From owner-freebsd-announce Sun May 21 22:14:47 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id WAA11563 for announce-outgoing; Sun, 21 May 1995 22:14:47 -0700 Received: from violet.berkeley.edu (violet.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.22]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA11555 for ; Sun, 21 May 1995 22:14:46 -0700 Received: by violet.berkeley.edu (8.6.10/1.33r) id WAA24700; Sun, 21 May 1995 22:14:45 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 22:14:45 -0700 From: jkh@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard) Message-Id: <199505220514.WAA24700@violet.berkeley.edu> Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Subject: Buslogic PCI controllers _no longer recommended_ by FreeBSD team Organization: University of California, Berkeley Apparently-To: announce@FreeBSD.org Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In the past, I've publically endorsed Buslogic's products highly in these newsgroups and have had only the best things to say about their tech support. They were always more than cooperative in their support for free operating systems, providing technical details on their products when requested and always being quick to send PROM upgrades to customers with a simple phone call. Well, it greatly saddens me to say that things have clearly taken a turn for the worse at Buslogic. Not only have they introduced a number of serious bugs in their latest firmware for the Bt946, but their tech support has become essentially non-existent. Multiple phone calls from numerous FreeBSD users (including several on the core team) have gone unanswered, and hold times of up to an hour are not uncommon (after which we've always hung up, so it's uncertain as to whether they'd have simply left us there all day :-). This is not just an anomaly in their phone system, as multiple messages left with tech support and the central operator have also gone completely unreturned. It is therefore incumbent upon me to withdraw my previous endorsement of Buslogic and recommend instead that users rely on the Adaptec 2940 or NCR PCI cards, both of which are well supported in FreeBSD 2.0-950412-SNAP and later. Perhaps Buslogic will turn this around in the future, and if so I certainly would welcome their return to "most favored controller status", but until that comes to pass I must regretfully recommend to our users that they avoid Buslogic products for any FreeBSD (or, for that matter, any other operating system) configuration. Jordan From owner-freebsd-announce Mon May 22 09:35:06 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id JAA27798 for announce-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 1995 09:35:06 -0700 Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA27792 ; Mon, 22 May 1995 09:35:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.cdrom.com: Host localhost.cdrom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: announce@FreeBSD.org cc: pds@FreeBSD.org Subject: Buslogic - a clarification. Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 09:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: <27791.801160505@freefall.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Several people have pointed out to me that my previous message regarding the problems people have been having with Buslogic may have been confusing to our users, coming as it did almost on the tails of my previous endorsement of their product several weeks ago, and one possibly misconstrued as a position from which there's no return. Please allow me to clarify this, and also state for the record that the previous was only a description of our recent experiences and nothing more. I've no desire to get into a war with Buslogic, and would in fact be most receptive to any attempt on their part to clarify some of the problems we've been having with their technical support. We have been trying for some time to get action on this and have been most unhappy with our lack of success. We'd like to fix the problem and return to a mutually agreeable state of affairs, not escalate this. My last endorsement of Buslogic just several weeks ago was sent just before these reports started to trickle in, with a number of people only informing me after their own unsucessful efforts to contact Buslogic tech support had gone on for some time. I also felt compelled to post my message given my traditionally strong endorsement of Buslogic, a stance I've taken from almost the very beginning of this project. I've always complimented their foresight in making their entire controller line, from ISA to PCI, software compatible with our driver, thus greatly minimizing the amount of work we've had to do to support their product, and I have a Buslogic controller in my own machine (with the older firmware) which works flawlessly. Buslogic has also traditionally been very open with us software developers, in marked contrast with some other manufacturers I won't mention, and this was also highly appreciated. If someone from the company would care to contact me about these latest troubles we've been having I'd be very happy to discuss it, hopefully bringing this to a successful conclusion for all concerned. All attempts at contacting their tech support have failed, thus leading me to the final (and sad) step of withdrawing my endorsement in order to save my own reputation. I make or imply no other statements regarding Buslogic's quality of service and am simply relating the recent experiences of myself and many others. Should the situation change, I'll be happy to bring everyone up to date on those changes. Jordan From owner-freebsd-announce Wed May 24 08:53:49 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id IAA14641 for announce-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 08:53:49 -0700 Received: from fore.com (relay.fore.com [169.144.1.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id IAA14629 ; Wed, 24 May 1995 08:53:46 -0700 Received: from dolphin (dolphin.fore.com [169.144.1.16]) by fore.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA05428; Wed, 24 May 1995 11:52:22 -0400 Received: from loach.fore.com by dolphin (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27037; Wed, 24 May 95 11:53:12 EDT Received: from lamprey by loach.fore.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25134; Wed, 24 May 95 11:53:11 EDT Message-Id: <9505241553.AA25134@loach.fore.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org Cc: pss@fore.com Subject: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 11:53:10 -0400 From: Rajesh Vaidheeswarran Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I had originally mentioned this only to 2 people, which was Jordan K. Hubbard and Paul Henning-Kemp, but since I have received a lot of queries on this, I thought I might as well post it on the FreeBSD announce groups. Included below is a posting done on the Linux-atm mailing group, by Pragnesh Sampat. I have just adapted for FreeBSD. RV -------------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------- Note: This posting is somewhat commercial in nature. FORE Systems is interested in enabling an ATM driver for FreeBSD. For the unfamiliar, FORE Systems supports the widest range of platforms/busses (EISA, PCI relevant to the PCs for example) for ATM adapters for various standard physical media (OC3, Taxi, UTP). Please see below for more information about the company and for contact information. Towards this end we are willing to make the ATM Adaptation Layer Interface (AALI) specification available to the public via various information servers (ftp, www etc.). 200 series adapter cards have an i960 processor to do the SAR. This is done by the firmware which is shipped with the software that goes with the adapter. The firmware is normally downloaded during boot and is mostly transparent to the user. ESA-200PC would come with the right firmware to run on a PC. The AALI is an interface to the firmware and will be needed for driver development if a 200 series adapter will be used. It would something like: IP | Driver | firmware | 200 series The AALI is available from: ftp.fore.com:/pub/docs/ aali.readme aali.ps --Pragnesh FORE Systems, Inc. Company and Contact Information: FORE Systems is the worldwide leader in the design, development, manufacture, and sale of high performance local area networking products based on ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode) technology. FORE offers the most comprehensive ATM LAN product line available today including ForeRunner switches, adapter cards, LAN access products, and video adapters, ForeThought internetworking software, and ForeView network management software. FORE has delivered ATM solutions to over 500 customers including Fortune 500 companies, telecommunications service providers, government agencies, research institutions, and universities. FORE Systems' headquarters are located at 174 Thorn Hill Road, Warrendale, Pennsylvania 15086. email: info@fore.com Phone: (412) 772-6600 Fax : (412) 772-6500 -------------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-announce Wed May 24 13:30:26 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id NAA22889 for announce-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:30:26 -0700 Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA22883 ; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:30:23 -0700 Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA23457; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:29:49 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Message-Id: <199505242029.NAA23457@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: rv@fore.com (Rajesh Vaidheeswarran) Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 13:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org, pss@fore.com In-Reply-To: <9505241553.AA25134@loach.fore.com> from "Rajesh Vaidheeswarran" at May 24, 95 11:53:10 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3037 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I asked Fore systems about this.. (4 days ago) their response email (unfortunatly deleted) said we would have to pay (I think) $10,000 (or was it 20?) and sign an NDA. I wish they'd make up their mind! Poul and I have an ATM network with FORE aystems on it we could test against, but I doubt we're going to fork over 10K for it.. julian > > > I had originally mentioned this only to 2 people, which was Jordan > K. Hubbard and Paul Henning-Kemp, but since I have received a lot of > queries on this, I thought I might as well post it on the FreeBSD announce > groups. > > Included below is a posting done on the Linux-atm mailing group, by > Pragnesh Sampat. I have just adapted for FreeBSD. > > RV > > -------------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------- > Note: This posting is somewhat commercial in nature. > > FORE Systems is interested in enabling an ATM driver for FreeBSD. > > For the unfamiliar, FORE Systems supports the widest range of > platforms/busses (EISA, PCI relevant to the PCs for example) for ATM > adapters for various standard physical media (OC3, Taxi, UTP). Please see > below for more information about the company and for contact information. > > Towards this end we are willing to make the ATM Adaptation Layer Interface > (AALI) specification available to the public via various information > servers (ftp, www etc.). > > 200 series adapter cards have an i960 processor to do the SAR. This is > done by the firmware which is shipped with the software that goes with the > adapter. The firmware is normally downloaded during boot and is mostly > transparent to the user. ESA-200PC would come with the right firmware to > run on a PC. The AALI is an interface