From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 02:40:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4382AD771 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 02:40:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stackyjoe@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490GFq5xw2z4TPh for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 02:40:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stackyjoe@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id o14so1982009uat.13 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 19:40:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:cc; bh=Xujju0lgRF5K/06n/N1faVDMtFcjot/fKl51rqmcp3o=; b=c1pOFfp4e0IBbz94WocLHt/L87dv+NZflQ9YwMC56jUvAQ5zi1L4JzhFzLFyl1+h0z rMcEaEVfRxhSEbwGlI3vQPafhSO+oL4RaWWNZO/J/LyQ7KA6901Ta+xMQhM5d1mq34fC mdOhXdi8gtMhHgXgAwfPFpKMMH5hLyCWBT/Q9N9Ph6itzrVxMfg+e7v71Qvo3NkySHFO 3QAGRD7VBfN2Ag54mEHAwAsbWyKFcq8G49e4UthmOxwJ6ZpjjnGVwiMHjp2HCEV/GVYz Wu/Ch6k1+gYqHTColUuiCIiBmy370eEwDbBOtA7ScnMrjmSk5B4TQQLIsjlrx/BH9et2 0/EA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:cc; bh=Xujju0lgRF5K/06n/N1faVDMtFcjot/fKl51rqmcp3o=; b=ciEfzsFALWNR/kGa2pJxW+t0okIRHNOZa3T1iYay6S5ov+ECM5KWcVrk46X4pFtJVR IwcGPsmC2kBl5oXny+zPSf5eApH6k8OUi/2rhhYfCMEauWAHJTEBp8i3MK2y5Rx8C0V9 MCgTLLdncCxA9AptfgSohaEx+u0CF2JBV1pUV4GtzWdAjeN+kxZQuh2/ngkQvuESotmM UVtfk6xaE5PSFHZh9R2JEESnjZ8DiV+NVc4gE7D0vpx08zP2U2QoMicU75GGsSQpy/dP MG+cMOibLapyUeFbCL5NqTtvO8fStChCmLD0ddPumKWtJmwRsXdfbZkcHzBgNBwd7t2Y gl/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaHdY+gSopdJA9O2OaSQCfEX1SK6cawFTLKKiNq49A70672P2+7 20//cHy7HyZco6VVRa8iIekgFJqdxaCou6EvNcCpWw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK2kwGpHTQikgu5NXZHbRJerNoqYU6SxjbdMFhm48DO+mJtQ7xxSHWhS99UrtXMJLXhhmjuVX3yw+FEB6xDyZ0= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:1869:: with SMTP id j41mr7128454uag.99.1586659246643; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 19:40:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Joe Berner Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Cc: FreeBSD Hackers X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490GFq5xw2z4TPh X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=c1pOFfp4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of stackyjoe@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::931 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=stackyjoe@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.78), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.9.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MISSING_TO(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 02:40:48 -0000 My 2 cents: 1) Make video driver detection a bit more straightforward. Or at least make it dead simple to figure out which you need to install to get things working. I still need 2 or 3 tries with pkg install -f after major driver upgrades to get X server working correctly again with all the peripherals. 2) A wifi tool that's easier to use. wpa_supplicant is fine for those already very comfortable with command line stuff, but for unix newbies it's very intimidating. wpa_cli is better but still too complicated. An interactive CLI tool that lists the SSIDs, lets you pick one, and then progressively fill out the required info would help a lot. I remember finding comments on the forums saying "just plug it in to ethernet to get set up" and that's very inconvenient if not infeasible for a lot of home set ups. 3) The horrible beeping. A newbie who starts out is likely to open up vi on rc.conf (or whatever) and be greeted by a sequence of earsplitting system beeps as they learn that vi is not vim and some of the things they are used to do not work. Them not working is fine, but the beeping feels like a way for the system to mock your failure, and quickly goes from annoying to enraging. Years later I still remember this! I don't think a Xorg + GUI are necessary on a default install, but make it dead simple for a beginner (say, someone who doesn't know to do pkg search $X | less ) to get it set up. Joe On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > experience for new users. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >