From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 13 09:10:57 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9385106564A; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:10:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from varga.michal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292D38FC19; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:10:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxg9 with SMTP id 9so434259fxg.13 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 02:10:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:organization :date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dG9AFlz03kbg6iQFAyuaUWtZYLHiuHRGCENiBfLgdto=; b=CYamxz7yIU7FWeUDsRXvCF0VQfB5Ko6SNYg/7x8/jlSlW1rnCJgVvroWhvjGCyhmYt VhMIgt39N7BpySGIzCyVXjqqTkiAAQEhUbofEqac7esxa2SEO6cIYowZQ155Z56dwJEk tYqX8jUeVseYx0I3oluIf2Z6Tlhqrf8dGxpKU= Received: by 10.223.7.7 with SMTP id b7mr1021423fab.9.1315905055180; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 02:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.101.2] (254.166.broadband10.iol.cz [90.177.166.254]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l21sm988728fac.8.2011.09.13.02.10.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 13 Sep 2011 02:10:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michal Varga To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4E6E99BC.4050909@missouri.edu> References: <1315864556.1747.103.camel@xenon> <20110912190558.641a3219@seibercom.net> <20110912230943.GD33455@guilt.hydra> <4E6E99BC.4050909@missouri.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Stonehenge Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 11:10:51 +0200 Message-ID: <1315905051.1747.208.camel@xenon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith , Gabor Kovesdan Subject: Re: Thank you (for making the ports less boring). X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:10:57 -0000 On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 18:46 -0500, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote: > > I found Michal Varga's critique snarky and unnecessarily sarcastic... > > I agree that it was unnecessarily sarcastic. We all make mistakes from > time to time. Michal could have pointed out the mistake and still been > nice about it. I know for myself that when I make a mistake like this > that I feel bad enough as it is, and I don't need anyone rubbing it in. > > Stephen Honestly, I wasn't trying to pick on Gabor any specifically, because as you say, mistakes can happen. But the sad part of the story is that we're in 2011 and these kinds of mistakes still happen, over and over, till absurdity. And not just "still", they grow by magnitudes which now feels like from month to month, from week to week (and I'm not going to be experiencing this here when it finally hits the "days" scale, followed by an implosion of the Universe). I'm not writing about this for the first time (in fact this is for the last time, so hey, at least there's something on a positive note), but it has gradually become nigh impossible to use FreeBSD as a modern desktop workstation over the recent years, and especially this last year has become a true nightmare. It would be pointless to simply repeat what I already said in those previous discussions about the current - and very poor - ports quality (or more specifically, total lack of quality control procedures), and it would just get ignored again anyway (pretty good pointer being that at about the same time as the last such thread spawned, just some random bikeshedding discussion about a proper use of academic english in ports or whatever pointless crap generated ten-times the same content over like, 5 minutes tops. Because it's good to have some priorities straight.) And if it wasn't Gabor's commit that again brought my OS down to unusable level, it would be the one next week, or if we are lucky, two to three weeks from now (but that would be probably this year's record). Because the current procedures in place not only encourage these kinds of mistakes, they downright call for them. Because there are no procedures whatsoever. Not in the ecosystem-wide sense. Not the ones that are crucial to make the OS actually work as a whole. But hey, I'm not going to reiterate all that over again. It's been said. Just that before someone tells me again that I should not upgrade my ports so frequently, or that I should make (shlib, or any other) backups before any and every update (how is it that after a decade with ports such novel idea didn't even cross my mind?), or that I should keep sending patches every time my system is down again (because that's obviously the most perfect time to start checking if the update actually works), or that I should just go install PC-BSD... ...seriously guys? ...SERIOUSLY? Every time I visit my favorite restaurant, I should probably wait for a few hours too, quietly watching if someone didn't die of food poisoning before I finally order for myself, or that I should dig some old food from the fridge and just bring it over as a backup, or heck, just leave it be and simply order a pizza. Right? Are there still any more useful suggestions this time? If so, please, don't make them. Just don't. So there's just one more thing I will add and I'm done with it all (after all, I have some desktop migrations ahead of me and those penguin boxes still won't plan and install themselves, even in 2011): On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 01:01 +0200, Gabor Kovesdan wrote: > Btw, from your long mail I see you have lots of free time. You should > think of spending that better than writing such long mails. Think about > being a FreeBSD volunteer. ;) Yes, only if I wasn't spending all my free time constantly fixing new breakages from latest port upgrades. I can easily see why so many people think that the whole situation is actually pretty funny, or on the opposite, that no 'situation' with ports even exists at all. Picking just randomly here: ## From: Gabor Kovesdan ## Mailer: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:9.0a1) ## From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith ## Mailer: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21) [and watching this on a full-list scale is truly a sight to behold] Sadly, as an actual FreeBSD desktop user, I don't have the luxury to just keep politely filing PRs over and over or compile packs of patches every time a new untested port breaks everything, because by the time I'm done fixing all the failures (or more probably, still looking for some ways on how to resolve the remaining ones), my day is long over, and I sometimes need to even use those FreeBSD boxes as they were meant to be in the first place. So believe me, as soon as my systems are all on [insert any modern and properly maintained desktop OS/distribution that works, which based on my tests over the last few weeks quite nicely fills Arch Linux, but then many else would surely work too] and thus my current work on constantly fixing *my* FreeBSDs is cut down by 99%, I'm all hands in for some good old fashioned volunteering. You know, except that I won't have a slightest idea on how much FreeBSD ports are broken on the large scale (yes, my FreeBSD servers with a limited scope of ports still run perfectly fine over the decade, thank you), but that's but a minor issue that nobody around seems to be bothered with, so I guess I will be fine too in that case. m. -- Michal Varga, Stonehenge (Gmail account)