to the firmware and will be needed > for driver development if a 200 series adapter will be used. > > It would something like: > > > IP > | > Driver > | > firmware > | > 200 series > > > The AALI is available from: > > ftp.fore.com:/pub/docs/ > > aali.readme > aali.ps > > > --Pragnesh > > FORE Systems, Inc. > > Company and Contact Information: > > FORE Systems is the worldwide leader in the design, development, > manufacture, and sale of high performance local area networking products > based on ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode) technology. FORE offers the most > comprehensive ATM LAN product line available today including ForeRunner > switches, adapter cards, LAN access products, and video adapters, > ForeThought internetworking software, and ForeView network management > software. FORE has delivered ATM solutions to over 500 customers including > Fortune 500 companies, telecommunications service providers, government > agencies, research institutions, and universities. FORE Systems' > headquarters are located at 174 Thorn Hill Road, Warrendale, Pennsylvania > 15086. > > email: info@fore.com > Phone: (412) 772-6600 > Fax : (412) 772-6500 > > -------------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > From owner-freebsd-announce Wed May 24 13:36:34 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id NAA23165 for announce-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:36:34 -0700 Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA23153 ; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:36:31 -0700 Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA23505; Wed, 24 May 1995 13:35:55 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Message-Id: <199505242035.NAA23505@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: rv@fore.com (Rajesh Vaidheeswarran) Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 13:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org, pss@fore.com In-Reply-To: <9505241553.AA25134@loach.fore.com> from "Rajesh Vaidheeswarran" at May 24, 95 11:53:10 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 194 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That reminds me... some university (I just went to look for that mail too but can't find it) said they were developing a fore driver under NDA. I assume they know about this.... > > julian From owner-freebsd-announce Wed May 24 14:16:14 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id OAA24487 for announce-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 14:16:14 -0700 Received: from fore.com (relay.fore.com [169.144.1.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA24481 ; Wed, 24 May 1995 14:16:11 -0700 Received: from dolphin (dolphin.fore.com [169.144.1.16]) by fore.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA09077; Wed, 24 May 1995 17:14:09 -0400 Received: from loach.fore.com by dolphin (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01279; Wed, 24 May 95 17:14:58 EDT Received: from lamprey by loach.fore.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09336; Wed, 24 May 95 17:14:57 EDT Message-Id: <9505242114.AA09336@loach.fore.com> To: Julian Elischer Cc: rv@fore.com (Rajesh Vaidheeswarran), hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message from Julian Elischer of "Wed, 24 May 1995 13:29:49 PDT." <199505242029.NAA23457@ref.tfs.com> Reply-To: pss@fore.com X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 17:14:50 -0400 From: Pragnesh Sampat Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I asked Fore systems about this.. > (4 days ago) > their response email (unfortunatly deleted) said > we would have to pay (I think) $10,000 (or was it 20?) > and sign an NDA. > > I wish they'd make up their mind! > Poul and I have an ATM network with FORE aystems on it we could test against, > but I doubt we're going to fork over 10K for it.. > > julian The AALI is on our ftp server and a public document. It does *not* require an NDA. What Jim Carlin (the email you are referring to) meant was for a program we have for Independent Software Vendors (ISV). ISV is a package which has the source code to the driver in addition to the AALI (and some other stuff) and requires an NDA. There are vendors who buy this and port/build a driver for their platform etc. Jim just may not have been aware that the AALI is a publicly available document. I hope this is clear. Let me know otherwise. -Pragnesh > > > > > > I had originally mentioned this only to 2 people, which was Jordan > > K. Hubbard and Paul Henning-Kemp, but since I have received a lot of > > queries on this, I thought I might as well post it on the FreeBSD announce > > groups. > > > > Included below is a posting done on the Linux-atm mailing group, by > > Pragnesh Sampat. I have just adapted for FreeBSD. > > > > RV > > > > -------------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------- > > Note: This posting is somewhat commercial in nature. > > > > FORE Systems is interested in enabling an ATM driver for FreeBSD. > > > > For the unfamiliar, FORE Systems supports the widest range of > > platforms/busses (EISA, PCI relevant to the PCs for example) for ATM > > adapters for various standard physical media (OC3, Taxi, UTP). Please see > > below for more information about the company and for contact information. > > > > Towards this end we are willing to make the ATM Adaptation Layer Interface > > (AALI) specification available to the public via various information > > servers (ftp, www etc.). > > > > 200 series adapter cards have an i960 processor to do the SAR. This is > > done by the firmware which is shipped with the software that goes with the > > adapter. The firmware is normally downloaded during boot and is mostly > > transparent to the user. ESA-200PC would come with the right firmware to > > run on a PC. The AALI is an interface to the firmware