From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 11 10:30: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97BE151AC for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id CAA27552; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 02:29:50 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3788D1C7.4F9094AE@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 02:17:59 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pictures from USENIX References: <199907081819.UAA29454@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > I'm not asking any of you to prepare a resume - we're starting JUST with > > the core team bios and pictures here. :) > ^^^^ > > i knew you were not humans... Well, what's important is that by publishing the core team BIOS, we'll teach those GPLers that we are truly an Open Source operating system! :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org I'm one of those bad things that happen to good people. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 11 14: 0:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D2614C0C for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:00:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4E8B for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:58:08 -0400 Message-ID: <378905F3.3A71598E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:00:35 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: it,es-CO MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The Juniper Open-Source License Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ahem.. I love this license: http://www.obtuse.com/open_source/ "The licence and distribution terms for any publically available version or derivative of this code cannot be changed. i.e. this code cannot simply be copied and put under another distribution licence [including the GNU Public Licence.]" cute :-). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 11 21:52: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2117E15112 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-109.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.109] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA02691 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:44:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <378972B9.CB0912C4@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:44:41 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freeBSD.org Subject: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to know what they did here, because in my own experience the evidence points the other way. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 2:27: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A45414D47 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 02:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA04483; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:25:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990712032216.0476b5b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:24:56 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Juniper Open-Source License In-Reply-To: <378905F3.3A71598E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good intent, but not well phrased. Instead of saying "publically available version or deriative of this code" (which, by the way, contains a misspelling), it should say, "distribution of this source code, or the source code of a derivative work". --Brett Glass At 04:00 PM 7/11/99 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Ahem.. > >I love this license: > http://www.obtuse.com/open_source/ > >"The licence and distribution terms for any publically available version >or derivative of this code cannot be changed. i.e. this code cannot >simply be copied and put under another distribution licence [including >the GNU Public Licence.]" > >cute :-). > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 5:17:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Gambit.Msk.SU (Gambit.Msk.SU [194.190.206.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D68B14E2C for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 05:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from laskavy@Gambit.Msk.SU) Received: (from laskavy@localhost) by Gambit.Msk.SU (8.0/8.9.3) id QAA02416; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:16:39 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:16:38 +0400 From: Sergei Laskavy To: root@chi.alameda.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [anoncvs] Remote: Bad file modes for /ctm/FreeBSD/anoncvs Message-ID: <19990712161638.A1774@gambit.msk.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear administrator! Doing env CVS_RSH=ssh cvs up I got the following output from ssh: |SSH Version 1.2.27 [i386--freebsd3.2], protocol version 1.5. |Standard version. Does not use RSAREF. |host: Reading configuration data /usr/local/etc/ssh_config |host: ssh_connect: getuid 1000 geteuid 1000 anon 1 |host: Connecting to anoncvs.freebsd.org [207.90.181.9] port 22. |host: Connection established. |host: Remote protocol version 1.99, remote software version 2.0.13 (non-commercial) |host: Waiting for server public key. |host: Received server public key (768 bits) and host key (1024 bits). |host: Host 'anoncvs.freebsd.org' is known and matches the host key. |host: Initializing random; seed file /home/laskavy/.ssh/random_seed |host: Encryption type: idea |host: Sent encrypted session key. |host: Installing crc compensation attack detector. |host: Received encrypted confirmation. |host: Remote: Server does not permit empty password login. |host: No agent. |host: Trying RSA authentication with key 'laskavy@Berkeley.Gambit.Msk.SU' |host: Remote: Bad file modes for /ctm/FreeBSD/anoncvs -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |host: Server refused our key. |host: Doing password authentication. |anoncvs@anoncvs.freebsd.org's password: |Permission denied. |cvs [update aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any) I noticed, that the host key was changed. May you restore the anoncvs setup? -- Sergei Laskavy, http://ls.si.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 9:14:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F85214EBF; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA14392; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:13:49 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:13:49 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > It seems someone who seems to be rather inexperienced has done > some benchmarks with FreeBSD against Linux. They're so > amazingly -- well -- stupid. > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > What's the complaint? "We" won 3 out of 5 tests? > -- > Chris Costello > The whole is the sum of its parts, plus one or more bugs Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 10:22: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A577150C2; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id TAA19933; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:20:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id TAA15994; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990712193432.16491@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:34:32 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Narvi Cc: Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks References: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 07:13:49PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi writes: > > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > > > What's the complaint? "We" won 3 out of 5 tests? The complaint is: badly done benchmark. Who cares if "we" won or not ? It's a discredit for serious operating systems :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 15:31:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from p.funk.org (node1484.a2000.nl [62.108.20.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B8F14CE1 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexlh@p.funk.org) Received: (from alexlh@localhost) by p.funk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA25713; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:30:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alexlh) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:30:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Alex Le Heux Message-Id: <199907122230.AAA25713@p.funk.org> To: kris@airnet.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We're talking about a 2% difference in cpu utilisation here. Is that even statistically significant? Even if it is, the difference is tiny, and probably mostly in the driver. Use whichever card works best on the OS you use it on. Alex In list.freebsd.chat, you wrote: >I'd like to know what they did here, because in my own experience the >evidence points the other way. > > >-- >Kris Kirby > >------------------------------------------- >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- +--------------------------------+-------------------+ | SMTP: | E-Gold: 101979 | | ICBM: N52 22.64'6 E4 51.54'1 | PGP: 0x1d512a3f | +--------------------------------+-------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 15:43:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2959152A0 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08224; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:41:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt054n86.san.rr.com To: Alex Le Heux Cc: kris@airnet.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! In-Reply-To: <199907122230.AAA25713@p.funk.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Alex Le Heux wrote: > We're talking about a 2% difference in cpu utilisation here. Is that > even statistically significant? Yes. I have more than one environment where every cpu cycle is precious, either due to long-term load or due to the need for fast recovery from load bursts. A fundamental design element for a server OS (as opposed to a desktop OS) is to always assume that *every* cpu cycle is valuable. Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 17:29:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BECEE14CE0 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23620; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:32:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907130032.TAA23620@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 19:29:01 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 19:28:55 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: Doug Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:28:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: kris@airnet.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199907122230.AAA25713@p.funk.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Jul 99, at 15:41, Doug wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Alex Le Heux wrote: > > > We're talking about a 2% difference in cpu utilisation here. Is that > > even statistically significant? > > Yes. I have more than one environment where every cpu cycle is > precious, either due to long-term load or due to the need for fast > recovery from load bursts. The question wasn't if 2% is significant, but if the measurement was statistically significant. Sure, it was measured. But was it a real measurement, or a stopwatch error. In truth, Novell's Perform3 is not the best of tests.... I've seen a number of nets performing at 110 to 120% of their available bandwidth.... > A fundamental design element for a server OS (as opposed to a > desktop OS) is to always assume that *every* cpu cycle is valuable. Okies... if you say so... still, 2% change can be caused by a driver change. And the results are only valid on the OS where they were tested. With the patches in place. etc, etc, etc. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 17:38:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64779150B1 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:36:15 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , "Doug" Cc: , Subject: RE: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:36:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000001beccc7$b6f21830$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907130032.TAA23620@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > A fundamental design element for a server OS (as opposed to a > > desktop OS) is to always assume that *every* cpu cycle is valuable. Funny, this claim is the opposite of what I've usually heard. Generally, for desktop use, performance is considered more important that stability or reliability, which is why people often overclock processors in their desktops. Whereas, for server use, performance (I'm talking 5% or 10%, not factors of 2) takes a back seat to almost everything else. You can always buy a faster CPU, or another CPU, for your server. You can always add more RAM. You are far more concerned with things like clean design, extra safety checks to prevent crashes, and so on. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 18: 6:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C882B152AA; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:06:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA03606; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:04:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <378A8FAC.797E9147@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:00:28 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Replacement for grep(1) (part 2) References: <1336.931774684@zippy.cdrom.com> <199907121814.MAA43237@harmony.village.org> <19990713012452.A5595@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > > Oh I forgot the one about having a veto system for I don't remember what... Veto based locking for the fs. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org I'm one of those bad things that happen to good people. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 18:25:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80EB15230 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09400; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:23:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt054n86.san.rr.com To: David Schwartz Cc: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, kris@airnet.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! In-Reply-To: <000001beccc7$b6f21830$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > A fundamental design element for a server OS (as opposed to a > > > desktop OS) is to always assume that *every* cpu cycle is valuable. > > Funny, this claim is the opposite of what I've usually heard. Generally, > for desktop use, performance is considered more important that stability or > reliability, which is why people often overclock processors in their > desktops. Well I was thinking more along the lines of, "Sure, I'll put X and massive graphical screensavers on my desktop because I'm the only one who has to wait if that slows it down." As opposed to, "Don't run anything on the server that doesn't absolutely have to be there because if that slows down it affects my customer's perception of my service." Overclocking is an interesting angle to approach this from though. I overclock(ed) my desktop and server processors for my little home system, but I'd never overclock a machine I didn't have daily physical contact with because the possible damage from heat (resulting in big down time) outweighs the possible benefits. > Whereas, for server use, performance (I'm talking 5% or 10%, not factors of > 2) takes a back seat to almost everything else. You can always buy a faster > CPU, or another CPU, for your server. You can always add more RAM. You are > far more concerned with things like clean design, extra safety checks to > prevent crashes, and so on. *Nod* The argument I seemed to be hearing from the poster I responded to was, "Why add that optimization to the code if it only buys us 2%?" He has since corrected my impression. The types of decisions you're talking about are far more likely to come about in terms of, "If we add this sanity check to the code we take a 5% performance hit, but it increases reliability from 98% to 99%. In both the desktop and the server case I'd say go for it, since I don't want avoidable downtime on either machine. This is where sun has freebsd beat cold. They may only be operating at 80% efficiency, but at 99.99% reliability. (Yes I know that there are exceptions to both cases, I'm talking in the general case.) Now that I've given everybody plenty to argue about, I'm going to go buy some pants. Have a nice night, Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 18:47:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31426152BE for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:47:16 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Doug" Cc: Subject: RE: 3C905 versus Intel Etherexpress PRO/100?! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:47:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000001beccd1$a2a3af60$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > *Nod* The argument I seemed to be hearing from the poster I > responded to was, "Why add that optimization to the code if it only buys > us 2%?" A 2% optimization that makes things more complicated would probably be a bad tradeoff on a server or server OS. Cleanliness of implementation is a major priority there, because you really do need rock-solid reliability and maintainability. That tends to stress straightforward design and punish excessive cleverness. I don't particularly care if I have to reboot my desktop. But it really irritates me if I have to reboot my servers. It irritates me more if they reboot themselves. However, I have to admit that while I understand this and agree with it, I make 'dangerous' optimizations to server code all the time. All of those 2% optimizations eventually add up to 20% optimizations -- and that does matter. And after enough time and testing, the new and dangerous code becomes less new and, hopefully, less dangerous. If I were comparing two operating systems for use as a web server, would I care about a 15% performance difference? Would that mean anywhere near as much the difference between 99.9 percent uptime and 99.95 percent? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 12 19:20:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC8614F42 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03344; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199907130215.TAA03344@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Warner Losh Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacement for grep(1) (part 2) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:14:10 MDT." <199907121814.MAA43237@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:15:57 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In message <1336.931774684@zippy.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > : Paging Terry Lambert, Terry Lambert - do you read me? It's time for > : your annual rant on the topic of memory overcommit. :-) > > I thought it was time for his annual rant about how the current > FreeBSD development model is going to have problems scaling... Some people would say that his conclusion, at least, is right. -- \\ The mind's the standard \\ Mike Smith \\ of the man. \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ -- Joseph Merrick \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 9:53:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from loki.ideaglobal.com (loki.ideaglobal.com [194.36.20.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2E014EE8 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kiril@loki.ideaglobal.com) Received: (from kiril@localhost) by loki.ideaglobal.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA28198 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:00:25 GMT (envelope-from kiril) From: Kiril Mitev Message-Id: <199907131700.RAA28198@loki.ideaglobal.com> Subject: wondering about MP .... To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:00:25 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone hazard a guess wrt where does FreeBSD stand in terms of Multi-Processor support compared to Net/Open ? ps. plz cc me Kiril To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 10:26:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ayukawa.aus.org (ayukawa.aus.org [199.166.246.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADE9152F4 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lh@aus.org) Received: from PHOENIX.ZER0.NET (lh@PHOENIX.ZER0.NET [199.166.246.189]) by ayukawa.aus.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08665 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907131725.NAA08665@ayukawa.aus.org> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-10 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: lh@aus.org From: Luke To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: security check for setuid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been noticing lately /etc/security is taking a real long time to run , in particular the check for suid files. Has anyone got a faster method than the one in there now? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 12:28:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0556414C8E; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA27293; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:33:42 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:33:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990712193432.16491@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Narvi writes: > > > > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > > > > > > What's the complaint? "We" won 3 out of 5 tests? > > The complaint is: badly done benchmark. Who cares if "we" > won or not ? > > It's a discredit for serious operating systems :-) > Badly done operating systems are a discredit to operating systems. Badly done benchmarks are a discredit to benchmarks. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 14:16:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851061506C; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18944; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:15:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:14:57 -0600 To: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:30 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. Ever hear of Cheap Bytes? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 14:34: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D561507D; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id XAA07210; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:32:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id XAA18957; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:46:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990713234608.05117@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:46:08 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 13, 1999 at 03:14:57PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 11:30 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it > >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. > > Ever hear of Cheap Bytes? Err... Who engineers the releases for the Cheap Bytes ? They're the same bits as the WC Cdrom. You're confusing distribution, media and packaging, IMHO. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 15:46:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F98A1535F; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:46:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA10154; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA07564; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:44:04 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA24988; Tue, 13 Jul 99 15:44:04 PDT Message-Id: <378BC133.65CD6266@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:44:03 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:30 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it > >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. > > Ever hear of Cheap Bytes? Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? Welcome back, Brett. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 17:21:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4A51534C for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16652; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:21:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016597; Tue Jul 13 17:21:09 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19095; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:21:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907140021.RAA19095@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: how to start to be a hacker? To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:21:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199907061327.IAA11296@hostigos.otherwhen.com> from "Mike Avery" at Jul 6, 99 08:25:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > An exchange student was working for my wife in a library on the > east coast, and said she was going to visit her friends in Washington > over a 3-day weekend. She was going to take the train. My wife > was familiar with Washington DC, so she suggested a few resturants, > and was told, "No, not Washington DC, my friends are in Washington > state!" > > If there was an excellent train service, she'd have had just enough > time to make it to Washington state, get a cup of coffee, get back > on the train, and drink the coffee on the way back. But train service > gets worse and worse the farther you get from the east coast. > Sadly, the student couldn't afford a plane ticket, so the visit with > friends was considerably delayed. FWIW, in the same way that vistors can get a Europass to travel Europe by train, visitors to the US can get a pass that will allow them to ride standby at no additional cost on aircraft in the US. This option is generally very cheap; cheaper than the train fare. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 18:35:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C0A15366 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15085; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:35:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd015067; Tue Jul 13 18:35:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22506; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:35:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907140135.SAA22506@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:35:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <001701bec974$a7711d30$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 8, 99 12:04:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In general, an operating system should be used for what it does best. If > FreeBSD doesn't run INN very well, use Solaris or Linux. And don't upgrade > production servers without making sure the new operating system version can > handle the job well. > > At WebMaster, we have NT servers, Linux servers, FreeBSD servers, Sparc > servers, and an Irix server. We use each machine for what it does best. I'd be interested in a list of things that FreeBSD doesn't do as well as the other servers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 21:34:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE9D1503F; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22412; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:31:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:31:54 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378BC133.65CD6266@softweyr.com> References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:44 PM 7/13/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. >Welcome back, Brett. To what? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 21:51: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4F614D5F for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA01177 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:33:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m1149V4-000WyXC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:50:02 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: wondering about MP .... Date: 13 Jul 1999 22:48:33 +0200 Message-ID: <7mg8n1$14lb$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199907131700.RAA28198@loki.ideaglobal.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kiril Mitev wrote: > Can anyone hazard a guess wrt where does FreeBSD stand in terms of > Multi-Processor support compared to Net/Open ? FreeBSD supports SMP on i386. NetBSD/OpenBSD don't have any multiprocessor support yet. Which is somewhat unfortunate since there are nice multi-CPU Suns out there, and running Solaris on them seems like a waste. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 13 21:51:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E178014D5F for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 59867 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1999 04:49:02 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 04:49:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:49:02 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:44 PM 7/13/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. > > Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. > So what? They have to avoid the Walnut Creek compilation copyright. Big deal. Do they have a code base that isn't the FreeBSD CVS repository? If they don't, they aren't a different distribution than FreeBSD, Inc's. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 2:12:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0350153D6 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA23148; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:10:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA20040; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:24:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990714112458.54837@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:24:58 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <378BC133.65CD6266@softweyr.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 13, 1999 at 10:31:54PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [trimmed Cc:] Brett Glass writes: > >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. > > Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. It's a part of the FreeBSD dist. -- but as far as "FreeBSD, the source tree" is concerned: - it's the same bits & sources - noone reaaranged them in any way (like, "Gee, I prefer libc6 instead of libc5" or "let's recompile everything with -mpentium", and "/var/mail sucks -- let's put everything in /var/spool/mail"). > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. It was so subtle I'm still looking for it. > >Welcome back, Brett. > > To what? That was a subtle point. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 7:18:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tellique.de (big-gw.tellique.de [195.126.133.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D06D14CC9 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by mail.tellique.de (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03975; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:18:02 +0200 Message-ID: <378C9C19.79F0447C@tellique.de> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:18:01 +0200 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH, Germany X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Michael Elbel Subject: Re: IA64 References: <19990709151940.A13563@consol.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Elbel wrote on freebsd-chat: > Well, all I can say is that in a former life at a former company we > were indeed building workstations with i860 processors and only > those. Intel *themselves* supplied a SYSVR4 port to the i860 that we > used as the base of our own version. I hope I am not giving you away when I mention that this must have been the Cadmus Firebox, the only general-purpose machine based on the i860 I have ever heard about. At that time, I had a bet running with a friend of mine -- he said that at latest at the end of the second year after that one ('92 sounds right, so we targeted end of '94) there would be cheap i860 workstations at less than DEM 30000(*). The Firebox sold for more than twice as much. (*) something between USD 15000 and 20000 at the time He not only lost the bet, but could not name a *single* other i860 workstation. That made for a fine carton of champagne, which we emptied together (and with some friends). > I believe that Gary Jennejohn still uses one of the beasts as an X > terminal. Cool. Does anybody have one for sale? :-) Greetings, -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 9: 7:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAFB14D28 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25812; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:07:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt054n86.san.rr.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907140135.SAA22506@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > In general, an operating system should be used for what it does best. If > > FreeBSD doesn't run INN very well, use Solaris or Linux. And don't upgrade > > production servers without making sure the new operating system version can > > handle the job well. > > > > At WebMaster, we have NT servers, Linux servers, FreeBSD servers, Sparc > > servers, and an Irix server. We use each machine for what it does best. > > I'd be interested in a list of things that FreeBSD doesn't do as > well as the other servers. I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of anything NT does better than any unix though. :) Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 9:32:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CB514DF4 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:32:17 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 3WRWCZ26; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:33:05 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 114RxX-000057-00; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:32:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:32:39 +0100 To: Doug Cc: Terry Lambert , David Schwartz , scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Message-Id: <19990714173239.A302@palmerharvey.co.uk> References: <199907140135.SAA22506@usr02.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 09:07:24AM -0700 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 09:07:24AM -0700, Doug wrote: > I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of > anything NT does better than any unix though. :) Run Microsoft products? -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11: 7: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA7D1543A for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27057; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:06:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:06:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt054n86.san.rr.com To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Terry Lambert , David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <19990714173239.A302@palmerharvey.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > On Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 09:07:24AM -0700, Doug wrote: > > I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > > webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of > > anything NT does better than any unix though. :) > > Run Microsoft products? Ok, I should have said, "anything _worthwhile_ ..." But seriously folks, the smiley at the end meant that was a joke. If someone is holding a gun to your head making you run some kind of windows app (and some of the stuff in our office is windows) then NT is the way to do it. If I were the one making the decisions I'd choose just about anything other than NT, but I don't get paid to make (the big) decisions, I get paid to implement them. Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:12:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A38153FC for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:12:13 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Doug" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:12:13 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece24$65a5c5e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of > anything NT does better than any unix though. :) Large RAID arrays. 4-way SMP. Applications requiring large numbers of threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX that comes close to NT's completion ports for efficient network I/O. I won't bother listing NT's problems -- we all know them. But it doesn't do us any good to ignore its strengths. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:17:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B4F14D1C for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:17:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:16:43 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Schwartz" , "Doug" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:16:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bece25$066b7510$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <000001bece24$65a5c5e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX That should read "log-based file system". I'm talking about NTFS. And it beats an fsck any day. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:24:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136BC15468 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id UAA18410; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:23:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA20756; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:38:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990714203806.46887@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:38:06 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? References: <000001bece24$65a5c5e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <000201bece25$066b7510$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000201bece25$066b7510$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:16:42AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz writes: > > threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX > > That should read "log-based file system". I'm talking about NTFS. And it > beats an fsck any day. Doesn't beat other LFSes. And what is it good at ? Integrity ? Fragmentation (hah!) Performance ? -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:27:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F94815489 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:26:54 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Phil Regnauld" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:26:54 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece26$72d03780$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990714203806.46887@ns.int.ftf.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > David Schwartz writes: > > > threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX > > > > That should read "log-based file system". I'm talking about > NTFS. And it > > beats an fsck any day. > > Doesn't beat other LFSes. And what is it good at ? > Integrity ? Fragmentation (hah!) > Performance ? Agreed. The question was not "what does NT do better than every UNIX". It was "what does NT do better than any UNIX". One other nice thing about NTFS (although certainly not unique) is that you can defragement it while it's operating. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:31:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009B615434; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA21698; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA05628; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:28:44 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA19264; Wed, 14 Jul 99 11:28:52 PDT Message-Id: <378CD6E5.5662FBFD@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:28:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:44 PM 7/13/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. > > Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration files, the same libraries, the same operating system. > > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. No, you thought you had a point to make, but you were mistaken. The Cheap- Bytes FreeBSD disc is roughly equivalent to disc 1 from Walnut Creek, and they both contain the same OS. Unlike Caldera, Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, SuSE, Turbo, etc., which are different operating systems that all use the Linux kernel. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:32:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028F215426 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id UAA18502; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:32:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA20787; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990714204622.17443@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:22 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? References: <19990714203806.46887@ns.int.ftf.net> <000001bece26$72d03780$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000001bece26$72d03780$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:26:54AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz writes: > > > > Doesn't beat other LFSes. And what is it good at ? > > Integrity ? Fragmentation (hah!) > > Performance ? > > Agreed. The question was not "what does NT do better than every UNIX". It > was "what does NT do better than any UNIX". One other nice thing about NTFS And again, XFS exists for UNIX, Softupdates will soon allow no-fsck operation... > (although certainly not unique) is that you can defragement it while it's > operating. FFS is even better: it doesn't fragment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:46:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC5614CE2 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:46:08 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Phil Regnauld" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece29$22a82b20$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990714204622.17443@ns.int.ftf.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FFS is even better: it doesn't fragment. Microsoft swore tat NTFS didn't fragement for a very long time. It wasn't until someone else wrote a degramenter and demonstrated that it could result in performance gains that Microsoft was ultimately forced to admit that NTFS might fragment a little bit, every once in a while. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 11:58:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3611515468 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:58:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p19s01a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.209.26] helo=marder-1.) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 114UD4-0002Mk-00; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:56:50 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id TAA00397; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:52:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:52:03 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: David Schwartz Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Message-ID: <19990714195203.A269@marder-1> References: <19990714204622.17443@ns.int.ftf.net> <000001bece29$22a82b20$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <000001bece29$22a82b20$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:46:08AM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:46:08AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > NTFS might fragment a little bit, every once in a while. I assume you forgot the :^) on the end of that :) "a little bit"? Have you any idea how many *hours* Diskeeper takes to defrag a 2.5GB NTFS partition after only a few weeks since the last defrag? > > DS > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 12: 2:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C66B1542C for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:01:52 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mark Ovens" Cc: "Phil Regnauld" , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:01:52 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece2b$55258370$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990714195203.A269@marder-1> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:46:08AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > NTFS might fragment a little bit, every once in a while. > > I assume you forgot the :^) on the end of that :) Yep. > "a little bit"? Have you any idea how many *hours* Diskeeper takes > to defrag a 2.5GB NTFS partition after only a few weeks since the > last defrag? Hmm. It's never been that bad for me. My 9Gb NTFS partitions defragment in less than an hour. My AdvFS partitions on Digital UNIX machines took days to defragment. And they were often more fragmented when they finished than when they started. Of course, this was a news server. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 13:27:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4AB414E5F; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29154; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:26:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:26:48 -0600 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:49 PM 7/13/99 -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >> Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. > > > >So what? They have to avoid the Walnut Creek compilation copyright. >Big deal. Do they have a code base that isn't the FreeBSD CVS repository? >If they don't, they aren't a different distribution than FreeBSD, Inc's. > >David Scheidt That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the kernel and even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to distinguish a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different setup program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different default configuration. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 13:36:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D0414FC7; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29262; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:34:44 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378CD6E5.5662FBFD@softweyr.com> References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:28 PM 7/14/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. By that definition, Red Hat and Caldera would be the same distribution. > > > > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. > >No, you thought you had a point to make, but you were mistaken. The Cheap- >Bytes FreeBSD disc is roughly equivalent to disc 1 from Walnut Creek, But it is not identical. It contains a different installation program and a different selection of third-party applications and utilities. This is the same distinction which exists between Linux distributions. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 14:47:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (korea-161.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.225.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7512C14FCB; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01369; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:28 PM 7/14/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set > >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration > >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. > > By that definition, Red Hat and Caldera would be the same distribution. You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 platforms. Hmm. Brett, your point wasn't valid, please don't start another useless flame war over something so unimportant. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15: 9:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BEE14E1C; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00347; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:14 -0600 To: Alex Zepeda From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:46 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: >You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. >For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC >system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package >management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 >platforms. As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux itself came from the same CVS tree. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:25:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C1515443; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA20358; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:24:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id AAA21201; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:38:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715003822.16534@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:38:22 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 04:09:14PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. What CVS tree ? Linux is not maintained under CVS. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:28:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD6F1549B for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:11 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mark Ovens" Cc: "Phil Regnauld" , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bece48$2778d4f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990714223600.A524@marder-1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > "a little bit"? Have you any idea how many *hours* Diskeeper takes > > > to defrag a 2.5GB NTFS partition after only a few weeks since the > > > last defrag? > > > > Hmm. It's never been that bad for me. My 9Gb NTFS partitions > > defragment in less than an hour. > > > > I guess it depends how full the partition is. My 2.5GB has >2GB of > data on it, not a lot of elbow room for Diskeeper to work with. My recollection is that Microsoft recommends that you keep your NTFS partitions less than half full to 'solve' this problem. > > My AdvFS partitions on Digital UNIX machines took days to > > defragment. And they were often more fragmented when they > > finished than when they started. > > Just to illustrate how bad NTFS is, there are certain files DK > won't touch (shelliconcache is one). Move them to another partition, > delete the original, defrag, move the files back, run DK again, > and guess what? the file(s) you just moved back are already > fragmented. Hmm. I've never heard that before. I wonder how it manages to do that. I think the amount of contiguous space reserved for a file when it's created is tunable. But making that too large just makes things worse. By the way, I just recently enabled softupdates on the FreeBSD machine that I use the most heavily. The performance difference is astounding. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:28:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4D9154A1; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32033; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:46 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > >You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. > > >For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC > >system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package > >management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 > >platforms. > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. Actually, there is no CVS tree for Linux :) I don't see what the big deal is. Who cares? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:30: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2AC61554F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:29:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA20421; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:29:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id AAA21225; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:44:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715004400.46241@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:44:00 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 02:26:48PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [can people PLEASE trim the Cc: ??] Brett Glass writes: > > That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the kernel and > even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to distinguish > a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different setup > program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different default > configuration. No, to differentiate two distributions, you have to compare what each defines to be the base set. FreeBSD has a base tree, it's called src+doc(+ports). So you would have to compare both dists -- same base set == same distribution. Or are you trying to give a new meaning to the word distribution ? (as in "version") To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:34:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B1915443; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00597; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:32:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714162928.045b8520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:30:13 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990715003822.16534@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pardon me; I meant to say from the same source tree. --Brett At 12:38 AM 7/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > > > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > > itself came from the same CVS tree. > > What CVS tree ? Linux is not maintained under CVS. > >-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:34:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699521546C; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00600; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714163037.045b9f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:32:15 -0600 To: Tani Hosokawa From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:28 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: >Actually, there is no CVS tree for Linux :) I don't see what the big deal >is. Who cares? We all should, because there's an important question here: What constitutes a distribution? I say that any package that includes a significantly different selection of components qualifies. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:41:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C470115401; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA25164; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA14849; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:39:26 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA02574; Wed, 14 Jul 99 15:39:41 PDT Message-Id: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:41 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:28 PM 7/14/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set > >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration > >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. > > By that definition, Red Hat and Caldera would be the same distribution. They would be if they shipped the same configuration files, libraries, etc. They do not. They ship the same kernel, with differing RedHat and Caldera configuration files, userland utilities, libraries, X servers, etc. This is not the case with CheapBytes and Walnut Creek FreeBSD discs. Cheap- Bytes takes the same kernel, libraries, utilities, and installation program and creates a single disc. Walnut Creek fills 3 additional disks with more binary packages, more source distributions, a live filesystem, and the CVS repository, but the entire operating system is the same. > > > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > > > > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. > > > >No, you thought you had a point to make, but you were mistaken. The Cheap- > >Bytes FreeBSD disc is roughly equivalent to disc 1 from Walnut Creek, > > But it is not identical. It contains a different installation program and > a different selection of third-party applications and utilities. This is > the same distinction which exists between Linux distributions. This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. The CheapBytes disc is a subset of what is on the Walnut Creek disk, but the system installed in your hard disk after running either install is the same. This is NOT true with Red Hat vs. Caldera (vs. Debian vs. etc) and no matter how many times you say it is, it STILL won't be. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:43:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6927415450; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA25196; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA14933; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:42:59 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA02732; Wed, 14 Jul 99 15:43:14 PDT Message-Id: <378D1283.1DC90AE2@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:43:15 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:46 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > >You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. > > >For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC > >system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package > >management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 > >platforms. > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. What part of "Linux is a kernel, not an OS" didn't you understand? The part that required you to know the difference between the two? Quote the "Wes's criteria" you speak of here or shut up and stop INTENTIONALLY misquoting me. And, by the way, Linux doesn't have a CVS tree, or any other sort of source control system. They have Linus' home machine, and (hopefully) some backups somewhere. Great way to run a development program. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:49:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365A2154D1; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA20774; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:48:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id BAA21308; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715010308.38726@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:03:08 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 04:39:41PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- we call it fly fucking. :-) > The CheapBytes disc is a subset of what is on the Walnut Creek disk, but > the system installed in your hard disk after running either install is > the same. This is NOT true with Red Hat vs. Caldera (vs. Debian vs. etc) > and no matter how many times you say it is, it STILL won't be. What Brett is doing is pointing us at the dictionary definition of distrbution: CheapBytes and WC may not be the same distribution, because they were not distributed in the same way. Different distributions of the same version, then. This is redefinition for the sake of it, or procrastination -- in French: enculage de mouche, in Danish: flyknepperi. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:50:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F81154A7; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32295; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:50:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714163037.045b9f00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there any significant difference between either of the two FreeBSD "distributions"? On Linux, for example, the differences are really massive between distributions. Different libraries, different apps, different configurations, different file layouts,different administration tools... For example, Slackware has your basic installation wizard, a rudimentary package manager (really, it manages tarballs with an install script embedded in them), libc5 (libc6 now, but most of the binaries still are linked against libc5), and that's about it. RedHat has a spiffy installation wizard, all the authentication is PAMified, it supports MD5 passwords, has the RPM package manager, it uses SysVinit, all the configuration files are in /etc/, all the software is configured completely differently, Vixie cron instead of Dillon cron, different version of the C compiler, additional X drivers, ... in fact, most utils are significantly different. Stampede, also radically different. And it has the Stampede package manager. SuSE, uses RPMs, but again massive differences. ROCK, from what I understand, consists of a handful of shell scripts and some sourcecode. Debian uses the .deb packages. Again, not compatible with any of the others, although Debian can use RPMs. Now, if I log in to any one of these distributions with only knowledge of one, chances are I'm going to be functionally useless aside from basic tasks for about a week. I can't even copy binaries between some of these. If I log in to a Walnut Creek FreeBSD machine, then I check out a Cheapbytes FreeBSD machine, I'm probably not going to have any difficulty whatsoever. I can FTP down any packages I want from any standard FreeBSD FTP site, I can use the ports collection, it's all compatible, and for the most part, identical. I don't see any real difference between the two. Their fundamentally the same, and anything different is just fluff. On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:28 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: > > >Actually, there is no CVS tree for Linux :) I don't see what the big deal > >is. Who cares? > > We all should, because there's an important question here: What constitutes > a distribution? I say that any package that includes a significantly different > selection of components qualifies. > > --Brett > --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 15:52:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF4814DB8 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p9cs11a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.219.157] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 114XsP-0000rq-00; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:51:45 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id XAA00837; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:46:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:46:23 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: David Schwartz Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Message-ID: <19990714234623.C524@marder-1> References: <19990714223600.A524@marder-1> <000201bece48$2778d4f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <000201bece48$2778d4f0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 03:28:10PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 03:28:10PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > "a little bit"? Have you any idea how many *hours* Diskeeper takes > > > > to defrag a 2.5GB NTFS partition after only a few weeks since the > > > > last defrag? > > > > > > Hmm. It's never been that bad for me. My 9Gb NTFS partitions > > > defragment in less than an hour. > > > > > > > I guess it depends how full the partition is. My 2.5GB has >2GB of > > data on it, not a lot of elbow room for Diskeeper to work with. > > My recollection is that Microsoft recommends that you keep your NTFS > partitions less than half full to 'solve' this problem. > Buy a 2GB disk to store 1GB of data. Sounds on a par with "first re-boot, and if that fails, re-install the OS" to fix a problem :-/. I did read somewhere that BG had instructed the NT5 (W2K) developers to "consider anything that requires a re-boot as a bug". > > > My AdvFS partitions on Digital UNIX machines took days to > > > defragment. And they were often more fragmented when they > > > finished than when they started. > > > > Just to illustrate how bad NTFS is, there are certain files DK > > won't touch (shelliconcache is one). Move them to another partition, > > delete the original, defrag, move the files back, run DK again, > > and guess what? the file(s) you just moved back are already > > fragmented. Hmm. > > I've never heard that before. I wonder how it manages to do that. > Maybe I don't have enough free space for DK to consolidate it all, so when you write a file NT starts filling the 'holes' from the start of the partition (just like FAT). > I think the amount of contiguous space reserved for a file when it's > created is tunable. But making that too large just makes things worse. > > By the way, I just recently enabled softupdates on the FreeBSD > machine that I use the most heavily. The performance difference > is astounding. > Hmm, I may give it a try, mind you I doubt I use my machine heavily enough to notice a significant difference. > DS > > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 16: 1:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A05614DE5 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00900; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:00:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714165754.04555c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:00:05 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990715004400.46241@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:44 AM 7/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > No, to differentiate two distributions, you have to compare > what each defines to be the base set. > > FreeBSD has a base tree, it's called src+doc(+ports). > > So you would have to compare both dists -- same base set == same > distribution. I see that we disagree here. What if there were additional programs added -- say, a different setup program? Or a different window manager? What if there different default settings, or different programs were installed by default? What if the installation options were different? There are many ways to distinguish a distribution. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 16:10:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-12.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CF8154B5; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA01713; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. Nope. Read: > >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set > >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration > >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. The same libraries, the same configuration files. As I already pointed out, they're not the same. The kernel is not the whole operating system. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 17:34:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DE414E90; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01693; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:34:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:34:10 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld , Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990715010308.38726@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:03 AM 7/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Wes Peters writes: > > > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. > > Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- > we call it fly fucking. :-) In the US, we use a more polite term: "nit picking." But that's not what's going on here. FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. To say so would be to gloss over the difference between the distributions that are available, and also to suggest that the OS was so unpopular as not to be worthy of multiple distributions. > What Brett is doing is pointing us at the dictionary definition > of distrbution: CheapBytes and WC may not be the same distribution, > because they were not distributed in the same way. Or even with the same applications and utilities. > Different distributions of the same version, then. Exactly. Just as Red Hat, Caldera, etc. have different distributions of Linux that contain the same Linux kernel, there are different distributions of FreeBSD with the same versions of the kernel, etc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 17:44:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9361714E90; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00699; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:43:04 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:43:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. > > > > Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- > > we call it fly fucking. :-) > In the US, we use a more polite term: "nit picking." > > But that's not what's going on here. > > FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. To say so would be to gloss over > the difference between the distributions that are available, and also > to suggest that the OS was so unpopular as not to be worthy of multiple > distributions. Any time I've ever heard of this particular point being raised it was to boost FreeBSD, since it's easier to develop for a single platform. For example, the NTP people dropped official support of Linux because of the frequency of changes to the kernel, as well as the difficulty in making it work on all flavours of Linux. They mentioned FreeBSD specifically as a more stable platform developer-wise. > > What Brett is doing is pointing us at the dictionary definition > > of distrbution: CheapBytes and WC may not be the same distribution, > > because they were not distributed in the same way. > Or even with the same applications and utilities. > > > Different distributions of the same version, then. > Exactly. Just as Red Hat, Caldera, etc. have different distributions of > Linux that contain the same Linux kernel, there are different distributions > of FreeBSD with the same versions of the kernel, etc. Unless I'm mistaken, the Cheapbytes CD is copied from the "official" CD set, with stuff removed. What you have after installing is essentially identical. What's different? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 17:55:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B121542D; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01870; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714185301.046d7460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:54:16 -0600 To: Tani Hosokawa From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:43 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: >Unless I'm mistaken, the Cheapbytes CD is copied from the "official" CD >set, with stuff removed. What you have after installing is essentially >identical. My Cheap Bytes CD had a different selection of stuff to install than the Walnut Creek CD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 17:58:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA1814E90; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:07 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:07 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece5d$1a099ab0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Regardless, two FreeBSD-3.2 machines running different 'distributions' are probably going to be a lot more alike than two Linux-2.0.36 machines running different distributions. My belief is that this is both a good thing and a bad thing. This is simply another area where Linux and FreeBSD differ. Each operating system's respective adovcates will be happy to sing the praises of their operating system's respective choices and complain about other operating system's choices. David Schwartz Check your NTP server: http://www.gpsclock.com/check.html > FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. To say so would be to gloss over > the difference between the distributions that are available, and also > to suggest that the OS was so unpopular as not to be worthy of multiple > distributions. [SNIP] > Exactly. Just as Red Hat, Caldera, etc. have different distributions of > Linux that contain the same Linux kernel, there are different > distributions > of FreeBSD with the same versions of the kernel, etc. > > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 17:58:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5878E15487; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:08 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" , "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bece5d$1a9b0540$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Any time I've ever heard of this particular point being raised it was to > boost FreeBSD, since it's easier to develop for a single platform. For > example, the NTP people dropped official support of Linux because of the > frequency of changes to the kernel, as well as the difficulty in making it > work on all flavours of Linux. They mentioned FreeBSD specifically as a > more stable platform developer-wise. Amusing, considering that the latest versions of NTP run fine on Linux and break on FreeBSD. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 18: 6:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B74B14CCF; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02007; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:05:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714190320.04556180@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:05:29 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: , In-Reply-To: <000001bece5d$1a099ab0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:58 PM 7/14/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Regardless, two FreeBSD-3.2 machines running different 'distributions' are >probably going to be a lot more alike than two Linux-2.0.36 machines running >different distributions. > > My belief is that this is both a good thing and a bad thing. It could be either! It depends upon the way in which those systems are alike. For example, if the userland commands are similar, it's less likely that a person who runs or administers one will have trouble with another. But it's also good to have distributions tailored for different needs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 18:13:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bootes.ebtech.net (bootes.ebtech.net [142.250.0.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A59214F54; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@geeky1.ebtech.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bootes.ebtech.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id UAA13034; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:32:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (paul@localhost) by geeky1.ebtech.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA25955; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:56:44 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:56:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Anderson To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC > system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package > management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 > platforms. Hmm. > Sorry, but, you're just plain wrong. RedHat *DOES* include KDE and Qt, Caldera uses RPM just like RedHat, the text configuration files are almost *EXACTLY* the same, the only real difference is in commercial products included with the distribution and the GUI config tools. TTYL! --- Paul Anderson - Self-employed Megalomaniac paul@geeky1.ebtech.net Member of the Sarnia Linux User's Group http://www.sar-net.com/slug http://zephyr.sellad.on.ca/~paul "Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." -- Henry Ford To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 18:50:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AA015081 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28378; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:04:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd028336; Wed Jul 14 19:04:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10329; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:50:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150150.SAA10329@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:50:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, davids@webmaster.com, scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jul 14, 99 09:07:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > At WebMaster, we have NT servers, Linux servers, FreeBSD servers, Sparc > > > servers, and an Irix server. We use each machine for what it does best. > > > > I'd be interested in a list of things that FreeBSD doesn't do as > > well as the other servers. > > I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of > anything NT does better than any unix though. :) I'll argue the threads with you until I'm blue in the face, if you want. 8-). Kernel threads are about the most bone-headed idea ever invented (the most bone-headed, as any idiot knows, is getting involved in a land war in Asia). Yeah, SGI is getting good at SMP. Buying Cray will do that for a company. The NFS stuff is demoralizing. Someone should contact the Unioversity of Guelph. For "purify", if you meant on Linux, I can't believe that you are serious, given some of the pig tricks for things like NULL pointer arguments to string functions... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19: 0:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189CF15402 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10739; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:59:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010729; Wed Jul 14 18:59:48 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10740; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:59:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150159.SAA10740@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:59:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, Doug@gorean.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000201bece25$066b7510$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 14, 99 11:16:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX > > That should read "log-based file system". I'm talking about NTFS. And it > beats an fsck any day. NTFS is significantly slower that even an unmodified FFS in sync mode. A modified FFS (i.e. with soft updates) does not require a fsck, but no one has bothered to write a cylinder group bitmap cleaner for it, which could easily run in the background. That, and disable the "clean bit" code, and distinguish "disk related OS failure" from "non-disk related OS failure" for the purposes of doing a full fsck on disk related OS failures. Note also that SGI is supposed to be releasing XFS sources some time soon; IMO, it would be trivial to port it; I don't know if I would bother with the plex manager (I like Simon's code for that), given that their non-unified VM and buffer cache have the buffer cache sandwiched between XFS and the manager. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19: 4:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3138715402 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02334; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:03:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907150150.SAA10329@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Yeah, SGI is getting good at SMP. Buying Cray will do that for > a company. > > The NFS stuff is demoralizing. Someone should contact the > Unioversity of Guelph. Just out of curiousity, are either of those statements any reason to choose FreeBSD over SGI or any UNIX with a better NFS implementation? I think the point here, is that FreeBSD isn't always the best choice. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:11:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED28914BCE for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13915; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:10:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd013904; Wed Jul 14 19:10:12 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11380; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:10:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150210.TAA11380@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:10:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Doug@gorean.org, tlambert@primenet.com, scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001bece24$65a5c5e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 14, 99 11:12:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Large RAID arrays. You mean software RAID, right? SCSI cables don't care what they are connected to. Hmmm. I could do a SCSI commercial: "So you want a RAID array? Well, at RAID-arrays-R-us, they do RAID the way you like it. But bring your SCSI card, because they don't do untagged commands, and they don't accept IDE... SCSI: It's everywhere you want your data to be" > 4-way SMP. We know this one. 8-). > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". > There's nothing I know of in any UNIX that comes close to NT's > completion ports for efficient network I/O. I want whatever you're smoking confiscated. Completion ports are no more, and no less, than VMS AST's. Just like aio* in FreeBSD, and much of the POSIX crap that's passing for standards these days. They may make it easier to code, by calling your callbacks, but the idea that network buffers should be in user space instead of on the kernel side of the protection domain barrier is just plain nuts. > I won't bother listing NT's problems -- we all know them. But it doesn't do > us any good to ignore its strengths. The anti-NT sentiment wasn't mine. On equivalent hardware, it handily beats FreeBSD's SMB server performance (one of the major impetus' for the work Kirk is now doing). I've address some of that in another posting, from my experience optimizing a similar hosted server for NetWare on Solaris, UnixWare, Dell UNIX, VMS, and AIX. The problems are correctable, but require work to be done, and code to be committed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:27:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20C01547F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20130; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:27:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd020079; Wed Jul 14 19:27:27 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA12176; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:27:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150227.TAA12176@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:27:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: markov@globalnet.co.uk, regnauld@ftf.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000201bece48$2778d4f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 14, 99 03:28:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I guess it depends how full the partition is. My 2.5GB has >2GB of > > data on it, not a lot of elbow room for Diskeeper to work with. > > My recollection is that Microsoft recommends that you keep your NTFS > partitions less than half full to 'solve' this problem. Somewhat like FFS recommends a 15% reserve, and used to compromise for a little fragmentation by reducing that to 10%. Effectively, block selection in FFS is a hashing operation, and as anyone who has read Knuth's "Seminumerical Algorithms: Sorting and Searching" should be able to tell you, has operations degrade rapidly, even with a "perfect hash", after 85% fill. Whoever set the current default to 8% made a similar fragmentation vs. free reserve trade (I hope it was done while conscious of the actual trade-off being made, given that "the steady state of disks is full"). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:32:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat194.85.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.194.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847FB14C83 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA57665; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:32:19 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:32:19 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , Doug@gorean.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907150210.TAA11380@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". In your first post, I suspected it, but this confirms it...I've never seen anyone quote "The Princess Bride" in an argument before ... *rofl* Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:37:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656C11547F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13238; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:35:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd013210; Wed Jul 14 19:35:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA12574; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:35:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150235.TAA12574@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: regnauld@ftf.net (Phil Regnauld) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:35:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990714204622.17443@ns.int.ftf.net> from "Phil Regnauld" at Jul 14, 99 08:46:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FFS is even better: it doesn't fragment. Sort of. It fragments after reaching better than 85% fill, and the more over this it goes, the more it fragments. In addition, although it's relatively trivial to expand a partition size (either by editing the disklabel to use contiguous free space, or by using Vinum or ccd to define a larger logical drive), doing so will not cause the simple hash to prefer the new area until it reaches an equivalent fill. The result is that, if the total fill in the original (now sub-) region exceeds 85%, that region suffers increased fragmentation. This means that if you have a 3G FS and you expand it to a 4G FS, you should expect significant fragmentation. The generally recommended "fix" for this is backup, then restore, the files, but a "defragmenter" that caused the data to be rehashed forcefully so that all cylinder groups has equivalent fill would be a better approach. Similarly, you can't reduce the size of an FFS partition. A defragmenter that could be told "this zone is off limits" would also be useful for shrinking FFS partitions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:38: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA701547F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02525; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:37:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:37:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907150210.TAA11380@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". BTW, what would you consider to be a large number of threads? 64? 128? More? How about a threaded webserver? Apache *is* going to be threaded, you know... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:43:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650431548F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:42:54 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:42:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece6b$bcf66740$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907150210.TAA11380@usr07.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Large RAID arrays. > > You mean software RAID, right? SCSI cables don't care what they > are connected to. Hmmm. I could do a SCSI commercial: Would that that were true. But unfortunately, a lot of hardware RAID controllers do care what driver they are talking to. And NT tends to get premium effort from the manufacturer. I think this same issue with Linux-versus-NT had a lot to do with the recent benchmark disasters. > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". Sadly, there are some problems that are very hard to solve any other way. Especially when licensing requirements get in the way. I'll give you a contrived example, since I'm not at liberty to go into details on the specifics of real examples. Suppose I might potentially have to do 3,000 'gethostbyname's at the same time in a commercial product. On NT, I can create 3,000 threads and call 'gethostbyname' in every one. Not pretty, but it works. On FreeBSD, I'm basically screwed. I'd have to write me own resolver library to do the job. Licensing problems prevent me from using pretty much every nice resolver library out there. > > There's nothing I know of in any UNIX that comes close to NT's > > completion ports for efficient network I/O. > > I want whatever you're smoking confiscated. > > Completion ports are no more, and no less, than VMS AST's. Just > like aio* in FreeBSD, and much of the POSIX crap that's passing > for standards these days. > > They may make it easier to code, by calling your callbacks, but > the idea that network buffers should be in user space instead of > on the kernel side of the protection domain barrier is just > plain nuts. They're on both sides in every implementation. It's just a matter of when the borders get crossed. > > I won't bother listing NT's problems -- we all know them. But > it doesn't do > > us any good to ignore its strengths. > > The anti-NT sentiment wasn't mine. On equivalent hardware, it > handily beats FreeBSD's SMB server performance (one of the major > impetus' for the work Kirk is now doing). I've address some of > that in another posting, from my experience optimizing a similar > hosted server for NetWare on Solaris, UnixWare, Dell UNIX, VMS, > and AIX. The problems are correctable, but require work to be > done, and code to be committed. And that's good, because this kind of comparison is what spurs development. Embarassing benchmark results have done a lot for Linux's development lately. :) DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:49:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39DE1548F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:49:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:48:09 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bece6c$79350420$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". > > BTW, what would you consider to be a large number of threads? 64? 128? > More? How about a threaded webserver? Apache *is* going to be threaded, > you know... I would hope that no matter how much Apache is threaded, it doesn't use a 'one thread per request' model. The cases where you honestly do require large numbers of threads (like 300 plus) are very rare. In every such case I've ever seen, it was theoretically possible to 'code your way out' of the need for that number of threads. The problem is that sometimes it's more effort than it's worth. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 19:52:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A254C1548F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02636; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:51:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:51:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000201bece6c$79350420$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > > > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". > > > > BTW, what would you consider to be a large number of threads? 64? 128? > > More? How about a threaded webserver? Apache *is* going to be threaded, > > you know... > > I would hope that no matter how much Apache is threaded, it doesn't use a > 'one thread per request' model. The cases where you honestly do require > large numbers of threads (like 300 plus) are very rare. > > In every such case I've ever seen, it was theoretically possible to 'code > your way out' of the need for that number of threads. The problem is that > sometimes it's more effort than it's worth. The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20: 7: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECABD154A5 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:06:21 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:06:21 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece6f$03c2c3a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? Yes. And it's bad design. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20: 7:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08A814FE6 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02810; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:07:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:07:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000001bece6f$03c2c3a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about > > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? > Yes. And it's bad design. I'm curious. How would you do it? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:11:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-3.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A58414FE6; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:11:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA00414; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Paul Anderson Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Paul Anderson wrote: > Sorry, but, you're just plain wrong. RedHat *DOES* include KDE and Qt, RH has only included and supported KDE/Qt in 6.0; and it did that very grudgingly. > Caldera uses RPM just like RedHat, the text configuration files are almost > *EXACTLY* the same, SuSE also uses RPM. But RPMs for SuSE wouldn't be guaranteed to work on RH and Caldera. There are enough subtle file system layout differences that RPMs are intentionally built for a specific distribution. At one time; there were PAM related bugs that tended to affect only RH because it was the only distro that used PAM. They are different, period. It's more than skin deep. A package designed for the official FreeBSD will also work on a CheapBytes system. > the only real difference is in commercial products included with the > distribution and the GUI config tools. TTYL! Caldera also includes a graphical installer (Lizard). RH OTOH has a text based one as well as DiskDruid or whatever it's called. CheapBytes and the "official" distribution have the same installer. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:12:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-3.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B9A154A3; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA00435; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:10:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714190320.04556180@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org With all this anal retentive nit picking not really serving an intelligent purpose, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned PicoBSD. If anything was a second distribution of FreeBSD; that would be it. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:18:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA91C14BB8; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27722; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027703; Wed Jul 14 20:17:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14817; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150317.UAA14817@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:17:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378D1283.1DC90AE2@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 14, 99 04:43:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And, by the way, Linux doesn't have a CVS tree, or any other sort of source > control system. They have Linus' home machine, and (hopefully) some > backups somewhere. Great way to run a development program. Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a number of the issues that result in the emergent property of forking in the BSD distributions deriving from the BSD distributions use of CVS. Bitkeeper is now publically available, so long as your change log (not including source, -- just comments) is visible on the web (or you buy a license). See http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk12.html for details. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:19:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C386154CD for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:59 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000301bece70$a40b5e20$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > > > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > > > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 > threads/process is about > > > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > > > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? > > Yes. And it's bad design. > > I'm curious. How would you do it? I would have a pool of threads and a job queue. Anything that can be done without blocking would be considered a job. When the server had jobs to do, it would queue them. The first 'free' thread would pull a job of the queue. If while processing a job I needed to block for any reason, I'd instead create a new job and set up to queue it when a particular network event occured. At least one special thread would call 'poll' for the set of jobs waiting for network I/O. When the network I/O could be completed without blocking, the special thread would move the job from the network queue to the active queue. When a thread became free, it would pull the head job off the active queue. If the active queue were empty, it would sleep waiting for a new job. The basic idea is that any time where you presently block on network I/O, you instead save your state and set it up so that when a 'poll' or 'select' that tells you that the network I/O can be completed without blocking, you pick up where you left off. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:28:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5AC2154A3 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02980; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:28:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:28:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000301bece70$a40b5e20$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > I'm curious. How would you do it? > I would have a pool of threads and a job queue. Anything that can be done > without blocking would be considered a job. When the server had jobs to do, > it would queue them. The first 'free' thread would pull a job of the queue. > If while processing a job I needed to block for any reason, I'd instead > create a new job and set up to queue it when a particular network event > occured. > > At least one special thread would call 'poll' for the set of jobs waiting > for network I/O. When the network I/O could be completed without blocking, > the special thread would move the job from the network queue to the active > queue. > > When a thread became free, it would pull the head job off the active queue. > If the active queue were empty, it would sleep waiting for a new job. > > The basic idea is that any time where you presently block on network I/O, > you instead save your state and set it up so that when a 'poll' or 'select' > that tells you that the network I/O can be completed without blocking, you > pick up where you left off. Pardon my parroting... I'm mostly going to regurgitate what's already been said on this subject by those more qualified than mysel. This has all been bantered about before, but I think the general consensus was that doing things like that made user-written modules very difficult, as the callback model is very non-intuitive. In addition, using a select/poll model leaves you open to major screwups, like if your disk I/O blocks unexpectedly, you'll hang the entire process, because there's no asynchronous I/O. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:39:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75E0154A3; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:39:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA70192; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:17:13 -0000." <199907150317.UAA14817@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:38:36 -0700 Message-ID: <70188.932009916@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a Who's "they", and please don't answer "The Linux community" or anything else which is equivalently vague to the point of absurdity, please be specific. Which group(s) are using it and what are the URLs pointing to on-line proof of this in each case? I ask these questions because your statement strongly implies that this technology is in active use now by "them" and that contradicts other statements I heard at USENIX, making the question of tangible proof somewhat relevant in deciding which story is true. Also please note that I'm not asking "which people will be using bitkeeper" or "which people are thinking of using bitkeeper", I'm asking who the current, active poster-children users of this product are. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:40:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat194.85.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.194.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D94614E21 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA58675; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:40:19 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:40:19 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Doug@gorean.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000001bece6b$bcf66740$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > Would that that were true. But unfortunately, a lot of hardware RAID > controllers do care what driver they are talking to. And NT tends to get > premium effort from the manufacturer. I think this same issue with > Linux-versus-NT had a lot to do with the recent benchmark disasters. I'm curious here, and definitely will admit to not being fully versed in this, but, at work, all our production servers are currently running Solaris (am working on getting some of the switch to FreeBSD) and my preference, to date, has been to use software RAID (Sun's DiskSuite). Main reason, the ability to transparently add drive space to a system. I can add, configure and grow a file system without having to shut down the server... With hardware RAID, there is no ability to 'grow a file system'...is there? I'm just quoting a project now where we're looking at using Solaris+DiskSuite because of the ability to do that...and am wondering if maybe I'm wrong with not going hardware vs software RAID... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:49:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C561517E; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03139; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <70188.932009916@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page that was given in the e-mail... I quote: "Everyone needs a good source management system. Since we are a Linux based company, we are especially tuned to the needs of the Linux team: Linus really needs good source management. The current Linux development model has some problems and Linus needs tools to help solve those problems. Without a decent distributed source management system, all of the merging and tracking work falls on Linus' shoulders and that is getting to be way too much for any one person, even someone like Linus. The goal of the Bitkeeper effort is to provide tools that help the Linux kernel effort, and more specifically, help Linus. If the tool is good enough for the Linux effort, it is more than capable enough for just about any other task. The problem with most systems is that they don't scale. They all work great for 1-5 developers. It doesn't matter which one you choose. However, they all tend to fall apart when you have 1000 developers. Since we have experience in source management, having designed and implemented most of Sun's TeamWare source management system, we are quite familiar with the scaling problem and feel that we can provide a better, more scalable and more reliable answer. We did it before, and this one is better." and "Release plans are delayed due to Linus' desire to have the LOD feature supported in version 1.0." If that's not enough, go skim the linux-kernel archives. On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a > > Who's "they", and please don't answer "The Linux community" or > anything else which is equivalently vague to the point of absurdity, > please be specific. Which group(s) are using it and what are the URLs > pointing to on-line proof of this in each case? > > I ask these questions because your statement strongly implies that > this technology is in active use now by "them" and that contradicts > other statements I heard at USENIX, making the question of tangible > proof somewhat relevant in deciding which story is true. > > Also please note that I'm not asking "which people will be using > bitkeeper" or "which people are thinking of using bitkeeper", I'm > asking who the current, active poster-children users of this product > are. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 20:50:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297E91517E; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA70262; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Tani Hosokawa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:13 PDT." Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:08 -0700 Message-ID: <70258.932010608@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based browsing interface, so where are they? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 21:12:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B98154CA; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03398; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <70258.932010608@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > browsing interface, so where are they? :) "Because we haven't written up a license yet, this is a closed beta" So, it's not in active use right now for Linux, but it will be shortly. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 21:13:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C671154E6 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:09:32 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:09:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bece77$d71c9fc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Pardon my parroting... I'm mostly going to regurgitate what's already been > said on this subject by those more qualified than mysel. Okay. > This has all been bantered about before, but I think the general consensus > was that doing things like that made user-written modules very difficult, > as the callback model is very non-intuitive. I disagree. There's no big deal if some threads do occasionally block. Other threads in the job pool will take over. The real problem is in a one-thread-per-request model, because in that case, if a thread ever blocks, it stalls a whole connection. Any sophisticated program will be non-trivial to add on to. But the beautiful part of a thread pool model is that you can break all the rules, and you'll only affect the code minimally. If you have to block, fine, you have to block. It's not ideal, but it's not a disaster either. > In addition, using a > select/poll model leaves you open to major screwups, like if your disk I/O > blocks unexpectedly, you'll hang the entire process, because there's no > asynchronous I/O. Umm, no. In the model I described, _all_ I/O is asynchronous. If your disk I/O blocks unexpectedly, that particular job will not complete until the I/O finishes, but it couldn't complete anyway. You won't even stall that request, unless the I/O was required to complete the request. (Obviously, a page get in a web server can't complete until you read in the page.) DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 21:24:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB10814D2F for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03488; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:23:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:23:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000101bece77$d71c9fc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > This has all been bantered about before, but I think the general consensus > > was that doing things like that made user-written modules very difficult, > > as the callback model is very non-intuitive. > I disagree. There's no big deal if some threads do occasionally block. > Other threads in the job pool will take over. The real problem is in a > one-thread-per-request model, because in that case, if a thread ever blocks, > it stalls a whole connection. If a thread is blocked, how will that connection continue anyway? The webserver doesn't have any information to send to the client in that case. > Any sophisticated program will be non-trivial to add on to. But the > beautiful part of a thread pool model is that you can break all the rules, > and you'll only affect the code minimally. If you have to block, fine, you > have to block. It's not ideal, but it's not a disaster either. As it currently stands, Apache is trivial to add on to. Anyone with a month's worth of programming knowledge can write major additions to the webserver through its module interface. This is because there are several layers of handlers for each phase of the system, which can have additional handlers attached almost anywhere. This is great in a one-thread-per-request system, because you can have arbitrarily complex handlers which won't adversely affect the other requests in progress, aside from the proportional decrease in available CPU. Any one request in its special handler phase can spin for as long as it needs, since the kernel will take care of assigning timeslices to the other requests being processed. > > In addition, using a > > select/poll model leaves you open to major screwups, like if your disk I/O > > blocks unexpectedly, you'll hang the entire process, because there's no > > asynchronous I/O. > Umm, no. In the model I described, _all_ I/O is asynchronous. If your disk > I/O blocks unexpectedly, that particular job will not complete until the I/O > finishes, but it couldn't complete anyway. You won't even stall that > request, unless the I/O was required to complete the request. (Obviously, a > page get in a web server can't complete until you read in the page.) How? I wasn't aware that you can poll on disk I/O. In a perfect world, there's asynchronous disk I/O, but last I checked all those aio_* functions weren't implemented everywhere. So, eventually you're going to have to do a read, and if you hang then, all jobs stall. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 21:32:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E33151A0 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:31:39 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:31:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000301bece7a$ededf700$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > This has all been bantered about before, but I think the > general consensus > > > was that doing things like that made user-written modules > very difficult, > > > as the callback model is very non-intuitive. > > I disagree. There's no big deal if some threads do > occasionally block. > > Other threads in the job pool will take over. The real problem is in a > > one-thread-per-request model, because in that case, if a thread > ever blocks, > > it stalls a whole connection. > > If a thread is blocked, how will that connection continue anyway? The > webserver doesn't have any information to send to the client in that case. Because there are other threads that will pick up other jobs. You only need to stall processing on that connection if the that particular job must be completed before the connection can proceed. If the job is, for example, a logging job, it will stall nothing. If it's a resolver job, you can design it to stall only until that information is needed. Since threads handle jobs and not connections, a stalled thread will stall a job, not a connection. Unless the job has to be completed for the connection to continue, stalling a job will not stall a connection. > > Any sophisticated program will be non-trivial to add on to. But the > > beautiful part of a thread pool model is that you can break all > the rules, > > and you'll only affect the code minimally. If you have to > block, fine, you > > have to block. It's not ideal, but it's not a disaster either. > > As it currently stands, Apache is trivial to add on to. Anyone with a > month's worth of programming knowledge can write major additions to the > webserver through its module interface. This is because there are several > layers of handlers for each phase of the system, which can have additional > handlers attached almost anywhere. This would not change. However, code that blocked would result in extra threads being required. In the worst possible case, where everything was badly designed and required an extra thread, you'd be back to one thread per connection. So you are starting off with my worst case. > This is great in a one-thread-per-request system, because you can have > arbitrarily complex handlers which won't adversely affect the other > requests in progress, aside from the proportional decrease in available > CPU. And the overhead of managing so many threads. And the affect that has on the caches. And the effect that has on the schedular. And the memory all their stacks eat up. And on, and on, and on. > Any one request in its special handler phase can spin for as long as > it needs, since the kernel will take care of assigning timeslices to the > other requests being processed. This is the same in the model I'm talking about, just replace 'request' with 'job'. > > > In addition, using a > > > select/poll model leaves you open to major screwups, like if > your disk I/O > > > blocks unexpectedly, you'll hang the entire process, because > there's no > > > asynchronous I/O. > > Umm, no. In the model I described, _all_ I/O is > asynchronous. If your disk > > I/O blocks unexpectedly, that particular job will not complete > until the I/O > > finishes, but it couldn't complete anyway. You won't even stall that > > request, unless the I/O was required to complete the request. > (Obviously, a > > page get in a web server can't complete until you read in the page.) > > How? I wasn't aware that you can poll on disk I/O. In a perfect world, > there's asynchronous disk I/O, but last I checked all those aio_* > functions weren't implemented everywhere. No, no. You don't 'poll' on disk I/O. You have a job that issues a disk I/O request. The thread performing that request, and thus that job, is blocked on the I/O. But the connection is not blocked, unless it requires the I/O. In other words, you only block when you absolutely need the data in order to continue processing that one job. > So, eventually you're going to have to do a read, and if you hang then, > all jobs stall. No, the current job stalls. How does one job stalling affect the others? Remember, you have a poll of threads (whose size is dynamically adjusted) pulling jobs out of the pool. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 21:49:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A3F1513C for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-243.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.243]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA29736 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:49:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <378D6850.FD080D21@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:49:20 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SQL Primers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of any good SQL primers? Or good books? -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 23: 5:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F10154E9; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id XAA27703; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id XAA03654; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:04:06 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA23696; Wed, 14 Jul 99 23:04:22 PDT Message-Id: <378D79E5.D429E5A4@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:04:21 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907150317.UAA14817@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > And, by the way, Linux doesn't have a CVS tree, or any other sort of source > > control system. They have Linus' home machine, and (hopefully) some > > backups somewhere. Great way to run a development program. > > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a > number of the issues that result in the emergent property of > forking in the BSD distributions deriving from the BSD > distributions use of CVS. If Linus uses BitKeeper to store his "backups", that's just fine and good. The point still remains that the list of people who can commit changes to the official Linux kernel remains at: Linus Torvalds > Bitkeeper is now publically available, so long as your change log > (not including source, -- just comments) is visible on the web > (or you buy a license). Bitkeeper has been publically available for quite some time; our system engineering group evaluated it last summer before choosing Perforce. It seems quite effective, but doesn't seem to scale well to geographically distributed development teams. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 23:11:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC971507C; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id XAA27763; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id XAA04458; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:09:27 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA23924; Wed, 14 Jul 99 23:09:38 PDT Message-Id: <378D7B21.51FCE5D3@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:09:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tani Hosokawa Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@whistle.com Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tani Hosokawa wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > > browsing interface, so where are they? :) > > "Because we haven't written up a license yet, this is a closed beta" > > So, it's not in active use right now for Linux, but it will be shortly. So you've just confirmed that no such specific documentation exists, or can exist, because Linux has not yet officially transitioned to BitKeeper. This also points out it will be some time before the scalability and usability of BitKeeper, or the willingness of the Linux leaders to submit to the discipline of such a tool can be proven. Gee, Terry, this seems eerily familiar. Who else do we know that ran through every existing source code control system on the planet but refused to submit to any of them himself? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 14 23:41: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B75E14E4B for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:40:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04446; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:39:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:39:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000301bece7a$ededf700$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I may be out of my depth here. However, that doesn't in any way mean that a) kernel threads are bad b) software shouldn't use > 300 threads c) that FreeBSD development should preclude software from operating efficiently just because a particular paradigm isn't believed to be optimal. This only lends credence to the fact that one OS can't do it all. If other OS decide to put more effort into threads (or, if FreeBSD remains below par comparitively), then in the future when Apache is threaded in the public releases, then those other OS will be a better platform for webserving under Apache. This will still leave FreeBSD as the undisputed champion of, for example, FTP serving. And QNX for embedded systems. Etc. On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > If a thread is blocked, how will that connection continue anyway? The > > webserver doesn't have any information to send to the client in that case. > > Because there are other threads that will pick up other jobs. You only need > to stall processing on that connection if the that particular job must be > completed before the connection can proceed. If the job is, for example, a > logging job, it will stall nothing. If it's a resolver job, you can design > it to stall only until that information is needed. > > Since threads handle jobs and not connections, a stalled thread will stall > a job, not a connection. Unless the job has to be completed for the > connection to continue, stalling a job will not stall a connection. > > > > Any sophisticated program will be non-trivial to add on to. But the > > > beautiful part of a thread pool model is that you can break all > > the rules, > > > and you'll only affect the code minimally. If you have to > > block, fine, you > > > have to block. It's not ideal, but it's not a disaster either. > > > > As it currently stands, Apache is trivial to add on to. Anyone with a > > month's worth of programming knowledge can write major additions to the > > webserver through its module interface. This is because there are several > > layers of handlers for each phase of the system, which can have additional > > handlers attached almost anywhere. > > This would not change. However, code that blocked would result in extra > threads being required. In the worst possible case, where everything was > badly designed and required an extra thread, you'd be back to one thread per > connection. So you are starting off with my worst case. > > > This is great in a one-thread-per-request system, because you can have > > arbitrarily complex handlers which won't adversely affect the other > > requests in progress, aside from the proportional decrease in available > > CPU. > > And the overhead of managing so many threads. And the affect that has on > the caches. And the effect that has on the schedular. And the memory all > their stacks eat up. And on, and on, and on. > > > Any one request in its special handler phase can spin for as long as > > it needs, since the kernel will take care of assigning timeslices to the > > other requests being processed. > > This is the same in the model I'm talking about, just replace 'request' > with 'job'. > > > How? I wasn't aware that you can poll on disk I/O. In a perfect world, > > there's asynchronous disk I/O, but last I checked all those aio_* > > functions weren't implemented everywhere. > > No, no. You don't 'poll' on disk I/O. You have a job that issues a disk I/O > request. The thread performing that request, and thus that job, is blocked > on the I/O. But the connection is not blocked, unless it requires the I/O. > In other words, you only block when you absolutely need the data in order to > continue processing that one job. > > > So, eventually you're going to have to do a read, and if you hang then, > > all jobs stall. > > No, the current job stalls. How does one job stalling affect the others? > Remember, you have a poll of threads (whose size is dynamically adjusted) > pulling jobs out of the pool. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 0:48:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A77152BC for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04575; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <378D91FD.AB21D216@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:47:09 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? References: <199907150150.SAA10329@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > At WebMaster, we have NT servers, Linux servers, FreeBSD servers, Sparc > > > > servers, and an Irix server. We use each machine for what it does best. > > > > > > I'd be interested in a list of things that FreeBSD doesn't do as > > > well as the other servers. > > > > I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > > webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of > > anything NT does better than any unix though. :) > > I'll argue the threads with you until I'm blue in the face, if > you want. 8-). I don't want, because I'm not qualified to argue the point with you _or_ DS. What I do know is that there are programs that use threads, and those programs perform poorly on freebsd. Whether not supporting things that are bad ideas (like threads might be) is the right tactical decision or not is also beyond me, however you asked for a list, so there you have it. :) When we spec'ed the servers I'm currently working on we never considered less than 2 cpu's. > Yeah, SGI is getting good at SMP. Buying Cray will do that for > a company. We hold our own at two processors, after that even linux kicks our ass. Four cpu servers are going to be the norm very soon, this is a game we need to get into in a big way. (Yes, I know there is a lot of agreement, yes I know that a lot of people smarter than me know the issues. :) > The NFS stuff is demoralizing. Someone should contact the > Unioversity of Guelph. Heh... even if I understood that point, I wouldn't argue it. You have no idea how happy I am that the nfs client code seems to be holding up now that I (seem to) have amd whipped into shape. NFS is also going to be the other norm sooner than later. Given that it seems like we are currently making good progress on NFS, and given that the issues revolving SMP (and threads) are bigger, thornier things I personally believe that NFS is our single biggest priority right now. Some might consider that self-serving, but I believed that long before I had any use for it myself. Now that I've seen what a Network Appliance box can do (and relatively cheaply), there is no question in my mind that solid, high-performing NFS code is what's going to make or break a server OS in the next 2 years. > For "purify", if you meant on Linux, I can't believe that you > are serious, given some of the pig tricks for things like > NULL pointer arguments to string functions... No, not on linux. :) Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 1: 0:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75156152BC for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19756 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199907150800.BAA19756@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. Josef -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.1 1999/03/19 09:51:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 1: 0:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D10154FC for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19806 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199907150800.BAA19806@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This is posted every 1st and 15th of the month. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/03/19 09:51:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 1: 0:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4FB15500 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19829 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199907150800.BAA19829@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on July 24th at the Oakland Convention Center. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is some on street parking but your best bet is lot parking. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Oakland convention center at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.5 1999/07/06 04:02:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 1: 1:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C042915524 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19846 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199907150800.BAA19846@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/03/19 09:51:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 1:26:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C43A154FC for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:26:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04713 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <378D9B3B.C9899CEC@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:26:35 -0700 From: Doug Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:03 AM 7/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > >Wes Peters writes: > > > > > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. > > > > Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- > > we call it fly fucking. :-) I laughed out loud in the middle of my office when I read this, and prayed that no one would ask me why. :) > FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. Normally I wouldn't get anywhere near a thread like this with a 3 meter pole, however I can no longer sit idly by and watch someone ruthlessly butcher the english language like this. I have counted at least 3 seperate definitions of the word "distribution" in your arguments on this thread, brett. Since you cannot even agree with yourself on the terms of your argument, it is impossible to discuss things rationally with you. Of course, anyone who's read more than two of your posts already knows that, however I'm hoping to save some of the new list members some time here. Also, for the benefit of our non-american readers, I feel the need to correct your attempt to deflect the truth even in the idiomatic description of your rhetoric. In point of fact what you are doing is referred to as, "Talking out of both sides of your ass." Q.E.D. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 2: 1:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E95E15228 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA01206; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:01:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA22360; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:15:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715111537.15024@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:15:37 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? References: <199907150210.TAA11380@usr07.primenet.com> <000001bece6b$bcf66740$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000001bece6b$bcf66740$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 07:42:53PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz writes: > > > You mean software RAID, right? SCSI cables don't care what they > > are connected to. Hmmm. I could do a SCSI commercial: > > Would that that were true. But unfortunately, a lot of hardware RAID > controllers do care what driver they are talking to. And NT tends to get > premium effort from the manufacturer. I think this same issue with > Linux-versus-NT had a lot to do with the recent benchmark disasters. Aren't you mixing up software raid vs. host RAID adapters vs. SCSI<-> SCSI raid adapters ? Software raid works with anything that talks SCSI, if the OS supports the controller they're attached to, period. RAID host adapters are another problem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 2: 7: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5991508C for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA01358; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:05:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA22376; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:19:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715111944.47234@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:19:44 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <000101bece5d$1a9b0540$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000101bece5d$1a9b0540$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 05:58:08PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz writes: > > > example, the NTP people dropped official support of Linux because of the > > frequency of changes to the kernel, as well as the difficulty in making it > > work on all flavours of Linux. They mentioned FreeBSD specifically as a > > more stable platform developer-wise. > > Amusing, considering that the latest versions of NTP run fine on Linux and > break on FreeBSD. Ever tried compiling GateD on linux ? *snicker* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 2:13:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E801614E09 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA14316; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:21:44 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: David Schwartz Cc: Tani Hosokawa , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000301bece7a$ededf700$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > In other words, you only block when you absolutely need the data in order to > continue processing that one job. > > > So, eventually you're going to have to do a read, and if you hang then, > > all jobs stall. > > No, the current job stalls. How does one job stalling affect the others? > Remember, you have a poll of threads (whose size is dynamically adjusted) > pulling jobs out of the pool. This would work a lot better if you just had 2xCPU non-threaded processes (maybe more) right now you are re-wrapping the threading code's non-blocking code with your own non-blocking i/o code, this is not a good idea. If you are using FreeBSD, you may want to look at a stripped down version of the kernel threads package afaik the URL is: http://lt.tar.com/ even so, you are doubling the work needed to be done for non-blocking operations. If you have a lot of shared data to manipulate, you may want to steal the freebsd native threads mutex functions as they can do atomic memory ops for achiving sync. -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|bright@wintelcom.net] systems administrator and programmer Win Telecom - http://www.wintelcom.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 2:15:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4474315228 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA16262; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:24:17 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Phil Regnauld Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <19990714204622.17443@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > David Schwartz writes: > > > > > > Doesn't beat other LFSes. And what is it good at ? > > > Integrity ? Fragmentation (hah!) > > > Performance ? > > > > Agreed. The question was not "what does NT do better than every UNIX". It > > was "what does NT do better than any UNIX". One other nice thing about NTFS > > And again, XFS exists for UNIX, Softupdates will soon allow no-fsck operation... > > > (although certainly not unique) is that you can defragement it while it's > > operating. > > FFS is even better: it doesn't fragment. er, you're not giving it enough credit: sysctl -a | grep alloc the "dorealloc" thing is the flag that turns on ffs's on the fly defragmentation. FFS hardly fragments, but when it does, it cleans up after itself without expensive third party software... -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|bright@wintelcom.net] systems administrator and programmer Win Telecom - http://www.wintelcom.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 2:19:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA36B14E09 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA27722; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:27:17 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Doug@gorean.org, scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000001bece6b$bcf66740$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > Large RAID arrays. > > > > You mean software RAID, right? SCSI cables don't care what they > > are connected to. Hmmm. I could do a SCSI commercial: > > Would that that were true. But unfortunately, a lot of hardware RAID > controllers do care what driver they are talking to. And NT tends to get > premium effort from the manufacturer. I think this same issue with > Linux-versus-NT had a lot to do with the recent benchmark disasters. > > > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > > > > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". > > Sadly, there are some problems that are very hard to solve any other way. > Especially when licensing requirements get in the way. > > I'll give you a contrived example, since I'm not at liberty to go into > details on the specifics of real examples. Suppose I might potentially have > to do 3,000 'gethostbyname's at the same time in a commercial product. On > NT, I can create 3,000 threads and call 'gethostbyname' in every one. Not > pretty, but it works. > > On FreeBSD, I'm basically screwed. I'd have to write me own resolver > library to do the job. Licensing problems prevent me from using pretty much > every nice resolver library out there. You seem to be quite knowledgeable, a BSD'd re-entrant gethostbyname would proabably be welcome in the repository. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 3: 7: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from student-mailhub.dcu.ie (ns.dcu.ie [136.206.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D1D15520 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pooka@redbrick.dcu.ie) Received: from mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (postfix@Mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE [136.206.15.2]) by student-mailhub.dcu.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3/893-FD) with ESMTP id LAA29704 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:06:56 +0100 (BST) Received: by mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (Postfix, from userid 2033) id 3268943825; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:08:37 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:08:36 +0100 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SQL Primers? Message-ID: <19990715110836.A21122@mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE> References: <378D6850.FD080D21@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <378D6850.FD080D21@airnet.net>; from Kris Kirby on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:49:20PM -0500 Organization: My Own Private Hideyhole, Inc. From: pooka@redbrick.dcu.ie (Tiny Non Cats) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 11:49:20PM -0500 Kris Kirby said: > Anyone know of any good SQL primers? Or good books? > There's a good book published by SAMS. I don't have it here, but it's the one I picked up what I know about SQL from. I think it's called "Teach yourself SQL in 24 days" or some such title - I promise it's not as bad as it sounds. ;o) Cian -- What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? Will you, like Peter, boldly say: "Who?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 4:26:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out.visi.com (tele.visi.com [209.98.98.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FB814FA2 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mestery@visi.com) Received: from isis.visi.com (isis.visi.com [209.98.98.8]) by mail-out.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3921F823; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:25:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by isis.visi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA27843; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:25:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: isis.visi.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:25:49 -0500 (CDT) From: To: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk Cc: rdawes@ucsd.edu, wes@softweyr.com, jabley@patho.gen.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 32-bit sparc port In-Reply-To: <199907150936.EAA02212@mail.visi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Robert Swindells wrote: > This is the StrongArm system that I bought. It was cheaper than a > Netwinder and can use better graphics cards etc. since it is just > a motherboard. Plus it runs *BSD not Linux. > Yes, it is pretty nice. I had looked at getting one of these over a year ago to prototype some stuff. The StrongARM is a nice chip, but has one drawback. It's cache design is not optimal for multi-tasking Unix systems. It's virtually indexed, so everytime you context switch you have to flush the entire data cache (16K). And this is a terribly slow process, as the way to flush the cache is to read 16K from a cache flush region. With lmbench and a 200MHz SA-110 running Linux, I'm seeing context switch times of approx. 400 microseconds. Ick. Despite all this, the system is stable and runs pretty well. It's currently running a webserver. > I suppose this is getting a bit off-topic for freebsd-sparc. > Agreed. Redirecting to chat.:) -- Kyle Mestery | StorageTek's Storage Networking Group mestery@visi.com | http://www.freebsd.org/ mestery@netwinder.org | http://www.netwinder.org/ Protect your right to privacy: www.freecrypto.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 5:26:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4731D14D9A for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6946C41CA; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E3359B3F; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:26:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907140135.SAA22506@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: :> In general, an operating system should be used for what it does best. If :> FreeBSD doesn't run INN very well, use Solaris or Linux. And don't upgrade :> production servers without making sure the new operating system version can :> handle the job well. :> :> At WebMaster, we have NT servers, Linux servers, FreeBSD servers, Sparc :> servers, and an Irix server. We use each machine for what it does best. : :I'd be interested in a list of things that FreeBSD doesn't do as :well as the other servers. NT: Crashes better. Linux: Incites Brett to riot better. SunOS/Solaris: Are pains in the ass better. Irix: Is wierder (but no one beats SGI at MP). Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 5:34: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA7315569 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 234BC41D3; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 099D69B3F; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:34:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Schwartz Cc: Doug , Terry Lambert , scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000001bece24$65a5c5e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: : :> I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a :> webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of :> anything NT does better than any unix though. :) : : Large RAID arrays. 4-way SMP. Applications requiring large numbers of :threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX that comes :close to NT's completion ports for efficient network I/O. Irix can do all that, and use different familys and speeds in the same box. Want to mix 200mhz R10k's and 250mhz R12k's in your Origin2k? Go for it. We have a half a terrabyte RAID onsite at NASA LaRC, hanging off an Irix box. That machine has more processors than NT can handle. Oh, and it doesn't go down. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 6: 3:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D27114E13; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:03:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id JAA09107; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma008366; Thu, 15 Jul 99 09:01:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:01:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In which case we can assume that this new router based on a Linux kernel is yet another distribution? SB On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the kernel and > even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to distinguish > a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different setup > program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different default > configuration. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 6: 9:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from november.jaded.net (november.jaded.net [216.94.113.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B1414E13 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@november.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by november.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3+trinsec_nospam) id JAA58722; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:19:04 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: Tiny Non Cats Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SQL Primers? Message-ID: <19990715091904.A58620@trinsec.com> References: <378D6850.FD080D21@airnet.net> <19990715110836.A21122@mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990715110836.A21122@mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE>; from Tiny Non Cats on Thu, Jul 15, 1999 at 11:08:36AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > Anyone know of any good SQL primers? Or good books? | > | There's a good book published by SAMS. I don't have it here, but it's the one | I picked up what I know about SQL from. I think it's called "Teach yourself SQL | in 24 days" or some such title - I promise it's not as bad as it sounds. ;o) | | Cian www.devshed.com has a rather basic but well equiped MySQL primer. -Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 7: 5:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ayukawa.aus.org (ayukawa.aus.org [199.166.246.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD851556E for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lh@aus.org) Received: from PHOENIX.ZER0.NET (lh@PHOENIX.ZER0.NET [199.166.246.189]) by ayukawa.aus.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18075 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907151402.KAA18075@ayukawa.aus.org> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-10 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: lh@aus.org From: Luke To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -------------Original message follows---------------------- This only lends credence to the fact that one OS can't do it all. If other OS decide to put more effort into threads (or, if FreeBSD remains below par comparitively), then in the future when Apache is threaded in the public releases, then those other OS will be a better platform for webserving under Apache. This will still leave FreeBSD as the undisputed champion of, for example, FTP serving. And QNX for embedded systems. Etc. ___________________________________________________________ I don't know the technical aspects of threads or most of this discussion, but as someone who tries to use FreeBSD wherever possible, It would be disappointing if I had to start recommending another OS because apache runs better on it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 9:28:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02521559D; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id JAA03116; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA13763; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:27:01 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA22329; Thu, 15 Jul 99 09:26:45 PDT Message-Id: <378E0BC3.2A9B0361@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:26:43 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Cc: Brett Glass , David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seth wrote: > > In which case we can assume that this new router based on a Linux kernel > is yet another distribution? Maybe, maybe not. It's entirely possible they're using one of the "standard" distributions. I know of one rather large embedded system vendor who has just inked a deal with a Linux distributor for their embedded products, but can't say anything until the public announcement is made. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 9:42:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FC2155B3; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08241; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:41:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990715104104.043a5a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:41:53 -0600 To: Seth From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You might call it that, yes. Though it wasn't really intended to be a distribution of software without hardware. --Brett At 09:01 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Seth wrote: >In which case we can assume that this new router based on a Linux kernel >is yet another distribution? > >SB > >On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the > kernel and > > even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to > distinguish > > a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different > setup > > program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different > default > > configuration. > > > > --Brett > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 10: 8: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6242E14BE3; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from terry@whistle.com) Received: from whistle.com (tlambert.whistle.com [207.76.205.208]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA81731; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E1448.B7C0E7B6@whistle.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:03:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Tani Hosokawa , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <378D7B21.51FCE5D3@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > > Tani Hosokawa wrote: > > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. > > > > Go read the web page that was given in the > > > > e-mail... I quote: > > > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. > > > I asked for specifics and I meant specifics. URLs > > > demonstrating an *active use* of Bitkeeper please - I > > > know it's intended to offer a web based browsing > > > interface, so where are they? :) > > > > "Because we haven't written up a license yet, this is a > > closed beta" > > > > So, it's not in active use right now for Linux, but it > > will be shortly. > > So you've just confirmed that no such specific documentation > exists, or can exist, because Linux has not yet officially > transitioned to BitKeeper. This also points out it will be > some time before the scalability and usability of BitKeeper, > or the willingness of the Linux leaders to submit to the > discipline of such a tool can be proven. > > Gee, Terry, this seems eerily familiar. Who else do we know > that ran through every existing source code control system > on the planet but refused to submit to any of them himself? Not me. I was one of the people who instituted CVS at Novell. I'd be interested to know who you think you are talking about, though. 8-). I think you guys are reading the wrong URL's. Instead of reading the out of date: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html I suggest you read: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk12.html http://www.bitkeeper.com/free.html http://lwn.net/1999/features/BitKeeper.phtml ...and of course, going back to: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html and reading the last sentence of paragraph 1: Mail sales@bitmover.com if you want to take part in the Beta program. -- Terry Lambert -- Whistle Communications, Inc. -- terry@whistle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- This is formal notice under California Assembly Bill 1629, enacted 9/26/98 that any UCE sent to my email address will be billed $50 per incident to the legally allowed maximum of $25,000. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:10:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E3214EDB for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:10:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19893; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:09:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd019871; Thu Jul 15 11:09:45 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27002; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:09:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151809.LAA27002@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:09:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Jul 14, 99 07:03:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Yeah, SGI is getting good at SMP. Buying Cray will do that for > > a company. > > > > The NFS stuff is demoralizing. Someone should contact the > > Unioversity of Guelph. > > Just out of curiousity, are either of those statements any reason to > choose FreeBSD over SGI or any UNIX with a better NFS implementation? I > think the point here, is that FreeBSD isn't always the best choice. No, neither are, and your statement is correct (for now). The thrust of my question was to determine what the issues were so that they could be addressed, or at least consciously rather than unconsciously _not_ addressed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:19: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5215D151AD for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:18:25 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Phil Regnauld" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:18:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000701beceee$6dbffeb0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990715111537.15024@ns.int.ftf.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > David Schwartz writes: > > > > > You mean software RAID, right? SCSI cables don't care what they > > > are connected to. Hmmm. I could do a SCSI commercial: > > > > Would that that were true. But unfortunately, a lot of hardware RAID > > controllers do care what driver they are talking to. And NT tends to get > > premium effort from the manufacturer. I think this same issue with > > Linux-versus-NT had a lot to do with the recent benchmark disasters. > > Aren't you mixing up software raid vs. host RAID adapters > vs. SCSI<-> > SCSI raid adapters ? Me? I don't think I am. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:35:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B3114D61 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03792; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:49:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd003702; Thu Jul 15 11:49:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28562; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:34:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151834.LAA28562@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:34:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Jul 14, 99 07:37:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Applications requiring large numbers of threads. > > Balk. "Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist...". > > BTW, what would you consider to be a large number of threads? 64? 128? > More? How about a threaded webserver? Apache *is* going to be threaded, > you know... There is no "require" about it. Threads are a tool, and equivalent (and lower overhead) tools exist. The idea that threads are necessary at all is a psychological crutch. It has more to do with the inability of programmers to maintain state in a per connection structure, rather than on a stack. It's a programmer problem, in other words, based in procedural (rather than data flow) based ways of thinking. That said, it's useful to be able to have a junior level person who doesn't understand finite state automata be able to produce code for the non-performance-critical parts of your project. At least they can contribute something, and they're cheaper than a senior level person who has a better engineering toolbox at their disposal (e.g. is more educated in the ways of code). Programs that require threads, particularly programs which require kernel threads, are, IMO, broken throw-away code. Topologically (I'm going to get beat on by another topologist for using physics instead of mathematics semantics for this one; please forgive me in advance, wherever you are... 8-)), there is no difference in kernel threads vs. user space call conversion threads vs. async I/O vs. finite state automata implemetnations of an algorithm, with the exception of SMP scalability -- and said scalability can be addressed very easily without resorting to kernel threads in all but the automata case. Given an OS that requires protection domain crossing (e.g. FreeBSD) in order to implement system services, kernel threading actually leads to significantly higher context switch overhead, unless one resorts to heroic (and arcane) avoidance mechanisms (I've discussed this before in this forum, probably ad-to-some-people's-nauseum 8-)). Threads are merely a convenience for linear thinkers, and kernel threads (in the presence of protection domain crossing requirements) are merely a convenience for junior implementors of operating systems. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:37:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B193215584 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:23 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jamie Bowden" Cc: "Doug" , "Terry Lambert" , , , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:23 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01becef1$14003270$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > : > :> I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > :> webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I > can't think of > :> anything NT does better than any unix though. :) > : > : Large RAID arrays. 4-way SMP. Applications requiring large > numbers of > :threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX > that comes > :close to NT's completion ports for efficient network I/O. > > Irix can do all that, and use different familys and speeds in the same > box. Want to mix 200mhz R10k's and 250mhz R12k's in your Origin2k? Go > for it. We have a half a terrabyte RAID onsite at NASA LaRC, hanging off > an Irix box. That machine has more processors than NT can handle. Oh, > and it doesn't go down. Again, the question was "what does NT do better than _any_ UNIX", not "what does NT do better than _every_ UNIX". The only thing I know of that NT does better than _every_ UNIX is its I/O completion port mechanism. And those of you who are going to complain about things like where its buffers get handed off between user and kernel space simply don't understand that I/O completion ports are not about I/O, they're about thread management. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:37:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0C2154A7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Alfred Perlstein" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , , , , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000801becef1$125568a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On FreeBSD, I'm basically screwed. I'd have to write me own resolver > > library to do the job. Licensing problems prevent me from using > pretty much > > every nice resolver library out there. > > You seem to be quite knowledgeable, a BSD'd re-entrant gethostbyname > would proabably be welcome in the repository. > > -Alfred Well, you're giving too much credibility to my example. My point was not that this specific problem needs to be solved. My point was more that there are legitimate cases where you need lots of 'real' threads. You might solve some of them, but there will always be more. I'm responding to the claim made that no such cases exist. I honestly can't imagine how anyone could make that claim except out of lack of experience with large real-world applications. The question really started as "why would anyone ever not want to use FreeBSD?". I think the slant has, fortunately, been more like "if there's something really broken/missing we need to know" rather than "FreeBSD is so great, how could anyone ever choose another OS". Which is good. And I think one of the answers is that sometimes you really do need kernel threads, unless you want to do an incredible amount of work to avoid them. Now, you can take my example and say, "let's do all the work to avoid it", but another one will pop up. Btw, FWIW, Linux doesn't handle 400 kernel threads all calling 'gethostbyname' well either. The case is the same with 'gethostbyname_r'. Solaris doesn't either. NT has no problem. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:37:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61AB1558A for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:26 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:37:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01becef1$15aad530$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907151402.KAA18075@ayukawa.aus.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't know the technical aspects of threads or most of this > discussion, but > as someone who tries to use FreeBSD wherever possible, It would be > disappointing if I had to start recommending another OS because > apache runs > better on it. If Apache went to a model as bad as 'one thread per request', you'd do better to advise switching to another web server instead. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:42:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876E1154A7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:42:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:41:51 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:41:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01becef1$b3d4cae0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907151834.LAA28562@usr07.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There is no "require" about it. Threads are a tool, and equivalent > (and lower overhead) tools exist. > > The idea that threads are necessary at all is a psychological > crutch. It has more to do with the inability of programmers > to maintain state in a per connection structure, rather than > on a stack. It's a programmer problem, in other words, based > in procedural (rather than data flow) based ways of thinking. Okay, then, explain to me how you do 3,000 concurrent 'gethostbyname' calls without writing your own resolver. Explain to me how you make a webserver that doesn't block if a disk write gets delayed without using one process per request. I will admit that there are always ways to avoid threads. Sure. There was no task that was impossible before they existed. But paradigm bigotry is as silly as operating system bigotry. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:43:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B450154A7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06258; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:42:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006211; Thu Jul 15 11:42:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29095; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:42:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151842.LAA29095@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:42:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, Doug@gorean.org, scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001bece6b$bcf66740$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 14, 99 07:42:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'll give you a contrived example, since I'm not at liberty to go into > details on the specifics of real examples. Suppose I might potentially have > to do 3,000 'gethostbyname's at the same time in a commercial product. On > NT, I can create 3,000 threads and call 'gethostbyname' in every one. Not > pretty, but it works. > > On FreeBSD, I'm basically screwed. I'd have to write me own resolver > library to do the job. Licensing problems prevent me from using pretty much > every nice resolver library out there. The bind 8.x stuff doesn't have licensing issues; it allows multiple concurrent operations. It is merely that the 4.x resolved is wedged into libc that causes your problem. > > Completion ports are no more, and no less, than VMS AST's. Just > > like aio* in FreeBSD, and much of the POSIX crap that's passing > > for standards these days. > > > > They may make it easier to code, by calling your callbacks, but > > the idea that network buffers should be in user space instead of > > on the kernel side of the protection domain barrier is just > > plain nuts. > > They're on both sides in every implementation. It's just a matter of when > the borders get crossed. I disagree. I can turn around reads and writes in the kernel without taking the copy overhead. NFS does this, and a KLD that could do this for SAMBA and AFS, while not trivial, given the state of the FreeBSD VFS interface, the protocol stack incursions for routing of the specific packets, and the mbuf reference to buffer cache objects that would be required, is well within the realm of possibility. If anything, the ability to use the GPL'ed SAMBA code in the Linux kernel may well be the deciding factor for eventual FreeBSD vs. Linux SMB performance, the same as it was for Linux vs. FreeBSD NFS performance. > > The anti-NT sentiment wasn't mine. On equivalent hardware, it > > handily beats FreeBSD's SMB server performance (one of the major > > impetus' for the work Kirk is now doing). I've address some of > > that in another posting, from my experience optimizing a similar > > hosted server for NetWare on Solaris, UnixWare, Dell UNIX, VMS, > > and AIX. The problems are correctable, but require work to be > > done, and code to be committed. > > And that's good, because this kind of comparison is what spurs > development. Embarassing benchmark results have done a lot for > Linux's development lately. :) It seems that FreeBSD doesn't mind running around with its pants off with NT in the room, unless Linux is in the room. 8-). Let us hope that beating Linux is seen as a more worthy goal than beating NT apparently is... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:55:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A349F14E21 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:55:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10908; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd010858; Thu Jul 15 11:53:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29897; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:53:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151853.LAA29897@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:53:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Jul 14, 99 07:51:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org tani hosokawa wrote: > > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? The question that begs to be answered here is "On what platform?". If the answer is Solaris, then it's running a hybridized kernel/user space cooperative scheduler. The difference between this and an async call gate based call conversion scheduler is the need to signal for lazy kernel thread creation as a result of N outstanding blocking calls for N+1 currently existing threads (+1 is the scheduler/new thread creator). Such a scheduler is (potentially) much less efficient than one that doesn't require for protection domain crossings for the lazy binding, and fully utilizes its quantum, instead of spending it doing unnecessary kernel scheduler work and kernel thread thrashing in the case of an M:N . user space thread vs. kernel thread backing model (M > N), but it's *vastly* better than what Linux or FreeBSD have today (at least in terms of SMP scalability for the FreeBSD user space threads implementation). For non-SMP systems (the benchmarks in question used 4 processor Xeon boxes, so this is rather non-applicable to benching IIS on NT against Apache on FreeBSD), the FreeBSD user space call conversion scheduler has the potential to beat the hybridized model by a significant margin, assuming the register window and signal crap is de-POSIX'ed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:55:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E7F155E6 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:54:35 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: <001101becef3$7b5056b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907151842.LAA29095@usr07.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On FreeBSD, I'm basically screwed. I'd have to write me own resolver > > library to do the job. Licensing problems prevent me from using > pretty much > > every nice resolver library out there. > > The bind 8.x stuff doesn't have licensing issues; it allows multiple > concurrent operations. It is merely that the 4.x resolved is wedged > into libc that causes your problem. The bind license has 'forced speech' requirement. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. > > > Completion ports are no more, and no less, than VMS AST's. Just > > > like aio* in FreeBSD, and much of the POSIX crap that's passing > > > for standards these days. Completion ports are not about asynchronous I/O. They're not about having your I/O routines called automatically. They're about having the optimimum number of threads running. What completion ports do is allow a group of threads to be associated such that if one thread blocks, another one is automatically freed. This way, on an N processor machine, you can nearly always have N active threads. This is extremely difficult to do well on pretty much every UNIX. > > > They may make it easier to code, by calling your callbacks, but > > > the idea that network buffers should be in user space instead of > > > on the kernel side of the protection domain barrier is just > > > plain nuts. I'm not really sure why you feel that way. If there weren't performance issues, I don't see why you wouldn't want the whole network stack to be in user space. > > They're on both sides in every implementation. It's just a > matter of when > > the borders get crossed. > > I disagree. I can turn around reads and writes in the kernel without > taking the copy overhead. NFS does this, and a KLD that could do this > for SAMBA and AFS, while not trivial, given the state of the FreeBSD > VFS interface, the protocol stack incursions for routing of the > specific packets, and the mbuf reference to buffer cache objects that > would be required, is well within the realm of possibility. If > anything, the ability to use the GPL'ed SAMBA code in the Linux > kernel may well be the deciding factor for eventual FreeBSD vs. > Linux SMB performance, the same as it was for Linux vs. FreeBSD NFS > performance. That is true. But it's really not relevant to the current discussion. But I still think it's better to pull everything into user space to avoid copies rather than push everything into kernel space. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 11:57:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066BD155C7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10352; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:57:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: lh@aus.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000b01becef1$15aad530$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > I don't know the technical aspects of threads or most of this > > discussion, but > > as someone who tries to use FreeBSD wherever possible, It would be > > disappointing if I had to start recommending another OS because > > apache runs > > better on it. > If Apache went to a model as bad as 'one thread per request', you'd do > better to advise switching to another web server instead. "went to"? Right now it's a one *process* per request. Have you ever run Apache? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12: 3: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7942E1569D for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:02:30 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:02:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000101becef4$966499b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > If Apache went to a model as bad as 'one thread per > request', you'd do > > better to advise switching to another web server instead. > > "went to"? Right now it's a one *process* per request. Have you ever run > Apache? Sure. I run it on many machines, including several that are very heavily loaded. It's one-process-per-request model is atrocious. If they're going to go to the trouble to fix it, they should actually fix it. Going to one-thread-per-request is just silly. If you're going to make a threaded program, you should do it right. A half-assed threaded program may even be worse than a well-designed one-process-per-request program. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:10:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F97155C7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:10:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10519; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:10:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:10:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Terry Lambert Cc: davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907151853.LAA29897@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about > > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? > > The question that begs to be answered here is "On what platform?". > > If the answer is Solaris, then it's running a hybridized kernel/user > space cooperative scheduler. The difference between this and an > async call gate based call conversion scheduler is the need to > signal for lazy kernel thread creation as a result of N outstanding > blocking calls for N+1 currently existing threads (+1 is the > scheduler/new thread creator). > > Such a scheduler is (potentially) much less efficient than one that > doesn't require for protection domain crossings for the lazy binding, > and fully utilizes its quantum, instead of spending it doing > unnecessary kernel scheduler work and kernel thread thrashing in > the case of an M:N . user space thread vs. kernel thread backing > model (M > N), but it's *vastly* better than what Linux or FreeBSD > have today (at least in terms of SMP scalability for the FreeBSD > user space threads implementation). > > For non-SMP systems (the benchmarks in question used 4 processor Xeon > boxes, so this is rather non-applicable to benching IIS on NT against > Apache on FreeBSD), the FreeBSD user space call conversion scheduler > has the potential to beat the hybridized model by a significant > margin, assuming the register window and signal crap is de-POSIX'ed. Thank you for spewing some geek-speak into an unrelated discussion. I welcome you to bring forth a new webserver that can duplicate everything that Apache can do with the same developer support that Apache has using a different model. Hey, maybe if can be done. Certainly, if what you say is true (I don't dispute the technical merits, since I don't know enough about them) a webserver can be built like that. However, the question that begs to be answered here is "Will you do it?" And the answer, in all likelihood, is "no". So, what we get back to is, what's one thing that's wrong with FreeBSD? Threads. Does it matter whether some other model has "the potential" to beat Apache in performance? No. People aren't going to switch to this new webserver at the drop of a hat, because Apache's a really nice, flexible webserver, that we've already torture-tested for years, and we're already familiar with it. You want to simply ignore the fact that a webserver with over 50% of the world's market share happens to require threads just because in your opinion the developers of said webserver have their heads up their ass as far as programming is concerned? That's naive. Especially when you're talking about development on what's supposedly a "server OS". The question that people are asking when they consider platforms is not "if we were going to write our own software product, what OS would we choose, if we were to adopt the most efficient paradigm?", it's "what OS will give us the best performance if we're going to use X established existing software product?" --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:14:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D43F155C7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10541; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:13:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:13:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: lh@aus.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000101becef4$966499b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > If Apache went to a model as bad as 'one thread per > > request', you'd do > > > better to advise switching to another web server instead. > > > > "went to"? Right now it's a one *process* per request. Have you ever run > > Apache? > > Sure. I run it on many machines, including several that are very heavily > loaded. > > It's one-process-per-request model is atrocious. If they're going to go to > the trouble to fix it, they should actually fix it. Going to > one-thread-per-request is just silly. > > If you're going to make a threaded program, you should do it right. A > half-assed threaded program may even be worse than a well-designed > one-process-per-request program. Again, off in theory. Fact is, the threaded server is faster than the per-process model. And, it's not just going to go away. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:15:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAC4155D8 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:15:32 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Schwartz" , "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:15:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000001becef6$6853c670$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <000101becef4$966499b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's one-process-per-request model is atrocious. Let me retract this statement, because it's not really fair. Apache has done an amazing job of getting very good performance on a wide variety of platforms. The one-process-per-request model does create problems, but they're usually in special cases, like when you're using lots of perl CGIs and mod_perl. But if you're going to change it, and lose that, you should change it in favor of a clearly better model. And I'm not sure one-thread-per-request is clearly better. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:21:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3DC150B9 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:21:04 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:21:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000201becef7$2e790680$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > If you're going to make a threaded program, you should do > it right. A > > half-assed threaded program may even be worse than a well-designed > > one-process-per-request program. > Again, off in theory. Fact is, the threaded server is faster than the > per-process model. And, it's not just going to go away. Really? If that's true (at least on some set of platforms) then take a small step forward. At least it will decrease Apache's memory consumption. I'm surprised it's actually faster. I honestly can't think of any reason it would be. You avoid the overhead of having to fork, but Apache pre-forks and reuses its children so this should be negligible. The kernel has fewer processes to schedule, but the overhead of having that same number of threads to schedule should be roughly equivalent. Perhaps it's because some of the context switches that were previously between processes are now between threads of the same process. But that shouldn't be a major difference anyway. And I would think that would be swamped by thread contention for things like memory allocation. It will probably make Apache run worse on FreeBSD though. If it pushes FreeBSD to a better threads implementation, I'm all for it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:36: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12237155AA for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10763; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:35:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:35:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: David Schwartz Cc: lh@aus.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000001becef6$6853c670$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > It's one-process-per-request model is atrocious. > > Let me retract this statement, because it's not really fair. > > Apache has done an amazing job of getting very good performance on a wide > variety of platforms. The one-process-per-request model does create > problems, but they're usually in special cases, like when you're using lots > of perl CGIs and mod_perl. If you're just talking about the big fat memory footprints, you can do what the performance tuning guide suggests and put a proxy (like Squid) in front of it. I'm using mod_perl to serve a similar amount of requests I'd be able to do with static data. You've also brought up another good point -- portability between platforms can be increased by using a good threading model. Like, with the apr project. And it's easier to code for. Time to market is a major factor in a lot of decisions, and if it's going to be harder to code for X platform because it doesn't support the easiest model well, then it might be better to go with Y platform that has some disadvantages comparitively, but kicks ass on the issue that's being addressed. > But if you're going to change it, and lose that, you should change it in > favor of a clearly better model. And I'm not sure one-thread-per-request is > clearly better. Per-thread is clearly better, for a number of reasons. o shared address space being one of them o better caching of the filesystem o context switches between threads are generally less expensive than context switches between processes o easy upgrade path from per-process to per-thread for user modules --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:37: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B2514FED for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06382; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:36:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd006355; Thu Jul 15 12:36:52 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02676; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:36:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151936.MAA02676@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:36:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Jul 14, 99 08:07:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org tani hosokawa wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > > > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > > > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about > > > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > > > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? > > Yes. And it's bad design. > > I'm curious. How would you do it? I can't speak for David, but the process architecture I did for the NetWare for UNIX product used multiple processes (not threads) with a singled shared memory region for client context records, and a shared file descriptor table. This was chosen over threads for the standard context switch thrashing reasons, the lack of threads support on one of our reference platforms, the inability to autogrow the threads stack (even though Steve Baumel put the capability into the SVR4.2 VM system, it was not utilized by the threads people), and, finally, the ability to do "hot engine scheduling". This last used a streams mux to arbitrate, in LIFO order, incoming packets to the "hottest" work-to-do-engine, on the theory that it would be most likely, of all engines, to have its pages in core (remember that SVR4.2 did not have a unified VM and buffer cache, though this was equally applicable to data pages). Using a threads implemetnation would have resulted in each kernel thread engaging in paging operations, generally at the expense of other kernel threads data. Finally, by using a shared user space context, the process context switch overhead did not go up at all, assuming that you had dedicated this machine as a server: the same engine was run repeatedly, with the other engines only coming active when there was sufficient load to merit their participation based on I/O interleaving (this was a decision of the MUX, which also knew how to automatically ACK -- Novell calls this a "server busy" -- requests from a client with a request in progress). So... I personally would use an anonymous work-to-do engine model, shared memory, either via a single process the N:M kernel/user threads (M := N) or via multiple processes with shared contex for representing client state, and asynchronous I/O for I/O interleaving, probably using mmap'ed regions for static content to zero-copy the writes, with a lazy discard policy utilizing LRU. The benefit to the anonymous work-to-do engine is that you can use platform apropriate technology to implement your shared context region, be that a SYSV shared memory segment, and mmap'ed file, a vfork shared process context, or global memory in a threads based system. Sure, it's a little more thoughtful work to get right, but our code (compiled C) *did* outperform Native NetWare (hand coded assembly with non-preemptive coopertive multitasking: a true embedded system if ever there was one) on identical hardware. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:52:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1F01515B; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11734; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:50:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd011714; Thu Jul 15 12:50:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03679; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:49:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151949.MAA03679@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:49:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wes@softweyr.com, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <70188.932009916@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 14, 99 08:38:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a > > Who's "they", and please don't answer "The Linux community" or > anything else which is equivalently vague to the point of absurdity, > please be specific. Which group(s) are using it and what are the URLs > pointing to on-line proof of this in each case? Linux Torvalds. Paragraph 3: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk05.html Paragraph 2: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html > I ask these questions because your statement strongly implies that > this technology is in active use now by "them" and that contradicts > other statements I heard at USENIX, making the question of tangible > proof somewhat relevant in deciding which story is true. > > Also please note that I'm not asking "which people will be using > bitkeeper" or "which people are thinking of using bitkeeper", I'm > asking who the current, active poster-children users of this product > are. VA research, Intel, SGI (I assume this is Jeremy Allison), and Quantum. See paragraph 1: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 12:58:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65947155F1; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29035; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:56:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028962; Thu Jul 15 12:56:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03978; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:56:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151956.MAA03978@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <70258.932010608@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 14, 99 08:50:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > browsing interface, so where are they? :) I don't know if this is their report format or not: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bugdb/ I'm pretty sure the log is on a different machine, which you would know the name of if you sent email to them and signed on for a beta. I would, but I'm not the head of a free software project. ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 13: 5:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD79C155F1 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18638; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:05:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018594; Thu Jul 15 13:05:48 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04524; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:05:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907152005.NAA04524@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:05:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378D91FD.AB21D216@gorean.org> from "Doug" at Jul 15, 99 00:47:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'll argue the threads with you until I'm blue in the face, if > > you want. 8-). > > I don't want, because I'm not qualified to argue the point with you _or_ > DS. What I do know is that there are programs that use threads, and those > programs perform poorly on freebsd. Whether not supporting things that are > bad ideas (like threads might be) is the right tactical decision or not is > also beyond me, however you asked for a list, so there you have it. :) When > we spec'ed the servers I'm currently working on we never considered less > than 2 cpu's. This is a horse of a different wheelbase. FreeBSD doesn't have good general threads support at this time, though it (apparently) runs Linux threads better than Linux does, if you load that kernel module. This isn't an indication that kernel threads are good, just because the current implementation of the call conversion scheduler for the user space threads in FreeBSD isn't SMP scalable, since there's no technical reason it cant be. My fundamental point was that, with the possible exception of Solaris, no one does SMP scalable threads well, and even Solaris, by virtue of use of a kernel threading implementation with a hybridized scheduler, has its issues. And these issues are an attribute of thinking about problem solving using procedural logic, which is why people think of threads: it's a nice, comfortable paradigm that makes it so they don't have to think outside the box. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 13:25:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304DC14DDA for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17449; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:25:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017415; Thu Jul 15 13:25:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05487; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:25:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907152025.NAA05487@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:25:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000f01becef1$b3d4cae0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 15, 99 11:41:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > There is no "require" about it. Threads are a tool, and equivalent > > (and lower overhead) tools exist. > > > > The idea that threads are necessary at all is a psychological > > crutch. It has more to do with the inability of programmers > > to maintain state in a per connection structure, rather than > > on a stack. It's a programmer problem, in other words, based > > in procedural (rather than data flow) based ways of thinking. > > Okay, then, explain to me how you do 3,000 concurrent 'gethostbyname' calls > without writing your own resolver. By using the one that Paul Vixie wrote for 8.x. 8-). Or by downloading the Mozilla code, and implementing a DNS helper daemon via crib notes. > Explain to me how you make a webserver > that doesn't block if a disk write gets delayed without using one process > per request. aio_write, or on pre 4.1.3 SunOS, awrite. Alternately, the same way the "team" and "ddd" programs interleaved I/O. Or a daemon that does the I/O (we can call it "biod" 8-)). Or even by ensuring that sequential read-ahead in the buffer cache is triggered on an initial operation by overleading using "read(fd,buf, 0)". Or by using the little-used readv/writev calls, and queuing the I/O for completion to a daemon. Or using an async call gate. Or using processes with shared context. Or, if all other "configure" tests fail, implementing using kernel threads. > I will admit that there are always ways to avoid threads. Sure. There was > no task that was impossible before they existed. But paradigm bigotry is as > silly as operating system bigotry. I'm not bigoted against threads, per se, I am anti-overhead. This means context switch overhead, protection domain crossing overhead, stalling latency overhead (which isn't present in async I/O, but is in blocking read/write I/O), etc.. In general, overhead. You *could* implement threads which would be as light weight as possible (but still heavier weight than pure async I/O, but worth it for multiple CPU's in user space), but the only company that has come close to doing so is Sun. Unless you are writing your code specifically for Solaris 2.6 or higher, you would be best to avoid hard coding your assumptions about what concurrency facilities work best on each platform. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 13:55:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CC81561C for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08794; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:54:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd008751; Thu Jul 15 13:54:29 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06945; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:54:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907152054.NAA06945@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:54:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, Doug@gorean.org, scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <001101becef3$7b5056b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 15, 99 11:54:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The bind 8.x stuff doesn't have licensing issues; it allows multiple > > concurrent operations. It is merely that the 4.x resolved is wedged > > into libc that causes your problem. > > The bind license has 'forced speech' requirement. > > * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright > * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the > * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. So print it in the documentation. If it offends you that much, put it on a microdot, and replace the first period in the manual with the microdot. No "ugly" fine print... > > > > Completion ports are no more, and no less, than VMS AST's. Just > > > > like aio* in FreeBSD, and much of the POSIX crap that's passing > > > > for standards these days. > > Completion ports are not about asynchronous I/O. They're not about having > your I/O routines called automatically. They're about having the optimimum > number of threads running. > > What completion ports do is allow a group of threads to be associated such > that if one thread blocks, another one is automatically freed. This way, on > an N processor machine, you can nearly always have N active threads. This is > extremely difficult to do well on pretty much every UNIX. Solaris does it, even though I am not particularly fond of the overhead in their implementation. It is the right direction, but not far enough. > > > > They may make it easier to code, by calling your callbacks, but > > > > the idea that network buffers should be in user space instead of > > > > on the kernel side of the protection domain barrier is just > > > > plain nuts. > > I'm not really sure why you feel that way. If there weren't performance > issues, I don't see why you wouldn't want the whole network stack to be in > user space. Domain crossing is expensive. Both for buffer copies on the way out, and the callback trampoline on the way in. > > I disagree. I can turn around reads and writes in the kernel without > > taking the copy overhead. NFS does this, and a KLD that could do this > > for SAMBA and AFS, while not trivial, given the state of the FreeBSD > > VFS interface, the protocol stack incursions for routing of the > > specific packets, and the mbuf reference to buffer cache objects that > > would be required, is well within the realm of possibility. If > > anything, the ability to use the GPL'ed SAMBA code in the Linux > > kernel may well be the deciding factor for eventual FreeBSD vs. > > Linux SMB performance, the same as it was for Linux vs. FreeBSD NFS > > performance. > > That is true. But it's really not relevant to the current discussion. But I > still think it's better to pull everything into user space to avoid copies > rather than push everything into kernel space. You can have, at absolute best, one copy I/O: DMA from the disk controller into the ethernet card memory. Practically, this works out to two copy I/O: DMA from the disk controller into memory, and DMA from memory into the ethernet controller. This is because of numerous issues, including the locality of reference which makes RAM caching a good idea, and the fact that packet and page boundaries are not the same thing. To achive this, you must be able to mage a vm_object_t reference in an mbuf header, rather than copying to the mbuf data area from the buffer cache (VM) and passing that (e.g. a three copy I/O). When you pull data into user space, you require a protection domain crossing. If you send it anywhere, you require another. You can, at some expense, avoid this. Generally, this is done by mmap(2)'ing the file so that when the addresses of data in the file is passed to the kernel for a write(2)/send(2) call, there is merely an address translation before the kernel can access the (its own) data. The expense is in the mapping and unmapping, and may be ameliorated by doing lazy unmapping (again, for reasons of locality of reference). For an HTML server, it is likely that a "sendextentvectors" call would be most useful; this would operate by having an mmap'ed file into which HTML headers are written, and another mmap'ed file that contains the static body that does not represent HTTP server generated data. Both would be passed, with length argements, to avoid truncation overhead for variant header sizes. This approach would avoid all avoidable copies (since in FreeBSD the VM and buffer cache are unified, there is no need to deal with VM/buffer cache coherency issues, so long as the initial size of the VM backing for the header region were always sufficient). A kernel module could easily be written to add this system call to any modern UNIX derivative or clone, on a per system basis (I did a shared descriptor table implementation on AIX, SunOS, Solaris, and UnixWare for a product, so I have historical proof of concept). This particular call *might* be useful for SAMBA as well (but not as useful as turning the reads and writes around in the kernel). Kernel space implicitly avoids copies if you have to do I/O; that's what servers do, for the most part. If you are just diddling data in user space, then that's a different issue altogether. This is why microkernel OS's like CHORUS have abandoned the MACH protection domain barriers between single servers which need to do I/O and are trusted (the use of statistical memory protection can save the kernel from buggy servers, here). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 13:57: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1CD155FD; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10637; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990715145410.0439dc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:54:27 -0600 To: Alex Zepeda From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714190320.04556180@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's yet another. --Brett At 08:10 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: >With all this anal retentive nit picking not really serving an intelligent >purpose, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned PicoBSD. If anything was a >second distribution of FreeBSD; that would be it. > >- alex > >I thought felt your touch >In my car, on my clutch >But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. > - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 15:14:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1F615179 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:13:00 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:13:00 -0700 Message-ID: <000001becf0f$33465920$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907151936.MAA02676@usr07.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I can't speak for David, but the process architecture I did for > the NetWare for UNIX product used multiple processes (not threads) > with a singled shared memory region for client context records, > and a shared file descriptor table. That's an excellent model to use. The biggest problem is that your processes can get blocked on disk I/O, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Every model has its advantages and disadvantages. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 17: 6:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5AAE14CB7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14254; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:06:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd014223; Thu Jul 15 17:06:21 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15994; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:06:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907160006.RAA15994@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:06:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Jul 15, 99 12:10:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The current model is a hybrid thread/process model, with a number of > > > processes each with a large number of threads in each, each thread > > > processing one request. From what I've seen, 64 threads/process is about > > > right. So, in one Apache daemon, you can expect to see >1000 threads, > > > running inside 10-20 processes. Does that count as a large number? [ ... ] > Thank you for spewing some geek-speak into an unrelated discussion. I > welcome you to bring forth a new webserver that can duplicate everything > that Apache can do with the same developer support that Apache has using a > different model. You, yourself, indicated that the process architecture was in flux; if so, then it would be a good idea if it got away from threads dependencies before it solidifies to something that won't run at all on some platforms. > Hey, maybe if can be done. Certainly, if what you say is true (I don't > dispute the technical merits, since I don't know enough about them) a > webserver can be built like that. However, the question that begs to be > answered here is "Will you do it?" And the answer, in all likelihood, is > "no". I believe the Zeus server, which the Linux folks were complaining was not being tested by Mindcraft (instead of Apache) supports this model, since it requires the ability to do clustering, and migrating a thread across machines is computationally hard. > So, what we get back to is, what's one thing that's wrong with FreeBSD? > Threads. That's actually "what's wrong with applications?". The closest you can get to blaiming FreeBSD for this is "why can't FreeBSD run these applications that rely on threads in an SMP scalable way?". I could easily ask a similar question: "why can't FreeBSD run Microsoft Office 2000?". > Does it matter whether some other model has "the potential" to beat Apache > in performance? No. People aren't going to switch to this new webserver > at the drop of a hat, because Apache's a really nice, flexible webserver, > that we've already torture-tested for years, and we're already familiar > with it. It matters if the Apache process architecture is in flux, and can be affected in such a way as to not unneccessarily preclude having good performance on dozens of platforms for the benefit of having good performance on a single platform that happens to be the current benchmark target. > You want to simply ignore the fact that a webserver with over 50% of the > world's market share happens to require threads just because in your > opinion the developers of said webserver have their heads up their ass as > far as programming is concerned? I didn't say that. Far from it. I admire them greatly, first and foremost for the first trans-core-team free software project to arise. I admire their coding skills, and their understanding of their target problem. But requiring threads in a supposedly high performance application is going to result in your performance varying wildly between platforms. I believe it is something they will have to backpedal on, if not done abstractly. I fully believe, for example, that FreeBSD's user space threading can be brought to a point where it is (1) SMP scalable, without significant kernel work, and (2) lower overhead than even Solaris' hybridized cooperated scheduling. This would mean Apache, threaded, would run very well on FreeBSD, slightly less well on Solaris, less well than that on SVR4.2, slower still on NT, and yet slower on Linux. Given this, it would still be my assessment that depending on a single concurrency model for all target platforms, instead of abstracting the concurrency model to allow platform specific optimizations (_effective_ platform specific optimizations), yes, is "still a bad idea". > That's naive. Especially when you're talking about development > on what's supposedly a "server OS". Server != threads. > The question that people are asking when they consider platforms is not > "if we were going to write our own software product, what OS would we > choose, if we were to adopt the most efficient paradigm?", it's "what OS > will give us the best performance if we're going to use X established > existing software product?" The cross-platform engineering projects I have been involved in have been very conscious of isolating the platform dependencies from the code to allow for platform specific optimization. Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 17:49:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330F314F92 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:49:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:47:00 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:47:00 -0700 Message-ID: <000001becf24$b6b12eb0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907160006.RAA15994@usr07.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > So, what we get back to is, what's one thing that's wrong with FreeBSD? > > Threads. > > That's actually "what's wrong with applications?". The closest you > can get to blaiming FreeBSD for this is "why can't FreeBSD run > these applications that rely on threads in an SMP scalable way?". I > could easily ask a similar question: "why can't FreeBSD run Microsoft > Office 2000?". No, there is a legitimate question here that you are evading. Why does FreeBSD block a whole process if one thread blocks? There is no requirement that it do so. The standards suggest otherwise. FreeBSD's support of POSIX threads is deficient. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 21:57:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2A814F6A for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14612 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990715225134.04732610@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:55:44 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <378D9B3B.C9899CEC@gorean.org> References: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:26 AM 7/15/99 -0700, Doug wrote: > Normally I wouldn't get anywhere near a thread like this with a 3 meter >pole, however I can no longer sit idly by and watch someone ruthlessly >butcher the english language like this. I have counted at least 3 seperate >definitions of the word "distribution" in your arguments on this thread, >brett. Nonsense. Rather, I have mentioned three (actually, more than three) things which may cause a product to constitute a distinct distribution of an operating system. >Since you cannot even agree with yourself on the terms of your >argument, it is impossible to discuss things rationally with you. Since you seem incapable of following what I'm saying, but instead are resorting to irrational and nasty ad hominem arguments, I hope that you'll keep your word and not continue on this thread. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 21:57:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7A1155AD for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14609; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:55:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990715224829.04729c90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:49:49 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199907140135.SAA22506@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:26 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >NT: Crashes better. >Linux: Incites Brett to riot better. I haven't rioted yet. On the other hand, if I ever decide to, it will likely not be on account of Linux. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 15 23:45:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A536F156DF for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:45:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15259 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:45:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716004255.0478d100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:45:22 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Borland considering UNIX ports Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Borland seems to be considering ports of their development tools to UNIX-like OSes -- but, so far, only to Linux. However, their survey at http://www.borland.com/linux/ has many "other" blanks in which participants can mention a desire for BSD UNIX support. Want to see Borland Delphi, C++, etc. for Free/Open/NetBSD? Comment on the form mentioned above and maybe it'll happen. (We can only hope that Borland, having essentially destroyed itself by being a Windows-only company, now knows better.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 0:41: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1785E14E3E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id JAA07039; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:40:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA24844; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:55:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990716095508.01493@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:55:08 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? References: <199907140135.SAA22506@usr02.primenet.com> <4.2.0.58.19990715224829.04729c90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990715224829.04729c90@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Jul 15, 1999 at 10:49:49PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > >NT: Crashes better. > >Linux: Incites Brett to riot better. > > I haven't rioted yet. On the other hand, if I ever decide to, it will > likely not be on account of Linux. FreeBSD then ? -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 0:43:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36EE14E3E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:42:05 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 3WRWC5HB; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:42:52 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 1152dZ-000CeG-00; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:42:29 +0100 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:42:29 +0100 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Message-Id: <19990716084229.A48601@palmerharvey.co.uk> References: <199907160006.RAA15994@usr07.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907160006.RAA15994@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 12:06:19AM +0000 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 12:06:19AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. Evil configure program? I find gnu configure scripts to be a blessing, but I'm merely an administrator... Please explain what is so awful about them. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 0:46:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD6314E3E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16211; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:45:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:45:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <19990716084229.A48601@palmerharvey.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > On Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 12:06:19AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. > > Evil configure program? > > I find gnu configure scripts to be a blessing, but I'm merely an > administrator... > > Please explain what is so awful about them. Apache doesn't use autoconf (it's on the TODO for 2.0, I'm told). It uses a collection of shell scripts that are, to be quite honest, quite evil. They work well enough, I guess... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 2:36: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B49614BDE for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA27426; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:34:53 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:34:53 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: David Schwartz Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <000001bece29$22a82b20$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > FFS is even better: it doesn't fragment. > > Microsoft swore tat NTFS didn't fragement for a very long time. It wasn't > until someone else wrote a degramenter and demonstrated that it could result > in performance gains that Microsoft was ultimately forced to admit that NTFS > might fragment a little bit, every once in a while. > > DS > Fragment a little bit, once in a while???? Holy Cow!!! It fragments quite a bit, in no time at all, and the perfomance penalty is bad. Itjust depends on whatyou do. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 2:57:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3953914FCC for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA27696; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:55:48 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:55:48 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Jamie Bowden Cc: David Schwartz , Doug , Terry Lambert , scrappy@hub.org, beyssac@enst.fr, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > : > :> I can give you a list of things from my experience (not a > :> webmaster.com employee). Threads, SMP, NFS, and purify. I can't think of > :> anything NT does better than any unix though. :) > : > : Large RAID arrays. 4-way SMP. Applications requiring large numbers of > :threads. Log-based system. There's nothing I know of in any UNIX that comes > :close to NT's completion ports for efficient network I/O. > > Irix can do all that, and use different familys and speeds in the same > box. Want to mix 200mhz R10k's and 250mhz R12k's in your Origin2k? Go But I bet you must have same processors on one node 8-) > for it. We have a half a terrabyte RAID onsite at NASA LaRC, hanging off > an Irix box. That machine has more processors than NT can handle. Oh, > and it doesn't go down. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > > If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 4:29:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gate2.consol.de (gate2.consol.de [194.221.87.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFF514FFF; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:29:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Elbel@consol.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (at relayer gate2.consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (root@msgsrv.bb.consol.de [10.250.0.100]) by gate2.consol.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03885; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fourier.int.consol.de (fourier.int.consol.de [10.0.1.17]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08840; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:28:53 +0200 Received: (from me@localhost) by fourier.int.consol.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) id NAA43774; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:28:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from me) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:28:52 +0200 From: Michael Elbel To: ni@tellique.de Cc: chat@freebsd.org, garyj@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IA64 Message-ID: <19990716132849.A36231@consol.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >Michael Elbel wrote on freebsd-chat: >> Well, all I can say is that in a former life at a former company we >> were indeed building workstations with i860 processors and only >> those. Intel *themselves* supplied a SYSVR4 port to the i860 that we >> used as the base of our own version. > I hope I am not giving you away when I mention that this must have been > the Cadmus Firebox, the only general-purpose machine based on the i860 I > have ever heard about. Nah. I remember the time at PCS quite fondly. Even Jordan Hubbard used to work there for a couple of years. Even without the its name not working quite so well in English, the Firebox was pretty doomed from pretty early on due to Intel not supporting the i860 in a way that would help to establish it better. They were very slow fixing stuff with the processor itself and at the time the first machine was sellable (with somewhat stable processor steppings and the necessary workarounds for the rest of the bugs we knew of) HP had their snakes out with comparable FP performance and better processor support for general purpose tasks. PCS never managed to sell any substantial number of boxes. > At that time, I had a bet running with a >friend of mine -- he said that > at latest at the end of the second year >after that one ('92 sounds > right, so we targeted end of '94) there >would be cheap i860 workstations > at less than DEM 30000(*). The >Firebox sold for more than twice as much. >(*) something between USD 15000 and 20000 at the time >He not only lost the bet, but could not name a *single* other i860 >workstation. That made for a fine carton of champagne, which we emptied >together (and with some friends). Yeah I remember that there was somebody like Convex (was it Convex, Gary) who were interested in OEMing the Fireboxes as workstation type boxes together with their own multiprocessor i860 machines. >> I believe that Gary Jennejohn still uses one of the beasts as an X >> terminal. >Cool. Does anybody have one for sale? :-) Good question. Myself, I never owned one. Gary might know. Michael -- \|/ -O- Michael Elbel, ConSol* GmbH, - me@consol.de - 089 / 45841-256 /|\ Fermentation fault (coors dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 5:51:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEFF14F0D for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 064AB4160; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E72349B3D; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:49:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990715224829.04729c90@localhost> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: :At 08:26 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: : : >NT: Crashes better. : >Linux: Incites Brett to riot better. : :I haven't rioted yet. On the other hand, if I ever decide to, it will :likely not be on account of Linux. I was kidding more than anything Brett. It was a cheap shot, but chat's gotten way too serious lately. Needed a levity break. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 5:53:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B390F156D0 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:53:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F264A4160; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3F939B3D; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Narvi Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Narvi wrote: : :On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: :> Irix can do all that, and use different familys and speeds in the same :> box. Want to mix 200mhz R10k's and 250mhz R12k's in your Origin2k? Go : :But I bet you must have same processors on one node 8-) Define node? I believe (I'll have to check with the guy from SGI) that you can't mix processors on the same logic board, but you can have logic boards with differing processors in the same chassis. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 7: 6:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D529E15675; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA82124; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:04:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.sbin/pppd Makefile References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 1999 16:04:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: Andrzej Bialecki's message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:39:13 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving from -committers to -chat] Andrzej Bialecki writes: > Hehe... Admit you have a procmail rule to catch all [Dd][Ee][Ss] > occurences in your mail.. ;-) des@des ~% grep -ci des /usr/share/dict/words 997 des@des ~% grep -ci andrzej /usr/share/dict/words 0 DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 8:35:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED9714E47 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18409 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:34:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:34:10 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: IA64: Back on topic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The digression about the i860 was interesting, but let's get back to the topic at hand. So far, I've seen no movement toward development of a FreeBSD port for the IA64, even though Intel has now announced that hardware samples will begin to ship to vendors in Q3. Ports of Linux are already underway. Will FreeBSD be left behind? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9: 6: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF86C14E47 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:06:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id SAA05244; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:03:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA26192; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:17:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990716181736.29991@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:17:36 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic References: <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 09:34:10AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [wrapped to 72 columns] Brett Glass writes: > The digression about the i860 was interesting, but let's get back to > the topic at hand. "Do we really have to, Dad ?" > So far, I've seen no movement toward development of > a FreeBSD port for the IA64, even though Intel has now announced that > hardware samples will begin to ship to vendors in Q3. Ports of Linux > are already underway. Will FreeBSD be left behind? I don't know -- are you working on it ? -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9: 6:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C414156F2 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA01667; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:06:43 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:06:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Narvi wrote: > > : > :On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > :> Irix can do all that, and use different familys and speeds in the same > :> box. Want to mix 200mhz R10k's and 250mhz R12k's in your Origin2k? Go > : > :But I bet you must have same processors on one node 8-) > > Define node? I believe (I'll have to check with the guy from SGI) that > you can't mix processors on the same logic board, but you can have logic > boards with differing processors in the same chassis. > Node - a board which can carry two processors with cache, memory and has a router for connecting to the O2K hypercube interconnection fabric. Or what you above call logic board. Note that there can be other kinds of logic boards in there (the (spider?) router boards) if you have more then one chasis. It helps to disambiguate. In general, the thing thatthe interconnect network connects are called nodes/PEs (processing elements). A node PE can have a number of processors. Local memory is a per PE memory. The SGI O2K arch is a real cool one. You can incrementally add to it to expand. > Jamie Bowden > > -- > > If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9:12:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791371569B for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA01700; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:10:58 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:10:58 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > The digression about the i860 was interesting, but let's get back to the > topic at hand. So far, I've seen no movement toward development of a > FreeBSD port for the IA64, even though Intel has now announced that > hardware samples will begin to ship to vendors in Q3. Ports of Linux are We'll see if they really do. ia64 has kept slipping. Merced may well never see the light, with McKinley coming out instead. It used to be samples Q1, then smaples Q2, now it is samples Q3. How about smaples really Q4? > already underway. Will FreeBSD be left behind? > What can we do before there is any info on the Supervisor side of the things or before we even see a compiler that actuallt generates code for it? > --Brett Glass > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9:24:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9DE14D50 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18960; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:22:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716102002.047bc3e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:21:16 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990716181736.29991@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:17 PM 7/16/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > I don't know -- are you working on it ? I'd like to. However, I don't have the imprimatur to go to Intel and say, "I represent FreeBSD, Inc., and would like to develop a port of FreeBSD for Merced." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9:24:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B6914F05 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18963; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:22:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716102138.04728c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:22:25 -0600 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990716093234.047583c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 PM 7/16/99 +0300, Narvi wrote: >What can we do before there is any info on the Supervisor side of the >things Available from Intel under NDA. >or before we even see a compiler that actuallt generates code for >it? Cygnus has one. You need to be under NDA with Intel to get it, of course. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9:42:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CFD156A0 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-76-134.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.76.134]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16674; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA00533; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:45:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199907161645.MAA00533@bellsouth.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:22:25 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990716102138.04728c80@localhost> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:45:43 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> What can we do before there is any info on the Supervisor side of the >> things > Available from Intel under NDA. ^^^ >> or before we even see a compiler that actuallt generates code for >> it? > Cygnus has one. You need to be under NDA with Intel to get it, of course. ^^^ Look at that word you used twice here. Perhaps this has a small effect on people's willingness to get involved with the Merced? Look it's a bad precedent. If the Linux guys are so gung-ho that they can't insist on full public disclosure of programming information then they are setting themselves up for even more headaches in the future. At the same time, they're helping Intel lower the minimum boundary for acceptable vendor disclosure. They should instead be lobbied to halt work until Intel discloses. I hope the FreeBSD project will mostly ignore the Merced until it works. In this context "works" means a helluva lot more than executing instructions. -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 9:55: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8954914D3F for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19312; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:54:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:54:37 -0600 To: W Gerald Hicks From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net In-Reply-To: <199907161645.MAA00533@bellsouth.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:45 PM 7/16/99 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Cygnus has one. You need to be under NDA with Intel to get it, of course. > ^^^ > >Look at that word you used twice here. Perhaps this has a small >effect on people's willingness to get involved with the Merced? Sorry, but companies -- especially hardware companies -- will always want to keep competitors from knowing their plans. There's nothing immoral about that. They're not under any obligation to tell you anything they don't want to. (If they were, it'd be just as bad as the forced disclosure required by the GPL.) One of the reasons I advocate the BSD approach is that it allows people to choose whether or not to give away their work. The NDAs will expire by the time the chips are available in quantity, so users of the code won't have to do without source. >I hope the FreeBSD project will mostly ignore the Merced until >it works. In this context "works" means a helluva lot more than >executing instructions. This sort of attitude is PRECISELY why FreeBSD is so far behind Linux. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 10: 3:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from southpass.baynetworks.com (ns2.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D9314E13; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thomma@BayNetworks.COM) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (h016b.s86b1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.1.107]) by southpass.baynetworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA00125; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com (fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com [134.177.110.46]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04263; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrera.engwest (carrera.engwest.baynetworks.com) by fedex.engwest.baynetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) Received: from localhost by carrera.engwest (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA07294; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:59:49 -0700 To: Michael.Elbel@consol.de Cc: ni@tellique.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, garyj@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: i860 based computer (was Re: IA64) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:28:52 +0200" <19990716132849.A36231@consol.de> References: <19990716132849.A36231@consol.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.92 on Emacs 19.28 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990716095949C.thomma@baynetworks.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:59:49 -0700 From: Tamiji Homma X-Dispatcher: imput version 971024 Lines: 35 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In lists.freebsd.chat you write: > > >Michael Elbel wrote on freebsd-chat: > > >> Well, all I can say is that in a former life at a former company we > >> were indeed building workstations with i860 processors and only > >> those. Intel *themselves* supplied a SYSVR4 port to the i860 that we > >> used as the base of our own version. > > > I hope I am not giving you away when I mention that this must have been > > the Cadmus Firebox, the only general-purpose machine based on the i860 I > > have ever heard about. Hmmm.... Stratus Computer used to sell i860 SVR4 system. We had to use the expensive system just because of so-called fault tolerance. Hardware was robust but not OS ;-( When OS goes down, all goes down. Since nobody mentioned it, it must be pretty minor. I was really tired of lack of kernel debugging support specially dealing with STREAMS, which I was porting TP4/CLNP to run X.400/X.500 on the machine. I was so happy with FreeBSD 2.0-ALPHA to build the test system X.500/X.400 against Stratus i860. My 486/66 FreeBSD 2.0-ALPHA always beated the quarter million dollar Stratus computer except floating point number crunching, which is never used in the system that I worked on... I also remembered that OKI Electronics used to have i860 based workstation. But it disappeares so fast. I don't even remember the name. I'm maybe wrong about it. Tammy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 10:40:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E4914BFE for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:40:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-76-134.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.76.134]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15755; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA00670; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:43:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199907161743.NAA00670@bellsouth.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:54:37 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:43:57 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>Look at that word you used twice here. Perhaps this has a small >>effect on people's willingness to get involved with the Merced? > >Sorry, but companies -- especially hardware companies -- will always >want to keep competitors from knowing their plans. There's nothing >immoral about that. They're not under any obligation to tell you anything >they don't want to. (If they were, it'd be just as bad as the forced >disclosure required by the GPL.) One of the reasons I advocate the >BSD approach is that it allows people to choose whether or not to >give away their work. And if those terms are not acceptable then people are not forced to use the products either. It's ok to spare the lecture in market dynamics too, we've both been at this for a long time, right? The real truth is, no one really understands the dynamics of these markets yet, they are too young. Certainly now is not the time to give up ground toward proprietary encroachment. That could have _very_ negative long term consequences. It's very important to me, as one of FreeBSD's customers, that the project remain aligned with its principle of openness. > >The NDAs will expire by the time the chips are available in quantity, >so users of the code won't have to do without source. > I haven't reviewed the terms of the NDA and don't intend to. The Merced will become practical for my concerns when there is significant market acceptance and mindshare committed to it. Right now everthing is smoke and mirrors. >>I hope the FreeBSD project will mostly ignore the Merced until >>it works. In this context "works" means a helluva lot more than >>executing instructions. > >This sort of attitude is PRECISELY why FreeBSD is so far behind Linux. > Obviously, I don't agree with you. In their rush to embrace corporate adoption, Linux is experiencing new pressures and obstacles. Being forced to enter an NDA for a CPU is a good example. -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 10:55: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F33F1514F for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19841; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:54:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA04472; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:54:57 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id MAA13521; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:54:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:54:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199907161754.MAA13521@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >At 06:17 PM 7/16/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > >> I don't know -- are you working on it ? > >I'd like to. However, I don't have the imprimatur to go to Intel and say, >"I represent FreeBSD, Inc., and would like to develop a port of FreeBSD >for Merced." Why not? You go to Intel and say: "I'm a FreeBSD developer, and would like to create a port of FreeBSD for Merced." How do you think things get done around here? Isn't ``FreeBSD Inc.'' represented by it's developers? c.f.: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/staff.html -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 10:58:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6388F15193 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19855; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:56:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716114240.04750360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:56:02 -0600 To: W Gerald Hicks From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net In-Reply-To: <199907161743.NAA00670@bellsouth.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:43 PM 7/16/99 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >>Sorry, but companies -- especially hardware companies -- will always > >want to keep competitors from knowing their plans. There's nothing > >immoral about that. They're not under any obligation to tell you anything > >they don't want to. (If they were, it'd be just as bad as the forced > >disclosure required by the GPL.) One of the reasons I advocate the > >BSD approach is that it allows people to choose whether or not to > >give away their work. > >And if those terms are not acceptable then people are not forced to >use the products either. > >It's ok to spare the lecture in market dynamics too, we've both >been at this for a long time, right? > >The real truth is, no one really understands the dynamics of these >markets yet, they are too young. Not so. Companies have placed advance information about microprocessor architectures under NDA for decades. Intel has gone to both extremes. It released information on the iAPX432 years before the product's introduction, and withheld "Appendix H" of the Pentium docs for a couple of years after the CPU shipped (and suffered for it). They should now have enough data to make intelligent choices. > Certainly now is not the time >to give up ground toward proprietary encroachment. Withholding data before a product's release is not "proprietary encroachment." It's not encroaching upon anyone else's rights. What's more, it is a legitimate defensive move. As you may or may not be aware, a court has now ordered that Intel reveal advance information to all vendors on equal terms. Thus, Intel must also be fair. They can't demand an NDA from someone else and give you advance information without an NDA. >It's very important to me, as one of FreeBSD's customers, that >the project remain aligned with its principle of openness. The code generated by the FreeBSD project will surely be open, and would not be covered by an NDA by the time the CPU shipped. There is nothing wrong with starting early under NDA. >I haven't reviewed the terms of the NDA and don't intend to. Then how can you judge it? >The >Merced will become practical for my concerns when there is significant >market acceptance and mindshare committed to it. At which point, the code is sure to be publicly available. In short, there's no problem with regard to openness. What you're advocating, however, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. He who makes unreasonable demands deserves to lose. Just as Mr. Hubbard demands that FreeBSD not have effective advocacy (ignoring the well-known principles of competition among replicators), you demand that others give up their intellectual property and market advantage just because you say so. Intel doesn't care about such unreasonable demands. Nor does it have to care. Nor SHOULD it care. If you're unable to play well with others, the loss is yours, and FreeBSD's. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 10:59:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCDB156AB for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19875; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:58:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:58:39 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic In-Reply-To: <199907161754.MAA13521@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:54 PM 7/16/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Why not? You go to Intel and say: > > "I'm a FreeBSD developer, and would like to create a > port of FreeBSD for Merced." And they say, "What position do you hold in the organization? Are you signing this NDA on behalf of yourself or on behalf of the entire organization? If you're working on your own, how do we know that the organization will accept your work? How do you know that they won't leak material covered by the NDA?" They'd be right to ask these questions. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 11:18:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DB6156AD for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19978; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:18:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id NAA07879; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:18:36 -0500 Message-ID: <19990716131836.43908@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:18:36 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic References: <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Jul 07, 1999 at 11:58:39AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 07, 1999 at 11:58:39AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:54 PM 7/16/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >Why not? You go to Intel and say: > > > > "I'm a FreeBSD developer, and would like to create a > > port of FreeBSD for Merced." > > And they say, "What position do you hold in the organization? > Are you signing this NDA on behalf of yourself or on behalf > of the entire organization? If you're working on your own, > how do we know that the organization will accept your work? > How do you know that they won't leak material covered by the > NDA?" And you answer: 1. The position is `developer', which indicates that engineering work is done on behalf of FreeBSD. 2. The NDA applies only to yourself. 3. There is no guarantee that the organization will accept your work. This is no different than signing an NDA with a corporation; there is no guarantee that the corporation will actually ship a product. 4. Moot point. If you're covered by an NDA, you can't submit it to the organization. If you want to share it with other developers, they have to sign an NDA too. Again, this isn't much different than a corporation, where each employee who is working on NDA code must sign the NDA agreement. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 11:53: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF5B14C80; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:52:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA20382; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA02363; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:51:02 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA07985; Fri, 16 Jul 99 11:50:55 PDT Message-Id: <378F7F0F.873EA9A4@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:50:55 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907151956.MAA03978@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > > browsing interface, so where are they? :) > > I don't know if this is their report format or not: > > http://www.bitkeeper.com/bugdb/ > > I'm pretty sure the log is on a different machine, which you would > know the name of if you sent email to them and signed on for a > beta. > > I would, but I'm not the head of a free software project. ;-). No more TerryBSD? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 12:11: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [209.244.238.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8DA14BDD; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10165; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:38:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199907161838.OAA10165@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: IA64 In-Reply-To: <19990716132849.A36231@consol.de> from Michael Elbel at "Jul 16, 99 01:28:52 pm" To: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (Michael Elbel) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Cc: ni@tellique.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, garyj@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yeah I remember that there was somebody like Convex (was it Convex, Gary) > who were interested in OEMing the Fireboxes as workstation type boxes > together with their own multiprocessor i860 machines. It was Alliant with BSD based Concentrix on the FX/2800 series. I used to do real time work for them prior to their bankruptcy. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 12:28:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D70156D7 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA03339; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:27:27 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:27:26 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990716102138.04728c80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:10 PM 7/16/99 +0300, Narvi wrote: > > >What can we do before there is any info on the Supervisor side of the > >things > > Available from Intel under NDA. > > >or before we even see a compiler that actuallt generates code for > >it? > > Cygnus has one. You need to be under NDA with Intel to get it, of course. > > --Brett > Well, there could just aswell be FreeBSD devlopers under NDA who cannot say so because of the NDA for all we know. Information available under NDA is practically the same as *NO* information. I think anybody havingthe skills of doing FreeBSD porting/kernel work is much better spent on Alpha and problems FreeBSD has, and most definately not on IA64. IMHO no point of even thinking about IA64 befoore somebody has at least *demoed* a machine. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 13:34:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peedub.muc.de (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C850D14DA3 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA12541; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:33:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907162033.WAA12541@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Michael Elbel Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IA64 Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:57:57 +0200." <19990716132849.A36231@consol.