From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:53:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C66B1065672 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2105A8FC12 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so6976557iay.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Y1Ak5RcgZhgcJS0ZhwTUQoHT0+mdw0HLVPu1NJRTZd8=; b=TENESpn7KRe/S3+0Fv6yKNOrOPRPbvafiJYKbewXW9UfVmcqnFm2WV/ZhWyfQ0id0r TViw6BKZ9zDhsr1N79yHi17PSWnAJl0uRUM5b5l5hxELKiuqxXam29LN1B2yc20+oYQM vBPqcUN7PNeyaVDpDixH8v8T5yIV4cLlfrBLG63RQgO1UtonvUpdMvXSIyz65Z5gNyz/ NyOoNzfrcV4At3X7N14utne9s3FFV8orS4LUL1q9k1dU5afnCOYeaHgNF0ujI7DkzQt3 KGdBn3/LTNhGCb6qMrPbwqEtbBBfH55WGC41ve5fE4mo5uUsSL79izcImJKML3MpnwjI 2/Nw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.203.97 with SMTP id kp1mr7693435igc.11.1347904420462; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:53:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Mike Meyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:41 -0000 >From a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their graphical commands are being implemented. Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is essential to FreeBSD. On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Mike Meyer wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 > Zhihao Yuan wrote: >> GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not >> usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So >> far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is >> already nonsense. > > As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I > think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in > a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As > compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line") > environment. > >> And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many >> things can't be done with a single WM. > > You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used > to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a > graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user > and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and > other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that > does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have > tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window > manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you > are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based > systems manager. > > Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be > talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common > definitions. > > Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the > program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/ > Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. > > O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/