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Date:      Wed, 30 May 2001 15:16:17 -0400
From:      Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
To:        Nik Clayton <nik@FreeBSD.ORG>, Matt Dillon <dillon@earth.backplane.com>
Cc:        Mike Smith <msmith@FreeBSD.ORG>, stable@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: adding "noschg" to ssh and friends
Message-ID:  <p05100e00b73af455aff2@[128.113.24.47]>
In-Reply-To: <20010530183526.A94961@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>
References:  <200105292336.f4TNaRT01704@mass.dis.org> <200105292334.f4TNYKg31968@earth.backplane.com> <20010530183526.A94961@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>

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At 6:35 PM +0100 5/30/01, Nik Clayton wrote:
>You missed a bit.
>
>   "Cracker is unable to modify binary.  A trojan ssh is not
>    installed,

... so the hacker instead installs something which will install
that trojan via some other means, at some other time.

>    meaning that your passwords are not quietly stolen.  In
>    a fit of frustration, cracker runs rm -rf.

If all freebsd systems came with noschg, then the root-kits
will quickly be upgraded to deal with that improvement.  It
would take a hacker with a pretty short attention span to
completely give up on hacking a machine due to one little
binary being unmodifiable.  Yes, that will save you for an
extra week or two, until a hacker with a longer attention
span gets on some such system, and writes an improved root
kit for the kiddies who have short attention spans.

While I'm sure this debate can and will continue, I tend to
agree with the position of Matt Dillon and others.  If
the default FreeBSD install turns on noschg for ssh, such
that ALL freebsd installations will have it on, then the net
improvement to security will be zero.  Zero.  Not "a very
small improvement", but absolute zero.

If some freebsd administrators want to turn it on for the
few machines they run, then it probably will be a slight
security improvement for those few, but only because it will
be a rare event for the average hacker to run into.

Just MO.  And no, I have not missed the points you are trying
to make.  I just live in an environment with inquisitive
hackers who can have very long attention spans, particularly
when you don't want them to.  I am pretty confident that this
kind of change wouldn't slow them down for long -- assuming
they managed to break root in the first place.

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn            =   gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer           or  gad@freebsd.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute    or  drosih@rpi.edu

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