Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 12:13:20 -0800 From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au> To: Roelof Osinga <roelof@nisser.com> Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, FreeBSD Stable <freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: easyboot far into disk Message-ID: <199911072013.MAA13716@dingo.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:06:06 %2B0100." <3825A36E.5920209D@nisser.com>
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> > > Nice, if the boot process can work with the CHS driver. The problem
> > > is that is not always the case. E.g. mine. So you can't *get* up and
> > > running.
> >
> > Ok. Would you care to share some details of your problems, rather than
> > just the bile and vitriol?
>
> It has been over on -questions.
That's not very helpful.
> B.t.w. I fail to see bile and/or vitriol
> in stating that a problem occurres. You should've seen the first draft,
> written after a week of diligently trying, studying manpages, discussing
> over on -questions, reading relevant pages in Greg's book, etc.
With all that study, you still didn't come across the "do not put the
root filesystem above the 1024 cylinder mark" warning?
> > > SOL. You can copy the boot0cfg onto the fixit, but what about the
> >
> > Build it static.
>
> We were, and are, talking newbies here.
Newbies should read the instructions.
> > "We" being whom, here? Most of us can just fine. If your BIOS won't
> > translate "right" past the 1024 cylinder mark then you're in the
> > minority these days. But even then, you can build a new boot1/boot2
> > with packet-mode as default enabled and install them on the floppy. The
> > loader doesn't do packet mode yet simply because I haven't found a case
> > where it's been needed.
>
> Some others over on -questions. Would I have had a case for you! In
> case you're interested it's a Plato MB with a Quantum EL 5.1A. Again,
> I'm pretty much sure all this can be build and installed. What I dare
> to dispute, however, is the easy accessibility of friendly instructions
> outlining the process. For newbies.
You're welcome to contribute them.
> > > - boot had the -o packet option
> >
> > I don't follow what you're suggesting here.
>
> Simple. boot0cfg clearly does something to something. boot can be
> interupted. Why not put the code that does something to something into
> boot so that on ancient machines that need it it can be had without
> going through the hoopla's needed to get it currently.
Please go look at the code for boot0. Please tell us where it's
possible to put this extra functionality. Please tell us why this is
ncessary when the instructions, and everything pertaining to booting PC
operating systems, tell you not to install above 1024 cylinders.
> From a newbie's
> perspective pressing space and entering "boot -o packet"
You can't get that far if you need packet mode.
> is way more
> prerable than building a statically linked boot0cfg, injecting that -
> usually by magic incantation - into some diskette, executing said
> executable together with new cabalistic handweaving only to end up
> with something that could mayhap have been incorporated in the
> first place.
Now here's the interesting bit. Don't you think that if it was
possible and desirable, we would have done it already? So perhaps the
reason it hasn't been done is technical, and not based on the fact that
we hate people like you?
You really have two options here:
a) Invest the time and effort required to understand the issues
involved. This will mean a lot more than "a week" worth of study.
Once you've done this, you'll have a better perspective for
understanding the issues involved.
b) Trust that the people actually working on the code have some idea
of what they're doing, and avoid attacking them. Note that you
will generally get better responses from people if you don't rub
them up the wrong way first.
> > > - the install disks could be used to access ones root disk
> >
> > They can.
>
> So people keep telling me. I spend over a week on it an I tell you
> they can't. Not in any sensible way, that is. Compared to this, say,
> Linux is pure bliss. You pop in the disk enter the root and you're off.
> Better yet, the process is described in the installation README. Even
> a newbie can do that, especially with some handholding.
Only if you've installed below the 1024 cylinder mark.
> > They have been, but ideally there shouldn't be any magic required.
>
> Granted on the latter, but as to the former... what does one need to
> ritually slaughter in order to find those reputed instructions?
Common sense is typically enough. The boot(8) manpage covers the
second-stage bootstrap in considerable detail. The loader(8) manpage
covers the loader pretty well. The loader also has an internal
interactive help system.
> > > - people that yell RTFM would be automatically throttled
> >
> > That's stupid. Documentation exists to save our time and effort. If
> > you're too lazy to read it, you've got it coming to you.
>
> I don't know. It's a good way to cull population growth. But you're
> missing the point. What newbie would know what docs to read in the
> first place? Don't tell me boot0cfg is intuitively named <g>. From a
> newbie's perspective that wouldn't know a boot if it reset him. E.g.
A "newbie" should not be involved in anything related to this, as they
should have been following Rule #1: DO NOT INSTALL ABOVE 1024 CYLINDERS.
> > TFM still tells you to put the root filesystem below 1024 cylinders.
> > In most cases, you can get away with anything up to 8GB, but we don't
> > document that because of people like yourself.
>
> Yeah, yeah. Got a system running quite happily with >10 GB. Thank you
> very much. The problem here is that FreeBSD on this particular box does
> not do what Linux does, namely correctly detecting the disk geometry.
I'm at a loss as to why "correctly detecting" the disk geometry is an
issue. If there's more than one OS on the disk, FreeBSD will us the
geometry as indicated in the slice table, which is the only one that
should be considered. If there isn't more than one OS, it doesn't
matter what the geometry is.
> Completed, naturally, by being locked into the installation process if
> you go back to the install disks. Come hell or high water, when you exit
> it you reboot. If there is a way to install the root in such a way that
> it uses the correct disk geometry I have failed to find it. In which I
> am not alone, b.t.w.
It's called "fixit mode", and it's documented in the online help, and
right there on the first menu you see when sysinstall starts. You can
also abort the boot process after the mfsroot image is loaded, just
like the message with the 10-second countdown tells you.
--
\\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith
\\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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