From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jul 25 15:54:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A8C36899A for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 15:54:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDVxX2BSKz4NY1 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 15:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id y18so1228763ilp.10 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 08:54:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VE/aS0P6gQMKr/2NC9vmmKeOXtzS3acgfemwSS8/suY=; b=Goy94ruhJEVzHi0LnnmibSOvpt/8X7O/LaIGjt+gG5Wb6xS76XzMDOqckLkJSilfIG EruZujzd6WWaanof8DWnQF63jYtVq1jqqm+x7fiVcan47fWzzpBbFxavO+3qvoF/ivBn ObttVAI0ggqIuObbAFyFW53nmRestvXZMFb4dT9u6lbXyiiQ4Vq9HnP1hyx2r0W6pzF+ eY4sSMt/pNE/bmdXI84qQP3bM+h2h1/HGCI9jFqxmKx3UgjBmT7Z8GbZyYWIFj33sQu7 jQzcBJaMtL9TX3o4Fg/qS0SyIdsBv2qbnWPZNB10Mv3L0GgGtLtAbbO3Ijv3Wj0mVukV t6XA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VE/aS0P6gQMKr/2NC9vmmKeOXtzS3acgfemwSS8/suY=; b=mRfM1z07Nhl3BJTFbYnYcG1Ht47tof0+OQukKEhVq+69Z+laf+ACg1fZvLZuqvj4LR Phc4Fqs1hVLHUdQO/uH5J9NqTSQ/wyOe8HdA8Ib2Ps9tJif9bIRt5kCIAXnFPeW4nIxR QZXLmRhqDDkixizODMRuKtm7mqD+G2xOHxXfWmFvv3t4hqGCdfbOuMpU0jt21hGdnsTB Y5tph27LRWR806Vu4OU1R3IjdGi1yP/7ICzs+Cz3ADog18A84mo2blSih3h3vdTNId5v BEUb1+zVyeEVoxnpGqo1Jxo/e9nh3L3JXHWb5yGSQBpWVMm9X/vgnsf8kDH29M5rqkxH f0iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530otFSy293tmbIv6hDjQ/+uSPJyM9uyOHC1hQQt3RIOp64CJAHr y4oNNWRmQUj8ZMhB+mQZPzkt8Zl3muz+B4PfLn4Wa5zx X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyN4IDUtjtyyXyRqOLlEez+46nAQZaaEYruE0Le5M8atBMcgY1G1gS3Z7ETNh3I0fU7KmIw6eQFkAnPXixFP2I= X-Received: by 2002:a92:aa84:: with SMTP id p4mr1314367ill.185.1595692463340; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 08:54:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <58202623-bbf7-eda0-5cb5-fb4749e91e20@watters.ws> <6318251A-973A-4DEC-9271-12333EB11F7B@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200725152412.GJ92589@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 11:54:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ask stupid questions and you'll get a stupid answers, was: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BDVxX2BSKz4NY1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Goy94ruh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.93 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.032]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::142:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.899]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 15:54:25 -0000 On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:24 AM Victor Sudakov wrote: > Michael Watters wrote: > > > > On 7/24/2020 9:39 AM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > Why do I have to choose between Linux and FreeBSD? Why can't I have > > > both? I also use NetBSD, OpenBSD, Android, occasionally Windows. Am I > > > a traitor? Am I an infidel? > > > While it's fun to test out and play with different OSes it makes life > > much simpler if you standardize on *one* platform. Most organizations > > have standards and policies about what operating systems are allowed on > > their servers. > > This is very true. And when it comes to choice between Linux and > FreeBSD (as a company policy), despite my love for FreeBSD and long time > (over 20 years) experience therewith, I find there is very little I can > now rationally present as arguments to choose FreeBSD over Linux. > If stability is not a factor then you likely have no real argument because Linux has a long history of "borrowing" to put it politely tech from wherever they find it. If you are familiar with Star Trek think of it as the Borg OS (you will be assimilated!). This history started even before FreeBSD existed when it got it's network stack from 44BSD (without giving credit), continuing with ZFS and other things. As far as I can tell docker and other liteweight VM's are mostly meant to deal with the fact that the OS is a Rub Goldberg Machine at it's best, a heaping lump of useless junk glued together in god knows what way at it's worst. Again like the Borg it only works if you use it *EXACTLY* the way it is supposed to be used and that way is completely undocumented. None of the above is true with FreeBSD.... this is even though I am a life long Unix (BSD) fanatic (since the early 1980's) and hate M$ stuff I would rather use windows then Linux (I am being polite and not calling it my prefered name for it Linsucks). So I would not argue from a feature point of view but from a philosphical and the resulting stability/robustiness point of view for FreeBSD. > Very simple questions from the management: > > 1. If we decide to run FreeBSD on AWS ARM64 instances, how are you going > to upgrade them? Via buildworld on each? Not funny. > AWS has all kinds of problems so why use them at all instead of a cloud provider that gives you a true VM and easy migrations paths. > > 2. What if we eventually decide to roll out docker? > Docker is a bag on the side of a kludge that solves no real problems except hiding a fundamentally misarchitured OS. If you really want to use Linux then do it as a VM on a FreeBSD host to for stability reasons. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org