From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 06:42:19 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id GAA26492 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 06:42:19 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id GAA26486 for ; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 06:42:16 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA27424; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 09:44:13 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509241344.JAA27424@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Linux emulator and AT&T's KSH93 To: freebsd-hackers@frebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 09:44:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1077 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Just for grins -- I downloaded the AT&T ksh93 for Linux and ran it on FreeBSD-stable. In addition to the shared libraries being a bad match (the ones I found in my Slackware weren't any good either)... I picked up the following error from the system. If this is the only thing missing from the Linux emulator -- we're doing pretty well. How about a linux-emulator mailing list? Any support for ELF being considered. (I'd love to run the Caldera desktop on FreeBSD). Sep 24 09:27:47 i4got /kernel: Linux-emul(262): syslog() not supported (BSD sigreturn) Sep 24 09:28:13 i4got last message repeated 3 times Sep 24 09:28:44 i4got /kernel: Linux-emul(270): syslog() not supported (BSD sigreturn) Sep 24 09:28:54 i4got last message repeated 2 times Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 14:13:30 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id OAA14556 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:13:30 -0700 Received: from grunt.grondar.za (grunt.grondar.za [196.7.18.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA14549 for ; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:13:15 -0700 Received: from grumble.grondar.za (grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by grunt.grondar.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA08564; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 23:12:54 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01462; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 23:12:53 +0200 Message-Id: <199509242112.XAA01462@grumble.grondar.za> X-Authentication-Warning: grumble.grondar.za: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), mark@grondar.za, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/x11/xneko xneko.c Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 23:12:52 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk [taken to chat] > > And if you just want a cute demo...well, xneko maybe, but xroach is > > nothing short of "disgusting". :< > > HEY, xroach RULES, D00D!! Take that Vic-20 of the net, you horrible little man... ;-) > P.S. No, really! It still remains my favorite x client application of > all time. Say nice things about xroach! :) ]:-> Yeah! It remains my favourite source of screams. It gets a girlfriend of mine every time.... M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grumble.grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 16:42:46 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id QAA22007 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 16:42:46 -0700 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA22000 for ; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 16:42:43 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA02720; Sun, 24 Sep 1995 16:41:58 -0700 To: Mark Murray cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/x11/xneko xneko.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Sep 1995 23:12:52 +0200." <199509242112.XAA01462@grumble.grondar.za> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 16:41:58 -0700 Message-ID: <2718.811986118@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > HEY, xroach RULES, D00D!! > > Take that Vic-20 of the net, you horrible little man... YUR JUST JELOS CAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A VIC!!! Comod0re 4ever! Atari sucks!!!!! [there, was that `biffy' enough for you?] :-) > Yeah! It remains my favourite source of screams. It gets a girlfriend of > mine every time.... Is *that* how you explain the screams to your mother! Clever lad! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 00:48:08 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id AAA04718 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 00:48:08 -0700 Received: (from sos@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id AAA04710 ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 00:48:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199509250748.AAA04710@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Linux emulator and AT&T's KSH93 To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 00:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@frebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509241345.JAA27446@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Sep 24, 95 09:44:12 am From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 820 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Bill/Carolyn Pechter who wrote: > > Just for grins -- I downloaded the AT&T ksh93 for Linux and ran it on > FreeBSD-stable. > > In addition to the shared libraries being a bad match (the ones I found > in my Slackware weren't any good either)... > > I picked up the following error from the system. > > If this is the only thing missing from the Linux emulator -- we're doing > pretty well. > > How about a linux-emulator mailing list? Any support for ELF being considered. Yes I have been looking at that, as soon as I can get my hand on an ELF based Linux ditribution I'll put in the extra hooks.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org | sos@login.dknet.dk) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 17:48:40 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id RAA02255 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:48:40 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA02247 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:48:31 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12272; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:50:27 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:50:27 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509260050.SAA12272@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix and the desktop ( was Re: ports startup scripts) In-Reply-To: <199509252346.QAA06224@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509252249.QAA11885@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199509252346.QAA06224@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > [ ... the desktop ... ] > > > In any case, it *is* lost by all accounts, and trying to win it back > > with FreeBSD is futile. > > You can't lose what you never had. You presume (incorrectly) that there > was ever an attempt by UNIX to own the desktop, that this mythical attempt > failed, and that the desktop is thus "lost". Hmm, seems SCO *attempted* to win the desktop. Their *actual* (vs. mythical) attempt failed. As a matter of fact, the name of the product was called "Open Desktop" perchance. ;) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 17:53:49 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id RAA02477 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:53:49 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA02465 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:53:39 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12300; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:55:35 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:55:35 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509260055.SAA12300@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports startup scripts In-Reply-To: <199509260031.RAA06329@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509252309.RAA12073@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199509260031.RAA06329@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk { Moved to -chat } > > Your way requires change (ie; more work), while Sean is arguing for the > > less work case. The average FreeBSD user won't gain anything with the > > change (asserting that the Desktop is lost), so why give ourselves more > > work being different just to be different? > > Why does having a utility to adminster the system imply "desktop! desktop" > in your mind? > > Because it's usable by desktop-level people? Huh? What does the init stuff have to do with the desktop? Sean is arguing that by adding the extra complexity to init you aren't buying anything for the normal user. His arguement is backed by the fact that the average user is competent b/c Unix lost/doesn't have/never had/couldn't have/would like to have but didn't stand a chance on the desktop. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 18:38:52 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id SAA03408 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:38:52 -0700 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id SAA03403 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:38:48 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA06459; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:33:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199509260133.SAA06459@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Unix and the desktop ( was Re: ports startup scripts) To: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:33:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@rocky.sri.MT.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199509260050.SAA12272@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 25, 95 06:50:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2449 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > > You can't lose what you never had. You presume (incorrectly) that there > > was ever an attempt by UNIX to own the desktop, that this mythical attempt > > failed, and that the desktop is thus "lost". > > Hmm, seems SCO *attempted* to win the desktop. Their *actual* > (vs. mythical) attempt failed. As a matter of fact, the name of the > product was called "Open Desktop" perchance. ;) SCO did not try to win the desktop. You can't win the destop by replacing a contender (Xenix) with a piece of crap (SVR3). I would be very suprised, given the large Microsoft ownership of SCO, if SCO did not take a dive on that one, if I didn't know for a fact that they shot themselves in the foot in an attempt to capture government $$$. I used Alpha and Beta ODT on Xenix before SVR3 was forced down SCO's throat by the Desktop III and AFCAC 451 contract bids by their Federal Systems Division on the basis of SVID requirements as CLIN's on the Request For Bids. It was usable. At the time, the fastest hardware you could get was an Everex Step/20. After the switch to SVR3, SCO was unusable, period, let alone for running ODT on barely-sufficient-under-Xenix-hardware. I also attended the 1989 SCO Developer conference in Santa Cruz on the UCSC campus (not my first time at the conference) and argued long and hard with Doug Michaels and a number of other vendors on "the appearance of speed" with regard to delaying client EXPOSE events until the window manager had processed them to completion instead of having the client and window manager competing to be swapped in and running simultaneously. Better to have a window manager that looks fast and a client that looks fast than having both of them look slow. The only person on my side at the time was a graphics board vendor, who used fiber-optic lines out to display/keyboard units (I forget the vendor name). We had software on both Desktop III and AFCAC 451 bids for all vendors that were bidding SCO. We were the only package that met full CLIN's, mostly because everyone else ignored performance and user interface issues (SCO still lost). I categorically *DENY* that SCO *ever* made a *serious* attempt at the desktop market. They compromised their position very early on in order to compete on Federal contracts that never worked out. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 18:41:35 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id SAA03498 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:41:35 -0700 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id SAA03483 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:41:27 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA06487; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:38:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199509260138.SAA06487@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports startup scripts To: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:38:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@rocky.sri.MT.net, kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199509260055.SAA12300@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 25, 95 06:55:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 720 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > Huh? What does the init stuff have to do with the desktop? Sean is > arguing that by adding the extra complexity to init you aren't buying > anything for the normal user. His arguement is backed by the fact that > the average user is competent b/c Unix lost/doesn't have/never > had/couldn't have/would like to have but didn't stand a chance on the > desktop. :) The argument relies on the fact that a normal user doesn't use the administrative utilities, but edits the files instead. An easy argument to make, with no administrative utilities present, but not a valid one. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 20:15:44 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id UAA07653 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:15:44 -0700 Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA07645 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:15:39 -0700 Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA01766; Tue, 26 Sep 95 03:15:06 GMT Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.38.193.4/SMI-4.1 (1.38.193.4)) id AA11966; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:15:04 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:15:04 -0600 From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Message-Id: <9509260315.AA11966@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> To: nate@rocky.sri.mt.net Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@rocky.sri.mt.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509260055.SAA12300@rocky.sri.MT.net> (message from Nate Williams on Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:55:35 -0600) Subject: Re: ports startup scripts Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Nate" == Nate Williams writes: Nate> Huh? What does the init stuff have to do with the desktop? Nate> Sean is arguing that by adding the extra complexity to init Nate> you aren't buying anything for the normal user. His Nate> arguement is backed by the fact that the average user is Nate> competent b/c Unix lost/doesn't have/never had/couldn't Nate> have/would like to have but didn't stand a chance on the Nate> desktop. :) Yeah! That's what I meant! (Thanks, Nate :-) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, the gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." -- Jack Handey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 20:47:49 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id UAA09116 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:47:49 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA09106 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:47:42 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA12578; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:49:43 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:49:43 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509260349.VAA12578@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports startup scripts In-Reply-To: <199509260138.SAA06487@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509260055.SAA12300@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199509260138.SAA06487@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > > Huh? What does the init stuff have to do with the desktop? Sean is > > arguing that by adding the extra complexity to init you aren't buying > > anything for the normal user. His arguement is backed by the fact that > > the average user is competent b/c Unix lost/doesn't have/never > > had/couldn't have/would like to have but didn't stand a chance on the > > desktop. :) > > The argument relies on the fact that a normal user doesn't use the > administrative utilities, but edits the files instead. Sure it is, given what I consider to be a normal user. > An easy argument to make, with no administrative utilities present, but > not a valid one. Until decent administrative utilities are present, it will continue to be a requirement of a 'normal' user. Don't put the cart before the horse. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 20:52:58 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id UAA09456 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:52:58 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA09436 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:52:48 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA12583; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:54:45 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:54:45 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509260354.VAA12583@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix and the desktop ( was Re: ports startup scripts) In-Reply-To: <199509260133.SAA06459@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509260050.SAA12272@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199509260133.SAA06459@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > SCO did not try to win the desktop. You can't win the destop by replacing > a contender (Xenix) with a piece of crap (SVR3). That's an opinion I doubt the management of SCO would agree with. [ Xenix usability vs. ODT ] > After the switch to SVR3, SCO was unusable, period, let alone for running > ODT on barely-sufficient-under-Xenix-hardware. Hmm, this sounds *alot* like what a large # of unix vendors did. SunOS -> Slowlaris Xenix -> ODT SVR3 -> SVR4 Ultrix -> OSF/1 (now Digital Unix) Unfortunately, moving from a small/robust OS to a more featureful but slower (and often more buggy) OS isn't considered a 'bad thing' by marketing, but rather instead a step in the right direction. However, this arguement has already degenerate into an opinion war, which I'll no longer participate in. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 10:32:15 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id KAA13744 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:32:15 -0700 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA13734 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:32:10 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA07825; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:28:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199509261728.KAA07825@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports startup scripts To: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:28:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@rocky.sri.MT.net, kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199509260349.VAA12578@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 25, 95 09:49:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 729 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > > An easy argument to make, with no administrative utilities present, but > > not a valid one. > > Until decent administrative utilities are present, it will continue to > be a requirement of a 'normal' user. Don't put the cart before the > horse. The horse is a machine-administratable setup (which is what I'm arguing for) that pulls the tool cart behind it. If I write an administration tool that uses a particular layout, will you modify the layout to conform to the tools needs? That seems to be the only argument that will make the layout the "cart" and the tools the "horse". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 10:39:23 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id KAA14036 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:39:23 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA14031 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:39:19 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA13904; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:41:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:41:13 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509261741.LAA13904@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports startup scripts In-Reply-To: <199509261728.KAA07825@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509260349.VAA12578@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199509261728.KAA07825@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > An easy argument to make, with no administrative utilities present, but > > > not a valid one. > > > > Until decent administrative utilities are present, it will continue to > > be a requirement of a 'normal' user. Don't put the cart before the > > horse. > > The horse is a machine-administratable setup (which is what I'm arguing > for) that pulls the tool cart behind it. I disagree. As we have seen time and time again in FreeBSD, even after the framework in place for automatic tools, the automatic tools never materialize. So, we've changed the system for no apparent reason, thus making it different with no gain. Also, will the tool work on text and graphic screens? Will the setup be modifiable w/out the tools? (ie; can I use vi to modify my setup?) > If I write an administration tool that uses a particular layout, will > you modify the layout to conform to the tools needs? That seems to be > the only argument that will make the layout the "cart" and the tools > the "horse". Show me a sample frame-work which can do all of the above, and then I think discussions about changing the framework is more appropriate. I contend we don't have an acceptable technology for even building the toolset framework yet. That's what I meant when I said you were putting the cart before the horse. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 01:55:01 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id BAA08212 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 01:55:01 -0700 Received: from Relay1.Austria.EU.net (relay1.Austria.EU.net [192.92.138.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA08203 ; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 01:54:54 -0700 From: marino.ladavac@aut.alcatel.at Received: from aut.alcatel.at (dnisun.aut.alcatel.at) by Relay1.Austria.EU.net with SMTP id AA15224 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:54:33 +0100 Received: from atuhc16 by aut.alcatel.at (4.1/SMI-4.1/AAA-1.29/main) id AA15774; Thu, 28 Sep 95 09:51:17 +0100 Message-Id: <9509280851.AA15774@atuhc16.aut.alcatel.at> Received: by atuhc16 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA11826; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:54:50 +0100 Subject: Re: kernel versions and config's rm -rf To: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 9:54:49 MET Cc: current@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509271731.KAA04660@GndRsh.aac.dev.com>; from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Sep 27, 95 10:31 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > > On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > > > It seems that Rodney W. Grimes said: > > > > Make that three old farts in agreement :-)... > > > > > > Hey, I'm 28. May I qualify please ? :-) > > > > no way, you got to be over 30 and understand the monty python > > reference 'every byte is sacred' (used by comms people) > The qualification criteria I usually use for classifying someone as > an ``old fart'' in the computer science field is that they studied > coincidence current magnetic storage technology while attending school > (for those in the newer age, this is known as ``core'' memory :-)). > This generally places the age bracket around 30 to 40 years depending on > how early the person started to study computers in there life. It pretty > much rules out anyone under the age of thirty, so your criteria holds :-). Not necessarily :) Some of us, third worlders, have been studying core storage, and actually used the Half Noon IBM's at college, although being younger than 30. (half noon is, of course 1130 :) Keypunches anyone? /Alby P.S. 'every byte is sacred' reference takes place in "Third World," doesn't it? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 05:29:16 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id FAA12302 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 05:29:16 -0700 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.Atinc.COM [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id FAA12297 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 05:29:10 -0700 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id IAA03531; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:14:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:14:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: kernel versions and config's rm -rf To: marino.ladavac@aut.alcatel.at cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9509280851.AA15774@atuhc16.aut.alcatel.at> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 1995 marino.ladavac@aut.alcatel.at wrote: > P.S. 