Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:21:18 +0100 (CET) From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl> To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com> Subject: RE: Swan song Message-ID: <XFMail.990326072118.asmodai@wxs.nl> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost>
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On 26-Mar-99 Brett Glass wrote: > After pondering, silently, what to do about the attitudes I've seen > expressed on this list, I've decided that I'd best save my time, > bandwidth, and effort by resigning from it. > > Ironically, my first attempt to resign (which failed because it somehow > went to the list instead of the listserv) brought several responses > prompting me not to do so. They almost changed my mind.... UNTIL I read > the following from Jordan Hubbard, the FreeBSD project's nominal "leader:" > >>Frankly, I don't see any benefits these days which outweigh >>the disadvantages of multiple-day flamewars on -advocacy. You're >>clearly on the debit side of the ledger and if you now propose to get >>out before you get any further into the red, I can't argue with the >>wisdom of that. Happy trails, dude! :) > > Spoken like a true leader. Oh, and this same "leader" is steering > developers away from the FreeBSD platform by telling them to "do Linux > first" -- and, effectively, FreeBSD never. Although I can disagree with some of Jordan's discissions at times I also can respect some of the others he made. The problem I now see with FreeBSD is the fact that true innovation is sometimes hold back by the more conservative teammembers. > Nor have others been more encouraging. My attempts to lay out > tactics and strategies for FreeBSD advocacy have met with scorn, > derision, and personal attacks. One of the things I learned the last few weeks/months is that words just don't cover all if one is expecting a whole lot of people to join the fray. I, myself, have thus started to make sure some software packages which I deem important compile and work a-ok on FreeBSD (that is: zebra, gtk+/gnome related stuff, and some other things) and that some new software gets developed primarily under BSD. > As for the specific project I most recently proposed: I still firmly > believe that making other platforms emulate FreeBSD -- NOT the > other way around -- is the only tactic which can save FreeBSD from being > smothered by Linux. If FreeBSD does not establish itself as the ABI and > API of choice, it will die -- its best code co-opted and released under > the GPL as part of Linux, the rest discarded due to an insufficient > user base to keep up with Linux's progress. Emulation is fine as long as it isn't a default. I'd hate to see FreeBSD become just an OS that can run emulation and thusly have userland tools. If that is the general consensus or idea now, then I find this lack of true BSD support a lack of those who think this way. Try to do some programming on existing code, provide BSD compatibility towards the code, and in the _ultimate_ case use emulation. That's what I have done and am still doing (anyone remember the thread in which Terry and I moaned about the patches directories from /usr/ports don't get reported back often enough?). > To see this, one must only look at history. As I've mentioned earlier, > OS/2, like FreeBSD, was technically superior to the more popular Windows, > but lost all vendor support because it emulated a product with the larger > installed base. (Yes, there were other reasons; however, this was THE nail > in the coffin.) OS/2 couldn't track Windows forever (just as FreeBSD's > Linux emulation may not always be able to track Linux), and application > vendors saw no reason to add a new SKU it when they could write only for > Windows. Without applications, a platform dies -- and so it was with OS/2. Emulation has to _enrich_ a product, not replace it. > FreeBSD emulation for Linux (and, for that matter, other UNIX-like OSes > and even NT) would not have anywhere near this many hurdles to overcome. > It would encourage the development of hundreds -- even thousands -- of > native applications and become a stabilizing force in the raucous UNIX > world. And developers could do what they could not do with Linux: Use the > time-tested code of the utilities as the foundation of their own > applications. > > We must therefore ask ourselves : Is FreeBSD to be an OS/2 or a Java? Neither, a comparison with a programming language isn't that useful IMHO. And certainly not an OS/2. We just need application developers to be creative and write native apps. I know I do, I know some others who do, how about the rest of you guys? > I was interested, strongly, in trying to make it the latter. But since > at least some people on this list seem not to be able to learn from the > past nor to develop a version from the future, it will likely be > fruitless to try. I admit that I sometimes have the idea that we're not that aimed at the future, it might have several reasons and I really don't feel like discussing it right now. But I can only hope to change it by my work and words and make a change for the better... > So, farewell. I'm sure you'll manage to run FreeBSD into the ground > without me. Sorry to say this Brett as I've never really took offence in yer mails as some did, but it's time to quit yer moaning and bitchin' and start doing something. This FreeBSD community knows people who are willing to do things, but I have seen that there needs to be a foundation before they care to tread on it. So why not write some articles and mail them off towards some mags? Do what ye proposed yerself. That's all I can say... So long, IMHO -advocacy lost a wellvoiced person... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <http://www.freebsdzine.org>; asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>; *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how <http://www.freebsd.org>; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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