From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 01:06:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05BB0376243 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDlBf4gz1z3dJh for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.216]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA6B34E674 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:06:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:06:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDlBf4gz1z3dJh X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.85 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.142.216:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.29)[0.293]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.02)[0.021]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.44)[0.439]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:06:36 -0000 On 7/25/20 12:25 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 13:18:08 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> Prime example is >> all the crap that FreeBSD has had to import from Linux to make X work has >> made it incredibly unstable (I have to reboot 3 or 4 times a day if I am >> using KDE, Gnome or any other Linux originated desktop software usually >> due to it slowing to a crawl for no apparent reason [has to be resource >> leak of some kind]). > Hmm... I run FreeBSD workstation for Months (6 Month at least till security update really requires reboot), with Mate desktop. No trouble, nothing slows down. And I am not even considering myself lucky. Maybe you have some piece of software with memory leak (Oh, I just noticed you have said it yourself), and big enough swap space (like recommended 4 GB), and your machine starts swapping a lot. That can bring any machine to its knees. Until swap is exhausted, and system kills the offender. Incidentally, I've got question for experts. How "Out Of Memory" situation is handled by FreeBSD. I only dealt with [memory] "leaky" things under Linux, and OOM killer there really does its job well (and its way of judgement I do know). Valeri > Yeuch, but it has nothing to do with making X work, X works just > fine for as long as you care to leave it running. I can't speak for Gnome > or KDE I don't use them, but with a simple WM X is as rock solid as it has > ever been. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 01:13:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCB7376F92 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDlLz2FLxz3f12 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:13:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.216]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A908B4E662 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:13:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: mailman and python27 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <86642762-a7ee-e7e1-4fd2-36f17c1f97a0@tx.rr.com> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:13:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <86642762-a7ee-e7e1-4fd2-36f17c1f97a0@tx.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDlLz2FLxz3f12 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.94 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.142.216:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.260]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.14)[0.138]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.45)[0.445]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:13:48 -0000 On 7/25/20 3:17 PM, Paul Schmehl wrote: > I see that Python 27 is going away. Also, Mailman is still at version 2 > and requires Python 27. Are there any plans to update Mailman to version > 3? If not, I need to devise a conversion path to a different mail list > software. > There was detailed discussion on this list some time ago, try to look in archives. There is Mailman 3 (depending on python 3) which by no means as good as mailman 2 is in many respects (as some Experts mentioned) I for one plan to migrate to sympa as a couple of Experts recommended. Thanks Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 02:46:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C696737A030 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDnQ35cqrz40gy for ; 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Sat, 25 Jul 2020 19:46:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 22:46:23 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDnQ35cqrz40gy X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Zyvb+RwS; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.02 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.033]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.02)[0.017]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f:from]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:46:36 -0000 On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 9:06 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 7/25/20 12:25 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 13:18:08 -0400 > > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > >> Prime example is > >> all the crap that FreeBSD has had to import from Linux to make X work > has > >> made it incredibly unstable (I have to reboot 3 or 4 times a day if I am > >> using KDE, Gnome or any other Linux originated desktop software usually > >> due to it slowing to a crawl for no apparent reason [has to be resource > >> leak of some kind]). > > > > Hmm... I run FreeBSD workstation for Months (6 Month at least till > security update really requires reboot), with Mate desktop. No trouble, > nothing slows down. And I am not even considering myself lucky. > > Maybe you have some piece of software with memory leak (Oh, I just > noticed you have said it yourself), and big enough swap space (like > recommended 4 GB), and your machine starts swapping a lot. That can > bring any machine to its knees. Until swap is exhausted, and system > kills the offender. > Firefox, a terminal and a audio player (deadbeef) and thats it. 12 logical cores [AMD Ryzen 5 2600] 24 GB of RAM with 6 GB of swap backed by a 1 TB SSD. The only thing I can think of is there is a HTML 5 game that I often leave open all the time (one of those hurry up and wait multiplayer strategy/war freemium games [Forge of Empires]) and that slows it down but almost anything else I do besides the above also slows it down (for example libreoffice slows the entire machine to a crawl if you select a cell range in calc for copy/pasting [you don't need to actually copy and paste anything just select the region]). If I start mysql-server it makes the machine go out to lunch if I am using the GUI at all. I have an identical machine that I never use X or any GUI on that runs 3 VM's with one of them being my mail/print/nfs/dns/etc. server and not a single performance issue with any of the VM's or host. So the only possible conclusion I can draw is it is X being extremely screwy on FreeBSD due to all the linux hacks in it (this despite X's claim it will work on any POSIX machine with the right video support). As we move more and more towards wayland as being the pixel driver it gets worse. > Incidentally, I've got question for experts. How "Out Of Memory" > situation is handled by FreeBSD. I only dealt with [memory] "leaky" > things under Linux, and OOM killer there really does its job well (and > its way of judgement I do know). > When out of swap and real memory it just starts killing of processes that have not made any CPU requests recently. > Valeri > > > Yeuch, but it has nothing to do with making X work, X works just > > fine for as long as you care to leave it running. I can't speak for Gnome > > or KDE I don't use them, but with a simple WM X is as rock solid as it > has > > ever been. > > The above is true regardless of WM or desktop, it is true of all Linux derived GUI stuff. TL; DR -- X and wayland even more so have become far too tied to Linux for them to really be considered workable on any other OS. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 03:07:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFFF37AF51 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:07:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDnt82st1z42jg for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:07:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.224.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MgNMV-1kRi5c3LYd-00hyE0; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:07:23 +0200 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:07:23 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726050723.c46cfaa3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:94HrTP/Vth6m2eZQrIv3hAcFDVQzJpNkSHXdHVx4SHPnKughXda f3R/pT8BV5p/LNo3C2iY2Gqw+yZ2jCzUilyAKUSSJitu3v/FtnNLkgqZdIjoD3lUXSHpAi9 2Oyt4SIAwGXmRD+WIbvtm2aHck+JIFrv1Ofxq39xIX05qkoKemiz/qo1EqDq+NLYH6p29bx p7LjKGyGEdMqOD/DMJA1A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wAeygcUpPkE=:kZYuPdlvsBoWIw3hmmIGUc 1/Lwzz/7cv7IRec53MiT8LUfyvuOXaDwNVAjnYbMW5jvPg93nQTjJ2wEw/LCFVQPqVACVUntx 7l3E0oVgqkgRVBI7/j5rMP14bRMaAbiv85TfwC9cZYv0V+LjugcsF39KS04VVlkzrXUhhDo9p vpkpGOpkkLxVQFxKu1JVPSxqxrFcrRNs8v3HAuaiZpkafm5Jyo0fTp50V1tIePsYPFD294ayI gus2CVS9vt858nDi5ztDJ59KrUMxvRqyYRCjd3EjfUilBcqkdV56dA4Cu6BnylppJq8TGS7B8 j4FAYuzpYhzhhBJE3G027SelFqEEiHBWTmIoBs+IlJ2xlsJ+cpd4B083aB8P0QFGo86tZANf8 w7Wj2zVu1magsCzz/sJBX6gtfcqqk6EdK7h4Nb4n7YDw/biAWnEnqVwK+McKAr7dHIUJHZQNH PhV2l4ZDhKxAOMTeV1+XxcOkmmVJGEpVud9SBJFciaaRFkBM7RoUPO7nqUiXT2nv+UJ3i0QGe +T9a7RptFSnMzznhT0MMaZp61hIzHY/Acb4nYuYAldiHVS9/E02ulXAq15ytuXAoBGrJbYuS6 y2WrSZXkE69gxIbIQzyMQHSOGG54MrODIw7f4mkAJxnLM/m+wVQcqGoEBeP589Ci7yOF9qgdl MsmgxZ7+npYpbmiPX1CwRwM8BblXfebr7bMLDq6+Nydiz3CXqKChftiPTDK4vI5gXYbiWZq0+ FgaVN1JcT+1WFmqdwVmM2batUXyDGH9Y+PD0sSgWkkgZ/K204pVtPNJrqDgM9d9TuijVSYJsT YLcI49qf6vRSCfvJRxzuVMNWzbMeJVwnXmfcmOPZZ3hXcirjHR8oHg/SNBkgi1f9FTbLamF X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDnt82st1z42jg X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.29 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.224.215:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.38)[0.375]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.45)[0.447]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.07)[0.065]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:07:29 -0000 On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 22:46:23 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 9:06 PM Valeri Galtsev > wrote: > [...] > > > > Maybe you have some piece of software with memory leak (Oh, I just > > noticed you have said it yourself), and big enough swap space (like > > recommended 4 GB), and your machine starts swapping a lot. That can > > bring any machine to its knees. Until swap is exhausted, and system > > kills the offender. > > > > Firefox, a terminal and a audio player (deadbeef) and thats it. 12 > logical cores [AMD Ryzen 5 2600] 24 GB of RAM with 6 GB of swap backed by a > 1 TB SSD. The only thing I can think of is there is a HTML 5 game that I > often leave open all the time (one of those hurry up and wait multiplayer > strategy/war freemium games [Forge of Empires]) and that slows it down but > almost anything else I do besides the above also slows it down (for example > libreoffice slows the entire machine to a crawl if you select a cell range > in calc for copy/pasting [you don't need to actually copy and paste > anything just select the region]). Interesting. Cannot confirm on far inferior hardware (10 years old Lenovo laptop, 4 GB RAM, 300 GB SSD). :-) > If I start mysql-server it makes the > machine go out to lunch if I am using the GUI at all. > [...] > So the only possible conclusion I can draw > is it is X being extremely screwy on FreeBSD due to all the linux hacks in > it (this despite X's claim it will work on any POSIX machine with the right > video support). As we move more and more towards wayland as being the > pixel driver it gets worse. It hasn't alwas been the case. Even if we can assume that program complexity has increased, and so have hardware demands, compared to how memory and computing power have increased, my general observation is that "overall usage speed" has dropped. I don't say software has gotten slower (probably it has), but hardware didn't compensate it so far. Certain things are much faster, especially dedicated stuff like media decoding and encoding, or 3D rendering, or I/O, or network, but what you see, as a user, often hasn't. I have no valid explanation. When I compare today's environments where users complain about skipping audio when they play a MP3 file and move some windows across the screen, I cannot even imagine what I've been doing wrong for decades - because I never had that kind of problem. One of my first FreeBSD workstations was a 150 MHz Pentium PC with 32 MB RAM (that's Mega, not Giga!), later on upgraded to 128 MB, with a 10 GB PATA ("IDE") hard disk. On that system, I was able to play MP3 while downloading a FreeBSD installation CD, at the same time having compile some port, burn a previously downloaded CD, and browse the web with a still responsive Opera web browser (which, at that time, was the Linux version). Do you thin this sounds wrong? ;-) > > Incidentally, I've got question for experts. How "Out Of Memory" > > situation is handled by FreeBSD. I only dealt with [memory] "leaky" > > things under Linux, and OOM killer there really does its job well (and > > its way of judgement I do know). > > > > When out of swap and real memory it just starts killing of processes that > have not made any CPU requests recently. I tried to experiment with that on my old home PC, a real el-cheapo supermarket PC from 2007: In the web browser, I opened about 70 tabs with media content playing. I got this: 1 [|||| 7.9%] Tasks: 73, 0 thr; 1 running 2 [| 2.6%] Load average: 0.38 0.70 0.42 Mem[|||||||||||||||||||1601/1990MB] Uptime: 00:52:33 Swp[||||| 275/2047MB] CPU usage was increasing from time to time, and swap usage was also growing: Mem[|||||||||||||||||||1597/1990MB] Swp[|||||| 404/2047MB] The system was quite slow because of the swap I/O, but it was still responding. I could close several tabs and return the system to "halfway normal". Again, this sounds totally strange. > > > Yeuch, but it has nothing to do with making X work, X works just > > > fine for as long as you care to leave it running. I can't speak for Gnome > > > or KDE I don't use them, but with a simple WM X is as rock solid as it > > has > > > ever been. > > > > > The above is true regardless of WM or desktop, it is true of all Linux > derived GUI stuff. > > TL; DR -- X and wayland even more so have become far too tied to Linux for > them to really be considered workable on any other OS. There is some truth in this statement. Their ports available on FreeBSD compile, work, and run more or less like on Linux, but due to the fact that FreeBSD != Linux, there are some gaps in functionality. Workarounds created with piles of abstraction libraries don't help much. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 06:33:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A3337DE29 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDtRL6wKyz48qW for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=w0qenGRNRzoWpa4F7AeWkczVSBHI39uU264FI2XzSgE=; b=MPFRLIUKPIESGYj1PbiPMzZkd9 ZgDVQUlQ3j2Ux7dQ/kq358lQGVuTUalIrYqWiocdZNEq8kujHTaoNBtMCiGk/yk4Da70ysdrcMryf 4JW+Kqq9eEI9D7CBAve5UV7bvN7Xcbyx3e3nyY2pXwlV27ceK+rMLOhSvzXr4HwKuL6k=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzaDQ-0006ih-Bl for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:32:56 +0700 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:32:56 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDtRL6wKyz48qW X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=MPFRLIUK; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.81 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.67)[-0.669]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:04 -0000 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Valeri Galtsev wrote: >=20 > Incidentally, I've got question for experts. How "Out Of Memory" situation > is handled by FreeBSD. I only dealt with [memory] "leaky" things under > Linux, and OOM killer there really does its job well (and its way of > judgement I do know). I'm not an expert but I'm unimpressed with the way FreeBSD handles an OOM situation on a desktop. I have a FreeBSD desktop PC at home which is always under memory pressure: Xfce, my Firefox, my wife's Firefox with lots of tabs, several bhyve guests, a SMB server and other stuff. So the "swap_pager_getswapspace(11): failed" situation is rather frequent.=20 FreeBSD freezes, then kills some innocent random processes like local_unbound, then it may slowly recover. Sometimes it guesses correctly and kills the offender (firefox most often). --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJfHSOYAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0jB4H/2iYypfJ+zx9hDAaXRnbx0zy LMmnVVjP74EREm5gK2TZ6j8f6oGl1c/8I53okFteZ9n5aZn16jbT4+DqgO2M3U6l ytyZsM1JW5CVAcDgQPXLBz0BG7kjy4dgOiNZx3LvML0YUC1cKr50j5CapGGr4Ick NZRCcZlvOPMIWYw0N0ltqzmXuW46OWvgu6qXe2wHU1g5RJJkVdkEaUaWYJlTqbmo HdbrD8vnVfnBD7lVAALXEqRDrjggvw544We6LQblbAHCJNbgrPp6/C+cFvjabh+H a+CWohmIzvVmL9bMr1k+xTNw7eSDWLH/4rg+AmxVf1rOHjVXgJUna8PRPs0s8bY= =WX1q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 06:47:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DD537E69D for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:47:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005a8dccb.59c5ded82f733b39006dc01579366c64@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDtlS5Ktjz49k1 for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:46:58 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzaQy-0006RI-7t; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:46:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:46:55 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; 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TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.985]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005a8dccb.59c5ded82f733b39006dc01579366c64@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005a8dccb.59c5ded82f733b39006dc01579366c64@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:47:01 -0000 On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 22:46:23 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > The only thing I can think of is there is a HTML 5 game that I > often leave open all the time That is probably causing Firefox to eat huge amounts of memory starving everything else and making the system prone to swapping. Try closing that window, restarting Firefox and then seeing how well your machine works. > So the only possible conclusion I can draw > is it is X being extremely screwy on FreeBSD due to all the linux hacks in > it (this despite X's claim it will work on any POSIX machine with the > right video support). As we move more and more towards wayland as being > the pixel driver it gets worse. However that conclusion isn't supported by the experience of others, it seems far more likely you have a memory hog, find it and eliminate it (top is your friend, sorting my resident memory use) and system performance will improve no end, and yes it may be your desktop environment, but I'd bet on Firefox which leaks like a seive). -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 08:39:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136183A15BB for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:39:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005a94959.fc560945179cbe6626ae2ea64b9a0b02@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDxF52ytKz4H0F for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:39:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005a94959.fc560945179cbe6626ae2ea64b9a0b02@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595752761; x=1598344761; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=nwgOWdsThC1VujoWWi5XpS+1M3dgoI+7I69eBBVcdfA=; b=K14+6cakGY2CCfZZaQ+Yu3NL5GSGs+25OVht6Pb1NK8Iy70F4VJeikiKHvxCS4BsATCQB7ttNRwY3XpWNNEF90u39dLROhVyMucH/GduxABlZXltIhK2bCOPYXx/xn5E0DcAj5loOe87EvLzRjktO5inORABqnFFNWS2pd5EW2g= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDVhOTQ5NTkuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:39:12 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:39:11 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzcBa-0006pr-4S; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:39:10 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:39:09 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Victor Sudakov Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDxF52ytKz4H0F X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=K14+6cak; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005a94959.fc560945179cbe6626ae2ea64b9a0b02@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005a94959.fc560945179cbe6626ae2ea64b9a0b02@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.963]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.23)[-1.228]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005a94959.fc560945179cbe6626ae2ea64b9a0b02@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005a94959.fc560945179cbe6626ae2ea64b9a0b02@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:39:22 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:32:56 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > FreeBSD freezes, then kills some innocent random processes like > local_unbound, then it may slowly recover. Sometimes it guesses > correctly and kills the offender (firefox most often). What else would you have it do ? Kill the largest process ? Kill the last process to call malloc ? There is no good response to OOM. The OS has no way to know which processes you care about most. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 09:13:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B9B3A2351 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:13:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDy0x39m3z4JwN for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:13:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id l17so424871ilq.13 for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:13:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726050723.c46cfaa3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200726050723.c46cfaa3.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:13:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Polytropon Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDy0x39m3z4JwN X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=fFXpBSBX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.92 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::142:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.923]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:13:54 -0000 On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:07 PM Polytropon wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 22:46:23 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > If I start mysql-server it makes the > > machine go out to lunch if I am using the GUI at all. > > [...] > > So the only possible conclusion I can draw > > is it is X being extremely screwy on FreeBSD due to all the linux hacks > in > > it (this despite X's claim it will work on any POSIX machine with the > right > > video support). As we move more and more towards wayland as being the > > pixel driver it gets worse. > > It hasn't alwas been the case. Even if we can assume that > program complexity has increased, and so have hardware demands, > compared to how memory and computing power have increased, > my general observation is that "overall usage speed" has > dropped. I don't say software has gotten slower (probably > it has), but hardware didn't compensate it so far. I agree (except that software has demonstrably gotten slower compared to hardware performance) see the following Quora answer I wrote under my pen name: https://www.quora.com/How-is-Moores-Law-relevant-to-programmers-computer-science/answer/Marcas-Neal (Summary software development practices have the result of giving a inverse Moore's Law on software). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 09:47:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A843A28C4 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:47:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd41.google.com (mail-io1-xd41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDylK2YPjz4LQb for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd41.google.com with SMTP id t15so5090690iob.3 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:47:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:47:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:46:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDylK2YPjz4LQb X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Old22kW5; 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TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:47:10 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 2:47 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 22:46:23 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > The only thing I can think of is there is a HTML 5 game that I > > often leave open all the time > > That is probably causing Firefox to eat huge amounts of memory > starving everything else and making the system prone to swapping. Try > closing that window, restarting Firefox and then seeing how well your > machine works. > I have already done this experiment and can tell you while it is *PARTIALLY* firefox it is also a fundamental problem with X (and not just the desktop). Experimental lab report: Hypothesis: One or more applications has a resource leak that causes X windows, the app(s) (and all other apps running on the system) to have drastic performance decreases (as measured by response time on non-CPU intensive I/O events) Experiment: Step 1) Reboot machine and start X Step 2) Measure performance Step 3) Start one or more of the offending apps let it run long enough to cause a noticeable performance impact Step 4) Measure performance Step 5) Terminate the offending app(s) via their normal/recommended shutdown method. Step 6) Measure performance Step 7) Repeat steps 3 thru 7 until noticeable loss of performance is noted in step 6 Expected results if there is no system wide performance loss due to the offending apps running: Step 7 should be repeated an undecidable (see CS definition of "undecidable") number of times. If step 7 can only be done 0 time and/or a very small number times (less than 3 times) then we consider this "proof" that the problem is at least partially external to the offending apps. Actual results: While there is a measurable gain in performance in step 6 it does not return to its performance level measured in step 2. Step 7 can only be repeated once before performance becomes unacceptable. Alternative possible explanation: Offending apps and X are not the most current versions from the ports collection. Counter proof to alternative explanation: I update my ports collection at least every 24 hours with the following sequence of commands: cd /usr/ports svn update (read UPDATING if modified) portmaster -ad With the most recent results being: Updated to revision 543457. root@neomarx:/usr/ports # portmaster -ad ===>>> Gathering distinfo list for installed ports ===>>> Starting check of installed ports for available updates ===>>> All ports are up to date and problem has slowly been getting worse Conclusion: While the offending apps (firefox, libreoffice and any multimedia player) do decrease performance stopping and restarting them does not completely solve the problem nor does the problem completely disappear when said apps are not running. This experiment succeeds for all non-X apps and thus we are forced to conclude that at least some of the problem is in X itself in that it never completely deallocates the resources allocated to a given program even after the program terminates. Since the offending apps and GUI config are known to work on Linux without serious performance decay we can only conclude that there is something that causes bad interaction between X and FreeBSD. Repeated attempts at the above experiment over time so the number of times step 7 can be performed are drastically decreasing from essentially undecidable 2 years ago to less then 2 currently and the main difference during this time is the push to make FreeBSD more friendly for X and wayland. > > So the only possible conclusion I can draw > > is it is X being extremely screwy on FreeBSD due to all the linux hacks > in > > it (this despite X's claim it will work on any POSIX machine with the > > right video support). As we move more and more towards wayland as being > > the pixel driver it gets worse. > > However that conclusion isn't supported by the experience of > others, it seems far more likely you have a memory hog, find it and > eliminate it (top is your friend, sorting my resident memory use) and > system performance will improve no end, and yes it may be your desktop > environment, but I'd bet on Firefox which leaks like a seive). > See above. Top clearly shows that X itself is using increasing resources throughout the entire experiment (not just the apps). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 10:32:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EB53A38FE for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:32:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x844.google.com (mail-qt1-x844.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::844]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDzls2SQkz4Q33 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x844.google.com with SMTP id s23so10105827qtq.12 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:32:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=A1ZOetkyOt1VqTN0xTpETPmSFLH4AmGnz8l/lnNGWPk=; b=FoLHKQrfANG6227zt3M5kPqaynL9sgIT8uvg/0l2rtXtFDekfGW4hanBmqQkaGIuh0 r+8vjY5LaXrExLCDUM9pcCG/XYXCYGo9JPBRrpNKRf5dZ3wX76hnJvjCCVsR/Uw5q9ew NxeSYTeMedL/AvzLsoW3VMT+FvzisswT3tarE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=A1ZOetkyOt1VqTN0xTpETPmSFLH4AmGnz8l/lnNGWPk=; b=rWJi/ZSO9PbTJRd+ncwaYcq4mID+1Q4sxSVGw844PWb7dhmnewbuxuofY47QRf30Kb UanNSzXJUeNDcZUMMpR/SEXNUtbEYTU7/Tv7rhA87MTjX4pqu5lMSVLAKvvCsFDWvcZg ZZbKTSIZsvVUQq5YFzHI/HKCEA/CGeOWFPYpRFK/M6Zcuq0eRORONMJW28KU1ImsEbrV C6UziUif+z7x6vKZ0OP9+L71dQPqDuutM9sUQSMPy4HZh984lvTyYUCJgmkg/08ZEe7l L5WDvKdXE8aIHj3gYTpeL2YGLvHsQfSwW+mNcbj50xm5/hCXcsasP1XBe9YFWedNuxOq gruA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PWzEVxojZ+XpGvh1yffapfpFWwVTRtwdsHbFgbIvc0RlAyZj8 2OvgK1Na66n1rDOYk+sbzifZaSVN8kI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyn7yhdypHr8gnDjQKpHCq6fB/WhtrNHnY5d3f64RAdicd5J/xIpfs3dS2gquTyNgir5fo67w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5241:: with SMTP id y1mr17367983qtn.102.1595759188725; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y50sm10631570qtk.29.2020.07.26.03.26.26 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDzcf0F1Jz1FSD for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:26:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:26:16 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200726062616.6939812c@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <6DF45E1F-5F76-432C-99F4-69E6198EFF73@kreme.com> References: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <6DF45E1F-5F76-432C-99F4-69E6198EFF73@kreme.com> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/lfIB2SoUMv8hYnWTR6RTRIJ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDzls2SQkz4Q33 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=FoLHKQrf; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::844 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.08 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.446]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.962]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.911]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::844:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:32:42 -0000 --Sig_/lfIB2SoUMv8hYnWTR6RTRIJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 14:56:06 -0600, @lbutlr stated: >On 25 Jul 2020, at 09:24, Victor Sudakov wrote: >> Michael Watters wrote: =20 >>>=20 >>> On 7/24/2020 9:39 AM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: =20 >>>> Why do I have to choose between Linux and FreeBSD? Why can't I have >>>> both? I also use NetBSD, OpenBSD, Android, occasionally Windows. >>>> Am I a traitor? Am I an infidel? =20 >> =20 >>> While it's fun to test out and play with different OSes it makes >>> life much simpler if you standardize on *one* platform. Most >>> organizations have standards and policies about what operating >>> systems are allowed on their servers. =20 >>=20 >> This is very true. And when it comes to choice between Linux and >> FreeBSD (as a company policy), despite my love for FreeBSD and long >> time (over 20 years) experience therewith, I find there is very >> little I can now rationally present as arguments to choose FreeBSD >> over Linux. =20 > >The tipping point for me has been the explosion in Docker use. > >It is trivial to throw up a minimal Linux server and then load a ton >of docker containers on it, and that is a combination that is hard to >beat. I have opinions on tis, of course, but they are not relevant to >this. > >I setup a machine for someone to act as a HTPC using linux and a >half-dozen docker containers. It took about an hour, and the system is >largely idiot-proof. I'm not sure it would have been possible to use >the same software at all under FreeBSD and it certainly would have >taken much much longer. > >That said, I will continue to use FreeBSD for the mail server and my >stuff because I am used to *BSD and I find it annoying when I have to >switch to Linux, so the real stuff is still FreeBSD and will be. But a >lot of stuff is already Linux and will continue to be. Common sense says you should use the best tool for the job; unfortunately, common sense is not all that common. In relationship to the subject of this thread, too many users simply ignore an OS out of prejudice or lack of knowledge (usually both). I have been using computers since the mid the mid 1980's. I actually have an old 8086 PC. I doubt that it runs though. If the user is going to run "X" with "KDE" for instance, FreeBSD is NOT the OS of choice. Sure, you can get it to run in a depreciated manner, but then again I can pound a nail into a 2x4 with a screwdriver, but is that really the best use of the screwdriver? The user interested in performance will choose Linux as his tool of choice. Now, several mail products like Postfix, of data programs like MySQL run flawlessly on FreeBSD. So, in that case, all things being equal, I would probably choose FreeBSD to run them. Besides, it allows me to keep different processes separated from each other. If one unit blows up, the other one is still operational. Of course, cloud based operations come into play here, but that is another story. Finally, when I need to use Adobe DC or Dreamweaver or Photoshop, then I use a Microsoft product. I totally believe in in the 'KISS' principal. A computer works for me, not the other way around. If I purchase a gas powered vehicle, I would not expect it to work with diesel fuel. In my humble opinion, attempting to use 'X' or 'KDE' and probable most other similar programs on FreeBSD is just a lot of wasted effort. Of course, if you are not interested in 100% compatibility and top performance, then please do continue to enjoy yourself, just don't bother bitching to everyone else about your problems. You knew, or should have know that you were not going to get optimal performance right from the start. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/lfIB2SoUMv8hYnWTR6RTRIJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8dWkkACgkQOHMGOIfe xWToywf/a1BX8IloR8wh58LRiUz4nEZOqdRv5ra0gydum/QJv/Nog3ZoUAA9dEZM ha9O0ZllUynPCR50Mt2t1Z0W35WCEYlnQXWVQ00ysBixQk2i7aPO+TL0ldIHCe8V 9gM3JwltzeXUZBJ8em3EUE8IH02SOCveuJmtSKGUGYD/JSi0HA3fUusyluU92BnI wthtyN+39T7jfJkV9c7CpLpCFWV9SM7zr7aK/wF/c4JPdEFi0Of2wZ05psWL5wXk iDZ2LbLic9UuJ9TS5XcdzoJTwAjpaZ9LM5akJaanbP8RcLZVs6RlBqTJDlx2UCjb RKDA566EXiXBJp9CPeMcws7wu0tT+w== =0Ypg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/lfIB2SoUMv8hYnWTR6RTRIJ-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 10:50:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436AF3A455F for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=PodFpoSs52gIi7LbnJAt1XMbgCn7IAYEDCGMaBLz32E=; b=FLPND0B1UOVW5exGHt8q0U/ZNEMPz9ZRKAsXweg1lrsPiN3zRj18UrmySE/MMgF1MM Ix9rVpb7B5uTL962y7iZ78Q/STtOWrijOi047LHuRyrYIVsCJQ0ckIBiRC3kAAKSgZqZ rQpwsC1JRUxbjcjXMKpb1I9LgwMY9dd+oFMMRRQqQ/kqvh0ssR5prKX6HItM++fWWy6q LN0PBmUR9XVjP+XAAU95KvlFMwumafM/cwUkUbgKh7ByxpmEyqcwVvQak9Drf4ZF1Bgd fcQXUJnBLP5cQP+oA3E5vgz+Woex8+Oo7kVBk1F2oTpkWi5nhlJ/B8dGDdkoDYMYGQN0 Kxdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5304I8TOzu5gdFtKR/Kyy/PvvpCA5T5fMS9Q+MgeXLmyUT+mqnV3 OpKm5d5d/l4Sv1CGf83I5hY1fJ9Zk0F5ZR0QSS9brpYE3J0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8E5GHJZAZC8aNq6wlpetwZ2Acvx8nc21d27xgwpHQQM3i4JuCLuhyi12+tva6ubpdtzBEOLXRCSTRTAChlXI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c789:: with SMTP id n9mr20314708jao.40.1595760637750; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:50:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <6DF45E1F-5F76-432C-99F4-69E6198EFF73@kreme.com> <20200726062616.6939812c@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200726062616.6939812c@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:50:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF08Z6bfWz4QpM X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Hw/nK3zO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.988]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.492]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:50:40 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 6:32 AM Jerry wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 14:56:06 -0600, @lbutlr stated: > >On 25 Jul 2020, at 09:24, Victor Sudakov wrote: > >> Michael Watters wrote: > >>> > >>> On 7/24/2020 9:39 AM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > >>>> Why do I have to choose between Linux and FreeBSD? Why can't I have > >>>> both? I also use NetBSD, OpenBSD, Android, occasionally Windows. > >>>> Am I a traitor? Am I an infidel? > >> > >>> While it's fun to test out and play with different OSes it makes > >>> life much simpler if you standardize on *one* platform. Most > >>> organizations have standards and policies about what operating > >>> systems are allowed on their servers. > >> > >> This is very true. And when it comes to choice between Linux and > >> FreeBSD (as a company policy), despite my love for FreeBSD and long > >> time (over 20 years) experience therewith, I find there is very > >> little I can now rationally present as arguments to choose FreeBSD > >> over Linux. > > > >The tipping point for me has been the explosion in Docker use. > > > >It is trivial to throw up a minimal Linux server and then load a ton > >of docker containers on it, and that is a combination that is hard to > >beat. I have opinions on tis, of course, but they are not relevant to > >this. > > > >I setup a machine for someone to act as a HTPC using linux and a > >half-dozen docker containers. It took about an hour, and the system is > >largely idiot-proof. I'm not sure it would have been possible to use > >the same software at all under FreeBSD and it certainly would have > >taken much much longer. > > > >That said, I will continue to use FreeBSD for the mail server and my > >stuff because I am used to *BSD and I find it annoying when I have to > >switch to Linux, so the real stuff is still FreeBSD and will be. But a > >lot of stuff is already Linux and will continue to be. > > Common sense says you should use the best tool for the job; > unfortunately, common sense is not all that common. In relationship to > the subject of this thread, too many users simply ignore an OS out of > prejudice or lack of knowledge (usually both). I have been using > computers since the mid the mid 1980's. I actually have an old 8086 PC. > I doubt that it runs though. > > If the user is going to run "X" with "KDE" for instance, FreeBSD is > NOT the OS of choice. Sure, you can get it to run in a depreciated > manner, but then again I can pound a nail into a 2x4 with a > screwdriver, but is that really the best use of the screwdriver? The > user interested in performance will choose Linux as his tool of choice. > Now, several mail products like Postfix, of data programs like MySQL > run flawlessly on FreeBSD. So, in that case, all things being equal, I > would probably choose FreeBSD to run them. Besides, it allows me to keep > different processes separated from each other. If one unit blows up, > the other one is still operational. Of course, cloud based operations > come into play here, but that is another story. > > Finally, when I need to use Adobe DC or Dreamweaver or Photoshop, then I > use a Microsoft product. > > I totally believe in in the 'KISS' principal. A computer works for me, > not the other way around. If I purchase a gas powered vehicle, I would > not expect it to work with diesel fuel. In my humble opinion, > attempting to use 'X' or 'KDE' and probable most other similar > programs on FreeBSD is just a lot of wasted effort. Of course, if you are not interested in 100% compatibility and top performance, then > please do continue to enjoy yourself, just don't bother bitching to > everyone else about your problems. You knew, or should have know that > you were not going to get optimal performance right from the start. > Only problem is both X and KDE (I use xfce4 but I do have KDE components installed) claim they work flawlessly on *ANY* POSIX compliant machine that has the proper graphics support. Since I use nVidia and the hardware vendor in this case publishes a driver specifically meant to run on FreeBSD (which it does and in all cases but KDE and GNOME it gives excellent performance [on par with any Linux benchmark]) there is no reason why someone should expect them to not work with the same performance they do on Linux. Just saying FreeBSD is not the right OS is kicking the can down the street and not offering any real solution to a problem the developers of the subsystems in question claim doesn't exist (thus running them on Linux is not a real solution either). Thus the real bug is the developer's claims and not the OS per se. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 11:35:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA933A5268 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:35:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x842.google.com (mail-qt1-x842.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::842]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF18t2X1Xz4TGZ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:35:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x842.google.com with SMTP id 6so10215127qtt.0 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:35:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=TtiKwuoyEVBrDvnxHP3bB+9rhxOueD08rzc0xl7gpM8=; b=HTrO62fwj8oTecEegECGMHRa0yugwhQT82pHKRWxVMIaOW4q2aNevtzE720pWw8Ybb BzYEqy3V7YRB+Mq9OzE3FPRQZsyKSDSeUGXzEPLqXMP0IBTetBZBETykpG3FRFaPS48M bejHezSvx/tbEWQi+Bbc2Hpel8kVyeuCg1R+M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=TtiKwuoyEVBrDvnxHP3bB+9rhxOueD08rzc0xl7gpM8=; b=cDvPR1Cdyw2fkJF8c0yaC+gzF0WubUeUTH36kPEU2VYAVpdV3holKkLBPDnGBABr6s hlfB5JjEu3OYA8Wz4bpaA+2vIgO7syX/OlL+Lagcni/6n04QiwmyZMawIJ5jU4KtjDpJ 3fCEdFb4vzKDjJt5YDULMDSxV6RK2pbM/XOQDWGh5Gx1PdYLxFSHTk/OSSipAMNFdPWL hUwEdjTrDM1OQKmFHsOvC940kvJcW4WjQ/CSXBECV7T/Vtnmze3WfDQaSfbAoaIJxFTM 4jEN09D75z2os4Kb46AscUnZq99dMTZYkwUTdiIsRPH1TN2e6iO6St0UtrEC+pXmEgNG k+Gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Oo7kGqLo1K/BjnjP84xNkDHxP3ZdFj8dNDZ9D0OtLbKVfJaUP VW+t+U8s1U9R0f5op2WgHZegAPQ710g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwUFMuXR3wRDhZS/k7huecxNhO1Wr/vO5kyxtbVnsn8y9o7zKX8sfDb+w3ebAEDioMSmd9f5Q== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:480c:: with SMTP id g12mr7452232qtq.257.1595763356981; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q198sm13957220qka.51.2020.07.26.04.35.55 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF18p4MTvz1FW4 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:35:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:35:48 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200726073548.05bded7f@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <6DF45E1F-5F76-432C-99F4-69E6198EFF73@kreme.com> <20200726062616.6939812c@scorpio.seibercom.net> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/i0o/GJMybKwTQQPvTchxbrq"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF18t2X1Xz4TGZ X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=HTrO62fw; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::842 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.07 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.454]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.953]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.919]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::842:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:35:59 -0000 --Sig_/i0o/GJMybKwTQQPvTchxbrq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:50:26 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >are not interested in 100% compatibility and top performance, then >> please do continue to enjoy yourself, just don't bother bitching to >> everyone else about your problems. You knew, or should have know that >> you were not going to get optimal performance right from the start. There is the crux of the problem. You claim to be not interested in 100% compatibility and top performance and then bitch that you are not getting the results you expected under the environment you are operating it under. I have a friend who owns a donkey. He loves that animal and rides him quite often. Never-the-less, he is not naive enough to think that it will ever win the Kentucky Derby. The point being, at some point any sane human being accepts reality as it exists and stops bitching like a little girl. If you don't like your reality, then you are free to change it; bitching about is only a waste of time. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/i0o/GJMybKwTQQPvTchxbrq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8dapQACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSVxAgAjgI52WTqRy1zLf5QLjekq2kS/1ckKJwvo0wKYyuE0G0mzLgHHt9ZjrO9 R0WmSrYUEPcO0ZrdeqgidSI4IsV+zqF1mJ3JXWWqtCID1zQ+9bJZdo7YFGqwDGb4 6QY9kH0lYooNHlvgn/Zh1LKY2NzcjXje5HYV1EjRRZ+NGFOcv7OoH8sWDz/WOvEA iffOMyGhqFLEQkIpSf1Yvoez1h43pKk4N9EYbt1xBeVoBErNxROSCTZlnyDbkF9X ttkxSV2TTT/C0amnZy8EtFNkTcYs86d7GDoC7c5qiX4RTAs84Tw++57JBL1iL8Lj OkCFazdzpWj+pF9N9LkY2dJsOm9H4g== =EC94 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/i0o/GJMybKwTQQPvTchxbrq-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 11:50:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3ED23A58AA for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:50:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd43.google.com (mail-io1-xd43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF1V871sjz4Tgd for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:50:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd43.google.com with SMTP id d18so14185373ion.0 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:50:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=X1VecWt8iH7sHXX1XsTEpg7MS9TECQW3LXwqKD4P80A=; b=uoH317RpphEm59gwY36OHX739kFBwzaGNFIMpepOWpIJflqs6ftwLKfsIPcRo3fvT5 iwdQQw1lEZNYK45II5AoBxwWZAkJlOL2CinB/g/XixepMjU0xqQti5iCQPSFPbfKWalW 0T0AhCjkZQT3ppcU6aoJ5C9MT3RJI85fsjkdtSd9a8rivu6lh++hYWZZiC47fYMIS08p IHGYgPFDDB3Jvwjw/vsaZvD5zLs5tuq/L4jfW32s+JqTdwlEnro8dEnAndw4sFdY+7MD IIg+RfZJohj/odrgRlg6kYIshZ/aUraHgfTiKdwuj6VmKOajLNXKl3dZdtmDluD19zPc 4yRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=X1VecWt8iH7sHXX1XsTEpg7MS9TECQW3LXwqKD4P80A=; b=T1heoAWuec2rTzLkHMVey7a3E0luaLUuR3E4oaENgU2XwGBPm78ieBdSOcw5QO1xdD 7C+5kpGdbOfdG/8i/ntkc/+UkVcwaVXRfozXrt0shFvf8DmIEwUXwt4STaKalQg0N+kC tlpjUaPZ8ZgyXokXXTrlqrcXhl0CpAT/GE3Ej5m5nChaaC4QT9LxfEmKwVbyeNfSvVWx 00p4IA4DZgcP7/FqpCzFYOBfviTKFr2MFzLzHCYFshAo8+ON0trimRJ/pehoVot88A2U UgyZcw05jTLexIkpQgDB1dPiAbqkU4hHGbkuSB5m5OybT0/6zRe4XC7goPThqfekRB5P A55w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532x2VYmcbmEiHizIwGcWgUaa2CbSQw1PwL5+Y3p62iJ7onNx6+y UH23ErXMQrp3bjR0uMR2hhGTKxkTCcLJ+cYLRmWd3ij/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyr6ynPXYPuMscbRqBknRMoml6Kk8KL9SI1R4m91wBPlqSTv2eBVSP1+K1JMFPzzVaCDmvHJOr8HC/nqgrZb5o= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c789:: with SMTP id n9mr20538726jao.40.1595764255215; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 04:50:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <6DF45E1F-5F76-432C-99F4-69E6198EFF73@kreme.com> <20200726062616.6939812c@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200726073548.05bded7f@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200726073548.05bded7f@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:50:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF1V871sjz4Tgd X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=uoH317Rp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.492]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:50:58 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 7:36 AM Jerry wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:50:26 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >are not interested in 100% compatibility and top performance, then > >> please do continue to enjoy yourself, just don't bother bitching to > >> everyone else about your problems. You knew, or should have know that > >> you were not going to get optimal performance right from the start. > > There is the crux of the problem. You claim to be not interested in > 100% compatibility and top performance and then bitch that you are not > getting the results you expected under the environment you are > operating it under. > There is a *HUGE* difference between "top performance" and "100% compatibility" and being usable at all. What I am complaining about it is that the performance is so bad it is unusable once it gets loaded down with any serious (for example I had to wait 5 seconds between the time I typed the '(' in this parenthetical and the time it appeared on the screen, that is not usable by any definition). As a IoT web app developer I need to use something that has a GUI and frankly Linux is a piece of flying crap when it comes to using it for programming, windows is slightly better then Linux even in this regard. So if I am going to be able to work without spending an insane amount of money on hardware (and the utility bills that come along with having more physical machines than is needed, not to mention the environmental harm of the same) and/or losing productivity because of a crappy development environment then desktop FreeBSD is the only real option. Since I am not made out of money and my clients pay-by-the hour linux is out the question (so is windows). So I wonder if you will ever admit that for *SOME* use cases (like mine) running desktop apps on FreeBSD (even with crappy performance if not frequently rebooted) is better than any other OS for *THAT* use case. I have a friend who owns a donkey. He loves that animal and rides him > quite often. Never-the-less, he is not naive enough to think that it > will ever win the Kentucky Derby. The point being, at some point any > sane human being accepts reality as it exists and stops bitching like > a little girl. If you don't like your reality, then you are free to > change it; bitching about is only a waste of time. > I am not looking for a race horse. I only want a rideable animal that has all 4 legs. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:12:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EE33A6794 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:12:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF1z92yYMz4Vnd for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:12:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF1z73p92zFctJ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:12:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595765555; bh=GTiaC9kNY2KrfPS02lkkX8PZInoONwZB7dOq6i4HXBc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=NyaqCkcdpH4FHF0eN3Wtn9nqC2IPdE8J6b7kM4pB0+zZQ23NnVixpgVoiEoEZdMnC 0NcPJ2OOzc54nmPCxqfp8Evo2bDRoT0ez52dSjwY/D0lDCVVuXjGgTBrSJSA9uKNxH 5/fw+b45+Y+9AuCmbbr+L/hgUgINCInHariMAqoU= X-Riseup-User-ID: 7B52B057B988A57BB27906DDE212051455A8A27A2DB07454E0BB02EEC5138AD5 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BF1z66Mnwz8tdQ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:12:31 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200726141231.5442f58f@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <6DF45E1F-5F76-432C-99F4-69E6198EFF73@kreme.com> <20200726062616.6939812c@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200726073548.05bded7f@scorpio.seibercom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF1z92yYMz4Vnd X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=NyaqCkcd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.375]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:12:38 -0000 "don't give him any water, not even to drink. But the most important rule, the rule you can never forget, no matter how much he cries, no matter how much he begs, never feed him after midnight." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:28:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5AC3A6E96 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:28:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF2KR1hQdz4WZQ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:28:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: tbz file from pkg Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:28:25 -0600 References: <20200725203801.9a4965b8.freebsd@edvax.de> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3649) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF2KR1hQdz4WZQ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.918]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.868]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:28:28 -0000 > On 25 Jul 2020, at 15:15, Lonnie Cumberland = wrote: >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > I find that I do not need a fully blown shell script, so I cobbled = together > a single set of shell commands that will convert "*.txz" file to = "*.tbz" > files and it seems to work. >=20 > # find *txz -iname '*txz' | while read txz; do echo "Found: $txz"; > name=3D$(echo "$txz" | sed -e 's/\.[^.]*$//'); mkdir -p tmp/$name; tar = -xjf > $txz -C tmp/$name; cd tmp/$name; tar cvfj ../../$name.tbz .; cd ../..; = rm > -Rf tmp/$name; rm -Rf tmp; done Hmm. I would not fully extract the tar file, but uncompress it and = recompress it. There is no need to explode the tar archive into = individual files. unxr file.txz bzip2 < file.tar > my_files.tbz Should manage the basic functionality.=20 for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2< $(name%.tar}.tbz; done Or something like that (assuming your shell is bash, or I think this is = also valid in zsh). Not tested, but that's going to get you 95% of the = way there if it's not quite right. You can leave off the name substitution if you're ok with the result = being named file.tar.bz2 instead of file.tbz. --=20 Grow a pair of tits, Coldwater. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:32:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022403A6FC9 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:32:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF2Px1xQBz4WqF for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:32:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: tbz file from pkg Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:32:19 -0600 References: <20200725203801.9a4965b8.freebsd@edvax.de> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7ED1C2F2-B3E7-463B-95DB-C58CF6008CA3@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3649) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF2Px1xQBz4WqF X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.917]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.870]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:32:22 -0000 On 26 Jul 2020, at 06:28, @lbutlr wrote: > > for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2< $(name%.tar}.tbz; done Copy/apste is my enemy, again. That should read, of course, for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2< $(file%.tar}.tbz; done apologies. -- I've never done good things I've never done bad things I've never done anything out of the blue From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:33:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A393A7160 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:33:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF2RP0hQcz4X9S for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:33:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: tbz file from pkg Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:35 -0600 References: <20200725203801.9a4965b8.freebsd@edvax.de> <7ED1C2F2-B3E7-463B-95DB-C58CF6008CA3@kreme.com> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <7ED1C2F2-B3E7-463B-95DB-C58CF6008CA3@kreme.com> Message-Id: <464D3ED6-6A05-495C-BC21-2C5C3277F2A1@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3649) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF2RP0hQcz4X9S X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.917]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.870]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:33:37 -0000 On 26 Jul 2020, at 06:32, @lbutlr wrote: > > for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2< $(file%.tar}.tbz; done Stepping away from the computer to go drink a pot of coffee. for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2 $(file%.tar}.tbz; done -- Argh. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:43:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB4F3A7362 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:43:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005ae1bb7.636c60c9ad8ccce460613bb605f57e3a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF2g303Cgz4XWh for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:43:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005ae1bb7.636c60c9ad8ccce460613bb605f57e3a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595767423; x=1598359423; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=35kBGvMErWH1gorPLdMc3TG7+QiW8Kri8hBAkW82j00=; b=ff67q3aH33Bo0ARPIdCFwaVSJ3KBnqe2KWjxRw9ZifTtNgJLFyrn3ITErU7HGqGqMpH+/dS7yDWNMAzyYx57Pyqw/KxyPiSxv6jzZrP7FNk3etVWBDi/AQ/FS1WAwklcVV/2aL8iIHjQyyv69HCHrxsHH6zke2+yIkt3wcrXTHY= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDVhZTFiYjcuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:33 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:33 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzg03-0007cU-Rf for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:43:31 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:43:31 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF2g303Cgz4XWh X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=ff67q3aH; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005ae1bb7.636c60c9ad8ccce460613bb605f57e3a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005ae1bb7.636c60c9ad8ccce460613bb605f57e3a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.015]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.960]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.905]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005ae1bb7.636c60c9ad8ccce460613bb605f57e3a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005ae1bb7.636c60c9ad8ccce460613bb605f57e3a@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:43:43 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:46:55 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 2:47 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > > I have already done this experiment and can tell you while it is > *PARTIALLY* firefox it is also a fundamental problem with X (and not just > the desktop). Experimental lab report: If it were a fundamental problem with X then we would all be suffering it. I can run X for months on end without trouble or leaks other than Firefox. > Hypothesis: One or more applications has a resource leak that causes X > windows, the app(s) (and all other apps running on the system) to have > drastic performance decreases (as measured by response time on non-CPU > intensive I/O events) Anything that eats memory uncontrollably will do that, with or without X. > Experiment: > Step 1) Reboot machine and start X > Step 2) Measure performance > Step 3) Start one or more of the offending apps let it run long enough to > cause a noticeable performance impact > Step 4) Measure performance > Step 5) Terminate the offending app(s) via their normal/recommended > shutdown method. > Step 6) Measure performance > Step 7) Repeat steps 3 thru 7 until noticeable loss of performance is > noted in step 6 That sounds like swap recovery to me. > Expected results if there is no system wide performance loss due to the > offending apps running: Step 7 should be repeated an undecidable (see CS There is system wide performance loss due to pages having been pushed out to swap and needing to be pulled in to be used. The more times you push the memory over the edge like that the more random things get pushed out to swap and the more random delays there will be as they get pulled back in. This happens because some of the stuff that got pushed to swap the first time round never comes back in (it isn't used often enough) and so every time round more and more important stuff gets pushed out to swap. Here is a variant of your experiment that should demonstrate it. 1: Reboot machine, measure performance 2: Memory stress machine to until swapping reduces performance 3: Kill memory stressing process 4: Disable swap - which forces all pages back into RAM 5: Enable swap 6: Loop to 2 I think you'll find that will behave consistently until the hardware fails. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:55:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF333A7905 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:55:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lonnie@outstep.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF2wN3C03z4XjR for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:55:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lonnie@outstep.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id z3so600952ilh.3 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:55:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FQTjawkxZh5bHpXjrwSt0l9QCR6KRwtEm0AIujLHxdQ=; b=Nng9/rsHnDd7YGymRUQ+3fbDTKLBXk3765VuNwu8FeL1CxbcOXP52zkR5EGHoSiJxP UDS9+mlNMESfN/oBUsEaFOktiiFhq9ifStEGmEWEh+I+mDLarLXycJLOx+toYqqeoFHL K9LIBaQqcsHKPALR/aMNxRfhIgoEaeIPYnjFP6LlPZWCtodTJEiV/VrqFIg1PwrieySp 2S/Zw9OccDv1Znlta3P3yjKy7Mvs1M66b/iMJXKaw6NAdOXIEaexyJVnTBpq3ouJ+CtT AzNayhgBKFaJ0+E6s8qDZfFyAFZv2s7v7nk2I2T+0UIIPLk/E69O+zMz8uoeErtcKj+i 9BOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FQTjawkxZh5bHpXjrwSt0l9QCR6KRwtEm0AIujLHxdQ=; b=VI3Z/mVXn6AdUBzqJW9SVs+YVhflbbFTLM5GvUHhMXOG4p/v7I0JtpMRyQVJP1J+dP FU8ZL+XagSJaEbUw7MyKKGtSdsxCoPmug3kpBF7B6LvHd84k56XipI1MakbAh4CYlMFH ocVe9kW8X+8gikjjm1CPAmkJFTRAwY2W/biaLFJHijFFz5yv/RzmGNkW/aa4zzqkUNcK a5Qn+cJVihqjMLsf0/OUuZ51ZEnSQj+DV8iYwPg0zShTs7UMSelcazzy//V1skti5Uxd 4h6/4kNzM2EvinXVEsOhLaaTivcW13WABdrGsobA4ANrsyc0rag43Y2zD0u/ipb3Siga PC7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533oyJEl3IQyFQaKeNnkh+pal5xiMaCOQjH+9UkgAj2RNIGeKffE DfzwMTjIxdK0U3NsrEAmdpwORlP4/M89fkR4hhiiig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxOS/9cjbmsWOY12ctms/l7PWi9zTPVPP6aC7HmqTA3Q3/zQO9LDI3rGt4NMDBh8eSzRPjlMhpsvbAC8kPCjpQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:545:: with SMTP id i5mr14757460ils.59.1595768115101; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:55:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725203801.9a4965b8.freebsd@edvax.de> <7ED1C2F2-B3E7-463B-95DB-C58CF6008CA3@kreme.com> <464D3ED6-6A05-495C-BC21-2C5C3277F2A1@kreme.com> In-Reply-To: <464D3ED6-6A05-495C-BC21-2C5C3277F2A1@kreme.com> From: Lonnie Cumberland Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:55:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: tbz file from pkg To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF2wN3C03z4XjR X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Nng9/rsH; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=outstep.com (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f is neither permitted nor denied by domain of lonnie@outstep.com) smtp.mailfrom=lonnie@outstep.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.503]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[outstep.com : No valid SPF, DKIM not aligned (relaxed), none] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:55:17 -0000 Thanks for the syntax and functionality improvements. It is getting better all of the time. Cheers On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:33 AM @lbutlr wrote: > On 26 Jul 2020, at 06:32, @lbutlr wrote: > > > > for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2< $(file%.tar}.tbz; done > > Stepping away from the computer to go drink a pot of coffee. > > for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2 $(file%.tar}.tbz; done > > -- > Argh. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:56:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB77D3A77CC for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:56:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binhtien1162@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF2xk5mSZz4Y4h for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:56:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200722214343.3d90cbe2@archlinux> <20200723153710.GF46914@bastion.zyxst.net> In-Reply-To: <20200723153710.GF46914@bastion.zyxst.net> From: Nguyen Binh Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:56:13 +0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) To: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF2xk5mSZz4Y4h X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=VaKUuE0/; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of binhtien1162@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::434 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=binhtien1162@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.929]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.901]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::434:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.54)[-0.537]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:56:27 -0000 http://topandten.blogspot.com/search/label/How%20To V=C3=A0o Th 5, 23 thg 7, 2020 va=CC=80o lu=CC=81c 22:38 tech-lists =C4=91=C3=A3 vi=E1=BA=BFt: > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 09:43:16PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >Did you compare the different browsers using > > > >https://www.whatsmybrowser.org/ > >http://browserspy.dk/browser.php > >https://www.whatismybrowser.com/ > > I installed a firefox addon [1] to the desktop and configured it thusly t= o > change User-Agent string for * to the following value: > > Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) > Iridium/2019.04 > > and the problem persists... > -- > J. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 12:58:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531583A7A86 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binhtien1162@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF30K2d2qz4YCx for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:58:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binhtien1162@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id a14so12269770wra.5 for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:58:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200722214343.3d90cbe2@archlinux> <20200723153710.GF46914@bastion.zyxst.net> In-Reply-To: From: Nguyen Binh Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:58:28 +0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) To: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF30K2d2qz4YCx X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Y2FR1sWe; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of binhtien1162@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=binhtien1162@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.910]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.85)[-0.850]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.480]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_MIXED_CHARSET(0.62)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:58:42 -0000 Sorry, I sent the wrong email address V=C3=A0o CN, 26 thg 7, 2020 va=CC=80o lu=CC=81c 19:56 Nguyen Binh =C4=91=C3=A3 vi=E1=BA=BFt: > http://topandten.blogspot.com/search/label/How%20To > > V=C3=A0o Th 5, 23 thg 7, 2020 va=CC=80o lu=CC=81c 22:38 tech-lists > =C4=91=C3=A3 vi=E1=BA=BFt: > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 09:43:16PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> >Did you compare the different browsers using >> > >> >https://www.whatsmybrowser.org/ >> >http://browserspy.dk/browser.php >> >https://www.whatismybrowser.com/ >> >> I installed a firefox addon [1] to the desktop and configured it thusly = to >> change User-Agent string for * to the following value: >> >> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) >> Iridium/2019.04 >> >> and the problem persists... >> -- >> J. >> > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 13:04:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735D93A7D2D for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:04:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF36k3vRZz4Yf4 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:04:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id b18so5660216ilo.12 for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:04:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:04:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF36k3vRZz4Yf4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=DZ7w6ctk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.69 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.032]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.658]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:04:15 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:43 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > There is system wide performance loss due to pages having been > pushed out to swap and needing to be pulled in to be used. The more times > you push the memory over the edge like that the more random things get > pushed out to swap and the more random delays there will be as they get > pulled back in. This happens because some of the stuff that got pushed to > swap the first time round never comes back in (it isn't used often enough) > and so every time round more and more important stuff gets pushed out to > swap. > > Here is a variant of your experiment that should demonstrate it. > > 1: Reboot machine, measure performance > 2: Memory stress machine to until swapping reduces performance > 3: Kill memory stressing process > 4: Disable swap - which forces all pages back into RAM > 5: Enable swap > 6: Loop to 2 > Since stealing memory from a running process that counts on it to be functional will crash the process and odds are that process is something low level and critical to keeping X running the above variant is not practical to do and thus my current solution has the same effect -- reboot. But that being said there is nothing about firefox, libreoffice or just playing MP3's that should cause swapping on a machine with 24 GB of RAM! (Yes I run tomcat but that has only one small test webapp on it [debugging issues for a bigger one I support, the bigger one runs just fine on vm at a hosting company with 8 GB and 2 cores]) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 13:33:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98E73606A9 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:33:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binhtien1162@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF3mF0HcRz4Zp1 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:33:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binhtien1162@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id c80so11770463wme.0 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8lJH75eKSVagjWj/FCJjRcJ3YYRCmLZxbod+0i7Aqys=; b=dyl0xkD2aL0qkl1UYPPf2DYqJ47CmKgBsrrpfpxe3xl5sIMgWJHUMp4k2C176V5aHR fpxkAbIIujgYuQCSn8pnDUSOk0BEVMQtJJcTXEiZI6jSv4tSZCgGfcjkuaJOWzwC/Qt1 c5b+3ytTdbLtvwmdGkmZ7DptaeAt8Yo1l+rbFJlvBFfNJOQlKZEgqHBDbMkg49Tyf/lJ jPluHzN0r7t8xhbe7RuoDlarWcjRK3UfMP3JpeMn59pvcD++Og9Ug2GZDdNXqy3j0lm6 B6Xd1jMldRudLg3QCRmq0QcIfmurW5oZXC/Rzx8DgPJnFYB29d6cG+ncNvptN6hDvHfg om0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8lJH75eKSVagjWj/FCJjRcJ3YYRCmLZxbod+0i7Aqys=; b=KuresDU/fEQHgO06zUSGyyHaNfb7P/Ld63NkkF5KLI1PsMDmEglT+sXDrJXlRJNID6 7qmLfz7mwG7AcX0rhn/5PPfuWK3HQglM6kD/YZTpiC6HTWoTQ/MYO2QdKhi7HhFT7uAT xCkaBv1CGF66m0QA4NyFc6BiegBnxVyiEuiVeWMi0e2nD22t6W3Vxu1Q6GDof8durv+K Tm4wGuf3XHSKL+Qm0DmJwAsIE+EuBc1SJtIaZ3m0ODIm8TJ//JTTpCqQXVK+ixmS9a02 mBxL1Up8U6CWSF18+ouwAirfHkSKt+GXAdJv4akil5omYHGmSDkeHG7m0DrJ+HSAx5jE cAOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530+fBCi05Tv3+XtcojvNFkL0NoeobY3Hh+d/rdgdEKNlvTa2GyI sSl5WLjb0Iw50aBP1YzazQpRNZ5hXrSi/kIQof+Mj+S3VE4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQYX26MrK26Xhs5dmCgMrIWaULN8CMHvmQeZuyq4xcPH3aTH30ut9yztDt2SR7VU/14R0rvTNucxkx7yFomZE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:4183:: with SMTP id o125mr16439068wma.101.1595770394189; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420212018.7adfeb3713b143b243d83090@sohara.org> <20200420203102.GD2970@mithril.foucry.net> <0fdbc6f7-926b-fc63-709d-4caa0bd693da@hedeland.org> <20200421074229.GF2970@mithril.foucry.net> In-Reply-To: <20200421074229.GF2970@mithril.foucry.net> From: Nguyen Binh Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:33:02 +0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] To: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF3mF0HcRz4Zp1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dyl0xkD2; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of binhtien1162@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::32f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=binhtien1162@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.83)[-0.826]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.715]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:33:17 -0000 https://topandten.blogspot.com/ V=C3=A0o Th 3, 21 thg 4, 2020 va=CC=80o lu=CC=81c 14:42 Jacques Foucry < jacques+freebsd@foucry.net> =C4=91=C3=A3 vi=E1=BA=BFt: > Le mardi 21 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 08:59:25 (+0200), Per Hedeland =C3=A0 =C3=A9= crit: > > On 2020-04-20 22:31, Jacques Foucry wrote: > > > Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 21:20:18 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith =C3= =A0 =C3=A9crit: > > >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 > > >> Jacques Foucry wrote: > > >> > > >>> Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 20:58:45 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith = =C3=A0 =C3=A9crit: > > >>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 > > >>>> Jacques Foucry wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? > > >>>> > > >>>> These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. > > >>>> > > >>>> DEPRECATED=3D Old, uses EOLed python27 > > >>>> EXPIRATION_DATE=3D 2020-02-28 > > >>> > > >>> Hug& > > >>> > > >>> Don't find those lines on the Makefile in my port three: > > >>> Instaed, concerning python, I have those lines: > > >>> > > >>> USES=3D gnome python:3.5+ shebangfix > > >> > > >> looks like my ports tree needs an update :) > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > I made an update just befor compiling. :-) > > > > > >> > > >>> USE_GNOME=3D intltool pygobject3 vte3 > > >>> USE_PYTHON=3D autoplist distutils > > >>> > > >>> And it compile perfectly on my system > > >> > > >> Quarterly packages perhaps ? > > > > > > No, I use lastest: > > > > The port was un-deprecated only the day before you posted your > > message, see > > > https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/x11/terminator/Makefile?r1=3D532123= &r2=3D532122&pathrev=3D532123 > > - I would guess there's some delay before such changes take effect for > > the package bulding. > > Ok, thanks for take time to diggin=DA=AF into svn. > > Take care (all of you) > > -- > Jacques Foucry > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 13:41:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AD8360AEE for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:41:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF3y22nMgz4b8p for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:41:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id k18so10276012qtm.10 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:41:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=w4PJqeupTCjX1re7IgPmx31zh4+saXU27rfoscBUEuw=; b=bzlFtUMsA8xER4gqB5/QFoeyv9QpoWCLchucOKysVniA+est3cm9Mqs98HyKeHdzfn Lvx0P0J4km/gJJBwo2h1w4cqCJHsVgw4vtmFX2qsjcigcXcGHWoSAVATPHjqn1cTft0c QheU6CZECZwMssVoXWVFPoGI7vQPmwTE7V/sJ4MXFHkyL+KWs+CtmauShfF7cjR+jAiX z7BwqwapgUn5XFCJz8i7bhF86PECL9ZdOnL0i4IsfGCoQ2vxfd1BXG56w3qvVVySMl5Q Y28PQPsR+KZBh2qASWA4r97scFnx3iTo0eDIHX5wM8PFE+RxrSl/hiDEF1FNMmsfvbDT KHLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=w4PJqeupTCjX1re7IgPmx31zh4+saXU27rfoscBUEuw=; b=lILvdm29S56k+Hh3Vwp1qRPHqsY2udG6LC/oVQLseOX1FPkEp0+vD75RYd425/VhCK LuYLGfC42JaItMmsgQpVG66kGvkjBel2F6fJeBrFIoJGUOsJb/Zp65o3Of4Z+h3MUKqi 1oY0Zc5d0ProkSrDzYUJeFKoteLxbikFs3t1HZ4IhbN7oczAWPM+aEcWsZGBwKwnTdq2 2PcvBt2neze111lU8gPeiOGygz77IW01U8Qz9UGAxcuER2d2il0Z5DLx9qq84ahmIEgj JAI2+7OVyR15Jj5DNPSXw9jmiUAE/xcu9yTa7MFmRwhs9YhTR7yebzB7RKDSIEfqxZ0X P70A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533UkDFCioo4ySxc1MtVsO1QbaZ1EKHGYdy/+qwSU0CfQAgTSHFn qA9DUzmDsupG0phITAcvKNCwP2Ei X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwexEGnto5tdjoZLxew6cWGv/IfuWr2v7oEoLZj6SGlm3NbqClIIKifSrxwY8KML+U62GhKKw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6e9b:: with SMTP id c27mr17938033qtv.189.1595770905498; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-51-0.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.51.0]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 128sm13617731qkk.101.2020.07.26.06.41.44 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5F1D8817.9090501@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:41:43 -0400 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Polytropon CC: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: How to see shutdown log References: <5F1B8399.6000502@gmail.com> <20200725032502.5e0a272b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200725032502.5e0a272b.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF3y22nMgz4b8p X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=bzlFtUMs; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::831 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.76 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.75)[-0.755]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[65.25.51.0:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.011]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::831:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:41:47 -0000 Polytropon wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 20:58:01 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: >> When you boot the system a bunch of messages roll across the screen to >> fast to read. The dmesg -a command will show these to you to read at >> your own pace. When you issue the shutdown or halt command a bunch of >> different messages roll across the screen to fast to read. >> >> Is there a way view these messages after the system comes back up later? > > Yes, those are located to /var/log/messages, as long as > file system access is possible; the last kernel messages > therefore aren't being logged. I checked and what is logged to /var/log/messages on host shutdown is no were close to the messages I see fly past on the console terminal. This is real easy for people to test so give it a run. Thinking maybe something else is controlling what goes to the message file on shutdown. Have any ideas where I should look? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 13:55:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329CB360D2A for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:55:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005afa500.4c8e2893ba91b78f62396bdd5690dc27@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF4Fd58Ytz4bqm for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:55:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005afa500.4c8e2893ba91b78f62396bdd5690dc27@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595771718; x=1598363718; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; 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RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.29)[-1.293]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005afa500.4c8e2893ba91b78f62396bdd5690dc27@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005afa500.4c8e2893ba91b78f62396bdd5690dc27@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:55:18 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:04:02 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:43 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > > > Here is a variant of your experiment that should demonstrate it. > > > > 1: Reboot machine, measure performance > > 2: Memory stress machine to until swapping reduces performance > > 3: Kill memory stressing process > > 4: Disable swap - which forces all pages back into RAM > > 5: Enable swap > > 6: Loop to 2 > > > > Since stealing memory from a running process that counts on it to be > functional will crash the process and odds are that process is something > low level and critical to keeping X running the above variant is not > practical to do and thus my current solution has the same effect -- > reboot. It is very practical and it is the way I normally recover a system from a memory usage spike, it works far better than just leaving it alone. Nothing in that steals memory from running processes. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 13:57:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A19F360E53 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF4Jh403nz4bnf for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:57:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF4Jh403nz4bnf X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PEwOE3J/; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; 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charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:57:57 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 9:55 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:04:02 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:43 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > > wrote: > > > > > Here is a variant of your experiment that should demonstrate > it. > > > > > > 1: Reboot machine, measure performance > > > 2: Memory stress machine to until swapping reduces performance > > > 3: Kill memory stressing process > > > 4: Disable swap - which forces all pages back into RAM > > > 5: Enable swap > > > 6: Loop to 2 > > > > > > > Since stealing memory from a running process that counts on it to be > > functional will crash the process and odds are that process is something > > low level and critical to keeping X running the above variant is not > > practical to do and thus my current solution has the same effect -- > > reboot. > > It is very practical and it is the way I normally recover a system > from a memory usage spike, it works far better than just leaving it alone. > Nothing in that steals memory from running processes. > Unless there is just not enough RAM to allow all the pages to be recovered which as far I can tell is the problem. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays > C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun > The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see > You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 13:59:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E70360D54 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:59:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF4LZ5MQRz4cRj for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:59:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id a12so14296742ion.13 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:59:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:59:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:59:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF4LZ5MQRz4cRj X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Yz90WfMM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.004]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.033]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.825]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 13:59:35 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 9:57 AM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 9:55 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > >> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:04:02 -0400 >> Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> >> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:43 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Here is a variant of your experiment that should demonstrate >> it. >> > > >> > > 1: Reboot machine, measure performance >> > > 2: Memory stress machine to until swapping reduces performance >> > > 3: Kill memory stressing process >> > > 4: Disable swap - which forces all pages back into RAM >> > > 5: Enable swap >> > > 6: Loop to 2 >> > > >> > >> > Since stealing memory from a running process that counts on it to be >> > functional will crash the process and odds are that process is something >> > low level and critical to keeping X running the above variant is not >> > practical to do and thus my current solution has the same effect -- >> > reboot. >> >> It is very practical and it is the way I normally recover a system >> from a memory usage spike, it works far better than just leaving it alone. >> Nothing in that steals memory from running processes. >> > > Unless there is just not enough RAM to allow all the pages to be recovered > which as far I can tell is the problem. > Just tried: sudo swapoff -a sudo swapon -a Result: Firefox froze up -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 14:02:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429AD36125B for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:02:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005aff3bb.c5b0569a82f548f00f0088ee6ed13bb1@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF4PM5bkjz4cFQ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005aff3bb.c5b0569a82f548f00f0088ee6ed13bb1@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595772120; x=1598364120; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=+VEfJhAfIQStK1vmkvYDGxTa8qEICirxu2y3uOO4e1w=; b=tmLrweoS0UL+7vChrYKn9GpW/5PcBNmo6ASBtjScPtJ/hvfHuOXBsebD5aP7mLzsVHcOOTpGbHjXdMmCOqg7VS3T628j+km4uWQZ58BDd1jHDP20DH0jWqf/PEO4vhYRA8ZJKVEJSHNkCqEc6I30LsQdy5oRcqUnjKRlPfRnJzs= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDVhZmYzYmIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:01:58 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:01:57 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzhDw-0007sI-5I; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:01:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:01:55 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726150155.31dd51ce71666d752b756371@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF4PM5bkjz4cFQ X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=tmLrweoS; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005aff3bb.c5b0569a82f548f00f0088ee6ed13bb1@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005aff3bb.c5b0569a82f548f00f0088ee6ed13bb1@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.29)[-1.293]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005aff3bb.c5b0569a82f548f00f0088ee6ed13bb1@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005aff3bb.c5b0569a82f548f00f0088ee6ed13bb1@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:02:00 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:57:44 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 9:55 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:04:02 -0400 > > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:43 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Here is a variant of your experiment that should demonstrate > > it. > > > > > > > > 1: Reboot machine, measure performance > > > > 2: Memory stress machine to until swapping reduces performance > > > > 3: Kill memory stressing process > > > > 4: Disable swap - which forces all pages back into RAM > > > > 5: Enable swap > > > > 6: Loop to 2 > > > > > > > > > > Since stealing memory from a running process that counts on it to be > > > functional will crash the process and odds are that process is > > > something low level and critical to keeping X running the above > > > variant is not practical to do and thus my current solution has the > > > same effect -- reboot. > > > > It is very practical and it is the way I normally recover a > > system from a memory usage spike, it works far better than just leaving > > it alone. Nothing in that steals memory from running processes. > > > > Unless there is just not enough RAM to allow all the pages to be recovered > which as far I can tell is the problem. If there is not enough RAM for the workload you are imposing then that is your problem, but 24GB should be plenty for the workload you describe absent a runaway. No system should be run at a level that requires swap. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 14:08:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D1536146C for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:08:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b1e5b8.51c3d7bf093168a71fb33557d17d45a8@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF4Y617v2z4cwp for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b1e5b8.51c3d7bf093168a71fb33557d17d45a8@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595772522; x=1598364522; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=hbYaayu3u6JTKddOOb0zzZcsErxzS5cakKLx3Nc8z18=; b=WXpNo4093UgaV6Me8BBWPNbSa4kjEyzC0ENBbVgVwMLQJ55gd5lJfL2C60VLWnBaZGCx3UbP1XK2gredmmOdTyc2ypu1RIPdaPGHbfugUDIfyrrmtqg33lMgnH5/9mjEBmr4dhXpxfb7uNNC2N/vrBSt7hwN4Oa8Y/E7MjQUewE= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDViMWU1YjguZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:08:32 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:08:31 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzhKH-0007w8-LO; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:08:29 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:08:29 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726150829.ffab5d32002ec945f101197f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF4Y617v2z4cwp X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=WXpNo409; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005b1e5b8.51c3d7bf093168a71fb33557d17d45a8@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005b1e5b8.51c3d7bf093168a71fb33557d17d45a8@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.96 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.27)[-1.274]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b1e5b8.51c3d7bf093168a71fb33557d17d45a8@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b1e5b8.51c3d7bf093168a71fb33557d17d45a8@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:08:42 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:59:22 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Just tried: > > sudo swapoff -a If that workd you have enough RAM. > sudo swapon -a > > Result: Firefox froze up Firefox is demanding memory, scads of it. There's your problem. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 14:18:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F215361AB4 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x144.google.com (mail-il1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF4mb6LWLz4dcr for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:18:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> <20200726150829.ffab5d32002ec945f101197f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200726150829.ffab5d32002ec945f101197f@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:18:27 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF4mb6LWLz4dcr X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Ru0RXFgI; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.87 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.004]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.032]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::144:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.835]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:18:40 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 10:08 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:59:22 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > Just tried: > > > > sudo swapoff -a > > If that workd you have enough RAM. > > > sudo swapon -a > > > > Result: Firefox froze up > > Firefox is demanding memory, scads of it. There's your problem. > Just tried it again on the other offending programs (libreoffice after a start of a copy/paste operation) and audio/deadbeef playing a 3 minute long mp3 and the same result (each program froze and/or core dumped). So we come back to the original issue which is the only thing all the programs have in common is they use 3rd party xorg libraries (gtk for example) and that's their only commonality beyond all being developed on linux and being GUI based. Thus my original conclusion there is something very screwy about the interface between FreeBSD and some aspects of X that is under the hood to most users and needed for common apps. > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays > C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun > The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see > You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 14:56:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EE8362AB7 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:56:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b23caa.0647d78f145f8c4128edc182131e6c8a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF5bx4gXWz3RNv for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:56:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b23caa.0647d78f145f8c4128edc182131e6c8a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595775374; x=1598367374; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Ntfg+wGS1FPQRuJ8ZvtGlJsgwY7tmwhEXRZGLuLz4T8=; b=S3VwkTvlX7M1o1eRL/opQa6SUJiKApttqSt0fsE8AmkGevIFV41k8JCnK3nv1FWgu3vWohvWlSryAhNTwlFk+1Q1MrxJZkZfpOdiNu3koebm58LtTe+/NAdh5K4enHGc79uweNJjq5d8EXwe3zsJbXZ5jFkcGNj61A+S8CVPjuQ= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDViMjNjYWEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:56:07 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:56:06 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzi4L-00082x-0q; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:56:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:56:04 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726155604.b09314e861eeafbd61d0afd7@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726074655.b0036a0f90508156205376f9@sohara.org> <20200726134331.5c960f7f93d76d2249bd769c@sohara.org> <20200726145511.558d53ab7958c3c489b09a17@sohara.org> <20200726150829.ffab5d32002ec945f101197f@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF5bx4gXWz3RNv X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=S3VwkTvl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005b23caa.0647d78f145f8c4128edc182131e6c8a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005b23caa.0647d78f145f8c4128edc182131e6c8a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.10)[-1.101]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b23caa.0647d78f145f8c4128edc182131e6c8a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b23caa.0647d78f145f8c4128edc182131e6c8a@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:56:14 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:18:27 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Just tried it again on the other offending programs (libreoffice after a > start of a copy/paste operation) and audio/deadbeef playing a 3 minute > long mp3 and the same result (each program froze and/or core dumped). That sounds like a GTK issue (or GTK port issue), they're all GTK applications. I've never had Firefox or LibreOffice smash even an 8GB system into the ground but I don't use the latter much and I don't play HTML5 games on the former. I have seen sites which cause Firefox to steadily consume ever increasing amounts of memory, closing the tab usually clears things up, sometimes closing the tab and restarting Firefox. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 15:18:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D6F362CF8 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:18:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF65n3wMHz3SFZ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:18:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=ReaC3zgjcEYIp0qIFZJ8j9e9xKyx7IcqUfDHth1hfy8=; b=ka3GF0LBBNH8hncn2IqfUIVfIX NVWcmoArws1bwBUEbKWSG5rS2uqpcimw+GC2aRIRb90ia7+vKWvAryNvDKeWWDg30rFE6S6SQKZ2S KIDPy1tHJRvA0YT0Zehq8gSTfft+nlS5YTySz/YsCpiM2sMhnvj8sZP477GG90zLiayQ=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jziQ7-0009Ni-Tv for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:18:35 +0700 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:18:35 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF65n3wMHz3SFZ X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=ka3GF0LB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.574]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:18:38 -0000 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >=20 > > FreeBSD freezes, then kills some innocent random processes like > > local_unbound, then it may slowly recover. Sometimes it guesses > > correctly and kills the offender (firefox most often). >=20 > What else would you have it do ? Kill the largest process ? Kill > the last process to call malloc ? There is no good response to OOM. The OS > has no way to know which processes you care about most. AFAIK the Linux OOM killer uses multiple weighted criteria to decide which process to kill. Each process has an oom_score showing its eligibility to be killed. So at least Linux attemps intelligent killing. What about FreeBSD? --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJfHZ7LAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0Ff0IAJ1/CtC8LeWyBnsTao0i+YcD adAKSs1/WbqJ/hW/vEgNPHhbfENuFEqB2FoKeE4DTboqTo2xFBeRoJXqyobOF8wA THKjzEWbCSiKAyO+nn19LwixiwuOx8LDrI/8R2SJZKHujmbC503Sm1cDR7wvjqp2 TTLSjH4gSbOwmv41QIYhn8EVERKd6dy0LYe0J1mBfrfi4ND8uGQ81d0XhVcgYhe7 4VyUu+2KWsfg7XAPo9CnDBNf9+tlMnsZjqSsZHPm9fnImve2ggbdku0sYuMJHodj gsDj6KpGymDpwx19VM9qI8cV/V6qaKiN1vny5167+C8AoPhrzghPnOSYf019WcU= =cWP+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 15:38:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64863363818 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:38:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF6Xs1rNGz3Syq for ; 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Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:38:24 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF6Xs1rNGz3Syq X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=NORICJO3; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.70 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.032]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.67)[-0.668]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:38:38 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:18 AM Victor Sudakov wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD freezes, then kills some innocent random processes like > > > local_unbound, then it may slowly recover. Sometimes it guesses > > > correctly and kills the offender (firefox most often). > > > > What else would you have it do ? Kill the largest process ? Kill > > the last process to call malloc ? There is no good response to OOM. The > OS > > has no way to know which processes you care about most. > > AFAIK the Linux OOM killer uses multiple weighted criteria to decide > which process to kill. Each process has an oom_score showing its > eligibility to be killed. > > So at least Linux attemps intelligent killing. What about FreeBSD? > Every time a piece of software and/or algorithm attempts to be "intelligent" the only thing it succeeds in doing is being "too smart for its own good" (there will always be exceptions and odds are the first/normal real world use of it will be just such an exception, but the algorithm thinks it knows best and does the wrong thing). Thus using the simplest measure (like last reference or cpu usage is a good measure [assuming it is not using the cpu due to I/O waiting]) is likely the best and that's what FreeBSD does. Note except for the case of bugs (like the one being discussed in the other subthread) it is very unlikely that you will ever encounter OOM on a real machine these days and if you have an app that might cause an OOM due to its nature then that program almost always has its own swap like feature that it manages on its own. Good example is vi and large files, vi does not keep the whole file in memory, but only window on the current cursor position. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 15:39:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC54D36399C for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:39:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF6Yn5hhfz3TKj for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.216]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63BC84E674 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF6Yn5hhfz3TKj X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.30 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.142.216:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.13)[0.132]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.381]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.45)[0.447]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:39:26 -0000 On 7/26/20 10:18 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>> FreeBSD freezes, then kills some innocent random processes like >>> local_unbound, then it may slowly recover. Sometimes it guesses >>> correctly and kills the offender (firefox most often). >> >> What else would you have it do ? Kill the largest process ? Kill >> the last process to call malloc ? There is no good response to OOM. The OS >> has no way to know which processes you care about most. > I agree, Steve. Killing a process is a bad thing always. > AFAIK the Linux OOM killer uses multiple weighted criteria to decide > which process to kill. Each process has an oom_score showing its > eligibility to be killed. > My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes to recover maximum amount of resources. Another speculative way to say it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating more RAM is first candidate. > So at least Linux attemps intelligent killing. What about FreeBSD? > Yes, but still I have to admit: killing a process is a bad thing. But under some circumstances it is better than system unresponsive for long time. In first case you can investigate logs of what process was killed etc. In second case if you had to press power button... That said, I never had any of my FreeBSD machines unresponsive. And that refers to a bunch of servers with dozens of jails, my workstation, my laptop. That probably is why I am so ignorant about Out Of Memory situation handling by FreeBSD. Never happened to me. I must confess, these are decently large RAM machines. No swap on servers and workstation. Swap of the same size as RAM (16GB) on laptop. And I still do not consider myself lucky. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 15:52:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173DA363F4A for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b56bde.83f0eab4f44729bd682077fc194a137c@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF6rh2sDpz3V0H for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:52:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b56bde.83f0eab4f44729bd682077fc194a137c@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595778740; x=1598370740; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=H/+pOp9Nm3lB8lQo66OHFpnj/Hq+uPvQ4wMS52mzb7M=; b=OUG7vLfUpNEs5havuV8BT5jxUxSOr/F8NJdvPJmh+3ZHpJRAVVnHdeD/d1rlnJeHrVH34G6AfQW0LyH9BZaKBaGum6JdlymOboUJhRqOhtfWGo5Wb4sgrDm8AbPC79DVP82xumpSp2PbDfCPzWXWA29JmD+EaqkW97cX5jvDkQI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDViNTZiZGUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:52:13 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:52:13 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jziwe-0008EN-76 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:52:12 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:52:12 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF6rh2sDpz3V0H X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=OUG7vLfU; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005b56bde.83f0eab4f44729bd682077fc194a137c@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005b56bde.83f0eab4f44729bd682077fc194a137c@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.39 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.035]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.955]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.70)[-0.695]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b56bde.83f0eab4f44729bd682077fc194a137c@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b56bde.83f0eab4f44729bd682077fc194a137c@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:52:21 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 Valeri Galtsev wrote: > My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my > understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes > to recover maximum amount of resources. Not always the right thing to do though. > Another speculative way to say > it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating > more RAM is first candidate. What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that has a run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters running on the system. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 15:56:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F56D3640CC for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:56:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF6xH3S0Vz3V8P for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [IPv6:2607:fb90:17c7:6843:7c63:725d:be86:85b5] (unknown [172.58.142.206]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7AE94E639 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:56:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:56:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF6xH3S0Vz3V8P X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.11 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.142.206:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.371]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.284]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.44)[0.440]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:56:20 -0000 On 7/26/20 10:52 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 > Valeri Galtsev wrote: > >> My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my >> understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes >> to recover maximum amount of resources. > > Not always the right thing to do though. > >> Another speculative way to say >> it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating >> more RAM is first candidate. > > What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that has a > run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters running > on the system. > And yes, I agreed with your sentiments (or judgement): killing a process is a bad thing always. Agreed before writing any of my comments. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 16:01:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5B6364856 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:01:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF73f3s3Zz3VLm for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.216]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EEAC94E677 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:01:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:01:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF73f3s3Zz3VLm X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.142.216:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.370]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.36)[-0.356]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.45)[0.446]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:01:51 -0000 On 7/26/20 10:56 AM, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 7/26/20 10:52 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 >> Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >>> My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my >>> understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes >>> to recover maximum amount of resources. >> >>     Not always the right thing to do though. >> >>> Another speculative way to say >>> it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating >>> more RAM is first candidate. >> >>     What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that has a >> run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters running >> on the system. >> > > And yes, I agreed with your sentiments (or judgement): killing a process > is a bad thing always. Agreed before writing any of my comments. > Even though that heavy weight program that runs for multiple days must have been saving checkpoints which you can restart it from, so you only loose time from last checkpoint, I still agree with you: killing anything is a bad thing to do. Valeri > Valeri > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 16:03:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E7B3649BB for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:03:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF75K1CrRz3VvR for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:03:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id l17so14516975iok.7 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:03:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ks8RliZC1sKgJn1QCA/MOliljNrapJcD/swdJFBBpyY=; b=J9ezP9e6hVLlNJHYPORvSRd/59rQxEBSpwxnoIHVYhwvGvNl4qQE9l5tPriqouprEc dAwQVJLEt7BDg8lfpN3RwGf6em8aV96zw6TRgt/wOwi0BqeeXmXDTa807bFGIzsWPaKx HuEsANkI8aTidmSOZac2neuY/x/yz4DEsplJuaPuxQmfVmeRYAsjaDwSt6nvbwyyhoju Ilx8V9oEXPh43MpL9Tz2c44CFlMPw7S3Y0eUsbEvuRACDX8uj6PK4bRATxjwUVGXhLi/ jDrwMsvi3hHHFr0+aOplC/vd3eO6jZC1gIzKjFOrmDYo14jJGwY4dwUqDx+XePS0pW/v HyMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ks8RliZC1sKgJn1QCA/MOliljNrapJcD/swdJFBBpyY=; b=EyWrJ9qsZwiXks8ZmyvaYgcQ5KgXI4KPkxdKVhy1VUXKRoFcGDK31SiFu9thXhf+lL yY+755ZV5paoNZk1J03jp6Hq7zmk7WNUTF/z9u02AQqqZCqlJB4Bt2cXRH1cJUdfx0gv Lo4V05i+WBpiZF3vy/8tonrwF6k6iNHlLKKdUcAtdkwXOgE0JDro9btSzGdRTnIdWudm 1JECxAQUOuYQbznAEqM7znKSDiZuoCLsMHnCb78jdQu6lSfwq0XNUmMRHAtCSTt+UBpw C1l+ikmZ55Jk1MpSKsn5ZgsATLblLLFFy9Jo8q5r2mMGKmbswrd5wXuFJzmUMrz3Jazu C1Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WIC0lcsM0B40ZglLfwYxDh03ggyBPNn6HD5gxWAu8touxYVYI nLTedXE6chkwAQYkSIFGeWazvm0jEGrsT9/pUhTM9Ew+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy/bS+SkqfplStLsXGs7VauerW+rrk6vMm1MTbmB0yhkgtIVuASCF37fJw67fjgWLnqBmrFVuyhXk2A0O8Yq0M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2549:: with SMTP id j9mr19320980ioe.89.1595779396052; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:03:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:03:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF75K1CrRz3VvR X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=J9ezP9e6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.57 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.032]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.533]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:03:18 -0000 On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:56 AM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 7/26/20 10:52 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 > > Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > >> My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my > >> understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes > >> to recover maximum amount of resources. > > > > Not always the right thing to do though. > > > >> Another speculative way to say > >> it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating > >> more RAM is first candidate. > > > > What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that has a > > run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters running > > on the system. > > > > And yes, I agreed with your sentiments (or judgement): killing a process > is a bad thing always. Agreed before writing any of my comments. > Then if you're out space why are you suggesting a potentially O(n!)-space solution? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 16:28:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2832364CE3 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:28:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF7f54nVzz3WNj for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:28:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: 32 bit supports Message-Id: <44715CFE-B2C9-434A-ABAC-48C83919041D@kreme.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:28:10 -0600 To: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3649) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF7f54nVzz3WNj X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.97 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.889]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.69)[-0.690]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:28:14 -0000 Is there a roadmap for continuing support of 32 bit FreeBSD? -- And I'm nor insane, my mother had me tested. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 17:15:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB9A366704 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:15:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic309-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic309-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF8hF64VKz3Z91 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:15:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 2jU5uPoVM1k271h8BteYDUh_.YhEB1w4FvBqX.mrAOzpTZqpTSYU9ugQV_ECNDA dR0VNaMIy9i6thSD9eojsyeGf3d1iWcBc8LXNSK2G2C.W3VMdTfTOQEIX957xpmr34Ha3zU6O5Iy ETblJ7Kq7tRO9dkdaeMjDOdYlFUyM8W.yl_06kgO4IRWsmX0mOd6Es0U1XfnLG_7pfCa4cmtBXgi 9aaJTwok8x_8_C3t7Q1toTMJ1LjJERaLPbUYBy1aeKVis6FQLhHQ2mCLcEMdB_AWCAD0iq_GgC_k nvKnyFCAuaYRAjsXr9Gzov8VpOmAS7ToDqtnuy2TUcJhPRNU6fiUql6WfVQ7E87u97h8PiDpuDAW DxmCmBwxR8k7984ZcKGfaPzHZV_EPCpiZO6j093q2Mj1zsmUXpUH96WXerrF0s4RP4qURIganTBt bY7x0aJplCyHCfbapLstyXIo0CH2jO7WJIZEKLrFJjk6e52Mszvuh.bwZyDyOLV7OAI0gBG1oDrd InhFYK.YYX0WKXNRbTowFBioiMVMVwZiV0Gc1jD1LcHes5G9sg3inRh2VCMpumRQYAOckb0YwF.k 5tpU9kw.Cfkw_r_OTWUwE9KAsvR6qGf69dqdIXxqXlEVZ18XR.Is6yRvGs7iEUWTbjapxFyCq8gr 7FbUf7ScuVsuy88vd7WuoyjyobxFxABB20DV5ieD72XofbyLbEJvAvehjGPEXu3LqcB6bsEu7j2o U_lXqjTYhnUX3o6wVn8RRSPGx_.0csVDRnjBJn3hS4bEbjpu4D8qs6Hw7WTuxv5I8bqz4EfdZLus 4r0nM8fW0h_Xb0qsre.NZW5.0b62vK8AAyyB2MAZi.j_KOiG3FJJ57y8QAXvFmtjz1Ih..KvfDLe ngaLtwBWQ7YU0h0WxVMD9BzkszOMHp58sBK9aa_Z7HhDnfa5F_j74s94KzzoeNwePUv728AvF3Nw O4hajaXyK6c021V0NT_rW.s1Wpo1TmqPSGgYyVZ6hQAnn81CnGCG7qcMhwQSEBsnRbv95XKn7VDp JURcdBxxjdb1I5cbI7EZ5GutSRRA6Y5ZZul6OFLU5zmNcVUhZ8f315mtDtV.KLJQZhNHWZtcpIWE mTxTJTQOgtz9r6xe1nsY3xNPcf1KYwuMV95I24tzSfnq6EsQCeJVPH5AFlQS7qY0CAhnFobR0ULd Oyx98325n3pZ6F3XARfrVwRLufTZp63O9PQhourbWLi9W_CN5krmLiIQyMsXM02rT4kpz9Q4PUWP 812NYXNKBC5MOnWbsCHOYNLsOA3i_E3McPKwhmMTQBL86D1M5Op8KMGZFC8dIBg2iFN4IN4bvXIj CSpJTs0hryvKqhJANZgfmfcRnLhWj0.uL_1nUM7qjrr5.LiNUMDGcmFVI9ZoezJsBS6Rx64ooFDN 9.7GlRGsGjnwnWlI- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:15:07 +0000 Received: by smtp401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b0b7461374b8d18f5ea27d6bb6912742; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:15:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f49.google.com with SMTP id k71so7887366pje.0 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531kc8KriLeao1HuVqxTviJH/3CTZeXnWSZjeG7diEN4AUccJnp0 8cMkTdP/Yl4G7fIbBe9veYCZB0AgEvrJTAMNaEc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwUEjk5Sp61+WFahgW8c7fHbeCY6pElQEeswF/ZqppKFGNODNGkxlUBwyNAH2I8Mb7Zh8WLPorroH8juTm00aY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7d90:: with SMTP id a16mr15409751plm.226.1595783701119; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:15:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5F1B8399.6000502@gmail.com> <20200725032502.5e0a272b.freebsd@edvax.de> <5F1D8817.9090501@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5F1D8817.9090501@gmail.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:14:44 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: How to see shutdown log To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16271 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BF8hF64VKz3Z91 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.82 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.184.147:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.11)[-1.112]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.184.147:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:15:10 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 at 14:41, Ernie Luzar wrote: > > Polytropon wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 20:58:01 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: > >> When you boot the system a bunch of messages roll across the screen to > >> fast to read. The dmesg -a command will show these to you to read at > >> your own pace. When you issue the shutdown or halt command a bunch of > >> different messages roll across the screen to fast to read. > >> > >> Is there a way view these messages after the system comes back up later? > > > > Yes, those are located to /var/log/messages, as long as > > file system access is possible; the last kernel messages > > therefore aren't being logged. > > > I checked and what is logged to /var/log/messages on host shutdown is no > were close to the messages I see fly past on the console terminal. > > This is real easy for people to test so give it a run. > > Thinking maybe something else is controlling what goes to the message > file on shutdown. Have any ideas where I should look? Not everything that you see on the console is logged to /var/log/messages, check your /etc/syslog.conf. I have this: *.err;kern.warning;auth.notice;mail.crit /dev/console *.notice;authpriv.none;kern.debug;lpr.info;mail.crit;news.err /var/log/messages But I can still see some shutdown messages in /var/log/messages: Jul 23 21:46:30 FreeBSD shutdown[2319]: power-down by oc: Jul 23 21:46:30 FreeBSD kernel: . Jul 23 21:46:30 FreeBSD ntpd[687]: ntpd exiting on signal 15 (Terminated) Jul 23 21:46:30 FreeBSD kernel: . Jul 23 21:46:30 FreeBSD syslogd: last message repeated 1 times Jul 23 21:46:31 FreeBSD syslogd: exiting on signal 15 -- Ottavio Caruso A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 20:09:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EBF369DB2 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:09:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFDYd3Cxgz41XJ for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:09:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.224.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MQeI4-1kCO7x0IP0-00Nllw; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:09:31 +0200 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:09:28 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: tbz file from pkg Message-Id: <20200726220928.290a8ef4.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <464D3ED6-6A05-495C-BC21-2C5C3277F2A1@kreme.com> References: <20200725203801.9a4965b8.freebsd@edvax.de> <7ED1C2F2-B3E7-463B-95DB-C58CF6008CA3@kreme.com> <464D3ED6-6A05-495C-BC21-2C5C3277F2A1@kreme.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:k7hBWWy7AAgs0OWXf0np6e6EOcPW8f3m7C+5oEtqbtj7d/+Dcfn ALSkd1zBgaJHa2F1BIXTTr+gTajIvmPkGnE6zLktDoNQY29hOWzijz6fujtjC3Q/SN8V0Yk mkIibYCK0EM2q3kCm00z5ABZ3YOcCUtFXMklfUiosTn2CIAqsMR6PvOSp50wiiHPdyOjNsZ aSCRORB3MIA9Re+cELPyQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jVO1SQRTZNo=:6KvH1w8G88MeiSP4Fa50ge 6LDs7iydT4Fw+StlaBBMd/cokwKdRigdxisifG6pwYIhgh79QKaswVtMksJzLDjjYPlcUgUcI oWhzYdGlAigqR/HR4wwbSgWYsd6u5KLyK1eRFngvlQZdwbCh0yB9NnlH2QQOW+EvHOAyGh+6D IQsyFUDX+F1NOugORfZtZ4zsk/ycud1bErM3zSmNv8PvKgGWk+PIU44WBXohZinreUrvpwwxD bL0yMuTSr6nIZ5XajpLSX4vmtikpCmnL6fL0C/ZgwWUpOEb6wF0MRWsn9+X7r8ZM6DqGuCrAm oNcqgsy0OIVIjwjYcFlXWDOo7LDogifL+NkjxryQzXQqXz/U/iz5pzY+iXtEG6vs/b4deO+L4 ZX/7pnpLkJZqGoNufO15eVBYuUJk+w588ixZc0AET0Y9wU0fYctz6UxJ6+c62frxRrP8lQT46 3+nRzo6tVUSsTN44RYkJMfMxVZiIO4HXoDDupywROitsIYxxRjZT9DujZztbzealppc3kIHDJ JmoT1mYmEzwrIrHizqj50wzkiA4/9BeoRxGQr+IsplH9W6iYffTZNBpqtSJ9Oc5TjYSupMGhA 5Rxn/MZDgVdAh13FGqc0o0T7nBWHzTIjoRdhheCJyhDS3b4tQDqExLH7iFNk8OZ5qq0tQRowv NJc1NS5jl4JjlEu4JPeomp7f+IPQWtVTf7fc+CNUvNdqCrF8BPeKnuBB+4upIlPidfJo4mnFA +rrXYxanwfzX/d2rjzdmPe12OBRX7/C+uI4QBzXV2oU/A2x4loZ/snooqzjBDMTq1gu9qe35r yrNRufg/wPgzdtX3Mw4AImC1epc0U8WibuzDBRou7+pX4VBUhBOSjxGWhaQlGa3YBsRYEw8 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFDYd3Cxgz41XJ X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.35 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.37)[-0.367]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.224.215:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.21)[-0.212]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.526]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:09:42 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 06:33:35 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > On 26 Jul 2020, at 06:32, @lbutlr wrote: > > > > for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2< $(file%.tar}.tbz; done > > Stepping away from the computer to go drink a pot of coffee. > > for file in **/.txz; do unxr $file; bzip2 $(file%.tar}.tbz; done ^^^^^^^ ^ Huh? Too much copypasta? :-) That would not work as expected, because **/.txz will be an empty list, and the input file argument for bzip2 is does not exist. If the directory portions with $file will be handled correctly, you decompress bla.tbz to bla.tar; if you then compress bla.tar, bzip2 will substitute .tar for... or does it append... no, I don't know, but I'm almost sure it will create bla.tar.bz2. So it's probably better to be explicit than to assume something and use "name construction" to get what you want. Maybe something like this: for file in */*.txz; do unxz -c $file | bzip2 $(file%.txz}.tbz; done With this approach, you avoid creating temporary files. NB: Constructred from memory, not from experiment. We all should drink more coffee. The emperor will be pleased. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 20:18:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2047C36A628 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:18:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFDls3BqSz42Nb for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:18:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.224.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MYe6H-1kLyp31rJD-00VglS; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:18:30 +0200 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:18:30 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ernie Luzar Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: How to see shutdown log Message-Id: <20200726221830.f26e018f.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <5F1D8817.9090501@gmail.com> References: <5F1B8399.6000502@gmail.com> <20200725032502.5e0a272b.freebsd@edvax.de> <5F1D8817.9090501@gmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:adauFskOjMogMtevhxzozUImqW/lftmFGbOziUthBEVXgrR+Kf9 rLi5+iVu01kXKw5sgM9GjcZZouPsTjQznSezD2HDLje38W1RJZ4CLM9CoBYXqcEU8W5XIuq m8Ek4HPvSWeFPqJVLG5IiAQPKOycXUKZ1YuJCJtjaU3U7mssT/SkCcOVG2gTKA3HXcD4pOh 9xwCZaUtQFWsxEqWBmhOg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:UIB9DNAJ7gQ=:qpFVM6YlfIGKSaoEMrlPSX EUKlVTlH9nxc4yYLaZy0nRIgl1/etzmdwnyWYDKnjy8Fr9C/t9FOdpjZOzICL+RSHYMTK1DF7 UlGpSMliUkftVM6yfCeKYNr6zSDCeZpxfArSTXLvKbjkq6d+plRN1FcpyQD+gmJmOCu/tFcgU Gkjb0zki/JzKzXLVakqnnWnZnSTRLKS+CakGl4YCvtMCw4/rI8aRxN8zII7tJzpTPQ8HlwFek CXUwF+xqbZGGgcw1afgYQExgOZDBJVvJYLbSzBlVTIWJcYaK4r7D3W/Kf2n48BOEVStfGZWGh uWjj9ngsBFNzmrdkbaTbzwVMEJ5EB0D3AjAhQFQdos6Lju0OvP37xGLXtHCkQsKxhoaLfQ25c U6q3fR1jXgxxg9EGr0Z5qp3R8jUDWy/AxMMD7d4rQyqHQzdYkA2kXhdrzuLb95rdyIy1T4FOD ou0ym7OePlHsVyP8PEji27lBNVeV8o6RVN+UwjIvoRZdxHlaWVsOhzPKOJKK/fzq6lnFgLbrD HCAhDQ+bto6sgBTW9Ye8X/x8mlRqeu+QkkEGeCm4g9iKI99P8AUOmiQacXOCAOnnRCQArTupF QMsk8tIwUx97s2skpKRRCjlc+O1nHMcL+dE+PmIVE3czZB6xdKlBox0q5xz6krV3JopgGZRSU 2FluJ/8QQ8+h8kz90sVC+p3pbg+uEYTUFwpuvjxNMGV3nw7+m14gce4bgkQIc3EN/c2E7xyED snkR8Ju286juje/PBggMsk0x0k99rWJIuMpflckmgVdjUqyZwDj4vpYYpPfsUaZSPnHlEtgLw oSTufv/eaqQMbzTNRq0fxKg8+fYdA/1ne5H6LI6Z6L3oqxiY0f8SWkyRgLgg15ncsqZfPId X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFDls3BqSz42Nb X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.28 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.224.215:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.13)[0.129]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.02)[0.022]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.73)[0.731]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:18:35 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:41:43 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: > Polytropon wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 20:58:01 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: > >> When you boot the system a bunch of messages roll across the screen to > >> fast to read. The dmesg -a command will show these to you to read at > >> your own pace. When you issue the shutdown or halt command a bunch of > >> different messages roll across the screen to fast to read. > >> > >> Is there a way view these messages after the system comes back up later? > > > > Yes, those are located to /var/log/messages, as long as > > file system access is possible; the last kernel messages > > therefore aren't being logged. > > > I checked and what is logged to /var/log/messages on host shutdown is no > were close to the messages I see fly past on the console terminal. The problem probably is that at a certain point, messages will only be written to terminal and to memory buffer, but not to a file because no file access is possible anymore (kernel still runs, but disks have been unmounted, so no VFS access can be done anymore). Messages in the RAM will not survive a reboot. However, those created at system startup are copied to the log file as soon as it becomes accessible. > This is real easy for people to test so give it a run. Sure. There is a possibility that might work, even though I have not tested it: You could "hijack" the kernel printing routine (the one that emits the messages) and have it copy characters to a line printer, a virtual one or a real one, and then you could see those messages. It would maybe also be possible to read the system console's file /dev/console and copy everything that is written to it to /dev/lpt0. > Thinking maybe something else is controlling what goes to the message > file on shutdown. Have any ideas where I should look? Basically, /var/log/messages contains all messages created with the system logging mechanism. When programs decide to emit messages by a simple printf() to whatever is their controlling terminal, those won't be logged. To get those messages, checking the console buffer (rather than the system message buffer) is probably a better way to do. Again, note that file access is made impossible at a certain stage during system shutdown that is usually followed by other stages that also can print messages. If you really want to get those messages, you need a way to capture them independently from anything that is a log file unter VFS control... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 20:24:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB1C36A72D for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:24:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFDv002N7z42Vc for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:24:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.224.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N8XLj-1kuUX14BWb-014X5o; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:24:39 +0200 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:24:38 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200726222438.719b77cf.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lPHHXGzJs7s2hviMn57O7/34atfN5YNNG46DfdqcFyycNiIW0ry efLhAiCKo2z5qCdGJUGqp2F18wpw2F+j5gUyKGrnxQ943S05+W908FnyLJmoz6AKJ6Ej7DK YmkzM0XYCFd8Uta7P8jF9257bhuiVz9ca8YmmayJOLiwWxihnHltwf2A5B2tvoCqES2A1MC T/N8BAvt6gZvNu8ew0pDQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:r9jm7XPkG1s=:KL/hNm/TTeg7WczJz9SqMt ANl5SU5uAhSHaPlX+U6BmoFaDHFngibt49u3P3wJcLcel952+gauOZrnmcvCpyDcpgMZ+3KxQ OuHhs4bFWvxCcu+xnXLEfdH96B9433UuPymUNmR9V0E3kDLDpoxLEvpPz6Rb0gh0kgPcxStkS D/9M/Z+ZcvdNzUmKxiWRq/aWI0fhij4XAyypxjQJhHUio4Yhalg2GOi/J/llC5ZI1cG7sywee Qiw9CfgWdU7LNqq4Dg3nRwladqJm7ecjJ7FKT5eLKoM19JNI/m/st0JtPaubmaF6g/Y0fWqA4 7ZMqHsJ5Fjphii4o9lZ4CqoDCbKZqk9l3oQBGrOjkvAG9bfk1zJOUrcX+zMJJ4BSz+8TZvHdt An+ur1CiyKND3/Oj92FyOv6VdNlbfWfV4eoug8hWwl2+6b+sDUxqkEAyKUvZZpNWRglSKe6QP kQM9zbHDwxxrS93aC2GVKMZn72Dov8yY3uufJV0wMwiL1VpqstB01FzJyjEUo/CMUTxkp3Ok0 2romj5dqd7CcsW6H0S1xuw05llVePBaAY+dGoGHNNilXszHSWeB4GCShxV3Yusk1/IoyYrz0c N3dS+TJMpGlUEiLnABKNktb3tlKphsIwYIEfBhaZrHrhw+tZ7mBhhUqjNuRqo2YKTkzbxVtHf 7G82mgaD9w5Pg7NPZXPsOQLQAqlMHOj7hNkqLzg/TDRiU6SAd2JbevSeaFThufGJf/o9UuEJo SvWckRyFqlX2rXVcJPHEEPU4pKsK1ohDy6GfnmQ7IfRyeusETcDP5uBibVbZnZmzSSt9wH9oT kIvs7GiIRfLqToZz7nKOoyIigzlu3uldxA1UG9zgF7zkwmn4rvq8DQAqxQ2rFiiPKO038Xv X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFDv002N7z42Vc X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.68 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.224.215:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.43)[-0.427]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.12)[0.122]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.59)[0.587]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:24:45 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 7/26/20 10:18 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >> > >>> FreeBSD freezes, then kills some innocent random processes like > >>> local_unbound, then it may slowly recover. Sometimes it guesses > >>> correctly and kills the offender (firefox most often). > >> > >> What else would you have it do ? Kill the largest process ? Kill > >> the last process to call malloc ? There is no good response to OOM. The OS > >> has no way to know which processes you care about most. > > > > I agree, Steve. Killing a process is a bad thing always. And it's not always the "best thing" to do: If a process is killed for whatever reason, a parent process might think it is a good idea to spawn a new process that then starts to behave the same way the killed process did. > I must confess, > these are decently large RAM machines. No swap on servers and > workstation. Swap of the same size as RAM (16GB) on laptop. And I still > do not consider myself lucky. Because disk space is cheap today, I tend to create swap partitions everywhere. If they aren't used - fine. But in a case where swap space is expected, due to "memory is full" or "I want to write a core file", it doesn't harm, and in worst case it can be ignored. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jul 26 20:39:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D265836B1C4 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:39:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b9b42c.b3fbdb7eb99c8e1a5fc2fb7662e6090e@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFFCw3mTjz43V7 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:39:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005b9b42c.b3fbdb7eb99c8e1a5fc2fb7662e6090e@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595795965; x=1598387965; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; 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DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.933]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b9b42c.b3fbdb7eb99c8e1a5fc2fb7662e6090e@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005b9b42c.b3fbdb7eb99c8e1a5fc2fb7662e6090e@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:39:26 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:56:16 -0500 Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 7/26/20 10:52 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 > > Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > >> My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my > >> understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes > >> to recover maximum amount of resources. > > > > Not always the right thing to do though. > > > >> Another speculative way to say > >> it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating > >> more RAM is first candidate. > > > > What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that > > has a run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters > > running on the system. > > > > And yes, I agreed with your sentiments (or judgement): killing a process > is a bad thing always. Agreed before writing any of my comments. The trouble is there really isn't anything else the OS can do because nobody ever thought to implement SIG_RELEASE_SOME_MEMORY_PLEASE which would probably be the ideal solution provided at least *some* programs responded to it. Which leaves the only variable how to choose which process to kill and there are no general rules for a good choice. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 00:09:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED0C3709DC for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:09:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFKtH5r34z4F0S for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:09:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.224.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M4skB-1jyTWn2GJz-001yJo; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:22 +0200 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:21 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Valeri Galtsev , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200727020921.92e951f7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200726213915.00772928e53bd4105872ee71@sohara.org> References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726213915.00772928e53bd4105872ee71@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.72 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.224.215:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.17)[-0.166]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.77)[0.772]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.72)[0.717]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:09:29 -0000 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:39:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:56:16 -0500 > Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > > > > On 7/26/20 10:52 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 > > > Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > > >> My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my > > >> understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes > > >> to recover maximum amount of resources. > > > > > > Not always the right thing to do though. > > > > > >> Another speculative way to say > > >> it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating > > >> more RAM is first candidate. > > > > > > What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that > > > has a run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters > > > running on the system. > > > > > > > And yes, I agreed with your sentiments (or judgement): killing a process > > is a bad thing always. Agreed before writing any of my comments. > > The trouble is there really isn't anything else the OS can do > because nobody ever thought to implement SIG_RELEASE_SOME_MEMORY_PLEASE > which would probably be the ideal solution provided at least *some* > programs responded to it. As you mentioned, it depends on the problem programs ("apps") to actually receive and act upon such a signal. "We don't need to care for SIGMEM, because if _we_ need memore, we _need_ it, and the fscking OS should pay attention to us and give us all that memory!" ;-) > Which leaves the only variable how to choose which process to kill > and there are no general rules for a good choice. The OS cannot guess what programs the user is interested in keeping at a certain time, and what programs it could stop to free resources, neither can it predict how programs will react when some processes are killed from within a call hierarchy. "If a subtask is killed, re-instantiate the task, but allocate twice the memory it had before!" ;-) So we're currently living with what is technically possible, not with what we desire to happen... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 02:52:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296EC374401 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:52:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFPVh1T3Zz4NVb for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:52:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=ArIOWuL+qPTwcfwysuCFnhXo/mU9LyMkJP12vIY3zGQ=; b=EJbGstyM99UygbOT0bLmO5b85o KzH0KjMTpupvHza5bk8jO27CjDsuAkgsRgxiMk2yr4kzyO56Y2y6+XKtYo1GbVK8Cb8Rdl5VH3WnB k4vS7B+w9Mth7kjOxdiunvjU/5N51nlibvseQAbSadFeyQs0tDLgUjhvpESOjY1ayVZk=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jztFq-000Cmh-SC for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:52:42 +0700 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:52:42 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFPVh1T3Zz4NVb X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=EJbGstyM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.23 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.032]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.094]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:52:45 -0000 --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 > Valeri Galtsev wrote: >=20 > > My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my=20 > > understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes= =20 > > to recover maximum amount of resources. >=20 > Not always the right thing to do though. >=20 > > Another speculative way to say=20 > > it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating= =20 > > more RAM is first candidate. >=20 > What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that has a > run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters running > on the system. If such a program's data is valuable at all, it should save provisional results from time to time to a non-volatile storage. Even office editors and spreadsheets save their data periodically. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJfHkF6AAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0R4QIAJmqGG9AX3znL3SgcKK7QGpE LlY98kWYCUGsMX6680951Z8pqyxf+q90KMxokzwGmL4qCel7VOHM/+GgBVl2SELJ RMxSCwoYWuzUAGe4Yb7wfK3gUKz5q5A524NPxcqSDP49fVSVTlUEtL/tttS1etHN kF1tyYZCV95ocEZKD392NL5uzUYoZFqkwjB6c0WZ0yyTM1BjtL0+OFqe0y1jgK0z 8Otxrgmjuzqqx5S7X8jcYPKbz4V+jd4yvXl2eS3KDnEqX4qJAYwPmkIYHtGbHJGp ZuD1UM694/zUmJ1BmfWExN5j6BVUVJnXueVacYOxiliFH0draspJcf2Qv0kKjM4= =+6EU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 03:01:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E9E37483C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:01:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFPhc3v0Cz4P7n for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:01:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=3Fc/MozAdUovNfQvY4cBPnzMmuAKmN5iOn8ldEbDyqc=; b=UZj7++kRVnkF25QMh68hH5v6QJ 9zc0Ves89YUkxV/52gneKQbN5PfuASWqCcHqp3pIcN+x2j+PczbEJj5mp+zHGbdD5qvnremhu5rSj hnSFEjL5jNQHZLQsmXUuN0Bgcj941K7onjplkakF/woh5EVKPgFCKMmyPQBz9D35mDuA=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jztOB-000Cq9-8S for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:01:19 +0700 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:01:19 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727030119.GB48950@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726222438.719b77cf.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WhfpMioaduB5tiZL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200726222438.719b77cf.freebsd@edvax.de> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFPhc3v0Cz4P7n X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=UZj7++kR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.033]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.075]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:01:21 -0000 --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Polytropon wrote: [dd] >=20 > Because disk space is cheap today, I tend to create swap > partitions everywhere. If they aren't used - fine. But in > a case where swap space is expected, due to "memory is full" > or "I want to write a core file", it doesn't harm, and in > worst case it can be ignored. :-) I fully agree with you. An unused swap space probably cannot hurt and is cheap, but one day you may suddenly need it. I also find it useful to keep additional swap volumes on ZFS because they don't consume physical disk space (I hope) until actually used. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJfHkN/AAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0Gp0IALYFr5eCRYy1gfDQWlWGAHyK uf68hojo1Hf/fGlXs/WLIq2h6yeDntET3j6gu+4dvo5e+NLO6v7+laRfkPDnktv+ YFlFtacQBfRWYDHocL4jzzwssy8hA0nOAf1zITJcNYVUWgMBNtukElWy92+YyhPu LtwuVcNeBXx0WxYvLphRWoBunYcJPY1Ufaeu7RMGo+d1f4whYkUJNZ3A7k1ra+RF GlP4lPqjo+a3ks3SvmzkdUGHsN1ieBlfMf8Odl3crrt+QROjnvb4fZ10xyXdNydy THhS41/bTuxdXzlINxVVHDrFgengqHkcCKnNQdCX8/XdvWrkAaP1SS262Al8Hng= =2/Bm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WhfpMioaduB5tiZL-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 03:33:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C142F37563E for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:33:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFQPk5mVpz4QPp for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:33:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.48]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FB5F4E662 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:33:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:33:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFQPk5mVpz4QPp X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.48:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.55)[-0.554]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.370]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.402]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:33:31 -0000 On 7/26/20 9:52 PM, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 >> Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >>> My understanding of Linux OOM killer lies along same lines though my >>> understanding is much more simplified: kill minimal number of processes >>> to recover maximum amount of resources. >> >> Not always the right thing to do though. >> >>> Another speculative way to say >>> it would be: process owning maximum amount of RAM that keeps allocating >>> more RAM is first candidate. >> >> What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that has a >> run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters running >> on the system. > > If such a program's data is valuable at all, it should save provisional > results from time to time to a non-volatile storage. Yes, That was what I said too.I even used standard word for this: checkpointing. Like in number crunching where you just restart your job from last checkpoint. Did my message not go through to the mail list? Valeri > Even office > editors and spreadsheets save their data periodically. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 05:19:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D68376BD7 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:19:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c2f34e.4acd0d9a2a7ceb82d329dba618e948dd@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFSm36mV2z4Ty9 for ; 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:19:28 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzvXr-000BhG-9x for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:19:27 +0100 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:19:27 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200727061927.e392885daedab739e1c94b2e@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; 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DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.320]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c2f34e.4acd0d9a2a7ceb82d329dba618e948dd@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c2f34e.4acd0d9a2a7ceb82d329dba618e948dd@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:19:32 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:52:42 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 10:39:16 -0500 > > What a pity if that is the heavy weight analytic program that > > has a run time of several hours/days and is the only thing that matters > > running on the system. > > If such a program's data is valuable at all, it should save provisional > results from time to time to a non-volatile storage. Even office > editors and spreadsheets save their data periodically. Ideally yes, but sometimes (especially when such a task is very memory hungry) it's a one-off to get an answer needed by management. AFter all well run production systems don't run into swapping issues. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 05:21:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B24376BEB for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:21:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c2f3d2.002784b5fc48f76f13eda3e365b34662@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFSnq6rP9z4Tqd for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:21:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c2f3d2.002784b5fc48f76f13eda3e365b34662@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595827264; x=1598419264; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=gRgvc+nfxJM5i3GhVMPaEKmDhW6B6xAPhawEmJm7C0Q=; b=NMLU6xpLBHuch4t1Cwt2JhHcyn2QIa4kbErWQHtzKG5gMwzra2Fk+FjZJRq7C4tJKeb2MJd28rpsZ0sxAM3m81vR+vbCJkMeQj9+ualBSNiqC2+7mmH1aor6PlPflhcId0ds2J7zNtZo5/HwOXwHYfhztb7tbuO8gzsWOaR3/oQ= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDVjMmYzZDIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:21:03 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:21:02 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jzvZM-000Bhf-Uj; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:21:00 +0100 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:21:00 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: Valeri Galtsev , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200727062100.d1320f1a9874b56a85ae18e6@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200727020921.92e951f7.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726213915.00772928e53bd4105872ee71@sohara.org> <20200727020921.92e951f7.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFSnq6rP9z4Tqd X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=NMLU6xpL; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005c2f3d2.002784b5fc48f76f13eda3e365b34662@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005c2f3d2.002784b5fc48f76f13eda3e365b34662@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.005]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.61)[-0.611]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c2f3d2.002784b5fc48f76f13eda3e365b34662@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c2f3d2.002784b5fc48f76f13eda3e365b34662@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:21:05 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:21 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > So we're currently living with what is technically possible, > not with what we desire to happen... Precisely. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 07:40:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3958B379517 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:40:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62a.google.com (mail-ej1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFWv04kmFz4b9x for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:40:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id kq25so3081001ejb.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent :mime-version; bh=dc927Ucc6/csaWBf75++wsXxjoUuaOsIl891NgbTPMo=; b=uOuBwiklBBlTNyNdt+GPsuSAv12vK8Dtb6pj72BCMP/VNfHu3E1qnXT2YqojS7LeUH /zviELihMRm1aMAVtvcRILwpLEvQQ6IpbcDaUrsrO125+OhAoGwZ2XxuIV92vvvxtS+J +DEKiHgeI+m2p9PmvYyTbh60CvEf6KBxVO8s0zz8PEJQpu1+ztl2WShWP21XP66fm7dG Gk6v/ptX6H9gbw1/jH7ocUOfEKN4Dc0AsNV9O2mwWQ3O16jMBby7X2Iggb72/c1H8YV1 tVMFslNZpm+DkUT5qQwtNHHUCLl+cVuDssarDOJx/5FHWE/PjQLuClUvMml/z0LBsf5r I4Qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=dc927Ucc6/csaWBf75++wsXxjoUuaOsIl891NgbTPMo=; b=bH+GDOhwRC6grgl5YEKR5EabiGigTUfPAke2VYGJHTxkogWvetc3GtCTF3xpHinleb k1e2UzHUpUzvVMz/PJGh/pqfmXCDKMIG6jqEq1+2jlG2VH4/Bo1y30dPOd3vIUUitzB+ 0BmtrwFqZb2hyI0UbK/nQD492LJXF6yvhweUKOdi5QA6Ohaq9jHPMHNgZT9qpslCOHlH 8MqAc1XCaCjrOcxNhSd51rLwD76vZdmWMPSe63PGJfgY49oPVSjpoMBA3iVYn1bUtTjR N0zztcC7fByLk/u9a89XYNJfEFmRX47aLW8tN6tupBT0Y5D3zCdU09gtL4vr4UzgoPYp 33eA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531iZ0P/Z3rz1u6DerfGyWgRkUYuU1XgU9jR920mdDWObHOBEIYC TKlQWb4uLmSM63MxoX/XHarD9bt4hKU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiGNAAIyRjgHWg0cEmhp4uqHCpX7bAgciwQzgPerN20TaQGgGiLlCYeoGW/561H2ecd+2L2w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:7750:: with SMTP id o16mr293358ejn.454.1595835643136; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.26] (dslb-188-102-038-150.188.102.pools.vodafone-ip.de. [188.102.38.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x96sm6861121ede.17.2020.07.27.00.40.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:37:29 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux In-Reply-To: <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.23 (BSF 453 2020-06-18) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFWv04kmFz4b9x X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=uOuBwikl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[188.102.38.150:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.948]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::62a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.089]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:40:45 -0000 Would be not a good Idea to make a mailing list freebsd-smalltalk? Examples of Usage: (a) Ask stupid questions (b) give stupid answers (c) speak about Technological advantages over Linux (d) to be home of a lot of long threads whose main purpose is small talk. Well, the real use would be as spam filter. Rod. 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:04:12 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFXQ80rGGz4c5M X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=glkgddo3; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=OTSf3z8g; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 66.111.4.224 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.58 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.027]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.224]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.937]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[66.111.4.224:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:04:17 -0000 Roderick wrote: > > Would be not a good Idea to make a mailing list freebsd-smalltalk? > > Examples of Usage: > > (a) Ask stupid questions > > (b) give stupid answers > > (c) speak about Technological advantages over Linux > > (d) to be home of a lot of long threads whose main purpose is small >     talk. > > Well, the real use would be as spam filter. There always was (is) freebsd-chat@ for these purposes, I'm not sure why the same posters keep spamming freebsd-questions@ with the same long threads. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 08:21:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908B837A4E2 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFXp73KN3z4cyT for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:21:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id a5so803216ioa.13 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:21:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DyczIJ2fjAdSKLDCoYJqimjMcpf8C/1sfejn4Z8HfoQ=; b=ZZGHAQbXolRTy80K9FZoVa8t6b4kMsbT2A1mYq4F5KBbyTcPmHyvbDlhtdHY4yyRz/ u7F2XEQautm0erKsYHDIYGkCQD8p8KPzbu1rf31ElDjXqERlzEomUK2ezxsv6tQRBtBk txMaR1V0kKkgMqtU0B6CN3JrO0vmx/7JsiEPQS8DZC8EtVno/TNoa1UYdCBFlL8xXgfa OL9mbdnzkZMwn6soz7gBkATZ3EpL/94tXY4hmmurO/Hm5/npBO4rs1we7F8fhl9nuCNM eLl6uYvA9o8ab5ZNfjU2YSNh8OJhyTkdApuBDWKReNZvOsG9R9mNGdBjNaqii5dVQW+O qNsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DyczIJ2fjAdSKLDCoYJqimjMcpf8C/1sfejn4Z8HfoQ=; b=tO7fW91r1TMjFSzQ5w69R3kJjbjhgIpIy6zKy7ZuzLTm+QPm5tGwAh/ZYfxknxC4RH rJzjq25DHbpIuX+b9TIwGYzM/RcPr1eWOxNolLDFljiktgqnFrhql/GSXBay5oDlWqoa 66qRb6Qvve+nVUlb6hZsusTKtSdupgpNmkNS/pryllO4frucBc/WAIQCVJAncKCf98Xl EHwnmMzdGa9fIVNJKhrle416pVGF/r7st4BjFBP+27TN9LZYeeZa3RYlEmH91JW8JTld DZCPuvCkvs29TcP5/JFDxe0uvEK6X2VzDVEPBKffoDB+keW0TLavUKLqS6xzsqF7bQPX c5rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533B7ffVQIEl/ZJ9HDWMc9NhAliO3V2+nxnQRQSCg1swH6X165bL EltmwLtXOU3LBtaOEIlQ0hfCRGhfjdxbuJu2vkcCQIPV X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3i7ocLr5HUl5qbmCDuFLHUI6u77wc6qBoqMIxCQ3yoV4v7i0miv1+Rvq/Htzv/qeffY7UvKIeeyvxCiyN1VI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:220f:: with SMTP id n15mr22963802ion.103.1595838094002; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:21:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:21:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Yuri Pankov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFXp73KN3z4cyT X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ZZGHAQbX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.952]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:21:36 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 4:04 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > Roderick wrote: > > > > Would be not a good Idea to make a mailing list freebsd-smalltalk? > > > > Examples of Usage: > > > > (a) Ask stupid questions > > > > (b) give stupid answers > > > > (c) speak about Technological advantages over Linux > > > > (d) to be home of a lot of long threads whose main purpose is small > > talk. > > > > Well, the real use would be as spam filter. > > There always was (is) freebsd-chat@ for these purposes, I'm not sure why > the same posters keep spamming freebsd-questions@ with the same long > threads. > You are confusing posters and the OP. The problem is not the "posters" it is the "OP"'s. What I mean is each of these threads is started by a different OP and for different reasons. You are right it is usually the same set of people that reply to the OP but that is *NOT* the same as saying that they are purposely spamming -questions@. The OP often has legitimate questions about the differences between Linux and FreeBSD (or in the case of the thread you're replying to how to defend their preference for FreeBSD's technical merits against co-workers who for whatever reason attempt to make Linux the only Unix-like OS allowed in their organization). Additional even much of the thread might be "noise" on "concrete" technical matters useful and practical issues are often raised in the various subthreads. I can think of two issues that are very legitimate topics for -questions@ (by any definition) being raised (and answered) in this thread for example. The first was helping me diagnose the source (and a partial) solution I had to gtk based on app performance (which would not have been raised in a separate thread since I didn't consider the issues to be upon themselves serious enough to post about as an independent question). I forget the subject matter of the other concrete issue that was solved. All this being said there is a rash of *SOME* of the regular set of posters who say "FreeBSD is not designed for XYZ, don't use it for XYZ use Linux instead" (this is not helpful and is nothing but being a troll). TL; DR -- This thread while annoying to some is appropriate for -questions@ -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 08:50:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E44B37B395 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:50:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFYQw1rjSz4fbv for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:49:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0D110197; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:49:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Roderick , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: <44edc823-924b-d931-e6c0-37708b1a41ef@qeng-ho.org> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:49:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFYQw1rjSz4fbv X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.958]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.80)[-0.801]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:50:01 -0000 On 27/07/2020 08:37, Roderick wrote: > > Would be not a good Idea to make a mailing list freebsd-smalltalk? I'd expect that to be about Smalltalk (and its derivatives) on FreeBSD. And there would be endless bikeshedding on whether or not it should have been freebsd-oop to cover other OO languages. :-) -- The number of people predicting the demise of Moore's Law doubles every 18 months. 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[188.102.38.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g22sm7030848eds.67.2020.07.27.01.50.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:47:05 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.23 (BSF 453 2020-06-18) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFYRH4Tdpz4fyL X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Z40b7jxt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::643 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[188.102.38.150:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.937]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::643:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.454]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:50:20 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > All this being said there is a rash of *SOME* of the regular set of posters > who say "FreeBSD is not designed for XYZ, don't use it for XYZ use Linux > instead" (this is not helpful and is nothing but being a troll). A completely acceptable answer. What is not acceptable, is, converting the mailbox of each of the (hundreds? thouthands?) members of the list into a chat room for small talk. For small talk is more appropriate the mentioned list freebsd-chat@ to which I would not subscribe, the usenet group comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc or the web forum https://forums.freebsd.org Rod. 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:18:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:18:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Roderick Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFZ3k69ypz4hJH X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=lIGZkJV7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.023]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::141:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.84)[-0.837]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:18:27 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 4:50 AM Roderick wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > All this being said there is a rash of *SOME* of the regular set of > posters > > who say "FreeBSD is not designed for XYZ, don't use it for XYZ use Linux > > instead" (this is not helpful and is nothing but being a troll). > > A completely acceptable answer. > > What is not acceptable, is, converting the mailbox of each of the > (hundreds? thouthands?) members of the list into a chat room for > small talk. > > For small talk is more appropriate the mentioned > Not according to the handbook's description of each list: -questions@: User questions and technical support -chat@: Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community The questions being asked were by a user of FreeBSD and were technical in nature (the technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux). Here are the other possible lists and by their descriptions none of them made sense for the subject matter of the OP's post: -advocacy@: FreeBSD Evangelism (the OP was not asking how to market FreeBSD just defend it on technical grounds to upper management of their org) -women@: Victor is not a very female name (enough said) There is no -smalltalk@ list and even if there was it would be a misleading name since there is a programming language by that name. So the bottom line is @questions- is the best (and only) place for such threads. If you want a new group, suggest one to the owners of the freebsd mailing lists and see if you can make one. or the web forum > > https://forums.freebsd.org The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to get the widest possible input. To quote "The mailing lists are the most direct way of addressing questions or opening a technical discussion to a concentrated FreeBSD audience." -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 09:33:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA1637C31B for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:33:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jiang.xu@citrix.com) Received: from esa4.hc3370-68.iphmx.com (esa4.hc3370-68.iphmx.com [216.71.155.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "esa4.hc3370-68.iphmx.com", Issuer "HydrantID SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFZPK111Yz4jJn for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:33:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jiang.xu@citrix.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=citrix.com; s=securemail; t=1595842421; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=r5xD3vmVhwOUFpXydqIOcdThQ7O8Va62QqhtyaPXOnU=; 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[188.102.38.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o6sm7170411edr.94.2020.07.27.02.39.55 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:36:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Unteachable Spammers on FreeBSD lists Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.23 (BSF 453 2020-06-18) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFZXY6NQ4z4k6d X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=qNULTAxn; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::630 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.63 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; CTYPE_MIXED_BOGUS(1.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.72)[-0.721]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[188.102.38.150:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.933]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.974]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/mixed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::630:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:39:58 -0000 Following your own logic of reading carefully the handbook and list descritions: questions is for questions and answers, not for small talk. Perhaps the handbook and list mantainers could make corrections in the wording, but it will not help against spamers: intrusion is in soul of spamers. If all people here answer like that, I will have to unsubscribe, as perhaps other people do (or never subscribed). Rod. On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Not according to the handbook's description of each list: > > -questions@: User questions and technical support > -chat@: Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community > > The questions being asked were by a user of FreeBSD and were technical in > nature (the technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux).   Here are the other > possible lists and by their descriptions none of them made sense for the > subject matter of the OP's post: > > -advocacy@: FreeBSD Evangelism (the OP was not asking how to market FreeBSD > just defend it on technical grounds to upper management of their org) > -women@: Victor is not a very female name (enough said) > > There is no -smalltalk@ list and even if there was it would be a misleading > name since there is a programming language by that name. > > So the bottom line is @questions- is the best (and only) place for such > threads.   If you want a new group, suggest one to the owners of the freebsd > mailing lists and see if you can make one. > > or the web forum > > https://forums.freebsd.org > > > The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate about > FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to get the widest > possible input.  To quote "The mailing lists are the most direct way of > addressing questions or opening a technical discussion to a concentrated > FreeBSD audience." > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 09:57:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C00837CB2C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:57:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFZx9573tz4l35 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:57:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id t4so12546714iln.1 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:57:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K+J/GTLRnpR0vGxSS0YHpQOjWVObuYb4cjKlnc7vsHo=; b=Ccc71KuyJyTfSYTK5wdX7lY4jReothVSTzTKJ8JfxNoSCa1x5rOcAL3xV6h0LUpAxM Oui+pJndejKzyOsV1kpqfyIugXebXB+35xxkFOaUzH0zo4NbJfMx+4Y0cDBTwyEMwoah FbYSkqjt0Wom8AR/6ZLyPxLOap8F4XNQyKKNFPUEBaDMUNDWC4p495zDp+qjkMU7piRl CgXjkZqAX/claDMNiV+huP0NX/8VtXIPMVWNZJQipH4Ly9mw+fKp14ab3UHPUgUREfCj hIOMa1JGgF54XcaHjw5uxmFLn9I8WtIaLxxXinzZhNQ4hikldgyHPyPEW4gj8gvwExq+ vhnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K+J/GTLRnpR0vGxSS0YHpQOjWVObuYb4cjKlnc7vsHo=; b=Wg8tPIQUnroV/G6hpiuu//1P0HhkvMO2Yt5kO+L7neAMTSBS3SJ2ODme9NqS7Gnh9H jB/Lqm681QvqCs50Jg5aax3IbY2kCFBwGXNOlA85HJV9lrhhn/qd+lezP/PlrDbVdtJG 4G84sg5dvtSDm2CDesLKPOkr/LCi4SiThZJlx/z7uzqaa0R0XQkq1amiBlA2+X+aD37b 85hYOcp5pKmjQXROepb/RxP8Pmt0WCKpSpmIbVeAS+ESX4gr6bPo5l9BtD+KEVsW2E/F H3HBHstaEKZ21dog1Am/BxEF1GusZJCDqWD+Tds5TPhbLgQcIeVzClsh9/ZR7lSrbbXL 46KA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gHm5Xk20eaLXTl9vd7Pi23nIgwyYG0zSdwG8KfNsL5JlZmhGN X3r2ehqcczfXDr1Rvt11ss8rj7et7ZnIussykCo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwaOcRAtIZiuex3WT2FmiUQ8Imbkf1LNRJfZN/7WD79vACP3qQy0fHVm0pH90bH9zd7khqepNQPpy1Vd1Wi574= X-Received: by 2002:a92:b60a:: with SMTP id s10mr16072691ili.119.1595843868390; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:57:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:57:36 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Unteachable Spammers on FreeBSD lists To: Roderick Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFZx9573tz4l35 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Ccc71Kuy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.12 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.038]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.024]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.06)[-1.061]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:57:50 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 5:40 AM Roderick wrote: > > Following your own logic of reading carefully the handbook and > list descritions: questions is for questions and answers, not > for small talk. > One person's small talk is another person's legitimate question/answer and vice versa. Thus the measure you claim the handbook gives is completely subjective and again to quote the handbook (and mailing list FAQ): On the purpose of mailing lists (FAQ): "The FreeBSD mailing lists serve as the primary communication channels for the FreeBSD community, covering many different topic areas and communities of interest." On which list to use (Handbook): " Sending questions to the most appropriate mailing list will invariably assure a faster and more accurate response." As stated in the message you are responding to -questions@ due to its catch all nature is the most appropriate list. If you want to create a new one that is more appropriate talk to the FreeBSD team about doing so (they always welcome help!) If you have issues with how the Handbook and mailing list FAQ are worded and/or the actual meta content of the documents take it up with the FreeBSD team. > Perhaps the handbook and list mantainers could make corrections > in the wording, but it will not help against spamers: intrusion > is in soul of spamers. > Since FreeBSD is an all volunteer effort you might want to volunteer to "correct" this since the current team is more than satisfied with the current definition else they would not of written what they did in the Handbook and FAQ. > If all people here answer like that, I will have to unsubscribe, > as perhaps other people do (or never subscribed). > You are of course free to do whatever you want but it will not change the nature of reality for anyone else. But the fact you top posted your reply shows you likely have never even read the mailing list FAQ so no wonder you are making assumptions about the purpose of different mailing lists that are not correct. > Rod. > > > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > Not according to the handbook's description of each list: > > > > -questions@: User questions and technical support > > -chat@: Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community > > > > The questions being asked were by a user of FreeBSD and were technical in > > nature (the technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux). Here are the other > > possible lists and by their descriptions none of them made sense for the > > subject matter of the OP's post: > > > > -advocacy@: FreeBSD Evangelism (the OP was not asking how to market > FreeBSD > > just defend it on technical grounds to upper management of their org) > > -women@: Victor is not a very female name (enough said) > > > > There is no -smalltalk@ list and even if there was it would be a > misleading > > name since there is a programming language by that name. > > > > So the bottom line is @questions- is the best (and only) place for such > > threads. If you want a new group, suggest one to the owners of the > freebsd > > mailing lists and see if you can make one. > > > > or the web forum > > > > https://forums.freebsd.org > > > > > > The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate about > > FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to get the > widest > > possible input. To quote "The mailing lists are the most direct way of > > addressing questions or opening a technical discussion to a concentrated > > FreeBSD audience." > > > > -- > > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 09:58:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F2C37C9F1 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFZxv2Zqpz4lBt for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1C8E51C82B for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from PD0786.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:ded:1bf7:34f9:2ddd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7948CF70D for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/7948CF70D; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: how to reset login in freebsd if the password is expired To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <1595842242103.79959@citrix.com> <1595842414286.43801@citrix.com> From: matthew@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <3a7c5322-4e29-a839-cab1-a724fd2bd87f@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:58:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1595842414286.43801@citrix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:27 -0000 On 27/07/2020 10:33, Jiang Xu wrote: > I set the root login to be expired in 90 days, and we forget to > update the password of the login, and the password is expired, and > now we can not login in on it? but we can access the disc with attach > it to another instance, is there any way to reset the expired > password? First of all, as you have discovered, setting the root password to expire is not a good idea. In some ways, the root account is your account of last resort for regaining access to or control of the system, so don't implement policies that would ever deny that. See the passwd(5) manual page. The 7th column in the master.passwd file is the account expiry time. If you can mount your drive on a second machine, then edit `master.passwd` and set that field to `0` for the root account. It should look something like this: root:$1$XXXXXXXCENSOREDXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:0:0::0:0:Charlie &:/root:/bin/csh ^ this field Then, assuming you've temporarily mounted the disk at /mnt so the file you're editing is /mnt/etc/master.passwd, you need to run: pwd_mkdb -d /mnt/etc -p /mnt/etc/master.passwd After that, replace the drive in the original machine and reboot. You can also do this without taking the drive out of the original machine by booting into single user mode, but in that case you will need to remount the root partition read-write: mount -u / -o rw and obviously in this case the root partition will be mounted in the usual location, so adjust paths in `pwd_mkdb` appropriately. Cheers, Matthew From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 09:58:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DF937CF01 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFZyF4rdMz4l3n for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.203.242]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MFL4B-1k2Skb3xYf-00FnSh; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:58:41 +0200 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:58:40 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Jiang Xu Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: how to reset login in freebsd if the password is expired Message-Id: <20200727115840.2c1912ca.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <1595842414286.43801@citrix.com> References: <1595842242103.79959@citrix.com> <1595842414286.43801@citrix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8YEyB4rXd19jUY+LCme9/6/5x0OVouf6q7mgEyzdj8Haje7kRiT TnSvaPGUknwWdXTzfQndC3Ge9vJcJwBlblQm92mUiMNdeVvDK5CJHM8qMu4yQuy277QyTzf JlP/U0IA0f4p1KFmwWFTfZ+CVPdsqbmiFZYY2Flq0Miqw4y31wMrJQgP/PYvboBCTJUthhm 6ZhgTaKK6JP2ATVedrLpw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:mkILrV5pyds=:BbKUWdst5Jb6rkHLD7R6tn 5uhE6D2LMK6dPHcSbWUlKksTmrVE0Um9tI8jjtCTfG8f+HsCJQhPQgEAtTucgiXYwh9+EVhCq kyqniyPUL6v4xlYpg2DnoB6yfGw6NCZYJ/c8bQdMwjWwiHrQe2diIbzU4xJUMbgdDh7BUNQGK VeePl0PhDrO9NP/y7at1zjpQBPVavbjtrsOdIEn5DRCUC+tFbrjlg6FJ0ufAfegfzD2Xjsskv 5+v732BJBj5j/BXoK1ME4Ftek341Oej+bjxW4SSpAvITUlmVsfPT9783yJr4xZZ4t2fDnkuVi IJPzWqx/hzAMZzHNJ4h1j5usKTP/PmrgUDkgtVbmutfSElbDSpMKWRedHXQx18oY28gWr71Tu VH3SPbLgZtNOpKApbKY0fl/l2/Ri+2oLX1PBsHbO2bT9j9Q4PMHIoUJgEwl38wxb5xqVV2Idb Hwvc8Z/S9zvlCj314vtg0Bhu1kbzj/GGLv5rhssfSSDlBU9u2avRPc0pOxtYbEXq/oF1pnU9V ms+RpT43Svgw7h7Um57NAjCEcNSTWTWAkSe7duW/9RJmOI0X4T7ixkBNpak5NVmbJ4fMST9Cc mJV/DjjN1Qjw091AxqB6M3fmnZ8dDWT9YOwp7oQn1cFElRQginRpqFQ4GgdXwqE/Oobp9674M iOkhgl8waTM1fqavd+/OXPY3AXJ2sUBTlEtjJcbW1f+6btc8u0bQgzlJl585pT+PB5mBOCtPQ 9zpHi2Fmz2k3z4c69A1qb4HQfmpYH7EnQgxX6Z3ouSu1icvm5z59jkXzzOQeyYMQsPpeCQFkg GC0GQmaye1P/LxTXH74TWh9NHtYWDvX6KUcdTQffxWSrEgRMQnZD7e8WAm64fFe2wNa+lGL X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFZyF4rdMz4l3n X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.14 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.59)[-0.591]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.203.242:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.85)[0.852]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.48)[0.481]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:58:46 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:33:34 +0000, Jiang Xu wrote: > I set the root login to be expired in 90 days, and we forget > to update the password of the login, and the password is expired, > and now we can not login in on it? but we can access the disc > with attach it to another instance, is there any way to reset > the expired password? If you can boot the system on that disk in single-user mode (and /etc/ttys says your console is marked "secure"), you can login as root _without_ a password (an emergency shell is started after the single-user mode boot process has been completed). Mount the root partition r/w and make whatever changes are needed ("passwd root" or "pw" command). If that is not possible, you could manually remove the encrypted password from /etc/master.passwd and manually rebuild the password databases /etc/pwd.db and /etc/spwd.db. See "man 1 passwd", "man 5 passwd" and "man 8 pwd_mkdb" as well as "man 8 pw" for further details. Some more hints and examples here: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/corrupt-password-file-s.46264/ I assume you have not enabled a "toor" user, which you could also use... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d203sm17882987qkc.10.2020.07.27.03.30.44 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFbg7226Vz1GhZ for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:30:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:30:36 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/aXhFQYa8FXbhV9t6yPg2Uz8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFbgD0LTlz4mxv X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=InPmmo26; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::744 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.35 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.37)[-0.367]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.720]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.966]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::744:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:30:49 -0000 --Sig_/aXhFQYa8FXbhV9t6yPg2Uz8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:18:13 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 4:50 AM Roderick wrote: > >> >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> =20 >> > All this being said there is a rash of *SOME* of the regular set >> > of =20 >> posters =20 >> > who say "FreeBSD is not designed for XYZ, don't use it for XYZ use >> > Linux instead" (this is not helpful and is nothing but being a >> > troll). =20 >> >> A completely acceptable answer. >> >> What is not acceptable, is, converting the mailbox of each of the >> (hundreds? thouthands?) members of the list into a chat room for >> small talk. >> >> For small talk is more appropriate the mentioned >> =20 > >Not according to the handbook's description of each list: > >-questions@: User questions and technical support >-chat@: Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community > >The questions being asked were by a user of FreeBSD and were technical >in nature (the technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux). Here are the >other possible lists and by their descriptions none of them made sense >for the subject matter of the OP's post: > >-advocacy@: FreeBSD Evangelism (the OP was not asking how to market >FreeBSD just defend it on technical grounds to upper management of >their org) -women@: Victor is not a very female name (enough said) > >There is no -smalltalk@ list and even if there was it would be a >misleading name since there is a programming language by that name. > >So the bottom line is @questions- is the best (and only) place for such >threads. If you want a new group, suggest one to the owners of the >freebsd mailing lists and see if you can make one. > >or the web forum >> >> https://forums.freebsd.org =20 > > >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate >about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to get >the widest possible input. To quote "The mailing lists are the most >direct way of addressing questions or opening a technical discussion >to a concentrated FreeBSD audience." In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new list, appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to insure a viable user base, follow the same procedure as the the regular FreeBSD questions list and allow postings sans any preregistration. I belong to other forums where a similar technique is used to route messages to the appropriate message board. I assume it is technologically possible to implement that on FreeBSD. I know Linux and Microsoft boards that employ that procedure. :) --=20 Jerry --Sig_/aXhFQYa8FXbhV9t6yPg2Uz8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8erMwACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRDzQf/SRIqNZlpRX98xhFQbnvfm4dnC5k4mTuea6YawosFN3AlNDefQbgG00my olZH8fv9TbCo5kKeW9nVxmkn9xxKZbzU6Ubfe8bp7wzJcfsuuIv4vYPV7Z0JnaVm 2AtZsz03N6dh5U3fSEjalSoAy9MsnuXkWXnlUCoX+QxQ9X2KM1sdbdzMhNhxACNP 6Kg3LtC4ZqFPON8I+LBOEz8HvM38aoPpoiPbYrgLN/4RrruSpnxKrgId1SNaCzQZ 0enFi3yABmvX+Ck3iSa4BW+ZojQFipElXi0E8TrkfvTDfyMxXpPl5kjdnAMjD/X4 gKCb3M8Vfnzx30AgGcI4Fx/MFBaG7A== =ha/X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/aXhFQYa8FXbhV9t6yPg2Uz8-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 10:42:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A1A37DB62 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:42:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd44.google.com (mail-io1-xd44.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFbwc1fKlz4nf8 for ; 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:42:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:42:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFbwc1fKlz4nf8 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=s4/STgyR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.053]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.147]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:42:24 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 6:31 AM Jerry wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:18:13 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 4:50 AM Roderick wrote: > > > >> > >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> > >> > All this being said there is a rash of *SOME* of the regular set > >> > of > >> posters > >> > who say "FreeBSD is not designed for XYZ, don't use it for XYZ use > >> > Linux instead" (this is not helpful and is nothing but being a > >> > troll). > >> > >> A completely acceptable answer. > >> > >> What is not acceptable, is, converting the mailbox of each of the > >> (hundreds? thouthands?) members of the list into a chat room for > >> small talk. > >> > >> For small talk is more appropriate the mentioned > >> > > > >Not according to the handbook's description of each list: > > > >-questions@: User questions and technical support > >-chat@: Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community > > > >The questions being asked were by a user of FreeBSD and were technical > >in nature (the technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux). Here are the > >other possible lists and by their descriptions none of them made sense > >for the subject matter of the OP's post: > > > >-advocacy@: FreeBSD Evangelism (the OP was not asking how to market > >FreeBSD just defend it on technical grounds to upper management of > >their org) -women@: Victor is not a very female name (enough said) > > > >There is no -smalltalk@ list and even if there was it would be a > >misleading name since there is a programming language by that name. > > > >So the bottom line is @questions- is the best (and only) place for such > >threads. If you want a new group, suggest one to the owners of the > >freebsd mailing lists and see if you can make one. > > > >or the web forum > >> > >> https://forums.freebsd.org > > > > > >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate > >about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to get > >the widest possible input. To quote "The mailing lists are the most > >direct way of addressing questions or opening a technical discussion > >to a concentrated FreeBSD audience." > > In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new list, > appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to insure a viable > user base, follow the same procedure as the the regular FreeBSD > questions list and allow postings sans any preregistration. > I am not the one suggesting it (please stop putting words in my mouth) it is the person I was replying to that suggested it. > I belong to other forums where a similar technique is used to route > messages to the appropriate message board. I assume it is > technologically possible to implement that on FreeBSD. I know Linux and > Microsoft boards that employ that procedure. :) > Would require AI to do that right and AI is more often wrong then it is right in it's guesses on fuzzy stuff like topic of messages. So this certainly does not keep with your so proclaimed love of "KISS" (despite the fact that every suggestion you have made in this entire thread is anything but "simple"). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 11:25:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7E037E904 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:25:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x341.google.com (mail-wm1-x341.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::341]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFcsw0J5Vz4qmX for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:25:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x341.google.com with SMTP id f18so14397069wml.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:25:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5rwi2raFI1nwogNg8VNyoDrtmXq7J495p+9C0UcKbQk=; b=Pjzf815RhBrA9kX2rw/BJrLUxKTsUCN3PORRY9Tr/y+0yl+l77xtEieZfQ0+ECRCmr HDIa7bko1lEaBnqU2TMhPZGaCDBKCznDawag7NHNFMoQtG2WTWgzqKY6ytnTtruarEzb 0H6Wlct3eWzZVOUsiDYkPrjyq5fInMySWWweTS+zOfr7We8Cbj9b0QGXXg87a6FL1l1l a/EAXGYVvk/5C+ocuCL2Lk1hNwiart1+J/SqPgp7gXHExxfEo3LMk6VG5BEkOk0EZiDP YAxgst9mBLGLB/nSBlz5+kByb21BWtc5L5OEtcw92Wo55HBk3pL0FHtPwONjemp6kvM1 W/eQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Gba1RP9lmVSmou6Bx20kcTTOXQB4/S+yelvt8+39SOjgjFuq9 9kjKh1+vFZWyZtwkyr6l+2Ux26iL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwvRdfk2LazDFBfu5N4sWdBcAOJWnYoyk/lXenMk95lKSuOIe5AsAJKp+c3ThztR5WXzm/FhQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6845:: with SMTP id d66mr339468wmc.36.1595849105629; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.65.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5sm16565043wmk.9.2020.07.27.04.25.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:25:02 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727122502.2912b5ca@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20200727020921.92e951f7.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726213915.00772928e53bd4105872ee71@sohara.org> <20200727020921.92e951f7.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFcsw0J5Vz4qmX X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.65.254:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::341:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.484]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:25:09 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:21 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:39:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > The trouble is there really isn't anything else the OS can > > do because nobody ever thought to implement > > SIG_RELEASE_SOME_MEMORY_PLEASE which would probably be the ideal > > solution provided at least *some* programs responded to it. > > As you mentioned, it depends on the problem programs ("apps") to > actually receive and act upon such a signal. It's not implemented as a signal, but I gather that OS X has a message of that type. There is an incentive to support it as makes the process less likely to be killed. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 11:34:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31F637EC86 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:34:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c729c1.9a02f530dc1e3b7124ab4032b3d9459f@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFd4v72cFz4rBr for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:34:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c729c1.9a02f530dc1e3b7124ab4032b3d9459f@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595849680; x=1598441680; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; 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DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.10)[-1.099]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[googlemail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c729c1.9a02f530dc1e3b7124ab4032b3d9459f@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c729c1.9a02f530dc1e3b7124ab4032b3d9459f@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:34:40 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:25:02 +0100 RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:21 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:39:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > The trouble is there really isn't anything else the OS can > > > do because nobody ever thought to implement > > > SIG_RELEASE_SOME_MEMORY_PLEASE which would probably be the ideal > > > solution provided at least *some* programs responded to it. > > > > As you mentioned, it depends on the problem programs ("apps") to > > actually receive and act upon such a signal. > > It's not implemented as a signal, but I gather that OS X has a message > of that type. There is an incentive to support it as makes the process > less likely to be killed. Somehow I just knew it wasn't a new idea. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 11:39:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DA037EAF1 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:39:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFdBy4z6rz4rc4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:39:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id l17so16569686iok.7 for ; 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725162403.GA4721@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <7290c25a-aaf3-b864-0ed8-ec9558777681@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726213915.00772928e53bd4105872ee71@sohara.org> <20200727020921.92e951f7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200727122502.2912b5ca@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200727123426.ce15bc7c46df88145ba9c0be@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200727123426.ce15bc7c46df88145ba9c0be@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:39:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: RW , RW via freebsd-questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFdBy4z6rz4rc4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=TLBq0G8z; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.22 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.045]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.17)[-0.166]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[googlemail.com,freebsd.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:39:55 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:34 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:25:02 +0100 > RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:21 +0200 > > Polytropon wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:39:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > > > The trouble is there really isn't anything else the OS can > > > > do because nobody ever thought to implement > > > > SIG_RELEASE_SOME_MEMORY_PLEASE which would probably be the ideal > > > > solution provided at least *some* programs responded to it. > > > > > > As you mentioned, it depends on the problem programs ("apps") to > > > actually receive and act upon such a signal. > > > > It's not implemented as a signal, but I gather that OS X has a message > > of that type. There is an incentive to support it as makes the process > > less likely to be killed. > > Somehow I just knew it wasn't a new idea. > The problem of course if every program played nice there would be no need for OS's. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 11:55:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178BC37F91A for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:55:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic303-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic303-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFdXf3sjNz4stH for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:55:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: ybiTuNEVM1k7drAkpzKwqEKyAoxL3cxhEbNcbP9I1Eq2eHX95nkWMjYr80vMjoa xRNznC5uUFk2koHID1L89yQcotDY8xXw5HQpglO3.DFQ_JUecm.k12YggBwfeQG7014yd69cc1Iz wlc6a227mWhkDKspnR16za5XUFSbpWzMKl4NiRh.eQXlPXO4BtDwGn_pTj34up_j74Tb5AxcJ3_s 2NESOwN_TeaJUDxiG5NwWsgJ30fDAxlkkRg5hTwCZruk22MLiDwwVufctDlTBAkqXJFX8KZw3SEB sl1aH0Iu18_w_.KsGs46HgDHjPbozM3AH63cK3Rr4K5TDacmE_oxDYUIzeYuYkf_pAs0ja2dfXPk GnvVQDr88vnR.GcMfd1zu85rOEfYkun05.g79g4GUFkm.oFcKqlA1ecQ4bJwD5Jm4is9.Wiqx1Tr Nvpa45Oae.IW6Ych26QQDzEJcuJ0ySezv83dXWCX0ZjaWitQu9EW0m1G4U24LbQLinuxYRCQ_TXz 0pEWbsMvg6MXlHgxIuEaa2lQsmfOZ23bA7fuHet2IIHCTCG7yJq6A9udc7q6hSsFHdGTNpU1IfZD ZQ2TxW.1FQAHbb_XYGQaDrD2Cl2zgllbobFby3pcsDtZdsok.EeWjPGk7lQgB2dDuKiWbZjqCZ8D vQmaqnv_M1etE5Hopbm6hlOXBOCyMoQMmgC4qyKg1YAhmAhcmUbVUDgew2etKOqNqRDRtfdNTrKT TKMInGCsEiHUoyqcu43qacPfYi5XhP7fvEAYrwISuf5V7TYnrXD8KVni_GsWPfuvjj.FrACslglg 5Qz2uQR0OPgNXGtA2mOjNny1Yh3xv5clPPfDaZptss74oy2viSmwVwojJoHN1bpfdIn1S6kUEP5Z JrGu_U037OeSAcgvubDijuuGkotXLHcJ1jEc73_FgVXyAmVNtSN_T4oT7bo1zG9Gv87lrIucTrFf dSsVH96XMy3goQHM5MiN0GnVdrMrnCLV.sqclZvL3BpMlg2hH41c5lLA3RupWlNoFppHXt5x8s6D Y9jN1Qh7IrAKc6pAfMehBRt2DzMZ82i_clM_kqDioUpQ1ubiWLZKsd8E70oaRxM80MbuCMcZd3Py h.IRYsrak1b01xSaV0BlnlDMJ6.BBdAIYXxNW9wHiU_0a8d8wYExTLvjfZxKlFiSUMEZqhI4bzkh ew3T0rQ2kFKAMg38TaaMzDa2MvBM1a7dqSdxo_PHYX53AIjGbqBXWGsxxC.H3yepo3Cd8KX.UmBX jTzS3bj4qbGgFkaZwSlOX99GBsCfOXKRoNfM3TyDfQmWBVCPox8LzPy8yXABJHkHah4alM_qgD1N Ka0KcVxyd9BzM25rAXjQD1Vk6hzoOk57W65rphL4HR2MCQn.JD1BzHU979LrjBMcv9gwW5cY80_8 dMwkC2Ji5nfI9AWbgWQEmayaGfi.j Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:55:13 +0000 Received: by smtp404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 05e5b2e7bbcd23ec8262eddb7ff47e41; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:55:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id j19so9363354pgm.11 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:55:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531jWDuJnqTY60Iwbo6cx7Uh5wSGY0Cr31qsA0NdwH8ZRJQ2us0n j6R85O3XbPq60NFvME8HTsYQFr2LhJRxXB8lnqs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9hKOY1wL1eXuXANl+FzQHWhZrVQdSv96JoTvx6wN8WQ2objvz0jLKUgIBSAlL5VUjq6suKZf1n5tn4rRr2oA= X-Received: by 2002:a63:1b4b:: with SMTP id b11mr18721019pgm.243.1595850908802; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 04:55:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1595842242103.79959@citrix.com> <1595842414286.43801@citrix.com> In-Reply-To: <1595842414286.43801@citrix.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:54:52 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: how to reset login in freebsd if the password is expired To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16271 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFdXf3sjNz4stH X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.01 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.058]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.964]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.188.147:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.285]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.188.147:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:55:15 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 at 10:33, Jiang Xu wrote: > > ? > > > > ?support guys, > > > I set the root login to be expired in 90 days, and we forget to update th= e password of the login, and the password is expired, and now we can not lo= gin in on it? but we can access the disc with attach it to another instance= , is there any way to reset the expired password? https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/admin.html#idp4929752= 8 --=20 Ottavio Caruso A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 11:56:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E263837FAB3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:56:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c74b1e.3059d595f9794d89cc2b31413c613117@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFdZK3Zfjz4t3Z for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:56:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005c74b1e.3059d595f9794d89cc2b31413c613117@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595851002; x=1598443002; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; 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amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFdZK3Zfjz4t3Z X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=NdPJQkLF; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005c74b1e.3059d595f9794d89cc2b31413c613117@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005c74b1e.3059d595f9794d89cc2b31413c613117@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.78 / 15.00]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.06)[-1.055]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c74b1e.3059d595f9794d89cc2b31413c613117@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005c74b1e.3059d595f9794d89cc2b31413c613117@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.014]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[googlemail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 11:56:41 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:39:42 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:34 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > > > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:25:02 +0100 > > RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 02:09:21 +0200 > > > Polytropon wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:39:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > The trouble is there really isn't anything else the OS can > > > > > do because nobody ever thought to implement > > > > > SIG_RELEASE_SOME_MEMORY_PLEASE which would probably be the ideal > > > > > solution provided at least *some* programs responded to it. > > > > > > > > As you mentioned, it depends on the problem programs ("apps") to > > > > actually receive and act upon such a signal. > > > > > > It's not implemented as a signal, but I gather that OS X has a message > > > of that type. There is an incentive to support it as makes the process > > > less likely to be killed. > > > > Somehow I just knew it wasn't a new idea. > > > > The problem of course if every program played nice there would be no need > for OS's. It doesn't need every program to play nice - putting hooks in common libraries would go a long way. In the end though you're right there is nothing the OS can do about a process that keeps on grabbing more memory except kill it when it hits a limit. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 12:24:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD5D360D66 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:24:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x742.google.com (mail-qk1-x742.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::742]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFfBf5Dj6z4vkT for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:24:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x742.google.com with SMTP id l6so14969557qkc.6 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=taecj8xTKprbSysz/sEL28be7cSdAvL4YHAS5Cy+4aI=; b=efKeQ/CJfeKeft4Mc73tW4kK2h7ghNk3rR3bCWwdPvEeou/nP4isnmnwdccTGjp4HG Pvz/m9HifNXCs2sSl0wsJEBF6FCnXCw9ZbtE6WnTLTVoo1iPO6wwsMLn1aQPF+8rM7Bp TyCVLZLny4MnQ4t6RW1n1dK9g9k9LcOeVusFw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=taecj8xTKprbSysz/sEL28be7cSdAvL4YHAS5Cy+4aI=; b=OyLHaEcR4hePqPXAwjfU3/Pwg7rscpZhTqyldSU3E4jiDKPaWWf8brp/OjVPaL1NnY lHeoLlxlIjZmvvM9V80fL53SO7ZNkeV98Jg4StUbc7Tj8b+83CNJymS2dxIa6rf/NpkG 6MHQ0bOt1/q9W+T8Crtq4uTs6egHuJ3mXu170T7AYN85ZXHOLQQm9rpntL90dPZZOwxE bTRI1DJUxSGuQKyl41ObrDIyw7XkYZ/QkRfFRg1uMqmcjMRdIjeVIazahM4I8C6Vl9lt +bAWB948LGCB/6mYFt4VUifNXVvS+sMw+MNNnsju+YqnL2etyNhKKFgFVHB4gYr/40+F dmeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XydZQ4h+cDi8+uSAqIzopsEGTI3dyiF8hYQLhP5vtL3Qah3/+ ONXVt9ty5KdbpWBZ1XotGfJS8A7fzmM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKWmj3+ST6zGB0ErXVCtBcl5ApT/vsoYtSYnMo9kTg360Cdj2UARnM5rjTxvokMPwEk87j7Q== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4015:: with SMTP id n21mr20409631qka.240.1595852681033; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k48sm15251508qtc.14.2020.07.27.05.24.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFfBZ3mWHz1GnK for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:24:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:24:27 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/tIlj+eIdQOU7pyjdzpm_.ZE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFfBf5Dj6z4vkT X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=efKeQ/CJ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::742 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.01 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.721]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.968]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.30)[0.304]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::742:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:24:43 -0000 --Sig_/tIlj+eIdQOU7pyjdzpm_.ZE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:42:10 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 6:31 AM Jerry wrote: > >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:18:13 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: =20 >> >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 4:50 AM Roderick wrote: >> > =20 >> >> >> >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> >> =20 >> >> > All this being said there is a rash of *SOME* of the regular set >> >> > of =20 >> >> posters =20 >> >> > who say "FreeBSD is not designed for XYZ, don't use it for XYZ >> >> > use Linux instead" (this is not helpful and is nothing but >> >> > being a troll). =20 >> >> >> >> A completely acceptable answer. >> >> >> >> What is not acceptable, is, converting the mailbox of each of the >> >> (hundreds? thouthands?) members of the list into a chat room for >> >> small talk. >> >> >> >> For small talk is more appropriate the mentioned >> >> =20 >> > >> >Not according to the handbook's description of each list: >> > >> >-questions@: User questions and technical support >> >-chat@: Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community >> > >> >The questions being asked were by a user of FreeBSD and were >> >technical in nature (the technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux). >> >Here are the other possible lists and by their descriptions none of >> >them made sense for the subject matter of the OP's post: >> > >> >-advocacy@: FreeBSD Evangelism (the OP was not asking how to market >> >FreeBSD just defend it on technical grounds to upper management of >> >their org) -women@: Victor is not a very female name (enough said) >> > >> >There is no -smalltalk@ list and even if there was it would be a >> >misleading name since there is a programming language by that name. >> > >> >So the bottom line is @questions- is the best (and only) place for >> >such threads. If you want a new group, suggest one to the owners >> >of the freebsd mailing lists and see if you can make one. >> > >> >or the web forum =20 >> >> >> >> https://forums.freebsd.org =20 >> > >> > >> >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate >> >about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to >> >get the widest possible input. To quote "The mailing lists are the >> >most direct way of addressing questions or opening a technical >> >discussion to a concentrated FreeBSD audience." =20 >> >> In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new list, >> appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to insure a >> viable user base, follow the same procedure as the the regular >> FreeBSD questions list and allow postings sans any preregistration. >> =20 > >I am not the one suggesting it (please stop putting words in my mouth) >it is the person I was replying to that suggested it. You obviously suffer from a persecutory attitude. I simply replied to the post in the order I receive it. >> I belong to other forums where a similar technique is used to route >> messages to the appropriate message board. I assume it is >> technologically possible to implement that on FreeBSD. I know Linux >> and Microsoft boards that employ that procedure. :) >> =20 > >Would require AI to do that right and AI is more often wrong then it is >right in it's guesses on fuzzy stuff like topic of messages. So this >certainly does not keep with your so proclaimed love of "KISS" >(despite the fact that every suggestion you have made in this entire >thread is anything but "simple"). Not necessarily an AI. A dedicated moderator or perhaps two could easily handle the chore. It is not like they would have to filter tens of thousands of posts on a daily basis. From what I have been able to ascertain, that is the general procedure used on other boards. One, that appears to work quite well. Seriously, Aryeh have you ever considered that possibility that you suffer from a form of Oppositional Defiant behavior? --=20 Jerry Inter arma enim silent l=C4=93g=C4=93s=20 --Sig_/tIlj+eIdQOU7pyjdzpm_.ZE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8ex3sACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSAIQgAseZOsfF4KBpNtcj1JoU+QudXezfBVyTBRmqN8Zs07Vd5yoNriLMRJSfH ffcI0cPzIqafSFGRvuCCNTDB//RSbVjyYaSsSUB0OtIZPqyNyVfjImwBJ4UfTV+Z lK9zhkONOfJ/4sg2fwrtl+R/1h7/A91MAdIPvtk5StMeX3TswSytp8HZ/1mSqJ8Z NFLXwQjQJ5sfS0G+maU56dAA0s0vjvoFA6qK8BY9QnfMMRp8dTLSrK7Dvv+Z9e1p iWltUEAGk5vrg2BhgVHFQuyB8YqzCeigw4VHVIZtxdcreGeW3h0kyrzfrAxzuxm+ givxFJ7ZBJKPUjFGX50xHHfKFiV+iQ== =2vNv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/tIlj+eIdQOU7pyjdzpm_.ZE-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 12:50:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFFC361A1C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:50:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x141.google.com (mail-il1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFflv3RR6z3SBx for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:50:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x141.google.com with SMTP id r13so5862737ilt.6 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:50:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AHQ8DJANQ+9dvfQerdu8Y6YXE/9ZNufbPbWp9VOSwb8=; b=RGNhVHS+LLQJlLwM0OHjbXUjMzT2PPaumBJqQWs+mFnGZ2kC/2rD6RrjQz62nK2azO 1mQsqb8kqn1Fs3MV4zRBgfDoN2mNTQD7qWq8250hvSNnWav6VEwP7mzq0dEPYhmXfrIG 9z/P3IgjNTl0Him9wce1ZpSAgH+SqK07hn/wK3mkgZ4pKFfIasrH5fkXETk6icXxO1tn TeEzbZ944ecxCAOPIB4nMWFQXBmLfR7lFkNUxLVrdk56hfbMb2ay+3eP7prfJ33ajhc3 gW1rwhowQMdPG2IVs4xWcTOb4rrZ/rzKasv/wDWyow+l4SfX43x2aV8pFWrqX6hNwIm3 Kj1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=AHQ8DJANQ+9dvfQerdu8Y6YXE/9ZNufbPbWp9VOSwb8=; b=kJlC6A4LibRgKY4FuX2zANVK6RSgDAaY4POQF9UvyiIJmvhiTJCzpRdrC4Y6LD1BDf wsRtZyrf9Uk//ZeIOCfX3IjHelOXZEH3rBt/BK7SClsmC1sEujx5GeMfemGS3qN035QP oV4aSp6NgCULP2DrntAiD4QnOl6s+9QlJsCGhDHn460MFt2qLQQHWeykZKMQksGDcVU9 Op8tq7Fax2XJIUJ8J5spT75VYqHA5YrStfdx6pV9r/wKT8kePxUEv8TXDyeS/UhP1bCf zn59Eh0KFD9miIhSnKvl1aZ+IhxWa1waZmdR8IwWFj5CSBfzyJQYaMzAV1oUEQDKgbz0 btxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532qMGThuX1H6n5yHOSYQg9Q4Bq8xbpkngcvlpnrQe6L6GE5BGbg GMsGnzTa3GGKSXt75Sq99QiEHUUjGSjYeui9FFGmV1sz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9isTUgauP+k8gtgmX+1CdsqdlKsZNNTi+TpN4/v9LTfEmec39On2SX6UOzeM8cOfFfGS1RboAlgjSf+i8r0M= X-Received: by 2002:a92:b60a:: with SMTP id s10mr16704784ili.119.1595854202094; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:50:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:49:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFflv3RR6z3SBx X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=RGNhVHS+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.054]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::141:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.64)[0.643]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:50:04 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:24 AM Jerry wrote: > > >> >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to communicate > >> >about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless if you want to > >> >get the widest possible input. To quote "The mailing lists are the > >> >most direct way of addressing questions or opening a technical > >> >discussion to a concentrated FreeBSD audience." > >> > >> In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new list, > >> appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to insure a > >> viable user base, follow the same procedure as the the regular > >> FreeBSD questions list and allow postings sans any preregistration. > >> > > > >I am not the one suggesting it (please stop putting words in my mouth) > >it is the person I was replying to that suggested it. > > You obviously suffer from a persecutory attitude. I simply replied to > the post in the order I receive it. > I am quite sure that is not the case. You just don't know how to clearly state what you are replying to, instead you do so in a way that is (purposely?) unclear and thus imply stuff about someone who you obviously don't like (me) that may or may not be true (I never stated an opinion one way or the other). > Seriously, Aryeh have you ever considered that possibility that you > suffer from a form of Oppositional Defiant behavior? > A truly odd comment from someone who constantly recommends Linux on a FreeBSD mailing list after being told in the thread that the question is about FreeBSD *NOT* Linux! And then after being told that Linux is not a viable option still pushes the matter. Most of my blunt statements about the Linux idea (none of them were about you personally, where yours are very personal) were due to an attempt to show that Linux was a complete non-option in my case and that suggesting it was worse than useless (it was insulting). So a small personal question: tell me why I should listen to someone who doesn't even have enough courage in their convictions to leave their email address on an email they sent? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 13:15:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA4336231D for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:15:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFgKJ68S4z3TRp for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:15:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id r12so12999687ilh.4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:15:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:15:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200725182554.deffc63058a7c9f6d343ef06@sohara.org> <04df312d-9b2b-1873-2117-79a49e089bd9@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:15:19 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFgKJ68S4z3TRp X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=LtJ2wcol; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.053]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::131:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.65)[0.650]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:15:33 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:49 AM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:24 AM Jerry wrote: > [quote snipped] > So a small personal question: tell me why I should listen to someone who > doesn't even have enough courage in their convictions to leave their email > address on an email they sent? > I just noticed you did post your email address. I must of hit reply not reply all. But the sentiment of the question still stands in that your comments strike me as the pot calling the kettle black. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 14:40:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404C5364CF9 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:40:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFjCQ4FHMz3bJs for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:40:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931052E3C1; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:40:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BXtoRbOKOgE; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CCAF32E3B6; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:40:31 -0400 Message-ID: <2db162cbfe6ae47184d4685fbb4ddef8.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:40:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux From: "James B. Byrne" To: "Aryeh Friedman" Cc: "Valeri Galtsev" , "FreeBSD Mailing List" Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFjCQ4FHMz3bJs X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.78 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.03)[-1.026]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.033]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:40:35 -0000 On Sat, July 25, 2020 22:46, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Firefox, a terminal and a audio player (deadbeef) and thats it. 12 > logical cores [AMD Ryzen 5 2600] 24 GB of RAM with 6 GB of swap backed by a > 1 TB SSD. The only thing I can think of is there is a HTML 5 game that I > often leave open all the time (one of those hurry up and wait multiplayer > strategy/war freemium games [Forge of Empires]) and that slows it down but > almost anything else I do besides the above also slows it down (for example > libreoffice slows the entire machine to a crawl if you select a cell range > in calc for copy/pasting [you don't need to actually copy and paste > anything just select the region]). If I start mysql-server it makes the > machine go out to lunch if I am using the GUI at all. I have an identical > machine that I never use X or any GUI on that runs 3 VM's with one of them > being my mail/print/nfs/dns/etc. server and not a single performance issue > with any of the VM's or host. So the only possible conclusion I can draw > is it is X being extremely screwy on FreeBSD due to all the linux hacks in > it (this despite X's claim it will work on any POSIX machine with the right > video support). As we move more and more towards wayland as being the > pixel driver it gets worse. > > I run FreeBSD 12.1 on a ten year old desktop with 16 Gb RAM and a single Core 2 Quad. On this system I run my normal desktop environment (mate), develop and test software (Ruby on Rails), run environmental tests for various software deployments using iocage jails, run Poudriere builds, run network monitoring tool daemons, remotely administer servers in multiple cities, and generally do everything other than host production services. I used to run BHyve on it but the processor does not support all the instructions that BHyve on FreeBSD-12 now requires. The only time that I can recall having a response problem on this system was caused by Firefox, which in the recent past (c. March or April this year) had a nasty tendency to uncontrollably spawn multiple processes, relating to audio I believe but I cannot really recall what. This problem did not manifest itself in either Chromium or Opera. Until I uncovered what was causing the response issue it was intensely annoying. In any case the remedy was to manually kill the excess processes. Following a recent update, whether to Firefox, or Pulse Audio, or both, this problem has stopped recurring. Presently running on this system I have a working Samba AD domain with two DCs in separate jails, there is a LibreOffice Draw local document open on my desktop, there is a LibreOffice Calc remote document open which (for us) has an unusual number of macros, Firefox is running with nine tabs open and I am composing this message in a separate Squirrel Mail window, uTox chat is running, Jitsi softphone is open, gitk is running, pgAdmin3 is running, gvim has a remote file opened on one of our servers, Pluma has five files open, Nautilus has a webdav resource open, there are five Gnome terminal sessions connected to different local jails and remote hosts, and X-Term is running a terminal session on a mid-range minicomputer that runs an operating system that predates Unix. PS tells me that I have 83 processes running attached to terminal sessions and 200 processes running in total. Uptime says: [root@vhost04 ~ (master)]# uptime 10:33AM up 9 days, 23:35, 2 users, load averages: 0.44, 0.41, 0.36 I am not experiencing any detectable degradation in response time. The only idea I can come up with why you are experiencing difficulties with X11 in your setup is that you may have a DNS resolver issue, but from my point of view it appears unlikely that it is a problem inherent with FreeBSD itself. -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 16:17:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A6B366FFA for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:17:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x844.google.com (mail-qt1-x844.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::844]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFlMc0t2Bz3yxf for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x844.google.com with SMTP id 6so12658042qtt.0 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:17:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=IjNRMYiTaiv9y5qKNShGg+b22MtxgIz6ifBMYIowMNc=; b=Y/6kdn6N6WX+Th/bgc95rv3nJf3JC7+gvDzOnqVFAsi5HIuMs3W2KYAuXdrLkbqOMU ABojS2+sFBga/GtcPUgwx48RVBvQ1oQ1hXH+do+A6skYwpYGs1V4Iml6lLDzE617LwSw 9UEOg8DomsaRliIERp5mEfXhFrF2/bb7B9IA4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=IjNRMYiTaiv9y5qKNShGg+b22MtxgIz6ifBMYIowMNc=; b=KHtYhRjlrZjtXzqUHr7p53EhdayeIVjH0S0hQH6IxkmeZreuGw08TtnOVcoYWds2DM HkrkD4KGZVAMkTF31IDPUIIt2l3kvrMVDLLGw0p4SmkNX6ab/QtDUMCW5FyNm9MW53Y5 fv+AfyNUvQE0qhNRcaK5naoUgnakOuIvvKEqnDPzndKsYCE7R27xHQ9VQD4Z8f494YDU 1p2RcHvgAW9D0nCBPh5ykgXsKCNqvHa8jZwu0fX39FJPZ0y+DrGfZMFaAw31hIHExde1 MeTzVEknMnb0XyTr9TgtYDI+lPot4M4effAQiYILjcYFj6q0V9VudNiYWohT/wD7XSQp aBdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530snDPlaQg/KUYf5/51vGJ/2Di0ocm8n9ohDMJFiMonS6shTg18 +pwLpBIwBfAO+N4I6TkMZbiLbPlbVMQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXTCflFc/IV43pBoaETf1KeIGh21si54Og+tyDinIV1UGCoiL+FEsTxIm5O+ixyC7onBq+hA== X-Received: by 2002:aed:3b7a:: with SMTP id q55mr8521891qte.78.1595866666327; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t35sm16616733qth.79.2020.07.27.09.17.44 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFlMW0Fdnz1H1k for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:17:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:17:36 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/6pJdznEdHfxxWgitwd3014A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFlMc0t2Bz3yxf X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Y/6kdn6N; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::844 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.29 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.44)[-0.438]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.71)[-0.711]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.959]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::844:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:17:50 -0000 --Sig_/6pJdznEdHfxxWgitwd3014A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:49:50 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:24 AM Jerry wrote: > >> =20 >> >> >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to >> >> >communicate about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless >> >> >if you want to get the widest possible input. To quote "The >> >> >mailing lists are the most direct way of addressing questions or >> >> >opening a technical discussion to a concentrated FreeBSD >> >> >audience." =20 >> >> >> >> In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new >> >> list, appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to >> >> insure a viable user base, follow the same procedure as the the >> >> regular FreeBSD questions list and allow postings sans any >> >> preregistration.=20 >> > >> >I am not the one suggesting it (please stop putting words in my >> >mouth) it is the person I was replying to that suggested it. =20 >> >> You obviously suffer from a persecutory attitude. I simply replied to >> the post in the order I receive it. >> =20 > >I am quite sure that is not the case. You just don't know how to >clearly state what you are replying to, instead you do so in a way >that is (purposely?) unclear and thus imply stuff about someone who >you obviously don't like (me) that may or may not be true (I never >stated an opinion one way or the other). Wow, I neither like nor dislike you. You are not that important to me. You really do suffer from some for of paranoia. >> Seriously, Aryeh have you ever considered that possibility that you >> suffer from a form of Oppositional Defiant behavior? >> =20 > >A truly odd comment from someone who constantly recommends Linux on a >FreeBSD mailing list after being told in the thread that the question >is about FreeBSD *NOT* Linux! And then after being told that Linux is >not a viable option still pushes the matter. Most of my blunt >statements about the Linux idea (none of them were about you >personally, where yours are very personal) were due to an attempt to >show that Linux was a complete non-option in my case and that >suggesting it was worse than useless (it was insulting). So a small >personal question: tell me why I should listen to someone who doesn't >even have enough courage in their convictions to leave their email >address on an email they sent? I never recommended Linux over FreeBSD, or any other OS as a absolute. I DID and STILL do highly recommend using the OS, and obviously the applications associated with that OS, that offer the highest degree of performance for any particular task. Performance is a very subjective concept though. If your only need is to draw a straight line, you obviously do not need to run a CAD program; any ASCII based text program should suffice. For that reason, I would never use a 'chain saw' to miter a piece of crown molding. (I know that analogy probably goes over the head of many users here, but it was the best one I could come up with in a hurry). I have two screens on my desk, connected to two different PCs running different OS's. Each one is configured to meet my specific needs for the task that they are required for. I know, I have been told to use "Hyper-V" or some other virtual system; however, this works just fine for me, and if it ain't broke, I don't intend to fix it. With all the problems that seem isolated to your system, have you ever seriously considered doing a complete reformat of you PC, then reinstalling the OS and each piece of software piece by piece until you find out what the problem is, if there even is one. I am starting to think the problem you are fighting with is related to the PEBKAC principal. Oh, I got your apology. That sort of highlights my PEBKAC theory. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/6pJdznEdHfxxWgitwd3014A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8e/iAACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSB7gf9FQft+hy0psvQkBw/oQExPK05fNsYap72swJWaXeUxcuCH5pLj1Rvkswn kw1sqjZD+BEQjw+iYZa9LdrBPrV2Zf30VXv2QSz0N7Dos6MN8aHbpkIFlv7gIhXQ bTnzdjv7owhoBGdg4u7rrbz7+OiBQRCzjVanyu0c8SrZBJDiFcdGD5c0dob9cldH ua0qu70+p2i9+TUH1UHJywL9vWVMUPkEjTIw8NbqPMN8buZLEHq2s1IU29xPrc3g 9wGQTnf7PGs5RTnweoIlOzERc/e8KfuAyrATA2fD5Uv+o7pTyE1rR0bIxXz3UCSj hTHkNWa3oXXk13RY32ycGemyYWytgA== =Bxci -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/6pJdznEdHfxxWgitwd3014A-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 17:47:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DD436A142 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:47:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd42.google.com (mail-io1-xd42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFnMf3V5rz47T1 for ; 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:47:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200726063256.GA22924@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200726093909.ee5e14e643d31da4dad5c804@sohara.org> <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:47:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFnMf3V5rz47T1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=enFjVaTA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:47:59 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:18 PM Jerry wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:49:50 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:24 AM Jerry wrote: > > > >> > >> >> >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to > >> >> >communicate about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless > >> >> >if you want to get the widest possible input. To quote "The > >> >> >mailing lists are the most direct way of addressing questions or > >> >> >opening a technical discussion to a concentrated FreeBSD > >> >> >audience." > >> >> > >> >> In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new > >> >> list, appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to > >> >> insure a viable user base, follow the same procedure as the the > >> >> regular FreeBSD questions list and allow postings sans any > >> >> preregistration. > >> > > >> >I am not the one suggesting it (please stop putting words in my > >> >mouth) it is the person I was replying to that suggested it. > >> > >> You obviously suffer from a persecutory attitude. I simply replied to > >> the post in the order I receive it. > >> > > > >I am quite sure that is not the case. You just don't know how to > >clearly state what you are replying to, instead you do so in a way > >that is (purposely?) unclear and thus imply stuff about someone who > >you obviously don't like (me) that may or may not be true (I never > >stated an opinion one way or the other). > > Wow, I neither like nor dislike you. You are not that important to me. > You really do suffer from some for of paranoia. > > >> Seriously, Aryeh have you ever considered that possibility that you > >> suffer from a form of Oppositional Defiant behavior? > >> > > > >A truly odd comment from someone who constantly recommends Linux on a > >FreeBSD mailing list after being told in the thread that the question > >is about FreeBSD *NOT* Linux! And then after being told that Linux is > >not a viable option still pushes the matter. Most of my blunt > >statements about the Linux idea (none of them were about you > >personally, where yours are very personal) were due to an attempt to > >show that Linux was a complete non-option in my case and that > >suggesting it was worse than useless (it was insulting). So a small > >personal question: tell me why I should listen to someone who doesn't > >even have enough courage in their convictions to leave their email > >address on an email they sent? > > I never recommended Linux over FreeBSD, or any other OS as a absolute. > That contradicts your comments earlier in the thread: "If the user is going to run "X" with "KDE" for instance, FreeBSD is NOT the OS of choice.".... "You claim to be not interested in 100% compatibility and top performance and then bitch that you are not getting the results you expected under the environment you are operating it under." (BTW both where said *AFTER* I said I didn't care about either one very clearly *MULTIPLE* times)... you are still persisting in saying it when you claim using FreeBSD is not KISS for any use case that involves X (again after I presented just a use case in very concrete terms).. In short, make up your damn mind about what you are saying. Either you are saying there is nothing wrong with FreeBSD for my use case or your saying it sucks (you have said both in this thread). > I DID and STILL do highly recommend using the OS, and obviously the > applications associated with that OS, that offer the highest degree of > performance for any particular task. Performance is a very subjective > concept though. If your only need is to draw a straight line, you > obviously do not need to run a CAD program; any ASCII based text > program should suffice. For that reason, I would never use a 'chain > saw' to miter a piece of crown molding. (I know that analogy probably > goes over the head of many users here, but it was the best one I could > come up with in a hurry). > And as said above the application I use FreeBSD it is the best suited to my needs yet you refuse to accept that. > I have two screens on my desk, connected to two different PCs running > different OS's. Each one is configured to meet my specific needs for the > task that they are required for. I know, I have been told to use > I have a truelly KISS solution for that: a KVM switch they cost (depending on the video cable type) as little as $25 and as much as $120. ( https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=&cat=&Ntt=kvm+switch&searchButton=search) and if you need HDMI a HDMI switch ( https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=&cat=&Ntt=hdmi+switch&searchButton=search). Problem solved no need for some heavy weight solution like two complete I/O setups (likely a few hundred dollars that you didn't need to spend) or a VM (getting more horsepower then you need). BTW this is the exact solution I use for the same problem with the additional issue of living (working at home due to being a freelancer) in a small NYC apartment and thus not having infinite desk space. > "Hyper-V" or some other virtual system; however, this works just fine > for me, and if it ain't broke, I don't intend to fix it. > Nor is it as simple as possible even by your definition of simple. Bringing this up because you popoo'ed the KISS solution that works for me by the above quotes! > > With all the problems that seem isolated to your system, have you ever > seriously considered doing a complete reformat of you PC, then > reinstalling the OS and each piece of software piece by piece until you > find out what the problem is, if there even is one. I am starting to > think the problem you are fighting with is related to the PEBKAC > principal. > Done the above experiment 3 times on my current machine alone and thats how I can say without qualification that the performance for X has gotten worse I can even from memory tell you the exact procedure I use: 0. Download latest release snapshot 1. Erase existing (whole) drive with dd 2. Reinstall using automatic configuration/partitioning (UFS not ZFS since ZFS produces drives that are nearly impossible to physically move between machines) 3. Set the time and reboot 4. Manually set up networking by editing /etc/rc.conf and /etc/resolv.conf 5. svnlite co svn://svn.freebsd.org/base/releng/XX.YY /usr/src (currently 12.1) 6. cd /usr/src&&make -j 12 DESTDIR=/ world kernel&&etcupdate&&reboot 7. While make is running create a user account and add basic services like NFS (client), NIS and SSHD to /etc/rc.conf 8. Reboot 9. Manually mount NFS home dirs and add to fstab 10. Reboot 11. svnlite svn://svn.freebsd.org/ports/head /usr/ports 12. cd /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/portmaster 13. make install 14. rehash 15. cd /usr/ports 16. portmaster -d x11/nvidia-driver x11/nvidia-xconfig x11/xorg x11-wm/xfce4 www/firefox editors/libreoffice devel/aegis devel/fhist devel/cook archivers/tardy java/openjdk8 audio/deadbeef editor/vim www/tomcat9 java/icedtea-web 17. Edit /usr/local/sudoers 18. Add tomcat9 to /etc/rc.d 19. run nvidia-xconfig&&cp ~root/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf 20. Add nvidia-modeset_enable="YES" to /boot/loader.conf 20. Reboot 21. Login as the end user 22. Startx 23. END OF PROCEDURE (Note I do not consider this ***HARD*** at all, it is actually less work then getting a consumer OS like Windows or MacOS completely configured to my liking, and it is all 100% documented unlike attempting anything except the default install on Linux which almost always gets something wrong and you have to fiddle with it zero documentation or access to the sources due to using binary packages) As to performence if I can watch 4k/120 fps video in real time then there is zero problem with performence (any lack of performence in other apps is because of incompetent coding on the developers behalf). Given the fact I ditched my TV and FreeBSD with some help when it comes to getting the content (like mutlimedia/youtube_dl) over 5 years ago proves that it has performance as good as the best TV's out there. (What more could I ask for especially since I am using a 10 year old graphics card). > Oh, I got your apology. That sort of highlights my PEBKAC theory. > I would say your theory is correct but I think that the person who has the issue is you where you have completely missed everything that was said by me in the entire thread or misconstrued it into what you wanted it to mean not what I actually said. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 19:30:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED8B36CF5D for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:30:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFqdz47Zzz4Fk4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:30:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8DE0B36D12A; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:30:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA8436CF5C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:30:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFqdy2wdjz4G3f for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:30:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1595878228; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=NrH0qXUkQmhzT5Dsj1Yau065bRc=; b=G3XRZYrzgztslSr/b/KuGIGubh9ztzoL7iYIujd81Gz+VKjAcZMxwLI2mRHqb3L9 lfVYsQYj4Vgspy6rRZh31GGf214NjRBxIz8GPZ3uXqHdfdfmpy2oFv99EIz3eVKk a+z3sMqaQIfcLQa6vXhEmT7oPwpMtUjkfrAfe2gz4RZBKc8EGphi25TuM1YeFFsg X5xtRmEIxU/s/h2PJpB7jy8Zeem7psTazCSOVwoJmhBYUJ03MZCQ78U8OSkYL1oI AU3XsRZsGopkFvGrmgjki+QOG+LRWVRu30NNMV2W9xgItYKn67mLr+2oHIyxp+eF JrxGiX7iSbpLm/4/Mxq3Kg==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J+PUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=Yp35Wr_pfYTv2zd7t0gA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:13677] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 08/F5-42436-35B2F1F5; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:30:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:30:27 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: change in tcsh behavior X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFqdy2wdjz4G3f X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=G3XRZYrz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.71 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.024]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.577]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:30:31 -0000 Hello: After upgrading to: FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #0 r363470: Fri Jul 24 08:44:41 EDT 2020 amd64 tcsh behaves differently. In the old versiou, typing Ctl-t produced: load: 0.26 cmd: grep 10833 [getblk] 6.95r 0.05u 0.29s 1% 2528k Now I get: load: 0.26 cmd: grep 10833 [getblk] 6.95r 0.05u 0.29s 1% 2528k mi_switch+0x155 sleepq_switch+0x11a sleeplk+0x106 lockmgr_xlock_hard+0x3e5 __lockmgr_args+0x618 getblkx+0x13f cluster_read+0xc2 ffs_read+0x19f VOP_READ_APV+0x35 vn_read+0x1e8 vn_io_fault_doio+0x43 vn_io_fault1+0x16c vn_io_fault+0x1bb dofileread+0x81 sys_read+0xc0 amd64_syscall+0x140 fast_syscall_common+0xf8 Nice ... but not useful. Haven't found this documented. How do I go back to the old output? Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 19:39:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB8236D6B1 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:39:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x741.google.com (mail-qk1-x741.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::741]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFqrT3K84z4GMp for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:39:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x741.google.com with SMTP id b14so14714747qkn.4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:39:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=Y5tlt3har1S+e9TKkofi7959MqcEeXloGUbI3279ti0=; b=ou5hjDj/iQ6aSGzi0u44QeYOj2ECq7jsI60oj5vpSXzz8D+rYOJWECSQHIfTewlXtc vkjrv5L/M/+kjcG+BUwT3bHZb1a0zoBTRph3EkWAnLX2q9b5qrhwrhjX3OtVCDCCHnxK dymu1hhUbiU5xG7nR7ynLTRzuF0Qvqk0cCpFU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=Y5tlt3har1S+e9TKkofi7959MqcEeXloGUbI3279ti0=; b=drC9wfnO4TCTN3AUyzwRbin/pyioSWUyWNs9InkDWf7sU8ERjpETZSXSHM2d4KNhre IQrEO3WyitjqZek2vgNBku1mO3gYQM3OZPJ85Z4INFNB4fD5qoCCAc8uVkgIM1LsBvLJ ZSxTqL+Ym48tnLrkPf80aeRw0zPGi7jALC+g+vJqXVvb6zgsYIv5M8P2OikklACWKGSV VwiVP9sIPW3DR6Vtyb7hMlTIlXP0Pl/1cd9UgJ0YbcHo0sz3J+qMqxZ9Cj30c9KRByeb F459pPJRgU2j76dFo1WQLJ6cUsZB2fYNG2ipir3Sh74ZefvrZVq/4nHBHrQ+BRv4bYm0 uupg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330foCV0Kc2rCuks0ggjYCsM/4tli99ShLLWITZLT15lZ2M0op/ gRbjWpDTteLvBnX0GsTmUw04HqqlwJ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJztxcDCJgmxcaFMy4SmETbBLcvAqx+BWooD0iL7Mwnnr6DFI0v8W1DQVLijHbIyRwS0TecKWQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4d9:: with SMTP id 25mr19848464qks.411.1595878775713; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p17sm6187961qtn.15.2020.07.27.12.39.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFqrP00c7z1H9C for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:39:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:39:26 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/tOTtJDpaWkGuoWUsSBERABv"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFqrT3K84z4GMp X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=ou5hjDj/; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::741 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.46 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.05)[-0.049]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.924]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.967]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::741:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:39:38 -0000 --Sig_/tOTtJDpaWkGuoWUsSBERABv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:47:44 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 12:18 PM Jerry wrote: > >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:49:50 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: =20 >> >On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:24 AM Jerry wrote: >> > =20 >> >> =20 >> >> >> >The handbook says mailing lists are the prefered way to >> >> >> >communicate about FreeBSD so suggesting the forum is pointless >> >> >> >if you want to get the widest possible input. To quote "The >> >> >> >mailing lists are the most direct way of addressing questions >> >> >> >or opening a technical discussion to a concentrated FreeBSD >> >> >> >audience." =20 >> >> >> >> >> >> In keeping with my 'KISS' principal, why not simply start a new >> >> >> list, appropriately titled: "FreeBSD vs. Linux". In order to >> >> >> insure a viable user base, follow the same procedure as the the >> >> >> regular FreeBSD questions list and allow postings sans any >> >> >> preregistration. =20 >> >> > >> >> >I am not the one suggesting it (please stop putting words in my >> >> >mouth) it is the person I was replying to that suggested it. =20 >> >> >> >> You obviously suffer from a persecutory attitude. I simply >> >> replied to the post in the order I receive it. >> >> =20 >> > >> >I am quite sure that is not the case. You just don't know how to >> >clearly state what you are replying to, instead you do so in a way >> >that is (purposely?) unclear and thus imply stuff about someone who >> >you obviously don't like (me) that may or may not be true (I never >> >stated an opinion one way or the other). =20 >> >> Wow, I neither like nor dislike you. You are not that important to >> me. You really do suffer from some for of paranoia. >> =20 >> >> Seriously, Aryeh have you ever considered that possibility that >> >> you suffer from a form of Oppositional Defiant behavior? >> >> =20 >> > >> >A truly odd comment from someone who constantly recommends Linux on >> >a FreeBSD mailing list after being told in the thread that the >> >question is about FreeBSD *NOT* Linux! And then after being told >> >that Linux is not a viable option still pushes the matter. Most of >> >my blunt statements about the Linux idea (none of them were about >> >you personally, where yours are very personal) were due to an >> >attempt to show that Linux was a complete non-option in my case and >> >that suggesting it was worse than useless (it was insulting). So >> >a small personal question: tell me why I should listen to someone >> >who doesn't even have enough courage in their convictions to leave >> >their email address on an email they sent? =20 >> >> I never recommended Linux over FreeBSD, or any other OS as a >> absolute.=20 > >That contradicts your comments earlier in the thread: "If the user is >going to run "X" with "KDE" for instance, FreeBSD is NOT the OS of >choice.".... "You claim to be not interested in 100% compatibility and >top performance and then bitch that you are not >getting the results you expected under the environment you are >operating it under." (BTW both where said *AFTER* I said I didn't care >about either one very clearly *MULTIPLE* times)... you are still >persisting in saying it when you claim using FreeBSD is not KISS for >any use case that involves X (again after I presented just a use case >in very concrete terms).. > >In short, make up your damn mind about what you are saying. Either you >are saying there is nothing wrong with FreeBSD for my use case or your >saying it sucks (you have said both in this thread). I take back my original assessment of you, you are, in fact, dumb. There is absolutely no contradiction in what I said. Using FreeBSD for "X" and "KDE" is NOT the optimal setup. FreeBSD is simply NOT the optimal OS for that pairing. Now, if a user is not interested in or requires optimal performance, then that is their decision to make. FreeBSD is an excellent OS for use with Apache, Postfix (or other MTA), database programs like MySQL, etc. Again, I use, whenever possible, the best OS for the problem at hand. Only a fool blames his tool. I know FreeBSD sucks with KDE, but I don't spend all day here bitching like a little girl. I reserve that for a more appropriate forum. I know FreeBSD driver support is sub-optimal, but there is little that I can do about that. I am fully aware that Bug 237666 , that has existed since 11.x and has continued unpatched up to at least 13.x still exists. I only bring that up on different boards once every few months just to make sure that no one has forgotten about it. I am under no illusion it will be fixed in my lifetime. At least, not on purpose. Aryeh, at some point in life, you have to learn to accept life as it is. >> I DID and STILL do highly recommend using the OS, and obviously the >> applications associated with that OS, that offer the highest degree >> of performance for any particular task. Performance is a very >> subjective concept though. If your only need is to draw a straight >> line, you obviously do not need to run a CAD program; any ASCII >> based text program should suffice. For that reason, I would never >> use a 'chain saw' to miter a piece of crown molding. (I know that >> analogy probably goes over the head of many users here, but it was >> the best one I could come up with in a hurry). >> >And as said above the application I use FreeBSD it is the best suited >to my needs yet you refuse to accept that. If it is the best suited for your needs, why do you continue to bitch like a little girl? >> I have two screens on my desk, connected to two different PCs running >> different OS's. Each one is configured to meet my specific needs for >> the task that they are required for. I know, I have been told to use >> =20 > >I have a truelly KISS solution for that: a KVM switch they cost >(depending on the video cable type) as little as $25 and as much as >$120. ( >https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=3D&cat=3D&Ntt=3Dk= vm+switch&searchButton=3Dsearch) >and if you need HDMI a HDMI switch ( >https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=3D&cat=3D&Ntt=3Dh= dmi+switch&searchButton=3Dsearch). >Problem solved no need for some heavy weight solution like two >complete I/O setups (likely a few hundred dollars that you didn't need >to spend) or a VM (getting more horsepower then you need). BTW this >is the exact solution I use for the same problem with the additional >issue of living (working at home due to being a freelancer) in a small >NYC apartment and thus not having infinite desk space. I like utilizing two complete OS's. It suits my needs perfectly. And, it is extremely simple to setup. If you are happy with the KVM, that is fine with me. At least you are not crying about it every two seconds. >> "Hyper-V" or some other virtual system; however, this works just fine >> for me, and if it ain't broke, I don't intend to fix it. >> =20 >Nor is it as simple as possible even by your definition of simple. >Bringing this up because you popoo'ed the KISS solution that works for >me by the above quotes! It is simple for me, with the added bonus of "It Just Works". >> With all the problems that seem isolated to your system, have you >> ever seriously considered doing a complete reformat of you PC, then >> reinstalling the OS and each piece of software piece by piece until >> you find out what the problem is, if there even is one. I am >> starting to think the problem you are fighting with is related to >> the PEBKAC principal. >> =20 > >Done the above experiment 3 times on my current machine alone and >thats how I can say without qualification that the performance for X >has gotten worse I can even from memory tell you the exact procedure I >use: > >0. Download latest release snapshot >1. Erase existing (whole) drive with dd >2. Reinstall using automatic configuration/partitioning (UFS not ZFS >since ZFS produces drives that are nearly impossible to physically >move between machines) >3. Set the time and reboot >4. Manually set up networking by editing /etc/rc.conf and >/etc/resolv.conf 5. svnlite co svn://svn.freebsd.org/base/releng/XX.YY >/usr/src (currently 12.1) >6. cd /usr/src&&make -j 12 DESTDIR=3D/ world kernel&&etcupdate&&reboot >7. While make is running create a user account and add basic services >like NFS (client), NIS and SSHD to /etc/rc.conf >8. Reboot >9. Manually mount NFS home dirs and add to fstab >10. Reboot >11. svnlite svn://svn.freebsd.org/ports/head /usr/ports >12. cd /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/portmaster >13. make install >14. rehash >15. cd /usr/ports >16. portmaster -d x11/nvidia-driver x11/nvidia-xconfig x11/xorg >x11-wm/xfce4 www/firefox editors/libreoffice devel/aegis devel/fhist >devel/cook archivers/tardy java/openjdk8 audio/deadbeef editor/vim >www/tomcat9 java/icedtea-web >17. Edit /usr/local/sudoers >18. Add tomcat9 to /etc/rc.d >19. run nvidia-xconfig&&cp ~root/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf >20. Add nvidia-modeset_enable=3D"YES" to /boot/loader.conf >20. Reboot >21. Login as the end user >22. Startx >23. END OF PROCEDURE > >(Note I do not consider this ***HARD*** at all, it is actually less >work then getting a consumer OS like Windows or MacOS completely >configured to my liking, and it is all 100% documented unlike >attempting anything except the default install on Linux which almost >always gets something wrong and you have to fiddle with it zero >documentation or access to the sources due to using binary packages) > >As to performence if I can watch 4k/120 fps video in real time then >there is zero problem with performence (any lack of performence in >other apps is because of incompetent coding on the developers behalf). > Given the fact I ditched my TV and FreeBSD with some help when it > comes to getting the >content (like mutlimedia/youtube_dl) over 5 years ago proves that it >has performance as good as the best TV's out there. (What more could I >ask for especially since I am using a 10 year old graphics card). But is it a 72" curved flat screen with surround sound? I kind of doubt it. If it suits your needs though, that is all that matters. >> Oh, I got your apology. That sort of highlights my PEBKAC theory. >> =20 > >I would say your theory is correct but I think that the person who has >the issue is you where you have completely missed everything that was >said by me in the entire thread or misconstrued it into what you >wanted it to mean not what I actually said. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/tOTtJDpaWkGuoWUsSBERABv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8fLW4ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRNdgf+O/Nzg7NZjQtzpLDtohh6TyMvlfXoEmfJ2tikSjOLA8vY1DROcG//uLfn bk9XBzO1Yfg/pnKUx/zohQmoQbfKMoeOK1qf75ljRKm9aCfNHXaXwQGima8gjZOJ MEXgKz8YO4AbnNhu34XQxr1N6M2r4AeWB1p9Tc8i8moaKxoK93A8pmw+IsuUCuMF hCFIw3OHeg4OFwGiJXu0BNECWqWFaAXi6QDnSGXii5Rcq3lfpGPkLqgV0KiXHp4s O+eA4sC+vlUTB0NG91MId9wk8RqsD+vBgXrKJBIX2wBDzwkL72qvZriqmAK3foei 2cb2QRyx9dtEUBY+xGW18Ag6xkyWdw== =J+tC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/tOTtJDpaWkGuoWUsSBERABv-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 20:14:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD34836E6B4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 20:14:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd43.google.com (mail-io1-xd43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFrcf6MW1z4JBn for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 20:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd43.google.com with SMTP id s189so11107336iod.2 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=gi5aWkwYkG/3dm5YiK9a1qsvYzSHC3s2v8903Jz2RJ0=; b=Nna7G1InPUmJVlFSyab7V1fjODzgCh6BQw3qDSO1sX9FSjchCPyNmofazbnMbPgKE1 wEFi3Rbqxxh3ulWt6TFxCEmpHTNiyu4vL0ZCG9h0di1KUqx0lYE4ztbtfjQrFVhJ4kCZ PhypJRiDOTlVDZD6z1ieXJ1CRrMT5gVOqk11DW1/atMJEqbkBGb2d1LS54nafY8bKnWk TAbYQTMzeXafg8Mx4k5ccIQ5th7z5KkobJyQJJrQ9Dkf+gLh5HKmbyqvUBp3ppEYigO4 IppMFEEqIaTbrQcCiEOs/uLSse61N+dBDrNgeQ+zlLKW8rpQGyZoUrXEFkP7srj8ct2q /a2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=gi5aWkwYkG/3dm5YiK9a1qsvYzSHC3s2v8903Jz2RJ0=; b=osExoTz+/+T1gkvLuALr7rzP0yOndPh+c8ATr+KKHUer6q4hT9VAWslbOfGkOW6OX2 1OaqZE1tLXsunqJpMWdFRZXngB3GO0FndcCPm16Fcq94Vw6RyUfbABW9vtJJLSul+wj3 O8kMaGcfujGG7ZkriTx2rstXS0AwfPAqgU6zAce7vDSF7dMFBC8suTYRcWvqTwGsccQj ci4ORjq4m0gkJF4qtz3URXwWcVgvZelqfBEWOd1ES4j+V945TFkbrKT6RVFlB1grxUp/ y5Rblcr7NNrx63bsvuFQ0vOazhE3pOPJMKwIeVi7rj8TD9Uw4JWGc1wIw2X9XmGkHVvJ j9gQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532eEnh3nXNiyfv1CSIvsyMV2faqdZhuiF0zaQTGRa9rn9JkMVHs AiGXBBzpVY98a5cuk8XGKGXzhhIaZs/RQbgvBvBfXkh8ihY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx2vEvD6aXZxPIEzWif5g8UGlBHYVZ34heUnHGxRUZgmULPO7OxnFfRbJmiYBFZVzsSfTWvotCgq4+RCDgx31c= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c815:: with SMTP id y21mr24876660iof.83.1595880865223; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200726151835.GA35966@admin.sibptus.ru> <27ca8c6c-6b06-6ad4-7af0-2b88f51a3856@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:14:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFrcf6MW1z4JBn X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 20:14:27 -0000 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 3:39 PM Jerry wrote: > I take back my original assessment of you, you are, in fact, dumb. > I will revise my assessment of you. You were *NEVER* attempting to be helpful. You were just simply being a complete and total jerk each reply and purposely so I might add. I have been doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt and thinking that you just didn't know how to be polite but with a comment like that I can only conclude that you are purposely being a jerk. Calling you a troll is too polite of something to say. I highly suggest you at learn how to be diplomatic (all attempts to be diplomatic to you are completely and totally lost) There is absolutely no contradiction in what I said. Using FreeBSD for > "X" and "KDE" is NOT the optimal setup. FreeBSD is simply NOT the > optimal OS for that pairing. Now, if a user is not interested in or > requires optimal performance, then that is their decision to make. > You made a blanket statement regardless of the use case (while other people like Steve O'Hara actually helped solve *SOME* of the issues I was dealing with in my config the only advice you had was "you are an idiot for even attempting it on FreeBSD" [paraphrased]). Since it was clear from my use case I was not going to switch OS then why waste your breath at all attempting to convince me or anyone else to unless you are just being a jerk (and a troll)? Either be a part of the solution or shut the hell up (just saying "XYZ is wrong" is not being helpful). > FreeBSD is an excellent OS for use with Apache, Postfix (or other MTA), > database programs like MySQL, etc. Again, I use, whenever possible, the > best OS for the problem at hand. Only a fool blames his tool. > If you had actually read the use case I outlined a few messages ago you would of seen doing development on those tools *IS* my use case and thus FreeBSD is the right tool! (and no I am not made out of money and thus not going to by one machine for each micro use I have, besides I am too much of a environmentalist to waste electricity like that). > I know FreeBSD sucks with KDE, but I don't spend all day here bitching > like a little girl. I reserve that for a more appropriate forum. I know > FreeBSD driver support is sub-optimal, but there is little that I can > do about that. > > I am fully aware that Bug 237666 > , that has > existed since 11.x and has continued unpatched up to at least 13.x > It is not my fault you bought a messed up mother board and refuse to be a part of the solution in fixing it. This is not a general issue with 12.X and you said you self you refused to help fix it because "dell refused to give you the hardware to test on" (I wonder if this makes you screaming like a little girl like you accuse me of being when in fact I have been an active helper and tester in every PR I have filed: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?email2=aryeh.friedman%40gmail.com&emailreporter2=1&emailtype2=substring&list_id=368491&query_format=advanced ) > still exists. I only bring that up on different boards once every few > months just to make sure that no one has forgotten about it. I am under > no illusion it will be fixed in my lifetime. At least, not on purpose. > > Aryeh, at some point in life, you have to learn to accept life as it is. > And I do accept it as is and thas why I make my tools work the way they are supposed to work in the way I use them and refuse to accept "not the right use" as a valid reason not to use something. > > >> I DID and STILL do highly recommend using the OS, and obviously the > >> applications associated with that OS, that offer the highest degree > >> of performance for any particular task. Performance is a very > >> subjective concept though. If your only need is to draw a straight > >> line, you obviously do not need to run a CAD program; any ASCII > >> based text program should suffice. For that reason, I would never > >> use a 'chain saw' to miter a piece of crown molding. (I know that > >> analogy probably goes over the head of many users here, but it was > >> the best one I could come up with in a hurry). > >> > >And as said above the application I use FreeBSD it is the best suited > >to my needs yet you refuse to accept that. > > If it is the best suited for your needs, why do you continue to bitch > like a little girl? > Why do you continue to give a flying F? If it is not your use case and/or you have nothing useful to say in helping to make it work shut up! > >> I have two screens on my desk, connected to two different PCs running > >> different OS's. Each one is configured to meet my specific needs for > >> the task that they are required for. I know, I have been told to use > >> > > > >I have a truelly KISS solution for that: a KVM switch they cost > >(depending on the video cable type) as little as $25 and as much as > >$120. ( > > > https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=&cat=&Ntt=kvm+switch&searchButton=search > ) > >and if you need HDMI a HDMI switch ( > > > https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=&cat=&Ntt=hdmi+switch&searchButton=search > ). > >Problem solved no need for some heavy weight solution like two > >complete I/O setups (likely a few hundred dollars that you didn't need > >to spend) or a VM (getting more horsepower then you need). BTW this > >is the exact solution I use for the same problem with the additional > >issue of living (working at home due to being a freelancer) in a small > >NYC apartment and thus not having infinite desk space. > > I like utilizing two complete OS's. It suits my needs perfectly. And, > it is extremely simple to setup. If you are happy with the KVM, that is > fine with me. At least you are not crying about it every two seconds. > You are assuming I am using nothing but FreeBSD... wrong! first you might even look at the website in my signature where I walk you through setting up linux on an older version of bhyve (circa 2014), I currently run two windows machines as VM's and linux when ever I need to test on it (and/or I want to be tortured). > >> "Hyper-V" or some other virtual system; however, this works just fine > >> for me, and if it ain't broke, I don't intend to fix it. > >> > >Nor is it as simple as possible even by your definition of simple. > >Bringing this up because you popoo'ed the KISS solution that works for > >me by the above quotes! > > It is simple for me, with the added bonus of "It Just Works". > But yet you popoo'ed out of spite and spite only. I never said your set up was wrong just showing that it (depending on use case) does not meet the simplest possible requirement you brag about. I only did so to show that you're being a hypocrit. > >> With all the problems that seem isolated to your system, have you > >> ever seriously considered doing a complete reformat of you PC, then > >> reinstalling the OS and each piece of software piece by piece until > >> you find out what the problem is, if there even is one. I am > >> starting to think the problem you are fighting with is related to > >> the PEBKAC principal. > >> > > > >Done the above experiment 3 times on my current machine alone and > >thats how I can say without qualification that the performance for X > >has gotten worse I can even from memory tell you the exact procedure I > >use: > > > >0. Download latest release snapshot > >1. Erase existing (whole) drive with dd > >2. Reinstall using automatic configuration/partitioning (UFS not ZFS > >since ZFS produces drives that are nearly impossible to physically > >move between machines) > >3. Set the time and reboot > >4. Manually set up networking by editing /etc/rc.conf and > >/etc/resolv.conf 5. svnlite co svn://svn.freebsd.org/base/releng/XX.YY > >/usr/src (currently 12.1) > >6. cd /usr/src&&make -j 12 DESTDIR=/ world kernel&&etcupdate&&reboot > >7. While make is running create a user account and add basic services > >like NFS (client), NIS and SSHD to /etc/rc.conf > >8. Reboot > >9. Manually mount NFS home dirs and add to fstab > >10. Reboot > >11. svnlite svn://svn.freebsd.org/ports/head /usr/ports > >12. cd /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/portmaster > >13. make install > >14. rehash > >15. cd /usr/ports > >16. portmaster -d x11/nvidia-driver x11/nvidia-xconfig x11/xorg > >x11-wm/xfce4 www/firefox editors/libreoffice devel/aegis devel/fhist > >devel/cook archivers/tardy java/openjdk8 audio/deadbeef editor/vim > >www/tomcat9 java/icedtea-web > >17. Edit /usr/local/sudoers > >18. Add tomcat9 to /etc/rc.d > >19. run nvidia-xconfig&&cp ~root/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf > >20. Add nvidia-modeset_enable="YES" to /boot/loader.conf > >20. Reboot > >21. Login as the end user > >22. Startx > >23. END OF PROCEDURE > > > >(Note I do not consider this ***HARD*** at all, it is actually less > >work then getting a consumer OS like Windows or MacOS completely > >configured to my liking, and it is all 100% documented unlike > >attempting anything except the default install on Linux which almost > >always gets something wrong and you have to fiddle with it zero > >documentation or access to the sources due to using binary packages) > > > >As to performence if I can watch 4k/120 fps video in real time then > >there is zero problem with performence (any lack of performence in > >other apps is because of incompetent coding on the developers behalf). > > Given the fact I ditched my TV and FreeBSD with some help when it > > comes to getting the > >content (like mutlimedia/youtube_dl) over 5 years ago proves that it > >has performance as good as the best TV's out there. (What more could I > >ask for especially since I am using a 10 year old graphics card). > > But is it a 72" curved flat screen with surround sound? I kind of doubt > it. If it suits your needs though, that is all that matters. > I don't have room for such a monitor but I have set one up with the identical setup above for a friend that lives in the burbs and does have room for it and it worked perfectly with good performance on the first try. Stop making assumptions you can't support about what different OS's can do and can't do. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 21:12:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8534F36FC56 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mpp302@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFsvP29pLz4MG0 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mpp302@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 4AA1136FB6B; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:12:17 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495A636FFE0 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mpp302@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-f50.google.com (mail-ed1-f50.google.com [209.85.208.50]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFsvN3lmGz4LvG for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:12:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mpp302@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ed1-f50.google.com with SMTP id b13so10795343edz.7 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:12:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=28kxvIMaYxI0+wPCgMsAqc2WQKeibKDApuc+RM1b6qE=; b=Kh1wdZaQkoPE8KasWv5qfb+Bd6DN8mfRbYHoyHWBrEEJ0y3Uzm/11umnk0r13MhZcb 8H6yR7umk6XI2MPFEm4iF/AMg7aZkve5xP34j4327EDpPxpZc9Z3JB0VDslDUpX0NSTw mJgqJzvaym0nArR7uytbKY5XKxu9fg31M0OIk+7kJpMUsXqDysRiVFrJm3czx4udgNqQ 2dWGzMaLeno0FTJZN9qM/zuEJB/NltN75tcZG3EKuEWWb1Q35Df1PhnqGW7M+OyB+nn3 F4a6xRSacFApDPpLRcVgcSm8kG7XO2QVNuVaG/qRTAYo3LrJyHBH8GAiyyPVsIdVHbEB 5Saw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DeT9ZT7o8fFP+nmra0WKg26C2+sK+z2phoe2rgcuU23HDhYzN /z4qhQIWhvo87+9bYfyNCtFCn/rB X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxOh99OLf6wZawnP4B20pEwvQBuEncMQZZyMnUbiyye+SMZAFwtqZpjlMbK+JE04tTnRe44Jw== X-Received: by 2002:a50:ec90:: with SMTP id e16mr6242016edr.234.1595884334294; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a02:8109:98c0:1bc0:5e5f:67ff:fef4:ffd8? ([2a02:8109:98c0:1bc0:5e5f:67ff:fef4:ffd8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q7sm7688752ejo.22.2020.07.27.14.12.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior To: Robert Huff , questions@freebsd.org References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:12:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFsvN3lmGz4LvG X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mpp302@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mpp302@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.911]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.47)[-0.473]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.208.50:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[0mp@FreeBSD.org,mpp302@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.208.50:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[0mp@FreeBSD.org,mpp302@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:12:17 -0000 Hi, On 7/27/20 9:30 PM, Robert Huff wrote: > Hello: > After upgrading to: > > FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #0 r363470: Fri Jul 24 08:44:41 EDT 2020 amd64 > > tcsh behaves differently. > In the old versiou, typing Ctl-t produced: > > load: 0.26 cmd: grep 10833 [getblk] 6.95r 0.05u 0.29s 1% 2528k > > Now I get: > > load: 0.26 cmd: grep 10833 [getblk] 6.95r 0.05u 0.29s 1% 2528k > mi_switch+0x155 sleepq_switch+0x11a sleeplk+0x106 lockmgr_xlock_hard+0x3e5 __lockmgr_args+0x618 getblkx+0x13f cluster_read+0xc2 ffs_read+0x19f VOP_READ_APV+0x35 vn_read+0x1e8 vn_io_fault_doio+0x43 vn_io_fault1+0x16c vn_io_fault+0x1bb dofileread+0x81 sys_read+0xc0 amd64_syscall+0x140 fast_syscall_common+0xf8 > > Nice ... but not useful. > Haven't found this documented. > How do I go back to the old output? Set sysctl kern.tty_info_kstacks to 0. See man termios for more details. Cheers, Mateusz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 23:06:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5400372286 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:06:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFwQj5D92z4ShD for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:06:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B10E6372285; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:06:05 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBBC372087 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:06:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFwQh1RJtz4SSv for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1595891162; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=LnKA2/EFdIU4ljb6yKZ1xgJ6+KY=; b=dNM9rDDohaj7r8IDLhHo1cHV5rxc8dY5xOPBPfIRITfg6hNWeDfkFweCRKTp6MCb 9z1B/bCH1nOF+VuMPeQEd+Y2O2VSPHFU7q8/U+ZVjkZlSW/W59YwgTRfCWuEg1wo s+2WMppoUbBpebr5/Y6mU7WlpyazXhZyke2GeqPBQKDu6eutvBuLVcxMBdnMPUOF a0giWmgz3j8kgs6Gl6Zbg/2ffEKoVrj41PeWU2ityBXeNXtyIsgfFl/IE/xAHzAP DpFmIjIxL8VQ4IZB8C/LKnKlS6W+k/V5VSQS3w20QZNh7JIPp1oOppcBB/SUeyom GLCZjb+R1ZuL2j3rkp+qLw==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J+PUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=TWKw-Je7QdYDusu2c1EA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:36300] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 8D/0B-42436-ADD5F1F5; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:06:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:06:01 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior In-Reply-To: References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFwQh1RJtz4SSv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=dNM9rDDo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.81 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.015]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.031]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.664]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:06:06 -0000 Mateusz Piotrowski writes: > > Now I get: > > > > load: 0.26 cmd: grep 10833 [getblk] 6.95r 0.05u 0.29s 1% 2528k > > mi_switch+0x155 sleepq_switch+0x11a sleeplk+0x106 lockmgr_xlock_hard+0x3e5 __lockmgr_args+0x618 getblkx+0x13f cluster_read+0xc2 ffs_read+0x19f VOP_READ_APV+0x35 vn_read+0x1e8 vn_io_fault_doio+0x43 vn_io_fault1+0x16c vn_io_fault+0x1bb dofileread+0x81 sys_read+0xc0 amd64_syscall+0x140 fast_syscall_common+0xf8 > > > > How do I go back to the old output? > > Set sysctl kern.tty_info_kstacks to 0. That did it. Thanks. Umm ... is there a reason this isn't the default? Curiously, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 23:18:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AF1372477 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:18:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lonnie@outstep.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFwhY2N7Yz4Stp for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:18:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lonnie@outstep.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id t15so9904036iob.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=rKK88zw1Bh5MnqsjsKv0X4F4nwYuZ7d5EgvzU4L2OrE=; b=XxwI6tVgZZjXalrxsTHoNfxg2FkQa/V/bEq4TfixcQCscboWNmmdxn8dZcBindr+xY tOoA3CrSuzZkpDkQTNSuy890od91fqfvtZiiQUEOXqn/Aw5HjhO9egyZf8KsDMAfpRfx rkgN0AqbRGxXJKSzDRHEXldn5JCN1Q1rgtVZQA3kau4F0nttGkCopQHa4I+iGvh+LBQI QRDzhA0/b1KFzEMN+62BCnE5p7ZWWhlIEPdTW2VTBLSPrwK6fK+7GL5+G3CWafxtC3pd gw51zngI5Qrrl/EIiujpnb74e3r9tgmRPLqXp5uyzeqp2XSh6ivd2UkRtMhbbLbxh7f0 9eZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=rKK88zw1Bh5MnqsjsKv0X4F4nwYuZ7d5EgvzU4L2OrE=; b=I8wx1USR90e56ayVZr3/WgPcJCrzd4h4H8EXpEWOqPdna9J5/iYpfzeiIiikbuSNhj pbNBhXbJLVq6IIpwcpi/GG8jbuj6mWbzmFc7Hw/3GcV4ItmYbLZUti93CvsRlocQtUCQ ZJiD9zz8UG6Uau5sajAh0VMSkcC4NasZmQaQPI+HkIL2RDjN7SMivSGfKCz9RPYlZh5o I5yCmhaYJ9zUsRAzXYVAR8qflQTqX1GeKlVF7zNAR6ditu7mVIjbV1Wn7JAAeRf9zCzK U2v/PyFDnG4yaWrr+2uAsqde0V3KzG6TZiZGJ8TqrqL+ZrZ5IYsSTeIhDynax5D3PI/t cKuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316jh6E2hrve1weCxI+umfYDesB3SmNHRMSGdBv9wu/ye7CjMB5 AnCEHTbztx+3TVEk+h9QbCQUOCbCeJO13uW2ubaIstnnKfQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5qQMsLhIlizQVsv06/prP/eUqSFSBtkQH0OufhHO3t7tsLyGkCvpXbhsQyki6DXk38sDwPdyBhUs9w8ynFdo= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8d03:: with SMTP id p3mr8694517iod.114.1595891883020; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:18:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Lonnie Cumberland Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:17:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: how to make pkg ignore some dependencies? To: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFwhY2N7Yz4Stp X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=XxwI6tVg; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=outstep.com (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of lonnie@outstep.com) smtp.mailfrom=lonnie@outstep.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.40 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.06)[-0.059]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.900]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[outstep-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.24)[-0.238]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[outstep.com : No valid SPF, DKIM not aligned (relaxed), none] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:18:07 -0000 Hello All, Hope that everyone is doing well today. Lately, I have been working with various packages from the FreeBSD 12.1 package system and noticed something interesting. I can do "pkg install xorg-minimal" which installs about 63 packages and have noticed that if I do a "pkg fetch -d -o /some/path xorg-minimal" then I can get all of the packages downloaded. Then, when I look through all of the download packages, I can notice that some of them are not truly required for a minimal installation of Xorg. (i.e. llvm80, py37, perl, etc..) I also notice that the "xorg-minimal.txz" package, itself, is really just a small meta-package in this case and am trying to determine where it lists the dependencies that make up the 63 packages that it wants to download. With this in mind, I would like to find out if there are some settings that can be used with the "pkg" command such that I can tell it to leave out some of the packages that it wants to download and install? Or, is there some place that I can find out how the xorg-minimal package is set up so that I can create maybe a new package called "xorg-ultra" or something that leaves out the unnecessary packages? I am looking at freshports to see if that helps also, but still investigating all of this. Cheers, Lonnie From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jul 27 23:29:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B233726EC for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:29:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFwy21yFKz4Ttc for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:29:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.203.242]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MQNAv-1kD4aM0RvN-00MJbt for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:29:43 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:29:42 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200728012942.2157eb85.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> References: <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:XVuAUFSs6vGIKy33XidyKKkbnlTEH8qkCR/kioq4kH/hsvkUcgn Z310nILWv9oi5Vuxknu4Z+ENJopOmD0eFJs2IrkY6i0tD/B6JZHDLhURpBg6IwQwmcHtD93 +HrNIYjCDanAD4n4ZL5p0I4bsiA30j+C+JkYivYAW3LZVytLvCLb9R9OoXrERIuQobJoBFC ycWNP2O3PVNibKmbjhcJg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:9z+Ms5MD38I=:vnKscH6IVorzzApvl8MCGM Hv0qvOqzc07zlGIwCBtElv+x4M8CLUqEuNyr/qkPbvqZ6Ski9yAKdhG35bQfe0CJcka7jYHge 5UhsIpiWL71EIsfjcUvBzm79bJuDZGs0LIa+EgJ3qaxw4Jm7/j+hNzwkPt43kAkbVFc+7wq3g wkBqY8FiT2nY32dMVphOLP/m0bS62IOgC3a6yUrEpINhrk9NBQ6EPwMXnTWnKee7SsLREN4Cm W9GafRUD4iRhH7bMkdjQKXH8lYth1/LLg+RJvxxpmKALRK/TB6fPkPZZAbe9l4rQbbv0rjmKM rM8t3WI8nDbtWifIoIgxDRiQeiQmkr4Wr8lt7vXZPrv/WgnfTOaWUbWOjnvK2QOWNqYQH1zk9 uj6Cz4WEv/6Wot+QPZaTP5xI6DrWNUf6MW+coFsWtbW/4v6mOHyripyrTO0qKgZmEuEAoRWDr b815X0Fgj1BZInPTH4Cm01RtC3VHVL8ynIrGnporja0fAeHh1k4nTgy4Y2nN/whxCP0Fae3Y5 U/Y9+0HdBIwEA+AsJRSxS1POpilh4b5AQ/PuLD2/L+E+UWPsDLEzZq0Hql4kwd87wQ6ZgiOD7 +XDKplm3zxZs91TN0/BEWU7e69pDoeXTSYcB+z+MBW65NNaWOJ0e4UzXm8XRDQwawcPmu1AEg f0K5ns+2wdbiq3/DNveZu5oIgpJDNscIk10+ZeSVGdredc/koUMLhtDLja5zswzxFdAVua+X8 R8QuN7a/GgUkYfOmaQMQOr1CaAJaJs/48ojKkROYcOxl/P+aloVdHXZ3J8lN0xe7UKlmwyfhK 2AFaTgpxqJgtWubGBdIgPowAKDO4DLU/oKwgLmEg79HUHqMEnOePpP3uk8FqHm7zDvdw0mb X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFwy21yFKz4Ttc X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.51 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.281]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.203.242:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.53)[0.534]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.85)[0.853]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:29:47 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:39:26 -0400, Jerry wrote: > There is absolutely no contradiction in what I said. Using FreeBSD for > "X" and "KDE" is NOT the optimal setup. FreeBSD is simply NOT the > optimal OS for that pairing. Now, if a user is not interested in or > requires optimal performance, then that is their decision to make. Using FreeBSD + X + KDE does not have to be less performant than a comparable solution. Take for example the port "mkdesktop" which delivers an "almost Linux-like completeness" of KDE for FreeBSD. However, I agree that you have a certain point: The "out of the box experience" of KDE on FreeBSD isn't nearly as complete and integrated as it is on Linux. Why? Because KDE is developed on and primarily intended for Linux. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this creates specific problems whose origin is simply admitting that FreeBSD != Linux, and that's it. You maybe do remember how PC-BSD (later TrueOS, now discontinued) started? They took FreeBSD + X, added KDE, added custom tolls to be able to configure FreeBSD from within KDE, added a KDE-based package manager for their PBI system. Neither was this less performant than a Linux distribution targeting KDE at that time, on the same or comparable hardware. You see: It was possible. And it is still possible. Of course you are right when you now argue that this requires time to set up. That's absolutely correct, and you (as the user) have to decice if this is worth your time, which might be money you're losing. There is a quite simple consideration: Am I happy with what another OS delivers me as a preinstalled and preconfigured desktop? Does it fit my needs? Does it fulfill my requirements? If yes, I'll probably just use that. But maybe do I need a custom-taylored solution that maps to a workflow no "out of the box experience" can cope with? Is this an O(1) action, i. e., I set it up _once_, then keep using it? If this boosts my performance, then I'll probably take the time to do that work. On FreeBSD, an OS which does not include (or come with) one specific desktop environment, the user can choose. > FreeBSD is an excellent OS for use with Apache, Postfix (or other MTA), > database programs like MySQL, etc. Again, I use, whenever possible, the > best OS for the problem at hand. That is the most natural, the most educated, and the most obvious thing to do. > Only a fool blames his tool. Any bad craftsman blames his "bad" tools. :-) > I know FreeBSD sucks with KDE, but I don't spend all day here bitching > like a little girl. I reserve that for a more appropriate forum. FreeBSD does not suck with KDE. Please don't generalize, it's simply not true. I mentioned the existing restrictions, but maybe they don't matter to you (i. e., you don't need a KDE- based interface to /etc/rc.conf, so it's not a problem that there is none). Again, let me emphasize that the more modern and advanced KDE gets, the bigger the gap originating from FreeBSD != Linux gets visible to the user. It doesn't matter that there are claims like "any POSIX-compliant source can be compiled on any POSIX-compliant system and will produce a comparable result" - it doesn't apply here because of the heavy accumulation of stacks of libraries of abstraction of libraries of stacks of interfaces of libraries of libraries of kernel calls. ;-) Expecting (!) a default KDE installation on FreeBSD to work just like on Linux is a case of "blame the tools", in my opinion. If you want a "just works" solution, Linux is often the way to go, except, of course, you actually need FreeBSD, which Linux obviously isn't. > I know > FreeBSD driver support is sub-optimal, but there is little that I can > do about that. Things are improving. If you're lucky and not depend on certain drivers, you are in the great situation that you don't have to care. For example, if you have a system that is intended to run Linux, where Linux has support for everything, but FreeBSD just causes problems on such a system, but you still wish (or need!) to run FreeBSD, using a VM solution gets you rid of all of those annoying problems. Plus, you can use the majority of software you know from FreeBSD because it's available on Linux anyway. > Aryeh, at some point in life, you have to learn to accept life as it is. But if you do that, you have no chance to make a change that leads to improvement. You'll have to eat whatever is fed into you. ;-) I absolutely understand mindsets like "time is money" or "don't fight when you cannot win". Accepting everything as given, and learn to live with the least annoying solution, instead of standing up and building something better has lead to significant problems in economy. It's not per accident that we're using stuff that is more or less "overclocked outdated steam machines" and mental concepts that are 50+ years old and don't match reality and current requirements anymore. People don't want to change. Sometimes they have to. And in the worse cases, it leads to cost increases, workflows breaking, data loss, redundant work, or simple despair. > I like utilizing two complete OS's. It suits my needs perfectly. And, > it is extremely simple to setup. If you are happy with the KVM, that is > fine with me. Having two physically separated fully equipped systems can be an advantage, just as using a KVM switch to interface with two systems using one "workstation frontend" - it depends on what you're doing. There is no general solution that works for everyone, no one size fits all egg-laying wool-milk-sow. Sometimes, having a Macbook next to your FreeBSD workstation is exactly the solution that helps you achieving your goals, and sometimes it's just a distant server that you connect to using SSH from whatever system you want. > But is it a 72" curved flat screen with surround sound? I kind of doubt > it. If it suits your needs though, that is all that matters. I was able to get FreeBSD + Mate work on such a system (even though not with sound, it didn't have any). :-) Follow Aryeh's experiment, and you will see that if this always leads to a less performant desktop than it did in the past, that's surely a problem. There is a convenient equation for "overall usage speed": resources provided by hardware++ -------------------------------- = const. resources demanded by software++ The quotient "const." isn't actually constant: In specific settings, the "overall usage speed" gets lower, read: some stuff is getting slower. That's what you can _observe_. The primary reason is increasing program complexity. Consider a "simple" thing like a web browser: it has become as complex as, or even more complex than a whole operating system. Why? Because prople treat it as one. That isn't just an increase of resources demanded, but also more chances to get things wrong, and lead to memory leaks and such. Now consider the libraries intended to be used, like Gtk or Qt. They expect things you find on Linux. They're not there on FreeBSD? Okay, let's create another layer that hides this fact and somehow delivers what's needed. Oh wait, Linux introduced something new that is now also expected? No problem, add another layer that provides a shim so it can at least compile, and we'll add the missing functionality later on. If performance is your goal, you maybe have to say goodbye to KDE and Firefox, and look for something else. On FreeBSD, you can actually do so. Choice is key. And if your choice is to _not_ use FreeBSD, that's fine - but it does not help solving the existing problems on FreeBSD. It's hard comparing things with all that growing complexity in mind. I still have a non-networked 300 MHz FreeBSD 5 PC here that runs XFCE 3 as a desktop, Opera web browser, and OpenOffice 1.1. It boots extremely fast and is a general joy to use. However, it doesn't match the requirements of today's web anymore, let alone security considerations. But it beats any newly bought "Windows" PC in startup time and what you can do with it (browsing the web is limited, of course, but it opens office documents, even broken ones, plays media, has network diagnostics, has a C++ compiler, can print to a laser printer, has games installed, can edit photos, and doesn't even have to phone home to obtain missing parts). Now compare _that_ to a system where you can't even use the calender "app" without being online and registered as a paying customer... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 00:01:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8072B37368C for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 00:01:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BFxfQ1Dxmz4WTf for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 00:01:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.203.242]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MxDgm-1kkU1D25mq-00xdXm; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:01:15 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:01:15 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Lonnie Cumberland Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: how to make pkg ignore some dependencies? Message-Id: <20200728020115.28c4ff4e.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iZJDmY56mhy/DpwCeA17WI0DKxkUhC291KGFD8Qlsz8t3iNKqqg 32oH5bahVw/swX11yl/9v2p1xoh/yufqu+jA5m4Y938R2Hb/2LRTuoMypxWJzGkRoPYpeOM 2rBW1SW5kQj2qMMJ3VsqBxFXboL3m0hX24Ej71PCU7vlS7E/IQN5a2anQQ29iUaPbiKmwIt CAP6L1hBhRj0VPTsB0L7g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:IGxwFC0sh/U=:ASMboBAxzqqjH/zXWJM3vA jcBDiDwMS32ZPDygPKKZ514X0JY/CugVTPmXg6CQ6xaPEaaVsCT35uIQO5RlvH6EvHIVlL2Xn zSR3kGaTSJIXchVey5n77Xi9lromgJVUhiSYnVxj1qgEiMbcqnzKeQqXVGZHEOIADhggvVZhq x+cw2f+5M2+zE06jllq3utbVyfckxhS4gw1sD6vHr83NMwm0Ppefd1yXM+P2g0UN/zfOGo1zC 1tuQ5DtanWynns47Wga/tZtVHcB9/47bos9Lwg2LZ2wOdYRBeXX2EmxwGveSn/caHnOqkNuRD Y/v4o2bZglN2WSQIaHxIrJDxVt6yYCalQpQKfUtR7KghuJwWyQZ//LJlbmDdyffxLTODD7WW6 uQDsmMUZuGRke5gMqw9I6tgOyHYWUCtEii38Hd4xkBg1QzmPabuH0ISCN8ED7abrFe1hPe1if IO2q734gmKBLIE7EurrmaSnju5NarnZNYWhuucze0DezwAJuzeULBerCVQsK4WIKii7BqiJ5E IErvDmJeP+wRkZjQrC+p+aoav67K7wUbg3OA8nbqhKaPME2eGrYxzrIsQqwKPKgiIzwV3Dqe9 K1fiiWyp8aMqVB5PaAL1zJhnK3LXH3522Yl+nHQ9gXnbvUOxFCApYTM5ZLq/aCSJ8b0lrqu1S itgfMzr4H5LEH9/OvoT3GsAT75aVw4SaDeEOgzqLM3WPHKSDX5wc9br9PTQxWXRxHLK7zmhlc 5UCBPSGHYn2kSkqmvlzSKgZyQiJA2cly4uj8roDPbWKaLzTjSbSwh4JykCHAU2SeGauDimap4 +x7085Wuu1eJaCJHBYMlCCprzpZDC5Fnbs9KWRd01AWgJw27197Lo5lbpyV2h5UBgPGsCCm X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BFxfQ1Dxmz4WTf X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.22)[-0.222]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.203.242:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.77)[0.771]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.66)[0.663]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 00:01:19 -0000 On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:17:52 -0400, Lonnie Cumberland wrote: > Lately, I have been working with various packages from the FreeBSD 12.1 > package system and noticed something interesting. > > I can do "pkg install xorg-minimal" which installs about 63 packages > and have noticed that if I do a "pkg fetch -d -o /some/path xorg-minimal" > then I can get all of the packages downloaded. > > Then, when I look through all of the download packages, I can notice that > some of them are not truly required for a minimal installation of Xorg. > (i.e. llvm80, py37, perl, etc..) Yes, that's really annoying. For example, pdftk requires gcc6 and binutils, wine requires gcc9, and ffmpeg even installed python 2.7 and 3.6... > I also notice that the "xorg-minimal.txz" package, itself, is really just a > small meta-package in this case and am trying to determine where it lists > the dependencies that make up the 63 packages that it wants to download. > > With this in mind, I would like to find out if there are some settings that > can be used with the "pkg" command such that I can tell it to leave out > some of the packages that it wants to download and install? That can be found out from the Makefile of a part which is used to build the dependency trees. Runtime dependencies (RDEPS or RUN_DEPENDS) contain packages that need to be installed for the program to run, and build dependencies (BDEPS or BUILD_DEPENDS) are those needed to build the package from source. Maybe somewhere a port maintainer did a mistake and listed build dependencies as runtime dependencies? It could also be some "indirect dependency issue" where a dependency depends on something else that isn't acutally needed. People don't have time to check dependency trees... ;-) > Or, is there some place that I can find out how the xorg-minimal package is > set up so that I can create maybe a new package called "xorg-ultra" or > something that leaves out the unnecessary packages? Yes, you can start with the port, and in case of this meta-port, it should be quite easy, as there are only a few files. The Makefile is the most important one. > I am looking at freshports to see if that helps also, but still > investigating all of this. Just obtain the latest ports tree (via svn), or use portsnap, and then you'll have all you need locally installed in /usr/ports on your machine. More general advice can be found in "The Porter's Handbook". https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/porters-handbook/ 5.9. Dependencies: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/porters-handbook/makefile-depend.html -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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([2a02:8109:98c0:1bc0:5e5f:67ff:fef4:ffd8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w20sm9241164eds.21.2020.07.28.01.49.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior To: Robert Huff Cc: questions@freebsd.org References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:50:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BG9NR3V68z44nC X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mpp302@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mpp302@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.301]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.208.45:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[0mp@FreeBSD.org,mpp302@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.208.45:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[0mp@FreeBSD.org,mpp302@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:50:00 -0000 Hi, On 7/28/20 1:06 AM, Robert Huff wrote: > Mateusz Piotrowski writes: > > load: 0.26 cmd: grep 10833 [getblk] 6.95r 0.05u 0.29s 1% 2528k > > mi_switch+0x155 sleepq_switch+0x11a sleeplk+0x106 lockmgr_xlock_hard+0x3e5 __lockmgr_args+0x618 getblkx+0x13f cluster_read+0xc2 ffs_read+0x19f VOP_READ_APV+0x35 vn_read+0x1e8 vn_io_fault_doio+0x43 vn_io_fault1+0x16c vn_io_fault+0x1bb dofileread+0x81 sys_read+0xc0 amd64_syscall+0x140 fast_syscall_common+0xf8 > > > > How do I go back to the old output? > > Set sysctl kern.tty_info_kstacks to 0. > That did it. > Thanks. > Umm ... is there a reason this isn't the default? I think the idea was that it is useful enough to enable it by default. Otherwise, it would be really hard to discover it. This change was well received by various developers, and it also had an revision where the default was changed from 1 to 2 (or something) to make it a little bit more compact. Cheers, Mateusz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 08:51:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9C33A1CFB for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:51:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BG9QJ2Bmmz44vL for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:51:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BG9QG46WhzFdqQ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:51:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595926294; bh=GzbD0d2ih8H6e1FpEqvjl7ApewE4ZWe+Jc9n8xe0Xc0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=lEHacZbviwhfuPKwNZzBm6eo2oUhSNbvDQdlejGPKhIpk9yL+VIF8S6c33S2ZfSCZ /a3zK7p1esErUtDv85Mn7tEninfcKUrr45D0vZDh0X39c7cR7zZOk9HPIzOu5hQNzB IX9Hg1CgRzMF8lx5xJvjv0ZaUJ7m2+80gYsh1Uxk= X-Riseup-User-ID: EA7B0487615A3A43E5ECC76F85E16AA354B33ABBE627756C9FB334BB76A9B6BF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BG9QF4mcwzJpxB; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:51:22 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728105122.3ab2f243@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200728012942.2157eb85.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200728012942.2157eb85.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BG9QJ2Bmmz44vL X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=lEHacZbv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.65 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.03)[-1.026]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:51:37 -0000 It's naive to expect that modern (2020) desktop environments are just sort of a helper to get consistent themes and fonts and a set of utilities such as calculators, terminals and a 2048 game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_desktop#Standardization_effort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(software) I'm using a plain window manager (openbox) and no desktop environment at all. I never experienced any modern (2020) desktop environment that is not a PITA on any operating system. On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:29:42 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >Having two physically separated fully equipped systems can >be an advantage Two-factor authentication was invented to enforce everybody to at least own two physically separated fully equipped systems from each vendor. To unlock your Foo washing machine, you need a Foo dishwasher and vice versa. To unlock your Bar telephone you need a Bar computer and vice versa. To unlock optimized KDE performance and all KDE features on a FreeBSD computer, you need a Linux computer also running KDE and vice versa. See "Contents 1.4 - Authentication" https://community.kde.org/Promo/Guidance/Specific_KDE_Technology/Semantik_Desktop#Authentication_to_unlock_KDE_performance_optimization_and_all_KDE_features From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 09:10:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177DE3A2C8A for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:10:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soyeomul@doraji.xyz) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BG9r34z6mz463g for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:10:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soyeomul@doraji.xyz) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id il6so5350662pjb.0 for ; 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Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from delta.birch.chromebook ([211.228.200.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b21sm17719025pfp.172.2020.07.28.02.10.23 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (nullmailer pid 29077 invoked by uid 1000); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:10:19 -0000 From: soyeomul@doraji.xyz (=?utf-8?B?7Zmp67OR7Z2s?=) To: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Organization: =?utf-8?B?6YeR6Zm1ICjsl7Dsm5DsnZgg66eI7J2MKQ==?= References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> Face: 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 Message-Id: X-Thanks-Workers: =?utf-8?B?7J2066eI65GQLCDsnbTsiJzsi6AsIOyghOuqheyImSwg?= =?utf-8?B?7KeE7ZGc7Jyo7IKsLCDqtIDsmrTsnqUsIOqwle2DnOqztQ==?= X-Thanks-Today: =?utf-8?B?J+qwgOyepSDrkZDroKTsmrQg6rKD7J2AIOuwleuejCDrsJU=?= =?utf-8?B?7IudKOWNmuimveWNmuitmCnsnbTri4jrnbwuJw==?= X-Thanks-Thanks-Thanks: =?utf-8?B?7LKc7ZWY7LC97IOd7J2EIOuLpCDsgrTrpqzsi5w=?= =?utf-8?B?66Ck64qUIOuniOydjC4uLl5eXg==?= X-Thanks-Absolete-Coding-System: UTF-8 X-Operating-System: =?utf-8?B?4omqZGluZ+KJqw==?= -- The Gnus X-Gnus-Motto: In a cloud bones of steel. X-Gnus-Desktop: GNOME ('Ubuntu', '18.04', 'bionic') Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:10:19 +0900 In-Reply-To: (Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions's message of "Fri, 24 Jul 2020 14:39:44 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BG9r34z6mz463g X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=doraji.xyz header.s=yw header.b=h4nXSOg5; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of soyeomul@doraji.xyz has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b) smtp.mailfrom=soyeomul@doraji.xyz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.11 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[doraji.xyz:s=yw]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.26)[-0.261]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[doraji.xyz]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.19)[0.188]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[doraji.xyz:+]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.48)[0.480]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:10:29 -0000 Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions writes: > Why do I have to choose between Linux and FreeBSD? Sorry for late. Currently Linux is good with Wayland. Wayland is future for *NIX users i think. Sincerely, --=20 ^=EA=B3=A0=EB=A7=99=EC=8A=B5=EB=8B=88=EB=8B=A4 _=E5=B8=83=E5=BE=B7=E5=A4=A9= =E4=B8=8B_ =EA=B0=90=EC=82=AC=ED=95=A9=EB=8B=88=EB=8B=A4_^))// From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 09:25:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1152E3A345D for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:25:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@magenta.de) Received: from mailout02.t-online.de (mailout02.t-online.de [194.25.134.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailout00.t-online.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGB9d72BTz4739 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:25:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@magenta.de) Received: from fwd17.aul.t-online.de (fwd17.aul.t-online.de [172.20.27.64]) by mailout02.t-online.de (Postfix) with SMTP id 47D6B41FF4E3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.21.89.76] (rSYxq2ZUwhIkwH6HU5qHR2XnRYUsU1xTyuooKMgIBMc58Xszn5cCZJfuornWVCSZla@[154.213.3.119]) by fwd17.t-online.de with (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted) esmtp id 1k0LrZ-3we1jM0; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:25:33 +0200 Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Wesley Peng Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:25:29 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ID: rSYxq2ZUwhIkwH6HU5qHR2XnRYUsU1xTyuooKMgIBMc58Xszn5cCZJfuornWVCSZla X-TOI-EXPURGATEID: 150726::1595928333-00006CDB-107DD926/0/0 CLEAN NORMAL X-TOI-MSGID: 08c321eb-7a48-4b14-aa64-3504cfd90fca X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGB9d72BTz4739 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@magenta.de has no SPF policy when checking 194.25.134.17) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@magenta.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.33 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.02)[-0.023]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[194.25.134.17:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[magenta.de]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.05)[-0.054]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.51)[0.507]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[194.25.134.17:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3320, ipnet:194.25.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:25:43 -0000 황병희 wrote: > Sorry for late. Currently Linux is good with Wayland. Wayland is future > for *NIX users i think. Do you mean this one? https://wayland.freedesktop.org/ Will wayland make linux desktop as stable as mac osx? Thanks. 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[174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d8sm16504322qtr.12.2020.07.28.02.32.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGBK82x1pz1HsW for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 05:32:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 05:32:02 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728053202.144abcb6@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200728012942.2157eb85.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200726165212.a0ac28ce104b9dfd009cc4c5@sohara.org> <20200727025242.GA48950@admin.sibptus.ru> <04bb7095-3e62-22d7-9db7-cfba3c66247b@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200727063036.31316d93@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727082427.3dd26eeb@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727121736.4f95993e@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200727153926.2c8bbfc3@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200728012942.2157eb85.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/t8n.hvqQhad1DEqd6DHSm_w"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGBKD2fYxz47Zc X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=mNE+5BxT; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::744 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.55 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.919]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.941]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.01)[0.011]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::744:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:32:17 -0000 --Sig_/t8n.hvqQhad1DEqd6DHSm_w Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:29:42 +0200, Polytropon stated: [truncated] >> Aryeh, at some point in life, you have to learn to accept life as it >> is. =20 > >But if you do that, you have no chance to make a change that >leads to improvement. You'll have to eat whatever is fed into >you. ;-) Poly, that was a bad choice of words on my part. I meant that one has to learn to accept things as they are, and then if they don't approve or accept whatever it is that is upsetting them, proceed to find a way to cure or rectify the problem. It goes along with my philosophy, as I have stated in previous posts, that no 'standard' or arbitrary rule or regulation should ever stop or dissuade one from creating a better product or improving an existing one. Other than that, Poly, I concur in various degrees, to what you wrote. --=20 Jerry =E2=80=9CEighteen holes of match play will teach you more about your foe th= an 18 years of dealing with him across a desk. =E2=80=9D =E2=80=95 Grantland R= ice=20 --Sig_/t8n.hvqQhad1DEqd6DHSm_w Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl8f8JIACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRqlgf+JMr/tGpjIv2lXBkZzhZBX83Zdb0rQw9KCQHoLDsKyUXnjH69iV3hCg1y tJwki0PGmwzQZQSy3JUQlfZvCBs3MxS46ccx2otuMbth/YF1R+/aaz0zuqDndlnn UnIfBNPQSysPJWepJZJbmoyO2BpMg7oz7forw9qT3Xf5EaoEPRtyvC8yOUWNaxYz biyQ53Xb75xyotqCNIkR52+gFxtSnbs2w7mhK37xUPmQ0s5zz9q8OLahUALCfO+H U7hzfJWjM8ePoenakdmciuHih1EYg3V0KH9IOPi8RRV75a9PkUeKOesDw57Zv8kB 8u92VM4mlUJo06q+vPVdoN7S3uQcwA== =/9t7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/t8n.hvqQhad1DEqd6DHSm_w-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 10:40:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B443A5A35 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:40:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGCqv4Qp5z4DRy for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:40:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGCqY0fhmzFf0G for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 03:40:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595932825; bh=OWQOcIs9MMOPNNb2u/BCt6vbyDqzENnzxHuc6LejpHM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=mcBggJZiVF4ufo/LmsJe+pMPkIk6LsZfdRw2mNtXHhL4tb65RiZlWfSOWm+5TcZid a3vsBpD1GbLKwaqKi7j7eTrC/oQLNfA/pLSmokfMX64l6vf4eYmodzDiU34NtE5lTE cYjaxvEBcsW2FVavf6oSibGlAUQeRG/Ol2Z9m+N4= X-Riseup-User-ID: 74C9965335F0D6DA3159B2BD4A6B4B064E36D22C3DD0870B1E2AC104AB2ED475 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BGCqX4LVGzJqVg for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 03:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:40:08 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGCqv4Qp5z4DRy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=mcBggJZi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.66 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.02)[-1.024]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:40:28 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:25:29 +0800, Wesley Peng wrote: >=ED=99=A9=EB=B3=91=ED=9D=AC wrote: >> Sorry for late. Currently Linux is good with Wayland. Wayland is >> future for *NIX users i think. =20 > >Do you mean this one? >https://wayland.freedesktop.org/ > >Will wayland make linux desktop as stable as mac osx? This is another stupid question! Stable for what kind of usage? Do you consider "osx" as stable or unstable? Stable as in not really customizable and being forced to use a desktop that doesn't fit to your needs? Yes! AFAIK Wayland does not provide all features available by X. You e.g. can't write a script to customize e.g. the focused window on demand. You have got no impact on keyboard input, keyboard map, can't move or resize a dedicated window by scripts. On Linux I'm using X and a window manager. I wrote scripts to use different monitors with different sizes and frequencies, transforming or not transforming ratio etc., scripts for keyboard shortcuts that e.g. resize the focused window. Etc. pp., some of it is probably possible using Wayland, too, but just to some degree. I'm using iPadOS for a 12.9-inch display. I changed the font size to be able to read the smallest fonts when wearing my + 2.0 dpt reading glasses. Some apps are still using fonts that I hardly can read using a magnifier, if I can read them at all, since font size is not really customizable, it's just customizable to some degree. "Some degree" is not enough for me. A lot of apps don't support Wayland. IIUC they can be used by kind of a bridge, that introduces a lot of issues. You shouldn't expect that all projects will migrate to Wayland. When major changes happened to Linux a lot of projects migrated to the new conditions, but some important, indispensable projects got lost forever. I suspect that Wayland will be a reason to migrate to another OS, to get back something important that will get lost. "OS X) is a series of proprietary graphical operating systems developed and marketed by Apple Inc. since 2001. It is the primary operating system for Apple's Mac computers." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS AFAIK there are no proprietary graphics drivers available for Wayland, so you get all the optimisation for your graphics, that is or isn't provided by a FLOSS driver. I'm for making changes to an OS, but not everything new is a good change and even something good might introduce disadvantages. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 10:51:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DDD3A5E2C for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:51:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGD4j26Vbz4FhR for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:51:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGD4g4YbSzFckG for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 03:51:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595933491; bh=JsGUBEcZ+Q19R1gL6oIqSvwaEMqdKbtXrd0sVc+MQrs=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=h421ZM5qNrQeQtDjpvqoj9wLACsar5yHkB6fhSE/Y/+rz+7WQRku0g6mqCuM27F2V m79frNTeqL0FMt/1Vrk8lBjN2WmpUhblkpuw/v0XT24z/mG4v4crJP8XZH8ey+G404 HxJjxMhZ5fCBtbOO9MkrYnqgVtjO/vlH0dtR7UIk= X-Riseup-User-ID: 2F1B90300657D24DC2D9755BA205D8A5B599353A2960506ACA03A469FE194E1A Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BGD4g0G1nz8tVG for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 03:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:51:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGD4j26Vbz4FhR X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=h421ZM5q; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.02 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.945]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.968]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:51:34 -0000 PS: I've got no idea how Wayland behaves regarding permissions. While in one user's openbox session, I run GUI apps as the logged in user and at the same time as another user. If security isn't a concern it can be done by using the sledgehammer "xhost +", but it could be done more gracile, too. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 11:03:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC0D3A5F7F for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:03:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005efba2e.78e03624fb77b0851c89f574d875b9bc@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGDLS57BDz4G2W for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:03:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20005efba2e.78e03624fb77b0851c89f574d875b9bc@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1595934209; x=1598526209; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=ECnGXFBYkMqYBmnLiZw/zTgedEctNxxuu2UX/3agAhg=; b=a4ZMY3ATKaD+XgkWurb++SpCOym9IrygWdNl2GYsWiV8pmvc7vC80X4fT13eCsw1kzLamgWQ8/7Z4zX3VxtwRCssQj3kV44ELXr+5gWaVXFDkBystnJqgE40lWTuS95tUZW1M8Wem1m8dlfWRSzheWKnoevfjDtCJT2OuS20LcQ= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDVlZmJhMmUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 07:03:25 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 07:03:24 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1k0NOE-000JIr-QB; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:03:22 +0100 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:03:22 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: soyeomul@doraji.xyz (=?UTF-8?B?7Zmp67OR7Z2s?=) Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200728120322.bb850a6dacdccf496758e620@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGDLS57BDz4G2W X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=a4ZMY3AT; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20005efba2e.78e03624fb77b0851c89f574d875b9bc@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20005efba2e.78e03624fb77b0851c89f574d875b9bc@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20005efba2e.78e03624fb77b0851c89f574d875b9bc@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org, 4250.82.1d4c20005efba2e.78e03624fb77b0851c89f574d875b9bc@email-od.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:03:29 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:10:19 +0900 soyeomul@doraji.xyz (황병희) wrote: > Sorry for late. Currently Linux is good with Wayland. Wayland is future > for *NIX users i think. It looks to be nearly inescapable to have it installed now anyway, this comes from my jail that has nothing deliberately installed but calibre: root@library:~ # pkg info -r wayland wayland-1.18.0_3: libva-2.8.0 mesa-libs-19.0.8_2 root@library:~ # pkg info -r libva libva-2.8.0: ffmpeg-4.3.1,1 root@library:~ # pkg info -r ffmpeg ffmpeg-4.3.1,1: qt5-webengine-5.14.2_1 root@library:~ # pkg info -r qt5-webengine qt5-webengine-5.14.2_1: py37-qt5-webengine-5.12.1_1 root@library:~ # pkg info -r py37-qt5-webengine py37-qt5-webengine-5.12.1_1: calibre-4.19.0 It all sort of makes sense - right up to wondering why mesa-libs and lib-va require wayland rather than the other way round. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 11:30:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DA93A693E for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:30:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@magenta.de) Received: from mailout04.t-online.de (mailout04.t-online.de [194.25.134.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailout00.t-online.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGDxf0b8qz4HX4 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:30:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@magenta.de) Received: from fwd32.aul.t-online.de (fwd32.aul.t-online.de [172.20.26.144]) by mailout04.t-online.de (Postfix) with SMTP id DC4A74198048 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:30:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.21.89.76] (Z6tUcGZEghFmGazthBSW5gQymAStuMUnHk8ZGzLWmKJS0cegP5ZPoYjt7ka4+HawTB@[154.213.3.119]) by fwd32.t-online.de with (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted) esmtp id 1k0NoM-1xvXVo0; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:30:22 +0200 Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> From: Wesley Peng Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:30:17 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ID: Z6tUcGZEghFmGazthBSW5gQymAStuMUnHk8ZGzLWmKJS0cegP5ZPoYjt7ka4+HawTB X-TOI-EXPURGATEID: 150726::1595935822-0000C7C3-62B9A260/0/0 CLEAN NORMAL X-TOI-MSGID: bea3fef1-8b26-4b88-adbd-9c5e6eaf9ec6 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGDxf0b8qz4HX4 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@magenta.de has no SPF policy when checking 194.25.134.18) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@magenta.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.02)[-0.018]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[194.25.134.18:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.34)[0.339]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[magenta.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.52)[0.518]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[194.25.134.18:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3320, ipnet:194.25.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:30:31 -0000 Hello Ralf Mardorf wrote: > This is another stupid question! Stable for what kind of usage? Do you > consider "osx" as stable or unstable? > > Stable as in not really customizable and being forced to use a desktop > that doesn't fit to your needs? Yes! I am the long term user of mac osx. I once used KDE and Gnome on linux as desktop. Fairly to say, KDE/Gnome was not as good as OSX. for example, linux desktop is slow, high memory consumption, and crash easily. OSX behaves much better on these area. I expect *nix has better desktop environment anyway, then I can replace my macbook. Thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 11:52:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794053A6E5E for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:52:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGFRM4ssHz4JSw for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:52:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGFRK2dT8zFdq2 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:52:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595937165; bh=++CjAgW1a9ZE1ddBnPwd4CQY1Qkf4pVMW3Oq0PHftKQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=q39fG5e4Srp3b7mcknEhbUXtsjxBS0mu+WoYDhxoKHXiIda13ZLZtJf+w2SeNrN1c FYWA10vxSki8dc7uWUGRKQmrSraPI2XgLD2F/QXHaldsD33DzOsNpgSKPRENo88l1M cZyXozE1rWn5EXm+0sO8hLN+NEDe3ED+KtAiB3OE= X-Riseup-User-ID: 5AF6C984E7E21E569753773669FDD3541F12E19094F904751E284594E873879E Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BGFRJ5MltzJnLb for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:52:45 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728135245.5d87ddfe@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200728120322.bb850a6dacdccf496758e620@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728120322.bb850a6dacdccf496758e620@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGFRM4ssHz4JSw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=q39fG5e4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.33 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.946]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.78)[-0.776]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:52:48 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:03:22 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >It all sort of makes sense - right up to wondering why mesa-libs >and lib-va require wayland rather than the other way round. They probably need Wayland to bridge/wrap GL or video acceleration to Wayland. Wayland probably doesn't need GL, because it does use another GL implementation and hardware video acceleration is probably not supported by Wayland at all, but maybe requires always Xwayland. Just guesses. A short research seems to confirm the guess related to GL. The same short research doesn't provide anything halfway clear related to hardware video acceleration. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 11:55:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63073A6EF7 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:55:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BGFVQ3Ll9z4Jpp for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:55:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 72E523A74B3; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:55:26 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A9F3A7371 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:55:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGFVP1ZcXz4JTg for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1595937324; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=6sM+OnownQst/YLNQeZAuODLolg=; b=q7tdQU8c/zZRyBDWZTG0x1F16KcR8n+jn+vB1W2KQsX33686BMDXxG56Ji9E0JYx T5/2G/lUBYgorFW7VRS2n5/ZiXlwcfb9SeiIMafh78QZ41wcdVYfU9VAiblWSL2l yS/xaHvUbW6sNQ139/+I/oKlptwu0B69jS/zLOqZdv98V+wc3518omKGO+BQD9xe OkFN+ZYJcuJYgCYZdogfLUw0vZJIOO/zua+LCO42o9OEP3CMjFzj9u3i8vlwkWCc rprGBn4Ht3SdiPbDjaPBi+FBfSqvXVNwUoIPyGSL5ra41SDPGyM3+ODIdZlGp9GZ Lr9Ffze3kMZMc65JItyqdg==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z5uS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=OA2lqS22AAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=sIt-5M63AAAA:8 a=bzscy5Q-Z5PvII_tjeEA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=iRRExZBRQuYA:10 a=047cQLXTEfCjWPUe_kQW:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=9lllHE19to-vvezgg3ZZ:22 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:39364] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id D9/66-10869-B22102F5; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 07:55:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24352.4650.708202.473784@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 07:55:22 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Robert Huff , questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior In-Reply-To: References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGFVP1ZcXz4JTg X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=q7tdQU8c; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.16 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.005]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.06)[-1.057]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:55:26 -0000 From: Robert Huff To: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior In-Reply-To: References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) --text follows this line-- Hello: > > > How do I go back to the old output? > > > > Set sysctl kern.tty_info_kstacks to 0. > > > Umm ... is there a reason this isn't the default? > > I think the idea was that it is useful enough to enable it by > default. Otherwise, it would be really hard to discover it. This > change was well received by various developers, and it also had an > revision where the default was changed from 1 to 2 (or something) > to make it a little bit more compact. And if it makes their life easier, then I approve. However: 1) something visibly changed, that 2) affects the default system shell and therefore a _lot_ of users, many of which like the old way 3) without warning or documentation (e.g. a single line entry in src/UPDATING), and figuring out what happened is, in your words "really hard to discover" for the casual user. Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 12:24:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6383636815D for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:24:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGG7c2ynZz4LRZ for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:24:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGG7b06MvzFdx3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 05:24:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595939051; bh=RM3MYPNc+9dzcGfK6Si1QpZCeCUWr8EWsQm0rG7ELuc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=eGdKnznml3jnNA5y4DOX8TAklJ0xeOnS8/OI2uyfT2AlhsR0YJgtUcnDHL8q1+32U cOstZtyq01Ue+KMoMUrnCHgsHPFUqR0n+S74bSaAUxZilQLHRbW9Gx9wtapuw2xhSZ BzexhKscJcTiRrKb8FryDZMMqcFIRCFB+UYVr9+M= X-Riseup-User-ID: DC27CC296758193F72C5072D1710EF316C87F6E9776F8E859BAE5A076C5410E8 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BGG7Z2T69z8tVG for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 05:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:24:11 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728142411.02563f99@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGG7c2ynZz4LRZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=eGdKnznm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.44 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.947]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.888]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:24:13 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:30:17 +0800, Wesley Peng wrote: >Fairly to say, KDE/Gnome was not as good as OSX. You are comparing "Apple" and oranges. Neither the KDE nor the Gnome desktop environment layer becomes more light weight when using either X or Wayland. It might make a difference for the window manager/compositor part of those desktop environments, but a desktop environment is way more than this. Btw. if your favourite Qt and especially GTK apps tend to cause issues, migrating to a default theme might solve those issues. A lot of users tend to select themes to meet aesthetic criteria instead of compatibility criteria. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 13:25:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1644C3696E2 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGHTp6rw8z4Pp3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE409294E7 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from PD0786.local (130.31-255-62.static.virginmediabusiness.co.uk [62.255.31.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 62FCAF8C3 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:00 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/62FCAF8C3; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24352.4650.708202.473784@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: matthew@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:24:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24352.4650.708202.473784@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:25:03 -0000 On 28/07/2020 12:55, Robert Huff wrote: > > From: Robert Huff > To: Mateusz Piotrowski <0mp@FreeBSD.org> > Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior > In-Reply-To: > References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> > > <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> > > X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) > --text follows this line-- > > Hello: > >> > > How do I go back to the old output? >> > >> > Set sysctl kern.tty_info_kstacks to 0. >> >> > Umm ... is there a reason this isn't the default? >> >> I think the idea was that it is useful enough to enable it by >> default. Otherwise, it would be really hard to discover it. This >> change was well received by various developers, and it also had an >> revision where the default was changed from 1 to 2 (or something) >> to make it a little bit more compact. > > And if it makes their life easier, then I approve. > However: > 1) something visibly changed, that > 2) affects the default system shell and therefore a _lot_ of > users, many of which like the old way > 3) without warning or documentation (e.g. a single line entry in > src/UPDATING), and figuring out what happened is, in your > words "really hard to discover" for the casual user. > The OP is running 13-CURRENT. That's the bleeding edge, development version. New stuff appears in CURRENT all the time, possibly with little more notice than a review on Phabricator or a short e-mail exchange. Some of what appears is initially buggy. Some is experimental and ultimately ends up completely different. As someone who has chosen to use the development version, you are expected to be able to cope. If you aren't prepared to deal with that, then choose one of the release versions. These come with all sorts of niceties, like release notes, guarantees of ABI stability, no untested code and no massive re-engineering. The `kern.tty_info_kstacks` sysctl will appear in the next stable release branch due out later this year. IIRC it will be present but default to '0' thus preserving existing behaviour. (I could be wrong about that. I'm trying to recall a conversation on Slack from several weeks ago.) In any case, there will be an item in the release notes and all of the usual sorts of documentation. Cheers, Matthew From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 19:36:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DD83722F9 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:36:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGRkp3hdTz3Xfs for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:36:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1595965008; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=0yF1e96dVu+JZBo7tclN53WoIuA=; b=I7hzqqM7xMMB04VVp9AL+cYLRBl1rLUcvoVvBRDx5XY1YKi/hUpRTzWAeHAZe3qM FGLoGCMFUXz0aTnXr2WRCU1hsWIoCUiz3q8UBbYb+NT1dqkKFw3F8XUpdNtxF1z6 3nVZg9E6lUzfaK1c6ZH6t8NMPHSscRN/xm+n6Qo25mRBJ/gQBle59J5BgqMgJKnx UHDDqrC5638mI4gbsgArcHglJNIh4+nTWQ8krL77A/Rm0bCL60Ly90jV+akj5EEq UxbQAw2Xk/DxUqQSY3S3/Qsi7vLhcQGoUxfgnOhxxEOTBruNyjjF9J709URDW+tY LIo9MAAAqk6Nw03vROZ++g==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J+PUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=FGcBbAwTQXDJWBcSKHkA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:42960] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 66/8F-42436-F4E702F5; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:36:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24352.32335.332652.269037@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:36:47 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: change in tcsh behavior In-Reply-To: References: <24351.11091.522286.251422@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24351.24025.555285.682585@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <24352.4650.708202.473784@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGRkp3hdTz3Xfs X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=I7hzqqM7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.72 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.951]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.68)[-0.680]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:36:51 -0000 matthew@FreeBSD.org writes: > The OP is running 13-CURRENT. That's the bleeding edge, > development version. New stuff appears in CURRENT all the time, > possibly with little more notice than a review on Phabricator or a > short e-mail exchange. Some of what appears is initially buggy. > Some is experimental and ultimately ends up completely different. > As someone who has chosen to use the development version, you are > expected to be able to cope. OP here: The gentleman's point is well taken, and I will proceed directly to self-recrimination phase. My thanks to every one for their assistance. Apologetically, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 19:39:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D528C3725E4 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:39:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGRnz4vkBz3Y1k for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:39:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 06SJdStI020231 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:39:28 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728123928.7c3a8cb2@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 5.1) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.4-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGRnz4vkBz3Y1k X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.878]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.43)[-0.430]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:39:36 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:40:08 +0200 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > This is another stupid question! On a mailing list intended for questions, I find this statement quite ironic. I'll note that, in my observation, "stupid" is an arbitrary subjective standard. Over the years on the net, I've constantly experienced humanity's failure to understand that intelligence is not a scalar measure but likely a tensor of unknown rank... if it can be measured quantitatively at all. As I have observed, there are two ways to respond to "stupid" questions. If someone is in need of validation for their intelligence "level", then their answer is usually (but not always) derisive and almost always condescending. If someone truly wishes to help, they gently explain at the level of the questioner's understanding what is wrong with the questioner's question and enough context about what the subject of the question is so a more answerable question can be asked. I haven't seen any other generalized response pattern. This does not mean they do not exist. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< With a jar on his back, a blind man walked at night, holding a lamp. A passer-by said: "What ignorance. Day and night is the same for you and you're carrying a lamp in the dark!" "The light is for blind people like you so that they won't knock against me and break the jar." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 20:46:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171FC373BE4 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGTHF52DPz3ckk for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:46:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A181496EB for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXs_6nCT8Eb5 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60F52496E0 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:25 -0400 Message-ID: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:25 -0400 Subject: Cups on FreeBSd-12.1p7 From: "James B. Byrne" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGTHF52DPz3ckk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.80 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.088]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:46:36 -0000 Following a pkg upgrade the printers on my desktop stopped working. I use cups and I see this in /var/log/cups/error.log D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] While reading gs_ll3.ps: D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Error: /undefinedresource in findresource D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] true (gs_icc.ps\\000gs_mex_e.ps\\000gs_mro_e.ps\\000gs_pdf_e.ps\\000gs_wan_e.ps\\000pdf_ops.ps\\000pdf_rbld.ps\\000pdf_base.ps\\000pdf_draw.ps\\000gs_cff.ps\\000gs_mgl_e.ps\\000gs_ttf.ps\\000pdf_font.ps\\000pdf_main.ps\\000pdf_sec.ps\\000gs_epsf.ps\\000gs_pdfwr.ps) (gs_ll3.ps) 1 Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave IdiomSet 7 Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Execution stack: D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] %interp_exit --nostringval-- findresource %loop_continue findresource findresource findresource false 1 %stopped_push --nostringval-- 1902 8 5 %oparray_pop findresource findresource --dict:16/18(ro)(G)-- --dict:2/2(G)-- findresource 1 %dict_continue findresource findresource 1900 6 5 %oparray_pop findresource %errorexec_pop findresource findresource findresource findresource D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Dictionary stack: D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] --dict:956/1123(G)-- --dict:0/20(G)-- --dict:77/200(L)-- --dict:956/1123(G)-- --dict:38/43(G)-- --dict:16/18(ro)(G)-- D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Current allocation mode is global D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Current file position is 18941 D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] The print file is empty. D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] PID 65664 (pstops) stopped with status 1! D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] PID 65663 (gs) stopped with status 1! I went down this road once before but the fix I had then (reinstall the older versions) no longer works. Has anyone else here run into this? How is it solved? -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 21:11:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59ECB374B70 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGTrN29SQz3fRk for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:11:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id r12so19561053wrj.13 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:11:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ew7iWUFjaUWixdaSxuizrihUomTVn8liCCjjRaV79RA=; b=CdMkNB3HTbnOk9qD3IKa+bFIxOIBLpSK6SW03tdk4N2FzHpCxwi6cFXJEcp/Ke7E81 YJ6EDzMPULD6/Dkrr1Yy82f7byJyhlGdWfoSSqkQ66vfhmefaZX//mOY0nzRBLQ4erdn 7XwhFdvtwvEqrY1wJrjXZwHWYvffqmURrxpAnb1FjkYZeNvDHbrRoBKJ6LdAd5cCMYFp PpoCrunHTeGtwr2BEExlGMeCidOQ5UVP7rdkGJ7Lzb3Z7A4EK/RXGlaH+stWFWTwHHYo yW/98oQdx2gkOCf3wjNX6fNmgKaUppfBrhEgfjmRXVPy+ABWX6OO/vZ72J9An569PQJ5 itUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ew7iWUFjaUWixdaSxuizrihUomTVn8liCCjjRaV79RA=; b=se1Tcf8NL6RpGJ7ayDOBR6gIjNjY0RaC0bXvIyxjGRYta/FvM4Alc75cbV6GIipNDs cs2w+oTeEA9/RcaVUDBF+94CGOBprN0nTDuF0+EcEDZ/KNE7/txUK/qY3EnOPO9Od0CT sRmD7tgE0NwhHAWBaDOMM6qj5D58nNiIc0JOPzFjLOXSWfga1VYhvI+V5H3WVrr5lF8b t5gTywBNHBmOt4gY5WzN7L4RHV2N617+y7+jo50Ex33UIueDjEFFYP/bboADFhlDmGcK hCFfwKJnqaH+jhvMlSrl+SlH+Wix1EIHcOK+J7wSkYO8kmYp4DdTFzmXEXmnlatSz00c QsLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533FG/yfI44RHLJpqKAiR1/eef5fyB1sjZDt2SlcLrYhAIpbFAeo 5+j6OYpyphcgI9i5JWDP3aUFJlDwQLiC1dkLLQEY41kjCODK0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvsOKntxfgS5NO5mjETsK/xqr+2472qhOq/03a41tJIOgoqhcLkuhRStcyHDqU188+fSaoLGnbT47O5ygpj04= X-Received: by 2002:adf:9cc9:: with SMTP id h9mr24544104wre.343.1595970706102; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:11:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:11:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Cups on FreeBSd-12.1p7 To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGTrN29SQz3fRk X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=CdMkNB3H; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::429) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.01 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.961]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.23)[0.229]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.983]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::429:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:11:49 -0000 On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:46 PM James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > Following a pkg upgrade the printers on my desktop stopped working. I use cups > and I see this in /var/log/cups/error.log Looks like a cups-filters / ghostscript / pstops problem? Some drivers use it for graphics conversion. I also had similar problem some time ago after updating cups. You may want to use another driver for the printer (add another one with different ppd) or use foomatic instead of gs.. or reinstall cups and its filter / conversion / driver dependencies? My configuration is: % uname -a FreeBSD 0xCFMX4 12.1-RELEASE-p7 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p7 GENERIC amd64 % which gs /usr/local/bin/gs % pkg which /usr/local/bin/gs /usr/local/bin/gs was installed by package ghostscript9-agpl-base-9.52_6 % which pstops /usr/local/bin/pstops % pkg which /usr/local/bin/pstops /usr/local/bin/pstops was installed by package psutils-1.17_5 % pkg info cups cups-2.3.3_1 Name : cups Version : 2.3.3_1 Installed on : Thu Jul 2 00:11:30 2020 CEST Origin : print/cups Architecture : FreeBSD:12:amd64 Prefix : /usr/local Categories : print Licenses : APACHE20 Maintainer : tijl@FreeBSD.org WWW : https://www.cups.org/ Comment : Common UNIX Printing System Options : AVAHI : on DBUS : on DOCS : on GNUTLS : on IPPTOOL : off LIBPAPER : on NLS : on X11 : off Shared Libs required: libavahi-client.so.3 libdbus-1.so.3 libgnutls.so.30 libpaper.so.1 libavahi-common.so.3 Shared Libs provided: libcups.so.2 libcupsimage.so.2 Annotations : FreeBSD_version: 1201000 cpe : cpe:2.3:a:apple:cups:2.3.3:::::freebsd12:x64:1 repo_type : binary repository : FreeBSD Flat size : 9.00MiB Description : CUPS is a standards-based, open source printing system. It uses the Internet Printing Protocol (IPP) to support printing to local and network printers. WWW: https://www.cups.org/ % pkg info -d cups cups-2.3.3_1: gnutls-3.6.14 libpaper-1.1.24.4 avahi-app-0.7_3 dbus-1.12.20 % pkg info -r cups cups-2.3.3_1: cups-filters-1.27.5_1 cups-pdf-3.0.1_1 libreoffice-6.4.5 qpdfview-0.4.18_8 ghostscript9-agpl-base-9.52_6 qt5-printsupport-5.15.0 chromium-83.0.4103.106 gutenprint-5.3.3 gtk3-3.24.20 freerdp-2.1.1 cups-bjnp-2.0.2 cups-fxlinuxprint-1.0.1_3 cups-pk-helper-0.2.6 gtk2-2.24.32 % pkg info -d cups-filters-1.27.5_1 cups-filters-1.27.5_1: fontconfig-2.13.92_2,1 dejavu-2.37_1 qpdf-10.0.1 ghostscript9-agpl-base-9.52_6 freetype2-2.10.2 cups-2.3.3_1 openldap-client-2.4.50 avahi-app-0.7_3 tiff-4.1.0 poppler-utils-0.90.1 png-1.6.37 lcms2-2.11_1 jpeg-turbo-2.0.4 colord-1.3.5 glib-2.56.3_9,1 gettext-runtime-0.20.2 dbus-1.12.20 % pkg info -r cups-filters-1.27.5_1 cups-filters-1.27.5_1: gutenprint-5.3.3 Hope that helps :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 21:34:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88DA537524D for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:34:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGVLQ3Yz0z3gBV for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:34:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGVLM4SgQzFdsc for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1595972059; bh=KxO5pazuP95ORYnlEw/8fm5yaD/yJ1Q58DCGd97TYNM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=kcmpGpYd0pLbSyFd6zlnQ6B4tB/LHOmjs1ucHe1g/+G/s7hRyCYJf3SqkYPh0JJXC C/C2kYgvXt/kEFgBOp2FbRXLBk1I/SS6R3EWr11o4RZ9a/YvfIOnk2XkxBeX99Ecil tD6gUWj1Zc60nss5YhxS79spVLmLNxTZ6eiudeV4= X-Riseup-User-ID: 04A2A9F8A373CE52FBFAD6AD7F0C2EF088142DB3F2514CACB4D67F2626CB115E Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BGVLL6R82zJms7 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:34:15 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200728233415.506d40b3@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200728123928.7c3a8cb2@bigus.dream-tech.com> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728124008.2b43ee7f@archlinux> <20200728123928.7c3a8cb2@bigus.dream-tech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGVLQ3Yz0z3gBV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=kcmpGpYd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.946]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.916]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:34:23 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:39:28 -0700, Dave Hayes wrote: >I'll note that, in my observation, "stupid" is an arbitrary subjective >standard. Don't take my replies to this kind of thread too serious. OTOH while it sounds absurd, the pointer to use default themes, such as Adwaita for GTK apps, before considering something more complex as the culprit for serious issues, isn't a joke. I regret to say that sometimes just dropping hardware and buying new hardware is also a comfortable way to get rid of some issues. At the moment I'm experiencing now and then short freezes when booted into Linux >=3D 5.6 kernels. I don't know if the issue exactly started at 5.6 or a little earlier or later. It still happens with 5.7.10. If I boot with or without threadirqs. Due to other issues with rt patched kernels I anyway stay with kernels < 5. All is good when booted into 4.19.132-rt59. If nobody else does experience the same issue, I could start biscting. Doing this would most likely take days, without guarantee that it will lead to something useful. I bought the Gigabyte GA-B853M-D3H mobo for 56,- =E2=82=AC and the Intel Ce= leron Dual Core G1840 for 31,- =E2=82=AC and pay around 50,- =E2=82=AC for 8 GiB = RAM, around 3 or 4 years ago. At the moment 4.19 kernels are supported, if they should get dropped when I used the hardware for around 5 years, I prefer to pay again around 150,-=E2=82=AC for hardware that likely works with what ever operating system I want to use, instead of trying to get rid of issues e.g. caused by kernel regressions. If there should be an issue related to the used SSDs and the kernel, then I need to pay a little bit more, but I don't think so. I only need hardware that can handle the amount of real-time DSP load when doing audio productions, by providing low audio latency and that doesn't consume much power, since a kilowatt hour is very expensive in Germany. In my experiences neither the latest and greatest hardware, nor very old hardware is the best choice for FLOSS operating systems. For some purposes old hardware works without issues and we could have good luck with the latest and greatest hardware, too. Hardware that isn't too old and not to new is the best bet to work without issues. I'm not surprised that the subscriber whining the most about bad performance of Linux and Linux software on FreeBSD, but with good experiences when using Windows, is using a very new generation of computer technology. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 21:54:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D28375A7E for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:54:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGVp7402wz3yDS for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:54:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 06SLsr2J012743 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:54:53 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Wayland inescapable indeed (was Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux) Message-ID: <20200728145453.14f83f30@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20200728120322.bb850a6dacdccf496758e620@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200728120322.bb850a6dacdccf496758e620@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.4-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGVp7402wz3yDS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.953]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.974]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.55)[-0.554]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:54:56 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:03:22 +0100 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote: > It looks to be nearly inescapable to have it installed now anyway, > this comes from my jail that has nothing deliberately installed but calibre: Indeed. I've noticed this too: > pkg info -r wayland wayland-1.18.0_3: vlc-3.0.10,4 plasma5-kwin-5.18.4.1 plasma5-kscreenlocker-5.18.4.1 xwayland-1.20.8_1,1 mesa-dri-18.3.2_10 kf5-kwayland-5.68.0 webkit2-gtk3-2.28.1 gstreamer1-plugins-gl-1.16.2 wpebackend-fdo-1.4.1 libva-2.6.1_2 mesa-libs-18.3.2_4 sdl2-2.0.10_1 gtk3-3.24.10_1 Honestly I don't pretend to understand this (yet) but it is concerning. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< We may eventually come to realize that chastity is no more a virtue than malnutrition. -- Alex Comfort From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jul 28 23:47:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C4D3776CB for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:47:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rcarter@pinyon.org) Received: from h2.pinyon.org (h2.pinyon.org [65.101.20.170]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGYJY6f3Lz439d for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:47:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rcarter@pinyon.org) Received: from [10.0.10.15] (unknown [10.0.10.15]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by h2.pinyon.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F34F1D22C for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:47:50 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Cups on FreeBSd-12.1p7 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: "Russell L. Carter" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:47:49 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/68.0 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGYJY6f3Lz439d X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rcarter@pinyon.org designates 65.101.20.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rcarter@pinyon.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.78 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.85)[-0.850]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[pinyon.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.06)[0.060]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.69)[-0.689]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.101.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:47:59 -0000 On 2020-07-28 13:46, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > Following a pkg upgrade the printers on my desktop stopped working. I use cups > and I see this in /var/log/cups/error.log > > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] While reading gs_ll3.ps: > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Error: /undefinedresource in > findresource > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] true > (gs_icc.ps\\000gs_mex_e.ps\\000gs_mro_e.ps\\000gs_pdf_e.ps\\000gs_wan_e.ps\\000pdf_ops.ps\\000pdf_rbld.ps\\000pdf_base.ps\\000pdf_draw.ps\\000gs_cff.ps\\000gs_mgl_e.ps\\000gs_ttf.ps\\000pdf_font.ps\\000pdf_main.ps\\000pdf_sec.ps\\000gs_epsf.ps\\000gs_pdfwr.ps) > (gs_ll3.ps) 1 Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave IdiomSet 7 > Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Execution stack: > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] %interp_exit --nostringval-- > findresource %loop_continue findresource findresource findresource > false 1 %stopped_push --nostringval-- 1902 8 5 %oparray_pop > findresource findresource --dict:16/18(ro)(G)-- --dict:2/2(G)-- > findresource 1 %dict_continue findresource findresource 1900 6 5 > %oparray_pop findresource %errorexec_pop findresource findresource > findresource findresource > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Dictionary stack: > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] --dict:956/1123(G)-- > --dict:0/20(G)-- --dict:77/200(L)-- --dict:956/1123(G)-- > --dict:38/43(G)-- --dict:16/18(ro)(G)-- > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Current allocation mode is global > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Current file position is 18941 > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] The print file is empty. > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] PID 65664 (pstops) stopped with > status 1! > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] PID 65663 (gs) stopped with status 1! > > I went down this road once before but the fix I had then (reinstall the older > versions) no longer works. Has anyone else here run into this? How is it > solved? > > In addition to what Tomasz mentioned, I had to delete/reinstall my printer. But I was very happy to do so because now FreeBSD cups competently understands IPP Everywhere(TM) which means that the house printer (Brother HL L2340D) can now be managed natively by FreeBSD 12-stable rather than by Debian-testing sharing with the sad out of date FreeBSD cups. I do poudriere bulk all my own packages, svn updating daily, so YMMV. This cups upgrade was a very pleasant surprise upgrade and kudos to the maintainer. HTH, Russell From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 29 00:48:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C424C3788C6 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:48:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGZft0w1qz45GW for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:48:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADD15C0138 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:48:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:48:21 +0100 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: [WORKAROUND] Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) Message-ID: <20200729004821.GA80948@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGZft0w1qz45GW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm3 header.b=ToRJdkIu; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=aY8dGFcv; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 66.111.4.26 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.96 / 15.00]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 07:21:42PM +0100, tech-lists wrote: >Hi, > >This is a really odd problem which I haven't a clue how to debug. > >I use fastmail.com for my email. Sometimes, I'll want to use a web browser >(firefox in this instance) to look at mail via their webmail. I have, amon= gst >other machines, my main desktop machine running 12-stable/kf5/plasma. > >If I use firefox at the site to compose email, I can compose it but when I= try >to send it I get "sending failed" and this is real, the mail is not sent. = If I >run firefox (same version) from an ubuntu machine, I *can* send mail. > >If I run iridium on the desktop machine and do the same thing, I *can* send >email. > >I have tried this from a pristine freebsd-current vm as well. I get the sa= me >result as I do from my freebsd-desktop. That machine, as it's a vm, does n= ot >run a DE. > >fastmail support haven't a clue about this issue, not that I'd expect them= to >in this instance as it's far outside of their support remit. > >So why can I not use *specifically freebsd firefox* to send email from >fastmail.com's webmail? How can I debug this? Is it a headers thing? It seems the problem was being caused by Firefox on freebsd giving fastmail a fractional time-zone offset causing them to generate an invalid offset in the JSON fastmail was sending to the server. = Because of this the server was rejecting the message resulting in the "Send Failed"= =2E=20 Fastmail have worked around this issue and made a change that converts the offset to a whole number, and now firefox (freebsd) works. But this, to me, looks like a freebsd firefox problem and not directly a Fastmail one really. So i'll raise a PR in ports To reproduce, open a javascript console and enter=20 new Date().getTimezoneOffset() and ctrl-enter and it should produce a whole number as output. Firefox on my freebsd desktop outputs -59.55. My timezone is set Europe/London. For comparison, iridium on the same system shows -60 and firefox on Linux M= int 18 gives 0. Firefox installed from official freebsd pkg repos running a very recent -current shows the same as my 12.1 desktop - -59.55 So it does seem to be firefox on freebsd and only freebsd and it doesn't matter if it's 12.1-stable or current. I have not tried firefox-esr, i'll do that next. The firefox on the current vm is vanilla, no addons at all are installed. >--=20 >J. --=20 J. --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl8gx2cACgkQs8o7QhFz NAV82g/+N9rgXwZ/FtsBxBEsyqete5O/BS9kPHv6bnGDTVpfOyWLjYvoDcv1rna0 +BNyA/DingFqG08dtHqPuPu6V5HMzDXEe6le8SQqw6PfTADYk1jV+kf5PJ+i86sT ZZ72fmi54KfE62c1mO2C5dcwedp/2qIiAnNKJEVX55HdNLwUDxJsmsqaZQE5ayUP d1ySDuFFb5CUBApfuRdNoWOiS06e6FnknTVuI+93X6VMGSVd/Kz3+YrwC6Yh8Io6 lUNLnhboQ/GgUln4YIS26lLSyTZdhNKLniKoKlEtaxlTOlvT9tN2TUCOKt7wlSiK yVEnCx7clJG24sAb5nh4rmrCKODUZju+l3Vtyqbe4Ovsb5/2HD+GP4YPyF4d0rvR wuq2jFMBSjUOa/5IsfUHY/4WmmRgAMfFiWCq7XqSQ/gbyr4JvhPOjv42dN1LiBpi XQg0nbedN4ZkNrUHqC0+DnAjpN5eut6uy257WDp9Ej9Iu/m2jr0wLwwATZERSKhz HC4WPriQICqJcYZHnnzjRHI8oHJGzTQE+5ihHYqZKogDpr3KKmlIE0L++F4G5EPP 5cQvKoUsPPf22gHVXCuNGcsuJxQIQ5+EZKHmGfPAoGjPVpdaVXKXDjlEOureLfRp wD7tUKY2b8LR6pFXqybuLYa7wABN1oRZl93Q4iFt9l/P4pfV1DQ= =klxc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 29 03:31:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D24037C389 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:31:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGfGY2JHhz4DRQ for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:31:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.237.35]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M5fdC-1k7mkS30sU-007Fpv; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 05:31:30 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 05:31:30 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Russell L. Carter" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cups on FreeBSd-12.1p7 Message-Id: <20200729053130.d4a61a15.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:QFL4NgRhV/EcEkiR6vLux1HBIXeDzRjfCaPBJoEasAQiNu2sJdW U88MLPBlm4yHzlAmP9085THohTfthxvjAmy0St9saPwLfRYFfdmOlmkwMmxPanO1pV7+NgE EX4v8zEShf9craLO93vg7zA4Ve9zEBiD05dZKivP2bWIISNn6PgFYlBOztTPg1nJ6OoNE8Z dEZaCYTkPjHP1nIXhnQHQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wRgDtifX1ig=:keCYXnwnav2P2AzLhrmBon aZLFoJVuwWzqUReuIqm8lH9Nq3Y3EYWvEPy7EFLDSmghvKldGOBSTL5sJkEGIFxQBZ9lbJO0s WZGgoA+Sg5eibyMQSsa65GHCkU6NCtasg+przYwlqAsNUmQbeFb3+IWlN2z9ORBeAiKMODVo3 aMd/2sOiqNh//3Id9ZSR8eQPwUnuZ++AxyjJ+W2638hjJBCpe94B0975vpfvuU28n1vg4e6QC Qgfmzq5PpgCjQfRk+O3ELVxFGrcULFlV7gSGyxiODNSAofIQCL/im5B4bi3VtfZHeuNYYA01+ 49CeTXgc/RJh8xHswicprHY2dz6PC96f3UhhawFi0Y/Hy2ptB0p1qPI/1czTTRgthljGpiW0N W8NdE5R8NljFkRw+YjH94+jbED5RbZqjJ1c7IQOB8WZDrc418gTcupLNNRmCVRuPXK3NbT4xS SMVUZ9Q97XrNpt9cN0rBrxhhypXqwNcfce/DFPNRlFxm+RjkhUlrhqayvmxsT1Ukvhkts5unC 7ZuA9l8AVUKsvhrWZQ5Aj3/9tOGMU6uciuASSCWdKszhI1/l0Oyk82SIc8MGjwdDUUz+mj/rR 84jxcvj5gHLciA2rWY97p0fhCdGj0SlXIWtl7a/gizmqk7+hmWHC+rXDntV4ognwrrtcjDELS ljRwQLqDtPeGFbwwGCoTRsWoRykrBVm6GlSXLwwUZJ3KDAiif5ibtTNMAN5kJIcjsoP5unwVL w1ztN76BHWVvAScpl8zkaveywbAej6S8FdFfVR6mISHgvJ3mqnJ5cSk4x0LLUlyNtknPuSUeB DMLYsG8UWWK2nUc+M5aSkYS2pNt91PQ2YoVNjb8J+r7ciSWP26DtMbV4c7L/btYEEG7GfXv X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGfGY2JHhz4DRQ X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.09 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.237.35:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.18)[0.176]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.50)[0.502]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.01)[0.010]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:31:34 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:47:49 -0700, Russell L. Carter wrote: > In addition to what Tomasz mentioned, I had to delete/reinstall my > printer. But I was very happy to do so because now FreeBSD cups > competently understands IPP Everywhere(TM) which means that the house > printer (Brother HL L2340D) can now be managed natively by FreeBSD > 12-stable rather than by Debian-testing sharing with the sad out of > date FreeBSD cups. In addition to re-installing all CUPS-related parts (CUPS itself, its backends, printer filters, converters and so on), deleting and re-installing the printer itself often solves CUPS problem. It's not the first time that this solution has saved me from endless CUPS log diagnostic sessions... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 29 03:39:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434D337C3BE for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:39:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGfSB1BRlz4Dnn for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:39:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.237.35]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MVJZv-1kBF101FXr-00SPCn; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 05:39:49 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 05:39:48 +0200 From: Polytropon To: tech-lists Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [WORKAROUND] Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) Message-Id: <20200729053948.745643a5.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200729004821.GA80948@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200729004821.GA80948@bastion.zyxst.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:gp88r3t35P3lx+oAmXjwzGyS7qyVty00vuR+kFZKrqrM8v/aarH 2bnMdtpXz56ixjiWwSdszebyh+vp22FxEy7cddIUW1/b1qHx2/knKvZR/yZNG4G1vbazW4v 4LPAb+trj/btpwwRj2xPrdnJhQG39vTAOEFdy2WHc26J9RSoJqZcUFnbzEzjk8QgSz3NtGT n78xNlmJT+F3LcleT4XiQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:iLn7dXB+z9s=:G3D6R3btjT/qrV0hv5Evl4 OwQBouOgqRW6N6mMFaGwhZXUNwpFocuXDNOYdX21Sc5tOwByueXihRtvp6uxfy6YW+zTykAtj DH+hfz26/wGSX9j1fOzJDnKg2rGv2gyG5SAZaiJW2PS+BiUkgKM6Vrcb/c4JLEhgi1pj045Vk qsl8vco9wNLOx34PHdcWz9hmbCVAiLao0VYElj4Ba0QluC+zD9srzBbD76HTZj7LSjp26sooJ c4fTC10HM81eKlnqPDmvwLmbGxr71U70qg5ACSjTJClYYGPPxq1Xa5DpcGnkhQQkYTi9GcX/o gdwQAbbM7dj4yqYD5G3YmnwywYjPLnTZCZ5UJE+At19odayd27bZr3D5PBmMbBH7VZnTB9DoA rCA0TAZthkLxLxd8H00Sn8R+ZgR7mUI5dwKuo7pi9xG5JhyUiwStyKzb9rLNGzzfph4PgIfhM nW3JOv5P8n6nJ1zp5eMd9GlJWoi6GfX18MgAZQJg5zOyDpQdCc4MTAESdmZHUbPxbj6gsOuTv Yi8A2Vy5UqFZduCSASvFF+CW12jSm5VWS7I1R7+XWJOhsS4Jvi9SKQOvD2wnIsdqghB/9ROvg zVp3ubdVajqoixEHL4U/Ue4C6LoL+9ZdoJ87DWG6o/F387R8gy2IQexfxe3rgvxJ+CSaJSabu FcNNOwRq30XufJxHHtVe9bn5BV+HMfLk0emDdi/RKwMB+9K5I3z4x3a3FG6QPzERiYlbEPQuN ZSDbb6d6Q9r69J83vxyjDipvJxorIDU5HOxhKbHNmZhZjbReL4scmaCkGz/pT5brbPDJPFkSD lzGHLKebL64bHXI4jSnp7kq0KBFZGcNzOP75WEFZmlKwNMTWXm4pKQjbjcH92EM5FDdeS+v X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGfSB1BRlz4Dnn X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.07 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.237.35:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.20)[0.202]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.02)[-0.018]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.49)[0.487]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:39:55 -0000 On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:48:21 +0100, tech-lists wrote: > It seems the problem was being caused by Firefox on freebsd giving > fastmail a fractional time-zone offset causing them to > generate an invalid offset in the JSON fastmail was sending to the server. Because > of this the server was rejecting the message resulting in the "Send Failed". > > [...] > > To reproduce, open a javascript console and enter > new Date().getTimezoneOffset() > and ctrl-enter and it should produce a whole number as output. Firefox on my > freebsd desktop outputs -59.55. My timezone is set Europe/London. Related collections of ancient wisdom: Falsehoods programmers believe about time https://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca Falsehoods programmers believe about time and time zones http://www.creativedeletion.com/2015/01/28/falsehoods-programmers-date-time-zones.html ;-) However, an offset of -59.55 really looks strange, especially as only one program on one platform produces it... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 29 04:25:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B295737D90F for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:25:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGgSg3tN7z4H4H for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:25:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id 184so1574299wmb.0 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:25:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pqDnLYTnuXBwIv30VqHrJmxsflYkAkx0cQf8IyvPusk=; b=cBKI7Aesw0HFVT5I1D6wmMROwYNrQXTbGh27Pv6rBAYzD4f/+EfojHy6FL/VQVmx/d IzHvpYBi/kKRdX4Jg7FsU+6TPB73hnEe0nFMevv0nBMn5Rp2OIs7hYAned8V7Phf/ywL Fut06RDeKA0u50zjqhAh6pX/8CHNGpQOUfUmJozn3y4UyD4w0Yc6ak8e/yw4hQzFCAe/ NJHCShxm1YjfZ9RXV6/qarMMVDCFQHwOtw6NMjwhPMtOxi6itHAyd6p7ePxUr6jXLPme B+0LHySODVXmqHAT1uatcQGC6fhD2LGZa0HEKf4WDRJJwumvK604/Z2hGnUpL3lIcdjd zbhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5331aLPEiNZ2mBuuKuCdYqNaweO1fGNw+EZXQdMCE7gONy+RgA4q Tz4wCt48JKYx15AwsSPNEsjfHb4o X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxGbC30uczE3/iLvGX8k+Vp2nM5ILW+V/+/CH3YBHc/4JylbpDLNZvGLtqXOkkGY3El+O5X4w== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c242:: with SMTP id b2mr7119065wmj.90.1595996721683; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.65.