From owner-freebsd-questions Thu Jan 6 1:17:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E94115603 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:17:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from delmir@enteract.com) Received: from delcasa2 (216-80-34-14.d.enteract.com [216.80.34.14]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA54284; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:17:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from delmir@enteract.com) Message-ID: <005001bf5827$3f906620$0200a8c0@enteract.com> Reply-To: "Delmir Fernandes" From: "Delmir Fernandes" To: , , , Subject: /**** Open Source - FreeBSD Arguments ***/ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:18:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01BF57F4.BB38ECD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BF57F4.BB38ECD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a reply to all of those that tried to answer mine earlier = questions or arguments. But first I would like to know were and how you got the message to begin = with! This also happens to be mine first time to disclose mine ideas about = open source software. I notice that many of you misunderstood mine point = by lack of interpretation from mine part. I will now try to make myself = clear by using different parts of different replies that was received = and forgive mine foreign and broken English. All previous messages (others & mine) are quoted with ">" and ">>" = respectively. So, here we go: /*** By: Mr. K. - bsd@inbox.org ***/=20 >> I am a new Linux user and always listen to others saying that FreeBSD >> is better and faster plus many large and well-known companies use >> FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much more popular? Why does = not >> exist enough (if any) documentation on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so >> much poor?=20 > > Personally I consider Linux better for home desktop use, and FreeBSD > better for server use. The drivers come out much faster for Linux, > with much more support. This would explain why linux is more popular > (there are more home users than server farmers). I also consider = Windows > better than Linux and FreeBSD for home desktop use (donning my flame > retardant suit). When I'm at home, I like to watch DVDs. I don't > want to dual boot, and I don't want to wait around a year for someone > to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor. Driver support is better for > Windows than for FreeBSD and Linux combined. That would explain why > Windows is way more popular than both of them, and will continue to = be. > > Is FreeBSD better? Yes, for some things. Is Windows? Yes, for other > things. Is Linux? Well, maybe, but not for anything I want to do :). The main intention of the questions was to compare and point out that = despite FreeBSD is better built and it does not hold the same prestige = and fame that others operating systems do.=20 When Mr. K says that he likes to watch DVDs and do not want to wait for = someone to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor, that goes against all the = reason behind the "Open Source Movement". One should not need to back = engineer nothing. Operating systems are to computers the same thing that spoken languages = are to us human. Have you ever seen someone paying just to speak a = language? Does it sound absurd? It sure does! But when it comes to = computers, some how we loose the whole sense about it. We do not only = believe it is right to pay to use an operating system, but yet, we = accept others to control it and hide its internal functions. Another strange example would be this one: Try to image that when you = bought a car the hood was locked and that maintenance was enforced by = law to be done only by authorized dealers. Holy-Molly!!! But, guest = what? Again, some how we loose the whole sense about it when it comes to = computer. And again, we not only allow corporations to own and control = our OSs (which is enforced by law), but we also let them to trap and = ambush us to use their operating systems which is somewhat described = here: /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ > ..., actually Microsoft is where it is because of an over-zealous=20 > marketing strategy that leaves buyers with no other option...the fact=20 > that the apps run on an `easy-to-use' OS helps, but if that were the=20 > only factor then several other companies would have won the OS=20 > war long ago. Most will argue that BSD isn't in competition with=20 > MS...there's no comparison. Part of living in a capitalistic world is = > having options...=20 > and as far as communism goes, .