550 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): blueX: 0.155 blueY: 0.155 whiteX: 0.313 whiteY: 0.329 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Manufacturer's mask: 0 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Supported detailed timing: > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): clock: 69.3 MHz Image Size: 256 x 144 mm > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): h_active: 1366 h_sync: 1414 h_sync_end 1446 h_blank_end 1480 h_border: 0 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): v_active: 768 v_sync: 770 v_sync_end 775 v_blanking: 780 v_border: 0 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Unknown vendor-specific block f > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): SAMSUNG > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 116AT02-H01 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): EDID (in hex): > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00ffffffffffff004ca3533000000000 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00120103801a0e780a87f594574f8c27 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 27505400000001010101010101010101 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 010101010101121b567250000c303020 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 25000090100000190000000f00000000 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00000000001eb4027400000000fe0053 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 414d53554e470a2020202020000000fe > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): 00313136415430322d4830310a2000b7 > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Printing probed modes for output LVDS > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1366x768"x60.0 69.30 1366 1414 1446 1480 768 770 775 780 -hsync -vsync (46.8 kHz UeP) > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1280x720"x60.0 74.65 1280 1344 1472 1664 720 723 728 748 -hsync +vsync (44.9 kHz) > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1152x768"x59.9 71.95 1152 1216 1328 1504 768 771 781 798 -hsync +vsync (47.8 kHz) > [ 20.770] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1024x768"x59.9 63.53 1024 1072 1176 1328 768 771 775 798 -hsync +vsync (47.8 kHz) > [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "800x600"x60.0 38.31 800 832 912 1024 600 603 607 624 -hsync +vsync (37.4 kHz) > [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "848x480"x59.9 31.65 848 872 952 1056 480 483 493 500 -hsync +vsync (30.0 kHz) > [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "720x480"x59.9 26.85 720 744 808 896 480 483 493 500 -hsync +vsync (30.0 kHz) > [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "640x480"x59.9 23.98 640 664 720 800 480 483 487 500 -hsync +vsync (30.0 kHz) > [ 20.771] (II) RADEON(0): EDID for output HDMI-0 > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): EDID for output VGA-0 > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output LVDS connected > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output HDMI-0 disconnected > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output VGA-0 disconnected > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Using user preference for initial modes > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): Output LVDS using initial mode 1366x768 +0+0 > [ 20.777] (II) RADEON(0): mem size init: gart size :3fdde000 vram size: s:18000000 visible:f87a000 > [ 20.777] (==) RADEON(0): DPI set to (96, 96) > [ 20.777] (==) RADEON(0): Using gamma correction (1.0, 1.0, 1.0) > [ 20.777] (II) Loading sub module "ramdac" > [ 20.778] (II) LoadModule: "ramdac" > [ 20.778] (II) Module "ramdac" already built-in > [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "modesetting" > [ 20.778] (II) Unloading modesetting > [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "scfb" > [ 20.778] (II) Unloading scfb > [ 20.778] (II) UnloadModule: "vesa" > [ 20.778] (II) Unloading vesa > [ 20.780] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2] Setup complete > [ 20.780] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2] DRI driver: r600 > [ 20.780] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2] VDPAU driver: r600 > [ 20.782] (II) RADEON(0): Front buffer size: 4128K > [ 20.782] (II) RADEON(0): VRAM usage limit set to 225252K > [ 20.786] (II) RADEON(0): SYNC extension fences enabled > [ 20.787] (II) RADEON(0): Present extension enabled > [ 20.787] (==) RADEON(0): DRI3 enabled > [ 20.787] (==) RADEON(0): Backing store enabled > [ 20.787] (II) RADEON(0): Direct rendering enabled > [ 20.906] (II) RADEON(0): Use GLAMOR acceleration. > [ 20.906] (II) RADEON(0): Acceleration enabled > [ 20.906] (==) RADEON(0): DPMS enabled > [ 20.906] (==) RADEON(0): Silken mouse enabled > [ 20.906] (II) RADEON(0): Set up textured video (glamor) > [ 20.908] (II) RADEON(0): [XvMC] Associated with GLAMOR Textured Video. > [ 20.909] (II) RADEON(0): [XvMC] Extension initialized. > [ 20.913] (II) Initializing extension Generic Event Extension > [ 20.914] (II) Initializing extension SHAPE > [ 20.915] (II) Initializing extension MIT-SHM > [ 20.916] (II) Initializing extension XInputExtension > [ 20.918] (II) Initializing extension XTEST > [ 20.919] (II) Initializing extension BIG-REQUESTS > [ 20.920] (II) Initializing extension SYNC > [ 20.920] (II) Initializing extension XKEYBOARD > [ 20.922] (II) Initializing extension XC-MISC > [ 20.923] (II) Initializing extension SECURITY > [ 20.923] (II) Initializing extension XFIXES > [ 20.924] (II) Initializing extension RENDER > [ 20.925] (II) Initializing extension RANDR > [ 20.926] (II) Initializing extension COMPOSITE > [ 20.928] (II) Initializing extension DAMAGE > [ 20.928] (II) Initializing extension MIT-SCREEN-SAVER > [ 20.929] (II) Initializing extension DOUBLE-BUFFER > [ 20.930] (II) Initializing extension RECORD > [ 20.930] (II) Initializing extension DPMS > [ 20.931] (II) Initializing extension Present > [ 20.932] (II) Initializing extension DRI3 > [ 20.932] (II) Initializing extension X-Resource > [ 20.933] (II) Initializing extension XVideo > [ 20.934] (II) Initializing extension XVideo-MotionCompensation > [ 20.934] (II) Initializing extension GLX > [ 20.948] (II) AIGLX: Loaded and initialized r600 > [ 20.948] (II) GLX: Initialized DRI2 GL provider for screen 0 > [ 20.948] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-VidModeExtension > [ 20.948] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-DGA > [ 20.949] (II) Initializing extension XFree86-DRI > [ 20.950] (II) Initializing extension DRI2 > [ 20.955] (II) RADEON(0): Setting screen physical size to 361 x 203 > [ 21.306] (II) config/udev: Adding input device System keyboard multiplexer (/dev/input/event0) > [ 21.307] (**) System keyboard multiplexer: Applying InputClass "Evdev keyboard" > [ 21.307] (**) System keyboard multiplexer: Applying InputClass "libinput keyboard catchall" > [ 21.307] (II) LoadModule: "libinput" > [ 21.309] (II) Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/input/libinput_drv.so > [ 21.356] (II) Module libinput: vendor="X.Org Foundation" > [ 21.356] compiled for 1.20.8, module version = 0.29.0 > [ 21.356] Module class: X.Org XInput Driver > [ 21.356] ABI class: X.Org XInput driver, version 24.1 > [ 21.356] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'System keyboard multiplexer' > [ 21.356] (**) System keyboard multiplexer: always reports core events > [ 21.356] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event0" > [ 21.357] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" > [ 21.377] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard > [ 21.377] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: device is a keyboard > [ 21.379] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: device removed > [ 21.379] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event0" > [ 21.379] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "System keyboard multiplexer" (type: KEYBOARD, id 6) > [ 21.379] (**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev" > [ 21.467] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard > [ 21.467] (II) event0 - System keyboard multiplexer: device is a keyboard > [ 21.468] (II) config/udev: Adding input device System mouse (/dev/input/event1) > [ 21.468] (**) System mouse: Applying InputClass "libinput pointer catchall" > [ 21.468] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'System mouse' > [ 21.468] (**) System mouse: always reports core events > [ 21.468] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event1" > [ 21.468] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" > [ 21.470] (II) event1 - System mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse > [ 21.471] (II) event1 - System mouse: device is a pointer > [ 21.471] (II) event1 - System mouse: device removed > [ 21.471] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event1" > [ 21.471] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "System mouse" (type: MOUSE, id 7) > [ 21.472] (**) Option "AccelerationScheme" "none" > [ 21.472] (**) System mouse: (accel) selected scheme none/0 > [ 21.472] (**) System mouse: (accel) acceleration factor: 2.000 > [ 21.472] (**) System mouse: (accel) acceleration threshold: 4 > [ 21.474] (II) event1 - System mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse > [ 21.474] (II) event1 - System mouse: device is a pointer > [ 21.475] (II) config/udev: Adding input device AT keyboard (/dev/input/event2) > [ 21.475] (**) AT keyboard: Applying InputClass "Evdev keyboard" > [ 21.475] (**) AT keyboard: Applying InputClass "libinput keyboard catchall" > [ 21.475] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'AT keyboard' > [ 21.475] (**) AT keyboard: always reports core events > [ 21.475] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event2" > [ 21.475] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" > [ 21.477] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard > [ 21.477] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: device is a keyboard > [ 21.478] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: device removed > [ 21.478] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event2" > [ 21.478] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "AT keyboard" (type: KEYBOARD, id 8) > [ 21.478] (**) Option "xkb_rules" "evdev" > [ 21.480] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: is tagged by udev as: Keyboard > [ 21.480] (II) event2 - AT keyboard: device is a keyboard > [ 21.482] (II) config/udev: Adding input device Generic PS/2 mouse (/dev/input/event3) > [ 21.482] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: Applying InputClass "libinput pointer catchall" > [ 21.482] (II) Using input driver 'libinput' for 'Generic PS/2 mouse' > [ 21.482] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: always reports core events > [ 21.482] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/input/event3" > [ 21.482] (**) Option "_source" "server/udev" > [ 21.503] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse > [ 21.504] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: device is a pointer > [ 21.504] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: device removed > [ 21.544] (**) Option "config_info" "udev:/dev/input/event3" > [ 21.544] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Generic PS/2 mouse" (type: MOUSE, id 9) > [ 21.545] (**) Option "AccelerationScheme" "none" > [ 21.545] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: (accel) selected scheme none/0 > [ 21.545] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: (accel) acceleration factor: 2.000 > [ 21.545] (**) Generic PS/2 mouse: (accel) acceleration threshold: 4 > [ 21.568] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: is tagged by udev as: Mouse > [ 21.569] (II) event3 - Generic PS/2 mouse: device is a pointer > [ 21.809] (II) RADEON(0): EDID vendor "SEC", prod id 12371 > [ 21.809] (II) RADEON(0): Printing DDC gathered Modelines: > [ 21.809] (II) RADEON(0): Modeline "1366x768"x0.0 69.30 1366 1414 1446 1480 768 770 775 780 -hsync -vsync (46.8 kHz eP) > > ********** /var/log/Xorg.0.log ********** end ********** > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 22:05:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462122F419B for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:05:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bTkM2f9Sz3fRR for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 051M3ti9078356 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:03:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) To: FreeBSD Mailing List From: Tim Daneliuk Subject: Migrating To Python 3.x Autocrypt: addr=tundra@tundraware.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:05:16 -0000 I have a number of servers with rather complex mail/dns/web server configurations that are stable and have been running happily for many years needing nothing more than monthly patching. But Python 2.x is EOL at the end of this year. Can anyone suggest a strategy for moving from 2.x to 3.x? Also concerned about what to do with mailman since mailman3 never has made it to the ports tree as best as I can determine. TIA, -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 22:10:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9492F42BD for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49bTrF363jz3fhw for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:10:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.110]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 326554E662 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:10:13 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bTrF363jz3fhw X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.110:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.02)[1.024]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.92)[0.921]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.982]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:10:22 -0000 On 6/1/20 5:03 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > I have a number of servers with rather complex mail/dns/web server > configurations that are stable and have been running happily for many years > needing nothing more than monthly patching. > > But Python 2.x is EOL at the end of this year. Can anyone suggest a > strategy for moving from 2.x to 3.x? > > Also concerned about what to do with mailman since mailman3 never has made > it to the ports tree as best as I can determine. > I got some advises on mailman replacement recently, didn't have chance to work through migration yet, but my plan will be based on one of the following choices: 1. sympa (most likely) 2. majordomo (less likely) What else did you manage in your mail server setup depend on the sneaky snake (python)? Valeri > > TIA, > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 22:18:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245B72F4649 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:18:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bV212Nszz3gcy for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:18:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 051MHR36078628 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:17:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> From: Tim Daneliuk Autocrypt: addr=tundra@tundraware.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFlVgYoBEADIYD9W4mbKz5cEleX923hagDWkxyJl4kRiMJnz+dNAH71MItSdErMb0cFt CPxVncb4dR4R2ec0c0MjPcgVINNtbY1DMWsF7t31TKD8NG9ZjLqF6fZDFjgkRejqHytgjmCI UejrMSCf0UJsLtg+I3N1ZVVxd7ALj2bCvC/uc5S7j+YbNnhQvSoBbdFj/xOTjyOGGpk7WfB7 e42PGKq1NSgnI7tcY6HSaSH+LHeoc0yUpBb5A1ge+RhR1N9JTniEFe0qvOBi+HgUltEoxsk4 xb6IhpkDOTsxHvEg5h0ukfl8kG9cu+LrEBqwPaC8lPw3UmoTEAU+lXHanPE12JCF/54EtVCc rb4W0vqgGmLJzn5dRU/fWkar0FKPq4eoV0XMbGZKIC6pWQnMEsxEMpNvh7oefK6Kyn+LO+59 +sNYHbv1RImDJccmfHTOA6/jHdwOcnYy37U8UF7e+mGrwNs8GsMQx2AaQbR6VErakH3GBgft bMFOGQxiaRBkbzba7BZCQ060yhiC3/Mb/xHoVi7PBEmKig1SErTMA7Fh3CYPYIRDphNs6OSr tf9O4hbzUAsjbU3rxOfiWQjP3fSOM0KUBj4wpIWZlMrjAGnMIz2wHb211wsBiLqSaGiiO1LR 7RrcvbIFZvHQHiWe2tdRyuH3N/h7A316yoLfx+yy1gyP5weWsQARAQABzSRUaW0gRGFuZWxp dWsgPHR1bmRyYUB0dW5kcmF3YXJlLmNvbT7CwXcEEwEIACEFAllVgYoCGyMFCwkIBwIGFQgJ CgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQdoOXo5EJFKntcA/9F9ags9Ik5C49N39iRq+yqBdn/Lr75rqv +Yg7JkjeVlwHpnQt1S6orTC7EaJc+AqY3szCEmhfuT0+E96Bw2k+G/XRnaedZ9SHSdImlmq0 RmOFpWLr67ScvlA9YG1tyR+QYraEFqK5EB6qhOWRJoz1BYtAAntK9b9gUTXt/277sT7lAWaj oPi4CDd4DofHc4E9VRsniMQNMLCWqc/ygAK07cWbK2Rh90tS2C4nK6OHFkNkK94zDilfxod1 NBFTUPPYfEU2CSa3eLlpfhYY3/2X7zNvmmCt+chHUnAhQLhldQ3WlqmTKP+ZK9LX002/bY1O M8Zk76WyA/A3EfsIUbnXBQvFyjwX6W4QEytlZWtp/yRIe64JOa3dZ8rkhragb2N4VgVLBVe3 jtZgfQ72pHrfNk/T0uT+hjFqInvIYiXkhxB2GiD7Ga28VuXojTmeoaW3GKcvoVxONSju7WzD XgyxWRmNpd5uifJcC3YU3tNNAosnQ0/5FW4wkducSEVwwqnAiSMQEMDDa/e6oP6GyOzes5SV LTNCRYdHWVKbxjetYU4SKm5RdLx9XuJo0qL9vO97mCNwdNkTM7gO2ycQ49qUiGbCZJOh2gpP ZRFrpJDxbloosAfOEB6IYjhb38u6jvbScJKK3bWA+a8TK4SrQpdRd1cAnW9sA8jCTV8ejZq0 CHnOwU0EWVWBigEQAJYuihAOOOe/kAn045Ayn+3is3S+6eV4IAgL6lJhoChkgUJJuFoRX9BY rd35z29+q2/UCoProzd4Mk66wXeWv6n4s5R79OUzjgMLCTVlVaMy4gjPL9NRDwMt7KYRF56g mnoKZwfPDi/oJ5toPPboW94FrMwonqbdqYM2Pyi/HPMe4e396WQ4TaA1CdhyzKHoFSpkGcjX zIQ5yQ5aaGS7wonRu/pg15dbu+8QOgxRNFa0bO+ntz/30u+VmxFqFVbExjuy3Or8fSBhJgx4 cfyrrunKLclpZ/52VeK3l53yWYpR8RaTZfzpu8Ih+ijAY4XLO5F8P1T6sEviMaTY2F0sbFRx ZJXsgFpiKeWPHUn7/LX7qcoFJYoFqG6b3n5km+qy39x6lMgJDuxKpeN6lYj//LB6xVzn0JI+ 4ZHPrEkFqxu8VkL7deCPTI67ZJik18jXjTH9sha1YBvgvxIPFMA7ZwXX2AwNu7PzdcCpWarS usOAHbjQBUsQ+ZPpI1oeFnsCPZ+8/mMcTjVRZyJxOPs3KnXZv2cXNuaa7lwkWS366gHzQI7O l6WdC8TyNjiOzR654cL8BgYQ/xNSW1vTXqPWSRU8/b/5IueY2tQJh0CKIvfoP0rk8976wa1R 8SRi08mwHX7+F5oSeXLRNHicQGpS1f0DywdRcQ0MFHyq/CV4dTltABEBAAHCwV8EGAEIAAkF AllVgYoCGwwACgkQdoOXo5EJFKkDNw//c8nailIVOV72l7Lze+2AuK9MYUCFb1i4qI1WTnG0 OHQlCAltPhdwZPAozJw/eNqIcuWQh8rZspve9ipj589wLSsVyaFRsuYXTiYZ9RlRsnJYa36h 2JML3ZGrRsSxaUEAggbiOKbwmw27JuOIPmC3Gln4tJuZ+nw6cfCgMI45bIzinVanxHwPLeLp BZKpaEYzAwtBykUfAXn3jDwrI95UlMJvhHDFuRgvb6uSyJIqmp5aR/BjnlSdEwICyWpRAVSt yqZeBMeHbCr1B97PIRzk/q0eHm9T+AoiZWwz1iVGGgkYdAaCfs2PBlNHmRm93cfgoEcaGvNb RbTXOe28niMJeYMQsnjOTy5AQIrhVKeP5E+qVs/oPK/inmLiTbjZcnrO2wR+uxpPGgmR6M/3 p8qyRdaOvT87HZXO+Wr+r9A4UnwhCPsfELwPlEo+TJQ/oE71Mlkx/ddQCWELcHjXrQF9YbzA Ml7g0zTkgHysh4DNkV5iYteOcmCwsWdOwn0H0yZfz6weyr8nEdPngyOjFNKMIpcTbeg8866c GxXAJj46dub4VdVwfvMRHfmmRJkjdId7YHWMgz2Kf7S7KPCROLis7WjlOdSS0q2m/7qy9WL/ ZW50YLS8ZZLMrnari5JxCyJX+8n6ZASo2AA93iTbKmYegK2LDwW1QLU1iAF3GyGOnSE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:17:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; 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ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.67)[-0.671]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.757]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.56)[0.563]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:18:50 -0000 On 6/1/20 5:10 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 6/1/20 5:03 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: >> I have a number of servers with rather complex mail/dns/web server >> configurations that are stable and have been running happily for many years >> needing nothing more than monthly patching. >> >> But Python 2.x is EOL at the end of this year.  Can anyone suggest a >> strategy for moving from 2.x to 3.x? >> >> Also concerned about what to do with mailman since mailman3 never has made >> it to the ports tree as best as I can determine. >> > > I got some advises on mailman replacement recently, didn't have chance to work through migration yet, but my plan will be based on one of the following choices: > > 1. sympa (most likely) > > 2. majordomo (less likely) > > What else did you manage in your mail server setup depend on the sneaky snake (python)? > > Valeri > >> >> TIA, >> > I moved away from majordomo years ago because it was such a security problem. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 22:20:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FD42F4A5A for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:20:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bV3z2TJPz3gVS for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:20:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.46.193]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MkpjD-1jGwlL2MxT-00mMJz; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 00:20:16 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 00:20:16 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Keyboard and mouse not working after X update Message-Id: <20200602002016.e4839f70.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200601234718.6db5f0a62f6b42b53fa23b51@bidouilliste.com> References: <20200531214105.2caed717.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200531231731.85ee6d3d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601001117.f7075d7d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601205659.fac089c3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601210904.26383caf62c0cb59f4a2b68a@bidouilliste.com> <20200601221334.c9486a27.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601224324.af8aecf82db7ad2b5efb4679@bidouilliste.com> <20200601234024.4511a19d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200601234718.6db5f0a62f6b42b53fa23b51@bidouilliste.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.31 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.46.193:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.29)[0.289]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.65)[0.654]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.96)[0.964]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:20:32 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:47:18 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:40:24 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:43:24 +0200, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:13:34 +0200 > > > Polytropon wrote: > > [...] > > Okay, as this machine is already "quite old", I should > > probably not use amdgpu, even though it "somehow works". :-) > > The module was loaded but didn't do anything. Correct. And X tried to load "ati", but that didn't work with "amdgpu" loaded. So the correct _combination_ is important. > For AMD cards it really depend on the hardware, I suggest you try both > and see which one works better. As I understand, only "radeonkms" kernel module + "ati" X driver package (uses "radeon" driver) works. If I try "amdgpu" kernel module + "amdgpu" X driver package, VESA (!) will be used. > > It now seems to work in X. Testing with "glxgears" again is only 60 FPS, > > except when I use this: > > > > % setenv vblank_mode 0 > > % glxgears > > > > I get almost 1300 FPS, which is much better. > > I don't know why it is better, vsync is needed for good rendering, no > need to render a frame 20 times if it will be only draw once on the > screen. This is, if I remember correctly, only important (here: better) to check if the calculations performed in the GPU go up to a certain value, significantly higher than software rendering, as it _should_ be if the GPU is capable. The three little gears display smootly. I will experiment tomorrow with building xlockmore from ports, because the package does not include the "fire" GL screen saver or the planetary gears to be run in fullscreen; those are a good test to see if the hardware rendering kicks in as planned. OpenArena is also good for testing. I'm glad the update performed from 12.0 to 12.1 didn't force me to throw the laptop into the garbage can. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 22:26:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1E32F4AD7 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:26:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bVBp2KXFz3yl4 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:26:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 051MP7Ra078755 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:25:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x From: Tim Daneliuk To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> Autocrypt: addr=tundra@tundraware.com; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Mon, 01 Jun 2020 17:25:07 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 051MP7Ra078755 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, timed out) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bVBp2KXFz3yl4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.43 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.67)[-0.673]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.757]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.30)[0.303]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:26:26 -0000 On 6/1/20 5:17 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > What else did you manage in your mail server setup depend on the sneaky snake (python)? Bind claims it needs it, but I suspect bind will be ok if I change the default python version and reinstall. Samba says the same thing. A lot of the dependencies seems to be for mailman. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 1 23:53:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478832F64BC for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:53:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49bX6q56SWz48XW for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [198.74.231.63]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18C0956758; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (doug@localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 051Nr6cb088879; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:53:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 051Nr68W088876; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:53:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 19:53:06 -0400 (EDT) From: doug Reply-To: doug@safeport.com To: Tim Daneliuk cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x In-Reply-To: <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> Message-ID: References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bX6q56SWz48XW X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of doug@fledge.watson.org has no SPF policy when checking 204.107.128.30) smtp.mailfrom=doug@fledge.watson.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.02 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[doug@safeport.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.23)[0.234]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watson.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.00)[0.002]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.78)[0.782]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11288, ipnet:204.107.128.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 23:53:08 -0000 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > On 6/1/20 5:17 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: >> What else did you manage in your mail server setup depend on the sneaky snake (python)? > > > Bind claims it needs it, but I suspect bind will be ok if I change the > default python version and reinstall. > > Samba says the same thing. > > A lot of the dependencies seems to be for mailman. https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions ^^^^^^^ The question is what about questions?? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 03:26:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30612FFC68 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 03:26:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from plmahan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bcrv0j8pz4c7b for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 03:26:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from plmahan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id d8so735605uam.12 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:26:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P7U5rh2ZUOjmBh+TySRSg0hY2HPUK0OGmTYVkY3207M=; b=bOUfACw+88fR4fcNShlsPNyv5wLKXHe1npk0ztYltGfohnpsBNXryXjrT+9C9yC6WB thbr7Ta4CIeRpY06J41JINE3Vm5MBUCvWy7ookPvqOBo3IkLYR4JIyEkuVsFu5V9z+Mb XaEMjRa/wH/Uxwail7q8J+QQj2EEmaiFGSk2u+PCLJlIxRJCBSH8fiz2gdR1cCzmyekd ABwdN2pmOJP0th/qwKUm+ukRoudKilNn/C2KpTtrv1dGXTtx/AWCUf9pd6I1S6QmlY0e yqsiK8KUmQTWZkaVqGBReIZt+vhZSfOCK0xnGpshprXcGN5h1FHWBNbzzVG51c2E76PC 98Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P7U5rh2ZUOjmBh+TySRSg0hY2HPUK0OGmTYVkY3207M=; b=NdbKQXySqvbmlV9JqON4sLRr4fyRlZC0D6VHE3SzXUJX/ldBhtYagV0Ll56jhxwlBy wlk10u53QDocu18A/mHvkpQJxr1JxWwOaeJHzgPGwBRMK0AJu4Q3MR4elO6weIV2UnMz jxWjW4PEJgnaK7Jdu7ItTHuxieBCJHy8YYSJjVtG/XRUopChde4dYiGm4t/tF5vb7VPJ 2NHGB5nWi/Bp/USps2Kww/A9WDd+3+k/g85g7Es8GtX3ORPVtfMObd7LVFm3U5Skojx4 AsQqiL+yqOuUzua+J2l9OiTr+3l9iQtdBn7H/nZv+lsnUUC1GeNzGSSGFG21+WQ4IoOs o0jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wCe7xv1MeFScIZlyPgJ++n7P+LmgEX/W12X0soH6HhW41Ouda LVAGbXyxr5SvDNMkzjKJuiyiZoYA9s7s5QuZ4QP5epgH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkxjJqdnw4a7H/fSnHz9M2Sodk0f6+lJIjxY905QhnY1nbLZvVG/yEs5I56lUQXWo4h1TG8fR9OXWwbacn7Us= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:6f08:: with SMTP id r8mr19902779uah.111.1591068381891; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 20:26:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Patrick Mahan Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 20:26:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Configuring slim on a multi- To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bcrv0j8pz4c7b X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=bOUfACw+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of plmahan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::933 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=plmahan@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.99 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.970]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::933:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.01)[-0.007]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 03:26:23 -0000 I tried freebsd-desktop first, but since I have not seen any responses, I thought I would try here. I am using slim as my display manager. I have a dual display and currently using the freebsd-simple theme. I have modified the theme (temporarily) to place the login box always on the left most screen - # panel location input_panel_x 25% input_panel_y 25% input_name_x 105 input_name_y 215 However, pressing the F1 button causes the session display to occur in the middle split across both monitors. I tried modifying the msg_x and msg_y to no avail. So is there a control for where the session info is displayed and controlled? Thanks, Patrick From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 03:53:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDA7328CE3 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 03:53:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bdSZ0FsXz3RMY for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 03:53:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 0523qUmJ057329 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 22:52:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x From: Tim Daneliuk To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> Autocrypt: addr=tundra@tundraware.com; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Mon, 01 Jun 2020 22:52:30 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 0523qUmJ057329 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, timed out) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bdSZ0FsXz3RMY X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.77 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.40)[-0.404]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.757]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.31)[-0.307]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 03:53:51 -0000 On 6/1/20 5:25 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > On 6/1/20 5:17 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: >> What else did you manage in your mail server setup depend on the sneaky snake (python)? > > > Bind claims it needs it, but I suspect bind will be ok if I change the > default python version and reinstall. > > Samba says the same thing. > > A lot of the dependencies seems to be for mailman. > > So I was able to move everything over to python 3.7 _except_ mailman which, of course requires python 2.7. However, I keep running into the old problem that the setuptools for each of these versions conflict with each other because they install in the same location (why? everything else in multi-verion python lives under its own directory tree.) Until/unless I can figure out a reasonable way to work around this, everything either has to live under 2.7 past EOL or I cannot run mailman2 (which is not an option unless mailman3 gets ported). Has anyone every managed to get py2 and py3 to coexist happily on FreeBSD including their respective pips and setuptools? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 04:07:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FCF32971C for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 04:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@ozzmosis.com) Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (relay6-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bdmq24p4z3SXk for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 04:07:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@ozzmosis.com) X-Originating-IP: 167.179.139.56 Received: from blizzard.ozzmosis.com (167-179-139-56.a7b38b.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net [167.179.139.56]) (Authenticated sender: ozzmosis@ozzmosis.com) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F38FC0003; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 04:07:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by blizzard.ozzmosis.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0F583C6FD1; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 14:07:48 +1000 (AEST) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 14:07:48 +1000 From: andrew clarke To: Tim Daneliuk Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x Message-ID: <20200602040748.ewkrdmnk6qrq2vn6@ozzmosis.com> References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20200501 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bdmq24p4z3SXk X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mail@ozzmosis.com designates 217.70.183.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mail@ozzmosis.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ozzmosis.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.70.183.198:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.68)[-0.675]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.013]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.183.198:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 04:07:56 -0000 On 2020-06-01 17:03:50, Tim Daneliuk (tundra@tundraware.com) wrote: > I have a number of servers with rather complex mail/dns/web server > configurations that are stable and have been running happily for many years > needing nothing more than monthly patching. > > But Python 2.x is EOL at the end of this year. Can anyone suggest a > strategy for moving from 2.x to 3.x? > > Also concerned about what to do with mailman since mailman3 never has made > it to the ports tree as best as I can determine. I notice there's a PR for adding mail/mailman3 to Ports: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225543 Though work dates back to 2018 and seems to have stalled. Presumably it needs feedback/testing/feeding. :-) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 09:05:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8894132EA12 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 09:05:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bmNY5S2tz4H3V for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 09:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id j10so2547999wrw.8 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 02:05:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ag4JG2EdLrikER3zp/kVVnbwDKacf1rwII7Dqa3NQbA=; b=KQVw5p8q+XNgOl7PU+ONQ6tRyTGI/2tUs+I5GTTadUwCxvYDjkhBTO7zMiE6YTJjCg GvAqdsIGhzJeUWZwLY6Ze3KuYhFO1FLNlWXYvf7ePZwunL80pUz3dFGY8y7s+KWHJrXY dGnh1JkoilxlYuXnxZmdATFv4nBsuTlkbTYR/7T6SKeJWpKDKjBYOk/2eJ/5lsJUhZTH tAavMn6fayv879xA8uVcXJ+4ipjsQaukwsQH31Ap8UCRfiHAZhPAsLOngD5hmCex1lgG unxJ7eUK9Y+htyz9a0V4ClyylB4Ayxe9qII9wAbZs3inQTcL1uUNFupopgZLsqWLwhyZ yeUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ag4JG2EdLrikER3zp/kVVnbwDKacf1rwII7Dqa3NQbA=; b=LS5S9QQd+tbp6BMJ/a8H3ZxcFgVFGE9Bj37hEQHGlS/RFXObP3Xvxmgf6BkkzcRSLF /tkNZ+hwhkFSSIXyjMLeySqK7PDZ8fU+lUXM2Ytfb/610RF/VVb1qYZwLN0uDM+FcrcE bMRqRKs7R7ikL/t8yWiV33M91toAiFiOanMcm4oUitDNyMFpZBJP4p7u/qzs759tqlBF ChW6mQGvVmW3jv3574r3NFDl0UxZgRVTute5ZfAYfDUZ8uGx9OaKfJ4VRkGH3qBPOgxq Ywa3lh5c0tjnEoj+b+fXcTkPMccjhLCupOF49Zk0Zq+8L9I4o40D4NIC3Q2U9hr5nFRU B0kQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318iM3QZSkV0DZnNpp18JYg8V2bo+n2yEoBJfY7S52NDdBh4Mw5 2h6LnREcf9qJ0kIHF3T7RAy6h8VEdWVUfbsgySOeOiAGuxc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxfBekhxIv3LStfeSNwlM7WfwalHLgRRPH5RKDZtKPAL7qrbbsDLC+oEimEZcN2JSQ8ul70rWPs9fSrZWVY7KA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4488:: with SMTP id j8mr24691979wrq.242.1591088747359; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> <04c4ee18-daa2-aebc-882c-29407a58a160@tundraware.com> In-Reply-To: <04c4ee18-daa2-aebc-882c-29407a58a160@tundraware.com> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 11:05:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x To: Tim Daneliuk Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bmNY5S2tz4H3V X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=KQVw5p8q; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::430) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.035]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::430:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.146]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 09:05:50 -0000 wt., 2 cze 2020, 05:54 u=C5=BCytkownik Tim Daneliuk Has anyone every managed to get py2 and py3 to coexist happily on FreeBSD including their respective pips and setuptools? I usually use Python VirtualEnv not to modify system packages and to keep one or another separated from each other :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 11:49:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FE53330EF for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 11:49:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49br1J1YbWz4bds for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 11:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id q25so2820582wmj.0 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 04:49:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=D5RUabG/VJevvmOcn/okCNmcXeRdjeTuOQ8vEgcDZJc=; b=jAnmMeg/FI1y96ge88W5FxIXYhhttkuPED6Mlxph1Gip21K/H8OPJpSPMqrTB8eMLv zW0b1TfJ1vH5BJaesm/WF5e/ia1BkFbZT5kkPur0px+VcCnLlT6lAotxQ9jN5py/9ij8 zqPfL6JBGFJ3GM62EfHfCFALUK+IM7S19z2h9niVwikhuX2zqftWh3pYZ9tpwGK3nIWj OHJE9IzwnIKkJciZw38ZVh4BffisSRTgsuxdNtkPmfx3GlGICOm+Xom5+vz+NOg+y0rJ +Cz2EEki63DV0UQIZsRUeVmx9Z0sX4/B4w2WLwQiL1UPq0HsT4OGP4RFq/4P1QCBVeyM BSiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=D5RUabG/VJevvmOcn/okCNmcXeRdjeTuOQ8vEgcDZJc=; b=q7HO5H68mI2eix/9vUemS4/39pbu5cw/tUbD4KN20GcytDwxDW9NSjPFBxLTFZYhiR VTGplusN256+3GeQOmlWjErKgU2mPHkZ07xxMxQTRCATpHwVMQvI3dSibKZCR8pZidOf mWpZpMCrIVhs046Y/TMgiD1Dm6aCqW0/1hZs78/wGjqE4rhvAtP3CB1IwoDhE8AiMeX6 rENv5ay79I5tW30Uybg7GTgoI/jJtaIeY5a3HTZQaVWFmXKRuAnjBFAx16XQex7ufsfs deiYvGZmLPIhTYpvMiYQKTnIl4txHU/BI6lmWCluR7bXG4UYnVJXQKPIV6VqfItn+uUq sH+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oR5fV3GWPMmOt8rlPrHQHMnGO9Kb8d2AGS6vjNl15iutajZY7 WGrli0y+bJSBS5E0a0OBizK7qTHvpjaU2Xb/uW0gVHSxiis= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw54lhh3RR4HG51PVMTIjORcCcziih01+PbUlhd5wCVPCCZndv8ZpE0h9+9xzUxgCCgt2y0xRVNk/PSJJjn9IU= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c385:: with SMTP id s5mr4087260wmj.121.1591098562579; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 04:49:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:48:45 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: autofs auto(un)mountd umount problem To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49br1J1YbWz4bds X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=jAnmMeg/; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::32f) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.68 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.48)[-0.478]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.70)[-0.704]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32f:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.80)[0.799]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 11:49:25 -0000 Hello world :-) I am developing an embedded system. Firmware update can be done by drag-and-drop a firmware file to a UMS exposed endpoint of the debug probe (ARM MBED DAPLink) that emulates a small FAT memory drive. After the firmware file bin/hex is put on the drive probe uses FlashAlgo to put its content into a microcontroller flash memory over SWD/JTAG port and then device reboots so the drive vanishes itself as detached and re-attach when ready for next flashing. Because I am quite frequently updating this firmware I have decided to try the autofs and auto(un)mountd. The mount part works fine. But I always need to unmount by hand. Even though there are no files after device detach, it does not mount again without manual umount. This may be caused by device vanish as its intended behavior. I guess the role of autounmountd is to unmount detached drive for me right? After enabling debug of the autofs I can see this message "autofs_unmount: vflush failed with error 16" which may indicate a source of the problem. But the flush is not possible as device is already gone. Would I like umount to use the force in that case? Also I have vfs.usermount=1 but I am unable to mount/umount as user. I have set vfs.autofs.cache="5" in /boot/loader.conf. # sysctl -a | grep autofs WARNING: autofs_unmount: vflush failed with error 16 vfs.autofs.interruptible: 1 vfs.autofs.retry_delay: 1 vfs.autofs.retry_attempts: 3 vfs.autofs.cache: 5 vfs.autofs.timeout: 30 vfs.autofs.mount_on_stat: 0 vfs.autofs.debug: 1 # sysctl -a|grep mount WARNING: autofs_unmount: vflush failed with error 16 vfs.autofs.mount_on_stat: 0 vfs.ffs.compute_summary_at_mount: 0 vfs.root_mount_hold: vfs.root_mount_always_wait: 0 vfs.usermount: 1 # grep cd /etc/group wheel:*:0:root,cd operator:*:5:root,cd video:*:44:cd uucp:*:66:cd dialer:*:68:cd cd:*:1001: vboxusers:*:920:cd clamav:*:106:cd webcamd:*:145:cd The questions are: 1. How to make autounmountd quickly unmount vanished device so I do not need to umount it by hand? 2. Why I cannot mount/umount as user even though vfs.usermount is set? 3. To you know a good standardized way for a memory device to detach itself in a graceful way? At this point flashing probe just vanishes itself itself from the scsi (?) layer which looks like a hardware failure which may cause problems to the USB and AUTOFS layer. I can modify the debug probe firmware if that would be the most elegant way. I have already done it, its Open-Source, so that would be no problem, I would only need to know the valid way of graceful detach that would work correctly on all platforms. Any hints welcome :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 12:08:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A02334D10 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 12:08:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10007f3f5c7.df35bd220a91daebfc93c477a330dd93@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49brRG3gc9z4fCZ for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 12:08:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10007f3f5c7.df35bd220a91daebfc93c477a330dd93@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591099707; x=1593691707; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=1hHlO4fnGRn4vR+1IwYQ1tCjKveP2c66/YEX4KcDIxw=; b=PI7NKZ1Yp5uATCHD1iXzitbh2R71gPl5en9ArgPynX1b6nGLKCk/j/EguiaCRVmg3MpqJIC1He5R9LPDiZLxDLyELvsa91znkvOH0xBlE0i7fesS+DCP77zLo07Z6lnvaGBZeP45QypBScZpGS3TWvvgg2oQBK94FisyXsX0qH4= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDdmM2Y1YzcuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:08:19 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:08:18 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jg5iK-0008XG-TY; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 13:08:17 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:08:16 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: autofs auto(un)mountd umount problem Message-Id: <20200602130816.fe01e502fff3dd3c51685a55@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49brRG3gc9z4fCZ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=PI7NKZ1Y; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10007f3f5c7.df35bd220a91daebfc93c477a330dd93@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10007f3f5c7.df35bd220a91daebfc93c477a330dd93@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.76 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.032]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.06)[-1.057]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.02)[0.025]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10007f3f5c7.df35bd220a91daebfc93c477a330dd93@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10007f3f5c7.df35bd220a91daebfc93c477a330dd93@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 12:08:27 -0000 On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:48:45 +0200 Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > 2. Why I cannot mount/umount as user even though vfs.usermount is set? The user needs to own the mountpoint, that may be your problem. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 12:32:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42CB3357D9 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 12:32:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com (mail-wm1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bryj5lLRz3TKW for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 12:32:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id v19so2763476wmj.0 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 05:32:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=58p8wQqmNO6dpnMj3zSol2dZ8X72nAv9jWeUOiM5uRg=; b=iCLndRnc0/nCOQNr42uEVE0a+1kUvtxUmg+ka1A0U/0y3OL1tP5Blge34qQEUaXbkG 2IXkwW4iTdgyH9O4B+DA33/p8YnDu6g0RPF2UzIIzJ7BqdWNUmUCiHzcsaiGk4UPWv9w hEjGNXqLFztO4OPoVx+Ntedf3mm10VA/yl2Cnd7XTu2Z+w81b1/BB2SeWeIjoitCWmXy G26sdoKh6BITeTAzmv/CPpmmE86Zdt0t3JcmuVwen9Kga1FsTTJEjq/LovZ0fq2S0+p4 HJIuVu+DIYTJV9m8nD3vPK1zYpqLnzmqsg4MV9AIJpByNiRFu5k/xZJDHNJhDjqRDRXd eQkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=58p8wQqmNO6dpnMj3zSol2dZ8X72nAv9jWeUOiM5uRg=; b=ZqnRFFRsYehv+NRmtD1DFDiW3YacXC68Z5Ly50qfVgJ68Yx1IpWgnXcCaRL7751M9J jKExbbIx/Q896gP2ayCcWOGJAuFhUgcUppIlWss1pn9YPZkaO09ilELoxW66Kkx0OXyi lUHxxCnSPa77nHmNiDdDZkfnioEfK/aki5EUJq9h/EZ3JsARtyxGO8/oqMMQmgOhZZwM eazie2KqRC8EJQ9mioLK2cN6ScHG3bSLsTiykefAwB4SQ0D/I4waXySgB3iOL3rsTpCZ +Jj+gSvYFp796lDZb875BO4ReSGtziH756AW/r3AxFSIuUToumIJs1AbyyyCX0vLnHFK cukw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531X66LGvHufMq+vnqxHHDuuJbfQBfY8R6h1WfGDuDAhjAK5gxTB s0qh3Nd41dfpVcivZmdjZCuyIOP3rfDN7xpfEdsObid/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwmL0yKr7WquYR+xZg4GiE02bR8zpbajku1vDhKt0DfOMIuQ6vN6BpcrUOh6ysB9XdG3GVV/Gsh4++5aaVylzs= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f301:: with SMTP id q1mr3960948wmq.110.1591101132244; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 05:32:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200602130816.fe01e502fff3dd3c51685a55@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200602130816.fe01e502fff3dd3c51685a55@sohara.org> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 14:31:34 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: autofs auto(un)mountd umount problem To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49bryj5lLRz3TKW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=iCLndRnc; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::331) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.98 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.35)[0.348]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.035]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::331:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 12:32:14 -0000 On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 2:08 PM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:48:45 +0200 > Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > 2. Why I cannot mount/umount as user even though vfs.usermount is set? > > The user needs to own the mountpoint, that may be your problem. Aaaarrghh :-) :-) Not the group but the _owner_only_. I thought that group also worked that way, me bad. I really got used to mount only in /mnt but well now I can also use my working directory for that :-) :-) Thank you Steve!! :-) Now I need to read about flags for automount so it does not change my mount point ownership and permissions so I can umount as user.. then tune its options so it umount the vanished device for me.. maybe I can even fix the device so it vanishes in a graceful way :-) This automount feature is really nice, saves some time on a workstation that swaps usb drives a lot.. I can now also use pendrive with dumps from an oscilloscope and stuff like that.. and always I can simply turn it off with only one or two rc.conf lines of text :-) I just love FreeBSD :-) Thank you! :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 13:15:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0505A336CBD for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:15:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49bswS730Xz3YnX for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 13:15:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 052DFDIw000922 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; 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RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.41)[-0.406]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.02)[-0.019]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.27)[0.267]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 13:15:22 -0000 On 6/2/20 4:05 AM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > I usually use Python VirtualEnv not to modify system packages and to keep > one or another separated from each other :-) I do exactly the same thing (using pew to simplify virtenv management). In this case though, I wanted to avoid all the hocus pocus of setting up a virtual env for mailman and getting it to start and operate properly. I am increasingly of a mind to dump mailman entirely and just use freelists. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 18:15:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6801C2F5F0A for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 18:15:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from news@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail.inka.de (mail.inka.de [IPv6:2a04:c9c7:0:1073:217:a4ff:fe3b:e77c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49c0ZW369Tz4R5W for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 18:15:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from news@mips.inka.de) Received: from mips.inka.de (news@[127.0.0.1]) by mail.inka.de with uucp (rmailwrap 0.5) id 1jgBRK-000qzt-FA; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 20:15:06 +0200 Received: from lorvorc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lorvorc.mips.inka.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 052IEYVL027839 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 20:14:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from news@lorvorc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from news@localhost) by lorvorc.mips.inka.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 052IEY6T027838 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 20:14:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from news) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Christian Weisgerber Newsgroups: list.freebsd.questions Subject: Re: nvi expandtab - tabs to spaces Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 18:14:34 -0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <0c30ebf7-e5b1-6fcb-d81e-2a039415f8a1@chezmarcotte.ca> User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49c0ZW369Tz4R5W X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of news@mips.inka.de has no SPF policy when checking 2a04:c9c7:0:1073:217:a4ff:fe3b:e77c) smtp.mailfrom=news@mips.inka.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.65)[0.649]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[inka.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.970]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.973]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[naddy@mips.inka.de,news@mips.inka.de]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:202113, ipnet:2a04:c9c7::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[naddy@mips.inka.de,news@mips.inka.de] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 18:15:16 -0000 On 2020-05-26, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > What version of vi is on OpenBSD 6.7? On my 6.6 [Version 1.79 > (10/23/96)] the expandtab is not available, but on NetBSD 9.0 [Version > (1.81.6-2013-11-20nb4], it is. Todd Miller added this feature very recently to OpenBSD's nvi: | commit ebcaf48cd321e191f80bc88097c598e86cc10bf5 | from: millert | date: Thu Apr 30 10:40:21 2020 UTC | | Add an expandtab option, similar to what vim supports. | If set, expands tabs to spaces in insert mode as well as when | shifting and indenting/outdenting. If quoted with ^V, a literal | tab is inserted. Adapted from NetBSD, but this implementation | more closely matches vim's behavior. OK dlg@ -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 21:31:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D96C2FB2A8 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 21:31:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xpetrl@beepc.ch) Received: from srv.fastssdserver.com (srv.fastssdserver.com [162.223.31.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49c4xF32cwz3bWl for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 21:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xpetrl@beepc.ch) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beepc.ch; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=G9FfUYBL40eTnxo5skAj/vvIQdENgaCby494H4umsxs=; b=qI3KyV3+ZwjIwbJASq7QFW8PaO Uj5lZtwl/ej/s8AINWthlany7bho6DjPSd+39XZTFOm/rfmSFOvwHEKb3H4aoZFBO41MnK5thY6IE yiVCXRj2RspuCpo/yZKnrzYqAzPi8lUhWhYE/Bt/XoAOU3zENgQmMO6r0GZ2cnMwTUG6PWReCsVER 3tBcl4KokHVB7Yp8Fbw6KGucqKywGWkvXCqtEy/dO0b11Qbk6Z6cAPJVHm7jccA4jXSXRauJDoj6w hCqHPCBLhP0ksHcLNzZpCMANf6PIucqWtsxb57bUIpnjhs0xCYJIJuwi4OAqDToL7PfYdKT2KGmxu JSAR247A==; Received: from [185.43.245.85] (port=36474 helo=[10.5.50.185]) by srv.fastssdserver.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jgEVb-002syv-Ny for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2020 02:31:44 +0500 Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> <04c4ee18-daa2-aebc-882c-29407a58a160@tundraware.com> From: xpetrl Message-ID: <26e534c3-54cd-8f3e-6aa4-aec12d354c5c@beepc.ch> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 23:31:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - srv.fastssdserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - beepc.ch X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: srv.fastssdserver.com: authenticated_id: xpetrl@beepc.ch X-Authenticated-Sender: srv.fastssdserver.com: xpetrl@beepc.ch X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49c4xF32cwz3bWl X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=beepc.ch header.s=default header.b=qI3KyV3+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of xpetrl@beepc.ch designates 162.223.31.2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=xpetrl@beepc.ch X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[beepc.ch:s=default]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:c]; HAS_X_SOURCE(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[beepc.ch]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.88)[-0.875]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.29)[-0.293]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[beepc.ch:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_X_GMSV(0.00)[xpetrl@beepc.ch]; HAS_X_ANTIABUSE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.25)[0.252]; ASN(0.00)[asn:46261, ipnet:162.223.31.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_AS(0.00)[xpetrl@beepc.ch] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 21:31:46 -0000 > I usually use Python VirtualEnv not to modify system packages and to keep > one or another separated from each other:-) The same here, ATM it still just work(tm) Python2 virtualenv is maybe safe for the next months / years, but how long? When packages are installed with pip2, a big warning is prompted telling Python2 is EOL. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 2 23:15:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44862FDA08 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 23:15:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "dreamchaser.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49c7DZ5wn6z44jf for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 23:15:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 052NF0Mi016936; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 17:15:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x To: Tim Daneliuk , FreeBSD Mailing List References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> <0b794721-3548-0882-58ff-7eedd54fe645@tundraware.com> <04c4ee18-daa2-aebc-882c-29407a58a160@tundraware.com> From: Gary Aitken Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Message-ID: <1f495234-6e58-db90-943f-5b5935e24f4f@dreamchaser.org> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 17:12:40 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <04c4ee18-daa2-aebc-882c-29407a58a160@tundraware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Tue, 02 Jun 2020 17:15:01 -0600 (MDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49c7DZ5wn6z44jf X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@dreamchaser.org designates 66.109.141.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@dreamchaser.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.55 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@dreamchaser.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.908]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dreamchaser.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.343]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21947, ipnet:66.109.128.0/19, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 23:15:13 -0000 On 6/1/20 9:52 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > Has anyone every managed to get py2 and py3 to coexist happily on > FreeBSD including their respective pips and setuptools? I seem I have them coexisting on an 11.3 system. At least they are both installed, although I haven't paid a lot of attention as to what is using what. They were installed from packages, not built from ports. ~$ pkg info -r python27 python27-2.7.17_1: py27-pytest-runner-2.11.1 py27-setuptools_scm-3.1.0 py27-snowballstemmer-1.2.0_1 py27-pystemmer-1.3.0_2 py27-cython-0.29 py27-alabaster-0.7.6 py27-sphinx_rtd_theme-0.4.3 py27-pygments-2.3.0 py27-sphinxcontrib-websupport-1.1.0 py27-docutils-0.14_3 py27-Jinja2-2.10 py27-Babel-2.6.0 py27-MarkupSafe-1.1.1 google-cloud-sdk-272.0.0 py27-sqlite3-2.7.17_7 vtk6-6.2.0_10 py27-matplotlib-2.2.4_1 py27-backports.functools_lru_cache-1.5 py27-cycler-0.10.0 py27-dateutil-2.8.0 py27-pyparsing-2.4.6 py27-pytz-2019.3,1 py27-kiwisolver-1.1.0 py27-numpy-1.16.5_2,1 py27-tornado-5.1.1 py27-tkinter-2.7.17_6 py27-backports-1 py27-backports_abc-0.5 py27-futures-3.3.0 py27-singledispatch-3.4.0.3_1 py27-six-1.12.0 hugin-2019.0.0_4 vigra-1.11.1_6 py27-gimp-2.10.14 en-gimp-help-html-2.8.2_1 py27-gtk2-2.24.0_5 libglade2-2.6.4_9 py27-gobject-2.28.6_8 py27-cairo-1.18.1_1 py27-setuptools-41.4.0_1 $ pkg info -r python37 python37-3.7.6: gcc-arm-embedded-9.2.20191106_2 libftdi-0.20_16 libftdi1-1.4_15 libfsntfs-e.20191221 libfwnt-20191222 openshot-2.4.4.443 py37-qt5-svg-5.13.1 libopenshot-0.2.3.490 py37-pyzmq-18.1.1 py37-qt5-webkitwidgets-5.13.1 py37-requests-2.22.0 py37-qt5-printsupport-5.13.1 py37-qt5-webkit-5.13.1 py37-urllib3-1.25.6,1 py37-chardet-3.0.4_3 py37-qt5-network-5.13.1 py37-idna-2.8 py37-pysocks-1.7.1 py37-openssl-19.0.0 py37-certifi-2019.11.28 py37-cryptography-2.6.1 py37-asn1crypto-0.24.0 py37-cffi-1.13.2 py37-pycparser-2.19 FreeCAD-0.18.4_1 opencascade-7.4.0_1 libarea-20160313_13 py37-pyside2-5.13.2_1 py37-pivy-devel-0.6.4_1 py37-matplotlib-2.2.4_1 py37-boost-libs-1.72.0 py37-shiboken2-5.13.2 py37-cycler-0.10.0 py37-dateutil-2.8.0 py37-pyparsing-2.4.6 py37-pytz-2019.3,1 py37-kiwisolver-1.1.0 py37-numpy-1.16.5_2,1 py37-tornado-5.1.1 llvm90-9.0.0_2 gstreamer1-plugins-a52dec-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-mpg123-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-vorbis-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-png-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-dts-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-dvdread-1.14.4_1 gstreamer1-plugins-resindvd-1.14.4_1 gstreamer1-plugins-theora-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-pango-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-ogg-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-good-1.14.4 gstreamer1-plugins-ugly-1.14.4 git-2.24.1 gconf2-3.2.6_5 gstreamer1-plugins-gl-1.14.4_2 gstreamer1-plugins-bad-1.14.4 graphene-1.10.0 py37-gobject3-3.28.3 py37-cairo-1.18.1_1 hplip-3.19.12 py37-qt5-dbussupport-5.13.1 py37-pillow-6.2.2 py37-qt5-widgets-5.13.1 py37-dbus-1.2.14 py37-olefile-0.46 py37-tkinter-3.7.6_6 py37-qt5-gui-5.13.1 py37-qt5-core-5.13.1 py37-sip-4.19.19_1,1 bind-tools-9.14.9 py37-ply-3.11 libinput-1.12.6_1 py37-evdev-0.8.1_1 py37-pyudev-0.21.0 py37-six-1.12.0 py37-setuptools-41.4.0_1 lensfun-0.3.2_2 libreoffice-6.3.4 gstreamer1-plugins-1.14.4_2 gstreamer1-1.14.4 gtk2-2.24.32 gobject-introspection-1.56.1,1 glib-2.56.3_7,1 llvm80-8.0.1_3 However, recent attempts to build a development version of FreeCAD using python37 is failing because of a conflict; haven't had time to look into it: root@breakaway:/usr/ports/cad/freecad-devel # make ===> FreeCAD-8.d821.f5.f depends on file: /usr/local/bin/cmake - not found ===> cmake-3.13.4 depends on executable: sphinx-build - not found ===> Staging for py27-sphinx-1.6.5_1,1 ... ===> Staging for py27-requests-2.21.0 ===> py27-requests-2.21.0 depends on package: py27-chardet>=3.0.2 - not found ===> Installing for py27-chardet-3.0.4 ===> Checking if py27-chardet is already installed ===> Registering installation for py27-chardet-3.0.4 as automatic Installing py27-chardet-3.0.4... pkg-static: py27-chardet-3.0.4 conflicts with py37-chardet-3.0.4_3 (installs files into the same place). Problematic file: /usr/local/bin/chardetect so I guess the answer is not flawlessly, at least not yet :-( gimp seems to be the one thing using python27. I know I use python in my use of gimp as I have a couple of plug-ins written. Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 00:23:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF56A2FF2ED for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 00:23:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49c8kz6vF3z4C8b for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 00:23:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id y18so319773iow.3 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 17:23:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nq5eG8lRbxP9R0vBRc3u+Vp5reCitVrLZpX5BaXzIHY=; b=b/YBU6vjXxd4O3PMQ6Rr38LSXG2bjDqzkQZdSRVM1jqiGJGCGI8rTm/1vVAsjnLtLm ziE5qx4BtuJlZTskI2Wvke+7uUwO2IGW42q+2dnIUQeatiiSh7OnP1UrrJqUU5H+refE xhUL7nWr46/m5K8WiTLiFAcysMc7keAE6l4dfrl3ZbXwz+jdpn2YG3kMI5b1imaoh7Kv o01PzMBLy4Mvc0ObM3xwHIZ+2VEAZQGkaNz0j+YS7ybdU2D5oZeKgl2FhQggWKLAZHDN gbevNcSyWiCl/Fat7oJWE5tJyJNpth0rdEwhNJ0N5kBnHdjmxCyoaGlL3852Rf1OvOzR Fq5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nq5eG8lRbxP9R0vBRc3u+Vp5reCitVrLZpX5BaXzIHY=; b=aGOxayIZC9ySaoo++Y/RWcOH8F4esFHcXkBPsjA+idMxzuDq8lyf2rPfioIk7TSawj MdXP0ufgoRLdJrV47GioWgsv9dN7YI+jfo12ecp+6iwME/XJJt4nERVIOSEnwOA6Wrg8 lOFyKJK+/8rv84KMrghSZkMf7Evxqv7558tZgkWABnZL4u1uHS7200lskkdncft7vWPc rkBKgfwBwySBnBxRZiKcWG9yGOa1BFu5HzYJaWSs/zZgN/u3Ngkt/uxPlfCo5nAhT61K Vt3V0o1h+gI18QDFCun4AcLLk9spOmUzT9FFj8PjktdNjicnH0FMbKQ3n5Fg6eFdekOY 992w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531J+o1q41e2AYKL54vtFyGVrKFXPbu1+KM0f1sSDQ/pUwfaPP6v ki1PeL4ZOwagQbKjD7kabuA1P9WgKo0rC6msDjAhMtVj4Hc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx2/JGcVNLYXfrXtrlGM7XirPxnA/p7g/cKPOBzh06UlR8A7CYO4c+SdWL8tHj5aOsx/POEHuS7tMNB+5RMd3w= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1448:: with SMTP id 69mr1528306iou.83.1591143785970; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 17:23:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 20:22:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Getting a HDMI microphone connection to work To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49c8kz6vF3z4C8b X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=b/YBU6vj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.11 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.08)[-0.081]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 00:23:08 -0000 I have my speakers hooked up through my monitor via HDMI and they work fine but even though there is a microphone port on the monitor it doesn't show in /dev/sndstat... btw it reads: pcm0: (play) pcm1: (play) default pcm2: (play/rec) pcm3: (play/rec) How do I get it to work with HDMI (vchan 2 above) since the mic is integrated into my headphones? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 05:27:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B4332D30B for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 05:27:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cHVJ5YKmz4l5y for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 05:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:27:30 -0700 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: David Christensen Subject: Debian 9.12, VirtualBox 6.1, FreeBSD 12.1 RELEASE, and lost pools Message-ID: <3e25b34e-678d-4632-1246-f49316f77fa4@holgerdanske.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:27:29 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cHVJ5YKmz4l5y X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.29 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.052]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.59)[0.591]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.75)[0.749]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 05:27:38 -0000 freebsd-questions: I have a Debian machine: 2020-06-02 22:01:52 dpchrist@tinkywinky ~ $ cat /etc/debian_version && uname -a 9.12 Linux tinkywinky 4.9.0-12-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.210-1 (2020-01-20) x86_64 GNU/Linux I have installed VirtualBox per Oracle's instructions: https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads 2020-06-02 22:14:46 root@tinkywinky ~ # dpkg-query --show virtualbox-6.1 virtualbox-6.1 6.1.8-137981~Debian~stretch I have created a virtual machine and installed FreeBSD: Select start-up disk FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso Welcome to FreeBSD Boot Multi user Welcome Install Keymap Selection Continue with default keymap Set Hostname vf1.tracy.holgerdanske.com Distribution Selection Partitioning Auto (ZFS) Pool Type/Disks stripe: 1 disk stripe ada0 Pool Name vf1_zroot Force 4K Sectors YES Encrypt Disks NO Partition Scheme MBR (BIOS) Swap Size 1g Mirror Swap YES Encrypt Swap NO >>> Install Root password ******** Network Configuration em0 Configure IPv4 Yes Use DHCP Yes Configure IPv6 No Network Configuration - Resolver Configuration Search tracy.holgerdanske.com IPv4 DNS #1 192.168.5.1 IPv4 DNS #2 Time Zone Selector Region America -- North and South Counties in America -- North and South Country or region United States of America United States of America Time Zones Pacific Time & Date Time & Date Services to start at boot sshd, ntpdate, ntpd System hardening options Add users Yes Username dpchrist Full name David Christensen Uid 13250 Login group dpchrist Invite into other groups wheel Login class default Shell sh Home directory /home/dpchrist Home directory permissions Use password authentication yes Use empty password no Use a random password no Password ******** Lock out no OK? yes Add another user no Final configuration Exit Open shell No Complete Reboot The VM works and I can log in via SSH: 2020-06-02 22:03:11 toor@vf1 ~ # freebsd-version && uname -a 12.1-RELEASE FreeBSD vf1.tracy.holgerdanske.com 12.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE r354233 GENERIC amd64 But the boot pool 'bootpool' is missing: 2020-06-02 22:06:35 toor@vf1 ~ # zpool list NAME SIZE ALLOC FREE CKPOINT EXPANDSZ FRAG CAP DEDUP HEALTH ALTROOT vf1_zroot 3.75G 545M 3.22G - - 2% 14% 1.00x ONLINE - bootpool is available for import: 2020-06-02 22:06:39 toor@vf1 ~ # zpool import pool: bootpool id: 13757577973895316021 state: ONLINE action: The pool can be imported using its name or numeric identifier. config: bootpool ONLINE ada0s1a ONLINE And I can import it (with the force option): 2020-06-02 22:06:50 toor@vf1 ~ # zpool import -f bootpool 2020-06-02 22:07:38 toor@vf1 ~ # zpool list NAME SIZE ALLOC FREE CKPOINT EXPANDSZ FRAG CAP DEDUP HEALTH ALTROOT bootpool 1.88G 147M 1.73G - - 0% 7% 1.00x ONLINE - vf1_zroot 3.75G 545M 3.22G - - 2% 14% 1.00x ONLINE - 2020-06-02 22:07:41 toor@vf1 ~ # zfs list bootpool NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT bootpool 146M 1.61G 146M /bootpool But the next time I reboot, bootpool is gone again. The same thing happens with other pools that I have created. STFW I see that somebody else had the same problem and used the same fix in January 2020, but there is no mention of the problem reoccurring on every boot: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/no-boot-directory.73703/ Ideas? David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 05:42:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B695732DB44 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 05:42:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cHpx0nM7z4mct for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 05:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:41:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Debian 9.12, VirtualBox 6.1, FreeBSD 12.1 RELEASE, and lost pools To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3e25b34e-678d-4632-1246-f49316f77fa4@holgerdanske.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <10fcccfd-178b-a237-da8b-dfd062b601b3@holgerdanske.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 22:41:49 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3e25b34e-678d-4632-1246-f49316f77fa4@holgerdanske.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cHpx0nM7z4mct X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.68 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.24)[0.242]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.68)[0.681]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.86)[0.859]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 05:42:02 -0000 On 2020-06-02 22:27, David Christensen wrote: > But the boot pool 'bootpool' is missing: > And I can import it (with the force option): > But the next time I reboot, bootpool is gone again. This looks like an unresolved bug since FreeBSD 11.0: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=212258 David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 15:20:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2159339936 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 15:20:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from news@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail.inka.de (mail.inka.de [IPv6:2a04:c9c7:0:1073:217:a4ff:fe3b:e77c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cXf16wQzz4c0k for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 15:20:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from news@mips.inka.de) Received: from mips.inka.de (news@[127.0.0.1]) by mail.inka.de with uucp (rmailwrap 0.5) id 1jgVBW-001FqJ-Gt; Wed, 03 Jun 2020 17:20:06 +0200 Received: from lorvorc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lorvorc.mips.inka.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 053FJ1Cw092717 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 17:19:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from news@lorvorc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from news@localhost) by lorvorc.mips.inka.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 053FJ1HW092716 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 17:19:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from news) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Christian Weisgerber Newsgroups: list.freebsd.questions Subject: Re: FIDO authentication Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 15:19:01 -0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <24270.62418.992039.257025@jerusalem.litteratus.org> User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cXf16wQzz4c0k X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of news@mips.inka.de has no SPF policy when checking 2a04:c9c7:0:1073:217:a4ff:fe3b:e77c) smtp.mailfrom=news@mips.inka.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.053]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[inka.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.877]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.921]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[naddy@mips.inka.de,news@mips.inka.de]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:202113, ipnet:2a04:c9c7::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[naddy@mips.inka.de,news@mips.inka.de] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 15:20:10 -0000 On 2020-05-27, Robert Huff wrote: > Various sites are reporting the FIDO Alliance > ("https://www.fidoalliance.org") has announced a major common > authentication initiative support by (/inter alia/) Google, Microsoft, > and Apple. > I'm assuming this requires some level of OS support; is anyone in > the FreeBSD community aware of/interested in this? I depends on where you want to make use of this type of authentication. At the application level, you only need access to uhid(4) devices. You can install the security/u2f-devd port and add the user to group u2f. That is enough to use basic U2F (FIDO1) support in Firefox. uhid1 on uhub0 uhid1: on usbus0 Works fine for me at https://demo.yubico.com/ OpenSSH 8.2 has added support for U2F/FIDO hardware authenticators: https://www.openssh.com/txt/release-8.2 I haven't checked to what degree the security/openssh-portable port supports this. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 21:54:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAAA2F3BC6 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:54:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM10-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10olkn2024.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.42.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cjP756Njz3Ybj for ; 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ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 21:54:39 -0000 I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most of the = contributions require at least minimal programming skills=2E My question is= whether or not there is anything I can contribute or maintain for freebsd = without any skills=2E What direction should I take my education if I wish t= o be able to maintain a port=2E Is c++ programming required? What else is r= equired? --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 22:56:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B1D2F5C8B for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 22:56:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ckmh24pLz3y1M for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 22:56:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1591224995; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=dhzFtNqpO/dF/SWOlZ1ouBN52Pg=; b=MwgKbffeeM6dcMJyiz2NWDWNh5u0bDhKrW3kt58vVHTjxOvUQV3uGNHjRvshhRQ4 nsYnloOF2LymMEHLQDgM+8CCRsZ5gOrG1GBkuN/c5d6Ol3XT8b7bXS1/YYIs7EeQ j4xNm1HXfydj6by0KjYAKimz4/oTYd2c5ARNuiSxOcRxV4S2PZejCWqaZu0sO7R3 ld+S1SHZk3A/Ypthu8cgJdSwr6xeBuDW9kQP/EFtfdXfU38fiQ1ufENTw8wFDY21 4JTVcg7TYEiFFY2Zb9f6f1rcsI3b9FivmuvuTMSDPBgHSDrJ1fbGsJvccLV9YUKC 13/JMdYt2m0QoyWJXUyTww==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z5uS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=LzgL_C7WRFEPg-ZNIl8A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:38046] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 01/A0-10869-2AA28DE5; Wed, 03 Jun 2020 18:56:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24280.10914.189765.715831@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 18:56:34 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Brandon Helsley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Mininal skills In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ckmh24pLz3y1M X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=MwgKbffe; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.57 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.050]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.416]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 22:56:37 -0000 Brandon Helsley writes: > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most > of the contributions require at least minimal programming > skills. My question is whether or not there is anything I can > contribute or maintain for freebsd without any skills. What > direction should I take my education if I wish to be able to > maintain a port. Is c++ programming required? What else is > required? Try updating documentation. This is which is very useful, can require no coding skills (or can be used to improve them), and - regrettably - brings little glory. If you are proficient in a language other than English, that makes you even more of an asset. Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 22:59:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30BF2F5E07 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 22:59:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ckqW4gmgz3yDR for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 22:59:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.2.120]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N6KML-1isTYg1vXV-016dEC; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 00:58:59 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:58:59 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon Helsley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-Id: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:utPV3TIsifYTmiyiR31aX7RjislSyDI88JG9qXi4gDud4RGjPiX LUZE9Yd93IcZ4R05BwByMRppDLSw03WlCNwP0qb4bZwRp6VvsvpxRIT7N7AXKFFhRrE9zYF gBrkDgb5hOpjWFJ0kBWMIzrCsN5ea0lbPXOx85imWYzpGZ6F4YUTi8YwR2kwXSyvHwa3/ZN G+1IY6wfISeT5955d+AeQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dva8wl/dQbo=:1oyj6/pyMSlzasJB0Tcegj 5wBCzQB5OoLzKsx3rRWio0x5ZaYQabL2H6/RvwG5Gsm/0UwIQTFzOftFlXuRqCRhxWwteduUs DbD36EjKYng//ng+eo7r4YwDf8NQpErINfaX2nUrAEpYDr6W5KeYuoHh3zgkKT0tT1XLzG7jE 4/Jokaw5L35O64KAYVKCp1ONRmM3/PENlGzLzCb4bFgBGQ6uWOzfliXEY1LjK5P2xOgWDmzHU jyCOFpyf8qIbqFmzGJYzriqf2zVDqWNYIVvsCPq99PUTEWpg5VzkNVevgu3P4JlOBE3pq7rN/ tRzkE6BnPvsHdo/JJsfVznmcXP1n/jF7JaT3Qoi3Nl8OAW92T4f3w6cFgO7AMhQxLq4Po6rum FNB7s3iHIJKU6+wzwfY2QZZyXXj06qltOkdHqNyHRtgCLzW9r2fSw8tbfLuKIn5rRZRUsb1AJ Yq53KeZP+3WRnGD7danObJPEk6noZQaAi67h6Pdi08aA/ym4Hu27pKUiW7YnGgCIRLKf/JXhe OryDJls8i+kG9xvHgBfiGy4gX+gxWdFG6S32fb6xIH4VbXxBq9DuJUVJUtopmdKk2sT0s1I+A YEjwVZrwuqE24Zwa7adDXKkgGzkYGUGl0a6IDB7HfYfwC2awH7E5cPZozbRYyCtArkk9uPOQ7 Yr+U6GrvVW/AqCvUvASY/UDD4+wbj+EyqSrqhm2H2ab0ENr5qM/lSIeRL3H9wgIWx3LlXPYrW ohOa8S97wvV9brYNQnRC/qMJjXPRaPsyKTD8BAknyMUCbDZ0sDiV9p3xvU4SzIoEg6cfR57gX 81F0VJGVMUbu7UL8ahXDn6N534Se87OANxSTiqm7Y46uIEcwdI/q+ebnnannXBVVVkuRdAZih VRKf5OZsWnMhLQ6L/KVw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ckqW4gmgz3yDR X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.50 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.2.120:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.718]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.28)[0.278]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.54)[0.538]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 22:59:04 -0000 On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 15:54:28 -0600, Brandon Helsley wrote: > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found > that most of the contributions require at least minimal > programming skills. My question is whether or not there > is anything I can contribute or maintain for freebsd > without any skills. What does "without any skills" imply for a human being? If you cannot program, then there are other aspects of FreeBSD you can contribute to, for example documentation. You can read and write - those _are_ skills (even though in our "modern world" there are often undervalued). > What direction should I take my education if I wish to > be able to maintain a port. That primarily depends on the port. Just as an example, the FreeBSD documentation is also a port. The toolset to use it is already present. So if you wanted to become a documentation contributor, you would have to learn how to _use_ those tools, not how they work interally. > Is c++ programming required? Depends on the port. Knowing C++ is not useful when the port uses C or assembly (like a device driver would), or Python, or Lua. To become a port maintainer, you should be able to use the programming language(s) the port uses. So when a patch is needed, you will often have to use the required programming language(s); sometimes upstream will provide patches for FreeBSD, sometimes they won't, so you have to find out for yourself what to do to make the port work again, for example if a security fix is needed, or if an enhancement in functionality requires a specific action for FreeBSD. > What else is required? Primarily, learning by doing. :-) You should first make yourself familiar with how the whole ports thing works. The FreeBSD Porter's Handbook is a good resource for that. Of course you should be able to use FreeBSD as an operating system. Furthermore, you should be able to use the required programming language(s) of the port in question. Additionally you should probably be able to deal with the FreeBSD bug tracking system and have the required communication skills to talk to upstream, if needed. If it hasn't become clear yet, you should of course learn how to use the ports infrastructure, working copy checkout, creation of patches, building and testing, and so on. Yes, this sounds quite trivial, but it is often neccessary to be able to do all this as a port maintainer. While reading the porter's handbook, it will become clear to you if this is a task you want to learn more about, and acquire more skills while (!) you do so. You will recognize which tools you are already familiar with, and which ones you'll have to learn. Without any doubt, you will grow your skillset already with those first steps. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 23:08:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66EE2F5BF2 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:08:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cl2m5tG8z401N for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:08:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (cpe-23-243-161-111.socal.res.rr.com [23.243.161.111]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 0b78df73 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:08:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: Brandon Helsley , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Pete Wright Message-ID: <3f0c7ac1-8867-8c2f-169a-c605020c3557@nomadlogic.org> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:08:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cl2m5tG8z401N X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.85 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.961]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.964]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.626]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[23.243.161.111:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 23:08:50 -0000 On 6/3/20 2:54 PM, Brandon Helsley wrote: > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most of the contributions require at least minimal programming skills. My question is whether or not there is anything I can contribute or maintain for freebsd without any skills. What direction should I take my education if I wish to be able to maintain a port. Is c++ programming required? What else is required? Hi Brandon - I think one of the benefits of FreeBSD is that it is a complete operating system with a cohesive development effort.  As such I personally don't think you necessarily need to be a programmer to get involved.  As others have mentioned, documentation is a great place to start.  I also think just subscribing to various mailing lists that interest you and watching developers interact as they develop and fix code is a great way to learn more about programming and operating systems in general. Finally, just being an engaged user and testing the OS (by tracking the STABLE or CURRENT branches for example) is a good way to get involved too.  Eventually you may find that as you learn more about FreeBSD you'll have no issues finding an area to contribute to that interests you - be it ports, docs, or contributing C or sh code to the OS. Cheers, -pete -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 3 23:26:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9139D2F6717 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:26:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12olkn2024.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.23.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49clQs1jL2z427V for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:26:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=cpAs+pvRL6iHfgMz16bVq50DF26WBt35jxmHe85unOc7ZBX2ylCZa/FzShAY6/uaUtp0S59ztVDyguhKWF+dwy1jhajiandNG9vQ4J38B9Pnek2TlgQKlHadJ53SQjDThiMr6yoUbedosIanhUw9+DKbX4WnkZ5maCjL1BOhPOwI/9X0h7GFjP0tKoGjY2rLL6jO18o7Hms9Ak67KgRZz7HQhUhMSYMj0uPM7pU9sD8ltuogH4tirGD1aKfaLuA9+KiZW7Q/DDMzKygLPt/Eg9pSjwf5e8WG1NKHQ8arpkdOK6Z+qci9nxGKbO75/EtcUVBwERfTHEVkMDeMWsgpdQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:26:11 +0000 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc65::44) by MW2NAM12FT027.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc65::94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.8 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:26:11 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:FAD24628184AA3BDED371987935C7762EC727869142153DBF5501F0B922C4739; UpperCasedChecksum:EE95CBB9ACC412E6D2011A9D6441B8B520B4E35EFE2DB5A89D0E391BA08BB607; SizeAsReceived:8775; Count:49 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e]) by CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.018; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:26:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 17:26:08 -0600 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: Polytropon CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Brandon Helsley Message-ID: X-ClientProxiedBy: CY4PR22CA0091.namprd22.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:ad::29) To CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:910:7a::16) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <35761AE1-B164-4C04-98E2-A78E0D4D11A8@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.39] (184.96.131.37) by CY4PR22CA0091.namprd22.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:ad::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.23.24:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 23:26:14 -0000 By "without any skills" I mean that I'm new to computers and am not even fa= miliar with the terminology thrown around in the FreeBSD community=2E=20 I've never heard of this documentation updating, I'd love to learn more=2E= Who should I be talking to or where should I be referring to so I can lear= n=2E=2E=2E=20 I sent a PR from some account I created about a bug in the loading of the = kernel modules for bhyve=2E I'm starting to think I didn't quite format it = correctly or rather communicate the issue correctly=2E I heard that filing = PR's is also a good starting point to get involved=2E Could someone help me= find the documentation that explains how to file a PR or update documentat= ion=2E Brandon On June 3, 2020 4:58:59 PM MDT, Polytropon wrote: >On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 15:54:28 -0600, Brandon Helsley wrote: >> I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found >> that most of the contributions require at least minimal >> programming skills=2E My question is whether or not there >> is anything I can contribute or maintain for freebsd >> without any skills=2E > >What does "without any skills" imply for a human being? >If you cannot program, then there are other aspects of >FreeBSD you can contribute to, for example documentation=2E >You can read and write - those _are_ skills (even though >in our "modern world" there are often undervalued)=2E > > > >> What direction should I take my education if I wish to >> be able to maintain a port=2E > >That primarily depends on the port=2E Just as an example, >the FreeBSD documentation is also a port=2E The toolset >to use it is already present=2E So if you wanted to become >a documentation contributor, you would have to learn how >to _use_ those tools, not how they work interally=2E > > > >> Is c++ programming required? > >Depends on the port=2E Knowing C++ is not useful when the >port uses C or assembly (like a device driver would), or >Python, or Lua=2E To become a port maintainer, you should >be able to use the programming language(s) the port uses=2E >So when a patch is needed, you will often have to use >the required programming language(s); sometimes upstream >will provide patches for FreeBSD, sometimes they won't, >so you have to find out for yourself what to do to make >the port work again, for example if a security fix is >needed, or if an enhancement in functionality requires >a specific action for FreeBSD=2E > > > >> What else is required? > >Primarily, learning by doing=2E :-) > >You should first make yourself familiar with how the whole >ports thing works=2E The FreeBSD Porter's Handbook is a good >resource for that=2E Of course you should be able to use >FreeBSD as an operating system=2E Furthermore, you should >be able to use the required programming language(s) of >the port in question=2E Additionally you should probably be >able to deal with the FreeBSD bug tracking system and have >the required communication skills to talk to upstream, if >needed=2E If it hasn't become clear yet, you should of course >learn how to use the ports infrastructure, working copy >checkout, creation of patches, building and testing, and >so on=2E Yes, this sounds quite trivial, but it is often >neccessary to be able to do all this as a port maintainer=2E > >While reading the porter's handbook, it will become clear >to you if this is a task you want to learn more about, and >acquire more skills while (!) you do so=2E You will recognize >which tools you are already familiar with, and which ones >you'll have to learn=2E Without any doubt, you will grow your >skillset already with those first steps=2E > > > >--=20 >Polytropon >Magdeburg, Germany >Happy FreeBSD user since 4=2E0 >Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, =2E=2E=2E --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 00:00:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0352F80BB for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:00:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cmBv3VJ5z45ft for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.2.120]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M5g68-1jaYll3mA6-007BBr; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 02:00:52 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:00:51 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon Helsley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-Id: <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 00:00:56 -0000 On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 17:26:08 -0600, Brandon Helsley wrote: > By "without any skills" I mean that I'm new to computers and > am not even familiar with the terminology thrown around in > the FreeBSD community. That's absolutely no problem. The more you use FreeBSD, the better you will know the terminology, which is mostly out of three classes: general computer terminology, UNIX terminology, FreeBSD-specific terminology. It is important to understand the meaning of termini technici originating in those classes, and _what_ exactly to be "eloquent" at depends on the area of documentation you want to deal with. > I've never heard of this documentation updating, I'd love to > learn more. Who should I be talking to or where should I be > referring to so I can learn... The FreeBSD Documentation Project has its own sub-page: https://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ Which can be reached from the central documentation site: https://www.freebsd.org/docs.html There is even a dedicated mailing list - freebsd-doc@freebsd.org which is used to discuss documentation-specific issues. For use with this mailing lists, as well as all other mailing lists, I recommend this summary: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/ Note that "documentation" doesn't just refer to manual pages; it also includes project web pages, books and FAQ, publications, maybe even the Wiki and other material. Note that the handbook you can access with your web browser is, technically, nothing else than the same handbook you can patch and rebuild on your local machine, be it HTML or PDF as the target: Those results are generated from the same source. So for example, if you wanted to contribute to the handbook, you'd obtain the latest version of it, and the required tools, make your changes, test them locally, then create patches and commit them (or send them in to be commited by someone else). Instead, if you wanted to update OS manual pages, you'd obtain the system's sources, modify and test the man page source file, create a patch, and send it in. Your primary tool here is a text editor. Depending on your individual preference, that could be vi, vim, emacs, mcedit, joe, something X-based, whatever fits your needs. It does not even matter. Reading "man diff" and "man patch" is probably also a significant advantage. There are other tools that might get involved. Allow me to drop a few relevant articles: 1. FreeBSD Documentation Project: Submitting documentation I have written some documentation. How do I submit it? https://www.freebsd.org/docproj/submitting.html 2. FreeBSD Documentation Project Primer for New Contributors https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/index.html 3. Committer's Guide https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/index.html A bit more general: Contributing to FreeBSD https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/index.html As I mentioned, there is also a mailing list where you can ask questions specifically related to documentation (and this list, freebsd-questions@, is absolutely appropritate for general questions such as this one). > I sent a PR from some account I created about a bug in the > loading of the kernel modules for bhyve. I'm starting to think > I didn't quite format it correctly or rather communicate the > issue correctly. I heard that filing PR's is also a good > starting point to get involved. Could someone help me find > the documentation that explains how to file a PR or update > documentation. The most convenient way to send a bug report is to use the following page: https://www.freebsd.org/support/bugreports.html You can even find a good outline of _how_ to file a bug report: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/problem-reports/ Older FreeBSD versions included a "send-pr" program. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 01:27:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1A72FBB14 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 01:27:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cp763FDxz4H76 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 01:27:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 18:27:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 18:27:40 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cp763FDxz4H76 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.48 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.62)[0.618]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.24)[0.237]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.72)[0.722]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 01:27:48 -0000 On 2020-06-03 14:54, Brandon Helsley wrote: > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most > of the contributions require at least minimal programming skills. My > question is whether or not there is anything I can contribute or > maintain for freebsd without any skills. What direction should I > take my education if I wish to be able to maintain a port. Is c++ > programming required? What else is required? On 2020-06-03 16:26, Brandon Helsley wrote: > By "without any skills" I mean that I'm new to computers and am not > even familiar with the terminology thrown around in the FreeBSD > community. > > I've never heard of this documentation updating, I'd love to learn > more. Who should I be talking to or where should I be referring to > so I can learn... > > I sent a PR from some account I created about a bug in the loading > of> the kernel modules for bhyve. I'm starting to think I didn't > quite format it correctly or rather communicate the issue correctly. > I heard that filing PR's is also a good starting point to get > involved. Could someone help me find the documentation that explains > how to file a PR or update documentation. Computer Science and Engineering (CS/E) is a huge field. More knowledge, projects, and products are added every day. The canonical way to learn CS/E is to pursue a CS/E curriculum at a school, college, or university. For self-learning, the starting point is to obtain a working personal computer (PC) and Internet access. I suggest a Windows or macOS desktop or laptop computer with at least a dual-core processor, virtualization support, 4 GB of RAM, and 120 GB of storage. Get an external USB drive and set up backups using the vendor-provided tools (e.g. "Backup and Restore" and "File History" for Windows, and "Time Machine" for macOS). Do not make any dramatic changes to the PC, and do not attempt to install FreeBSD or any other operating system (e.g. "dual boot"). To learn FreeBSD, get "Absolute FreeBSD" (AF3E) and read chapters 1-3: https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os#af3e Install virtualization software on your PC (I suggest VirtualBox). Create a virtual machine (VM). Install FreeBSD on the VM (see chapter 3 of AF3E). Don't worry if you make mistakes during installation -- delete the virtual machine and start over. Once you have a working FreeBSD VM, shut it down and take a snapshot. Get "Learning the Unix Operating System" and read chapters 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8. Type the commands shown into the VM and read the manual page for each command: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/learning-the-unix/0596002610/ Where you go next depends upon your goals. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 03:52:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D6A3296C1 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 03:52:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12olkn2012.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.23.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49csLV6v3Wz4ZN9 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 03:52:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=J9mmTMDEwXkNGTtWFA1GdKmhlYeF0scO2VoD1wHFV4lXLLLZmjK63FCakIa0xCp0p0MXYe1rOHThSPSh2kX5sGYCUMHL1pgLMbxOIWHGUePcIPqcs0w3q5XgzJz77mPGRUoLTveHApy3QhnomFBVCQZYhdQtcQ//JzZdZli9J248pU3wvG4bku+wf06Mor9q19mEt72WgDrEZIqpIe8PMJscWtCL+MelLyFANxcFXPnU7fMCZWLNQK3lEhvftOC1SZl0iuPbOF/Lb9MY79vNZ3h7ov0R5mDHceCWIrqp6rIVsYkcbbRjZ2Fn+si0vnQNqjHF3GI8veF48KlgIndkGw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.23.12:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 03:52:52 -0000 You said there is different areas of documentation=2E Does this separation = of areas just go by the handbook's sections? Could this mailing list please= elaborate on the subject of updating documentation? and what it takes to d= o this? For a specific area that I'm interested in, that would be the Netwo= rk servers, firewall and advanced networking chapters, since this is what I= want to learn=2E I'm assuming that's what you had meant about being intere= sted in a particular area or documentation=2E Thank you for all the advice so far=2E Now I can get on track with the rig= ht direction for my education=2E I will make sure I learn a little programm= ing, learn unix and study some kind of computer science that supports all t= he rest=2E And then of course continue to use FreeBSD with the updating han= dbook=2E=20 Brandon On June 3, 2020 6:00:51 PM MDT, Polytropon wrote: >On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 17:26:08 -0600, Brandon Helsley wrote: >> By "without any skills" I mean that I'm new to computers and >> am not even familiar with the terminology thrown around in >> the FreeBSD community=2E > >That's absolutely no problem=2E The more you use FreeBSD, the >better you will know the terminology, which is mostly out of >three classes: general computer terminology, UNIX terminology, >FreeBSD-specific terminology=2E It is important to understand >the meaning of termini technici originating in those classes, >and _what_ exactly to be "eloquent" at depends on the area >of documentation you want to deal with=2E > > > >> I've never heard of this documentation updating, I'd love to >> learn more=2E Who should I be talking to or where should I be >> referring to so I can learn=2E=2E=2E=20 > >The FreeBSD Documentation Project has its own sub-page: > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/docproj/ > >Which can be reached from the central documentation site: > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/docs=2Ehtml > >There is even a dedicated mailing list - freebsd-doc@freebsd=2Eorg >which is used to discuss documentation-specific issues=2E For use >with this mailing lists, as well as all other mailing lists, I >recommend this summary: > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/doc/en_US=2EISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-= faq/ > >Note that "documentation" doesn't just refer to manual pages; >it also includes project web pages, books and FAQ, publications, >maybe even the Wiki and other material=2E > >Note that the handbook you can access with your web browser >is, technically, nothing else than the same handbook you can >patch and rebuild on your local machine, be it HTML or PDF as >the target: Those results are generated from the same source=2E > >So for example, if you wanted to contribute to the handbook, >you'd obtain the latest version of it, and the required tools, >make your changes, test them locally, then create patches and >commit them (or send them in to be commited by someone else)=2E > >Instead, if you wanted to update OS manual pages, you'd obtain >the system's sources, modify and test the man page source file, >create a patch, and send it in=2E > >Your primary tool here is a text editor=2E Depending on your >individual preference, that could be vi, vim, emacs, mcedit, >joe, something X-based, whatever fits your needs=2E It does not >even matter=2E Reading "man diff" and "man patch" is probably >also a significant advantage=2E There are other tools that might >get involved=2E > >Allow me to drop a few relevant articles: > > 1=2E FreeBSD Documentation Project: Submitting documentation > I have written some documentation=2E How do I submit it? > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/docproj/submitting=2Ehtml > > 2=2E FreeBSD Documentation Project Primer for New Contributors > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/doc/en_US=2EISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/index= =2Ehtml > > 3=2E Committer's Guide > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/doc/en_US=2EISO8859-1/articles/committers-gu= ide/index=2Ehtml > >A bit more general: > > Contributing to FreeBSD > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/doc/en_US=2EISO8859-1/articles/contributing/= index=2Ehtml > >As I mentioned, there is also a mailing list where you can >ask questions specifically related to documentation (and >this list, freebsd-questions@, is absolutely appropritate >for general questions such as this one)=2E > > > >> I sent a PR from some account I created about a bug in the >> loading of the kernel modules for bhyve=2E I'm starting to think >> I didn't quite format it correctly or rather communicate the >> issue correctly=2E I heard that filing PR's is also a good >> starting point to get involved=2E Could someone help me find >> the documentation that explains how to file a PR or update >> documentation=2E > >The most convenient way to send a bug report is to use the >following page: > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/support/bugreports=2Ehtml > >You can even find a good outline of _how_ to file a bug report: > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/doc/en_US=2EISO8859-1/articles/problem-repor= ts/ > >Older FreeBSD versions included a "send-pr" program=2E :-) > > > > >--=20 >Polytropon >Magdeburg, Germany >Happy FreeBSD user since 4=2E0 >Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, =2E=2E=2E --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 05:41:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F90532C440 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:41:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cvm31YBhz3Xmg for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MeC5x-1j9JUH3QPf-00bH8x; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 07:41:35 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:41:34 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon Helsley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:41:40 -0000 On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 21:52:37 -0600, Brandon Helsley wrote: > You said there is different areas of documentation. Does this > separation of areas just go by the handbook's sections? Please check the links I provided. Primarily FreeBSD documentation contains the handbook / FAQ / books / articles you also find on the web page, and then there is the manpages that accompany the OS install. Ports contain their own documentation, independent from FreeBSD, and usually maintained by the port's upstream. > Could this mailing list please elaborate on the subject of > updating documentation? and what it takes to do this? As I mentioned, one part of the _FreeBSD_ documentation is what you find in the documentation port (freebsd-doc), and the other part is in the OS (/usr/src). For FreeBSD documentation: To obtain a current ports tree, use the following commands (typical example): # portsnap fetch extract # cd /usr/ports/misc/freebsd-doc-en # make # make install You can then go ahead and work with the sources in the work directory, and use tools like diff to create your patches to submit. The FreeBSD ports collection is explained here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/ports-using.html For manpages: You usually use the freebsd-update tool to install and update the "src" component (it should be the default already). But in this specific case, using the most current version of the sources probably is the better way, and this is done using the Subversion tool. Get the latest sources. Then you'll find manpages in /usr/src's subdirectories for all the components and sections. Again, you can use diff to create patches. The OS updating procedures are explained here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/makeworld.html Of course you don't need to install the kernel and the OS userland - you just want the manpage source files. :-) Sidenote: You can obtain the most current ports tree with svn (Subversion) as well, but for a first impression, I'd say the convenient binary methods are a good point to start. However, in actual contribution, you'll always want the latest (!) version available, and that is what svn delivers. > For a specific area that I'm interested in, that would be the > Network servers, firewall and advanced networking chapters, > since this is what I want to learn. I'm assuming that's what > you had meant about being interested in a particular area or > documentation. That is a broad topic. :-) FreeBSD itself offers several aspects of networking servers, firewalls, and of course the whole networking stacks and drivers; and there are ports that contain stuff, first of all things like web servers. > Thank you for all the advice so far. Now I can get on track > with the right direction for my education. I will make sure > I learn a little programming, learn unix and study some kind > of computer science that supports all the rest. And then of > course continue to use FreeBSD with the updating handbook. If you don't mind, I'd suggest to dedicate a workstation PC or a laptop for FreeBSD, while having a second computer (or a smartphone) for web access (documtnation, mailing lists, or web forums). Start by installing FreeBSD. Set up your working environment. On the way of doing so, you will already learn a lot. Then examine what you _can_ contribute, and decide what you _want_ to contribute to. Depending on that decision, the steps to take (as mentioned above) are a bit different, still they share a certain skillset and tools. It also helps if you read (or at least skim through) the documentation that already exists, to get a feeling of what you will be dealing with. As I said, the FreeBSD documentation basically works with the port that turns input files into a variety of output formats, while the manpages use their own "language". You can easily check how those look like. You can also get an impression of the writing style and terminology used. Example manpage files can be found on any FreeBSD install in /usr/share/examples/mdoc/ where template files can be found. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 05:55:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D555B32C899 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from merlyn@geeks.org) Received: from mail.geeks.org (jacobs.geeks.org [204.153.247.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cw4F0HBSz3ZM9 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:55:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from merlyn@geeks.org) Received: from mail.geeks.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by after-clamsmtpd.geeks.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33738EE87 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:55:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mail.geeks.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 14A82EE86; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:55:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 00:55:34 -0500 From: Doug McIntyre To: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Migrating To Python 3.x Message-ID: <20200604055534.GA40717@geeks.org> References: <02676140-06dd-a947-b7b4-0f6ccbeaf773@tundraware.com> <20200602040748.ewkrdmnk6qrq2vn6@ozzmosis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200602040748.ewkrdmnk6qrq2vn6@ozzmosis.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cw4F0HBSz3ZM9 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of merlyn@geeks.org designates 204.153.247.1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=merlyn@geeks.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.16 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.899]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[geeks.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.891]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.074]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7753, ipnet:204.153.244.0/22, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:55:41 -0000 On Tue, Jun 02, 2020 at 02:07:48PM +1000, andrew clarke wrote: > On 2020-06-01 17:03:50, Tim Daneliuk (tundra@tundraware.com) wrote: > > > I have a number of servers with rather complex mail/dns/web server > > configurations that are stable and have been running happily for many years > > needing nothing more than monthly patching. > > > > But Python 2.x is EOL at the end of this year. Can anyone suggest a > > strategy for moving from 2.x to 3.x? > > > > Also concerned about what to do with mailman since mailman3 never has made > > it to the ports tree as best as I can determine. > > I notice there's a PR for adding mail/mailman3 to Ports: > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225543 > > Though work dates back to 2018 and seems to have stalled. Presumably it needs > feedback/testing/feeding. :-) mailman3 is not mailman2++. mailman3 needs fixing to be more than a developer work-in-progress. Best to look at some of the alternatives mentioned earlier in the thread, or become a developer to make it a workable product. 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=t+FQw+uH; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.42.70 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.90 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.42.70:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.924]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.42.70:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:56:42 -0000 Thank you, I'm minimally familiar with the port files but I know where and what they are, so I think it would be a great starting point. So is this kind of contribution limited to submitting patches or is there some kind of other persistent communication with the "upstream", whatever that means. Could you tell me what this tool "diff" is. I' bet I'll have to learn it myself but if you could give me an overview and familiarize me that would be great too. Right now I already have dedicated a PC to FreeBSD. I'm quite intimidated by the editing of configuration files but have managed to install and configure fluxbox and other simple GUI's. I'm currently working on making it a mail server but am stuck for now. Other than simple configurations like firewalls or jails or virtualbox I find FreeBSD difficult too learn. I'm progressing though!!! I'll work on understanding port files and sources as my next step. > > On Jun 3, 2020 at 11:41 PM, Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 21:52:37 -0600, Brandon Helsley wrote: > You said there is different areas of documentation. Does this > separation of areas just go by the handbook's sections? Please check the links I provided. Primarily FreeBSD documentation contains the handbook / FAQ / books / articles you also find on the web page, and then there is the manpages that accompany the OS install. Ports contain their own documentation, independent from FreeBSD, and usually maintained by the port's upstream. > Could this mailing list please elaborate on the subject of > updating documentation? and what it takes to do this? As I mentioned, one part of the _FreeBSD_ documentation is what you find in the documentation port (freebsd-doc), and the other part is in the OS (/usr/src). For FreeBSD documentation: To obtain a current ports tree, use the following commands (typical example): # portsnap fetch extract # cd /usr/ports/misc/freebsd-doc-en # make # make install You can then go ahead an d work with the sources in the work directory, and use tools like diff to create your patches to submit. The FreeBSD ports collection is explained here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/ports-using.html For manpages: You usually use the freebsd-update tool to install and update the "src" component (it should be the default already). But in this specific case, using the most current version of the sources probably is the better way, and this is done using the Subversion tool. Get the latest sources. Then you'll find manpages in /usr/src's subdirectories for all the components and sections. Again, you can use diff to create patches. The OS updating procedures are explained here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/makeworld.html Of course you don't need to install the kernel and the OS userland - you just want the manpage source files. :-) Sidenote: You can obtain the most current ports tree with svn (Subversion) as well, but for a first impression, I'd say the convenient bina ry methods are a good point to start. However, in actual contribution, you'll always want the latest (!) version available, and that is what svn delivers. > For a specific area that I'm interested in, that would be the > Network servers, firewall and advanced networking chapters, > since this is what I want to learn. I'm assuming that's what > you had meant about being interested in a particular area or > documentation. That is a broad topic. :-) FreeBSD itself offers several aspects of networking servers, firewalls, and of course the whole networking stacks and drivers; and there are ports that contain stuff, first of all things like web servers. > Thank you for all the advice so far. Now I can get on track > with the right direction for my education. I will make sure > I learn a little programming, learn unix and study some kind > of computer science that supports all the rest. And then of > course continue to use FreeBSD with the updating handbook. If you don't mind, I'd suggest to dedicate a workstation PC or a laptop for FreeBSD, while having a second computer (or a smartphone) for web access (documtnation, mailing lists, or web forums). Start by installing FreeBSD. Set up your working environment. On the way of doing so, you will already learn a lot. Then examine what you _can_ contribute, and decide what you _want_ to contribute to. Depending on that decision, the steps to take (as mentioned above) are a bit different, still they share a certain skillset and tools. It also helps if you read (or at least skim through) the documentation that already exists, to get a feeling of what you will be dealing with. As I said, the FreeBSD documentation basically works with the port that turns input files into a variety of output formats, while the manpages use their own "language". You can easily check how those look like. You can also get an impression of the writing style and terminology used. Example manpage files can be found on any FreeBSD install in /usr/share/examples/mdoc/ where template files can be found. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 06:23:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1366532D2B7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 06:23:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cwgv6g22z3csg for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 06:23:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M5xDJ-1jawWR3eEl-007SNa; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:23:05 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:23:04 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:dLjvmPS8o6mpXgDR+6pw3UtTek4WQsBEcD4djzSNYRGKxKY87FH Om9D714HKUYGej6x3zUf0XSZWCy05yvRG9fvCjI8ShVmDrvyKiVUPbr8DVQMzWIl1+2ZFLM XNrQP6LeVp4jUUgSqIe8ouiYDuZkdvoNakxbTlCRA6aUqIWcpak01kEmOe9G07Qq96iqpFL P4bQtAtZfIVqweY/rbw7Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:PvTUGFjFYGs=:C8jFHQ91W36Gw4cX96y1D9 /1bOyvstXyvlvS/UqCVhXTU6h23q5Doj5j4Ti6t42dBecMrbysmoF95/QLqaxNv6r8ATmk4XT ftyJQ/chuzHMn0HuDqiPu+sVdkvZQg+EmzNfv/PyDmq9urv/6qJIEQ9lZ4/61/5FwXdcbwC5e rB5zj98KCLz4G6jSedwaURrqrNMrjRQnsQGQXurGpIWwLt3d70IU2y62TtgmPwHnR200xQE3f uZhV4cVzlC27tts7iieuXatWRh0lI+1ImSocnPX+5IsN9Hr+EAcHbb2QEJUVBUw4AWQ6dy55e OTAd+eB8xHWrhlb1zJ344Mcpq6Vk96qiFLqUNsTooIL/7RAHJv0SEQb7ggo+LkL49CTD7JilW c8NOoR0t8+lODsWAiygSwckNSWGDRQ0sK3NO3CgEet9PEvpHyni0jr2VTe+aaoaMlFhfvyhex cAYR6fgSRGtOMi9B/iijeK6cYDLX+p4w0ry7gqQkbcaaGhKIrSAuYs2vuVGqHxzxx62bCQEAz oQUd0re5haeigEwVV0tXBzqyTEcwqS3f7lSDTcqOhH5AaLdKZtiYp3MkQlKmhVYF5MqZaI5qM 3KMGxQjh8arS1Of6LwkRCz+6Dp35bL5c6BhZ5pEd0patcsNxDGzra081X3hAtjCr9zKQOfbj2 ZfO26RdnANB6r6Xb+iGMxNsJOZgWz1IXP2NLLrL905LTjHFxoCgTvpahinmGXpxCi9vBWZG3R 3vWI/byvHADGhks/9U9M0SEPvLjbrvdfdtjkEh/0xfY/6Yv0Wx700n1OUO8Es8A7GVuo8iKQX jeNRtM8rgtu6Vn37fIi3z+RlyHGy7IpHrd/bjHCQRC1CCSXZ+NA9DDOQ3iOCvX4FnfIWG4rGp iq6pWJ34FsQyvW/7A0Nw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cwgv6g22z3csg X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.67 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.24)[0.236]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.29)[-0.291]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.32)[0.323]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 06:23:09 -0000 On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Thank you, I'm minimally familiar with the port files but I know > where and what they are, so I think it would be a great starting > point. I think so, too. The handbook sections about updating and using the ports collection is a real treasure trove. > So is this kind of contribution limited to submitting patches or > is there some kind of other persistent communication with the > "upstream", whatever that means. Depends on the project / port. I would probably check the docs that come with the port and see how they ("upstream" - those who write and maintain the initial program) would like the contributors to communicate. For FreeBSD (as the OS), patches are the easiest way of adding something new; they can be submitted with a bug report and request for inclusion. > Could you tell me what this tool "diff" is. A diff (the tool, the process, and its result) means "difference". For example, if you find a manpage where the explanation for a certain option is missing, you take the original file, make a working copy of it, change that working copy, and create a file that contains the difference (i. e., the diff, also often called the patch) between the original and the updated version. This diff can then be sent to the FreeBSD team, and they will apply it; the next issue of FreeBSD will then contain the updated manpage instead of the original one. See "man diff" and "man patch" for details. Persons who have proven to be trusted contributors will get direct access to the source code repository: they can check in their changes by themselves. Here is a simplified outline of the process: # cd /usr/src/bin/ls # cp ls.1 ls.1.orig # vim ls.1 ... you make your changes ... :wq # diff ls.1 ls.1.orig > ls.1.diff Now ls.1.diff is what will be submitted. On the FreeBSD team's side, something like this happens: # cd /usr/src/bin/ls # patch < ls.1.diff # svn commit Yes, this is actually _very_ simplified. :-) > I' bet I'll have to learn it myself but if you could give me > an overview and familiarize me that would be great too. You will definitely have to learn the required tools, but in my opinion, that's worth doing it, and documentation contributors are one of the most important people in a project. Never undervalue good documentation. > Right now I already have dedicated a PC to FreeBSD. I'm quite > intimidated by the editing of configuration files but have > managed to install and configure fluxbox and other simple > GUI's. That is an excellent starting point. So more or less, you already have the foundation for further work. You can refine such an environment by choosing what window manager or desktop environment fits your needs best, what programs (web browsers, editors, PDF viewers and so on) you like best, and tailor the installation for optimal use. > I'm currently working on making it a mail server but am stuck > for now. Why do you want to make a PC (I assume it is intended to be used as a workstation) a mail _server_? Not that this is impossible - don't get me wrong! -, but what is the reason? I would even say it's probably better to install a MUA (a mail user agent, an "email program", a mailer) so you can use it to conveniently (!) read and write mails. There are many GUI MUAs that you can use, or if you prefer, you can use a TUI (text-mode based) mailer in an X terminal, if that is your choice. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with installing and using Thunderbird, the de-facto standard mailer nowadays. > Other than simple configurations like firewalls or jails or > virtualbox I find FreeBSD difficult too learn. Everything worth learning might look hard at the beginning. But always remember: If you feel learning is hard, that's just a sign that your brain is _actually_ learning, i. e., it does what you want it to do. The brain likes learning. > I'll work on understanding port files and sources as my next step. The Porter's Handbook provides a great overview. You can see it in action with your installed ports tree. You should also understand the purpose and basic use of Subversion (svn), as version control is a significant aspect of working both with the ports collection and the system sources, if you want to do more than just using it to install stuff. The answers to questions like "What do I have to do?" mostly depend on _you_ answering the question "What do you want to do?" ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 07:58:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D39732EB59 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cyp8592jz43hs for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:58:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: JUMVNbYVM1l6AW2.Kzfjqtyy683yqD_uGgjfYDimEoNQo2KnyPfjpCKTipjw_Y3 W4ONnV1W3WWA49kKkvUekTvenGkXP2.N5VC6iEEC7QYS4vqZMJnBbZ96y92FQwZpDEGs3hy_lGqR D8vaOLP2Bfrz5.nNyFIsy0eMq9hBTMnZlO8BjCKh1XXL6vcX5bJc2Ano4RwxK5p6NMn5UxzN0v2D RvsyRi4Z0Lsni2zxJ3Bg3kICHRkPnbW9ihsJ6DS_OFatRhVdI3fKMcXbOOAf728jGCxTs91kKB6P .zvDTYiTSuUCkUIbMsN9vMabm_tpgoUyhwCiMJeHPXw3TyFuxmn4DCfLWC4fDCAizwahOgaHkT2a sZJrsAk_nBpZuy.wNPaqnlVgR6gPmSTGEBU1i7FD2ZFoFe1Cxw13apVjV5O77o5PRgLSOnXIMHmf fFtMFFGuJVhytHqUB6Usha_zoNo9C2YZP6gm1NL2m5To0R.bh81z_vgj1AqXUNqhZSy6XlZLsoJ3 T5jibTwBfjRLi4bx.2Aj5dsb8rdK63GEYoaKe56liQpB9DPrHlux_j4I4YLkXaO50IhvDuvYFQrk s.x2W0ih8h_qPHQmPk6rwi860SkqFY6_JBsJGvEC177K0tEIyktOBP5RhDZtxiW.YmA5iu_CTrpE NSX_dLTUV_kjTTg1odiwDw5v4iEp_VVpge6aIiXUzFQR4vHJxsbh4veI.2G_BL.fzYGk4Ab4SrkU onXaz3E.b1mHFPC8h4g90Cy_i9g2GQR3OOFBWwug0XYVJgb65wTdbBDS.9MxPHC5h.SNTxlqQi7p Rthcgf9jfsySltKZEnKfEKWtKMBoWlbvyxKJlfoTlUpl4zpXaX_dSdIGiluiF_6LPL7Lw7jFViMA d8IMKO4jn0eL4smIAdXUVf1H9fTZz2elWwh4o5B6GAmDW9K730znE.aww0yPzbxQ7O4.LhafbPJG Zyobi6rweqnVAW_hTjsJRm1Lenkp53ZSxbHsx1HAc8.JiySqIpTeYm78.yjXONiJg2A1.jODp9wF YVvtwC1sMqlJLhWIHnr5BIGsJPTIlpBLewuNCnkccM0ZCEpnRiwuLDJrycw33DamO3lEaXEiQkET v_wRTpLjrtDeofAlL2rFokKl9hLCNHNdD1vChpPk_ybpuee51p1_yYXRu2SVI0fkCLfj3eQWT.8y CAecSzwQZQMI3beFWCL7t7Z4fId6zvaqFk9QGNaP9yvv2_Ta3jn_fFqxQHgVWVRsSS0ala0qRT2M teaS2e7hw1Z6MGr6N376Do6QJIRK0nmrzRsJ2E1TPueuP7ehHFRgN7qvGb56fJL3nbfsqIj_ZW29 OWw95JBU.HxdWKY_8.E0_O6dY.nFZHKkZSW.H6Y5B2q_ML84jLFsB7O7E_XAiQq.oYFSADwrphf. rWR9HfgOC24oGG5ABSw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:58:38 +0000 Received: by smtp426.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0e80e56174cda2608a69f53374d1efcf; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 07:58:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:58:38 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604095838.20d6b074@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cyp8592jz43hs X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.189:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.898]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.189:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 07:58:42 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:41:34 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >If you don't mind, I'd suggest to dedicate a workstation PC >or a laptop for FreeBSD, while having a second computer (or >a smartphone) for web access (documtnation, mailing lists, >or web forums). On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 18:27:40 -0700, David Christensen wrote: >For self-learning, the starting point is to obtain a working personal >computer (PC) and Internet access. I suggest a Windows or macOS >desktop or laptop computer [...] Do not make any dramatic changes to >the PC, and do not attempt to install FreeBSD or any other operating >system (e.g. "dual boot"). [...] >Install virtualization software on your PC (I suggest VirtualBox). >Create a virtual machine (VM). Install FreeBSD on the VM (see chapter >3 of AF3E). Don't worry if you make mistakes during installation -- >delete the virtual machine and start over. Once you have a working >FreeBSD VM, shut it down and take a snapshot. Hi, it's not easy to decide which of those two approaches is the better one. I would say it's better to install FreeBSD on bare metal. While the recommendation to use VirtualBox is very good, since it's the easiest to use virtual machine, I dislike this idea for two reasons. To learn how to maintain a computer, it's wise to learn the basics regarding hardware and software, so it's way better to avoid a virtual machine that fakes hardware and getting your hands dirty by touching real hardware. Btw. starting with a desktop tower PC and a screwdriver IMO is better, than starting with a laptop, since IMO you literally should get in touch with the hardware. I started with hardware modified C64 and Atari ST computers. In the beginning a friend helped me with the hardware. The Atari ST had a 80286 hardware emulator and was running DR DOS. I learned different levels of programming BASIC, PASCAL, Assembler, Turbo C++. Later I migrated to a Windows 98 and user-friendly Linux distro dual-boot PC, before I used FreeBSD and a user-centric (non-user-friendly) Linux distro. I do not program with programming languages anymore and I do not modify computer hardware using a soldering iron anymore. Nowadays I only write shell scripts and I only piece together ready-made computer modules. A desktop tower PC's motherboard has got slots to connect hardware cards, RAM etc. and shell scripts are quite powerful. It's good that I used programming languages and a soldering iron in the past, but not necessarily needed to maintain a modern computer. Btw. one of my few contributions to FLOSS communities is helping novices with Ubuntu Linux. My recommendation before starting with a BSD or not user-friendly Linux distro is to start with a user-friendly Linux distro. A dual-boot with e.g. Windows isn't necessarily required. Consider to use Ubuntu first. While for some domains I'm using an iPad, e.g. for drawing, the idea that a beginner should have a Smartphone or tablet computer is only useful to get information/help via Internet. A second PC or laptop would allow to download and e.g. burn software, something that might be even more helpful in some dead ends a greenhorn could experience. OTOH neighbours or friends might assist, if you need more than a Smartphone or tablet computer to fix an issue with your FreeBSD (or maybe Ubuntu ;) computer. Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:03:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3AE32EFD4 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:03:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic311-30.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic311-30.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cyvD6z25z448X for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:03:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: Be9LCBoVM1lj0xK9CDinBZYcHlRkPZ9B_HD3hxlpCOZToobUmOx9GERWK3hCHpo FTfGLmC2Wz6qJYnlITAy19_9knII9rmyHsdGY8KQctma7ak1VniIWI2zXRDKj8lctc4KZyBzQ1pG z665KSaJfx2A00IpIA5cchBlOzjHzGqpjp9Ja5_abU61MFkqCKWGrc2T7Vhf8I883dDWQROe812Y aT4CpJfKIhyd0npRtHvzJ.DiOhvn7hgq1eloNLHQWtOuvIikan_QKE1AV6JZocfEQ9cYkkilrP_1 ..wLEjrMVZnqoVZHSF3CDiHGup3AqRBarqz7v2I10.2P1Au33xeoC8j9wLaoOt1LkPrxAsEvjql_ g_lttvAtCMaQJZ44NGdWNj6oyAbG_gcOUC3Nn2ylq3pUAbMQHRbsUDOpBQoPEQAhVdveppTXqW1D gzoDyS8FyYIF_PMaKwMmAPw0QQxxzdBB_eE82lp7984PFIvS.Rty1ljbwol7b3NI5HB6bLo26DTi o8O9N7zB7HeA18IPlq7XEByZ3hCaGtLEc5IYoZ50JmojJiyPvJqo8WrWfv7Sx8xf5dmxfDHzBjrd C...WMX6BMsQwh7eC5pPY7vb_jqjUPGsR5H..2zOe5f_nck4XqvDmSOZp2QHCeeG3lCkDckVw_Nv 0BDBkbRfa1SYYC8LXC.Md.8KvUbHFhDQdCJ5uLmhSYYSH.Yk.Gd1wdGqOI6D4aPfUATVI1dO7BzA e0hlbiHpUWtaA38tIdX.YCK12j.vmHA8QZ8qB.cqbWqHbIrWJ9LNZNZXZUD4Q8CiDsczWpDUMoDC kVgE2bVocFwvgmuTH4H3esu6qjNhk7_c9xDTuLeK_iiRw2vBOkhqGjm7ocxWv6bCi6wb0JAm7RLi nxNhzCBlMkuYrg5.Bb6xBsblNtBYlV6l7JamOr.atN.ld7QsfRlKbisIMYt8oOeVBd372HmL.kSE mHA4os3ULpxCA6zIWx8b6CzhsRhTq7kiDWdoX3EAXl8Lu.KjivccM6GE8HBYdcOQkM9YUpgpcrLt a4AVr_6kFEFJJf.5yr4opzf83TPyZW3_CcF9KeAEA2wZI8xmkJBQFfRi.xDJLK9GMniggLy4eygW _0LbIDrVTOG.MoUGg2UFr2s0QDoNzyEho8houCn7tqjMAHMna5MeRzGcGUF9uN8XnEYhBj_SwjNM IKLw8wdAuBEg_mK5ngbWDS..zWDKqzR1YDgVdNrz.ir_Pe8dirB0p4HsuJAtc5m4R0WzuZfJVgsa 1GYlgdesHyzJ3yIlxgE_VC_Be1BQlHiLV8hOBVCqHg_CwETNBM02CITWwCZ1oTWiI91BAjaRDxbF fRGfo5Hs4s2HoMhRkElAdcpu0VD8.nXToyHGBxLFc_ye0815.8Su2bQfmKlo7qIwfbd753lYQbnY WcRt.6ZcvLspHseORE7myIjI- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:03:03 +0000 Received: by smtp418.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 91c439788354d0e3e8089242d6a7c94c; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:03:02 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:03:06 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604100306.4987bed7@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cyvD6z25z448X X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.43 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.016]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.162:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.903]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.162:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:03:05 -0000 PS: I forgot to mention the second reason speaking against a virtual machine. A virtual machine adds an additional layer. You need to learn how to handle the host/guest layer, this makes gaining basic knowledge more complicated. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:05:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628DB32F2C6 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:05:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic308-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic308-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cyxb4xtcz44M0 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:05:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: Dl_cxygVM1mtfUE2b4mNYHCBb65Lh73qQ2bD_hn6tqNzDLBu5tA0_nyqLQxatEa b4AahtgnECdJT19IRfJVaYGphDUm94iQE4MUz78rypmcRudtEDoFcCpyhgeERn5YlIHLR31DqVHr 4kF17306W5vul9i89.bCFx5yQDj.1mEP5b9dK4VN5Tosjtrvd9lItWoOdc7dz.e5nvPPJj1eAllr EmAjnkIZ5kc_jZNX_jUU3J8gpPIc2h1yc_hv4KX1EzM2rt6iatEF2zOipJ9AzPn9vmvpFaCbWmo_ ._i4BsgjcoSlb838T9sTPbzKYb0pmoVyxLMNVWjdffZ7MWlIxTPifxK5Pe.JpLP0_SgUAmrXEArC _2YwJWIG79f_O51hHm6WIkXKw5pfUv53w_Wb1suF79REEMLhGNDxJNMRz.LKafP9rCE.9OXJCVbJ UIKweYJ0bih2CxTtqjVLpgXejLideb8s7AStnO6YoWhLGDtX8TlWuLxUSkq.mp1vYOMj03PWl9rw EX5KPRoJBltzxQKkrQuM8nlU6.sxxhgKKJecMztAaeQAfOO0mxxfiFNmQOTKJNdIzsXJ4_l7OJrZ Xu1mSubjwhEBLwS78KgVw0_DfMntQv0ocWUCpH0_aRjUEGkxbvkybPlP9FHMG6xsrzaRzj4iiRk5 4KEefK0xR3DnwP6pNE7oJlwUPCjVVbBgRVWIxVmUHYIxUTX0OJejUbXaghx_5zz6eqRwrxzD2Gbg 84NegWPWglqcQBAxbdViGCiSVOaAiOGSJx4FTJMXerU5Bde9v1SG_Ifi7nHts.vAaCqwmipN5crz 4csdKJCA4wCcO86h10RIjugQEl.jY.6vC6R7XLVUFc1Bo4twg_M6clYq_j.txrn5X0XlmQrhy1OX Se1OG0FyZlDnTSJ0EIkPyryGlyUZ6CIUtccn0zxE79MAK6VE2Xy5UCZOIOj5yEkLHOY0Qga2bzMQ YlCH5SqUEGet0EmMcRAdubWIwEAdtXZYLNCuTvr6YlDiBu29XHH29B_83EQcPyDTHdCPIljp.cW3 SaIzEqPr6mPnuuDynsQl4Bcl7tP591NDit9WM9L0KXtWfdf2vJMhNUyNRB27gfsb9rDnW1cFoDxE .m0QqVFq3qdvQNqGG8Wt.cvDjmk.AgFSurBARoPk4UEeR4G_UTb.MARFwCQ3oYGrT1PXBuR04WCD eufz_YdaLeecqGn4XveVG1u1egY5q2bVTEkOyWsl8f0AEUuTQEswrvZ_xjwMA5eKiBO7jhWL_HU. 9juSU79s6MeDKK3h7AyD.3cfcQhTN0EDW6eEbEigTHHD6WNj1rOUNAx09tPwD.ip2BBdkBTZJXu. GYrfMGGbgP1xfD2FpHLuLoI8keo9dhFDet2ZP.C6YuDA1LnyulrJOk4U8T.fVtFtbzlhjtolVMZd YwTRe.J3rDyQTHBzu5w-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:05:07 +0000 Received: by smtp432.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ecb96b51a7d6b5361a084a24ee29f36a; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:05:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f182.google.com with SMTP id m7so1904020plt.5 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 01:05:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318fk0OzUkmXGX91jUCtZdJ4Uk45HMUEcVjLmYp8DN7+lxFGDQU MJU2iXUei8pk26IANVgsZ0rmqRWhmLOas9Tf/6c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNif7FXIhp7/WahOic7IYZMR2OF3CiC26DIhgkZSpzEYZxqZy6qk1j6fx/bEaF2KkFs+SnSO2qr9yWpJ2qXgs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4ecb:: with SMTP id v11mr4547819pjl.75.1591257902173; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 01:05:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:04:45 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49cyxb4xtcz44M0 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.16 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.034]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.187.31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.43)[-0.431]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.187.31:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:05:08 -0000 On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 at 22:54, Brandon Helsley wrote: > > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most of th= e contributions require at least minimal programming skills. My question is= whether or not there is anything I can contribute or maintain for freebsd = without any skills. What direction should I take my education if I wish to = be able to maintain a port. Is c++ programming required? What else is requi= red? You have posted a few similar threads on this subject but: > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Are you actually using FreeBSD? Before even thinking of contributing, why don't you give yourself 1 or 2 years of solid use of the operating system? Install, uninstall, break, fix, reinstall, configure. You can do this in a VM first and then maybe on real hardware. You don't go from n00b to developer in one day. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:13:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7050032F627 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:13:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12olkn2073.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.23.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cz7B5lpqz44sL for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:13:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=h43XcTWCpreNq+ZeeHfKeOHegv26/BefxLswR5KniM4AYzqUPNwfva3fgPk2BmaTylQ6QvOfC4FM/+XnM9A14fJZ1czRay/CgaIEyCu7WOVGrYU/4o0ELx8pxmIcuCzH08ArFkIdK1FLQCGthsSJA72qmAR8erTZq6Lkgy6xas1JLjiqvR73P77JOAbZN50UhTkzKJA+IIyWgGFnEZjghyR6YC7sklMZ7EqoPUbZ7N7bsjopj2ZYi8HQgMJW3QE4bBaX3Y/I8Fyi3Mk+0Wb5I5epVC3HCVRVAMOBFNvikiBX/lu4YgwqOuixOHZW/nZ8ewicTcRP0md1PXfBo6KYjw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.985]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.23.73:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.23.73:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:13:28 -0000 >Are you actually using FreeBSD? Before even thinking of contributing, why don't you give yourself 1 or 2 years of solid use of the operating system? Install, uninstall, break, fix, reinstall, configure. You can do this in a VM first and then maybe on real hardware. You don't go from n00b to developer in one day. I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it takes a couple years!!! > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 2:05 AM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 at 22:54, Brandon Helsley wrote: > > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most of the contributions require at least minimal programming skills. My question is whether or not there is anything I can contribute or maintain for freebsd without any skills. What direction should I take my education if I wish to be able to maintain a port. Is c++ programming required? What else is required? You have posted a few similar threads on this subject but: > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Are you actually using FreeBSD? Before even thinking of contributing, why don't you give yourself 1 or 2 years of solid use of the operating system? Install, uninstall, break, fix, reinstall, configure. You can do this in a VM first and then maybe on real hardware. You don't go from n00b to developer in one day. -- Ottavio Caruso _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:15:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C0432F992 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:15:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam12olkn2107.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.22.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cz902DFDz45GL for ; 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FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:15:01 -0000 I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it takes a couple years!!! > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 1:58 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:41:34 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >If you don't mind, I'd suggest to dedicate a workstation PC >or a laptop for FreeBSD, while having a second computer (or >a smartphone) for web access (documtnation, mailing lists, >or web forums). On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 18:27:40 -0700, David Christensen wrote: >For self-learning, the starting point is to obtain a working personal >computer (PC) and Internet access. I suggest a Windows or macOS >desktop or laptop computer [...] Do not make any dramatic changes to >the PC, and do not attempt to install FreeBSD or any other operating >system (e.g. "dual boot"). [...] >Install virtualization software on your PC (I suggest VirtualBox). >Create a virtual machine (VM). Install FreeBSD on the VM (see chapter >3 of AF3E). Don't worry if you make mistakes during installation -- >delete the virtual machine and start over. Once you have a working >FreeBSD VM, shut it down and take a snapshot. Hi, it's not easy to decide which of those two approaches is the better one. I would say it's better to install FreeBSD on bare metal. While the recommendation to use VirtualBox is very good, since it's the easiest to use virtual machine, I dislike this idea for two reasons. To learn how to maintain a computer, it's wise to learn the basics regarding hardware and software, so it's way better to avoid a virtual machine that fakes hardware and getting your hands dirty by touching real hardware. Btw. starting with a desktop tower PC and a screwdriver IMO is better, than starting with a laptop, since IMO you literally should get in touch with the hardware. I started with hardware modified C64 and Atari ST computers. In the beginning a friend helped me with the hardware. The Atari ST had a 80286 hardware emulator and was running DR DOS. I learned different levels of programming BASIC, PASCAL, Assembler, Turbo C++. Later I migrated to a Windows 98 and user-friendly Linux distro dual-boot PC, before I used FreeBSD and a user- centric (non-user-friendly) Linux distro. I do not program with programming languages anymore and I do not modify computer hardware using a soldering iron anymore. Nowadays I only write shell scripts and I only piece together ready-made computer modules. A desktop tower PC's motherboard has got slots to connect hardware cards, RAM etc. and shell scripts are quite powerful. It's good that I used programming languages and a soldering iron in the past, but not necessarily needed to maintain a modern computer. Btw. one of my few contributions to FLOSS communities is helping novices with Ubuntu Linux. My recommendation before starting with a BSD or not user-friendly Linux distro is to start with a user-friendly Linux distro. A dual-boot with e.g. Windows isn't necessarily required. Consider to use Ubuntu first. While for some domains I'm using an iPad, e.g. for drawing, the idea that a beginner should have a Smartphone or tablet computer is only useful to get information/help via Intern et. A second PC or laptop would allow to download and e.g. burn software, something that might be even more helpful in some dead ends a greenhorn could experience. OTOH neighbours or friends might assist, if you need more than a Smartphone or tablet computer to fix an issue with your FreeBSD (or maybe Ubuntu ;) computer. Regards, Ralf _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:15:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624A432F929 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:15:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-BN8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam12olkn2098.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.21.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49cz9H4VwMz45Tb for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:15:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=A+Yd0//X; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.21.98 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.96 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.21.98:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.21.98:from]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.975]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:15:16 -0000 I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it takes a couple years!!! > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 12:23 AM, Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Thank you, I'm minimally familiar with the port files but I know > where and what they are, so I think it would be a great starting > point. I think so, too. The handbook sections about updating and using the ports collection is a real treasure trove. > So is this kind of contribution limited to submitting patches or > is there some kind of other persistent communication with the > "upstream", whatever that means. Depends on the project / port. I would probably check the docs that come with the port and see how they ("upstream" - those who write and maintain the initial program) would like the contributors to communicate. For FreeBSD (as the OS), patches are the easiest way of adding something new; they can be submitted with a bug report and request for inclusion. > Could you tell me what this tool "diff" is. A diff (the tool, the process, and its result) means "difference". For example, if you find a manpag e where the explanation for a certain option is missing, you take the original file, make a working copy of it, change that working copy, and create a file that contains the difference (i. e., the diff, also often called the patch) between the original and the updated version. This diff can then be sent to the FreeBSD team, and they will apply it; the next issue of FreeBSD will then contain the updated manpage instead of the original one. See "man diff" and "man patch" for details. Persons who have proven to be trusted contributors will get direct access to the source code repository: they can check in their changes by themselves. Here is a simplified outline of the process: # cd /usr/src/bin/ls # cp ls.1 ls.1.orig # vim ls.1 ... you make your changes ... :wq # diff ls.1 ls.1.orig > ls.1.diff Now ls.1.diff is what will be submitted. On the FreeBSD team's side, something like this happens: # cd /usr/src/bin/ls # patch < ls.1.diff # svn commit Yes, this is actually _very_ simplified. :-) > I' bet I'll have to learn it myself but if you could give me > an overview and familiarize me that would be great too. You will definitely have to learn the required tools, but in my opinion, that's worth doing it, and documentation contributors are one of the most important people in a project. Never undervalue good documentation. > Right now I already have dedicated a PC to FreeBSD. I'm quite > intimidated by the editing of configuration files but have > managed to install and configure fluxbox and other simple > GUI's. That is an excellent starting point. So more or less, you already have the foundation for further work. You can refine such an environment by choosing what window manager or desktop environment fits your needs best, what programs (web browsers, editors, PDF viewers and so on) you like best, and tailor the installation for optimal use. > I'm currently working on making it a mail server but am stuck > for now. Why do you want t o make a PC (I assume it is intended to be used as a workstation) a mail _server_? Not that this is impossible - don't get me wrong! -, but what is the reason? I would even say it's probably better to install a MUA (a mail user agent, an "email program", a mailer) so you can use it to conveniently (!) read and write mails. There are many GUI MUAs that you can use, or if you prefer, you can use a TUI (text-mode based) mailer in an X terminal, if that is your choice. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with installing and using Thunderbird, the de-facto standard mailer nowadays. > Other than simple configurations like firewalls or jails or > virtualbox I find FreeBSD difficult too learn. Everything worth learning might look hard at the beginning. But always remember: If you feel learning is hard, that's just a sign that your brain is _actually_ learning, i. e., it does what you want it to do. The brain likes learning. > I'll work on understanding port files and sources as my nex t step. The Porter's Handbook provides a great overview. You can see it in action with your installed ports tree. You should also understand the purpose and basic use of Subversion (svn), as version control is a significant aspect of working both with the ports collection and the system sources, if you want to do more than just using it to install stuff. The answers to questions like "What do I have to do?" mostly depend on _you_ answering the question "What do you want to do?" ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:19:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A4532FADD for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:19:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic308-17.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic308-17.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49czGb68jRz45yQ for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: mLXLhHsVM1nO.0HDAoIjaNK9SzkQDNKGuX5D6KzOTN2PYfOo.BZxXvMIYcz_gtm OqdwwAtzcQAIr0acEnwtJB0NB4SG5QT3Pxply_2vg5hsFxXMTh32Ymf7wH4sFWzyNM.._wpfOeIr EFkHQDAu8fA7PCon.9w3eutB.RsJcIkjyhP7nlzkYSqa4a85hZWrwivDUCNg6IHCpQpsg66hKq03 WXHVMMaubWmpbHXIn__AUG_WqHTZGB6j9NAWFYXKtC5oAGLq5w9Lf4LveW.k3W4RSwOl_QUGYlWy 30gxUvhQKdS_ku_dyK0TtiTtP.rG4CFjweubiWBtaff4MnhgvPgAVqBvzNXIZnKk6XdTvdu22KJK uAOBLnWVLy0n7lhbW0tKmuPqCcDKXaXC2evkwSIXZNSMfAUx7FbtEhR6SecA9mLHbuYDiLWPj8UN 34QlN4EbmMv_jHsHtb.Se_97iPd5NYO4AfbNQq1rSkptnUQKtedk2nl6gvX38nnd7iI3SRWiUMEA 8Ans1gu.JG2XhQZ13yqfvsEpaYM4pY4JOkPzcmsvNxYC774T.jjzqju4w0B_1g60JUwZoO4eUqKk vgV1bFeANmSU2aqEjGZuG6FgPWOu6_ffHOFxl1HYf55l4RMR2JpZ6VCUa6KQrLp2y3fm.Tefzynv HmAycJ0PBfBmVAyumct1W8m8Rs7Kxmp8bxkalyFcprGKZT4.aIvLozAYPM486gsea0di4_v_uH9E eBLVtBlGfZkwiuFDqWOHviVdCXwAoBRWGshvD52DggFL6Ia9xnRPTrQjqOCGpxTaOoMDKiDYk7sk 3.5_6XgW7l19T2QTG6s2eyoCDmbUn0bD5Ml74euCUtHjCUePJtrsHF41Dp2rfUCbhgMRGLblWSmJ GNfMnffLHm.pA_truLzP7UfJN6ikDaWmfJs7EEFVnHlmuUW_6augek3zA9SDJ0pdx6td6rfUJYMN lnHyRjJvlw_2FBnAk9Lol21pnyDxu1159Fs5fpx0ELkpF.KHfFW3JCAZKDKPUU8OORH3UWbymRp5 mvyy5OOLnI8bAVaLI1PE9k2t9tCL3LdSokSNWnP7h.Yp9VT6OzhGhYoVSydO8zb9ddXQI22gFZZd gcI73TlFuSOxoZXrte_Hsjml0p8elfhp4O12sXQZL1fujP.iQYdr2zos7Tgj5bjaOd4T6_nFOS3a hTlBmi511ZjWln5uxMmxl4MRQ9F65.WuaW1A13_BCGCmjaOyXfE95rAt8gHiq6s4PExsCgzZebc8 _bV4V964ZpYPSzDhlJdjnOQS0iJU2aq5jGjgd9RONb7qOy5_T_ZTMIgZiZztyaICiG68FcX0M8ZM eqGb9xDZ6KOSJtswuVMandnufOFczEY_nAOkIX3tMI0nT5m23Yj58J7PH_uMugsqdKQHRe53Fn8C MBGKSMElT8tZmCxuVMaUEGg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:19:49 +0000 Received: by smtp422.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7360b287b2733db4cd57fcb9c4571c91; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:19:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:19:52 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604101952.4e13fe6e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49czGb68jRz45yQ X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.51 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.016]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.145:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.988]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.145:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:19:53 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:23:04 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >> diff An example of basic shell commands, done on GNU Linux bash, but it's not really different to FreeBSD and/or another shell ;). [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_a.txt; echo "1234" >> file_a.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_b.txt; echo "5678" >> file_b.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_a.txt 1234 1234 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_b.txt 1234 5678 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ diff file_a.txt file_b.txt 2c2 < 1234 --- > 5678 >Why do you want to make a PC (I assume it is intended to be >used as a workstation) a mail _server_? If this is the domain the OP likes, it's probably a good project to learn, right after having basic skills in writing shell scripts. 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=RcsmnE4z; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.11.88 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.86 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.001]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.980]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.11.88:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.11.88:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.876]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[freebsd.org,rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:25:35 -0000 >An example of basic shell commands, done on GNU Linux bash, but it's not really different to FreeBSD and/or another shell ;). >[rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_a.txt; echo "1234" >> file_a.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_b.txt; echo "5678" >> file_b.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_a.txt 1234 1234 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_b.txt 1234 5678 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ diff file_a.txt file_b.txt 2c2 < 1234 --- > 5678 >Why do you want to make a PC (I assume it is intended to be >used as a workstation) a mail _server_? >If this is the domain the OP likes, it's probably a good project to learn, right after having basic skills in writing shell scripts. First, before I try to understand that. What exactly is "writing shell scripts" is this similar to editing resource script files like .xinitrc or .xsession? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 2:20 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:23:04 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >> diff An example of basic shell commands, done on GNU Linux bash, but it's not really different to FreeBSD and/or another shell ;). [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_a.txt; echo "1234" >> file_a.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_b.txt; echo "5678" >> file_b.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_a.txt 1234 1234 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_b.txt 1234 5678 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ diff file_a.txt file_b.txt 2c2 < 1234 --- > 5678 >Why do you want to make a PC (I assume it is intended to be >used as a workstation) a mail _server_? If this is the domain the OP likes, it's probably a good project to learn, right after having basic skills in writing shell scripts. _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo /freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:28:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AEF32FC69 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:28:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49czSL61BKz46nP for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:28:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: rO.RyIwVM1kD7pNJ8SApkWljUaZp5XJsqLpR53vacXCxVOewV.BOuu2B8mzDwsE vw1cnqmtszHCgr2LIKVVJM.7lEfGVzBqtdwwkwjFJNxjDuRa1qClrTVjWafqnrU9a3DKbMpzxerl caSyMBMEaAhu3bWWMGufXv2xZRTCqZj.Y8_CiKurP0FGGK8pLGxWvgOBR3pIDPHahalqNs7h.Egn 8xHxC4SGwD8cYgM499MgnW8OtHj9grWUKP12FD4xS_Ei4s0fBu4BHiJ37SlVjqtvXYiTnAf1dnul c0vs0IhPrR3cRLH2BcBSHhxUWSij2eaTC8oD8VsyEwazb0nciyv76Ci_TpWviwo9ODL0Df.2meYH JtTNhdFocezVt06qi6NN5u6gH9vjFFntsTkQWDOHyIZFBalNDdGCFivnQwha6J5.9MqAgLLspxmo MW3Oz1HPfOAvM_Uya2MEdfWqYYhD6DrvuMNm.z6ZtOJuCfNuLbVSf_mX0YkB1Vhw_4ApIMj9Bljz eZ9YMVXRkFZp9d9hHqK8ItGFK0lfXoLvpW3a9yZtVl6T8xvV9URRMEy.VjJ8EU_hBL..Ax0CTHjd MbzfA3J0B_9wssXhWTgPkz6ICnmTC035yaaNj.rNX.OXceDJAYcLDLWYHFjkRsKhHLhPkpj6FPcg 7R8bjAgbXKgNibnaTNNZwioGJlje95Q5w.xeWM7uNtimOQENWGzna4tHSHGiH25dUHyen36_wjuE 0uSicFEy24jwN4bAPK9z4Lgah0onIdm.z8W8H.VgBSA8VkXA3v5GsFRz0RGXRktDCfWcJjV5BrbK hRJ4ntoKZHdkUSD_lDd9ibsK5Yf1mu9YZ5eyhqiybxre2fq9wpZBUAo5g7WZ7ejdoyQ1B87qoPww CV2rgOaow782RaOusLUaqIzeUnISfB1gNat2_eAI.844wo5CBMshyKGKPXLzAa5Es12Pi60PhYKJ Lh_1sODTzSpOiTWOz9FSm_RwaFVHSu1D3FUOZsTDXk9g1dyGQnYc9tcnGSD1IfIo.JUGdn2q4uui cCiLxTQPqZSLeoDaEgx0bazHTn2iLgmQNvO.8kqH3ceE9Y0EKJ8bbRG1XQmmV9McxX4dHTdiR44E DLoKflCuKSqUbMLH4iqkPfEaAG8jX9SzsOinQod0rvD562xQoQeCrDHdVWvnUPx3ORWiUQHrzrXp KO4Bq_ruALcWavkEWb2TUsAvL.CsDjVzOuA0chTvQVUq6ZJtoq4D1r4B8ZK8fPTiIgxynZaAMNAp IBIwyLfNL9wGiMXDHesSeAi2l8E9QEyscugeI6abXbznowLqAA0LZzMVVxke2LX_yKcFiGU82eNq 0UO2yejhTwZalNj8M_fWTuLQG6vtY6OSW_7_.4ncfV3NAZyr8C9mDJTIYn2kU1LOEywCq4p.eCHC NqCNFpu3zQDTeQQGHu_mS0II- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:28:16 +0000 Received: by smtp414.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c037be334287b377147c12bf8ddde904; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:28:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:28:15 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604102815.6538071c@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49czSL61BKz46nP X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.51 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.017]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.016]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.96:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.991]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.96:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:28:19 -0000 PS: [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ diff file_a.txt file_b.txt 2c2 < 1234 --- > 5678 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo $? 1 The OP might want to google why 'echo $?' returns 1 and what it is good for ;). IMO those are the things a novice should do before maintaining a mail server or port. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:39:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D861D32FF40 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:39:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic306-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.205]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49czj443f5z480L for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:39:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: YTiEyCUVM1ldzM_c77r20MOUMcdJRf7XEfyDoRgWaj8IGfCQ5tqFZgigh5c74VC F96d2UgHEuPZ_yqX1UxCjBdEgE6bS515khYQnjyZJNwHr7aYSWcWGjH_ZqUMlFd..PnSicWKSwxx 18PvMFEmtqkB4B6cHGKpTwaObo4L3v62ML6_m81ixUGWLZ1O5GTRt.LCZ8vsyGp6tyZWPgo0GCYZ EUUXGSHrR9I6HGAkpgGLRyrQm5DqdyOw0v_tWvaVYEIH2zyGifabKomSb6qh_anKTXglCygTuIFJ Nj_m2C_IVtHWBK7FoosuHQLoxBdJxGZGUwLRZxITcStApIk8wVKuMne2Tl7xnM2kYn3tGb9oPgQF 0_KOGoVoYU2Rtd6rxk9zcCHkrjlDD0iIIP5_jhMsLFpL_CjTr9lf5wLbaDKLAgfjoQi38SPY0iA2 YyQvSwkBR2YaudKVhSMylm0OLS4jlPBzY7vmZeCKQKX2pabsVT3QQiJPw.vdGwqJMB1houu7G56c k4R5o1i47NFAnF7G1Zl_DZCan_gxO3U36dNj7dXIeVou7uQMjehVDogECHdttJrV_roL5NkNxmx3 0jw3ksGkO70ucz6PSL8T3iJZgiP.AJSnIw21RrbNufolf7vP9QcHobWUYaFHivwE3YIN1btQy6U4 hh9zUswWTzYn1lhatof6as3GYS4bsjIDhhA2FK_Zgvm2miSixEtbI2XiL_HbphVX7Qvb.lzbD9oP DMf1OJLjTnmcDOro4heihgzBahCpKDyRKmb51ihVA8wUrZy.lzkuQUbHxOCRzJWc7m.sUm.Jj1pC fyW0khl3EOZ4BsfQ0X_gZFrYZ5LgK1ABW47.H24cEASDlZ.7x0X7sEpV2f5oe5TxJuJG9q.HvWkH wn7Zv_77ePEyStHiHtTGh3pQdcY2KskOnxjw6skT4Uv5OaMrqdegRqnQGl18MnacJcmoBxz3jpPw ZBTU_KKYNRx.YAOEQ9GxeCzNutoLhP1PznVX920ZkR9zg0_iGWn_ekLH8gp8SazCkZFqZ4x5mK97 0jpP1DZw3mn5tE.I5OEK9qoAYIEHVLGMlAaQEOph5hpDEP6YDjQ5lJKULMjBrfKP9UOpO5Cb7wsm 3ri7fPUwiUFYo5QbphEJQfZ4QhVlZMtKNCKEqV.BesBI6._hyuwIwMYIw1WEAE1wyGNpOLG5.phd X.I6hPHQzArGGR7nEfuur0ssv46zukYy59lqB793N3JU1kkZUFHYz0ikvo8ctDsitCcNi7Vs6SyW W764m7Y5wW2dtJCdS0PINEh3TkEkLI0pILL3.MF8DS3kmqrsgt.U_6aXaA5fWvRN9PDJUjAzpqL_ 1MSHXAQVekT2xYbFsIH2NQ27qdSsNjmv8jTpEToYW8gO_99Ys_99ZX6.JZ8ggsuqsNaPRocH80sm 6yXx1 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:39:17 +0000 Received: by smtp422.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ab77a4d19e30bbf13b90f3aff584cb70; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:39:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:39:20 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-ID: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49czj443f5z480L X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.205:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.423]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.205:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:39:21 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:04:45 +0100, Ottavio Caruso wrote: >Install, uninstall, break, fix, reinstall, configure. ^^^^^ :D I don't know what this is. Never happened to me. For those who "decide" to "break", first becoming familiar with backup strategies might be a good idea. 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.19.34:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:49:16 -0000 >An example of basic shell commands, done on GNU Linux bash, but it's not really different to FreeBSD and/or another shell ;). >[rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_a.txt; echo "1234" >> file_a.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ echo "1234" > file_b.txt; echo "5678" >> file_b.txt [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_a.txt 1234 1234 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ cat file_b.txt 1234 5678 [rocketmouse@archlinux tmp]$ diff file_a.txt file_b.txt 2c2 < 1234 --- > 5678 >Why do you want to make a PC (I assume it is intended to be >used as a workstation) a mail _server_? >If this is the domain the OP likes, it's probably a good project to learn, right after having basic skills in writing shell scripts. First, before I try to understand that. What exactly is "writing shell scripts" is this similar to editing resource script files like .xinitrc or .xsession? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 2:15 AM, Brandon helsley wrote: > > > > > > I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. > > > > I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it takes a couple years!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 12:23 AM, Polytropon wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Thank you, I'm minimally familiar with the port files but I know > where and what they are, so I think it would be a great starting > point. I think so, too. The handbook sections about updating and using the ports collection is a real treasure trove. > So is this kind of contribution limited to submitting patches or > is there some kind of other persistent communication with the > "upstream", whatever that means. Depends on the project / port. I would probably check the docs that come with the port and see how they ("upstream" - those who write and maintain the initial program) would like the contributors to communicate. For FreeBSD (as the OS), patches are the easiest way of adding something new; they can be submitted with a bug report and request for inclusion. > Could you tell me what this tool "diff" is. A diff (the tool, the process, and its result) means "difference". For example, if you find a manp age where the explanation for a certain option is missing, you take the original file, make a working copy of it, change that working copy, and create a file that contains the difference (i. e., the diff, also often called the patch) between the original and the updated version. This diff can then be sent to the FreeBSD team, and they will apply it; the next issue of FreeBSD will then contain the updated manpage instead of the original one. See "man diff" and "man patch" for details. Persons who have proven to be trusted contributors will get direct access to the source code repository: they can check in their changes by themselves. Here is a simplified outline of the process: # cd /usr/src/bin/ls # cp ls.1 ls.1.orig # vim ls.1 ... you make your changes ... :wq # diff ls.1 ls.1.orig > ls.1.diff Now ls.1.diff is what will be submitted. On the FreeBSD team's side, something like this happens: # cd /usr/src/bin/ls # patch < ls.1.diff # svn commit Yes, this is actuall y _very_ simplified. :-) > I' bet I'll have to learn it myself but if you could give me > an overview and familiarize me that would be great too. You will definitely have to learn the required tools, but in my opinion, that's worth doing it, and documentation contributors are one of the most important people in a project. Never undervalue good documentation. > Right now I already have dedicated a PC to FreeBSD. I'm quite > intimidated by the editing of configuration files but have > managed to install and configure fluxbox and other simple > GUI's. That is an excellent starting point. So more or less, you already have the foundation for further work. You can refine such an environment by choosing what window manager or desktop environment fits your needs best, what programs (web browsers, editors, PDF viewers and so on) you like best, and tailor the installation for optimal use. > I'm currently working on making it a mail server but am stuck > for now. Why do you want to make a PC (I assume it is intended to be used as a workstation) a mail _server_? Not that this is impossible - don't get me wrong! -, but what is the reason? I would even say it's probably better to install a MUA (a mail user agent, an "email program", a mailer) so you can use it to conveniently (!) read and write mails. There are many GUI MUAs that you can use, or if you prefer, you can use a TUI (text-mode based) mailer in an X terminal, if that is your choice. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with installing and using Thunderbird, the de-facto standard mailer nowadays. > Other than simple configurations like firewalls or jails or > virtualbox I find FreeBSD difficult too learn. Everything worth learning might look hard at the beginning. But always remember: If you feel learning is hard, that's just a sign that your brain is _actually_ learning, i. e., it does what you want it to do. The brain likes learning. > I'll work on understanding port files and sources as my n ext step. The Porter's Handbook provides a great overview. You can see it in action with your installed ports tree. You should also understand the purpose and basic use of Subversion (svn), as version control is a significant aspect of working both with the ports collection and the system sources, if you want to do more than just using it to install stuff. The answers to questions like "What do I have to do?" mostly depend on _you_ answering the question "What do you want to do?" ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > > > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:50:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCEF330643 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49czxZ1lkMz492L for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:50:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: YC08oIMVM1kdfmBwEbenmoiSSle8aE5pBfyuQgzJ0nNSX8PHKMHjfK9fjGziMdw SHJK8cJN8OFQ55dd63dw9HVCL70KmVdcW5ElJZ0rU.5DrIXwEeK0YM74wxs08NXF9Nar6o2d8EpY ytZU4F5lqsSvrnyXEtQQ3abQ4PyPRWWAgq9atTb8kHjOoqzn_DbnywTLF8ebvhM0WNSb1Rky7qiQ PHFikGILlptUbwHk68twPfs_Z_SvuVy9X16hTGmrx1g6cs9TMRArsefPdxR9YWe76KjI_kzlgMlN LojVg541priL5JqfTGYrfH2hXB9YdDwvwUTv6MrkRqjVW1ZjnJ6e4_6K1F7cidXG4KH8ufvX3dYx SMr2kjsHvPf7u9QmRohV2VWwvL8l1Akud9yfyqZ5L1xV2X0c8_fS.PG6iCm2Aujd7IcWTSoullY3 I8ZTqwwkV1WAkrEjh4wXxXL9JczqhV2AaAACVfFh0SQtLURW7PjOVt5sbA3ullSNGLYABiQieGlL hmgWzvrXYsrWkOUacJpTgZZiPEhnohYfpvDuv4Q5mMpp6fY5dQ.s4ibGYFYyV7zXHfUcTA_o50k9 yJIn6zE.YNodKfkpN.s1AmW1pgWSwVlVrsB0VZBhytss5QusQ5GghB6joGnKn7Z93kB4ZTcT.2Du 4CryiZwjOQlSLn4Se4Gy6NZykgFr8MGXRts4qzOYZ6rfwAlg3NnMrvV0gXAMrg5LY69whYjePXok .9ZsZ93x88cjojqgpKtwiG81WOuQLYK9qwVOgVjCYHCCXhqn3X6gYTvXGyYTKRssMRY79kaLSvaB LcdCeOi.JOOGw3vNuUcY2B.lpfisNMJ4OHdkzc4PzbSTeDdbn9_lTL68Cr_xi01AUX0NAr94LrYU NoCFOHsheytPSisEGJCBCBvGkEVQpj1NJPQ.UM33cwasIR5z6n5MOTUB1VpvGrPtPv_nLG.HXArY 0dIKB_mQ4Q6Ue8C5MMUkYHz_Kso.JfWPs52ZAVIrjD9ObbF.jeWLmw85rryGSI8S65ClMkgxYLJB A.9OnohoREFmUsf0um1eS9K3069S.cItFQzTgoGlatvHhxWiVB9mYWH6OkQmDAa79geLIucuSJte AT_tDysT8pUlu0iD2ojhcq.MVtpQBhgs6otUPpOoKdcCrSK91fwHtWNn1IVyhFUcNDA6UUadD6J5 V4lJICaPFY66.X.urxpVpDJ4H9i2xB00dfl7ojH1gujX7fmYpS9Ll3p3CdUjGogPMm0LR6YNto55 3NIjrqjwl.qre8SWpi2nX7elTXyqS_QjbJbtj8Oe.31rVsL6HWLdh06jG_o5aWfDwUSi43eNi.xK 4Ghpdg0olJnOHWvgFfRWufmHjdy7P9ffbMxBUTXuiz5g6Def3UojsvbmVdO6HSW3ZzcXM_a_TJGS ujK1hQsA- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:50:08 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1c524dfba5571cfb0549d8414d902fbc; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:50:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:50:08 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604105008.3e48d617@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49czxZ1lkMz492L X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.146:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.462]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.146:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:50:11 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:14:56 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, >so that's not the problem. Please start using a MUA on your FreeBSD desktop environment. In the archive your mails look like this: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-June/289811.html They look way more confusing, if a MUA displays HMTL text as plain text and if this is the first choice to be displayed. A workaround some of us are using, to be able to get the information out of even the most worse formatted messages. >I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It's possible to do this. It's just helpful for some beginners. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:57:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE50331002 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:57:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic314-48.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic314-48.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d05V6D9Cz49yC for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: N_6BpMEVRDvd.miR6A7lED5GPdAEx7ojsA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:57:00 +0000 Received: by smtp424.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a69e152cb8d25f9c94620531c2e55617; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:54:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:55:03 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604105503.7c8b629b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d05V6D9Cz49yC X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.177.174:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.44)[-0.441]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.177.174:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:57:03 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:25:30 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >First, before I try to understand that. What exactly is "writing shell >scripts" is this similar to editing resource script files like >.xinitrc or .xsession? Those _are_ shell scripts. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 08:59:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB2D330D7A for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:59:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12olkn2094.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.23.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d07x0P7sz4B7R for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 08:59:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=c/qp7XdaY+QckmHuvyKQQ3aXl22IfMnxpUNdOXi2lfyI9njhX4SwVQu05G5MZoBOki9dZHY2JF9LJHVE2LKEi2O6vljsDZtlYwpERk6W51KIMDUdc3hdtZDA32lsSTwRfhAemJB3JxJPTtc24tartvtk4ufGi9iBOhMM3vnN4gmWlQ7dySd0UwSayRZy6hFRyOrrG7Ub3//9IcpyZ0uOLv3r/kGQI8XRfuwJ9BC4Q8bXVZilXfPFP91OM5OGtlqQUIaLCY2imEzzh9gjk72fWbry6D3PMNfmiNtuOcwursNDxi6Lc9jeXwoZ/kFsGHMbeSrIrK1m8sEDi551NNOhyg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:59:10 -0000 >Please start using a MUA on your FreeBSD desktop environment. >In the archive your mails look like this: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-June/289811.html >They look way more confusing, if a MUA displays HMTL text as plain text and if this is the first choice to be displayed. A workaround some of us are using, to be able to get the information out of even the most worse formatted messages. >I would like to skip the ubuntu step. >It's possible to do this. It's just helpful for some beginners. I looked at the link and could not tell what was wrong with the archive. I will install an MUA and use that and try and set up the mail server later with postfix. I'm assuming there are multiple layers that go along with email. Again may I ask what is writing shell scripts. Is that the same as editing .xsession or .xinitrc? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 2:51 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:14:56 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, >so that's not the problem. Please start using a MUA on your FreeBSD desktop environment. In the archive your mails look like this: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-June/289811.html They look way more confusing, if a MUA displays HMTL text as plain text and if this is the first choice to be displayed. A workaround some of us are using, to be able to get the information out of even the most worse formatted messages. >I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It's possible to do this. It's just helpful for some beginners. _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 09:00:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E763312B8 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by 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+0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/6BA22113F; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci 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ZXyVm2yodwsT3B1swxMGASV6ZG9p0bURekwyuN1zjCf2cIr6SrU8gTZjQyAlfDtU+dhvVCfw D2UGgsFXnd7KkBLadQs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:02:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wuYL2vcESMETa9Z76T5WUFWwEkDo7Embz" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:00:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --wuYL2vcESMETa9Z76T5WUFWwEkDo7Embz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="TGylpynWgygGJXauiWvGb01MbBXhcerqb" --TGylpynWgygGJXauiWvGb01MbBXhcerqb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/06/2020 09:13, Brandon helsley wrote: > I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, > so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple > editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks > like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and > probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu > step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read > it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get > straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it > takes a couple years!!! I applaud your determination, and I also think it's pretty perverse for people in *what is a FreeBSD channel* to tell enthusiastic newcomers to go away and use some other operating system. That's really not helpful. Anyhow, my advice is that the best way to get to grips with the system is to use it. What I suggest is setting yourself a series of targets or small projects which are in that sweet spot where you can already do much of what is necessary, but there is an achievable step up. Give yourself some challenges, but not such huge ones that you get dispirited and give up. A fairly simple project might be something like: Configure a firewall and NAT gateway between your home LAN and the outside world. Most of the time this would be done by some off-the-shelf router device, but out of the box FreeBSD has pretty much everything necessary. To do this you will need to: * research the firewall applications available on FreeBSD, and select one to use * specify suitable hardware and network infrastructure -- for a light-duty home LAN, you should be able to do this with fairly cheap kit, but you'll want something with more than one network interface. * understand the principles of TCP/IP networking and routing; what acronyms like TCP, UDP and ICMP mean; and what network ports are and how they are used to filter traffic * start learning how to use tools like tcpdump(8), ping(8) and mtr(8) to inspect network traffic and debug network problems That's just an idea off the top of my head; there are very many other small projects you could set yourself that will exercise different areas and teach you new things. One of the best ways you could contribute back while doing this is to record your experiences as you're going along. It can actually be pretty suprising to see where exactly the uninitiated experience difficulties, and knowing that means we can improve our documentation. Cheers, Matthew --TGylpynWgygGJXauiWvGb01MbBXhcerqb-- --wuYL2vcESMETa9Z76T5WUFWwEkDo7Embz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl7YuKVfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5OcuNRAAtvhxaQZc3Yu7dY0vm7OcX13/U3BMkDu6VHSxBVJ/PUdScNbnfZjPsp3J 3cCZBWjCz8qNkeMlR8ievgR6BNjTw8v/rm5ynbEjtXxn8wRgjFWAGwUzkoOoX7Bq lu2MATuPqEGT0zn6cuvAtOio1ZIM0Mey+Bd1XMR2eNucsaQOF41c1eHkX+TPT7oJ xMfYaXbPwhEMe5Inwlk/qd6Lymz5nIGIaKXAXtNp7uovl6Wko2ubZubDRHVhDIb1 0YkH58aNPyGt+kxoQq943WIX5WJUWG/N4IXLBmUVGnu6CCUy3r0IZ2uyKwEvPMNv VVyCFzA3bZqsbaGD4HSfg03kHJNVwMh67UVvnDUsDBr7dVOy9ZH/Zf7lw1u4y/02 rwZKzHHVZtKVMuRA7Ldpxdy5/XhiJUMLFiMPcvUhOhAwb66VAcmh/CISYF/9mcgp 23Vi5YAtSV2QMFKyRE+P+TwrBJQZROOQjsvRcPcrx6dw/kUB29Ys9gFICpljP0nt T0r7Nyx4a6RKxr52EMeD6MKe7mII3IbNlnEsXBSeG/t26xZaXK3Q5ES+tXAiVdUr 8sMWYmQ8yB/vPwgVfRi7Zeul9+FvunzQ4DFPGVON7H6Og1XJ38hE8RTOhOpybMgC dmIYhIElMww+taSpDNloL/xvZQHswnh7j2ZZukVXk7bNXf2R62k= =hoLV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wuYL2vcESMETa9Z76T5WUFWwEkDo7Embz-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 09:15:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF6A331D4D for ; 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FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:15:03 -0000 >I applaud your determination, and I also think it's pretty perverse for people in *what is a FreeBSD channel* to tell enthusiastic newcomers to go away and use some other operating system. That's really not helpful. >Anyhow, my advice is that the best way to get to grips with the system is to use it. What I suggest is setting yourself a series of targets or small projects which are in that sweet spot where you can already do much of what is necessary, but there is an achievable step up. Give yourself some challenges, but not such huge ones that you get dispirited and give up. >A fairly simple project might be something like: >Configure a firewall and NAT gateway between your home LAN and the outside world. >Most of the time this would be done by some off-the-shelf router device, but out of the box FreeBSD has pretty much everything necessary. To do this you will need to: > * research the firewall applications available on FreeBSD, and select one to use * specify suitable hardware and network infrastructure -- for a light-duty home LAN, you should be able to do this with fairly cheap kit, but you'll want something with more than one network interface. * understand the principles of TCP/IP networking and routing; what acronyms like TCP, UDP and ICMP mean; and what network ports are and how they are used to filter traffic * start learning how to use tools like tcpdump(8), ping(8) and mtr(8) to inspect network traffic and debug network problems >That's just an idea off the top of my head; there are very many other small projects you could set yourself that will exercise different areas and teach you new things. >One of the best ways you could contribute back while doing this is to record your experiences as you're going along. It can actually be pretty suprising to see where exactly the uninitiated experience difficulties, and knowing that means we can improve our documentation. Great advice from all of you!!! I really feel like I'm getting started. I'll check out your instructions and see where I stand with my understanding of the OS. I have been wanting to learn networking but my asperations are very limited when I have only one NIC. In the future ill make the formatting of my messages correct as well. At least I'll try. > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 3:00 AM, Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > On 04/06/2020 09:13, Brandon helsley wrote: > I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, > so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple > editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks > like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and > probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu > step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read > it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get > straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it > takes a couple years!!! I applaud your determination, and I also think it's pretty perverse for people in *what is a FreeBSD channel* to tell enthusiastic newcomers to go away and use some other operating system. That's really not helpful. Anyhow, my advice is that the best way to get to grips with the system is to use it. What I suggest is setting yourself a series of tar gets or small projects which are in that sweet spot where you can already do much of what is necessary, but there is an achievable step up. Give yourself some challenges, but not such huge ones that you get dispirited and give up. A fairly simple project might be something like: Configure a firewall and NAT gateway between your home LAN and the outside world. Most of the time this would be done by some off-the-shelf router device, but out of the box FreeBSD has pretty much everything necessary. To do this you will need to: * research the firewall applications available on FreeBSD, and select one to use * specify suitable hardware and network infrastructure -- for a light-duty home LAN, you should be able to do this with fairly cheap kit, but you'll want something with more than one network interface. * understand the principles of TCP/IP networking and routing; what acronyms like TCP, UDP and ICMP mean; and what network ports are and how they are used to filter traffic * start learn ing how to use tools like tcpdump(8), ping(8) and mtr(8) to inspect network traffic and debug network problems That's just an idea off the top of my head; there are very many other small projects you could set yourself that will exercise different areas and teach you new things. One of the best ways you could contribute back while doing this is to record your experiences as you're going along. It can actually be pretty suprising to see where exactly the uninitiated experience difficulties, and knowing that means we can improve our documentation. Cheers, Matthew > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 09:16:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7425331AED for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:16:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000838a2c1.db1b4e4c46a1d9b08b0a15fab14ee98a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d0X04d38z4DRR for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:16:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000838a2c1.db1b4e4c46a1d9b08b0a15fab14ee98a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591262193; x=1593854193; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=KR/KGSo9rntgP3uhgnuTIoYTumyjmokslkO9lsRQVhU=; b=P93EVAovu0Lb0et35Opgb6v+dPCQiC9puInjm15wzT5j00xVPa3c4PYy3bdLVoOKwj0SbXQ5aw9hCymWdFkX7O2I81iXp7AHfoa6SOGDwPiDJpjIqKPQ/tJkzCw0xLW5pz3q6dO5E7Ziks99jmZsxqg/TrvvGNuWzPUpbTZeHVQ= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDgzOGEyYzEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:16:25 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:16:24 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jglz4-000Hdc-UX; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:16:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:16:22 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604101622.a80ddad4340e19775abaa3a4@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200604105503.7c8b629b@archlinux> References: <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604105503.7c8b629b@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d0X04d38z4DRR X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=P93EVAov; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c1000838a2c1.db1b4e4c46a1d9b08b0a15fab14ee98a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c1000838a2c1.db1b4e4c46a1d9b08b0a15fab14ee98a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.050]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.80)[-0.799]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000838a2c1.db1b4e4c46a1d9b08b0a15fab14ee98a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000838a2c1.db1b4e4c46a1d9b08b0a15fab14ee98a@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:16:33 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:55:03 +0200 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:25:30 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > >First, before I try to understand that. What exactly is "writing shell > >scripts" is this similar to editing resource script files like > >.xinitrc or .xsession? > > Those _are_ shell scripts. However they are typically very minimal shell scripts that just launch a handful of programs and maybe set a variable or two. The various unix user shells embed quite powerful programming languages, much of the system is based around small programs written in the language supported by /bin/sh - these are also called shell scripts. All the documentation on that language is in the sh manpage (man sh) as highly condensed reference documentation. There are many tutorials on shell programming - the only thing to watch out for are Linux centred ones that assume bash with all its extensions to the sh language. It is possible to write surprisingly sophisticated programs in shell, it is not particularly wise to do so, the language is best suited to short programs - often embedding pipelines to save typing (or forgetting options) like this one I used to render troff files in book format: #!