From owner-svn-src-all@freebsd.org Tue Jun 12 02:45:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: svn-src-all@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9381007DB0 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 02:45:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22c.google.com (mail-it0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19D238EEEE for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 02:45:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id k17-v6so12953918ita.0 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:45:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=VFo8ehchHJSidTL/xEf0E30XTFOJwOzcbyWVUJ5aDMI=; b=h8WsmmGOrTpH7/D+iyz0fi4nbzf69h64W33PlAUsbJXe+znV9pdhcVq9YzzAEBGX1V ShDYhCBsX5dmIHfyRM+IGiohPIRo9lrjqr2mGfd3ME9WKTM+g+Nh2IScTkF/n6IDFfQv WjwIfF/SVW32qvi32xFeQKtYmdAmT6r859r43pe8d+PcKBFGEHcdUA2QzN4wrPm8V0KV RH2OjpDZZhD1ku/DrNBY4giibj0KULAlVFtM2LeiDy+/Ij1SvDdz9Y8ctAtSBBdtQsbD 8zHn5676qhDlZURQ3nPkqd4fvQZTG9vgcFqdxLzcNrV3ER8WwEYsJhU6e59SXpJ063rL fEGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VFo8ehchHJSidTL/xEf0E30XTFOJwOzcbyWVUJ5aDMI=; b=k2Y96aEy0BozvE+VW07VTJqsesBh7Pox/jVpbShhayVQZF3Zd7E1GMhz2Yu52l9Ibm 9xrLL0HKjloGjKF+72i4JOK6nxnfbDaM5EPt4LXkcYNAYdsFix61RecR62kBKazarE9L jj51nxupE+LJP062c934hHHT5y/9ifSuuFrWhlScYYpeTA71+wHuHF0yGUuuGOMASuEe +MSTebjezDbe0QOYVhLbjbURgLWwGN5HEWs89UHwer+mW23YL4JKqLpRRGsG9P+OC/tg 52j+jXVRCUAHM5xPStAD2h9HmJBOdPZWsuwlpaYZ8EI+jViCj72hAvVgsN3nkEujR9Iy SxRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1HHtfMIH23UVxywTkdAOWi8HcA3nJUVBTu/RZTaje8OLZ5HABp nCk62IdRj7aUXeXpHYy3lCwm4HI8ujz0iwjGhcB5Mg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLEtfeHLu4c13KVfDPZhZxw2NrgHvx+jYqGcNtMkedwDVoiyYL2UFIkGeA7XcC+h42cu/zSjh6T7FkNJuvkvo8= X-Received: by 2002:a24:5b81:: with SMTP id g123-v6mr1385813itb.1.1528771558454; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:45:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 2002:a4f:d028:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: References: <201806110132.w5B1WI5d094546@repo.freebsd.org> <344AA709-2DF7-405C-AB4D-4F0978834EA1@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:45:57 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5r0cW1EG4UMRVQ9KuXVoUpUZns0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r334939 - head/stand/lua To: Devin Teske Cc: Kyle Evans , src-committers , svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.26 X-BeenThere: svn-src-all@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "SVN commit messages for the entire src tree \(except for " user" and " projects" \)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 02:45:59 -0000 On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 6:23 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > > On Jun 11, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Devin Teske wrote: > >> >> On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Devin Teske wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> > On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Kyle Evans wrote: >>> > >>> > Author: kevans >>> > Date: Mon Jun 11 01:32:18 2018 >>> > New Revision: 334939 >>> > URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/334939 >>> > >>> > Log: >>> > lualoader: Allow brand-*.lua for adding new brands >>> > >>> > dteske@, I believe, had originally pointed out that lualoader failed >>> to >>> > allow logo-*.lua for new logos to be added. When correcting this >>> mistake, I >>> > failed to do the same for brands. >>> > >>> >>> You=E2=80=99re doing an amazing job, Kyle. >>> >>> I continually see nothing but genuine effort toward feature parity whic= h >>> makes me think one day I can pass the reigns. >>> >>> Yeah, I will always love Forth. It will always hold a special place in >>> my heart as that whacky language that simultaneously exudes great power >>> while also having the image ability to induce vomiting =F0=9F=A4=AE by = the >>> uninitiated. >>> >>> However, all that being said, I=E2=80=99d actually like to keep the Fic= l boot >>> stuff as an option through to 14.0 and here is why ... >>> >>> Last year we were looking to update from ficl3 to ficl4. That may not >>> sound too exciting to most folks, but most folks don=E2=80=99t know the= power that >>> ficl4 brings =E2=80=94 like the capability to use full networking in th= e loader! >>> Can lua do that? How cool would it be to be able to communicate with th= e >>> network from the loader before the kernel is even loaded into memory? I= had >>> a few hair-brained schemes left for Forth which might be exciting, lol >>> >> >> The current boot loader can already communicate via NFS or TFTP today. >> Adding http would be easy, https would be harder due to crypto being hug= e >> and space being small (though bear ssl might be small enough). >> >> The last articulated plan in arch@ was that LUA will be default in 12, >> and we plan to remove FORTH in 13. Last time I said it there in February= , >> there was only email agreeing that I could find. This matches the in-per= son >> consensus poll I took at BSDcan as well. I think it would take a very >> extraordinary set circumstance and severe problems with LUA to change th= ose >> plans. >> >> >> At BSD Can there was the boot working group where we discussed that an >> FCP would be required to decide this. >> > > In the working group you weren't listening and being rather combative and > demanding that I do stuff, > > > I think that's an unfair characterization of the situation, but it doesn'= t > matter -- that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. > > > > so I stopped talking. > > > Hopefully we can _start_ talking. As the principled author of this work, = I > want to have a say in its deprecation since I still maintain that body of > work. > > > It should not be taken as a sign of my consent, but more a sign of not > wanting to get into a yelling match in public on a topic I thought had be= en > settled months ago. > > > Nobody asked *me* about how I would like to see *my* work removed from th= e > tree. I think I should have a say. > > I think I've been pretty darn helpful in the process by providing > substantive and helpful feedback to not only Kyle but also on the GSoC > project etc. I've not stood in any ones way. For being so helpful, I woul= d > expect a level respect in this matter. > > > > I raised my desires that I would like to be able to flip a knob in 13 and >> reboot between Ficl and Lua, back and forth. >> >> Give people a choice until we have done a "shake-out" through an entire >> major version. >> >> An honest-to-goodness procession would be, in my mind: >> >> 13: Has both; both are installed. End-user can boot back and forth >> between the two >> >> Problems that arise in one or the other are non-critical because there i= s >> always an "out" by running the other. >> >> 14: Has both but both are not installed. The installer media doesn't eve= n >> have it. You can't install the Forth booth stuff unless you twist a knob= in >> buildworld, optionally going down the path of generating release media >> which has the Forth boot stuff. >> >> 15. It's removed from tree. You can't build Forth boot. Lua only. No >> looking back, no way to build it with Forth, to get Ficl you need to go = to >> ports. A Ficl with FreeBSD boot words no longer exists and is no longer >> maintained. All of bhyve userboot also therefore uses Lua. >> > > That's way too long. 12 will have Lua by default, but you can build FORTH > if you want has been the plan since February when I socialized this on ar= ch@. > I originally pitched coexistence, but there was little appetite for that. > > So I think a FCP discussed in arch@ is the right path forward. > > > We sat on the GSoC for years. Why all of a sudden do we need to ship this > in less than 6 months? > > There are new features in Forth for 12 and they work and Lua has not > caught up to them (e.g., Boot Environments in the loader menu) and you wa= nt > to make Lua the default in 12? This doesn't make sense. > > The timeline I suggested is more amenable to actually crossing the finish > line with a fully-functional drop-in replacement. > -- > Devin >