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p22sm2011010wmc.38.2020.07.28.21.25.20 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 05:25:18 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [WORKAROUND] Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) Message-ID: <20200729052518.6ddfbe82@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20200729004821.GA80948@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200729004821.GA80948@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGgSg3tN7z4H4H X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.65.254:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.978]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.983]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::330:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.495]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:25:24 -0000 On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:48:21 +0100 tech-lists wrote: > It seems the problem was being caused by Firefox on freebsd giving > fastmail a fractional time-zone offset causing them to > generate an invalid offset in the JSON fastmail was sending to the > server. Because of this the server was rejecting the message > resulting in the "Send Failed". > > Fastmail have worked around this issue and made a change that > converts the offset to a whole number, and now firefox (freebsd) > works. But this, to me, looks like a freebsd firefox problem and not > directly a Fastmail one really. So i'll raise a PR in ports India has a fractional offset and, ironically, so does a part of Australia. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 29 09:10:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 804593A46C3 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:10:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tijl@freebsd.org) Received: from mailrelay104.isp.belgacom.be (mailrelay104.isp.belgacom.be [195.238.20.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "relay.skynet.be", Issuer "GlobalSign RSA OV SSL CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BGnnF0KHsz4W8n for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:10:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tijl@freebsd.org) IronPort-SDR: oOezZI7IimZidojr6drXb8QR8X3KlxSNog6eVdBgMxJWsUt7fAXt3mf9mYdxBfqJmzpkU+EkJR UX+kHdwGNW0HlW9eq6HWQJKEhbXWTMMBrywQurd5KjnMbEdLz7v3/PVEIZwA4Va/QSadvvwSo/ wf3+cX3pct8dANAyO7ms+onL8iomU8i+M+hAnu+NXu3JDefCoMfVHIfnJ4FTuki/310YyXB44A anC26rm7E5+pgEsCYukbvlI9I5hvaQGV2aOLtwQkGiyP2mSbdSIAVaonFTcX6r3bB7VA7KMrY2 ljE= X-Belgacom-Dynamic: yes IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AjmaF9h9OAOv1/v9uRHKM819IXTAuvvDOBiVQ1K?= =?us-ascii?q?B30OkcTK2v8tzYMVDF4r011RmVBNudta4P0rOempujcFRI2YyGvnEGfc4EfD?= =?us-ascii?q?4+ouJSoTYdBtWYA1bwNv/gYn9yNs1DUFh44yPzahANS47xaFLIv3K98yMZFA?= =?us-ascii?q?nhOgppPOT1HZPZg9iq2+yo9JDffgRFiCC8bL59Ixm6sBjdvdQKjIV/Lao81g?= =?us-ascii?q?HHqWZSdeRMwmNoK1OTnxLi6cq14ZVu7Sdete8/+sBZSan1cLg2QrJeDDQ9Lm?= =?us-ascii?q?A6/9brugXZTQuO/XQTTGMbmQdVDgff7RH6WpDxsjbmtud4xSKXM9H6QawyVD?= =?us-ascii?q?+/6apgVR3mhzodNzMh/m/ZitJ+gr9Yrh2jqRxwzJLbbo6OOfpifK7QZ88WSX?= =?us-ascii?q?ZdUspPUSFKH4Oyb5EID+oEJetWsYz/p18TphagAgmsA/jvxSFNhnDs2606yP?= =?us-ascii?q?kqHAba3AwhHdIOtG/ZotXvNKgMT++40bTGwzvZY/NRwzf955HFfxY8qv6DQb?= =?us-ascii?q?x+a9DeyVUzFwzblFWQr5ToMi2L2+gQrWSW8eRtWOKvhmAnqwx8rTaiyMkvh4?= =?us-ascii?q?TXgo8Yy1LJ+CVlzYsoJdO1SE12bMC6HZZeuCyXM4p7Tt0sTWxupS00yaUGtI?= =?us-ascii?q?a4cSQX0pgr2RHSZ+Cdf4WH4B/vTvudLDN8iX9jZbmxnQy98VK6xe35TsS01V?= =?us-ascii?q?FKoTdbndTUrXAN0gDT6tCASvtg4ketwTaP2B7X6uFDOU00lrDUK5ogwr41iJ?= =?us-ascii?q?UTq0PDEjXqmEX3jq+Wcl8o9fSv6+TgebXpuJqcOJVyigHlKKgunda/AesgPg?= =?us-ascii?q?gPWWiU5/i82aXg8EHkWrlGkPI7nrXDvJ3VJ8kXvLO1DgtR34o77hawFTam0N?= =?us-ascii?q?AWnXkdK1JFfQqKj5ToO1HMJPD1Fvm/g06ynzh13P/GJaDuDo/KLnjZn7ftZa?= =?us-ascii?q?x95FJEyAov0dBf4IpZCr8bIP3tRED+r8fYAQIgPwyt3uboFs591p8fWWKIBK?= =?us-ascii?q?+ZK7jfsVGS5u0xPeaDf5QVtyvnJ/gi/f7ugixxpVhIc7Ok0JEMZDWhA/l9P0?= =?us-ascii?q?SeZ2HEjM0MHG0Rskw5VuO5pkeFVGtvgHL6dKU7/Tw+AYS9RdPfR4KpqJKb0S?= =?us-ascii?q?qRJbEQYXpJXAPfWUz0fpmJDq9fIBmZJdVsx2QJ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2D5DABKPCFf/8cv8FFgHgEBCxIMQAe?= =?us-ascii?q?BRYMDaAFJFY02hgWCEIhdgiWRCgsBAQEBAQEBAQE3BAEBhEwCgiIlOBMCAwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMCBQEBBgEBAQEBAQUEAYYPRUMBEAEEAYFdIoMZAQU6HCMQCxguVxmGJ68?= =?us-ascii?q?PgTSFUoQQgQWBOAGNIIIAhCE+hQqFKQSPP0WLA5p9gmmZbjCfdLNQgXpNMAi?= =?us-ascii?q?DJFAZDVecED8DMDcCBggBAQMJiQCDYoQGAQE?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2D5DABKPCFf/8cv8FFgHgEBCxIMQAeBRYMDaAFJFY02h?= =?us-ascii?q?gWCEIhdgiWRCgsBAQEBAQEBAQE3BAEBhEwCgiIlOBMCAwEBAQMCBQEBBgEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQUEAYYPRUMBEAEEAYFdIoMZAQU6HCMQCxguVxmGJ68PgTSFUoQQgQWBO?= =?us-ascii?q?AGNIIIAhCE+hQqFKQSPP0WLA5p9gmmZbjCfdLNQgXpNMAiDJFAZDVecED8DM?= =?us-ascii?q?DcCBggBAQMJiQCDYoQGAQE?= Received: from 199.47-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be (HELO kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org) ([81.240.47.199]) by relay.skynet.be with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2020 11:10:07 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 06T9A5pI016616; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:10:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tijl@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:10:05 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?VMSzbA==?= Coosemans To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Subject: Re: Cups on FreeBSd-12.1p7 Message-ID: <20200729111005.69aba9bf@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> References: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BGnnF0KHsz4W8n X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.00 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5432, ipnet:195.238.0.0/19, country:BE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:10:09 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:25 -0400 "James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions" wrote: > Following a pkg upgrade the printers on my desktop stopped working. I use cups > and I see this in /var/log/cups/error.log > > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] While reading gs_ll3.ps: > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] Error: /undefinedresource in > findresource > D [28/Jul/2020:16:40:44 -0400] [Job 1820] true > (gs_icc.ps\\000gs_mex_e.ps\\000gs_mro_e.ps\\000gs_pdf_e.ps\\000gs_wan_e.ps\\000pdf_ops.ps\\000pdf_rbld.ps\\000pdf_base.ps\\000pdf_draw.ps\\000gs_cff.ps\\000gs_mgl_e.ps\\000gs_ttf.ps\\000pdf_font.ps\\000pdf_main.ps\\000pdf_sec.ps\\000gs_epsf.ps\\000gs_pdfwr.ps) > (gs_ll3.ps) 1 Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave IdiomSet 7 > Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave The pkgsave extension is used by pkg when it has to install a file over an existing file. It renames the existing file with this extension then. Pscript5Idiom should be in /usr/local/share/ghostscript/9.52/Resource/IdiomSet/ So my guess is something went wrong with the registration of the ghostscript package during a previous upgrade. You can just remove this file. Maybe you should also search your system for other pkgsave files. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 29 17:12:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C103AEF1C for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BH0TG0W2Vz42n7 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:12:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B261249D12; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:12:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Y2Ohaho_fDX; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA46749D07; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:11:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:11:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:11:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [WORKAROUND] Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) From: "James B. Byrne" To: "RW" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BH0TG0W2Vz42n7 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.08 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26:c]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[googlemail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.002]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.35)[-0.351]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.024]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:12:02 -0000 On Wed, July 29, 2020 00:25, RW wrote: > > India has a fractional offset and, ironically, so does a part of > Australia. Yes, but neither varies by 30 seconds from the hour. On the other hand, on my system Firefox web console returns this: new Date().getTimezoneOffset() 240 Which is four hours west of UTC or Eastern Daylight Savings Time. -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 04:07:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32887376E66 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:07:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHH211Qmgz3RQ7 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:07:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4E1D16 for ; 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Thu, 30 Jul 2020 00:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:07:21 +0100 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: [FIXED] Re: odd issue affecting firefox (any version) on freebsd (any version) Message-ID: <20200730040721.GA25005@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gKMricLos+KVdGMg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200722182209.GA46914@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHH211Qmgz3RQ7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm3 header.b=E/H4NZeb; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=Ds8W/8wt; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 64.147.123.24 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[zyxst.net:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.036]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zyxst.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[zyxst.net:+,messagingengine.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.25)[-0.245]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[64.147.123.24:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.24:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:07:54 -0000 --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, It seems the problem was caused by having WITH_ZONEINFO_LEAPSECONDS_SUPPORT defined in /etc/src.conf. It goes away if world+kernel is rebuilt+installed= =20 with it removed. The problem manifest itself on both the 12-stable desktop and the 13-current vm because world was built on both systems and from the 12-stable system /etc/src.conf was copied across to the 13-current vm. I'd never have guesse= d=20 this was the issue, especially as iridium on the *same* desktop system didn= 't=20 show the same problem. Maybe a note about the possible effects of WITH_ZONEINFO_LEAPSECONDS_SUPPOR= T=20 needs to be in src.conf(5) ? https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D248338 many thanks to everyone with their assistance with this, the problems been= =20 bugging me for months ;) --=20 J. --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl8iR4oACgkQs8o7QhFz NAWYKg//aa+nb0pubYpnbRJjsAQhrr0WzsmN2bsemdSUcaBrsNvvu5AhzucIBKi7 UKh7BWfqke16O45fGb2atLdUNHP+vo8vqymK4wZv7uZDC8Mb6/w3hrq25BMBuGU/ hbkXLXzeqBJU3YqHrTDDDqLwV//umBphkENiy7B4Dg25gHOg/v81zWIxZtymdkqF tYXw4LkFeeueTkZGF9xxHn094PLqQCor0vEVjLKpd5X9xEnhbTYwqi7izDWJldwq RIDSo/e703DXsg1nOktPtgZT0018ySU4I7H5NoWzxzMoiMjfmiONOZb8kbAEb39U +Lmhs1B/NhKaXBSKF7CLo6PgECCTgSOIAfWNeNX8aeFETwgOW0tQsaXhlr/CoYDz MNxJXor+qTCfT3mhTXcDi205CG79fn5KaNF3ID2D8HAXyQLcNo9S5KRFyWXh0haE Z+znvId4rE8e0cdm6FcffzqV26KnEZhdiPW128GohT7pTs3pVT3X4paHfewIhkr0 3IUhly2jR/3GaqLkdpKFlBdkXfuojYTYL889jnHif/dTVf54Jo6PjI0jSgBfuP/b z//a7JU8Nodvg5xwUEeaqMsvjZyzQSVlphjIy/RecZiUnh0BsQak9vb8uTsIaRYX qu/StyWBMtjvp15OTOLHRNgxhlCLLrjt/qk3/kc78fBl5+Zr/kM= =lXOO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gKMricLos+KVdGMg-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 06:08:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D9E379B18 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:08:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHKjB2dKVz3X3j for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To; bh=fUQiGjWkywdmw9NNFriLp1hpTY+6t7qwZJlG5R7q5do=; b=MP7Yn6FWQi9rK/yeoBSYbv9+j/ 1CDlZPd9ROhaixLAfn95AArdM88+ouSa/w0/QISi3417e9agScnXnTG+5fOKePd/YDJEBzZ4PG5V7 pYlE3WqtDJO3AmAAKJ3BhrhoG+QuwaN9jLJ1xSeF2ZTvO20C8gSHRdRU8iKeEinM7RoQ=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1k11jr-0005sp-2U for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:08:23 +0700 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:08:23 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: comparing top and htop output for memory Message-ID: <20200730060823.GA22448@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM" Content-Disposition: inline X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHKjB2dKVz3X3j X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=MP7Yn6FW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.033]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.324]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:08:31 -0000 --yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Colleagues, htop gives a simplified output (used/buffers/cache) for free RAM. I think ZFS ARC is counted under "cache". On a certain box, it shows 24.5G as "used". On the same box, top gives a more detailed output: =20 Mem: 21G Active, 10G Inact, 13G Wired, 639M Buf, 15G Free ARC: 10G Total, 1142M MFU, 9057M MRU, 84M Anon, 60M Header, 102M Other Which of those above would go under the 24G of "used" according to htop? It's probably 21G of active + I need to account for 3G more. The total amount of RAM is 61G (which htop shows but top does not). But=20 22G Active+10G Inact+13G Wired+639M Buf+15G Free is indeed 61G --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJfImPXAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0QcsH/01NyPGXYEcvbajqPn9sSlyo tR8+3bb6c/ZIwh0VCwIP/OvyXkJgQ2m+xgux1Pvgalfh6m6VyB+uUweATjbU5k7k bFedluhVP/2MblWABdOLUnuJ/jCotSpOmpMV2Bh9Xh57CGuloew99rVynUUuZ/X6 Yb3ThFWarLxTrIXQAnPTczqXl9/+HU47AwdFPMfjqr3HlH9nUvnCfxNnPSgKhv4v DcwwXliMaAHad6Wy/y6Xep4VOLSi+bQAnZU4ka9NPyc1AeSZe3JrclikoIFchlzl IKe2SBXS4BfZCMoTNlT4QwOXdd1hYm+GZzYP02UFJTyfFP3YK7f8DqpKyntq7wY= =5TvU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 11:41:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF3E3A256A for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:41:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic311-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic311-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.204]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHT5N6G1qz4Dsp for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:41:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: rjwxE5MVM1kdlS0_nISYnXO.lSBTlDoSqrmXw7WKEIFuvIgcMD_Q52urTv5Rzhn 1RIUYUQ2y1sk8qFntySTlzsV1hkxgQfaGuOgVXDZF4cg9Ns8BFLewqvIGOsCSP7lMnI22NUAipYh 2ejksZnGcs4DYngODn_rRVUgPQxDrZRkq86rdA2A6h8p69BkYecW4NTb.N_jZeKBUm7NMXMBzdh8 c_pbEPQvu8qt_V1Za0OGfC84OOGO8YedOnhqc9eCSh7C5eHACMGwVLvjE9oKv2yi14cp5nG0_MzQ kWWSZOMV2w9dxRww9SUZcLn4x92377h4hHu38abiLsBEXZcyGW8SRAKa38ZeP0UBssgt_C8i9ezU FLR7IroimFwlQGm9zkT1ifcliSr9rRLKiGCz2NyySWooa3PoADrgb8SYHg1vrbSjWgqcAm_uHNvo bdPqea_hJeB50TWWI1DMyeKK7BjGbtPh3WgCu7EjuJOgC1z9gV9yjm0QuKTekuFKWBcPNJymQUJd 4lTJYstouRK.aJcRQdziOzB4pyWVE7xmqIxQLknidKLzpuPiIRi7C6uEF1t2urguwhzCxwGRpToA lPcTV0SuHy2IjSK1dMCFDT0dUjQ_imcMCDDOm3W0P7zpJZ0cg9uQgvBMYSkkWimWlPXBvgh4eacr NGO_PoX63qKHsY6CLYFZ5IHxr_sisPLjE8uhXx64RZJkuf8Vx5Ka72yrPXkKEYyM7bh6Uj77DiZm wCXSP6Eb_PiHh62euai1U7aupX6BMGx8tIqckurzHmZ2YSUEIJFTIHoqAyEawX7_ZslIBSev8uaQ yWiwAzVXmgvKq6LUkoKBp4HLRm2GgjdILimXHAi7TXLy4yI7CzyXkKOAcU2X.IaSc_p2bDftOi7D YrBz0Vbqx4iN2EjyjHRvOpu4hRT8SNbYZYziCOtmTOGZg2UCq94RhTPLqFu1Vllnf6eAI_p91l69 yDQxOhBOYxT5r6WhbRoQ44ySupgkM8u2GVQBIBD1OHSjZjm0PmVVLYRgDHEdBA54vMCPkcGvGDIQ NvkVTkHQ8tOurneQhPIFAowjcFpEKzM_QmrMY0XFVZUMx4d4tNcBD_MFWT6WROQuLBUF1vpxcbKd ZP_7FVQFKgg4ppgsx3DoPoXEnBVCNMV7ddJKPZFWtwMNAmy5bO_Y0KmvwJJwNNXInmhdrzyAyymZ WfeWVGd6wEojp5jueA2tm48asduqrZcAoj1h627mUX6w1AtjPpuRtV3ecjhDX0LYMhQgi5nFHl.U CL.TAZwmglp0als3iY_wrTLwlDXjHlaLe4FRTmld8oPvmVNK44sWqAWkTW_pmivGmDZxvaC_gFE8 G7lJIx49G0Kke9IAHxRqjRsSmM4cKnsQVOU0ZmKbqqrQq1bdxtUc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:41:27 +0000 Received: by smtp410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 99a065de87d1dac9e0bca93ae55ee882; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:41:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id m16so13842207pls.5 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ObYvL/IqPEDg499W1RVOHKC4dXwu5MGM52O2xd3/3WFBnpkVH 1qPm4jTWSYSAeiN2QBSPUYSWhmMK72/JR0MgGMw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2XN/mmNlLnQtanbBlGfCdxXLoxdlaeljhLarMTBDIHGwKbSHHX+yZQntSWnDDnf+8R3oq71bTOQUsvlVEsaE= X-Received: by 2002:a63:6582:: with SMTP id z124mr2600682pgb.70.1596109284595; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:41:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:41:08 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: VGA false positive in dmesg? To: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" References: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16271 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHT5N6G1qz4Dsp X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.01 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.285]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.985]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.038]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.188.204:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.188.204:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:41:29 -0000 Hi, I've launched a FreeBSD 12.1 instance in qemu (pay attention to "-vga none"). Host is Linux: qemu-system-x86_64 \ -drive if=virtio,file=/home/oc/VM/img/freebsd.image,index=0,media=disk \ -M q35,accel=kvm -m 250M -cpu host -smp $(nproc) \ -nic user,hostfwd=tcp:127.0.0.1:5554-:22,model=virtio-net-pci \ -daemonize -display none -vga none \ -serial mon:telnet:127.0.0.1:6664,server,nowait \ In the guest: oc@FreeBSD:~ % pciconf -vl hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x11001af4 chip=0x29c08086 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '82G33/G31/P35/P31 Express DRAM Controller' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI virtio_pci0@pci0:0:1:0: class=0x020000 card=0x00011af4 chip=0x10001af4 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Red Hat, Inc.' device = 'Virtio network device' class = network subclass = ethernet virtio_pci1@pci0:0:2:0: class=0x010000 card=0x00021af4 chip=0x10011af4 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Red Hat, Inc.' device = 'Virtio block device' class = mass storage subclass = SCSI virtio_pci2@pci0:0:3:0: class=0x010000 card=0x00021af4 chip=0x10011af4 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Red Hat, Inc.' device = 'Virtio block device' class = mass storage subclass = SCSI isab0@pci0:0:31:0: class=0x060100 card=0x11001af4 chip=0x29188086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '82801IB (ICH9) LPC Interface Controller' class = bridge subclass = PCI-ISA ahci0@pci0:0:31:2: class=0x010601 card=0x11001af4 chip=0x29228086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '82801IR/IO/IH (ICH9R/DO/DH) 6 port SATA Controller [AHCI mode]' class = mass storage subclass = SATA none0@pci0:0:31:3: class=0x0c0500 card=0x11001af4 chip=0x29308086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '82801I (ICH9 Family) SMBus Controller' class = serial bus subclass = SMBus However, in dmesg: oc@FreeBSD:~ % dmesg | grep -i vga VT(vga): text 80x25 vtvga0: on motherboard vga0: at port 0x3b0-0x3bb iomem 0xb0000-0xb7fff pnpid PNP0900 on isa0 I don't know how to interpret this output. I don't think it's a qemu issue, because I've done the same with NetBSD and OpenBSD guests and there's no trace of vga in their dmesg. Does FreeBSD use the VGA driver also for the serial console? Thanks -- Ottavio Caruso A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 13:55:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577123A5FF6 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:55:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHX3c2g0Kz4PTG; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:55:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE314A5C1; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:55:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2OU2oIyl3tb; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 353474A5B6; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:55:04 -0400 Message-ID: <7fa512bd47eae8547d772731e14eb174.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: <20200729111005.69aba9bf@FreeBSD.org> References: <927fbf2aa31817ad0939bc7557591bf4.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> <20200729111005.69aba9bf@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:55:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Cups on FreeBSd-12.1p7 From: "James B. Byrne" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22T=C4=B3l_Coosemans=22?= Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHX3c2g0Kz4PTG X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.50 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.002]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.037]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.76)[-0.759]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:55:09 -0000 On Wed, July 29, 2020 05:10, Tijl Coosemans wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:46:25 -0400 "James B. Byrne via > freebsd-questions" wrote: >> Following a pkg upgrade the printers on my desktop stopped working. I use >> cups and I see this in /var/log/cups/error.log . . . >> (gs_ll3.ps) 1 Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave IdiomSet 7 >> Pscript5Idiom.pkgsave > > The pkgsave extension is used by pkg when it has to install a file over > an existing file. It renames the existing file with this extension then. > Pscript5Idiom should be in /usr/local/share/ghostscript/9.52/Resource/IdiomSet/ > So my guess is something went wrong with the registration of the > ghostscript package during a previous upgrade. You can just remove this > file. Maybe you should also search your system for other pkgsave files. > > Thank you very much. I have eliminated the problematic files and directories, run 'pkg check --shlibs --dependencies --checksums --all', and forced the install of all reported packages. The print service now works again. Still cannot get cups-pdf to work but that is another problem for another day. Thank you. -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 20:04:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A3D3ADD14 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:04:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHhFH138Lz3cHP for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:04:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872CA4AE53 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:04:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VrwBYRWXXgVG for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C52454AE48 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:03:59 -0400 Message-ID: <62693624b2f310cc9683ed6b05d246b6.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:03:59 -0400 Subject: Q. ntp pseudo service in a jail From: "James B. Byrne" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHhFH138Lz3cHP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.00 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26:c]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.336]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.953]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:04:03 -0000 I need a jail to provide responses to ntp queries. I do not need (or want) the jail to adjust the system time. I just need it to provide whatever time the host OS has whenever it is queried. Can this requirement be met? -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 20:45:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85AE3AE7C3 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:45:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) Received: from radel.com (fly.radel.com [70.184.242.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.radel.com", Issuer "GoGetSSL RSA DV CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHj8q0BW3z3fJ2 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:45:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.19.2 (ClamAV engine v0.99.2) X-ExtFilter: Niversoft's DomainKeys Helper DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=IOAU8yAMLYjetER3mMs80/iBR4YMplyPw71m+kY1ywnfha2plOGDZrzV5JWDVZB8K6 fPnw8/7GRmXGToO6VMrflCUnWFyLyPNZJlTiRxBxJTneMzVIZMMi4QiJjK52HnEFYF8h in8VZMJYdOioMu+ICpBrhkEEIr/e6DY/DT4ja9kv/ickqiGfHTkQwI+z8zgAO0v9P2Zx D42mX/0vr//vOM+4W1n1Xnd7GusTQhzBfXJ6CuiJ9b0zfKptutMH7FikJGYzxfmaN4F0 FmULpNaclww3w3CImVCwraL2qeIG4/mNqeBGs1v2oIJKSfQXRsT/3WAvlPsynah7K5gX yg8A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; t=1596141908; x=1596746708; q=dns/txt; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; bh=93xhwFoeLkl k9OsPQd74Xu+clojFnhQzHj0vS3YGmOU=; b=j2bgCMCandMmQSR76fKd4ul5VcZ IcL/0i2hrk2CbIDjabIoSufT2stELiTNcBPboJLzGfFhG+l7QmzE46YgUqrU7QFC bY5TPnuXRtjuOr7ACH4nkqtBFvYFpKDTCX3bKlQBS2SHp1GPsTSyh7pSvz9CeQRc Chz7EcxDdadzlRJGgeqH/cZeVWp1pl+5K5wqPmXueDujOsVMZG78+Fq0iTD7IXNW iXQfK3WJGo7PIwRKGU+fsU4R/84V+xzzCzaMegOJS/G3NCKo5NaLt33/aLmb5v/y WjlppSKwT5BfsLl1D+yXkC9JEdrgOVyGwZaSz1ZdS+5mCjHneTDZ09/PZ8Q== Received: from [2001:470:880a:4389:d46b:2d8f:651f:5940] (account jon@radel.com HELO haralson.local) by radel.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14 _community_) with ESMTPSA id 2200216 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:45:08 +0000 Subject: Re: Q. ntp pseudo service in a jail To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <62693624b2f310cc9683ed6b05d246b6.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: Jon Radel Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:45:07 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <62693624b2f310cc9683ed6b05d246b6.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms040801030606040101010007" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHj8q0BW3z3fJ2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=radel.com header.s=20170108.radel header.b=j2bgCMCa; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=radel.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jon@radel.com designates 70.184.242.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jon@radel.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[radel.com:s=20170108.radel]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:70.184.242.160/28]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[radel.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.08)[0.082]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[radel.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[radel.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22773, ipnet:70.184.240.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:45:16 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040801030606040101010007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 7/30/20 16:03, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > I need a jail to provide responses to ntp queries. I do not need (or w= ant) the > jail to adjust the system time. I just need it to provide whatever tim= e the > host OS has whenever it is queried. Can this requirement be met? > > > You can probably do what you want with the reference ntpd code if you set it up to have only a LOCAL driver.=C2=A0 This takes the system clock = as the source of truth. See http://doc.ntp.org/4.2.0/drivers/driver1.html If you prefer ntpsec, see https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/prefer.html for a few further thoughts on using LOCAL with that daemon. Make sure to set a really high stratum with fudge so that people don't have to hate on you if you leak the quite possibly crap time further than you expect. --=20 --Jon Radel jon@radel.com --------------ms040801030606040101010007 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC C9owggXmMIIDzqADAgECAhBqm+E4O/8ra58B1dm4p1JWMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBDAUAMIGFMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxm b3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDErMCkGA1UEAxMiQ09NT0RPIFJTQSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw0xMzAxMTAwMDAwMDBaFw0yODAxMDkyMzU5NTla MIGXMQswCQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQH EwdTYWxmb3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDE9MDsGA1UEAxM0Q09NT0RP 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<62693624b2f310cc9683ed6b05d246b6.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Sierchio Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Q. ntp pseudo service in a jail To: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHjMY2BPDz3fs4 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=UGZXjGf3; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.21)[-0.213]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.55)[-0.551]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.687]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:54:34 -0000 On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 1:45 PM Jon Radel wrote: > On 7/30/20 16:03, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > > I need a jail to provide responses to ntp queries. I do not need (or > want) the > > jail to adjust the system time. I just need it to provide whatever tim= e > the > > host OS has whenever it is queried. Can this requirement be met? > > > > > > > You can probably do what you want with the reference ntpd code if you > set it up to have only a LOCAL driver. This takes the system clock as > the source of truth. server 127.127.1.0 fudge 127.127.1.0 stratum 5 > > Make sure to set a really high stratum with fudge so that people don't > have to hate on you if you leak the quite possibly crap time further > than you expect. > > LOCAL is going to get time from the host, right? Clocks are shared. --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jul 30 21:24:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3D33AF84A for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:24:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) Received: from radel.com (fly.radel.com [70.184.242.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.radel.com", Issuer "GoGetSSL RSA DV CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHk1w4D6cz3yZ5 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:24:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.19.2 (ClamAV engine v0.99.2) X-ExtFilter: Niversoft's DomainKeys Helper DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=ILhkTTxzjWo86lExJKTmNobjGMLyZWlblWoE2iTVvmA4l6vrCl5YO8N9PJNWaKMpAj kCMvUbP4wDHmzud4f2fwTX2fzwTPF4q9n3RxmzaMg4lfkLgo//zyU5b76DoZtmvvyq6p aigR9P6w4sIEv5yYNJv5uklv2Hh2q4HKXRDFo9nmrIk9jxdEiCg44zP6rmJacnnJHE6f q/DcWrpIH73vCSrKJUXeXwznHQtZ9qtv3dmTvlX0ehoGli1stm0ttZZSZqL4Zins0qZt CJO8mZDSF5wcShgct0LMjWznd57+XUGWQs9+sPWAE1VYkhZaNr8VkqO4QlYuckCgJcQY EWQA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; t=1596144259; x=1596749059; q=dns/txt; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; bh=3K8hH/lPwzx BBUUZFZF87VEERrNueXhHVYkb9FPoGmc=; b=0CXM60xhjVn/sINYkdM4TVMzShW e8ImawbDPmJ4OIM8Uwu76n8SNLOhryOJhACdfCjsQ+C1dHZKfWTF9fhw+H1HfAms A8PBu0aZYkAOBq35dDYbkf+idVYPFnXGQTuPa/sW6yyF2q/DHm694ZTvA2wQieGc E8pj5cNC5NMRqYtUCnExYNx8xjUi5m1ZiNlnnC7qzZ0ahPv4M6Cu7voHw4vrXbE4 99tS2Wcw1TMEY/10MvYRhF0k5V+82pPkJ/Ng4zSKa4d2LYFSWMR9D/8+YVAvPz8P F8xkW0Hjhf4OVL/t7qXJb5bHzcPrtXT9N8RulpK2nqmtAd9r8eIUM0n4uxQ== Received: from [2001:470:880a:4389:d46b:2d8f:651f:5940] (account jon@radel.com HELO haralson.local) by radel.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14 _community_) with ESMTPSA id 2200240 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:23:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Q. ntp pseudo service in a jail To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <62693624b2f310cc9683ed6b05d246b6.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: Jon Radel Message-ID: <68690da5-4a02-b3fc-896a-350b9d78f7a8@radel.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:23:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms000507030502000007030204" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BHk1w4D6cz3yZ5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=radel.com header.s=20170108.radel header.b=0CXM60xh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=radel.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jon@radel.com designates 70.184.242.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jon@radel.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.26 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[radel.com:s=20170108.radel]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:70.184.242.160/28:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/alternative,text/plain]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[radel.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[radel.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[radel.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.153]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~,4:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22773, ipnet:70.184.240.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:24:21 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000507030502000007030204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/30/20 16:53, Michael Sierchio wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 1:45 PM Jon Radel wrote: > >> On 7/30/20 16:03, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> I need a jail to provide responses to ntp queries. I do not need (or= >> want) the >>> jail to adjust the system time. I just need it to provide whatever t= ime >> the >>> host OS has whenever it is queried. Can this requirement be met? >>> >>> >>> >> You can probably do what you want with the reference ntpd code if you >> set it up to have only a LOCAL driver. This takes the system clock as= >> the source of truth. > > server 127.127.1.0 > fudge 127.127.1.0 stratum 5 Higher than 5 is smiled upon; see https://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Support/UndisciplinedLocalClock where server 127.127.1.0 fudge 127.127.1.0 stratum 10 is suggested. > > >> Make sure to set a really high stratum with fudge so that people don't= >> have to hate on you if you leak the quite possibly crap time further >> than you expect. >> >> > LOCAL is going to get time from the host, right? Clocks are shared. I'm probably missing the point of what you're saying.... My point is that is that the OP appears to wish to setup a local ntp server with undisciplined time.=C2=A0 (No Internet access & no local hard= ware clock???)=C2=A0 If there is no connection of any sort to the rest of the world, nobody will much care, but if there is any risk of any external device trusting this ntp server, or any of its downstream ntp servers, then it is far better that the time be associated with a very high stratum number, to greatly reduce the risk that any device mistake this time as being accurate.=C2=A0 I'm unclear on what this has to do with sha= red clocks, whatever that may be. --=20 --Jon Radel jon@radel.com --------------ms000507030502000007030204 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC 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freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D2036A260 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 23:42:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au [203.41.22.115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2560 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au", Issuer "Heuristic Systems Type 4 Host CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BHn5T2GHYz46HD for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 23:42:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from [10.0.5.3] (noddy.hs [10.0.5.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 06UNgAg1078974 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 09:42:11 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=heuristicsystems.com.au; s=hsa; t=1596152531; x=1596757332; bh=AjOqCe7wMmz6uimX0ycpCsDzTmSKuN2Uu86Um77DZJQ=; h=Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date; b=WgaE3pDGZcy26mN2sCsU+vUw6k4h41NwcqddCYx7s+S2FansWx++ymV3VC6j4YokT /oBGY+sBi3ZX1svXKCx6LpLO4V5SEPVZyYLOOlyxdvt2tJSuWToRlIzDKhfh5gTj9n IfUp5UwFH4Moo95J+QIz3tURJla6kgI05Tlz/T0+rCyHFnR8wQPhC X-Authentication-Warning: b3.hs: Host noddy.hs [10.0.5.3] claimed to be [10.0.5.3] Subject: Re: Q. ntp pseudo service in a jail To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <62693624b2f310cc9683ed6b05d246b6.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: Dewayne Geraghty Autocrypt: addr=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQFNBFbOsVMBCgDfvi2PspSwoMEtFhF+aFLQKtzSA9f0dhDqthKHESdfbqxvKzhkBjvTJ5Na 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mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=heuristicsystems.com.au header.s=hsa header.b=WgaE3pDG; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au designates 203.41.22.115 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.46 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[heuristicsystems.com.au:s=hsa]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.005]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[203.41.22.115:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.25)[-0.251]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1221, ipnet:203.40.0.0/13, country:AU]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 23:42:39 -0000 On 31/07/2020 6:03 am, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > I need a jail to provide responses to ntp queries. I do not need (or want) the > jail to adjust the system time. I just need it to provide whatever time the > host OS has whenever it is queried. Can this requirement be met? > > > I use /etc/ntp.conf extract: server 127.127.1.1 fudge 127.127.1.1 stratum 14 as the failover when I've lost internet time sync. It retains service synchronisation for those internal services that rely upon time (bind with gssapi), as well as serve the client (PC) devices. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jul 31 17:38:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5DF37DF78 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:38:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BJDz33bsqz3WBx for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:38:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: OT tmux Message-Id: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:38:37 -0600 To: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3649) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BJDz33bsqz3WBx X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.012]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.941]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.481]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:38:40 -0000 I tried to subscribe to the Tmux-user list on source forge, but SF = rejects the subscription email with a user unknown error. Does anyone = know of a tmux list that is working? (I=E2=80=99ve been using it for some time, but am now at the point where = I am trying to do non-obvious things). --=20 7-Up? What happened to Ups 1-6?= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jul 31 18:26:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E6837F1EF for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:26:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BJG2n01MYz3YSL for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:26:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Loggin fiference between two 12.1 installs Message-Id: <4B6964F3-0D7E-4468-AABA-6C59F44FEB72@kreme.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:26:54 -0600 To: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3649) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BJG2n01MYz3YSL X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.95 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.970]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.580]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:26:57 -0000 I have two 12.1 machines, both up to date, one is 12.1 x86 and the other = is 12.1 amd64. When logging attempts to login vi ssh, the logging lines = appear differently: 12.1 x86: Jul 29 14:50:48 mail.covisp.net sshd[67412] Invalid user service from = 178.93.152.59 port 62677 12.1 amd64: Jul 18 14:24:06 ns2 sshd[73208]: Invalid user pi from 213.162.73.228 = port 16977 As you may notice, the second line contains a ':' after the [PID] and = the first does not. (This caused a week or so of email exchanges with Kevin Zheng off-list = of the sshguard-users list about sshguard not working properly one the = 12.1 x86 system before noticing the absent colon.) So, my question is why are the log lines different? Is there some = configuration that I may have changed? Where and what do I check? --=20 "An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching." -Mohandas = Gandhi= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jul 31 18:37:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8617837F939 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:37:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andipersti@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BJGHT1w1Nz3YVh for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:37:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andipersti@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id c15so13337249edj.3 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:37:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Jo2t5+itOIcK9M7U3f7MjiIZzl644PHSdXWI4ULa0is=; b=ACDERlugYPuNgS7Ki9AlkkWRkqw+HfHfIHeRbiwCl/IR1HyHbS6nusToBBdddqvm27 kTTrHC1tktrDJyy211hqI2HngOcb7r79JHXacWAzxs1k/EGvO6bFz+iLcCzS+LupABgi H1xr+0FbTHYPDXquXPdIbrLHnSRA5VS4u1QzUw8FQ2oaG1FsctY3xPm94XJTcSkDyy61 qScbXys9ufaba1LWE2oJBuNENN85ls6QurHSeigL7uRqDrsvomIHsmigC26wFrD2A+Ue lq75dlkzeiHkywEBR23Zgys0cNpTn+5G8Iddgvzm6QQcCIFRNTxwxiyhnsy0mzvu5ved HFbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Jo2t5+itOIcK9M7U3f7MjiIZzl644PHSdXWI4ULa0is=; b=aXhJb5MCOx40HXEmPhPHCuxp9h8BFdBhr0l3Ah7rpuf1siz7jc01AlDvVRiaKU8hM1 /wimZNRu510Dst83BSV6olKLUdsNwigE61CXbvejhkemJKRHe/QJ/FsFfKsiRIod4owV UKZM3FZFrl52JMuwokaBemBc/nXkxGTC6ME7KLJj5zWyQ9HIq0DxPlLsKFnXq3dAyhtJ fPeFAoPcsk3hJBAX5DNZsv9wZwLeZhlE7SSdt7ojM4u2LN9xEhGWrbq94rK8xQzDC53v JwBRXeEHnU3XyhfT+q67aZ2/pzTOW61rF+Eg+pDtjjkhJhstyWZbP3jrjbD7Jaz19pfr A1bA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LA619I5Ak20Y19OSDAVJqeU57Gps35aVAjNmRNfTR3mgGL6gz 7IJrJ7fkC82VhKFJ1SkPM8iiP0R7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzw02JPKhvVVyLn3/ZnI2gjLNy/Uw6EIa7WAi540pWM0w3DZnTFi/XWgbo4UBF5y85Iwnejdw== X-Received: by 2002:a50:e046:: with SMTP id g6mr5370135edl.210.1596220675003; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] (91-118-242-180.static.upcbusiness.at. [91.118.242.180]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z17sm7023021edi.19.2020.07.31.11.37.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: OT tmux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Andreas Perstinger Message-ID: <375f49bf-0300-dcdc-02c6-0aa88021d4fc@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 20:37:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BJGHT1w1Nz3YVh X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ACDERlug; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of andipersti@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::529 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=andipersti@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.22 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.047]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::529:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.17)[-0.173]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:37:58 -0000 On 31.07.20 19:38, @lbutlr wrote: > Does anyone know of a tmux list that is working? The list hosted by Google Groups is active: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tmux-users You can subscribe by sending an email to tmux-users+subscribe@googlegroups.com Bye, Andreas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 1 04:54:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9064C36D76E for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 04:54:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gobble.wa@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com (mail-ej1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BJWyV5q0Yz4LKp for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 04:54:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gobble.wa@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id o23so5949441ejr.1 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:54:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=muIyq09ZqZjc6n5DCrygyKfzSDkKaLqd8hrVS5olUpY=; b=MDE72JKQuYrKgZZIX1V0ffsmQdTcj6xbT1oJKwlqR0xWF0SmV7c3o/ZKdYhb6woK0J aj+918KqYKLkbYNAqYW4cjImjVb0rH61CPssbMCBY93VpDdfox6SCSMBkR2Gchs7th32 2UCBUlqgT+dNFM2SMsBs26K+B8BdnzFm7pq7UDlnoKPRIVJeWlGxh4/4G7BsfZR0xg0C PQLOb0xM9Khp3Zi30Q5bk8mGNt/D4kbpcW+UOAt4XqSOLAdASfEdKD9iieo7nkzwqPYQ TSCxvVQFY/cVEiD8g3Eav+CN5jF2JsazesHPdtO4IxrktmtkELEi+L4Do9IKWLwy2O2m 9o0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=muIyq09ZqZjc6n5DCrygyKfzSDkKaLqd8hrVS5olUpY=; b=clEF+v/fkYMOxAm8nkJW9gSbPpFD0YhFoUWpFPYcUsNuFjW7pnZPKMnYUmvzfC6crv zb7S12vKYMUCRlP8t20yBka2fU33y0BE7dL9GnQKwEMBu+2ajp/1L+utRAE3e3y0BOkr s1oOPF7TI9qujhZ97KopkU8gEK5qcsOA0se3eFppMfAhGnxaPrH0jLfkSe2THS4h1ud8 C8KBwW6VmDZLV2k4MkoCzjIs3sO3nayuLwtmZC2x4lqRTrVaWlXBzOie2kFmZXZ9m/2R AVCsotifyb5oFDcmJoAFTK0EXw8eQeK4ZjyCQzqSN8loJtcqWAwKoxZ4KGJAfMEppXsR hLrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZX52c7j1c9db03hCkECQ7Pq8d30nqG1Nt2zKzlALMR+Cmiq1O RgudeiQ5C+ku9nH3mDkWxAU+8a3d1mOm4aPzSM19tVgRxCE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNiafYXiqPupGLy4twlPZwSgvIua1aIQEK8pCWzr4g7VnhhwJBw8RBdf67L6pqtYiPda1dcM64G0KfQseMZjo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:bce9:: with SMTP id op9mr7391475ejb.462.1596257649000; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:54:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Waitman Gobble Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 00:53:58 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Question about evdev and joystick. devfs rules To: FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BJWyV5q0Yz4LKp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=MDE72JKQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gobblewa@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::634 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gobblewa@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.35 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::634:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.35)[-0.354]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 04:54:11 -0000 When I plug in a USB game pad / joystick and open fd, use libevev_new_from_fd I get access denied if I'm not root. I think we used to have to set devfs rules but not sure if we are supposed to set up access in /etc/devfs.rules for /dev/input/event* devices? Maybe I just give myself permission to all /dev/input/event* ? however, It seems that the keyboard and mouse are connected to /dev/input/event* and I obviously already have permission to access those devices, so that part is a bit confusing to me. This device connected to /dev/input/event7 today. If I query as 'regular' user fd = open("/dev/input/event7", O_RDONLY | O_NONBLOCK); rc = libevdev_new_from_fd(fd, &dev); Error: Failed to init libevdev (Bad file descriptor) But as root, i can query device. Input device name: "Microsoft X-Box 360 pad" Input device ID: bus 0x3 vendor 0x45e product 0x28e Input device GUID 030000005e0400008e02000070010000 0 - Joystick has button: 0x130 - BTN_SOUTH 1 - Joystick has button: 0x131 - BTN_EAST 2 - Joystick has button: 0x133 - BTN_NORTH 3 - Joystick has button: 0x134 - BTN_WEST 4 - Joystick has button: 0x136 - BTN_TL 5 - Joystick has button: 0x137 - BTN_TR 6 - Joystick has button: 0x13a - BTN_SELECT 7 - Joystick has button: 0x13b - BTN_START 8 - Joystick has button: 0x13c - BTN_MODE 9 - Joystick has button: 0x13d - BTN_THUMBL 10 - Joystick has button: 0x13e - BTN_THUMBR Joystick has absolute axis: 0x00 - ABS_X Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } Joystick has absolute axis: 0x01 - ABS_Y Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } Joystick has absolute axis: 0x02 - ABS_Z Values = { 0, 0, 255, 0, 0 } Joystick has absolute axis: 0x03 - ABS_RX Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } Joystick has absolute axis: 0x04 - ABS_RY Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } Joystick has absolute axis: 0x05 - ABS_RZ Values = { 0, 0, 255, 0, 0 } Joystick has hat 0 Values = { 0, -1, 1, 0, 0 } Hat 0 Axis 1 Value -1 Hat 0 Axis 1 Value 0 Hat 0 Axis 1 Value 1 Hat 0 Axis 1 Value 0 Hat 0 Axis 0 Value 1 Hat 0 Axis 0 Value 0 Hat 0 Axis 0 Value -1 Hat 0 Axis 0 Value 0 Button 0 Button 0 Button 1 Button 1 Button 3 Button 3 Button 2 Button 2 -- Waitman Gobble From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 1 05:02:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E1E3688E0 for ; 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FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 05:02:42 -0000 On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 12:53 AM Waitman Gobble wrote: > > When I plug in a USB game pad / joystick and open fd, use > libevev_new_from_fd I get access denied if I'm not root. I think we > used to have to set devfs rules but not sure if we are supposed to set > up access in /etc/devfs.rules for /dev/input/event* devices? Maybe I > just give myself permission to all /dev/input/event* > ? > > however, It seems that the keyboard and mouse are connected to > /dev/input/event* and I obviously already have permission to access > those devices, so that part is a bit confusing to me. > > > This device connected to /dev/input/event7 today. > > If I query as 'regular' user > > fd = open("/dev/input/event7", O_RDONLY | O_NONBLOCK); > rc = libevdev_new_from_fd(fd, &dev); > > Error: Failed to init libevdev (Bad file descriptor) > > > But as root, i can query device. > > > Input device name: "Microsoft X-Box 360 pad" > Input device ID: bus 0x3 vendor 0x45e product 0x28e > Input device GUID 030000005e0400008e02000070010000 > > > 0 - Joystick has button: 0x130 - BTN_SOUTH > 1 - Joystick has button: 0x131 - BTN_EAST > 2 - Joystick has button: 0x133 - BTN_NORTH > 3 - Joystick has button: 0x134 - BTN_WEST > 4 - Joystick has button: 0x136 - BTN_TL > 5 - Joystick has button: 0x137 - BTN_TR > 6 - Joystick has button: 0x13a - BTN_SELECT > 7 - Joystick has button: 0x13b - BTN_START > 8 - Joystick has button: 0x13c - BTN_MODE > 9 - Joystick has button: 0x13d - BTN_THUMBL > 10 - Joystick has button: 0x13e - BTN_THUMBR > > > Joystick has absolute axis: 0x00 - ABS_X > Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } > Joystick has absolute axis: 0x01 - ABS_Y > Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } > Joystick has absolute axis: 0x02 - ABS_Z > Values = { 0, 0, 255, 0, 0 } > Joystick has absolute axis: 0x03 - ABS_RX > Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } > Joystick has absolute axis: 0x04 - ABS_RY > Values = { 0, -32768, 32767, 16, 128 } > Joystick has absolute axis: 0x05 - ABS_RZ > Values = { 0, 0, 255, 0, 0 } > > > Joystick has hat 0 > Values = { 0, -1, 1, 0, 0 } > > Hat 0 Axis 1 Value -1 > Hat 0 Axis 1 Value 0 > Hat 0 Axis 1 Value 1 > Hat 0 Axis 1 Value 0 > Hat 0 Axis 0 Value 1 > Hat 0 Axis 0 Value 0 > Hat 0 Axis 0 Value -1 > Hat 0 Axis 0 Value 0 > Button 0 > Button 0 > Button 1 > Button 1 > Button 3 > Button 3 > Button 2 > Button 2 > > OOPs, I checked. I suppose webcamd is taking it. # ls -lh /dev/input/event7 crw-rw---- 1 webcamd webcamd 0xad Aug 1 00:13 /dev/input/event7 -- Waitman Gobble