and will be needed > > for driver development if a 200 series adapter will be used. > > > > It would something like: > > > > > > IP > > | > > Driver > > | > > firmware > > | > > 200 series > > > > > > The AALI is available from: > > > > ftp.fore.com:/pub/docs/ > > > > aali.readme > > aali.ps > > > > > > --Pragnesh > > > > FORE Systems, Inc. > > > > Company and Contact Information: > > > > FORE Systems is the worldwide leader in the design, development, > > manufacture, and sale of high performance local area networking products > > based on ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode) technology. FORE offers the most > > comprehensive ATM LAN product line available today including ForeRunner > > switches, adapter cards, LAN access products, and video adapters, > > ForeThought internetworking software, and ForeView network management > > software. FORE has delivered ATM solutions to over 500 customers including > > Fortune 500 companies, telecommunications service providers, government > > agencies, research institutions, and universities. FORE Systems' > > headquarters are located at 174 Thorn Hill Road, Warrendale, Pennsylvania > > 15086. > > > > email: info@fore.com > > Phone: (412) 772-6600 > > Fax : (412) 772-6500 > > > > -------------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-freebsd-announce Wed May 24 14:26:15 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id OAA24722 for announce-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 14:26:15 -0700 Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA24716 ; Wed, 24 May 1995 14:26:14 -0700 Received: (from phk@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA23757; Wed, 24 May 1995 14:25:40 -0700 From: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-Id: <199505242125.OAA23757@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: pss@fore.com Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 14:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9505242114.AA09336@loach.fore.com> from "Pragnesh Sampat" at May 24, 95 05:14:50 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1044 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I wish they'd make up their mind! > > Poul and I have an ATM network with FORE aystems on it we could test against, > > but I doubt we're going to fork over 10K for it.. > > > > julian > > The AALI is on our ftp server and a public document. It does *not* require > an NDA. What Jim Carlin (the email you are referring to) meant was for a > program we have for Independent Software Vendors (ISV). ISV is a package > which has the source code to the driver in addition to the AALI (and some > other stuff) and requires an NDA. There are vendors who buy this and > port/build a driver for their platform etc. Jim just may not have been > aware that the AALI is a publicly available document. I hope this is > clear. Let me know otherwise. So what exactly is this offer then ? Now >I'm< confused too. Oh and btw, what is the prices for your boards ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp -- TRW Financial Systems, Inc. 'All relevant people are pertinent' && 'All rude people are impertinent' => 'no rude people are relevant' From owner-freebsd-announce Wed May 24 19:06:06 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id TAA05772 for announce-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 19:06:06 -0700 Received: from fore.com (relay.fore.com [169.144.1.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id TAA05722 ; Wed, 24 May 1995 19:05:50 -0700 Received: from dolphin (dolphin.fore.com [169.144.1.16]) by fore.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id WAA10588; Wed, 24 May 1995 22:03:48 -0400 Received: from loach.fore.com by dolphin (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12317; Wed, 24 May 95 22:04:36 EDT Received: from lamprey by loach.fore.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12419; Wed, 24 May 95 22:04:36 EDT Message-Id: <9505250204.AA12419@loach.fore.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org, pss@fore.com Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message from Poul-Henning Kamp of "Wed, 24 May 1995 14:25:40 PDT." <199505242125.OAA23757@ref.tfs.com> Reply-To: pss@fore.com X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 22:04:35 -0400 From: Pragnesh Sampat Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I wish they'd make up their mind! > > > Poul and I have an ATM network with FORE aystems on it we could test > > > against, > > > but I doubt we're going to fork over 10K for it.. > > > > > > julian > > > > The AALI is on our ftp server and a public document. It does *not* require > > an NDA. What Jim Carlin (the email you are referring to) meant was for a > > program we have for Independent Software Vendors (ISV). ISV is a package > > which has the source code to the driver in addition to the AALI (and some > > other stuff) and requires an NDA. There are vendors who buy this and > > port/build a driver for their platform etc. Jim just may not have been > > aware that the AALI is a publicly available document. I hope this is > > clear. Let me know otherwise. > > So what exactly is this offer then ? > > Now >I'm< confused too. > The offer is that the document (AALI) which was not available earlier without an NDA is now available for interested people. This is the (only) change from previous situation. Of course, any driver/software developed using this in not under any licensing stuff or restriction as this is a public document. Unfortunately (as I realized now), I think this created some confusion as there was someone (referring to the message Bill Arbaugh of DSL Lab at upenn sent out) already developing a driver under ISV program for FreeBSD/NetBSD (with whatever restrictions it has regarding the sources etc.,). This is different from the above paragraph and has