From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 09:35:01 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id JAA16329 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:35:01 -0800 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.Atinc.COM [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA16318 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:34:57 -0800 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id MAA13334; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:25:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:25:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns To: current@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 Nov 1995 owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org wrote: > I have been having a lot of contact with various local ISPs (we seem > to have an excessive number of these guys in this area). All of them > are aware of FreeBSD, but almost universally there is a frame of mind > that says FreeBSD should be avoided. [disclaimers: i dont run an isp. i dont have a LARGE news system. i dont have lots of dialin users. ] these points|perceptions are important. XXX has evidently talked with a number of isp's and expended some effort to identify the characteristics of FreeBSD that isp's free are most lacking. let's call it a call-for-dialog. freebsd-isp@freebsd.org can provide the forum. from the initial post and the responses, i gather 0. more dialog between isp's and the freebsd development team. 1. there is a desperate need for additional documentation of the tutorial + example form 2. we need suggested configurations for specific tasks: news spool, dial-in box, web server.... 3. problem reports need to provide information on how to reproduce the problem. system configuration. system activity. log file output. 4. isp's need to be willing to test bug fixes Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 10:37:52 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id KAA18502 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:37:52 -0800 Received: from localhost.lightside.com (user47.lightside.com [198.81.209.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA18484 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:37:44 -0800 Received: (from jehamby@localhost) by localhost.lightside.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA00453; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:39:36 -0800 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:39:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@localhost To: Peter Dufault cc: current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-Reply-To: <199511121350.IAA00279@hda.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Peter Dufault wrote: > > > > 1. A concern that FreeBSD tends to "bind" for brief periods when > > loaded... > > Can this is an IDE issue? I never saw anything like this until > I configured an IDE mail server. That system pauses for seconds > sometimes, and then continues. This is running -stable, syscons > only (no X), no messages logged, etc. The echo stops going to > the display, the ethernet activity is stopped, all in all it seems > to be locked up for three or four seconds. > > We have three SCSI only systems and haven't ever seen this, and > one IDE system that pauses. On my system at home (486DX4/100, 850MB Western Digital IDE, VLB IDE controller, 24MB RAM) the system does seem to freeze up for as much as 5 seconds when I start up a large process such as Netscape or cause one of the existing processes to greatly expand their RAM usage (for example, looking through the 1000 messages that sometimes accumulate in my INBOX using pine, or loading a large number of pictures into XV). I think it's a problem with the VM code swapping pages to disk, and the IDE driver using up a large percentage of CPU doing PIO transfers instead of DMA transfers that an EIDE driver (such as the one in Linux?) would be able to do. I know, I know, IDE sucks, but a large number of users (and hopefully, a very SMALL number of ISP's use it) and so any improvement to the IDE driver to add EIDE support, especially DMA transfers, would speed things up nicely. I know someone was working on this, has it made its way into -current yet? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jake Hamby | E-Mail: jehamby@lightside.com Student, Cal Poly University, Pomona | System Administrator, JPL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 11:00:04 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA18854 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:00:04 -0800 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA18849 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:00:01 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA16520; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:59:31 -0800 To: Jake Hamby cc: Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:39:36 PST." Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:59:30 -0800 Message-ID: <16518.816202770@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > On my system at home (486DX4/100, 850MB Western Digital IDE, VLB IDE > controller, 24MB RAM) the system does seem to freeze up for as much as 5 > seconds when I start up a large process such as Netscape or cause one of > the existing processes to greatly expand their RAM usage (for example, > looking through the 1000 messages that sometimes accumulate in my INBOX > using pine, or loading a large number of pictures into XV). I think it's Huh. Well, all I can say is that this definitely points at IDE because I can't reproduce it at all, and that includes starting the most bloated netscape v2.0b1 binaries, systems like KCL and other notorious memory hogs. I also know that our IDE driver isn't exactly likely to win land records for speed - it's one of those icky parts of the system that nobody really wanted to work on once it got to a state where it was fairly bulletproof. I also agree with Jake - if there's an ISP using IDE CDROM drives out there for anything then they should donate those drives to charity just as fast as they can rip them out of the machines and buy SCSI drives. I was helping an ISP recently who had several machines that I was horrified to learn had IDE drives in them. The systems were not performing very well under heavy load, and he called me in to try and figure out why. The very first thing I did was threaten to come back with a ball peen hammer and do extreme violence to any IDE drives I found lurking in any machines on the premises, and he hastily yanked them out (I'm not sure he knew whether or not I was joking, and frankly neither did I :-). Since then, his systems have been just champing along. He's very happy. Jordan From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 11:10:59 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA19256 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:10:59 -0800 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA19248 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:10:56 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA16613; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:10:33 -0800 To: Jake Hamby , Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:59:30 PST." <16518.816202770@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:10:33 -0800 Message-ID: <16610.816203433@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > I also agree with Jake - if there's an ISP using IDE CDROM drives out ^^^^^ Argh! Disks I mean, disks! Sorry, I've been fooling with the IDE CDROM install for the last 24 hours, so I've got IDE CDROM drives on the brain! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 11:21:23 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA19479 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:21:23 -0800 Received: from user47.lightside.com (user39.lightside.com [198.81.209.39]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA19457 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:21:17 -0800 Received: (from jehamby@localhost) by user47.lightside.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA00584; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:23:12 -0800 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:22:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-Reply-To: <16610.816203433@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I also agree with Jake - if there's an ISP using IDE CDROM drives out > ^^^^^ > Argh! Disks I mean, disks! > > Sorry, I've been fooling with the IDE CDROM install for the last > 24 hours, so I've got IDE CDROM drives on the brain! :-) > > Jordan Well, IDE CDROM's too! :-) Here's a question: I would really like to upgrade to SCSI, but the controller cards are so damn expensive! Are there any good VLB (I know, I wish I had a PCI motherboard, but VLB is what I've got) SCSI-2 controllers that don't cost $200 or more?? I hear Buslogic and Adaptec make decent VLB controllers, can anyone point me in the right direction for a company that sells good SCSI controllers at decent prices? Thanks! BTW, I bought one of those Iomega Zip drives a month ago, and they are really impressive! I flat-out refused to buy the parallel port version (a "standard", and I use the term loosely, even worse than IDE, IMO) so now I have this awesome removable 100MB disk system, and no SCSI controller to plug it into. So I did the next best thing and plugged it into my old 1990-vintage Amiga 500 (GVP Series II SCSI controller) and it's working great (sure faster than the old 50MB [not 500MB!] Quantum LPS that's also in there)! Just goes to show you how the benefits of SCSI can revitalize any old machine... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jake Hamby | E-Mail: jehamby@lightside.com Student, Cal Poly University, Pomona | System Administrator, JPL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 11:24:52 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA20095 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:24:52 -0800 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.Atinc.COM [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA20037 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:24:38 -0800 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id OAA18129; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:15:03 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:14:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jake Hamby , Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16518.816202770@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk sounds like we have the first entry in an document here. 1. Trash all IDE devices--or expect piss-poor performance. Suck is the nature of IDE drives: little or no cache, poor seek times (numbers needed) ... 2. Get SCSI devices. why? normally 256kB cache or more command chaining low interrupt load ... whoever wrote the ide driver and scsi drivers knows this inside and out. how about writing a one page explaination? On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > On my system at home (486DX4/100, 850MB Western Digital IDE, VLB IDE > > controller, 24MB RAM) the system does seem to freeze up for as much as 5 > > seconds when I start up a large process such as Netscape or cause one of > > the existing processes to greatly expand their RAM usage (for example, > > looking through the 1000 messages that sometimes accumulate in my INBOX > > using pine, or loading a large number of pictures into XV). I think it's > > Huh. Well, all I can say is that this definitely points at IDE > because I can't reproduce it at all, and that includes starting the > most bloated netscape v2.0b1 binaries, systems like KCL and other > notorious memory hogs. I also know that our IDE driver isn't exactly > likely to win land records for speed - it's one of those icky parts of > the system that nobody really wanted to work on once it got to a state > where it was fairly bulletproof. > > I also agree with Jake - if there's an ISP using IDE CDROM drives out > there for anything then they should donate those drives to charity > just as fast as they can rip them out of the machines and buy SCSI > drives. I was helping an ISP recently who had several machines that I > was horrified to learn had IDE drives in them. The systems were not > performing very well under heavy load, and he called me in to try and > figure out why. The very first thing I did was threaten to come back > with a ball peen hammer and do extreme violence to any IDE drives I > found lurking in any machines on the premises, and he hastily yanked > them out (I'm not sure he knew whether or not I was joking, and > frankly neither did I :-). Since then, his systems have been just > champing along. He's very happy. > > Jordan > Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 11:37:35 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA23274 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:37:35 -0800 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA23260 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:37:31 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA16741; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:37:08 -0800 To: Jake Hamby cc: Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:22:48 PST." Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:37:08 -0800 Message-ID: <16739.816205028@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > Here's a question: I would really like to upgrade to SCSI, but the > controller cards are so damn expensive! Are there any good VLB (I know, > I wish I had a PCI motherboard, but VLB is what I've got) SCSI-2 > controllers that don't cost $200 or more?? I hear Buslogic and Adaptec > make decent VLB controllers, can anyone point me in the right direction > for a company that sells good SCSI controllers at decent prices? Thanks! Where are you? I have an older Bt445C controller you can HAVE, just get it out of my sight! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 11:46:43 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA25232 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:46:43 -0800 Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA25213 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:46:37 -0800 Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17209; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:46:13 -0800 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199511121946.LAA17209@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:46:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, dufault@hda.com, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16739.816205028@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 12, 95 11:37:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 826 Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > Here's a question: I would really like to upgrade to SCSI, but the > > controller cards are so damn expensive! Are there any good VLB (I know, > > I wish I had a PCI motherboard, but VLB is what I've got) SCSI-2 > > controllers that don't cost $200 or more?? I hear Buslogic and Adaptec > > make decent VLB controllers, can anyone point me in the right direction > > for a company that sells good SCSI controllers at decent prices? Thanks! > > Where are you? I have an older Bt445C controller you can HAVE, just > get it out of my sight! :-) Damn... and I was going to try and sell him my used one for $100.00, looks like you have a better price :-). -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 12:09:09 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id MAA01373 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:09:09 -0800 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA01359 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:09:07 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA16900; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:08:26 -0800 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: jehamby@lightside.com, dufault@hda.com, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:46:13 PST." <199511121946.LAA17209@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:08:26 -0800 Message-ID: <16898.816206906@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > Here's a question: I would really like to upgrade to SCSI, but the > > > controller cards are so damn expensive! Are there any good VLB (I know, > > > I wish I had a PCI motherboard, but VLB is what I've got) SCSI-2 > > > controllers that don't cost $200 or more?? I hear Buslogic and Adaptec > > > make decent VLB controllers, can anyone point me in the right direction > > > for a company that sells good SCSI controllers at decent prices? Thanks! > > > > Where are you? I have an older Bt445C controller you can HAVE, just > > get it out of my sight! :-) > > Damn... and I was going to try and sell him my used one for $100.00, looks > like you have a better price :-). Well, I'm still going to make him pay the shipping.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 13:43:32 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id NAA26306 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:43:32 -0800 Received: from poe.b2.org (poe.b2.org [206.55.128.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA26252 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:43:24 -0800 Received: (from mlh@localhost) by poe.b2.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA25877; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:42:48 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 16:42:48 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Hendrick To: Jake Hamby cc: Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Jake Hamby wrote: > > > 1. A concern that FreeBSD tends to "bind" for brief periods when > > > loaded... > > We have three SCSI only systems and haven't ever seen this, and > > one IDE system that pauses. > On my system at home (486DX4/100, 850MB Western Digital IDE, VLB IDE > controller, 24MB RAM) the system does seem to freeze up for as much as 5 > seconds when I start up a large process such as Netscape or cause one of When I had IDE drives, this would also happen quite frequently under Linux, so I would guess a timing problem of some sort with the IDE controller, not specific to FreeBSD. -- mlh@b2.org (Michael Hendrick) From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 21:31:24 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA18538 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:31:24 -0800 Received: from localhost.lightside.com (user59.lightside.com [198.81.209.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA18502 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:31:18 -0800 Received: (from jehamby@localhost) by localhost.lightside.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA00258; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:32:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@localhost To: Michael Hendrick cc: Peter Dufault , current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Michael Hendrick wrote: > > On my system at home (486DX4/100, 850MB Western Digital IDE, VLB IDE > > controller, 24MB RAM) the system does seem to freeze up for as much as 5 > > seconds when I start up a large process such as Netscape or cause one of > > When I had IDE drives, this would also happen quite frequently under > Linux, so I would guess a timing problem of some sort with the IDE > controller, not specific to FreeBSD. Perhaps this is the reason behind the common observation that "Linux freezes to a crawl when it starts swapping to disk." I was told this was one big advantage of FreeBSD. Somehow, I'm starting to think that both OS's have this problem, but perhaps this is less noticed under FreeBSD due to: 1) Different paging algorithms between FreeBSD and Linux (?) 2) More Linux users use IDE; more FreeBSD users use SCSI. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jake Hamby | E-Mail: jehamby@lightside.com Student, Cal Poly University, Pomona | System Administrator, JPL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Nov 12 23:40:18 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id XAA14114 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 23:40:18 -0800 Received: (from dyson@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id XAA14060 ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 23:40:08 -0800 From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199511130740.XAA14060@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns To: jehamby@lightside.com (Jake Hamby) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 23:40:07 -0800 (PST) Cc: mlh@poe.b2.org, dufault@hda.com, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jake Hamby" at Nov 12, 95 09:31:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1425 Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > Perhaps this is the reason behind the common observation that "Linux > freezes to a crawl when it starts swapping to disk." I was told this was > one big advantage of FreeBSD. Somehow, I'm starting to think that both > OS's have this problem, but perhaps this is less noticed under FreeBSD > due to: > > 1) Different paging algorithms between FreeBSD and Linux (?) > 2) More Linux users use IDE; more FreeBSD users use SCSI. > The paging algorithms on both stable versions of Linux and versions through 1.3.20 (the last one that I tested) are much slower than FreeBSD.. Also, sequential I/O is slower on EXT2FS. The problem that has been seen with FreeBSD with directory lookups is due to several items, the biggest is the limited number of vnodes that FreeBSD can cache. I am actively looking at it, quantifying the problem. The benchmarks that Joe Greco has shown us actually demonstrates a worst case clash with the name/vnode caching. It *does* represent a problem and if the files are opened in the inverse order with my new async changes, it runs MUCH faster. I am NOT belittling the problem, just trying to explain that the problem is being worked and studied. The problem with going to sleep is probably due to the 30 second sync interval and all of the modified vnodes (creation, modification, usage) times and other things like that. I have been looking at that also. John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-isp Mon Nov 13 02:03:58 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id CAA18794 for isp-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 02:03:58 -0800 Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id CAA18742 ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 02:03:44 -0800 Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id EAA04088; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 04:03:38 -0600 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 04:03:35 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: current@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP state their FreeBSD concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > these points|perceptions are important. XXX has evidently talked > with a number of isp's and expended some effort to identify the > characteristics of FreeBSD that isp's free are most lacking. let's call > it a call-for-dialog. freebsd-isp@freebsd.org can provide the forum. > > from the initial post and the responses, i gather > > 0. more dialog between isp's and the freebsd development team. I'm not going to say anything until 2.1 comes out. At that point we will be able to make a distinction betweent our kludges and freebsd problems. I think that if everything is examined you will find that most things people want are packaging. FreeBSD allows me to do just about everything, however, for a good deal of it, I had to actually figure something out. (I rather prefer this method, but for turnkey solutions, this isn't going to work) How much time does FreeBSD project want to sink in making this happen (I'm very impressed with the package management stuff so far. Its really nice to be able to get the base os and utils installed in 45 minutes.) > 1. there is a desperate need for additional documentation of the > tutorial + example form > > 2. we need suggested configurations for specific tasks: news spool, > dial-in box, web server.... This really will depend on what software packages are going to be used. I think a better topic would be high end hardware configurations. (what disk, scsi cards, motherboards etc...) Of course this is a bigger project. :) > 3. problem reports need to provide information on how to reproduce > the problem. system configuration. system activity. log file > output. Thats only natural. > 4. isp's need to be willing to test bug fixes Well, I'm not going to test stuff on production hardware, but I do have machines that are for that express purpose. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-isp Mon Nov 13 08:41:06 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id IAA09203 for isp-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 08:41:06 -0800 Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id IAA09195 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 08:41:02 -0800 Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA00820; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:41:00 -0600 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:40:59 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: anon public_ftp Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk I just got done hacking amd(8) to pieces in order to implement "public_ftp" for users. This allows me to give users an ftp area on our server, but keep the files in their homedir so it will apply toward their quota. My modifications are quite nasty and involve hardcoding some stuff into amd(8). I was wondering how others had solved this problem. My solution appears to work quite well, but I'm always open to different approaches. Thanks, and have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-isp Tue Nov 14 12:38:40 1995 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id MAA11236 for isp-outgoing; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:38:40 -0800 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.Atinc.COM [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA11202 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:38:19 -0800 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id PAA04724; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:27:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:27:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Multiple http servers - howto ? (fwd) To: isp@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk would one of you write up a procedure for this. i would be the first entry in the isp faq that i have promised to produce.....from your input ;) come on guys.....someone must be doing this. dont need a 100% solution. general success will be a great starting point. jmb Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 > > > > #1. Via DNS. The requesting hosts are rotored through a list of the > > > > addresses. > > > > > > > > It isn't a very good scheme, mostly because caching exists. > > > > > > Which is why you lower the TTL :-) or maybe just not worry about it, > > > because when you start examining the Bigger Picture, you realize that a site > > > large enough to require multiple servers is receiving zillions of requests, > > > and different data will be cached by each domain server, still effectively > > > spreading the load over multiple servers. > > > > *My* cache doesn't have to honor *your* TTL. In fact, if my provider > > is Sprint or one of serval others, it *won't* honor your TTL. > > If you are using Sprint for domain service, I pity you. Nevertheless, the > TTL only assists in randomization. > > > You're still doing round-robin address assignment, which expects that > > clients will behave statistically identical to one another. And they > > won't, even if the TTL is honored. > > Somebody else who doesn't really understand that when N is a random function > that may not be random for small values of x, still is random enough for > large values of x.... :-) > > The TTL hack simply reduces the definition of "may not be random for small > values of x". > > If you are trying to tell me that if I have 4 addresses and 5,000 sites do > a DNS lookup on me, I will state that at least 1,000 sites will get assigned > to each address. That does not imply that the loading will be identical or > totally equal, but it should be reasonably distributed. I may not care if > the distribution is 1000/1000/1000/2000, because it is still better than > 5000 against a single box - and I would bet that it would be more evenly > distributed than I am suggesting, most of the time. > > For smaller cases, you don't care because you don't need multiple server > platforms to begin with. > > > > The case where you might lose is if a hundred workstations at the same site > > > suddenly decide to all run Netscape on a particular URL at once, all hundred > > > workstations receive the same cached answer from the local domain server, > > > and they proceed to pound the box into oblivion. This is the "University > > > Intro to CS class" problem. It's worse if they are pounding on your news > > > server :-( which HAS happened to me. > > > > Or one of several server boxes with 40 X terminals hanging off it. > > Both of which are cases where the sample size "x" isn't large enough (well, > of course, in the case of the news server, there was only one news server). Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346