=20 > wanna see masses...subscribe to some FreeBSD mailing lists. Very good Drew! You are totally right about Microsoft's over-zealous = marketing strategy. That is the reason Microsoft is being sued because = of anti-trust laws. But you got mine idea of capitalism and communism = totally wrong. What I had in mind was to some what mimic Microsoft. What = I tried to say was if FreeBSD marketed itself better, it would be more = popular and by being more popular would bring in more resources to it. = Got it? /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ > I don't think FreeBSD is being left behind or running anywhere, it's=20 > strong enough to hold it's own ground while other OS vendors go=20 > running around chasing target markets. I don't know how else to=20 > explain this...=20 > superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town=20 > take it or leave it.=20 Well, I believe part of that is wrong and part is wishful thinking. Huhm... You don't think FreeBSD is being left behind!? While jokes about = Microsoft spreading to other sectors of industry are no longer jokes and = while no mere mortal know the meaning of the word FreeBSD... huhm.=20 About the: "superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town" - that would be = excellent, but if nobody have a clue about the deal... how beneficial = can it be? Going back to the capitalism and communism idea, what we have on the our = real world today is: (Any kind of OS) + (A lot of marketing) =3D (A common OS and a lot of = resources to the OS holder) ...Resources that if were obtained and use towards FreeBSD would make it = better... that was one of the suggestions on mine first message!!! /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ >>FreeBSD is better and faster plus many large and well-known >>companies use FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much >>more popular? Why does not exist enough (if any) documentation >>on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so much poor? > > All of this has been said before ( many times ). And in your=20 >`documentation' question lies a summary that will answer most=20 >of your questions.=20 > >1) What documentation are you referring to?=20 > - linux and windows users generally refer to things in a more=20 > general sense=20 > - users of BSD and other OS`s would have asked for=20 > documentation on installing the OS or another topic regarding=20 > the OS.=20 > *** I'm assuming that you're not looking for unix help=20 > ( because that's not really OS specific ) and there's plenty of=20 > documentation for that.=20 > *** If I asked you tell me about Windows or Linux...what=20 > would you say?...where would you start?=20 > > 2) How long did you spend looking for whatever documentation=20 > you were looking for?=20 > > - linux and windows users generally expect things to be given=20 > to them without any effort. ( easy as a mouse click, right )=20 > - in the world of BSD, a user learns real fast the best route to=20 > discovery. ( But that's a trait that is aquired through a lot of = trial=20 > and error )=20 > > *** browse the site, search the archives, read the man pages,=20 > post a `specific' question regarding the OS to questions.=20 > > ....the linux=20 > success comes from the `generic' user base who are fed up with MS.=20 Documentation.... Any and every! Here we go again: If you want to improve FreeBSD you definitely need = more resources, and to get more resources you need to target masses = (everyone). Where did you get the idea that just because FreeBSD is an = excellent server and for sure not an OS for dumb people (As in MS OSs), = everyone should have the knowledge, time and patience to learn the = specifics about the OS? MS documentation is amazingly NOT what I am = talking about, since MS gives a hard time even to developers on their on = products. It should be way too much to ask, but the perfect = documentation should be simple and strait enough for a na=EFve user and = complete enough an expert. Example: Where is the documentation to = install a NIC? Oh... I see... It is a work in progress! It should be = done already if FreeBSD had more resources... and don't make me go over = how to get more resources, again!!! /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ >> From mine point of view FreeBSD is in the place where it is because >> it's creators want so! > > You're right...but I think most BSD users will tell you they want it=20 > that way, too.=20 Are being sarcastic? You've got to be. /*** By: Frankie Li - drew@multinet-media.com ***/ > ...However, degrading the product (as Delmir suggested) will not > do FreeBSD any good. I also disagree with Delmir's view that FreeBSD = is > a "professional only system." Two years ago, I was a normal Window 95 > ... Forgive me Frankie, but you got it all wrong. I never had the intention = to degrade FreeBSD. I was just point out ways to improve FreeBSD and I = am sure I did NOT make that clear at all... forgive me! Please reply. Please reply. Please reply. Sincerely, Delmir Fernandes delmir@hotmail.com CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org drew@multinet-media.com notme@lvdi.net bsd@inbox.org ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BF57F4.BB38ECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a reply to all of those that = tried to=20 answer mine earlier questions or arguments.
 
But first I would like to know were and = how you got=20 the message to begin with!
 
This also happens to be mine first time = to disclose=20 mine ideas about open source software. I notice that many of you = misunderstood=20 mine point by lack of interpretation from mine part. I will now try to = make=20 myself clear by using different parts of different replies that was = received and=20 forgive mine foreign and broken English.
 
All previous messages (others & = mine) are=20 quoted with ">" and ">>" respectively. So, here we = go:
 
/*** By: Mr. K. - bsd@inbox.org ***/
>> I am a = new Linux=20 user and always listen to others saying that FreeBSD
>> is = better and=20 faster plus many large and well-known companies use
>> FreeBSD. = If that=20 is so... Why is Linux so much more popular? Why does not
>> = exist=20 enough (if any) documentation on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be = so
>> much=20 poor?
>
> Personally I consider Linux better for home = desktop use,=20 and FreeBSD
> better for server use.  The drivers come out = much=20 faster for Linux,
> with much more support.  This would = explain why=20 linux is more popular
> (there are more home users than server=20 farmers).  I also consider Windows
> better than Linux and = FreeBSD=20 for home desktop use (donning my flame
> retardant suit).  = When I'm=20 at home, I like to watch DVDs.  I don't
> want to dual boot, = and I=20 don't want to wait around a year for someone
> to reverse engineer = a DVD=20 decryptor.  Driver support is better for
> Windows than for = FreeBSD=20 and Linux combined.  That would explain why
> Windows is way = more=20 popular than both of them, and will continue to be.
>
> Is = FreeBSD=20 better?  Yes, for some things.  Is Windows?  Yes, for=20 other
> things.  Is Linux?  Well, maybe, but not for = anything I=20 want to do :).
 
The main intention of the questions was = to compare=20 and point out that despite FreeBSD is better built and it does not hold = the same=20 prestige and fame that others operating systems do.
When Mr. K says = that he=20 likes to watch DVDs and do not want to wait for someone to reverse = engineer a=20 DVD decryptor, that goes against all the reason behind the “Open = Source=20 Movement”. One should not need to back engineer = nothing.
Operating systems=20 are to computers the same thing that spoken languages are to us human. = Have you=20 ever seen someone paying just to speak a language? Does it sound absurd? = It sure=20 does! But when it comes to computers, some how we loose the whole sense = about=20 it. We do not only believe it is right to pay to use an operating = system, but=20 yet, we accept others to control it and hide its internal = functions.
Another=20 strange example would be this one: Try to image that when you bought a = car the=20 hood was locked and that maintenance was enforced by law to be done only = by=20 authorized dealers. Holy-Molly!!! But, guest what? Again, some how we = loose the=20 whole sense about it when it comes to computer. And again, we not only = allow=20 corporations to own and control our OSs (which is enforced by law), but = we also=20 let them to trap and ambush us to use their operating systems which is = somewhat=20 described here:
 
/*** By: Drew Wiggins  - notme@lvdi.net ***/
> ..., = actually=20 Microsoft is where it is because of an over-zealous
> marketing = strategy=20 that leaves buyers with no other option...the fact
> that the = apps run on=20 an `easy-to-use' OS helps, but if that were the
> only factor = then=20 several other companies would have won the OS
> war long = ago.  Most=20 will argue that BSD isn't in competition with
> MS...there's no=20 comparison.  Part of living in a capitalistic world is
> = having=20 options...
> and as far as communism goes, <see Microsoft=20 Marketing>.
> wanna see masses...subscribe to some FreeBSD = mailing=20 lists.
 
Very good Drew! You are totally right = about=20 Microsoft’s over-zealous marketing strategy. That is the reason = Microsoft is=20 being sued because of anti-trust laws. But you got mine idea of = capitalism and=20 communism totally wrong. What I had in mind was to some what mimic = Microsoft.=20 What I tried to say was if FreeBSD marketed itself better, it would be = more=20 popular and by being more popular would bring in more resources to it. = Got=20 it?
 

/*** By: Drew Wiggins  - notme@lvdi.net ***/
> I don't = think=20 FreeBSD is being left behind or running anywhere, it's
> strong = enough to=20 hold it's own ground while other OS vendors go
> running around = chasing=20 target markets.  I don't know how else to
> explain this... =
>=20 superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town
> take it or leave it. =
 
Well, I believe part of that is wrong = and part is=20 wishful thinking.
Huhm... You don’t think FreeBSD is being left = behind!?=20 While jokes about Microsoft spreading to other sectors of industry are = no longer=20 jokes and while no mere mortal know the meaning of the word FreeBSD... = huhm.=20
About the: "superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town" - that would be = excellent,=20 but if nobody have a clue about the deal... how beneficial can it = be?
Going=20 back to the capitalism and communism idea, what we have on the our real = world=20 today is:
(Any kind of OS) + (A lot of marketing) =3D (A common OS = and a lot of=20 resources to the OS holder)
...Resources that if were obtained and = use=20 towards FreeBSD would make it better... that was one of the suggestions = on mine=20 first message!!!
 