/bin/sh BOOK=$1 groff "$BOOK" | psbook -s4 | psnup -2 -m27 | lpr -C duplex:shortbind Usually scripts like this start life on the command line and get put into a script file for safe keeping. I have a *lot* of them mostly obsolete :) -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 09:27:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBFF332417 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:27:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d0mS1gHQz4Fhp for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:27:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: R0V7a8UVM1kC9IY73b.JvkBS.dw0rg9aHwMNKAha3.zUbZ7PRlx6CIZ0YLiNTur MuSik_kFZGNLyQbOiH_oAAnUDXIP2.zyGtwpa2Z9neExs1B7GqjtgAJlifnidmCmqt9s8boYMxUz HABrm2HLwHwc8jLyTtttFCE11ID38mdTA88hjSFPsUnF.2K6wNIk28bAxQoHfaEhQ9z2y.Qx4Xb2 rFOnhsLHgL2qc1kFWJluCyVobQ9J0AwuM4WZzIddTGCmcWClZxNuvkuTj2unu8u068bb6Mz8SEN0 Vo30mYwf3X1SAe_cjhoDcBaust1URFEpkUmzXbCC38wWuNV2LrkNZEimF40f5bzSYIO4lfaRb7xs rSLkgL21H_Jz7h9caRdJmI2XgG5vl1S3_Ufg0499fL1bU.TDb1JaMVGCjNvIAq7Bwr0aYki9oIWg cD03JiPcgY_mQqoOjd8JgUCBW7reghJX0.VHxb5NZ67m3lsDnoX5q7qLkr.bQRIdcQiRM2cGhTwQ whBBRJWHvqXrPesumvEvU59tVdgS05C7iKsnAbnn3YVg2F8cB5ep3ECiUFEFP5LHEMTBnNIW4q9K Mj256jJyPkrW3uni2.BfIxdfaQy4CqZGdLqad3.zzKPEJXyM_CrV7xJITAHr1FGNjWjtOE1yhTFi J9kkeZTC7EPgwdW7ZK8usXy4uoG_o8HnS8kU7Z_qh4Lg2Rc8q.v10orEb4aYGV4MCOiY2GyKbYXK bXXJDz6lvXjMBNfkHNPLXxbaffu9NaZbuftUBAjPE_BTcZVymhf2XuZ3bvsgzefwkFn5wCgC17eQ VepAC5u6Bt_ByyuiESKDiqFzNFSHshcSf7UVmhSk1bSDYxNCBWOo8SKgd74O0977E6ZqUJf4EVO8 x_jQ5ZHSD9uViCFB8V6bnr7KnFrXbqi1w6vxj6JlRdAOtCqhV5948mTIzSMp50RHfxO0yZzLJPGb KOkhP_pwKartdnHWh2LFlbVwKxg6AtLvDrC0Ww7LrYvJuIwh5Hbej8YOGreL_THva.Km3phdGLYg yJhouxSfnMJ78LW4tW3A9PPva.HJ1Lhk0jFKTRvadsssL6w0I3dEVVVr2R51FkA1S8oBQp0_hTAM Fdz7uex7e_ehk1sueR4VfwvBwVCrWnSDX58SNE1cN1eHU.z7zYYOVGvXfN0wh8.kQZi_GTsSL8f2 YyPJidtLo3nquE.lCZWryDlK08KXVuqpDtXNihj5dYShTReC_ge7O4UoF3aTzqCpe.r45lMZyx5t P7gJtnY1XdQMD7gjjna4WAJgiktRYcO9BUBqKLfC7XgA8OH1jfZOmT3DMTCkcGjsCJ5DZXq7ZBXP wEp7yoPVb0I6u1oKOby9j_Ja1MSSnnSF8HfrsIhT7dN3d13gzRyBpXXkRkOzJ1Pw2QDxIfn.bXww zFxgUt8_XMrEkYg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:27:18 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d5eb15ffbc81d03ffad32629bf0363e5; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:27:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:27:21 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-ID: <20200604112721.519dbdfb@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d0mS1gHQz4Fhp X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.53 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.187:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.04)[-1.040]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.187:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:27:21 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:02:29 +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote: >I applaud your determination, and I also think it's pretty perverse for >people in *what is a FreeBSD channel* to tell enthusiastic newcomers to >go away and use some other operating system. That's really not >helpful. It's not perverse, it's a sane alternative to gain UNIX alike basic skills on a bare metal install, instead of running Windows or MacOS and install FreeBSD as a guest in a virtual machine. However, for learning purpose running FreeBSD as a guest, as well as running Ubuntu on bare metal are alternatives one could consider, instead of running FreeBSD on bare metal. The reason for this is missing hardware support! By hook or by crook, soon or later the OP will run into hardware issues. The hardware industry does not care that much about BSD or Linux. In some cases they are at best willing to semi-support Linux, while they usually don't care about FreeBSD at all. Ignoring this is unworldly, if a completely hardware and software newbie does ask how to gain computer knowledge. In the last decade it didn't become better, hardware support for BSD and Linux became more worse than it was years back. The best OOTB hardware support is provided by user-friendly Linux distros, most likely by Ubuntu. In the end most enthusiastic newbies anyway migrate to a proprietary operating system. I tried to avoid to point this out, since it might cause fear, uncertainty and doubt, but I have to do it, if you call it perverse to consider a valid pointer to avoid issues. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 09:30:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473F93323D7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:30:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 17.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net (17.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.36.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d0rP2MXlz4Ft1 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player692.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.110.103.132]) by mo6.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E3D21767D for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:30:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-83-99-83-194.dyn.luxdsl.pt.lu [83.99.83.194]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player692.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E06D12E46394 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:30:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:30:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 13781577809844701188 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudeguddgudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecuhedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeggihhntggvnhhtucffgffhgfftvfcuoedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgfeekvdegvdfgudefgfevkeegvdekteekueegjeehtefftdetvefgvdeuveekheenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpkeefrdelledrkeefrdduleegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpqdhouhhtpdhhvghlohepphhlrgihvghrieelvddrhhgrrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepfhhrvggvsghsugdqqhhuvghsthhiohhnshesfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d0rP2MXlz4Ft1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.36.150 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.04 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[46.105.36.150:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.24)[-0.244]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.105.36.150:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[83.99.83.194:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:30:46 -0000 A virtual machine only adds complexity when using bhyve. If you use VirtualBox (on Windows or Linux), you don't have this complexity. What is interesting in using a VM is that it helps a novice learn FreeBSD one step at a time. VM managers emulate very old hardware, so the installation is guaranteed to succeed. The novice user will thus only have to learn basic notions such as device naming conventions, disk partitioning, shell interpreters, common Unix commands... Then, when all this becomes familiar, the user is no longer so novice ;) and can much more easily deal with installation issues on real hardware. I also think it makes no difference for someone knowing only Windows or MacOS to learn FreeBSD or Linux first. FreeBSD Handbook's introduction to Unix is the best one I've ever read, so discovering the Unix world through FreeBSD seems pretty sensible. :) Plus FreeBSD's community is overall very helping. :) Am 04.06.20 um 10:03 schrieb ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com: > PS: I forgot to mention the second reason speaking against a virtual > machine. A virtual machine adds an additional layer. You need to learn > how to handle the host/guest layer, this makes gaining basic knowledge > more complicated. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 09:56:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633013334B4 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:56:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d1Q84qJ2z4JZT for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:56:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: ZFsCSJkVM1kIpr5XCqedS6WDhBUcOkcv0g35FKW7vbdapp2ea3jT4YKn6KgG8Hy M6X6XU.7Z3ETkjPzrrnAsPl.wpIhPKVAnWrdb8Q.aVdot249k9ZNhx9M03iSK_hMGFyP.9ocvHJA 9Vimy4wmHa4PE7Bb9PwNl_rUUBXHTz1tkmoxa53t4elfDbcGADOM4L4ZfpX2Pm.XTP0SIvPZXIog 0i8qxAnMye9.xqJXUnxfbBDpBw6n6BqnwjSGwMQc0UXtfPoSjMn9UPz0ElvrbSzJdJi74tMQ41iY 7Ia.VXCihtWwkmixIMgntWu8MD1N_e6wsLjp9gaPhoJzfihWtFtqWpCwtdtF_EInOnvOeT_Lhvn5 .qCHmxfnrBmJHycZaESoxCBH_jEMh_GoZsmUIldRDNrijVPaB.VjDrHda47gmDsjTg2o6vdBNYlT Ag3taNast0IMBRu7kxfbi1ie3hWXZ7LxZ5Ry7QMDcnilz_al8FtidF_iWWR5tXKrxd8YleOTFLsU sWiHb0Zoa_eDOun.CDG.QkWKmPaJeLzB2hgxRZadwILjF9e.Gbdqmbiluh6rMKCSTv1Tiu7jxOOa ZER0_G1lH.zSl7GwjTWonIHSjdQbXv_EV1yrXcA_nhjh2C0Wi8R4cw3ooqDG5_5QmY3M.1MjzaHY fwvgbFq5y4vbabpFYxuuIAwnTIT_U7bnmKprbNdL0Z_sOBlccpScZOvjWO5ol4qEQWz5n6z6niSe 6n04wLUyEPVauAqcaHGsVyMCLQNUKnSb9vwlGDrwxzMYn8x4JahPkjqchomS9g53QuxJgpGK76aS 7W7FjMlsRMVKB2oGHGbtHxnYGQt_xsw3WRbmRGMphbwd4vqqDWWUThZ5gpBQTLtOhuNQTAvSDQj5 ZAD8ILprmqgiji8IEcsW5IFvL.nREBPMDioy3k.qHLklp4f7.Y.p0jePLSC1t1ljKUlFCXwAbgXp QxOl3RdGEUc7FQ.mF1M97YPdZSk0sElj0OgKJVhJA_5cFDGiCkyRmjAPeRgh5JtIwsJii5a1tH12 YfiHKKEpLCAs47e3uv21wB8P0uqeVWCKSdnJ5IUZWODIlqP9O7DzQW2dokuhSFDYqMLGPRdrrdyj 59N6QnQYO4Em1Cs.oKx3AtYqAe6czrBjW.wG72QKGhZEBq3jdWeMsvn5kK4nuA40Wa0P7pTkO7z5 WeyLvQA9fB27B30qWHTLOREs4ADf4ufc0ac2IU9v7tf3U1_hlDJ4SSx08npfRN2Q_WXYIMO03Sal rXpW_2wIir.q7wbV75hfBNgIe1eZExmMpxBw8Y5J.ErhCMhBx.2r0f1M0o2d5w4oiD399_1plYD_ scKSC6QhLJjSVBpteP57T78i0uM2Rt6U7JZFOjtg3cDIKNocjGbWdvaw89YqNJ2TayTNSWrw0ceP TJKfhJ3vGIxv7tEAxmN0idrITug-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:56:31 +0000 Received: by smtp419.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID da318c017364d86fa70b08fc112532b8; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:56:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:56:32 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604115632.7a1e6072@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d1Q84qJ2z4JZT X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.013]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.187:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.28)[-1.278]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.187:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 09:56:33 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:41:34 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >If you don't mind, I'd suggest to dedicate a workstation PC >or a laptop for FreeBSD, while having a second computer (or >a smartphone) for web access (documtnation, mailing lists, >or web forums). If only one computer should be available, then as a last resort a live media could be helpful. One of the live media I've got at hand is https://www.nomadbsd.org/ on an USB stick. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 10:19:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84F7333DB7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:19:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d1wr1NGCz4LrG for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:19:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: zl_7TFsVM1lq_6o7WQ385ZFmnHloxoF4.iL9gMe2hs5gbOPnmItsJmVLoIarZoJ pqx.CSM1OI3TT_0LDIueFK0_UXvJBV7bZqp_9KOgkJhI4Gu.nNxUoYoQh8PAkXZEBPe3PEgnmvKV hXprGpGo5TxcOH9FOHpLy99rrFbxNrWmslnnIdVolVMovp1MkgmSXwEhtCEMLoJoM4JhgZEuvvHD Niw6L4M1QUk8d0v8jSQ6y0Pva2r0eRwMB6hHFYYUEzEsalYBYyPy1NT89DX13MTOuzveSLjZhuY5 139LF3DkoPmK_g46JB1I2w5RaAZ0s4pMl7VF4Ym6IaxINSSkC2bzpgbzzW_2k7f4JjfAZ.9e7708 OsvyLfts75drSpWrRNQC8bYJwRXhvTOYrupeuaNq0_UPR_xGsAlED114BT4P0kNV3PLkr0XNNqUh MuCnfmEdchBgrh61ncDSWZIgmoMrmONUGf2kS5QtarI9u19LDkU5XNsZvym_FT_FO7RnI20yN5JH 1SWNGmUajtLfdKpM0oHNmUTYn8WfKUB.pSJW25YAWwOwUxmZmxFvM.45HbJ0Cr0EfCa_GJicRRWo lMdodXu5gfe0E0IHjnwg43ZhY.J95sem_AAqN.ejOr_z_gLdGfUALTNyBUbXUHlvNgvyko9PMXm7 dXXExNxnNSBsFQ8bfthdIwRAwKV2pRW3Hzxf9Gk38v.HijQiw.UkHdD0u6hWnbxWGX3AlF4yblGS YtUnkwr0de7XY.V0uL0zOD2Rsz6q.KnhUH6ZG8nH1H61MbL.js7H_mYhZSRhmZLPcne6KY.tCVis kAbE3e9lB9T7h2AcaLUQ4DI8e.3g5Iyn6wFmyWK42vVWXYVx1zEAV60fFw9YW7lgGjdHgFiQ.L93 .Udn3lFGTxb4NTd4VlirvjcAo_FDm0zJaI5CHRwgX406VxgLQAtC4aomCGDzLxN51qlvw1rLADe4 vtA7lLxcFH9fNNds4YtOeE6q_gxn7mihNK4mcUVP4L0PFUVLqItR6HMSw5Bcw01sBHE3AVQnQGNU jpzkDGFGjk3bT.OIRkZD6JjyNAbxM_Dm.KcMz2MHT9qdfkC1SP82N8GwMaES.AulGDDR3YLYaNDv H9_fGvMUt8kopy0Gu0E27vQSo7qK6Wzi8zq2wZuMu8JizwlqHDVEn_tw.FkCCeyaCKMn4s7PQnd3 SONV1zoR8wCUdoY6EW6CdcpmnyNTlnKxk3dKt9lK6t5nja4CMb13Uadbb1nMSfJu7w8gSU8t.I2u iraXdVt0wmbJeJqXte3llQt6MtanPC4j0XV7FajLeIp.fc9BFBQlfk2EdaeXE3rFXosjO2vBmU1D iQQHr6TZDEnGS0Z4Sz9vsvwQFDDL3ivO79rHm0aKMg7SaSCCxCDdTwsMJTP3NyLdMrJDULNk7Axw 1lHfA26E7O20EIikIzQBq Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:19:38 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5318d3348b85eeb5dea5a1f102bb89d0; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:19:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f45.google.com with SMTP id nm22so954340pjb.4 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 03:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532NXN0slb7Kel4tZlvQNv4tioYD9gB5oPVku6d1wJQkMZuZ7fTa +B+jIZx/Le9d9vh0qBWii7s+A/TGpNHjnxJCUYY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJya5NjsI1eYv3cFM2DG27GF+tYk9jjMGp1H5UEWm54vP5TQ1Ph+fL5XP31d+0teon3l+hWI1TLOMkIaSYjVnmI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4ecb:: with SMTP id v11mr5175346pjl.75.1591265972284; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 03:19:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:19:16 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d1wr1NGCz4LrG X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.06 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.034]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.184.200:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.33)[-0.328]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.184.200:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:19:40 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 09:39, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:04:45 +0100, Ottavio Caruso wrote: > >Install, uninstall, break, fix, reinstall, configure. > ^^^^^ :D > I don't know what this is. Never happened to me. > > For those who "decide" to "break", first becoming familiar with backup > strategies might be a good idea. You missed the "do it in a VM first". If you've never broken a system maybe it's because you haven't tried hard. By being able to use virtualisation, one also picks other skills. I've learnt a lot by using qemu, setting up virtual serial consoles, virtual interfaces, ssh forwarding, etc. Things you can not usually do on bare metal. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 10:40:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB6E33446F for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:40:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic310-57.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic310-57.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d2NR5gk8z4P4y for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:40:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 3gEsPrYVM1n23fncBHIXlLYV.jlomJYPJpogWtqFH3Jzk64H9ytTU1Motrc9Aar 563fUOZiOZYuCWAg3bOWVAk1DVuxbG3.SD857FLGXoyJbODnM4qaeLNgTx_mivl3M918Qh_XuFB8 5U1P1Lkj6rhgBVk4tu6cv73DPl_d6_GMOt.fCKThZcFxrSrL60x8p8IUfMJ9QXIst4H7PbZ0C16U SXhuMmv6sYF6VMSb70zrqI1dm_ImYLJ76_9PHfDHT2hwCGcHmBkZOB.p80ZjUZa2LZAizkYasj.I Hw7QdH2SV8BMqwK4x9GZlCaYed40y8t0oE2OGZ7egJKEQTCJXnBqD5UijTqf7MlGmxpBaymvuiE0 ANLrYlXZHUa_UdX1Jk.Pa9JhOd1ccOsEO8xAPDmguBeddE_xef.qTSCp2ix3ekgHkIYdnRbv5at_ MIHEY_LYA1gatl0f8xmkdtLvPeOa5v4Nd1CIfH0iNEbrSwUomTqflE0XCYNhey166jUC2eZ7qPWz 371XQgLPLMjiED4Wc5cd1nCRWatrJkxMfnwE8eZtKNERUbsEZX9Ibp0V3Ep4WCcjZcTLiCqTI6mi MTr2qSK620CyIiAOJMWEfaRXvN0IW1XdGm24fwsN1jfykOqlLd8MLNCV2kp6bvbZMxi1a2MYms15 WMWqIkF43yAQzv5Cm0AeBsvW2TNlPLjAbYOtSkMiUMrVvP.sIXsxwrYvdVZbQEeNE6l9zdLn.6M2 8FnclvF8LR5ETMm.ZopNx8UmhcHIUbUb7LmC3nyRq6_A0OzHLy4moa1SrW4F7N7lXvt64Xj4fH3Z 3TPIlRg1rC_pTKrskTVaNX50xKMFs2foTG5nNEMlHOt.V73LMJjPTEBEAPDUuYxQSdwLACyhNe.Y GjXIhj9nyBq6lW2FczTSb1nW1vbpjqMTdAr.pzivz7V1UU5WgzKnhgmBO70nOMidvVilnjuMa8Re u.QsywzDSNeOqYqgSQc7TpqeOdwWiNHfJ9LfM1tFYsrrASVXqgfyVO.DdR80M24m.XIuRw34rB.7 zxds6WSUxhfy5L.igo7KYH8b1RtfN0KHtXv70UFSAiSjO5GzjNFZRK8i.XBI.9YF4.yBYmcNRpmQ cNNYLYHPeVX0fjSEsz_R2utlQOWWdE16rxtOIg4VHcNkWJqUcLSBP73UCVI5HaYaMmPhnWMrm_yB ITTU10yuckKeWgVsi6PDYALrSZoaKoECaEQTLT.Bi2bYJLpbSRAt0ZobCIFbVh6i5LCdvZweArHB vzpcNy_sv7hYluF143Q_d7bh1UZxXRxnFuYYNbHjhsA2zEOnjxu5oN66xOUrqZDDCYrvITdh0AC4 6xesKDg4qKnyKyvkL5j45wmDffoBivWHMSQ6yT5i.x1K5iV9pKL2JaR.OaMEa7Jb289kRMQiKGc3 Yyf1A5ExPb9k- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 10:40:06 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a7f9a59f9841bf31aae3e1d6c89fc5d9; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:40:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 12:40:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d2NR5gk8z4P4y X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.15 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.976]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.022]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.177.30:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.148]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.177.30:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 10:40:08 -0000 On Thu, 2020-06-04 at 11:19 +0100, Ottavio Caruso wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 09:39, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:04:45 +0100, Ottavio Caruso wrote: > > > Install, uninstall, break, fix, reinstall, configure. > > ^^^^^ :D > > I don't know what this is. Never happened to me. > > > > For those who "decide" to "break", first becoming familiar with backup > > strategies might be a good idea. > > You missed the "do it in a VM first". If you've never broken a system > maybe it's because you haven't tried hard. > > By being able to use virtualisation, one also picks other skills. I've > learnt a lot by using qemu, setting up virtual serial consoles, > virtual interfaces, ssh forwarding, etc. Things you can not usually do > on bare metal. I'm kidding ;). It's not that hard to break an install. For example # rm -Ir /tmp/foo/* could easily become # rm -Ir / tmp/foo/* or # rm -Ir /tmp/foo/ * due to a human typo or failure of an aged keyboard. A prompt before removing recursively not necessarily does prevent against continuing with the next mistake. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 11:42:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEBC3365A7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:42:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d3mJ34bmz4W4x for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:42:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id a25so6864970ljp.3 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 04:42:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=yKGbjAuJqz99JSI71SOQX2oicZGD7+145dj6cEVFP1k=; b=uOTxsOEUnm/9N6ipK+Bcsj2VTigy9OHGvmwvPPUx5r/qbsp13Fbq4SziHOLEBPUSON L6rh/eJ18fuWTEb4j9OgQFhD5wJH8AP76Uocupo35wjm0gTlPu9YAtfLV69X87vOxA4j 0nNmloUecHqZ2luoJtPGF6ZjNcnXzi2K9lSAPFyVniygE15xBT/9UyQBuS6+fgzlU6MD 5nAOYNFVaAhA0Xyr4zjEqVroPYk2hVUolLSnIzsIqjN7hcgNRu782QhGiUeFwgMbm8Ss +r1fY18Srn42NP80t7ngBzqOlyAnySz6R6s1cBfdhZP4aisQB5dIwJ7zbtLUBf6t3y4C paEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yKGbjAuJqz99JSI71SOQX2oicZGD7+145dj6cEVFP1k=; b=JBhdmaWGuf5sXkYLFh3OEs/6sf7rXWhtPWQQ2RJT5hEMCdmXirEHnWB+w0SV5uWQoB IivqV6vfL+6BcdTDCavBJf6r5XBl0iNzCm4g54gCHIz7j1mGrA5XYlnYabicU4xXCFda RxEpIX9dROPGNukVY+qd7kxlJy1TlNOjgpk9k41uOaGayeAsjeDQlv0WWXMaPRVgwDjs UN9Zu0gdIh9c7wPP5R0Cm12t9OJUmDZvbpEVKk0s5IUxhcZAEt1oq/zgnALvCxC4vAqT RUBZ/4wyochSLwppTrlUJqQHSocRaaAfb+tQ0ysAiP5huNn5vNRw2d+AYxsTOgz8IWYk 1I7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5315nXLS2lmOtuT5j4IYpN82PeqZKAaGZr6JEbQfX7V1EDn2nVrR irq1DySjvT3m60v3XYPOqNiMGEM9q/GQyV4SXG0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTWNM7gvySJ0nT4ysUJf+Gv2XsIbUVfWIN9bwt/X+TMovgVFX+aj2iKJd9vHqZv/BMMUMLCwp85aJOKPIKoB0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8255:: with SMTP id j21mr1936957ljh.85.1591270942312; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 04:42:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d3mJ34bmz4W4x X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=uOTxsOEU; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.31 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.35)[-0.351]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.960]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::229:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 11:42:25 -0000 ROFL VVH! On my i3 Dell mule, I can break a build world/kernel with the application of -j4. May be errata at the chip level, may be at the BIOS level, may be a collision in dependencies I can also really mess up my system with pilot error with injudicious use of 'rm', as Ralf has pointed out. I really appreciate your stick-to-it-in-spite-of-everybody attitude, Brandon. You're going to be a committer some day! Not soon, but then you're probably a lot younger than my ~64*365.25*3600 seconds on this planet! Welcome aboard! We ARE here to help! :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 11:44:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF7D3368B0 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d3pG0y8Tz4WdW for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:44:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3E8A2913; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:44:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo13-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ur1JxqJvn8q2; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:44:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21FA6A2895; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:44:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 054BhwGC047589 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:43:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Polytropon Cc: Brandon helsley , freebsd-questions References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <50fa37b5-42c4-e5ac-0b19-abfa996fcbad@hedeland.org> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:43:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d3pG0y8Tz4WdW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.68.202.10:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.918]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.944]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[81.228.157.209:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.772]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 11:44:06 -0000 On 2020-06-04 08:23, Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > >> Could you tell me what this tool "diff" is. > > A diff (the tool, the process, and its result) means "difference". > For example, if you find a manpage where the explanation for a > certain option is missing, you take the original file, make a > working copy of it, change that working copy, and create a file > that contains the difference (i. e., the diff, also often > called the patch) between the original and the updated version. > This diff can then be sent to the FreeBSD team, and they will > apply it; the next issue of FreeBSD will then contain the > updated manpage instead of the original one. > > See "man diff" and "man patch" for details. > > Persons who have proven to be trusted contributors will get > direct access to the source code repository: they can check in > their changes by themselves. > > Here is a simplified outline of the process: > > # cd /usr/src/bin/ls > # cp ls.1 ls.1.orig > # vim ls.1 > ... you make your changes ... > :wq > # diff ls.1 ls.1.orig > ls.1.diff Sorry to pick on this one error in the huge amounts of useful info that you provide, but this is *really* not the way to use diff, at least not if you expect anyone else to use the result. First, it produces a reverse diff, i.e. the changes needed to go from the new version of the file to the old one, which is at least annoying/confusing - and second, in combination with using the (unfortunately default) "normal" format, it becomes pretty much useless. These days, the proper way is # diff -u ls.1.orig ls.1 > ls.1.diff > Now ls.1.diff is what will be submitted. On the FreeBSD team's > side, something like this happens: > > # cd /usr/src/bin/ls > # patch < ls.1.diff At best, with the diff produced by your command, this will make patch, after asking and being told which file to patch, say Reversed (or previously applied) patch detected! Assume -R? [y] and actually work if you say 'y'. But there are several caveats for both the reverse-detection and the application of the patch to work when the "normal" format is used (see "man patch":-). Whereas with the -u ("unified") format it works pretty much 100% (but you still shouldn't produce a reverse diff, of course), and additionally the name of the file to patch would be auto-detected. --Per From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 11:54:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C34336F41 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:54:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100083ced3e.f6ac1581fb4b5b9726ec89c2b2dec375@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d41s0nlBz4XXh for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:54:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100083ced3e.f6ac1581fb4b5b9726ec89c2b2dec375@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591271649; x=1593863649; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=6ijD46lLSJAkIpRTAJ19TUlQ+VR3rU7lXSvPVK80wys=; b=j4xqsNOkaMDHRMl0QYtGhgkXJc++UdjcfAjH3BJP1HDz8vWuUj3ABR8VuVUNxjOXpxac9YCMn8kEaefSUQ4gotW8jzyR8mdSmM7HEKUqMhk8QQ+zd6DKb+6qZe4Z+8sCN+yZiMlqQjb4n7nS/4J9PBuG2vic0yM9utDHHoRN3xs= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDgzY2VkM2UuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.h.in.socketlabs.com (r3.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:54:05 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:54:04 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jgoRf-000I71-7G; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 12:54:03 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:54:03 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-Id: <20200604125403.cccd113957aea693a2364cb9@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d41s0nlBz4XXh X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=j4xqsNOk; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100083ced3e.f6ac1581fb4b5b9726ec89c2b2dec375@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100083ced3e.f6ac1581fb4b5b9726ec89c2b2dec375@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.017]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.926]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100083ced3e.f6ac1581fb4b5b9726ec89c2b2dec375@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100083ced3e.f6ac1581fb4b5b9726ec89c2b2dec375@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 11:54:10 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 Donald Wilde wrote: > ~64*365.25*3600 seconds Did you miss a factor of 24 in there or are you really two years and eight months old ? -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 12:41:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82CE2F12E9 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d54d5sXmz4fr8 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:41:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 202so3503897lfe.5 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:41:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=cTNPpdymPle2JoXQoo3nRaUwdnvaVr9QCCO8v2bcIYI=; b=Oslp8o7VOI3VhgSdzY4lt0w1z/TvYaDC3R0jhzEEvmYU1gxbWQq40UZP0r5k1sDoCe uar8V+5ZE3nw1rRXWOD9BH5hHLLwrV6VL3RHkTv+o9GIpMAIRZVkkavD2k5g3p+2S6if ksXp26exqgx6I5bUKSGh6ZhhN0FzbfqOvmwpO29NK7rKaJ/MTjNMg9sn/wIEllOR8yn7 u3pw09Qpioe2DGh9w53g5wVzJ4GJyypdrEp3xWLyBoM+pIDxDJJttDiuWqUeSIUgPjqX kS5/UjgTqtOrXBA663yLVQnzPWorHZuMbQ/N4gN4TlNc32qAlPMKXzUyKAE+ELrAI9/S PJiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cTNPpdymPle2JoXQoo3nRaUwdnvaVr9QCCO8v2bcIYI=; b=ebE6vnfBtpIrqZNA09ePFpbSqAms+Gv5TCUzxd2ADiRBrATqkVg64CIDz6KuTFMZ9R 7ctR4TkFVXf8QUofQR5VR3WGnMv3/dPE5wNHLhkETAPzxSetqqx6wdIu+gRsD/TWlsSl BtP5U6+lldlfpN/JBqg1vVYWIDgSurcBShxYqRfgh7J17Z5cwuvRoQmy6D4Ri4wPhMKq PG2bQXqjpLkGJbA2UnNTBKQZTbq/ksOdvOb0wwQepUpwfToniINDrGXT35CXaNQNQhSS qR0bwozrgZFTHWeZKYB18wfhdNX9FiJ8ySj6GggUxjxgFwn+f0mY3XenwEYEYwzCbAIX cZxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uvEGCEPZPsw63vr/bRyiVXP/DIg9zPbz35l7K36+tnC20Oaat xsWyTCt5cJKqN0YrWAIFtCwcp+0qkorpwHlKUqT32r6x X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwz+1SiH3Xbf2ex5q3cWYBhCZY2N1PDCAjMKttUSGYlGT5BjAg08+5EvCX9mGXj8sL27rTT4SuswkNf2AICFJ8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:2023:: with SMTP id s3mr2534062lfs.78.1591274495499; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:41:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200604115632.7a1e6072@archlinux> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604115632.7a1e6072@archlinux> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:41:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d54d5sXmz4fr8 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Oslp8o7V; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.18 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.517]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.739]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.927]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::12a:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 12:41:38 -0000 On 6/4/20, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:41:34 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >>If you don't mind, I'd suggest to dedicate a workstation PC >>or a laptop for FreeBSD, while having a second computer (or >>a smartphone) for web access (documtnation, mailing lists, >>or web forums). [snip] I suspect that it may be responding to these lists on your Android phone that may cause the scrambling issues we see, Brandon, or maybe somebody else's MUA (hint?) is not interpreting HTML properly that their MUA defaults to sending. One of the big problems I have in computing in general, and FOSS in particular (I'm looking at YOU, Oracle 'java'!) is that almost any major project depends on skazillions (that's a technical term, Brandon) of layers of software, any one of which may break if some committer somewhere makes a change. or some management wonk decrees that a Major Version Upgrade shall proceed. In just one huge project I was working on, we had a dependency for all system levels of our entire Internet of Things deployment on the JVM ('Java Virtual Machine'). I was prime maintainer of that component, but until Wall Street put pressure on the CEO back in 2016 I had about a dozen people I could talk to who could dive into those layers and find out what broke and assist the layer's maintainers in resolving the problem. When the last of those left or was laid off and a manager told me (re: delays) that THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, I gave my notice. The whole project was cancelled six months later. FreeBSD is much more sane than most projects, IMHO. Almost everything is written in C or C++ or scripts in CSH or SH (hopefully not BASH!). One of the rising issues in computing is the combinatorial explosion in dependencies everywhere. One thing that will help you as a patience-builder is to distinguish between FreeBSD itself and all the myriad ports. As has been said, much of the world expects Windows and most software developers are paid only to ensure that Windows versions of stuff works. What is available for the rest of us is still an overflowing cornucopia and with patience we can all do amazing things! You are on a very good track, Brandon, because the world will need a huge number of additional networking specialists who have paid attention to security. I can tell you that if you stick to this and become really proficient, you'll command salaries in the mid-six-figures (which I have yet to attain, myself, by choice). It's up to you whether you are willing to accept that level of stress in a J O B rather than when creating your own version of Amazing Grace in your own company! :D If I were you, I'd start by studying 'man sh' and 'man tcsh' (the two major shells supplied by default on FBSD). You will note the incredible number of possible options in each, but don't let this dissuade you. Gnu BASH is much, much more complex! When you can comprehend the commands used in the basic scripts and startup dot-files (like .xinitrc and .profile), you can make simple changes and learn to extend things yourself. I personally use UEMACS from the command line as my editor because I came up from a different world (ASM and AI) than those who speak vi from the cradle. One final caution: only choose a port over a pkg when you really want to tweak the configuration or debug it at the source level. You'll have enough to do without adding extra challenges to your task stack! As you can see from some of my posts on -questions and -stable, even an experienced UNIX user and 30-year developer can get in over his head. Patience maintains sanity! :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 12:42:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CE82F175B for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:42:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d56769Jyz4gDX for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:42:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id n23so7085319ljh.7 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:42:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=QR9PRmn+ri8kYERdYr3+NqKk9uZ77wfbkKTDa47VSDE=; b=iHPLEW63kDhT8v5FHigx3aRrgbq1Gq/cUfdw7nPNzSw5gJL4OjHCqRXwX64R5Oihc8 vb3Qe1UOWXz5fUY+SZT6OE9CXNawkXFQOPbemJTGUfCOr/eKnrNfpC8GiiHM7c6dW8va 2PJUO7SZiym6SpJqvU+3gtwQfzd+mQvmrnxs0xkaa1+hGdoHtbL+c5W3Me6xaKyo+fsD PX8E/M143BPCJyBHV1pErJF927gbT3xOqq9uBQsv01mA3hVwglbr3mFhY7pORaraa0ih G2E/d5NBB/yuaIfl6rG68tid2ENkrRS14+45FxB5Diel7ylwLE26enLNl+rKVPNuH4Sr 2NyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QR9PRmn+ri8kYERdYr3+NqKk9uZ77wfbkKTDa47VSDE=; b=EO6KEftElNXOeXrEmH5QzaUVaradeyHWaacRoFV+8ePKVI+p6z9mk6PhkNEvziz+iv QHgbkfdumW9Ia2fwzHy5LwBw/4535f+7liwv/FeNnWr+lzaAEXtjsHY0oCV8m0vGtb3A W6MskC8h3/wwQQ7pUGMdh9T1sxniuiirhk+wiPJ2Qp0p7C2rWgmySWXIil4W8VzNrDh1 6X3AJF4HxaSWjFrCWiro+eIWQjq48oBDe5sdvKbOkvs4Lec7XYeZuSddmUXhKVjU5pTx 2wKlasUT+mdbFVMgcC3bEN89VoAEOBK1YxhnyRhouoRHM/AlIuKa/df6A1G3Ln79WuKZ wuIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JrVolrW3Jwb6p316tXV98Cgo3Ji/xN3TJnij3WMe5GVnV+J0C 8ZnU1WKwZ65ezejRZiy3GX2JaBq3PohAa7oWU38= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5w2obPKkKKkPYMeFZC1CbGitWncgJq2UvwBxwkbRkoiggnhTDytcSG4yjKHeV5uP/Eg0CfhGKAw4CtYRg4ko= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3c06:: with SMTP id j6mr2127100lja.357.1591274574192; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:42:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200604125403.cccd113957aea693a2364cb9@sohara.org> References: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> <20200604125403.cccd113957aea693a2364cb9@sohara.org> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 05:42:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d56769Jyz4gDX X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=iHPLEW63; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.581]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.968]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22c:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 12:42:56 -0000 HA HA Bugs, bugs, bugs! YUP! On 6/4/20, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 > Donald Wilde wrote: > >> ~64*365.25*3600 seconds > > Did you miss a factor of 24 in there or are you really two years > and eight months old ? > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 13:42:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3542F3CD9 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:42:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04olkn0822.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe4d::822]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d6QV0DtFz3ZpH for ; 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ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.971]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; HTTP_TO_IP(1.00)[]; R_SUSPICIOUS_URL(5.00)[1.109.0.25]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:42:11 -0000 I see there is a section on upgrading ports in the porters handbook that slightly touches on diff and patching ports. I'm still confused though about how to find the bugs to make the patches and get the experience. Is that part of the process of debugging anywhere in the documentation? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 6:43 AM, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > HA HA Bugs, bugs, bugs! YUP! On 6/4/20, Steve O'Hara-Smith sohara.org> wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 > Donald Wilde gmail.com> wrote: > >> ~64*365.25*3600 seconds > > Did you miss a factor of 24 in there or are you really two years > and eight months old ? > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith sohara.org> > -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 13:49:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA0F2F42B6 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:49:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM10-BN7-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn7nam10olkn2083.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.40.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d6Zs6BMBz3bjM for ; 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NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.970]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.40.83:from]; HTTP_TO_IP(1.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.40.83:from]; R_SUSPICIOUS_URL(5.00)[1.109.0.25]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:49:27 -0000 I see there is a section on upgrading ports in the porters handbook that slightly touches on diff and patching ports. I'm still confused though about how to find the bugs to make the patches and get the experience. Is that part of the process of debugging anywhere in the documentation? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 6:43 AM, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > HA HA Bugs, bugs, bugs! YUP! On 6/4/20, Steve O'Hara-Smith sohara.org> wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 > Donald Wilde gmail.com> wrote: > >> ~64*365.25*3600 seconds > > Did you miss a factor of 24 in there or are you really two years > and eight months old ? > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith sohara.org> > -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 14:04:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020F92F4293 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 14:04:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d6wT6V7nz3df3 for ; 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Thu, 04 Jun 2020 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> <20200604125403.cccd113957aea693a2364cb9@sohara.org> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 07:04:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d6wT6V7nz3df3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=snBmR0WH; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.68)[-0.682]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.952]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.978]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22a:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 14:04:43 -0000 > > > On 6/4/20, Brandon helsley wrote: > > > > I see there is a section on upgrading ports in the porters handbook that > slightly touches on diff and patching ports. I'm still confused though about > how to find the bugs to make the patches and get the experience. Is that > part of the process of debugging anywhere in the documentation? > A gazillion books have been written about debugging, Brandon. It's what we call a 'cottage industry', supported by guys like you and I. The simplest answer is that if something doesn't work the way you expect it to, you investigate until you get to the bottom of 'why' and either change your expectations or embark on solving the problem. Or, until your stack of Other Important Things To Do(tm) takes precedence... A side note, please ensure that you don't change subject lines; this one has 'minimal' misspelled. Another note, it's important for those of us following the thread as it goes that you take care to put your most recent comments _after_ the part that you are responding to. Microsoft made Windows MUAs like Outlook default to adding new comment to the top, but that makes it virtually impossible to see who said what, when. That isn't critical for an informational chatting thread like this, but it is _crucial_ when doing real work like discussing ports and bugs. The practice is called 'top posting' and it drives our people in the FreeBSD community nuts for the above reasons. [snip] >> On Jun 4, 2020 at 6:43 AM, Donald Wilde wrote: >> >> >> HA HA Bugs, bugs, bugs! YUP! On 6/4/20, Steve O'Hara-Smith sohara.org> >> wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 04:42:21 -0700 > Donald Wilde gmail.com> >> wrote: > >> ~64*365.25*3600 seconds > > Did you miss a factor of >> 24 in there or are you really two years > and eight months old ? > > I was getting too cute, one of my more laughable but common human failings! I was just debugging (there's that word again) a Ruby routine that deleted files older than a certain age and I had modified it so that I could delete files based on ages in seconds, hours, or days for testing so that my testing could be done with alacrity and not half a lifetime. Oops... -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 15:16:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949812F6BE7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:16:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) Received: from radel.com (fly.radel.com [70.184.242.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.radel.com", Issuer "GoGetSSL RSA DV CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49d8W26sbCz443j for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:16:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.19.2 (ClamAV engine v0.99.2) X-ExtFilter: Niversoft's DomainKeys Helper DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=r6kOAgGDlRHKfxvdSQP1wqEQ69eZTIk/gj8DdhJCG9ursWuSqFJ5T3/oZaM1Rtn4FX Jn49JSp3gK6kOrZwWp5Pu68lrUYYS/gBp8RC/y8ziDJZisO9x2DeWVDDOgSaC8Aa8e8w gPhF/2U0xo2hg6dY7Zmbb6Bqsdkw+xt9IJoL0sTFX1653yp+0598y8z4ivgL/tYYR9ck jsZ/pWBCDLdxjdI1kaoRbTJVSem8EWLuW6W711XrSqe61ctYyvxpxHadLG2PkBn+s9sq UITholLB209J5r7d4nrp4OWvAzUN4UCA4CtCTp4EBEf9GPn2bTIJpUlCxBsXZHm/vpeo xvpQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; t=1591283768; x=1591888568; q=dns/txt; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; bh=EyLSwKaahTQ Df1Uh/N93HT5qWD0tuRxZfIRoWWwZ5TA=; b=VBpdzcuEUVtohf9scrHvU6PIibq 9Tf57jqc43IJwlg7L20OgQ1rLtEznqK0yDq9RdjkBI+VgPzPEeSUy9vCl68pfA6J I/gN44bRXzFmzCexxhxiO+WjN9snmhDmYLb2JPgkamMdhWH5oMpss01h9Q81DBM+ TorgQr50Lcy+qxi4jQEYHFovluSBaUmWNa5kblklrPm4vS1UzIvVoqTyYRzztDU5 xhPRTKOS1j2sQ+Qi85KPWI2tXjyZd6KrKyPbQc1LN/W0Ez0RJYWXvHcPSmjvw7lp IOE2+zLoq8djVtmvON9vLMrjq6Dl+DcaPQSX8Iuoori72IAHdpjggUoQWYw== Received: from [2001:470:880a:4389:1538:1e49:9370:75e] (account jon@radel.com HELO haralson.local) by radel.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14 _community_) with ESMTPSA id 2164619 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 15:16:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604125403.cccd113957aea693a2364cb9@sohara.org> <20200604103920.20ee2d27@archlinux> <20200604125403.cccd113957aea693a2364cb9@sohara.org> From: Jon Radel Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 11:16:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms090605060807040009090105" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49d8W26sbCz443j X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=radel.com header.s=20170108.radel header.b=VBpdzcuE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=radel.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jon@radel.com designates 70.184.242.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jon@radel.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.88 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[radel.com:s=20170108.radel]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:70.184.242.160/28]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[radel.com]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.935]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.18)[0.176]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[radel.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[radel.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22773, ipnet:70.184.240.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 15:16:16 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090605060807040009090105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 6/4/20 09:27, Brandon helsley wrote: > =20 > I see there is a section on upgrading ports in the porters handbook tha= t slightly touches on diff and patching ports. I'm still confused though = about how to find the bugs to make the patches and get the experience. Is= that part of the process of debugging anywhere in the documentation? > =20 Bugs are: =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 What you trip over when you're trying to get something don= e and the software does something somewhere between "Huh, what's it doing?" and "What a piece of @$!@$!@$!" =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 What you find when you've developed a suite of tests for t= he software that you run every time you even think about making a change to the code, or =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 What you find when you do a rigorous line-by-line analysis= of the code looking for various "bad" coding practices frequently associated with bugs. Given where you are on your journey, I'd suspect that you'd be best served by dealing with worrying about bugs only if you trip across them during use, or if you're dealing with software where somebody else wrote the tests and all you have to do is run them and see what happens. So....and here's the reason I'm even bothering to take the time to write this....I'd strongly urge you to not worry about finding bugs.=C2=A0 They= 'll find you soon enough.=C2=A0 And if you do take something over as the maintainer other people may even start sending you grumbly notes about yet more bugs. What to do, then? Pay attention to the people who keep asking you, in many different ways, what it is you want to DO with FreeBSD?=C2=A0 Figure out what ports would= assist you in achieving this.=C2=A0 Look at those ports...are they all up-to-date?=C2=A0 If you find a port that seems useful to you but there a= re upstream updates, particularly if associated with severe security alerts, that haven't shown up yet in the port tree, do the research to figure out if there is a maintainer who can explain what's happening, a maintainer who would be thrilled if you offered to work on it, or no maintainer at all.=C2=A0 Proceed accordingly. There's plenty of work to do just keeping everything updated.... And a meta-comment:=C2=A0 I'm not you and you're not me, and I'm quite su= re that your mileage will vary, but I personally find it much easier to find the time, energy, and focus to truly learn a tool if I (or somebody paying me to do useful things) use that tool to actually do something useful. --=20 --Jon Radel jon@radel.com --------------ms090605060807040009090105 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC C9owggXmMIIDzqADAgECAhBqm+E4O/8ra58B1dm4p1JWMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBDAUAMIGFMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxm b3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDErMCkGA1UEAxMiQ09NT0RPIFJTQSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw0xMzAxMTAwMDAwMDBaFw0yODAxMDkyMzU5NTla 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[212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dFB25tLHz4XZt for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:46:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M4skB-1jiISr3CWl-001vhh; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:46:42 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:46:42 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions , Ottavio Caruso Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-Id: <20200604204642.8ffe9e52.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 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ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.27)[0.274]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.58)[-0.584]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.29)[0.294]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[freebsd.org,yahoo.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:46:51 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:13:22 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books > like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. > > I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, > so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple > editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks > like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main > and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu > step. Great! By the way, I second Ralf's suggestion of using a real installation on bare metal for first steps, with a secondary system at hand where you can access online resources in case of questions. Virtualization surely has its place, but I would even go further and recommend it: for networking education! You can create virtual networks on your FreeBSD machine with VMs, install and test services on them, learn about routing, about firewalls, about traffic diagnostics and so on. But always keep in mind that times have changed, and that people and their capabilities have changed. Technically, there is nothing wrong with VMs, but as Ralf pointed out correctly, they also have downsides that might interfere with the goal of learning... > It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just > read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. Yes, those are valuable resources. > I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, > even if it takes a couple years!!! Depending on _what_ you want to contribute to, it doesn't have to require years. As I briefly described on how you could, for example, contribute to OS manpages, you already have all the "computer functionality" you need; you just have to make some decisions and learning in the desired field. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 19:06:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CC832D368 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 19:06:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dFcs0Vhfz4ZyW for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MCsLo-1jpkss15Ci-008sxW; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 21:06:34 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:06:33 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Per Hedeland Cc: Brandon helsley , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604210633.6965a714.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <50fa37b5-42c4-e5ac-0b19-abfa996fcbad@hedeland.org> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604082304.fe7d3d80.freebsd@edvax.de> <50fa37b5-42c4-e5ac-0b19-abfa996fcbad@hedeland.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:PT9fCuQuZN7LxzwwOFJCqR4dN81AksqiJxUQNaO/oAPKNgwhCjU OhBEp98Y5PZlccQg2NzilG03RTjVZZT+7oyDVkmvRbMpvlqVGULOfAyuSnNLEG3LeAedcdf jGpfyYyvKbuVYxwy+Ip/pG1nMZuw2XID+94SVP8dC0CqjD82wPsAybJHaUxi4oW2evG+7u2 e6R01NgZyLtUJ7QeI6dAg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:81234BOP0mQ=:QYQX9t8nSw8vUaKw5EZRJj OQjVkSx36za1NiHukv7Sg7cDi0lFKvGrYw0xQEx2Ad1rB+It9eIHXNLgdnZdKcfJKmgELYAE2 +knyFxUMY1o8L/6ZzSuSptsE1so4myVsTK2/lMwQFqAlFpm8cVidjLx5gc0hScFa8bUdt06Eu tEfeZ1lTbQyoYHn8mOTFRwOh8j+iLLMP6l/x7v4EqDkMZ+A8a9pD5I8r0Z++ITqdrOb+1ROqK 4ELTXyvUWGv97tCsUvVC7Zu1ZhiQ+OJ0REvSFN0nM9SAu4EKJhiVRR0hXyAUxOm/eTElxOK6W tSRjsGuvLoHnvt0BUqBN/7aKrjuem1iX9eA9ljOZF4PSNKw6VLjNYHrWvZdQH+W3DEtrdR8P0 GTjz2X7dg7m6uDMn3tN4q2pP1N8J0JXbQLTY4u2DgGqxFQrYxPABkjrEq56xttyTvGGi8L6Pk nzhi5ORsEsSZeuwzSfH3dE0x82mLlCp8Gi/Z04v8Q6leSSGwG6SBpVi9eqDggwQxWW2Wrqgyv YyNEM0mVscRjzH8BMXltYVgzAXvI9FEx/A6onsrD5s62GFKuUCTehCSyYZ/v/kzSFNnJJpPm0 vrYcCuST6IHA6o7o/8DcrHZtRC9arsfOShnTIPm1IVTIn8ZyaaF6R9xacQg3goLtAG1d/d0N7 8pHd/FKpVnurImF1Uw43tbRoWfsaPIYJeZm8KpE5UviKptxZ8mv24QSGJHl+CTkunOmksOnVj qkLxqQac6Ez1pLXEk5L5gwv8X3p0echWdcDxvQwbUDoh8gcEwJ3RAyQhchXzL/TsF+99RBYtX tI0SgTMRZ5KUuCIZvGyLPUzxqpoGluldBsE1pFJRp+fwQSlnHBJixtTRLDv4tGb6eyJ0eC5 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dFcs0Vhfz4ZyW X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.55 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.03)[-0.033]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.07)[-0.069]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.75)[-0.746]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 19:06:38 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:43:58 +0200, Per Hedeland wrote: > On 2020-06-04 08:23, Polytropon wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:56:37 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > > > >> Could you tell me what this tool "diff" is. > > > > A diff (the tool, the process, and its result) means "difference". > > For example, if you find a manpage where the explanation for a > > certain option is missing, you take the original file, make a > > working copy of it, change that working copy, and create a file > > that contains the difference (i. e., the diff, also often > > called the patch) between the original and the updated version. > > This diff can then be sent to the FreeBSD team, and they will > > apply it; the next issue of FreeBSD will then contain the > > updated manpage instead of the original one. > > > > See "man diff" and "man patch" for details. > > > > Persons who have proven to be trusted contributors will get > > direct access to the source code repository: they can check in > > their changes by themselves. > > > > Here is a simplified outline of the process: > > > > # cd /usr/src/bin/ls > > # cp ls.1 ls.1.orig > > # vim ls.1 > > ... you make your changes ... > > :wq > > # diff ls.1 ls.1.orig > ls.1.diff > > Sorry to pick on this one error in the huge amounts of useful info > that you provide, but this is *really* not the way to use diff, at > least not if you expect anyone else to use the result. First, it > produces a reverse diff, i.e. the changes needed to go from the new > version of the file to the old one, which is at least > annoying/confusing - and second, in combination with using the > (unfortunately default) "normal" format, it becomes pretty much > useless. These days, the proper way is > > # diff -u ls.1.orig ls.1 > ls.1.diff This is of course fully correct. My primary intention was to provide an (over)simplified idea of how the diff + patch process works. Thank you for providing a better explanantion, in addition of pointing out _what_ to improve here. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 19:23:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD3432E0D7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 19:23:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dG0g6CyPz4d6l for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 19:23:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MOV26-1jKJrr0Tza-00Pskk; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 21:23:37 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:23:36 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions , Ralf Mardorf Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604212336.8fe541cd.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:AeYNnDmitK+WhREtQwiieDu5E+kFQPzp9/nhN8vY53JAC2AIsn3 b0rQnNXYlWx0wRFFEvJnM0OGrtlcBtsSkDlThezdfZ9ufGgB0qclZb6kbeXUtF9WZc6bV9M Egd9BNeGKY74RMzTkNpShZ+V2KTyYeuDFp4zP6FouhzQ2AxQEQoEbowiQTdIgrUvMTGdp6c 3lLbFDxV8tRY4mrMR3uVw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:XWmVYos4Xh4=:/6v0+1zCpSxmekzulBc6hy g/btcKN3zYnawNhupPFgpj20G+XEQN/xKH3kSle+WFAz1IOTA/USe7c6rZ3IzxxHBKMB5N4Px SM6Bi1KB2V0eQ8JfYw2hcrdnGq2fZeQ8nUHpi8MVhcdMpGrWjfXtRU4QkbN9cgnApVu8krkuo omq63Fhwxs5rDgnTjGx8McJgFqEZW8P5g9nzTaYZrpXB9upusuhiEaNffNBBFBRJfy01cmmOl M8vZ0o9q1jDqw7EiJYnMTgi3+DQdnbAj4h+PDi8vIG5tkQ77FuQvmg9YPmiQZnQDElVJK9X2L qI3wgRUNRsuedR5r9gL/vXxX0qfhWp8+5xAUue8xusKUrHMi39ckOKF4w9d01oOcAhJztLGcE vq5rog4gQdW81N6JmAY1QpUYJmpcm9Gec+DCh32hkorucM2wVoHB8Pll0wy8BXPM8oE9cSrgB NNl+kaGFrDKElfUv88/NBwZZDdyCs/aYy/PSCzVzw2MC1mJ/xxlwhZqRN0PWE0zSSr+QXgYg4 /vAdbcTHdiOgdqHRHsCrJ0Imlv9QRFdiEiA8W96/8rPmW1DFlcybGE8TdFdlqeOAcbzhOvOly SC4XbzCq6Lv1rAdRZmGKu7I+RlM9eYxeFjEXNTzEuCAQVf7iaJ9u0WsKUlLnAoDZLCSLd47qM k8i8brxHX9lRBSG4CMdX6sXu0U8jVAQY9MUaslK0A5AbVMIMltWldRMuDLYIbYqzCoi/Ku4sN 4KTNL9xWbdDFTiJQaHMOp9kC+69paBgp1hGSrFQ/9fjTZK+s6UMAhNlinTLycYX7u8qy5dQDW a2iMFV6s//HbDZh7URlw/BBI7qDjw1g5Ww+3eZB4Ob0lGzKRDaCIMWoJ0eSO/hP0/0C/nwb26 8NH4jeHPcAUsscPDlrZA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dG0g6CyPz4d6l X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.39 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.11)[0.113]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.49)[-0.486]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.37)[0.365]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[freebsd.org,rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 19:23:48 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 02:59:04 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > I looked at the link and could not tell what was wrong with > the archive. There is nothing wrong with the archives - they work as expected. However, the MUA you are using leads to distorted messages and disrupts the flow, so it's not possible to see "who wrote what", i. e., what did you write, what was cited, what was being replied to, and so on. It also damages the message's formatting (newlines and tabs and citing indentation), which makes the message look terrible. > I will install an MUA and use that and try and set up the mail > server later with postfix. A good idea. There is plenty of choice. Basically, you can even use Thunderbird, but make sure it's configured properly (no HTML message, plain text, line wrapping suggested at < 70 colums, and citing indentation is "> ", note the space). But there are also lightweight and powerful GUI mailers such as Sylpheed, or TUI mailers like pine, alpine, or mutt, which are very popular among FreeBSD users. > I'm assuming there are multiple layers that go along with email. Of course. :-) You can see the MUA, the mail _user_ agent, at the top, facing the user, and you have several things in between before your message reaches a recipient, such as a MSA (mail submision agent), a MTA (mail transfer agent), and you can have additional components like spam filters or IMAP interfaces or even a web mailer. All those are available on FreeBSD, by the way, so if you wanted to do local experiments, you could run all of those (!) on your own machine without having to worry about static IPs... > Again may I ask what is writing shell scripts. Is that the same > as editing .xsession or .xinitrc? More or less. While .xinitrc and .xsession are rather simple scripts used to do "autostart" functions, shell scripts can be quite complex and contain a lot of logic. Just see /etc/rc - it's a shell script that controls the boot process of your FreeBSD system. It uses other files to be conditionally incorporated and processed. Those files are in /etc/rc.d/ (for OS components) and in /usr/local/etc/rc.d/ (for 3rd party components installed from ports or packages). Internally, the ports collection as well as the system sources also use shell scripts, often embedded in Makefiles - files that are used by the tool "make" to automatically resolve dependencies and provide a "processing logic" for source files. Again, the primary tool here is a text editor. Advanced editors like vim, emacs, mcedit etc. are able to display and edit shell scripts and Makefiles in a convenient way. The difference in editing those scripts compared to .xinitrc or .xsession is the complexity and the involved constructs. An overview about the shell used for shell scripting, its language and its built-in functions can be found in "man sh". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 20:30:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2568C3306FD for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic310-11.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic310-11.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dHTv4Znzz3Z04 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:30:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: OEsW1RsVM1lSKGpMDB2thLd7rZO9tgKgI0MSEWzJAFXsWMYiGthlevQhRWJ12TH uvW2Y1VehT5vuE_PG0HHEBDPf8PHswI7RVh1LmXf0u_tXHW0B59zi67GbJurrzD8RaaUdaiyxozk vYsuobYHSsTik2VXkgDbnDh.pyb6erg0KsndbXmNotdDZvmL6czgmQRoxqKq_C45yCymuTL0olMK FEbkS8SSp4QuYl8BOug.aox14tEj6bB23NyZuf7aISAw0dSXQ7NmIdqlrWWiLB2AVWP6Kz8hOpyp 5ExumLasYWDiIfnO_.7XfyFVcJxmcEfU5TY7imnd4VpuDGh9sv6TD34Yw9lEMC1Ygr.5842rLHnW eCd91vFSUlsUxCvfukPYqgBCV8PQ2jOHD9DsLGz.j8SiOdLzvLdtr58EArTB74G.Vmpx8aOK6mcT N3DarvRqh8ygG.UGIblegDuZvHAlOzk8etpnGdJQy94TzwCII4YPdBfwpbXVC1S5qiyRy6ix.0q1 GTLKKgIZUOXoW61lKo7gl322o4AXm71jeiK67Apc3BNcl4lDfJY3EZQ_Paz7RpBUxgIOELxErFt9 TDYSeCCbKEECmXFjj1k4kTAchMkTw3MGNCCBdgbegTdBEfJ1ylxjD0jNdzTLytwrfmawqt_72jR7 RcTJTlqNVnMMoHTed7WQ0NatFFUQyyCaB6CVzaS0osoQid7naYe2jZh7ScqxyUpcss5DVFuf_QPa qQxfTCv5J7gRr43AYHRlbEGnRHOoKIqxrFm9N5SeDwAkh_Cr87TvjUt1Gko75qclIZ3MZUEvDpNR X1342fCF6YQBm87mrbPo5OihPXoRoiCMeYN9KSpq2brK3qLsadgd0x5tDpBx_Hvpw7awwK_X2Hon x1hgX15GUZcCyUOyeRdlnOS99YsxsqWRVUkNlkTR4zdKGNxPBHnvpFhSOhDqUsAAhqIB.uGNYRPo lHQ1jY_w0Zh0EzMiJINW.i1Y3lxykZFZXs2lkjp.hxhi51ep02Nkuc_XtaWlroIjHrf3iMH5yDIA eISKmfl8HDISlyCiMSCk1QW4rOlftdqhZ9AllKLlA3_7L9sYtt4zBmewhh.ltJ_KOofa4WecuopC B4spY4COLTbl1b_fT5bW0uk9FbJ2oLmWHWUeZauAb.LMU0qDZZI6pRsKRDd7yKlicBeihb4pu0G8 mfWbtYZWQ42cfmEYY3DCxK150covl5sgE4gEnSY8IjyI8jEZStgOYsl9Hb9uX7ijt82UisbZ17HL 8Przo072yHZys3XMW2sGQiVRThKvTBaBZFVgLr6zjFcBESKtnlmOLIARouY0CkSYzcBypSoEJT8j d21BX3Lx0rjmarP1Te3lWv2AcDPK7aCF443j9vRtplRJMGp3Cppd9Ma.061apf6XlCpDZ Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:30:41 +0000 Received: by smtp413.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c13b900defc084baaf711aeedadd9698; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:30:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:30:41 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604223041.71e07383@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200604212336.8fe541cd.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604212336.8fe541cd.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dHTv4Znzz3Z04 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.20 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.013]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.177.32:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.68)[-0.675]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.177.32:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:30:45 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:23:36 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >Again, the primary tool here is a text editor. Advanced editors >[...] are able to display and edit shell scripts [...] in a >convenient way. An important feature is "syntax highlighting". FWIW there's nothing wrong with using a GUI editor and keeping your goal in mind, you probably should take a look at IDEs. Non-GUI editors are more or less only required for emergencies, in the worst case only Vi is available on UNIXoid platforms, so it's worse to use it for a few days, before possibly migrating to another editor. YMMV! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 20:43:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CAA7331544 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:43:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dHmG00G4z3c0y for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:43:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MTOZQ-1jX00J3JDI-00Tod7; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:43:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:43:03 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604224303.9aff5dea.