From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 13 18:24:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4119737B400 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vectors.cx (manifold.vectors.cx [64.163.147.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C2643E72 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from monkey@vectors.cx) Received: from vectors.cx (9a8891bd6a3b035aa85600df00b16994@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vectors.cx (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7E1P82e098691; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from monkey@vectors.cx) Received: (from monkey@localhost) by vectors.cx (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g7E1P8pN098690; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from monkey) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:25:08 -0700 From: Adam Weinberger To: RichardH Cc: Adam Weinberger , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed Message-ID: <20020814012508.GA2818@vectors.cx> References: <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> <1631.192.168.1.10.1028329834.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020802194944.R95370-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <2534.192.168.1.10.1028334913.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net> <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813190756.00aa2bc8@mail.richardh.wsonline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813190756.00aa2bc8@mail.richardh.wsonline.net> X-Editor: Vim 6.1 http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5 http://www.mutt.org X-URL: http://www.vectors.cx http://www.crackula.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org please do not cc me further on these messages. i feel comfortable in my choice of O/S's, and don't desire to take place in a Unix pissing contest. -Adam >> (08.13.2002 @ 1815 PST): RichardH said, in 7.5K: << > A) he is an idiot, FBSD was not designed to play quake or other crap on. > B) If he needs to look at a f*ing word doc then either figure out star or > open office or stick with Winshit > C) show me that big ole RH box running as a web server that will run in > excess of 5000 users and not crash, no prob with FBSD if you have a hard > enough system and a good line. > D) FBSD is designed as a server, not to play quake (again), or to look at > hooters on the internet. It provides the hooters to Win users like him :) > > Please create and move this to freebsd-crap > > > > At 06:45 PM 8/13/2002, Adam Weinberger wrote: > >this email belongs on freebsd-advocacy, not freebsd-questions nor > >freebsd-chat. > > > >-Adam > > > > > >>> (08.13.2002 @ 1735 PST): John-David Childs said, in 5.9K: << > >> I was going to let this thread by, but I just can't help it. > >> > >> I've been using FreeBSD for almost eight years. Unfortunately, I > >> haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like...I keep thinking > >> that someday soon this will change, especially as I get more and more > >> pissed at the holier than thou attitude of most people on the questions > >> and stable lists (as referenced by the example below). > >> > >> If you like FreeBSD because it's a niche OS that no one else you work > >> with knows, or it makes you kewl, or you think it gives you job > >> security, or you like the little devil, press delete now. If you like > >> FreeBSD because the VM rocks, the ports/packages system kicks a$$, or > >> the (until recently) excruciatingly close scrutiny of MFC'd patches and > >> security issues, and you believe you have a civic duty to "show them the > >> way", then you're the audience I'm addressing. > >> > >> Plain and simple...the reason that Linux is used by 10 people (I'm > >> probably massively underestimating) for every FreeBSD user (not counting > >> Apple's marketing campaign) has NOTHING to do with whether it's a better > >> OS. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Linux is easier to > >> install *and maintain* than FreeBSD...and most responses on the > >> questions/stable lists seem to think that's ok ("let the idiots use > >> Linux, the people who know use *BSD"). The problem with that thinking > >> is that if "no one" (term used loosely) uses *BSD, then > >> > >> 1) getting a user-base large enough to effectively trouble-shoot/improve > >> the OS becomes difficult. If an up-and-coming programmer/hacker is > >> looking ahead to which OS is likely to land them a job...it's not going > >> to be Free/Open/NetBSD. > >> > >> 2) getting driver support from commercial entities is next to > >> impossible. If there aren't enough users to justify demand, it isn't > >> going to be (cost) effective to write/support it. > >> > >> 3) getting support to install it as a server OS in medium-large > >> (especially non-ISP) based businesses is next to impossible. While *BSD > >> may have scored some