/*** By: Drew Wiggins  - notme@lvdi.net = ***/
>>FreeBSD is=20 better and faster plus many large and well-known
>>companies = use=20 FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much
>>more popular? = Why does=20 not exist enough (if any) documentation
>>on FreeBSD? How can = FreeBSD=20 be so much poor?
>
>   All of this has been said = before (=20 many times ).  And in your
>`documentation' question lies a = summary=20 that will answer most
>of your questions.
>
>1) What = documentation are you referring to?
>   - linux and = windows=20 users generally refer to things in a more
>    = general=20 sense
>    - users of BSD and other OS`s would = have asked=20 for
>    documentation on installing the OS or = another=20 topic regarding
>    the OS. =
>   =20 *** I'm assuming that you're not looking for unix help=20
>    ( because that's not really OS specific ) and = there's=20 plenty of
>    documentation for that.=20
>    *** If I asked you tell me about Windows or=20 Linux...what
>    would you say?...where would you = start?=20
>
> 2) How long did you spend looking for whatever = documentation=20
>     you were looking for?=20
>
>     - linux and windows users = generally=20 expect things to be given
>     to them = without any=20 effort. ( easy as a mouse click, right )
>  - in the world = of BSD, a=20 user learns real fast the best route to
>     = discovery. ( But that's a trait that is aquired through a lot of trial=20
>     and error )=20
>
>     *** browse the site, search the = archives, read the man pages,
>     post a = `specific'=20 question regarding the OS to questions.
>
> <note the=20 similarities between linux and windows users>....the linux
> = success=20 comes from the `generic' user base who are fed up with MS.
 
Documentation.... Any and = every!
Here we go=20 again: If you want to improve FreeBSD you definitely need more = resources, and to=20 get more resources you need to target masses (everyone). Where did you = get the=20 idea that just because FreeBSD is an excellent server and for sure not = an OS for=20 dumb people (As in MS OSs), everyone should have the knowledge, time and = patience to learn the specifics about the OS? MS documentation is = amazingly NOT=20 what I am talking about, since MS gives a hard time even to developers = on their=20 on products. It should be way too much to ask, but the perfect = documentation=20 should be simple and strait enough for a na=EFve user and complete = enough an=20 expert. Example: Where is the documentation to install a NIC? Oh... I = see... It=20 is a work in progress! It should be done already if FreeBSD had more=20 resources... and don’t make me go over how to get more resources,=20 again!!!
 

 /*** By: Drew Wiggins  - = notme@lvdi.net ***/
>> From = mine point=20 of view FreeBSD is in the place where it is because
>> it's = creators=20 want so!
>
> You're right...but I think most BSD users will = tell you=20 they want it
> that way, too.
 
Are being sarcastic? You’ve got = to be.
 

/*** By: Frankie Li – drew@multinet-media.com = ***/
>=20 ...However, degrading the product (as Delmir suggested) will not
> = do=20 FreeBSD any good.  I also disagree with Delmir's view that FreeBSD=20 is
> a "professional only system."  Two years ago, I was a = normal=20 Window 95
> ...
 
Forgive me Frankie, but you got it all = wrong. I=20 never had the intention to degrade FreeBSD. I was just point out ways to = improve=20 FreeBSD and I am sure I did NOT make that clear at all... forgive=20 me!
 
Please reply.
Please = reply.
Please=20 reply.
 
Sincerely,
 
Delmir Fernandes
delmir@hotmail.com
 

CC:
freebsd-questions@freebsd.o= rg
drew@multinet-media.com
notme@lvdi.net
bsd@inbox.org
 
 
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