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Date:      Thu, 01 Jul 2010 06:05:28 +0200
From:      Cyrille Lefevre <cyrille.lefevre-lists@laposte.net>
To:        "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
Cc:        Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>, Julian Elischer <julian@elischer.org>, Erik Cederstrand <erik@cederstrand.dk>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: dwb : groff replacement proposal
Message-ID:  <4C2C1408.6080703@laposte.net>
In-Reply-To: <201006302100.o5UL0L5X058705@fire.js.berklix.net>
References:  <201006302100.o5UL0L5X058705@fire.js.berklix.net>

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Le 30/06/2010 23:00, Julian H. Stacey a =E9crit :
>> Den 30/06/2010 kl. 19.07 skrev Steve Kargl:

Hi,

first of all, I'm not asking to rid out groff from FreeBSD, but I know
that *BSD aims to be FSF not aware.

I've just seen a few days ago that the "Documenters Work Bench" is=20
available for download.

for the ones who don't know what is the DWB, it's the nroff/troff=20
package which inspired groff... no more than this.

I then inform you about a possible replacement of groff w/ the DWB.
well, the license has to be studed, the troff driver list would be=20
minimal and the mdoc macros would probably be adapted.

however, it would probably render manual pages on tty, which is the=20
primary usage asked, I am wrong ?

>>> The fact remains that there is no available alternative that
>>> contains the functionality of groff.

maybe not all functionalities, but at least the one which is to render=20
well on tty. I may be wrong... of course, for printing, groff will be=20
more adavanced, but is this really needed for the common usage ? and if=20
this feature is needed, it may be sufficient to have if from ports.

>> I still can't read from this discussion if FreeBSD base actually needs=

>> all the functionality that groff provides, and if the proposed
>> alternatives are lacking needed functionality which cannot be worked
>> around by simple changes to the distributed man-pages like the ones
>> committed in the last weeks.
>>
>> I may be horribly misinformed, but man-page rendering does seem like a=

>> fairly simple task.

you're right.

> There's more use of groff than just being a man page builder.
>
> I personaly use it for lots of things, eg

this point doesn't require groff in src/ :-)

> Doubtless some other groff users too, whether or not on FreeBSD mail li=
sts.
>     There's been a roff in Unix since V6 ie 1978 or so.  Principle
>     of least surprise tilts us to try to avoid discarding it from
>     src/ to ports/, as it would make our Unix less easy to use than
>     others (&  we BSDs are supposed to be true Unix inheritance :-)

nobody's asking to get rid of *roff...

> Even BSD needs groff:
>     If some people might rewrite all FreeBSD manuals in some
>     other format, that would still leave other BSD uses of groff eg:
>     new imports to src/ of bits from other BSD eg Net/Open/Dragon whate=
ver,
>     ditto if we import sources from other Unix eg Linux,
>     Solaris, HP-UX etc,&  just think of the vast swathe of 3rd
>     party PD software in ports, chunks written by long time Unix
>     people, who of course have written manuals for tools in
>     roff/ nroff/ troff/ groff type syntax.

if the mdoc macros may be adapted to the DWB, there would be no loss of=20
functionality and since the usual manual pages uses the man macros,=20
which is of course provided as well as the mm and ms macros ones.
it's not even impossible than the DWB render better then groff :-)
in any case, it's just a story of macros, no more than this, no need to=20
rewrite anything and so.
the only problem may be the use of GNUism as if someone wanted to run as =

bash script under dash... they are wrong to go this way.

> Tossing groff out of src/ to ports/ (as someone suggested a month
> or so back) would be bad.

except if an acceptable replacement alternative exists and the DWB may=20
be the one ?

Regards,

Cyrille Lefevre
--=20
mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre-lists@laposte.net





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