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200604223041.71e07383@archlinux> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604212336.8fe541cd.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604223041.71e07383@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:kX335Qs1++mi6Eo4kLk3rzq7REjsLz6PauLFhag6hvEKq5mX8e7 yynmNy0cZP4WfjvwEq66Ve3GrgjQueoGy5oMR8vgzUbwpoNE/5xXRHauXK4YUYVjOfhSrr4 RuyhkwKVPTC3BXe7LpFNYW3vCWuqnA1d2fLEbnN87RD8zp1qc5HOjnq1LxW9jaInbf029DM YMYkUsTMn2/+8UTcomGYQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:exQnEYGkosc=:MAx5BYvsA845Q8Buwj3DRG T62tbinfhj5a//ZnTgA69B0zyqEjnDzBkjndC8A3ZwrXaaeBijSLfTeyKpTGoMKs7/MudmOLj PGiUPjmNtWvlusdSZ9GWd9a1gpj7U8qCPQZq0ueKmpZGb9aJIi0Gw4uBKUHRXy5QwZV+0TucP Q6CSY+9RvBNARAlkZp6Sd+OOGY3Fb3yA3bwnPjomoE1X/aQt070NC/QxMAaceoCwpRAgVEJtR fWiy/gMzW1pBbzZ1ASRBLnQWmA/2kl/Pr8VA7tE9jy3/GR6UPxrHq2aN6WEYG5hZafBXTaX4n j1pey6kVXf8v2Rat8aOFyEzNYykY9zm5WEABAQE5N8ekKxUJFL+6B0Qnr+DaiqqdbgVdLCxb7 LgYXTmtfRxxQsxhxpCocBHWnD9rKgQHGXuJiRLHrFvXvlU2Fobh54lo7ohEf631pJDRGJjLY0 cPSTz+6eBUoAgBGaBVQQNjZqxReZVmGk+vZQditUjLv5Y+OFHBVyKqM8LESHwHqPRwmmitia0 a7r6IQD3bqMLydlgcZlqmZRIaUdY6ovZ2s55NqHagrP4s1BueXTONRIleAomXTSI6eC0hRMfh pWWot4uDXjcsH4PH0hel/FmBXXBV/Yj/UoQ/cf51ywILYqgFob86fn1iNS9PDv4Lzr25MtNnb uCWehxu4DSRmun3H8GNjj/wlmedsvtn6qRpt0Wl8AiSO0Lb3SpkzLZMoNt2GK8tSkFneL8YCQ IkoCx+cF/KLqdUYyRFO739+pSy/idMLeBYSMSLZVbhAAoxKoaVbGg7DyHSzn9jL24md/LP6RC 5nG0EKLmkvfxq2UeC599iLkMAV79m9U2+GuiCkNnKzLr/uXCoDrGB3pxkJcQoJTC5YRVHvW X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dHmG00G4z3c0y X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.79 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.21)[-0.213]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.48)[-0.476]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.08)[0.079]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:43:11 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:30:41 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:23:36 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > >Again, the primary tool here is a text editor. Advanced editors > >[...] are able to display and edit shell scripts [...] in a > >convenient way. > > An important feature is "syntax highlighting". Definitely true - it helps a lot. > FWIW there's nothing > wrong with using a GUI editor and keeping your goal in mind, you > probably should take a look at IDEs. Depends. In my experience, IDEs tend to add complexity for no real benefit, especially in the realm of shell scripts and Makefiles. However, in more complex projects, especially in relation to Java and Android development, they can be quite useful. While some people suggest to _start_ with IDEs, I would rather say the opposite: Start with simple pieces that you can understand, see how they work together; understand the UNIX philosophy. If you have done so, move to a more complex world where those tools are integrated (the 'I' in 'IDE'), so you know what's happening "under the hood", which is important to know (!) if you want to be a port maintainer. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. And if your focus is manpages, there's another interesting option: The Midnight Commander has a built-in manpage viewer, and its editor has syntax highlighting for manpages (and I even have my own custom colors for that): Move the cursor to a manpage source file, press PF4 and edit it; save and exit, then press PF3 and see how it renders. Of course there is nothing wrong with utilizing mcedit and mcview in combination with a FAM (file alteration monitor) so you can see the update immediately after saving your changes. "Computer: Alterieren!" ;-) > Non-GUI editors are more or > less only required for emergencies, in the worst case only Vi is > available on UNIXoid platforms, so it's worse to use it for a few > days, before possibly migrating to another editor. YMMV! Well, vim in a X terminal is a non-GUI editor, but I would hardly call it "for emergencies". :-) Additionally, there's always gvim; it adds icons and hierarchical menus, and you can still have all the power of regular vim. And don't get me started of how emacs, being a TUI editor, is one of the most powerful development environments, because it is hard for me to explain this because the magic and power of emacs never really occured to me (I'm too stupid for that), and I have developed into a "vi person", but that doesn't make me "look down" on emacs - it's the opposite: it's such a great and powerful tool that I don't even understand it. ;-) By the way, FreeBSD has both vi and ee (more obvious user interface!) in the standard system for decades, so whenever you have a problem, "ee /etc/rc.conf" is probably the more convenient thing to do than "vi /etc/rc.conf"... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 20:52:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84FA331758 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:52:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dHyT1wLVz3dDS for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:52:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id m18so9038058ljo.5 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:52:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=0YhMriWkbawA1QlFF7R7GgmCfYZRX0ucaTO+nIEYYoU=; b=Iuj7HHY1c2Y9fz7zFio47w0AdBKIx1/COQHZbKS7MjXInP7FLYrJUS7NyNHZ0Od2X1 XKui06CJZoztJYKGWKMkKFWQMI+Qs4ESNYAkf7hqAqME6W7/GfeF5SKLFuBEwzYLC3Z9 76cwaU14M0A6vTX636PN7Jr2wV7G3gicKriTNRRvjpSG2s8iXgNGnDlsd6iDVsJTXVvM K1Hrlkk98cE8pYXkHtDoPYVe64WYezDpYAR21mAKXc9+v5edM84BmhbGQ9BHiHR9a0XM 7cYmQp7cBSMk5/g9tusLZq4zzi8dEBq6/YAbpYJXryeMhHaXTaEpLy6xKFWyHunYUHCG i57A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0YhMriWkbawA1QlFF7R7GgmCfYZRX0ucaTO+nIEYYoU=; b=qVmjTr3e1SFjCLJQs2t81lRE8kqf23mGNU7+BZXbB7+6TcqrWig90MAe8FlQXWmRle zMIIirUXYOsxnIQm8C7VCwYbfwfs6bzLkfWFkG0AaE+O/nX7L4fNEPCPQBxDg4gO6bMo /fTGKHMY/5316OWWuuKmzzbNw9qKk+M7HX5VkNG1EWSBbu2RWYaMvU4EDP6AjrJLuECQ FJT5kEBzVC+eG3IQZFNHDZNnQFt8StPNiAAWTRUT6WICVwuutpzVKeORrIJxT1uuzD5I DRWKSXJmKWt6BsG5zNl5uLcFvFXHALdOsPVEKqQR1eqn7Tke8LAkONwVtiouY7QfvzyS SNtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RlOG7AzbjlOfVP788XR7B1GAe+f/T7gRBPYt40pTbttoSsveM A5cxVS7XX3BxeMLALT+mJiK56ZLVHUK19zo33rg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwvbplTn4jD0hCZwZFGdfKzWwd5cMp125QpYG4RUYnjFN8EA+x5giLnHolHqYuF+WqedZhqXY5+p3aMwhrlJbo= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:900a:: with SMTP id h10mr2970976ljg.329.1591303919449; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:51:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200604223041.71e07383@archlinux> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604212336.8fe541cd.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604223041.71e07383@archlinux> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:51:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Polytropon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dHyT1wLVz3dDS X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Iuj7HHY1; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.75 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.867]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.956]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::233:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:52:02 -0000 On 6/4/20, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:23:36 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >>Again, the primary tool here is a text editor. Advanced editors >>[...] are able to display and edit shell scripts [...] in a >>convenient way. > > An important feature is "syntax highlighting". FWIW there's nothing > wrong with using a GUI editor and keeping your goal in mind, you > probably should take a look at IDEs. Non-GUI editors are more or > less only required for emergencies, in the worst case only Vi is > available on UNIXoid platforms, so it's worse to use it for a few > days, before possibly migrating to another editor. YMMV! On that note, I highly recommend SciTE as a GUI text editor available on all platforms, with syntax highlighting. As far as IDEs, both Eclipse and the Jetbrains tools -- I use RubyMine daily and have used PHPstorm and others -- are highly dependent on Java. Take care when choosing such tools, and be prepared for problems. Start at the very simple level, as I said. Learn the FreeBSD boot process, the startup sequencing -- /boot, rc, and rc.d are great starting points. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 20:53:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98B2331C93 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:53:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dHzt5NB4z3dV3 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:53:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:53:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <78957cef-a223-a095-ff0c-88c7e04d2d71@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 13:53:06 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dHzt5NB4z3dV3 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.17 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.693]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.036]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.54)[0.539]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:53:15 -0000 On 2020-06-04 01:14, Brandon helsley wrote: > I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. > I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it takes a couple years!!! Writing good documentation is both an art and a science. But, the author must first understand the language of the subject. The common language of FreeBSD and CS/E is C. The canonical C book is: https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html Once you can read C, then you will be able to read the canonical FreeBSD book: https://www.pearson.com/store/p/design-and-implementation-of-the-freebsd-operating-system-the/P100001308622 David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 21:02:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F764331D60 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04olkn080a.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe4d::80a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dJBw17v7z3ffM for ; 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NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.34)[-1.337]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:2a01:111:f000::/36, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 21:02:52 -0000 >Writing good documentation is both an art and a science. But, the author must first understand the language of the subject. The common language of FreeBSD and CS/E is C. >The canonical C book is: >https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html >Once you can read C, then you will be able to read the canonical FreeBSD book: >https://www.pearson.com/store/p/design-and-implementation-of-the-freebsd-operating-system-the/P100001308622 The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. Wouldn't it be better to use a newer study book? Should I look for something newer? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 2:53 PM, David Christensen wrote: > > > On 2020-06-04 01:14, Brandon helsley wrote: > I started using FreeBSD about 2 months ago and have purchased books like absolute freebsd and have learned a lot. > I can set up a desktop environment that has all the programs I need, so that's not the problem. It's that I want to progress past simple editing of configuration files and minor system administration tasks like the crontab. I want to try and stick with FreeBSD as my main and probably mostly only OS. Meaning, I would like to skip the ubuntu step. It seems as though the FreeBSD docs is the way to go. Just read it over a few times, as well as the porters handbook. I'll get straight to it so I can contribute to ports and docs, even if it takes a couple years!!! Writing good documentation is both an art and a science. But, the author must first understand the language of the subject. The common language of FreeBSD and CS/E is C. The canonical C book is: https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Progr amming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html Once you can read C, then you will be able to read the canonical FreeBSD book: https://www.pearson.com/store/p/design-and-implementation-of-the-freebsd-operating-system-the/P100001308622 David _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 21:15:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A0A3323EC for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:15:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dJTq6WF0z3y1F for ; 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But, the > author must first understand the language of the subject. The common > language of FreeBSD and CS/E is C. > >>The canonical C book is: >>https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html > >>Once you can read C, then you will be able to read the canonical FreeBSD > > book: > >>https://www.pearson.com/store/p/design-and-implementation-of-the-freebsd-operating-system-the/P100001308622 > The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. Wouldn't > it be better to use a newer study book? Should I look for something newer? > Actually, besides being THE go-to reference on C, it's the best-written C book out there and the most elegant presentation of the basic concepts. I have a bunch. While the bits and pieces AROUND C have evolved, C itself really hasn't. I prefer the K&R braces over GNU, myself, even though most of the 'NIX world is tilting towards the GNU landslide. Thank you for interspersing your comments as I asked, Brandon. You have shown the whole Project that you can learn and WILCO without complaint! Good coder, GOOD! :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 21:22:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA373327FA for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM11-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam11olkn2088.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.18.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dJdR67Rkz40Js for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:22:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; 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Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:22:17 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:6444DB2822367534F6166C19BC5902A9F4510675ADF403CA3B1BFABC946A680F; UpperCasedChecksum:3965A4A4BB93DC7ED952EC1072394A4F4A81CAD80F96DD2753F49DBAE4CCABA2; SizeAsReceived:9323; Count:47 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e]) by CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.018; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:22:17 +0000 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:22:16 -0600 From: Brandon helsley To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-questions , David Christensen Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> Subject: Re: Minimal skills X-ClientProxiedBy: CY4PR02CA0048.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:117::34) To CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:910:7a::16) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <6e0b0f32-f686-4876-8cd9-48fc4412fe49@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.39] (184.96.131.37) by CY4PR02CA0048.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:117::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=IzF22omK; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.18.88 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.22 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.26)[-1.255]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.985]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.18.88:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.18.88:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 21:22:21 -0000 >Actually, besides being THE go-to reference on C, it's the best-written C book out there and the most elegant presentation of the basic concepts. I have a bunch. While the bits and pieces AROUND C have evolved, C itself really hasn't. I prefer the K&R braces over GNU, myself, even though most of the 'NIX world is tilting towards the GNU landslide. >Thank you for interspersing your comments as I asked, Brandon. You have shown the whole Project that you can learn and WILCO without complaint! Good coder, GOOD! :D I'm doing the indentation myself. Does your mailer do the indentation for you or do you do it yourself? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 3:15 PM, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > On 6/4/20, Brandon helsley wrote: > >>Writing good documentation is both an art and a science. But, the > author must first understand the language of the subject. The common > language of FreeBSD and CS/E is C. > >>The canonical C book is: >>https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html > >>Once you can read C, then you will be able to read the canonical FreeBSD > > book: > >>https://www.pearson.com/store/p/design-and-implementation-of-the-freebsd-operating-system-the/P100001308622 > The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. Wouldn't > it be better to use a newer study book? Should I look for something newer? > Actually, besides being THE go-to reference on C, it's the best-written C book out there and the most elegant presentation of the basic concepts. I have a bunch. While the bits and pieces AROUND C have evolved, C itself reall y hasn't. I prefer the K&R braces over GNU, myself, even though most of the 'NIX world is tilting towards the GNU landslide. Thank you for interspersing your comments as I asked, Brandon. You have shown the whole Project that you can learn and WILCO without complaint! Good coder, GOOD! :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 21:52:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D02D333326 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:52:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@chthonixia.net) Received: from mail1.g14.pair.com (mail1.g14.pair.com [66.39.4.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dKHh4dgQz43fY for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:52:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@chthonixia.net) Received: from mail1.g14.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.g14.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63061223D5E for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ghostyhead.chthonixia.net (cpe-108-176-147-163.nyc.res.rr.com [108.176.147.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail1.g14.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 29C54223D58 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:51:52 -0400 From: "Joe A." To: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200604215152.GA81674@ghostyhead.chthonixia.net> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dKHh4dgQz43fY X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@chthonixia.net has no SPF policy when checking 66.39.4.16) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@chthonixia.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.70 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.07)[-0.071]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.07)[-0.069]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[chthonixia.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.04)[0.039]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7859, ipnet:66.39.0.0/17, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[66.39.4.16:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 21:52:02 -0000 On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 03:02:40PM -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > > I began to use (with a desktop focus) FreeBSD in 1999 or perhaps early 2000; it was version 3.3 on a CD. I was at some sort of tech conference and someone gave it to me. Early on, I could install it; but had no idea how to obtain applications. So, there is minimal skill and then there is almost no skill. One of the first things I did was purchase a book on FreeBSD and read it cover to cover; I see you've done that. Over time, I've learned here and there enough to keep a machine running and how to work around or solve a variety of problems (mostly; AMD GPUs are just not worth my time, so I worked-around by purchasing an Nvidia PCI card - there's always another way). Some things you may wish to work on, in my view: 1) Have you learned to secure your machines for remote logins via SSH? If not, and you have more than one machine, do that because it's useful. 2) Have you learned, clearly, the difference between an MUA and an MTA? See above, since (IIRC) you plan to set up a local MTA. 2a) Setting up your consumer line to host a local MTA? That's an all-the-nopes-ever-noped thing. See also: why Sendmail isn't secure. (note to gallery: I know what you're thinking. Don't even.) If you really want to set up an MTA, purchase a low-end, low-cost instance in a Xen environment. See the handbook; and there are vendors who sell FreeBSD instantiations. Why? That's a topic of research for the user. 3) Can you use a console MUA, like mutt? If not, learn how....it's invaluable. For instance, if you (for some reason) can't use a GUI MUA; maybe the X install fails - what will you do? Employ an iPhone or an Android? Or (shudder to think) an MS Windows GUI? What about if you have a remote machine (or even one on a home LAN that you use for testing) from which you wish or need to send email? IME, writing up a file for something and transferring it from machine to machine is just not the way to go. I really think learning to use Mutt is your best bet, though there are other console MUA choices. Learn how, for instance, to set it up to do SMTP-AUTH via its configuration file, etcetera. Over time, you'll find it's immeasurably easier than a GUI. 4) Avoid vi. Finally, and reiterating, it is very well within the realm of possibility that an absolute beginner can learn, in short order, how to successfully use FreeBSD as a desktop; and the route to more sophisticated use is pretty much equally possible. Ditto for contributing. Hope this was useful; and best regards, Joe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 21:59:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBA13339FD for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:59:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10008516866.7f87e5013f55d15d9c168e80f5c9c985@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dKSp0kSRz44Br for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 21:59:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10008516866.7f87e5013f55d15d9c168e80f5c9c985@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591307994; x=1593899994; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=e9ZCzlIroZs5HHZQkk2cCzbjzLHs4E9b0qlE1buBo1k=; b=OH5zANtRTXxW4NIRO6pquFN7fvZ2KX26BnYILh+ig1z7ditdU/MlczveI87PiIWKvKlEu1aplGyL64ost/bghV3FGmGXJ92CPXboaZ+LOP6XndxpjQemWtR7/gJNQRr0hjzItK1o7M0cbdAljtJyNaTKa1/Y3EtxO40EhDFJ94c= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDg1MTY4NjYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:59:40 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:59:40 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jgxti-000JlM-K1 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:59:38 +0100 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:59:38 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dKSp0kSRz44Br X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=OH5zANtR; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10008516866.7f87e5013f55d15d9c168e80f5c9c985@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10008516866.7f87e5013f55d15d9c168e80f5c9c985@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.049]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.148]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10008516866.7f87e5013f55d15d9c168e80f5c9c985@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10008516866.7f87e5013f55d15d9c168e80f5c9c985@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 21:59:55 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:22:16 -0600 Brandon helsley wrote: > I'm doing the indentation myself. Does your mailer do the indentation for > you or do you do it yourself? Many mailers know how to prefix and indent quoted material, many even know how to re-wrap it when the indentation pushes line length conventions. They also tend to know about the dash-dash-space-newline signature break convention and strip signatures on reply. Choice of mailer is every bit as personal and contentious as choice of text editor - FWIW I use Sylpheed and vim because they've both failed to irritate me much for many years now. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 22:02:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B00333EA8 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:02:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@passap.ru) Received: from forward105p.mail.yandex.net (forward105p.mail.yandex.net [77.88.28.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dKWS6GBfz44pY for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:02:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@passap.ru) Received: from mxback1j.mail.yandex.net (mxback1j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::10a]) by forward105p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id C13B84D40614 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:02:09 +0300 (MSK) Received: from iva7-d5f903270d57.qloud-c.yandex.net (iva7-d5f903270d57.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c0c:6e00:0:640:d5f9:327]) by mxback1j.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id 2QcX0ILwwt-29aSIss2; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:02:09 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=passap.ru; s=mail; t=1591308129; bh=qWDJoZwcThdxcFuocwrAf0mFemvlqO0rn/zHfMoVezo=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:Message-ID; b=A+2IR+CQ0CE2heYM79SDsiES/JgLyLbB6fR2sZX1RaNH5/kL35/++YvnRItPmwcC1 JVZP+OpaG1+fvGmtmTFdaEUu9lxUM9EakuX7W7+d0WxEsYv/45Ya/tHjMkqWnlXtio cO2UC8au4MxS0PPXQzA7GP7EGhzJmncWUg+IZgWc= Received: by iva7-d5f903270d57.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id OxL0Rb65zV-29ce7F1D; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:02:09 +0300 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Boris Samorodov Subject: FreeBSD + Huion pad + Okular = PDF comments Message-ID: <14e558ae-51d2-362d-f00d-29b461fa3a31@passap.ru> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:02:08 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dKWS6GBfz44pY X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=passap.ru header.s=mail header.b=A+2IR+CQ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsam@passap.ru designates 77.88.28.108 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsam@passap.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[passap.ru:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:77.88.0.0/18]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.041]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[passap.ru]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[passap.ru:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.35)[-0.351]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.88.28.108:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:77.88.0.0/18, country:RU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.88.28.108:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:02:14 -0000 Hi All! I've got a Huion H640P pad for PDF documents commenting and managed to use it with FreeBSD. The pad (usbconfig): ugen0.6: at usbus0, cfg=0 md=HOST spd=FULL (12Mbps) pwr=ON (100mA) 1. Fix /usr/local/etc/rc.d/wacom so the pad is not used as a mouse (ums): ----- % diff -u wacom.orig wacom --- wacom.orig 2020-06-05 00:37:41.365545000 +0300 +++ wacom 2020-06-04 20:13:46.478145000 +0300 @@ -35,12 +35,16 @@ # Prevent moused(8) from picking up bogus /dev/umsN usbconfig add_dev_quirk_vplh 0x056a 0 0 0xffff UQ_MATCH_VENDOR_ONLY usbconfig add_dev_quirk_vplh 0x056a 0 0 0xffff UQ_UMS_IGNORE + usbconfig add_dev_quirk_vplh 0x256c 0 0 0xffff UQ_MATCH_VENDOR_ONLY + usbconfig add_dev_quirk_vplh 0x256c 0 0 0xffff UQ_UMS_IGNORE } wacom_stop() { usbconfig remove_dev_quirk_vplh 0x056a 0 0 0xffff UQ_MATCH_VENDOR_ONLY usbconfig remove_dev_quirk_vplh 0x056a 0 0 0xffff UQ_UMS_IGNORE + usbconfig remove_dev_quirk_vplh 0x256c 0 0 0xffff UQ_MATCH_VENDOR_ONLY + usbconfig remove_dev_quirk_vplh 0x256c 0 0 0xffff UQ_UMS_IGNORE } run_rc_command "$1" ----- 2. Add the pad to /usr/local/etc/devd/webcamd.conf^ ----- % diff -u webcamd.conf.orig webcamd.conf --- webcamd.conf.orig 2020-06-05 00:41:05.265602000 +0300 +++ webcamd.conf 2020-06-04 23:24:26.235005000 +0300 @@ -64,3 +64,15 @@ action "/usr/local/etc/rc.d/webcamd start $cdev $interface"; }; +# Huion pad +notify 100 { + match "system" "USB"; + match "subsystem" "INTERFACE"; + match "type" "ATTACH"; + + match "vendor" "0x256c"; + match "product" "0x006e|0x006d"; + + action "/usr/local/etc/rc.d/webcamd start $cdev $interface"; +}; + ----- 3. Add an InputClass for xorg (taken from a Linux driver): ----- % cat /usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/huion.conf Section "InputClass" Identifier "Huion tablets with Wacom driver" MatchUSBID "5543:006e|256c:006e|256c:006d" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" MatchIsKeyboard "false" Driver "wacom" EndSection ----- 4. Start hald as well as webcamd. The end result is: ----- % xsetwacom --list devices Pen stylus id: 12 type: STYLUS Pad pad id: 13 type: PAD % xinput list ⎡ Virtual core pointer id=2 [master pointer (3)] ⎜ ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer id=4 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ System mouse id=6 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ IntelliMouse id=9 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ Logitech USB Receiver id=11 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ Pen stylus id=12 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ Pad pad id=13 [slave pointer (2)] ⎣ Virtual core keyboard id=3 [master keyboard (2)] ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard id=5 [slave keyboard (3)] ↳ System keyboard multiplexer id=7 [slave keyboard (3)] ↳ AT keyboard id=8 [slave keyboard (3)] ↳ Logitech USB Receiver id=10 [slave keyboard (3)] ----- Mind spaces at the "Pad pad" name. Because the following command won't work: ----- % xsetwacom set "Pad pad" Button 10 "key ctrl Z" Cannot find device 'Pad pad'. ----- However spaces make it to do the job: ----- % xsetwacom set " Pad pad" Button 10 "key ctrl Z" % ----- So at the end of the day I've got a system capable of commenting PDF files. Okular is good enough here. Huion pads seems to be a good peace of hardware. Fnd a bit cheeper then the other company ones. ;-) Have a nice day. -- WBR, bsam From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 22:20:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93CA33471F for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dKx15cPQz46PP for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MvaSG-1irtTg3REE-00seXf; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:20:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:20:49 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605002049.6a7a24a7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:HpQy1fzrmlJ9+FYZW5F5JZxFc+8oeXvympXmukFv7E9zU7gkZJ2 R+GAMwLHBmBwXCUtB/KvUCnFfwia7Spe6CYvP55AwAwyRxHGit/KR4N+BUiFAMR/dQ9xsgQ 4IeLr5IrTeHR4h43EeFvX9ZGEtV6C87iEnqlzIp/o8tTVNkcZLc/oiAIWX3gPw4xVtJWqPZ p8kC1djnvGMGy1cLo/s/Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:mGnAM71qEWw=:7K5Ht5vJGj8kgLcERmWQ4q iD35Eey16HcYzqCitOLEa6OUdr0ZxSUSdN9QfbpZzrFMrdrm4aPYxFcf+lVr0z4wV3nFcJvbm RLvGKlzJzUqM73FfEFZFrB6g5A1LXWjzGhSGubizb99g2UNZYzz/j+tCr3VaBRWLzpJ/QPa2c JKObHjEfYsD8pRxbBMnmMvFaOlWx52fRkOlw63z5VvnUi6UBj7tAdGn3hR3CPkQTnR+EenSwk XOjkCkvd8I+5g/KLxm0xyuX0d6qUWVUdzLsMpS800zsCp2o0y9UuXoa4DST+qIAFvk/HpmiVS 7lvOucdxwg2h4rCX/veKyidPeYL07DPdvZTk2tgVpnmXPCU7tzLjbq9ozt0tjQXviaeWcDq6d ZyOW90Qz9TEga1yvbrSsFjTGheslhXoZ09dE5ZyjEHWMxZfK470qr/ZAdvpGbkQIWwbD8wdJB 8e/qRRDP7kQGf+ukCwLJAcypJUFxHt/gbdVbg7uMmkhFdm/LCBbsqbCqqFwHbix4xtE7Xmwt8 494yeijYCtK86oc+LANiLY+XxAFs5eqedKdqegIsUW4xkHSImUNUZaHanuMfVcC6GJayup8o7 HSGajkBYy3pDwcZIlritMFdxg+uYdxlc8ZNzUlXicaRChFc6LJ3h/WmfrY3UUNhy1+ahAjru3 grDLmhNnezoAmM0QTr6X9ncFoOCEileeBNselnFXx2AzsSgIJJirS79SCmLvup9llpwb89YIM 8hkmBwNPkuQfUfl8WIRMo0E6SI8hLaxbQhWYrEGTb4v+a7yLUUaP6eJWCkuqXIjAzaMq6eYtU TS3BW8ErFpnrD0nYqhQfX0joQeQQp8YRzUEnIV1ZPADEEXPhFy/ud1iSCPMaXdyZyG+M3thza eJEI8r16+FYLuOpIU7Xw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dKx15cPQz46PP X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.76 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.511]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.29)[-0.292]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.17)[0.168]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:20:55 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:22:16 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > I'm doing the indentation myself. Does your mailer do the > indentation for you or do you do it yourself? Every half-way decent MUA should do the following: 1. Add a header of what you're replying to. 2. Insert correct citing character as "> ". 3. Allow you to manually break your lines, or do it correctly for you (suggestion is around column 70). 4. Keep the references intact ("in reply to" in mail's metadata). 5. Use reply mechanisms (to sender, to list, to all) correctly. 6. Do _not_ mangle the original messages, such as destroying the original formatting, rewriting timestamps, turn tabs into spaces, multi-spaces into single-spaces, multi-lines into single-lines, empty lines into nothing, and so on. (Yes, this does actually exist.) Even Thunderbird ("the standard MUA today") can do this. For many programs, you need to configure a few things, like prevent them from sending HTML, but once done, there is no problem. Some MUAs have more reasonable defaults than others, so you'd always want to check the actual settings. Have a look at the replies you got: This is how messages should look like. Refer to the mailing list archives for more examples, just judge by the look of "multi-level quotes" and how tidy all the messages look. As you can see, I have removed the "non-needed" parts from your message, but left everything that's relevant for my reply. In "multi-level" discussions this can be even more complex. There are several styles how people actually reply, as you can see, but all have in common that they make reading the message _easy_ and keep the logical structure of a discussion; it doesn't matter how many newlines are used, if paragraphs are intended by spaces or tabs, or styling - it depends on your individual preference. Just try to not make things more complicated than neccessary. :-) It all starts with a good MUA for list participation. You already have a system running FreeBSD. See what mailer program fits your needs. Configure it properly, and get used to the recommendations on how to write to the list. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 22:26:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3414833455D for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:26:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Dw9M=7R=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49dL3J30J0z47Qj for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:26:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Dw9M=7R=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49dL3B18dQz2fjSm; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: <20200605002049.6a7a24a7.freebsd@edvax.de> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:26:13 -0700 Cc: Brandon helsley Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6CDC7416-7F16-4F36-8ACC-8938D9DF1A96@mail.sermon-archive.info> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605002049.6a7a24a7.freebsd@edvax.de> To: freebsd-questions X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dL3J30J0z47Qj X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=Dw9M=7R=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info designates 71.177.216.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=Dw9M=7R=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.81 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:71.177.216.148]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lafn.org: no valid DMARC record]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.39)[-0.389]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=Dw9M=7R=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=Dw9M=7R=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5650, ipnet:71.177.216.0/23, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:26:21 -0000 The one item I have not seen mentioned was to read all the = freebsd-questions issues carefully. Try to understand the issue and see = if you can come up with a possible solution. Then watch the responses = and see how close you came. Also investigate so that you understand the = responses. Granted, at first most of them will be difficult to even = understand, but with experience doing that, you will find your = understanding improving. In addition, you will experience a wide = variety of issues in area you probably never dreamed existed. -- Doug From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 22:33:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A982C334C34 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:33:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dLCC2mZ2z485B for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:33:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MvJsF-1ipyIH1UUD-00rCyz; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:33:08 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:33:08 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605003308.3015108b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:5V1FE3gn8d/POiauJ3PXBREz2ndWDyKkZPyI/GsYEsz4iE8vr3I 2Ynf9vgb8mStGxXDa7vTzyE7ay4TefvvpbQXg3OVs7y0aJ+8O2HP0Pf9BQGGk2VOynccb1t U2yoVf3Oxv/lhIbacQrpEsSBOK9qeV39+2lizBViWzjZa86PzFgbowCG72nSpRMAs2d8Eb0 CajCvCzt/At79wQHazq8w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qhb/bWiEVPk=:rkTRRKH5kfkYh+Gs1WdCaH iPkhVSN1mM2w2jz9R85MYIe5MWfys7ODY3yNrlwUvy5YpQhdr6OISCP3DBoEnbRsNYKRSz8R6 KpXwRoAJksgFC0Xb1XLfaSlyZLTcxMhqEQXWmVbHE5cgkvpoUpnNoxMp7oPUJUwYL+XxnXdpb K9Iwssr+DSg7zQwcaLh/rDOIby8VI3UrkQ8gxID9o8yoxXeSfi0P5guY/trHMdgNzmihBX4xD eAGgAp0Xpq3HwFeMxsng0XrjvaRxkyuK5FaPzChr1mgz4tFLMlEOoZGyT8E1MBRJMrtfGsBuS SYKqHz0b94KvjeSNrQ+Wkm8YX9LIeXUIGo9BegwuqR9/AEvnoiugJpSSUIFASkpOXDHNTlsSJ cvyHzCQGtCnoBzJBFQippoQR/X11uxx3/UXeXQlTyU5Kst3msPZEfR4RIs8gCeCLz1Pwo5DBJ Bmnx8SZk5xPUR4pxcg+HfwYf1jUhxsF5nw5Z5S9t1AlfW5uUmkaANcdRjk5Lh7dwttfxh57b2 s9zNT+MmX7aaWb0vM4DhOYDw1RDuELOGxYNyLLk0FJ58gFpkrbg4u3AaZv7N9ikCT8fq+Pc4a IzQTdI26LloFDRQGSIpxg2OrKbO/lJ1jNxORgpflBU2j/M8O/nvC9jfvdKKRMfvhPJnuxqS4r LsH+8JAd2i8hJw9GGzj/MiyJUBdK4pPw8SfRI3csPsuxYOhANFUKErbzu1oQtztpgmTY5VNq2 Dws/qLe3u8VV9YTXIe/WVsyLwQSTNZ406+BdByvwtBvTL0Oji40+yzdNh1/uSKHVZx1KDZINF 0XqbbVylQXRfldjJrA6pggsISZR5jnoX+n8330iCiwnZmURiLTHIuGqHJlTcmdCf9YnCqiw X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dLCC2mZ2z485B X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.68 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.449]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.47)[-0.469]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.80)[-0.805]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:33:12 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:59:38 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:22:16 -0600 > Brandon helsley wrote: > > > I'm doing the indentation myself. Does your mailer do the indentation for > > you or do you do it yourself? > > Many mailers know how to prefix and indent quoted material, many > even know how to re-wrap it when the indentation pushes line length > conventions. They also tend to know about the dash-dash-space-newline > signature break convention and strip signatures on reply. For example, my (older) version of Sylpheed does all this, except the signature, but it's no problem to manually remove it. In fact, it's absolutely no problem to "tidy up" a reply before sending, as it will show your respect and gratitude toward the list. By the way, this message is an excellent example of "multi-level" reply. Some MUAs even have multicolor support for this thing. :-) You can also see that people have different reply headers and form their replies in a different way, but nothing interferes with good readability. (See infront of "Many mailers" above: ">", space, remaining tab, first words - just as it should be.) It's also not a big deal if you decide to manually do the line breaks. I have a little ruler on top of the mail composer window so I can see, in a monospace font, what columns the text occupies. > Choice of mailer is every bit as personal and contentious as choice > of text editor - FWIW I use Sylpheed and vim because they've both failed to > irritate me much for many years now. If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. You can even use Thunderbird and alpine side by side, with Maildir local storage, connecting to an IMAP account - all this is possible and does not require complicated configurations. I fully agree with Steve's statement that this choice is a very individual thing. Luckily, this is not a "once and for all times" situation, you can change your editor or mailer whenever your preferences or requirements change, without losing any data. It's even possible that you _will_ change programs as you advance and gain more experience, maybe feeling that the tools that you started with don't offer everything you need, so you begin using something else which is a better fit. By the way, several MUAs allow you to use an external editor, so if you say: I like the mailer, how it displays discussion threads and manages mailboxes, I just don't like its message editor - then you can simply use an external editor. Best of both worlds. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 22:47:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405DB334FEC for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:47:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM10-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10olkn2046.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.42.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dLXF64bmz4BVd for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:47:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Her3G1uOw/eJrzIS0Ocr0Z0iJyMLEdMigJTzxhkFdKfYxYm2o+u4qmOIY42/WSa4IsIMjOX7B6z0tQ5W70VfjG8ph6w4oRVo0Iz6qhgkp0yJ+4qJTaIfU5hgizvELpekwckkmu9lq0ZTwSMPWbQ1BGpXnMDhI219KsgXcM7bC/By/2tjds8hLx54boC33H6euQQRoRoXJGD98Wnfzy0e+tKjWx8UKTV5efd07mhycskuNKwq+LPtw/12tuqKuM/6Jxp9H0uQn15W0jmR907wjnq97zVKqH93M6d8NQUn4OH2wdoX/Ucfr2y+ijWAMRijRl7Hl0Y+qcNgQuRbggSosQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:47:55 +0000 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e86::53) by DM6NAM10FT006.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e86::270) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3021.23 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:47:55 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:71FF31AE2709B5F1AC3E250C60D6634246E04BEA374E84F9F25A6FC167876147; UpperCasedChecksum:23F39B5D05921F24909D2AED6D8F79EE4BC8B29C0EB57094B83415E6ADBD4920; SizeAsReceived:9478; Count:47 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e]) by CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.018; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:47:55 +0000 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 16:47:54 -0600 From: Brandon helsley To: Steve O'Hara-Smith , Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> References: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> Subject: Re: Minimal skills X-ClientProxiedBy: CY4PR19CA0033.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:103::19) To CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:910:7a::16) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.39] (184.96.131.37) by CY4PR19CA0033.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:103::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=WY+rXWYV; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.42.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.81 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[7]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.42.46:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.832]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.42.46:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 22:47:59 -0000 >If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. You can even use Thunderbird and alpine side by side, with Maildir local storage, connecting to an IMAP account - all this is possible and does not require complicated configurations. That's basically what I had wanted to do since I couldn't figure postfix out withal the mail components. What I am aspiring for is to set up all my three email addresses in a local mailbox like mbox or whatever. I still don't quite understand the components. It seems as though with an mua you can set this up. So then what is fetchmail and imap programs like dovecot for if an MUA works for this. Or can I only poll mail to a local mailbox in my directory tree somewhere with MTA? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 4:33 PM, Polytropon wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:59:38 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 15:22:16 -0600 > Brandon helsley wrote: > > > I'm doing the indentation myself. Does your mailer do the indentation for > > you or do you do it yourself? > > Many mailers know how to prefix and indent quoted material, many > even know how to re-wrap it when the indentation pushes line length > conventions. They also tend to know about the dash-dash-space-newline > signature break convention and strip signatures on reply. For example, my (older) version of Sylpheed does all this, except the signature, but it's no problem to manually remove it. In fact, it's absolutely no problem to "tidy up" a reply before sending, as it will show your respect and gratitude toward the list. By the way, this message is an excellent example of "multi-level" reply. Some MUAs even have multicolor support for this thing. :-) You can also see that people have different reply headers and form their replies in a different way, but nothing interferes with good readability. (See infront of "Many mailers" above: ">", space, remaining tab, first words - just as it should be.) It's also not a big deal if you decide to manually do the line breaks. I have a little ruler on top of the mail composer window so I can see, in a monospace font, what columns the text occupies. > Choice of mailer is every bit as personal and contentious as choice > of text editor - FWIW I use Sylpheed and vim because they've both failed to > irritate me much for many years now. If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. You can even use Thunderbird and alpine side by side, with Maildir local storage, connecting to an IMAP account - all this is possible and does not require complicated configurations. I fully agree with Steve's statemen t that this choice is a very individual thing. Luckily, this is not a "once and for all times" situation, you can change your editor or mailer whenever your preferences or requirements change, without losing any data. It's even possible that you _will_ change programs as you advance and gain more experience, maybe feeling that the tools that you started with don't offer everything you need, so you begin using something else which is a better fit. By the way, several MUAs allow you to use an external editor, so if you say: I like the mailer, how it displays discussion threads and manages mailboxes, I just don't like its message editor - then you can simply use an external editor. Best of both worlds. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "fre ebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 23:24:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A13633641F for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 23:24:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dMLq273fz4GfV for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 23:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MiJdI-1j4v753tFm-00fRvs; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:24:46 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:24:44 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605012444.05e0378a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zWk5m5//VRNT3cc/ypry6jQ92Js7Ctgqqz56z7BGq0jJSrAoVsD V72tLIX8bbs2iGuhS6Y6CSz4Kz8ADevJzgppBYiCTgUFZ9KY8ySfDE3Vp5yyFVTQl9i6fkH aUvzc5Dpusfdo1uN145kbdkJGUdgPkhqyDBOutfVFXU1fREZ5DZtIICyHpSZu20O16dbTww ZIOUHv+Mnz5bUIZPy8JnQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Mgiog0/s9lg=:2GivpLlZtNYsLWZmmIzmzt EmiaAWTwtNLzSvmewbe7guNMebRs4pSzuDnJ3rlkSsqCqy9wp/dLX4lSp51nlnFfSYn6MqSfK qV4rBG5I4ossj8zBavY5QAuuyXByTf5Z9Jv7NTqzNvgc0EDh9qkOtxQlZ0HlGyKM+1e3RHKQR ZCl97n2DkRTp67KMuuZc/KsBKt9W/VgbA8VHDnk0Eu3hNHQ1bnEqhWN3T7WKwWc1qzS12asLQ KVg6WLSgsrAiXNZdV+mhhiQwPliIA5jj9js07m1Q5bkY1fhtUNhvDZJMb8bW/jt2cRTemXLcV x/2l9itoQgmVoNu+ebHLUlYF8j+SfM1usexgxUcgynG4qPI1dO3ZKmgVWRgjzR7x27+I3bvRj sON5287TPeuQB57/PRoZJIhEfMePhJN8pymDp90z/t1GwPeEvbzTjCPFDzvJE6whQxq0bAAps +2/Yw2mV7dijQdMJM8jYM1YbbQy05AS5Go1Pxdtbd6oUAbWqXyc87nH3WK2YQw97Rn00VMgO3 BYqPI8S8hlV7VjEb6oLmRpNqnXxpTWzaPOHWmm0OFpUEMbRXZxObqis1n0ZwNV5EP8KC/VmEJ lPfBWEM1w5PuTctGSDAZ96meXO47k50Ta+HkseGPsyjT4LHn24Ph5Z0/MQEWxiaPM7K06aMlJ QCIGOweMa4niiAx4s869TZdU3gk842qFOpHcFuhNvpKfynPftKqRwWpnmRK9xq+qLNgWiBKxN D3GMwbzSS4Hl2ucLtY1P+efCVGtTJ/tgQN6tTqYaNOyO93ZFECneDUT+s8CJYYXMKOJ1CQznu QMzgzFlzKOabtuhhg9y7TaoX9tTxNDeDyoG0GtynRzhMdcfA/Onfg5NzXDJUWKhF5YJZ6KfBB bjfswFRK9kEn0bggEmnw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dMLq273fz4GfV X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.39 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.75)[-0.746]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.06)[0.065]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.33)[-0.327]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:24:52 -0000 Sidenote first: I have reformatted your reply. It has, for a reason I can not understand, the quoting characters "> " only for the first line, but not on the subsequent ones, and the lines have an empty line in between. There is no header stating who you are quoting. Your lines do not conform to the "maximum line length" suggestion, but that's also not a problem as normal MUAs can deal with this just fine. I have also removed the remaining distorted message where all line breaks and spaces seem to have vanished... On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 16:47:54 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > > If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and > > see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple > > mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. You can even > > use Thunderbird and alpine side by side, with Maildir local storage, > > connecting to an IMAP account - all this is possible and does not > > require complicated configurations. > > That's basically what I had wanted to do since I couldn't figure > postfix out withal the mail components. You don't need to run your own postfix installation for that; use can use the one that "hotmail.com" is providing - they have an IMAP interface. > What I am aspiring for is to set up all my three email addresses > in a local mailbox like mbox or whatever. I suggest using MailDir (derived from MH) which is the standard today. THunderbird and many others use it. As you can configure the path to local mailboxes, you can use them with several programs in parallel. > I still don't quite understand the components. It seems as though > with an mua you can set this up. Thunderbird is pretty easy to set up and configure properly. It can connect to IMAP accounts without any further tools, and it can cache messages in local mailboxes in MailDir format. > So then what is fetchmail and imap programs like dovecot for if > an MUA works for this. The MUA is the _user's_ side of the whole thing - the program the user interacts with to read, write, and sort messages. In your case, it's the K-9 app on your Android phone. The fetchmail program obtains messages from your account using POP3 or IMAP and stores them in a local mailbox. It's a tool to "get your messages". For example, I use fetchmail to get my messages from my account and have them in local mailboxes. It's used to receive messages. I need something else to send messages - this is done by my MUA. (It incorporates new messages from the local mailbox filled by fetchmail.) But as I said, this is not needed (!), and maybe not even desired given the convenience and flexibility of IMAP (often built into the MUA). And dovecot is the counterpart for tools like fetchmail: it runs on the server fetchmail connects to. You have a typical client-server-setting here. In relation to mailing, you can make yourself familiar with the different acronyms, their meaning, program examples, and what they do ("sends message to an incoming server", "puts message into a user's mailbox on the server", and so on). > Or can I only poll mail to a local mailbox in my directory tree > somewhere with MTA? With a MUA (NB: U!) like Thunderbird or alpine, this is done automatically when you have set up your account connection as IMAP and poll for new messages. You don't need to manually involve a MTA such as postfix here. The MTA is responsible for sending your message to the desired recipient. Mail handling involves a few more agents, I know, but I wanted to simplify this a bit, and I didn't even talk about spam filters, virus scanners, signing, certificates, trust and all the other things... ;-) You can find more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_agent_(infrastructure) The different components are covered here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_user_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_submission_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_transfer_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_delivery_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_retrieval_agent Covered agents cannot be detected. ;-) What you should get running first is a MUA. Everything else is already handled by your provider "hotmail.com". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 4 23:35:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286FD33665F for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 23:35:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dMZl4vSpz4Hnm for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 23:35:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mo7if-1jABrr21ql-00pc85; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:35:08 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:35:07 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Joe A." Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605013507.c223f881.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200604215152.GA81674@ghostyhead.chthonixia.net> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604215152.GA81674@ghostyhead.chthonixia.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xqRt6UIbydv3X3ZmDJLdEI+SjN86PGARjyzr8H5uu2v81NFW7uJ V2NrsZKrmh9vfDCpKzFZ5SA75asL6ZzX8g6Z2grNEUxdlg6pQ8xLuCBLC+CnDD1yvCmIuzx ncNOUb0tg5Oayw5Rkk+3EwF9Da47iH4uDZraFVHpjKh6RyfvtiyIcfS0Wmt6AnZRd62/X4m B2lUArXMfvz3aGhXDmr7A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:itG9v0BbfUU=:gBzoUJ0lKbi8+CG/aEy71P ny/pvSaHH5s0j9pr7BohuIYOzlc+cx4udvVn8lijfBdDqlBTno2tbo11m8eOBeb1fEKk5Bcen +ZjfRKsr+es+qYad1cVGbovh5QcqwrY51mAlNMTxUUGq+iIPn4Jv5a+meeYO8530Kej6wgsfl ZgGJyN+r1aCJ1HYp534Gju4J3OlwPr6yM5ZvSHNGEwpIU2MxJJ+WbhIOlHKxrPwnfKXlw279T Y+lFBcEb/N8eVyhSWwS6o+hhWLGT78lOzHQin7/MWTduEmje4HKQPmZlajZhNOXL9nU/z/h4l jNcsuU7vLS4x+IjPzY3UoH41Msv8Qlr6e8F1IgneWWicqEF30aqDjP4wVxOc4eKRmYJmg+UFm 2znpfhHcPY8/Aym6JuVgmQtT25/QrYWWH+BNXdWIiELBGABe00rPxeY6AWl/yG3YFaQTRGaiK HNs043dMMOy6Kw4mDjKcNJMRejsLUwMQIPAC7EutzwG3F+P5xK8avgPahNQ+F2shD7MLaNoha +Dk8bhNv9XM6CJznGMHoP/BonwO0+rpG38j9990ErE6qEXQ5qE2J3YTVUS1NZkBeQP4qvoBE9 nTC9mIAJqze2hei12/AqtjAZO80w5HO4okWomD13j25BCPTArCqbScUp/AmSB75onwWAXzyVK niDMIQH+uPBxlPQkQJd0QpaXY/bEJ+aGSRT6JYmoY6Rp7bkJygZNH6+wU1MwOGwUyAaXAe1Ii 5lJRRxkCzMjnpunNV51kV4Qy+cYBPNxayhzKhWPqzqn2QaUKH0XoB5SgArBWd7CEfCRkW9e56 Y90tllMmswbmijRngy+edx9i94DQQ7NkyW+gw88hzGgbDeAon8zAi0T/DwstBbzwpKl+gwZ X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dMZl4vSpz4Hnm X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.11 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.700]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.162]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.75)[-0.749]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:35:13 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:51:52 -0400, Joe A. wrote: > 4) Avoid vi. Manoj Rao: Emacs as Email Client - Part I http://www.mycpu.org/read-email-in-emacs/ ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=mSn+OYfz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.18.75 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.76 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[11]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.18.75:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.75)[-0.753]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.18.75:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:08:04 -0000 >I suggest using MailDir (derived from MH) which is the standard today. THunderbird and many others use it. As you can configure the path to local mailboxes, you can use them with several programs in parallel. I can configure thunderbird to cache mail in Maildir? Never heard of Maildir though. My original plan was to have fetchmail and postfix and imap program configured to work with mbox. mbox is just default MUA though and I can replace it with thunderbird which is MUA also. But if I want to use command line MUA like mutt do I still not need these programs to poll mail? What is the difference between cacheing mail in Maildir vs using mutt and polling mail however it is that you do so? Thanks for the formatting of the message. To explain why my messages are formatted this way, I'm trying to copy the format of these messages by adding > wherever there is a new paragraph and indentation. At first I thought this was all that proper bottom posting was. Now I see that most MUA 's have automatic formating. I'll check it out and see if I can enable these settings if they are not already. > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 5:24 PM, Polytropon wrote: > > > Sidenote first: I have reformatted your reply. It has, for a reason I can not understand, the quoting characters "> " only for the first line, but not on the subsequent ones, and the lines have an empty line in between. There is no header stating who you are quoting. Your lines do not conform to the "maximum line length" suggestion, but that's also not a problem as normal MUAs can deal with this just fine. I have also removed the remaining distorted message where all line breaks and spaces seem to have vanished... On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 16:47:54 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > > If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and > > see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple > > mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. You can even > > use Thunderbird and alpine side by side, with Maildir local storage, > > connecting to an IMAP account - all this is possible and does not > > require complicated configurations. > > That's basically what I had wanted to do since I couldn't figure > postfix out withal the mail components. You don't need to run your own postfix installation for that; use can use the one that "hotmail.com" is providing - they have an IMAP interface. > What I am aspiring for is to set up all my three email addresses > in a local mailbox like mbox or whatever. I suggest using MailDir (derived from MH) which is the standard today. THunderbird and many others use it. As you can configure the path to local mailboxes, you can use them with several programs in parallel. > I still don't quite understand the components. It seems as though > with an mua you can set this up. Thunderbird is pretty easy to set up and configure properly. It can connect to IMAP accounts without any further tools, and it can cache messages in local mailboxes in MailDir format. > So then what is fetchmail and imap programs like dovecot for if > an MUA works for this. The MUA is the _user's_ s ide of the whole thing - the program the user interacts with to read, write, and sort messages. In your case, it's the K-9 app on your Android phone. The fetchmail program obtains messages from your account using POP3 or IMAP and stores them in a local mailbox. It's a tool to "get your messages". For example, I use fetchmail to get my messages from my account and have them in local mailboxes. It's used to receive messages. I need something else to send messages - this is done by my MUA. (It incorporates new messages from the local mailbox filled by fetchmail.) But as I said, this is not needed (!), and maybe not even desired given the convenience and flexibility of IMAP (often built into the MUA). And dovecot is the counterpart for tools like fetchmail: it runs on the server fetchmail connects to. You have a typical client-server-setting here. In relation to mailing, you can make yourself familiar with the different acronyms, their meaning, program examples, and what they do ("sends message to an incoming server", "puts message into a user's mailbox on the server", and so on). > Or can I only poll mail to a local mailbox in my directory tree > somewhere with MTA? With a MUA (NB: U!) like Thunderbird or alpine, this is done automatically when you have set up your account connection as IMAP and poll for new messages. You don't need to manually involve a MTA such as postfix here. The MTA is responsible for sending your message to the desired recipient. Mail handling involves a few more agents, I know, but I wanted to simplify this a bit, and I didn't even talk about spam filters, virus scanners, signing, certificates, trust and all the other things... ;-) You can find more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_agent_(infrastructure) The different components are covered here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_user_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_submission_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_transfer_agent https://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Mail_delivery_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_retrieval_agent Covered agents cannot be detected. ;-) What you should get running first is a MUA. Everything else is already handled by your provider "hotmail.com". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:08:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF15337909 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:08:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x142.google.com (mail-lf1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dNJh0tJzz4MDq for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:08:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x142.google.com with SMTP id d7so4686621lfi.12 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 17:08:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=uLuycsVnhewcyhVsgMIyG0GZb3TKAci0bNXXyGLEIJA=; b=mAQMK20jq+YeGt1GE84ff+IVTgmHpL00NyUqBFFOTKx9YyzISaFMQaV0OWOry6IIWi IkAsQr80pUwmz5pDOr1D8sLvKj9hlvHUu4IMYp9IjqctVB5GjCCqAY6D2bGSX42pXK0L zSLJNNfY6WvoY4w+vZP5GN9pIguOJQdZt1AypfADf9IVGhythjDOyNM6yptDaPEy2PdU LzIHL5/TJH9gGO5X8cvQ0H6ZNqCG1/iyuxRma/QQbMi5W3V7p45SIkt9huGqBDimxS5A 6CvBJyueWFfd8Gf547iV7U1g+k10BFhRtdRt7O0FzYtUlmMn1pp7Pmt8uSzdt9oFnN+G 368A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uLuycsVnhewcyhVsgMIyG0GZb3TKAci0bNXXyGLEIJA=; b=TkufOpDiROTiNSxD18NorzjprWsVmDecY0Su0LYXVsUDKrOwpgEk/O1jPJ+4SWw1SG mGFV+ZM0GAihaFHUfqNPlsv/hJ0pNP74pmygxBw0ayjxicbsxwG/vzmPbYMUCg5QjgPk xoTIhWN4NgVYV5rcE7/coGh9+8BBpY3v6XdXPL0xwGnhHQK9I1MxZBxPGQIPvbi4AeXO n2148yS5hJymM0zKJRn54Mp51HyFe3WJfEPT6+asZqtMo9Frhfz9fCz4jVnaDpL4aY6v cESjEFqkrvwr7DX+HtOZ5LgWcDaSpu01LbiXg0/DPAjjiJXbyu/v5+jBHdEWOIxTBN/Q yD4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324syPrKjm8Epci9HPudW7y3FSG5+p2K3993QFicHLI+6UjVHws THLeHUVyDxdc35J7Qa6l+eGzcYjYcWm+88cmVWY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyZiqlCOD2ZNsmMTQ9SsWSczX+6iDlK21ew9EQQurvaiHivgsE0dRSEEH/moVH2dxDtQUEeAHQ0BwZxSJv0GRQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5597:: with SMTP id v23mr3804127lfg.42.1591315682235; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 17:08:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dNJh0tJzz4MDq X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=mAQMK20j; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.37 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.043]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.65)[0.650]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.977]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::142:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:08:04 -0000 On 6/4/20, Brandon helsley wrote: >> Actually, besides being THE go-to reference on C, it's the >> best-written C book out there and the most elegant presentation of the >> basic concepts. I have a bunch. While the bits and pieces AROUND C >> have evolved, C itself really hasn't. I prefer the K&R braces over >> GNU, myself, even though most of the 'NIX world is tilting towards the >> GNU landslide. >>Thank you for interspersing your comments as I asked, Brandon. You >> have shown the whole Project that you can learn and WILCO without >> complaint! Good coder, GOOD! :D > I'm doing the indentation myself. Does your mailer do the indentation for > you or do you do it yourself? Ouch! I was afraid of that. I use GMail in my browser (FF or Chromium on Ubuntu, in this case), and it converts any non-ASCII text as best it can. If recruiters send me a bulleted list of job description items, it leaves the bullet character but puts it inside of the '>' that GMail uses for indenting comments. I am going to make a suggestion here, which may make you think SOMEBODY is truly far off the reservation called 'nice people'. If your MUA is Outlook, get into its settings and attempt to turn off HTML formatting for both incoming and outgoing e-mails. I never bought Outlook for my 'doze box so I can't tell you exactly how to do it. If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also have such setting switches. If you can actually get MS to accept this, you might not want to leave it that way as HTML e-mails are definitely more fun to look at than raw text. Do it as a learning experiment. What I'd suggest that you do is to go to gmail.com and create brandon.helsey@gmail.com and subscribe that address to your open-source mailing list collection. The GMail client can be accessed from any (lynx, anyone? Haven't tested THAT one :) ) web browser, so you can use this on your FreeBSD machine or even a public library computer. The downside to GMail is that it is more difficult to categorize e-mails, but IIRC it can be done. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:18:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B529338336 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:18:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dNY92N10z4PCR for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:18:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:18:46 -0700 Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:18:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dNY92N10z4PCR X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.34 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.34)[0.335]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.56)[0.562]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.54)[0.540]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:18:54 -0000 I wrote: >> The canonical C book is: >> https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html On 2020-06-04 14:02, Brandon helsley wrote: > The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. > Wouldn't it be better to use a newer study book? > Should I look for something newer? AFAIK C has not changed (?) and K&R 2e is still the standard text: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language Learning a new subject on your own from just a textbook can be tough. You might want to join a C programming language community. I think you will find that most C programmers own K&R 2e. David p.s. Whatever e-mail client you are using, it is making a mess of your replies. Please configure it correctly or use a better e-mail client. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:22:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298933383FC for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:22:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dNcn72Mqz4Pdw for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:22:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id c21so4712020lfb.3 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=42E085RJEvBCvZ7sRPRaaz8rjnBVuBu34JSKXiE9soU=; b=Bt7dZLMfR4EQnqLI2ojETPfEajOPyG2gNCXZlZUHm/jh069WIcjxWR+8KzqMG7KS1q iU2Lc8YQtBqtlZ+Ta6zQuYfvujX59b/zXCYD29W2At5Z4uCGMF8v5t+4F89NuC8rsAZ6 UedUTzSAaKMNbeCj8vR1tD6lCAMyiXvcDPpLg3BVMiBBkYn9aLAxVL+LJxzws2Cu4lpQ yf8WKyJEpGdjz4evKmm2B7SpL/9Vt2J8Xhylq7vxBQHjDnRxj6VA5P3gs5cDYamxa0ZB PswI3hgT0J/fHDb5W3TSIS7L/S70z7VUzcGP9KOs1aXRUrImfClwbXfpuMrlXCp/EZ1q C31g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=42E085RJEvBCvZ7sRPRaaz8rjnBVuBu34JSKXiE9soU=; b=LNcPHlTh3XzX3ujEI4AjYV6yBAdpoWPXz0LPKAY8jbxVC2+doeQG6Zr/Z/lIwzXOrn +d+6nO1k2ky8cxWBTGMOD8A9Dlo6gRrBTqj0kJfnfxX/buInqYlZlABjI12YzB7K9fom Lrdoc9HBjqvJ9t8aRlzjAyJgGWt8OSeVY0vIJOQ25ZwKG+UawHwWO09dkFQ1lVa4tN8+ AzAQQ8O5lMyN2atkgqoSLRNZyDvU6Tkf5Zr7EX0KrkcmAuWi288/s14B4LkOfewW3Psu aJB95XxG5Y4o2cMuHy5KU1Pp+Dy+sAiI0vJQwyOv/IHQsO0nciMN3zhVaTfV554p4NAV qXlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Uy0jPrQ3Ubd4tBpvsjnDq5W5rSQWZTr/gHPnDNxeiIuiTljCW ILL7LrDwu2liXbkkgzg9zDcJq6gZNV3reqVig2ToCBDw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyWRbuPPdRRKcEJQLuan+nzjR7HOeWjvVi9Sq5DgLfCZeki33k4x7g42cWWttyuqo5yfJ4Y/8sIjo6TypEcCqE= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5597:: with SMTP id v23mr3827930lfg.42.1591316519648; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:21:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Brandon helsley Cc: Polytropon , freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dNcn72Mqz4Pdw X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Bt7dZLMf; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::132 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.32 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.691]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.972]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::132:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:22:03 -0000 On 6/4/20, Brandon helsley wrote: > [snip] > Thanks for the formatting of the message. To explain why my messages are > formatted this way, I'm trying to copy the format of these messages by > adding > wherever there is a new paragraph and indentation. At first I > thought this was all that proper bottom posting was. Now I see that most MUA > 's have automatic formating. I'll check it out and see if I can enable these > settings if they are not already. > Good for you, Brandon! I can see that you are getting a much better feel for what system-level debugging is. Code debugging is usually much simpler because you don't have to remember meta-information about each 'thing' you are dealing with until you get to a much higher level. i. e. mutt usage: console-only format: ASCII outlook usage: GUI only format: html ... As a sophisticated coder, you will end up dealing with multi-level knowledge constructs as a matter of course. When you start doing this with your girlfriends, it'll really get you in trouble... -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:35:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B096B338959 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:35:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dNvx6lngz4RCT for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:35:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MVNEv-1jZgTP0Wj1-00SMeN; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:35:04 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:35:03 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605023503.50311b56.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wbWqZR9fMFUkV3JQO30xVzgMN40DmkHsNNsmTLhApd5s8bfMWha +QvneNi9I139uTBKir7CLD2Lps/QwVnVZtdKkiqVazsifAGFEAfKSJ8DCO0EKeGY4a+WMEm rbfSYAzrxJ/pjrgJGnxmJ3iwF7sGR6JYpP+fxJKGxxQAR+7854WIpWV1gyiYvHCcHynDzex Md+ssZEnAmzUkzYjCrNRA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:rjQqD4geJ1s=:oUc9eOsmLEPnBKWTX6i4el P4/BDfCcZSO9Uj8+yLahLgZ67xwOxb18vHWCsyyWrTIT6NrBJl2Ks+LyyVm/EdjK7yrXMFgO2 WVVxrKl00qZrpg1/S5q/pvwwvaWfuEvlOi6Qn7dLGf53QZmqVmds8ahJ9pZiTbvzw4/DTLk9M hA60h4ONuAIE8F4kdifO7pZ9l5t4J34s/WVvxAYMPXN41njbCmsmNHfuHZrgSK9FOvk6L3nek 1bnXQCz9e+cvUjB+8xqa0T1LvlGWhJtD9eiAIez5LrVxlpV9dRDqldhuG7QaBBz67PIZX1KfX M4vIE2DVsBb6iV6ciQrXppYhitKh9+Kl2XJJe1clLwp6Re9vjUvPxxA8JSPI46KK26R5u+mFl mh28Urz7nS1FJS0Mg3RES7i7keUMLhiCA4zD3TKN6q/sUAeGH7p3EHefOmXu5VEQn6Iu2a7sP 9pcVlUDfie3ppeaiyPWfGzSf8j++5nRPKSPgAoeBtvCrAYSyIqjfZuYTyJtX8Jw6h+4/rO0QC YctO3Nmq91bp8TDPUQ8XSXoEbOt42KBhooS1klzoSQ3twVUemrOJrTYTa8zpzu1e2SBzNlRhE OU7V8c1YV3ebofBQ6murKV9oM7NEYg8Cu6UlsdVo0Mf+UqrJq7RHJ095Lj1JYboUOnbZWffJX 5Mg+ZyBrKYamwmEgkX8KMzD5FOcIkCOIWd++ADv6JnACFG/EjxAHQTofxaL/Jm5+Bkg4FAv5W 4i2vJvqG7gWvqFM5UHZ8pLCNu2jLMKDMsX3MV3IWoaWrGiNOftDecFGv4OhOoZ7BmvogW6k2e 162/0U9EMxg+83IhzscY6kdlSo/zH/x9ZOYIgzB3SknN8tChW+PgU4Kp0wpaxE4S2bBqUiTmX VS0VsYzg2QvpQGcTBMaA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dNvx6lngz4RCT X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.97 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.36)[-0.355]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.75)[-0.745]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.33)[-0.334]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:35:11 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:07:57 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > I can configure thunderbird to cache mail in Maildir? I think it's the default already. Or did it use mbox? At the moment, I have no reference system at hand to check; I just know that Sylpheed uses MailDir locally. > Never heard of Maildir though. It's one of the two standard mail storage formats in use today. Here is a short and simplified comparison: mbox format: a message is - a portion of a file a mailbox is - a file an account is - a directory with files Example: ~/mail/inbox is a file that contains all messages received so far. MailDir format: a message is - a file a mailbox is - a directory with files an account is - a directory with directories Example: ~/mail/draft/4 is a file contains the 4th message template. Both have advantages and disadvantages. To the MUA, it doesn't actually matter - the visual representation is the same. You can find more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir > My original plan was to have fetchmail and postfix and imap > program configured to work with mbox. mbox is just default > MUA though and I can replace it with thunderbird which is > MUA also. No, bmox is not a MUA, it's a concept of storing email messages (see above). However, Thunderbird can import from and export to mbox format, so there is compatibility. Try to get a better understanding of "what is what" and "what does what": fetchmail reads messages via POP3 or IMAP from your account, provided by and hosted at, say, "hotmail.com"; postfix is a mail server to route and deliver mails. Here you can find a nice summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetchmail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postfix_(software) > But if I want to use command line MUA like mutt do I still not > need these programs to poll mail? No, mutt has this already built in: it supports both mbox and Maildir, and it can access IMAP accounts without additional software. So you don't need anything else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutt_(email_client) > What is the difference between cacheing mail in Maildir vs using > mutt and polling mail however it is that you do so? Caching messages is optional, but useful: You can have a local copy of your messages (received and sent ones, templates and so on) without requiring an Internet connection - you only need it when you (a) receive new messages and (b) send out messages; for reading and editing, you can use the locally cached files. This is the exact opposite of, for example, a typical web mailer where you _always_ need an Internet connection _and_ it has to run the web browser. The idea if IMAP is that you can store your messages on the server, in your example, provided by "hotmail.com", and you can use your local installation to "remotely manipulate them". So even if you wipe your hard disk, your messages will still be on the server, and their attribues (read, not read) are also there. The IMAP-based MUA is just an interface to the IMAP server that handles your messages and which also takes care of when you send out messages, or messages are sent to you - nothing you need to do. In the past, before IMAP, it was common to read messages from the server and delete them from the server (!), often due to size limitations, using POP3. So your mailboxes would grow on your local machine, and you had to backup them. Note that fetchmail does support both IMAP and SMTP, and it can be used to "copy messages" (download, mark as read), and "move messages" (download, delete from server). > Thanks for the formatting of the message. To explain why my > messages are formatted this way, I'm trying to copy the > format of these messages by adding > wherever there is a > new paragraph and indentation. This is what your MUA should do. It's important that paragraphs, consisting of several lines, need a "> " (note the space!) for every line. This is nothing you should do manually. When you select "reply" in any halfway decent MUA, you get a composer window, with the original message prefixed with some hind of header ("On so and so, that person wrote:"), and a "> " infront of every line. A good MUA removes existing signatures after the "-- " delimiter (also note the space!), but it's no big deal to remove it yourself. Have a look at the messages in this thread so far to see the desired "design". ;-) > At first I thought this was all that proper bottom posting was. > Now I see that most MUA 's have automatic formating. I'll check > it out and see if I can enable these settings if they are not > already. Yes, definitely check your MUA's setting, maybe it's possible to configure it properly. Additionally, as you already have a FreeBSD machine, why not install mutt, setup your IMAP access credentials, and use that instead? It will be much easier. In general, bottom posting means: 1. Quote message parts properly that you reply to. 2. Remove anything you don't need. 3. Make sure it's easy to read: use newlines and indentation as needed. Again, the mailing list archives provide good examples of how this should be done. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:39:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5538338E13 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:39:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dP0t0cwvz4RWh for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1591317565; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=MOd303B8KTTFR/fkYQn43BrEGv4=; b=NBQMpEvyVtvFYvRJkTbWeL17Lqgf1yCOv9szBW9BRHyFVsvMmc7kyvsoMv7lIvgA 85skNXataaDMOEuC/0NTFSthcv2YR9DSI0mmgvMM5w1VY2yLXLfiYN8tcv/eT23O 6pFC4EDlvLAOmNuYeOGdXweP5bLDfmeDqG3S6SfK3zMTx6+Ejn1ENzZFnwD9022G WGmQoY23sU2GKxI5aAxifVTJuI8Z/Tsaxc0lIC8kIpEQlmCx2sat0MCiyVuEU09e ivieLt5jeBIz0XcrPX8sZaqDLhYoQd3dcVRmC0fhs+Ydj6oRa3LjLSEEpuWXItHX /TwqHUUlPdgITCl65HTIDQ==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J+PUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=I_pJVNfUAAAA:8 a=PV3OqQhFa7qOESyYC4UA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=8BwfwnVdkBoA:10 a=SZb0XxHP0RMA:10 a=5O9yXRr5NZMA:10 a=4MG-vaflLjYgDIlR5Oqe:22 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:47265] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id C3/13-42436-C3499DE5; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:39:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:39:24 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: David Christensen Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills In-Reply-To: <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dP0t0cwvz4RWh X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=NBQMpEvy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.69 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.036]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.535]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:39:27 -0000 David Christensen writes: > >> The canonical C book is: > > >> https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html > > On 2020-06-04 14:02, Brandon helsley wrote: > > > The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. > > Wouldn't it be better to use a newer study book? > > Should I look for something newer? > > AFAIK C has not changed (?) This is not the case; the latest revision of which I am aware is the 2018 Standard (which is the 2011 Standard with bug fixes). > and K&R 2e is still the standard text: There's a reason this is still _the_ "Start here." book. Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:43:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D10338AF1 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:43:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dP5g6RzHz4S3l for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:43:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MYN3E-1jURfi0pF4-00VTOn; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:43:32 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:43:31 +0200 From: Polytropon To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: Brandon helsley , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fOF6un3b+ukF2e/d7bcitbH66NHnDvuWSnFq9q0EZceZYp+IXc6 K4yB42g2uMExBTpEp4Wd4XdQRKdd8HqjwD72SAxMoC2QYjnNEYjMO4CJo0y78B4T4d20s9r nfD39SkixIrjfWyWvGTh8SpNPjBmb8WaYXK3xW9blnf7UPrysLsYu2Rpdg1B/Y9lhEJQzRO /YXxv4xna0zd8v6zE1Qdg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ak8HVukLUBs=:oVNYInRwpvFBW8GHDqOEVo U7fk+E33e19zPz6mhSUUDAjhO73WO73HfppMlYlg2yn8KOA4Qt1uCEpAWTWCBmWInV/03Ezwc +lVPhWotQW38Rg5BPOQXVytgOfIn22f31SO5loLa2aLWrd1Dy4OJThyRGwIYc/yDG4jYIDuhe 05pgFn0b8dn2j993XyPOBuwMhrNNPC1m/eEehwJXCzZ1IgLAis/05elRNvwR5qCk5HE2HiBiw bGcday8FIM+keuC94DxyVlUMV21AKEhzDzQJaqj2CnhngNukptIWhRlj5eMFw4oPmDpNanEz4 Ok7m0L6l2BHr2H8Iba+dZFKfuYubR1T6Uq2E8k9S+4bSS4InhBQ1p7XvNxu3xBCdICdMout0g l3FthHUseapV7oqkoqz8kVkGrxp2C67h506as0pPAPT3pInZA4VO9jccSi5mVouCG9nfDEEH/ O6efFd5xoND7JpKgCLcrseI6Xz55z3m+Et6tIEyy5INL0PM8kkVTiMKQxAzXTPeW9OT0WHxdx ok2rZbHdlEj3mpH4YHcWLHKVZho2Qm+hRvhI7NkXgVaHYsCoObvpIb/zwFv7UP5FxhqK2azts o7WhBaBdBGHcs13+wQBA2Y30/p0SQ6xL0pLQJlW8fa7BF+W4OGPemeCgme7stJMsjgeZ16qOh pRHDsI30FN+VJMvolxWF0p8fdMt0B2rwKWF8J/33GI++EeKmakHi1avEHLAbS2iFwj/wSk80r pydmhoDcbPRVm8XaTx59T8Ws1MxHauO20GMi3CJNwT3A8EJOBpfT7b9DHlpBIpprIfKMBibLu OMfFaDHm/bY9gprB/IcnkziMpbAzd+2afxcymNUTqCAmf6WmQRVIYNkfTvGAPVDoROMpJNm X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dP5g6RzHz4S3l X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.67 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.12)[-0.124]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.929]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.68)[-0.679]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:43:36 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also have > such setting switches. Emailing on a smartphone is a terrible experience. Real people use a real computer for real stuff. :-) > What I'd suggest that you do is to go to gmail.com and create > brandon.helsey@gmail.com and subscribe that address to your > open-source mailing list collection. The GMail client can be accessed > from any (lynx, anyone? Haven't tested THAT one :) ) web browser, so > you can use this on your FreeBSD machine or even a public library > computer. Which, from a security point of view, is one of the worst things you can do. But as there already is a FreeBSD system with X, all that's needed is the installation of a decent MUA, and there are plenty of them available: Thunderbird, Sylpheed, alpine, mutt, just to name a few without judging. Sure, you need to do a few settings, but unlike what you have on smartphones, you actually _can_ do this, if the defaults are not reasonable. This is an O(1) thing: You make those settings _once_. > The downside to GMail is that it is more difficult to categorize > e-mails, but IIRC it can be done. In my opinion, it's just added complexity to something as simple as email. Adding Google's Gmail to the mix does not lead to any benefits, I'd say. Probably "hotmail.com" already offers some web mailer that could be used. But as there is IMAP confirmed, why not use that with a normal mailing program on a real computer? Anything is better than trying to do this on a smartphone, without real success... :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:54:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA7633942C for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:54:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPL45WhBz4TSL for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:54:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id x22so4758540lfd.4 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 17:54:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=IZyYnXhGMT8gsvipDisNucLc0LST7y5oFn9ml/igIlk=; b=PG4IEcFmc5CakhgsuGZOe1TWG87VK6uVXp65+UWnOXcSEY/PFV6oRk4wchtqbj2Y+H QLx+z1qNFlzB3X+sqmOC2RiHAGGPmrGsjpbbE2ENdYZwEPgel2dXQLwDUrT/NdDIOGFe qyLBsa+JoxBGc3cEPDv2y7CeGmXJqwbCzXFqglaWF6pb+S6FA/dUh9agM6+gYxbeNsF5 O/Sfcaz8H4sb8I7I0zv0K0PK0I4+1wUfxuhRuRLPIL38d3+ev4dPvJkrMc+PV6Kf2aDe Tvaiy5CeRz2lAcM00QPdSzIllpsJZRIWdrCA1vSAwLyoeMkVvGhQaJDa87PgG5NxShbj Q4Sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IZyYnXhGMT8gsvipDisNucLc0LST7y5oFn9ml/igIlk=; b=T3oZAHBOqns2iqxNtkBot2+xk8l7oeYkSxI6trt8Dfe2bB0JeZo/hMSDxTZRixzK08 D9+sv0qjkBHpAHEUjvGfSCA8VLLVgzUjPIVYWt/OcHcoNFZfNz84er52pYdNHPD8nVI+ e7k6voptIGyAgtAiVqrXRZP3Gl34MCCbmbmbdcEI2N+cJuz0e2xRLpqyU/8djzqvKdRy hBLh22Up9PcLnFmS8s9qjLj4X9cFlayFhE376AVaCJolpe/YFnLF5YfTSGntgXxm0lu3 hJ9HC5I88GHKFTcqtLJSWQK+gbqWf5JxxUfuv2415YJCPMxogX5tKD/sygzjvdXIqVo+ NJbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310fn2jZ81gHIc4sJQBlWb91PXw74TjGwDCUpRWURVsH7JR1HMt SAZn6Pen7Z0Wq/iBgCJSLDzWFRg4+iVh1qPFpNs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGToKMo2i1dCGtltrMQLV5Ds+PQhaFM6lfuDpnFGJOQ5JPy3092izTu5UmNzo+SUQKIpiSHMxXybSdg/a+tqc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:2358:: with SMTP id j85mr3945607lfj.182.1591318456286; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 17:54:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:54:15 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Polytropon Cc: Brandon helsley , freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPL45WhBz4TSL X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PG4IEcFm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::134 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.93 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.904]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.039]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:54:23 -0000 On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also have >> such setting switches. > > Emailing on a smartphone is a terrible experience. Real people > use a real computer for real stuff. :-) I'm busily re-designing smartphones in my 'spare' cycles because they barely fit my needs for a _phone_! >> What I'd suggest that you do is to go to gmail.com and create >> brandon.helsey@gmail.com and subscribe that address to your >> open-source mailing list collection. The GMail client can be accessed >> from any (lynx, anyone? Haven't tested THAT one :) ) web browser, so >> you can use this on your FreeBSD machine or even a public library >> computer. > > Which, from a security point of view, is one of the worst things Point taken.As you can see, 'easy' has overtaken 'secure' for me for some time. As yet, my GMail hasn't been hacked and it does a pretty good job of stomping spam, especially from actual live politicians. ;-) > you can do. But as there already is a FreeBSD system with X, all > that's needed is the installation of a decent MUA, and there are > plenty of them available: Thunderbird, Sylpheed, alpine, mutt, just > to name a few without judging. Sure, you need to do a few settings, > but unlike what you have on smartphones, you actually _can_ do > this, if the defaults are not reasonable. This is an O(1) thing: > You make those settings _once_. Point, again. >> The downside to GMail is that it is more difficult to categorize >> e-mails, but IIRC it can be done. > > In my opinion, it's just added complexity to something as simple > as email. Adding Google's Gmail to the mix does not lead to any > benefits, I'd say. Probably "hotmail.com" already offers some > web mailer that could be used. But as there is IMAP confirmed, > why not use that with a normal mailing program on a real computer? > Anything is better than trying to do this on a smartphone, without > real success... :-) > Actually, I do like to have folders of e-mails that I stash, but that's a personal preference. It sounds like the MBox format can do that, so I'll make a transition myself in some near future. > > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 3.4 for me, if I recall, but I got sidetracked (!!!) for J O B requirements. Not that it matters, but I still have a binder full of actual FOSS CDROMs from Walnut Creek... -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:55:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37736339254 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:55:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPMs0Z5Qz4TWD for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:55:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:55:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <0af9b36a-f0f6-59fa-c9c3-3db42b9198d7@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:55:40 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPMs0Z5Qz4TWD X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.17 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.687]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.73)[0.729]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.85)[0.854]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:55:54 -0000 On 2020-06-04 17:39, Robert Huff wrote: > > David Christensen writes: > >> >> The canonical C book is: >> >> >> https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html >> AFAIK C has not changed (?) > > This is not the case; the latest revision of which I am aware is > the 2018 Standard (which is the 2011 Standard with bug fixes). Thanks for the clarification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language It looks like they have added stuff, but K&R 2e content is still valid. >> and K&R 2e is still the standard text: > > There's a reason this is still _the_ "Start here." book. STFW I found an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de2Hsvxaf8M David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:57:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C69D339570 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:57:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPPB4r12z4TWv for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.236.150]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MAORp-1jnuhA2tp5-00Bw3k; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:56:55 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:56:55 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Robert Huff Cc: David Christensen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:g4hhUFca6fiPwKYqkMMhSsTFiN8xEH9HzwizgGr5D3VjfioH7qA QR8dT75BnL293QffvQNvPLMk9/4gggv7g7V78h5Btdcmw0/C6NrQd5UyGygq8jIMGu+5qMx rKhTBhsp6W+LGtNxu7Vf/gaAsqO8RIsQ/zwKmGbKrcs6o1mOqMjUmmu+mlJiD73x7MVy/KM 2g2qCpUEyDJB1JYq1y76A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:TSWfLCJjxgw=:gh3ywMFaOW04gghkIcMFdQ 86HOktNjL0+ICrisGcVNbzyt8Tnv8iYCqps5eczBLIuOr4j2TuuTNamCJylO6hMuPm54afm3M Pgx7058iDoIi858jcV7YMSO8u0TlaaD5us9Op1QiHGJmq5r0bDPrp6uwGj/I0Tdgw0uWB8XDB xPe3CY+YrY3D2Iz4yluGS5WZf5iVfReFf/dxkQAzoHQXSfSKBXHCyctd9+1zYiM89+nCH+2FA U4L0ThpkxZgHmAWyZNlmwovKiwjwPWGMEsGQF8XQgKP/+SowWHqbaSwLC3oH7bkMQCORUczbZ reNva0Yj440YfZFmAYXi/Ez1YeHd8eEcCW8axl3dKReODl/Ap3N2jSOouvQKplWuhg4zv3RGJ 3dzTadgADg6nQ2GIFBtk00AEfACyIRVw8GO7gjJTO1Suue7fqq8Iwp6qoMkj4SpwCmpY2y8Yl 8oitMOrwaPLpHZnP6oce5l8eEjLONX5+dNeBDr2afh79q2Ke8ztaQV82oq08g6I2yGlKjs9i5 Mt6flr6+MXiC+4usLdZyl4vFaZPFnSvApmfviXEsiY9lhHIBD5PIw/rQYWBKL/AwWsiiYcvrZ hVpPf8ibW9ZxWx40uykOUEMdzsTppvEhTDUvXomm1inmu3mSjR8yVI862yhvF2pw4R4ftHDCp m7Ugv47iF7etpzj2yR4JxEJlvk1OXDmdQajzOSv9X3ExtDxmXuz1f9ywXoqECNR+47BLQQcLl hjciKEmUwqGPxII9RXydTjO+lM+52bOwSGl3d62DKKWuPAOK/3Mcl0LsbTrCk/bO3EzEH3hyB LPmPmCn2RdnMWM7KXaWfjsy2xQ9J44BwF0dym0wJoicTuI8CJJW4I45OrZs5IxhJHHO82Up X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPPB4r12z4TWv X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.64 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.193]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.236.150:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.844]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.72)[-0.721]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:57:03 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:39:24 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: > > David Christensen writes: > > > >> The canonical C book is: > > > > >> https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html > > > > On 2020-06-04 14:02, Brandon helsley wrote: > > > > > The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. > > > Wouldn't it be better to use a newer study book? > > > Should I look for something newer? > > > > AFAIK C has not changed (?) > > This is not the case; the latest revision of which I am aware is > the 2018 Standard (which is the 2011 Standard with bug fixes). > > > and K&R 2e is still the standard text: > > There's a reason this is still _the_ "Start here." book. It's also worth noting that C from different eras is present in the FreeBSD code base. While "man 9 style" is mostly followed, the capabilities of the evolving C standard can be different, and compiler options might force a specific standard, so assuming that "I pick the latest and it will always work everywhere with any compiler" is false. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 00:59:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A2F339651 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:59:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesleypeng@aol.com) Received: from sonic309-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic309-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.129.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPSR69K5z4V4x for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:59:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesleypeng@aol.com) X-YMail-OSG: YetOofMVM1lfSOf9s.CcO6oxvhZeUsllm2v9zuumAUBHOSpF_1SKGrum886iWiy mQlcobSz91g37Ir2rA.fCb1okSLpKImP03PPvx6HBUAxI59g06oerTv2B61lc7iM7tcbULKx7RIG 7SD1WJysr_bUi6pTXeXnPvRry7bcMZOHIo97jFpE_lYQY9VRap1k56xh06JtOvero3ge6YQlDGW8 RdvtVQESpN9vg7NwcdAznbB8We2dVMkR8562oZtleTDFwUhU4eQw.fYHxoiaSRka_A0CGxHy5lKQ vmzDvktkgQiOWd6cZN0k7_zAkhwlwAiSl69T1ZicLJHE7MW3kOLhp0MRj2Pej_FCH7QPV2_r_SwA ZfJlX3Uqq2z7KBeFX0HDO8n_uTvQQ_zDn8FcUyjiBLUl_WpxapSkW4g2A4h2EQ74tMBiR4oyHsEB LHgG9hQtsOOjqzAMea5Q6KlHQg.qqJiFAB3ua63Yib7E7nWIMw4MX_UHhCV5sViIYoRGUt6uGCi8 7DZL1ectc2lAM8QYqxfyfsJmSC8Ts6_eWPX6XROgBRUqXCKxrDIVuameHcu29zLTQUeUnY91fLSi 23FoD2CEAzjTBAG2ZzR44CL6nmIXHD0GUxN4_bgBkqia8qGMwI8Hevdj3l8l0dSsIRhfWkP.1VpU FMqinuNktskcb16OyUbVAxqMejGdG7g6lMVno.Nl0gEBGRdTMksWh6MqIV3WgeJpmtEfj96HKoVx 8f1lYX.QQzELa0LHfWXuyJ60PF8imDuIFsnwJKDm0cbsfPzH2d6uxHo4vYvh7SulJGqYy5VeNue2 X1uGONFX7ePe.w85tg3FIIRkUj9zYjkAgJcmdo5PtCeXY1na4h3tYhPrEEhWf2bgDKNi.oCGa6ux aX1Z.CpPsfN7QM9Jv_gudTws1LrvhBrwkQv6zWy5DpikGsvnNJldtaJ1Pi40CYnpymzA1iEEOK8u qU.E9Aq68GiIgkuJr7aj6Hgn4riI9ZOvcOQCX_XtSKzSwrFPqA_wd9lqIsA1OSxZxSj3YVjslkmE 4tOo7h8wcnZ4irVV136pY18EYIjJQFuSQoBFtpRi1rkzaDYboc1ts4AOo7jvE0qt9Xkm_NHr0o5k 8yiLFE.V0C4QKBPslu4LXmVEOPRpwdNSanJjrz3ZEkMD.14Fg5tlHCIoqqKmtk9Rq76lyYUx6ea3 4tJ.WKbi7FiagAyIIEQ.Mt7BB7TM3mlTKkARdkGdY2s2wMT9FHCIvMEk2ZE_2SL29K0KtP9u3ujW 2Ps3SykRB4rqQqskQ9RDIC9hfFsqnl4bTKvToR5M3_13DIXYEVFt2JGoyMICOakfpF4CyGG1BgM2 Qg3gV3VD73drAgYYlHBqXq0tVQSUXJC4MJesDDK202Q-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:59:50 +0000 Received: by smtp426.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f2324b972ab3a9ba9d221dc498d95db3; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:59:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Wesley Peng Message-ID: <4bcf5983-6cf9-5dc6-7a45-0fa22a32f591@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:59:41 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPSR69K5z4V4x X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aol.com:s=a2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[aol.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.034]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:74.6.128.0/21]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aol.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aol.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.6.129.125:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.76)[-0.760]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[aol.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26101, ipnet:74.6.128.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[74.6.129.125:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 00:59:53 -0000 Polytropon wrote: > It's also worth noting that C from different eras is present in > the FreeBSD code base. While "man 9 style" is mostly followed, > the capabilities of the evolving C standard can be different, > and compiler options might force a specific standard, so assuming > that "I pick the latest and it will always work everywhere with > any compiler" is false. May I ask if golang behaves well on freebsd world? I recently program with go and ruby on ubuntu linux, but I am looking for a alternative environment. regards. -- Wesley Peng wesleypeng@aol.com From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:09:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0FF339CDB for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:09:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPgb23Tcz4Wbg for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:09:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MEFrX-1jqfuV0WNJ-00ABWQ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:09:26 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:09:25 +0200 From: Polytropon To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: Brandon helsley , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:5Pdxak5PsgLsWIF0aewqvLSjZ/QVCgziQCDe8uqK30An1Egp2Su sTJutfjIf6EjVKfIc4S4LfT5Wb+ptHRE+cMlDt/KJhvAJsm7EKT8bQzJ5M9gLLN+/fSmiC8 7Cm6uqjgl5Wtti9PZH4kM5mMs3DJTSSV/8KIBatZ+IadO4wZcSfmIukr1H6bseNAshZ98nm Z5BkZV9LGoiVqLbF4Hb1A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:E/pPXXC2xRA=:fs6U5qK5CYFo1TVzG4Bbh7 2cG14q+nCKt5ID50VJTAcx+4cJlOPdL67VPr4/rUeDZh34dpZ/TSWb+DP4nc8+bf7ooA62xrc K3Hbp5PeQjxnLkjjqLYdSM8oBY6x5ZMVQSwax03fL/vzNFIXve8bwJGKyRiF7WHajWZbMCmlv V9jth1PO1kfgpaDERp8iNr5IJmvKWHsGh0CIlVW+4VKa71YdbwJLSY9uz/oTBvP0FUgKVikzw g91+07SETzsrtQpk1/QJSFOxDkyXuKrFip4eQHSCaFr6lozLvV1fdaRfdnuGWgzRfN1dySB+M qHydl6RGxUwJXUqcEYMvEOSDjO9LxA3aSNTnhjB4OmWcXnAqMpPRZH/z7bKYVCTtZyhFgcbws I6TN1icCFbbMI0SSOpecnIQJfw86vAVDEW+noAin86/8r/ERtECnNkUJxeE5dPRz1M6SiVAz0 rvycEG2aajroy7gw+RBuOIJY+OmqjKHfR2Z4NXCRCt3lDLftqjU7rnwbKp2EjGqgvY/n2Qc6E T6aNoyNWLraNuFQqAhxa5CS8bRwb3U7c5PL/Ac8RlgKNP3S1YRQsWFQ5lsEjnrw1Mu2O65U+P hUvifFm2IU2IwoWp4J/0EggPROVejwhz7clZaEMQXfJr7ao/FW0NEKpXFGTIwzw/WlbyZHOsp LMJQqSwGLb9fKLNgyJa8y2E9DXXTYKcG+q1dKa2Vizc/RO35+VS7j/Ctw5qS8FBICJFfjQzJs sk//q4qg/9wIQ43qeyJ4B57MICbroTkEb9LSvFNsGQrL2/fZO5ZXCNwYLONh5sFVIbyNYB27C TVfW/Jax5IKYEjZEvNsYvwLSYqbdEQJSr964g2abSUjITSTyZSy+prCNDj0klqHAwxAo2rT X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPgb23Tcz4Wbg X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.72 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.094]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.65)[-0.650]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:09:32 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:54:15 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > >> If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also have > >> such setting switches. > > > > Emailing on a smartphone is a terrible experience. Real people > > use a real computer for real stuff. :-) > > I'm busily re-designing smartphones in my 'spare' cycles because they > barely fit my needs for a _phone_! Smartphones are not _designed_ to be used for phone calls. :-) > >> What I'd suggest that you do is to go to gmail.com and create > >> brandon.helsey@gmail.com and subscribe that address to your > >> open-source mailing list collection. The GMail client can be accessed > >> from any (lynx, anyone? Haven't tested THAT one :) ) web browser, so > >> you can use this on your FreeBSD machine or even a public library > >> computer. > > > > Which, from a security point of view, is one of the worst things > > Point taken.As you can see, 'easy' has overtaken 'secure' for me for > some time. As yet, my GMail hasn't been hacked and it does a pretty > good job of stomping spam, especially from actual live politicians. > ;-) Yes, the functions built into Gmail are actually useful, even if used at a "secondary stage", i. e., with a non-Google mail account. The downside is that you share lots of things with BB that you might not be comfortable with. Luckily, you can do all those things locally on a FreeBSD machine (spam filtering and blacklisting, for example). > >> The downside to GMail is that it is more difficult to categorize > >> e-mails, but IIRC it can be done. > > > > In my opinion, it's just added complexity to something as simple > > as email. Adding Google's Gmail to the mix does not lead to any > > benefits, I'd say. Probably "hotmail.com" already offers some > > web mailer that could be used. But as there is IMAP confirmed, > > why not use that with a normal mailing program on a real computer? > > Anything is better than trying to do this on a smartphone, without > > real success... :-) > > > > Actually, I do like to have folders of e-mails that I stash, but > that's a personal preference. Hey, I do the same with Sylpheed - the "sidebar" on the left contains a sorting hierarchy. Such hierarchies can be maintained automatically by filters acting to keywords, or manually by mouse drag & drop. Thunderbird also has this feature, making it easy to manage IMAP accounts using your local interface and not having to worry about Internet connection - actions will be taken at synchronization time that you can decide on yourself ("offline mode"). > It sounds like the MBox format can do > that, so I'll make a transition myself in some near future. Both mbox and MailDir can be used for hierarchical storage. The main difference is that in mbox, you have _one_ file per mailbox, which can lead to big files; in MailDir, you have one file per message, which can lead to many files. Depending on filesystem parameters, one or the other can slow down message retrieval when you have millions of messages. As I mentioned, the storage mechamism doesn't actually matter as in the end, it all looks the same to the user: +-----------------------------------------------------+ | [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] | +----------+------------------------------------------+ |#### | # ######### ###### #### #### | | ##### | ##### #### #### #### | | ##### | # ######### ####### #### #### | | ##### | ########### ## #### #### | |#### | ######### ##### #### #### | | ##### +------------------------------------------+ | ##### |### ############## | | ##### |### ####### | | ##### |### ###################### | | ##### | | | ##### |### ######## | | ##### | | | ##### |##### ####### ### ### ###### ## ###### ## | |#### |### ### ##### ### ####### #### ###### ## | | ##### |###### ######### ####### ##### ##### #### | | ##### |########## | +----------+------------------------------------------+ Yes, I drew this by hand and local editor copypasta. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:12:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B5433A01B for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:12:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPlN1s38z4WpY for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:12:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MHoVE-1jn4vt2ida-00EsGS; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:12:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:12:40 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Wesley Peng Cc: Wesley Peng via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605031240.2528850a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <4bcf5983-6cf9-5dc6-7a45-0fa22a32f591@aol.com> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> <4bcf5983-6cf9-5dc6-7a45-0fa22a32f591@aol.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:446pAkd1QTnsMPu/gVlq7L/tSRkrmK8stsLw2SSBCxhfbuGJ3yN /cNqhMnA6imcDyYIsO8+tTzPp+Zad1V0egGw0PnlnEM+GUrmFOnrgmGEmWYGs/TiEQa/pYI 5hc90zSmpUt+zLjAUaOiMtRpFyqSz459+eGSTdQSdisqM/0GszGsl6pLH03LrHzFhlt03Hc SCOASATCSri3EFcQIFj3g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DFK4he7ZtE4=:M5DUVrEiwPjzhnsNklkLAe deqQ6OXWyxaFQh9N0GtP5QeudnKELkb9qRi927wmM9v33ZXSZH3pRx9j+7YH4GHNXPODaeUYP CHqoFy+2hw6E/LnSTDMHyWeXnoV/3TmYwOM/uOE0PY0vmmdQDmoXwxxOdo7sMMgUg+Wrs4KAq p0ejXJV3Z3ZoWJms8I8KH1iT7mftaBvtPmiFM6D0BBPWd1drzSfGBrrxL2nFMp+Hl6JZhDIZ9 rZX84YCfGR0hlsivXJ8/KXVKFXqn/u727M7GjLjPiLGDAvLTEWGlnSj+Gw9D3L8IwhSyHKAtQ KyuvgEGhtpbMeoG5yWaG6HxuP9jZGO9c7GuRrbMkG+QjrcIcH+jTy7KW7tDTuS3MsSgsAWIKX RfFzAdauyyaS3LeqcYJ2341gib/idbG/sD4idagUQcbBUb6uOua++41Rvg6ZaBpLPJr5cKzQa YacPA7W+Xjc4VKWfEk6CcPnjzD21w+dryXgD7tACM950FGFYvRFhbR5cL6KmBqG5FAEJHGK4g RHBmLJeh7VbABqUcMQVLNuIW6yhjICQHaIGW2d4C7LYZvHbGnjbfax3D+dzAVYsvO/NObD29F iHFuURwOvphBJqNpGZ0ub+fOacBEe1XzTJnZRjD8S3hkH6ulrRlaCHjsB59krRuuAqRTkFtJY BPAW7Mluw4lLUIYke+OkgAFJRg4GlZNtHJ/Ve+Rg3A4YVKUYju72uAXkb54Hr2AbR+jNUH+vY CIAxY6YZTCsK16zv+HsPLJjHlXEkONOP6yK6ghBK2OvwiDmd1oYJQniDVlDoEwPJ6FDYHgw8R /18Xgz2Nu4AKLUTntC7XRDygR/Hfsqa9Hc2iJ4sTJ9GiYW6oy9MDGoEcng/5jSTDV9I8X0v X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPlN1s38z4WpY X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.25 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.11)[-0.113]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[aol.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.75)[-0.746]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.29)[-0.289]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:12:49 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:59:41 +0800, Wesley Peng via freebsd-questions wrote: > Polytropon wrote: > > It's also worth noting that C from different eras is present in > > the FreeBSD code base. While "man 9 style" is mostly followed, > > the capabilities of the evolving C standard can be different, > > and compiler options might force a specific standard, so assuming > > that "I pick the latest and it will always work everywhere with > > any compiler" is false. > > May I ask if golang behaves well on freebsd world? > I recently program with go and ruby on ubuntu linux, but I am looking > for a alternative environment. I don't know about integration with IDEs, but both "go" and "go-devel" packages are available. So more or less: Yes. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:13:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DA833A297 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:13:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dPm73RwFz4Wvg for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:13:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id x27so4753258lfg.9 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:13:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=sVNUzdXakyebZj/4pNn7mmvql1qgVrrQK3cqi2iA7iU=; b=Bg3vjgGWfWKDKuoEpRJII5YYygJvVImHUfElfSyMXCiXmNNSa0wCuAx76lbZ/4XOqb iaaQJFMEv6mexIiltwtsEMPMFBtniQjeFP57l5P/8RxYuUKj3AzPXAS1FgZqf+tAsr/3 tciL4k7cD/5laWBFCmJZGN9rMWqUjYv9MirAsQNYPlLB1ygFVWwDPnpFv2Sp/OvNRO0j izPp8L2H4TJ8UHQ8yIfHHyyLNJT3UMrzPblTuEi8PEJEuAyXTroKN+dGZ310mbqZKqjH Uegw6ebhQWqw6Yf9kgdLBMxYV+JiFen2PeFLBpr4iwdQDvNbmbsXepY3xfcix/i/7tVG Quxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sVNUzdXakyebZj/4pNn7mmvql1qgVrrQK3cqi2iA7iU=; b=cSNnEeSUZrozwQua+2xI4osOcGwqlIWdMTUk+axp1USpTA/nLmkcSL15kvaRSbJR6w LT6ozFxbQazoBrs6KDc2J6k1IlDfUyESgx6DTASdrWL1PfxUf2iP4lMO61ZULl8IaR7i M7i9G+ZJQjGjxHKyb0HnNgL8y9WEh+LcniN77CB+DysXbygpRUmP6l/kHUwa+NTgj5sq H1/4QpuQIBf+7XquNowa3JyBGKVk5Ubw1zvsoTKGKuioiyD8THPuMkndzgzmoOVnYaqI DrmiZCXEptM6UOeJsTgigjC2L94Uxqbk/pvRksl7d12+/UDjJVdRGefYuByMUB+R40k8 80iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533peCDGDUQqTOqOvjMMv10ntQjedWL83wz/fh73oGVvvxZLXDWY /HrcZe9lCfpt40uoxHqe0VYiBaKBfRt328PLUPo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbIIOiFYPYJAHT9ZdLKrzG9xgwZ9mk3t969B+8amPrmu0bSWLtOd5e2/OlqaB7RzpyjAe2y2RUOeLOavDh2HM= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:511d:: with SMTP id q29mr3950364lfb.24.1591319605306; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:13:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <4bcf5983-6cf9-5dc6-7a45-0fa22a32f591@aol.com> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> <4bcf5983-6cf9-5dc6-7a45-0fa22a32f591@aol.com> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Wesley Peng Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dPm73RwFz4Wvg X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Bg3vjgGW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.76 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.75)[-0.747]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[aol.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.047]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.964]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:13:28 -0000 On 6/4/20, Wesley Peng via freebsd-questions wrote: [snip] > May I ask if golang behaves well on freebsd world? > I recently program with go and ruby on ubuntu linux, but I am looking > for a alternative environment. > Ruby is happy. Some ports require 2.6.6, with is the default for /usr/local/bin/ruby but 2.7.1 installs in parallel. You can either change the symlink (buyer beware!), or just call /usr/local/bin/ruby27. Haven't tried golang yet, too many neglected good things in my stack already but I'm sure _somebody_ here has done so! -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:27:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D9333A433 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dQ405j39z4YYD for ; 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Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:27:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:27:09 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dQ405j39z4YYD X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=n2oCESVn; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.90 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.867]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.039]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22c:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:27:13 -0000 On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:54:15 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: >> > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> >> If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also have >> >> such setting switches. >> > >> > Emailing on a smartphone is a terrible experience. Real people >> > use a real computer for real stuff. :-) >> >> I'm busily re-designing smartphones in my 'spare' cycles because they >> barely fit my needs for a _phone_! > > Smartphones are not _designed_ to be used for phone calls. :-) ROFL VVH! Imagine that! What are they, status symbols of the poor and clueless? > > > >> >> What I'd suggest that you do is to go to gmail.com and create >> >> brandon.helsey@gmail.com and subscribe that address to your >> >> open-source mailing list collection. The GMail client can be accessed >> >> from any (lynx, anyone? Haven't tested THAT one :) ) web browser, so >> >> you can use this on your FreeBSD machine or even a public library >> >> computer. >> > >> > Which, from a security point of view, is one of the worst things >> >> Point taken. As you can see, 'easy' has overtaken 'secure' for me for >> some time. As yet, my GMail hasn't been hacked and it does a pretty >> good job of stomping spam, especially from actual live politicians. >> ;-) [snip] My Yahoo account has been hacked. I suppose it'll eventually happen to GMail as well. Well, I'll have plenty of servers to replace it with soon enough. > > >> >> The downside to GMail is that it is more difficult to categorize >> >> e-mails, but IIRC it can be done. >> > >> > In my opinion, it's just added complexity to something as simple >> > as email. Adding Google's Gmail to the mix does not lead to any >> > benefits, I'd say. Probably "hotmail.com" already offers some >> > web mailer that could be used. But as there is IMAP confirmed, >> > why not use that with a normal mailing program on a real computer? >> > Anything is better than trying to do this on a smartphone, without >> > real success... :-) >> > >> >> Actually, I do like to have folders of e-mails that I stash, but >> that's a personal preference. > > Hey, I do the same with Sylpheed - the "sidebar" on the left > contains a sorting hierarchy. Such hierarchies can be maintained > automatically by filters acting to keywords, or manually by > mouse drag & drop. Thunderbird also has this feature, making > it easy to manage IMAP accounts using your local interface and > not having to worry about Internet connection - actions will be > taken at synchronization time that you can decide on yourself > ("offline mode"). >> It sounds like the MBox format can do >> that, so I'll make a transition myself in some near future. > > Both mbox and MailDir can be used for hierarchical storage. > The main difference is that in mbox, you have _one_ file per > mailbox, which can lead to big files; in MailDir, you have > one file per message, which can lead to many files. Depending > on filesystem parameters, one or the other can slow down > message retrieval when you have millions of messages. Thanks for the edu experience, Polytropon! <(_ _)> :D Nothing can slow things down as much as Windows 10 does, out of the box. I have an i7 4-core tower with 16GB of DDR4 and it's a slug that I am always worried will do something Very Stupid(TM by MS) to me, like reformatting my "damaged" USB key without asking. > As I mentioned, the storage mechamism doesn't actually matter > as in the end, it all looks the same to the user: > > +-----------------------------------------------------+ > | [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] | > +----------+------------------------------------------+ Dang, P! PUNCH CARDS??? -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:36:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1859733A99D for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:36:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x241.google.com (mail-lj1-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dQGL5K4Zz4ZP4 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:36:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x241.google.com with SMTP id n23so9709897ljh.7 for ; 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Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:36:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <6b5318f0-8139-0994-5a3f-de646496b2dc@holgerdanske.com> <24281.37948.274297.76623@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605025655.5e75b15e.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:36:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dQGL5K4Zz4ZP4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=sk4pRZLh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.68)[-0.677]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.897]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.927]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::241:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:36:12 -0000 On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:39:24 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: >> >> David Christensen writes: [snip] >> This is not the case; the latest revision of which I am aware is >> the 2018 Standard (which is the 2011 Standard with bug fixes). >> >> > and K&R 2e is still the standard text: >> >> There's a reason this is still _the_ "Start here." book. > > It's also worth noting that C from different eras is present in > the FreeBSD code base. While "man 9 style" is mostly followed, > the capabilities of the evolving C standard can be different, > and compiler options might force a specific standard, so assuming > that "I pick the latest and it will always work everywhere with > any compiler" is false. :-) On a side note, while buildworld was running I noticed a lot of C++ source files flowing by. Methinks it might be a useful addition to the docs for each major component of the base system to add a 'source in XYZ' comment to the man pages in some decided-on consistent way. That might not be trivial for some components but it would be a good subject for Brendon to investigate and document somewhere(TBD), somehow(TBD). I know that you can get a dependency list for each port and package, so that might be a starting point... -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:54:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9590333AED8 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:54:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dQgp2Fh2z4cf8 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:54:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MoNu2-1j9sbb25ua-00okry; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:54:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:54:43 +0200 From: Polytropon To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605035443.0eb7e60a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KtrWecvxtRtpNH2r0nDUH4ICk9aZLgcAYqAujFYWgvDIFOicCRG u78PU0wHXsctmk/ZhgfPqpQ6ThOugowUuXc6lz0m3yLOb4FaI9LfW/k2i5A1GgxVpZI6cXE VKCZyAQDiOzXbxbecabDFIBTut0Y2HaregvCqjqYskUyaFJ6KcSAc0nCL4ldUYsFE166Ekx kX0jcuPVDUBilWUnaD4Aw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+mQkgW7aoO0=:5Z+u9NBvw+VC0vqxZNT/Jf 6HvcOa1YUl/J5Uva0f0ccqXphEaewi0NLxc1JQp4Ch+VRgZSSwlmtvB+YXdRWnRpd7eGMu1/4 Dy46KRcEV6fKJelGKUCAM8FrlXcVStCw7S68O1CSl8em2ovb/A8EfRe1dGA5OMxjorGqW77Rx /y4FXX6xzRur699EKaszjoRYr9oWu0sbjXCOgqG1S0Tqoa1+Eukhk1Hvqd7IdfO/vkXHWXHIF BJjMO9NUHPBpE/LtDA8DJUWIQqgpHJ20xYpygHMcYWCbJw2JM13l8mz/0F0jLf9N7uAUHxYTU /0qwKv5o+P3t6u0zvyq5eIRNfnFLzXmeJO3t6tIcdATHbBD2Jh2jWaKTHp0nGph5a2L6FzRrd pZwLAkcG9QUqLskVWOab5gF1VtyXrR7kodOjPupeyzFanst7MaMbv2Nt1Mp8TMrs3qhYX8fmV dIpj4ciINQQpp+dShK9QyiagPG6owvIBhBx3bUqGfUchO39DkhjMnwbo4w35/kQfK/fRTstOY VBSDOkdrta2ODm1t/SHvNnOcTlv4MookR/8RJdhso2cWwLN3cvp33KdrhBgnbt/lAvtOhP2sf z6AobkKE7zIow49egq/Sut2uzehUOCN7LpGoJkrFMZFjY8sGNL2+dEswI83GOJ8a65bQMfeRJ AdJwWA8tb0FqRmjgLwjEKfDS6QA7msZLZ7sPnueMvncImAoR3b5QoIMnxj6yGMmKWJyLyxfBu lvvTBJcf2Cfdr3CB3I4bvWRO8SDKYZVXGVQkfUJAEQnBaHtOGx6KOyjqCmMnepFWljjjqlvqe 0uThmEho1nxuRnLZV0VlMuIv5VM1DC1mmHJWAFwfsvE9Ug2SnAzXxms09Lbi3km9WY9bwZo X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dQgp2Fh2z4cf8 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.79 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.500]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.887]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.23)[-0.227]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:54:47 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:27:09 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:54:15 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > >> On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > >> > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > >> >> If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also have > >> >> such setting switches. > >> > > >> > Emailing on a smartphone is a terrible experience. Real people > >> > use a real computer for real stuff. :-) > >> > >> I'm busily re-designing smartphones in my 'spare' cycles because they > >> barely fit my needs for a _phone_! > > > > Smartphones are not _designed_ to be used for phone calls. :-) > > ROFL VVH! Imagine that! What are they, status symbols of the > poor and clueless? Depends. The more expensive they are, the more they are a status symbol of the rich and clueless. Primarily they are used to monitor and control people who don't know better because BB LOVE YOU and everyone needs a smartphone today. :-) Seriously, I found that conversation quality (both in the audio parameters and in the content) of smartphones is lower than with nonsmart mobile phones and regular "landline" phones; I don't know why. I'm old, so I will never understand what makes those things interesting, I find them just plain boring. I mean, you can't even easily program them, what kind of computers are those? Richard Feynman: "What I cannot create, I do not understand." > >> It sounds like the MBox format can do > >> that, so I'll make a transition myself in some near future. > > > > Both mbox and MailDir can be used for hierarchical storage. > > The main difference is that in mbox, you have _one_ file per > > mailbox, which can lead to big files; in MailDir, you have > > one file per message, which can lead to many files. Depending > > on filesystem parameters, one or the other can slow down > > message retrieval when you have millions of messages. > > Thanks for the edu experience, Polytropon! <(_ _)> :D > > Nothing can slow things down as much as Windows 10 does, out of the > box. I have an i7 4-core tower with 16GB of DDR4 and it's a slug that > I am always worried will do something Very Stupid(TM by MS) to me, > like reformatting my "damaged" USB key without asking. Yes, I've seen that and have successfully done excessive data recovery sessions with the result of such a "repair". > > As I mentioned, the storage mechamism doesn't actually matter > > as in the end, it all looks the same to the user: > > > > +-----------------------------------------------------+ > > | [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] | > > +----------+------------------------------------------+ > > Dang, P! PUNCH CARDS??? No, icon bar. Punched cards have a missing corner, like this: ________________________________________________ ///SYSIN DD * HOW DID THIS GET HERE?! | | # ## # ### ## ## ## # | | # # # # | |##### # # # # # | |## | | # # # | | # # | | ## # # # | | # # # # | | ## | | # ## | | # # # # # ## | | # # # # | |________________________________________________| You can create them yourself with FreeBSD: $ echo 'your card text here' | bcd | awk '!/^\// { gsub("[1-9]", " ", $0); gsub("]", "#", $0); print } /^\//' Pipe that to the printer and enjoy. :-) See "man bcd" and "man ppt" for details (package "bsdgames", programs initially belonged to the default OS installation). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 01:59:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0323033B232 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:59:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesleypeng@aol.com) Received: from sonic306-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic306-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dQnb4qC8z4d3Z for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:59:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesleypeng@aol.com) X-YMail-OSG: B4MJpoQVM1m2vxfFaoclEZDvf2FCwKD9L_tpLDB4.5y9oI4zl2MYAY3M3AQZHoU 4rWAncJmj23TpYTJr.Fy4toDvPB5Jpim5hSmCbSTxrPy7s21NHLJW7RQcZ3H0UoWXpXPfiRrsGiu 9mbW3fw.x1P35QoNTmdkzzWL0DG3zqMIb5vdoiK.K7ckgYThDV0LeKv6d.c50pOODxD85fEBbNJi numyRh6_nwhcxNR1SOh7VzbmSOXuLKHVJA3Wz38zfnN0Y3au.9JRvVS7TIAW8V5DuCqFQPyBnDGJ oZC2DNM_L0BmhhGBuB1kCZxa543D98Ww.SVPdbcByzUhaOkI8c06P1cH_BMIgZECViU4BGKl1vvn HR5ATFISQQTUvi4cEWAINGa6nFcOPqCJFo3W.Kh.r_yaLe4RAyvH9dmZ71Fhe8H7aDdVlh_uMrr8 yWrtnjQPATYYQ8jvsqL8rZveJXBViyfhsg2MexYK2KKMtGS2bF3NkUUsmn0ulE.pxHhL6oHnrWEf .uBY2yAeo9fSZd85UIiCdqLUukKM73vvvCrmHjsGYcG1ZbS2PG0LYjIH2BkB5YFg76y0X2LN6EZd bdZMt3Ngf3GTOoreRsnI3x.ZzyUCmx5YNmR7mRd6L26whE7nGI7nEEAj8GLdkEmNNtRpgNzkiilm MWCUEdUbw03Sr7p_7jwbwjiFqcOdL21I.hqkJRq8NthvOXMx2L9LHKFNYbIeqj0X2wwcjZT1OLBV AaHtablLpYFUh_XHF1EDpJOv7qDIG5gGfYB_lYDofdvNav.l0AEVguECQcpbhv2fezv9rqiYIEYt Fd_Fx0htqJHY0XvhcFdoGQeadKbfHbZj61bdtvuNsMbeBQiH9kx58sIYQG6eqWKFyUdwrtfJPqiO QaJA0pFJ0CDgj5P5lZA2L.IAMMwTPsQh9gXIPqJB2sglbxLMSOUigoMOeKxjAffdpIxLYWp_Yhlf yI5w.SPkRQOwMXNl9yBSrkHyN1qrIqAW04nqXMOvwAHSrpLUcpmev7OX3c8QxthWlJ5YarWc1in5 rym02GEHjSfHfq1rzVFcmZebomen8xQoEsLRYewh7oQCMVvXSbhH_fJIViioH053wXKWzFqoNYwf yKEICDQ4fphU9xBKzLq.R.WsQAqVQxqbttAsGDMEmfs79Bt2K5ZFNDNdrbcMvQPgQn_udTDvNLB7 KMSginudaQsTShdODRGao4C18o95n6n8Qmb4jnMKLokjjrY9TuMQFWLKYBOJ5innuUKGBjfI2Dpk 18DZHe7.VwFdIYxrn2M.LQM6MIsqNWfxkS5oD3CkcUYnH7b9HxuXl.nVxANRDPAUEncTVkOZFPz5 9V4P6bnQ5Xwx_JtqaiWvHZBVErHXS42i.pLebN72a2oI- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 01:59:46 +0000 Received: by smtp421.