not changed at all. > Oh and btw, what is the prices for your boards ? > I really don't know. I mostly have rough ideas. It is best to contact "info@fore.com" to find out exactly. And, these things keep changing because of competetion, new hardware revisions etc., etc., so I am generally in a bad position to quote these prices. As a rough idea on the ESA-200PC board for example, the last I knew, it used to be (approximately) between $1600 and $1900 depending on the physical media. -Pragnesh From owner-freebsd-announce Thu May 25 12:47:48 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id MAA08291 for announce-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 1995 12:47:48 -0700 Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA08285 ; Thu, 25 May 1995 12:47:47 -0700 Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id MAA27592; Thu, 25 May 1995 12:45:27 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Message-Id: <199505251945.MAA27592@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: pss@fore.com Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 12:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Cc: phk@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9505250204.AA12419@loach.fore.com> from "Pragnesh Sampat" at May 24, 95 10:04:35 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1768 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > FreeBSD/NetBSD (with whatever restrictions it has regarding the sources > etc.,). This is different from the above paragraph and has not changed at > all. > > > Oh and btw, what is the prices for your boards ? > > > > I really don't know. I mostly have rough ideas. It is best to contact > "info@fore.com" to find out exactly. And, these things keep changing > because of competetion, new hardware revisions etc., etc., so I am > generally in a bad position to quote these prices. As a rough idea on the > ESA-200PC board for example, the last I knew, it used to be (approximately) > between $1600 and $1900 depending on the physical media. > this shows the stupidity of the situation... with cards this expensive, (a good $800 of this must be going to recoup development costs) they would ony need to sell 30 cards extra to get the money back from not SELLING the info at 20K$ considering that a normal installation might use 15 cards, that's just 2 installations. (and don't forget the installation would include a switch (probably an ASX200) more $$) If they just gave away the sources, and info EVERYbody would use FORE stuff by default, and their position as leaders would be strengthenned. They would also be able to be in 'control' of the standard in the same way that CSRG was the authorative voice on sockets and TCP/IP, Fore would be the Authoratative voice in ATM interface technology. Look at Hayes.. they are still in business purely because they have the prestige of having their name in EVERY OTHER modem manufacturer's manual.. If Fore were to make more information and sample drivers available, it woukd do the company a lot of GOOD, short and Long term.. as it is.. Fore will eventually fall prey to other companies. julian > > From owner-freebsd-announce Thu May 25 13:37:01 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id NAA10239 for announce-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 1995 13:37:01 -0700 Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA10231 ; Thu, 25 May 1995 13:36:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.cdrom.com: Host localhost.cdrom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: announce@FreeBSD.org cc: pds@FreeBSD.org Subject: Come and get 'em! New FreeBSD T-shirts available. Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 13:36:52 -0700 Message-ID: <10229.801434212@freefall.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Walnut Creek CDROM has just commissioned a new line of FreeBSD T-shirts, featuring Tatsumi Hosokawa's "daemon walking out of a CD" image in 2-color process. The text below the daemon simply says "FreeBSD", with a very tiny "Walnut Creek CDROM" in black letters below it. Since they did the shirts, and the lettering is very small, I don't think anyone will begrudge them the advertising! The shirts are available in blue or white and come in Large, eXtra Large and "child medium" (a 10-12 year old child) sizes. Cost is $11.95 per shirt, plus $5.00 shipping and handling within the U.S. and Canada and $9.00 shipping International. The shipping charge is per order, so if there's anything else you want to order from Walnut Creek (or would like to "batch" orders for more than one shirt) then I strongly recommend it as $21.00 (intl.) is a bit much to pay for a T-shirt! :-) You can order by check, credit card or (in the case of large institutions) purchase order from: Walnut Creek CDROM Suite D-899 4041 Pike Lane Concord CA 94520 USA 1 800 786-9907 (Toll Free Sales) +1 510 674-0783 (International Sales) +1 510 674-0821 (FAX) orders@cdrom.com (email orders) http://www.cdrom.com/ (WWW orders) We in the FreeBSD group don't make any money from T-shirt sales, I'm simply posting this as a public service. We're also not at all adverse to seeing more daemons on people's chests! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-announce Thu May 25 14:00:09 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id OAA14111 for announce-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 1995 14:00:09 -0700 Received: from localhost.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA13111 ; Thu, 25 May 1995 13:54:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.cdrom.com: Host localhost.cdrom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Julian Elischer cc: pss@fore.com, phk@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 95 12:45:27 PDT." <199505251945.MAA27592@ref.tfs.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 13:54:25 -0700 Message-ID: <13110.801435265@freefall.