Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:38 -0800 From: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Anna Wilcox <AWilcox@wilcox-tech.com>, freebsd-arch <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org>, Sean Bruno <sbruno@freebsd.org>, sparc64@freebsd.org, Marius Strobl <marius@alchemy.franken.de> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqO-SdjnonGzRr2H0pDon5oALsDGsmG3KOxPGRVdTbHPQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <CANCZdfqO-SdjnonGzRr2H0pDon5oALsDGsmG3KOxPGRVdTbHPQ@mail.gmail.com>
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> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >=20 > sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't > work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it = makes > sprac64 more viable, then so much the better.=20 Hi Warner, I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we=E2=80=99re having so = much fun discussing it from an architectural perspective, but=E2=80=A6 What=E2=80=99s the actual goal (from a future market relevance = perspective) of putting resources, any resources, into sparc64? I think = that=E2=80=99s the key question that needs to get asked and answered = here since we all know that: 1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported =E2=80=9Cx8= 6 alternative architectures=E2=80=9D just because they existed and might = be technically interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user = community numbers to justify the time and energy expended for the = project as a whole (and even in an all-volunteer driven project, there = is simply no such thing as =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D - everything has a = cost somewhere). As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to = this rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD = and we knew it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it = also fell off the support roadmap and into the history books once = ALPHA=E2=80=99s market relevance had clearly ended. NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, = because their slogan is =E2=80=9COf course it runs NetBSD.=E2=80=9D = Again, FreeBSD !=3D NetBSD. The emphasis on market share is and always = has been a key differentiator for FreeBSD and part of both its own = slogans and mission statement. 2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle = purchased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant = players in that market. Sure, putting =E2=80=9Cold equipment to work=E2=80= =9D is also always a tempting objective, but it=E2=80=99s one that = really requires viewing through an objective lens since the perspective = of someone who owns said "old equipment" is rather more biased than the = perspective of the market as a whole. The market as a whole appears to = consist (in terms of global server market share): HP (x64) 27.6% IBM (x64) 22.9% DELL (x64) 16.4% All others (x64): 24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and = Huawei) Total: 90.9% [ Source: Gartner ] That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes = Itanium, POWER4 and SPARC64. We can also probably safely assume that = even amongst that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future = since their overall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which = begs the question: Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while = Oracle themselves are shifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for = which FreeBSD is already competitive, or is it really just trying to = keep some older collection of increasingly power/performance inefficient = (by comparison) alive? Again, what=E2=80=99s the long-term goal of supporting this = architecture? The old adage about =E2=80=9Cpicking your battles=E2=80=9D = applies here, no matter how enthusiastic the small community of = remaining SPARC users might be, which is why I am risking lightning = bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to ask the question. = :-) Thanks, - Jordan
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