initial successes, and Apple's support of BSD is > >> admirable (but Apple has always been considered a "niche" player, and > >> has fsckd-up more "initiatives" than I can count), most corporate > >> managers whose jobs are on the line will ask themselves "If the shit > >> hits the fan...". > >> > >> Less users = less admins = less programmers = less (corporate) support = > >> less installations = less demand = less users = > >> > >> Granted...I don't want any of the *BSD's to become a RedHat behemoth, > >> but I would like to not have cream pie thrown in my face every time I > >> suggest a FreeBSD server. Five years ago, when *BSD and Linux were > >> roughly neck and neck, it wasn't that hard to sell *BSD on technical > >> merits. Now...it's all about who will support it when I get hit by a > >> truck. How easy is it to set up? How easy is it (compared to Linux, > >> Solaris, SGI, AIX, HPUX, etc) to install and administrate? Can it do > >> clusters? Can it (natively) participate in a SAN? Is there a > >> commercial package for VLAN support? How 'bout a commercial firewall? > >> (Yes, I know and you know that ipf/ipfw/TIS does the job, but once we > >> leave the company the next admin either has to spend days/weeks learning > >> ipf/ipfw or s/he'll trash it immediately, bad-mouthing your stupid > >> decisions all the way up the management chain). > >> > >> And it all starts with a (relatively) easy to use installer (sysinstall > >> has gotten MUCH better, but still has too many ways to get lost in > >> TABS/ESC/whoops and still looks infantile to other text-based > >> installers), and at least the option for a workstation install (not a > >> "instant workstation" port, which could take hours or days to > >> compile/install, but an out-of-the-CD installation of Gnome or KDE with > >> (or without, by choice) popular options (Evolution, > >> OpenOfffice/Abiword+Gnumeric, etc)). And yes, a "dummy-fied" package > >> upgrader like RedHat Updater or MandrakeUpdate (which friggin rocks when > >> you have to update 50 machines across an enterprise). > >> > >> BSD'ers have always been a finicky lot, and have always preferred the > >> RTFM/do-it-yourself approach. That's great...to a point...but > >> eventually will relegate us to the land of A/UX, CP/M, and OS/2 (now > >> there's a niche player). "You decide which is right, and which is an > >> illusion." > >> > >> As requested, replies are redirected to freebsd-chat. I'm going to see > >> about getting some "official" time to work on the installer, or the > >> docs, or both. Replies directly to my address will be /dev/nulled > >> because of the list spam collectors...those of you who "know" will be > >> able to find me :-) > >> -- > >> > >> John-David Childs (JC612) Enterprise Internet Solutions > >> Systems Administration 9616 Pecos St, Thornton > >CO 80260 > >> & Network Engineering A fourth .sig line is a > >waste! > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 18:44, Jim Mock wrote: > >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 at 20:35:13 -0400, Mike wrote: > >> > > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Mike wrote: > >> > > >> Stick with videos.. Please. -- > >> > > > > >> > > > Very funny. You mean "videoconferencing." And anyways, there is > >an > >> > > > expression: "The best of both worlds," you know? > >> > > > >> > > "videoconferencing." > >> > > It's two words. Not one. > >> > > I know all about you. Your all about SPAM. Besides, ask a stupid > >> > > question > >> > > >> > That would be "You're". If you're going to flame him for > >> > "videoconferencing" at least spell shit right otherwise you end up > >> > looking even more stupid than you did for flaming him in the first > >> > place. > >> > > >> > > get a stupid answer. you know? At least get a decent name for this > >> > > FreeBSD os you want to chop into linux and make it so any sweaty wife > >> > > beating greaseball can run a "Server" > >> > > >> > Enough already. Take this nonsense off list if you want to have a > >> > bitchfest. There's enough mail that comes through here without having > >> > to scrape through this garbage too. > >> > > >> > - jim > >> > > >> > -- > >> > jim mock jim@FreeBSD.org > >> > > >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > >> > >>> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from John-David Childs << > > > > > >-- > >"Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw." > > -Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch" > >Adam Weinberger > >adam@vectors.cx > >http://vectors.cx > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > >> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from RichardH << -- "Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw." -Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch" Adam Weinberger adam@vectors.cx http://vectors.cx To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message