'every byte is sacred' reference takes place in "Third World," > doesn't it? no, not unless you consider ireland to be third world. sorry. thank you for playing. > > Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 14:49:51 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id OAA03422 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:49:51 -0700 Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA03381 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:49:41 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA26493; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:49:12 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA01274; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:49:12 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA29923; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:27:05 +0100 From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199509282127.WAA29923@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: kernel versions and config's rm -rf To: marino.ladavac@aut.alcatel.at Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:27:05 +0100 (MET) Cc: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <9509280851.AA15774@atuhc16.aut.alcatel.at> from "marino.ladavac@aut.alcatel.at" at Sep 28, 95 09:54:49 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 548 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk As marino.ladavac@aut.alcatel.at wrote: > > Keypunches anyone? I don't like keypunches. But i could offer a papertape with one of the famous "moon landing" programs, written in BASIC on an early proprietary minicomputer. Does this also count? Or i've still got core memory. "Modern" core's. Each core in an 18-pin DIP. 12 of them on a PCB (in other words: one word with a width of 12 bits). :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 22:27:28 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id WAA21522 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:27:28 -0700 Received: from trepan.io.org (taob@trepan.io.org [198.133.36.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA21515 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:27:24 -0700 Received: (from taob@localhost) by trepan.io.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) id BAA16808; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 01:27:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 01:26:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/x11/xneko xneko.c In-Reply-To: <2718.811986118@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Sep 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > YUR JUST JELOS CAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A VIC!!! Comod0re 4ever! Atari > sucks!!!!! > > [there, was that `biffy' enough for you?] :-) _ |\|(_) \\/4`/, |)00d... |\|4\\/t '733t 3|\|(_|ff!!!@!!@!! -- Brian Tao System Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 14:34:59 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id OAA03816 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:34:59 -0700 Received: from oasis.txdirect.net (oasis.txdirect.net [204.57.120.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA03809 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:34:53 -0700 Received: (from rsnow@localhost) by oasis.txdirect.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA12372; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:34:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:34:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Rob Snow X-Sender: rsnow@oasis To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Why does this make me smile? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk I saw this in comp.sys.intel and I'm not sure why, but it made me smile. Is it because Intel is going to be helping to push UNIX on x86? Or, because Intel and Microsoft are having a spat? ############# BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE ############ The Pentium 150 will be released in Jan. 96 Only. Technical problems with P6 CPUs as well.Intel is unable to produce the SMP version of the P6. No multi-processor P6 till Mid,96. (Orion chipset/Mb problems) And SunSofts SOLARIS to be the OS of choice for the Pentium Pro (P6) CPUs. Intel is working with SUN to optimize Solaris for P6 and will be pushing this. (Oracle too is said to be porting for this environment) (this is said to be in retaliation against MicroSoft for porting NT to Alpha/Power PC and for Not supporting NSP) (Sources: Various Trade Journals/publications) ############### END FORWARDED MESSAGE ############### ______________________________________________________________________ Rob Snow Powered by FreeBSD rsnow@txdirect.net http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 15:49:20 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id PAA06252 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:49:20 -0700 Received: from chrome.jdl.com (chrome.onramp.net [199.1.166.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id PAA06247 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:49:16 -0700 Received: from localhost.jdl.com (localhost.jdl.com [127.0.0.1]) by chrome.jdl.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA18062; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 17:46:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199509292246.RAA18062@chrome.jdl.com> X-Authentication-Warning: chrome.jdl.com: Host localhost.jdl.com didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: deborah@gallifrey.microunity.com (Deborah Gronke Bennett), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: spl'ing to a specific interrupt level In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:26:49 PDT." <199509292226.PAA15486@phaeton.artisoft.com> Reply-To: jdl@chromatic.com Clarity-Index: null Threat-Level: none Software-Engineering-Dead-Seriousness: There's no excuse for unreadable code. Net-thought: If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your Kill file. Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 17:46:30 -0500 From: Jon Loeliger Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Apparently, Terry Lambert scribbled: > Deborah started with: > > UNIX is a trademark of whoever bought it this week . . . > > SCO, owned by Novell and Microsoft. Please! Don't say it like that. It sounds so, .... ugly.... jdl