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Look at Hayes.. they are still in business purely because > they have the prestige of having their name in EVERY OTHER modem > manufacturer's manual.. Uhh.. I hate to be a dissenting voice, but Hayes filed for Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) protection over 2 months ago! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-announce Thu May 25 15:27:21 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id PAA19448 for announce-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:27:21 -0700 Received: from netcom14.netcom.com (hasty@netcom14.netcom.com [192.100.81.126]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id PAA19130 ; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:21:19 -0700 Received: by netcom14.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id PAA24375; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:20:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:20:28 -0700 From: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) Message-Id: <199505252220.PAA24375@netcom14.netcom.com> To: julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD Cc: announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, phk@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk No promises over here but I am going to try to remedy the ATM situation. Nor I am going to state who am I going to be dealing with . Enjoy, Amancio From owner-freebsd-announce Thu May 25 16:28:09 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id QAA21810 for announce-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 1995 16:28:09 -0700 Received: from cortex.physiol.su.oz.au (john@cortex.physiol.su.OZ.AU [129.78.139.131]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAB21802 for ; Thu, 25 May 1995 16:28:01 -0700 Received: (john@localhost) by cortex.physiol.su.oz.au (8.6.11/8.6.4) id JAA07648 for announce@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 26 May 1995 09:27:41 +1000 From: John (Watching the Wheels) Mackin Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 09:26:08 +1000 To: announce@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <13110.801435265@freefall.cdrom.com> Message-ID: <199505260926.7590.freebsd.badud@physiol.su.oz.au> X-Face: 39seV7n\`#asqOFdx#oj/Uz*lseO_1n9n7rQS;~ve\e`&Z},nU1+>0X^>mg&M.^X$[ez>{F k5[Ah<7xBWF-@-ru?& @4K4-b`ydd^`(n%Z{ Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This has long since ceased to constitute `announcement.' Can I ask people please to take the announce list out of the headers when continuing this discussion? Thanks. OK, John. From owner-freebsd-announce Thu May 25 18:19:20 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id SAA26822 for announce-outgoing; Thu, 25 May 1995 18:19:20 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA26641 ; Thu, 25 May 1995 18:15:00 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA00172 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Thu, 25 May 1995 19:58:18 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA18971; 25 May 95 19:57:36 CDT (Thu) Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id TAA18968; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:57:36 -0500 From: Peter da Silva Message-Id: <199505260057.TAA18968@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 19:57:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, phk@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <13110.801435265@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 25, 95 01:54:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 368 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Look at Hayes.. they are still in business purely because > > they have the prestige of having their name in EVERY OTHER modem > > manufacturer's manual.. > Uhh.. I hate to be a dissenting voice, but Hayes filed for Chapter 11 > (bankruptcy) protection over 2 months ago! :-) And given their track record, that's years longer than they had any right to expect. From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 03:08:39 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id DAA21757 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 03:08:39 -0700 Received: from alice.wonderland.org (alice.wonderland.org [193.195.141.1]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id DAA21739 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 03:08:12 -0700 Received: (peter@localhost) by alice.wonderland.org (8.6.9/8.6.5) id KAA02446; Fri, 26 May 1995 10:59:31 +0100 From: Peter Galbavy Message-Id: <199505260959.KAA02446@alice.wonderland.org> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: julian@ref.tfs.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 10:59:30 +0100 (BST) Cc: pss@fore.com, phk@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, announce@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199505251945.MAA27592@ref.tfs.com> from "Julian Elischer" at May 25, 95 12:45:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1547 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If they just gave away the sources, and info > EVERYbody would use FORE stuff by default, and their position > as leaders would be strengthenned. > They would also be able to be in 'control' of the standard > in the same way that CSRG was the authorative voice on sockets and TCP/IP, > Fore would be the Authoratative voice in ATM interface technology. > Look at Hayes.. they are still in business purely because > they have the prestige of having their name in EVERY OTHER modem > manufacturer's manual.. > > If Fore were to make more information and sample drivers available, > it woukd do the company a lot of GOOD, short and Long term.. > as it is.. Fore will eventually fall prey to other companies. BUT, charging for development information is the classic symptom of companies that do not want to be around in a few years. They want to recoupe their costs *now*, not later, over a number of products lifetimes. They have a management/financial structure that only sees as far as the next set of accounts. Just take a look around if you don't believe me. All companies that have given away their development information have done real well, whilst others that haven't could have done so much better. Then there are the companies like Adaptec, that got to much of a corporate ego when launching a new family of products... Regards -- Peter Galbavy work: peter@demon.net Wonderland rest: peter@wonderland.org play: http://www.wonderland.org/ "The 'net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 04:58:33 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id EAA23709 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 04:58:33 -0700 Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id EAA23663 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 04:55:17 -0700 Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.6.12/BSD4.4) id VAA07277; Fri, 26 May 1995 21:52:33 +1000 From: michael butler Message-Id: <199505261152.VAA07277@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 21:52:32 +1000 (EST) Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, phk@ref.tfs.com, rv@fore.com In-Reply-To: <199505252220.PAA24375@netcom14.netcom.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr" at May 25, 95 03:20:28 pm Reply-To: imb@scgt.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1256 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty Jr writes: > No promises over here but I am going to try to remedy the ATM situation. > Nor I am going to state who am I going to be dealing with . Much as I hate generalisations .. I would warn that ATM and IP apparently do not mix well in cases where good interactive response is critical, at least in my limited experience. I get better response over my own overworked 14k4 modem connection to the net than over a (university based) 2 megabit ATM link. Taking simple icmp echo (ping) as a guide to find out why, on my modem link I get round-trip times of ~600mS to the US .. over ATM, they start at 7 seconds and take some time before dropping to a more acceptable 160mS. When typing in a telnet session, this equates to .. leave the keyboard alone for any period greater than one or two seconds and you're back to that 7 second latency. It's unusable as currently implemented for anything but bulk-haulage of video and news. I don't know the unlying technical details but, based on this experience, I'm not entirely sure I want to. However, if this is an implementation specific problem, I would be very glad to hear how it might be resolved .. it's near impossible for me to do assignments by telecommuting these days :-( michael From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 09:10:53 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id JAA29164 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 09:10:53 -0700 Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA28997 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 09:07:15 -0700 Received: (from phk@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id JAA01495; Fri, 26 May 1995 09:06:06 -0700 From: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-Id: <199505261606.JAA01495@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: imb@scgt.oz.au Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 09:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hasty@netcom.com, julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, rv@fore.com In-Reply-To: <199505261152.VAA07277@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at May 26, 95 09:52:32 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 814 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > No promises over here but I am going to try to remedy the ATM situation. > > Nor I am going to state who am I going to be dealing with . > > Much as I hate generalisations .. I would warn that ATM and IP apparently do > not mix well in cases where good interactive response is critical, at least > in my limited experience. I get better response over my own overworked 14k4 > modem connection to the net than over a (university based) 2 megabit ATM > link. This is not a general problem with ATM, and I tend to say that it's because there are other users on the 2Mb ATM than you. It's certainly not an argument against ATM... -- Poul-Henning Kamp -- TRW Financial Systems, Inc. 'All relevant people are pertinent' && 'All rude people are impertinent' => 'no rude people are relevant' From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 11:55:17 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id LAA03482 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 11:55:17 -0700 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA03467 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 11:55:15 -0700 Received: from stratacom.strata.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyrkt06907; Fri, 26 May 1995 14:54:26 -0400 Received: from Strata.COM (kiwi.strata.com) by stratacom.strata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Gatekeeper.Strata.Com-950201) id AA11841; Fri, 26 May 95 11:54:25 PDT Received: from elm. by Strata.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/StrataCom-GCA-Kiwi-931007-1) id AA28283; Fri, 26 May 95 11:53:55 PDT Received: by elm. (5.65/SMI-4.1/StrataCom-GCA-DECClient-Local-931101) id AA22422; Fri, 26 May 1995 11:55:56 -0700 From: dnc@Strata.COM (David Cornejo) Message-Id: <9505261855.AA22422@elm.> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: phk@ref.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: imb@scgt.oz.au, hasty@netcom.com, julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, rv@fore.com In-Reply-To: <199505261606.JAA01495@ref.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at May 26, 95 09:06:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1241 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > No promises over here but I am going to try to remedy the ATM situation. > > > Nor I am going to state who am I going to be dealing with . > > > > Much as I hate generalisations .. I would warn that ATM and IP apparently do > > not mix well in cases where good interactive response is critical, at least > > in my limited experience. I get better response over my own overworked 14k4 > > modem connection to the net than over a (university based) 2 megabit ATM > > link. > > This is not a general problem with ATM, and I tend to say that it's > because there are other users on the 2Mb ATM than you. A well configured and not over-stressed ATM link should give you better performance than what you're getting. There are unfortunately a lot of problems that can really screw up IP over ATM. Check out the discard rate on cells - if one cell out of a frame gets discarded, then the whole frame is lost, so if your discard rate gets to be close to or more than the average number of cells per frame, then very little or nothing can get through. -- Dave Cornejo voice 1.408.494.2805 StrataCom, Inc. San Jose, California email: dnc@Strata.Com From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 16:10:39 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id MAA05531 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 12:42:14 -0700 Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA05510 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 12:41:59 -0700 Received: (from phk@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id MAA02404; Fri, 26 May 1995 12:39:10 -0700 From: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-Id: <199505261939.MAA02404@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 12:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Cc: imb@scgt.oz.au, hasty@netcom.com, julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, rv@fore.com In-Reply-To: <9505261926.AA27641@cs.weber.edu> from "Terry Lambert" at May 26, 95 01:26:03 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 454 Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Poul's right. It's an argument against bandwidth overcommit. > > Which is an argument against non-virtual circuit transports for virtual > circuit traffic. > > THAT's the argument against ATM. Well, check Fore's latest switch, it will dump entire AAL5 packets now... -- Poul-Henning Kamp -- TRW Financial Systems, Inc. 'All relevant people are pertinent' && 'All rude people are impertinent' => 'no rude people are relevant' From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 16:11:27 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id MAA05128 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 12:34:01 -0700 Received: from cs.weber.edu (cs.weber.edu [137.190.16.16]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA05099 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 12:33:42 -0700 Received: by cs.weber.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1.1) id AA27641; Fri, 26 May 95 13:26:03 MDT From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) Message-Id: <9505261926.AA27641@cs.weber.edu> Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD To: phk@ref.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 26 May 95 13:26:03 MDT Cc: imb@scgt.oz.au, hasty@netcom.com, julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, rv@fore.com In-Reply-To: <199505261606.JAA01495@ref.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at May 26, 95 09:06:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL52] Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Much as I hate generalisations .. I would warn that ATM and IP apparently do > > not mix well in cases where good interactive response is critical, at least > > in my limited experience. I get better response over my own overworked 14k4 > > modem connection to the net than over a (university based) 2 megabit ATM > > link. > > This is not a general problem with ATM, and I tend to say that it's > because there are other users on the 2Mb ATM than you. > > It's certainly not an argument against ATM... Poul's right. It's an argument against bandwidth overcommit. Which is an argument against non-virtual circuit transports for virtual circuit traffic. THAT's the argument against ATM. On the other hand, ATM and Frame Relay source quench doesn't really work well with TCP/IP, since TCP/IP doesn't recognize it as a valid congestion control mechanism. Arguably, the problem is in TCP/IP. Except it came first. Terry Lambert terry@cs.weber.edu --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-announce Fri May 26 22:40:41 1995 Return-Path: announce-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) id WAA12351 for announce-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 1995 22:40:41 -0700 Received: from cortex.physiol.su.oz.au (john@cortex.physiol.su.OZ.AU [129.78.139.131]) by freefall.cdrom.com (8.6.10/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA12271 ; Fri, 26 May 1995 22:34:28 -0700 Received: (john@localhost) by cortex.physiol.su.oz.au (8.6.11/8.6.4) id PAA03656; Sat, 27 May 1995 15:34:17 +1000 Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 15:34:17 +1000 From: John Mackin Message-Id: <199505270534.PAA03656@cortex.physiol.su.oz.au> To: phk@ref.tfs.com, terry@cs.weber.edu Subject: Re: Drivers for FORE systems cards under FreeBSD Cc: announce@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, hasty@netcom.com, imb@scgt.oz.au, julian@ref.tfs.com, pss@fore.com, rv@fore.com Sender: announce-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For the second and hopefully last time, PLEASE take the announce list out of the headers with this stuff!!! Thanks.