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:33:44 +0200 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NOTE: I don't subscribe to -chat, so Cc me. Michael Elbel writes: > > PCS never managed to sell any substantial number of boxes. > IIRC the only company that bought larger numbers was Hartmann & Braun. Thay used them as front-ends for a process control system. I think we (Compaq Enterprise Engineering Center) still have a maintenance contract with them. >Yeah I remember that there was somebody like Convex (was it Convex, Gary) >who were interested in OEMing the Fireboxes as workstation type boxes >together with their own multiprocessor i860 machines. > I can't remeber. I was at a show once where I saw some Taiwanese or Koreans who had an i860-based box. Nothing ever came of it either. >>> I believe that Gary Jennejohn still uses one of the beasts as an X >>> terminal. > >>Cool. Does anybody have one for sale? :-) > I have several of them here in Munich. I also have a whole slew of the 50 MHz i860XPs, the multiprocessor capable version, which were never used. They were trashed just recently (left over from PCS days). I have no idea who asked about buying one of these things, since Michael seems to have deleted that. Anyway, you pay the shipping and you can have all the Fireboxes which I have (3), including the Sony monitors which go with them. The graphics card was designed to work with the Sony, although a modern Multi-Sync monitor would probably work also. > It only does 60 Hz < --- Gary Jennejohn Home - garyj@muc.de Work - garyj@fkr.dec.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 14:47:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E2DC114D01 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 87156 invoked from network); 16 Jul 1999 21:47:29 -0000 Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.42) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 1999 21:47:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:47:29 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: setiathome standings Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was looking at the FreeBSD group standings, and saw this, not very shocking statistic: 4) jkh jkh@freebsd.org 666 6092 hr 51 min 18.9 sec 9 hr 08 min 54.4 sec David scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 15:57:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3D814DE4 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17019; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:13:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd016930; Fri Jul 16 16:13:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16303; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:57:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907162257.PAA16303@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:57:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001becf24$b6b12eb0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 15, 99 05:47:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > So, what we get back to is, what's one thing that's wrong with FreeBSD? > > > Threads. > > > > That's actually "what's wrong with applications?". The closest you > > can get to blaiming FreeBSD for this is "why can't FreeBSD run > > these applications that rely on threads in an SMP scalable way?". I > > could easily ask a similar question: "why can't FreeBSD run Microsoft > > Office 2000?". > > No, there is a legitimate question here that you are evading. Why does > FreeBSD block a whole process if one thread blocks? There is no requirement > that it do so. The standards suggest otherwise. FreeBSD's support of POSIX > threads is deficient. FreeBSD's user space threads implementation uses call conversion to wrap system calls. As a result, "blocking" system calls do not block other threads. In point of fact, a "blocking" call made by a thread will result in a user space threads scheduler entry, which will result in that thread being suspended until the blocking call can be completed without blocking. This is the definition of a "user space threads call conversion scheduler", which is a permissable implementation, according to POSIX 1003.1c. If you are talking about non-system call interfaces that sit in spin loops (e.g. library calls), then you are talking about something else being the source of your problem (i.e. it's not FreeBSD's fault that the code does not work, it's the code's fault). Such problem code should be corrected to use a pthread_mutex_t, and not a spin loop, per the recommendation of POSIX 1003.1c, which is the standard which defines the pthreads interface. In other words: Q: "Why does FreeBSD block a whole process if one thread blocks?" A: "Because the code that is blocking is buggy." My recommendations would be: 1) Make sure you are linking against libc_r and not libc 2) If the problem is in a library, fix the library. Most GNU derived libraries (GDBM, etc.) have the perverse assumption about the implemetnation architecture, despite the POSIX 1003.1c requirements for writing working programs. 3) If your code, itself, is using spin locks, fix it, becuase you should be using pthreads synchrinization primitives if you are calling pthreads interfaces (e.g. pthread_create). 4) If you can identify a bonifide test case in FreeBSD where a FreeBSD supplied library or system call causes a block rather than a call conversion, please provide a test case, and it will be fixed. I have had no problems running LDAP, ACAP, and other well-written pthreads using code on FreeBSD, without seeing the problems you are claiming to see. Let me know when/if you can provide any test cases, and I will be happy to help diagnose the actual source of the problem. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 16:28: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019F314CAE for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:28:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:26:37 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:26:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000001becfe2$a63dd060$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907162257.PAA16303@usr05.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD's user space threads implementation uses call conversion > to wrap system calls. Some system calls. > As a result, "blocking" system calls do not block other threads. In > point of fact, a "blocking" call made by a thread will result in a > user space threads scheduler entry, which will result in that thread > being suspended until the blocking call can be completed without > blocking. Is this true for a read of a file mounted from a slow NFS server? > If you are talking about non-system call interfaces that sit in spin > loops (e.g. library calls), then you are talking about something else > being the source of your problem (i.e. it's not FreeBSD's fault that > the code does not work, it's the code's fault). No, I think it was quite clear what I was talking about. > In other words: > > Q: "Why does FreeBSD block a whole process if one thread blocks?" > > A: "Because the code that is blocking is buggy." Umm, huh? Reading from an NFS server is buggy? Reading from a slow disk is buggy? > rather than a call conversion, please provide a test case, > and it will be fixed. > > I have had no problems running LDAP, ACAP, and other well-written > pthreads using code on FreeBSD, without seeing the problems you > are claiming to see. I see them all the time. 'gethostbyname' is a good example. NFS reads are too. > Let me know when/if you can provide any test cases, and I will > be happy to help diagnose the actual source of the problem. Any problem can be fixed ten ways. The thing is, if code that runs fine everywhere else breaks on FreeBSD, you have to start suspecting that it's the OS. The point of this is not "FreeBSD's threads is bad", it's not that bad. It's just not up to some real world applications. And for those, another OS might be a better choice. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 16:46:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78D514EFE for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18188; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:46:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018109; Fri Jul 16 16:45:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18013; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:45:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907162345.QAA18013@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:45:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Jul 15, 99 06:42:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Thank you for spewing some geek-speak into an unrelated discussion. I > > > welcome you to bring forth a new webserver that can duplicate everything > > > that Apache can do with the same developer support that Apache has using a > > > different model. > > > You, yourself, indicated that the process architecture was in flux; > > if so, then it would be a good idea if it got away from threads > > dependencies before it solidifies to something that won't run at > > all on some platforms. > > This isn't a discussion about Apache; Apache is just an example of piece > of software that requires threads. Your argument was that making > FreeBSD's threads efficient was a waste of time because nobody needs > threads. My argument is that "needing" threads is irrelevant, because > people use threads. No, my argument was against getting al het up about FreeBSD not having kernel threads, or all excited that kernel threads are somehow important for performance. > I just thought of another high profile system that uses threads. MySQL. > It's all threaded. Threads for MySQL are damn cool, 'coz it leaves a tiny > memory footprint, especially when compared to other similar systems like > PostGres that are process oriented. Yes. And you'll notice that it runs just fine on FreeBSD. So I guess FreeBSD does have working threads. > Or, the aio_* functions that have been bandied around a bit. AFAIK, those > are all implemented in their respective OS with kernel threads, are they > not? No. They are not. They are implemented with context structures, which the kernel updates when the operation is completed as a result of a wakeup() call -- in other words, the operation still blocks the call, but it does not block the process that made the call. See the man pages for aio_wait and aio_cancel for details of the operation of the context structure. > > I believe the Zeus server, which the Linux folks were complaining > > was not being tested by Mindcraft (instead of Apache) supports > > this model, since it requires the ability to do clustering, and > > migrating a thread across machines is computationally hard. > > Zeus uses select, and has the problem that it blocks on I/O. It's not > using the model you suggest. Wait. Does it use "select", or does it "block on I/O". Select does not return a 1 bit unless I/O will not block. > I've heard this can be a serious issue on, say, serving files off NFS. > Doubly so on FreeBSD, I suppose... Wrong. fcntl( fd, F_SETFL, O_NONBLOCK); It will return an "EWOULDBLOCK" on a failed attempt to read or write, which could be reattempted later. > > > So, what we get back to is, what's one thing that's wrong with FreeBSD? > > > Threads. > > > > That's actually "what's wrong with applications?". The closest you > > can get to blaiming FreeBSD for this is "why can't FreeBSD run > > these applications that rely on threads in an SMP scalable way?". I > > could easily ask a similar question: "why can't FreeBSD run Microsoft > > Office 2000?". > > No, it's "what's wrong with FreeBSD?". Funny; mySQL, ACAP, and LDAP are all threaded, and they all run fine on FreeBSD. So does nay other pthreads application that conforms to POSIX 1003.1c. Any application which doesn't run (e.g. the claims of one thread blocking all other threads) is, by definition of POSIX 1003.1c, broken. > > It matters if the Apache process architecture is in flux, and can > > be affected in such a way as to not unneccessarily preclude having > > good performance on dozens of platforms for the benefit of having > > good performance on a single platform that happens to be the > > current benchmark target. > > So, go talk to the Apache Group and tell them your opinions. A lot of > them have pretty strong opinions about this. > > This isn't an Apache issue. This is a simple question relating to one > aspect of FreeBSD, and whether or not you agree with that aspect has no > relevance. Apache will run on FreeBSD. THe Apache group uses FreeBSD to serve their web pages. They're not going to break that. > So? My point is, was, and will be, that FreeBSD doesn't *currently* have > good threading. I never said that FreeBSD can't *get* good threading. FreeBSD currently has good threading. FreeBSD currently does not have SMP scalable threading. Neither does Linux, given their lack of scheduler activations and CPU affinity code. Note that all these scheduler problems "just go away", if you are not so stupid as to implement your threads as kernel objects (Like Linux and Solaris and SVR4). It's not that "FreeBSD can't do blah blah blah", it's that "there has been no compelling reason, so far, for FreeBSD to do blah blah blah" (for the purposes of this discussion, "SMP scalable threads" is "blah blah blah"). SMP scalability for user space threading in FreeBSD is a matter of 1) a small user space threads scheduler change to allow for one stack per each anticipated CPU in user space. 2) the addition of one u_init32_t to the proc structure. 3) a straight forward addition of per CPU ready-to-run queues and simple reference to the u_init32_t proc structure element in schedcpu() that defaults to "0" (all bits not set). Processes without the 0'th bit set would pick a CPU based on which CPU has the lowest number of processess in its ready to run queue. 4) a system call to allow more than one CPU to be asked to visit user space (probably via a minor mod to rfork(2) to add RFADDONECPU and RFADDALLCPU flags) that sets bits in the u_init32_t, examines the global containing the number of CPU's in the system, and adds an entry to the per CPU ready-to-run queue of one (or more, if desired) CPU. 5) a minor change to execve(), exit1(), and fork1() to manage the u_init32_t contents on a fork1() or execve() entry, and to deschedule from other CPU's any scheduled entries into user space on an execve() or exit1(). In other words, childs play. Now that I've listed it out, it would take a day, tops, for most programmers I have ever worked with to implement. Even the Microsoft Windows hacks, if I point them at the right files and tell them where to type "make". Note 1: Complicated crap, like high and low watermarking, average per CPU load calculation, and CPU affinity (other than maybe locking a single process the first time you call "rfork(RFADDONECPU)") could come later as people gave a damn about it, and could prove that the oft asked question "how do I make a process stay on one CPU?" was actually meaningful with regard to performance. Note 2: In my experience, complicated crap generally doesn't result in the performance imporvements you naievely think it will when you first go at the problem (e.g. kernel threads). Note 3: A better implementation would use a pointer to an allocated bit array that gets allocated based on the number of CPU's, instead of a u_int32_t. On a 32 bit box, this would be the same increase in size of the proc structure, at the cost of an additional pointer dereference. > > > That's naive. Especially when you're talking about development > > > on what's supposedly a "server OS". > > > > Server != threads. > > Server = runs server software, which means it is probably going to be > doing one of a few tasks, mostly related to returning files or data. If > it can't do that, then it's a bad server OS. And if a large number of > software products require threads (and they do! they do! that's the > point!) and FreeBSD can't do threads well, then it's a bad server OS. > > Ok, not necessarily bad -- just not suited to those particular tasks. Server class software is generally software which is very aware of performance issues. Software which is very aware of issues doesn't use threads (or at least doesn't use threads in version 2.0). Non-blocking I/O, or async I/O, if they are data pumps and need to interleave I/O instead of increasing CPU cycles thrown at the problem -- not likely, given that a single Xeon, the WC CDROM FTP server, can saturate an OC3, and tops out on I/O capability, not instructions -- is a better use of the CPU, than spending time in a user space (or kernel, if the threads are badly implemented) scheduler. > > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. > > Yes, they are. That's the point of the APR and MPM projects. However, > threading's in there! Uh, you are misreading this... read it again: > > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. ***** ****** It's a double negative indicating that I believe they are aware, despite using "configure", of how to program server class software. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 16:59: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245E814C86 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21073; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:55:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd021049; Fri Jul 16 16:55:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18238; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:55:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907162355.QAA18238@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Configure considered Harmful To: Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk (Dominic Mitchell) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:55:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990716084229.A48601@palmerharvey.co.uk> from "Dominic Mitchell" at Jul 16, 99 08:42:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. > > Evil configure program? > > I find gnu configure scripts to be a blessing, but I'm merely an > administrator... > > Please explain what is so awful about them. It's a program that abstracts platform specific things from the sight of the programmer. This has several things wrong with it: 1) It duplicates the effort that created Imake before configure ever existed. 2) It puts the knowledge about the platform in the script, instead of in the tool that does the generation (i.e. like Imake), which means that: a) it has a hard time recognizing new platforms b) you have to tell it about new platforms for each program, instead of once (i.e. as in "the one time you port Imake") 3) It put things out of the sight of the programmer, increasing the liklihood that the programmer will not take per-platform algorithmic abstraction into account in their design. 4) By way of #3, we are breeding a whole generation of performance tweaking ignorant programmers. 5) It generates Makefiles that do macro expansion of macros, so that the resulting Makefile required GNU make to run, instead of the standard make. 6) It, itself, has such a macro, and requires GNU make to build. 7) It put things out of the sight of the programmer (I know this is a repeat, but it's so horrible that it has to be said again). As always, your mileage may vary. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 17: 0:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ayukawa.aus.org (ayukawa.aus.org [199.166.246.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB0B14D76 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lh@aus.org) Received: from PHOENIX.ZER0.NET (lh@PHOENIX.ZER0.NET [199.166.246.189]) by ayukawa.aus.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23739 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907162359.TAA23739@ayukawa.aus.org> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-10 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199907162345.QAA18013@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: lh@aus.org From: Luke To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> I just thought of another high profile system that uses threads. MySQL. >> It's all threaded. Threads for MySQL are damn cool, 'coz it leaves a tiny >> memory footprint, especially when compared to other similar systems like >> PostGres that are process oriented. > >Yes. And you'll notice that it runs just fine on FreeBSD. So I guess >FreeBSD does have working threads. I dont even know what threads are but mysql on 3.2-release doesnt work with -lc_r unless you get a different one, like from 3.1 or -current. otherwise you have to use mit-threads. I am on a mysql mailing list where the majority of freebsd questions involve problems resulting from having to use the mit-threads included with mysql instead of -lc_r. I lost a decision between freebsd & linux being used for a client because of this. I must say though, that on my -current box -lc_r has worked alot of the time in the last few months. Luke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 17: 0:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D579914F94 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:56:25 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Tani Hosokawa" Cc: Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:56:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000001becfe6$cfd67a40$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907162345.QAA18013@usr05.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, my argument was against getting al het up about FreeBSD not > having kernel threads, or all excited that kernel threads are > somehow important for performance. Agreed. Kernel threads are nice, but they're not vital. And, of course, kernel threads can cause problems in situations that are fine with user-space threads implementations, such as creating 1,000 threads. > > I just thought of another high profile system that uses threads. MySQL. > > It's all threaded. Threads for MySQL are damn cool, 'coz it > leaves a tiny > > memory footprint, especially when compared to other similar systems like > > PostGres that are process oriented. > > Yes. And you'll notice that it runs just fine on FreeBSD. So I guess > FreeBSD does have working threads. It's at least theoretically vulnerable to disk I/O blocking. Unless it does this: > fcntl( fd, F_SETFL, O_NONBLOCK); > > It will return an "EWOULDBLOCK" on a failed attempt to read or write, > which could be reattempted later. Yes, the question is, is this better than kernel threads? I think the answer is a pretty clear NO in many cases for many reasons. This requires a lot more work saving context, for example. > So does nay other pthreads application that conforms to POSIX 1003.1c. > > Any application which doesn't run (e.g. the claims of one thread > blocking all other threads) is, by definition of POSIX 1003.1c, broken. Please, that's not true and I'm pretty sure you know it. 'gethostbyname' and NFS reads are good examples. Unless the user-space threads library wraps all NFS file I/O. Does it? If it does, half my argument goes away. :) > > So? My point is, was, and will be, that FreeBSD doesn't > *currently* have > > good threading. I never said that FreeBSD can't *get* good threading. > > FreeBSD currently has good threading. Agreed. A user-space threads implementation is perfectly fine for a significant fraction of the real uses of threads. Just not all of them. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 17: 9:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0193B14FC2; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26562; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:09:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026537; Fri Jul 16 17:09:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18806; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:09:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907170009.RAA18806@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:09:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378F7F0F.873EA9A4@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 16, 99 12:50:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > > > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > > > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > > > browsing interface, so where are they? :) > > > > I don't know if this is their report format or not: > > > > http://www.bitkeeper.com/bugdb/ > > > > I'm pretty sure the log is on a different machine, which you would > > know the name of if you sent email to them and signed on for a > > beta. > > > > I would, but I'm not the head of a free software project. ;-). > > No more TerryBSD? ;^) I'm hoping for a "TerryBSD group" in the FreeBSD bitkeeper repository. I'm not stuck on the name; I'd be just as happy with, say, "New Technology" (FreeBSD/NT), or "VFS Research" (FreeBSD/VR), which both have a nice marketing cachet... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 17:26: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1062E14C2B for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24596; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:25:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:25:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Terry Lambert Cc: davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? In-Reply-To: <199907162345.QAA18013@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > This isn't a discussion about Apache; Apache is just an example of piece > > of software that requires threads. Your argument was that making > > FreeBSD's threads efficient was a waste of time because nobody needs > > threads. My argument is that "needing" threads is irrelevant, because > > people use threads. > No, my argument was against getting al het up about FreeBSD not > having kernel threads, or all excited that kernel threads are > somehow important for performance. Threads are important for performance if the software you need to run uses threads. I'm repeating myself, but I have no choice. > > I just thought of another high profile system that uses threads. MySQL. > > It's all threaded. Threads for MySQL are damn cool, 'coz it leaves a tiny > > memory footprint, especially when compared to other similar systems like > > PostGres that are process oriented. > Yes. And you'll notice that it runs just fine on FreeBSD. So I guess > FreeBSD does have working threads. Does it? Would it work just as well if I had to have 3000 MySQL connections to a quad-Xeon running FreeBSD? > > Or, the aio_* functions that have been bandied around a bit. AFAIK, those > > are all implemented in their respective OS with kernel threads, are they > > not? > No. They are not. They are implemented with context structures, > which the kernel updates when the operation is completed as a > result of a wakeup() call -- in other words, the operation still > blocks the call, but it does not block the process that made the > call. See the man pages for aio_wait and aio_cancel for details of > the operation of the context structure. Ok, I'd heard they used threads. It's just one example. > > Zeus uses select, and has the problem that it blocks on I/O. It's not > > using the model you suggest. > Wait. Does it use "select", or does it "block on I/O". Select > does not return a 1 bit unless I/O will not block. It selects on network I/O. Filesystems accesses will still block, AFAIK. > > I've heard this can be a serious issue on, say, serving files off NFS. > > Doubly so on FreeBSD, I suppose... > Wrong. > fcntl( fd, F_SETFL, O_NONBLOCK); > It will return an "EWOULDBLOCK" on a failed attempt to read or write, > which could be reattempted later. A good way to burn CPU cycles. It's actually *more* efficient to have a thread blocking on I/O than it is to continually be trying reads, especially if you have multiple data sources, where only one of them is in a situation where it would block. > > > That's actually "what's wrong with applications?". The closest you > > > can get to blaiming FreeBSD for this is "why can't FreeBSD run > > > these applications that rely on threads in an SMP scalable way?". I > > > could easily ask a similar question: "why can't FreeBSD run Microsoft > > > Office 2000?". > > No, it's "what's wrong with FreeBSD?". > Funny; mySQL, ACAP, and LDAP are all threaded, and they all run fine > on FreeBSD. I can't comment on ACAP and LDAP, but I think you're entirely wrong about MySQL, at least in some circumstances. > So does nay other pthreads application that conforms to POSIX 1003.1c. > > Any application which doesn't run (e.g. the claims of one thread > blocking all other threads) is, by definition of POSIX 1003.1c, broken. That's a wacky claim. It's not a question of "running", it's a question of "running well" which is entirely different. > > So, go talk to the Apache Group and tell them your opinions. A lot of > > them have pretty strong opinions about this. > > > > This isn't an Apache issue. This is a simple question relating to one > > aspect of FreeBSD, and whether or not you agree with that aspect has no > > relevance. > Apache will run on FreeBSD. THe Apache group uses FreeBSD to serve > their web pages. They're not going to break that. I never suggested that Apache would break. I said that Apache wouldn't run as well under FreeBSD as it would under some OS that put a lot of effort into having more thread-friendly library routines, etc. This won't be an issue for Apache's homepage, but it will be an issue for Joe Blow with his big SMP box moving 50 megabit of data. In a case like this, it might even be cheaper to go with a different OS because you can skip buying an extra server. I don't know what the performance ramifications, but if FreeBSD isn't as fast as X OS, then you know what's going to get used... > > So? My point is, was, and will be, that FreeBSD doesn't *currently* have > > good threading. I never said that FreeBSD can't *get* good threading. > > FreeBSD currently has good threading. > > FreeBSD currently does not have SMP scalable threading. Neither does > Linux, given their lack of scheduler activations and CPU affinity code. Why do people always start off with that? Who cares? I don't care if Linux *specifically* has better threads than FreeBSD. I care that FreeBSD doesn't have the best threads. > Note that all these scheduler problems "just go away", if you are not > so stupid as to implement your threads as kernel objects (Like Linux > and Solaris and SVR4). > > It's not that "FreeBSD can't do blah blah blah", it's that "there has > been no compelling reason, so far, for FreeBSD to do blah blah blah" > (for the purposes of this discussion, "SMP scalable threads" is > "blah blah blah"). > > SMP scalability for user space threading in FreeBSD is a matter of > > 1) a small user space threads scheduler change to allow for > one stack per each anticipated CPU in user space. > > 2) the addition of one u_init32_t to the proc structure. > > 3) a straight forward addition of per CPU ready-to-run queues > and simple reference to the u_init32_t proc structure > element in schedcpu() that defaults to "0" (all bits not > set). Processes without the 0'th bit set would pick a > CPU based on which CPU has the lowest number of processess > in its ready to run queue. > > 4) a system call to allow more than one CPU to be asked to > visit user space (probably via a minor mod to rfork(2) to > add RFADDONECPU and RFADDALLCPU flags) that sets bits in > the u_init32_t, examines the global containing the number > of CPU's in the system, and adds an entry to the per CPU > ready-to-run queue of one (or more, if desired) CPU. > > 5) a minor change to execve(), exit1(), and fork1() to manage > the u_init32_t contents on a fork1() or execve() entry, > and to deschedule from other CPU's any scheduled entries > into user space on an execve() or exit1(). > > In other words, childs play. > > Now that I've listed it out, it would take a day, tops, for most > programmers I have ever worked with to implement. Even the > Microsoft Windows hacks, if I point them at the right files and > tell them where to type "make". Spiffy. Go for it. Or don't. The point is, that's not done, and even if what you say is correct, that's not done (did I say that already?). [semi-related stuff snipped] > > Server = runs server software, which means it is probably going to be > > doing one of a few tasks, mostly related to returning files or data. If > > it can't do that, then it's a bad server OS. And if a large number of > > software products require threads (and they do! they do! that's the > > point!) and FreeBSD can't do threads well, then it's a bad server OS. > > > > Ok, not necessarily bad -- just not suited to those particular tasks. > Server class software is generally software which is very aware of > performance issues. > > Software which is very aware of issues doesn't use threads (or at > least doesn't use threads in version 2.0). Non-blocking I/O, or > async I/O, if they are data pumps and need to interleave I/O instead > of increasing CPU cycles thrown at the problem -- not likely, given > that a single Xeon, the WC CDROM FTP server, can saturate an OC3, > and tops out on I/O capability, not instructions -- is a better > use of the CPU, than spending time in a user space (or kernel, if > the threads are badly implemented) scheduler. This is naive. The real world doesn't work this way. > > > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > > > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. > > > > Yes, they are. That's the point of the APR and MPM projects. However, > > threading's in there! > > Uh, you are misreading this... read it again: > > > > Even given the existance of the evil "configure" program I really > > > doubt the Apache people aren't (very) wise to this. > ***** ****** > > It's a double negative indicating that I believe they are aware, > despite using "configure", of how to program server class software. I'm not misreading, I'm agreeing. I too believe that the Apache Group is a capable group of programmers. You were making some point about abstracting the scheduling, etc, which is what the APR and MPM projects are doing (as well as abstracting a bunch more stuff, but that's unimportant). My point was, yeah... but threading is in there, so get used to it and quit trying to avoid the actual issues. The issues are not the technical merits of programs that use threads. The issues are the ability of FreeBSD to provide an operating environment that is as or more efficient than that of other OS performing the exact same tasks with the exact same software (optimized for platform obviously, but I think it's a bit too much to ask for the entire software paradigm to be different on each OS). --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 17:27: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A985114C2B for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02542; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:26:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd002515; Fri Jul 16 17:26:47 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19207; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:26:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907170026.RAA19207@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:26:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001becfe2$a63dd060$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 16, 99 04:26:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > FreeBSD's user space threads implementation uses call conversion > > to wrap system calls. > > Some system calls. Which ones? What you are saying is tantatmount claiming that libc_r is incomplete. Identify the problems that you are having, and they will be fixed. Just saying "it's broke" is worse than useless. > > As a result, "blocking" system calls do not block other threads. In > > point of fact, a "blocking" call made by a thread will result in a > > user space threads scheduler entry, which will result in that thread > > being suspended until the blocking call can be completed without > > blocking. > > Is this true for a read of a file mounted from a slow NFS server? Yes. The NFS code can return "EWOULDBLOCK", if the operation would block. If the NFS server is merely slow, then using non-blocking I/O will cause the data to be prefetched, and the read can be retried. The user space threads implementation in FreeBSD uses non-blocking I/O as the main mechanism for implementing call conversion of blocking calls to non-blocking calls with a context switch forced on an EWOULDBLOCK result. > Umm, huh? Reading from an NFS server is buggy? Reading from a slow disk is > buggy? No. Both cases should result in an EWOULDBLOCK and a threads context switch, pending the data being present to be read, since non-blocking I/O is being substituted. > > rather than a call conversion, please provide a test case, > > and it will be fixed. > > > > I have had no problems running LDAP, ACAP, and other well-written > > pthreads using code on FreeBSD, without seeing the problems you > > are claiming to see. > > I see them all the time. 'gethostbyname' is a good example. Are you forcing the use of TCP for this? This results in a spin loop. Please obtain and compile the libresolver from bind 8.x, which is reentrant, and link it before you link libc_r. > NFS reads are too. A slow server should be no problem. The read call, in the case of non-blocking I/O, checks for the presence of a local backing page, and if it is not present, schedules a fault-in of the page (the real read), and returns "EWOULDBLOCK". If you are saying this does not work, then it is a bug that needs to be addressed. I believe Matt Dillon is currently hacking in the NFS code, and could address this in almost no time, given his familiarity with the VM system. > > Let me know when/if you can provide any test cases, and I will > > be happy to help diagnose the actual source of the problem. > > Any problem can be fixed ten ways. The thing is, if code > that runs fine everywhere else breaks on FreeBSD, you have to > start suspecting that it's the OS. The point of this is not > "FreeBSD's threads is bad", it's not that bad. It's just not up > to some real world applications. And for those, another OS might > be a better choice. If it's "not that bad", then it won't take 10 years to fix. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 17:37:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2232C14CF7 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:36:15 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: , Subject: RE: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:36:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000101becfec$605cd280$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199907170026.RAA19207@usr05.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > FreeBSD's user space threads implementation uses call conversion > > > to wrap system calls. > > > > Some system calls. > > Which ones? What you are saying is tantatmount claiming that libc_r > is incomplete. Identify the problems that you are having, and they > will be fixed. > > Just saying "it's broke" is worse than useless. I was under the impression that disk I/O was still blocking in FreeBSD's libc_r. I was also under the impression that the resolver was blocking. If disk I/O really is non-blocking, I would expect the performance to suffer because thread context switches in a user-space threads implementation are generally more expensive than a kernel thread blocking on I/O. User-space threads are not inherently bad, they just have different tradeoffs than kernel threads. > Yes. The NFS code can return "EWOULDBLOCK", if the operation would > block. But does libc_r do this? As I see it, there are two answers, and both are at least somewhat bad: 1) Yes. Which means that a significant fraction of disk I/O will require extra user-space thread context switches. 2) No. Which means that slow I/O will stall all the threads. > > Umm, huh? Reading from an NFS server is buggy? Reading from a > slow disk is > > buggy? > > No. Both cases should result in an EWOULDBLOCK and a threads context > switch, pending the data being present to be read, since non-blocking > I/O is being substituted. Which means unneccesary context switches, when simply waiting would be better. The problem is, if you want to avoid the occasional long delay, you have to accept extra context switches all the time. Not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but it's a tradeoff. > > I see them all the time. 'gethostbyname' is a good example. > > Are you forcing the use of TCP for this? This results in a spin > loop. > > Please obtain and compile the libresolver from bind 8.x, which is > reentrant, and link it before you link libc_r. I am calling 'gethostbyname'. Is that wrong? Bind's license, unfortunately, prohibits me from linking to it. Once I wrote my own resolver library, this problem goes away. But not everyone can spend the time to do that to optimize for a platform. > > NFS reads are too. > > A slow server should be no problem. The read call, in the case > of non-blocking I/O, checks for the presence of a local backing > page, and if it is not present, schedules a fault-in of the page > (the real read), and returns "EWOULDBLOCK". > > If you are saying this does not work, then it is a bug that > needs to be addressed. I believe Matt Dillon is currently > hacking in the NFS code, and could address this in almost no > time, given his familiarity with the VM system. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a painful tradeoff. What you want is a thread to block if the I/O takes too long. You don't have that choice. > > Any problem can be fixed ten ways. The thing is, if code > > that runs fine everywhere else breaks on FreeBSD, you have to > > start suspecting that it's the OS. The point of this is not > > "FreeBSD's threads is bad", it's not that bad. It's just not up > > to some real world applications. And for those, another OS might > > be a better choice. > > If it's "not that bad", then it won't take 10 years to fix. Yes, I've been waiting for fixes in FreeBSD's threads implementation for more than a year now. The vast majority of them have taken place, and I'm fairly happy with the current state of FreeBSD's threads support. However, it is really not as good as the threads support on many other operating systems, including NT. If you need stellar threads support, FreeBSD is not the operating system you probably want to use. At the current rate of progress though, this could change in a few months. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 16 21:16: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5180514E0F; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id NAA09253; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:15:23 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37900353.5F688C0A@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:15:15 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Wes Peters , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907170009.RAA18806@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > No more TerryBSD? ;^) > > I'm hoping for a "TerryBSD group" in the FreeBSD bitkeeper > repository. I'm not stuck on the name; I'd be just as happy > with, say, "New Technology" (FreeBSD/NT), or "VFS Research" > (FreeBSD/VR), which both have a nice marketing cachet... And deprive us of actually being able to run a TerryBSD? You wish! :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Would you like to go out with me?" "I'd love to." "Oh, well, n... err... would you?... ahh... huh... what do I do next?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 4:12:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E230114D68 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p1bs12a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.220.28] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 115SOJ-0007JW-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:12:27 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id MAA00478 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:06:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:06:18 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Klingon Programmers (humour) Message-ID: <19990717120618.C269@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Star Trekkers Top 12 things likely to be overheard if you had a Klingon Programmer 12) "Specifications are for the weak and timid!" 11) "This machine is a piece of GAGH! I need dual Pentium processors if I am to do battle with this code!" 10) "You cannot really appreciate Dilbert unless you've read it in the original Klingon." 9) "Indentation?! - I will show you how to indent when I indent your skull!" 8) "What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not make software 'releases'. Our software 'escapes' leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in it's wake." 7) "Klingon function calls do not have 'parameters' - they have 'arguments' -- and they ALWAYS WIN THEM." 6) "Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak." 5) "I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth contest. They will not concern us again." 4) "A TRUE Klingon Warrior does not comment his code!" 3) "By filing this SPR you have challenged the honor of my family. Prepare to die!" 2) "You question the worthiness of my code? I should kill you where you stand!" 1) "Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!" -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 6: 3:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1946814C14 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24218; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907171302.JAA24218@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Brett Glass" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:03:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Borland considering UNIX ports Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:45:22 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >Borland seems to be considering ports of their development tools to UNIX-like OSes -- but, so far, only to Linux. However, their survey at >http://www.borland.com/linux/ >has many "other" blanks in which participants can mention a desire for BSD UNIX support. On the Unix distribution I marked Other and wrote "FreeBSD running Linux apps) :-) >Comment on the form mentioned above and maybe it'll happen. Although it would be nice if they port to FreeBSD/BSD too it would be great even if they just do the Linux as long as one can run it under FreeBSD. Many companies, justly so, don't like the idea of too many platforms. Support becomes more expensive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 6:21:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ayukawa.aus.org (ayukawa.aus.org [199.166.246.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA43714C14 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lh@aus.org) Received: from PHOENIX.ZER0.NET (lh@PHOENIX.ZER0.NET [199.166.246.189]) by ayukawa.aus.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25418 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907171321.JAA25418@ayukawa.aus.org> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-10 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199907171302.JAA24218@arutam.inch.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: lh@aus.org From: Luke To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Borland considering UNIX ports Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On the Unix distribution I marked Other and wrote "FreeBSD running >Linux apps) :-) >Although it would be nice if they port to FreeBSD/BSD too it would be >great even if they just do the Linux as long as one can run it under >FreeBSD. I went there too , and did the same thing. I wonder if it will ever get to the point where I have so many linux apps running that I may as well run linux :) Luke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 8:51:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9964914C24 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-79-17.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.79.17]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20992; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA07221; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:54:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199907171554.LAA07221@bellsouth.net> To: "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Borland considering UNIX ports In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:03:35 EDT." <199907171302.JAA24218@arutam.inch.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:54:19 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On the Unix distribution I marked Other and wrote "FreeBSD running > Linux apps) :-) I put FreeBSD in every blank space I could ;-> > Although it would be nice if they port to FreeBSD/BSD too it would be > great even if they just do the Linux as long as one can run it under >FreeBSD. To me, emulation would not be acceptable for a compiler/ide suite. I'd also rather see the generated programs be native ones. Cross- development for various platforms would be an even better goal. > Many companies, justly so, don't like the idea of too many platforms. > Support becomes more expensive. Bah! :-) Perhaps this is a justifiable concern when one is thinking about Windows and Macintosh GUI applications but Linux and FreeBSD are using the same GUI as well as very similar OS interface API's. In the six years I developed embedded x86 using Borland compilers not even *once* did I ask them for support. I believe the support issues are mostly strawmen. Having worked with Borland's management before, I also doubt they'll gain clue. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 9:22: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2915714C80 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19245; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019220; Sat Jul 17 09:21:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12578; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907171621.JAA12578@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:21:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000101becfec$605cd280$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Jul 16, 99 05:36:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was under the impression that disk I/O was still blocking in FreeBSD's > libc_r. I was also under the impression that the resolver was blocking. > > If disk I/O really is non-blocking, I would expect the performance to > suffer because thread context switches in a user-space threads > implementation are generally more expensive than a kernel thread blocking on > I/O. Why is this? In a kernel threads implementation, each thread competes as a seperate process with all other kernel threads. A "process" is a group of one or more kernel threads. For all legacy code ("processes"), one kernel thread competes with all other kernel threads, including those in threaded programs ("multithreaded processes") based on the number of processes out there. For the sake of avoiding confusion, we should talk about the competition for quantum in terms of "Kernel Schedulable Entities" or KSE's. For a given program which is backed by multiple KSE's, there is no guarantess of affinity or adjacency. Any attempt to ensure affinity in blocking operations could result in starvation for other KSE's -- that is, KSE's are difficult to group, such that when you go from one KSE to another in the kernel scheduler, as a result of sleeping, instead of an involuntary context switch, the chance that you are going to have to do a full address map and register reload ("context switch between ''processes''") is equal to: total KSE's : (total KSE's - process KSE's) In other words, context switch overhead is generally equal to the same overhead as if you were running multiple processes instead of multiple KSE's per process. Furthermore, even if you were to do preferential scheduling KSE's from a single group (equivalent to a thread group in a proces, or a "multithreaded process"), and you used a "quantum counting" technique to ensure against starvation of other KSE's, such that if the scheduler activation was the result of a sleep rather than a quantum clock tick ("LBOLT"), you will, statitically, achieve only a best case average utilization of quantum/2 before a context switch that requires a full task switch. Comparatively, using a user space scheduler, the quantum is fully utilized (a factor of two improvement in reduction of context switch overhead), and the context switch between threads is the same as the best case for kernel threads, which is a register reload. One need only apply this same metric to cache busting, TLB shootdown, processor migration, and other dangers, and a strong picture favoring user space threading appears. Your claim that user space threads are definitionally more expensive than kernel space threads is verifiably false. Further, in the very best possible case, we see that overhead (not including protection domain crossing) for kernel threads only begins to approach user space theads as: (total KSE's - process KSE's) / total KSE's approaches 1. This approach is asymptotic at best, since we have the minimum system support daemons in the process queue cometing for quantum. > User-space threads are not inherently bad, they just have different > tradeoffs than kernel threads. Yes. Better tradeoffs. > > Yes. The NFS code can return "EWOULDBLOCK", if the operation would > > block. > > But does libc_r do this? As I see it, there are two answers, and both are > at least somewhat bad: > > 1) Yes. Which means that a significant fraction of disk I/O will > require extra user-space thread context switches. > > 2) No. Which means that slow I/O will stall all the threads. Conversion does not have to be to blocking calls on non-blocking descriptors. It can be to non-blocking calls on descriptors. No, this is not currently done, but the effect of #1 is not so poor as you would think; it is an additional overhead of 6 uS, if the data is not in cache, and an additional overhead of 0 uS, if it is. Smart programmers will organize their code to trigger predictive read-ahead so that the data will be in cache. As the "NULL" system call latency degreases, so does the overhead. Compare this to a: (total KSE's - process KSE's) / total KSE's * 100 percent risk of taking a fll context switch overhead in the kernel case, and the management overhead of ensuring that there are no user space threads in ready-to-run state that are stalled for lack of kernel space threads to back them, the additional scheduler overhead in the more complex scheme, and the assymetric CPU availability associated with differential CPU load when you attempt to implement CPU affinity. > > No. Both cases should result in an EWOULDBLOCK and a threads context > > switch, pending the data being present to be read, since non-blocking > > I/O is being substituted. > > Which means unneccesary context switches, when simply waiting > would be better. Threads context switches, not process context switches. > The problem is, if you want to avoid the occasional long delay, you have to > accept extra context switches all the time. Not necessarily the worst thing > in the world, but it's a tradeoff. You are confusing "pool retention time" (latency) with stalling. The problem you are not addressing is that latency merely implies that the I/O requests are interleaved, and satisfied after some delay, while allowing multiple outstanding requests. Stalling, on the other hand, means that no scheduled work is occurring. You aren't stalled if you are waiting for a scheduled DMA to complete, only if you are waiting to schedule a DMA. > > > I see them all the time. 'gethostbyname' is a good example. > > > > Are you forcing the use of TCP for this? This results in a spin > > loop. > > > > Please obtain and compile the libresolver from bind 8.x, which is > > reentrant, and link it before you link libc_r. > > I am calling 'gethostbyname'. Is that wrong? Yes. > Bind's license, unfortunately, prohibits me from linking to it. Once I > wrote my own resolver library, this problem goes away. But not everyone can > spend the time to do that to optimize for a platform. It's the same license on the 4.x resolver in libc. I don't see how you are prevented from linking with one, but not the other. The ISC wrote (and licensed) both. > That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a painful tradeoff. What you > want is a thread to block if the I/O takes too long. You don't have that > choice. If a kernel thread sleeps, for any reason, you have, with a high statistical rpobability, lost your quantum and taken a full context switch overhead. Disk wait queue completions do not run in the context of the kernel threads making the call, they run at interrupt level. > > If it's "not that bad", then it won't take 10 years to fix. > > Yes, I've been waiting for fixes in FreeBSD's threads implementation for > more than a year now. The vast majority of them have taken place, and I'm > fairly happy with the current state of FreeBSD's threads support. I can't speak for the FreeBSD developement process. > However, it is really not as good as the threads support on many other > operating systems, including NT. If you need stellar threads support, > FreeBSD is not the operating system you probably want to use. I still think this is based on a false premise. > At the current rate of progress though, this could change in a few months. Well, that's something, I suppose. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 9:31: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C5714C47 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:31:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18396; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:46:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd018332; Sat Jul 17 09:46:28 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13035; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:29:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907171629.JAA13035@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Known MMAP() race conditions ... ? To: lh@aus.org Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:29:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199907162359.TAA23739@ayukawa.aus.org> from "Luke" at Jul 16, 99 07:58:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Yes. And you'll notice that it runs just fine on FreeBSD. So I guess > >FreeBSD does have working threads. > > I dont even know what threads are but mysql on 3.2-release doesnt > work with -lc_r unless you get a different one, like from 3.1 or -current. 3.2-release tried to evolve the Draft 4 pthreads toward Draft 10. Unfortunately, they started by adding the manifest constant everyone uses in order to distinguish Draft 4 by its absence. 8-(. I specifically except 3.2-release from this discussion. I'm sure there are particular Linux releases that people would do the same for, given the libc/glibc/libc2 wars... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 9:54:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E7014BF8 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29854; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:53:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990717104603.00cc3df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:48:28 -0600 To: "Francisco Reyes" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Borland considering UNIX ports In-Reply-To: <199907171302.JAA24218@arutam.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:03 AM 7/17/99 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: >On the Unix distribution I marked Other and wrote "FreeBSD running >Linux apps) :-) > > > >Comment on the form mentioned above and maybe it'll happen. > >Although it would be nice if they port to FreeBSD/BSD too it would be >great even if they just do the Linux as long as one can run it under >FreeBSD. One nice thing about Borland is that they tend to publish source for their RTLs and let you recompile them. In theory, at least, one could redo the RTLs to make native FreeBSD syscalls. Of course, Borland would have to recompile its product to make it truly native. Again, whether they do this would depend upon demand.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 10:20:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0401414E01 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id TAA14415; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:19:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id TAA29792; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990717193421.17746@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:34:21 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic References: <199907161645.MAA00533@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 10:54:37AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > This sort of attitude is PRECISELY why FreeBSD is so far behind Linux. Define far. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 10:21:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA99514DC7 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id TAA14438; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:20:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id TAA29803; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:35:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990717193528.06562@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:35:28 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic References: <199907161754.MAA13521@free.pcs> <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 11:58:39AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > And they say, "What position do you hold in the organization? > Are you signing this NDA on behalf of yourself or on behalf > of the entire organization? If you're working on your own, > how do we know that the organization will accept your work? > How do you know that they won't leak material covered by the > NDA?" > > They'd be right to ask these questions. You should be working for Intel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 12:33: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E19014F68 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00915; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990717133115.04549460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:32:12 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990717193528.06562@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost> <199907161754.MAA13521@free.pcs> <4.2.0.58.19990716115630.047b7ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 PM 7/17/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > > > And they say, "What position do you hold in the organization? > > Are you signing this NDA on behalf of yourself or on behalf > > of the entire organization? If you're working on your own, > > how do we know that the organization will accept your work? > > How do you know that they won't leak material covered by the > > NDA?" > > > > They'd be right to ask these questions. > > You should be working for Intel. I choose not to work for companies like Intel precisely because their situation makes it necessary for them to ask such questions. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 12:33: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A1B14F59 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00912; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990717132934.04552310@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:30:59 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic Cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990717193421.17746@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> <199907161645.MAA00533@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:34 PM 7/17/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Define far. A long, long way to run. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 16:32: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E456314FCF for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (modem00.masternet.it [194.184.65.10]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11327 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:16:21 GMT (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-ID: <37910EDA.C168A103@giovannelli.it> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:16:42 +0200 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is possible that our bootblock ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ... that is installed by boot0cfg is not able to boot Linux partition, even if they are corrected identified ? It works only with Linux partition installed by Debian (2.1)... All the other (Redhat 5.2, 6.0 ; Suse 6.1, turbolinux, Mandrake, Slackware etc etc ) fails to boot and appears the prompt F? ... everything else (FreeBSD or windows) boot correctly... Just curious ... -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 16:50:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from venus.GAIANET.NET (venus.GAIANET.NET [207.211.200.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD3C14F3A for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by venus.GAIANET.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18904; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:49:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: Karl Pielorz Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, tim@storm.digital-rain.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: poor ethernet performance? In-Reply-To: <37911557.8B0A5293@tdx.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Jul 1999, Karl Pielorz wrote: > > Testing after the dust has settled and while it is in use is > > different since conditions do change. The testers only tests for > > continuity, not the impedance or any other electrical properties of the > > cable. > > The decent testers (such as a professional cable installing friend of mine > uses) do a full range of tests, at both 10Mbs and 100Mbs speed, including > cross talk, attenuation + a host of other things. The customers gets a > certificate _per_ connection, listing all the details... The decent testers > use proper TDR techniques to do a full range of testing, more than just "The > wires conduct, and their in the right order at both ends" :-) Heh, must be one of those $4000 Fluke testers or something. I mean cables should be tested prior to installing but you don't actually know the characteristics while the cable is in real use is what I'm saying. :-) > > > Fastest I've seen on my setup (doing anything useful) is around 9Mb/sec going > > > from my WinNT box (with Intel Pro 100B) to my FreeBSD -current box (also with > > > Pro 100B). > > > > Hmmm, how large of a file do you have to transfer to see the max > > speed? > > Typically around 2Gb's... I do a lot of DVR work, so I always have large files > kicking around :-) I could use one of those... =) > > What about from FreeBSD to FreeBSD? =) > > Don't have two boxes to test from... I've toyed with replacing my current NT > install with FreeBSD, I guess I just love Delphi too much :-) [hence need > Win32 :)] + The company database runs only under Win32 so far... Heh. Wouldn't it be nice if Delphi was available for FreeBSD or binary compable with something FreeBSD emulates? :-) > This is getting off-topic for -hackers - if you want to chat we should either > move it somewhere more appropriate - or personal replies only :-) That's a good idea... That's why it's been moved to -chat in this reply =) Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 16:56:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from caladan.tdx.co.uk (caladan.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0A314C32 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Received: from tdx.co.uk (lorca-tx.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.242]) by caladan.tdx.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Kp) with ESMTP id AAA02538; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:56:15 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <379117F6.5836AD92@tdx.co.uk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:55:34 +0100 From: Karl Pielorz Organization: TDX - The Digital eXchange X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vincent Poy Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: poor ethernet performance? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Vincent Poy wrote: > > Heh, must be one of those $4000 Fluke testers or something. I > mean cables should be tested prior to installing but you don't actually > know the characteristics while the cable is in real use is what I'm > saying. :-) It is - with it's remote end as well... Extreemly expensive, but very 'cool'... And very precise :) You can't easily test the cable prior to installing - it normally comes in 300ft boxes! - But you can (and should) test it after it's been installed, and after you've followed the CAT-5 guidelines re. corners, luminaire avoidance etc :) > > > > > > Hmmm, how large of a file do you have to transfer to see the max > > > speed? > > > > Typically around 2Gb's... I do a lot of DVR work, so I always have large files > > kicking around :-) > > I could use one of those... =) A 2gb file? - You could always FTP it from here? > Heh. Wouldn't it be nice if Delphi was available for FreeBSD or > binary compable with something FreeBSD emulates? :-) Yes, it would!... We (as in Unix) have the free Pascal compiler, which supports most (if not all) of the Sysutils unit, but it's a long way from being able to run on the bosses Windows desktop :-) Not that the boss is best friends with Windows at the moment (it crashes his machine about twice a day, and that's even under NT :-) >> This is getting off-topic for -hackers - if you want to chat we should either >> move it somewhere more appropriate - or personal replies only :-) > That's a good idea... That's why it's been moved to -chat in this > reply =) So I noticed... :-) Chat doesn't get used very often (not often enough some might say from some of the threads in -hackers/-current recently...) I often forget I'm subscribed at all :) -Kp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 17: 2: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from venus.GAIANET.NET (venus.GAIANET.NET [207.211.200.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8563D14C32 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by venus.GAIANET.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18980; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:00:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: Karl Pielorz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: poor ethernet performance? In-Reply-To: <379117F6.5836AD92@tdx.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Jul 1999, Karl Pielorz wrote: > Vincent Poy wrote: > > > > Heh, must be one of those $4000 Fluke testers or something. I > > mean cables should be tested prior to installing but you don't actually > > know the characteristics while the cable is in real use is what I'm > > saying. :-) > > It is - with it's remote end as well... Extreemly expensive, but very > 'cool'... And very precise :) It better for that kind of price =) > You can't easily test the cable prior to installing - it normally comes in > 300ft boxes! - But you can (and should) test it after it's been installed, and > after you've followed the CAT-5 guidelines re. corners, luminaire avoidance > etc :) I meant real use as i.e. all the workstations are connected and the cable is transfering data. Not just during the time period of installing but throughout the use of the cables life. > > > > Hmmm, how large of a file do you have to transfer to see the max > > > > speed? > > > > > > Typically around 2Gb's... I do a lot of DVR work, so I always have large files > > > kicking around :-) > > > > I could use one of those... =) > > A 2gb file? - You could always FTP it from here? Hehe, wonder how long that will take > > Heh. Wouldn't it be nice if Delphi was available for FreeBSD or > > binary compable with something FreeBSD emulates? :-) > > Yes, it would!... We (as in Unix) have the free Pascal compiler, which > supports most (if not all) of the Sysutils unit, but it's a long way from > being able to run on the bosses Windows desktop :-) Hehe, maybe some convincing would work :-) > Not that the boss is best friends with Windows at the moment (it crashes his > machine about twice a day, and that's even under NT :-) Haha, I'm sure he's a frequent audience of the Blue Screen of Death too :-) > >> This is getting off-topic for -hackers - if you want to chat we should either > >> move it somewhere more appropriate - or personal replies only :-) > > That's a good idea... That's why it's been moved to -chat in this > > reply =) > > So I noticed... :-) Chat doesn't get used very often (not often enough some > might say from some of the threads in -hackers/-current recently...) I often > forget I'm subscribed at all :) Me too but I guess it's good to put good use of it... :) Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 17:16:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525F814C32 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id CAA18376; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:13:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id CAA30458; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:28:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990718022800.31487@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:28:00 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic References: <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> <199907161645.MAA00533@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990716104953.045e4aa0@localhost> <19990717193421.17746@ns.int.ftf.net> <4.2.0.58.19990717132934.04552310@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990717132934.04552310@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 01:30:59PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 07:34 PM 7/17/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > Define far. > > A long, long way to run. Vagueness won't get you anywhere. Define far. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 17:17:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BF214C32 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA02126; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907180014.UAA02126@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Chris Silva" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Another slogan? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:02:51 -0500, Chris Silva wrote: >Hello , > >How do you all feel about this for a slogan: >FreeBSD: You ain't seen nuthin' yet! I feel this was best sent to chat. :-) I also think it doesn't tie up to FreeBSD. In other words something like "FreeBSD The power to serve" ties up FreeBSD to performance. The one you mention has nothing which ties it up to FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 17:38:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 196-31-98-23.iafrica.com (196-31-98-23.iafrica.com [196.31.98.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4CC14F7F for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rnordier@nordier.com) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by ceia.nordier.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id CAA13086; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:35:42 +0200 (SAST) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199907180035.CAA13086@ceia.nordier.com> Subject: Re: Is possible that our bootblock ... In-Reply-To: <37910EDA.C168A103@giovannelli.it> from Gianmarco Giovannelli at "Jul 18, 1999 01:16:42 am" To: gmarco@giovannelli.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:35:39 +0200 (SAST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ... that is installed by boot0cfg is not able to boot Linux partition, > even if they are corrected identified ? At least RedHat has taken to installing Linux in extended DOS partitions by default. (I've no idea about other distributions.) Unless you're going to rely on LILO or some other non-standard boot manager, you don't want to do this for two reasons: o Linux has no business being in an extended DOS partition in the first place. o Only primary partitions are startable (bootable). However, you can override this and ensure that a primary partition is used. If that is done, boot0 boots RH 5.2 fine. > It works only with Linux partition installed by Debian (2.1)... All > the other (Redhat 5.2, 6.0 ; Suse 6.1, turbolinux, Mandrake, Slackware > etc etc ) fails to boot and appears the prompt F? ... everything else > (FreeBSD or windows) boot correctly... If you are getting a F? prompt, you're using BootEasy not boot0. -- Robert Nordier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 20:35:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3885314C37 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23535; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:33:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id WAA21241; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:33:19 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id WAA18417; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:33:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:33:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199907180333.WAA18417@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >At 07:34 PM 7/17/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > Define far. > >A long, long way to run. Last time I checked the lyrics, that definition was for "Fa", not "far". -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 21:24:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3365014D2B for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:24:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03726; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990717222117.044c7cf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:22:04 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64: Back on topic In-Reply-To: <199907180333.WAA18417@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:33 PM 7/17/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >In article you write: > >At 07:34 PM 7/17/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > > > Define far. > > > >A long, long way to run. > >Last time I checked the lyrics, that definition was for "Fa", not "far". If ya frum Noo Yawk, it's da same ting. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 21:31: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C717114C37 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:31:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem29.masternet.it [194.184.65.39]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA70819 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 06:29:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990718063321.01ef26f0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 06:33:50 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Is possible that our bootblock ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18/07/99, you wrote: >> ... that is installed by boot0cfg is not able to boot Linux partition, >> even if they are corrected identified ? > >At least RedHat has taken to installing Linux in extended DOS partitions >by default. (I've no idea about other distributions.) Unless you're >going to rely on LILO or some other non-standard boot manager, you don't >want to do this for two reasons: > > o Linux has no business being in an extended DOS partition in the > first place. > > o Only primary partitions are startable (bootable). > >However, you can override this and ensure that a primary partition is >used. If that is done, boot0 boots RH 5.2 fine. Uhm, firts of all thanks for your kind reply... Btw : 1) Linux partitions are primary: type 131 and 130 (The hd has 4 primary partitions: FreeBSD , Windows, Linux Native, Linux Swap) 2) I used the same ones for every Linux installation Debian, Suse, Mandrake, Slackware... But the only one able to reboot remains debian... >> It works only with Linux partition installed by Debian (2.1)... All >> the other (Redhat 5.2, 6.0 ; Suse 6.1, turbolinux, Mandrake, Slackware >> etc etc ) fails to boot and appears the prompt F? ... everything else >> (FreeBSD or windows) boot correctly... > >If you are getting a F? prompt, you're using BootEasy not boot0. This is funny and now I am confused ... This was happening on my seaside box that hadn't a modem so I couldn't use email from there... (Now I have bought it and in a few hours I'll come back there and install it :-) I have installed bootblock by /stand/sysinstall, now things are: 1) I really don't remember well if it is the real shape of the prompt.... 2) sysinstall of 3.2-RELEASE don't install boot0 but booteasy ..... But it is easier I am wrong in remembering the prompt (option 1) :-) but I am not wrong in the fact that are all primary partitions, otherwise it doesn't display something like this : F1: ??? F2: FreeBSD F3: Linux F4: Linux I'll let you know... Thanks again for your attention... P.s. I don't like Linux, these test are only to know "enemy" better :-) P.P.s What about boot0 to recognize also fat32 partitions ?? and what about to change the 130 to Linux Swap ??? Yes I know the space is not so big in mbr, but can find a little deleting smething else ??? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 17 22:50:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from venus.GAIANET.NET (venus.GAIANET.NET [207.211.200.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5DF14DDE; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:50:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by venus.GAIANET.NET (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20287; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: Matthew Dillon , sthaug@nethelp.no, tim@storm.digital-rain.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: poor ethernet performance? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Jul 1999, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > > : Hmmm, how did you do the measurement and how big of a file does it > > :need? > > : > > : With a 122MByte file, it only does 2644Kbytes/sec. This is > > :between two Pentium II 450 machines with Intel Pro100+ NICs. > > > > 2.6 MB/sec is what I would expect if you were running the test > > over an ssh link on a fast cpu - the encryption eats a lot of cpu. But > > a normal rcp or ftp or data transfer can easily do 9-10 MBytes/sec. > > Just to refute that... I get almost 2Mb/s over lo0 with ssh. This is > with standard compression/decompression and idea encryption/decryption. > Since this has to run both ends, my K6-2 350 is really doing 4Mb/s or > higher (take into account lo0 overhead.) I'd expect a P6 (II, whatever) > running at at 450 to beat that, by around 15%. Hmmm, I can understand getting 2Mb/s over ssh but I never figured out how to transfer files using ssh yet. It's just that with ftp, file transfers should be a lot quicker than that between 100Mbps Full Duplex FreeBSD machines. Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message