From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 24 05:34:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4831C1065672 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:34:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14EB8FC17 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:34:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JdfJr-0005nV-PQ for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:34:03 +0000 Received: from 195.208.174.178 ([195.208.174.178]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:34:03 +0000 Received: from vadim_nuclight by 195.208.174.178 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:34:03 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Vadim Goncharov Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:33:50 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Nuclear Lightning @ Tomsk, TPU AVTF Hostel Lines: 124 Message-ID: References: <200803181433.m2IEXiFk019099@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.208.174.178 X-Comment-To: Oliver Fromme User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD) Sender: news Subject: Re: RELEASE discs & ISO images (for future) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: vadim_nuclight@mail.ru List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:34:09 -0000 Hi Oliver Fromme! On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:33:44 +0100 (CET); Oliver Fromme wrote about 'Re: RELEASE discs & ISO images (for future)': >>>>> The xorg packages on disc1 occupy 54 MB. Not really all >>>>> that much, I think. The linux base, perl and python occupy >>>>> another 50 MB together. The rest are small utility things >>>>> and dependencies (only a few MB). >>>> But that is still valuable if geom_ugz is in use. >>> Have you actually tried it? Providing hard numbers is >>> more useful than just talking about it. :-) >> >> I've used Frenzy LiveCD many times (http://frenzy.org.ua), a >> Portable SysAdmin Tool. It is 200Mb minicd with MANY useful >> packages. It has X Window and many graphical and console >> utilities (about 600MB uncompressed). It proved to be stable >> and not-so-slow. > Nice. Looks very interesting and useful. Maybe there > should be a link to it somewhere on freebsd.org. :-) > Would be interesting to know how it performs on rather > slow and resource-limited machines, i.e. slow processor > and low RAM. Reasonably. I've ran Frenzy 0.3 on a Pentium 166, noticeable slow is only the first run of each utility (otherwise it's cached). > It's important to keep in mind that many novices who > want to give FreeBSD a try will install it on an older > spare machine. So the installer and live FS should > run well on older hardware. It's for the advocacy > reasons that you mentioned. ;-) Yes, I know :) >>> Users who refuse to read docs will also refused to read >>> docs that are directly available on the CD. >>> Users unwilling to read docs cannot be cured by technical >>> measures. It's a user problem, not a FreeBSD problem. >> >> When you say so, you lose a number of users. > I'm not afraid of losing users who refuse to read docs. You're splitting users to only two catefories - reading/not reading. In fact there is third - "reading occasionally" :) And it's not good losing them too. >> Yes, but DVD is still in the future. > I don't quite understand. Most PCs have a DVD drive. > You can buy DVD-ROM drives for $20. Not in all countries :-) > Sure, there are old boxes that still have CD drives > only. I'm not saying that FreeBSD should stop making > CD ISO images. But it doesn't have to be the main > focus anymore. The majority of people do have DVD > drives, so the focus should move to providing a DVD > ISO image, getting rid of various problems (space > constraints, CD shuffling annoyance). "Legacy" CD ISO > images could still be provided, but it's lower priority. Sure, but not quite today. >>> Such comparisons are bogus anyway. I've installed SuSE >>> linux before, and I think the graphical installer is >>> terribly annoying. It's worse than Windows. It took >>> me a lot longer to get a usable system installed, and >>> even then it installed different sets than the ones I >>> selected (I have no idea why). In my opinion, FreeBSD's >>> installation wins big time. >> I've not said anything about graphics installer - but features/functional >> only. > Yes, my point was about features and functionality. > I don't care if the installer runs in text mode or > graphics mode, as long as it still supports text mode > e.g. for installation via serial console, and as long > as the design of the graphical installer does not > interfere with usage. > For example, when the animated files images that fly > from the CD icon on the left to the harddisk icon on > the right during installation take 75% CPU time on a > slow machine, doubling the installation time, then > something is clearly wrong. Agreed, but that are _other_ features and functionality. Ability to read all docs from installer != graphics and animation. >>>> Imagine a review like this: >>>> "That SuSe or Debian are wonderful with great number of software instantly >>>> available and with this FreeBSD I must wait for download and then compile?! >>>> Such shit! Don't use it, if they can't do this, they can't do other usable >>>> things!" >>> Such a review is worthless and shouldn't be taken serious. >>> I really don't worry about that. >> >> You don't, but a number of users can be lost. Advocacy, again. > You cannot do anything against clueless reviews. There > will always be reviews from people who don't get the facts > right and draw wrong conclusions. And from people who > are opposed to FreeBSD in the first place. ("So, lets see > if the FreeBSD dumbheads did it any better this time, but > I really doubt it. Nothing beats Dubian Linux anyway.") You forget about unopinionated users who can just have unsuccessful experience. Have seen http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=121979 ? :) I guess the problem he had was due too many small Xorg packages after Xorg 7.0 split. This could be prevented by just moving Xorg to disc2. Exactly the user category I said - and it happens, unfortunatelly. >>>> And what about at least shell and some other tools? >>> A shell and a few tools (very few, admittedly) are included >>> in the MFS image in the /boot directory. >>> And there's also the shell opened on Alt-F4 once the >>> installation has started. For anything else there is >>> the "fixit" live FS. >> That's shells are almost useless because even "ls" don't work. > echo * Yes, _I_ know. But novice user can't yet know it. And still, where is more useful "ls -l" ?.. -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov. ICQ#166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru [Moderator of RU.ANTI-ECOLOGY][FreeBSD][http://antigreen.org][LJ:/nuclight]