From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 8 08:05:55 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6C5C2F for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:05:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zhao6014@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73ED62C95 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:05:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id b13so237418wgh.3 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=AgVLwz+Tu6vmveOAi3e+JJB+PjS3HCwGnlMGX8d5lVk=; b=byhuQKopu4WGb00kW7HMzdbMY29e5RwDHy2AwKt5aR6cShhhUNM7fdBU8oGTNrDqoB q91MB5qosKaC311ayVZUIPl4vQqnV/lhmAfLf7IPjCVtbngidtz3dOTGW5CCtd61hvxy CkeXSGg+8wSytqFIUrA5FQ/f80V+hI3KLfFrV77LFMd4saP0bzEe6B97C4eFRu3U+5Ld zOjG2U1R9Whn7s90OLYDImqQn7xWgOORCAu9aNwflotO43ugu5WaAhxZrsrwhtMEfQBk puxctttNPRT7GB/N7uGQtVnGBBimboNRaAl+YrnK+mPdF8RhEalQSTeuKU7ScXOcYxPs L6yw== X-Received: by 10.194.9.70 with SMTP id x6mr373166wja.22.1381219552512; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: zhao6014@gmail.com Received: by 10.194.33.98 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 01:05:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20131003084814.GB99713@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <524D6059.2000700@FreeBSD.org> <524DD120.4000701@freebsd.org> <20131003203501.GA1371@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004061833.GA1367@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004063259.GC72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004065753.GV82824@droso.dk> <20131004070158.GE72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004111256.GC98118@admin.xzibition.com> <52519F61.6090506@lechindianer.de> From: Jov Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 16:05:32 +0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 03b5IgIP_sS-vYMioQJ2eYw9SJg Message-ID: Subject: Re: [HEADSUP] Staging, packaging and more To: Mathias Picker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: Pascal Schmid , FreeBSD Ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:05:55 -0000 +1 Jov blog: http:amutu.com/blog 2013/10/8 Mathias Picker > > > > > Pascal Schmid schrieb: > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > >On 10/06/2013 07:21 PM, Bernhard Fr=F6hlich wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ulrich Sp=F6rlein > >wrote: > >>> 2013/10/4 Bryan Drewery : > >>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 09:01:58AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:57:53AM +0200, Erwin Lansing wrote: > >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:32:59AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin > >wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Please no devel packages. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Seconded. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What's wrong with devel packages? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It complicates things for developers and custom software on > >FreeBSD. The typical > >>>>>>>> situation that I see on most Linux platforms is a lot of > >confusion by people, why > >>>>>>>> their custom software XYZ does not properly build - the most > >common answer: they > >>>>>>>> forgot to install a tremendous amount of dev packages, > >containing headers, build > >>>>>>>> tools and whatnot. On FreeBSD, you can rely on the fact that if > >you installed e.g. > >>>>>>>> libGL, you can start building your own GL applications without > >the need to install > >>>>>>>> several libGL-dev, libX11-dev, ... packages first. This is > >something, which I > >>>>>>>> personally see as a big plus of the FreeBSD ports system and > >which makes FreeBSD > >>>>>>>> attractive as a development platform. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On the other ends, that makes the package fat for embedded > >systems, that also makes > >>>>>>> some arbitrary runtime conflicts between packages (because they > >both provide the same > >>>>>>> symlink on the .so, while we could live with 2 version at > >runtime), that leads to > >>>>>>> tons of potential issue while building locally, and that makes > >having sometime insane > >>>>>>> issues with dependency tracking. Why having .a, .la, .h etc in > >production servers? It > >>>>>>> could greatly reduce PBI size, etc. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Personnaly I do have no strong opinion in one or another > >direction. Should we be > >>>>>>> nicer with developers? with end users? with embedded world? That > >is the question to > >>>>>>> face to decide if -devel packages is where we want to go or not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If we chose to go down that path, at least we should chose a > >different name as we've > >>>>>> used the -devel suffix for many years for developmental versions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I must agree that it is one of the things high on my list of > >things that irritate me > >>>>>> with several Linux distributions but I can see the point for for > >embedded systems as > >>>>>> well. But can't we have both? Create three packages, a default > >full package and split > >>>>>> packages of -bin, -lib, and even -doc. My first though twas to > >make the full package > >>>>>> a meta-package that would install the split packages in the > >background, but that would > >>>>>> probably be confusing for users at the end of the day, so rather > >just have it be a real > >>>>>> package. > >>>>>> > >>>>> I do like that idea very much, and it is easily doable with stage > >:) > >>>> > >>>> +1 to splitting packages for embedded usage. > >>> > >>> -1 for the split, as it will not fix anybody's problem. > >>> > >>> On regular machines, disk space is cheap and having to install more > >packages is just annoying > >>> to users. Think of the time wasted that people are told to apt-get > >libfoo-dev before they can > >>> build anything from github, or similar. > >>> > >>> If you actually *are* space constricted on your tiny embedded > >machine, what the fuck are you > >>> doing with the sqlite database and all the metadata about > >ports/packages anyway? Just rm > >>> /usr/include and /usr/share/doc, /usr/share/man, etc. when building > >your disk image. But you > >>> are doing that already anyway, so this solves no actual problem for > >you. > >>> > >>> My two cents Uli > >> > >> I also don't see why we need to optimize our packages for an embedded > >environment that is > >> usually very customized. Wouldn't it make more sense to provide some > >proper port / packaging > >> options/flags that help to optimize size of the packages without > >touching header files? People > >> could use that flags and poudriere to build their packages together > >with all their other > >> compiler flags and cpu optimisations. > >> > > > >+1 > > > >As far as I can see Daniel Nebdal's approach ("WITH_DEV_FILES" flag, > >and defaulting to "yes") > >sounds promising. > > +1 > > This doesn't change things in the standard case and follows existing > patterns, so I like it, too. > > Mathias > > > > >Pascal > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (GNU/Linux) > >Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > > >iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSUZ9hAAoJEAWefonBOgAfDlUP/3117hVdZ6WhrygIGnctSb49 > >V+i0SggAFxXuvFFYlkjexrWFpjMPN2H7vBtR9DVbLNwqb4En+mVj/LVY1ejS9TAQ > >gj/nKlK6HNdVQWQD8qLfzFUAzWwnSBco/rIOiGkOrHuvFSUCTV5gPehoJ+Vg8Qnz > >dyUp5SByePNpY1MGMTJZh9gKWJFtTe8DcanDBCVL65rZf/eOVPyiMwlQK+Fy2AQj > >OQgJxhkWJzvl5V9THsMGiSCzJ+9EMoC620F9WEs3MvO0Ky2zIercFJ2bDaks6CXn > >arNTsqTT1zI0sZNGNQMrnxYtQPgV3oCEAggj4ZOG0FkhmBkxWNOPUyahBUE/V8ds > >tvLvugzVzqeaIJWg3IKDNEfGGh0ZnAMhUakUHyJPDhuCLgb498uwElesmgaSvlky > >eotS4cWGVp2lquuf/xPRRl82K4ciozZi3mttRmrfoznK69p1HJbepCn9maIhFkii > >WqLTjKVkeZ778is8mw8dom/Qb8OEj+XR6Vetq7cLg4Is//zieKzSvMWm7QrW1dAI > >zohAjP+lMP5d3TEmeVqvSZhQ9ticzqGGaW4U7zxxRZ0Y/zxkBwe3cIBEpjTpnW9p > >/a0DJ3JodVBo79N2JheIqweCK9RPn8rOK5HxujnWcJ3jbQAgCxOdLd9iyN6IxOjI > >3pHI9pO++Am9ReFvL/Uy > >=3Dqm+q > >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ > >freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list > >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports > >To unsubscribe, send any mail to > >"freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >