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Date:      Mon, 24 Apr 2000 03:13:10 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG>
To:        "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM>
Cc:        Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>, freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: netkill - generic remote DoS attack (fwd) 
Message-ID:  <Pine.NEB.3.96L.1000424030249.15998A-100000@fledge.watson.org>
In-Reply-To: <200004232202.SAA47172@whizzo.transsys.com>

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On Sun, 23 Apr 2000, Louis A. Mamakos wrote:

> ...

These are all decent points, and in a number senses reiterate the point I
made about avoiding the introduction of new fragility and brittleness into
the TCP stack.  I don't think anyone here is under the impression that: 

1) Changes should happen immediately without extensive testing

2) Changes should be enabled by default (there's a fair degree of
   precedent for minor TCP changes to avoid specific attacks, but having
   them enabled by run-time sysctls)

3) The scope of the changes should be broad and dramatically change the
   properties of long-term connections and behavior

Thus far, this has been a brain-storming session to address a very
specific attack in very specific environments.  All ideas thrown in by
various participants have been purely suggestions, and figures (such as
``30 seconds'') were ballparks to be used in back-of-napkin calculations
concerning balancing effectiveness and risk. 

That said, while it is true (as you point out) that TCP is a well-honed
tool, researched, developed, and adapted by experienced and competent
people, it is also true that TCP has had to change in a number of ways
over the years to reflect changing needs and environments.  TCP was not
designed to address denial of service attacks, and it makes sense to
harden the TCP implementation against these attacks given the (relatively) 
recent desire by users of the protocol to resist these attacks. 

Given your clear experience in the area, would you have any suggestions
for addressing this attack?  Given exchanges with a number of victims of
denial of service attacks, I respectfully suggest that for many providers,
being able to accept any connections at all is still an improvement over
accepting no connections :-).  Knowing when to act, and when not to act,
is important but should not rule out brainstorming for solutions. 

  Robert N M Watson 

robert@fledge.watson.org              http://www.watson.org/~robert/
PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37  ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1
TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services



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