From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:44:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1498A16A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:44:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9634113C461 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:44:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47769C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:44:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEC71ACD; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:34:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:34:30 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:44:20 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Dag-Erling Smørgrav spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:48 +0100: > Timo Schoeler writes: > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: > > > Those people clearly don't understand the FreeBSD development > > > model. > > So, the FreeBSD development model does neither care in case the tree > > breaks (read: is unbuildable, or in the direction of being > > unbuildable soon, or in the direction of becoming of lesser quality > > than it was in any time before)? I doubt this. > > Plurium Interrogationum. Your question presupposes that FreeBSD is or > will soon be unbuildable and / or that its quality decreases over > time. The quality decrease could be felt, and was felt by too many people. > That is far from the case. In fact, we have very strong QA > mechanisms in place to ensure that it does not happen. Better ones than those that were there years ago are *now* in place or being implemented. > If you > believe otherwise, you are misinformed, deluded or malicious. I don't 'believe'. > > > This "no interest" bit is completely fundamental. Code gets > > > written by the people who have an interest in it, either because > > > they need it themselves, or because they find it intellectually > > > satisfying, or because someone donated unsupported hardware, or > > > because someone paid them to do it. > > Setting the last two points you made aside, it's good, but not > > perfect. Code should be written and commited if it's needed. The > > example of the HD sound was bad, see my other mail (later). > > OK, very slowly now: > > That is not how collaborative open source development works. On Linux it works like this, everyone does what (s)he wants, and a few gurus (Torvalds etc) have hard times to concentrate on the important things. The BSDs have/had a different approach, and this was well known throughout the community and is still said in case somebody asks. > How it works is, code gets written by people who have an interest in > it. Never said anything against this. > If the people who have a direct interest in it are unwilling or unable > to write it, their only recourse is to cause someone else to become > interested. Some people you can simply talk into it, others won't be > interested until you offer money, because writing the code you want > them to write will take time away from writing the code they > themselves want to write. > > If you do not understand this, you will be more comfortable using > commercial software. You didn't get my point. > However, I suspect you will find that commercial software developers > are even *less* responsive to your needs. My main need is a stable OS; furthermore, I can choose between a variety of OSs, starting from the BSDs to Solaris/AIX to whatever crawls around there. No problem. > I hate to ask this, but: have you actually written any open source > code yourself? I did, and I still help to work on a BSD licensed exokernel that will be published when it's finished. > I suspect you haven't, because if you had, you would > already understand this. You didn't get my point, again. > > As long as it doesn't break things or causes regressions, I'm fine > > with it. But: Even if it doesn't cause any harm, every snippet of > > code should be taken care of by a person (or a group) that's liable > > for this code. That's a crucial point, IMHO. > > No. You don't get to use the L-word. The license says so, in capital > letters. You know the difference between ``I can't sue you for your dog pooing into my yard'' and the fact that you should be ashamed of your dog doing it and you allowing it? Convert this, take it *(-1), then you get the picture. I write code, commit it, whatever, then I should be 'liable' for it, take care it works, whatever. It's a *moral* thing! > If what you really meant was "responsible", see above. People will > only take responsibility for a piece of code if they have an interest > in it. Then they should join the Linux guys. Seems the BSD universe changed very much during the years, eh? Years ago there were mature guys coding and doing a *very* good job. Nowadays it seems that they code to impress their girlfriends. As said, join the Linux gang. > > [...] I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines. > > I would. Very much. Welcome to reality. Honestly. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no Timo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3BnUY3eBSqOgOMRCjBvAJwNBsudQNqsFLoUGD0jw9XMezc5CgCgmd1S Cx7n1BFo4IXlm0Ox+BI6DR4= =pXO+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----