From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 20:38:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3691827E462 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:38:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48ytJC55XSz4FVr; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:38:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 039KcLwW054845 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: From: Chris Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: Kyle Evans Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:38:27 -0700 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48ytJC55XSz4FVr X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.55 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.757,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.80)[-0.795,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[24.113.41.81] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 20:38:04 -0000 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:34:20 -0500 Kyle Evans kevans@freebsd=2Eorg said > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > with FreeBSD 12=2E1 as a desktop: > > > > https://arstechnica=2Ecom/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-revie= w-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have=2E It will be a good > > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > > experience for new users=2E >=20 > Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: >=20 > 1=2E re: LiveCD/Amnesiac prompt, we really should indicate the expected > credentials=2E=2E=2E we already do special stuff in release/ for install > media, my initial impression is that this shouldn't be all too hard=2E >=20 > 2=2E re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > at least have basically usable history at a minimum >=20 > 3=2E re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg > returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console"=2E > Looking at sample output for that specific inquiry: >=20 > linux-c7-xorg-libs-7=2E7_8 Xorg libraries (Linux CentOS 7=2E7=2E1908) > xorg-7=2E7_3 X=2EOrg complete distribution metaport > xorg-apps-7=2E7_4 X=2Eorg apps meta-port > xorg-cf-files-1=2E0=2E6 X=2Eorg cf files for use with imake builds > xorg-dmx-1=2E20=2E8,1 Distributed Multihead X from X=2EOrg > xorg-docs-1=2E7=2E1,1 X=2Eorg documentation files >=20 > I wonder if we shouldn't push the version numbers into a second column > so it's easier to glean=2E IMHO that's a really good idea=2E On a similar note; may I humbly suggest that the current motd(5), while informative, is a bit overwhelming to new users=2E Perhaps replace some of it's current contents with a: To bootstrap a desktop on your new install enter "pkg install xorg"=2E=2E=2E or something along those lines=2E Maybe just a reference to a text document in examples that provides some suggestions/ solutions=2E > The initial column with full pkgname is a bit > too noisy for my eyes=2E Further, and this only really applies probably > in conjunction with other potential problems and may be completely > incorrect, but I think we should be giving our users something that > they can just quickly slap onto a `pkg install ` line and have the > greatest chance of doing the right thing=2E AFAICT pkg-search won't > trigger a `pkg update` before the search, so by the time you actually > pkg update+install the remote repo may not have that specific package > (w/ version) anymore: >=20 > 4=2E re: /proc, we should hold a separate discussion on this list about > whether we can mount /proc by default with debugging facilities > eradicated=2E >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Kyle Evans --Chris