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID cbfacd853b5b6fa4f1a154cd81eaa740; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:59:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Wesley Peng Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:59:40 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dQnb4qC8z4d3Z X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.23 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aol.com:s=a2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[aol.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.005]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:74.6.128.0/21]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aol.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aol.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.6.132.42:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.21)[-0.210]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[aol.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26101, ipnet:74.6.128.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[74.6.132.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:59:49 -0000 Donald Wilde wrote: > My Yahoo account has been hacked. I suppose it'll eventually happen to > GMail as well. Well, I'll have plenty of servers to replace it with > soon enough. I am afraid my old AOL account would be hacked too. Now aol and yahoo become the same company. :) -- Wesley Peng wesleypeng@aol.com From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 02:42:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE02F33C0F9 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:42:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dRkY2Fwfz3T8L for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:42:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49dRkX3H5Dz1xdd for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:42:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dRkY2Fwfz3T8L X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.12 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.899]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.21)[0.215]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.934]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:42:14 -0000 On 2020-06-04 21:59, Wesley Peng via freebsd-questions wrote: > Donald Wilde wrote: >> My Yahoo account has been hacked. I suppose it'll eventually happen to >> GMail as well. Well, I'll have plenty of servers to replace it with >> soon enough. > > I am afraid my old AOL account would be hacked too. Now aol and yahoo > become the same company. :) Yahoo's mail servers have been broken into a number of times over the last five years or so. Apparently that organization is unable to protect them. Other mail providers don't seem to be that hapless. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 03:00:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B767A33C1FC for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:00:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dS741jpFz3WFw for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:59:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49dS735qB1zTQP for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: <0f66f10f-eec5-d4fe-0c22-b0536515dfa2@panix.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:59:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dS741jpFz3WFw X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.25 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.918]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.09)[0.094]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.927]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:00:00 -0000 On 2020-06-04 17:02, Brandon helsley wrote: >> The canonical C book is: > > > > >https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html ...> The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. Wouldn't it be better to use a newer study book? Should I look for something newer? Yes, that book is over 30 years old. C itself, and Unix, were invented together about 1970. (FreeBSD is a version of Unix; Linux is a different version of Unix.) That is a classic book about C, and still valuable, but no longer complete. There were some additions to the language in 1999, and a couple smaller changes since. C is useful to know around Unix systems, and there's a lot of existing software in the world written in C, but it's not used all that much for new projects. I say this even though I've used C and Unix for a long time. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 03:28:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A96833D5EA for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dSm744jDz3Zdn for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:28:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 202so4916084lfe.5 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:28:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; 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Thu, 04 Jun 2020 20:28:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200605035443.0eb7e60a.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605035443.0eb7e60a.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 20:28:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dSm744jDz3Zdn X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=HpUqyz9V; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.60)[-0.595]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.973]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::12a:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:28:40 -0000 On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 18:27:09 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: >> > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:54:15 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> >> On 6/4/20, Polytropon wrote: >> >> > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 17:08:01 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> >> >> If it's an Android phone, whatever MUA you have on it should also >> >> >> have >> >> >> such setting switches. >> >> > >> >> > Emailing on a smartphone is a terrible experience. Real people >> >> > use a real computer for real stuff. :-) >> >> >> >> I'm busily re-designing smartphones in my 'spare' cycles because they >> >> barely fit my needs for a _phone_! >> > >> > Smartphones are not _designed_ to be used for phone calls. :-) >> >> ROFL VVH! Imagine that! What are they, status symbols of the >> poor and clueless? > > Depends. The more expensive they are, the more they are a status > symbol of the rich and clueless. Primarily they are used to monitor > and control people who don't know better because BB LOVE YOU and > everyone needs a smartphone today. :-) Hah, hear that. My Mom still has a flip-phone. SMS is too much for it, but for her it works fine. > > Seriously, I found that conversation quality (both in the audio > parameters and in the content) of smartphones is lower than with > nonsmart mobile phones and regular "landline" phones; I don't I'm 96% deaf in some freq ranges, so it is an absolute blessing that my smartphone has Bluetooth on it. i have some really fancy (and more expensive than my car, thank you Intel insurance!) hearing aids and a Phonak dongle that connects everything with high fidelity custom-tailored to my ears! > know why. I'm old, so I will never understand what makes those > things interesting, I find them just plain boring. I mean, you > can't even easily program them, what kind of computers are those? > > Richard Feynman: "What I cannot create, I do not understand." > Actually, one of my long ago programming projects was an Android 1.5 Java app that allowed you to d/l multi-media 'brochures' so you could compare the features of things, like if you wanted to compare a Ford Raptor and a GMC whatever and you wanted to hear their engines and see media clips. The public Internet was woefully inadequate for that in those days, but if the planets were in the right orientation and it was oh-dark-thirty, it all worked. Android Java is actually very intuitive and easy to use, unlike OpenJDK Java and the gazillions of layers you need to do anything. It's all FOSS too, though using C++ and the Native Development Kit requires contortions because the Android kernel is a mostly-brain-dead Linux GPL-licensed kernel. The modern Android IDE is very intuitive although you might need to use a Linux VM to run it on your FreeBSD system. > >> >> It sounds like the MBox format can do >> >> that, so I'll make a transition myself in some near future. >> > >> > Both mbox and MailDir can be used for hierarchical storage. >> > The main difference is that in mbox, you have _one_ file per >> > mailbox, which can lead to big files; in MailDir, you have >> > one file per message, which can lead to many files. Depending >> > on filesystem parameters, one or the other can slow down >> > message retrieval when you have millions of messages. >> >> Thanks for the edu experience, Polytropon! <(_ _)> :D >> >> Nothing can slow things down as much as Windows 10 does, out of the >> box. I have an i7 4-core tower with 16GB of DDR4 and it's a slug that >> I am always worried will do something Very Stupid(TM by MS) to me, >> like reformatting my "damaged" USB key without asking. > > Yes, I've seen that and have successfully done excessive > data recovery sessions with the result of such a "repair". > I've been fortunate. What sets it off, I think, is that I use it for my Ubuntu backup storage and I think that's just binary BLOBs. I haven't tried to do a 'restore' since this happened, though... :-( I've stopped having the key (128GB!) plugged in when I switch OSen! >> > As I mentioned, the storage mechamism doesn't actually matter >> > as in the end, it all looks the same to the user: >> > >> > +-----------------------------------------------------+ >> > | [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] | >> > +----------+------------------------------------------+ >> >> Dang, P! PUNCH CARDS??? > > No, icon bar. Punched cards have a missing corner, like this: > > ________________________________________________ > ///SYSIN DD * HOW DID THIS GET HERE?! | [snip] My first programming was done in HS (~1973) on IBM punch-card machines. The IBM360 ran a little interpreter called STOP that had register-indirect pointers and other cool stuff. Opened the top of my noggin, you might say... We sent a card deck in each class day and got the printouts back a few days later. > You can create them yourself with FreeBSD: > > $ echo 'your card text here' | bcd | awk '!/^\// { gsub("[1-9]", " ", $0); > gsub("]", "#", $0); print } /^\//' > > Pipe that to the printer and enjoy. :-) > > See "man bcd" and "man ppt" for details (package "bsdgames", > programs initially belonged to the default OS installation). > I love it!!! I recently saw a "Conway's Game of Life" program that was ported from APL into Ruby, and I've been exploring doing an ncurses front-end for it as a low-end console-friendly screen saver -- in my copious free time, of course! -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 04:06:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20A633E16D for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:06:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dTcM3Mvzz3fRD for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:06:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49dTcL75VlzW7g for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200605023503.50311b56.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:06:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200605023503.50311b56.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dTcM3Mvzz3fRD X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.909]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.319]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:06:59 -0000 On 2020-06-04 20:35, Polytropon wrote: > Try to get a better understanding of "what is what" and "what > does what"... Agreed. Here's a start. In the common case, which is probably what you do now with your phone, somebody uses a mail reader (also called mail user agent, MUA) to send a message across the Internet to a mail server (mail transfer agent, MTA), which may send it on to other MTAs, and the message eventually gets to a mail server at, say, hotmail.com, which stores the message in a disk file. Later you fire up K-9 on your phone, which communicates with some server at Hotmail through the network communication protocol IMAP (Internet Message Access Protocol), and gets a copy of that message to display on your phone. K-9 doesn't have to put its copy of the message in permanent storage in your phone; it can just hold it in main memory while you read it, and then throw it away. The mail server keeps the disk copy of the message that it has, unless you tell it to delete it. Postfix is a mail transfer agent; Dovecot is an IMAP server. I suggest that, to start with, you don't mess with Postfix, Dovecot, fetchmail. or local storage of received mail. First do one simple thing: install and configure some mail reader on your FreeBSD system to do the same thing K-9 does: talk to Hotmail through IMAP, get a copy of your mail, show it to you. Play around with that, send messages, etc. Send a message to yourself, read it, reply to it. I suggest the mail reader Thunderbird. Then you could do the same thing with some different mail reader on your FreeBSD system, just to compare the two mail readers. Maybe Alpine, Elm, or Mutt. (Mutt is complex; the other two are simpler. All of them run in a terminal emulator, rather than being fully graphical.) You could also try Wikipedia, though this article may not tell you exactly what you want to know right now: Also see this article about Usenet-style quoting: From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 04:07:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDA733E72A for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:07:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam12olkn20824.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe59::824]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dTdF2Qnsz3fKP for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:07:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; 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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:07:43 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:5B952DB682C597DA325EAA575995432FA5090BF8B2547B68ED8C9712814934E1; UpperCasedChecksum:F502637011AD6E9056E4560F1AFC89197C768BE769F5A5DE0CDE3EEC1DC27D2C; SizeAsReceived:9471; Count:46 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e]) by CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.018; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:07:43 +0000 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:07:27 -0600 From: Brandon helsley To: freebsd-questions , Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> Subject: Re: Minimal skills X-ClientProxiedBy: CH2PR05CA0020.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:610::33) To CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:910:7a::16) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from email.client.edison.tech (2600:1:9500:852a:0:5a:eacb:6a01) by CH2PR05CA0020.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:610::33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.9 via Frontend Transport; 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RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:07:46 -0000 >Yes, that book is over 30 years old. C itself, and Unix, were invented together about 1970. (FreeBSD is a version of Unix; Linux is a different version of Unix.) >That is a classic book about C, and still valuable, but no longer complete. There were some additions to the language in 1999, and a couple smaller changes since. >C is useful to know around Unix systems, and there's a lot of existing software in the world written in C, but it's not used all that much for new projects. I say this even though I've used C and Unix for a long time. Then you are recommending new learning material for C? Is it C or C+ or C++ that I'm to be benefited to learn when working with freebsd? > > On Jun 4, 2020 at 9:00 PM, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > > > On 2020-06-04 17:02, Brandon helsley wrote: >> The canonical C book is: > > > > >https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Kernighan-C-Programming-Language-2nd-Edition/PGM54487.html ...> The link you sent me for the c programming language is from 1988. Wouldn't it be better to use a newer study book? Should I look for something newer? Yes, that book is over 30 years old. C itself, and Unix, were invented together about 1970. (FreeBSD is a version of Unix; Linux is a different version of Unix.) That is a classic book about C, and still valuable, but no longer complete. There were some additions to the language in 1999, and a couple smaller changes since. C is useful to know around Unix systems, and there's a lot of existing software in the world written in C, but it's not used all that much for new projects. I say this even though I've used C and Unix for a long time. _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 04:23:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FFA33E8DF for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:23:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dTzt0MxFz3gnb for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:23:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MQvL7-1jMOTR0EPH-00O3VM; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:23:50 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:23:49 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605062349.461e1e66.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:GqHqSOWsmulWRNuGG5uzS11U5+2zm0LS795RkNL/vzgQxsdRufQ XB6z0gmcqOKKlJ1chM6XhUq2qZiIk+J2L+k8oSkKADSY1BHH5ZeanbfBZHx5g/rFWxHT6UN QlwaLBg6p4CewE7ojyzXOgbDLfGZF3Yz7692SKriMjC+V00T/Iwelv22V7R1pNkqdzXjIyg aSFzxd5AvB7YFHuq57Wqw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Z3QgmBcVvDY=:viJCUNkgqQgtdq8WkocBl4 z4DCTHl0zaVgmO9QZJ6lZ258L4gj3hGt9HAeWnNtiQTofJzWhLA7vKbxnOBZe0DJFpeuBGL21 0Qu9qtV2ilyomra2mLjvTQRmaKvcVNkFjx/sTNNzT5ZF6RK8OlNXbPG9+92HpVxzxP1rIUKas OW59qCT97qko7qCLwW9KCp+m6Jq4xni3k8MBDXMCnoVpk5sXe0Gpa4LEtHX9XTlRu3jivxTDw lHHBPKGXaFtAs/xK2dFJ2rF7FHApx1n+KNR1KrZiJHOtKU9iYi8ee/tbClRnaJp6QXPCD6KoE iERwXk23oneYug1kJO7qIihH4Q1xzpN17fLZP891DF0HIab7fq7IMeOGyWZ4c+WhV/jJt6FFR DTp2upwnVF/wPu7Y4N0AYfwqJzbltK6If7RBxJVZhbw5O2CpGVysCwpkK5ik0CBzd2bQ/O3pM QYT8kZrHqBXmGN4nhyGd950lntAr6f8g2DvDJkf+5WE9SPFOYx2iPb2letw6NwEdJQvitk4sj 42Dha4rv4CmBVXBruWMMDr/+fovocUl229ef5w765XZpexHoZ/NdPuOjvRkTsjq0g9vDVE4SJ /qtElql2FLdKdmY+y7fUcxqTxmCHWdUe5nl2MOr6QvYtRpJeK7dAYIIOftNpsrLOHaVCpgtzn h4BG5l4DfNR9dIKbQhrAJQKqKlq2DtEUMz5gtCKsDPEV+y9Bxf5GY+BgQ1jnI1Gh7dVcpKq5c s8c39qBSx+YutlSjzlwM31X3ctXqoXIWIdAc6ZNJk2qc0uNCOYmZcGHWmt8/wHeuHXbuUOcEL YCRKMY5QJ7e2JDVniU6BHVV5K9ss2P/mgSEwfZpLWFY1CQGym8xkLg7yP3wvIQbCeUwoWne X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dTzt0MxFz3gnb X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.16)[-0.161]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.73)[-0.730]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.10)[0.099]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:23:55 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 22:07:27 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Then you are recommending new learning material for C? You don't do anything wrong by reading older C books like the original K&R, but don't assume that the language and its usage hasn't changed. Newer books will surely be written with ANSI C and newer standards in mind. Sometimes the older material can help you understand certain things better, maybe because newer material either assumes it as known, or simply doesn't mention it at all. It is never bad to know older versions of the C language because you will surely find code where you might be tempted to think: "Why did the programmer do it this way? C has a specific construct for that!" - except when the code was written, the C standard did _not_ have that specific construct, so the programmer had to invent it before its time. :-) Personally, I would say the best approach is to have an older and a newer book about C. The basic K&R material is _never_ wrong; add knowledge about the new standards, because you will also face code with those in mind. Here is something for illustration: https://olvemaudal.com/2011/10/10/deep-c/ Depending on what you want to deal with (in FreeBSD code), you'll need a certain level of understanding: not just the C language, but also the library functions used. Luckily all the sources are present in /usr/src, so when you encounter a bug, you can always find out _where_ it comes from, and therefore have a good starting point. Many years ago, I solved a data recovery problem by reading and modifying the code of the fsck program for the UFS filesystem, and reading the McKusick paper on UFS. Without understanding C, and without understanding how UFS works, I would not have been able to do so. > Is it C or C+ or C++ that I'm to be benefited to learn > when working with freebsd? FreeBSD (as the operating system) contains sources mostly in the form of C and assembly (here, primarily the drivers), but there's also C++, simply because there is no language that can be considered "one size fits all". You should probably know the fundamentals of C, so you recognize the typical elements of the language. From this foundation, you will be able to understand the purpose (!) of code, rather than just the components it is composed of. As FreeBSD consists of elements on different levels of complexity, such as boot code, standard libraries, user programs, filesystem code, device drivers, communication stacks, and so on, the means of implementation also differ. This is not a mistake - it's the logical conclusion. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 04:24:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2135433EE08 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:24:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dV0s5R7mz3yg9 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:24:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49dV0s1pP6zWXD for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:24:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dV0s5R7mz3yg9 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.899]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.340]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.934]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:24:46 -0000 On 2020-06-05 00:07, Brandon helsley wrote: > Then you are recommending new learning material for C? I guess I recommend that book, Kernighan and Ritchie (second edition), supplemented by something else to cover the stuff added in 1999. > Is it C or C+ or C++ that I'm to be benefited to learn when working with freebsd? Good question. C+ doesn't exist; C++ is a separate language, mostly a superset of C, but not perfectly compatible. C++ has a lot more stuff, mostly "objects". I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer language. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 04:29:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5553633F406 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:29:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dV6200sVz3yvc for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:29:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49dV61592xzWd6 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605062349.461e1e66.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: <0e2c7ffb-b918-688b-aad9-52fa25e7cb1f@panix.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:29:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200605062349.461e1e66.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dV6200sVz3yvc X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.900]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.339]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.934]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:29:14 -0000 On 2020-06-05 00:23, Polytropon wrote: > You don't do anything wrong by reading older C books like > the original K&R, but don't assume that the language and > its usage hasn't changed. Newer books will surely be written > with ANSI C and newer standards in mind. The second edition of K&R includes ANSI C, finalized in 1989. What it doesn't have is the stuff added in 1999. I don't recommend the first edition of that book. That's too far back in the past. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 05:57:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24DE340ADE for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 05:57:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic302-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic302-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dX3H0Cb5z47QG for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 05:56:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: U4nDgrYVM1me.k6cMYf2WHASUF_NdkqBLNFKgFW8UKawpgh0rCd5imQDoDZOQ96 NUweQQ3TUhifzkgNVt606CPqrckobh5Byhzy5Wd7ORxVXFbTPciyzOm3lq18ihvVGKnBhPavwKw2 HlOTVNNm4EOcE0Sp49fUXhF7F0meqFMZgG0BcrSrQf9kNK5kdzFudsAfArmmnNlYHbATP29fXweF ZlFJn.p0wwDvH_r.wmQ6satpdyEThU1n_Xc_o78x1QnC4XbQEEyeTJqcGCecyaDvz5ez6M1EKcq4 r6EtQB2AO1sGo6sGxTi42104Kc8P0j1Da.L46kv0pItrBCq.2dkTj.Y7qXPSKPHo2yOkzrP9JtSn kuh0v9UqXPMyMXlA4v8MZKaHlDgd7a9N4FcjVToNNtoGnINfn3sJAXMkl_nXYFo4nOrQHi4.OzcU 7XcRscDrhSpNpTGt1g9jCtF1277uPabNeQWIV3ajMsX2FAgOorw3FOLvCoT8Un_js0wcIlUU6EtF 1WXbBvxToNqbhfr40cqXfI_NObaQ_gVCHttaSmuiIfpZ5QEiD0dpcazlpFRPPsnvGo9DVPzX423a ApqbJ5ktaBDLEz2LEd6Tba.5YR.KGK8ofjnr6rIprAIePLAYJTTqFd0uNcayp0A_.AJ1PGYGCHBp E8VQFtFKc1sKY0d14a3xfW3l9HEUjK8tabXapXF9eOuzCczOh8KPQSC0s3YP6TKJuPrWEHvu3x.k F626JBdav7eqeeTYUTR8mrERqU34_mnFsTNuR1bpBK9wpjyrBBqk.DiJF8tiorbQnNjY3h3pAy7h M3FJAnEUwBEy5ENnRXMl4sV7uFMOpllJahfKeqFQatmj5UfQ7apDLuxrO8gJxObCndjmWSbj1IZW EdcBvjxAEnYrJ5W2vtjNUJOjUQQtt5Mv63mZtDvNbp0YB6v16Pfm99wfBklBzBRDaUSZbPYep.1E _HoTKhwAK3lJxl37ArZXdQXJlzAXStfp0Ox_JeTi2hAzQHeRmINZI9_eNb3oKHsxOSOh7Hyw_qvK AFQHnyDaC1C000TdQV5dp0ywD2tP5XcW3LDdQe7mRlpuCA1cKmggInRkPA9D_x0xAaVgvszMQKNX z4jlNI2kCpm9Vpm.dQJul2vt4FtQKLpjFs0VUAUtgzelziqtaROAhiKBK7B2uDzDzyfvnQjtVdgi Huoykqjcj1RLJyTWwshg0fbZ_Naain_aBuHxmDOhSXG2AgHcfc0wI7dsu1GSwx8JJ7rG.sLkzC2. JeXRsnWYcRV8YL5xNMsziU7gWkistHQdk20MPRB7wJwAKZmye6.QcYoteKqCqYBvfxkDynCHxW93 cBN3BkvN89pCmtwJ9PMm_h27ekIHPbg96tvfzTPgdZBkTNnjyhRFunKIva4H3Mw5_XgOwNN6rwI. wnTPQe400N_d_JuE- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 05:56:56 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8bff7e2184b0bbcf085c771a698b35a2; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 07:56:53 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200605075653.6f230147@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200605003308.3015108b.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200605003308.3015108b.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dX3H0Cb5z47QG X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[87.248.110.82:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.406]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[87.248.110.82:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 05:57:00 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:33:08 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and >see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple >mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. I share my POP accounts with different MUAs. All, excepted of one MUA leave the mails on the server. On my desktop PC I store 100,000th of mails duplicated by two MUAs. It's not an issue related to disk space. On my iPads I delete the mails. It isn't really much work to set up several MUAs, even when being in favour of POP. FWIW nowadays I'm using Claws and Evolution as my main MUAs, but I also run Sylpheed and the iPad pseudo-MUA. Claws issue is the "> ", this results in "> > ", while it should become ">> ", so for Claws I'm using ">". I'm not using HTML. If for some reason HTML is wanted, I recommend to test Evolution. Apart from blind users who read Braille, I can't understand why users are in favour of text-based MUAs such a Mutt, Alpine, Wanderlust etc.. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 06:04:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D298F34129C for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:04:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dXDN50RVz48NX for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:04:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: khhy2PUVM1nKHOuNe9iT4bA.5r44OgtoheIJLX5yJx3unnuBnMmf39bnkHvqVEq xpypFhsq5KULnBHTOIMlA09ZQQPt1V2oKHtmSWqdBi0vg3kwEvWVJiQP7VjThBZSjx4N6gsgld9S qa.mByBR.67FqpQNrQiLLZYPZ8N.7afO93FTjNB6eeMkRCjrIRezxjVue2INSfMBYgUnZ5k9mpy9 1RCoz1_YdwafxBTkDtTHkhJNMo1OWSfxJBDuvHOOhMuWH4X7KncKDWvhsLQ9By1iaubZHwYaXoQb sHLTo9EXKTrO3rAov7Rfjg1uVQqCwbrnW2AXqGrXUA8LLOF6o07JQ0nXsawjc.aOi7tT0R_hnApN FpXoN8VYGa43r0qCtDZu4x0fLBOLg1Oqy1VGviDbX_DpmTHZ0_P.Vkc6hDsqmsXyPuObC3f5OfQn xRFv6rOOM_xKaMKWkFay6uu72NWxKlnSFhaZXoAlLzr5_dWpCRTNRDAikjPXgGB7Sxutkl42eBHR 2FnhCkTJoUE4g3.yHrGZi6hqhfAbOPhHDb7J13wjvHRb2qhq9MpJ1LJQzeNI5PmWoFS0vmsO0j0T Sn_cnRl4T5geEFcHznq87P.xPY03ZPqMLRd9EdHil0.FnHZxE.e_1CmYLdAb398N0gD8MwEUAGP. BCWmXxbOr7s2GmjTcQ70jn_6mhKZSJxqjbMwl2aTwT9zubWmEL_XJ7aCfZzOQgJqn7bmrESM_HVm rBXkQLXd63XMb_zPgn8Z6EfqmOp2rippbVd1zMEkoHfhAnlPLAPl2v6AfnBtfC6ZPMWpb1RhpGM1 6QLJ5rU_28L3ElNNgV8dGTAmLpqOQw24FsZ9jXp78WfSbP3LfLb7shieo8Dc2e.6wJV5AImZd1o8 XU2pFmPfyWSp2riLELkSrvDb9C4EFQctvZxlVRrDtIPJ__V73x8_fvoWxf5jCrW_Q0CbHuyGBn5L 53XTxPLF_ovk4MY6zZEXjE5iKYZd9K45RPl.unn.kTUlR6xKZvXLwqxsmmuYeQkS3XazxHG2.q1y leuHUoJX9s4uDK1gE9u.CWhe4nLcE3X1uSFnQzYSjQAtMSR0A7VdR.BqHiCZHb4c2Yb6jEnQQ7pc rRwIWlLZzr8WFGkAaf6mB7eZ4ATmEZIcXKPYwhsmrYdJH6WqsLcpJNUAJqBd0Q6AfNhXFEMkk7xH H..U9JxRlyF8C7L0k_s8mgF.lO.ruzPg0hLl8fMV.HkRkX.5.J8zK.jBB6YpW7P.cufpGmrJyzke dg8x4m_wuz_SGxHawjuyw29pEWjuoBilQzOWluda080VNIUQT7I9oVfFFZusSX.TyD.qKpAx0xCq GgeBKBnlwCJRK.LKzo_6v72FEpr5I_.Mhvsl3RY1ruCkLkZTlAvEPRi3j.Y415iTIPtjszVVsvzb jVvgxbUvkfQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:04:51 +0000 Received: by smtp412.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 29ba0ad4c189262e041f7c0bb2f7d4c7; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:04:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:04:49 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <20200605080449.4322e760@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dXDN50RVz48NX X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.200:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.407]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.200:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:04:53 -0000 On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 16:47:54 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >It seems as though with an mua you can set this up. An MUA does everything for you, but if you like you could use any editor and use command line to send and retrieve emails. Instead of sendmail you probably want to use a replacement such as msmtp, but better use an MUA. All the server related things are provided by your ISP. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 06:20:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F5D341462 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:20:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam10olkn2060.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.41.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dXZ75Kxwz4B1Y for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ejrTQQ35SXosAA8gCM1G1t8f6+56ddBcQ2hApMJ6sVPCu0yc1swObeBAyz8+S9WD0Zq3HxZ/W3A92QL5LNWE43/iekXG7JgfAJ4hShRjMH3PzveqvOyhmju/jUW5MNGcngZrTwpYrPlCJR30lR61DGlbsBVqEHcoik64m1NLyZjtIwdIK/uKCcGnrjWRM5EcvgJIII5UHVvE8lF1KT6gkA1cI/HUdzumcWAKSmtia7JtkgmD+2zntZBTuhLhQr8I/T8jFPYDi0cdjVCvnsVEb/D1PryMA59+QD+K13/HzTzWk/EfzXDL2+mEkbPFS3YfsD9GEcHdV0+I+kA0Mul8Cg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:20:14 +0000 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e8f::51) by BN7NAM10FT004.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e8f::414) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3021.23 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:20:14 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:12F4898642F77D7A841C63F89A3836791FA930AC770CE00DC29C763E5EE2608F; UpperCasedChecksum:9A8A26140ECD37F83FAD2E2C21DD751998C640EDB7757A517DE33FC074721BC7; SizeAsReceived:9675; Count:46 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e]) by CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.018; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:20:14 +0000 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:20:11 -0600 From: Brandon helsley To: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions , Ralf Mardorf Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> Subject: Re: Minimal skills X-ClientProxiedBy: CY4PR19CA0037.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:103::23) To CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:910:7a::16) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.39] (184.96.131.37) by CY4PR19CA0037.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:103::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.19 via Frontend Transport; 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=F8GJ9/HB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.41.60 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.58 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.015]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.06)[-1.057]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.51)[-1.511]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.41.60:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.41.60:from]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[freebsd.org,rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:20:17 -0000 >An MUA does everything for you, but if you like you could use any editor and use command line to send and retrieve emails. Instead of sendmail you probably want to use a replacement such as msmtp, but better use an MUA. All the server related things are provided by your ISP. I see, but don't I need to configure sendmail or postfix to have access to my mailboxes offline? Or can I just transfer email using mbox with thunderbird and have it displayed on the command line without an MTA? offline. > > On Jun 5, 2020 at 12:05 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 16:47:54 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: >It seems as though with an mua you can set this up. An MUA does everything for you, but if you like you could use any editor and use command line to send and retrieve emails. Instead of sendmail you probably want to use a replacement such as msmtp, but better use an MUA. All the server related things are provided by your ISP. _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 06:22:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE82B3417E5 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bjb@sourcerer.ca) Received: from pmta11.teksavvy.com (pmta11.teksavvy.com [76.10.157.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.teksavvy.com", Issuer "DigiCert SHA2 High Assurance Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dXcY4gQZz4BSN for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bjb@sourcerer.ca) IronPort-SDR: /JaMgNswnc1S24dC/EwLBtUeG9HP8mSIiw1zAFWaX002MVG96D17Ni6PqSZUrClBOwLZ91WCQE dzjejTqu+Mbw== X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2HVCAAX5Nle/5eACkxMGhwBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?HAQESAQEEBAEBQIFKgxpUAV6HboU4iAcQmgKBaAsBAQEOIwkBAgQBAYREAoI?= =?us-ascii?q?vJTgTAgMBAQsBAQEFAQEBAQEGBAIChkQMhFIsW28BBAE6MxELCzURPBsGgzq?= =?us-ascii?q?CXCAPPLFOgTSEAoZ8gTiMYAaCAIMjfj6CZwQagRQBCwYCAYYUBI50lFCQMQc?= =?us-ascii?q?DglmINZA5LoJnjh+NNpp2lDKBaoEJcIEFgyUIRxkNkEwXiGOFXiUDMAI1AgY?= =?us-ascii?q?IAQEDCVkBAYxXgkUBAQ?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2HVCAAX5Nle/5eACkxMGhwBAQEBAQEHAQESAQEEBAEBQ?= =?us-ascii?q?IFKgxpUAV6HboU4iAcQmgKBaAsBAQEOIwkBAgQBAYREAoIvJTgTAgMBAQsBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEFAQEBAQEGBAIChkQMhFIsW28BBAE6MxELCzURPBsGgzqCXCAPPLFOgTSEA?= =?us-ascii?q?oZ8gTiMYAaCAIMjfj6CZwQagRQBCwYCAYYUBI50lFCQMQcDglmINZA5LoJnj?= =?us-ascii?q?h+NNpp2lDKBaoEJcIEFgyUIRxkNkEwXiGOFXiUDMAI1AgYIAQEDCVkBAYxXg?= =?us-ascii?q?kUBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,475,1583211600"; d="scan'208";a="137206011" Received: from sourcerer.ca (HELO froggie.stuffed.animals) ([76.10.128.151]) by smtp11.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256; 05 Jun 2020 02:22:19 -0400 Received: from blueeyes.stuffed.animals ([192.168.111.205]:46350) by froggie.stuffed.animals with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jh5k9-0001tq-LM for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:22:19 -0400 Received: from bjb by blueeyes.stuffed.animals with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jh5k9-00065B-D0 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:22:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 02:22:17 -0400 From: "Brenda J. Butler" To: freebsd-questions Message-ID: <20200605062217.cjtkdgwqwqqienct@blueeyes.stuffed.animals> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.111.205 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bjb@sourcerer.ca X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on froggie.stuffed.animals X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Subject: Re: Mininal skills X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Tue, 02 Aug 2016 21:08:31 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on froggie.stuffed.animals) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dXcY4gQZz4BSN X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bjb@sourcerer.ca designates 76.10.157.34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bjb@sourcerer.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.898]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:pmta11.teksavvy.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sourcerer.ca]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.967]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.709]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[76.10.157.34:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5645, ipnet:76.10.128.0/19, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:22:22 -0000 On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 03:14:51AM -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Great advice from all of you!!! I really feel like I'm getting > started. I'll check out your instructions and see where I stand with > my understanding of the OS. I have been wanting to learn networking > but my asperations are very limited when I have only one NIC. In the > future ill make the formatting of my messages correct as well. At > least I'll try. The person who had the firewall suggestions has answered your "what I should learn, and by the way I'm interested in networking" question very well. As for "what is shell programming" ... it's the same as regular programming but written in a language that doesn't need to be compiled. Often the shell program calls on other programs to do the work. So learning "shell programming" is about more than learning the shell language - it is also about learning enough of those other little utilities to be able to do something useful in the shell. Granted, as time goes by, there is more and more functionality built right in to the shell - but there are a few utilities that are pretty much indispensable. There are the standards ls cat less date time seq sort uniq strings grep diff patch od dd cut tr and suchlike, then there are other shells and script interpreters like sed awk perl python A couple of those are both script interpreters and programming languages. The line between them can be a bit blurry. The lists above are only short examples lists - really the quantity of things to learn is astounding. And while there is more stuff to learn as time goes by (both more utilities, and more features in each utility), at least most of what you have already learned in unix-world is still applicable - truly a "build on the shoulders" situation rather than a "throw out everything you ever knew and start all over", "groundhog day" kind of situation. So yes, I also recommend reading the "old" Kernighan and Ritchie C book (I agree, 2nd edition is the earliest edition you should get of that book). It's not like math becomes invalid because it gets old. C++ is pretty much a superset of C, so learning C by itself is not a "waste of time". It's a stepping stone to learning C++, as well as a useful end goal by itself. Get familiar with the man pages for the above as well (I mean the utilities - for the shells it is better to read tutorial style books) and try out the commands. Some man pages are longer than others : -) Read the man page for man. By the way: "man" stands for "manual". And, you can read shorter man pages as a way to learn the utility, but longer man pages are generally organized as references rather than tutorials and are not great for learning from scratch. To answer your questions about diff and patch - there was already a good answer in this email thread. But I also made a show about that on hacker public radio. The show notes repeat the show verbatim so you don't have to listen to the show - all the info is in the notes. https://www.hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=2619 I go into a lot of detail about the terminology of diff and patch, and what they can be used for in a programming workflow - suitable for beginners. You probably only need to read the introduction unless you want to read the bit after, about quilt, which is another utility for managing patches. I describe everything from first principles, esp in the introduction which is the part you are probably most interested in. Another show I did talked at a beginner level about processes and how processes communicate with each other in the shell. This show was talking about how virtualenv and virtualenvwrapper work. But that doesn't matter - have a look at the material and you will learn a bit about processes, the process hierarchy and the different ways information gets into and out of programs. That second show is at: http://hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=2322 I talk about Linux in those shows - but 9/10ths or even 99/100ths of what I talk about is applicable to the BSDs. The common thread is the shared Unix heritage. ----------- In case you are curious: I use mutt for my MUA (aka mail reader) and within mutt I use emacs as my text editor when actually composing emails. Emacs has facilities for reflowing the paragraphs (even when there are quote markers at the left). Contrary to what someone else said in this email thread, I recommend learning vi (or the basic parts of vim). Sooner or later you will be on a machine that does not have any editor and you will have to use vi. Best to learn the basics of vi. You can continue to master it, or choose another editor for your main work environment, but you should know a enough vi to edit config files or scritps, save them and exit. And keep asking questions! bjb From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 06:27:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582663415F5 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:27:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dXkF1vDxz4Bsc for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:27:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MYvLi-1jTo9H3J0y-00Uv6v; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:27:11 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:27:11 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605082711.e4e5323d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200605075653.6f230147@archlinux> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200605003308.3015108b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605075653.6f230147@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wK2QDUZfAt0yYYArTSDepBekouHiNoZ0VOFzQK2+rfyS0LiKylL LNb0WS/aIu6ILvl5ZZ7chf7KY2UkLgxq39B6IPPC0C49PuOZIwto5U3Gp8hj6zjAhvzrkBZ 9fucHTyiAdd+Jl5yZXJu2GUYDzFKzSZX91oiXkLg6pPRkXh1xfkLfmv19EzMaL88uPG5Oxn /rUh9IM0ylSmcler4xgEw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:u715Qi06dfU=:Er1oH/AikP9V026cIRnAnx AEvZ+pQ5FoCz63yP82Ej2IIMfrgKYfpXN+OOmQI6/F4FyowW2wlpEyFyNKLAVW1xThBLgV8ig XdL/xoCjIicFTcy+zT2DZjKEf6GZ++h6igqjUw1MNo17Jmpfou772sI8K4wvWNysRqucPzz4i j/bsmdiTvggHuTLKVWeK2A9nVfCRwk/kiMtxx5faYDhTBWxBwLzqXELUHrm7cf8vDjDf8Yvo4 EddozgSp1r8YUgmO9R4jpVd6nHsiAUGObbul6xFFtdMsp70PzquNaD9MX/OnVMsExFzl3/lWt 6a58Mf/wHP9COGJ04IAHRHsSoArsY5r2FTT597D7RBOzduaUOzYjC4vZUF/N7eJdF6x7bHpMF CrxKP5PnRZPQ7fJZs/Xo2oEZSX60bPpd8o+ZFxmZCSEpMxdymSkN4rPctt4N0zABDHs2ng/s5 5wroMxFUHRBSCG6Mxgt+aXOo/tplujPj/sICBvnGeD6n9NYWjg4Bhg7diiVe0ERMEogxnkbH4 Z1KlpUYKuKpcuh7BDMn3JgKMKo8fi+G2tK+M4810rlwJX3Nk3qoJdY8/f3gSINodoyTGfaUJ6 n6rOociZdZbwJAKVoK5qZyGIQ8DuvwECPAAAHh22DGEIbr90KqXoqxm/xMIuNNKs+CDxu6b0k DHmfqPjNXZo313UvTGoGIvKDRNZm2iWFGveqBx3w6S3f0L8owh124OIlOvfU9jo3sVqRTgDCV X/igb9ymKXbiXkXWPs/LcYeMwVqPwbS/7uuvFuklAXJDhx61wtUQvAETKDhwM60HmXBFc6W/I 3vtBrSsgG2XeX6LQewlRKVcUHoPBrOgA/InHcbqunaZ9NWnFvgYwV5P8IB94RMSUJrJMqEe X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dXkF1vDxz4Bsc X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.40)[-0.397]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.75)[-0.748]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.35)[0.350]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:27:18 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 07:56:53 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:33:08 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > >If you have IMAP support, you can even try / use multiple MUAs and > >see what works best for you, without requiring to have multiple > >mail accounts and program-individual local mailboxes. > > I share my POP accounts with different MUAs. All, excepted of one MUA > leave the mails on the server. On my desktop PC I store 100,000th > of mails duplicated by two MUAs. It's not an issue related to disk > space. On my iPads I delete the mails. It isn't really much work to set > up several MUAs, even when being in favour of POP. The problem is not duplicate files, the problem _might_ be that, in case of IMAP, you want to mark messages as read or delete them in _one_ client, and all other clients should "update" the status accordingly (so you don't see all messages as "new message" in all the other clients even though you have read and deleted the message in one client already). IMAP + several clients means one centralized "repository" of messages (on the server), and with sychronized local storage you can get rid of duplicate files, if that should be a problem. It's technically possible to do this with POP3 / SMTP as well. One hypothetical obstruction could be a storage limit on the server ("You cannot receive new messages, your mailbox is full!"). > FWIW nowadays I'm using Claws and Evolution as my main MUAs, but I also > run Sylpheed and the iPad pseudo-MUA. > > Claws issue is the "> ", this results in "> > ", while it should become > ">> ", so for Claws I'm using ">". Yes, there is a difference between those quoting characters. :-) > I'm not using HTML. If for some reason HTML is wanted, I recommend to > test Evolution. Thunderbird and Sylpheed can generate HTML if needed, but why would somebody _want_ that? > Apart from blind users who read Braille, I can't understand why users > are in favour of text-based MUAs such a Mutt, Alpine, Wanderlust > etc.. Simplicity, the ability to script, and access via SSH might be good reasons. Furthermore, the option to automate things is often easier with TUI (or real CLI) MUAs than trying to do this with GUI MUAs. However, for regular use, I personally prefer a GUI MUA, but thanks to the ability of choice, every user can select and change the MUAs he wants to use. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 06:28:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D997C341BCC for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:28:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dXlM1D3cz4Bh2 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 06:28:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id d5so9060887ios.9 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:28:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uhiBw0N383kNJh6tJinj9Pz3qk3xr6Lk/Px76gy9EUo=; b=HCCNBteB1LAg4qCvPJg0DK9Lry44MyC+6TXl/vell4QK6bVjd0fYFshbA5ls+t0juh NG/2nvo+IPagCp7z4MjkypPi5NVZeQnORiehjZYSGbFw4bW+Ve4Ce6oTSeGnZF9lW/GT tp+NPhdP/I11B2fEg4UNEECxaVBILOoL4FZcgUo9k491Iq4SmhyRu+Wb6mdGk3dR6JXp gieM0QIW2HCl3Dw2OPr6AiMhHY3AxTgktR0WAmu6C+4ZjYkYWm9iGZIu2q8q/Hk4+bHL Wt0o9f7Eojo2LRSjxJ/OeNGJwTJ5ZLqJ4t4oQnY9dJq80GjbZTWIDPaytDprM6UemggV rhmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uhiBw0N383kNJh6tJinj9Pz3qk3xr6Lk/Px76gy9EUo=; b=uSE7HVOwzh2P9HFdOzuB+s3G1nNyH3/zj/ohVJnGTudO/+IGQl6CbNCSX3CVhHpSdZ GfKK+rWyqPNFsLFXOo3FxsvLMV7GfeJE5ofbHulk8sx6kR0Jm4BKYigLzB2E2e+BqCsg iJVdztUKqVO2lp4binPjQNSv5JLlje3tSKWl95/inlEpMRMf1uDtGu2cEcrMin0eDaiJ tjjUVQiE6o3jCrnO18TB+JTbz81PjeSzvLaPzSi1Tcz2wCWeVQ6mnLh7hFqnAcNfQH5z S5H5ZlV/B7I1mjLUkrv0vsUnjqAifoq5MuQc8Xkj9OjZE0C6wHd8SgRk4P+ROnp4/C1j nPbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318wZjXCkIaNnfpgl4MR4TJnECATe2aVdekozfovM7tdKWLDCPc QaQPc1PnNPpx58fo/zENdwFNp3XfvKn6NDa5Kr0zaPYTggc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCSJroxbIBx7YjfmU9kN0wQtX9IGqf49zsDrOpTtikNfGdYNPZyAS4rChPX5HS4m3gUsez2VUsxsEe9ygq/QI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5915:: with SMTP id n21mr7192573iob.103.1591338493973; Thu, 04 Jun 2020 23:28:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200605062217.cjtkdgwqwqqienct@blueeyes.stuffed.animals> In-Reply-To: <20200605062217.cjtkdgwqwqqienct@blueeyes.stuffed.animals> From: Michael Schuster Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:28:02 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: "Brenda J. Butler" Cc: freebsd-questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dXlM1D3cz4Bh2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=HCCNBteB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of michaelsprivate@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=michaelsprivate@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.036]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.86)[-0.864]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 06:28:15 -0000 On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:22 AM Brenda J. Butler wrote: > > As for "what is shell programming" ... it's the same as regular programming > but written in a language that doesn't need to be compiled. Often the > shell program calls on other programs to do the work. So learning "shell > programming" is about more than learning the shell language - it is > also about learning enough of those other little utilities to be > able to do something useful in the shell. > One of the best books on the subject (in my experience) is "The Unix Programming Environment" by Kernighan and Pike - written in 1984, it is still a good text to teach you some of the fundamentals of the ... unix programming environment ;-). I highly recommend it. regards Michael -- Michael Schuster http://recursiveramblings.wordpress.com/ recursion, n: see 'recursion' From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 07:33:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B44342F27 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 07:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dZBt4Wrbz4KGQ for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 07:33:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N9MlI-1ivYDW4404-015GIF; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 09:33:39 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:33:38 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605093338.8a831d58.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:07+Gk8tPQ7hCcXMEoxGA0KTcDm5qc+isQLBUjHI4scGpRY7HSA+ n7+U/06dcmANzMdSuIVMCncT85kRm24x876aZMLQmPeLDZXimuRJ8tF0bYCJiHPZRow/ZPK 9PsrHzh2WVSg9IXvrS6ruy//qL06/DecWDi9CArirwSq5Sowo3fABwaRMLpmhsxwOLbHEI0 dFc5X/f5sDFfPazaRsRcA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:u+mXsWJG3L4=:DPYghLBbowoob1ln7Cyn48 /R9BndICW+KKZlLGmQVErO9Ma2vk91Oe8atVlyxQNw5NQbOrEpVfeRHnUiih/oj60nw6oMaGa xphwk8uHQ9UOqDQY7e3yQeQvU4ADN28meabK81g6H9D/ZDyPQ4jdP/1lHC1ybR0+Y3FxLX+QX FAKbcJsvHZjQ03QLgMMqoFC6ZekrQKoHHQB+pgQHwbJavqug8ddwIFKi6VXyz6k9jQQh9mrrg rRm7Cz9dLbt3ZAMeG0dvS3yyzInoGWHcb+YPJzDyclGCJHNbQumJxHsS9y+i5d1WtL6Qd//la K9bUuirhj56oIyyDv3E3drWRHgo/xJepzNi8whlfl5XURbFhDQCjjkIVok2ff9FuD2MlqcpYa 0QN5yxDYMRlRrJ6Y9U6npggRXQtOz1OaCheceaJFLNQmQrUEaDQSQynjUNkH/hASloPsMRhFs LwiZ73LeyrOXbivgmLpcm0bC75gaK1fmY6z6iCgVyye/zH4vSvmubxd1THu4yV/uBiCrO/kf6 2FceStBqjRAguIefeuBfOcjGVlVg98ZQH1UsmVVC5RAXraGwwhG6Qq97/O67e/ntK1nHCFk/r 6VHNeStnDH81P39YUr1lLQc7D47fr+aSAVvi191ltvezxiptVU4AFwXGj11b73jmPdPFJyflK V8eDh5z8cXtxyPzcvK+yAENCGTrNfxcPCerWxzfPNbHeDZPsR0BBIvU+ilTJ/q8zpilchRH4G HF9PyOfhIT3a8PXjcRUIeCDqyZ6etXEFCAFSjEfXPpbVxwFCMKZDXkOTVUgHYLdN+UzSaV0lS KYc2ZFHO+G+Zt65JoE6yN1JCLPaw0N+jpFjD5YTCF020xI2ryofX6j27y9NUF5Y3JQfrj9ldc MCAUr4dCKaZBu/JFKO7g== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dZBt4Wrbz4KGQ X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.99 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.55)[-0.546]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.896]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.04)[0.036]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 07:33:44 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 00:20:11 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > I see, but don't I need to configure sendmail or postfix to have > access to my mailboxes offline? Correct - this is not needed. The MUA manages this for you. You don't need to deal with sendmail or install postfix. MUAs like Thunderbird will make your mailboxes available offline, and only synchronize your changes (you delete a message in the MUA - the MUA tells the server to delete the message on the server, and deletes the locally cached file, for example). > Or can I just transfer email using mbox with thunderbird and have > it displayed on the command line without an MTA? offline. That doesn't sound useful. You could use fetchmail to get your messages via IMAP. This results in a mbox-formatted file, typically located in your local user's mail queue, /var/mail/. >From this file, other mail programs can read, "incorporate from spool" - in fact, that's what I'm doing with fetchmail + Sylpheed. You still need your MUA configured for IMAP or SMTP to _send_ messages, though, so splitting those functions is not optimal. (Sidenote: I'm not doing this because I like it, but because I have changed ISPs and can no longer submit messages myself though their MX. If I setup a new system, I use IMAP only, from the MUA.) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 08:11:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BCB343F15 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:11:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000857a570.8d31c5380af4656174cb94938a790ff9@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49db2Y5lvbz4P4c for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:11:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000857a570.8d31c5380af4656174cb94938a790ff9@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591344694; x=1593936694; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Zh8HRm7Mp+16lKwoUASxnI7wyxXAxFMaEThiSBBca14=; b=b87rQcJTwPK/I8CxDxR5yFgc8CMRA26X9uPlLPOFmmRPFK7MW+chydDIyCZbKkrBwuNsReHZgdQ0pHCUayEaHvJipozb8AF06fqvKHPDwtrThU1hT6Dvn62XjujkFcmPeunf+MhP4aNKMOnJs4/jkY2XBBZJpX5qUjOybUk7EP0= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDg1N2E1NzAuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:11:29 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:11:28 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jh7Rn-000MDH-9Z; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 09:11:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:11:27 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: dwilde1@gmail.com, freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605091127.68ba4aada0a6b3511de24df6@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200605035443.0eb7e60a.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605024331.51b34130.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605030925.e4194867.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605035443.0eb7e60a.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49db2Y5lvbz4P4c X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=b87rQcJT; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c1000857a570.8d31c5380af4656174cb94938a790ff9@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c1000857a570.8d31c5380af4656174cb94938a790ff9@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.09 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.976]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.39)[-0.393]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000857a570.8d31c5380af4656174cb94938a790ff9@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000857a570.8d31c5380af4656174cb94938a790ff9@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:11:35 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 03:54:43 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > Seriously, I found that conversation quality (both in the audio > parameters and in the content) of smartphones is lower than with > nonsmart mobile phones and regular "landline" phones; There have been smartphones with good sound quality, mostly made by Motorola and hard to find. > I don't > know why. I'm old, so I will never understand what makes those > things interesting, I find them just plain boring. I do find it convenient to have my phone, camera, satnav, music player and wifi analyser all in one smallish package. I don't use any of them very often so if they weren't all in one package I'd probably wind up not carrying any of them. > I mean, you > can't even easily program them, what kind of computers are those? To me it's a pocket toolbox. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 08:48:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75AD7344E8E for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:48:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesleypeng@aol.com) Received: from sonic313-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic313-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.133.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dbsY31rmz4TTf for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:48:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesleypeng@aol.com) X-YMail-OSG: d59XQ8YVM1k2sxX6OwabxxK3oidY_VguYjHacIQph1JNmvkyIAmsXHHJSRmspco kz58lD.YGULMQEQMLxLq8LngElAQHeX.eeCqKXAJM5FeRubNVUil9fva0QZRVnYnPYmSj6HjqC0R jjeT_FJvwRW2RbUIIcxnEbY5FZrsLDfOIVjfNwDBIKYmvmHOOOHDrAQ9Sb7kUDOHVa9jbpZNynrT 63gexFjSmbrAdGcPPMAU.Nyb6T9v3DqNG8LTpsMEufETjkiMhMAZXhPrbmDlu7aw5PSO1XrbaA6T nP6Rc8evtC9o9ahGinEJwPBRJ3PzlysbxKzDqlsdQkKT3BLMtw_4gJEelqdQvblB6hN7ubVTufiu ekXlg466Ow_m9M9cQ0mn0oUFLPvwyO65uGbqNw1FLYov6fXOBbqj4oNYtI0mCmnkBKIspY7Qo2w8 l.Re5KesRbbLB2X9bUkAly9eUdWFOnGSzJUb74EXlRmoIh.JoZfL6O9_thAGcKWaw2uxMuRPl8Ja iB8YO24f7aOrY4hrvG5tIjrOgwTunmhDqtwIcb7tMQZ672JONinFcCMEhJiVtK7UsLLROVpqtPmE HbRy1B30sCBuBTflY0smUpehBbmUt9HJFk8aBDXshqV5DTVSrZcyXDsDBy5.AIVk92UEKwofuyUp egLIv8ywXFwY1OnJza3f_9qZ2clxDstjmayapx68ykMo3TveGK5.FMrAyKstPKkG1CKGMdO99Tty jtvHMbcrHobSem9MSlG6naHP0lURHbRkY4gLQWZgFHqoaNefu54r5Oac5LYz2iJIqSCIDC1BH_aV ygcXPTKeYa2sbLzFR16ltX0ePprGerx_cMeyNg6pX_TTTB0MxwIJ9UvEVkqhbD0yc_T6dokjo4Y2 GyNluSyFvzLKUn6KjSQU8d_yrKTkOkhjdudCH0s0pmPrPMe_Tq_7Y.VzBLfDeMIge35aUWdFTjrt 2XdC3DKgHS_mlEatRg_WIUsY6j5BAPDHwL9sZZssxI9B_drFflpzPJ2kB7r_pt_UscF54qJeeL5n QSdq_ULyDxwOxL9t6ChMYOfYE096MNcqDIoMukL7V46XvIM8XXgK2j_p5FV7xE3D70jC9hlupWAj sOOWUAX4nEOH9cNhbSgrLwbc7Z8dhZJ.C8Q2Bf7MB3r.hwTCH4By0Wj5gWCXwiiBR5MdwAGM_wth F8MsgF5D5f1wPEz77gLLYMsiq2Oj5oLumBcimRfiy8W8Pw0yHHrsBjpf.wYd8uxo46FEYaEHYNRL cuBZ4QgXx9ATP2FYdL45MX8wmhxGicEXEtF618rnKkfTj4c9WnmEMIE1u.WxOm405unsMWGTMYBm fNZ3mxtj6kC_wucCIjwWS2xichB7Fpp7ttU8dlaY- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:48:48 +0000 Received: by smtp414.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 184f6afef0d77866651167c838577945; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:48:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604225938.3baf5056ebd397f4a4acf81c@sohara.org> <20200605003308.3015108b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200605075653.6f230147@archlinux> <20200605082711.e4e5323d.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Wesley Peng Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 16:48:39 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200605082711.e4e5323d.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16037 hermes_aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dbsY31rmz4TTf X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aol.com:s=a2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[aol.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.006]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:74.6.128.0/21]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aol.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aol.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.6.133.125:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.338]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[aol.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26101, ipnet:74.6.128.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[74.6.133.125:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:48:50 -0000 Polytropon wrote: >> Apart from blind users who read Braille, I can't understand why users >> are in favour of text-based MUAs such a Mutt, Alpine, Wanderlust >> etc.. > Simplicity, the ability to script, and access via SSH might > be good reasons. Furthermore, the option to automate things > is often easier with TUI (or real CLI) MUAs than trying to > do this with GUI MUAs. However, for regular use, I personally > prefer a GUI MUA, but thanks to the ability of choice, every > user can select and change the MUAs he wants to use. And please see this resources: https://useplaintext.email/ regards. -- Wesley Peng wesleypeng@aol.com From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 11:27:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860A4347C73 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 11:27:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x242.google.com (mail-lj1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dgNW2chrz4nDp for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 11:27:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x242.google.com with SMTP id 9so11256766ljc.8 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:27:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ZJLKlSsWWm3QpBZnNRqRpG455Wr52W3Bjlt+qphNxpU=; b=IvS/4JkbY8FWZW1FY1mtBl0p4wY5ilvSuNWXqzqverpVassbEzSVyErZzMx88EUzHF TRplogfaul3+gANjnoCiflRPRi9c6VnAvROpS9eN/PrVJDR7uOniSZRwqtgL/yH/7gGU W4EPA6OzfY38+ViQcIPIlNmD4Y5p/+1pMWrz8YFtEtL3uP3FNtiIlJc8tNhc3xOhYsm0 ECTQhhmYr7YR7M3i2LRvm6ey+4ulvWW886EhyWd4gmJkA37+Tmh1vJd6kzvMbFl7upbt 88rDdhhCf/uuBDgcTc1etD5UAm2XNqI1+JxOamX0KwK2xWCzfhLApQmL6FKHWpXFBpyU eVVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZJLKlSsWWm3QpBZnNRqRpG455Wr52W3Bjlt+qphNxpU=; b=QmNarnGty+UZGt5hBR3wDMH5gwlu64CiaepiQwCfLcvQE30zb7QJ+xJhULGh7QvV3q rrRfnDYd3p1EYzihHueoJfQCo+dOjr+LsR8lFz1WZ9YY5Ndh/DLVt5WV+SIRR65SvRmf sdeG9JApzQKpUYTU6KZcG+EdCyL1G1uxu10CMs8o4a48TX0PWgFIKIa3aYrVbrtlAY6N DZsmgIAI18xg4Qiyyn/sXhyPLCK/FklFQu5MbfxqQvZJqgpq0YokLtRowZXWgKKPlpH+ 9dkffON3damJ74ufH4SeFpIo5pKbqtS6UX9QPST1TguD/4BgKTWjJSe/0DK1q19BJHCM y7aA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ixwtC6at8ky+zyG+eFjbxduvGb0SS+1nGA2hp/yS0Izc8/A4j hNvUKKpWI/0iTH3jMYFiIy67Hp/wP9RjwPGiCRI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxC9l4wCnQo+tdffz04iDvUemV2uRlP+tfiD+uRjVMa7ZJcEAIBJr9Xg4BfdDOCV2WtiQ5tkLEPSVA8tZYpipQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8255:: with SMTP id j21mr4450201ljh.85.1591356441898; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 04:27:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200605062217.cjtkdgwqwqqienct@blueeyes.stuffed.animals> From: Donald Wilde Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:27:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mininal skills To: Michael Schuster Cc: "Brenda J. Butler" , freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dgNW2chrz4nDp X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=IvS/4Jkb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.60 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.39)[0.395]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.955]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::242:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 11:27:24 -0000 On 6/4/20, Michael Schuster wrote: > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:22 AM Brenda J. Butler wrote: > >> >> As for "what is shell programming" ... it's the same as regular >> programming >> but written in a language that doesn't need to be compiled. Often the >> shell program calls on other programs to do the work. So learning "shell >> programming" is about more than learning the shell language - it is >> also about learning enough of those other little utilities to be >> able to do something useful in the shell. >> > > One of the best books on the subject (in my experience) is "The Unix > Programming Environment" by Kernighan and Pike - written in 1984, it is > still a good text to teach you some of the fundamentals of the ... unix > programming environment ;-). > I highly recommend it. [snip] I agree! Very good book! Another good one is 'UNIX Network Programming' by Stevens, and soon enough you'll be ready for 'Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment', also by Stevens (Sorry, I'm a 'dead tree' addict!). One important thing to add in regards to program execution -- covered in the books but deserves mention so you can get going faster . While compiled binaries on 'NIX systems like FreeBSD are distributed in ELF format (which you can look up if you are interested), files intended for a scripting language such as a shell have a very special sequence of characters the shell looks for at the beginning: '#!', also called 'she-bang'. These MUST be the first two characters in the text file, followed by the location of the program you want to use to execute the file, such as '#!/usr/local/bin/ruby27' for the latest version of Ruby. You can also specify a different shell binary as your program. For example, I execute a file with '#!/bin/sh' with the simple Bourne shell 'sh' from my root prompt when root's normal shell (on FreeBSD) is tcsh. The syntax of each shell's language is somewhat different, so take care. Just dive in with your text editor, create a few files, and try to run them. If you haven't already, use 'chmod + x myfile' to make them run directly from the prompt, like: ./myscript the period-slash combo tells your shell that the current directory is where to find that file; otherwise, it'll merrily look for your program in /bin, /usr/bin, etc. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 12:05:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE6CF3294F4 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:05:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dhDb3b6nz4sBG for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:05:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1591358734; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=/wYVAPw0I5SWJMrd3hK2iDGq8a8=; b=KXMHkq3z7l4ejyyrvo+EXTxLjx5xb1yFIqU9wwko8Jzera6HRFDrjuHL9DYwnTgz orcIgytHAcXDqYgkuXiqqjySHK7+qr3VAx2k4VD6ICnBH0nWO0dYucGPUmxbvlj5 KW3mkJspbnlwFnshz02HJQ+x1fuf70mXeedxXtqYI/GSbKEaYjKNtZamxxTp+2W2 J3eyGrttX5FnUxxqEylzKyP2PzghDfY2ICXGu4B7g+AUp7mOvIU/lofys68HgVL1 yz4qMjnyYLZFFecpMfkAmDuVAjgmrgUE1UsyMpKW2DzPBeOgSXV/8nAx+BBvUG3/ G9qcjpz3w4aZfW8xfGCrlA==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J+PUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=MS6nKDfNCDSbp8Ab5fwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:33987] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 53/1B-42436-D053ADE5; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:05:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Kurt Hackenberg Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills In-Reply-To: References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dhDb3b6nz4sBG X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=KXMHkq3z; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.17 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.015]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.05)[-1.055]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 12:05:36 -0000 Kurt Hackenberg writes: > I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if > you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also > an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer > language. I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful programming language better suited for teaching a beginning programmer of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code base. I do agree that if one intends to do substantial programming in the current environment ... learning an object-oriented language is a really good idea. Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 12:14:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C20D3299E4 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:14:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dhQt0Ymmz4tSv for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:14:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mq2vU-1jButY2vr8-00nCnj; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 14:14:22 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:14:22 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Robert Huff Cc: Kurt Hackenberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:n8eYepJ/teTkgT9j3EIPCinhfmARppHcLmV2m2T3HUhpv0GJ0zh T93dCu1vAAK1GpEA7a5X4pZj+2jb0Qw6SgJxpUk/D4wTXY86m7Jz4eTKrRd0ipKE2RVahQh X1eGBwuIIpXVHifsfX+cTBQXiTMphDHVHVGd8G5vB5YDoYOh+KvDtV+RSM506+VuDSODJIo UpW+RVctTNw63cVDYBSaw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:9K025XTGLsY=:cZpe6Jo4vZQ7ZQJ03XPuGc 9NKRLhWBUAkK2RJxf8AbCFIxoJAUeJfEL0inKeHg9QlZt4957s7Y4ZC5zWOG7dm5WPSIG7grg RxzEYR8ABKk7OQaMzeFwBIDQDHdKqJXUizRv6fh7zg6DDlsJdzvLmJm/leQUQgfY5t9MIUAG2 tTAJ+/LkyjHxdKF1wW9pGwHadiklymJxhUiMJdXLN/hYhJvGhhsLwp+HvqtuMqQ2v+CWH9l8i NmDS+p3TFnT39zZgFVDiSOhe/rmq1U0gzBX2bEwEfHypsxl1BhynApIgl1gO98K8YBTd74ob3 cy+wLI/M+uURT79l2oJneAAuksXIjOgn7XpC2phCHU7/jClwjKKI+g9NyI6z+1ash/MeOJEOC i95tXCdVQdxeFQyAQj1uENLi/n34EiEE2ht3jPZdtatEasHjHuU31TGu62lWkAHpp8X17uSmp Qhxudi1Fuz+dhgVcTkn7N59zq70Yv+z31pRRWrzSA9hf7TgvucqYU91piFEMa9o4KYhLW7t+s 25HKlZH1RT2p/Xy+TKPnFpsH25aPnOsGi9mx8ngNxsU5i233bZbD8CX8EGH4+yD4kwtKPOwgF JX3uitFi5sI7GTLvEvDvLNhlAMfDN7coLPMAyiPPXMW4vnXSJFBv5vXdKkI5AjsfiC4VuoI2b BH3i7EGdEAYVmfddKlmchUv9lvTbI5oKwMSNR5rwXXqfDsEiDiuIZxcvm3YFjte98WZXuxMGc UR+sRsOTJmrUyIEJ8r65iWfz37OQywnG/n9z1sJFyhv47W8pgQ5yEPMJN5j6Sign9e0QK083B ro3T3zxxBve36bm87pZEApzejJR6lE/jUOVdXjK2nXWbNTHuDhSD+ymFopN0myhHFvdXAJL X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dhQt0Ymmz4tSv X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.75) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.01 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.504]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.68)[-0.678]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.21)[-0.206]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 12:14:31 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: > > Kurt Hackenberg writes: > > > I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if > > you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also > > an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer > > language. > > I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful > programming language better suited for teaching a beginning programmer > of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other > candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code > base. Speaking from my own terrible experience, Pascal is a collection of things you need to unlearn when you start understanding what _really_ happens. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 12:26:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8368F32A01A for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:26:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dhj33TFDz4vlQ for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:26:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M9npT-1je9AH410n-005osg; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 14:26:45 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:26:44 +0200 From: Polytropon To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mininal skills Message-Id: <20200605142644.add4cf07.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200605062217.cjtkdgwqwqqienct@blueeyes.stuffed.animals> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:LSv/Pr4Y0920bK1KndwXHk7aB+D3ZphqGCGSEG6D7ZtqN1Mz3Z2 kK6MF1Id8rXIgk48exEdBfJl27YvWsUcRqqjU8c84xdbTycHtcRTlVaOEA8DctSWbyhFU9q H6mPDwiNFxohrJhtDFsYdIyKjdR1SqKEKCpwz5DNsOUqj7JLcOUfWFJkdTIPhFbAqXJkbhy gRu9sDyJKneIg7f3cwEBw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:r4m8b5PKypQ=:Fk+m8JLVV/QrkuMXDweppG T2V9+Wov7SxHpjqbXUSxLTF0CKfZfPaPOkj8rX6CxGOfE9i1r1AL67L3hdEiUd/XpEEbevTFj IJ38k6eZ9rP0Aj2ZAMKlW/5/FciESJ61vtY/j7RLGvQtc+P5UeT00eAWanFtqs5USHrq7oYE4 Z7x98ozBPjcDvSi4hBIpAb4DErFeit8VEtLxfzy/EI4EL+bAUWQ0aOKLnG60Yn1ph7TU67QVu T5ZLqGhMZms2ZT2anYIyyAwWBtrk8T8fnue9GtUVJoHHfxt4Fe+3YsS4zGhnUBKpmdJ0bXflX sn5KQvfq8rKhLjldLf3sgX5DZzP2fc862VRXBPsv6BTsD2mvXyvWcqnpeE0GrgORj0AxVYbv/ 02kNb49sCQZBoI4Km5mP+Lo2dobsRnbdqvJrvIJwPNjCWEQ0DzfZJDxDL8JF0OwHiUBN0gVcu MipLXIKo/+qyW6R6/w4GdSh93RybjfP6jvTT4z2wrL5x96Xr8ZI4aZdS0Xr8Q4GpUvKtTFoZv 0eezQo+1Zs0vNoRzxiAKdITexejm9MszwU8HNUiaw2w7374vzhPzGnoYAC6U8vI6aTbwko9k4 Vh5cakt00p77o+jD4njyIr1Freu/5cOyO14F+n0W3R+Dp5lI4ykVNoxTH4EMalxP+ahmn9yYN UaoJmV3lHhxzFvklqZuU7/Nblx9XMOL8lg9uM4dmPTau1lhjjH7Okn+kCyr41r7QBAouDQZxd ChDdWr24bVPN3m1MvEcycwAI+Loc/r1x4pDiEhcwGwsF8H50KwSfcFGBEjXeFzpn71bCHdWoT 9OPpwn+jxZgQdx3NAbvySu2FqfwL+VhZVxDiiquhIwMBlndUnuRZoh+mrDEokjK8bf0pHAa X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dhj33TFDz4vlQ X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.27 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.421]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.62)[-0.616]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.09)[-0.093]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 12:26:48 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 04:27:20 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/4/20, Michael Schuster wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 8:22 AM Brenda J. Butler wrote: > > > >> > >> As for "what is shell programming" ... it's the same as regular > >> programming > >> but written in a language that doesn't need to be compiled. Often the > >> shell program calls on other programs to do the work. So learning "shell > >> programming" is about more than learning the shell language - it is > >> also about learning enough of those other little utilities to be > >> able to do something useful in the shell. > >> > > > > One of the best books on the subject (in my experience) is "The Unix > > Programming Environment" by Kernighan and Pike - written in 1984, it is > > still a good text to teach you some of the fundamentals of the ... unix > > programming environment ;-). > > I highly recommend it. > [snip] > > I agree! Very good book! Another good one is 'UNIX Network > Programming' by Stevens, and soon enough you'll be ready for 'Advanced > Programming in the UNIX Environment', also by Stevens (Sorry, I'm a > 'dead tree' addict!). Dead tree: "The magic garden explained. The internals of UNIX System 5 release 4." by Benny Goodheart & James Cox, if you want to dive into system programming. > While compiled binaries on 'NIX systems like FreeBSD are distributed > in ELF format (which you can look up if you are interested), files > intended for a scripting language such as a shell have a very special > sequence of characters the shell looks for at the beginning: '#!', > also called 'she-bang'. These MUST be the first two characters in the > text file, followed by the location of the program you want to use to > execute the file, such as '#!/usr/local/bin/ruby27' for the latest > version of Ruby. This is needed (and generally recommended) for files that have the executable attribute set, so you can run the script as if it was a real program - except that you implicitely call the appripriate interpreter, indicated by the #! line, that will interpret the script. Related terminology: interpreter, compiler. Further words: compiler, assembler, preprocessor, linker. > You can also specify a different shell binary as your > program. For example, I execute a file with '#!/bin/sh' with the > simple Bourne shell 'sh' from my root prompt when root's normal shell > (on FreeBSD) is tcsh. The syntax of each shell's language is somewhat > different, so take care. Just dive in with your text editor, create a > few files, and try to run them. If you haven't already, use 'chmod + x > myfile' to make them run directly from the prompt, like: > > ./myscript > > the period-slash combo tells your shell that the current directory is > where to find that file; otherwise, it'll merrily look for your > program in /bin, /usr/bin, etc. Sidenote: The command is chmod +x No space after "+"; surely just a typo. If you forgot to make the file executable, you can still have sh process it: sh myscript The extension ".sh" for shell scripts is of course optional. It is not entirely uncommon that scripts which have the executable bit set and are intended to be run directly do not have an extension, while scripts to be called with the interpreter do keep the extension, for example: ./something is an awk script, it starts with "#!/usr/bin/awk -f", while somethingelse.awk is to be used like this: blah | foo | awk -f somethingelse.awk > results.txt As mentioned, a #! line doesn't have to exist in such a case. This isn't exactly a rule, but you will often find it in reality. Of course there's nothing wrong with doing things like ./thescript.sh if it is set executable. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 14:59:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450E432DE86 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:59:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dm5V33dVz42TF for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:59:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id q8so10606494iow.7 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 07:59:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lvg8ny/vkBtCvetpM+SAsnSDJ818tipbmXxB3CSCYzo=; b=YTTf+su5YucVUYBcaznYgfys3sCxritnkz3n+WSybLq+Y1jg678HEvYHAooohtLdta vBkulAXLDyIUDc731eFmUmkQoj/QlPcAzyBbjrBuxXpVFTy4OibOG7MRdEvzMFQWuqKy GYU32f/ecTuYsTXrmJuzbgtNUcWBxAzsVT2csOLSishjnJGp3sZGet8BPmuSoxa6UG0y oXLQL6D3XHW0Y3Azzl0pUXjYJ6qY1vci2+/DQbiEswnjvkcSCrbEqQ3q4f+acpTLm7FV aT4vxrFwkoHHCEg/FsUw7y9VxGHD1cfOsz0fzihxLk+exobad1Bggsm2HDdCjWhN58hj vQxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lvg8ny/vkBtCvetpM+SAsnSDJ818tipbmXxB3CSCYzo=; b=fq44NJN7ahmt2nFycym5ccZ+zwnQAdUnp7bLXHwyYXJLsxLU4SWZLmfepJi4PLDti0 oWhQoHwhwQIwoPGWAiSRSYm5cT7cLR1vtfUS7atGh7Z9y/PYBhNg1jY9wa6QxCznXkNb nBY+v5FVU4fLpjucFKhZqiDV2rPamFf+17NYr0p70DkIMoO0D8Owt7I6A1ydrU2UAaXc AN9zHIUWLo639OQOUiZ7pi84Q1fF8S2p9Iw1+LBWPs9n2wL3QQ7f0m6t8/xTNopBViSO h3uYn+nHxcXw6YfKn85xL5oqXkP/eAnTF3denAHH3yRQ7LpNJ4lqa745ZAcK5Vh28K2c 8CBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533q1M7UFT9d0+3FGlmGCgAFnpoTmy/L3Z9RLN6PRG5+4kRUVobl uaImkOMX72n86unm+md9HgebM9Rt8NacvB8CPE2B1GQx X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzcYxfBZYP+8K4oOMIS1YDS1/o3ne6gu0Hq+L0OYUMPkOpaKyQ0reBHjvIqEF7dyjInkdyV+bwxsLiVeJUIlQE= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6641:: with SMTP id l1mr8995772jaf.23.1591369181128; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 07:59:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:6cf:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 07:59:40 -0700 (PDT) From: David Mehler Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:59:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: FreeBSD, ipfilter, and IPv4 and IPv6 rules? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dm5V33dVz42TF X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=YTTf+su5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of davemehler@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=davemehler@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.56 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.960]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.39)[0.391]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 14:59:43 -0000 Hello, I'm looking for a working configuration of ipfilter on FreeBSD that uses both IPv4 and IPv6 rules. I've got v4 rules defined which are working in /etc/ipf.rules. When I try to get a SLAAC address on system reboot that fails, and my ipv6 rules are not autoloading which according to /etc/default/rc.conf should be in a file called /etc/ipf6.rules. To get them to load I have to do ipf -FA -f /etc/ipf6.rules then I get an ipv6 address just pops right up. I'm also interested in the tcp/udp/tcp6/udp6 ports rtsold and SLAAC use? Thanks. Dave. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 15:08:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D020432E59A for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:08:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dmHs525Tz43nR for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 055F8UQ8072041 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:08:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu Subject: Openssl on 11.x and expired certificates [was: IMAP && Server certificate has expired] To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: <247ae2fd-a7e8-146b-be43-47ca247cca10@netfence.it> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:08:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dmHs525Tz43nR X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.51 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.965]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.160]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.903]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 15:08:42 -0000 On 2020-06-01 00:16, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > There is a cert from AddTrust which expired early on Saturday. I > believe it was the cert for certificate-authority named USERTrust RSA. > This shouldn't have been a problem, because there is a newer cert for > that same CA which has not expired. > > I do not understand all the details, but apparently there is a bug in > versions of OpenSSL which are older than version 1.1. If the older > (now-expired) cert is known on some system, it is used instead of the > newer cert. And therefore that cert, and every cert which was generated > by that CA is also considered invalid. This problem hit us at RPI on > many Redhat systems yesterday. > > I also saw the problem in Mail.app on some of my older MacOS systems, > but Mail.app does not have this problem on MacOS catalina. I can see it too, on many sites. E.g. "openssl s_client -connect www.allmusic.com:https" passes verification on 12.1, but fails on 11.3. Deleting the expired certificate from /etc/ssl/cert.pem is enough to solve the problem. Is anyone looking into this? What is the official position/suggestion for those stuck on 11.x? Has at least a bug been reported? bye & Thanks av. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 15:49:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2C332F7D1 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:49:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100085fbc89.91609f1676d60e365cd32f84853627ca@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dnBy2pd6z48Y3 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:49:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100085fbc89.91609f1676d60e365cd32f84853627ca@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591372170; x=1593964170; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=047xe+/XQ0gWD6Pme7HKuh88iRrHaPRqmW1PUEpBCTw=; b=AwoigmrH2AkaZVQQHdiz7uaB+xTJj8hwj1tP2NdQYyOmvybzWcoHooUY8DBR9Dj0rgiz+3npHNK7V538fvW7D4sPx5sST4y5+P7cGcHOkqorXgmFOWj9INIjBpTpYwUznUIrhsNptCOHOHxsE31AzkdyYLtdlCAjwn9tgogt7+Y= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDg1ZmJjODkuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 5 Jun 2020 11:49:20 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 5 Jun 2020 11:49:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jhEae-000NQQ-PO; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:49:04 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 16:49:04 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Robert Huff Cc: Kurt Hackenberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200605164904.b9680919301654708563a3df@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dnBy2pd6z48Y3 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=AwoigmrH; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100085fbc89.91609f1676d60e365cd32f84853627ca@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100085fbc89.91609f1676d60e365cd32f84853627ca@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.15)[-1.150]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100085fbc89.91609f1676d60e365cd32f84853627ca@email-od.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org, 4250.82.1d4c100085fbc89.91609f1676d60e365cd32f84853627ca@email-od.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 15:49:31 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400 Robert Huff wrote: > > Kurt Hackenberg writes: > > > I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if > > you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also > > an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer > > language. > > I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful > programming language better suited for teaching a beginning programmer > of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other > candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code > base. Python - it's clean, enforces decent structure, is available everywhere and provides an interactive environment which is great for learning and experimenting in. Oh and it *does* have a vast code base and a lot of active users, online resources up the whazoo not least being the Raspberry Pi foundation when it comes to beginner programming. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 15:52:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DFF32FB1D for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:52:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x243.google.com (mail-lj1-x243.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::243]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dnGR1qhpz49D2 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:52:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x243.google.com with SMTP id b6so12378659ljj.1 for ; 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Fri, 05 Jun 2020 08:52:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:52:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Polytropon Cc: Robert Huff , Kurt Hackenberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dnGR1qhpz49D2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=WvEhpxgB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::243 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.04 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.08)[-0.081]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.961]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::243:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 15:52:32 -0000 On 6/5/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: >> >> Kurt Hackenberg writes: >> >> > I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if >> > you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also >> > an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer >> > language. >> >> I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful >> programming language better suited for teaching a beginning programmer >> of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other >> candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code >> base. FWIW, Java has become a really bad choice. Not only is Oracle requiring licenses for commercial development, Java8 is very, very majorly different than Java7. Architect of a project I was on (the same one I referenced earlier): "We should use Java. There are lots of Java programmers out there!" Me: "There are lots of Java programmers out there because you _need_ lots of them to get anything done and the stack is always breaking!" For a first-language choice, I like Ruby because it is so elegant and it is fully OO. That said, the commercial world in the US does not agree with me and they want everybody to use Python(3), which, while fully supported by amazing libraries (many of which find their way to Ruby very quickly), is a very ugly SOB that to me is Perl5's much uglier cousin. I have come back to C++ as my language of choice for professional code crafting. It is a terrible first language to learn OOP, but it is fast and sufficiently obfuscateable (pImpl, etc.) that you can protect your source as a trade secret rather than needing to expose it all with a patent. I am beginning to explore the LLVM-based CLANG as a C++ variant because it stands a chance if becoming the go-to Grail of "write once, run everywhere" although system and GUI interface libraries still need to be refined further for that to be completely the case. > Speaking from my own terrible experience, Pascal is a > collection of things you need to unlearn when you start > understanding what _really_ happens. :-) > Oh, I thought that was ada... :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 16:10:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CCE330283 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 16:10:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dng24rCbz4Brq for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 16:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [80.187.82.30] (helo=[172.20.10.4]) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhEvE-0002NR-Bu for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 18:10:20 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: Subject: Re: Minimal skills Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 18:10:19 +0200 User-Agent: Dekko/0.6.20; Qt/5.4.1; ubuntumirclient; Linux; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <77b70a89-2771-4abc-890c-703da54be65d@unixarea.de> In-Reply-To: <20200605164904.b9680919301654708563a3df@sohara.org> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 80.187.82.30 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dng24rCbz4Brq X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.29 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.64)[0.641]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[178.254.4.101:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.96)[0.960]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.887]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.4.0/24, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:10:23 -0000 Please be so kind and move this discussion to somewhere else, for example=20 to /dev/null, as it has nothing todo with our beloved FreeBSD. Thanks matthias --=20 Sent from my Ubuntu phone http://www.unixarea.de/ NO to the EU! NEIN zur EU! 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dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=Xm5Kb4jU; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.23.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.40 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.884]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[edvax.de,gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[184.96.131.37:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_PARTS_DIFFER(0.53)[76.3%]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.043]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.23.54:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.23.54:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:12:17 -0000 >For a first-language choice, I like Ruby because it is so elegant and it is fully OO. Ruby, C, and python are my best bet for learning programming? Do C and Ruby have a GUI like python does? > > On Jun 5, 2020 at 9:52 AM, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > On 6/5/20, Polytropon edvax.de> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: >> >> Kurt Hackenberg writes: >> >> > I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if >> > you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also >> > an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer >> > language. >> >> I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful >> programming language better suited for teaching a beginning programmer >> of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other >> candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code >> base. FWIW, Java has become a really bad choice. Not only is Oracle requiring licenses for commercial development, Java8 is very, very majorly different than Java7. Architect of a project I was on (the same one I referenced earlier): "We should use Java. There are lots of Java programmers out there!" Me: "There are lots of Java program mers out there because you _need_ lots of them to get anything done and the stack is always breaking!" For a first-language choice, I like Ruby because it is so elegant and it is fully OO. That said, the commercial world in the US does not agree with me and they want everybody to use Python(3), which, while fully supported by amazing libraries (many of which find their way to Ruby very quickly), is a very ugly SOB that to me is Perl5's much uglier cousin. I have come back to C++ as my language of choice for professional code crafting. It is a terrible first language to learn OOP, but it is fast and sufficiently obfuscateable (pImpl, etc.) that you can protect your source as a trade secret rather than needing to expose it all with a patent. I am beginning to explore the LLVM-based CLANG as a C++ variant because it stands a chance if becoming the go-to Grail of "write once, run everywhere" although system and GUI interface libraries still need to be refined further for that to be compl etely the case. > Speaking from my own terrible experience, Pascal is a > collection of things you need to unlearn when you start > understanding what _really_ happens. :-) > Oh, I thought that was ada... :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 17:36:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB3233256C for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:36:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49dqZw2YW3z4NK2 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:36:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.2]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79C104E655; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:36:50 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200605164904.b9680919301654708563a3df@sohara.org> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:36:48 -0500 Cc: Robert Huff , Kurt Hackenberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <730F9883-3A49-41A0-BD87-28CCC25040F9@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605164904.b9680919301654708563a3df@sohara.org> To: Steve O'Hara-Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dqZw2YW3z4NK2 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.2:received]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.48)[0.478]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.56)[-0.557]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.697]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 17:36:57 -0000 > On Jun 5, 2020, at 10:49 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith = wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400 > Robert Huff wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Kurt Hackenberg writes: >>=20 >>> I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if >>> you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also >>> an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer >>> language. >>=20 >> I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful >> programming language better suited for teaching a beginning = programmer >> of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other >> candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code >> base.=20 >=20 > Python - it's clean, enforces decent structure, is available > everywhere and provides an interactive environment which is great for > learning and experimenting in. Oh and it *does* have a vast code base = and a > lot of active users, online resources up the whazoo not least being = the > Raspberry Pi foundation when it comes to beginner programming. >=20 I can not pass on that. Python, being great language for my researchers = to use, has its specifics. I usually tell my users: python is a sneaky = snake. Meaning: python itself paces fast, changing its internals. = Whatever modules written by others you use, will be peaky about specific = version of python, namely, once module developer stops modifying module = for new releases when minor (not even major!) version of python changes, = pretty soon such module will not work in newer - latest - version of = python, getting you stuck with older python, potentially with security = vulnerabilities. In other words python based server software may be real = nightmare for sysadmin (mailman 2 was the only example of not being such = I know of). The only nastier in that respect that comes to my mind is = ruby [with =E2=80=9Cgems=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Crails=E2=80=9D and friends = ;-) Just my 2 cents. Valeri > --=20 > Steve O'Hara-Smith > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 17:43:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6365E33276B for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:43:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49dqkN5mtgz4P1f for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:43:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.2]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6AA8E4E6A9; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:43:24 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <77b70a89-2771-4abc-890c-703da54be65d@unixarea.de> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:43:22 -0500 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <979CC767-159D-4CE3-BC06-5EBE471100A7@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <77b70a89-2771-4abc-890c-703da54be65d@unixarea.de> To: Matthias Apitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dqkN5mtgz4P1f X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.62 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.2:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.69)[-0.691]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.31)[0.310]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.841]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 17:43:25 -0000 > On Jun 5, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Matthias Apitz wrote: >=20 > Please be so kind and move this discussion to somewhere else, for = example to /dev/null, as it has nothing todo with our beloved FreeBSD. >=20 +1 Valeri > Thanks >=20 > matthias >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Sent from my Ubuntu phone > http://www.unixarea.de/ > NO to the EU! NEIN zur EU! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 22:27:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF76339571 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:27:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dy201k22z42Mb for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:27:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:27:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <51a4b668-ca83-192d-4453-d65087dbcb93@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 15:27:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dy201k22z42Mb X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.56 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.51)[0.506]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.69)[0.690]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.46)[0.465]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:27:21 -0000 On 2020-06-04 19:59, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > Yes, [K&R2e] is over 30 years old. C itself, and Unix, were invented > together about 1970. (FreeBSD is a version of Unix; Linux is a > different version of Unix.) > > That is a classic book about C, and still valuable, but no longer > complete. There were some additions to the language in 1999, and a > couple smaller changes since. > > C is useful to know around Unix systems, and there's a lot of > existing software in the world written in C, but it's not used all > that much for new projects. I say this even though I've used C and > Unix for a long time. On 2020-06-04 21:07, Brandon helsley wrote: > Then you are recommending new learning material for C? Is it C or C+ > or C++ that I'm to be benefited to learn when working with freebsd? On 2020-06-05 09:12, Brandon helsley wrote: > Ruby, C, and python are my best bet for learning programming? Do C > and Ruby have a GUI like python does? I view C as the lowest-common-denominator, de facto standard computer programming language for imperative and structured programming. I believe it is a credible choice for a first programming language, especially in the context of contributing to FreeBSD. As the saying goes, "you have to walk before you run". Save C++, Ruby, Python, etc., for later. (If you want to "crawl before you walk", then consider boolean algebra, digital logic, hardware definition languages, computer architecture, microcode, machine code, and assembly language.) The ANSI X3.159-1989 version of C is a relatively small language, yet adequate for real work (as proven by Unix). K&R2e is only 1/2" thick, very well written, and has many available resources. So, the learning curve is reasonable. If you read K&R 2e cover to cover and pay attention to the concepts, your mind will be opened. If you enter and run the examples, and especially if you do the exercises, you will reinforce your knowledge and gain practical skills. Whatever level of effort you put in, the return on investment will be manifold. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 22:28:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4757339A24 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:28:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dy3040Zsz42dG for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:28:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M76jv-1jba3K3UNj-008d2H; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:28:09 +0200 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:28:09 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200606002809.875010da.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Tb9NRn+ilfU5NwfJPd9ebvHuxQF0OkUNfmgQkk8meqVCm8kGj72 m4bwEfW/fvWZcvfZv2ZRjaqrmuiENLwkZR98Ls5GZmiETs23dXSDH6jxTgywS4OnTou7SkK szplYxGs9GixfaFyO/NQ20KvLjdx18VM4TOTcfz6AizIysB3V3gkojnfTC1S8uy+UIJg9xV GEAckAWaLetZ6UQ2M7TCQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:E6+h6hYgxAg=:q15Gm/TUP0f/NCvx5DeTZL uqXWqanojNyOFuF+DX0sYjVOvCe5Etbo+K1lgy/CAhSozw/4824yARsXED55CdCXXE5pV6DWV zlHOVDToNydYZYspaKsRpMK40pYxZoBBSDLJKrvBLJsA7vb4a09AWGqNkzt6rQInVNFZPdqFe 1fpEqn48gfjAH4cozyRw+BTXwd37rdLyG/ipvbV9rz/c4vTaJwL7A2x2XAkU+lgH982cfYzbm dQjom5WX0k8lqg/ouh9gkYrlVeO8orvpUmHG7BFcSeu19K4oPZQ3s9ywE4U7RgqHvGKF+/5+r waWmN9tgxqEN8/6Ttt62hZO4GkZFbFUOglHyehfdi3PHfjZoAp/ZvGYnpOTfpNWnumHcic7dc 27TLtnpmPosqQrQc7CI68uZ5DfW68gaQjleLSQywdVvnTfxUddzsAZAxFd8N2ALPaLEmR8iy/ dSegLK8BvorHBAG5MgCxwBVYggqvqwoGtbvqHUyDybfT62QaiMXRVzQCYge5Uaq7idPMP7Dbj 3NdpWrTvKtia7DSipt82sqKqqBGPiDWXgU4PehUOH7m+OUD4m2P2ZuvlXcQppwksMse+9stkd Ws2iyeFwaeZNa5IP+hw0Ur9UpBzXA/DGlxdf1bJSY0oD/VB2dCvBaeJUFxe4B9U6adHEMBPQa x7gBqgdUgZqpvKWpWTzKeACGdHl4szzEOLl8kB+rYjUCPjzP+TgTV5uxYZIYkWFZJA/0wSND2 wMN44MgdP99cNbpJ3RH8se2Dz24ZXAwYYKh65gnBKzS0iyw9NwZxgSm/SmM2l9VAXCOytz4lG NlVhHOfxQTYn9UDZTUj0ipCnlBOlReMpCIIXVwDKrp6UicxRq6MyX0q2BDnVsDx6kO7i8oSxe 4Io6Qr1akn/hZ3e0P33Q== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dy3040Zsz42dG X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.42 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.17)[-0.171]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.16)[-0.163]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.35)[0.355]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:28:13 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:12:12 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Ruby, C, and python are my best bet for learning programming? Again, the correct answer is: "It depends." :-) C teaches you fundamentals, and it is used in many places of FreeBSD. Python and Ruby, as interpreted languages, are very imporant in the application area, not so much in system programming. While they have certain things in common, there are big differences in the languages' elements. > Do C and Ruby have a GUI like python does? Both have libraries and frameworks to generate GUIs, both native and web-based. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.20.44:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:32:28 -0000 Thanks, I'll get to it and be back in a while and every so often to ask questions about FreeBSD. > > On Jun 5, 2020 at 4:28 PM, Polytropon wrote: > > > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:12:12 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Ruby, C, and python are my best bet for learning programming? Again, the correct answer is: "It depends." :-) C teaches you fundamentals, and it is used in many places of FreeBSD. Python and Ruby, as interpreted languages, are very imporant in the application area, not so much in system programming. While they have certain things in common, there are big differences in the languages' elements. > Do C and Ruby have a GUI like python does? Both have libraries and frameworks to generate GUIs, both native and web-based. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 22:44:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DF533A03A for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:44:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49dyPV0Lnqz44NL for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 22:44:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.179]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M72bv-1jbZll1wHX-008eLO; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:44:10 +0200 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:44:10 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Brandon helsley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-Id: <20200606004410.47e2e4c3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KTSKBzusZJ1K/MY/ZPso1rG7t9GSXA5aSlek/N4mm7jkt3XQ1xT 9nustibdPuZlp6t9KHl9ZH+7RGzFz7y0DUaJK5spvySMVOEbI/F9IV1kPAhzwpt1w9rzFp0 YtvlV4C9rLPvwfUse/PXmjHBtJoTUG5JFnBnmihGhVWRLHjrCHtTMJwpvyEC0IXxOvZaBWH WVI2s6UgQTEwV4aS5OLyA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Nyj7gPSNhwc=:YHAO4LluobVCaq1RqjA+qY Dh7gyPzbAYBNEv/5eTNsIKPk9dSdkEYa8CCDREbfFNp/km+o8E1PCMlwvdYq9KJrinQYxIMDq 233ahFRGVyOxS5wNOehxntjVAMUoI2R4X21oW8rt2qb5Plw5PQer7UXhU1exmtRAbohVjpnQy atzBsXJlksWhDDeqo5gnFrh0PuEsOu0aRxy2n1S1/vIbKJO3ELEQP9aKlQoehkbBVBmcpWk+7 y5ZzfOZx0pLVVltRxXiM9nYTHQkChvCBRMz3evK7eyqWhtICqKk8TeY01mEnRm6fLKbkH0oyE +Onu0izHWoMY0722Q15ySW3AJyNJ+Vc6LipaJvPK3u8qHYVc6Sn5YbbZ822VeJ/z9r7XUBjsr 5AzTiXO86eZL3KgOPMPY34IIjXmcBbCrn2JEC86Ud3tr5RFIksqo1sLlh8k+s/4z6xG5HJFYV b5U+s3oX5IIP7tUeoNQYWnrzksfO8kNxk7zl9E1uaQqMqWD0Ic0GnOVIn7L0d3trxlUfv/G4W drrBJJuqaSLmBazoiRjHQmXjECfBnRa/HzJJB1K6hjNTfEq5xeXrezGFJIII5XP1qoaenHJzX ADoPwYLh57cZmkHQcUVcmYIAw14rmyI9Su5ZFaJ2PYaAu5EorVQiKZptkNsPiJNXea/E5YuE+ ddQ2iGw/3IH/fTbf7jc5V58y3bRU4wL44v/Uw4eLsmStXrgeHgjkrI4f3IHNPqQ4iPySjX5R4 G035aq6TK3UWDeXKJphEj6ffzKuI9w2TcOuiGuopy+cQUXqubt+k0CWojt/1PzgwlrebqfYBQ RrC3/QNmx7THvCJ/gXFA+15khcoWSM/3bahi+2JO57Cxt9pZn57LDPXicwIrto8EBKrT70tE0 +GTgfcNd5DNZgOJ78Ufg== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dyPV0Lnqz44NL X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.87 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.25)[-0.245]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.179:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.39)[-0.385]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.10)[0.101]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:44:15 -0000 On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 16:32:24 -0600, Brandon helsley wrote: > Thanks, I'll get to it and be back in a while and every so often > to ask questions about FreeBSD. Allow me to add a little illustration (again simplified, but probably still worth a pointer): Recently a bug was reported that the manpage of the awk program mentions the -V option, but the awk program doesn't support it; instead it supports --version, which is not in the manpage. There are now basically two solutions to resolve the bug: a) change the manpage to reflect the existing behaviour of awk (requires ability to edit manpage, roff/mdoc format) b) change the awk source to accept the -V option as per manpage (requires ability to edit C program) If you are interested in what bugs currently exist on FreeBSD and need to be solved, you can use the freebsd-bugs@ mailing list as well as the bug tracker for a good overview. Example: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=247004 -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[65.25.53.210]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q32sm1650769qtf.36.2020.06.05.19.19.37 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jun 2020 19:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5EDAFD38.8080708@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 22:19:36 -0400 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Vlans setup using ifconfig command Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49f3B30qksz4VxS X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=auE7nc7s; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.60 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.62)[-0.617]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[65.25.53.210:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.005]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a:from]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 02:19:40 -0000 My host has a single dynamic ip address allocated this way ifconfig_re0="DHCP" I am trying to add & remove VLAN sub-interfaces to the re0 interface using the ifconfig command but havening trouble with the command syntax. I also need to find out how to keep the parent re0 interface being used by the host as the primary connection to the public internet. When vlans are created in the rc.conf the last VLAN sub-interfaces becomes the vlan used by the host by default. I don't want this behavior. Thank you for any help you can provide. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 6 03:08:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724FD340881 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 03:08:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49f4Ft46g0z4c6P for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 03:08:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:07:59 -0700 Subject: Re: pkg update To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: David Christensen Message-ID: <7b90bcc8-4eaa-e35f-3024-bba8fb99fc51@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:07:58 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49f4Ft46g0z4c6P X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.48)[0.479]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.64)[0.645]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.40)[0.398]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 03:08:03 -0000 On 2020-06-05 18:35, Brandon helsley wrote: > my internet connection is up and ping is working, Although I cannot update pkg. why am i having this problem? it has happened before but starts working again after a few hours usually. this time it is for days. > > > root@machine17:~ # pkg update > Updating FreeBSDlatest repository catalogue... > pkg: https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/;latest/meta.txz: Not Found That URL is bad. If I remove the semicolon before 'latest', it works: https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest/meta.txz My guess is that you have a bad configuration setting (?). Here is my machine: 2020-06-05 20:03:37 toor@vf1 ~/Dpchrist-Perl-b0_01063002/t # freebsd-version && uname -a 12.1-RELEASE-p5 FreeBSD vf1.tracy.holgerdanske.com 12.1-RELEASE-p5 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5 GENERIC amd64 Here is my pkg.conf, which I have not modified. Compare it to yours: 2020-06-05 20:04:04 toor@vf1 ~/Dpchrist-Perl-b0_01063002/t # grep -v '#' /usr/local/etc/pkg.conf | grep . ALIAS : { all-depends: query %dn-%dv, annotations: info -A, build-depends: info -qd, cinfo: info -Cx, comment: query -i "%c", csearch: search -Cx, desc: query -i "%e", download: fetch, iinfo: info -ix, isearch: search -ix, prime-list: "query -e '%a = 0' '%n'", prime-origins: "query -e '%a = 0' '%o'", list: info -ql, noauto = "query -e '%a == 0' '%n-%v'", options: query -i "%n - %Ok: %Ov", origin: info -qo, provided-depends: info -qb, rall-depends: rquery %dn-%dv, raw: info -R, rcomment: rquery -i "%c", rdesc: rquery -i "%e", required-depends: info -qr, roptions: rquery -i "%n - %Ok: %Ov", shared-depends: info -qB, show: info -f -k, size: info -sq, } If that doesn't work, try the --debug option to pkg(8) and look for clues. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 6 06:22:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA42732850D for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 06:22:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000876a66b.15bfb4f213cd01436ca63ac3c39ef92d@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49f8ZJ4DPRz42Z4 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 06:22:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000876a66b.15bfb4f213cd01436ca63ac3c39ef92d@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591424553; x=1594016553; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; 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NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.915]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000876a66b.15bfb4f213cd01436ca63ac3c39ef92d@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000876a66b.15bfb4f213cd01436ca63ac3c39ef92d@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[hotmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 06:22:33 -0000 On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:44:10 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > There are now basically two solutions to resolve the bug: > > a) change the manpage to reflect the existing behaviour of awk > (requires ability to edit manpage, roff/mdoc format) > > b) change the awk source to accept the -V option as per manpage > (requires ability to edit C program) Also a potential bikeshed discussion about which is the right thing to do resulting in nothing being done for ages. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 6 07:32:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0151C32A233 for ; 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R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 07:32:58 -0000 On 2020-06-06 04:19, Ernie Luzar wrote: > My host has a single dynamic ip address allocated this way > > ifconfig_re0="DHCP" > > I am trying to add & remove VLAN sub-interfaces to the re0 interface > using the ifconfig command but havening trouble with the command syntax. > > I also need to find out how to keep the parent re0 interface being used > by the host as the primary connection to the public internet. AFAIK you don't. You'll have to define all the VLAN interfaces and leave re0 as "parent only", without an IP. At least, that's how I'm using it, but I think it's the only way. bye av. 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FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.42)[-0.422]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.15)[-0.155]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.070]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.90.75:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.90.75:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 08:12:01 -0000 On 2020-06-06 07:05, Brandon helsley wrote: > my internet connection is up and ping is working, Although I cannot update pkg. why am i having this problem? it has happened before but starts working again after a few hours usually. this time it is for days. > > > root@machine17:~ # pkg update > Updating FreeBSDlatest repository catalogue... > pkg: https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/;latest/meta.txz: Not Found > repository FreeBSDlatest has no meta file, using default settings > pkg: https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/;latest/packagesite.txz: Not Found > Unable to update repository FreeBSDlatest > Error updating repositories! Hi Brendon, This is a known problem with pkg, which sometimes happens for reasons I do not know. The following steps should resolve your issue : rm -rf /var/cache/pkg/* /var/db/pkg/repo-*.sqlite pkg bootstrap -f pkg update -f Regards, Manish Jain From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 6 09:06:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D380232CB42 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 09:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 10.mo173.mail-out.ovh.net (10.mo173.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.74.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fDCN2yXGz4M8f for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 09:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player786.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.110.103.132]) by mo173.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773DF13C2F5 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 10:56:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-250.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.250]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player786.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B33513410C44 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 10:56:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 6506575561674459140 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudeghedgtdelucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecuhedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeggihhntggvnhhtucffgffhgfftvfcuoedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgfeekvdegvdfgudefgfevkeegvdekteekueegjeehtefftdetvefgvdeuveekheenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpudegiedrtddrudekledrvdehtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdqohhuthdphhgvlhhopehplhgrhigvrhejkeeirdhhrgdrohhvhhdrnhgvthdpihhnvghtpedtrddtrddtrddtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepvddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehfrhgvvggsshguqdhquhgvshhtihhonhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhg X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fDCN2yXGz4M8f X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.74.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [11.15 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[defert.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[146.0.189.250:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.55)[0.553]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.25)[0.253]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HFILTER_HELO_BADIP(4.50)[10.mo173.mail-out.ovh.net,1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.85)[0.846]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.105.74.148:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[46.105.74.148:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 09:06:24 -0000 My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never want to use another language and that could be a handicap in a new developer's career. On 06/06/2020 08:22, roberthuff@rcn.com wrote: > > I do agree that if one intends to do substantial programming in > the current environment ... learning an object-oriented language is a > really good idea. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 6 15:31:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99763336DCC for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:31:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jc@irbs.com) Received: from smtp-out-4.mxes.net (smtp-out-4.mxes.net [198.205.123.69]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fNlH3N8zz48xQ for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:31:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jc@irbs.com) Received: from squirrelmail.mxes.net (squirrelmail.mxes.net [198.205.123.113]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB26A75964; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 11:31:01 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mxes.net; s=mta; t=1591457463; bh=PFzRxswKlSsGjeGuUixB9uvPU3lFW8SN5KtataD/g6E=; h=Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:From:To:Reply-To: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=oLosCn/+vNaFGNrmUSHbw6UyrbKq7Ei/xJ5u6GA+48XVhgj2qFxzH4+73Byrhbg5p Z01Eyjby8sdN/q8BQy6u0twyFGWolD4S2W4vxksF0UP+8nuKZ08L/3SNmPIm8xCan7 KIHKtgnR+k5f2FkyKklRNkshJizpKUBbKbOpKZKk= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=irbs.com; s=2018-1; t=1591457463; bh=PFzRxswKlSsGjeGuUixB9uvPU3lFW8SN5KtataD/g6E=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Date:Subject:From:To:Cc:Reply-To:From; b=Wi4DVySstFrwQX7hMJ+DmNZTHP42/TyB9n21v2DqXS49gOlhMXYbAsOofkPyZ7Qr4 ZPHUMMc5f93/yif5BDGhIdz8/xwzQkKtpz/l2hzGjnxai3sVa5azMogHt3vT0O6sH3 YLKZS84CjoutLciMSdAThgPsNutoZ5HwPjibqZ8g= Received: from squirrelmail.mxes.net (squirrelmail.mxes.net [198.205.123.113]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by squirrelmail.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F98A75AFF; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 11:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <59211.198.205.123.4.1591457461.squirrel@squirrelmail.mxes.net> In-Reply-To: <247ae2fd-a7e8-146b-be43-47ca247cca10@netfence.it> References: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> <247ae2fd-a7e8-146b-be43-47ca247cca10@netfence.it> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 11:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Openssl on 11.x and expired certificates [was: IMAP && Server certificate has expired] From: "John Capo" To: "Andrea Venturoli" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: "John Capo" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Sent-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fNlH3N8zz48xQ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=mxes.net header.s=mta header.b=oLosCn/+; dkim=pass header.d=irbs.com header.s=2018-1 header.b=Wi4DVySs; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=irbs.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jc@irbs.com designates 198.205.123.69 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jc@irbs.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.74 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[jc@irbs.com]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[mxes.net:s=mta,irbs.com:s=2018-1]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:198.205.123.0/25]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[mxes.net:+,irbs.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[irbs.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.658]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.968]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19844, ipnet:198.205.122.0/23, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.205.123.69:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 15:31:08 -0000 On Fri, June 5, 2020 11:08, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > On 2020-06-01 00:16, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > > >> There is a cert from AddTrust which expired early on Saturday. I >> believe it was the cert for certificate-authority named USERTrust RSA.= This shouldn't have been a >> problem, because there is a newer cert for that same CA which has not = expired. >> >> I do not understand all the details, but apparently there is a bug in >> versions of OpenSSL which are older than version 1.1. If the older (n= ow-expired) cert is known >> on some system, it is used instead of the newer cert. And therefore t= hat cert, and every cert >> which was generated by that CA is also considered invalid. This probl= em hit us at RPI on many >> Redhat systems yesterday. >> >> >> I also saw the problem in Mail.app on some of my older MacOS systems, >> but Mail.app does not have this problem on MacOS catalina. > > I can see it too, on many sites. > > > E.g. > "openssl s_client -connect www.allmusic.com:https" passes verification > on 12.1, but fails on 11.3. > > Deleting the expired certificate from /etc/ssl/cert.pem is enough to > solve the problem. > > Is anyone looking into this? > What is the official position/suggestion for those stuck on 11.x? > Has at least a bug been reported? > This worked for me to fix curl on 11.3. Get the Mozilla cert bundle from= here: https://curl.haxx.se/ca/cacert.pem Replace the AddTrust External Root cert in that bundle with a new one fro= m here: https://www.tbs-certificates.co.uk/FAQ/en/racine-USERTrustRSACertificat= ionAuthority.html Save the existing /usr/local/share/certs/ca-root-nss.crt somewhere and re= place it with the modified bundle. John Capo Tuffmail.com