From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 6 02:26:36 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: current@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F44116A468 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:26:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (gate.funkthat.com [69.17.45.168]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E75E13C48C for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:26:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (yly9xu2tju1r5g3k@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.6/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l662QWK9008114; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.6/8.13.3/Submit) id l662QW1N008113; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:26:31 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-ID: <20070706022631.GQ1221@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Julian H. Stacey" , current@freebsd.org References: <200707051428.22766.jhb@freebsd.org> <200707052245.l65MjpmR055403@fire.js.berklix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200707052245.l65MjpmR055403@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE-p6 i386 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code removal - Was Re: Future of the ie(4) driver X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:26:36 -0000 Julian H. Stacey wrote this message on Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 00:45 +0200: > John Baldwin wrote: > > The ie(4) driver in 7.x has several issues. First of all, it has several > > compiler warnings that haven't been successfully fixed in several years and > > are currently just ignored. More importantly, it hasn't been updated to use > > more modern FreeBSD APIs like bus_space (still uses inb/outb) and SMPng > > locking. If someone is using this driver and is willing to test fixes for > > it, then it can be updated. If there isn't anyone who is using this driver > > and willing to test fixes, then it will be removed from the tree at some > > point in the future (say a month or two). > > I reduced "cc: stable@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org" to current@ > & changed "Subject:" so as not to cross post this tangential reply. > ( BTW I checked, I don't have any hardware that uses "ie" ) > > What's concerned me increasingly for some time, (& nothing personal > to any individual, (the above just a useful illustration ) is a > tendency in FreeBSD for developers to say: > ~Unless anyone speaks in [time] I will discard [whatever]~ > Then months later a new release is rolled, & months later users upgrade, &: > "Oh my god! they removed the XYZ I use ! ... Aargh!~ > > So when discarding, it seems best to adopt a policy to warn as > wide a user base as possible, not just developers. > Not just current@ or stable@ but at least all of hackers@. I'm sorry, but are you saying that we now expect our regular users to read -hackers? I would say that if we need to go beyond -current or -stable, that we need to make it a regular news item. > Even then we risk hurting happy users of FreeBSD, eg > ISPs etc who just don't have time to read hackers@ every day. > > Maybe FreeBSD should have a low bandwidth mail list, that managers > & busy admins could safely subscribe, so they get long warning > of functional removal ? Such things as eg 16 bit PCMCIA removal > (after 4.11 before 6.*) would have gone to such a list, etc. Hmmm... If we batch these up, one per major branch, -announce wouldn't be too bad... > Good PR to keep wider user base informed of planned removals, > & some otherwise unknowing users might then reply > "OK, I'll install current/ stable on a spare box, & give > developer(s) access, as I can't afford to lose functionality~ > > PS Analogy: > Opening programme in the "Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy": > The plan to demolish Arthur's house. on display in locked basement, > The plan to demolish Earth, only filed on Alpha Centauri :-) I'm sure even if we push it to a News item and send it out to -announce there'll be someone who said, "Why didn't I get a personally courriered letter to my home, my place of business and my vacation home?" -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not."