From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 17:05:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A75106566C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6238FC1C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:05:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhm11 with SMTP id hm11so3301634wib.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=vKqyBBbtlOQ8J+CIkvkglPLj/fF5b2mywAuC9aAJObk=; b=gr122OREYMqendZoEgCImt0uOknHtez/RiF6lxN2Fu6wXhzHOAGjgn/7aJaxpy81pb JwO2HCqDlnU/kgZp9z4ah/zFh/fqb3gNgRmUGn+YgVpocu0FWiqS8ilD6+NyedJu46Fc YfQgwLHEsIRN4tC0xeVRRAG/sMyukt7DUM7AzPxFNLwMUYJblbMOfWqbbqHuworLEa+Z YvDC4MOy3Fz1Rln60NZ0KYMLmpxtdyaD9jQ3QcqyIpFPOBmvDsUJSOn+T9MtD7pMa12f I9NwAVZxHr3Ah7TWbW5X6IAECT9rxPXpjqvIM6VAme+IkHUB+ZneqD9O+PQM6nMxo+yR HBmQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.85.167 with SMTP id i7mr18049853wiz.8.1343840708438; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:05:08 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: attilio@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 17:05:16 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >>> >>> You don't want to work cooperatively. >>> >> Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in >> internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at >> BSDCan ? >> >> Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held privately ? > > Arnaud, > belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision > that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer > review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of > different details that you may not have under control when talking to > people, etc). > Whose call is it to declare something worth public discussion ? No one. Every time I see a "Suggested by:", "Submitted by:", "Reported by:", and especially "Approved by:", there should to be a public reference of the mentioned communication. > Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved > in initial brainstorming of some works, > Never. > but after this period > constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans > on the mailing lists or other media. > Again, never. By doing so, you merely put the community in a situation where, well, "We, committers, have come with this, you can either accept or STFU, but no major changes will be made because we decided so." The callout-ng conference at BSDCan was just beautiful, it was basically: Speaker: "we will do this" Audience: "how about this situation ? What you will do will not work." Speaker: "thank you for listening, end of the conference" It was beautiful to witness. > If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: > a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise > plan/roadmap/etc. > so not only you make it private, but it shamelessly failed... > b) there is still not consensus on details > Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference in the future. There is no problem with this. > and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. > Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing > list. > This is not the way "openness" should be about. - Arnaud > Attilio > > > -- > Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein